Art Bell - 20020201_Art-Bell-SIT-Pam-Reynolds-Amazing-NDE
Aired: 2002-02-01
Duration: 02:38:56


=== Good Evening, Coast to Coast (06:13) ===

[00:00:12]  Welcome to Art Bell somewhere in time.
[00:00:15]  Tonight featuring Coast to Coast A.M. from February 1st, 2002.
[00:00:19]  From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I vid you all.
[00:00:22]  Good evening, good afternoon, good morning, wherever you may be in all 24 time zones circling the globe.
[00:00:28]  I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
[00:00:33]  Well, this is interesting.
[00:00:34]  For the first time in my recent memory, the newscasts are not leading with war news.
[00:00:39]  It's actually number three before you get to war news.
[00:00:43]  The big news is the president's administration is abandoning an eight-year $1.5 billion program to produce highly fuel-efficient cars in favor of a government-industry push to develop vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells.
[00:01:01]  Energy Secretary Professor Abraham planned to announce details of the new program dubbed Freedom Car.
[00:01:10]  So I told you at the beginning of the program yesterday that I had a lot of questions about energy and hydrogen specifically.
[00:01:18]  And while I had a lot of fun with the program last night, I didn't get any of those questions answered.
[00:01:23]  So we will try again soon.
[00:01:26]  Same questions.
[00:01:30]  And we'll find a guest who can answer them.
[00:01:33]  Now, coming up in a moment, as you know or may not know, the internet has been full of it.
[00:01:40]  The cattle mutilations have begun in real earnest in Montana.
[00:01:46]  Oh my, oh my, what's going on in Montana?
[00:01:49]  And Dr. Kelleher, Columb Kelleher, will tell us about it in a moment.
[00:01:53]  Dr. Kelleher, a staff member of the National Institute of Discovery Science, is a research scientist and deputy administrator, where his responsibilities include overseeing NIDS research projects.
[00:02:04]  Dr. Kelleher received his B.S. in biochemistry from the University of College, Dublin, as you will note with his accent and a PhD in biochemistry from the University of Dublin, Trinity College.
[00:02:18]  Until 1996, Dr. Kelleher was an instructor at the National Jewish Center for Immunology, Denver, where his research projects included molecular biology of Epsom-Barr virus infection of human B and T cells,
[00:02:34]  expression of human androgynous retrovirus-like transponson sequences, and probably messing that up in human immune cells, HIV infection of human thymocytes, thymocytes, I guess it is, an expression of human nerve growth factor receptors on human B cells.
[00:02:55]  Good Lord.
[00:02:56]  He's been a research associate at the Molecular Genetics Lab, Terry Fox Laboratory, British Columbia Cancer Agency, Vancouver, B.C., served as post-doctorate fellow of the Ontario Cancer Institute, Toronto, was a recipient of a National Science and Engineering Research Council Canada Award in Biochemistry in 1985 and a W.P. Craven Memorial Award in Medical Sciences in 1986.
[00:03:24]  Dr. Keller has co-authored, authored actually and co-authored 38 peer-reviewed publications in molecular immunology, virology, and biochemistry.
[00:03:34]  He's also published numerous articles for the layperson in magazines like Omni.
[00:03:40]  And he knows all about what's going on or what's been going on in Montana coming up in a moment.
[00:03:47]  Now from Nids, right across the hump from Pahrump in Las Vegas.
[00:04:13]  Here is Dr. Kelleher.
[00:04:14]  Dr. Kelleher, welcome to the program.
[00:04:17]  Good evening, Art.
[00:04:18]  How are you doing?
[00:04:18]  I'm doing fine.
[00:04:20]  What the hell is going on in Montana and when did it begin?
[00:04:23]  Well, it seems like it's been very, very busy up there.
[00:04:28]  We actually started getting calls at the end of June from law enforcement and people and ranchers up there, right at the end of June.
[00:04:37]  And sporadically, over the last six months, we've had eight to nine different reports of animal mutilations.
[00:04:44]  But recently, I just came across this newspaper article in which they're talking about over a dozen reports of mutilations in a small triangle northwest of Great Falls, Montana.
[00:05:00]  So a fairly specific area, Column?
[00:05:02]  Yes, there are three towns actually that seem to be the epicenter, and one of them is called Dupuer.
[00:05:10]  There's a second one called Valier and the third one called Conrad.
[00:05:14]  They form a triangle and they're all about 80 miles to 100 miles northwest of Great Falls, Montana.
[00:05:21]  Now you probably remember we had talked before on the show about probably 50 to 70 mutilations in the 70s that were centered around Great Falls, Montana.
[00:05:34]  Maelstrom Air Force Base, a 40-mile radius around there.
[00:05:37]  Well, the epicenter of this mutilation wave seems to be about 80 miles northwest of where the main action was happening in the 1970s.
[00:05:48]  And they all seem to have the same MO.
[00:05:51]  In other words, most of the animals that we've heard about have their tissue and the hide from the jaw has been stripped.
[00:06:01]  One of the eyes, one of the ears is gone, usually the genitals on the rear end.
[00:06:05]  So it's a standard MO.
[00:06:08]  And one of the interesting parts of the first mutilation that happened was it also happened to be the freshest.

=== Oxendole: A Forensic Mystery (15:41) ===

[00:06:16]  And the law enforcement people were very, very cooperative with us.
[00:06:21]  Who usually calls these in?
[00:06:23]  Is it the rancher who owns the cattle usually?
[00:06:26]  Usually the rancher will either call us or call local law enforcement, and then law enforcement will call us.
[00:06:33]  So obviously we like to get the quickest way of getting a veterinarian up there.
[00:06:39]  But in this particular case, it was the law enforcement people who had already seen the animal who had called us.
[00:06:46]  And this was one at the end of June in Dupuer, Montana.
[00:06:50]  So there was a real problem getting a veterinarian to the scene, and we knew from the description of the investigators that this looked like a really good case.
[00:07:01]  So we persuaded the law enforcement people to saw the head off the animal on the spot because there was a bright fluorescent greenish-colored piece of tissue underneath the jaw of the animal that sounded really interesting to us.
[00:07:18]  Uh-huh.
[00:07:19]  Well, that couldn't have been easy.
[00:07:21]  G officer, would you mind sawing the head off for us?
[00:07:24]  That must have taken some sweet talk.
[00:07:27]  Well, I was really surprised because they just leapt to the whole idea, and they had the head off that animal really fast.
[00:07:37]  Really?
[00:07:38]  Yeah.
[00:07:38]  Okay.
[00:07:39]  Not only that, but I believe, and this is only anecdotal, but I believe that one of the police officers, I asked them to freeze it pretty quickly.
[00:07:48]  Right.
[00:07:48]  And one of them actually took it home and froze it in a freezer at home so that the decomposition process would stop.
[00:07:56]  Boy, all right for those guys.
[00:07:58]  Well, that's what I thought, too.
[00:07:59]  I mean, this was way beyond the Call of Duty.
[00:08:02]  You bet.
[00:08:03]  And so what did they do?
[00:08:04]  Did they send it to you or hold it?
[00:08:06]  Well, yeah, they waited for a few days until the whole head and the inside of the head had froze, and then they FedExed it to us.
[00:08:15]  So we got this 40-pound cow's head by FedEx the following morning.
[00:08:21]  Where is the FedEx going when he was carrying it?
[00:08:24]  Well, it was packed on ice, and it was really, really well packed, so there was no odor.
[00:08:31]  There was nothing unusual.
[00:08:35]  Okay, so you get cow's head.
[00:08:37]  We got cow's head in the mail, and we immediately stuck it into, we've got a minus 85-degree freezer here that we use for that kind of thing so that we can really make sure that decomposition stops because the whole essence of this game is to get in before decomposition happens.
[00:08:56]  Fresh meat.
[00:08:58]  Fresh meat if possible.
[00:09:00]  So the first thing we did was we contacted a forensic scientist from out of town.
[00:09:08]  He's actually from Texas.
[00:09:10]  We did a lot of consultation with him and it ended up that he flew into town.
[00:09:15]  And we spent 10 to 12 hours in a laboratory we have here going through that animal's head, sampling the animal.
[00:09:26]  Once it had begun to thaw at this stage, and then we sampled it.
[00:09:31]  We just published a report on our website detailing what we found in that animal.
[00:09:36]  And I think it's probably a first in animal mutilation for several reasons in animal mutilation research.
[00:09:44]  But it is one of over a dozen cases that have happened.
[00:09:49]  I understand there's been many more.
[00:09:50]  Now, can you give us a brief overview of what's in that article?
[00:09:54]  What did you find?
[00:09:56]  Very briefly, we did several different things that were new in this particular case because we had been doing a lot of searching around to see what the best possible way of getting to the heart of this whole mystery was.
[00:10:14]  So we decided to adopt a much more forensic approach.
[00:10:20]  So the first thing we did was we ran a second animal in parallel with this first mutilated animal as a sham or control.
[00:10:27]  We got an animal from a slaughterhouse up in Utah and stuck it out there in the elements, protected it from predators, scavengers, left it to decompose for four days as a sham or control.
[00:10:39]  So then we ran both animals in this analysis in parallel.
[00:10:45]  And we sampled, the first thing we sampled was the eye fluid from this animal, which the forensic people told us was the best possible snapshot of what was going on in the animal.
[00:10:59]  Then we actually went into the maggot mass of the animal and we started analyzing that and looking at ways to get the maximum amount of information from the maggot mass.
[00:11:15]  So we were conducting all of this stuff was not the business as usual bacteriology, virology, which has been done in the past and which tends to rule out stuff.
[00:11:26]  We were trying to do some kind of a subtraction between the control animal and the mutilated animal.
[00:11:33]  Of course.
[00:11:34]  subtract to see if there are any molecules in the mutilated animals that were not in the control animal.
[00:11:41]  So we used the greenish colored tissue under the jaw and we used the eye fluid for this purpose.
[00:11:48]  And so what we did was we sent the eye fluid and the greenish colored tissue to two separate labs for a whole set of procedures that essentially was a subtraction analysis.
[00:12:02]  And the upshot of this whole thing was that we found a compound called oxendole.
[00:12:07]  What is it again, please?
[00:12:09]  Oxendole in the animal that was mutilated from Montana.
[00:12:15]  Oxendole?
[00:12:16]  Oxendole, yeah.
[00:12:17]  That was not present in the control animal.
[00:12:20]  What is oxendol?
[00:12:21]  Oxendole, surprisingly, is an experimental drug that has been used experimentally as a sedative in mammals.
[00:12:33]  It is not licensed by the FDA in this country.
[00:12:36]  Really?
[00:12:36]  And it is an experimental drug.
[00:12:39]  Now, it is also found at extremely low levels in biological tissues, but not at the kind of levels we're talking about.
[00:12:48]  We found between 200 and 500 times the normal levels of oxendole in this animal.
[00:12:56]  So we're speculating, you know, or we're thinking that maybe oxendol was used to knock this animal down.
[00:13:05]  Good guess.
[00:13:08]  Question.
[00:13:09]  I'm sorry.
[00:13:09]  Question.
[00:13:10]  Who would have access?
[00:13:12]  I'm sure you're asking these questions.
[00:13:14]  What kind of people would have access to an experimental drug like oxendol?
[00:13:19]  Well, interestingly, most of the experimentation on oxendole and the physiology, the pharmacology of oxendol has happened in Europe.
[00:13:28]  It is used here sporadically.
[00:13:33]  You have to be a recognized institution.
[00:13:35]  In other words, a research institution, university department, government laboratory, or any combination of the above.
[00:13:42]  Even a veterinary facility could order oxendole as a drug.
[00:13:48]  But it's not used by veterinarians.
[00:13:51]  Usually ketamine or some other drug will knock down an animal.
[00:13:56]  That's the standard stuff that's used.
[00:13:58]  Oxendole is not used usually by veterinarians to knock down animals.
[00:14:04]  So therefore, we think that investigating the sources and the distribution of this compound, especially in Montana, might be fruitful.
[00:14:15]  Here, here.
[00:14:16]  Oh, fascinating.
[00:14:17]  Ooh, good work.
[00:14:18]  Yeah, we think this new approach that we've adopted for this animal, if we can follow through with several other animals and we can find similar things, I think we could be on to something.
[00:14:31]  Any other anomalous differences?
[00:14:34]  Well, there's another compound that we're still investigating, compound called xylene.
[00:14:39]  Xylene.
[00:14:40]  And we're not sure if we did not find it in the control animal, and we're trying to figure out whether or not it really should be in the mutilated animal.
[00:14:51]  Okay, again, what is xylene?
[00:14:53]  Well, xylene is used, it has many uses.
[00:14:57]  It has many industrial uses.
[00:14:59]  But one of the uses that it is routinely used for in phlebotomy, drawing blood samples, that kind of thing, is for inflaming the surface of the skin prior to either injecting something in.
[00:15:13]  In other words, it raises veins from the skin so that you can either take blood samples or you can inject something in.
[00:15:22]  That's one of the uses for xylene.
[00:15:23]  Now there are multiple other uses.
[00:15:26]  And we're still following that up.
[00:15:28]  We're a lot more sure of the oxendole than we are of the xylene.
[00:15:33]  But we think that this subtraction analysis procedure that we've done, which we think is the first time it's been done in animal mutilation research, we think this is the way to go for animals in the future.
[00:15:51]  Does this further suggest to you the possibility of some sort of government something?
[00:16:05]  Not necessarily, but certainly we're not going to rule that out because we think that there's been multiple indirect clues over the last we've been doing this kind of research for about five years now, and I think we're getting better as time goes on at asking the relevant questions.
[00:16:27]  But in talking with law enforcement people from all around the country and in some of the stuff that we've found, like this oxendole, for example, there does seem to be some kind of possible human involvement.
[00:16:42]  Now, who that is, we have no idea.
[00:16:46]  Has it occurred to you you might be getting too close?
[00:16:50]  In other words, if there is something really serious behind this, whatever it is, and we can imagine all kinds of things, once you begin pinning it down the way you just did tonight, I doubt there's a whole lot of oxendol in Montana.
[00:17:03]  It may not be a hard trek to figure out to get a whole lot closer to the people, persons, whatever is doing this.
[00:17:16]  So you're being careful, right?
[00:17:18]  We are being careful.
[00:17:19]  We've got actually retired law enforcement checking into that whole thing right now in Montana.
[00:17:27]  But Montana is not the only locus of the animal mutilation phenomenon.
[00:17:34]  We've had a couple of reports from northern Utah around the Logan area.
[00:17:38]  We've had two recent reports from Northern California.
[00:17:42]  We've had a report from Oregon about just over four months ago.
[00:17:47]  So there's a real concentration happening in a very small area in Montana, but we don't think it's the only place.
[00:17:56]  What about footprints, human leave-ins of whatever variety might have been found in the area of these?
[00:18:04]  There's really been nothing.
[00:18:06]  There's been no tracks, no vehicle tracks, no footprints.
[00:18:09]  And a lot of these animals in Montana were found in areas where there should have been footprints, really easily visible.
[00:18:18]  In other words, the ground was wet or soggy.
[00:18:22]  And that's not unusual for animal mutilations.
[00:18:26]  Is it true that predators will not eat or consume the carcasses of animals that have been mutilated in this manner?
[00:18:36]  That's a 50-50 situation.
[00:18:38]  We have investigated cases where predators will go for, or scavengers will go for a mutilated animal, and then we've had other cases where they won't touch it.
[00:18:48]  I know a lot of the reports that came out of Montana, the law enforcement people have said that time and again in Montana that predator scavengers will not touch these animals.
[00:18:59]  And we've seen the same thing.
[00:19:01]  We've seen it in Utah.
[00:19:02]  We've seen it elsewhere where predator scavengers will not touch a certain percentage of the animals.
[00:19:09]  But we've investigated cases in New Mexico where it's been obvious that predator damage has happened subsequent to mutilation.
[00:19:16]  All right.
[00:19:17]  Column, hold it right there.
[00:19:19]  Oxendol, huh?
[00:19:21]  Xylene.
[00:19:23]  But Oxendol, for sure.
[00:19:24]  An experimental drug?
[00:19:27]  No footsteps, no humans.
[00:19:29]  Nobody's ever been arrested.
[00:19:34]  I don't know.
[00:19:35]  This is really strange stuff, isn't it?
[00:19:38]  But then again, that's what we deal with here.
[00:19:40]  From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
[00:19:42]  Column Culliher is here.
[00:19:43]  Next hour, Richard C. Hoagland.
[00:19:46]  And boy, does he have a big announcement?
[00:19:48]  This is Premier Networks.
[00:19:49]  That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
[00:19:55]  You know, I love to love you and above you than no other.
[00:20:26]  in time.
[00:20:27]  Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 1st, 2002.
[00:20:31]  Well, you're hearing big breaking news tonight.
[00:20:34]  This is the first hard science news that we've had, first hard lead that we've ever had ever in animal mutilations.
[00:20:42]  The use of an experimental drug called Oxendall.
[00:20:45]  That's liable to lead somewhere.
[00:20:47]  My guest is Column Culliher, who is the administrator of NIDS.
[00:20:57]  And NIDS is an organization that, if you don't know about it, funded by Robert Bigelow, an amazing man himself, that has, you know, it has the resources to go and do cunts of things you're hearing about tonight, find out what really is going on with something.
[00:21:15]  In this case, animal mutilations, and of course, they do a lot more.
[00:21:18]  We'll get right back to it.
[00:21:20]  It may not mean anything or have any connection at all,

=== Unusual White Lights Hovering (02:18) ===

[00:21:41]  but the Gazette, the Billings Gazette, is running a story today saying, unusual white lights were spotted hovering over the west end of Billings Saturday at about 6 p.m.
[00:21:51]  A Billings woman who asked that her name not be printed, understand that, and her husband were in their pickup truckle and they spotted a lighted half-spherical object hovering about a thousand feet above an area near 36th Street West.
[00:22:06]  The object had one flashing light for about four minutes.
[00:22:10]  My husband knows airplanes.
[00:22:11]  She said those aren't any airplane lights, said he.
[00:22:15]  And as soon as he did, it took off within two seconds.
[00:22:18]  We couldn't see it.
[00:22:19]  It was that fast.
[00:22:20]  Now, another Billings man who spends the majority of his evenings riding a bicycle in the downtown area said he also saw the object, thought it was some sort of jet or something.
[00:22:30]  And these are pretty far apart geographically in Montana, so there may be no relationship, but it is interesting.
[00:22:38]  Once again, Column Culliher.
[00:22:40]  So, Colum, is that that's pretty much the net result?
[00:22:44]  It's a big one of the investigation you've done on in this particular case.
[00:22:50]  There have been, what, about 14 cows, you say?
[00:22:53]  There have been 14 cows, kind of an assortment of cows, steers, mostly cows in Montana.
[00:23:03]  This was really the only relatively fresh one.
[00:23:07]  A lot of the other ones were sort of five days, seven days old.
[00:23:11]  Some of the other cases, we talked to the owners who did not want any publicity, actually.
[00:23:16]  One of the owners of one of these animals is a pretty well-known politician up in Montana.
[00:23:21]  Oh.
[00:23:22]  And he was telling me on the telephone that he had the cattle inspector and he had a variety of people out very, very quickly when he saw the state of his animal because it was pretty obviously foul play in his mind.

=== Ritualistic Mutilations (15:47) ===

[00:23:41]  He had the cattle inspector out very quickly and they all started speculating about what might have happened.
[00:23:46]  And one of the guys, and I think it was the cattle inspector, decided that it might have been lightning.
[00:23:53]  Lightning!
[00:23:53]  Lightning!
[00:23:54]  Lightning.
[00:23:55]  And, of course, nobody else took it seriously, but then this politician who did not want his name associated with cattle mutilations, he has probably said, yes, lightning.
[00:24:07]  Yeah, that's exactly what he said.
[00:24:08]  He said, okay, I'll buy that.
[00:24:10]  I see.
[00:24:11]  And he decided to go with it because he did not want the adverse publicity that goes along with the animal mutilation phenomenon.
[00:24:20]  That particular adverse publicity is something that we're fighting all the time.
[00:24:25]  Right.
[00:24:25]  Okay.
[00:24:26]  Well, listen, we know pretty much what was done, you know, the coring and all the rest of it.
[00:24:31]  Was this done with surgical precision?
[00:24:35]  This looked part of the rear of the animal was removed, and it did look, according to the investigators, it looked really sharp.
[00:24:43]  The instruments looked really sharp.
[00:24:45]  We focused on the head because it was the only, it was, to us, it contained most of the evidence.
[00:24:52]  In other words, it contained a possible injection point around the neck of the animal just below the jawbone, although we did not see, or the investigators did not see, an actual puncture in the jugular.
[00:25:10]  But that greenish-colored tissue right under the jaws to us suggested the addition of some kind of compound.
[00:25:18]  So we focused on that.
[00:25:19]  We didn't focus too much on the rear end of the animal because we've spent a lot of time in the past using veterinary pathology techniques to distinguish between sharp instruments and predator scavengers.
[00:25:33]  And we've actually published a kind of a baseline study on our website saying, or actually showing the pictures in graphic detail the differences between what tearing and predator scavenger activity on tissue looks like compared to sharp instruments.
[00:25:54]  There really is a big difference under low power microscope and using various staining techniques.
[00:26:01]  Column, let me ask you this.
[00:26:03]  Based on what happens to these animals, based on, and there is a great similarity in the way the mutilations seem to be done and the parts that are taken and all the rest of it, can anybody go out on a limb like you and do any supposition, any speculation at all on based on what's taken, would there be any motives suggested?
[00:26:30]  Well, there's several parts to this, including what's taken from an animal, but also there's a definite undercurrent of ritual, we think, in a lot of these animal mutilation cases.
[00:26:46]  Sometimes the animals are very carefully laid out.
[00:26:51]  I'll give you one example.
[00:26:54]  I mentioned that there were two relatively recent cases from California, Northern California.
[00:27:00]  One of those animals had its left eye cord out, and the eyeball in pristine condition was laid on the grass facing the animal that had been mutilated.
[00:27:13]  And at the same time, most of the inner organs of the animal were completely missing.
[00:27:19]  Now we've come across a similar case actually in Utah where a young calf was essentially denuded of internal organs and perfectly laid out on the grass with not a drop of blood.
[00:27:34]  And this was exactly the same as the case in Northern California where the animal was obviously really fresh.
[00:27:43]  The eyeball was still intact, perfectly fresh, not touched by scavengers, predators, and placed very carefully facing the animal.
[00:27:54]  You know, there's obviously an element of ritual an element of symbolism.
[00:27:59]  You know, you can really start going into the semiotics, the symbolism behind all of this.
[00:28:07]  And we think that's a feature of the mutilation phenomenon, the display element, that there is a message in the display as well as the actual tissues that are taken.
[00:28:19]  A ritual.
[00:28:20]  all right now back to the thing that really bothers me uh... what is law enforcement say about the lack of any human artifact you know as in footprint or activity or i mean throughout the history of uh... these mutilations uh... nobody's ever been caught and prosecuted far as i know right That's correct.
[00:28:39]  And we've talked to FBI agents, we've talked to law enforcement people, and they all say that it's just really unusual to go 30 years, you know, multiple, multiple cases, hundreds, possibly even thousands of animals have gone down and mutilated over the last 30 years, and not a single person has been caught or charged.
[00:29:02]  They've investigated all of the low-level cults, you know, the chickens and goats kind of people in the locales.
[00:29:11]  But it's a very, very different ballgame to go into a pasture and to tackle a 2,000-pound bull, of which there have been many mutilated.
[00:29:22]  It just requires a completely different level of expertise.
[00:29:26]  And we are talking about surgical expertise, too.
[00:29:29]  One of the cases that we're currently working with came from near Logan, Utah.
[00:29:35]  And I talked to the veterinarian who'd done the autopsy of the animal in the field.
[00:29:40]  He said it was a standard of surgical procedure that he said he would be very, very difficult to mimic.
[00:29:49]  In other words, it was an extraordinarily carefully done mutilation involving intricate surgical technique that, you know, he really marveled at how good the technique was.
[00:30:04]  This is driving me nuts.
[00:30:06]  And we definitely think there's a number of clues that are pointing to some kind of human involvement.
[00:30:17]  We're not saying that it's definitely not paranormal or it's definitely not extraterrestrial.
[00:30:26]  We're not ruling anything out, but we're suggesting that there may be some human involvement in some cases.
[00:30:36]  I don't even know whether this is relevant or not, but I used to interview a great man, Father Malachi Martin, in New York.
[00:30:43]  He was an exorcist Catholic priest, and he was talking about the influence of evil and the amount of evil being practiced across the United States.
[00:30:54]  And he said that so many people are utterly unaware of the amount of evil being practiced, even organized evil.
[00:31:04]  And he said it was on an increase that you just simply would not believe with exorcisms in the New York area being up 800%, but all the way across the country.
[00:31:15]  And you've talked about ritual, and I don't know, it just seems like there might be something there.
[00:31:20]  Well, it's an interesting thought because we have been really struck by the parallels in some of these cases of the obvious symbolism, the obvious ritual.
[00:31:31]  And quite frankly, we're also taken with the kinds of skill that's been used on these animals, the surgical skill, and also the fact that nobody's been ever caught.
[00:31:45]  This surgical skill, is it pretty much always the case, the case in 80%, half?
[00:31:56]  Of the cases we've investigated, I would say it's probably in the 30% range.
[00:32:02]  30%.
[00:32:03]  Where it's obvious surgical skill.
[00:32:06]  But even the act of cutting out a large segment of a cow hide, for example, and not leaving any blood on the tissue that's left is not easy to do.
[00:32:21]  Actually, we went through the procedure only in the last couple of months of stripping, removing the hide from the head of the animal that we received from Montana.
[00:32:31]  And literally, that was a very painstaking operation that took probably close to three hours.
[00:32:39]  And this was an expert in forensics.
[00:32:42]  Granted, he hadn't done too much on cattle, but he was very used to wielding sharp knives and scalpels.
[00:32:49]  And it took him three hours just to strip the hide off the head of an animal.
[00:32:54]  Whereas in the field, you get large amounts of hide stripped off these animals with absolutely no incisions into the tissue.
[00:33:03]  So it's very, very skillful.
[00:33:06]  And also, the perpetrators are obviously very highly mobile because we know of mutilations that have happened in Florida.
[00:33:14]  We know they've happened in Oregon, in Washington State.
[00:33:18]  So they're happening all across the country.
[00:33:20]  Somebody fast bless me.
[00:33:22]  We need cow cams.
[00:33:23]  Well, kind of hard to get cameras on cows and just keep them there.
[00:33:30]  But you know what?
[00:33:31]  I have this horrid little strange feeling that if you did manage to get a cow cam on a cow that actually got mutilated, you'd get a result like you got up on the ranch between the poles.
[00:33:43]  Yeah.
[00:33:44]  Well, that's definitely one of those situations where, you know, you put a camera on a cow.
[00:33:53]  We actually had a whole herd of cows that were being monitored 724 for a couple of years.
[00:34:01]  Right.
[00:34:01]  And we never caught anything on the camera except the kinds of weird stuff that you've just alluded to, which is impossible to explain or it's certainly difficult to explain using normal rational explanations.
[00:34:16]  Well, that's the reason why you reach out toward the paranormal to try and explain this because you're left almost with nothing else when you look at motive, except perhaps the ritual aspect that you point to.
[00:34:29]  Yeah, there's the ritual aspect and then there's the small number of mutilated animals who have obvious puncture marks in the jugular.
[00:34:42]  You know, there's the law enforcement officers up in Montana who had worked a lot of the Great Falls cases where the Great Falls, Montana cases, were telling us small numbers of animals with these really obvious punctures in the jugular veins of the animal.
[00:34:59]  At the same time, we had reported on a case from Montana where the animal was rolled over during an examination of a mutilated animal in Montana.
[00:35:11]  And underneath the animal, there was a six-inch hypodermic needle.
[00:35:17]  That was an obvious piece of hardware.
[00:35:21]  There was nothing paranormal about that needle.
[00:35:24]  Indeed not.
[00:35:26]  I take it that nobody got any residue or tested the needle.
[00:35:30]  The needle was tested for anything unusual, and nothing unusual was found.
[00:35:35]  But it was a standard.
[00:35:37]  Well, that in itself is kind of unusual, isn't it?
[00:35:40]  Yeah, well, it did have blood in it, and it didn't have anything unusual beyond the usual blood, and it was lying directly under a mutilated animal.
[00:35:53]  It was the kind of large gauge needle that you would use if you were going to empty an animal or at least take a lot of blood from an animal.
[00:36:05]  But that's the kind of indirect evidence I've been talking about.
[00:36:10]  We've talked a lot to law enforcement people who insist around the country during the 70s and lately even, who insist that there are helicopters associated with animal mutilation.
[00:36:23]  I'm aware.
[00:36:25]  This lead on Oxendahl, you say it's being followed.
[00:36:30]  I don't know how much you can talk about it, but I would.
[00:36:33]  Let me ask this.
[00:36:34]  How anxious would you say law enforcement is in Montana and the other areas where these things have occurred to get to the bottom of it?
[00:36:45]  Well, we are really fortunate to be working with several very motivated police officers up there in Montana.
[00:36:53]  And it's kind of like a throwback to some of the law enforcement officers who were working these cases in the 70s and who got very, very frustrated because they never solved them.
[00:37:06]  They have passed some of their expertise on to this new generation up in northwest Montana.
[00:37:13]  And they're kind of carrying on the investigations.
[00:37:17]  But they're highly motivated.
[00:37:18]  I should say that the majority of law enforcement people that we know of are less than motivated to solve these crimes because they're just too weird.
[00:37:30]  So only a subset of the law enforcement people that we know of are really motivated to go after this.
[00:37:35]  And we're really fortunate that we're working with these people.
[00:37:38]  You can say the same thing in the veterinarian profession.
[00:37:42]  Only a subset of veterinarians will bother to actually go out and do an necropsy or autopsy on an animal.
[00:37:50]  Too weird again?
[00:37:51]  The vast majority of veterinarians do not want to know about animal mutilations because it's too weird.
[00:37:57]  It impacts their careers adversely.
[00:38:00]  It gives them a reputation in the community that they do not want to deal with.
[00:38:04]  So they prefer to stay away.
[00:38:06]  And again, it's taken a lot of time for us in terms of networking to start connecting with these small number of veterinarians and small number of law enforcement people.
[00:38:15]  Again, good work.
[00:38:16]  Listen, I know that you have a hotline at NIDS for reporting all kinds of things like this and other inexplicable things that you actually do have the power, if you decide the case warrants it, to investigate on the spot with the proper scientific personnel.
[00:38:37]  What number is that?
[00:38:38]  It's area code 702-798-1700.
[00:38:44]  And we do have people staffing the 24-hour hotline.
[00:38:52]  If you call when nobody is there, just leave a message and an investigator will get back to you.
[00:38:57]  We also have a website, which is www.nidsci, n-i-d-s-c-i.org, where you can electronically report an animal mutilation.
[00:39:08]  Just go to the website and pull up the form, and you can just fill out all the details electronically.

=== Guaranteed Confidentiality (01:36) ===

[00:39:13]  We guarantee absolute confidentiality of all ranchers and police officers and veterinarians who work with us because we know that reputations can sour pretty easily if their names are publicized.
[00:39:27]  And if police officers want to publicize their names independently of us, that's fine.
[00:39:33]  But we do not add their names.
[00:39:35]  Yep, that's a good policy, and I'm sure in long haul it absolutely pays off.
[00:39:41]  Yeah, it is paying off.
[00:39:43]  It's been five years now.
[00:39:45]  We've been working this problem, and we're beginning to see a level of cooperation that we haven't seen, say, maybe a year or two ago.
[00:39:54]  Well, listen, my friend, thanks for the breaking news, the hard news.
[00:39:58]  This is great stuff.
[00:39:59]  The first real thing we've ever gotten on any of this.
[00:40:02]  Thank you so much, Column.
[00:40:04]  Well, you're very welcome.
[00:40:05]  We're hoping to follow it up with more animals.
[00:40:07]  All right, good enough.
[00:40:09]  Thank you, and good night.
[00:40:10]  Good night, Art.
[00:40:11]  Talk to you again soon.
[00:40:12]  Column Collaher of NIDS.
[00:40:14]  The hotline number again.
[00:40:15]  If you have something you'd like to report, you might want to just sort of put this on a piece of paper and plaster it on your fridge or near your phone or something.
[00:40:23]  The NIDS hotline is area code 702-798-1700.
[00:40:30]  702-798-1700.

=== Pam Reynolds: Coming Up (02:54) ===

[00:40:34]  And they do have the resources to do what really has to be done.
[00:40:38]  From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
[00:40:40]  The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
[00:40:45]  More Somewhere in Time coming up.
[00:41:14]  AdWords presents Art Belt Somewhere in Time.
[00:41:18]  Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from the 1st of February, 2002.
[00:41:22]  There are some rides you might not wish to take, like the one Pam Reynolds took.
[00:41:28]  Pam Reynolds is coming up in a moment.
[00:41:30]  She's a practicing musician, wife, and mother of three, and a member of a very prominent music publishing family.
[00:41:37]  In 1991, she underwent one of the most fantastic surgical procedures ever performed.
[00:41:44]  Dr. Robert F. Spetzler, director of the Barrow Institute for Neurology in Phoenix, Arizona, and his team of daring surgeons clipped an aneurysm in her brain by a process known as, in quotes, stand still.
[00:42:03]  Her body was cooled to 58 degrees Fahrenheit, her heart stopped, most of her blood drained from her body.
[00:42:08]  In short, Pam Reynolds was dead.
[00:42:13]  While in this state, she encountered one of the most remarkable near-death experiences ever documented, or was it a death experience, actually.
[00:42:22]  Ten years later, hers remains the most scientifically documented case on record.
[00:42:27]  48 Hours did a story on her.
[00:42:30]  You may have seen that.
[00:42:32]  48 Hours, though, an in-depth magazine show would never in the world have the sort of time that we have to cover a story of this magnitude.
[00:42:42]  So coming up, that's exactly what we'll do.
[00:42:44]  And now, here is Pam Reynolds.
[00:43:07]  Hi, Pam.
[00:43:08]  Hi, Art.
[00:43:11]  Are you actually in Atlanta, Georgia?

=== Discovery Of The Aneurysm (15:49) ===

[00:43:13]  Yes, I am.
[00:43:14]  You're in Atlanta.
[00:43:14]  Well, I can hear the Atlanta in you.
[00:43:18]  Can't take the country out of the girl.
[00:43:20]  Yeah, you've got a little bit of a cold, you told me.
[00:43:23]  Yeah, a little bit.
[00:43:25]  Well, sorry to hear that.
[00:43:26]  But we'll be okay.
[00:43:27]  We'll get through it.
[00:43:28]  Well, after what you've been through.
[00:43:30]  Really, it's a little thing.
[00:43:32]  Yeah.
[00:43:34]  I don't even know where to begin here.
[00:43:37]  I guess it would be appropriate to ask you how you discovered that you had an aneurysm in your brain.
[00:43:46]  Well, Art, I was very lucky.
[00:43:48]  Most people don't.
[00:43:49]  They go about their lives.
[00:43:51]  And they just die.
[00:43:53]  Exactly.
[00:43:54]  It just explodes on them.
[00:43:55]  An aneurysm, we should tell people who might not know, is what is an aneurysm?
[00:44:01]  Well, it's a ballooning of the vein or artery where the wall of the artery becomes very thin, like the wall on a tire.
[00:44:09]  And it'll bubble out and eventually explode, of course, flooding the vital organ with blood, and that's certain death.
[00:44:17]  And you virtually die instantly, almost, I think.
[00:44:20]  Exactly.
[00:44:21]  So somehow, in your case, they discovered you had this.
[00:44:25]  How?
[00:44:26]  Well, I had excruciating headaches for about 10 years and was first diagnosed with migraine syndrome.
[00:44:33]  10 years.
[00:44:34]  10 years.
[00:44:35]  Oh, my God.
[00:44:36]  And finally, I began to lose the ability to speak and comprehend language, which indicates immediately something's wrong with the brain.
[00:44:44]  My physician had an angiogram ordered, and lo and behold, on that very same day, we found it.
[00:44:53]  How did he break that news to you?
[00:44:56]  I mean, telling somebody they've got an aneurysm in their brain cannot be an easy chore for any doctor.
[00:45:01]  No, especially this one.
[00:45:02]  This was my physician that I grew up with.
[00:45:06]  Not only was mine an aneurysm, but mine was a giant basilar tip aneurysm, which is in the artery, the main artery in the brain.
[00:45:14]  Oh, brother.
[00:45:15]  Uh-huh.
[00:45:16]  So it would be a big bang.
[00:45:18]  Oh, yeah.
[00:45:19]  So, I mean, really, you sat down.
[00:45:23]  No doubt he did want an MRI or something?
[00:45:25]  Well, no, back then MRIs were not the thing.
[00:45:29]  We had a CAT scan.
[00:45:30]  A CAT scan, okay.
[00:45:31]  He did a CAT scan.
[00:45:32]  He got the results, and he sat you down.
[00:45:34]  And how did he tell you this?
[00:45:35]  Well, really, he didn't sit me down.
[00:45:37]  He ordered me back into the office.
[00:45:40]  And when I returned to his office, it was virtually vacated, but for him and a couple of the nurses I'd also grown up with.
[00:45:48]  And he hugged me first and had a lot of trouble talking.
[00:45:53]  Well, you've got a good doctor.
[00:45:54]  Oh, I had a fabulous physician.
[00:45:57]  Still do.
[00:45:58]  He's a wonderful man.
[00:45:59]  And so anyway, he hugged you.
[00:46:02]  He hugged me in a very broken tone.
[00:46:06]  You've got to know it's bad news when your doctor hugs you first out.
[00:46:09]  Oh, yeah.
[00:46:11]  Well, I knew by the look on his face that it wasn't good news.
[00:46:14]  It was just instantaneous.
[00:46:17]  And he told me that this was very serious.
[00:46:20]  Of course, I had no idea what an aneurysm was.
[00:46:23]  And this was in July of 1991.
[00:46:26]  And by August, I was at Barrow Institute having it removed.
[00:46:32]  Well, the aneurysm, you said you had headaches, terrible headaches for a decade, 10 years.
[00:46:38]  Right.
[00:46:38]  So that must mean I've never heard of such a, I mean, what do I know about aneurysms, but that's awfully slow.
[00:46:46]  It must have been just slowly getting bigger and bigger and bigger and making your symptoms more severe.
[00:46:52]  Exactly.
[00:46:53]  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:46:55]  And we weren't sure that the aneurysm caused the pain until the aneurysm had been clipped and the pain disappeared.
[00:47:02]  Sure.
[00:47:02]  There was still a good possibility that it was migraine pain.
[00:47:06]  But I guess he well, what did he tell you or what I guess you then, of course, went to specialists, and they began to tell you, what did they say your chances were?
[00:47:18]  Virtually zero.
[00:47:20]  Zero?
[00:47:21]  Mm-hmm.
[00:47:22]  Did you get the Better Get Your Affairs in Order of Speech?
[00:47:25]  Exactly.
[00:47:26]  I got in the car, left the last specialist, and my husband and I got in the car and went immediately to our attorney's office for the filing of my last will and testament.
[00:47:36]  Oh, my.
[00:47:36]  And the dispensation of our three children, who are, of course, my eldest was 12, and my baby was seven, not quite eight.
[00:47:44]  How did you face how did you handle the news and the prospect that you were going to die?
[00:47:53]  I think I was in a state of shock, and thank God for shock, because in my case, it allowed me to very easily go through the motions of getting things taken care of.
[00:48:06]  And being a mother, I wasn't so concerned with myself as I was for my children.
[00:48:10]  How old were your children at the time?
[00:48:12]  My baby was seven.
[00:48:14]  Oh, okay.
[00:48:14]  And my oldest child had just turned 12.
[00:48:16]  Oh, my.
[00:48:17]  So they were pretty small.
[00:48:19]  Yeah.
[00:48:19]  Pretty small.
[00:48:20]  And to tell them.
[00:48:22]  Oh, yes, absolutely.
[00:48:25]  I had no idea how to tell my children.
[00:48:28]  Did you sit them all down together and tell them?
[00:48:30]  Yes, I did.
[00:48:32]  Oh, brother.
[00:48:33]  I explained to them that I would be making a journey, and they could not go this time, but I would see them.
[00:48:42]  And no matter what happened, even though I couldn't physically be here, I would always be here with them emotionally.
[00:48:48]  They couldn't see me, but I could see them.
[00:48:52]  You know, I believed that.
[00:48:53]  I did, too.
[00:48:56]  I still do.
[00:48:57]  I still believe it.
[00:48:58]  I still believe it.
[00:49:00]  At any rate, it must have been rough.
[00:49:03]  I mean, to lay that on your children, did they handle it?
[00:49:08]  Not very well.
[00:49:10]  Naturally, they became very clingy.
[00:49:13]  My oldest son and my middle daughter were convinced that I was like a cat with nine lies.
[00:49:20]  Really?
[00:49:21]  Oh, yes.
[00:49:22]  My middle daughter told me, well, Mom, if you die, you'll be back, right?
[00:49:27]  Like a cat.
[00:49:30]  And I think, the truth be told, I don't think they accepted it.
[00:49:35]  How about your husband?
[00:49:36]  Oh, my husband was devastated.
[00:49:39]  There was no talking to him, no dealing with him.
[00:49:42]  He just walked around in circles and had no earthly idea what to do.
[00:49:46]  Yeah, it's unimaginable.
[00:49:50]  The way my wife and I are, as close as we are, it's unimaginable to lose her.
[00:49:55]  So to have sort of notification that you're about.
[00:49:59]  That's just too much.
[00:50:01]  So did your personal doctor give you any, well, listen, you've got, we're going to estimate you've got weeks or months or a year to live, or what did he tell you?
[00:50:13]  Well, the aneurysm had already begun to rupture.
[00:50:16]  We had bleeding in the brain, which was causing the loss of speech and the inability to comprehend language.
[00:50:22]  And he told me in cases such as these, I would be lucky to see a month.
[00:50:27]  Lucky for a month.
[00:50:30]  But any attempt to go in and surgically clip the aneurysm would be certain death.
[00:50:37]  And his advice to me was to take what I had.
[00:50:40]  Take your time.
[00:50:41]  Exactly.
[00:50:43]  And thank God for it.
[00:50:44]  And things happen as they happened.
[00:50:50]  Obviously, you didn't stop there.
[00:50:52]  Now, how did you get on to this Dr. Spetzler and the Barrow Institute?
[00:50:58]  I mean, you must have been in the middle of knowing it was over and yet still trying to reach out for anything.
[00:51:04]  How did you get on to this?
[00:51:06]  Well, we just we got real blessed at that point in time.
[00:51:09]  My mother was a physician's assistant for many years until she retired, and many of my dearest friends are physicians and have been all of my life.
[00:51:18]  And I heard this incredible story about a doctor who was performing this daring surgery, whereby they literally put the body in a state of stasis, draining all the blood, taking the temperature down to 58 degrees Fahrenheit, stopping the heart, no brain waves.
[00:51:36]  No brain waves.
[00:51:38]  No brain waves.
[00:51:39]  And in that state of stasis, the aneurysm shrinks.
[00:51:44]  No blood in the brain, no blood in the aneurysm.
[00:51:47]  Well, sure, no blood, nothing in the aneurysm, so it just shrinks, shrivels right up.
[00:51:53]  Exactly.
[00:51:54]  So that enabled him to then go in safely with no pressure on the brain.
[00:51:58]  What was your age then?
[00:52:00]  I was 35 years old.
[00:52:01]  Oh, God, 35.
[00:52:03]  Yes.
[00:52:04]  And a very young 35.
[00:52:06]  Oh, my.
[00:52:08]  So it was tough.
[00:52:10]  So you heard about this and did what?
[00:52:14]  Made a call?
[00:52:15]  Yes, we immediately contacted Barrow Institute and sent our records out, and I was found to be an extremely good candidate for the surgery because in every other way I was perfectly healthy and very strong.
[00:52:31]  And young?
[00:52:32]  Yes, sir.
[00:52:33]  Yeah, I would think you would be a very good candidate.
[00:52:37]  And how much of a description?
[00:52:38]  So you went out and visited them, I take it.
[00:52:41]  Mm-hmm.
[00:52:42]  They invited you out, said, yeah, you're a candidate, come on out.
[00:52:44]  We want to see you.
[00:52:45]  Right.
[00:52:46]  I went in to see Dr. Spetzler on a Wednesday and had surgery on a Thursday.
[00:52:51]  Holy mackerel.
[00:52:53]  And I didn't have a very good comprehension of what they were going to do to me.
[00:52:58]  I knew the heart would stop, but in terms of the draining of the blood, the cooling of the body...
[00:53:03]  He didn't lay all that out?
[00:53:04]  Well...
[00:53:05]  Well, he may have, but I really didn't comprehend.
[00:53:10]  Maybe you didn't exactly want to hear that either.
[00:53:12]  Exactly.
[00:53:15]  I think that's a very good way to put it.
[00:53:18]  What did he tell you about the risks that you were at?
[00:53:23]  I mean, surely he had at least explained what the probabilities for success were and that you might not make it through.
[00:53:30]  Well, on a personal level, he promised he'd get me back.
[00:53:34]  He did.
[00:53:34]  And I believed him wholeheartedly.
[00:53:37]  This man has a very, very strong ability to win confidence.
[00:53:46]  He himself is a very confident person.
[00:53:49]  You know, as we consider our heads and our brains, where in your brain was this?
[00:53:56]  It was in the Circle of Willis, a place where my physician tells me that a very few short years ago, no one dared to go because...
[00:54:05]  I don't know where that is.
[00:54:07]  Is that towards the central part of your brain?
[00:54:09]  Right in the middle of the brain.
[00:54:10]  In the middle of the brain.
[00:54:12]  Right.
[00:54:12]  So if it went, all my functions went with it.
[00:54:17]  Holy sweet.
[00:54:17]  It was a very, very dangerous procedure, and Dr. Spetzler said that he only did this as a last-ditch effort to save a life.
[00:54:25]  Did he tell you how many times he had performed this previously?
[00:54:29]  Not very many.
[00:54:30]  I was pretty early in the list.
[00:54:32]  This was back in 1991.
[00:54:34]  Oh, boy.
[00:54:36]  Yeah.
[00:54:37]  But, you know, it's funny what we'll do when we have no choice.
[00:54:41]  Well, there was the other option, but that's no option, really.
[00:54:44]  Exactly.
[00:54:45]  Well, nevertheless, though, I mean, you're balancing the possibility of another month of life against the possibility of death on the operating table, and I'm sure you and your husband talked that one over.
[00:54:56]  You know, really, we didn't spend a lot of time with that because with the surgical procedure, we felt like we had an opportunity to live out the entire lifetime.
[00:55:07]  So we didn't really look at it as another month of life or choose on the table.
[00:55:12]  No decision to make.
[00:55:13]  You were just going to go for it.
[00:55:14]  Right, exactly.
[00:55:15]  But again, Dr. Spetzler is a very downright inspirational in his personal discipline.
[00:55:24]  Confidence.
[00:55:24]  And I've got a great story about what really made me believe that he could do this job.
[00:55:30]  Let's hear it.
[00:55:32]  Dr. Spetzler is a classical musician.
[00:55:36]  Right away, I related to him and understood him.
[00:55:39]  And I heard music laughing down the hall as I sat in the waiting room.
[00:55:43]  And I asked one of his fellows if that was a live recording.
[00:55:48]  And he said, no, that's Dr. Spetzler.
[00:55:50]  He plays to keep his hands loose and to stay in shape.
[00:55:54]  And the dynamics and the sense of touch was just absolutely incredible.
[00:56:01]  And as a trained musician, growing up in it all of my life, I knew that any hands could do what those could.
[00:56:09]  Those hands were so controlled, and the dynamics were incredible.
[00:56:13]  Yes, and he was personally very compelling.
[00:56:16]  Oh, well, yes.
[00:56:17]  Was he one of the pioneers to do this kind of operation?
[00:56:21]  I believe he is the pioneer to do this kind of operation.
[00:56:24]  The pioneer.
[00:56:26]  Well, I guess if you're going to do something like this, you'd like to be with the one who knows the most about it.
[00:56:31]  Absolutely.
[00:56:32]  That would be good, yes.
[00:56:33]  And imagine the nerve, the sheer nerve it would take to put a body through that process.
[00:56:40]  Every time he does it, he lays himself on the line 100%.
[00:56:45]  I suppose, I bet you had to sign a lot of releases, huh?
[00:56:48]  A pretty good many, yes.
[00:56:50]  Now, when you went down there to talk to him, was your expectation that you were going to have this operation right away, or did you just think you were going to go see him and maybe have some tests and that sort of thing, and then come home and then maybe come back and have the operation?
[00:57:07]  I mean, it was like the next day.
[00:57:09]  No, I knew that I was in a very precarious situation and that a matter of 24 hours could mean life or death for me.
[00:57:17]  So immediately, as soon as he could get me in, he did that.
[00:57:23]  And I knew I had no doubt in my mind that I would be put in immediately.
[00:57:29]  What was the last period of time before the anesthetic hit you that you spent with your husband?
[00:57:38]  What was that like?
[00:57:39]  Well, they came into the hall to visit with me for a moment before they wheeled me into the OR.
[00:57:45]  And it was just hugs and kisses and see you on the other side.
[00:57:49]  And that was pretty much it.
[00:57:51]  The other side of the operation or the other side?
[00:57:53]  The other side of the operation.
[00:57:56]  Another peculiar thing about this is many members of my family were with me.
[00:58:02]  And no one had any doubt in their mind that everything would be fine.
[00:58:05]  Listen, I'm going to ask a lot of questions through this.
[00:58:07]  And if at any time you don't want to, if it's too personal, you can tell me to go climb a tree, okay?
[00:58:12]  Well, guess what?
[00:58:12]  I'm good at that.
[00:58:14]  All right, good.
[00:58:15]  Good, because I just, you know, what you went through is so incredible that I really want to fully understand it.
[00:58:22]  And I can only do that by, I guess, understanding the mood.
[00:58:26]  So you went, I understand it's really important that somebody go into an operation like this with a lot of confidence, a lot of hope, a lot of, you know, good feelings and not negativity.
[00:58:39]  Exactly.
[00:58:40]  In fact, I promised Dr. Spetzler that I would work with him 100%.
[00:58:45]  And that if he'd just make sure and get the body back, I'd do the rest.

=== Heart Stop Procedure (03:15) ===

[00:58:50]  Does he also believe in that?
[00:58:51]  That a positive attitude is really important for a surgical positive result?
[00:58:56]  Yes, he does.
[00:58:58]  He certainly does.
[00:59:00]  So that was it.
[00:59:04]  They rolled you in, and even though you didn't completely understand what they were going to do, you did at least understand your heart was going to come to a stop.
[00:59:14]  Right.
[00:59:16]  He promised me that that would be a temporary situation.
[00:59:19]  You promised me he'd get me back.
[00:59:21]  And I believed him.
[00:59:23]  I believed him.
[00:59:24]  He believed, I believed.
[00:59:26]  But still, he didn't give you the downside risk?
[00:59:29]  He didn't tell you anything at all about the hospital?
[00:59:32]  Yes, he did.
[00:59:33]  You know, when we go into the hospital for a tonsillectomy, one of the things that is on your release form is death.
[00:59:40]  And she didn't get near death.
[00:59:42]  She died.
[00:59:43]  I'm Art Bell.
[00:59:44]  We've got quite a story to hear.
[00:59:46]  This is Premier Networks.
[00:59:48]  That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
[01:00:00]  She must have a smile for his nostalgic death.
[01:00:21]  We take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
[01:00:27]  And we've got Pam Reynolds, who died.
[01:00:29]  There's no other way to put this.
[01:00:31]  If your brain waves have stopped, the measurement most neurologists use for death, you're gone.
[01:00:38]  Heart stopped, blood out of your body.
[01:00:41]  That's it.
[01:00:42]  You're dead for a period of time.
[01:00:44]  Body temperature lowered down to, as Rush would say, way down below room temperature.
[01:00:52]  What a procedure.
[01:00:54]  And we've got it right here tonight.
[01:00:56]  More coming up.
[01:01:16]  Once again, from Atlanta, Georgia, here is Pam Reynolds.
[01:01:21]  Pam, welcome back.
[01:01:22]  Thank you, Art.
[01:01:23]  All right, again, you know, we're on this risk thing, and even though he gave you great amounts of confidence, and I understand why he would want to do that and why it would be good for you, nevertheless, at some point, he had a responsibility, I think, to, you know, to explain to you that there was a pretty serious risk.

=== Consciousness Beyond Pain (15:29) ===

[01:01:47]  Yes, he did.
[01:01:48]  This is not something that you would perform on a daily basis for any old aneurysm.
[01:01:54]  This is absolutely a last-ditch effort to save a life.
[01:01:57]  Yeah.
[01:01:57]  And it's only used as a last-ditch effort.
[01:02:00]  And that's how he laid it out.
[01:02:02]  Oh, exactly.
[01:02:02]  And he did explain, I think my ability to comprehend was just not up to speed.
[01:02:09]  Because remember, this is a very unusual procedure.
[01:02:14]  How out of it were you?
[01:02:16]  I mean, you said your speech was deteriorated.
[01:02:19]  And it must have been affecting your thinking process as well.
[01:02:23]  Well, the pain was affecting my thinking process.
[01:02:26]  I had such intense pain that focus was difficult.
[01:02:31]  A lot of people who are in that much pain say that, well, we might as well fix it because I can't live like this.
[01:02:40]  Right.
[01:02:40]  It was to that point.
[01:02:42]  Oh, it was beyond that point.
[01:02:43]  Beyond.
[01:02:44]  It was way beyond that point.
[01:02:47]  Okay.
[01:02:48]  I was just so blessed to be in that position at that time.
[01:02:52]  So they prepped you very quickly, obviously, and they took you into surgery.
[01:03:01]  Now, again, please don't take this as insensitive, but brain surgery is a pretty strange thing.
[01:03:10]  They have drills and they have saws and they have, you know, it takes a lot.
[01:03:15]  It's like a big coconut trying to get into a human brain.
[01:03:18]  Exactly.
[01:03:18]  And they've got to more or less saw the sucker open.
[01:03:21]  Mm-hmm.
[01:03:22]  So as they wheeled you into the operating room, what sort of paraphernalia did you notice hanging around?
[01:03:30]  I didn't see anything.
[01:03:32]  I bet they cover all that stuff up.
[01:03:34]  Well, I think they probably put me out before they brought it out.
[01:03:38]  I mean, you don't want to see a line of chainsaws as they move.
[01:03:40]  No, Dr. Spetler said that there was no way that I could have seen any of that equipment going in, and I certainly didn't see it coming out.
[01:03:49]  I see.
[01:03:50]  So.
[01:03:52]  So then, so in you go, and it looks pretty good, and I guess they're saying we're about to give you a little bit of this or that and count backwards for us or the trees, you know, whatever.
[01:04:04]  Right.
[01:04:05]  And away you went, huh?
[01:04:07]  Mm-hmm.
[01:04:09]  Well, then this is the big question.
[01:04:13]  Then what?
[01:04:14]  Well, my first recollection, this is very odd.
[01:04:17]  I heard a pitch, and I pitched it at Natural D as a musician with perfect pitch.
[01:04:23]  It was natural D.
[01:04:25]  And the sound of it sort of reminded me of being in a dentist's office of a drill.
[01:04:30]  Oh.
[01:04:30]  And I began to feel myself being pulled out of the top of my head.
[01:04:35]  Really?
[01:04:35]  Yeah.
[01:04:37]  And as I got out of the top of my head, I had this incredibly clear vision.
[01:04:43]  And my hearing was enhanced.
[01:04:46]  While I know it sounds funny, but to describe it this way, that there were physical properties to the soul.
[01:04:55]  They were definitely enhanced.
[01:04:58]  It's as if every cell in my body was carrying the senses.
[01:05:03]  And the first thing that I saw was an instrument in his hand that reminded me very much of the handle on my electric toothbrush.
[01:05:10]  Oh, wait a minute.
[01:05:11]  You saw him?
[01:05:12]  Yes.
[01:05:13]  Meaning you saw the doctor?
[01:05:14]  Yes.
[01:05:15]  I saw many doctors.
[01:05:16]  You saw, oh my goodness, you saw the operating room.
[01:05:20]  Absolutely.
[01:05:21]  Yes.
[01:05:22]  I saw them performing surgery on me.
[01:05:25]  And there's a part of the surgical process whereby they access the femoral arteries and vein in order to remove the blood.
[01:05:34]  Yes.
[01:05:35]  And I was very confused.
[01:05:36]  I thought they were doing surgery on the wrong place because, as we know, the femoral arteries are high up on the leg.
[01:05:44]  That's right, yes.
[01:05:45]  And I distinctly heard a female voice.
[01:05:48]  I would later learn she was my cardiologist.
[01:05:52]  I distinctly heard her say, we have a little problem here.
[01:05:55]  Her veins and arteries are too small.
[01:05:58]  So they were attempting then to get in, to remove all of your blood from the arteries in your legs?
[01:06:08]  Exactly.
[01:06:10]  And they drained the blood.
[01:06:12]  And it went into a holding tank.
[01:06:16]  Your blood went into a holding tank.
[01:06:17]  Right.
[01:06:19]  Went into a holding tank until they reintroduced it into the body after the clipping of the aneurysm.
[01:06:26]  I take it they don't.
[01:06:28]  Do they drain your blood before they cool you down?
[01:06:32]  I think the cooling process begins first.
[01:06:34]  First.
[01:06:35]  Do you know how they do that?
[01:06:36]  I mean, do they pack you in ice?
[01:06:37]  Yes.
[01:06:37]  It's an ice bed, ice bath.
[01:06:39]  Wow.
[01:06:40]  And they cool your body down, and in that process, the heart, you reach a certain place where the heart naturally stops.
[01:06:48]  Just of its own.
[01:06:50]  Yes.
[01:06:51]  And then the blood is drained, and they get to a point where they can safely go in, use the brain saw, and go in and open the.
[01:07:00]  Well, here's a strange question for you: how can they drain your blood without your heart pumping it?
[01:07:09]  I don't know.
[01:07:10]  I really don't know.
[01:07:11]  And I could be confused about it.
[01:07:13]  No, not necessarily because I think, you know, in mortuaries, I don't want to get too morbid, but they drain the blood there without the heart pumping.
[01:07:20]  So obviously, there must be a way to do it.
[01:07:22]  I'm not a medical expert.
[01:07:23]  So there must be a way to do it.
[01:07:24]  So they cool you off, and then they drain all your blood, and this is stored in a blood vap.
[01:07:29]  Right.
[01:07:30]  And then your heart stops.
[01:07:33]  And I wonder how long it takes for your brain waves to cease.
[01:07:37]  I don't know.
[01:07:38]  I would think immediately with the absence of blood flow.
[01:07:41]  Right, pretty much immediately.
[01:07:42]  Right, I would think so.
[01:07:44]  But again, I'm not a doctor, and I can't really speak for Barrow Institute and what they do.
[01:07:50]  I can only tell you what I know from my point.
[01:07:52]  And then out comes the surgical chainsaw.
[01:07:56]  Well, it wasn't really a chainsaw.
[01:07:59]  It was.
[01:08:01]  It looked like the handle on my electric toothbrush.
[01:08:05]  And I could see they had this case that they kept different sizes of bits in.
[01:08:11]  And the case looked exactly like the case that my father kept his socket wrenches in when I was growing up.
[01:08:17]  Oh, my God.
[01:08:18]  So I was able to see that.
[01:08:20]  And I was able to hear the conversation.
[01:08:23]  And at about that time, I began to sense a pulling in my tummy.
[01:08:30]  And I looked up.
[01:08:32]  I sort of looked up and saw a light, a very small pinpoint of light way off in the distance.
[01:08:39]  Pam, just one quick break-in question.
[01:08:42]  Okay.
[01:08:42]  This, I really want to understand.
[01:08:44]  When you were seeing all of these things, and obviously you saw a great deal of detail.
[01:08:49]  Maybe it gave me too much, thank you.
[01:08:52]  Amen.
[01:08:54]  Did you feel conscious in the way that you feel conscious right now?
[01:08:58]  Was it the same kind of consciousness or a greater consciousness?
[01:09:03]  Yes, it was a heightened consciousness, Art.
[01:09:05]  It was very heightened.
[01:09:07]  I have never experienced anything before or since like that.
[01:09:11]  It was absolute, total, and complete focus.
[01:09:15]  My eyesight was more clear.
[01:09:17]  My hearing was more acute.
[01:09:20]  I was just.
[01:09:21]  And pain?
[01:09:22]  None.
[01:09:23]  Oh, no.
[01:09:24]  No pain.
[01:09:24]  The feeling was incredible.
[01:09:26]  And your awareness of self was either as good or better than ever.
[01:09:32]  Absolutely.
[01:09:34]  And I was not changed in terms of self.
[01:09:37]  I still had my same mind, my same attitudes, my same likes and dislikes.
[01:09:43]  It was absolutely me without the body.
[01:09:46]  Well, you say without the body.
[01:09:49]  So you were seeing your body operated on from a detached place?
[01:09:53]  Exactly.
[01:09:54]  And I looked down at the body, realized it was my body.
[01:09:58]  Oh.
[01:09:58]  But I've got to tell you, I felt about as attached to it, less attached to it, than I have some cars I've had to get rid of.
[01:10:07]  I absolutely had no attachment whatsoever to that body.
[01:10:11]  So, like, if you had had to leave at that moment, you wouldn't have mourned as you left your home.
[01:10:15]  No, no problem.
[01:10:17]  But the feeling of coming out of it, especially having endured so much pain for so long, the feeling was total freedom, total peace, just complete serenity.
[01:10:30]  All right.
[01:10:31]  Yeah, I wanted to understand the state of consciousness.
[01:10:34]  That sounds really complete.
[01:10:35]  In fact, super consciousness.
[01:10:37]  And so, wow.
[01:10:38]  Oh, okay.
[01:10:39]  So then you say you saw a light.
[01:10:41]  Right.
[01:10:42]  And the light began to pull me.
[01:10:44]  And I literally had a physical sensation right above my belly button that reminds me of going over a hill real fast.
[01:10:51]  Well, no, no, but here you are again talking about the physical.
[01:10:56]  Exactly.
[01:10:57]  But you were detached from your body.
[01:10:59]  So when you say belly button, what do you mean?
[01:11:02]  I mean that there were properties to the soul that had, well, physical properties.
[01:11:09]  They weren't the same.
[01:11:10]  They were very different from the physical properties of the body.
[01:11:12]  Well, could you, was there anything of yourself?
[01:11:15]  Did you look at your detached self?
[01:11:18]  Were there hands and legs and feet and?
[01:11:20]  No.
[01:11:20]  As a matter of fact, at one point, I put my hands up in front of my face, and the light was so incredibly bright that I could not see them.
[01:11:30]  Wow.
[01:11:31]  So in other words, you had a physical sense of all this, but no sight sense of it.
[01:11:36]  Well, not of my own body.
[01:11:38]  Of your own body, I've got you.
[01:11:40]  I was able to see others, but not myself.
[01:11:43]  So a very bright light, and you're starting to be drawn to it.
[01:11:48]  As if you wanted to go, or it was just drawing you whether you wanted to go or not.
[01:11:52]  No, I wanted to go.
[01:11:54]  It was wonderful.
[01:11:55]  I cannot find words to express how incredibly free and serene.
[01:12:02]  And the light was beautiful.
[01:12:04]  And very shortly after that began, I distinctly heard my grandmother call me.
[01:12:10]  Your grandmother?
[01:12:11]  Mm-hmm, my grandmother.
[01:12:13]  And I sort of turned around to look from where her voice was coming, and there she was.
[01:12:20]  And there she was?
[01:12:21]  Yes, she was there.
[01:12:23]  And with her was an uncle.
[01:12:25]  There were many people I recognized, and many I didn't.
[01:12:28]  Do you remember your people?
[01:12:30]  Do you remember your surroundings other than the people being there?
[01:12:33]  In other words, was it just sort of light and they were within that light?
[01:12:39]  Or were there physical surroundings as well?
[01:12:42]  They were light.
[01:12:43]  They themselves were light.
[01:12:45]  Their clothing was light.
[01:12:46]  light was emanating from them it was um all right um How do you explain it?
[01:12:54]  Just the best you can.
[01:12:56]  It was.
[01:12:58]  At one point, I sensed a garden atmosphere.
[01:13:01]  I didn't really see a garden.
[01:13:03]  Okay.
[01:13:04]  But it's almost like I could smell fresh, new, just the feeling of being a garden.
[01:13:12]  But now, remember, I was not permitted to go all the way through.
[01:13:16]  I was stopped and detained at one point and told or communicated to that if I were allowed to go any further, something, a physical change would occur, and they would be unable to reconnect the spiritual me to the physical me.
[01:13:34]  So I was held there and not permitted to go all the way in.
[01:13:38]  Well, okay.
[01:13:40]  Here you are, though, with your relatives at one point, and then you left them.
[01:13:46]  And how did this communication with you take place?
[01:13:49]  Was this separate from your relatives, or were they still there at the time?
[01:13:52]  They were with me, but with my relatives, there was a sea of people I didn't recognize.
[01:13:58]  Now, I know I was connected to them somehow.
[01:14:00]  A sea of people?
[01:14:02]  Everywhere, all around me.
[01:14:06]  And it struck me as really strange, and it still does today.
[01:14:08]  These people loved me so much, and I didn't know who they were.
[01:14:13]  I felt a strong connection to them, but I did not know who they were.
[01:14:19]  Had you led, you know, I don't know how to ask this question.
[01:14:23]  Had you led a good life?
[01:14:25]  I mean, had you been basically a good person or?
[01:14:28]  Oh, that's a fabulous question, because when I first got there, my first thought was, I hope I'm in the right place because I have not lived a perfect life.
[01:14:40]  I've always been a loving person, but, you know, I was taught in a very stringent Christian environment that if you screw up, guess where you go?
[01:14:51]  Gotcha.
[01:14:51]  And Lord knows I've done my share of screwing up.
[01:14:54]  I see.
[01:14:54]  Yeah, we all have.
[01:14:55]  Uh-huh.
[01:14:56]  We all have.
[01:14:57]  And there was a great laughter when I was thinking this thought, and my grandmother communicated to me: you were a child sent away to school.
[01:15:06]  As a child, it was expected that you would spill your milk.
[01:15:10]  It's the manner in which you cleaned it up that gives us cause for pride and allows you to be here.
[01:15:16]  Wow.
[01:15:17]  So, and I thought, you know, that's it.
[01:15:20]  That's it.
[01:15:21]  We do what we know how to do, and when we make a mess, we clean it up and we try real hard not to do it again.
[01:15:27]  Yeah.
[01:15:28]  And bingo.
[01:15:31]  During this particular time when your relatives were there, in other words, did you realize, did you know that you were dead?
[01:15:47]  Yeah, dead.
[01:15:48]  Yes.
[01:15:49]  I mean, you knew you were dead.
[01:15:51]  You were conscious of your situation now.
[01:15:53]  We talked a lot about.
[01:15:54]  And could have cared less.
[01:15:55]  We talk a lot.
[01:15:56]  Oh, really?
[01:15:57]  We talk a lot about ghosts and stuff on this program.
[01:16:00]  And a lot of people speculate that some people, you know, who die instantly might not know right away that they're even dead.
[01:16:08]  You know, I can see how that happens.
[01:16:10]  But in my case, remember, I did have a clear understanding that I would have no heartbeat.
[01:16:16]  Right.
[01:16:17]  I didn't know about the blood thing or didn't.
[01:16:20]  I probably knew but didn't understand it.
[01:16:23]  I didn't know how completely I would be dead.
[01:16:26]  But yes, I did have some warning.
[01:16:28]  And when it happened to me, I was not surprised.
[01:16:32]  I didn't expect it, but I was not surprised.
[01:16:35]  It seemed as natural to me as waking up in the morning.
[01:16:38]  So after the relatives or with them, after chatting with them, some voice or something imparted to you in what way that, listen, you can't really go any further.
[01:16:50]  Right.
[01:16:51]  Or you shouldn't go any further.
[01:16:52]  Which was it?
[01:16:53]  Right.
[01:16:54]  Well, I was not allowed to.
[01:16:55]  It was, I can't.
[01:16:57]  I was not given an opportunity to make a decision.

=== Sense Of Time Discrepancy (02:23) ===

[01:17:01]  That decision apparently had been made before I laid on that table.
[01:17:06]  And I don't feel like it was a decision that was made for me, even though, to be honest, once I got there, I changed my mind.
[01:17:14]  I really had no desire.
[01:17:16]  To go back?
[01:17:17]  To well, I wanted to come back and rear my children and live my life.
[01:17:25]  But at the end of the experience, when I saw the body, needless to say, it terrified me.
[01:17:32]  I did not want to get in it.
[01:17:34]  I knew it was going to hurt.
[01:17:36]  And I had no interest in doing it at all whatsoever.
[01:17:41]  What about when you were out of your body?
[01:17:44]  What about your sense of time?
[01:17:47]  Was there any difference?
[01:17:48]  In other words, there was a linear amount of time that the operation went on, and a linear amount of time that you were dead.
[01:17:57]  There was no sense of time or space whatsoever.
[01:18:00]  So it didn't coincide with what you felt when you were gone?
[01:18:03]  Nothing, no.
[01:18:04]  However, in terms of linear time, the physicians who investigated the case tell me that my recount of the experience matched perfectly with the timing of the surgery.
[01:18:19]  Just as a matter of interest, well, first of all, did you recount all of this to your physicians, surgeons, afterwards?
[01:18:28]  Yes, I did, immediately afterwards.
[01:18:30]  Immediately, huh?
[01:18:32]  And how did they treat that information?
[01:18:35]  Well, I remember Dr. Spetzer raising an eyebrow and looking at me in a peculiar manner.
[01:18:40]  Really?
[01:18:40]  Oh, yes.
[01:18:41]  But at the time, I believed that this was perfectly normal, that it happened to everyone.
[01:18:47]  And I thought dealing in these kinds of cases, as he did, surely he knew about it.
[01:18:53]  And I was, frankly, very flippant and teasing about what had happened to me.
[01:18:59]  Yeah, but as you began to give him details of what you could not possibly, not possibly have known, this must have been a little difficult for him to handle.

=== Pam's Mysterious Encounter (08:03) ===

[01:19:10]  You know, Dr. Spencer handles an awful lot easily.
[01:19:14]  Does he?
[01:19:15]  Oh, yes.
[01:19:15]  He's, you know, he runs a research center.
[01:19:18]  And he's, he once told me that we are in our infancy in our understanding of the brain and what it can do.
[01:19:26]  And recounting that kind of evidence so quickly after surgery and having no way of knowing those details.
[01:19:33]  Right, not having talked to nurses who were there or surgical texts or whatever.
[01:19:38]  Right.
[01:19:40]  He's certainly, although it doesn't correspond with what he knows about the brain, I believe he said on one of the Discovery Channel programs, he certainly is not all knowing enough to say it didn't happen.
[01:19:55]  And it is quite unusual that those kinds of details in that great of number would be so forthcoming so quickly after the process.
[01:20:03]  Well, you know, he would be an interesting person for me to interview about your case and other cases just like yours.
[01:20:12]  Right.
[01:20:13]  Well, you know the man.
[01:20:14]  Put in a good word for me, would you?
[01:20:16]  I will.
[01:20:16]  I'll be glad to.
[01:20:18]  All right.
[01:20:18]  Pam, we're at a breakpoint.
[01:20:20]  So hold on.
[01:20:21]  Pam Reynolds is my guest.
[01:20:24]  She died on the operating table.
[01:20:26]  And, you know, I've forgotten to even ask how long.
[01:20:30]  Quite some period of time, though.
[01:20:31]  She was physically dead.
[01:20:33]  And you're hearing her story.
[01:20:35]  I'm Art Bell.
[01:20:36]  The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
[01:20:42]  More Somewhere in Time coming up.
[01:20:44]  You're listening to Art Bell,
[01:21:13]  Somewhere in Time.
[01:21:15]  Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 1st, 2002.
[01:21:19]  My guest is Pam Reynolds, and she died on the operating table.
[01:21:24]  All the blood gone, heart stopped, brainwaves gone.
[01:21:28]  Dead.
[01:21:30]  And that's what we're talking about.
[01:21:31]  Remarkable, just a remarkable story, and we'll get right back to it.
[01:21:54]  Okay, once again, Pam Reynolds and...
[01:21:58]  And, oh, boy, Pam, so, so many questions.
[01:22:06]  How did your relatives appear to you?
[01:22:09]  Did they appear to be in the full physical?
[01:22:13]  Were they somewhat translucent?
[01:22:14]  Were they only beings of light?
[01:22:18]  And if so, how did you recognize them as your relatives?
[01:22:21]  Well, they did.
[01:22:22]  They looked like my relatives.
[01:22:23]  And the peculiar thing is, is they look like my relatives at the best times in their lives.
[01:22:28]  Really?
[01:22:29]  Yes, even my grandmother looked very young.
[01:22:32]  Her voice was my identifier.
[01:22:34]  She did not look like she looked when she passed away.
[01:22:38]  No kidding.
[01:22:39]  No kidding.
[01:22:40]  My uncle as well.
[01:22:42]  I didn't see anyone old, and I didn't see anyone very, very young.
[01:22:47]  It was as if everyone I saw was perfect.
[01:22:51]  Well, I guess this is a kind of an ultimate question, Pam, but if you had no brain waves, you had no neural functions firing, your brain was dead meat.
[01:23:04]  Right.
[01:23:05]  During this time, then where were you, Pam?
[01:23:11]  That's an excellent question.
[01:23:13]  And it's one for the books.
[01:23:16]  It has huge implications for not only the physical aspects, but also the medical aspects.
[01:23:22]  Yes.
[01:23:23]  I used to myself believe in the brain theory.
[01:23:25]  The brain made me do it.
[01:23:28]  The physicians indicated to me, but, sweetheart, you had no brain.
[01:23:32]  And it wasn't a hallucination because you were hooked up to an EEG machine.
[01:23:36]  And if you had had a tickle of a brain wave, it would have registered.
[01:23:40]  You need brain waves and neural activity to have a hallucination.
[01:23:44]  Precisely.
[01:23:46]  Not only that, but when I came back into the body, and it still to this day astounds me, Art, that I'm able to recall this, that are registered and downloaded, and it's such a vivid memory, it's as if it's still happening.
[01:24:04]  And how does that happen?
[01:24:06]  See, that, to me, is one of those physical answers that I believe is knowable.
[01:24:11]  I think that eventually through research.
[01:24:13]  We can know.
[01:24:14]  Absolutely.
[01:24:15]  And that's why I totally support Barrow Institute Foundation because they are the cutting-edge research foundation for the brain.
[01:24:23]  Pun intended, I guess.
[01:24:27]  Pam, I wanted to tell you about a quick experience I had because it seems to parallel something that happened to you.
[01:24:33]  This is the only time it ever happened in my life.
[01:24:35]  You know, for years I've interviewed people about out-of-body experiences and all the rest of it.
[01:24:41]  It was all very interesting, but nothing had ever happened to me.
[01:24:44]  My wife and I had the opportunity, it was really cool, to go to Paris on the Concorde.
[01:24:52]  You know, it was one of those deals where we got to ride along as part of a sort of a radio station thing.
[01:24:58]  Very cool.
[01:24:59]  It was very cool.
[01:25:00]  And it, you know, I was working at the time six days a week, 30 hours on the air every week.
[01:25:07]  Whoa.
[01:25:08]  And I had a really, really strict schedule.
[01:25:12]  I mean, when you broadcast like this, your life revolves around it.
[01:25:15]  It's not just something you do.
[01:25:17]  Your life revolves around it.
[01:25:18]  And so I had a very strict regimen.
[01:25:21]  And when I went off to Paris, all of that got cattywampus.
[01:25:24]  It just, my life turned upside down.
[01:25:27]  All of a sudden, I had free time, and my mind was free, and I was relaxed and totally out of my normal environment.
[01:25:33]  And my wife and I were lying in a bed in Paris.
[01:25:38]  And, Pam, I went out of my body.
[01:25:42]  I have never experienced anything like this in my life.
[01:25:44]  It was like I instantly, at 10 zillion miles an hour, went up above Paris, way up above, somewhere up above Paris.
[01:25:53]  And I was in a completely joyful state.
[01:25:57]  I mean, I had never felt such overwhelming joy in my whole life.
[01:26:02]  Nothing like it.
[01:26:03]  Exactly.
[01:26:04]  And it shocked me so badly, Pam, that I snapped right back into my body.
[01:26:10]  You crashed is what you did.
[01:26:12]  Oh, man, did I crash?
[01:26:12]  I'll tell you what, it shocked me, Pam.
[01:26:14]  Crash-landing.
[01:26:15]  I crash-landed, and I was when I came to, when I came back, I woke up my wife, and I said, oh, my God, you wouldn't believe what just happened.
[01:26:27]  And I was telling her about it, and that's not a good thing.
[01:26:28]  Do wake up your wife like this.
[01:26:31]  But, you know, I couldn't stop talking about it.
[01:26:33]  I was so excited.
[01:26:34]  It was so amazing what happened to me.
[01:26:36]  Like I took a shot like the fastest elevator up you've ever and and and you experienced something just like that, didn't you?
[01:26:44]  Exactly.
[01:26:45]  Really?
[01:26:45]  That's why I have to believe that this thing happens to all of us, that it's physical law.
[01:26:50]  Physical law.
[01:26:51]  Right.
[01:26:51]  Belief system being belief systems and faith being a thing that's unprovable.
[01:26:57]  Physical law has no basis in belief system.

=== Different Tones, Different Spirits (11:32) ===

[01:27:02]  You don't have to believe the sun will come up in the morning for the sun to come up because it's physical law.
[01:27:08]  Well, you mentioned you were raised as a Christian, a very strict Christian household.
[01:27:13]  Pretty much, yes.
[01:27:15]  So did any part of your experience validate your religion or was religion sort of not exactly part of it?
[01:27:26]  Well, yes, it validated everything that I believe, but it did a little more than that for me.
[01:27:32]  I learned while I was there that each and every one of us has a different tone, a different spirit.
[01:27:39]  We're not cookie-cutter people.
[01:27:42]  And I firmly believe, as per my experience, that we all find our path on our own in our own individual ways.
[01:27:50]  And to borrow someone else's just does not work.
[01:27:54]  So souls then are absolutely individual things.
[01:27:58]  Absolutely.
[01:28:00]  There was no, in my experience, there was no great merging into one single unit.
[01:28:05]  I had all of my individuality intact.
[01:28:08]  And the people I was with did as well.
[01:28:11]  You know, that's what I've always wanted to know.
[01:28:14]  Although, you have to wonder if from where you were, you were to move onward, if that would change.
[01:28:22]  There's no way to know that, huh?
[01:28:24]  Well, no, not from where I am right now.
[01:28:27]  I suspect it would not, though.
[01:28:29]  And the reason I suspect that is because there was a great chorus going on.
[01:28:35]  And the chorus contained the different tones of the different people that I was with.
[01:28:40]  Now, as a musician, I can tell you that when you create that many tones, what you end up with is discordance.
[01:28:48]  However, it was just the opposite.
[01:28:50]  It was the most beautiful harmony I have ever experienced.
[01:28:54]  And I cannot tell you, even though my theory, I have a master's degree in classical composition, and I cannot tell you how that is possible.
[01:29:04]  But it is possible.
[01:29:06]  It happened.
[01:29:07]  And I could easily see how leaving out even one of those tones would leave a great hole in the chorus.
[01:29:15]  A very empty place in the chorus.
[01:29:18]  Do you think that it, of course, there's not going to be a way for you to answer this unless you had a conversation, but do you think it's going to be the same for everybody or an individual experience for everybody?
[01:29:32]  Well, you know, I think everything is an individual experience for everyone, even though it is the same.
[01:29:38]  My take on a full moon is going to be different than yours because we're different.
[01:29:44]  But yet it's the same moon.
[01:29:47]  So my take on it is a thing is not a thing.
[01:29:52]  A thing is how we perceive a thing.
[01:29:55]  And in that way, it's always different.
[01:29:58]  And yet it's the same.
[01:30:00]  Especially as pertaining to physical law.
[01:30:04]  And as I said before, I believe that this is going to happen to everyone, whether or not they believe it.
[01:30:10]  Did you have, with this light, did you have a dialogue with the light?
[01:30:15]  Were you able to ask anything or say anything?
[01:30:18]  Or was it just information?
[01:30:19]  Oh, really?
[01:30:20]  Yes.
[01:30:21]  But I wasn't speaking with a light.
[01:30:23]  I was speaking with individuals.
[01:30:25]  And there were many things passed between us.
[01:30:27]  Relatives?
[01:30:29]  Some relatives, and again.
[01:30:30]  And some not?
[01:30:31]  Many people that I did not know, but they knew me.
[01:30:35]  And there was some kind of connection there.
[01:30:37]  They knew you.
[01:30:40]  I go further than that.
[01:30:41]  They didn't just know me, they loved me and were very concerned for my life path and where I was and what was going on with me.
[01:30:49]  What kind of conversations can you recall?
[01:30:51]  What kind of communications?
[01:30:52]  Well, at one point, I asked what the nature of the light was, and I asked if the light was God.
[01:30:58]  Good question.
[01:30:59]  And I was told, no, the light is not God.
[01:31:03]  It's what happens when God respirates, breathe.
[01:31:09]  Again, there goes that physical concept.
[01:31:14]  I believe, you know, the scriptures say the kingdom of God is within, it's right here, it's right now.
[01:31:20]  Yes.
[01:31:20]  I think it's another dimension.
[01:31:22]  You do?
[01:31:23]  I really do.
[01:31:24]  I think it's another dimension that we just don't understand.
[01:31:27]  Our technology is not yet caught up with it.
[01:31:30]  A lot of our theoretical physicists, the best minds in the world, agree with you.
[01:31:35]  Really?
[01:31:36]  Oh, yes.
[01:31:37]  I interview them here, and that is where all the speculation is going right now about other dimensions, 11 or more of them, actually.
[01:31:46]  Well, that amazes me.
[01:31:49]  And perhaps you stepped into the first adjacent dimension.
[01:31:55]  Right.
[01:31:56]  It felt more like a holding tank than a final destination.
[01:32:00]  A holding tank.
[01:32:02]  It really did.
[01:32:03]  With all of these people.
[01:32:04]  Do you think these other people were also well, gee, in the case of your grandmother, she's been gone a while, earth time, I guess, right?
[01:32:15]  Right.
[01:32:16]  And so maybe there's no way to measure how long one stays in the, in quotes, holding tank, huh?
[01:32:25]  I don't think they belonged there.
[01:32:26]  I think they came for me.
[01:32:28]  For you?
[01:32:29]  Yes.
[01:32:31]  They came for me to retrieve me and take care of me and make sure that I made it to my destination.
[01:32:37]  Wow.
[01:32:38]  This would indicate a soul has great value indeed.
[01:32:42]  Exactly.
[01:32:44]  And it was also communicated to me that even though I didn't see them and talk with them on a daily basis, that they were able to come here and be with us.
[01:32:53]  So, I mean, for a while, I was a little nervous about getting in the shower.
[01:32:58]  In other words, a number of them told you they visit Earth?
[01:33:04]  Yes.
[01:33:05]  That they were with us, that they were with me.
[01:33:09]  Well, boy, that sure accounts for a lot.
[01:33:12]  And I sense them.
[01:33:13]  To this day, I sense them around me.
[01:33:15]  You feel them around you?
[01:33:16]  Mm-hmm.
[01:33:18]  Has this changed your.
[01:33:20]  I mean, most people have probably a natural fear of death.
[01:33:26]  Has this affected the way you feel about the prospect of eventual death?
[01:33:31]  After all, we are all going to die.
[01:33:33]  Well, you know, I really didn't contemplate it until I found out it was going to happen to me.
[01:33:39]  I don't think I had a fear of death per se.
[01:33:41]  I had a fear of leaving my children without their mother.
[01:33:44]  Of course.
[01:33:45]  But in terms of fearing death, absolutely not.
[01:33:49]  In fact, I've got another funny story for you.
[01:33:52]  The way that I was introduced to Dr. Michael Sabaum, who did the initial research on this case, was I went in for an appointment with a neurologist, and I had had a concussion to the back of the head and a severe brain injury after the surgery.
[01:34:08]  And she told me, in a very solemn way, that I was left with a condition that could easily take my life.
[01:34:16]  I laughed at her.
[01:34:17]  You laughed at her?
[01:34:18]  I laughed.
[01:34:20]  I couldn't stop laughing.
[01:34:22]  So that's the bad news.
[01:34:27]  You know, others that I have interviewed, you must know of Daniel Brinkley, for example.
[01:34:31]  I've heard the name, yeah.
[01:34:32]  Yeah, he's had several near-death experiences.
[01:34:35]  He was burned up, hit by lightning.
[01:34:39]  And he had, well, he.
[01:34:42]  Did you have a life review?
[01:34:44]  Any sort of life review?
[01:34:46]  No.
[01:34:47]  Okay, well, he did.
[01:34:48]  He also encountered a lot of what you encountered.
[01:34:51]  But, you know, his attitude about life-threatening stuff now is exactly that.
[01:34:57]  He laughs at people.
[01:34:59]  Yeah.
[01:35:00]  That's the bad news.
[01:35:01]  That's the bad news.
[01:35:03]  Don't beat me, hurt me, let me die.
[01:35:05]  He says it just like that.
[01:35:06]  He says it exactly like that.
[01:35:08]  So then your attitude about dying since that experience obviously is oh well.
[01:35:15]  Oh, absolutely.
[01:35:17]  It's not even oh well, it's oh good.
[01:35:19]  Oh, good?
[01:35:20]  Uh-huh.
[01:35:22]  I'm ready.
[01:35:22]  He says, Call me home.
[01:35:27]  Has it changed the way you live your life since?
[01:35:31]  Profoundly, yes.
[01:35:32]  Oh?
[01:35:33]  I'm pretty isolated.
[01:35:36]  I'm very sensitive, highly intuitive.
[01:35:41]  Oh, yes.
[01:35:43]  Yeah.
[01:35:44]  That's another thing that's happened to a lot of people who have done nearly what you have done, and that is that they have a heightened sense of psychic ability.
[01:35:56]  Although I don't like the word psychic, I can certainly understand why it would be referred to as that.
[01:36:03]  A heightened intuitiveness.
[01:36:05]  How about that?
[01:36:05]  Yeah, but it's a little more than that.
[01:36:08]  I paid very close attention to how it works in me, and I noticed that it's not purely telepathic.
[01:36:16]  I've noticed that a lot of it, at least half of it, is Sherlock Holmes syndrome.
[01:36:21]  Again, physical law.
[01:36:22]  If you do this, this will happen, cause and effect.
[01:36:26]  I have a heightened perception of what's going on.
[01:36:30]  If a person is telling me a story and swearing it's true while he's shaking his head backwards and forwards, I'm pretty sure they're lying.
[01:36:39]  And that, to me, is not necessarily a psychic phenomenon as I understand it.
[01:36:44]  And yet, when I think it's a combination of things, I think that this is the thing that everyone has, and we've allowed our intellects to override it.
[01:36:55]  I really believe that it's as primitive as animal instinct.
[01:36:58]  How soon after coming out of this did that begin?
[01:37:01]  Did you notice?
[01:37:02]  Immediately.
[01:37:05]  I could hear.
[01:37:06]  You see, the method of communication there was so much different than it is here.
[01:37:10]  Yes.
[01:37:11]  There was no verbal speech.
[01:37:13]  So immediately after the surgery, I was hearing people speak when they weren't speaking.
[01:37:20]  And that still is a very big problem for me.
[01:37:24]  Wow.
[01:37:25]  I'm out with people and I'll think they've said something to me, so I'll respond to them, and they look at me like, uh-oh.
[01:37:35]  Again, the same as other.
[01:37:38]  I've interviewed so many NDE people, and the same thing.
[01:37:42]  You know, again, I can refer to Dan because I know him so well.
[01:37:46]  He'll come to visit and he'll be with me, and I can't spend long amounts of time with Dan.
[01:37:52]  And the reason for that is because he makes me intensely uncomfortable.
[01:37:56]  The guy knows what I'm thinking all the time.
[01:37:59]  And it's unnerving.
[01:38:02]  Now, is this something you can turn off?
[01:38:05]  No.
[01:38:07]  If I could, believe me, I would.
[01:38:09]  See, I believe the energy is a lot like electricity.
[01:38:13]  It'll light the house up or burn it down.

=== Isolating Voices (02:44) ===

[01:38:16]  Now, not being an electrician, an electrician, I don't play with that.
[01:38:21]  But when the lights go on, I can't help but see.
[01:38:24]  Right.
[01:38:25]  And there's no way I can busy my mind and stave it off for a time.
[01:38:31]  But the moment I get quiet, here it comes.
[01:38:35]  And if you're adjacent to a lot of people, is it like a cacophony of noise?
[01:38:41]  Yes, sometimes.
[01:38:43]  And yet I can't, I am able to isolate what's coming from who.
[01:38:47]  Oh, you are?
[01:38:48]  Yes.
[01:38:49]  That's kind of a unique ability.
[01:38:51]  In the beginning, Danion told me he couldn't, and that bothered him intensely.
[01:38:56]  I mean, he would get to the point where he would tell everybody, get out of the room.
[01:39:00]  I'm sorry, I want to be alone.
[01:39:02]  I want to meditate.
[01:39:03]  I want to be alone.
[01:39:03]  I have to be alone.
[01:39:04]  Right.
[01:39:06]  Remarkable.
[01:39:06]  All right.
[01:39:07]  We're at the bottom of an hour.
[01:39:09]  Pam, hold on.
[01:39:10]  Pam Reynolds is my guest.
[01:39:13]  She went to the other side and back.
[01:39:18]  You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
[01:39:22]  Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 1st, 2002.
[01:39:28]  I'm just beginning to see now I'm on my way.
[01:39:37]  It doesn't matter to me.
[01:39:40]  Chasing the clouds don't be singing.
[01:39:44]  I love you.
[01:39:47]  I hear big descriptions.
[01:39:50]  Bring your network presents.
[01:39:52]  Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
[01:39:54]  Tonight featuring Coast to Coast A.M. from the 1st of February, 2002.
[01:39:59]  I think what I saw, the 48 Hours piece on Pam Reynolds, you may have seen it too.
[01:40:04]  They kind of left the piece by asking the really big question, and that was: during the time there were no brain waves, zip zero, nothing, where was Pam Reynolds?
[01:40:18]  Where was she?
[01:40:21]  We'll be right back.
[01:40:41]  Once again, from Atlanta, Georgia, Pam Reynolds.
[01:40:44]  Pam, during the time that you were gone, if that's the right word, gone, did you have any larger sense of the world?

=== Tunnel of Sparkle (15:36) ===

[01:40:54]  Did you understand any more about the world?
[01:40:57]  Absolutely.
[01:40:58]  Yes, I did.
[01:40:59]  Oh, you did?
[01:41:00]  Mm-hmm.
[01:41:01]  During the process when I was with my relatives and other people, they downloaded me.
[01:41:08]  They fed me something.
[01:41:10]  And it went into the top of my head, and it was sparkly, like golden sparkle.
[01:41:17]  Really?
[01:41:17]  And I literally had the sensation of being fed and nurtured.
[01:41:24]  And again, there comes that physical element.
[01:41:28]  And I had since then, I came back with assure and certain knowledge of the way we were going and how we were getting there and how we could avoid getting there.
[01:41:37]  Oh, my.
[01:41:37]  And how we couldn't.
[01:41:39]  Okay, tell us as much of that as you're able, if you would, please, because this, again, is so typical of what others have experienced.
[01:41:48]  Yes, I saw what a lot of people, other people see, vast earth changes.
[01:41:53]  I see a consciousness change.
[01:41:56]  And I think that's going to happen around 212.
[01:41:59]  2012.
[01:42:01]  End of the Mayan calendar.
[01:42:03]  Really?
[01:42:03]  Oh, yeah.
[01:42:04]  2012 is when the Mayan calendar just abruptly ends.
[01:42:08]  Like they didn't have anything more to, anyway.
[01:42:11]  Well, I don't see the end of the world, but I do see a breakthrough in physics that will cause us to understand the space-time continuum and how terribly wrong we are to look at time as a linear thing.
[01:42:24]  Holy mackerel, did you understand all of these concepts prior to this?
[01:42:29]  Of course not.
[01:42:30]  I'm a musician.
[01:42:32]  I understand B flat equals C when you're playing a trumpet.
[01:42:35]  And now you're throwing a time continuum at me.
[01:42:39]  Yeah, no.
[01:42:41]  I understood a lot about physical law that I absolutely had no concept of prior to.
[01:42:48]  What do we misunderstand or not understand about the nature of time?
[01:42:55]  We don't understand that everything that has ever happened and will ever happen is actually happening right now.
[01:43:02]  That linear time is a man-made device in order for us to control our environment, to be able to label it and move within the physical structure that we're in.
[01:43:14]  And it has really no relativity whatsoever outside of the human condition.
[01:43:19]  Oh.
[01:43:21]  It's just not like that.
[01:43:24]  You say you saw earth changes.
[01:43:28]  How specific?
[01:43:29]  I'm thinking something like polar shifts.
[01:43:32]  I'm thinking water where there was none.
[01:43:38]  I'm thinking volcanoes and earthquakes.
[01:43:43]  And, of course, we've had a lot of that going on already.
[01:43:46]  Oh, yes, we have.
[01:43:48]  And there's also, Pam, you know, there's mounting evidence now that what we had previously thought about what happened here on earth in man's history is all wrong.
[01:44:01]  Well, you're right.
[01:44:03]  Because we're much older and we have been more civilized for a longer time than is in recorded history.
[01:44:10]  About six months ago, Pam, I began breaking a story about this remarkable find 2,200 feet, almost a half a mile below the water in Cuba of this, what appears to be an urban area city.
[01:44:22]  And just tonight on CNN, MSNBC, Reuters, they're breaking the story themselves that there's been this urban city found way below the water in Cuba.
[01:44:35]  It's breaking the mainstream press.
[01:44:37]  So, you know, it would tend to underscore what you're saying right now.
[01:44:41]  Right.
[01:44:43]  The thing is, you know, I really believe that with all of our technology, we are so vulnerable to destruction because we all use computers, but can we build one?
[01:44:54]  And can we network all of these wonderful things that we have?
[01:44:58]  I think not.
[01:44:59]  We're too specialized for that.
[01:45:01]  And if we have a shutdown or a meltdown, we're right back to planting the seed and harvesting just to stay alive.
[01:45:08]  So it's very easy for me to see how advanced civilizations could go from that kind of advancement right back to agriculture.
[01:45:18]  Do you actually see that happening?
[01:45:19]  In other words, you're right.
[01:45:21]  I mean, we're a technological civilization.
[01:45:23]  I'm one who lives clearly right in the very middle of it all the time.
[01:45:27]  And we depend on this, but it's a thin thread indeed, and it wouldn't take much to toss us back.
[01:45:34]  Right.
[01:45:35]  Right.
[01:45:37]  I see that happening, but I don't see it happening globally.
[01:45:40]  I think that we've come to a point, humanity has come to a point that our technology is merging with our spirituality.
[01:45:50]  And as this begins to happen, our memories become more acute.
[01:45:53]  And I believe that we are able to store and pass on to future generations more of that than we were ever before.
[01:46:03]  In this great download of information that occurred to you, was there anything with regard to what's happening in the world, the environment of the world itself?
[01:46:13]  Yes, in terms of, like, for instance, the war in the Middle East.
[01:46:18]  Yes.
[01:46:20]  That was something that I shared, as a matter of fact, with a very dear friend of mine shortly after the process.
[01:46:25]  Oh, my.
[01:46:26]  And it, I mean, right down to where it was going down.
[01:46:32]  Oh.
[01:46:33]  And it's not, but again, I can't say that that's purely psychic phenomenon because there was so much information available that I obviously with an IQ of 160.
[01:46:47]  I'm going to pay attention to that.
[01:46:49]  You have an IQ of 160?
[01:46:50]  160, yes.
[01:46:51]  And by the way, my doctor would have you know that I still had that IQ after the surgical process as well as perfect pitch.
[01:47:01]  And I can tell you, if I take a Benadryl, I shouldn't say that, a cold preparation.
[01:47:08]  You can say that.
[01:47:08]  Sorry, you can say that.
[01:47:09]  Okay, it interferes with that process.
[01:47:12]  It does.
[01:47:13]  Yes, it does.
[01:47:14]  Now, I would like to know why this terrible insult to my brain and my body did not interfere with that process.
[01:47:22]  And again, the only way we're going to find that out is research.
[01:47:25]  Well, you know, they have, there's some really interesting research, Pam.
[01:47:31]  There have been people, believe it or not, who have had half their brains or better actually removed and they remain functional in every way.
[01:47:42]  There is so much about our brains that we don't even begin to understand.
[01:47:46]  Exactly.
[01:47:47]  And the research center over at Barrow Institute, I mean, these people are into all of that.
[01:47:53]  And they're cutting edge.
[01:47:54]  They are right on the cutting edge of everything that's going on.
[01:47:57]  But the big barrier, Pam, the big barrier, and what I cannot understand, rationalize in any scientific way known to mankind or in my own mind, is that, look, once, I mean, your heart can stop.
[01:48:10]  A little oxygen still to the brain, fine.
[01:48:13]  But when they take out all your blood, your heart stops, and then your brainwave totally goes flat line.
[01:48:20]  Right.
[01:48:20]  Then no hallucinations, no imaginations, no dreams, no anything should be occurring because that's the electrical process of the brain.
[01:48:31]  Exactly.
[01:48:32]  And we're talking about an hour in that state, Art.
[01:48:34]  Oh, I meant to say.
[01:48:35]  We're not talking about just a few minutes.
[01:48:37]  We're talking about an hour.
[01:48:38]  You were an hour?
[01:48:39]  Yes.
[01:48:40]  If you would examine my body anytime during that hour, I would be found to be dead by all clinical criteria.
[01:48:47]  So, we're not talking about something that was just a matter of a few minutes.
[01:48:51]  An hour?
[01:48:53]  Yes.
[01:48:54]  And the time that you spent gone seemed to, though there was no real relationship, what you were able to tell them later seemed to coincide with the hour?
[01:49:08]  Well, precisely.
[01:49:08]  And the way that that was documented was as I came back into the body, I was watching as they defibrillated me.
[01:49:17]  They put the paddles to my chest, and the body jerked.
[01:49:21]  And I communicated to my uncle, there's no way I'm getting in that thing.
[01:49:24]  You actually remember seeing the paddles?
[01:49:27]  Oh, sure.
[01:49:30]  Now, I know, oh, my, I know that in some cases like yours, when they put the blood back in the body, the heart will start spontaneously.
[01:49:38]  Obviously, that didn't occur in your case.
[01:49:40]  Well, it did, but I had fibrillation.
[01:49:43]  I see.
[01:49:43]  Which is a deadly condition.
[01:49:45]  Oh, of course.
[01:49:45]  And they had to know why it's the finest rhythm of the heart.
[01:49:48]  And the first time it didn't work, I would not re-enter the body.
[01:49:52]  My uncle explained to me, honey, it's like diving into a swimming pool.
[01:49:57]  Just dive in.
[01:49:58]  Do you remember any sensation when they hit the paddles the first time?
[01:50:04]  No, because I wasn't in the body.
[01:50:06]  The second time, it hurt.
[01:50:09]  I definitely remember that because I about jumped off the table.
[01:50:13]  And then I heard a line from the title cut, the Hotel California album by the Eagles.
[01:50:19]  Oh, yes.
[01:50:20]  You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.
[01:50:24]  So the first thing I said to Dr. Sorrell when I woke up was, boy, was that insensitive.
[01:50:32]  What a thing to do to a poor kid, right?
[01:50:36]  Did a lot of doctors, and it sounds like this one might be one, will play classical music while they operate?
[01:50:43]  Yes.
[01:50:44]  I'm told that Dr. Spetzler likes classical music.
[01:50:48]  And the way that the doctors explained it to me was he had left the operating theater and left me to the cardiology team to finish up and close me up.
[01:50:58]  And they began to play rock and roll, and that's what was playing.
[01:51:04]  How many people were on this team?
[01:51:06]  There must have been, for an operation of this magnitude, I bet there's quite a crowd.
[01:51:10]  I couldn't count.
[01:51:11]  They were so numerous, I just could not count.
[01:51:14]  I can tell you that they were so thick that I could barely see the body.
[01:51:18]  I saw mostly heads, the tops of heads.
[01:51:21]  Do you remember whether the movement you saw in the operating room and around you was whether people were moving at normal speed, speaking in normal speech?
[01:51:35]  Yes.
[01:51:36]  They were.
[01:51:38]  It didn't go into hyperspeed until I was out of the body and into the light or in through the tunnel close to the light.
[01:51:46]  And then everything seemed to be in.
[01:51:48]  Now, you had not mentioned a tunnel before.
[01:51:50]  You mentioned a light.
[01:51:51]  Right.
[01:51:52]  There was a tunnel.
[01:51:54]  The light was a tiny little pinpoint of light that began to pull me.
[01:51:58]  But there was a dark, I don't know how to explain this, kind of like the Wizard Boss being in the middle of a tornado.
[01:52:06]  Really?
[01:52:07]  Yeah, it was motion.
[01:52:08]  There was a lot of motion going on.
[01:52:11]  And I felt as if I was in a very fast-moving train.
[01:52:15]  I saw many things, but it was going by so quickly that I could not really slow myself down long enough to define them.
[01:52:22]  And you were racing toward that light.
[01:52:24]  Absolutely.
[01:52:25]  Yes.
[01:52:26]  You know, in an attempt to explain what you're talking about right now, a lot of neurosurgeons have said, oh, well, you know, the brain dies from the outside moving inward.
[01:52:42]  So this pinpoint of light is the very center of the brain or the last place where the neurons are firing.
[01:52:49]  And so they explain that as the tunnel and the light at the end of the tunnel.
[01:52:56]  But that's real hard to do when you don't have the brain waves.
[01:52:59]  Yes, ma'am.
[01:53:00]  So the very last bastion for the brain wave theory is that they don't believe that the equipment, the technology we have, sensitive enough to pick up the minute brain activity that may have been occurring but I am told for an hour without oxygen I don't think so.
[01:53:22]  I don't think so either, and neither do my doctors.
[01:53:26]  They feel like if that kind of hallucination would definitely have recorded, we would have seen something.
[01:53:33]  And the whole theory behind I heard what was going on in the operating room and built a picture, they put speakers in my ears that made such a loud clicking noise that I'm told if I were fully conscious, I couldn't have heard a thing.
[01:53:48]  Why would they do that?
[01:53:50]  To check my brainstem.
[01:53:52]  It was supposed to stimulate my brainstem, to try to elicit some kind of response from the brainstem and monitor it.
[01:54:01]  Really?
[01:54:02]  And that's how they're absolutely sure that there was nothing.
[01:54:04]  Any activity?
[01:54:06]  Both brains, upper and lower brain, were completely flatlined.
[01:54:10]  There was simply nothing there.
[01:54:15]  Did you, prior to the operation, agree to have 48 hours, or how did 48 hours get involved in covering what happened to you?
[01:54:25]  Well, Dr. Michael Sabaum, who has been on your show, and I'm sure you're familiar with him, wrote a book, and he investigated my case.
[01:54:34]  I was very reluctant to talk about it.
[01:54:36]  I thought that it was just one of many.
[01:54:37]  Big deal it happens to everybody.
[01:54:40]  And he said, because of the monitoring, it bore investigation.
[01:54:48]  And he went in and investigated it.
[01:54:51]  And lo and behold, learned that there were some real funny things going on here.
[01:54:56]  And as he began to release his book, of course, the news media showed up.
[01:55:03]  Prior to the operation?
[01:55:05]  No, after years after the operation.
[01:55:08]  Years after the operation.
[01:55:09]  See, I wouldn't discuss it with anyone but family, friends, and doctors up until that time.
[01:55:16]  What made you decide to suddenly go ahead and talk about it?
[01:55:21]  Well, it was put to me like death.
[01:55:23]  You have to tell because you can.
[01:55:28]  Yeah, I would have told you the same thing.
[01:55:29]  Oh, God, you've got to tell.
[01:55:31]  I think people need to be able to hear this.
[01:55:34]  Well, and not only on a spiritual level, but again, on a medical level.
[01:55:39]  Why did my brain store this information?
[01:55:42]  How did it store it, and how did it keep it when there was no activity?
[01:55:46]  If we solved that problem, we opened the door to all kinds of healing techniques, from Parkinson's to Alzheimer's to epilepsy.
[01:55:55]  You know, somebody name it.
[01:55:56]  Somebody might say, well, look, you had this experience when you were either on the way out or on the way back.
[01:56:05]  But that cannot possibly explain your ability to document what went on during the whole operation when your brain was gone.

=== Don't Be So Worried (03:37) ===

[01:56:14]  Precisely.
[01:56:16]  And also, the timing of the conversation that I heard was precise.
[01:56:21]  Was precise.
[01:56:22]  Precise with the exiting of the body.
[01:56:25]  And the visual, I'm told that they normally do not have to defibrate patients.
[01:56:30]  Right.
[01:56:31]  And I'm told that, yes, I was defibrilled, which is highly unusual.
[01:56:38]  And that would have been the end of my near-death experience and also my first heartbeat.
[01:56:43]  So, see, in that way, we can put a linear time on it in terms of this world and what was happening here.
[01:56:50]  I left at a time when there was no brain function, and I returned at a time when my body had just started to become active again.
[01:56:59]  Were you a spiritual person before this in the sense of even considering things like our environment, earth changes, what's happening in the Middle East, all of this information that was downloaded to you?
[01:57:13]  No, not really.
[01:57:14]  I'm a very clinical, analytical person.
[01:57:18]  I still am.
[01:57:19]  I believe that half of what happened to me is spiritual, and the other half is science that we just don't understand yet.
[01:57:27]  But through research, we can understand, and we will understand.
[01:57:31]  I wonder if that would be, and I've wondered about this in recent days, whether that would be a good thing.
[01:57:36]  If we conclusively, scientifically prove that consciousness not only continues, but is enhanced following physical death, what kind of effect that's going to have on the world and all the people in it.
[01:57:50]  Well, I don't see a whole lot of difference there because we're in school here, and education is very, very important.
[01:57:58]  And I believe that you have to have a certain level of education in order to move on.
[01:58:03]  In school here?
[01:58:05]  This is school.
[01:58:06]  It's just a great big, huge university that was created for us to come train.
[01:58:12]  So, um.
[01:58:12]  Well, I'm worried because at best I'm a C student.
[01:58:17]  Well, don't be so worried because we're all judged each in accordance to our own understanding.
[01:58:22]  It's not a.
[01:58:24]  There's no way to compare you to me or anybody else.
[01:58:29]  We're individuals, and we're looked at as individuals, and that actually is a thing to be rejoicing about.
[01:58:37]  Was there any indication to you that there was a place less pleasant than you were where it's possible to go?
[01:58:48]  I didn't see any how, but I can't tell you it doesn't exist just because I didn't see it.
[01:58:55]  I didn't have any sense of it.
[01:58:58]  It wasn't discussed.
[01:59:01]  But I do have a profound sense that if I don't do what's expected of me, then I will bear the consequences for that.
[01:59:10]  In much the same way as I would bear those consequences here on the earth.
[01:59:14]  Do you think part of what is expected of you is to be able to tell people about, you know, about all of this?
[01:59:22]  Was that part of it?
[01:59:23]  Yes.
[01:59:24]  However, I was warned on the other side not to come down here and start the church of the gospel, according to Pam.

=== Wow Pam: Simply Remarkable (02:47) ===

[01:59:33]  If there had been enough of that.
[01:59:36]  Another simple truth.
[01:59:37]  It's true.
[01:59:38]  There's been a lot of that, Pam.
[01:59:39]  Listen, if you'll stick around one more hour, I'll open the lines.
[01:59:42]  I'd love to be able to let people ask questions.
[01:59:45]  Great.
[01:59:46]  All right, done deal.
[01:59:47]  Stay right where you are.
[01:59:49]  Wow.
[01:59:50]  Pam Reynolds is my guest.
[01:59:52]  I'm Art Bell.
[01:59:53]  This is Coast to Coast AM.
[01:59:56]  This is Premier Networks.
[01:59:58]  That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
[02:00:30]  Somewhere in Time with Art Bell.
[02:00:33]  Continued.
[02:00:34]  Courtesy of Premier Networks.
[02:00:36]  Good morning, everybody.
[02:00:37]  An absolutely remarkable interview.
[02:00:40]  Simply remarkable.
[02:00:42]  With Pam Reynolds, who was dead for an hour.
[02:00:46]  Really dead.
[02:00:47]  No brainwaves.
[02:00:48]  No blood.
[02:00:49]  No heartbeat.
[02:00:51]  No anything.
[02:00:52]  Dead by her own doctor's definition.
[02:00:55]  Really dead.
[02:00:58]  And we're going to the phones.
[02:00:59]  If you have questions for Pam, that's what's coming next.
[02:01:22]  Once again, here's Pam Reynolds all the way from Atlanta, where, gee, in Atlanta, it must be getting to be real late.
[02:01:28]  What is it, a little after four o'clock there or something?
[02:01:31]  It's 4.10.
[02:01:33]  Uh-huh.
[02:01:35]  Hanging in there okay?
[02:01:36]  Oh, doing fine.
[02:01:37]  Well, then you must be basically pretty healthy after all of this, huh?
[02:01:40]  Reasonably.
[02:01:41]  I mean, considering the situation, I'm real healthy.
[02:01:46]  All things considered, that's right.
[02:01:47]  I guess you are real healthy.
[02:01:49]  All right, here we go, if you're ready.
[02:01:50]  I'm ready.
[02:01:51]  First time caller line, you're on the air with Pam.
[02:01:54]  Hi.
[02:01:55]  Hello, this is Joanne from Pasadena, and I have a question for Pam.
[02:02:00]  Sure.
[02:02:00]  I am a doctor of chiropractic, and I've been doing a little research on the body-mind stress relationship to health and the manifestation of illnesses in the body, and finding that virtually every one of them has some kind of negative thoughts or negative emotions behind them.

=== Breathless Dreams (15:30) ===

[02:02:17]  So, my question to you is: do you remember when you were a child ever having had the wind knocked out of you to where you were not sure you would ever get it back?
[02:02:31]  No.
[02:02:32]  I do.
[02:02:33]  I remember that.
[02:02:34]  I was punched in the stomach a few times where I thought, yeah, not possible to take a breath, if that's what you're talking about.
[02:02:41]  Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
[02:02:43]  Oh, yeah, I've been there.
[02:02:44]  And I have found three people, so that's why I ask, and I don't know if you have anyone who is alive that you could ask that question of, if when you were a child, perhaps that might have happened to you.
[02:02:56]  But I know three people who have had either aneurysms or one was cancer, in which they did live through it, but they had all the thing in common that they had had the wind knocked out of them, which means they set a negative thought up in their mind which said, I'm going to die if I do not get my breath back.
[02:03:15]  And those literal words were like an energy that was set up there.
[02:03:21]  That's what I'm postulating.
[02:03:23]  I'm going to die if I don't get my breath back.
[02:03:26]  And then it takes many years before it manifests.
[02:03:30]  With these people, it took around, you know, 20-some odd years before it manifested.
[02:03:36]  And so, anyway, that was the question.
[02:03:38]  And then I had a, so, you know, it'd be really interesting if you could find from a sister or brother or anyone else that was living if they know if that ever happened to you.
[02:03:47]  Right.
[02:03:48]  And the other comment I had was on where you went when you went out of your body.
[02:03:56]  I've done some research on that too.
[02:03:58]  I'm actually writing a book called Breaking Age Barriers, subtitle, in search of the fountain of youth.
[02:04:04]  Plug, plug, all right.
[02:04:05]  Where do you think she went?
[02:04:07]  I think she went to, well, you know, we say that she went some, we don't, we call it maybe somewhere, but I don't get she went anywhere.
[02:04:17]  I get that she went everywhere and nowhere into what is real reality.
[02:04:25]  We call the physical universe reality, but it's the physicists say it's an illusion because you have all these atoms that are filled with space.
[02:04:34]  No, no, it's listen, we'll cut it off there, but it's a very good point.
[02:04:38]  In other words, we tromping around earth doing whatever we do every day, we think of this as reality.
[02:04:45]  But the sense that I got from listening to you, Pam, was that there was a much greater reality, a much heightened sense of consciousness and reality where you were than here.
[02:04:58]  Precisely.
[02:04:59]  A lot.
[02:05:01]  It's a lot more increased.
[02:05:04]  I got the feeling coming back into the body and being there a day or two that 99% of the people around me were asleep, and the rest of us were in a profound state of shock from what we were seeing.
[02:05:19]  People sort of just like slumber.
[02:05:22]  People sort of like walking around like robots.
[02:05:24]  In a dream.
[02:05:25]  In a dream, not all that conscious.
[02:05:28]  Right.
[02:05:29]  And I think perhaps that's what Joanna is trying to say, that this is the dream.
[02:05:34]  And the real reality happens somewhere else.
[02:05:37]  And I would concur with that.
[02:05:39]  You know, that kind of makes sense, though.
[02:05:42]  If it is a better place, then there is a heightened sense of consciousness of everything, which is a joyful experience.
[02:05:50]  Right.
[02:05:52]  With me, when I had my little blast in Paris, I just, it was so overwhelming and so shocking that I blasted myself back into my body very, very quickly.
[02:06:03]  But boy, talk about an overwhelming, indescribable.
[02:06:06]  I tried to find words for it and tell my audience, and I really couldn't.
[02:06:10]  Words don't do it justice.
[02:06:12]  Right.
[02:06:13]  And the speed at which things seem to happen.
[02:06:15]  You think a thing, and there you are.
[02:06:17]  Whoosh.
[02:06:18]  In there.
[02:06:19]  Yeah.
[02:06:19]  Whoosh.
[02:06:20]  Right away, immediately.
[02:06:21]  Whoosh, right?
[02:06:22]  And I kind of got the impression that the reason we're in school in these dense bodies is because you don't give Porsches to three-year-olds because they can't ride.
[02:06:32]  Oh, that's right.
[02:06:33]  And here we are trying to learn how to operate, trying to allow our consciousness to catch up with our abilities.
[02:06:41]  Yes.
[02:06:42]  Wildcard line, you're on the air with Pam Reynolds.
[02:06:45]  Hi.
[02:06:46]  Yes.
[02:06:46]  Hi, Art.
[02:06:47]  How are you?
[02:06:47]  Okay, sir.
[02:06:48]  Hello to you, Pam, too.
[02:06:50]  My name is Adam calling from L.A.
[02:06:52]  Yeah, what struck me the most about what she said was the downloading of information.
[02:06:57]  Yes.
[02:06:57]  And how, I mean, I've been listening to your show now a couple weeks, so I'm brand new, but I heard the Sean David Morton show on the remote viewing, and a lot of what she said ties into that.
[02:07:08]  Yes.
[02:07:09]  My question was, this downloading, this like open-mindedness, Pam, is this something that's continual now?
[02:07:17]  Is this something that I think is not so much that it's continual?
[02:07:21]  I think that my brain, in this dense matter, in this slowed-down atmosphere, is taking its time processing the information.
[02:07:32]  The information, in other words, is all there.
[02:07:35]  It's just that because I'm in a much slower, dense physical environment, it's taking me longer to download it.
[02:07:43]  And some of this information then, as time goes on, is becoming more clear to you.
[02:07:47]  Exactly.
[02:07:48]  Exactly.
[02:07:49]  It seems to pop up as I need it.
[02:07:52]  That was my other question: was how clear is it?
[02:07:54]  It's like when you have a dream, when you awake immediately, you have this very vivid image of what the dream was, and then as it goes, you sort of lose it.
[02:08:02]  I guess this is the opposite.
[02:08:03]  Exactly.
[02:08:05]  It's sort of like you took a picture, and now you're able to examine the details of the picture.
[02:08:09]  And it's all as if it's happening right now.
[02:08:12]  It's not a memory of an event that happened 10 years ago.
[02:08:15]  It's an event that's ongoing.
[02:08:18]  That's really fascinating.
[02:08:20]  Yeah, it is.
[02:08:23]  Go ahead.
[02:08:23]  I'm sorry.
[02:08:24]  No.
[02:08:24]  Yeah, I was just completely floored by the similarities in what she said about her, I don't want to call them predictions so much as what she saw in her downloading and the similarities in the remote viewing that Sean was talking about.
[02:08:38]  And Daniel and others.
[02:08:40]  Yes, it completely floored me as well as I listened.
[02:08:42]  Yeah, See, that's why I believe it's physical law.
[02:08:46]  Physical law is whether or not you believe it.
[02:08:48]  And if it is, then it is the same for everyone.
[02:08:52]  The sun comes up, and the sun is the sun, whether or not you believe it.
[02:08:57]  That's right.
[02:08:57]  East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Pam Reynolds.
[02:09:00]  Hi.
[02:09:00]  Hi, Art.
[02:09:01]  This is Kathy in Oklahoma City.
[02:09:03]  How are you doing, Kathy?
[02:09:04]  Good.
[02:09:04]  And Pam, I have two questions for you.
[02:09:07]  I saw a program on television, Discovery for 48 Hours, where at the very end, you were telling your story, and you said when you met up with your relative, you felt as though you were standing in the breath of God, and it caused me to basically jump up and go, she's right, she's right.
[02:09:26]  It was just something that I knew instinctively was correct.
[02:09:28]  Do you want to talk about that a little?
[02:09:30]  Standing in the breath of God?
[02:09:32]  Yes.
[02:09:33]  As I told Art just a little while ago, when I asked the nature of the light, it was explained to me that the light was not in and of itself God, but it was what happened when he respirated.
[02:09:44]  Right.
[02:09:45]  And at that time, at that exact moment, I thought, wow, I'm standing in the breath of God.
[02:09:51]  Okay, so someone told you before you said that then?
[02:09:54]  Yes.
[02:09:55]  Well, that it was communicated to me when I was on the other side.
[02:09:58]  Wow.
[02:09:58]  Right, and I feel that that is very correct.
[02:10:01]  I don't know why, just instinctively.
[02:10:03]  My second question is, with everything that you've been through in your life, the way you were raised, and now what you've gone through, do you feel or do you know whether or not the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is relevant or important, should be paid attention to?
[02:10:20]  Well, I think everything is important to be paid attention to.
[02:10:23]  I mean, his claims that we're sinners in need of reconciliation with God and that reconciliation was done through his death.
[02:10:31]  Yeah, in other words, pretty hardcore stuff here, Pam.
[02:10:36]  In other words, is everything that we're taught, as was just laid out, was that like center stage for you in your experience or not?
[02:10:48]  No, no.
[02:10:50]  I never saw Jesus or God.
[02:10:52]  But I can tell you it's my personal belief that God is a whole lot more forgiving than we are and that we have to come to grips with ourselves and be the kind of people that we have to become what is good in our lives.
[02:11:10]  Were you ever told at all about what would be beyond where you were or just that you could not go there?
[02:11:20]  Just that I could not go there.
[02:11:23]  And the message that I got was that I probably couldn't wrap my mind around what was over there back into the body.
[02:11:34]  I think that it's just so incredible I couldn't get my mind around it.
[02:11:37]  And your sense was that there was one other level or one other place beyond where you were or many places beyond where?
[02:11:45]  Worlds within worlds.
[02:11:46]  No, I had a sense of vast, huge, different places for different people at different stages of development.
[02:11:55]  I still have that strong sense.
[02:11:58]  Some of us are, well, we're all still learning on a level.
[02:12:02]  I don't believe the educational process stops when you die.
[02:12:04]  It certainly didn't for me.
[02:12:06]  It seems to have begun.
[02:12:07]  There are many people in the world who believe in reincarnation, that souls come back to earth for another shot.
[02:12:15]  Any indication that that would or wouldn't be true?
[02:12:19]  I don't personally have any experience with reincarnation, so I cannot confirm or deny that that is or is not true.
[02:12:27]  It wasn't part of your life.
[02:12:27]  I can tell you I have a very strong sense that I'm older than the stars, and I'll probably be here long after they all burn out.
[02:12:35]  So whatever that means.
[02:12:38]  This is all post the procedure, right?
[02:12:42]  Or did you have these same feelings?
[02:12:45]  No, this is all as a direct result of what happened to me.
[02:12:49]  Oh.
[02:12:49]  All right.
[02:12:50]  West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Pam Reynolds.
[02:12:53]  Good morning.
[02:12:54]  Good morning, Art.
[02:12:55]  Hi there.
[02:12:55]  Good morning, Pam.
[02:12:56]  Good morning.
[02:12:57]  This is Kathy in Phoenix, Arizona, and I worked in a lowly position at the Barrow Neurological Institute between 1964 and 1974.
[02:13:08]  Hi, Kathy.
[02:13:10]  Your family.
[02:13:11]  Oh, well, in a way.
[02:13:13]  Uh-huh.
[02:13:14]  At the time, I'll give you a thumbnail background here to my question.
[02:13:19]  At the time, I worked right next to the research lab.
[02:13:24]  And someone somewhere offered a huge reward for anyone who could prove the existence of a soul.
[02:13:33]  And there was much research done around the world, and there was finally a book published.
[02:13:38]  And of course, no one proved anything.
[02:13:41]  But it was very interesting.
[02:13:43]  It was something that I would like to have heard more about, but never did.
[02:13:49]  But my question in that respect is, wouldn't you I didn't understand you to say that when you were out of your body, that you were actually a soul or that you were just a conscious entity of some sort.
[02:14:07]  No, I was definitely a soul.
[02:14:09]  A soul.
[02:14:09]  There were some physical properties to that soul.
[02:14:13]  Oh, not like this body, but there were definite physical properties and sensations.
[02:14:21]  But this was something, if I understand correctly, that you sensed more than you saw.
[02:14:27]  In other words, people, I'm told people who lose their arm still have the exact feeling that their arm is there, right?
[02:14:33]  Right.
[02:14:34]  Right.
[02:14:35]  In that sense?
[02:14:36]  Well, more than that, it is as if every cell of my body contained my sensory abilities.
[02:14:43]  Instead of seeing with the eyes, I saw with every cell, every piece of essence of myself provided that vision.
[02:14:54]  Well, don't you think that I don't remember when first the OBEs came around, but prior to listening to Art Bell, I had never heard of them before.
[02:15:09]  And I was wondering if this is a new phenomenon or if it's something that is old as the hills.
[02:15:16]  You know, I couldn't answer that question.
[02:15:18]  I'm not really a student of these things.
[02:15:21]  I'm just a poor innocent bystander as it happened to.
[02:15:28]  Well, my feeling is that these OBEs do definitely prove that there is a soul.
[02:15:35]  I think so, too.
[02:15:36]  Whatever the purpose of that soul is.
[02:15:39]  What we're hearing this morning from Pam really does sound like pretty solid proof to me.
[02:15:44]  Absolutely.
[02:15:45]  I'm sitting here trying to decide how to knock holes in it, but she was able to articulate what went on during the operation.
[02:15:54]  That's impossible.
[02:15:55]  I mean, that's absolutely flat impossible.
[02:15:58]  Her heart was stopped.
[02:15:58]  Her blood was gone.
[02:15:59]  Her brainwaves were zip.
[02:16:01]  So that's impossible.
[02:16:03]  Did you, Pam, did you discuss any of this soul business or what you actually were when you were out of the body with your doctor?
[02:16:11]  Not at great length.
[02:16:13]  I was, to tell you the truth, I treated it with a great deal of humor, assuming that everyone did that.
[02:16:19]  And of course, he knew all about it.
[02:16:21]  Oh, he did.
[02:16:23]  Well, I thought he did, but apparently this was a very unusual case.
[02:16:28]  And, of course, at a time when my body was in such a state of shock and that terrible shock had gone on, he was real interested in saving my life.
[02:16:39]  So he didn't spend a lot of time discussing the fine points.
[02:16:45]  But Pam, when you told him what you told him, and you said you told him almost immediately afterwards.
[02:16:51]  Right.
[02:16:52]  Did you have the sense that even though an eyebrow went up, you said, did you have the sense that he'd heard some of these stories before?
[02:17:01]  I didn't get the sense that he hadn't.
[02:17:03]  I got the sense that he believed me totally and completely immediately.
[02:17:09]  And I have no way of knowing why he believed me, other than, like I said, I assumed that his being in touch with life and death every day, I assumed that this was a common occurrence and would later find out on no contraire.
[02:17:28]  Not with this operation.
[02:17:30]  Anything else, Caller?
[02:17:31]  No, I thank you very much, both of you.

=== Pam Reynolds' Astonishing Discovery (15:50) ===

[02:17:33]  Amazing.
[02:17:35]  Thank you.
[02:17:35]  Do you still follow up?
[02:17:37]  Does this doctor stay in touch with you at all?
[02:17:41]  Well, yes, I do see him.
[02:17:42]  I just saw him last time I saw him, let's see, it was a year ago, November.
[02:17:47]  Well, do me a favor.
[02:17:48]  Next time you see him, tell him I would like to speak with him.
[02:17:52]  Would you?
[02:17:53]  I'd love to.
[02:17:53]  As a matter of fact, you know, Barrow Institute does have a foundation, and we do whatever we can to raise money for ongoing research.
[02:18:02]  All right.
[02:18:02]  I'm sure.
[02:18:03]  Well, that would give him a great reason to be here, wouldn't it?
[02:18:06]  Right.
[02:18:07]  I'm sure we could talk some of these guys into coming and spending some time with you.
[02:18:10]  All right, let's do that.
[02:18:12]  By all means, all right.
[02:18:13]  Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
[02:18:19]  This is one for the books, folks.
[02:18:21]  So we're making love.
[02:18:25]  I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
[02:18:28]  This is Premier Networks.
[02:18:30]  That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
[02:19:01]  You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
[02:19:05]  Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 1st, 2002.
[02:19:10]  Really dead and gone for an hour.
[02:19:12]  A full hour.
[02:19:13]  No brainwaves, no blood, no heartbeat.
[02:19:16]  Nothing.
[02:19:17]  Gone.
[02:19:19]  And yet, she was there.
[02:19:21]  My guest is Pam Reynolds, and we've got another segment coming up immediately.
[02:19:26]  right where you are once again Pam Reynolds and And Pam, explain what the Barrow Institute is.
[02:19:53]  What can you tell me about that?
[02:19:54]  The Barrow Institute is a full-service neurology institute.
[02:19:59]  They do an awful lot of work with the brain.
[02:20:02]  The foundation supports, for instance, the Muhammad Ali Parkinson's research.
[02:20:07]  Yes.
[02:20:08]  Research on epilepsy, anything and everything having to do with the brain.
[02:20:12]  Okay.
[02:20:13]  I have a number here, too.
[02:20:15]  So do I. Somebody passed it on to me.
[02:20:17]  Oh, great.
[02:20:17]  Would that number happen to be 1-800-475-7161?
[02:20:24]  Perfect.
[02:20:25]  Thank you.
[02:20:26]  Really.
[02:20:26]  Or for those who want to contribute online, they can go to my website at pamreynolds.com.
[02:20:32]  Click on a message from Pam, and that will give you a link that'll take you directly to the contribution page.
[02:20:38]  Well, let me see.
[02:20:39]  Do we have pamreynolds.com up there?
[02:20:42]  No, we don't.
[02:20:44]  Well, we do have an angiogram image letter document.
[02:20:50]  Oh, no, we do.
[02:20:51]  We have www.near-death.com, Reynolds.html.
[02:20:57]  That's an article that was written by an independent NDE.
[02:21:01]  Oh, my God.
[02:21:02]  My website is PamReynolds.com.
[02:21:05]  Pam, I'm looking at the angiogram.
[02:21:09]  I should have done this.
[02:21:10]  Oh, my God.
[02:21:12]  That was it, huh?
[02:21:14]  That was it.
[02:21:15]  Can you imagine a thing like that exploding?
[02:21:19]  Oh, my gosh.
[02:21:21]  Folks, if you want to see this, this is astounding to see.
[02:21:25]  Go to my website, artbell.com.
[02:21:28]  Under program, click on tonight's guest info, and then click on angiogram image.
[02:21:35]  And first of all, Pam, the first comment I would have is, how could a blood vessel that relatively thin produce something that big without killing you first?
[02:21:48]  Well, that was no vessel.
[02:21:49]  That was an artery.
[02:21:51]  I know, but its relative size in the angiogram is clear compared to the balloon size.
[02:21:57]  Absolutely.
[02:21:59]  Yes, it's a wonder that I survived long enough to be a beneficiary of this remarkable surgery.
[02:22:05]  I would think any jarring of the head would have killed you.
[02:22:08]  Exactly.
[02:22:09]  The slightest hat.
[02:22:12]  Smokes.
[02:22:13]  Oh, this is just a remarkable image.
[02:22:16]  People are going to have to get up to the website and see it.
[02:22:18]  Yeah?
[02:22:19]  Okay.
[02:22:20]  If people call the Barrow Institute, they can, what?
[02:22:23]  The idea is to contribute or to become part of something?
[02:22:27]  Yes, the idea is we have people manning the phones to take contributions for the foundation, and the foundation does fund research.
[02:22:37]  Okay.
[02:22:38]  The ongoing research, which has to do with all kinds of things, Parkinson's disease, epilepsy, it has to do with the brain.
[02:22:44]  They're researching it.
[02:22:46]  And they are on the cutting edge.
[02:22:48]  You can look at my case in cases like mine to know that.
[02:22:51]  As a matter of fact, your case was one of the earliest ones ever, but I understand there have been about 100, which really isn't that many since.
[02:22:58]  I mean, yours was 10 years ago, so 100 since yours, huh?
[02:23:02]  Right.
[02:23:02]  Very successful surgeries, I might add.
[02:23:05]  And people have been returned to relatively normal lives.
[02:23:08]  If they find it.
[02:23:10]  Mm-hmm.
[02:23:12]  You're going to write a book.
[02:23:13]  You're writing a book?
[02:23:14]  Yes, I am.
[02:23:15]  My book will be available for presentation early in 2002, January, February.
[02:23:21]  What are you going to call it?
[02:23:24]  I'm not sure yet.
[02:23:26]  I'm thinking 15 seconds that changed my life.
[02:23:32]  That'd be good.
[02:23:35]  Or maybe death experience.
[02:23:36]  Yeah, you probably want a title that pretty much says what happened to you.
[02:23:43]  Somehow or another.
[02:23:45]  As best you can come up with it.
[02:23:46]  I'm sure you'll get lots of suggestions for titles.
[02:23:49]  But we'll get, you say it's PamReynolds.com.
[02:23:52]  Mm-hmm.
[02:23:53]  Okay, Keith, are you listening?
[02:23:54]  PamReynolds.com, if you'd get that link up, please.
[02:23:57]  Okay, to the phones very quickly.
[02:24:00]  Wildcard line, you're on the air with Pam Reynolds.
[02:24:02]  Hi.
[02:24:03]  Hello.
[02:24:04]  Hello.
[02:24:05]  Hi.
[02:24:05]  Yes, ma'am.
[02:24:06]  I'm calling from Anchorage, Alaska.
[02:24:09]  My name is Stephanie.
[02:24:10]  Hi.
[02:24:11]  First, I want to say thanks to you, Art, for doing stuff like this because it is so beneficial to so many of us who are going through stuff like this.
[02:24:22]  It's so important that people like us are reached out to us because we feel so alone at times.
[02:24:34]  And I'm really jealous of Ramona because she got to you before I did.
[02:24:42]  Second of all, I was in a car accident in 1969.
[02:24:50]  And I was pronounced dead on the scene.
[02:24:56]  And they brought me back to life.
[02:24:58]  They took me to JFK Hospital, the same place that they found the anthrax place.
[02:25:05]  Oh, yeah.
[02:25:06]  And they brought me back to life.
[02:25:10]  And they kept me.
[02:25:11]  I was in a coma, and I got transferred to another hospital, 14 years old.
[02:25:20]  But during my coma of two weeks, I got to see Jesus and my dad, who died when I was nine.
[02:25:29]  And they told me my work was not done here.
[02:25:33]  And I have given birth to six children.
[02:25:39]  Oh, my.
[02:25:40]  Good for you.
[02:25:42]  They were sure right about the work not being done.
[02:25:44]  Yeah, the work not being done.
[02:25:47]  I have two sons serving in the military right now.
[02:25:51]  One's off the coast of Pakistan.
[02:25:54]  I hope he hears me now.
[02:25:57]  But, I mean, and then the son that, the other son, not serving in, he's in the Army.
[02:26:12]  God bless us all.
[02:26:15]  Because this child was diagnosed 10 years ago with cancer.
[02:26:20]  Brain cancer.
[02:26:22]  Oh, boy.
[02:26:22]  And it's temporal lobe.
[02:26:25]  And they did brain surgery.
[02:26:28]  They got it.
[02:26:30]  And he wanted to serve it.
[02:26:31]  And he left me a year ago in October.
[02:26:36]  Well, that's a remarkable story.
[02:26:40]  We're talking to an awful lot of lucky people tonight.
[02:26:45]  Most people who end up with brain cancer or an embolism like I'm looking at right now on the screen, aye, they don't make it.
[02:26:56]  So we have to depend on so few like you, Pam, who have been there and have been back.
[02:27:02]  I've always been interested, fascinated with near-death experiences, but yours goes way beyond.
[02:27:10]  And there's almost no way to deny the obvious.
[02:27:17]  If there is a way, I can't find it.
[02:27:18]  Neither can many, many, many researchers who have given it their best try for 10 years.
[02:27:24]  And you've thought, I'm sure, heavily about this since, trying to shoot holes in it yourself.
[02:27:30]  Exactly.
[02:27:31]  And the reason I waited so long to come out with a book myself is because I wanted to give science every opportunity to explain this thing.
[02:27:39]  Well, if I manage to get your doctor on the air and I ask him, what can you tell me about her ability to describe what went on during the operation in the period of time when she had absolutely no brain waves whatsoever?
[02:27:58]  How can you rationalize, how have you rationalized that?
[02:28:00]  How can you explain it?
[02:28:01]  What do you think he would say?
[02:28:03]  Well, if I know Dr. Spetzler, he would say there are so many things about the brain that we do not understand, but a lot of these things are knowable.
[02:28:15]  And we're right in the middle of doing an awful lot of relevant research to find out about the brain and how it functions.
[02:28:22]  And hopefully we'll be able to unlock the door to some of these answers.
[02:28:26]  Well, I wonder.
[02:28:27]  I mean, the brain is one thing, and many people feel the soul or the spirit, they may be separate or the same, are altogether something else, and maybe they cannot know about that or will not know about that.
[02:28:43]  Who knows?
[02:28:44]  But I know they are making progress, so maybe they can be answered.
[02:28:47]  I have a theory about that.
[02:28:49]  I believe that the soul plugs into the brain.
[02:28:53]  I believe that there is a symbiotic relationship between the soul and the brain.
[02:28:57]  I don't think we'll ever really fully understand the nature of the soul on a physical level.
[02:29:02]  But I do believe that the brain is knowable.
[02:29:05]  These are things that we can research and understand and find out, and we can use to benefit humanity and cure disease and end suffering.
[02:29:13]  And I think if nothing else comes out of my story.
[02:29:17]  So the soul might be like a Netscape plug-in.
[02:29:20]  There you go.
[02:29:22]  That's a very good analogy.
[02:29:25]  Well, I don't know about that.
[02:29:26]  East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Pam.
[02:29:28]  Hi.
[02:29:29]  Pam?
[02:29:30]  Yes.
[02:29:31]  Hi.
[02:29:31]  Hi, Arch.
[02:29:32]  Hi, sir.
[02:29:32]  Hey, I'd like to ask a question, if possible.
[02:29:36]  You say you were out for the operation for an hour.
[02:29:40]  Yeah.
[02:29:41]  Approximately how long, or if they told you, how long were you in recovery before you were actually able to speak again?
[02:29:50]  I spoke immediately.
[02:29:51]  Immediately?
[02:29:52]  Mm-hmm.
[02:29:53]  Did the doctor?
[02:29:54]  Did the doctor explain to you how they resuscitated your brain and you didn't have any memory loss at all?
[02:30:01]  No, they didn't explain anything to me, but I didn't have any memory loss at all.
[02:30:05]  That's amazing.
[02:30:06]  No memory loss, no loss in IQ, no loss in mental function.
[02:30:10]  That is amazing.
[02:30:11]  I mean, that's just amazing.
[02:30:13]  Even my pitch remained perfect.
[02:30:15]  That is absolutely astounding.
[02:30:17]  Mm-hmm.
[02:30:18]  All right, sir.
[02:30:19]  Thank you very much.
[02:30:19]  Bye-bye.
[02:30:20]  Thank you for the call.
[02:30:21]  West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Pam Reynolds.
[02:30:23]  Hi.
[02:30:24]  Hi, this is Gary from Redmond.
[02:30:26]  Art, thank you for a most extraordinary interview.
[02:30:28]  You're very welcome.
[02:30:29]  Pam, I must congratulate you.
[02:30:31]  I think you have tremendous strength and courage, and I thank you for coming back to tell us your story.
[02:30:36]  Thank you, Gary.
[02:30:37]  I'm impressed by the fact you mentioned the year 2012.
[02:30:41]  And as Art knows, late grades, Terrence McCann, I thought there would be a change of consciousness.
[02:30:46]  I'm wondering what else you could tell us about how you arrived at that date.
[02:30:49]  What else you think mankind should do to prepare for what's coming and how we might survive it and what this consciousness change might mean for us?
[02:30:58]  I can't tell you reasonably how I arrived at that date.
[02:31:01]  It's just something that's in me that I know, as if it were engraved in stone and I read it.
[02:31:06]  Do you recall whether this was something you immediately recalled or did this come to you in the last few years?
[02:31:13]  No, that was pretty immediate.
[02:31:15]  Immediate.
[02:31:15]  Mm-hmm.
[02:31:16]  It's pretty immediate that we would have some huge changes around that time.
[02:31:21]  And now I tell people, and it's the truth, I'm in a time warp.
[02:31:26]  Time really doesn't have any meaning for me.
[02:31:29]  So the mere fact that the number stayed with me to me is amazing.
[02:31:37]  There you are, Caller.
[02:31:38]  Do you have any idea what this might mean for us on the other side of this change?
[02:31:46]  It means what we make it mean.
[02:31:49]  The future is an X variable.
[02:31:52]  It's undefined in as much as it's going to be what we make it.
[02:31:57]  We can say for a certainty that if we do this, this will happen.
[02:32:01]  But I think the reason people like me are given understanding like this is so that we can prepare and make those changes.
[02:32:08]  And on the upside, what I'm seeing in our government right now and in the unity of our people right now is uplifting and it helps me sleep at night.
[02:32:20]  And I really feel like we're on the right direction to surviving whatever comes at us.
[02:32:25]  It might not be so in other countries, but as for America and our citizens, I think we are really getting it.
[02:32:34]  We're coming together for the first time in a long time.
[02:32:37]  We're standing together in all of our diversity and individuality.
[02:32:41]  We're putting aside our differences and we're standing together for the benefit of our people.
[02:32:46]  Well, that's a good thing because you apparently see some travails ahead.
[02:32:50]  I definitely do, but I think we're going to make it.
[02:32:53]  Anything?
[02:32:53]  We're going to be fine.
[02:32:54]  All right.
[02:32:55]  Anything else, Color?
[02:32:56]  Let's hope that's a great opportunity for the whole world.
[02:32:58]  Yes, sir.
[02:32:59]  Thank you very much, and take care.
[02:33:01]  First time caller line, you're on the air with Pam.
[02:33:04]  Hello, Art.
[02:33:05]  Hello.
[02:33:06]  Hello, Pam.
[02:33:06]  Thanks for taking my call.

=== Lost in Darkness (05:39) ===

[02:33:08]  I've got a couple questions here for you, Pam, and they're real quick.
[02:33:11]  I'll go ahead and ask them and then hang up and listen.
[02:33:13]  That's okay.
[02:33:15]  You said that you weren't afraid before you went in the operation.
[02:33:18]  You weren't afraid to die, but what you were afraid of was leaving your children behind?
[02:33:23]  Yes.
[02:33:25]  When you were on the other side, did you have any feelings of remorse or sadness or anything like that that you were leaving your children behind at that time?
[02:33:36]  No.
[02:33:37]  Mm-mm.
[02:33:38]  As a matter of fact, when I came back to the body, I'd completely changed my mind.
[02:33:42]  I looked at that body and I thought, you know what?
[02:33:44]  My kids are going to do fine.
[02:33:46]  I'm not getting in that thing.
[02:33:50]  So it's more of a hope and more of a positive type of attitude towards your children.
[02:33:54]  Absolutely.
[02:33:56]  Absolutely.
[02:33:57]  Another thing, did you happen to have any feelings of that things that you had left things undone here in this light on the other side?
[02:34:08]  Yes, I did.
[02:34:09]  Ah.
[02:34:11]  Huh.
[02:34:12]  All right.
[02:34:12]  Well, that probably went along with you can't go any further than this.
[02:34:16]  Probably.
[02:34:16]  I feel like the decision to return was made before I ever went in the first place.
[02:34:21]  All right, caller, thank you.
[02:34:22]  Thank you.
[02:34:23]  Take care.
[02:34:24]  Wildcard line, you're on the air with Pam Reynolds.
[02:34:26]  Hello.
[02:34:27]  How you doing, Art, Pam?
[02:34:29]  A couple quick questions.
[02:34:30]  Well, actually, just one quick question.
[02:34:32]  Pam, did you ever have a sense of animals like lost pets, pets that you might have lost in your lifetime?
[02:34:39]  You know, made me answer that question, do animals have souls?
[02:34:42]  That's a real good question.
[02:34:43]  I did not see Tiger.
[02:34:45]  I lost my puppy from my childhood after I was married.
[02:34:49]  He lived a long time.
[02:34:50]  I didn't see him.
[02:34:52]  But to be honest with you, I wasn't really thinking about him or expecting to see him.
[02:34:59]  So I can't really answer that question, yay or nay.
[02:35:04]  Well, it's my feeling, my gut feeling is they must.
[02:35:08]  It's kind of a qualified nay.
[02:35:09]  But you think that you think animals do probably have souls then?
[02:35:14]  I think so.
[02:35:15]  I think anyone who's had a beloved pet can concur with that.
[02:35:19]  And I do.
[02:35:20]  Mm-hmm.
[02:35:22]  All right.
[02:35:22]  East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Pam Reynolds.
[02:35:24]  Where are you, please?
[02:35:26]  Hello.
[02:35:27]  Hello.
[02:35:28]  Hey, this is Mike.
[02:35:29]  I'm calling from Austin, Texas.
[02:35:32]  Okay.
[02:35:32]  Hey, Art, I love your show, man.
[02:35:34]  Thank you.
[02:35:35]  You've filled many nights with great entertainment.
[02:35:39]  And I just want to say I've had a lot of strange experiences in my life.
[02:35:44]  And I've been diagnosed as schizophrenic.
[02:35:49]  But right now I'm on antidepressants.
[02:35:51]  And I've kind of experienced everything you've talked about, Pam.
[02:35:57]  And a couple months' time, I had a lot of sleep deprivation, and I felt like remote viewers were communicating with me and following me around.
[02:36:07]  And I about lost my mind, but I didn't.
[02:36:09]  And I'm pretty much normal now.
[02:36:11]  I'm on antidepressants.
[02:36:13]  And I feel the next level that you were going to go to after, you know, you were saying there was more to be seen is that you kind of said it yourself when you said yourselves sensed everything.
[02:36:28]  You sensed everything.
[02:36:29]  Remember that?
[02:36:30]  I feel like pretty much that we will find ourselves alone in the darkness and we will be God and then create our own universe.
[02:36:40]  Well, you know, I want to say something about what he just said.
[02:36:46]  He was in another place, obviously, and we have concocted drugs to bring people back to what we call normal.
[02:36:59]  But, you know.
[02:37:00]  Whatever that is.
[02:37:01]  Yeah, whatever that is.
[02:37:03]  That's right.
[02:37:03]  But we're the ones setting up this measuring stick for what normal is, and we have concocted the drugs that will drag somebody back to that point.
[02:37:13]  I'm just, I'm not so sure about this word normal, are you?
[02:37:17]  I'm not at all.
[02:37:18]  No.
[02:37:19]  I think normal is a huge variable.
[02:37:21]  Because all of it, we're not cookie-cutter people.
[02:37:25]  We are each and every one of us individual, and each and every one of us have our own place.
[02:37:30]  Yes.
[02:37:31]  And it's our responsibility to fill that thing that we were here for.
[02:37:36]  And it's not, God didn't take a cookie cutter when he made us.
[02:37:40]  And there's got to be a reason for that.
[02:37:42]  There has to be.
[02:37:44]  That's pretty comforting.
[02:37:45]  This whole thing, this entire program has been really comforting to do it with you.
[02:37:51]  Pam, and I have a feeling a lot of other people will feel the same way.
[02:37:55]  When your book comes out, you know, most people won't come on the air with this sort of thing until they actually are in the business of promoting their book.
[02:38:04]  So when your book does come out, you be really sure and call me, get a hold of me, and I will have you back on the air.
[02:38:13]  Would you do that?
[02:38:14]  Yes, sir.
[02:38:14]  We would love to do that.
[02:38:17]  All right.
[02:38:17]  Well, it's been the most incredible interview of its type that I've ever done, Pam.
[02:38:23]  And it's been nothing but a pleasure for us as well.
[02:38:25]  Art, thanks so much for having us.
[02:38:27]  Thank you, and good night.
[02:38:28]  Good night, dear.

=== Special Line Suggestion (00:23) ===

[02:38:36]  Well, that certainly ought to give you all a little something to think about, hmm?
[02:38:45]  Open lines tomorrow night.
[02:38:49]  Maybe a special line, if you suggest one, I don't know.
[02:38:53]  For now, from the high desert, I'm Art Bell.