Pam Reynolds recounts her 1991 NDE during a Barrow Institute surgery—clinically dead for hours, cooled to 58°F—where she saw deceased relatives in perfect form and received golden, time-engraved details about Earth’s polar shifts, volcanic activity, and a 2012 "consciousness breakthrough," not apocalypse. Her IQ (160) and memory remained intact post-surgery despite flatlined EEGs, contradicting conventional science. Callers like Stephanie (1969 car accident NDE) and Clifford Carnicom echo her claims of retained cognition without brain activity, while Reynolds dismisses skepticism, framing it as a universal "physical law." The discussion blurs boundaries between science, spirituality, and reality itself, suggesting consciousness transcends biological limits. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I vid you all.
Good evening, good afternoon, good morning, wherever you may be in all 24 time zones circling the globe.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
Well, this is interesting.
For the first time in my recent memory, the newscasts are not leading with war news.
It's actually number three before you get to war news.
The big news is the president's administration is abandoning an eight-year $1.5 billion program to produce highly fuel-efficient cars in favor of a government-industry push to develop vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells.
Energy Secretary Professor Abraham planned to announce details of the new program dubbed Freedom Car.
So I told you at the beginning of the program yesterday that I had a lot of questions about energy and hydrogen specifically.
And while I had a lot of fun with the program last night, I didn't get any of those questions answered.
So we will try again soon.
Same questions.
And we'll find a guest who can answer them.
Now, coming up in a moment, as you know or may not know, the internet has been full of it.
The cattle mutilations have begun in real earnest in Montana.
Oh my, oh my, what's going on in Montana?
And Dr. Kelleher, Columb Kelleher, will tell us about it in a moment.
Dr. Kelleher, a staff member of the National Institute of Discovery Science, is a research scientist and deputy administrator, where his responsibilities include overseeing NIDS research projects.
Dr. Kelleher received his B.S. in biochemistry from the University of College, Dublin, as you will note with his accent and a PhD in biochemistry from the University of Dublin, Trinity College.
Until 1996, Dr. Kelleher was an instructor at the National Jewish Center for Immunology, Denver, where his research projects included molecular biology of Epsom-Barr virus infection of human B and T cells,
expression of human androgynous retrovirus-like transponson sequences, and probably messing that up in human immune cells, HIV infection of human thymocytes, thymocytes, I guess it is, an expression of human nerve growth factor receptors on human B cells.
Good Lord.
He's been a research associate at the Molecular Genetics Lab, Terry Fox Laboratory, British Columbia Cancer Agency, Vancouver, B.C., served as post-doctorate fellow of the Ontario Cancer Institute, Toronto, was a recipient of a National Science and Engineering Research Council Canada Award in Biochemistry in 1985 and a W.P. Craven Memorial Award in Medical Sciences in 1986.
Dr. Keller has co-authored, authored actually and co-authored 38 peer-reviewed publications in molecular immunology, virology, and biochemistry.
He's also published numerous articles for the layperson in magazines like Omni.
And he knows all about what's going on or what's been going on in Montana coming up in a moment.
Now from Nids, right across the hump from Pahrump in Las Vegas.
Well, it seems like it's been very, very busy up there.
We actually started getting calls at the end of June from law enforcement and people and ranchers up there, right at the end of June.
And sporadically, over the last six months, we've had eight to nine different reports of animal mutilations.
But recently, I just came across this newspaper article in which they're talking about over a dozen reports of mutilations in a small triangle northwest of Great Falls, Montana.
Yes, there are three towns actually that seem to be the epicenter, and one of them is called Dupuer.
There's a second one called Valier and the third one called Conrad.
They form a triangle and they're all about 80 miles to 100 miles northwest of Great Falls, Montana.
Now you probably remember we had talked before on the show about probably 50 to 70 mutilations in the 70s that were centered around Great Falls, Montana.
Maelstrom Air Force Base, a 40-mile radius around there.
Well, the epicenter of this mutilation wave seems to be about 80 miles northwest of where the main action was happening in the 1970s.
And they all seem to have the same MO.
In other words, most of the animals that we've heard about have their tissue and the hide from the jaw has been stripped.
One of the eyes, one of the ears is gone, usually the genitals on the rear end.
So it's a standard MO.
And one of the interesting parts of the first mutilation that happened was it also happened to be the freshest.
Usually the rancher will either call us or call local law enforcement, and then law enforcement will call us.
So obviously we like to get the quickest way of getting a veterinarian up there.
But in this particular case, it was the law enforcement people who had already seen the animal who had called us.
And this was one at the end of June in Dupuer, Montana.
So there was a real problem getting a veterinarian to the scene, and we knew from the description of the investigators that this looked like a really good case.
So we persuaded the law enforcement people to saw the head off the animal on the spot because there was a bright fluorescent greenish-colored piece of tissue underneath the jaw of the animal that sounded really interesting to us.
We got cow's head in the mail, and we immediately stuck it into, we've got a minus 85-degree freezer here that we use for that kind of thing so that we can really make sure that decomposition stops because the whole essence of this game is to get in before decomposition happens.
Very briefly, we did several different things that were new in this particular case because we had been doing a lot of searching around to see what the best possible way of getting to the heart of this whole mystery was.
So we decided to adopt a much more forensic approach.
So the first thing we did was we ran a second animal in parallel with this first mutilated animal as a sham or control.
We got an animal from a slaughterhouse up in Utah and stuck it out there in the elements, protected it from predators, scavengers, left it to decompose for four days as a sham or control.
So then we ran both animals in this analysis in parallel.
And we sampled, the first thing we sampled was the eye fluid from this animal, which the forensic people told us was the best possible snapshot of what was going on in the animal.
Then we actually went into the maggot mass of the animal and we started analyzing that and looking at ways to get the maximum amount of information from the maggot mass.
So we were conducting all of this stuff was not the business as usual bacteriology, virology, which has been done in the past and which tends to rule out stuff.
We were trying to do some kind of a subtraction between the control animal and the mutilated animal.
subtract to see if there are any molecules in the mutilated animals that were not in the control animal.
So we used the greenish colored tissue under the jaw and we used the eye fluid for this purpose.
And so what we did was we sent the eye fluid and the greenish colored tissue to two separate labs for a whole set of procedures that essentially was a subtraction analysis.
And the upshot of this whole thing was that we found a compound called oxendole.
Yeah, we think this new approach that we've adopted for this animal, if we can follow through with several other animals and we can find similar things, I think we could be on to something.
And we're not sure if we did not find it in the control animal, and we're trying to figure out whether or not it really should be in the mutilated animal.
But one of the uses that it is routinely used for in phlebotomy, drawing blood samples, that kind of thing, is for inflaming the surface of the skin prior to either injecting something in.
In other words, it raises veins from the skin so that you can either take blood samples or you can inject something in.
That's one of the uses for xylene.
Now there are multiple other uses.
And we're still following that up.
We're a lot more sure of the oxendole than we are of the xylene.
But we think that this subtraction analysis procedure that we've done, which we think is the first time it's been done in animal mutilation research, we think this is the way to go for animals in the future.
Not necessarily, but certainly we're not going to rule that out because we think that there's been multiple indirect clues over the last we've been doing this kind of research for about five years now, and I think we're getting better as time goes on at asking the relevant questions.
But in talking with law enforcement people from all around the country and in some of the stuff that we've found, like this oxendole, for example, there does seem to be some kind of possible human involvement.
Has it occurred to you you might be getting too close?
In other words, if there is something really serious behind this, whatever it is, and we can imagine all kinds of things, once you begin pinning it down the way you just did tonight, I doubt there's a whole lot of oxendol in Montana.
It may not be a hard trek to figure out to get a whole lot closer to the people, persons, whatever is doing this.
We have investigated cases where predators will go for, or scavengers will go for a mutilated animal, and then we've had other cases where they won't touch it.
I know a lot of the reports that came out of Montana, the law enforcement people have said that time and again in Montana that predator scavengers will not touch these animals.
And we've seen the same thing.
We've seen it in Utah.
We've seen it elsewhere where predator scavengers will not touch a certain percentage of the animals.
But we've investigated cases in New Mexico where it's been obvious that predator damage has happened subsequent to mutilation.
This is the first hard science news that we've had, first hard lead that we've ever had ever in animal mutilations.
The use of an experimental drug called Oxendall.
That's liable to lead somewhere.
My guest is Column Culliher, who is the administrator of NIDS.
And NIDS is an organization that, if you don't know about it, funded by Robert Bigelow, an amazing man himself, that has, you know, it has the resources to go and do cunts of things you're hearing about tonight, find out what really is going on with something.
In this case, animal mutilations, and of course, they do a lot more.
We'll get right back to it.
It may not mean anything or have any connection at all,
but the Gazette, the Billings Gazette, is running a story today saying, unusual white lights were spotted hovering over the west end of Billings Saturday at about 6 p.m.
A Billings woman who asked that her name not be printed, understand that, and her husband were in their pickup truckle and they spotted a lighted half-spherical object hovering about a thousand feet above an area near 36th Street West.
The object had one flashing light for about four minutes.
My husband knows airplanes.
She said those aren't any airplane lights, said he.
And as soon as he did, it took off within two seconds.
We couldn't see it.
It was that fast.
Now, another Billings man who spends the majority of his evenings riding a bicycle in the downtown area said he also saw the object, thought it was some sort of jet or something.
And these are pretty far apart geographically in Montana, so there may be no relationship, but it is interesting.
Once again, Column Culliher.
So, Colum, is that that's pretty much the net result?
It's a big one of the investigation you've done on in this particular case.
And he was telling me on the telephone that he had the cattle inspector and he had a variety of people out very, very quickly when he saw the state of his animal because it was pretty obviously foul play in his mind.
And, of course, nobody else took it seriously, but then this politician who did not want his name associated with cattle mutilations, he has probably said, yes, lightning.
This looked part of the rear of the animal was removed, and it did look, according to the investigators, it looked really sharp.
The instruments looked really sharp.
We focused on the head because it was the only, it was, to us, it contained most of the evidence.
In other words, it contained a possible injection point around the neck of the animal just below the jawbone, although we did not see, or the investigators did not see, an actual puncture in the jugular.
But that greenish-colored tissue right under the jaws to us suggested the addition of some kind of compound.
So we focused on that.
We didn't focus too much on the rear end of the animal because we've spent a lot of time in the past using veterinary pathology techniques to distinguish between sharp instruments and predator scavengers.
And we've actually published a kind of a baseline study on our website saying, or actually showing the pictures in graphic detail the differences between what tearing and predator scavenger activity on tissue looks like compared to sharp instruments.
There really is a big difference under low power microscope and using various staining techniques.
Based on what happens to these animals, based on, and there is a great similarity in the way the mutilations seem to be done and the parts that are taken and all the rest of it, can anybody go out on a limb like you and do any supposition, any speculation at all on based on what's taken, would there be any motives suggested?
Well, there's several parts to this, including what's taken from an animal, but also there's a definite undercurrent of ritual, we think, in a lot of these animal mutilation cases.
Sometimes the animals are very carefully laid out.
I'll give you one example.
I mentioned that there were two relatively recent cases from California, Northern California.
One of those animals had its left eye cord out, and the eyeball in pristine condition was laid on the grass facing the animal that had been mutilated.
And at the same time, most of the inner organs of the animal were completely missing.
Now we've come across a similar case actually in Utah where a young calf was essentially denuded of internal organs and perfectly laid out on the grass with not a drop of blood.
And this was exactly the same as the case in Northern California where the animal was obviously really fresh.
The eyeball was still intact, perfectly fresh, not touched by scavengers, predators, and placed very carefully facing the animal.
You know, there's obviously an element of ritual an element of symbolism.
You know, you can really start going into the semiotics, the symbolism behind all of this.
And we think that's a feature of the mutilation phenomenon, the display element, that there is a message in the display as well as the actual tissues that are taken.
all right now back to the thing that really bothers me uh... what is law enforcement say about the lack of any human artifact you know as in footprint or activity or i mean throughout the history of uh... these mutilations uh... nobody's ever been caught and prosecuted far as i know right That's correct.
And we've talked to FBI agents, we've talked to law enforcement people, and they all say that it's just really unusual to go 30 years, you know, multiple, multiple cases, hundreds, possibly even thousands of animals have gone down and mutilated over the last 30 years, and not a single person has been caught or charged.
They've investigated all of the low-level cults, you know, the chickens and goats kind of people in the locales.
But it's a very, very different ballgame to go into a pasture and to tackle a 2,000-pound bull, of which there have been many mutilated.
It just requires a completely different level of expertise.
And we are talking about surgical expertise, too.
One of the cases that we're currently working with came from near Logan, Utah.
And I talked to the veterinarian who'd done the autopsy of the animal in the field.
He said it was a standard of surgical procedure that he said he would be very, very difficult to mimic.
In other words, it was an extraordinarily carefully done mutilation involving intricate surgical technique that, you know, he really marveled at how good the technique was.
I don't even know whether this is relevant or not, but I used to interview a great man, Father Malachi Martin, in New York.
He was an exorcist Catholic priest, and he was talking about the influence of evil and the amount of evil being practiced across the United States.
And he said that so many people are utterly unaware of the amount of evil being practiced, even organized evil.
And he said it was on an increase that you just simply would not believe with exorcisms in the New York area being up 800%, but all the way across the country.
And you've talked about ritual, and I don't know, it just seems like there might be something there.
Well, it's an interesting thought because we have been really struck by the parallels in some of these cases of the obvious symbolism, the obvious ritual.
And quite frankly, we're also taken with the kinds of skill that's been used on these animals, the surgical skill, and also the fact that nobody's been ever caught.
But even the act of cutting out a large segment of a cow hide, for example, and not leaving any blood on the tissue that's left is not easy to do.
Actually, we went through the procedure only in the last couple of months of stripping, removing the hide from the head of the animal that we received from Montana.
And literally, that was a very painstaking operation that took probably close to three hours.
And this was an expert in forensics.
Granted, he hadn't done too much on cattle, but he was very used to wielding sharp knives and scalpels.
And it took him three hours just to strip the hide off the head of an animal.
Whereas in the field, you get large amounts of hide stripped off these animals with absolutely no incisions into the tissue.
Well, kind of hard to get cameras on cows and just keep them there.
But you know what?
I have this horrid little strange feeling that if you did manage to get a cow cam on a cow that actually got mutilated, you'd get a result like you got up on the ranch between the poles.
And we never caught anything on the camera except the kinds of weird stuff that you've just alluded to, which is impossible to explain or it's certainly difficult to explain using normal rational explanations.
Well, that's the reason why you reach out toward the paranormal to try and explain this because you're left almost with nothing else when you look at motive, except perhaps the ritual aspect that you point to.
Yeah, there's the ritual aspect and then there's the small number of mutilated animals who have obvious puncture marks in the jugular.
You know, there's the law enforcement officers up in Montana who had worked a lot of the Great Falls cases where the Great Falls, Montana cases, were telling us small numbers of animals with these really obvious punctures in the jugular veins of the animal.
At the same time, we had reported on a case from Montana where the animal was rolled over during an examination of a mutilated animal in Montana.
And underneath the animal, there was a six-inch hypodermic needle.
Yeah, well, it did have blood in it, and it didn't have anything unusual beyond the usual blood, and it was lying directly under a mutilated animal.
It was the kind of large gauge needle that you would use if you were going to empty an animal or at least take a lot of blood from an animal.
But that's the kind of indirect evidence I've been talking about.
We've talked a lot to law enforcement people who insist around the country during the 70s and lately even, who insist that there are helicopters associated with animal mutilation.
Well, we are really fortunate to be working with several very motivated police officers up there in Montana.
And it's kind of like a throwback to some of the law enforcement officers who were working these cases in the 70s and who got very, very frustrated because they never solved them.
They have passed some of their expertise on to this new generation up in northwest Montana.
And they're kind of carrying on the investigations.
But they're highly motivated.
I should say that the majority of law enforcement people that we know of are less than motivated to solve these crimes because they're just too weird.
So only a subset of the law enforcement people that we know of are really motivated to go after this.
And we're really fortunate that we're working with these people.
You can say the same thing in the veterinarian profession.
Only a subset of veterinarians will bother to actually go out and do an necropsy or autopsy on an animal.
The vast majority of veterinarians do not want to know about animal mutilations because it's too weird.
It impacts their careers adversely.
It gives them a reputation in the community that they do not want to deal with.
So they prefer to stay away.
And again, it's taken a lot of time for us in terms of networking to start connecting with these small number of veterinarians and small number of law enforcement people.
Listen, I know that you have a hotline at NIDS for reporting all kinds of things like this and other inexplicable things that you actually do have the power, if you decide the case warrants it, to investigate on the spot with the proper scientific personnel.
We guarantee absolute confidentiality of all ranchers and police officers and veterinarians who work with us because we know that reputations can sour pretty easily if their names are publicized.
And if police officers want to publicize their names independently of us, that's fine.
If you have something you'd like to report, you might want to just sort of put this on a piece of paper and plaster it on your fridge or near your phone or something.
There are some rides you might not wish to take, like the one Pam Reynolds took.
Pam Reynolds is coming up in a moment.
She's a practicing musician, wife, and mother of three, and a member of a very prominent music publishing family.
In 1991, she underwent one of the most fantastic surgical procedures ever performed.
Dr. Robert F. Spetzler, director of the Barrow Institute for Neurology in Phoenix, Arizona, and his team of daring surgeons clipped an aneurysm in her brain by a process known as, in quotes, stand still.
Her body was cooled to 58 degrees Fahrenheit, her heart stopped, most of her blood drained from her body.
In short, Pam Reynolds was dead.
While in this state, she encountered one of the most remarkable near-death experiences ever documented, or was it a death experience, actually.
Ten years later, hers remains the most scientifically documented case on record.
48 Hours did a story on her.
You may have seen that.
48 Hours, though, an in-depth magazine show would never in the world have the sort of time that we have to cover a story of this magnitude.
But I guess he well, what did he tell you or what I guess you then, of course, went to specialists, and they began to tell you, what did they say your chances were?
I got in the car, left the last specialist, and my husband and I got in the car and went immediately to our attorney's office for the filing of my last will and testament.
I think I was in a state of shock, and thank God for shock, because in my case, it allowed me to very easily go through the motions of getting things taken care of.
And being a mother, I wasn't so concerned with myself as I was for my children.
The way my wife and I are, as close as we are, it's unimaginable to lose her.
So to have sort of notification that you're about.
That's just too much.
So did your personal doctor give you any, well, listen, you've got, we're going to estimate you've got weeks or months or a year to live, or what did he tell you?
Well, we just we got real blessed at that point in time.
My mother was a physician's assistant for many years until she retired, and many of my dearest friends are physicians and have been all of my life.
And I heard this incredible story about a doctor who was performing this daring surgery, whereby they literally put the body in a state of stasis, draining all the blood, taking the temperature down to 58 degrees Fahrenheit, stopping the heart, no brain waves.
Yes, we immediately contacted Barrow Institute and sent our records out, and I was found to be an extremely good candidate for the surgery because in every other way I was perfectly healthy and very strong.
Well, nevertheless, though, I mean, you're balancing the possibility of another month of life against the possibility of death on the operating table, and I'm sure you and your husband talked that one over.
You know, really, we didn't spend a lot of time with that because with the surgical procedure, we felt like we had an opportunity to live out the entire lifetime.
So we didn't really look at it as another month of life or choose on the table.
Now, when you went down there to talk to him, was your expectation that you were going to have this operation right away, or did you just think you were going to go see him and maybe have some tests and that sort of thing, and then come home and then maybe come back and have the operation?
Good, because I just, you know, what you went through is so incredible that I really want to fully understand it.
And I can only do that by, I guess, understanding the mood.
So you went, I understand it's really important that somebody go into an operation like this with a lot of confidence, a lot of hope, a lot of, you know, good feelings and not negativity.
They rolled you in, and even though you didn't completely understand what they were going to do, you did at least understand your heart was going to come to a stop.
All right, again, you know, we're on this risk thing, and even though he gave you great amounts of confidence, and I understand why he would want to do that and why it would be good for you, nevertheless, at some point, he had a responsibility, I think, to, you know, to explain to you that there was a pretty serious risk.
So then, so in you go, and it looks pretty good, and I guess they're saying we're about to give you a little bit of this or that and count backwards for us or the trees, you know, whatever.
No, not necessarily because I think, you know, in mortuaries, I don't want to get too morbid, but they drain the blood there without the heart pumping.
So obviously, there must be a way to do it.
I'm not a medical expert.
So there must be a way to do it.
So they cool you off, and then they drain all your blood, and this is stored in a blood vap.
But the feeling of coming out of it, especially having endured so much pain for so long, the feeling was total freedom, total peace, just complete serenity.
But it's almost like I could smell fresh, new, just the feeling of being a garden.
But now, remember, I was not permitted to go all the way through.
I was stopped and detained at one point and told or communicated to that if I were allowed to go any further, something, a physical change would occur, and they would be unable to reconnect the spiritual me to the physical me.
So I was held there and not permitted to go all the way in.
Oh, that's a fabulous question, because when I first got there, my first thought was, I hope I'm in the right place because I have not lived a perfect life.
I've always been a loving person, but, you know, I was taught in a very stringent Christian environment that if you screw up, guess where you go?
So after the relatives or with them, after chatting with them, some voice or something imparted to you in what way that, listen, you can't really go any further.
However, in terms of linear time, the physicians who investigated the case tell me that my recount of the experience matched perfectly with the timing of the surgery.
Yeah, but as you began to give him details of what you could not possibly, not possibly have known, this must have been a little difficult for him to handle.
He's certainly, although it doesn't correspond with what he knows about the brain, I believe he said on one of the Discovery Channel programs, he certainly is not all knowing enough to say it didn't happen.
And it is quite unusual that those kinds of details in that great of number would be so forthcoming so quickly after the process.
Well, I guess this is a kind of an ultimate question, Pam, but if you had no brain waves, you had no neural functions firing, your brain was dead meat.
Not only that, but when I came back into the body, and it still to this day astounds me, Art, that I'm able to recall this, that are registered and downloaded, and it's such a vivid memory, it's as if it's still happening.
And how does that happen?
See, that, to me, is one of those physical answers that I believe is knowable.
Do you think that it, of course, there's not going to be a way for you to answer this unless you had a conversation, but do you think it's going to be the same for everybody or an individual experience for everybody?
And it was also communicated to me that even though I didn't see them and talk with them on a daily basis, that they were able to come here and be with us.
So, I mean, for a while, I was a little nervous about getting in the shower.
The way that I was introduced to Dr. Michael Sabaum, who did the initial research on this case, was I went in for an appointment with a neurologist, and I had had a concussion to the back of the head and a severe brain injury after the surgery.
And she told me, in a very solemn way, that I was left with a condition that could easily take my life.
That's another thing that's happened to a lot of people who have done nearly what you have done, and that is that they have a heightened sense of psychic ability.
I think what I saw, the 48 Hours piece on Pam Reynolds, you may have seen it too.
They kind of left the piece by asking the really big question, and that was: during the time there were no brain waves, zip zero, nothing, where was Pam Reynolds?
Where was she?
We'll be right back.
Once again, from Atlanta, Georgia, Pam Reynolds.
Pam, during the time that you were gone, if that's the right word, gone, did you have any larger sense of the world?
And I literally had the sensation of being fed and nurtured.
And again, there comes that physical element.
And I had since then, I came back with assure and certain knowledge of the way we were going and how we were getting there and how we could avoid getting there.
Well, I don't see the end of the world, but I do see a breakthrough in physics that will cause us to understand the space-time continuum and how terribly wrong we are to look at time as a linear thing.
We don't understand that everything that has ever happened and will ever happen is actually happening right now.
That linear time is a man-made device in order for us to control our environment, to be able to label it and move within the physical structure that we're in.
And it has really no relativity whatsoever outside of the human condition.
And there's also, Pam, you know, there's mounting evidence now that what we had previously thought about what happened here on earth in man's history is all wrong.
About six months ago, Pam, I began breaking a story about this remarkable find 2,200 feet, almost a half a mile below the water in Cuba of this, what appears to be an urban area city.
And just tonight on CNN, MSNBC, Reuters, they're breaking the story themselves that there's been this urban city found way below the water in Cuba.
It's breaking the mainstream press.
So, you know, it would tend to underscore what you're saying right now.
The thing is, you know, I really believe that with all of our technology, we are so vulnerable to destruction because we all use computers, but can we build one?
And can we network all of these wonderful things that we have?
I think not.
We're too specialized for that.
And if we have a shutdown or a meltdown, we're right back to planting the seed and harvesting just to stay alive.
So it's very easy for me to see how advanced civilizations could go from that kind of advancement right back to agriculture.
In this great download of information that occurred to you, was there anything with regard to what's happening in the world, the environment of the world itself?
And it's not, but again, I can't say that that's purely psychic phenomenon because there was so much information available that I obviously with an IQ of 160.
But the big barrier, Pam, the big barrier, and what I cannot understand, rationalize in any scientific way known to mankind or in my own mind, is that, look, once, I mean, your heart can stop.
A little oxygen still to the brain, fine.
But when they take out all your blood, your heart stops, and then your brainwave totally goes flat line.
And the time that you spent gone seemed to, though there was no real relationship, what you were able to tell them later seemed to coincide with the hour?
Do you remember whether the movement you saw in the operating room and around you was whether people were moving at normal speed, speaking in normal speech?
You know, in an attempt to explain what you're talking about right now, a lot of neurosurgeons have said, oh, well, you know, the brain dies from the outside moving inward.
So this pinpoint of light is the very center of the brain or the last place where the neurons are firing.
And so they explain that as the tunnel and the light at the end of the tunnel.
So the very last bastion for the brain wave theory is that they don't believe that the equipment, the technology we have, sensitive enough to pick up the minute brain activity that may have been occurring but I am told for an hour without oxygen I don't think so.
I don't think so either, and neither do my doctors.
They feel like if that kind of hallucination would definitely have recorded, we would have seen something.
And the whole theory behind I heard what was going on in the operating room and built a picture, they put speakers in my ears that made such a loud clicking noise that I'm told if I were fully conscious, I couldn't have heard a thing.
Were you a spiritual person before this in the sense of even considering things like our environment, earth changes, what's happening in the Middle East, all of this information that was downloaded to you?
I wonder if that would be, and I've wondered about this in recent days, whether that would be a good thing.
If we conclusively, scientifically prove that consciousness not only continues, but is enhanced following physical death, what kind of effect that's going to have on the world and all the people in it.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Pam.
Hi.
unidentified
Hello, this is Joanne from Pasadena, and I have a question for Pam.
Sure.
I am a doctor of chiropractic, and I've been doing a little research on the body-mind stress relationship to health and the manifestation of illnesses in the body, and finding that virtually every one of them has some kind of negative thoughts or negative emotions behind them.
Breathless Dreams00:15:30
unidentified
So, my question to you is: do you remember when you were a child ever having had the wind knocked out of you to where you were not sure you would ever get it back?
And I have found three people, so that's why I ask, and I don't know if you have anyone who is alive that you could ask that question of, if when you were a child, perhaps that might have happened to you.
But I know three people who have had either aneurysms or one was cancer, in which they did live through it, but they had all the thing in common that they had had the wind knocked out of them, which means they set a negative thought up in their mind which said, I'm going to die if I do not get my breath back.
And those literal words were like an energy that was set up there.
That's what I'm postulating.
I'm going to die if I don't get my breath back.
And then it takes many years before it manifests.
With these people, it took around, you know, 20-some odd years before it manifested.
And so, anyway, that was the question.
And then I had a, so, you know, it'd be really interesting if you could find from a sister or brother or anyone else that was living if they know if that ever happened to you.
No, no, it's listen, we'll cut it off there, but it's a very good point.
In other words, we tromping around earth doing whatever we do every day, we think of this as reality.
But the sense that I got from listening to you, Pam, was that there was a much greater reality, a much heightened sense of consciousness and reality where you were than here.
I got the feeling coming back into the body and being there a day or two that 99% of the people around me were asleep, and the rest of us were in a profound state of shock from what we were seeing.
If it is a better place, then there is a heightened sense of consciousness of everything, which is a joyful experience.
Right.
With me, when I had my little blast in Paris, I just, it was so overwhelming and so shocking that I blasted myself back into my body very, very quickly.
But boy, talk about an overwhelming, indescribable.
I tried to find words for it and tell my audience, and I really couldn't.
And I kind of got the impression that the reason we're in school in these dense bodies is because you don't give Porsches to three-year-olds because they can't ride.
And how, I mean, I've been listening to your show now a couple weeks, so I'm brand new, but I heard the Sean David Morton show on the remote viewing, and a lot of what she said ties into that.
It's like when you have a dream, when you awake immediately, you have this very vivid image of what the dream was, and then as it goes, you sort of lose it.
I guess this is the opposite.
Exactly.
It's sort of like you took a picture, and now you're able to examine the details of the picture.
Yeah, I was just completely floored by the similarities in what she said about her, I don't want to call them predictions so much as what she saw in her downloading and the similarities in the remote viewing that Sean was talking about.
I saw a program on television, Discovery for 48 Hours, where at the very end, you were telling your story, and you said when you met up with your relative, you felt as though you were standing in the breath of God, and it caused me to basically jump up and go, she's right, she's right.
It was just something that I knew instinctively was correct.
As I told Art just a little while ago, when I asked the nature of the light, it was explained to me that the light was not in and of itself God, but it was what happened when he respirated.
Right.
And at that time, at that exact moment, I thought, wow, I'm standing in the breath of God.
unidentified
Okay, so someone told you before you said that then?
Well, that it was communicated to me when I was on the other side.
unidentified
Wow.
Right, and I feel that that is very correct.
I don't know why, just instinctively.
My second question is, with everything that you've been through in your life, the way you were raised, and now what you've gone through, do you feel or do you know whether or not the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is relevant or important, should be paid attention to?
But I can tell you it's my personal belief that God is a whole lot more forgiving than we are and that we have to come to grips with ourselves and be the kind of people that we have to become what is good in our lives.
At the time, I'll give you a thumbnail background here to my question.
At the time, I worked right next to the research lab.
And someone somewhere offered a huge reward for anyone who could prove the existence of a soul.
And there was much research done around the world, and there was finally a book published.
And of course, no one proved anything.
But it was very interesting.
It was something that I would like to have heard more about, but never did.
But my question in that respect is, wouldn't you I didn't understand you to say that when you were out of your body, that you were actually a soul or that you were just a conscious entity of some sort.
I got the sense that he believed me totally and completely immediately.
And I have no way of knowing why he believed me, other than, like I said, I assumed that his being in touch with life and death every day, I assumed that this was a common occurrence and would later find out on no contraire.
Folks, if you want to see this, this is astounding to see.
Go to my website, artbell.com.
Under program, click on tonight's guest info, and then click on angiogram image.
And first of all, Pam, the first comment I would have is, how could a blood vessel that relatively thin produce something that big without killing you first?
Well, if I manage to get your doctor on the air and I ask him, what can you tell me about her ability to describe what went on during the operation in the period of time when she had absolutely no brain waves whatsoever?
How can you rationalize, how have you rationalized that?
I mean, the brain is one thing, and many people feel the soul or the spirit, they may be separate or the same, are altogether something else, and maybe they cannot know about that or will not know about that.
Who knows?
But I know they are making progress, so maybe they can be answered.
I've got a couple questions here for you, Pam, and they're real quick.
I'll go ahead and ask them and then hang up and listen.
That's okay.
You said that you weren't afraid before you went in the operation.
You weren't afraid to die, but what you were afraid of was leaving your children behind?
Yes.
When you were on the other side, did you have any feelings of remorse or sadness or anything like that that you were leaving your children behind at that time?
You've filled many nights with great entertainment.
And I just want to say I've had a lot of strange experiences in my life.
And I've been diagnosed as schizophrenic.
But right now I'm on antidepressants.
And I've kind of experienced everything you've talked about, Pam.
And a couple months' time, I had a lot of sleep deprivation, and I felt like remote viewers were communicating with me and following me around.
And I about lost my mind, but I didn't.
And I'm pretty much normal now.
I'm on antidepressants.
And I feel the next level that you were going to go to after, you know, you were saying there was more to be seen is that you kind of said it yourself when you said yourselves sensed everything.
You sensed everything.
Remember that?
I feel like pretty much that we will find ourselves alone in the darkness and we will be God and then create our own universe.
This whole thing, this entire program has been really comforting to do it with you.
Pam, and I have a feeling a lot of other people will feel the same way.
When your book comes out, you know, most people won't come on the air with this sort of thing until they actually are in the business of promoting their book.
So when your book does come out, you be really sure and call me, get a hold of me, and I will have you back on the air.