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Oct. 21, 2025 - Jim Bakker Show
28:20
The Jim Bakker Show with Jonathan Miller Part 2
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Let Us Agree in the Middle 00:14:42
Welcome to the Jim Baker Family Show.
Today, our special guest is Pastor Jonathan Miller.
Our co-host today is Reverend Mondo de la Vega.
And now, here's your host, Pastor Ricky Baker.
Hello, friends.
You're watching the PTL Television Network.
It's an honor to have tuned in with us today.
We have day two with Pastor Jonathan Miller.
If you haven't watched day one, please go download the PTL Television Network app.
You can get it on iPhone and Android, iOS, Google Play Store.
You can also go to ptl.tv and watch day one with Pastor Jonathan Miller.
We're talking about his new book, Healing Hurts.
Pastor, you have an incredible testimony.
The Lord has been using you not only to heal your own heart, but also to heal the heart of others, which I believe is the responsibility of every believer to go out there and seek the healing of a lost and a dying world.
Tell us, if somebody hasn't watched episode one, they're not going to go back and watch the first one.
What is Healing Hurts and why did you write it?
Yeah, Healing Hurts really is a manuscript that I feel the Holy Spirit gave me as I reflected on an 18-year-long situation, an impossible situation involving my father, which we came out on the other side.
We saw a wonderful miracle, but the pain of dealing with the middle, right?
What do we do with the middle part?
We start off, we're waiting for a manifestation.
How do we handle the middle part?
And also, really, what is God trying to teach us?
I've come to a place in my life in every storm, every crisis, there's something he's trying to teach me, something he's trying to reveal about himself in me.
And that's really what healing hurts is.
It's a revelation of what came about in those 18 years and really a living manuscript that I'm still working on and still living out every day of my life as I'm seeking healing.
Amen.
You are the pastor of New Beginnings Church in Orlando, Florida.
That's right.
If there's people in Orlando, Florida, we have a large demographic of people who watch in the Florida region.
If they're saying, hey, I need a good Bible-believing church, you have some seats in your church for them.
We do.
We got plenty of seats, and we'll even go to another service if we have to.
We're already doing two, and we'll have to go to three soon because God is really blessing and growing.
And we are a Bible-believing and Bible-preaching church.
We really do believe in the preaching of the word.
And we're seeing manifestations of miracles.
And people are giving their life to the Lord every week.
So if you are in the Orlando area, come by.
See us.
We'll save.
Just a couple seats for you.
We got a couple left.
Amen.
You have an incredible life story.
I really encourage you, go watch the first episode with Pastor Jonathan Miller.
You went from a life of, you know, if I can just not miss my words, of really utter devastation to now helping people get out of a destructive lifestyle, a devastating lifestyle, and walking in the fullness of what God has for them.
Do you feel like sometimes when we walk through the fire, we can help others when they're walking through the fire?
Yeah, I think the only way we'll be qualified to help people get through the fire is if we go through it ourselves.
You know, Joshua and Caleb were two of the positive spies.
We had 10 negative reports.
Those 10 did not enter into Canaan.
Joshua and Caleb did because as leaders, we can't take people somewhere we've not been ourselves, right?
We have to get there and go through that ourselves.
And I really, when writing this book, I kept the scripture ahead of me.
How can the blind lead the blind unless they fall into a ditch?
So writing on healing has not been near as important to me as walking in healing and experience healing in my own life.
And so that's just my heart with it.
Amen.
You know, Pastor and Ricky, as we see the nation, our nation is hurting.
Yeah.
Our nation is divided.
Our nation needs healing from the hurt.
Let me talk about Charlie Kirk for just a moment.
Because I think this brings a lot of deep hurt in our nation today.
How do you pastor, how do you lead in a time where our nation is divided?
Our nation is hurting.
Our nation is watching how we're going to respond.
Now, we've watched a lot of pastors respond very brutal to the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
But then the middle.
I love what you said, the middle, that middle, we forget about the middle, and that middle is the people.
Right.
How do you heal a nation that is divided?
Well, there's so much extremes right now in what we're seeing that there really is in what people are saying and what they're feeling.
And as a pastor, I've come to understand that really every problem that people have is rooted in pain.
Addiction is rooted in pain.
That's right.
Vitriol, anger, hatred, racism, whatever it may be.
And so what we're trying to do as a congregation is to create conversations about what are you hurt over?
Because this thing with Charlie Kirk, it's hurt people and understandably so.
It crushed my children.
It hurt them.
It shook them in a way that other events have not.
But then you see a lot of things on social media, people saying some wild, wild stuff.
And you're like, how in the world can anybody say something so messed up and so far-fetched?
Well, look beyond that and see this is a person who has a different life context.
They're hurting and they're in pain.
And if we can begin to minister to the pain, we can begin to have conversations that can really unite the body of Christ.
That's what we need more than the now, more now than ever, isn't it, Pastor?
Unity.
It is.
Unity.
And it's not us all feeling the same way or thinking the same way about something.
It is the ability to have common ground.
What pertains to salvation?
What pertains to our eternal life?
Let's agree on those things.
And the other issues, they're just issues.
But let's agree to disagree on certain things.
Not if it's not theological, right?
Doctor and his doctor.
We have to believe the word of God.
But it's possible, I really do believe, to see unity come to the body of Christ if we can get our conversation off of what people are saying and what they're doing and really onto how they're feeling and what pain has created the context for what they're saying.
I say this in our church quite a bit because our church is really a melting pot of denominations and I love it.
You know, we're not one particular denomination.
It's a lot of different denominations.
Say, you know, I'll never get everyone to agree on every jot and tittle of theology.
Never.
I can never get the world to agree on all of that completely.
But do we believe the core principle, the real true doctrine of who Jesus is, who he said he is?
Do we believe those things?
Because I believe that's important.
I'll never be able to get everyone to agree on theology, but I will definitely get the world at some point to agree on cause, that Christ is the only way to heaven.
That life is worth protecting, that we should honor our fathers and mothers, that we should protect children.
Could we ever see a church that agrees on the core principles of the gospel as a unified body, regardless of denomination, regardless of Christian sect, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant?
Could we see that in our lifetime?
I think that's what the Apostle Paul was trying to get us to see as he wrote, I preach Christ crucified and him crucified.
Paul was Saul at one point, a very educated Jew.
He knew the Torah.
He knew the law.
But yet he elevates his knowledge and understanding that Christ, Son of God, crucified on a cross, raised from the dead for the salvation of our sins, our soul, forgiveness of our sins, that is salvific.
That is what we bind ourselves to.
Everything else, it's little, and yet we're jeopardizing relationships over things that are not based on salvation.
Why is it that we allow disunity when we understand through scripture that our most powerful weapon that we have is unity?
I'm going to give you a very blunt answer to that because we've exalted our way above God's.
It's pure and simple, and it really is that simple.
When you fight over the color of a chair, more so than getting the glory of God into a room.
That's right.
You have made what you want a priority over what God wants.
And that's what I'd love to see pastors doing this season.
Let's not consume ourselves with telling, well, you have to do this.
And if you're a pastor, you have to speak to this.
What is the Holy Spirit leading us to do?
Because when you begin to make the kingdom the paramount focus, what you want really doesn't matter.
And you really should read this Bible because most everything God commanded people to do in scripture, they didn't want to do.
It wasn't fun.
It wasn't easy.
That's why it's called sacrifice.
And if we get to that place where we want the will of God and the purposes of God to be established above everything else, it doesn't matter how cold or hot, how loud, how soft.
Man, you're going to be there for it because his will matters more than anything.
Would you say a unified church is a church that is moving towards being a healed church?
Absolutely.
Because these petty things, and we would talk, why don't we, why do we allow disunity?
Well, let's talk about why the devil brings disunity.
It is to keep us from the glory of God.
As we saw in Solomon's temple when the priests and the Levites were in unity, that's when the glory of God fell.
And this is the great thing about unity.
Unity is not everybody doing the same thing at the same time.
That's right.
Unity is about everybody doing what they're called to do individually at the same time.
So you have a choir, you have a band, the piano plays their part, the drums their part, altos, sopranos.
So it's not, oh, we all have to look the same and be the same, clone copies of one another.
No, it's being who God's called you to be, you doing what God's called you.
And once we do that, that is unity, and that's what the devil cannot stop.
And that's where we can see harmony.
I don't know if you remember a few years ago, we had someone who came on the broadcast and they were referring to another minister of the gospel and saying, well, you know, they're only preaching happy messages.
They're only doing this.
And, you know, very bluntly on the show was like, hey, that's, you know, that's their calling, though.
If every single one of us preached revelation, I'm telling you right now, there would be no flavor in the church.
No.
If every single one of us only ever preached happy messages, there would be no flavor of the church.
Need those people who preach the messages that encourage the body, that get you hyped up.
It feels like you've been, you know, a spiritual Red Bull's been given to you.
But we also need those people who have a hard message of repentance.
We need those people.
I believe we all have been given a calling.
And praise God, we are not all called to preach the exact same message.
Praise God that we all have been given something by God for the body.
You know, the same nutrients that is given to us from God is distributed to the different members of the body.
Does that mean one member is less important because it is the foot?
No.
Is one member less important because it's the hand?
No.
We have to understand that if you look at the anatomy of a body, it all needs to be there to function in its full potential and calling.
Like you said, it's not all of us.
It's not the hands walking like feet.
It's not, you know, the ears trying to be feet.
It's everyone doing what they were called to do at the same time.
That's why we can run the race as a body of Christ.
That's where we find healing, though.
It is.
I find that people try to do ministry while hurt, and they just assume the ministry work can be my mask.
How do we avoid that in the church?
Well, let me go back to what you were just saying a minute ago because as you were talking, I wrote down these two words: balanced diet.
Because anybody who's physically sick, whether it's cancer or whatever it may be, it's a result of things in your body not being in order and being in proper balance.
And so we need the prophetic.
We need those rebuking, corrective, change our course messages.
And we need those hype.
That's right.
I'm going to live to see another day kind of a message.
And we need books like Healing Hurts, and we need books on deliverance, where it can be an instant, immediate thing.
A lot of the body is suffering from spiritual health because we control our diet.
Some people, all they eat is sugar.
That's not, there is a place for a good chocolate bar at the end of the night.
Come on, somebody.
Come on.
But if you do that at breakfast, we're having church already.
But if you do that every day, every meal, you're going to eventually die.
Meat is good for you.
Protein is good for you.
As much as I like steak, if I had it five times a day, eventually I'm going to die.
And if you feed yourself just prophetic or you feed yourself just the hype, it's not going to do good for your spiritual body.
And I think unity comes when we really begin to appreciate these nuances and these differences that all these ministries bring together.
You're so right because when you look at the spectrum of the pockets in which Christianity loves to move in, it becomes very high school where everybody has their own group over here.
And I find it very dangerous.
It reminds me when I was growing up in the gangs, I knew that we were hitting a marker where we were becoming self-inflicted because we were not allowing other people to come in and be part of the gang.
Meaning in East LA, there was only the Chicanos that were in there, but not realizing that Central Americans were now part of the community.
And if we didn't adopt to that or adapt to that change, we were going to be left behind.
And I want to tell you something.
The church is the same way.
So good.
The church loves to keep their own inner circle together.
I'm the type of person that I have moved with so many different circles.
I don't care what people say about me.
I don't worry about what people say about me.
I remember years ago when one of my best friends, Dr. Gary Smalley, and we went out to eat, and his friend came in and he said, Oh, my friend Joel is coming in and we're going to have dinner together.
Well, I didn't know who he was talking about.
Come to find out, it was Joe Olstein.
And here we're having dinner with Joe, laughing together.
And I see other friends in the Revelation, you know, prophetic movement that are so anti-Joe Olstein and they got mad at me.
Well, I thought you were, I said, wait a minute.
I don't belong to what is this, a gang?
Right.
You know, and I said, no, we have to be friends, brothers with everybody.
And I love what you said.
There's days where you need the prophetic.
There's days where you need the revelation.
There's days where you want to understand faith and you want to understand prosperity.
You want to understand the healing.
But I want to tell you something.
You can become self-inflicted if you just stay in that only pocket where if you're the only smart person in that circle, you're in trouble.
No wonder there's a lot of church hurt today, Pastor.
I see social media and people are disappointed with the church because they see how we treat the Joe Olsteins.
Ministry Of Restoration 00:13:47
They see how we treat the John MacArthurs.
They see how we treat the Baptists.
They see, and I want to tell you something.
You start getting into that kind of camp of judging people.
Oh man, you said into the realm of what the Bible says God doesn't like when we set discourse among the brethren.
He hates it.
He does.
He does.
We're to be ministers of reconciliation.
That is the message of Jesus.
That is the ministry of Jesus.
And it doesn't matter if that person is a sinner that's on drugs laying out on the street or a prominent minister that's been leading and has fallen into sin.
The ministry of reconciliation.
is the ministry of Christ.
That's right.
Period.
We've said it many times.
Restoration is a messy business.
It is.
It absolutely is.
And so a lot of people try to stay away from restoring because they're worried, well, what if it looks like, you know, what if they think, or what if this, or what if that?
And so we see a man or woman fallen, a brother or a sister in Christ, and we choose not to extend our hand as believers because we're worried, well, what if I get associated with them?
What is this?
I don't even remember, Monto.
What, six, seven months ago, there was a man who fell and, you know, he's a very prominent man of God.
And we said, hey, you can come here.
You can stay here.
You can be restored.
Take time with your wife.
Spend as much time as you need.
We'll give you a place to stay.
And we were criticized for that.
Why?
For extending a helping hand to a brother who has fallen.
We'll never stop doing that.
If a man or a woman falls, we will continue to help restore those people because it's important.
Restoration, yes, it is a messy business, but it is a needed business because healing can often come out of restoration.
Is that right?
I believe it always does.
And you're hitting the nail on the head.
It's this word called religion.
That's what the priest and the Levite did when they saw the man bleeding on the road of Jericho.
They were on their way to take care of their own need and they went on the other side of the road to avoid him in his need.
And that's what religion does.
It recognizes problems.
It points out that there's a problem, but it offers no solution.
I believe there are ministries being raised up in America in this time.
And thank you guys for who you are.
And I mean that from the Bible.
Can we thank God for the Baker family, Pastor Jim, Pastor Roy, all of you guys, because of what you went through, you have a heart for restoration.
And you have a friend in me.
It may not mean much, but I'll be your friend and I'll stand with you guys and I will help you restore whoever you need to restore because we've been through it.
That is the ministry of Jesus Christ.
And if unity is ever going to come in the body of Christ, we've got to start talking like this, preaching these kind of messages.
Can I say this?
I'm going to be blunt about this.
Never give up on people.
Never give up on ministers.
Never give up on families.
Never give up on those that have fallen right before our eyes.
You never know who God is going to use.
God used this ex-gang member to walk into a man's life called Jim Baker to help restore him.
God used the least of these to help restore the men and women of God in the Bible.
Read the Bible.
It's filled with messed up people.
People that have failed, people that performed great miracles in 24 hours.
They hid in caves.
They ran.
They murdered.
They seduced.
They failed right before their eyes.
But thank God that God always sends help.
You can be that help today.
Restoration is a cusp in the church.
I'm amazed how many people are afraid to restore, Pastor.
What is it about restoration that is so intimidating?
It is messy.
And like the priest and the Levite, they didn't want that man's mess getting on them.
Remember, they wore priestly garments, white garments.
They were clean.
They didn't want his blood on them.
They didn't want his mess on them.
So God had to use a Samaritan who had a lot in common with that man on that road.
That man on the road was bleeding and dying and an outcast.
That Samaritan was an outcast.
It's amazing how God uses burnt stones to build his kingdom.
He's been doing it from Nehemiah to all the way now.
And that's where God is raising up people, men and women who have been through their own mess.
Look, you didn't hesitate to reach out to this ministry.
You've already had your smoke.
You've already had your controversy.
You've been there, done that.
And when you've had all of that stuff taken away from you and all your pride and hubris is gone and it's just you and Jesus, bro, it don't matter where God calls you to be.
You'll get bloody.
You'll get dirty.
You'll be that Samaritan.
Amen.
You will be that Samaritan.
Absolutely.
You know, I'm reminded at Acts chapter 9.
We see it says that Paul, our Saul was still breathing murderous threats against Christians as he was walking this Damascus road.
What happens?
He has a Damascus road experience.
He encounters Jesus.
He's blinded.
And they say, hey, go into the city and meet a specific man.
This man says, absolutely not.
Do you not know who that is?
That's Saul, the Christian killer.
And says, no, no, no, don't worry.
Take care of him.
Tend to him for a little while.
He's going to suffer greatly for me.
At the very beginning of Saul's, to Paul's ministry, they let him know right off the jump.
It's going to be tough.
It's going to be very tough.
But he continued to pursue.
He continued to go, even unto Rome where he knew I'm going to spread the gospel, even if it cost me my very life.
I'm going to see a nation changed, even if it cost me my very life.
If we had more believers in America right now who had the same message that said, you know what?
It doesn't matter.
Even if it costs me my very life, I'm going to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Do you think we'd see a more healed nation right now?
Absolutely.
Because of all these issues that we discuss, all the things that divide, it is the cross that unites.
It is the gospel that unites.
And if we could get back to preaching a pure gospel, not a filtered one that we've manipulated to fit our own narratives and our own contextual ideology, know the real gospel, Jesus Christ, Him crucified, raised from the dead.
If that was enough to unify the body of Christ, then it's sure enough to unify the body of Christ today.
Amen.
If something happened to you, wouldn't you want somebody to come to your rescue?
Yes.
If you lost everything, wouldn't you want somebody to come and bail you out?
Come on.
Wouldn't you want somebody at your worst moment to walk in and said everything's going to be okay?
That's the kind of God we serve.
That's the kind of Jesus we serve.
That's the kind of Jesus we follow.
He deals with messy people, with messy situations.
He doesn't need you to be perfect.
He needs you to be attentive to his love.
Listen, you wrote on chapter six, messy life, messy people.
Then you talk about dealing with iniquity, the problem.
Why do we do what we do?
Oh my gosh, why do we do what they do?
Why people do what they do?
This is so powerful.
We have to understand.
I love the fact that you said it.
I don't know if you said it on the first show, this show.
Go back and watch the first show and then watch this show to correct me because you said, don't focus on the people.
Focus on where that hurt comes from, Ricky.
The roots.
The roots.
Right.
Oh, man.
Listen, get the book today.
Get several copies.
It's going to bless you.
It's going to heal you.
It's going to transform you.
It's going to, oh, it's going to challenge you.
Amen.
And ask this question: Am I a religious person or am I a restorer?
Get the book today.
Healing Hurts by Pastor Jonathan Miller, 1-888-988-1588.
And get several copies today.
It's going to heal your heart.
Amen.
If someone is just tuning into the broadcast right now and they're saying, What is healing hurts?
Give us a synopsis of the book.
Give a few minutes.
And then if somebody's watching, they want to give their life to Jesus.
Go ahead and just say, Hey, this is the way to do it.
Absolutely.
You know, the book title came to me as a result of an injury that I had on my hand when I was 19 years old.
A tree saw went into my hand and I got it stitched up, went back to work, didn't cover it, didn't treat it properly.
And sure enough, two days later, the hand was infected.
And I had to go back to the hospital.
And instead of them giving me stitches, they took a scrub brush and began to clean it out.
And it hurt more for them to cleanse it, for them to scrub it than the original injury did itself.
My friend, I want to tell you today, healing does hurt.
It's not easy.
It's not comfortable going back to those moments.
But when trauma and tragedy hits our life, we don't always have the tools to process to properly heal or to properly deal with those.
I believe healing hurts is a spiritual guide, a spiritual tool that will help take you back.
Just as I had to go get my hand scrubbed out and cleansed after the healing process went wrong, God has a way of taking us back to those moments.
Healing hurts will help you do that.
I believe God is dealing with hearts today.
People are struggling with unforgiveness.
And because of what you've been through, I'm speaking by the Spirit of the Lord.
There are many of you watching today, because of the trauma, because of the pain, because of you not dealing with what's happened to you, it has caused a breach in the relationship between you and God.
You've allowed the difficulty of life to separate you.
Today is your day to come back.
Just say that in your own heart.
Say it with your own mouth.
Dear Jesus, I give you my life today.
Everything I have, everything I am belongs to you.
I repent for my sin.
I repent for doing things my own way.
And today is going to be a new day, the beginning of the rest of my life.
Jesus, you are mine and I am yours in your name.
Amen.
Amen.
Friends, if you prayed that prayer, welcome to the family of Jesus Christ.
Go get in a good Bible-believing church.
Go get baptized.
Go put on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, wherever you have.
I am a Christian.
I serve Jesus Christ, the only way to have it.
It's the best decision you've ever made in your entire life.
Friends, it is incredible to know I have eternal security in my Lord, my Savior, the one who loved me so much that he was willing to hang on a cross on my behalf when it should have been me hanging on that cross for my sins.
But he loved me so much that he took my place.
I say this many times in our church.
If it had only been one drop of blood that would have been spilled, it would have been good enough to cover all of humanity for all sins for all time.
But he gave it all.
Every last thing he had, he gave it all.
Why?
It says for the joy set before him.
If you've ever been curious about what the joy set before him is, go find a mirror today.
Look yourself in the eyes and say, I am the joy set before him.
Because friends, when he was on the cross, you were on his mind.
That's not a cliche Christian phrase.
That's the reality of what it is.
And friends, it says that while we were still sinners, he died for us.
Not while you were a well-meaning Christian, not while you were trying your best to follow the tenets of the gospel.
No, while you were still a sinner, he died for you.
Friends, if that's not love, I don't know what is.
But I'll tell you right now, that's true love.
You have a father, you have a mediator, you have a friend who is passionately in love with you and wants to see you for eternity with him in heaven.
Accept that today.
Pastor, I want to say thank you for being on the broadcast with us today.
I want to encourage you one more time.
Go get this book, Healing Hurts, by Pastor Jonathan Miller on our affiliate program with Charisma Media.
This is going to bless your life today.
Go order that.
And remember this: God loves you.
He really does.
Bye-bye for today.
Thank you.
Go order this book today.
Thank you for supporting the ministry.
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Visit Our Website 00:00:19
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