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May 21, 2025 - Jim Bakker Show
28:12
The Jim Bakker Show with Bishop Ron Webb
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Young Old Man 00:03:47
Welcome to the Jim Baker Family Show.
Today, Bishop Ron Webb and Pastor Jim Baker discuss forgiveness is not forgetting, but letting go of that burden.
Our co-hosts today are Reverend Mondo De La Vega and Pastor Ricky Baker.
And now, here is your host, Pastor Jim Baker.
Thank you very much, and welcome to the PGL show.
I think it's still called that.
That's right.
I thought it's called the Jim Baker Show.
You still have your name on it, though.
Oh, brother, and I'm just an old man.
A young 85 years old.
Mr. Crawford, did you know who helped me found this ministry?
Yeah.
He is the same age as I am.
Oh, wow.
They're about 30 days apart in age.
But he is.
He's amazing.
He's different than I am.
He's a builder.
Yeah, but he treats himself like a car.
That's true.
That man's had heart surgeries, leg replaces.
If something breaks down, he gets rebuilt.
Amen.
That's right.
And his body.
He's like a fine Cadillac.
Well, I want to tell you, this is the most important program I think I've ever been on.
Tell us what it's about.
It's about forgiveness.
Amen.
That's important.
And Bishop Ronnie Webb is my special guest today.
And Mondo is my co-host.
I am here.
Hi, Mondo.
How are you?
I love you.
I love you.
I feel like Jerry Crawford.
My knees are getting rebuilt.
Come on now.
How long have you been with me?
27 years.
27 years.
Yeah, that's almost rich.
How many of you have been with me, Ricky?
I'm only 27 years old.
I've been with you for 24 years.
No, 24 years, roughly.
Can you believe that?
This boy has been with 24.
He came to me.
Mother brought you.
You were four years old.
Amen.
Do you know you were the cutest little boy I've ever seen?
Bishop, he always says the past tense.
No, I get out of here.
Well, you're little.
Everybody when they're little is cute.
But you're still cute.
And now I have a five-year-old daughter.
And you have beautiful children.
We'll put a picture of them up on the screen.
And I'm trying to get your wife to come on the show with you.
I know.
I got to convince her.
She's busy trying to.
She's raising three jobs.
That's right.
She's trying to fix up.
Well, we've got a most important show we've ever done.
Let's talk about it.
Let's get into it.
Give me permission to preach hard.
You keep going.
Well, Matthew, let's look here and see what we can find.
Yes.
Oh, my.
Bishop, I have been studying the word like I never have before.
Yes.
And I'm studying history.
I didn't like history when I was in school, so I didn't take any history much.
And I'm studying everything about America and everything about the world.
And I've learned about Hitler.
Yes.
And I don't really want to study him, but I hear about him.
I learn about him.
I do study him, but he's an evil, evil man.
Confronting Unforgiveness 00:15:49
Absolutely.
A forerunner of the Antichrist, I guarantee you.
He's just a prototype of what the Antichrist is going to do.
On the next show, I'm going to talk about this whole thing, so I won't go into it now.
But I want to talk about the fact that we're in the last days.
And do you know years ago, almost every major country, I've written them all down here, my piece of paper.
Almost every major country had an underground city.
Yes.
Did you know that, Bishop?
Well, on some, on a few, Asia, China, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore.
I can't read my own writing.
Turkey, Rwanda, Beijing, China, France, Poland.
Kansas, British.
Can you remember anything?
I can read your writing.
Yeah.
We have similar handwriting, sadly.
New York.
Even New York has underground.
That's right.
And Poland.
London.
Iran and Paris.
Canada, Scotland.
Kansas City, Missouri, even.
That's right.
I actually knew about Kansas cities.
And Scotland.
But that's just a few.
Why did they build these cities?
I mean, they're huge cities.
They're bigger than above ground in some of them.
That's right.
And millions of people went underground when they were bombing.
And so people are afraid of what can happen in the world.
And this is what happened years ago, 50 years ago, more than that.
People were preparing for atomic warfare.
Yes.
And it got them to the point that when you're that afraid, it changes your character.
It changes the landscape, Bishop.
Yes.
It goes, life moves on.
And I think there's a sermon on this because when you hide, life keeps going.
Absolutely.
What do you think about what happens when someone goes down in the cave and hides from being offended or being hurt?
Because that's what we were talking about.
You know, when people were hiding, they didn't want to get hurt.
That's exactly right.
And you and I and Pastor Jim, we were talking about a sermon that we're about to preach right now.
But this is so key to understand.
We can't keep hiding.
No.
You know, you don't fix anything until you confront the issue.
That's right.
And when you confront it, then you conquer it.
And after you conquer it, then you kill it.
But you can never handle or fix unresolved issues until you bring them to the table.
That's why this subject matter is so important because we've hid it long enough and we've learned how to hide the hurts.
And I've always said down through the years that all the stars are not in Hollywood.
Most of them join church.
And Hollywood needed cheap help.
They could go to the church because all the stars are not there because we've learned to say it's all right even when it's all wrong.
We've learned to say I'm fine even when we're hurting.
So until we confront the issue and then the healing will take place.
You got to be willing to confront it.
You know, I was thinking about this.
I remember, and I'm going to be vulnerable right now and real with you, but I remember that I hurt Ricky one day and I took about 24 hours to really pray about how do I approach my own brother, not trying to defend myself, but to make things right.
And I want to tell you something, Bishop, if I would have hid, I think you and I would not be talking right now.
Yeah.
Right?
The beauty of it is it actually left the interaction with more respect for one another because of that.
What the church does is the church says, you know, I'm going to run, I'm going to hide, I'm not going to confront it out of fear of, you know, wounding a brother.
But what they don't realize is it actually mends you, typically tighter than you were before.
Absolutely.
That was incredible.
No, absolutely.
And that was a teaching lesson for me.
It was a beautiful moment, yeah.
You know, I want to read what I think is one of the most important chapters in the Bible or verses.
Amen.
Just two, two verses.
But it's in Matthew chapter 6.
We love Matthew.
And 14 and 15.
I already know what it's saying.
I want it in the living Bible.
We have a bunch of translations.
It's clear.
Amen.
We got five translations up here, so we'll read them all.
Your heavenly Father will forgive you if you forgive those who sin against you.
But if you refuse to forgive them, he will not forgive you.
Wow.
Did you hear me?
How many heard me?
Yes.
Heard you.
How many do that?
Just forgive everybody.
Amen.
I want to be forgiven.
Don't go to hell because you're mad at somebody.
I could be mad at a lot of people.
People put me in jail.
You know, when I was in prison, God spoke to me.
If I didn't forgive everyone from my heart, I was going to stay there.
I had a 45-year prison sentence.
Yes.
And God let me out in just a couple years.
But I had to forgive.
I would read the names to God and say, Here's their names, God.
I forgive them.
And he said, You haven't forgiven them.
Wow.
He said, You have to forgive from your heart.
Bishop, you understand that?
Absolutely.
I believe that is one of the most powerful scriptures in the entire Bible.
And if you want it, then you have to give it.
And one of our chapters in the book that we're writing is, you can't get it unless you give it.
You have to forgive if you want to be forgiven.
Can you imagine God puts the same authority on us that He has on Himself?
That's right.
He forgives, and He says, I want you to forgive everyone.
And if you'll study this, He wants to do it from my heart.
Absolutely.
Not just word.
You studied this as much as I have or more, probably, Bishop.
And you and I are writing a book, and it's not out yet.
It'll be out in a few months, probably.
But everyone who gives $1,000-that's a lot for a book-but gives $1,000 for this special need we have.
Amen.
Can I read that scripture again?
Because I don't think people know it's in the Bible.
And this is what it says again: that your heavenly Father will forgive you if you forgive those who sin against you.
But if you refuse to forgive them, he will not forgive you.
That's right.
Is that scary?
Barry.
Have you ever had anybody that just wouldn't forgive?
I've talked to people.
You know, it's interesting because in one of the chapters of our book is that I remember over 15 years ago, I was preaching on forgiveness, that you have to forgive people that have hurt you.
Well, we received a phone call where there was an angry person on the other end, and they did leave their number, and they said that we used to enjoy your ministry on TV until you preached this subject.
But when I called them back, they proceeded to tell me what had happened, and there was a very painful, it was a very painful situation.
This young lady's daughter had been raped by her husband, which was her stepfather.
And so she says, now tell me, how do you deal with that?
And you're preaching that you got to forgive.
And she says, I hope this person burns N-H-E-L-L.
I mean, she was extremely angry.
And I said, it doesn't justify his behavior.
What he done was wrong.
And I think that's a point because I remember several weeks ago when we were on the show, Mundo, you raised a question that in our presentation on forgiveness, we can't overlook the fact that people have been severely wounded and hurt.
And so we have to deal with that.
But at the end of the day, the only way that they can get freedom in their spirit or receive freedom is that they have to, the only payment is forgiveness.
If you don't forgive, then you can't be forgiven.
And in our travel and ministering across the country, you know what the number one altar call in America right now is healing and unforgiveness.
But Pastor Ricky, it's not just physical healing when we're speaking of healing.
It's wounds, I mean spiritual healing that people need.
And a lot of it stems from unforgiveness.
There's an African proverb that says, he who forgives ends all quarrels.
That's the end of the deal.
Once you forgive, the devil has no more power.
No more foothold.
No more foothold or stronghold.
After you forgive, it's over.
It's like a debt cancellation.
But forgiveness is not just words.
It's not surface.
You have to live in that forgiveness.
I forgive.
I have nothing against anyone.
I want to go to heaven.
I don't want God to say, you're not going to make it, Jim.
You didn't forgive people.
And I know God's forgiven my sins.
Yes.
So he says you are to forgive other people their sin.
Amen.
And I think that is shocking for a lot of people.
You know, it's freely we have been given.
Freely we should be giving.
You know, the cross, none of us are good enough to make it into heaven without the cross.
We need forgiveness of our sins.
And it's only right since we have been forgiven so much.
And every one of you who are watching this right now, you can look in a mirror and realize how much you have been forgiven.
Even grandma in the church, who looks like she's never sinned, looks in that mirror and realizes I've been forgiven much.
So we should forgive much.
As much as it is a painful thing, Bishop, I want to ask you that.
How do you forgive out of a place of hurt?
You just told that story about that woman who said, you know, this horrible thing had happened to my daughter.
But we see other ministers, people who go to church every single Sunday and Wednesday, and they're trying to work through it, but they still feel like it's a barrier they can't crawl over.
It's a sore.
It's a sore.
And I even hear people say, well, I'll forgive, but I'll never forget.
Well, what I tell people there is that, you know, you've got a scar, and the scar is a reminder of where the wound used to be.
So, you have to look at it, although that scar reminds me of a past hurt, but it's healed now.
Yeah, but out of a place of hurt, that's what we're dealing with.
Because as soon as you start preaching and teaching and talking about forgiveness, people will tell you the story.
That's right.
But what if this happened to you?
Well, that doesn't justify anything.
We still have to forgive.
I know preachers right now that say, I'll never return to a pulpit after what people have done to me.
But I've heard people say, After what the preacher done to me, I'll never return to church.
Wow.
See, it goes both ways.
Nobody's exempt.
And in this book, you're going to see we're business partners, and some were Christian businessmen, and the other one was robbing, you know, the business.
You know, I want to ask you something.
What about some of these famous preachers, not myself, other famous, who have fallen desperately that had massive churches, and they're not being restored.
Then nobody's going to restore them.
Aren't we supposed to restore all people?
Well, and because they have mass ministries, they're not exempt.
And what people have to understand, the same grace for the pew works for the pulpit.
You know, we just can't preach grace to the people and then we not be a recipient of that same grace.
We need the same grace.
But in these last days, everyone must be a redeemer.
We need to redeem people.
We need to forgive them.
That's right.
And restore them.
Yeah, because we're going to need mercy.
And you raised a question, man, you're all in our book right now.
I'm telling you, they're not going to read it because you're putting all the information out here.
But this is so important because I think this is going to be the most important book you and I have ever written.
I know it's fine.
I believe that from my heart because we live in a world now where preachers are falling, Christians are falling, but none of them are being restored.
And you know what, Ricky?
There's whole ministries that just deal with the fallen minister who preaches against them.
Yes.
Well, I don't know if I'd go as far as calling them ministries, but there are whole organizations of people who just bash other ministries.
Yeah.
They think it's their full-time job to put the everybody else's eye.
That's against the scripture when the Bible tells us to restore such a one.
Your heavenly Father will forgive you if you forgive those who have sinned against you.
But if you refuse to forgive them, he will not forgive you.
That's very powerful.
Absolutely.
So in the Greek, this is powerful, right?
Watch this.
In the Greek, it says that if God, if you hold on to your debt, meaning if you hold on to other people's debt, that means that God cannot release you off your debt.
Absolutely.
So the whole thing is, if you want your release from God's debt, your sin of forgiveness, then the Bible teaches in the Greek on this scripture four times it deals with forgiveness on those two verses, meaning that if you want your debt to be released from heaven, then here on earth, we got to release people from their offenses.
It goes back to you can't get it unless you give it.
Attacks on Restoration 00:07:47
And then back to your point, I really want to hone in on this because this is so important.
And that is, we have not been trained or taught to how to properly restore a brother.
That's right.
And then here's what happens.
Even when you go not necessarily to their defense, but when you go to the point of restoration, then you're attacked for association.
You see what I'm saying?
There's an attack just by trying to help the person and restore them.
And now the world comes after you.
Even the Christian world tries to destroy you simply because of attack by association.
And I think that's been one of the biggest schemes of the enemy over the last decade is to get people fearful to reach the hand out to a fallen brother.
There you go.
There you go.
And I want to say something because people, this is the most important sermon I've ever preached, the most powerful subject.
And if people in the church are not forgiving of each other, it's going to hurt the church.
It's going to hurt them.
The Bible says you won't even be saved.
You won't even go to heaven.
So why do you want to hate people?
Why do you want to not forgive them?
You just live and forgive everybody.
But, Pastor, I believe we're not hearing this message as much as we need to hear it.
This show is so important, but this message needs to be preached throughout the whole world because if we don't forgive, simply we can't be forgiven.
We'll be right back after this message.
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If you want to know what's coming, read the Revelation, and it's pretty shocking.
I've read the whole book this week, and it just, it's just unbelievable.
And I believe the church is probably going through the tribulation because he says after the tribulation, Jesus comes.
So I don't know.
It's up to you to decide.
Don't be shocked if you go through some horrible things on earth.
But we've got to forgive each other.
Forgive the pastor if he'd hurt you.
Forgive your neighbor, your friends.
And I have just spent a lifetime.
And when I was in prison, God spoke to my heart that if I didn't forgive them all, and I had a list of about 100 names or so.
And I would read them to God.
Yes.
And he said, that wasn't forgiveness.
He said, I had to do it from my heart.
And then, and that's why it took time for me to be released from prison.
And God released me when I forgave everyone from my heart.
And I want you to ask Jesus to come into your heart.
I want you to ask Him to forgive you of anything that you have against somebody.
Whatever.
Whatever, right?
Oh, absolutely.
That is so powerful.
And I like that idea.
Maybe there are people watching right now and they say, man, I got a list as long as my left leg.
Well, guess what?
Write those names down.
It's okay.
Present them to God and ask God to forgive from your heart.
And you know what?
God will grant that and then bring healing to you.
I love that idea.
And it is wonderful to live free and not have anything against anybody.
Just you forget it.
You got to throw it out of your mind.
It doesn't have to be.
If you don't, you're living in a prison for the rest of your life.
That's right.
A spiritual prison.
How do we show our children that we forgive?
By demonstration.
That's right.
They watch us.
They watch us.
They hear us, but then they watch us and they see us interact with other people.
And your children know when you've been hurt by others and they see.
What are some of the signs that you see on unforgiveness?
Oh, anger, resentment, and then the root of bitterness.
And Paul says, you got to be careful that you don't get a root of bitterness.
Yes.
And then he says, vengeance belongs to God.
But if you take vengeance in your own hand, there's never, there's never nothing that will satisfy that feeling other than forgiveness itself.
Pastor Ricky said something in the green room.
And I think on our last show that we were together, is that the next spiritual awakening and revival that hits America is going to come through forgiveness.
Amen.
I believe it with all my heart.
And our time is gone for this show already.
Wow.
Bishop, forgive me for having quick shows now.
But it's a sign of the times.
Jesus is coming soon.
Make sure you're ready.
Yes.
Talk to him every day.
Ask him to forgive you of all your sins.
And he says he'll bury them in the deepest sea.
In fact, I repent too much because God told me so.
But, you know, I want to make sure all my sins are under the blood.
And even sins I did 50 years ago, I want them under the blood.
Amen.
Let's have short accounts with God.
Let's make sure that we've confessed our sins and he's forgiven us of all unrighteousness.
And it's time for us to stand together.
God loves you.
He really does.
Amen.
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