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Oct. 21, 2025 - Jim Bakker Show
28:19
The Jim Bakker Show with Jonathan Miller
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Hurt People Hurt Others 00:09:28
Welcome to the Jim Baker Family Show.
Today, our special guest is Pastor Jonathan Miller.
Our co-host today is Reverend Mondo de la Vega.
And now, here's your host, Pastor Ricky Baker.
Hello, friends.
You're watching the PTL Television Network.
It's an honor you have tuned in with us today.
They used to say back in the olden day, Mondo, don't touch that dial.
Why you look at me when you say that?
There's no dials anymore.
Don't swipe away from that screen.
Don't move on to whatever else you have DDR'd we have with us today.
Pastor Jonathan Miller, based out of Orlando, Florida.
And we're going to be talking about his brand new book, Healing Hurts.
Mondo, if there is not a title that is, I mean, more incredible, more relevant right now, it's Healing Hurts.
You know, I posted something this morning on social media that said, pray for those that hurt you.
And I want to tell you something.
Healing does hurt.
And I was thinking about, as a matter of fact, I was talking to some people yesterday that while they were talking to me, they were hurting me.
And here I am trying to be the faith guy, trying to be the minister, trying to be, you know, enthusiastic about life.
And yet, while there's people are talking to me, they are hurting me.
Pastor, I need help.
Well, really, that's why we're here today.
Yeah, because I want to tell you something.
You talk to family members without even realizing they're hurting you.
You talk to friends without even realizing they're hurting you.
And people hurt people hurt people.
They do.
That's right.
And we're going to talk to our special guest today.
And I want to tell you something.
If you feel hurt by the people that quote unquote love you, stay tuned.
This is going to be a healing service.
I want to call it a service because I want to tell you, as men of God, we're here to serve.
And the service you're about to hear today can unlock healing in your heart.
I mentioned that, Ricky, yesterday because while they were talking to me, they're hurting me, but I'm not allowing that hurt to sit in.
That's right.
I have the word.
No root of bitterness.
And no, I didn't want that root of bitterness to start right there.
And then instead, I say, you know, I love you and I forgive you.
Why do you mean you forgive me?
You're supposed to love me.
I said, no, no, no, you're hurting me right now.
And you're accusing me right now of things that are coming from your heart that is hurt.
So I realized at that moment, Ricky, that hurt people hurt other people.
That's right.
And we can find out that healed people can help heal other people as well.
Friends, we're going to be talking about healing hurts today.
If you have a Bible at home, you can open it up or turn it on to Philippians chapter 4, verse 8.
It says this, finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any moral excellence and if there is anything praiseworthy, dwell on these things.
Do what you have learned and received and heard from me and seen in me, and the peace of God will be with you.
Friends, if you tuned into the broadcast today and you have hurt, you have bitterness, you have something against somebody else, unforgiveness, whatever it is.
Friends, today is your day.
This is your show.
Don't tune away.
Really focus in on what this is.
Don't allow the external circumstances of the world to break your attention from what is going to be talked about with our special guest today, Pastor Jonathan Miller.
I want to say thank you so much for being on the broadcast with us today.
Guys, thank you.
Church based out of Orlando, Florida.
Yes, sir.
And you've come here all the way from Orlando, Florida.
You went from God's country to God's country.
I love Missouri here.
I asked how it was.
He said less human.
Praise God for that.
If somebody wants to find your church or, you know, maybe they're in the Orlando area and they say, man, I've been looking for a good Bible-believing church.
I know there's a lot, but there's yours as well.
Tell us about your church.
OrlandoNewbeginnings.com is how you can get our information.
The church is about four years old, even though the ministry's been in Orlando for almost 20 years.
But it's a young church.
It's growing.
It's just thriving every week.
We see people give their life to Jesus.
We're doing water baptisms, people are being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
We're seeing physical healing.
And we have a phrase at our church, revival's not coming.
It's not on the way.
It's here.
And we really are seeing God move in a revival type way every Sunday when we get together.
It's pretty amazing.
Amen.
Healing hurts.
I mean, what an incredible title.
Tell us about your story, how you found out healing hurts.
Wow.
Well, my life drastically changed when I was 12 years old.
I'll rewind the tape a little bit further than that.
My father and my mother planted a church back in 1980.
Amazing church.
Quickly grew to be a great church, a very large church.
But my dad had a lot of insecurities and a lot of things that just really weren't dealt with and addressed.
And those insecurities quickly opened a door for a lifestyle of sin, hidden sin.
And that's why at 12 years old, my life fell apart.
My father had confessed to my mother that he had been involved in adulterous relationships with a few women inside of the church.
He confessed to the church.
They were hurt.
People left.
95% of those people walked out of my life, haven't seen them since.
They were hurt, angry, understandably so.
My mom was hurt.
She was angry, filed for a divorce.
Fast forward a little bit into the process.
The guilt and the shame that my dad was feeling brought him to a point where he tried to take his life.
God intervened and he ended up going to Menetheremeyer Clinic in Chicago.
He was there several months and really began to find brokenness and the beginning of repentance because repentance isn't a one-time thing.
It's a process.
It's a lifestyle.
It's a way of living out what you're doing.
And my mom also at that time began to see, even though she had filed for a divorce, that he really was repentant and wanting to get to the root of the issue.
So they got couples counseling and made a decision to give their marriage another shot.
And at that point, as almost a 13-year-old boy, I'm like, man, God's a miracle-working God.
This is great.
But that's when hell really broke loose against my family.
When they made a decision to restore the women that my father had been involved with, who had also told my mom they were sorry.
They started the affairs.
They were in love with my father.
That's what they told her.
But when the story of restoration became public, that's when they went to law enforcement and said he used his position of authority to coerce them into their actions.
So, in other words, they weren't responsible for their own actions.
We didn't think anything would come of it.
But after a three, four-week trial, they actually found my father guilty and they sentenced him to nearly 30 years in prison, which effectively was a life sentence.
He was 41 years old when all of this was happening.
Now, my mom stayed married to him, even though he was incarcerated, because she knew he was forgiven of sin, committed to sin.
He was guilty of sin, but thank God forgiven, but never committed any crime.
So she fought for his release, pastored the church with less than a handful of people.
I got into drugs.
I got into alcohol.
I was running from God, but at 17, recommitted my life to the Lord.
And this year, I celebrated 27 years of being full-time in ministry, preaching the gospel.
So let me give you the end of the story.
After 18 years of my father being unjustly incarcerated, God moved on the heart of the governor of the state in which he was convicted and he granted him an executive clemency, which is the equivalent of a pardon.
And in one day, I feel God in here.
I might shout right here on this broadcast.
In one single moment, one single signature of one man's hand, 18 years of hell came to a screeching halt.
God is a miracle.
Come on, God is a miracle-working God.
But healing hurts.
This is the manuscript of what kept my family going and kept my family healing while our hearts were breaking during this 18-year-long crisis.
I wanted to find out why did my dad do what he did?
How did he get into sin?
How can we break those generational curses, keep them from coming on my life and my children's life?
And that's what the book is all about.
How old were you when your father was incarcerated?
12 years old when I found out about the affairs and just about to turn 13 when he was incarcerated and was 30 when he came home.
30 years.
30 years old.
We're watching your life play out right before our eyes with ministers and their families and people get to judge them from every angle and get accused.
But let's go back a little bit.
I think about the kids all the time.
Yeah.
As a kid, preacher's kid is what they call you guys, PKs.
What did that do to you, to the faith, that you hate God, that you hate religion, that you hate church?
What happened to you at that moment?
Yes, to every question you just asked.
It depended on the day and it depended on the season.
Obviously, it was wonderful growing up around miracles and growing up around faith and having my life wrapped around that.
But what a lot of people don't understand about being a pastor's kid, and anyone in ministry that's watching this, you're going to pass out when I say this.
Church hurt is a real thing, but church hurt goes both ways.
Pastors do hurt people, right?
But people get hurt.
People actually can hurt their pastors.
And when you watch people that you've given groceries to, you've bailed them out of prison, you've kept their kids from doing whatever.
Delicious 25-Year Meals 00:02:24
And the next thing you know, they're talking about you and they're putting you down and saying the most horrible things.
It's really, really difficult.
But I'll tell you how I learned to balance all of that.
If you're connected to God because of ministry, you're hit.
You're in trouble.
If you're connected to God because you're connected to the people that claim to be godly people, you're in trouble.
But you find out when those things shift and those things happen where your relationship with God really, really is.
And somewhere around 17 years old, when I recommitted my life to the Lord, I went from loving the Jesus that my mom and dad loved to loving the Jesus that I met.
We'll be right back after this special message.
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Healing Through Grace 00:15:51
And now, back to the show.
I know you're hosting, but I just got to say this.
This is powerful because here we have a generation that we want to expose the leader.
But what it truly, what I'm hearing is, it's really exposing where the church is spiritually.
Ricky, when you think of your Picquay as well, how do you deal with the church hurting you?
I see how they treat you a lot of times.
I see what people say about you.
I see people talking and posting things.
But as a pastor's kid, how do you not get angry?
How do you not allow this hurt to dwell in your heart?
Really what it boils down to is I realized there is a point in my life where I needed more grace than I could have bought with money, more grace than I could have worked for my entire life.
And I needed that grace.
The Lord granted me that grace.
Therefore, whenever people come and they attack, they slander, they lie, they, you know, they say things about our father's reputation, all these things, I realize, man, I can't be angry and hold on to bitterness because I needed probably more grace than they do right now.
I at one point needed grace and mercy and the Lord showed it to me.
And I realized if I can show grace and mercy in this moment, that's not a testimony to being right or a testimony to being wrong.
That's a testimony to God's goodness.
And I'm a firm believer in the word of God where it says it is the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance.
I watched a video one time of a man on a train car.
He was in London preaching the gospel and there was another gentleman who walked up and he slapped him directly in the face.
He starts yelling at this man.
The man would not start preaching.
He says, shut up, stop talking about Jesus.
Stop talking about Jesus.
And I'm watching this video on my phone intently trying to figure out, you know, I said, my brain goes, man, if I was the pastor, you know, we would probably be fist fighting right now.
You know what I mean?
That's the reality.
But this guy who's just preaching the gospel and he says, young man, can I give you a hug?
And that young man broke down and weeped.
He said, why'd you slap me?
He goes, I hate God.
Why did you hate God?
My mother was taking of cancer.
And he realized he hugged the man.
And by the end of the long video, the young man gave his life to God.
And I realized it's the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance.
So the reason I don't get angry, I don't get bitter, I can choose to hold on to it, but I choose not to is because I want someone to look at my life and say, he's been good to those, even who hurt him.
And it was the goodness of God that led them back to salvation.
Wow.
That's so good.
You know, it's also Matthew 7.
And people, they like to take that scripture out of the Bible.
Whatever measure you judge is the measure that you in return will be judged.
Grace is available equally to all of us, but it's not equally distributed.
That's right.
Think about that.
It's equally available, but not equally distributed.
It comes to us in proportion to the measure that we bestow it to others.
And if the Apostle Paul could say, I'm the chiefest of sinners, but by grace, there go I, who are we to judge anyone else?
That's right.
You know, one of the most humble things we can do as Christians is forgive.
That is a true act of humility.
The Bible says it very clear.
He gives grace to the humble, but what?
He opposes the proud.
I need grace.
I know I need grace.
I know I'll need it today, tomorrow, and for every day for the rest of my life.
So what does that mean?
I need to walk in humility.
Does that mean you never have a stroke of ego or stroke of pride pop up?
Absolutely not.
But what does that mean is when it does pop up, you say, I'm going to cover this in humility.
I'm going to restore.
I'm going to forgive.
I'm going to honor where honor is due.
I'm going to do everything that I possibly can.
Even, you know, Monda, like you said, sometimes, and you've seen this, I know you have many times.
Sometimes you're honoring and you're doing things.
You're putting the coat on people's back.
You're putting the ring on their hand and saying, you're home.
You're putting the sandals on their feet.
And while you're putting the sandals on their feet, they're still kicking you.
Yeah, absolutely.
But you're still choosing to be the goodness of God in somebody's life.
If somebody is hurting today, they're watching this right now and they're saying, well, Pastor, I can't forgive someone who molested me when I was a young kid.
You don't understand the lifelong issues that I've had because of that.
I can't forgive somebody who murdered my mother, my father, somebody who kidnapped or did this.
I can't forgive these kind of things.
Pastor, I have that hurt in my life.
How am I supposed to forgive God?
Yeah, you know, we talked about this a little earlier today, and I think people need to reconcile this in their mind.
Nobody, and hear me, nobody deserves to be forgiven.
If they abused you, they rejected you, they abandoned you.
You'll never forgive them if you think they deserve it.
You have to just come to reconcile in your heart and mind.
They do not deserve to be forgiven.
But also remember, neither do you.
And the same grace that was required to overcome your multitude of sin, the same love required to overcome that is the same love that is given to them.
We don't forgive people because they don't deserve it.
We don't feel like they've earned it.
Well, let's remember, none of us have earned it.
None of us are deserving of grace.
And when you realize that, it makes forgiving a whole lot easier.
Mondo, I know your life story.
You know, you wrote a book about a My Crazy Life.
The moments that brought a gangster to grace.
I believe that's the exact title of it.
There has been so many times, and I looked at your life story.
I've read your book from cover to cover.
There were so many times where you could have, even to this day, still been holding on to bitterness, still been holding on to hurt, still holding on to resentment for things that happened to you, your father, things that happened in the world of the gang member in Los Angeles, California.
But you chose to move on from that.
I'm going to ask you right now, and this is just a, we don't rehearse these questions raw and candid.
How bad did the healing hurt whenever you one day woke up and said, you know what?
Even if it cost me my life, I'm going to leave the gangs.
It was deep.
The hurt, the betrayal was deep.
I think it's taken 27 years to heal.
Wow.
Wow.
When you're a kid, just like you, where when this happens, you can't control your life.
You can't control what your father does.
You can't control the decision your parents are making for you and then how society treats you.
So the deep hurt has taken 27 years all the way up to 11, 22, and 30 seconds.
It takes a process to forgive, but I also look at the reality of what did I do wrong, God, to deserve this, right?
But at the same time, understanding that I can't live with that pain.
That pain was driving me to become violent.
That pain, that bitterness was allowing me to become an individual that I didn't even recognize.
I was vulgar.
I was defiant.
I was angry.
I was mad and I was destructive.
But at the same time, I realized there has to be more to this.
And today, you said it perfectly.
I need so much forgiveness and grace that I don't even think about retaliating to people anymore.
And the hurt to let go of 27 years of pain has been a struggle, has been anxiety, has been depression, has been everything that Christians don't like to admit.
But in my life, I had to become real with myself and realize this hurts.
I don't know what, if it happened to you, but when I wrote my book, it brought up a lot of pain writing about my father, writing about my mother, but it also created a moment of healing between my mother and I. My mother and I, for the first time since I was a little baby, we hugged.
Yeah.
And she asked me to forgive her.
And I asked her to forgive me.
So can I ask you this?
How does healing take place?
How do we, I talk about it because it happened to me.
You've talked about it.
But for those that are watching, how do we take the first step to understand what healing looks like?
Yeah, I think it's having the courage and the integrity to admit, I have a problem.
I need some help.
And I think our ability to be integral and say, my family does have some stuff going on.
We have some generational curses and patterns that need to be broken.
That is so important.
Then the second part of that with the healing process is to realize that pain is going to be there.
It doesn't matter the color of your skin.
It doesn't matter how much money you have or don't have, whether you're in ministry or not.
Pain is an unavoidable part of life.
And we have the ability to choose whether pain becomes a prison or whether pain becomes a catalyst that can launch us into great things.
Somewhere around 14 or 15 years old, I began to get irritated in my spirit.
I wasn't living for God, but there was something shifting in me.
I knew I was getting ready to step into some great things.
And the first time I preached a sermon at the age of 17 years old, the last thing I did before walking up on the stage was I bowed my head and I said, today, devil, I'm going to make you pay for everything you did to me, everything you did to my family.
I just preached for Bishop Kevin Wallace last Sunday, 4,000 people in the service 27 years later.
And the last thing I did before I preached that sermon, bowed my head and told the devil, today, I'm going to make you pay for what you did to me.
I'm turning pain into purpose.
I'm turning pain into power.
And that's when pain no longer holds us captive.
We can actually use it as fuel to help us do what God's destined us to do.
He's destined you for a great thing.
Friends, I want to give you the opportunity to go and get this book with our charisma media affiliate.
It'll be on our website, jimbakershow.com.
You can scan the QR code on the screen as well or call our number.
It's 1-888-988-1588.
As you can see, that's what it's going to look like.
So that's what the book you are looking for whenever you go to our Charisma Media affiliate.
It says, Face the pain and step into abundant life.
Healing hurts by Pastor Jonathan Miller.
That is with our Charisma Media affiliate.
You know, I want to ask you, you've been a pastor for many years now.
You've been loving people for many years now.
Is there a testimony that you can say, Hey, I walked through someone through the healing process?
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, and I even asked their permission before coming on the program today.
She made it into the book, but not by name.
Her name is Debbie.
I'll just say her first name is Debbie.
And Debbie had become one of the top volunteers at New Beginnings, our church.
And by that, Debbie had started going into women's ministry, prison ministry, and in one year was responsible for leading 1,300 women to the Lord herself.
I mean, this was an incredible woman of God.
She did everything you could think of at the church.
And slowly but surely, we noticed over a two or three year pattern or period, she was phasing out of volunteer work.
She had started phasing out of prison ministry.
Fibromyalgia was her diagnosis.
And she had it so bad that she literally lost her regular job, was bedridden.
And one Wednesday night, as I was teaching on forgiveness, the same thing that I put in the book, the same teaching that's in the book, she decided to come on a Wednesday night, had no idea she was dealing with unforgiveness from what her father had done to her as a child.
She began to weep during the message.
I remember that.
I almost wanted to say, hey, quiet, you know, when you're disrupting it, but she was weeping and crying out.
About three days later, she went back to the doctor because she had never felt so good as she had felt over those three days.
And that was five years ago.
To this day, Debbie is still free of fibromyalgia.
Not just because God healed her of fibromyalgia, he healed her of the root, the open door that the enemy was using to cause that sickness to come in.
I'm telling you right now, Pastor, that's an incredible thing to see forgiveness happen, which means, yes, her body was healed, incredible that it was, but more importantly, her heart.
Yeah.
And that's what, as a pastor, when you see someone come out of physical pain, out of a wheelchair, out of a crippling debility, it's amazing.
But when you see them say, I've not been able to say I love my dad in 40 years, or I've not been able to look at my own child and have a moment that they, bro, that's what makes pastoring worth everything when you get to see those moments.
When somebody orders this book today, what is a takeaway you want them to take from this book?
Healing hurts, but it's worth it.
It does hurt.
It's painful.
It's difficult.
And even when writing this book, I was reliving certain things in my life that I thought were healed.
They were dead, buried, and gone.
And like, no, they're still there.
It's a process.
It's painful.
It's difficult.
It takes work.
But anything worth something requires some effort and some energy.
So it is worth it in the end.
When you can start walking in freedom, the above insecurities and fear and really know who you are in Christ, man, the price, it's worth it.
Wow.
Your hurt is going to be used to heal someone else.
That's right.
And I watched it when my daughter was hurt by someone emotionally.
And I was able to call her in, sit her on my lap, and I hugged her.
And the hurt that I had gone through in my life became her healing moment.
And I realized if I don't step in as a father to help my daughter heal, she will carry this pain for the next 30, 40 years, and it will become her identity.
And I want to tell you something.
We can't do that to people.
We cannot allow people to allow themselves to think that they can identify what that hurt.
This book, it's a book for now.
Give it to the teenager that is struggling with their faith.
Give it to that one person that says, I hate God.
Most of the time, that route will go from what happened to them when they were a kid.
Maybe they lost their mother to cancer.
Maybe they lost their father to something.
Maybe something happened that doesn't make sense and they ended up blaming God.
And that hurt has become their identity.
And you watch.
If you stay quiet long enough to listen how people talk, you can listen that people are deeply hurt by something that they're still holding on to because their language is still the same as it was 30, 40 years ago.
Today, the Bible says, is the day that the Lord has made.
This day is for you.
Call the number right now, 1-888-988-1588.
Or better yet, go to the website, jimbakershow.com and get a copy of this amazing, powerful book.
And I want to tell you something.
This healing hurts is going to turn your mess into a message.
Amen.
Pastor, if somebody's watching right now and they're saying, well, I'm a believer.
I'm a Christian.
I love Jesus, but I'm dealing with unforgiveness.
You guys have been talking and the Lord has shown something.
He's revealed something in my heart that I'm still holding on, bitterness, anger, unforgiveness.
I have roots.
How do I get rid of them?
What would you say to them right now if they're watching?
Just know this, that that unforgiveness that you have towards that person is not hurting that person.
It's only hurting you.
And what they did to you can continue to have power over you as long as unforgiveness permits it to do so.
Today, in the name of Jesus, I pray that faith would rise up in your spirit, faith would rise up in your heart, and that God would give you a sufficient grace to let go and to let him have his way.
Forgiveness, let it come into your heart.
Let it happen even now in the name of Jesus.
In the name of Jesus.
Friends, give your life to Jesus.
It's the most important decision you will ever make in your entire life.
Why?
Because eternity is at stake with that.
Friends, I want to see you in heaven.
I want to be able to talk to you in a trillion years from now, knowing that eternity has just begun.
If you want help praying the salvation prayer or praying a rededication prayer, if you want help finding a good Bible-believing church in your area, call our number.
It's 1-888-988-1588.
Or you can go to our website, ptl.tv, and you can do the contact us form.
We'll have one of our pastors call you back.
We want to pray with you.
We want to stand in the gap and contend for your prodigal son, your prodigal daughter, grandson, granddaughter, whatever it is.
We want to agree with you in faith that whatever need it is you have today, the Lord will answer that call.
And if it's salvation, friends, we want to let you know that there is eternal security found in Jesus Christ.
Forgive today.
Forgiveness Means You're Free 00:01:19
If that means you have to make a painful phone call today, do it today.
Forgiveness doesn't mean what the other person did is right.
It means you're free.
It means you can walk in what the Lord has for you.
Pastor Miller has said it absolutely best, friends.
I want you to go and get this book, Healing Hurts.
It's available through our affiliate program with Charisma Media.
The reason we do that is because we get to get good information in your hands, good books that help you become all you're supposed to be and also those around you.
But it also goes to support the ministry to be able to continue to broadcast the gospel of Jesus Christ around the world, to let people know Jesus Christ is really the true and only way to heaven.
We'll never mince our words about that.
He's the way, the truth, and the life.
Nobody comes to the Father except through him.
Pastor Miller, I want to say thank you for being on the broadcast with us today.
We'll have him back tomorrow for day two where we're going to dive a little bit deeper into healing hurts.
God bless you.
Never forget, God loves you.
He really does.
Bye-bye for today.
Thank you so much.
The Jim Baker Family Show has been a voice of truth, preparation, and hope for generations.
And it's only possible because of you.
Call us today at 1-888-988-1588 or visit our website at jimbakershow.com.
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