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May 22, 2025 - Jim Bakker Show
28:27
The Jim Bakker Show with Bishop Ron Webb Part 2
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Scripture On Forgiveness 00:15:02
Welcome to the Jim Baker Family Show.
Today, Bishop Ron Webb and Pastor Jim Baker discuss forgiveness and healing.
Our co-hosts today are Reverend Mondo De La Vega and Pastor Ricky Baker.
And now, here is your host, Pastor Jim Baker.
Welcome, welcome.
Hello, and welcome to the PGL Club.
There you go.
Can I say that?
You can say whatever you want.
Yeah, at my age, you get to say anything you want.
Bishop Ron Webb is here with us.
One of my best friends in the world.
And you are preaching all the time all over these United States.
Yes, sir.
Yes.
And do people forgive easily?
That's the subject I've been on.
And you and I are reading the book.
And I believe right now we're in the end times.
And we've got to do something to get people ready.
You know, a part of the last days, we talk about wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, divers places.
Yes.
Pestilence, disease in the land.
All those things are occurring right now while we're sitting here on this show.
But one of the things that we failed to mention, one of the signs of the last days is many shall be offended.
We live in an offended world right now, and we have to learn to forgive because there's so many scriptures surround forgiveness.
And I think it's one of the number one challenges that Christians deal with today in America and all over the world is for forgiveness.
Let me read again this main scripture.
There's so many of them about forgiveness.
And we're going to write a, we are writing the book and I want everyone to get that book.
And we need people to help us.
You know, it's like starting all over again because the world has tried to destroy Christian television.
Yes.
And many of these networks won't allow you to really preach the true gospel.
But we want to be able to preach the entire Bible and get people ready for the end times.
Now, here's the scripture I want to read.
It's in Matthew chapter 6.
And I'm reading from the Living Bible verses 14 and 15.
Your heavenly Father will forgive you if you forgive those who sin against you.
But if you refuse to forgive them, he will not forgive you.
That's powerful.
Bishop, that scripture is so shocking.
And I preached for, you know, almost 100 years, I think.
But I felt like God said, this is the message I want you to preach in the last days.
Yes.
I mean, it simply states there, you can't get it until you give it.
If you give it, then you can receive it.
We can't demand mercy and then not give mercy.
Isn't it amazing that God forgives our sin, but he tells us we have to forgive others their sin.
Or our sins will not be forgiven.
That's right.
That's shocking.
And I am so concerned that millions will not enter heaven because they have unforgiveness.
It's one of the greatest challenges in Christendome right now.
When we travel the country preaching the gospel, when you give an altar call for healing, an altar call for unforgiveness, then the altars are filled.
Now, sometimes they're slow coming, but slow forgiveness is better than no forgiveness.
So you have to give people time to think because the only payment, the only payment is forgiveness because the Bible says vengeance is mine, says the Lord, and I will repay.
We got to trust God to do that.
Do you see this unforgiving?
You're probably the most traveled preacher I know of in the world today.
You're out every night of the week almost preaching in another church.
You go from one church to another.
What do you see in those churches?
There's a lot of hurt Christians.
There's a lot of wounded, wounded Christians.
And I believe in our approach of preaching and communicating forgiveness, we can't overlook the fact that people are really wounded and they're bleeding spiritually.
And so we do have to address that.
We talked about it on the show before about confronting the issues.
We can't act like they don't exist.
But at the same time, you know, we're not just here to recite the problems.
We have to summon the solution.
The solution is forgiveness all the way through.
We all have stories.
And, you know, you mentioned something very powerful but very sensitive in the previous show is that, you know, well, whether, you know, leaders are famous or whatever across the country, you know, why is it that people don't forgive them?
I simply say the same grace that we use for the pew works for the pulpit.
It can't just be for the pew.
It's got to be for the pulpit.
But guess what?
I've heard people say, well, I've received my greatest hurt in church.
My greatest womb came from the church.
Jesus opened up and said, hey, they asked, where do these wombs come from?
He says, from in Zachariah, in the house of my friends.
You know, can't nobody hurt you like the one you love.
But we have to acknowledge the fact that, yes, people have been hurt by leaders and leaders have been hurt by people.
It goes both ways.
But at the end of the day, you have to forgive.
That's the only payment.
You talked about reward and consequences.
So I thought that was powerful.
You know, that scripture, the first if in that scripture brings reward.
The second if on that portion of scripture brings consequences.
So God deals with reward first, but then he has to deal with the consequences.
Now, I have to ask you this, Bishop, because our nation is divided in every way possible, politically, religiously, everything.
But there's so much, Mondo, that they want to kill our president.
They wanted to kill each other.
That's right.
But there's something that every cycle brings race into the equation.
How do we heal the race issue in America?
First of all, when a matter keeps occurring, that's a sign that it's not fixed.
That's a sign that the healing has not taken place.
When we look in our country and there's such a racial divide.
Well, let me first make this statement.
Racism is not a skin problem.
It's a sin problem.
Because if your heart is right, you're going to love everyone.
Because what did Jesus say?
Paul said it in Christ, there's neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, but we're all one in Christ.
This is why the world, amen, they can see the unity in the church.
Jesus' last prayer before he went to the cross was, Father, make them one as we're one, that the world may know that I've sent you.
And the only way the world is going to see the love of Christ being exemplified among Christians, then, because you can march and protest until Jesus come.
That's not going to fix it.
They got to see the love of God being displayed in the house of God.
Amen.
Amen.
What are some of the hidden or unexpected ways unforgiveness shows up in our lives?
There's anger.
It's nasty.
Anger.
Ecclesiastes says, anger rests in the bosom of fools.
Anger, the danger of anger.
Anger is very true.
Resentment.
And then ultimately, if you don't deal with it, Paul warns us to be careful that if you don't get rid of unforgiveness, it turns into a root of bitterness.
And wherever there's root, there's got to be fruit somewhere.
I think you said something so powerful on the first program that can you touch on real quickly?
Because there's people watching right now and say, well, Bishop, you don't know what they did to me.
You don't know how they hurt me, the abuse, the sexual abuse.
How do you answer that when we're talking about forgiveness?
There's a trajectory of the journey that has taken place in a preacher.
You know, most of us are preacher here, but when we say statements like that, people get angry.
Absolutely, because they feel like you minimize their hurt or minimize their pain.
I believe we need to listen because people are, I mean, they're speaking from a place of hurt and they've been wounded.
I remember, and I shared this on a previous show.
Almost 20 years ago, I was preaching on forgiveness.
Someone had watched our TV broadcast and they called the office literally screaming and said, well, we enjoyed watching your program until you start preaching on forgiveness.
And if you only knew what happened, then how can you expect me to forgive this lady was saying her ex-husband because he had raped her daughter?
Okay.
Those are real issues that people deal with.
And I said to her, I didn't return the call and I was kind of advised not to, but I sensed the anger from that message.
And she was literally screaming at the top of her voice.
And I said to her, we can't excuse the hurt.
And I feel like preachers have to be careful when they just tell people, you got to forgive.
I don't care what happened.
You got to forgive.
That is true.
But then sometimes we can sound insensitive by saying that because in return, they say, you don't know the depths of my pain.
This didn't happen to you.
How would you respond if that happened to you?
So it put me in another category where I had to open up and say, hey, she's got a valid point here.
But at the end of the day, I said, listen, you can't even be forgiven until you forgive that person.
She calls back three days and said, I apologize for my attitude and for cursing and going all.
She says, I don't want to forgive, but I'm going to forgive because I realize the only way that I can receive forgiveness is I have to forgive.
How do you deal with people when they say, I just won't forgive them?
Well, and then there are some that won't.
You can't make them, but you do share the rewards and then you share the consequences.
Because there are some, I've heard people say, and I'm sure you all have heard at one point or another, people say, well, I'd rather burn in H-E-L-L than to forgive that person for what they've done toward me.
Well, guess what?
If you don't forgive, then you can't be forgiven.
You just read that scripture.
Yes.
That is a startling scripture.
Oh, it's powerful.
But there's more scriptures about forgiveness.
Absolutely.
The Bible is just filled with it.
In fact, Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins.
Absolutely.
And then, you know, the Bible lets us know that if we sin, if a brother or sister be overtaken in a fall, he which is spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself.
But people who say they're spiritual backbite and gossip.
Got down.
And I mean, I know people have whole ministries, Ricky, just to beat up the wounded.
Just like today, the church doesn't know what to do with falling ministers, ministers that have taken advantage of their pulpit and not had accountability.
Well, I want to tell you something.
I've watched for the last 27 years what accountability looks like on how to restore someone in the proper way.
And I want to tell you something.
Men like Tommy Barnett, men like Rick Joyner, Tommy Reed, they understood a plan on how to restore you back into ministry, but they didn't push you.
They gave you time to be restored.
People came around and protected you.
Not protected the sin, but protected the character, the man behind the sin.
And I want to tell you something.
Today, we don't have that anymore.
It's spiritual covering.
And see, here's what people don't understand.
If someone covers you spiritually, that doesn't mean it's a cover up.
Don't get a spiritual covering mixed up with a cover up.
So it's not a cover up.
But at the same time, as Christians, we're not to expose.
You're not being spiritual when you go out and expose your brother.
I mean, we got scripture on it.
Noah got drunk on his own vineyard.
One of his sons went out and exposed him and his descendants were cursed.
The other two grabbed the sheet and backed up and covered his nakedness.
Then we see where David says that even after Saul was killed, David charged the people not to tell it in Gath.
Yeah, tell it not in Gath.
He says, tell it not in Gap.
Don't publicize it.
Don't go to CNN.
Don't go to Fox News.
Don't go to ABC.
I mean, go to your prayer closet and restore such a one in the spirit of meekness.
How come there's such profit in being a title tale?
Because people like gossip and they like nasty.
And the nastier the story it is, the more they pay.
But you have to understand, and I believe, especially in this era that we're in now, because a lot of young ministers aspire to be great in ministry.
But what we fail to teach people is ministry is messy.
Nobody preaches about ministry is messy.
What does the Bible tell us?
Restore With Meekness 00:03:39
Where there's no ox, the stalls are clean.
But where there's ox, it's messy.
Yeah.
So ministry is messy.
Hello, welcome to the ministry.
But we don't hear nobody preaching that today.
You know, and the fact that you'll go and try to recover a fallen minister, then now you're attacked by association because it's almost like they want to see people fall but never get back up again.
But the Bible speaks against that.
Restore such a one in the spirit of meekness.
And then it makes this statement.
Considering thyself, not knowing when you may be tempted.
So if you give mercy, then mercy's coming back to you.
But if you walk around with a finger of judgment, then you know what?
That's what's going to come back to you too.
You know, I hate to talk about this all the time, but I was Destroyed by about 15 people joined together to try to take over PTL.
But Jesus forgave me, but church people didn't.
Some don't till this day.
But I have forgiven those who came against me, including the 15 who decided to take over the ministry and all.
And now I'm going to heaven.
And then I believe we really need to preach and decree and declare and communicate that the devil hates forgiveness.
Yes, he does.
You know, I was just preaching the other day about the four men in Mark chapter 2 that carried the one man that was paralyzed to Jesus.
Could not get to him because of the press.
So they couldn't get through the door.
They climbed up on the roof to a hole and let the man down to Jesus.
And the Bible says, when Jesus saw their faith, not just the man that was on the band, but he saw the faith of the four.
Everybody needs four good faithful friends.
Yes, amen.
He knows how to pray for you and cover for you.
But then, but listen to what Jesus says.
When they let the man down, even though he was paralyzed, he says, son, thou sins are forgiven.
And then he healed him, but he healed his spirit first.
But then here comes the religious people.
Oh, that's blaspheming.
How can you?
Only God can forgive.
And Jesus says, What's easier for me to forgive, say your sins are forgiven, or to take up your bed and walk?
We have to realize that some of our greatest attacks come from religious spirits.
That's right.
And it's almost like they don't want to see you restored or see you delivered.
See, with the man, the prodigal son, man, I feel the anointing here right now.
The prodigal son, we always talk about the one that strayed, but nobody preaches about the one that stayed.
The father received him back and forgave him, but the elder brother in the house is what we're dealing with today.
Yeah.
Unforgiveness.
Unforgiveness.
He was angry because his brother was back and restored back to wholeness.
Cattle Shortage Looms 00:02:57
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This is one of the, you know, we've been doing food for, what, 20 years or so?
22 decades, that's right.
And it's amazing.
This is the first time that we've had food of meat that will last a shelf life of years.
So I want you to be able to have food ready no matter what happens.
And then you can help others too.
God will bless you for doing it.
Bishop, what does Jesus teach us about forgiving people inside the church or judgment coming from fellow man?
Confronting the Issue 00:07:32
Well, I mean, he sets the stage that if we're offended or hurt by someone, the Bible tells us to go to that individual.
I mean, confront the issue.
How can you fix it?
You know, how can you fix what's broken if you don't know it's broken?
And if a brother offends you, if there's an issue that goes on, you go to that individual, you confront that issue, and that's how you fix it.
It didn't say go to Facebook.
Go to your brother.
That brings an important point, right?
You don't cover it up.
You don't try to act like it never happened.
Absolutely.
I think you have to bring it up to the forefront and be just about it and be honest about it.
And let's confront it in the right way.
Covering it up is just going to bring a lot of problems.
And then people try to pay people off.
I mean, it goes down the line and now you get into a bigger sin situation.
I think understanding what you're covering, understanding this, that every leader needs to have a covering is what you said earlier.
Number one.
Number two, every leader must have accountability partners to be able to guide them in the process of what's going on.
There's a lot of offense and offended people and hurt people because of what a lot of leaders have done the last five years, Bishop, on covering things up and not bringing it to light, not dealing with it with the spiritual covering properly.
And no wonder we have people that are really deep, deep hurt in the church today.
How do we heal from deep hurt?
Well, you just answered basically your own question.
That is confronting the issue.
You can never conquer what you don't confront.
So you confront it, you conquer it, then you kill it.
You know, you put it behind you and you move forward.
But we have to acknowledge the fact that, you know, that we've wounded someone, we've hurt someone.
And like I say, it just can't be all the pew.
The pulpit has caused damage.
You know, people in leadership, we say pulpit, whether you're in a pulpit, whether you're in authority, a place of authority.
Okay, if you hurt someone, then you acknowledge that.
Don't act like it didn't happen.
But when you acknowledge it, amen, you admit it, quit it, and then forget it.
They say you try to move on for restoration and healing, but you have to confront the issue.
Yeah.
It's so clear your heavenly Father will forgive you if you forgive others.
And he says that to forgive them, But if you refuse to forgive them, if you refuse, he will not forgive you.
That's as plain and clear as we can make it.
That's what the Bible says.
It doesn't get any clearer.
There's a German proverb that says, if God didn't forgive, then heaven would be empty.
Wow.
I'm thankful for forgiveness.
And, you know, and I think we should be quick to forgive.
And then you've got another group that says, I'll forgive, but I won't forget it.
You've heard that.
Charles Spurgeon says, if you bury a mad dog, don't leave his tail above ground.
Well, there's a, you know, we're used to saying if you bury the hatchet, don't leave the handle up or mark the site where you can go back and pull it again.
You know, you have to release it to God and then leave the vengeance to God.
Right now, in the last minutes today, we're facing the end of this ministry or the beginning of a new wave of this ministry.
We need forgiveness.
The church needs forgiveness.
And we need to love one another.
Amen.
So ask Jesus into your heart.
Ask him to forgive you of our sin and forgive all of those around you.
I never realized that, you know, Jesus forgives, but he wants me to forgive too.
Amen.
Our time's gone.
This show is just too short for me.
But I want you to call 188-988-1588 or send your check and say, Jim, I'm going to keep this ministry going around the world and let it expand instead of going under.
We can help.
We can do it.
I've seen it before.
I've been at Christian television from the day one that it started many, many years ago.
And God always honors those who are faithful to give and keep the ministry on the air, right, Ricky?
Amen.
Absolutely.
He is faithful.
It's who he is and it's his character, isn't it, Bishop?
Every time God is faithful, amen.
And I believe God will honor the gifts that's sent to expand the kingdom of God.
And this message needs to be preached throughout the world.
And prophets are coming to this station and declaring and giving us the good news on the last days.
That's right.
So remember, God loves you.
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