NatCon 2025, organized by the Edmund Burke Foundation with Orthodox Jewish leaders Yoram and Rafi Hazoni, faces critique for framing Muslims as existential threats while labeling Jews and Catholics as co-belligerents in a Christian American project. The host challenges this rhetoric, noting theological contradictions between Catholic and Jewish beliefs regarding Jesus, and questions the foundation's sponsorship of paid trips to Israel for right-wing leaders like Cross Politic members to promote propaganda against LGBT issues. While Senator Eric Schmidt claims America was founded by Christian pilgrims and H-1B visas undercut wages, the episode warns that NatCon's attempt to establish "Judeo-Christian nationalism" may fail as younger generations increasingly reject both Israel and these frameworks. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Why We Ask for Reviews00:14:21
Leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform.
I get it.
It's annoying.
Everybody asks, but I'm going to tell you why.
When you give us a positive review, what that does is it triggers the algorithm so that our podcast shows up on more people's news feeds.
You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.
We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.
NatCon 2025 just ended.
That's National Conservatism, their 2025 conference.
That was just.
Last week.
And there are things that are encouraging.
There are guys on the right wing who are taking stands and saying things that honestly would have been unheard of even just a couple years ago.
However, there is a growing concern that I have when it comes to NatCon about a few things, but one in particular.
And this is what we're going to highlight in this episode.
We'll show you clips, we will show you quotes.
But one of the reoccurring themes that I've noticed from watching some of the material from this most recent conference is as follows.
That there are Muslims who are a major threat to the United States.
I agree.
And then there are Jews and Catholics that can be co belligerents with this distinctly Christian American project.
Now, what I don't like about that is I don't like that Jews and Catholics are being roped into the same category.
I would prefer to have three categories, it's a throwaway line.
You may not notice in some of these speeches, but it is intentional and it is present and it is a reoccurring phrase.
You'll hear again and again from NatCon there are Muslims, they are a threat, right?
Their religion, their ideology, their customs, their way of life is wholly incompatible with Western civilization, with America.
Again, I agree.
But then the throwaway line, the little bit of fine print that they add on is, But Jews and Catholics, there's a place for them.
We can be co belligerents.
And what I want to ask is this how are Jews and Catholics being placed by Christians?
It's one thing if these are guys on the right wing who are Jews themselves, right?
They do this, but we should expect it.
But why are Christian ministers and Christian leaders participating in NatCon and regurgitating the same rhetoric that Jews and Catholics are in the same co belligerent category?
I understand that for those of us who are part of the Reformed tradition, that the Reformed tradition has a long history of not being very fond of Catholics for legitimate reasons, theological reasons.
I believe that Rome is in great, great error, theological error, and it matters.
And Reformed ministers and Protestants should talk about these things, as I have several times.
But at the end of the day, here's the reality, and Reformed guys will hate to hear this.
But it is true.
Catholics worship the triune God.
They believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal begotten Son of God.
They hold to substitutionary atonement, penal substitutionary atonement.
Meanwhile, Jews believe that Jesus is a blasphemer currently in hell.
How are these two groups in the same category?
If we can bifurcate Muslims, and I think we should, from Catholics and even from Jews, I think that we need to distinguish Jews from Catholics.
I believe that Catholics, culturally and politically, are and should be viewed as co belligerents to a Christian American project.
Absolutely.
Again, culturally and politically viewed as co belligerents.
That does not mean I'm going to have a Catholic.
As an elder in my church or preaching in my church.
But in the realm of culture and politics, I believe that Roman Catholics can and should be treated as co belligerents in culture and politics in this restoration of America.
Jews, however, are a different story.
They are not on the same team, not culturally, not politically, and certainly not religiously.
If we are going as Christians, Protestants, and especially Reformed Protestants, To be upfront and clear and even vehement about the theological distinctions of which there are many and they are significant between ourselves and Catholics,
then we must be at least stronger in our rhetoric towards Jews and particularly the Jewish ideology, Judaism as a religion.
I'll end with this with the cold open.
I find it odd.
That many Reformed ministers apply to Catholics particular scriptures that were written by the Apostles about Jews.
I'll say that again.
I find it odd.
I find it strange.
I find it even suspicious that many Reformed Christians will apply scriptures to Catholics that were written by the Apostles about Jews.
Who is the Antichrist but he who denies that Jesus came in the flesh?
Catholics, say what you will, with all the theological distinctions that we hold, Catholics do not deny that Jesus came in the flesh.
But Jews do.
They do.
Let's get into it.
We're back.
We're back.
So, I don't know about many of our listeners, but I can just speak for myself that NatCon and kind of the understanding of the individuals, the organizations, the money, and kind of their interests, this is really a pretty new thing.
There's a vacuum that's come about in the last five years or so that the neocons used to fill.
For one, neoconservative, the old kind of guard, the Billy Crystals of the old day, they're getting older, right?
Nikki Haley, the Bushes.
We're not going to see a Bush dynasty revolution with Jeb Bush coming back in 2028 and making a serious run for presidency.
So, you have.
Dead and gone.
Praise the Lord.
So you have a vacuum left by new conservatism.
And even still, you have just broader conservatism in general.
It's giving way to a new muscular brand of right wing politics that in many ways still has to be defined.
In 2019, a new player emerged to attempt to fill this vacuum Joel Levin.
No, I'm just kidding.
Joel Levin.
We were filling that vacuum even prior to it.
But in 2019, the Edmund Burke Foundation was started.
The Edmund Burke Foundation, one of his chairmen, you'll probably be very familiar with his name, Yoram Hazoni.
There's a number of other individuals on the board, and they begin running NatCon conferences.
There's been about five of them so far, and they're aiming to kind of fill a new conservative style of thought in Washington.
Again, you have neoconservatism, which is on the down, going down.
You have MAGA, which is ascendant, but MAGA doesn't have an intellectual component.
And so, national conservatism as a movement, as an idea, as a think tank, as a conference, as a collection of thinkers, is really aiming to, and especially with this administration, come in and fill that role.
We'll be the intellectual vanguard for.
Anti immigration, for instance, will be the intellectual vanguard for protection of religious speech and things like that.
So they've come in and they've attempted to kind of brand themselves as that.
And to be clear, NatCon casts a very wide tent.
You would have guys that we've had on the show before that were at NatCon, that we'd have a lot of agreement with, all the way to rabbis that would be there and would be speaking.
You have JD Vance, who has spoken there in the past.
Missouri Senator Eric Schmidt spoke here this year.
We'll talk a little bit more about that later.
So it's a big tent, but you have to notice what they're trying to do.
They're trying to brand themselves as the intellectual conservative arm.
And in some ways, we talked about this a couple weeks ago on our episode about the new right.
They're kind of trying to get ahead of some of the people like you, Joel, and others who are speaking, who are gaining an audience.
But your ideas, if carried out and brought to fulfillment, for example, a Christian nation, well, a lot of individuals in the Edmund Burke Foundation, they kind of realize, wait, that wouldn't actually go too well for us.
Yoram Hazoni, just as a matter of fact, he's an Orthodox practicing Jew who lives in Israel, but spends a decent amount of time in the United States.
Another one on the board, Rafi Hazoni.
He is the executive director of the Herzl Institute, so a Jewish think tank, sponsors trips to Israel.
Josh Hammer, one of the research editors.
About half the board there is probably Orthodox Jews.
It's not derogatory, that's just a statement of who they are.
Absolutely.
That is what it is.
And so, of course, they have a vested interest.
But just to broaden it out a little bit more, so you have some of these guys, and they're not just speakers, right?
The lineup of speakers was like 60 to 100 people.
You think our conference had a lot of guys?
My goodness.
This was like 60 to 100 people.
There's multiple breakout sessions and things like that.
And some of the guys who are Speaking of friends, you know, people that we appreciate.
Calvin Robinson.
Calvin Robinson, yes.
God bless him.
He was there.
But you're talking about these are our members of the board.
These are the premier leaders of this organization.
And not only that, but this is what people need to understand.
This is what they do.
I'm just going to say it out loud.
My goodness.
I'm going out of town, and I'm glad for the safety of my family.
Not so much because of what I'm about to say, although it probably will get me in trouble, but some things that I said earlier this week.
But you have these leaders, but it's not just these individual Jewish leaders, they are regularly sponsoring and funding, fully funded trips to Israel.
And they're taking and targeting any kind of up and coming significant individual leader, potential leader on the right wing.
And they take them on a trip to Israel.
And these guys, it's their prerogative, they're not held at gunpoint that they have to kiss the wall.
And wear the tiny hat.
Some of them do, some of them don't.
But they are going on this.
They're getting strategic.
They're generally not asking people now at this point.
Correct.
Because it's become a negative thing.
Because they realize here's the picture.
Exactly.
So they're getting strategic.
Well, we just want you to go to the Holy Land, right?
The place where Jesus walked.
And they go on this trip and they spend a week or 10 days, week and a half there.
And they're meeting with certain people.
And they're trying to cast Israel in a positive light in the minds and hearts of some of these young, up and coming.
Right wing leaders.
And I'm going to name, I think it's just, it's a great example.
It's a specific and very accurate example.
I think it should be named.
So, Cross Politic, Toby Sumter, and the Cross Politic guys, Gabe Wrench and Chot Knox.
Chot Knox did not go, actually.
Okay, he did not go.
Good for him.
So, those are the three guys on the show with Cross Politic.
And I want to publicly say, I love all three of these men.
They've been a blessing to me in the past.
We don't have the closeness of relationship.
Presently, that we once did.
We have kind of, you know, gone separate ways primarily over the issue of Israel.
Everybody knows it's not a secret, and I'm not going to speak about it in a disrespectful way.
But everybody knows that Moscow and Apologia and Ezra Institute got together and they formulated the Antioch Declaration that was specifically against guys like me.
And I think it's fair to say, particularly me, with.
A whole instance that blew up last year in 2024.
And so, ever since then, we've kind of parted ways.
And a lot of the strong attacks have died down.
Praise God.
I don't want to be at enmity with any of these people.
And, like I said, in particular to Cross Politic, Gabriel Wrench was for a time on the board of Right Response Ministries.
And so, I love Gabriel, I love Toby, and I love Chalk Knox.
That said, I'm not going on any sponsored trips to Israel.
I give you my promise to the listeners, the right response.
And here's the thing it's not just, oh, well, is it a sin to go on a trip to Israel?
Of course not.
No.
But when you're paid to go, and then here's the big thing, and you come back and you do a full episode on Israel, and then you say that Israel, and this is a quote from Cross Politics episode as soon as they return from the trip.
And I quote, that Israel is the front line against LGBT barbarism, was the quote.
Israel is the front line, right?
You're talking about a nation that is the capital of the world for protecting pedophiles.
This is facts.
You can look it up.
You're talking about Tel Aviv, which is one of the largest gay pride events annually in the world.
You can look up the numbers.
Tel Aviv, 25% of the population, which I believe is about half a million, about 400,000, 500,000, 25% identifies as LGBT.
So you're talking about the capital city where a quarter of them are gay.
And you're saying that nation is the front line, tip of the spear against LGBT barbarism.
Now, another statement that's kind of similar language, right?
Different nouns, different subjects, but similar language, similar concept was made approximately two years ago.
And maybe you guys will remember it.
Moral Insanity in America00:11:27
The statement was this White evangelicals are the lone bulwark against the moral insanity in America.
And people from Moscow.
He was like a wise man that said that.
A wise man, statistically proven.
He was talking about politically speaking in terms of their voting power.
And all this is in the tweet.
He made a thread talking about Stephen Wolf, Dr. Stephen Wolf.
God bless him.
We're doing a special series with him right now on Fridays with our Friday special, all on Christian nationalism.
He posted that and he was raked over the coals and dragged, as the kids say.
They're going to drag you.
And they did for months and months and months.
And Moscow participated in that.
His own publisher, the publishing house of Doug Wilson in Moscow, Cannon Press, came out and retweeted the day that Stephen Wolfe said, white evangelicals are the lone bulwark against the moral insanity of America.
They retweeted it, his own publisher, and he's the best selling book from their publishing house, The Case for Christian Nationalism.
They retweeted their best selling author and said, This is dumb.
Right?
And certain individuals from Cross Politic came out publicly.
And said, This is dumb, or something to that effect.
So let's just get it straight, real quick.
White evangelicals are the lone bulwark against the moral insanity of America abortion, transgenderism, gay marriage, all these kinds of things.
And Stephen Wolf puts in the tweet, in the thread, the voting stats, the voting demographics of white evangelicals and what they vote against.
It was clear, it was a political tweet.
Talking about politically being a bulwark in terms of their vote, this demographic is, it stands alone as a bulwark against the moral insanity of America.
True, true.
And it was mocked.
And not just mocked, but it was accused by some as being sinister and wicked.
And then the statement is made, I believe this happened last week Israel is the tip of the spear, the word was front line, tip of the spear.
So white evangelicals, a shield.
The premier shield against the moral insanity of America.
Israel is the premier offense against LGBT barbarism.
Israel, capital city, a quarter of them are gay, right?
One of the biggest LGBT pride parades in the world and harboring more pedophiles with impunity than any other nation in the world.
And you look at transgenderism.
Who pushed transgender ideology?
Who was it?
Who were the authors of some of these books that were being burned in the 1930s, Weimar, Germany?
Jews.
And so to say, not just to go on the trip, I'm going to go on the trip, but to go on a paid trip.
And there are strings, guys.
It's not formal.
I'm sure it's not written in blood.
Who knows?
But I don't think it's written in blood.
But there is an informal understanding, a catch.
There is a catch.
And the catch is, we are, you're on the right wing and you are showing promise and on the rise.
And we would just like to, you know, pay five, six, seven, eight, $10,000 to take you on a, you know, seven to 10 day trip to Israel where you may or may not, you know, kiss the wall and wear the little hat.
And we're going to, you know, show you how great Israel is and how they really are America's greatest ally.
And then I'm sure it's just a coincidence that you come back from that trip and the week after you're saying Israel is the front line against LGBT barbarism, which is.
A bald faced lie.
It is false on its face.
So, all that, and that trip, I believe, was with Jorm Herzoning, who is the head of NatCon.
That's how it all ties in.
I was going to say, I've never been on the trip, nor has anyone said this is what is done.
But I can imagine with a trip like that, too, that you would know if you have Christians, there's a specific way to appeal to them.
So, instead of coming out and being like, and here's how we defend against this and that, I very much so the trip could have been framed of.
And here's where Jesus would have walked.
They themselves, Yoram, for example, being an Orthodox Jew, not believing in Jesus, but hey, you're a Christian.
Here's where Jesus walked.
And maybe he does.
You believe he rose from the dead.
Who knows?
Exactly.
So he probably can say all of those things, but you have to understand there is not just out of the goodness of their heart groups that, oh, there's no strings attached.
We would love to pay $5,000 for you and your team and your wife to come visit and we show you these sites.
That's actually kind of the subversive nature of it.
Again, I don't literally know what Yoram or other tour guides are telling them, but there's a very specific reason.
And then to come back and act like this wasn't propaganda.
Israel is very famous for propaganda.
There's a reason in law we have recusation.
So is America.
But yeah.
So is America.
But we did good propaganda.
I mean, the Cold War, come on.
But there's a category in law for recusal.
I got money.
I'm not impartial.
I have a relationship to the judge.
I'm not impartial.
So it speaks to a naivety, exactly, to go, not just to go, because, hey, there's good guys that have gone, but to go and then come back and pretend as though, man, just this was out of the goodness of their heart and all the things they showed me, wow, they perfectly agreed with my Christian worldview.
Well, maybe there's a specific reason if you're feeling like, wow, Israel's on the defense for Western moral values.
Maybe they showed you those parts of it.
Did they show you maybe the other part where they're starving children in Gaza?
Did they show you the parts where psychological warfare, the Israelis in the West Bank would blast pornography against Muslim fighters to demoralize them and to make them feel scandalized?
Or where groups of Israelis are spitting on Christian evangelists as they share the gospel?
People tell me that wasn't part of the Torah.
Probably.
I don't know what happened on the Torah, but I can imagine that's probably how it went down.
And Christians have to be, have their eyes wide open and say, Wait a second, I can kind of see you want something from me and this is what you're trying to get.
And then to say, if this isn't true, guys, I'm just not going to push it.
And be willing to look a little farther and say, okay, you've told me you don't, you know, you're for Western values and traditional marriage.
Not everybody goes on that trip.
Is it a pride parade?
Right.
Not everybody goes on that trip and then comes back and, like, cross politics, says something, you know, positive and I think foolishly positive, like Israel, you know, being the tip of the spear, the front line against LGBT barbarism.
But what I have noticed is that guys go on that trip and if they don't come back and say something positive about Israel, What they do is they do stop saying things negative about Israel.
And then a few months later, they get an invitation that I don't get, right, to go and speak at NatCon.
Let's play a clip from NatCon because you mentioned earlier Catholics and Jews, and we can get into it.
And so here's Douglas Wilson.
He gave a talk on false gods, on the golden calf.
And so this is specifically what you're kind of referencing.
It was kind of present throughout NatCon, it was referenced a couple of different times.
But here it is best encapsulated as he speaks about America as a Christian nation and Catholics and Jews in it.
And it is simply a historical fact that America was deeply Christian and Protestant at the founding.
And third, in the meantime, it is not xenophobic to object to the immigration policies of those who want to turn the Michigan-Ohio border into something that resembles the India-Pakistan border.
That kind of nonsense from our utopian social engineers is actually the root of our current set of practical dilemmas.
While remaining Protestant in her ethos, Protestant America did successfully adapt to the presence of Catholics and Jews, and nothing succeeds like success.
But millions of Muslims without any commitment to or mechanism of assimilation is another matter.
Well, what do you think, Wes?
There's a lot of talk about a letter that Washington writes.
He writes to a couple Hebrew congregations after the Revolutionary War.
And one of the things that he does, and we just have to be honest about what he does, I'm not going to put propaganda on you on the other side of things here, is he makes very clear that his goal for America is to be much more welcoming and inclusive.
And he's writing to Hebrew congregations saying, in the America that we envision, we want no, give nothing to, to, We don't want to give anything to prejudice.
We want you to be fully included, he says.
He wants Jews to not move from merely being tolerated, but being included in the United States.
And different guys, you saw us with Kevin DeYoung and the president of Hillsdale College, you would kind of probably, Doug is having that in the back of his mind.
There is a bit of a strain there with the founding fathers for inclusion.
But if you look back and you zoom out a little bit farther, I would at least say this of Washington.
He's in a context where they're trying very much so to get people on board with the federalized, you can think of the Federalist Papers.
On board with the federal vision.
And so some of this appeal is rhetorical.
Now, whether it's rhetorical or not, we do have to be honest and say there is nothing of the American system.
So Doug says Catholics and Jews were integrated.
And it's true, definitely, to a degree.
Catholics, as far as judgeships, as far as politicians, as far as even just having, I almost said synagogues, having their own churches and all that, that certainly was the case.
But we can't say that very much so at all of Jews, of Hebrew synagogues.
There was some toleration, yes.
But as far as large scale participation, to pretend as though that ranked at the same scale, the same degree that integration of Catholics would, I'm aware of the letters.
I'm aware of what Washington said.
I'm aware of what Jefferson said when writing about Article VI in the Constitution, where it refers to religious tests of office.
I get that those are there.
But to pretend as though to the same scale they both participated in, it's just completely not true.
And it's being done to shift the frame, and we saw this a lot at NatCon, to shift the frame to Muslims.
To shift the frame and say, hey, listen, this is not the enemy.
Catholics are not your enemy.
Jews are not your enemy.
Islam, the caliphate state, that's what's coming to America.
But I think Jews, like practicing Muslims, sorry, like 1% of the United States.
So they're shifting the view and saying, no, no, no, this group of people is the problem.
And these ones, they've always participated, always been part of the fabric, always our foundation.
But you look at the three, and we have our problems with Catholics, but there's one of them, and you say, wait a second, they didn't participate at all.
They didn't fight in the revolution, they didn't contribute.
There was no rabbi praying over the Constitution as they formed it.
They actually didn't have a partner framework.
It was mainly immigration in the early 1900s from different programs, and especially after World War II.
They were much later a part of the fabric of our nation.
And you're actually trying to sell us something that's kind of subversive.
And I can't help but think again, NatCon, Edmund Burke Foundation, that's who puts it on.
I mean, you have rabbis, you have the president, Yoram Zoni, president of the Herzl Institute.
Their interest, just derogatory, is going to be guys, I need you to carve out a space.
For Jews in American public and political life.
So we should just say that.
And if you're going to come out and you're going to give us an unhistorical fact and pass it off as truth to that purpose, of course people are going to look at you and say, well, hold on a second.
It seems like you're carrying water for a specific narrative, and a specific narrative that has potential to do a lot of damage.
Carving Space for Jews00:06:15
Well said.
All right, let's go to our first commercial break, and then we will be right back.
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I am going to give some positives from NatCon, though.
Senator Eric Schmidt, I think, was one of the bright stars at the time there.
I mean, this is the U.S. Senator from Missouri.
You have 50 senators in the Senate.
This is not a position that is low grade.
I mean, this is something, these are high profile individuals.
And what you see here, I'm going to read some quotes from him, is Senator Eric Schmidt, a Republican senator from Missouri, repeating our talking lines.
And I think this matters.
You know, there was a time where if you were neoconservative, you were Mitt Romney, you were Nikki Haley, there was a time where you could pass off and kind of get away with the rhetoric of Reagan, the rhetoric of Clinton, even in the 80s and the 90s.
And people would tolerate it that you could go to a donor dinner, that you could go to an event, you could go to a campus, that you could speak, you could say all these things.
And people wouldn't bat an eye.
But I think that time is actually changing.
And that is incredible.
US senators that are conservative now realize, whether they believe it or not, and I think he really does believe it, but they're realizing that there's a time, the time where you could refer to an America as an idea or an American as someone that anyone born anywhere could become, that that time has actually ended.
We're going to get to H 1Bs, but I want to start with.
Something incredible.
Senator Schmidt's talk was, What is an American?
And he said this We Americans are the sons and daughters of the Christian pilgrims that poured from Europe's shores to baptize a new world in their ancient faith.
Our ancestors were driven here by destiny, possessed by urgent and fiery conviction, by burning belief, devoted to their cause and to their God.
He talks elsewhere that America was a gift in the Constitution you have, we the people, in order to secure a more perfect union for us and our posterity.
That America was something gifted to us from our ancestors for preservation.
It's not an idea, it's not a proposition, it's not something you assent to intellectually.
It's a people, distinct people living in a distinct place.
And again, you have US senators at national conferences with a lot of eyes on them.
The Guardian was covering it, other news outlets.
They're getting up there and they're saying, hey, everything you heard about America for the last 50 years, you can become it and you can become it.
You can become an American.
No, that's not true.
This is what an American is.
Yeah, praise God.
The change is palpable.
Things are moving in the right direction.
And I guess all we're saying is, you know, because I don't want to sit here and be autistic.
I don't want to sit here and say NatCon is terrible.
There's a lot of good things.
I've seen things from that con.
There's a lot of good things that we agree with, that we ourselves have said.
And there's guys, again, that we're personal friends with, that we know behind the scenes.
And we can attest to their character that they're good guys.
They really are.
And so, yeah, so I'm grateful.
But I think with any good thing, there are always going to be individuals who are thinking that they lick their finger, put it in the wind, they can see which direction the wind is blowing.
And then try to run out and get ahead of it.
And I do think that there is some of that sense with NatCon that this is the future of America.
These are the future leaders of America.
These are the future virtues and ideas of America.
And if there's going to be any place for us, then we're going to need to be a part of this project or even leading this project.
And that's the concern.
And so, you know, I stated it at the.
Outside of this episode in the cold open, but I'll state it again.
One of the ways that I see that happening, right, for people to simply say, like, hey, you know, these guys are going to be in charge.
And so, you know, we want to be on their good side.
That's a pretty natural instinct.
I understand that.
Rejecting Christ to Build Civilization00:05:20
But any rhetoric or any maneuver that would be deceitful in order to achieve that end, that's where we have to draw the line.
And I think that at least at bare minimum, one.
One form of rhetoric that I noticed being used multiple times over is this idea that Catholics and Jews are kind of one in the same.
Obviously, distinctions in their beliefs and these kinds of things, but they're treated as they're both equal co belligerents.
So a Catholic is no closer to a Protestant Christian, to WASP, than a Jew.
And I'm looking at that and I'm thinking, how in the world?
Do you square that round hole?
How in the world would you even begin to make the argument that the distance between us as Protestants and Catholics is equal to the distance between us and Jews who don't, not only do they not believe Jesus is God, but they believe that Jesus is an enemy of God, that he is a blasphemer and a liar and currently being punished in hell?
Say what you will about Catholics.
But Catholics don't think that.
Catholics don't say that.
And again, that just bothers me when I see Reformed ministers even pointing their theological guns in their rhetoric and in their sermons against Catholics and using the very scriptures.
And that's not to say that there can't be some kind of application.
I'm aware of how scripture works.
Scripture, R.C. Sproul used to say this any given text of scripture only has one faithful interpretation, but it can have virtually limitless faithful applications.
And those applications can also be in varying arenas and to varying degrees.
So, to take a particular verse in scripture that was written about Jews at the time by the apostles, that was the authorial intent, and to apply it to Catholics in a particular arena where they're wrong in their doctrine and saying something that's untrue, I'm not saying that that's not fair game.
I'm aware of the Reformed tradition, there's plenty of that.
And I think it can be done in ways that are fair, and there are ways that it can be done that are unfair.
So, I'm not saying That you can never apply some of these scriptural texts to Catholics.
But if you're a Reformed minister who is only applying these scriptural texts to Catholics, and I never hear from you those scriptures being applied to the very group of people they were written about, namely Jews, right?
If you're a Reformed minister who is regularly saying that the Roman Catholic Church is a synagogue of Satan, but then there are actual synagogues, That you never reference being synagogues of Satan, Jewish synagogues, then I'm highly suspicious.
I'm highly suspicious.
In E. Michael Jones, the revolutionary spirit, I forget who he's quoting, but you have a Jewish rabbi and he said, There are many things that are true of some parts of Judaism, but the literal central thing that you have to hold is we reject Christ.
We can disagree on the Sabbath and you can be, for example, a liberal or a progressive Orthodox Jew.
You can be just the Torah.
You can do all these different things and hold all of these different versions.
But if you could say the core thing about the Christian is the acceptance of Christ, Christian, Christ, little Christs.
Well, the key tenant of Judaism, like we just have to be honest, is I reject Christ.
A rejection of Christ.
Even as warm, even as friendly as Yoram may be, as Josh Hammer, as all these guys, and nothing against them personally.
If you're linking arms with them, we want to build civilization.
Like you have to understand they're fundamental.
We're going to build civilization with those who reject the Logos.
They're rejecting Christ.
We reject Christ.
We reject his revelation.
We reject him as the one, like you said, the Logos who orders and makes the world, which fundamentally, if you oppose that, you'd be anti Logos.
That's explained some of the Jewish tendencies towards democracy and liberalism, especially in the 60s and the 70s.
I fail to see how you could build a civilization.
And what do we do with this civilization?
How does it work?
What's at the foundation?
Well, Jesus, get him out.
You can't do that.
That's a house built on the sand.
And so it's, hey, if you get an invitation, I think you would do this.
If you got an invitation to go to a conference and you're told you can say anything you want, you can speak about Christ.
I would go.
You would.
I would go.
You would go.
I would never be invited back.
I would go.
So some of these guys have got the invitation and maybe they went and they spoke boldly.
But at a practical level, if we're going to link arms, oh, he's our guy.
Wait a second.
This guy hates Christ.
And you need to be honest with it.
I'm partnering with him.
I'm a Christian and he hates Christ and I'm still doing it.
So just be honest.
And again, that's not hard feelings, but just, yep, I recognize that that that's the case.
And I'm choosing to partner with him.
That's what I'm going to do.
Be honest.
Be honest.
Well said.
Let's go to our last commercial break and then we'll be right back with some concluding thoughts.
Backwards Planning with Covenant Eyes00:02:39
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Final Thoughts on Judeo Christianity00:05:36
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All right.
Well, we talked about this a couple weeks ago, but there's a battle right now trying to say who has control of the right wing.
I think of the New York Times article, even talking about Nick Fuentes, the Guardian article that was talking about NatCon.
And right now, you have a struggle.
You have MAGA, and that's Trump, and that's Vance, and that's for better or worse.
That's what MAGA is.
Trump is kind of at the end of his term.
He's not going to run again.
He's getting old.
So MAGA is what it is.
But they have a quickly emerging group of young men that are to the right of them.
And NatCon does very much so seem like the containment strategy.
They're recognizing MAGA isn't the movement that it was anymore, that the next stage of candidates that are people that are going to be running, this is local and federal.
They're going to be more to the right.
And so, NATCON seems like the containment strategy to kind of bring them in.
And so I'm interested, what are your thoughts on what happens with, you're talking about at this point, millions of young men that are getting more and more radicalized, millions of men that are now middle aged.
I'm a millennial, you're a millennial.
They're accruing power, they have money, they want to see certain things happening.
So they're getting a lot of traction.
And you could see these different attempts one way or another.
Well, we'll go to Israel so you don't repeat this narrative, or come to NatCon, we'll get you hooked up with some Judeo Christianity, I mean, national conservatism.
What do you think kind of is the play?
And are they able to contain this growing movement?
No, I don't think so.
I think that the cat is out of the bag when it comes to America's relationship with Israel and also theologically when it comes to things like dispensationalism.
I mean, if anyone deserves credit, it was an unlikely individual, but Tucker Carlson laid dispensationalism in its grave in that interview with Ted Cruz, Tel Aviv Ted, not that long ago.
People, young people, pretty much everybody under the age of 45.
Is pretty much done with Israel and they're done with Judeo Christianity.
And no, I don't think that you're going to be able to curb their enthusiasm.
And so I think that that's some of the attempts that we're seeing right now.
But no, I think that it's inevitable.
I think it's just a matter of time that as young people get older and, like you said, as they accrue influence and power and money and status and all those kinds of things, and they become the leaders of tomorrow, I do not think that the gravy train for Israel.
Is coming to a screeching halt.
And I think that Israel is very much aware of this.
Yeah.
Very much aware of this and is actively doing PR in real time, trying to, you know, hedge the tide.
But I don't think it'll be successful.
Yeah.
In many ways, you kind of referenced it before, but NACCON may be, in a sense, the final boss, not that we're opposed to everyone that ever has stood on the stage.
Of course not.
But there very much so may be that last kind of halfway house between what would be a true, I would hope, Christian right wing.
Movement that looks to restore traditional values, a Christian sense of culture, and everything like that.
NACON may be the final stop.
Like, even listen to this again from Senator Eric Schmidt.
This is on immigration.
And you don't know how long we fought to get this rhetoric coming from Congress.
He said this For decades, we have heard that so called high skilled immigration was an urgent necessity.
The H 1B visa, for example, was sold as a way to keep America, quote, globally competitive, close quote.
Of course, we do not have an interest in attracting the truly exceptional few, the very best and brightest in the world.
But that's not how programs like the H 1B have actually functioned.
Instead, they've imported a vast new labor force from abroad, not to fill jobs Americans can't or won't do, but to undercut American wages, replace American workers, and transfer entire industries into the hands of foreign lobbies.
And there's one kind of final thing Catholics, Jews, Protestants.
One of these doesn't belong.
One of them does not belong.
Right.
Yep.
So there's a lot of good things that are coming out of NatCon.
But that is a concern.
You've heard it here from us.
That is our concern.
That is our prayer that the Lord would purify the generation of leaders that are emerging on the scene.
Tomorrow's leaders in our country, future politicians, future business owners.
We're praying that they would be distinctly Christian and that they would not compromise with Judaism, that it would not be the hyphenated heresy, that it would not be Judeo Christianity, but it really would be Christian nationalism.
And I am concerned that.
That there are some individuals that are nationalists, to be sure, but they are attempting to ensure ultimately a Judeo Christian nationalism for which I have no interest.
I want it to be explicitly and unapologetically the Lord Jesus Christ.
I want it to be Christian nationalism.
So that's the episode for today.
We hope that you guys have been blessed by it, and Lord willing, we will see you guys next week.