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March 21, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:26:42
IS MY WIFE INSANE? Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
My friend who listens to your show often recommended me to talk to you.
I've seen videos and read your book.
I'm stuck on the treadmill of life.
My wife got pregnant while we were 18 with my son.
We got married and life has been hard ever since.
I'm in my early 30s, 5'10", dark hair, blue eyes, fiend lit build, young looking.
I feel like a pathetic loser and single father.
I know I'll be bitter forever, but can't bring myself to finally leave her.
None of my family or friends know other than one friend.
Talk to lawyers.
All of her friends, family, and clients know.
I see them and am ashamed.
I have the lowest self-respect ever.
She has been berating me for years.
She will let me lead in any aspect.
I have no frame.
Why am I like this?
Do I think I had my shot so now I need to take care of my sons?
I don't want to see my kids half as often?
Is it because I've never been with another girl?
Do I worry about her finding a new man?
Or I won't find a new girl?
How can I look at my sons in the eye and tell them I wasn't strong enough to do what I recommend for them?
She says she loves me.
I love her.
But this seems really unhealthy.
Where is my masculine desire to leave?
Am I the problem?
Is she?
Does she have BPD?
And yeah, here's the backstory.
So a high school sophomore year, asked my wife to be my girlfriend.
Immediately after that, we broke up.
And it was because she ended up being with her boyfriend and fooling around with her ex.
Time goes by, we start dating.
Our relationship is constant in drama with a rollercoaster of emotions.
We're both jealous of any interaction with the opposite sex.
She got pregnant in junior year, but she miscarried with my son.
We still dated and she gets pregnant by first semester of college, for me, when I was thinking of breaking up with her.
We get married, lived with family for the first while with my son, and then got an apartment.
I had been bouncing around between part-time jobs while going to school.
She started her own company doing aesthetics.
I did poor in school, hadn't grown up and wasn't being a man.
She goes to aesthetic school and we both work in the evenings.
The cycle repeats of me constantly moving to a new job every year only to increase my pay slightly and inching towards my degree.
And she continued with her business.
We ended up having another son.
She had been inappropriately chatting with a friend of ours.
She moves out and tells me we need some time apart and strings me along.
We start going to counseling.
I think we can make it work.
She starts seeing change in me.
I ask her about any cheating that's going on, which she lies about, and I believe she tells me about cheating on me.
I get furious, but we still end up going to counseling.
I basically check out from the relationship and plan for a divorce.
We then find out that she's pregnant again with my third child and decide to try and make it work.
She wants to stop going to counseling but neglects to tell the counselor that she's pregnant.
I move into her apartment and shortly thereafter she has a stillborn birth at 26 weeks.
We buy a house together, fix it up before moving in.
She starts giving off hints that she doesn't think our relationship will work.
She decides to try and make it work, but in order to do so, she needs to tell me the truth.
Truth is, the guy she cheated on me with was actually a friend of ours.
And then she saw him again and kissed him.
She tells me the reason why originally we got back together was only because she was pregnant.
I get upset, sleep away from her, cut ties with multiple friends.
She says she'll do whatever it takes to make it work.
Time goes by.
I get a full-time job and I'm still going to school.
She gets pregnant again.
This ends up being our third son.
She finds out I've been looking at pornography.
She kicks me out of the house and I live with parents.
I move back in eventually, get a full-time salaried position, making more money than I've ever made.
I graduate with a degree.
Last year, shortly before summer, she tells me she wants to get a divorce.
Our relationship is in a constant cycle like this.
I don't try to get a better job.
We don't make enough money.
She thinks she's better off without me.
I try to do my best to become supermen.
I go to counseling and coaching.
I try to become a better father and man.
Work on my career.
Be better in every aspect.
And by this point, I'm checked out from the relationship again.
And we go out to dinner for my birthday.
She said she wants to make it work again.
While thinking and planning, I'm just sitting in limbo, not making a decision.
Things start looking up, relationship is better than ever, closer than ever, spend lots of time together, help each other, tells me she loves me more than ever, cries because our sex is so good.
A few months later, she went to a concert with her girlfriend, got blackout drunk, ended up kissing a random guy in a parking garage, tells me I should leave her, and at the time, I didn't really care.
What's one more time on the record?
And yeah, I've been consuming red pill content over the past year and a half.
I'm trying to be a stronger and better man.
We just recently found out our toddler is autistic and therapy and school for him is extremely expensive.
And we talk.
She has been a lot better lately.
She says she still loves me.
However, I did end up contacting a lawyer.
Yeah, that's my story in a nutshell.
And what a tale it is, my friend.
My gosh.
Yes. My gosh.
Quite a rollercoaster.
Right, right.
So where do you stand since you sent me the message?
I mean, even composing a message like that can have a big effect on what you think.
So where do you stand about things at the moment?
Yeah, so...
I agree fully with what you said.
Really writing it all out put lots into perspective.
And yeah, our relationship is totally fine.
There's no drama currently, right?
But I just have these thoughts in the back of my mind.
And I've always kind of said that our relationship can never be 100% because of the cheating.
Even if we were the perfect individuals and had the perfect relationship, our relationship can never reach 100%.
And so, yeah, sometimes I'm just thinking it's not worth it to continue on, I guess.
And I wonder if it would be better for me and sometimes my kids as well if we weren't together.
So, maybe.
It's still a maybe.
Spoiler, I don't know what the answer is, right?
Like we just met and all that, but so right now you're leaning what percentage towards separation?
Oh, maybe like 70% towards separating and then 30% staying, I suppose.
You know, I have some concerns about staying, or sorry, concerns about separating, just like, Seeing my kids have as much and not really sure where that's going to go.
She says that if we were to get a divorce, she'd be pretty amicable about that, but I don't know if that's really going to be the case when it comes down to it.
Just like the safety, I guess, for my children.
Within the past year probably has really separated herself from family like a lot because they are just not good in my opinion.
Tons of drama.
Toxicity there.
And so yeah I feel bad kind of just leaving her high and dry even if maybe I shouldn't.
What were the issues with her family?
Yeah so her parents are divorced.
Her mom is kind of the most selfish person I've ever met.
Extremely narcissistic.
And then her dad was not around much growing up and still isn't around all that much.
Her sisters are kind of crazy.
There was just constant drama all the time growing up with people going to prison and warrants.
Like, lots of fighting and yelling.
There was always anxiety from me going over to any sort of family event just because you never knew what was going to happen, who was going to yell at who, who was going to fight.
And then over COVID, my wife's sister started dating this guy.
And that has been crazy drama.
He actually...
Sorry, who did what?
My wife's sister started dating a guy back during COVID.
And he's like, bad news?
Yeah, so he went to prison actually for raping an underage girl.
Good lord.
And he got out.
Like, I don't know the circumstances.
I don't understand why someone like that would be able to get out.
But anyway, the sister started dating him.
And my wife did actually lie to me a tad bit about him.
Because... The sister was cheating on her husband with this guy, ends up leaving her husband, and they start dating, and he comes around.
But we didn't know at the time he was a criminal or anything like that.
But your wife knew, right?
No, none of us knew.
None of us knew.
Okay. Oh, the sister lied.
Yeah, she knew.
Sure. I don't even know if she knew, actually.
Okay. So what ended up happening is...
My mother-in-law goes over to the house and finds some of his mail, and his mail's in a different name than his actual name.
And so they look into it, my wife and my mother-in-law, and they find out he's a criminal, right?
So he gave a fake name to avoid detection, is that right?
I guess.
I'm not sure if he got his name changed or how that works, but yeah.
The name on his mail was different.
Anyway, he had said some inappropriate things to my wife a few times.
When I had been kicked out, I had talked to him.
He was telling me, I don't think pornography is a big deal at all.
Later on, me and my wife were discussing it when I wasn't living there.
He kind of was just making up stuff, causing drama, lying.
And anyway, he was just bad news.
And because of that, my wife doesn't talk to any of her family anymore because there was just a huge falling out once we found out he was a criminal and everyone's mad at my wife because she kind of exposed him.
Oh, they're mad at your wife?
Yeah. And so her dad and her mom are constantly calling her and asking her please.
Make things right with your sister and come hang out with us.
And I'm like, you do what you want, but me and my kids, you're not taking my kids to hang out with this criminal pedophile guy.
So, I mean, me and the kids are hanging out at home.
You're more than welcome to go do what you want.
But I told her, I don't think that's appropriate.
And she also is like, I did everything I could.
I tried to apologize, but I don't think that's a safe environment.
And yeah, so everyone's like mad at her about it.
And so, yeah, father-in-law had a birthday this past weekend, but we were invited because they were there.
But anyway, so I feel bad about that.
Basically, she had separated herself from all of her family.
And yeah.
Wow. Okay.
And do you know much about her childhood?
Yeah. So, I mean, we dated in high school.
Just being around her family, I can tell you that it was stressful and dramatic, and there was lots of fighting and yelling constantly.
She started drinking and smoking at a young age, and was constantly getting into trouble.
She flunked out of school one year.
Yeah, you know, she's a bit of an odd character, I suppose.
Okay. And let's turn ye olde spotlight on your family.
Sure. Because something got you prepared for this level of nuttiness, right?
Yeah, I guess so.
So yeah, my parents are still together, and I'm actually at...
The house we grew up in right now.
I mean, my dad, he has anger issues.
I think he has multiple personality disorder, maybe.
Bit of a narcissist.
Basically, hasn't had a real job for a long time.
And even when he got one, I think he self-sabotaged himself to get fired on purpose so he didn't have to work.
Lots of yelling.
Dad was the scary one in the house.
And I think that a problem in my relationship that I have is I seek, I think, praise from people because maybe I wasn't praised all that much as a kid.
And so our relationship kind of seems to be...
This is actually something I think you mentioned in a previous episode that I listened to, but she'll tell me how amazing I am, and then later on she's telling me how terrible I am, and so it's a bit of a weird dynamic there,
I suppose.
But yeah, there's nothing too crazy.
I think my dad maybe hit my mom once.
He was addicted to drugs, so that's why he got fired.
He stole drugs as a pharmacist.
Was he a pharmacist or just worked at a pharmacy?
No, he was a pharmacist.
And so, yeah, he ended up getting fired because of that.
And, you know, he was kind of throwing the old pity party and I was just kind of telling him, look, you know, this is your fault.
There's no one to blame but yourself.
And, yeah.
He hasn't had a job since and he doesn't really do anything now.
He just kind of collects on disability and retirement and stuff from other jobs.
And yeah.
Okay. Okay.
And how was it for you growing up?
How many siblings?
I know you have some.
How many siblings do you have?
I have three siblings.
One sister and two brothers.
I'm the oldest.
And yeah, growing up was pretty just normal suburban lifestyle, I think.
We were kind of poor.
Like I said, my dad didn't work for a long time, like most of my childhood.
So we never really had any money, but I mean, you know, we weren't like struggling for food or anything.
Okay, I'm just sorry.
I just need to get a little jack here to get my jaw off the floor.
Okay. Like, holy crap, bro.
You had a normal average childhood?
I guess not.
I mean, my childhood seemed pretty, like, drama-less.
Like, other than, you know, my dad getting mad and yelling every once in a while.
Before I met my girlfriend at the time.
So... Okay, so let's just dig in a little bit further.
What was your mom like as a whole?
Pleasant and nice to everyone she meets, including me.
Okay, and you weren't spanked or yelled at?
I mean, your dad yelled from time to time, but you weren't sort of verbally...
Maybe I was spanked when I was like really little, for sure.
I can't even remember, right?
That's how long ago.
I mean, I don't remember getting spanked after the age of seven.
Okay. And sorry, who's on disability again?
My father.
Right. So your father's a pharmacist who's a drug addict who steals drugs, gets fired, and sits on disability forever.
Sorry. So he was on disability and retirement while...
So during my childhood, he was going to pharmacy school.
He got addicted to pills, became a pharmacist, and stole from the pharmacy after I had already moved out of the house.
Well, at what age did he become addicted to pills?
I am not entirely sure.
Probably while I was in middle school or high school when he wasn't working.
So yeah, we moved here when I was...
11, I think, and he was in the military and basically got discharged due to an injury, and that's probably when he got addicted to the pills, so I guess for a long time.
Okay, that's a bit of a journey, and I just want to make sure where we settled, so if you had to guess, how old do you think you were when your father got addicted to pills?
12. And that's when he was out of the army?
Yes. Okay.
Alright. And did you notice any change in him as a result of this addiction?
Yes. He was asleep most of my life.
Basically, fallen asleep at the dinner table while eating food.
Slept all day.
Slept most of the night.
Like I said, he was studying to be a pharmacist.
So other than sleeping, that was basically the only thing I ever saw him do, you know, or yell at us or my mom.
And yeah, mostly was just like a sleep, like a lot.
I remember one time growing up, I did a school project and we had to talk about each member of our family.
And for him, it was just a square.
With little Z's for sleeping.
And he got really upset about it, actually.
And said, like, I don't want you to associate me with sleeping all the time.
Huh. Even though that's what he was doing, of course.
Right. And has he kicked the addiction?
As far as I'm aware, yes.
I don't think he's prescribed it anymore.
I'm not sure what it even was he was addicted to.
But, I mean, my mom is still around, and my brothers live in the house, and he seems to be awake and alive, just not working.
Okay. Is he, like, of retirement age?
Um... I'm not sure.
He's maybe, like, lower 50s.
Oh, so I'm pretty early to retire.
Okay. I think it was like a forced retirement from the military, I guess.
Right. Due to his injury.
Right, right.
Okay. And does he have any plan on resuming a productive life at all?
No, he has no plan.
Kind of had a, you know, me and my older or my younger sister definitely have had quite a falling out with him.
I don't really bring the kids around much.
We don't ever really hang out over here with them.
When we invite family, we only really invite my mom, which he feels bad about and she feels bad about.
But yeah, he just doesn't have any motivation or an inkling of trying to better his life, which probably is why I don't typically seem to improve my career without being nudged.
And I just am content where I am at, usually.
Right. Okay.
So, the guy was asleep for almost half your childhood.
Yeah. And that's normal?
Typical? Like, I'm trying to understand what your standard is here.
That's an extreme addiction.
I mean, why on earth your mother didn't drag him off to rehab is beyond me.
Yeah, I'm not sure either.
We've, you know, suggested to her that maybe she needs to do something about it, but...
Wait, sorry, you did suggest in the past, right?
Yes, not as children, I guess, but shortly, you know, maybe after I moved out, or after me and my sister had both moved out, we have kind of gone to her and been like, you know, is this really how you want to live your life?
Like, you need to change something.
Sorry, when did he kick the addiction?
Um, I assume...
Well, I mean, obviously he was addicted.
That's why he stole the pills at the pharmacy.
But he did seem to be functioning fairly normally, right?
He was working a normal shift during the day and wasn't sleeping all the time.
But I assume after he got fired, he kicked the addiction?
I'm not entirely sure.
Like I said, I haven't really delved too much into his life for a long time.
Okay. So if he started at 12...
When did he get fired?
How old were you?
I'd say maybe like 25 or 26. Oh gosh, okay.
So he only had the job for like a year or two, I think.
After all that studying, he has a job and then he's prescribing pills while he himself is high, right?
Possibly, yeah.
That's what it sounds like to me.
And that's what the investigation, you know, basically determined.
And what was your mom doing during all this time that has been plowing into the spaghetti at dinner?
She worked lots of different jobs.
She helped out at the school that my siblings worked at.
She was a crossing guard.
She did a few things here and there.
Just whatever she could do to help out, I suppose.
Yeah, I guess.
She basically had to take care of us fully on top of that because my dad wasn't awake or around.
So I'm trying to figure out, like, you left home at what age?
So my wife and I got pregnant at 18, or she got pregnant at 18, and we moved out at 18. Okay.
So for like six years, and six very important years, right?
Like six teenage years.
Your dad is like, it's like Weekend at Bernie's, right?
Yeah, that's right.
All right.
So you've got...
A couple of siblings, you've got a mom, you've got extended family.
Did everyone just step over the body and pretend like he was not catatonic?
Like, I don't understand how the family didn't, like, have an emergency, like, intervention meeting or something.
Yeah, exactly.
So, the family, the extended family is very much just, you know, keep it hush-hush, just pretend like it's not happening.
I have an uncle who would bring it up every once in a while, just like, what's going on with your dad?
Or, you know, I pity your mom and stuff like that.
But, yeah, nobody really seemed to do anything about it.
Yeah, I mean, the only person I could even think of that could get him to maybe change his ways was his dad.
I think they fought a few times.
Again, nothing I ever saw, and nothing seemed to change.
There was no intervention or anything like that, as far as I'm aware.
Did anyone talk to you about your dad and what was going on and how odd it was?
No, he would just not show up for family Sunday dinner, and people would ask where he was, and he'd be home sleeping.
Make a comment here or there, but nobody would talk to me, like, directly about it.
And your mom didn't say anything?
Um... What do you think she might say?
Well, I mean, when your dad keeps passing out in his cabbage soup, I guess, you know, she lifts him up by the head so he doesn't drown, and then she would say to you at some point, you know, dad's got an addiction, he's got a real problem, you know, we're trying this and that, but...
You know, I'm so sorry about this.
It's kind of unexpected, but I guess this is in the worst part of For Better or For Worse.
Yeah, no.
Never said anything like that to us, ever.
Unreal! That's madly unreal, isn't it?
Yes, actually.
Talking to you about it now, I don't know what was going on.
Year after year, there's a barely sentient, propped-up, half-pulsed body in the house, and everyone's like, dum-de-dum, can you pass me the remote?
Hey, do you want any extra salt?
I mean, that's bizarre, isn't it?
It is bizarre.
What is this massive dedication to unreality?
Is this from your mom?
I guess so, I mean...
I've talked with my aunts, her sisters a few times, or even her.
My mom kind of just turned off emotionally, I think.
I think for a long time she just has tried to numb her emotions as much as she can and to get through her hell of a life when we were kids.
I think she probably was just sticking around for us.
At least that's what she told me.
Sticking around for you?
Yeah, like, well, not for me only.
No, no, no, I get for the kids.
Oh, yeah.
But, sorry, and I'm sure I've missed something.
I'm still trying to catch up to this rollercoaster, but, I mean, stick around for the kids.
I mean, you don't have a father.
He's not a functional father.
He's not making any money.
Oh no, I guess he was at some point.
No, because he only worked for a year, right?
Yeah, but that was long after I had moved out.
He was making disability money and he had his military retirement for disability or something like that.
So did she stick around for the money?
I think, yeah, she did express that.
Because the government's dropping money on him, right?
His half-breathing body, the government just shovels money at him, right?
Right. And so, yeah, she felt that she wouldn't be able to support us on her own with no education or anything.
And I guess she thought if they were to get divorced, she wouldn't get anything because he's disabled.
Oh, I don't know how that works, of course.
Yeah, me neither.
But I think she would get his pension.
Okay. So your mother stayed for the money.
And I guess if he got better, he wouldn't get disability, right?
I'm not sure.
I think he still collects it now.
I think he's probably collected it for a long while because I think when I say disability, I'm more talking about just the funds from the military for him being injured.
Maybe he was getting disability from the state back when he was on the pills and stuff because he didn't have a job.
But yeah, I think he's still making money from...
I'm not sure that a drug addiction is technically a disability, but what do I know?
I mean, it's a bit chosen, right?
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Probably should ask my parents and talk to them more about this kind of stuff, but I'm just trying to put it behind me, I suppose.
Was it a good idea, in your mind, outside of the money, was it a good idea for your mother to stay with your father?
No. And why not?
Because he had pushed her one time physically.
He would yell at her to get a job, but then when she went to work, he'd yell at her because he had to take care of us or had to make sure we were alive, I suppose.
Just constant rage at the house here when he was awake.
Ill-tempered, can't-win military guy.
Boy, I never heard this one before.
Yeah, like I said, I think she was just trying to keep the family together.
She didn't know what to do.
I mean, she had plenty of family she could have turned to, I'm sure.
But yeah, I'm not quite sure.
My parents are religious, so maybe they thought divorce is out of the question due to that.
Okay. I mean, you'd think the drug addiction would be out of the question because you'd pray, so I'm not sure that your father was keeping his vows.
For sure.
Okay, and you said they're still together, so if she was with him for the kids, why is she with him now?
You're asking the wrong guy.
Well, I'm just not sure if she's ever talked about it or ever explained that.
Me and my sister, like I said, did try to go to her and say, we just don't think this is healthy.
This is not good.
You could have such a better life.
Most of your kids are moved out of the house.
All of the kids are over 18 now.
I haven't really heard her talk about it, honestly, since my youngest sibling turned 18, which was back in the day why she said she was sticking around until then, but she's still around.
Well, because he's still getting money from the government hoes.
True. Yep.
Okay. Now, tell me a little bit about your teenage years leading up to the pregnancy at 18. Yeah, so...
I was always the shortest guy.
You know, I made friends easily enough, but I'm a bit of a nerd.
I didn't ever play any sports or wasn't involved in any group activities outside of school or anything like that.
I had friends I'd hang out with down the street.
I met my wife when we were 13. Started dating at 15. All right, so sorry to interrupt.
So you met her at 13. Were you, like, interested in each other from early on, or did you just go from, like, friends to interested later?
Yes, we were just friends, and then we were, you know, eventually became best friends, and then she expressed interest to me, and then, yeah, eventually we started dating,
you know.
Alright, so this is the odd part of the convo.
Well, I'm sure there'll be more than one, but so far.
So, what were the red flags?
Because, I mean, she has a crazy household.
She herself is very chaotic.
So, sort of looking back at sort of 13, 14, 15, what were the red flags?
Yeah, so...
At 13, she dressed very odd.
She would wear, like, black...
Spanx. She just, like, dressed weird, like, always wore black, you know, kind of like a goth style, I suppose.
I'm in mourning for my life!
Okay, sorry, just a line from Chekhov.
But yeah, okay.
So she's a bit of a spider-like goth queen, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
She, you know, did her makeup as crazy as she could.
Her family was, like I said, just so much drama.
I used to say when we were younger, like, if we just, like, could get some film crews in here.
We would be so rich because your family is just insane.
Drama non-stop.
She was getting involved with sex and drugs at 15. Okay, so before, why did she become your friend?
And I'm not saying she doesn't have any good qualities.
Of course she does.
Yeah, sure.
She was funny.
We went to a school that just didn't have very many kids.
We were going to a very small school at that age when we met.
And all the kids that did go there, at least in our grade, became extremely close.
And then moving on after that, she came to the same school as me and a few of the other kids.
And we just...
She continued hanging out, continued talking, and we had similar interests, I suppose, with movies and just hanging out as teenagers.
Did she have any moodiness or chaos in her friendship with you before you became involved?
No, I wouldn't say so.
She was pleasant, as far as I could tell, before we started dating or anything.
So you drove her crazy.
Apparently. She was normal.
And then...
No, I'm just kidding.
All right.
Could be.
So there wasn't much chaos in your friendship with her, right?
If any, right?
I mean, she would kind of come to me with all of her drama that she had with her family.
Oh, that's not her drama.
That's her family's drama, right?
Sure. She happens to be born there.
She's kind of stuck there, right?
Yeah, and sure, she would tell me stories about her when she'd go hang out with friends and stuff.
Sorry, what stories would you have about her?
Before we started dating, she would just tell me things that I thought were insane, like sneaking out of her house and hanging out with a stranger or later on.
Years after we were married, she told me a story.
I guess maybe I shouldn't mention that, but she told me a story about how she almost ended up meeting a guy she had met online, which I thought was insane because this was like child predator 101 at that time period.
But yeah, she just...
Okay, so she was giving you the coming attractions of Crazy, right?
Coming soon to a marriage bed near you.
Okay, so she's giving you the sneak preview, right?
She's telling you, this is the decisions I make, this is the life that I'm going to lead, and all that, right?
Yes. Okay.
Certainly. Now, did you talk to, I don't know if you're, sort of, I guess your dad's mostly out the picture.
Did you talk to your mom at all about dating and girls, and did you get any warnings or feedback or anything like that?
Did you get parented at all?
I'm trying to figure this out.
Yeah, um...
Not at this age, no.
Like, 12, 13, 14, definitely not at all.
They just said, oh, you shouldn't date until you're 16. I mean, that's about it, I suppose.
Don't have sex.
Don't do drugs.
Like, don't drink.
That was about the extent of it.
Nothing, really.
But they must have met the girl.
Oh, yeah, sure.
We were just friends, though, at the time, so I guess they just weren't really worried about it.
Eh, okay.
Do you think that your parents have any capacity to identify crazy people?
Yes. Go on.
So, yeah, while we were dating, you know.
Like I said in my little spiel there, lots of drama.
And so my parents would mention things here and there just like, oh man, this is crazy.
I think before we had started dating, actually, I was trying to go hang out with her at her mom's house.
And her...
Stepfather told her she could not, or I could not come over.
Maybe we were dating her out this time, I'm not sure.
But he kind of yelled, and she actually jumped out of the car while it was moving.
It was moving at a very slow pace, but yes, she jumped out of the vehicle because she was so mad, couldn't stand it any longer, and she did end up cracking her head open.
An ambulance was called.
And I ended up going home because we were actually just right in front of my house.
And yeah, my parents kind of were like, this is crazy.
But they never really discouraged me from hanging out with her at all that I can remember.
Except for after I had gotten her pregnant in high school the first time and she had miscarried.
But even then, all they kind of said was just like, be careful.
Don't have sex again.
Right, but you're grown by then.
I was in, I think, junior year of high school.
Sorry, I thought she got pregnant at 18?
Yeah, so she got pregnant while we were in high school, but she miscarried.
And then my first semester of college was the next time she got pregnant.
Okay, and how old was she when she jumped out of the car and got the head injury?
I think a year before that, probably 15, or I guess, yeah, 15 maybe.
Did anyone else talk to you about standards of dating or relationships or anything like that?
My grandma would come over occasionally when me and her would be hanging out without my parents there and, you know, take a peek.
And, you know, my uncle would joke that we should not, you know, pet each other, I suppose.
But yeah, no, other than just like, don't have sex, don't date till you're 16. That was about it.
And you said she got into drugs.
And was it drinking too at the age of 15?
Yes. So what the hell happened to her?
I mean, she's got a chaotic family.
Do you know the specifics about how she was mistreated as a baby, toddler, young kid?
Um, I don't.
She kind of...
Doesn't talk about her childhood all that much.
She has a really bad memory, although maybe she was just, like, repressing bad memories.
I'm not sure.
But she doesn't have, like, all that many stories from her childhood that would help me identify, you know, like, crazy tendencies later on, I guess.
Yeah, I mean, this level of chaos.
I mean, obviously I can't diagnose anyone.
This is just my...
Idiot, amateur opinion.
But that all seems like severe sexual abuse or, like, really sadistic physical abuse.
I mean, to have this level of chaos, impulsivity, willpower, and self-destruction is really extreme.
Yeah, I think she might have been sexually abused by a sibling, possibly, which she's kind of hinted at, but she's never talked to me about it, like, fully.
And, again, I think that she just is trying.
She either has or has tried to repress that as much as she can.
Yeah, well, that's not going to help.
In fact, it's probably going to make it worse.
But all right, that's outside the purview of this convo.
So what kind of drugs did she get into in her mid-teens?
Marijuana, and I don't know about any others.
I don't think she did anything else.
Oh, yeah.
Like blackout drinking at parties and stuff.
And were you there at these parties as well?
No, I just heard about it later when she would come talk to me about it.
And was she hooking up with guys at this age as well?
Yep. And what were your thoughts about the drinking, the drugs, and the promiscuity?
I... Didn't like it at all, of course, and didn't really like hearing about it, but that was before I even thought I was attracted to her, I guess.
You know, she'd tell me all these crazy stories, and I'd just be like, this is insane, and I can't believe I'm even friends with a person like this.
And was she very pretty, a great figure, or was there something that compensated for the obvious mental health issues?
I think that she...
Told me first that she liked me.
And actually, early on in our relationship, I think that the fact that she told me she liked me, that was why I liked her.
I mean, of course, we liked hanging out and we were already best friends and all this stuff.
But maybe I had a crush on her or I liked her more than some other girls or something like that.
But I wasn't head over heels in love with this girl or anything like that.
So she's not that pretty or she's not your type?
What's that?
She's not that pretty or she's not your type?
She's not the most attractive girl on the planet.
She's a little heavier.
But I mean, I think she's pretty.
I'm attracted to her.
So... After she does drugs, blackout, drinking, promiscuity, she says, hey, let's you and me get together.
Yeah, so basically she just told me straight up, I've always liked you.
And yeah, she basically throughout our years had hinted that she had This super ultra secret, and later I found out that the super ultra secret was that she liked me.
Okay, I mean, I'm not sure that hooking up with other guys is the best way to express that.
Yeah, that's true.
So did you have any doubt or did you just like happily dive in?
Happily dive into what?
Oh, a relationship with the girl.
Yeah, so basically what happened was she told me she liked me, so I told her, oh yeah, I like you too.
And then she actually, like nothing really came of that like immediately, I suppose.
You know, we just kind of hung out as friends with this.
We like each other looming over our shoulder.
And then, like I said, she ended up dating other people.
Because maybe I guess I just didn't ask her to be my girlfriend or anything like that.
And then when she was single at one point, I did ask her.
And then, like I said, the day after she ended up cheating on me with her ex-boyfriend.
So then she immediately broke up with me.
And then a long time had passed later in the school year.
And then she was like, oh yeah, sorry about that, I guess.
And at the time, I didn't really care, I guess, because it was like we had barely even dated for half a day, and I probably shouldn't have asked her anyway.
And at the time, I didn't even know that had happened until later.
Bet she cheated on you after dating you for half a day with her ex-boyfriend?
Yeah. And so...
Yeah. Any self-preservation instincts kicking in here at all?
Any danger, Will Robinson, warning signs of potential doom?
Anything? No.
Not a thing?
No. Why do you think?
I mean, if somebody else was telling you this story, it'd be like, there's red flags, and then there's a fucking Chinese Communist parade, right?
So, why do you think you were so absent from any sense of judgment or self-protection?
I think that, I don't know, maybe I just wanted to be liked.
I don't know, I always thought I was an unattractive kid, so having someone like me maybe boosted my...
Self-respect.
Like I said, I don't think my parents were giving me tons of praise growing up, so having someone be interested in me just trumped all other red flags, I suppose.
I knew she'd be willing to make out with me and have sex, maybe.
Well, but also that it was going to be a ride to hell, right?
Yeah, I guess I just thought, I don't know, maybe I thought I could fix her.
Maybe I thought this was normal for high schoolers.
I'm not sure.
I don't know why I didn't think one time about how this is insanity.
No, because you'd already said when she would tell you these stories about the parties or going to meet the guy she met on the internet, like this is crazy, right?
So you knew that, right?
Yeah. So what was I doing?
What was I thinking?
Well, I don't know.
I'm trying to figure that out.
Yeah. uh,
Yeah, I literally have no idea what I was thinking.
I just liked her.
I liked hanging out with her.
But what did you like about her?
She's throwing herself out of cars, meeting strangers on the internet, getting blackout drunk, doing drugs, banging guys or whatever she was doing, right?
In her mid-teens.
So what was there to like?
And by like, I mean admire.
Like, I define love as our...
Involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous, right?
If you're a good, honest, courageous person of integrity, then you meet someone else who's good and honest and has good integrity, and you admire their virtues, right?
So, that's love, right?
I mean, lust is different, but you keep saying you liked her.
What did you like?
I'm not saying, I mean, you said sense of humor and, I don't know, similar interests.
I get that, so...
Go watch a comedian or listen to her tell jokes, but that doesn't necessarily mean get involved.
So what did you like?
Yeah. I don't know.
I think we were just in a bit of a honeymoon phase, maybe, and we just spent every waking moment together.
It didn't matter what we were doing, whether it was...
Even if we were just sitting on the couch talking, that was better than the next best thing.
Actually doing something fun with a friend, maybe.
Would you say that you were neglected as a kid?
I mean, certainly your father did.
Were you neglected as a child?
I'm not sure if necessarily I was neglected, but I didn't feel like there was a ton of attention being paid towards me.
So what I mean by that is, did you get a sense from your parents that they enjoyed your company, that they sought you out, that they, you know, wanted to play cards or hide-and-go-seek or board games or something or go for walks and chat?
I mean, did they enjoy your thoughts?
Did they, I mean, did you feel of value to them and that they really cared for you and enjoyed spending time with you?
I think that definitely early on, that was the case, right?
We would spend time together, we would laugh together.
You know, play cards, all that good stuff.
However, I think when my dad was not around and my mom had to pick up the slack, there wasn't really much time for cards or hide-and-seek.
Like when you were 12, right?
Yeah, it was kind of just me and the siblings on our own.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm an insane person and I'm totally remembering it wrong, but that's what it seemed like.
But your father was ill-tempered from the beginning, right?
Yes. I mean, was the ill-temper rare enough that you could sit and relax and enjoy a game of cards or Monopoly or something?
Yeah, for sure.
Okay, got it.
So how often would he lose his temper?
I mean...
Before we moved here and he lost his job and all that, it'd be rare enough.
Maybe a couple times a month.
But when we moved here and he was sleeping all the time, basically any waking moment that he was alive, you had to kind of, or awake rather.
You'd have to walk on eggshells, tread lightly type thing.
Well, I mean, he's either drugged or going through withdrawal, so I assume that's not great.
Yeah. Okay.
Thank you.
Yeah. So both your parents did enjoy your company and look forward to spending time with you when you were younger?
Yeah, before we moved here, definitely we would spend time together.
Even when my dad was going through all this, we would do stuff.
He would take us to the movies every once in a while.
I can't really think of a whole lot.
More than we would typically do.
We'd watch a movie at home.
It wasn't like every waking moment.
He was just a stomping giant.
Even now, you have to walk on eggshells.
Be careful what you say.
Don't let him be in a mood.
However, now, we're adults.
We just tell him how it is if he gets upset.
Yeah, I'm not sure if I feel neglected, but yeah, it did seem like I was alone a lot of the time or left to my own devices.
You mean sort of from 12 onwards?
Yeah. Okay, got it.
And how did you get along with your siblings?
Great. I mean, we would fight physically, right?
We would kick each other's teeth out and get in little wrestle matches or whatever.
I talk to all of them still.
Sorry, you don't literally mean kick each other's teeth out.
One time I did kick my sister's tooth out on accident.
Okay. And how often would you guys physically fight?
Not terribly often, right?
It was just like we were teasing each other type thing.
The kicking the tooth out, that happened when I was much younger and things were much brighter.
Yeah, we would get into tussles or me and the brothers would sword fight in the backyard with sticks or whatever and hit each other on accident sometimes.
Right, right.
But yeah, no, our relationship was fine.
Maybe we'd call each other names and stuff, but other than that, that was about it.
And now I still talk to all of them and we hang out fairly rarely.
I'd like to hang out more, but we still see each other.
And did you have any male or female friends who warned you about the potential dangers of your girlfriend?
Oh, I'm so glad you asked.
Yes, I did have one male friend who warned me quite a few times.
And actually, when we were in college, I think we were at the gym, maybe, just exercising.
I had confided in him that I was actually thinking of breaking up with her based on the way that she was acting.
We both worked at the same place.
And the way that she was acting with other men at the place was making me uncomfortable.
And so me and him had talked about it.
And I had told him all the drama and all that good stuff.
And so, yeah, he did kind of say, I think that would be a good decision.
And then shortly thereafter, we found out she was pregnant.
And that's when we ended up having my first son.
And when did you meet your friend?
At what age?
We met in high school junior year.
So this is just as you were getting involved with your girlfriend?
Yeah, I think we had my girlfriend and I, so we had dated for the whole summer, and then I met him.
So we started dating the end of sophomore year through the whole summer, and then...
I met my friend the beginning of junior year.
Okay, got it.
But it took until college for him to say, maybe this isn't great?
Yeah, I mean, I probably wasn't telling him everything until then.
And I think when we got the job where I was noticing how my girlfriend was acting, that I didn't like that, that was...
I think the summer after senior year, before I had started college.
And me and him actually were living together in college, so he probably saw a lot more than when we were in high school.
Okay, got it.
Alright, so you're 17, she gets pregnant and has a miscarriage, right?
Yes. Okay, and were you having unprotected sex?
Yes. Why?
You're a smart guy, right?
I mean, based on this chat we're having, does it seem like I'm a smart guy?
No, I mean, I can tell, right?
You're a smart guy, so what do you do in having unprotected sex?
I don't know, man.
I think it just worked long enough that I thought we were good, and we were not.
And also, she was actually on Birth control early on because she had some sort of medical condition and she was actually prescribed birth control because they said that it would help with the medical condition.
But of course she got off of that, as we all know now.
And I don't know, I guess...
Sorry, you thought she was on birth control?
Well, she was at one point.
But when she got pregnant, obviously she wasn't.
But did you know that?
I would say yes.
I would say yes.
I'm not sure what that means.
I don't quite remember, but definitely I assume that I knew.
Well, I mean, if she told you she was on birth control, it's kind of incumbent upon her to tell you when she's not on birth control, right?
Yeah, I think she definitely told me, and I knew, and we were having unprotected sex anyway, and just thinking it would be fine, and it wasn't, and then even after she miscarried in high school, we continued not having,
or we continued having unprotected sex after that, also.
And why do you think that was the case?
Um... Because I...
It feels better.
Not that that's a good excuse.
Like I said, we had had sex, you know, a hundred times and nothing had happened, but thinking that nothing was going to happen.
Yeah, that's basically all I got.
It's Russian roulette, right?
Yes. Are you a Christian man?
Yes. Are you a serious Christian man or a weekends and Christmas guy?
I would say I am serious, although I have not attended church for a few months.
Okay, so if you're a serious Christian man, she's a Christian woman?
Yes. Okay.
Why are you having unprotected sex outside of marriage?
Or sex at all outside of marriage, really.
Um...
Um... Because sex is great?
I'm not going to disagree with you about that, but that's why it's morally confined within the marriage, right?
Sure. Yeah, we knew we weren't supposed to be doing that, and we shouldn't be doing that, and...
So you're not that serious, at least back then, right, when it comes to Christianity?
Sure. Basically, that was the only major sin I was committing.
That was the only?
That's the one that creates actual people!
True. You would be better off shoplifting.
Yes. Or beating on a hobo.
I mean, that's not a little one, is it?
No, definitely that would be one of the top ones, maybe the worst one.
It's pretty bad.
Right below blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I would imagine, because it creates actual people without the marital stability that gives them a good start in life, right?
Right. Okay.
So not that serious, right?
Because I assume that you were perfectly aware that it was a major sin.
And you didn't go to the priest and ask for help, and you didn't say we should get married, or you just kept having sex, unprotected sex, right?
Yes. Sorry, I thought you were asking me if I was a Christian person now.
Oh, you weren't then?
No, I was, but I just meant like now I'm not committing such atrocities, I suppose.
But that's because I'm married, right?
Well, is divorce a sin?
I'm not sure.
I don't think so.
It's breaking a vow you made to God.
That's not good, is it?
I would say no.
Yeah, to stay forever until death do you part.
Better and worse, sickness and health.
Richer for poorer.
I don't think divorce is...
I mean, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't, but it's certainly not great to break your vow to God, right?
Right. Okay, so, she gets pregnant when you're 18, is that right?
That's right.
Second time this one takes, you have a child.
Yes. And what happens to her over pregnancy and after the child is born, because if crazy people go, if crazy women in particular are going to go really crazy, it's usually around those times.
Yeah, so...
As far as crazy goes, she was extremely against basically anyone holding our baby other than me and her.
But I basically would just say, well, that's not happening.
So I would take the baby when family was over and hand the baby to family.
I mean, she was pretty emotional, but nothing that I can recount that was red flag.
So, no particular postpartum depression or anything, right?
Yes, no postpartum depression with any of her pregnancies, other than, you know, obviously she was extremely distraught at the stillborn birth later on.
I completely understand that, and of course, big sympathies for everyone involved.
Okay, and did anyone suggest that maybe you should get married?
Yes. So her parents, or her dad more specifically, was very against it.
So was her, you know...
Sorry, against getting married?
Yes. And then my parents were all for it.
And... Not that they have a great track record, as we discussed.
And... Yeah, we of course wanted to get married also.
And that's...
That's about it.
No other family weighed in as far as I remember.
Maybe her mom said, yes, you guys should get married.
And what was the time frame between the first child that lived and getting married?
So she was pregnant and we got married before the baby was born.
Before the next baby was born.
Sorry, what was the question?
Maybe I misheard you.
So the first baby is born, sorry, you got married when she was pregnant with the first child who lived, right?
Yes, that's right.
Okay, got it, got it.
Okay, so you were married at 19?
So we were still 18. 18, okay, got it.
But we were, you know, six months out from turning 19. Okay, got it.
And what are the major sort of highs and lows of the next decade?
Thank you.
Major highs and lows.
So, I mean, everything was just hard, I guess, until she ended up eventually moving out.
Life was just hard in general.
We weren't making lots of money.
We had kids.
We bounced around between different family.
Then we ended up getting our own place at a low-income apartment.
We were both working part-time jobs while one person would stay home with the kid while the other went to school, and then we would trade.
And then when she moved out, that was the big downfall, I suppose.
That was the first insane low that I can remember.
And how else were you then?
Ooh. Maybe like
Maybe like...
25? Right, okay.
And sorry, just remind me the circumstances of her moving out.
Her moving out?
Yeah. So she was actually talking to somebody.
I didn't find this out until later.
But she was actually talking to a friend of ours and, you know, chatting with him.
More regularly than she should have been.
And she basically said, like, I'm not, you know, growing or excelling in any aspect of life, I guess.
And so she ended up moving out to find her own place.
Sorry, but she said, I'm not.
Was she referring to you or herself?
Me, me.
You, okay.
Yeah, she just was like, I think I'd be better off on my own.
She was definitely making more money than me.
I think I was working like two part-time jobs to try and fit around her schedule because one of the jobs I was able to actually take my kids with me.
And yeah, she just, I don't know, she didn't like me anymore.
She saw a better option somewhere else maybe.
And how long was she gone for?
I think it was only like a couple months after that that she had told me officially about the cheating, probably.
And this is with the friend, right?
Yeah. So it was with him and then with some other guy she had met.
And then she told me about it.
And I don't think she was seeing anyone else after she had told me, but...
I was under the impression the whole time that this was just like a break in our relationship to work on things and better ourselves.
I mean, she cheated on you the first day you were dating.
Right. Like the first day.
Right. Not even the first week or month, the first day.
Right. How good are you at pattern recognition as a whole?
When it comes to my wife, not that great, obviously.
But I think other than that, I think I'm alright.
Alright. Okay, so she comes back and she tells you she slept with two men and lied to you about it.
And what do you do?
So I was, you know, obviously extremely upset.
I think I had like an emergency.
I had a counselor meeting or therapist meeting with her, and I had talked to a friend of mine, actually, who was, I don't know, I think he's like 10 years older than me, who had gone through the exact same thing, but his marriage was still going strong.
And so I was seeking out advice from him.
But other than that, I think I had told one other close friend from work.
And yeah, just like dealing with it on my own, I suppose.
Like I mentioned in my little spiel there.
You must have thought of leaving.
Oh yeah, for sure.
And what was the decision point to stay?
Thank you.
So basically what had happened is...
We were still attending counseling or therapy or whatever.
And I had kind of checked out.
I was just like, okay, this isn't going anywhere.
We're definitely getting divorced.
She's not improving at all.
I'm kind of done trying.
I'm going to just focus on myself and move on from here.
And it seemed like, right as I started doing that, she had kind of 180'd.
And so now, she was actually the one trying more than me, and I guess some point after that, where I realized, oh wow, she's really trying a lot, I was like,
oh, maybe we can make this work actually, and maybe I can forgive her and get over this.
And don't answer anything you're not comfortable with, and I'm sorry to ask this fairly blunt question.
But, uh, has your sex life waxed and waned over the course of your marriage, or has it been fairly consistent either way?
It's been fairly consistent.
Okay. So, it wasn't like you went through some horrible six-month dry spell and she just vaulted to refresh pastures or anything?
Nope. Yeah, she, that's never been a, like, contention or problem in our relationship at all, and...
You know, she's even mentioned, as well as my friend I mentioned earlier, that that might be the entire reason for our relationship.
Right. And the only thing even going for it, right?
Right, right.
Okay. And if she was on the call, what would she say that she admires?
what are the top three or five things that she admires about you?
Um... Well...
Right now, what would she say?
Yeah. She'd say, I'm a great father.
She'd say, I'm nice.
She'd say, smart.
Maybe she'd say funny.
She'd say, I'm I was going to say loyal, but maybe she wouldn't think that.
I'm a good man.
I'm smart.
Yeah, I already said that.
I'm not sure.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but in terms of goodness, how would she break that out?
A good man is kind of generic.
Yeah, sure.
I've never...
Cheated on her unless you count pornography.
I've never even talked to a girl with intentions of anything like that.
I put my kids first.
I am around.
I try to be honest with her.
I mean, who knows if she even knows what a good guy is.
I don't know.
That's just what I think she would say.
Okay. And what were the top three or five things that you admire about her?
She's very hardworking, creative, very personable.
She's very genuine.
you.
Yeah, she's funny.
She was actually the one that had told...
I mean, I guess that's not really honest, but...
She's... Go ahead.
No, go ahead.
I don't know.
I was just going to say she's a good...
When we're together as a family, she's pretty involved with the kids most of the time, or tries to be...
Come up with fun activities for us to do.
She's really good.
She's very planned.
She's a very good planner.
Okay. And so, you take it back at 25, and then how do things cruise over the last six years?
And again, I know you read this at the beginning, but now I have the sort of personal history of you both that probably has a slightly different flavor.
Yeah, so...
I've actually just kind of always had that in the back of my mind, right?
As you do.
And while I did...
Sorry, always had what?
Like the cheating.
Oh, her cheating.
Okay. And just the two that you know of, right?
Yeah, so at this point, it was just those two.
I'm not trying to put any worms in your ear, but...
You don't have any doubt about paternity?
I don't with these three, but I did with the one that was a stillborn, or I do.
Ah, okay.
But there's no way to check that, I guess.
Thank you.
But, yeah, so...
You know, our relationship was, you know...
Pretty rollercoaster-y, right?
Sometimes it was going fine, sometimes it was going not so fine.
She... The friend, actually, at this point, I didn't know it was him, right?
She had lied to me about who it was, and so I actually had hung out with him a few times.
And... So...
Man, what a turbo scumbag.
Yeah, exactly.
Later, my friend mentioned to me, oh, why are you mad at him?
You should be mad at your wife.
Because he wasn't a lifelong friend or anything, and I knew he wasn't a very good guy.
Things were fine or good.
We'd fight or whatever, and there'd be drama and stuff, but nothing too crazy.
She started hinting to me.
We were actually on a date one time, and I think the waitress was extra interested in me or something.
And after the date, she actually had said, like, oh, you should ask for her number or something.
That's weird that she asked you that.
And I was like, why would I ask her for her number?
I'm married.
And I was on a date with you.
And she kind of started hinting and commenting like, oh, I don't know.
Maybe it's not going to work out.
And this is because...
I had later found out that she was never really entirely in the relationship because she only got back together with me because she got pregnant.
And she was like, oh, I'm just going to make this work, I guess.
And that's why she hadn't mentioned it to the therapist is because she didn't want him to think, oh, well, are you sure the only reason you're getting back together is because you're pregnant?
Eventually, we had this crazy fight, and she ran out of the house and drove away.
She ended up meeting with the guy, told him, I'm going to tell my husband, so me, because I can't lie anymore.
If we are going to make this relationship work, I need to tell him.
He was, of course, against it, and so that's why I ended up cutting off a bunch of friendships.
Um, because there was like a whole group of people and some of them had known and didn't tell me.
And then we, you know, I guess patched a hole in the ship long enough until last year when she had come to me and said,
you know, I think this, that's time actually we get a divorce or this relationship isn't going anywhere.
We're paused in time.
We're not excelling or improving our lives in any way.
Nothing is happening.
Nothing new.
You're not doing anything to change it.
I think I need to...
If I am going to change it, I need to do it on my own.
And this was, of course, I assume, going to later crop up, that it was psychologically damaging for our kids to go through all these move-outs and...
And how often do you and she fight?
Uh, like right now?
Well, yeah, I mean, over the course of your relationship, I assume it comes and goes, but what's going on now?
Oh, no, everything's fine now.
Okay. Yeah, um, actually able to, like, I guess, argue and debate as adults should without letting raised voices and emotions get too much in the way of the argument.
And in the past, how often would you fight in this harsh way?
I think, yeah, during certain parts we'd argue more versus others, right?
Tried not to do it in front of the kids too much if I remember correctly, but maybe like, I don't know, not too often, maybe once every month or every couple months.
Usually it's about money.
That's primarily what we fight about.
I think she spends too much and she says I don't make enough.
Funny how that works.
Right. And yeah.
And anyway, when she had this, so then we were going to get divorced.
Sorry, this was about the waitress?
What about the waitress?
Sorry, you had the waitress who wanted your number and she's like, maybe you should, maybe it's not going to work out.
And was that relative, was that something relevant to the divorce that was going to happen?
Oh, sorry.
No, this was like a year later that she came to me and wanted to get a divorce.
Okay. Oh, sorry.
So she came a year later, wanted to get a divorce because you weren't making progress in your career.
She was unhappy X, Y, and Z. Okay.
And did you immediately start thinking she's got a guy on the side?
Because pattern recognition?
Yes. So I was worried about that.
However, the behavior...
So I actually do think there may have been somebody that she was interested in, although I do not believe that she actually had somebody on the side that she was actively pursuing or knew.
But I definitely think she might have had somebody in mind.
But based on her behavior, her behavior didn't seem to show that that was the case, if that makes sense.
Her behavior didn't match up with the past instances.
That makes sense.
Okay, got it.
So then, sorry, how old were you when she came and wanted the divorce?
This was a year ago before the summer, so I was 30. Okay, got it.
And what happened then?
And I basically, you know, tried to mend everything and become Superman, right?
You got the big pay raise, right?
So, I don't think I got, I mean, I might have gotten a raise, but this wasn't when I got into the job, the salaried position.
I've been working there for like a few years now.
Okay. But, um, but anyway.
Sorry, so you'd made more, you were making, at one point you said you'd gone to a job that you'd made more money than you'd ever made before.
Where was that relative to her wanting a divorce?
That was maybe like two years before.
So the money issues had been, obviously nobody ever totally solves money issues, but the money issues had been helped a lot with your increase in salary, is that right?
That's right.
So you had dealt with the money issue, and what was her issue a year ago that she wanted the divorce?
That within the two years since I had gotten the job, I had not been promoted or gotten much of a raise or...
Done anything with my degree.
So I actually had gotten my degree, but I got the job before my degree and I'm still working at the same position from before I got my degree.
And she was expecting that when I got my degree, I would be getting some massive pay rise.
However, that did not end up happening.
Because the degree is expensive, right?
And there's debt involved usually?
Yeah, there is.
Okay. And what was your degree in?
My degree is in information systems.
Okay. And you're not working in that field, is that right?
I am.
However, I think, like I said before, she was just expecting me to make much more money after I got the degree.
Was that the plan?
Yes. Okay, so you got the degree, and how long did it take to get the degree?
Way too long.
Because I mean, you've got a job, you've got a wife, you've got kids.
I mean, it's tough, right?
Right. So how long did it take to get the degree?
So I worked on the degree off and on from just right out of high school.
And then I got the degree like two years ago, maybe now.
And so I don't know how long that is.
Almost 10 years.
Well, 10 plus years, right?
Yeah, and the reason is because I had switched my major a couple times.
I had failed classes a couple times.
And there were big breaks, right?
She went to school, or neither of us were going to school.
I didn't register on time maybe once.
And so all of that combined just ended up taking...
Oh, also, some of the time I was going to school, I was only going part-time.
Because, you know, kids in school and work.
And had she had a big increase in her career and earning?
So she did once she finished her schooling.
So she has her own business that she runs.
And while she doesn't make more than me now, last summer when she wanted to get divorced, she probably was making similar to what I make.
Okay, got it.
And her...
Salary has continued to increase, whereas yours has stagnated for the last couple of years.
Is that right?
Yes. Since I got this position, so maybe like three years ago, my pay has gone up maybe like 10 to 20%.
Is she at all of the philosophy that one of the ways that you get men to excel is to believe in them, encourage them, and support them?
Or is that not so much on her palate, so to speak?
Yeah, so that's a great question.
She does...
So, recently I actually got a certification to help me with my career goals.
And the reason why I said she had been berating me for years was mainly due to the money.
And she had been telling me, are you ever going to get this certification?
You know, you've been talking about this for a while.
However, I felt almost zero support.
I think she watched the kids maybe one time ever throughout my entire studying for it.
And I had been studying for it for months and months.
And I did end up getting it just a couple months ago.
But yes, I did study for it while the kids were there disturbing me while she was gone doing her sport of choice.
I'm sorry if I missed this sport of choice.
Yeah, so she is an extremely avid pickleball player currently.
Pickleball, great sport.
Okay. Yeah.
And a couple, maybe like two or three years ago, I think two years ago, she got extremely into like boxing.
Boxing? Like going to a boxing gym and just like punching the bag for exercise.
Okay. However, pickleball.
She did play tennis in high school.
Okay, got it.
She's, of course, amazing at pickleball right off the bat.
During this whole divorce period, she was gone playing pickleball a lot, which might be super crazy suspicious.
Her explanation was just she was trying to disconnect from me and get away from me.
And she didn't want to be home because it was depressing and I was there.
Sorry, what about you does she find depressing?
That she felt extreme guilt that she wanted to get a divorce.
She actually had kind of a meltdown, which terrified me a tad.
You know, the sake of my children's future, because I was like, these kids are going to be home alone with you and you're acting like this?
About how, you know, this is basically all her fault that the divorce is happening, right?
Because she's instigating the divorce.
And, you know, I've talked to her in the past about, you know, the statistics of divorced kids and how their lives are just, you know, typically worse, not in all cases, but sometimes.
I'm sorry, how old is your oldest kid?
Eleven. Eleven, okay.
I mean, she probably knows, or I hope she knows, that she really can't have boyfriends around the kids.
Yeah, I mean, I know that, and I'm sure I could tell her that, but...
Yeah, I mean, the risk of abuse of kids, particularly molestation, goes up 30-plus times with a non-related male in the house.
Yes, I feel like I literally heard that today or within the last couple of days, maybe even from you.
I'm not sure.
Right. Yeah, just a reminder.
Okay. Yeah.
And so, yeah, she just felt guilty.
You know, she says at least that she still loved me.
And so me being around and her being around me.
Sorry, I missed what was scary about the meltdown.
Oh, she just like...
Had an emotional meltdown.
She was just not in control of her emotions.
She was just screaming and crying so loud.
And even though I was doing my best to calm her down and reassure her, it just didn't seem to be going anywhere.
How long did this last?
The talk was a few hours.
However, the really crazy meltdown maybe was like...
Over the course of a few minutes up to maybe 10 minutes.
And were the kids in the house?
They were.
However, it was the middle of the night, so they were not awake.
Oh, I wouldn't be...
Okay, let's hope.
Let's hope.
Yeah, let's hope.
I don't think they were awake, or at least none of them mentioned to me.
And me and my oldest son are pretty close, so I feel like he would have said something.
Okay, got it.
So, yeah.
That's why she was gone.
And obviously she loves the sport, so she wants to go professional now.
But I've had my qualms about that.
I think it's taken up too much of her time, and she's neglecting the family to pursue that.
Although, since I had voiced my frustrations, she has cut back a lot.
Sorry, your frustration on?
The amount of time she spends outside of the house.
Right, okay.
And yeah, it was actually becoming a problem a year ago when she was planning on divorcing me because the kids would want to do something with her or hang out with her and she would prioritize the pickleball over them in public and she would kind of just like shoo them aside so she could play with a better player.
And they were visibly upset and vocal about it, and so I had to kind of swoop in and try to fix things there to the point where my oldest son actually said that if we were to get a divorce,
he said he wanted to live with me only, although I don't think that's allowed at his age.
So, yeah.
And yeah, like I said, she has been a lot better about it now, at least over the past few months.
And so yeah, she wanted to get a divorce.
I was basically, like I said, at the same point back when we were in counseling years ago, I got to a point where I was thinking, this isn't going anywhere.
She's not going to magically fall back in love with me or not want a divorce any longer.
Time for me to just work on myself.
When she asked me to do certain things, I would tell her, you know, that's something that a husband does, and I'm not going to be your husband anymore, so I'm not going to do that for you.
And we were out, I think, shopping for my birthday, which I guess would be an odd activity for some people that are about to get divorced.
But like I said, we were trying to be as amicable about it as we could be.
And we ended up going to dinner using a gift card that I had.
And during dinner, she said that she thinks we should try to make it work again.
And she kind of laid out some things and just said, I think I need to work on this and I think you need to work on this and we can make it work.
And I was a little dumbfounded at the time thinking, you know, I already kind of checked out here.
Why do you think this changed?
Or what did she say about it?
I think that she was just thinking, I don't want to split the kids up and I love you.
It seemed like, at the time at least, I was trying to better myself a ton.
I was trying to become Superman and just do everything all by my own.
Basically pretend I'm a single father already at the house.
Maybe seeing some sort of change in me.
I didn't leave.
Like I said, I was still at the house all the time, so maybe she just felt like it was great having me around.
Anytime I went to go look at apartments or anything, she would get upset about it.
Maybe she just had a change of mind.
Emotional rollercoaster was back on track for a moment.
And I, at the time, was thinking, like, I don't even know if I want to get back together with you, but I didn't make a decision about it or do anything about it.
And so we just coasted along.
And, yeah.
Then, I think it was a few months ago now, She went to a concert with a friend.
They were drinking.
She drank way too much.
And she ended up calling out to a stranger in a garage or something who ended up kissing her.
She doesn't quite remember the whole story, but basically her friend saved her.
And at the time I was like, oh, I don't even really care that much.
Which I shouldn't have said because as time went on I cared more and more.
And, you know, I talked to a divorce lawyer like maybe a month ago now.
And, yeah, I was seriously contemplating it.
And, yeah, I was suggested to maybe come chat with you about it and see what I, you know, get some good unbiased thoughts, I guess.
Right, right, okay.
From a stranger, not from somebody that knows us.
And, yeah.
Right. Now, her top, say, three criticisms of you.
I mean, I've heard the issues that you have with her, which make total sense to me.
And what are her big issues with you?
I mean, obviously, there is the, oh, you're not ambitious, you're not succeeding enough, you're not doing this, that, or the other.
but what else?
Thank you.
I mean, I think that's mostly it.
Just the ambition, not hardworking.
She, you know, during these chats where we'd be in the middle of getting a divorce or close to getting one, she would, you know, she wants me to, I don't know, she just wants things in me that I guess she would find manly, like building things.
She's like really crafty and always is like building stuff.
She wants somebody to look around the house, see what needs fixing or see what needs improvement and just do it.
Even though that's just not something I've ever been.
Interested in doing.
If I want to improve a room in my house, I would just get someone to do it for me.
Other than fixing cars and stuff, I'm not going to see our bathroom and go, you know what this needs is some new tile.
She always has talked about that.
She would like if I was taller.
I'm 5'10".
That's still above average, right?
Yes, barely.
Well, yes, but still above average.
Right. Yeah, so there's that.
But yeah, most of it just has to do with ambition, discipline around career goals and money making.
Anytime we go on vacation, she plans it.
She probably would like if I planned it.
I'm not very...
I don't plan dates very well or with much intent.
She doesn't feel desire from me as much as she'd like, for sure.
Which, of course, I'm thinking, okay, well, that's because I have this dark circle in the back of my mind sometimes, especially since the more recent cheating.
Because like I said before that, our relationship actually was going pretty good.
But, yeah, like you said, pattern recognition.
Like, this has just happened one too many times, and I'm not sure where it's headed, you know?
Right, right.
Okay. How masculine is she?
She's pretty masculine, actually.
Yeah. She basically won't let me take care of anything.
So after this last or more previous...
Debacle or incident.
I basically went to her and I was like, look, these are things that I need you to do.
I need you to go to your own therapy.
I need you to do...
What was it?
I was like, you need to play pickleball less.
She even told me she would quit pickleball, which I don't know if that's true.
She doesn't have my last name.
I'm not sure how much you think about that.
No, that's important.
Yeah, she said she would take my last name, but hasn't.
She said I could be in full financial control.
We are in quite a bit of debt because of her spending, in my opinion.
Well, and your schooling, which hasn't paid off.
Oh yeah, I'm not even counting that.
Well, why wouldn't you count that?
Just because the company I work for currently, they pay towards that every month.
I haven't had to keep that in my mind.
Don't forget your loan payment or anything like that.
Also, my loan payment, I'm sure, is well below average due to grants early on.
She basically promised me all these things and bowed down before me and said, These are the 10 things I'm going to do for you to prove my love, but I don't think any of them have come to fruition except for that she's fully sober.
like
Basically, I think what happened is early on, I wasn't pulling my weight in the relationship.
I wasn't being a man.
I wasn't working hard.
I got married and had a kid at too young of an age.
And she had to kind of pull the wagon, so to speak, on her own, or at least with not as much help from me as she deserved.
And so I think that it's maybe too late now for me to take on that role because every time I try to, I'm basically utterly shut down.
Even when we developed a full financial plan, Because I'm just the much more frugal person in the relationship.
So if we're going to get out of debt, I said, let's come up with a plan together and I will enact the plan.
And that is just not happening.
She's not following the plan.
And yeah.
Very much like gung-ho.
Her dad definitely favored her growing up as far as like, you know, she was like the tomboy, I guess, of the daughters.
And yeah, she does.
Act pretty masculine, very competitive.
Like I said, crafty and likes to build stuff.
So anyway.
Got it.
Okay. Okay.
And so you said you're leading 1730.
Is that right to leaving?
Sorry, what?
About 1730?
Sorry, 1730.
Leaning towards leaving?
Oh, yeah, that's right.
Sorry, I'm yanking numbers from the very beginning of the convo.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Okay. And so if there's more you want to add, I'm happy to hear.
I can give you some feedback if we feel that would be helpful.
Oh, yes, please.
I was extremely excited to talk to you.
And yeah, I have been looking forward to it since we spoke about a week ago.
So please, as much advice as you're willing to give.
Right. Okay, good.
Well, I appreciate that.
You can't be in a relationship hoping someone's going to change.
She's not going to change.
If you stay, it's going to be more of the same.
And again, I am the last person in the world who's going to tell you whether you should stay or whether you should go.
I don't know.
But I do know that people don't change unless they put massive amounts of work in it.
And to do that, particularly at this later stage in life, they usually have to hit rock bottom in some way.
And, you know, feel like they're dangling over a cliff, and then they can change.
And it takes years and massive amounts of effort and time and therapy and all that kind of stuff, right?
But I don't think she's even particularly in the phase where she's admitting that she has a deep-seated problem that should be worked on.
Yeah, she, I mean, during this last...
Thank you.
You know, cheating incident.
She did say, you know, you should leave me.
I'm terrible.
I don't know what's wrong with me.
I'm... No, that's just the borderline self-pity stuff.
So that's not...
Okay. You know, if she were to say, you know, I have really messed up this family with my impulsivity and my criticisms and cheating and nagging and complaining and, like, this is really toxic.
I'm so sorry.
It's got nothing to do with you.
I'm going to go to therapy.
I'm going to get help.
Yeah, she did kind of say that, except for the get help or go to therapy.
She just said, I'm going to work on myself.
See, she has trouble surrendering power, which is why I asked her about masculine, right?
So she's not very Christian.
Right? Because, of course, who's supposed to be the head of the household?
The husband.
Yeah, you're supposed to be the head of the household, right?
And she's constantly wrestling with you for control.
Mm-hmm.
And she doesn't have much self-control, right?
Otherwise, she wouldn't be this impulsive, right?
Definitely. And nagging and all of this complaining stuff, right?
Mm-hmm.
So, the chaos of her upbringing has taken up, it seems, permanent residence in her soul.
And she doesn't seem to have any consciousness or leverage with which to tackle or challenge it.
So the general phrase, and of course, I'm no psychologist, I just use this in an amateur way, but the general phrase is character logic, which means...
So, what I mean by that is, it's called the observing ego.
So, there's a part of your mind.
For a lot of people, there's a part of your mind that looks at your behavior and evaluates it relative to some external standard, right?
So she might have an external standard, which she would read about in the Bible or she would read about in books, which would say, ladies, if you want your husband to succeed, don't nag him.
What you need to be doing is encouraging and supporting him and believing the best of him.
Now, if she had that standard, then she would have the impulse to nag, but then she would say, oh, no, I've got to stop the nagging.
That's counterproductive.
That's harmful.
That's unchristian.
That's unladylike.
You know, that kind of stuff, right?
And then she would say, well, I'm not going to do that.
But she has to have that external standard.
She has to be dedicated to it, and she has to be willing to override her own instincts.
Does that make sense?
Yes, sir.
Does she do that?
I would say that initially, when she comes to me, she does try to be kind about it.
And I have even expressed to her, that's not really the best way to go about it as far as nagging.
However, it does seem like, unless I'm actively trying to build up our...
Household, I guess, so to speak.
The nagging does eventually come.
So, yeah.
I mean, as far as self-control, I'm not sure if she has much of that.
Right. So, she as a whole only reacts to sort of fairly random stimuli.
I'm going to leave.
Oh, I don't like it out here.
Okay, I'm going to come back.
No, I'm going to leave again.
Oh, this guy's attractive.
Oh, someone's handing me a drink.
I'll drink.
Oh, there's a guy who wants to kiss me.
I'll kiss me.
Oh, I feel bad about being away from my family.
It's all random as hell.
Right? I'm sorry, I don't mean to say right like I'm telling, but this is what I'm getting.
I'm not trying to displace your experience.
Yeah, no, I think that sounds pretty spot on.
So this is like in any way the wind blows scenario.
So this is life with someone who has not got a solid access to morals, standards, and a conscience.
It's an anyway-the-wind-blows kind of situation, right?
Mm-hmm.
Now, the only way that she could get predictable behavior, I think, would be to surrender to your will as the man of the house.
Right, so if you said no nagging, she would say, well, I don't really get it, you know, I don't really internalize that, it doesn't make any sense to me, but he's the man of the house, so no nagging.
Right, because she can't get her own standards of behavior internalized, and she won't submit to your authority, or God's authority, right?
Or the priest's authority, or the Bible's, or Jesus.
She submits to no authority that I can see of, and we all.
I submit to reason and evidence and standards of virtue, and you surrender to the needs of the family and your religious beliefs and so on.
But everyone has to have some way of restraining the wild, greedy, slightly devilish, or sometimes more than slightly devilish, ego.
Does that make sense?
It makes total sense.
So she is not someone...
As far as I can see, who has a way of taming the beast.
Right. And so she does what her impulses say, which means if you tie your happiness to her impulses, your life will be chaos.
If you try to please her, if you try to control her, If you try to influence her, if you try to get her to see reason, until she can say, and maybe she has to, you know, I don't know, hopefully not some disaster, maybe something has to happen where she says,
my way of being is not good.
And I don't think she would, I mean, if she was on the line, and obviously I'm happy to talk to her if she wants to talk, but if she was on the line, and I said to her, what standards do you live by?
That are objective and that you surrender your will to, that you surrender your desires to, right?
And what would she say?
I don't think that...
Yeah, I think you're right.
She has an extremely hard time and problem submitting or giving control to anyone but herself.
Well, it's not anyone.
It's a standard.
Right? So, you guys made vows that she has not taken particularly seriously.
If she's unhappy, then she wants to leave.
If she finds that she's more unhappy being away, then she wants to come back.
But it's not a vow.
It's not, well, I swore before Almighty God to love, honor, respect, and obey my husband, so that's what I have to do.
She just walks through promises, vows, standards, reason, morals.
She just walks through them and does what she wants.
If I understand this correctly.
Yeah, I think that...
I mean...
I think she might even desire that, or at least that's what she says, but like I said...
Sorry, desire what?
Like, she desires...
To submit to a man and a man to take care of?
Okay, so she wouldn't submit to you.
She would submit to God through you.
Sure. Right, because she wouldn't just, you know, go jump off a cliff.
Okay, my husband, like, so God rules the husband, the husband rules the wife.
So that's how God rules the wife, if that makes sense.
So it's not like just, so she has an angry will.
And I guess the question, the big test of this is, does she have a standard of behavior where she has agreed absolutely to a certain standard of behavior, and if you call her on it,
she immediately conforms, right?
So, I mean, I'll just sort of give you an example.
My wife and I, you know, before we got married, we were like, well, no raised voices, right?
Yes. And, you know, obviously we've been married 22 years.
Once or twice we've had to say, oh, remember no raised voices, right?
And we're like, okay, yep, yep, you're absolutely right, right?
If somebody, you know, I follow reason and evidence.
So if there's evidence that goes against my argument, I'm like, okay, I withdraw the argument, right?
So what standard does she have of
that you can call her on and she must conform?
Like when you were a kid, you get a math test, right?
Two and two make, and you have to write in four, right?
That's a standard.
You have to be accurate and correct in four.
The answer that you give on the math test, right?
can you…
Remind her of and have her change her behavior in accordance with.
It's not the marriage vows, right?
Because she left, right?
It's not fidelity, putting no others above you, because she went and slept with two other guys, right?
And then kissed a guy in a parking lot.
So I'm happy to hear, because this would be the test of the theory, right?
That she has an angry will.
That she will not surrender because she was probably so bullied and controlled as a child that she views all self-restraint as abusive.
Because she was so badly managed, directed and controlled as a kid, she views all control as being under the control of her abusive parents.
That's the angry will.
And so, unfortunately, she then inflicts the abuse on others.
Because if you won't restrain yourself, then you end up having to control others, and others end up having to pick up the pieces all the time.
So what standard does she have that you can call her on and she will obey?
To be honest, I'm...
I can't think of one.
One doesn't come to mind where I was able to call her out and have her conform to any standard.
That's kind of why I tried to note specifically that when I was no longer interested in the relationship or at least kind of checked out, Preparing myself for divorce,
that's the moment when she ends up turning back around and trying to tell me, we can make this work.
It's because I'm no longer letting her control me, essentially, because I'm preparing for a life without her.
I actually listened to one of your past...
Chats where you mentioned that you and your wife never raise your voices.
I know you just said that maybe once or twice.
But that just made me laugh and smile.
I was just dumbfounded at that.
What would that be like?
What a flex.
I'm not sure if there is one that I could.
Like, I don't know that there's anything I could say or do that would get her to, you know, conform.
Right. Like, I mean, if she promised to take your name after you got married, then she has to take your name.
She has to take because she has to keep her word, right?
Right. But if you say to her...
Oh, I'm sure you did say to her, listen, you need to take my name as you promised.
What does she say?
She says, I don't really like your last name.
I like my last name better.
But for the record, as far as like when we first got married, she didn't say it then.
She said it like a year ago when that all went down.
But yeah, since then, I just, you know.
I just said, you said you do all these things, including that, and you haven't done any of them.
And usually, when these things come up, even just, I think, only a couple days ago, she approached me and said, oh, you know...
Do you think I've been more helpful lately?
Do you think I've been a lot more present at the house with you and the kids and playing pickleball less and making dinners more often and making much bigger effort?
And I said, yeah, actually, I do think that.
However, that's all just the icing on top.
It's the Sunday itself that's been ruined.
Sorry, it's the what itself that's been ruined?
Like, the Sunday.
I'm just saying, the reason why our relationship is having all these crazy problems isn't necessarily because of that stuff.
Yeah, that's nice, and thank you for doing that, but that's not the crux of the problem, I suppose.
Actually, don't even...
Recall why I mentioned that.
Oh, I was just saying, once something comes to that, once our discussion or argument comes to a point where I'm just like, yeah, but you did this, that kind of ends the discussion.
We don't usually discuss it much further.
Something seems to come up with her where she needs to wander off, I suppose.
But maybe it's because she feels guilty or something like that.
Thank you.
Right, okay.
So, if people won't follow objective rules, then they're going to follow their emotions, right?
Sound logic, I think.
Right. And she's...
In her 30s.
And she doesn't, I think, even acknowledge the fact that she's not following objective rules.
And I assume that she would have the angry will to say that if you try and hold her to objective rules, you're controlling her, or something like that, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Right. And so this is the, I mean, it's, I don't mean to obviously paint her as a Satanist, but it's Luciferian rebellion, right?
That's the angry will, right?
Which is, if you ask someone to restrain themselves for the sake of virtue and love and good behavior, and they get angry at you because you're controlling them, that's a very early phase of development.
I mean, you're a dad, right?
You've got kids.
Sorry, that was kind of redundant.
So, you know that kids go through a phase.
Where they want candy.
Lots of it.
And if you, you know, say no candy, they can get annoyed, right?
Right. And then when they get older, you know, the goal, of course, when the kids get older, is for them to restrain themselves with regards to candy, right?
And to say, well, I shouldn't eat candy.
Because, or not much, right?
Because it's not very good for me, right?
Thank you.
And she's in the phase where if she wants candy, she desperately wants candy, she'll just eat the candy.
And then when she gets sick of the candy, she'll throw the candy away and say, oh, I'll never do this again.
And then later, she gets hungry for candy again, so she'll eat some candy.
But it's an unstable relationship based upon immediate sensation.
Oh, I really want some candy.
I'll eat candy.
I've eaten too much candy.
I'm sick of the candy.
You throw it across the room.
And it doesn't stabilize into any learned behavior that is stable, right?
Because we can only trust people if their behavior is predictable.
And the behavior is only predictable if they have standards that they are willing to follow.
Now, again, None of us follow our standards perfectly, but, you know, we have to have them able to guide us.
But she views the imposition of standards as a form of bullying control, because I assumed that the standards that were imposed upon her as a child were terrible, if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
So... I don't know if you can grow a respect for standards in people.
I've never heard of it.
It doesn't mean it's impossible.
But if she is not willing to surrender her angry will to standards, and I don't imagine that she will, what's the solution?
Sure. Um...
Thank you.
To get out and never look back?
Well, that's one solution.
There's another one.
Oh, are you asking me, like, hmm, what's the solution?
Well, that is one solution.
Yeah. But you have to look back because you share kids, right?
Totally. Now, there's another solution, though, which is to stop taking her moods at all seriously.
Can you be a little bit more elaborate on that?
Or give an example, possibly?
Right. So, she's fussing at you about your career, right?
Yes. Okay, so you roleplay as her, and I'll roleplay as you, and give me her grinding your gears about your career.
Okay. You've been at the same job for years.
Are you even applying anywhere?
Why aren't you studying or working on a certification or training or some way to better yourself?
We're drowning in debt and I want to live life and enjoy ourselves and do great things and we can't do any of that because we don't have any money.
Yeah, you're bothered by that, right?
Tell me more.
It makes me really frustrated that it doesn't seem like you have any ambition or goals and that this is for the betterment of our family and yet you don't seem to be doing anything towards that and instead you're at the gym or playing video games or going to concerts.
Sorry, that's you.
But anyway, sorry, go on.
Thank you.
Pickleball is for my physical health, and it's helped me lose weight and stay healthy.
Yeah. And I love it.
It's my passion.
My gym has nothing to do with that.
But anyway, go on.
I don't mean to get into the weeds here, but yeah, so tell me more about how frustrated you are.
Um...
Am I just supposed to continue being frustrated?
I'm sorry, that's asking me a question.
I mean, just tell me more about how frustrated you are.
Yeah, this is frustrating, and I feel like I've been working for so long, and now it's time for you to pick up your end of the bargain, and I don't want to be the breadwinner, and I don't want to have to work as much, and I want to...
I don't know.
I want you to support my dream of becoming a pro pickleballer.
Right. Yeah, I mean, you're very passionate about that, right?
Right. Right.
Yeah. I mean, do you want to both exchange complaints?
And not about each other, but just things that we're annoyed about?
Because I'm encouraging you to vent, because I know that you'll feel better after you vent.
And what are you going to do about it?
I'm listening to you vent.
Well, are you going to take any of my concerns and do anything about them?
I am doing something about them.
I'm listening to you vent.
So are you going to apply and get a better job and make more money?
Well, I'm listening to you vent.
I mean, you're frustrated, and I get that.
But it's not my job to manage your frustration, right?
Any more than it's my job to digest your food or play pickleball for you, right?
I mean, you have this frustration, and I sympathize with it.
Yeah, money's tight, man.
Yeah, we're in debt.
I get that.
And I will, you know, I'll apply for a job when I feel like applying for a job.
And, you know, I mean, if you wanted to help me apply for a job, you could be more encouraging because the nagging shit is just soul-destroying.
Like, you're absolutely destroying my desire to get a job.
But I do sympathize with the frustration.
So I do want to hear how frustrated you are, but it's not my job to fix it.
Well, it is your job because you're the husband and you're the man and you're supposed to address my concerns and fix them.
Okay, how about this?
How about this, honey?
How about you don't tell me what it is to be a man?
And I'll make a deal with you.
I'll tell you how not...
I won't tell you how to be a woman, okay?
Don't you dare come up here and tell me how to be a man.
You don't get to define masculinity for me.
You're a woman.
I'm not going to tell you how to be a woman.
You don't tell me how to be a man.
How's that for a deal?
deal?
Man, you're frustrating me so bad.
I get it, and I'm happy to hear about your frustration.
Stop trying to flip this onto me.
You're so narcissistic.
Can't you just get a better job?
Okay, how about...
I'll listen to your frustration.
Don't insult me.
If you want me to listen to you, don't insult me, because if you insult me, I don't want to listen to you.
Why would I?
Who wants to listen to someone who's insulting them?
So let's try that again, but without the silly narcissism insult.
I want to be here for you.
Obviously, I do.
I want to listen to your frustration.
I really do.
I care.
But don't insult me.
That's ridiculous, right?
So, no, try again.
Tell me how frustrated you are.
And I'll listen to your frustration.
And I'll sympathize with your frustration.
But it's not my job to fix it.
It's your feelings.
I mean, when I have to pee, I don't ask you to go pee for me.
I get up and do it myself.
So I'm happy to listen to your feelings, but it's not my job to fix them.
Thank you.
Yes. We're a team, so if I have frustrations, we share the frustrations as a team.
I'm sorry, are you telling me now that I have to be frustrated just because you're frustrated?
We're two separate people.
You can have your feelings, I can have my feelings.
I don't have to feel what you feel.
I mean, it's like if you're having period cramps.
I sympathize with that.
That doesn't mean I have to have period cramps.
So, again, just tell me what you feel.
I'm eager to listen.
And, you know, if listening can help, I'm eager to help, but it's not my job to manage your feelings.
Yeah, that's true.
Um...
Yeah, I just, I'm really frustrated because it seems like we've been married for 10 years and our relationship and life together just hasn't.
We've borne much fruit and it's not really going anywhere and we're just snailing by while everyone around us is doing crazy cooler crap and going on awesome vacations and living better lives.
Right. I mean, you had a prediction about our life together and you don't feel like it has played out, right?
Right. Yeah.
I can understand that.
It's totally frustrating.
Everyone has, when they're younger, right?
I mean, I'm not trying to minimize what you're saying, but everyone, when they're younger, is like, I'm going to be an astronaut and a cowboy, and I'm going to drive fire.
Like, everybody has their dreams.
And, you know, we have, obviously, wonderful kids, and we've been married for 10 years, and we're hanging in there.
So, there's a lot of good stuff that's happened.
But, yeah, absolutely, there is a dream that everyone has about how their life's going to be.
And, I mean, it never matches perfectly, right?
But I really do understand that frustration.
I think everyone has that, that life doesn't play out exactly as you expect.
And, you know, some things are better, but some things are worse, for sure.
And I get that frustration too.
Thank you.
Wow, you're so wise.
Thank you so much.
Is she being sarcastic at this point in the roleplay?
Yeah, I guess I'm just not quite sure where to go from here.
But you get the principle, right?
Yeah, totally.
So you, and listen, this is a male thing, so I understand that.
You see a woman venting, and you want to solve the problem and stop her from venting and fix the situation.
She's just venting.
You know, I view it like a toddler.
Like, if a toddler is crying because they didn't get a candy bar, you don't just go and get them a candy bar.
You sympathize, right?
Oh my gosh, I would love a candy bar.
I really wish we could have that candy bar.
I would eat the whole row if I could.
I love candy bars too.
I sympathize, right?
As opposed to, okay, I'll go get you the candy bar, just stop crying, right?
Because that's you managing, rather than sympathizing, with the toddler's emotions.
And she's welcome to have the emotions.
She's not welcome to be insulting or bullying.
And it's not your job.
So if she feels frustrated, yeah, I get that.
I mean, my life hasn't turned out exactly like I dreamed of when I was five years old either, or 10, or 15, or 20. And there's pluses and minuses.
There's some stuff that's better, there's some stuff that's worse.
And that's a conversation that you both can have, right?
Thank you.
But you are trying to manage the feelings of an unstable person whose feelings are changing all the time.
Right. So it's like you're trying to build a castle out of a cloud.
Yeah, and it does seem like a lot of our arguments about the same thing do end up going that way.
Right? I just try to...
I assure her and listen to her frustrations.
Well, and if she complains about your job, right, and you say, let's be frank, I'm probably not going to apply for a new job.
I mean, it's been a couple of years.
Well, why do we get this education then?
Yeah, listen, I understand your frustration.
I really do.
I look at the time, effort, and energy I put into that degree, and I'm kicking myself.
I absolutely share your frustration.
Well, you've got to do something with the degree.
It's like, but I don't really want to right now.
And yelling at me or snarling at me isn't going to change that.
I mean, I want to want to do something with the degree.
I sympathize with your frustration.
I'm frustrated too, but I can't just make myself do things or want to do things.
And I'm curious as to why I'm not doing more with the degree.
I'm curious as to why I'm not applying for more work.
I think that, you know, This isn't anything negative on you, sweetie, but I think that this relationship can be kind of exhausting.
I mean, I'm not blaming you.
I know you feel it too.
But this relationship feels like a second job sometimes.
Because, you know, things are kind of random.
They're up and down.
We're together.
We're not together.
And I just, I don't have the energy.
Like, hopefully, I hope that if our relationship can calm down and get more stable, And enjoyable and predictable, then I'll have more energy.
But right now, I mean, our marriage is hanging on by the skin of its teeth, and I just can't get the energy and focus and drive to go start some new career thing,
right? I just can't.
And it would be foolish for me to try.
Because I'd probably just fail and get fired, and then we'd have no income, right?
So I need a stable platform.
I need a stable base to build on.
And, you know, of course, I hope that our relationship can...
But saying, our relationship is up in the air, you're leaving, you're not leaving, you're divorcing me, you're not divorcing me, and then saying, oh, yes, and if you can also take on a massive new number or amount of job responsibilities, as well as this kind of chaos that's going on in the relationship, I mean, that's not reasonable,
is it?
you you you you you Thank you.
No, I don't think so.
Sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say, I actually had talked with a friend long ago.
He was an old manager of mine at the last company I'd worked at, and he basically said the same thing.
I don't think I could be with somebody if they had cheated on me because I can't be worrying if I'm going to go out there and I'm going to...
Find my purpose and get some value out into the world and be passionate about things and go to work and provide for my family.
I can't be worrying about what my wife's doing at home and the constant stress and drama that that is on my life.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
Right. And if she gets the connection, You can't be ambitious at work if you don't have peace at home.
And that's the number one thing that men want from their relationship, is peace.
And if she were to understand that she is causal, because what she does is she absents herself from the relationship and says, you're not doing what you should.
And that's just a lack of standards, right?
But if she were to ever get the genuine idea that it's her lack of support that is undermining your career ambitions...
then she could get what she wanted.
It's just that she, unfortunately, and you've participated in this, of course, she's developed the habit of getting what she wants by nagging and complaining.
And that's because you accept that as valid and you rush in to try and fix it, but it's bullshit because it's not real.
So you appease her, but you don't change.
And you can't change because she's being too aggressive, and therefore your ambition is...
Is diminished, right?
I mean, a lot of the things that I've been able to achieve in the world, I've been able to achieve because of peace and stability at home.
You can only fight a war on one front well.
Two front wars are always doomed, right?
Right. So, it would be interesting to see what happens if you don't take her emotions personally.
Her upset is not a demand for you to fix it.
That just turns her into a bully.
But of course, you were raised having to fix other people's emotions, right?
If your dad was angry, you had to change, right?
If your dad was sleepy, you had to be quiet, right?
Other people's moods were direct commandments upon you.
Right. And that's an unfortunate lesson to learn, but it's not a real lesson.
People can have their feelings.
And you don't have to fix them.
That's their feelings.
They can have their feelings.
She can be frustrated.
She can even be really angry at you.
You can listen to that, too.
You might even agree.
I'm sure you are frustrated that you haven't been able to use your degree that you spent 10 years getting, right?
So you can share in that and you commiserate with that, but it doesn't...
Don't have her feelings become orders for you because then it's giving her too much power.
And because she doesn't have much self-restraint or any objective rules she's willing to follow, she can't even handle a little bit of power.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think you, you know, hit the nail on the head.
I definitely do.
I do definitely care too much about what she feels or thinks.
And for the record, it's not that I'm not applying.
It's not that I'm not trying to get a better job.
I actually had an interview a couple days ago, so I'm just waiting to hear back.
I've applied for tons of jobs.
Just haven't heard back from anything.
Well, until you get peace at home, it's probably not super wise to take on a big new Set of job responsibilities.
And also, just to be entirely frank, like man-to-man, I'm not sure if you're at risk of divorce, you really want to up your income.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Enough said.
Okay. Yeah, no, I've thought about that.
I guess I had hoped that because it was a brand new income, it wouldn't.
Well, again, I'm not trying to give you any kind of legal advice.
You can talk about that with a lawyer, but that would be a question I would have, too.
All right.
Is there anything else that you wanted to mention as we start closing the garage door, Simpson style?
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, no, I really appreciate all your thoughts and words.
And I guess just going back to like my very first little...
You know, points in the thing I had sent, the prompt.
What... Do you have any, like, inklings or ideas about, like, why it is that I'm not able to...
Like, why didn't I just go, oh, she cheated on me, that's it, we're done.
Like, what is my desire to hang around?
Why... Having this, like you said, pattern recognition.
Even though I can see the pattern...
Why is my desire to leave not 100% versus 70%?
Sorry, you mean now or back in the day?
Now. Well, I mean, you've already taken her back and had kids with her after she cheated you within a couple of hours of first dating.
Yes. So the question isn't now.
Now is a shadow cast by prior decisions, right?
Which is she knows that she can cheat on you and you'll take her back.
I mean, she knew that from literally the first day where she cheated on you with her ex-lover, right?
So, you have trained her that she can cheat on you, and you will take her back, and I assume that she cheated on you because she already knew that, because she'd been able to study you for years ahead of time.
Yeah, perhaps.
No, definitely I've had that thought come across my mind, for sure.
That's a whole other complicated topic which has a lot to do with your mother not being confronted by you.
So because you haven't confronted your mother about the complete mess of the household, which she's largely responsible for.
I mean, certainly your father is responsible for taking the drugs, but your mother is responsible for choosing him and keeping him around, right?
And not explaining things to you and not Getting an intervention and all of that.
So you can't raise your standards of behavior for anyone if you can't do it with your parents first.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I mean, in my view, your mother and your father betrayed you as children.
And as a child, you couldn't hold them to account.
As an adult, you've been an adult for 13 years, you've never held them to account.
So how are you supposed to hold your girlfriend to account?
Yeah, I guess I was just following the lead of the family and just not saying or doing anything about it and just brushing it under the rug and keeping my distance, I suppose.
Right. And, you know, so I think, you know, an honest conversation with your mother for sure, maybe your dad too.
It's probably in order because if you fail that conversation, it's hard to be assertive with your wife.
Right. All right.
Does that make sense?
Yes, sir, it does.
All right.
Well, I appreciate the conversation today.
I absolutely wish you the very best.
If there's anything else I can do to help, I hope you'll reach out.
And I also hope that you'll reach out and tell me how things are going.
All right.
Excellent. Yeah, I definitely will.
How would you like me to reach out?
Oh, just ping me on Skype.
That way I can keep track of it all.
All right, excellent.
Yeah, I will, and I'll have to listen to more of your content, because like I said, I'd listen to some just to get a feel for how it would go, and I'd learn some things in the meantime.
And a useful convo for you tonight, is that right?
Oh, yes.
Beautiful. Much, much better than I had expected, and yeah.
Better than any other conversation I'd had about it, for sure.
Fantastic. All right, well, keep me posted and have a great night.
Yes, you as well.
Thank you so much again.
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