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Jan. 31, 2002 - Art Bell

01:47:12

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Hollow Planets - Jan Lamprecht

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	Good morning.
	This is going to be interesting.
	This is going to be about the hollower.
	Now, I didn't realize until I began to dial the phone number.
	I thought, I looked at it and thought, hey boy, is that a long phone number or what?
	That's weird.
	Well, the reason it's weird is because my guest, Jan Lambert, is in South Africa.
	That's where we're calling South Africa.
	To be specific, Johannesburg, South Africa.
	So, that's, uh, That's very interesting.
	He's online right now.
	Yon Lombrick was born in Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe.
	Grew up on a farm during a fierce bush war.
	Seems like they're always going on.
	This was during a time of rebellion against England and total world sanctions against Rhodesia.
	Ah, yes.
	Upon leaving school, he moved to South Africa where he spent a short time in the South African Navy.
	Yon has been involved with computer programming, consulting and so forth for the last 20 years.
	Always had an intense interest in UFOs, prophecy and the paranormal.
	His first contact with the hollow planets idea was a result of reading a book in the 1970s entitled Our Mysterious Spaceship Moon.
	It made a deep impression on him in 1992 as a result of his computer work and his need for software support from the USA.
	Jan joined CompuServe.
	Really?
	In 1996, his fascination in hollow planets ...was renewed and started to apply his computer analysis skills to the subject for the next three years.
	He engaged in his feasibility study of possible hollow worlds and thus came the book Hollow Planets.
	In 2001, he planned to write an Arctic Mysteries.
	...book, a follow-up book about the Arctic and the hollower, but the severe political problems in Zimbabwe to the north of South Africa and its possible effects on South Africa caused him to postpone his Arctic book and instead write a political book called Government by Deception, which is due out here in the USA in March or April of 2002.
	Well, all governments are by deception.
	It's just a matter of degree.
	At any rate, from Johannesburg, South Africa, it's an incredible place.
	I've been there a few years ago.
	My wife and I went to Johannesburg and a lot of other places in Africa.
	And I'll tell you, it's as far away, basically, as you can go from where I am without starting back.
	You know, on the other side of the world, it is as far away as you can go without starting back.
	That's how far away it is.
	It's the only way to describe how far it is.
	The exact, almost opposite side of the Earth.
	Not precise, but pretty doggone close.
	And going there is a real experience.
	I mean, you get on a 747 and you live on the 747 for 24 hours.
	It's a really, really, really long, long, longest flight I ever took.
	24 hours on a 747.
	From the front they made the chairs into beds and you got to sleep.
	You had to sleep.
	So it's a long way away.
	In a moment, we go to Johannesburg, South Africa.
	Let's see if we can do it.
	Bye.
	All the way to Johannesburg, South Africa, and Jan Levert.
	Jan, welcome to the program.
	Hi there, Art.
	Nice to be on the show.
	It's absolutely amazing Frankly, to be able to speak to you as far away as you are, and as I was telling the audience, you seem to be about as far away from me as you can be, or me from you, without having to start back in the other direction.
	Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
	It's almost exactly on the other side of the Earth.
	Judging by time zones, it is almost there.
	Well, that's amazing.
	What time and day is it there, pray tell?
	It's now nine o'clock in the morning.
	It's 11.15 here at night.
	So how is it?
	Sun is out.
	Beautiful day.
	Birds singing.
	What's it like there?
	Actually not.
	It's cloudy and overcast.
	That's not normal for Janusburg.
	Normally it's sunny and warm.
	Normally, right.
	Weather is changing all over the place.
	It's a very interesting time we live in.
	Yeah.
	All my life, and since I've done programs like this, Jan, people have been telling me that there are people who believe that the world that we live on actually may be hollow.
	And a lot of times people like this are laughed at, I think.
	But I know that there are a very serious group, and I think you're one of them, that believe this may be true.
	Could it really be true?
	Well, this is the question that was on my mind, and that was why Why I read a lot of old stuff.
	I started off by reading all the old books and there's a lot of them and this thing goes back all the way to Sir Edmund Halley and it's a fascinating idea and a lot of the concepts that became what you might call traditional Hollow Earth come from Sir Edmund Halley.
	The idea of a planet with a thin shell and a planet with a huge hole at both ends and all that sort of thing.
	Most of those ideas came from him 300 years ago but You know, there's obviously a lot that we've learned since then, and what brought me back to it was that book, Our Mysterious Spaceship Moon, because it started talking about the Apollo 12 seismic experiment where they crashed part of a rocket into the moon, and then some scientists said that
	The moon is ringing like a bell, and that sort of thing.
	Yeah, I know that's exactly... Now that you mention that, you're exactly right.
	They said it's ringing like a bell, that the shockwave went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, just like a bell.
	Those were their words.
	You're right.
	And you know what?
	There was a quote from a scientist, an American scientist at the time, who said that this is almost as if the moon were a hollow titanium ball.
	And of course, afterwards, The scientists kick in and then they say, nah, it's not really so.
	You can explain it in this way and that way.
	And so the whole idea just sort of faded away.
	But what got me interested was, as you mentioned earlier, I've always had an interest in the paranormal and the weird and that sort of thing.
	And I like to think that I'm an open-minded person, that I don't just reject ideas just because an idea seems to be nonsensical at first.
	I like to sit down and have a think about it and so forth.
	And when I wrote my book and when I did my study, because the subtitle to my book is a feasibility study of possible hollow worlds.
	And that was the whole point of the exercise was to say, let's do a lateral thinking exercise.
	Let's jump out of this rut that we are in.
	Let's jump into another thought pattern and say to ourselves, what if?
	Could a planet be hollow?
	And of course, the first thing you must realize is if the world were really hollow, and nobody knows about it, then it can only mean one thing,
	it can only mean that there's a cover-up of some kind.
	So when I started this study of mine, it was in an open-minded way and saying to myself,
	I am open to the possibility of conspiracies and I think there can't be many people alive
	today unless they're brain dead who don't believe in some kind of conspiracy somewhere
	Jan, we were just talking about conspiracies in the hour before you got on the air.
	Believe me, plenty of people here believe in conspiracies.
	Just one little note for you, and I also mentioned this in the first hour, there is a very interesting Issue of the Journal of Science, very well respected.
	A couple of archaeologists report finding two stones near the mouth of a small seaside Blomas cave in South Africa, there where you are.
	And what they say about this is pretty interesting.
	They say that if this is correct, then the time when they thought man came to Earth, well, they could be wrong by as much as 40,000 40,000 years, John, so what the scientists think, you know, Tuesday is not necessarily what they think Wednesday, and they're not missing it by a little, they're missing it by a lot.
	That is an excellent point, and that kind of thinking is very, very important to this.
	You know, people think, oh well, we have solid Earth, we know this about gravity, we know that about the magnetic field.
	The point you make is so true.
	In one day they could discover one fact and that could change and have such a ripple effect on all of physics.
	Tomorrow they can make a discovery about gravity and that can change every book on physics would have to be rewritten.
	So small things can make a big difference and my experience in the computer industry and with logic You've got to be so careful with logic.
	You've got to draw a line between what you say you know for sure and what you think the evidence points to.
	If you're looking inside the Earth, for example, we know more about the surface of Pluto than we know about what lies 20 miles underneath the Earth.
	It's as simple as that.
	We have never extracted so much as one grain of sand below 20 or 22 miles of the earth.
	So, you know, you have to look at what we arrive at by extrapolation, by theory, versus what we physically have in our hand.
	Alright, well, let's try it piece by piece then.
	I will assume that you think that there is at least the possibility of the Earth being hollow.
	If the Earth is hollow, let's explore a few questions.
	People would say, first of all, okay then, where does this lava... I mean, we see these volcanoes explode, one in Washington not long ago, and all this lava comes flying out.
	The solid material rocks and lava and all the rest of it come flying out, that would indicate something fairly solid down there somewhere.
	Yes.
	Well, you see, one of the most interesting misconceptions that all of us have, when we've been to school, is we come out of school and we immediately imagine that the Earth is composed largely of this ball of lava.
	But if you actually go into a scientific text, And you see, what do they exactly know and what do they say they have discovered?
	Then you realize that the Earth is actually solid and rigid.
	And the important term here is rigid.
	Because seismic waves, when there's an earthquake and seismic waves move out in all directions, we know that those seismic waves reach virtually every part of the Earth, including the opposite side of the Earth where the earthquake took place.
	Now, there are different types of seismic waves, but in short, the fact that they travel everywhere tells us that the Earth is basically rigid like a rock.
	And what happens is, where this lava misconception comes from is deep inside the Earth.
	Deep inside the Earth, the pressures increase to such a degree that rock starts to flow.
	But it only flows because of tremendous pressures.
	But that still doesn't mean it's a liquid.
	And in fact, scientists tell you, and scientific texts will tell you, that lava is a surface phenomena.
	The lava that actually comes out of a volcano is caused by stresses right here in the upper crust of the Earth.
	And there is no lava that comes from deeper than 20 miles.
	And another fact about lava is that most lava is slightly radioactive.
	This is where a lot of their dating comes from.
	And this radioactivity is caused, believe it or not, by decaying uranium and radium.
	In other words, there is radioactive material in the upper crust of the Earth, and this is causing heat, and that's where your lava is coming from.
	All right, and you say 20 miles, right?
	You said 20 miles.
	20 miles is not much.
	Well, how far have we drilled into the Earth?
	I've heard reports of the Russians going That we went 30,000 feet, maybe, and the Russians have gone farther than that, but not much farther.
	So, do you know how far we've gone into the Earth?
	The last I remember reading was, I think the Russians reached about 20 miles or something like that.
	And that was up in the Arctic, up on the Kola Peninsula.
	So, I mean, in one spot of the Earth, we have drilled one little hole 20 miles deep, and nobody else is coming, and nobody else is so past that.
	All right, well, way beyond 20 miles, 100 miles, 200 miles, 300 miles, what do we know about those areas?
	I mean, what do we really know?
	The only way we really can tell things about the inner earth is seismology, on the one hand.
	And the other thing, a newer technique is the use of microwaves I believe but I haven't seen all that much material about that though I'm looking for stuff about that and there's a specific reason why.
	But for the most part, everything else we know is based on seismology and then again you must keep in mind that all our seismology is based on the fact that our instruments are sitting on the outside of the earth.
	Right.
	And we measure it on a seismograph, say, here in South Africa.
	All we know is the earthquake took place on this time, and the seismic wave arrived here at that time.
	And we can tell a little bit about the sort of vertical and horizontal components of that wave, but we can't tell that much.
	So all we know is that this wave took so many minutes to get from A to B, We roughly have an idea of the angle at which it's arrived, but we can't tell exactly the path that it took inside the Earth.
	That is actually where this thing becomes very interesting.
	In other words, it could have taken a path that would be 20 miles deep, or it could have come straight through, or it could have been a gradient in between.
	We don't really know how it got from A to B. Exactly.
	Exactly.
	Now, the only way that they know, you see, what happens is scientists go through a series of steps before they arrive at their answer.
	And the steps they begin with is right back at a thing called gravity.
	But now, just before we touch on gravity, the point I need to make is, just to elaborate a bit more on what you've said there, is that you don't know the path.
	As far as I know, I don't think scientists have ever sat down and said to themselves, we will now take all this data that we have from these different earthquakes, and I mean they have hundreds of thousands of incidents to work with.
	I doubt that any scientist has ever sat down And taken that and said, OK, let's try different models and try this model and that model and this model and that model and see how the data that we have fits in with different theory.
	I don't think they've ever done that.
	My understanding is that they jumped straight off to a certain idea and started from that point.
	And they said, well, this might be the way to go.
	So let's go this way.
	And I don't think they've examined other possibilities.
	Well, that's why I read you the story about the, oh now today we know man might be 40,000 years older than we thought, story.
	You know, these are the things on the surface that we can examine, and now you and I are talking about something that really they cannot examine, they are only virtually guessing at, based on somebody's original concept, like a myth that's been with us all this time.
	Is that sort of right?
	That's right, that's right.
	All right, we've got to take a break here, because we're at the bottom of the hour.
	But when we get back, I want to talk about gravity, because that's really, really, really interesting.
	The whole subject of gravity is interesting because that's another thing that scientists don't fully understand.
	Half of the scientists that I talk to think that we're being pulled to Earth, that the mass of the Earth creates the gravity, you know, because it's a big rock.
	The more rock, the more gravity.
	Others think we're being pressed in upon.
	Rather than held down, so nobody exactly understands gravity.
	Not, not, not fully.
	I'm Art Bell from the high desert and Johannesburg, South Africa.
	This is Coast to Coast AF.
	♪♪♪ ♪♪♪
	All right, I get these computer messages while I'm doing the program,
	and Dean in Delaware says, uh, obviously, wouldn't a hollow earth have less mass,
	therefore, obviously, less gravity.
	Uh, Jan?
	That is exactly the path we're about to walk.
	Um, by the way, for people who are on computer, um, maybe they can click through to my website via your, via yours.
	Yes, we have a link there.
	And, um, on my website, under latest news, There are two sections that might be of interest to people.
	One is a piece that I set up and called Visual Seismology.
	A whole bunch of pictures about seismic waves and detailing a whole lot of things that I did and discovered, which I don't think anybody has ever done before.
	And some arctic photographs and things That might also interest them.
	All right.
	I am slowly making my way to your website right now.
	It's getting a lot of very heavy traffic so I'll have it up here shortly.
	But we've got a link.
	I'm sure it does.
	Sitting here in Africa.
	Is that being served from here to you?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	With regard to gravity, yeah, now we're getting to the interesting stuff.
	You were talking there about being pushed or pulled and that sort of thing.
	I looked into some of that.
	I'm very open to those ideas.
	I like the pushing theory.
	One thing I'll tell you that I discovered, that I told Dr. Van Flandern, I assume that is who you've been talking to about some of these things?
	Oh, I know him well, yes, of course.
	Right.
	I actually helped to discover a little something for him that he liked.
	There was a mathematician by the name of Leonard Euler, and he's regarded as the father of modern mathematics.
	He was a genius.
	Most of modern mathematics actually comes from that one man.
	And Leonard Euler wrote some books on physics.
	He was a very prolific author.
	And he actually wrote some text explaining 225 years ago why gravity cannot be an attraction and why it must be a pressure.
	And I passed those things on to Dr. Van Flandern because I put that in my book when I wrote it originally.
	And how did he react to them?
	Oh, he liked it very much.
	It was the first time he had seen that.
	And so that was a little something academic that I discovered that most people had forgotten.
	And it was very interesting.
	Leonard Euler is a most fascinating man.
	You know, just as a teeny-weeny digression, this guy went blind.
	And even so, he did extremely complex mathematical calculations in his head.
	And he could solve equations even though he was totally blind.
	And one thing about Leonard Euler that a lot of these atheist scientists should remember in this day and age was he firmly believed in the existence of God and he believed you could prove it mathematically.
	And it was a big part of his life.
	I hear a bit of edge to your voice when you say these atheist scientists.
	I think a lot of scientists are atheists.
	I think they are too.
	And it's kind of Almost like a bit of an intellectual arrogance, you know, oh, you know, you are living in the past, so therefore you believe in a God, you know, we don't need one, you know, sort of thing.
	I guess science probably gets there, John, because they, you know, they're in this place where they have to prove everything, and if they can't prove it, then it can't be true.
	Yeah, that is one way of looking at it.
	So they end up being atheists.
	All right, so let's get back to gravity.
	Now, about half the people I talk to, the legit scientists, do think that it's a pressure rather than an attraction.
	But most seem to agree that it has some relationship to mass.
	Yes.
	Now, what's interesting is the original experiments by which they arrive at the mass of the Earth, or they think they arrive at the mass of the Earth, is a thing called the Cavendish experiment.
	And in a nutshell, they take two lead balls, they put them a certain distance apart and then they measure the attraction between them because the attraction is extremely small.
	So they measure this attraction and then they extrapolate.
	And this is a thing that science often does and it has also come short on this before.
	And what they do is they say, if a lead ball weighing one kilogram has an attractive force of X, then the attraction that we measure here on the surface of the earth Must be caused by a mass of Y. And that mass works out as 6 trillion tons, roughly.
	And then they say to themselves, OK, we know the Earth is this big, and we have 6 trillion tons to pack into it.
	So then they say, OK, well, on the surface of the Earth, we find the density of the Earth is much lower than the average density that we need.
	So therefore, there must be more mass deeper inside the Earth.
	And so what they end up with is a kind of a packing exercise.
	where they find that the mass that they need is too much for the sphere that they have.
	And so they end up going with these spheres within spheres that get ever more denser.
	And so that is how they start off trying to match mass and seismology.
	Now once they've got their model and they have to account for this mass at all times.
	Well what do you see that's wrong with the model?
	Okay the thing that they might be missing is that maybe the mass of the earth is not what they think it is.
	For example, if you look into gravity, you will see that there are a lot of people who, for decades, have been saying that there may be other factors influencing gravity.
	For example, electricity.
	A lot of people have talked about the possible influence of electricity and gravity, and it's not just nutcases who come up with this idea.
	There was a scientist in the 1960s and 70s who did a lot of electricity and gravity pendulum experiments, and he still said that his inspiration came from none other than Albert Einstein, because he studied under Einstein, and one day Einstein said to him, You know, there's got to be a relationship between gravity and electricity.
	And so this guy tried to find it.
	And so what it boils down to is there are still people, all sorts of people, and it's not just Doc.
	And you know, Dr. Van Flandern is but one of many people who are looking at gravity from all sorts of angles.
	Yes.
	And I spoke to a microwave engineer, for example, who's very interested in the electricity-gravity thing.
	And among the things he said to me was he believes that if There are currents, electric currents, that run in parallel, that they will increase gravitational attraction.
	So what you could end up with is, if there are other influencing factors inside the Earth, because we know the Earth is definitely not as neutral and as dormant as the lead ball.
	The Earth is actually quite a vibrant, almost living entity.
	It's got electric currents running along the surface of the Earth.
	It's got electric currents running deep inside the Earth.
	So, how do we know that those things do not affect gravitational attraction?
	Well, we don't know.
	In fact, I would agree that it seems quite likely.
	So, something like that could be there.
	Now, there is an interesting piece of evidence from seismology which might actually be proving that already.
	Well, I mean, why else call it electromagnetism?
	We all did it when we were in school.
	You know, you take a piece of metal, you wind a lot of wire around it and apply a current, and you have instant magnets.
	Absolutely.
	And you know, based on the Earth's magnetic field, they estimate that there must be electric currents of up to 1 billion amps circulating deep inside the Earth.
	Boy, we could use some of that power.
	So, you know, the one thing they don't look at is whether any of that has any effect.
	In other words, that less mass can have more attraction.
	Another thing as well that scientists also don't discuss Is electrostatic attraction.
	Because electrostatic attraction is vastly stronger than normal electrical forces.
	And even a little bit of that could also affect it.
	So at the end of the day, we don't know whether there are other things inside the Earth that affect the gravity.
	But there is possibly evidence in seismology, but nobody seems to look at it.
	And I'll explain to you what it is.
	Because of the supposed gravitational attraction that we have, As you go deeper into the earth, the pressures become greater and greater.
	And so what happens is, because of these pressures, at a certain point, rock is supposed to start flowing.
	Right.
	And so what should happen is, between a depth of 70 and 150 kilometers, there should no longer be earthquakes.
	Because the pressures are so great that the rock will flow and there will never be the sharp fracturing that you need for an earthquake.
	That'd be more like the rock and pond thing, right?
	In other words, a shockwave hitting liquid would be more like a rock in a pond.
	It would produce sort of a... Well, in this case, what they say is there can never be a...
	Great.
	Because most earthquakes are caused by rocks suddenly fracturing.
	But if the rock flows, it can't fracture suddenly because it never gets to that point.
	That's like plate tectonics.
	We understand what happens there, because that's pretty close to the surface.
	But down there, if it were liquid, as we pointed out, you wouldn't have breaks.
	You couldn't have breaks.
	You've already got liquid.
	Yes.
	So in other words, if a stress builds up, then the stress relieves itself by flowing at a very slow pace.
	It flows, and so there can never be a sudden stress.
	So what happens is, according to scientists, and according to all the known materials they have, There is no material known to man which will not be able to flow beneath a depth of 150 kilometers.
	And therefore, between 70 and 150 kilometers, we should see less and less seismic activity, and then below 150, none at all.
	The reality of the matter is that there are things called deep quakes, which go down to 700 kilometers beneath the Earth.
	Well, you know, it's funny you should mention that, Jan, because a few years ago on this program, I read about a quake somewhere in South America.
	I can't recall exactly.
	It was in South America.
	700 kilometers deep.
	And that damn thing was felt all the way to New York.
	Absolutely.
	It was one of the most devastating quakes and felt the furthest distance from it.
	You've got a good point.
	South America is actually quite a hotbed of these extremely deep quakes.
	So what happens now is we now know from earthquakes that we have epicenters down to 700 kilometers beneath the surface of the earth.
	And so what that tells you straight away is rock is still fracturing down there where it shouldn't be fracturing.
	You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right.
	In other words, conventional theory says there couldn't really be earthquakes that deep because there couldn't be rock the way we know, rock only liquid, but yet we are having those earthquakes, very good point.
	Now in my book I have a most interesting diagram which shows the relationship between depth and pressure and temperature.
	And so what happens is, according to conventional theory, as you go deeper it gets hotter and hotter and hotter.
	Right.
	And so what happens is when you look, and we're not just talking a few earthquakes, we're talking there's something like 25,000 plus earthquakes which have occurred below 150 kilometers.
	And what happens is, with these earthquakes now, Goodness, I lost my track of thought for a second.
	Sorry about that.
	Alright, well again, I guess we're at the overall point, which I thought you made really graphically well, that there can't be earthquakes down there, but we are having earthquakes down there, and so there's your point.
	What I wanted to say was also, this relationship between temperature and pressure, as you get deeper, the temperatures are so enormous that obviously The rock cannot be rigid anymore.
	Right.
	And if you look at these graphs, you will see that the only conclusion you can draw as to why earthquakes are taking place at that depth is that the rock must be cool.
	It must be a lot cooler and we're talking hundreds of degrees cooler than they think it is.
	Now this could open up a whole new, you know, Now this could go back to your pressure theories of gravity or other theories, because what I basically am wondering is whether a lot of what we know about gravity dies out in the first few miles of the Earth's surface, you know, the first 100 or 200 miles.
	Things change a lot.
	We don't know exactly how to behave deeper.
	May I interrupt you and ask you how you imagine, that's really, really interesting, that as you would descend into the Earth, gravity as we know it would really be completely a different thing.
	How do you imagine it might be different if you were down 200 or 300 miles?
	What then?
	Now you've got me with an interesting thing.
	It may be that you even enter a state of weightlessness.
	At a depth much less than you think.
	And I'll tell you, as I look at, when we get to the deeper stuff of seismology, you will see that I start pointing to the possibility that maybe density even decreases at a certain point.
	And that is, I mean, now we are out somewhere else. But wait until you see how that fits into
	the seismic model and for the people who can get to my website, they can have a good
	visual look at that and they'll be able to catch what I'm saying because it's frightening.
	Well, it's interesting because when you get 200 or 300 miles above the earth, gravity
	goes away basically and you are weightless as you circle at that distance.
	And we have things, uh, plenty of things circling at that, about that distance, as a matter of fact.
	So if you were that far into the Earth, and it wasn't the way they think that it is, then your theory could as easily be true as not, couldn't it?
	Oh, that's fascinating.
	It's very different.
	And you see, this is why I was saying to you, when I looked at this whole thing, I did it as a lateral thinking exercise.
	I understand.
	And you know, many people wonder, you know, why am I so insistent on my book and what I've done?
	And it's because I truly feel that I've got some ideas that nobody's thought before, and I'm sure that there are lots of bright people out there who could actually take this further.
	And that was why I wrote the book as what I called a feasibility study, because I came to the conclusion that I really think I'm onto something here.
	You may well be.
	A lot of people would ask, you know, we have traditional ideas of the way worlds were formed, even the way suns were formed.
	Lots of controversy and questions about it, but we do have fairly traditional ideas about The way a planet, say, was formed.
	How could a planet be formed and be essentially as you imagine it could be?
	Maybe a hollow planet.
	Yes, hollow.
	What I thought of was, I hit it from two different angles.
	There seem to be only two possibilities.
	The one that I quite fancied, which was kind of cute, but I don't push it in a big way anymore, was, I don't know if you know, but there are some geologists Who believe that the earth is expanding and they cite various evidence and they've even put together ideas saying that you didn't have plate tectonics that caused like Africa and South America to split.
	You actually had an earth that's expanding and if you were to analyze it from that viewpoint it actually makes more sense, so they say.
	And I wondered if there was something that could make it expand and I went and dug into the possibility of nuclear reactions In the core of the Earth, which is something I hope we will touch on a bit later.
	But the other possibility, and this seems to be the one that makes the most sense, was suggested to me by somebody some years ago.
	And that was, if you have a cloud of gas, and it's coalescing to form a planet, a sphere, and that cloud is rotating, then you will find that the rotation and the centrifugal force will cause it to turn into a shell.
	And in fact, he said, and here's something quite freaky, he said, the faster it rotates, the bigger it will become.
	And it will keep expanding until it reaches a certain point.
	And the amount by which it will expand depends on the rate of rotation.
	Now just the curious thing about the solar system is if you look at all the big planets, the really big ones, Jupiter, Saturn, etc.
	They have incredible rates of rotation that are stunning.
	And all the small planets rotate slowly.
	Well, you realize this is purely heretical.
	I mean, it's just absolutely outrageous to planetary scientists, some of them anyway, or even most of them.
	But when you think about it, thank you.
	Hold on, we're at the top of the hour.
	When you think about it, if you Think out of the box a little bit.
	You know, their box.
	That's their box, remember, folks.
	If you think out of it, then you can get to an idea like this, and it makes perhaps as much sense as what they say.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Back now to Yon Lombron, the other side of the world, almost exactly from me in Johannesburg,
	South Africa.
	And we were talking about how a planet, a hollow planet, could possibly form.
	And you sure did make sense with the answer when you consider the swirling effect and what it would produce.
	That makes sense.
	There's something I can add to that.
	Okay.
	I actually took that idea and I spoke to a professor of mathematics.
	A guy I know who is pretty open-minded.
	And I said to him, what do you think of this idea?
	And after some thought, he came back to me and he said to me, this idea makes sense, and he would take it further.
	He would say that if you had a homogenous sphere of swirling material, and this was rotating, then it would settle into three different portions.
	Right at the very center would be a ball.
	Then there would be an area of low density or nothing at all, and then an outer shell.
	So in other words, he ended up basically with a hollow shell with a ball floating right in the middle.
	That was his answer to me.
	Then there could be this whole area short of the ball, if there is even a ball there, that would be open.
	Hollow, virtually hollow, empty.
	Yeah, a cavity, yeah.
	A gigantic cavity.
	It would be a cavity that if you were there, would be a world.
	It could be.
	Now this is where I, the next thing I wanted to do, and actually probably the most important part of the exercise, was seismology.
	And so, knowing that scientists work on this presumption, as we said, a seismic wave goes from A to B, how does it What path does it follow?
	And the way scientists approach it is they say, we know the mass is 6 trillion tons, therefore we will interpret that path according to that model of ours which we've packed with those spheres of differing density.
	Right.
	And so, they always work with seismology within very narrow parameters.
	They're always having to account for the 6 trillion tons.
	If not in this sphere, then in that sphere.
	But they've got to have that six trillion tons taken care of.
	Otherwise, they don't go further.
	And this is where I stepped right out of the box and did something totally different.
	I didn't worry about masses.
	I didn't worry about anything like that.
	I was concerned with only one thing.
	And that was, how do the facts of seismology, which we know about the surface of the Earth, fit in with the idea of a hollow world?
	And so then I started looking at this thing and the first thing you realize is that the traditional hollow earth with a thin crust of a thousand miles and that sort of thing doesn't work.
	It can't work.
	And so because what would happen is you'd have an earthquake and you'd have this huge cavity that would block out all seismic waves and they wouldn't travel very far.
	They would travel at certain angles And maybe cover about a quarter of the Earth's surface, but the vast amount of the Earth would never receive any seismic waves.
	So that is the first thing that stands in its way.
	And I had a look at this and I wondered to myself if there was any possible seismic model that could actually work for a hollow planet.
	Because on the face of it, it looks like an impossible requirement.
	And one day when I was sitting and having a look at this thing, I suddenly hit on the idea of what if density at a certain point begins decreasing?
	Because as you go into the earth, density increases because of the packing and the weight of the stuff above it and so forth.
	But as you go deeper, could it be that at a point it starts decreasing?
	And then what would the effect be on seismic waves?
	And to my astonishment, I realized that it would cause a strange thing to occur.
	Some seismic waves would continue along near the top of the Earth, but others would start curving around the Earth.
	Curving around a cavity.
	That's right.
	And depending on the density and the packing and that sort of thing, it is quite possible for seismic waves to then travel right to the opposite end of the Earth.
	And that is quite a fascinating revelation.
	It certainly is.
	You were going to say something else.
	We have a slight delay, of course, from here to South Africa, so we're going to step on each other from time to time.
	What I wanted to say was, and when I saw that, that there was an answer to something that was theoretically impossible, and you know, the first person who saw a lot of this was Dr. Van Flandern.
	I sent a copy of my book to him, and he browsed through it, because he's a very busy man, and he said to me, the most important thing in your book is your seismology.
	And that is the thing that I always wanted as a result of my book.
	I actually wanted somebody who is a geologist or a geophysicist or a seismologist to just take that little model, take that idea and theoretically match up the real data that we have with that model.
	Now I of course did quite a few exercises of my own and a friend of mine wrote a program to model some of my ideas.
	And we used that on that web page that I called Visual Seismology, comparing hollow earth and solid earth.
	And we took that thing and we played with it to show that theoretically, that kind of thing can work.
	Your model, in other words, scientifically, your model would work as well as the next guy's theory.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	In fact, maybe even a lot better.
	And the point is, because scientists have always approached the problem from such a narrow point of view, always got to take care of that 6 trillion tons, they've never been really flexible in testing a wide variety of ideas.
	And so, I'm quite sure when I look at my model closely and I study it really closely and I compare it to theirs, I am sure that there are a number of points Where mine is far superior to theirs.
	And this is the thing I actually want them to test.
	But it's a real problem getting people to look at it.
	I have over the years had one or two open-minded guys have a look at it.
	There was one geologist who looked at my book and he loved it.
	And there was one geophysicist that I managed to get to look at my chapter on seismology.
	And he actually commented that everything I said was very reasonable.
	It was nothing outlandish, nothing weird.
	I'm quite... I know the facts.
	I'm following the facts.
	I'm following the rules.
	I'm just thinking very differently.
	And as we get deeper into that, you will see that there are some interesting things.
	For example, at a certain distance from an earthquake, there is a thing called the shadow zone.
	It is an area On the surface of the Earth that gets less seismic waves than the other areas.
	Now scientists try to explain that with their models and I've got pictures of that on that webpage explaining how they see it.
	But with this thing that I've told you where you have increasing density and then decreasing density, you have a funny thing that happens.
	Some waves go up and some go down and around the Earth.
	And this causes an area in between of less seismic waves.
	And you know what?
	If you get the parameters right, then it matches that shadow zone that they're talking about.
	Well, I like the quote.
	I'm on your webpage right now, and today's quote says, It is a good morning exercise for a research scientist to discard a pet hypothesis every day before breakfast.
	It keeps him young.
	Conrad Lawrence.
	Yeah, I've got a whole bunch of those.
	That's a really nice quote.
	I like that.
	Um, listen, also on the front part of your webpage, it says, Arctic Expedition News.
	I am trying to raise money for a trip to the Arctic to test my ideas regarding crockery land and the polar hole.
	The polar hole.
	Um, what do you believe about something up there?
	Arctic?
	Okay, this goes back to the old hollow earth stuff with Sir Edmund Haley.
	Edmund Halley looked at the aurora and he came up with the idea that maybe the aurora is some kind of reflection from some kind of light inside the earth.
	And so this was where ideas came up that there might be some kind of sun inside the earth and all sorts of things.
	And all these hollow earths talk about this hole that might exist in the earth.
	Now Halley, 300 years ago, was the first guy to study the Earth's magnetic field.
	And it was the motion of the Earth's magnetic field that made him think that there is this polar hole.
	And so he came up with the idea that in the Arctic, the top of the Earth is sort of chopped off, and there's a gigantic hole 2,000 miles across.
	And of course, and even now, you still get people producing NASA photographs and saying, oh goodness, this must be it, this must be it.
	Well, there are a lot of legends we all know about a polar hole.
	As a matter of fact, there are legends about the Nazis and a polar hole.
	There are legends about Admiral Byrd.
	That's right.
	And now, legends sometimes, of course, are blown up and outrageous and totally have no relationship to the truth.
	But more times than not, There's something that started them.
	There's some kernel of truth somewhere down there that supports all of this, all this time, or they die out.
	So, could there be, could there be some truth to this?
	Right.
	What I was looking at was, as I said to you at the beginning, I was open to the idea of conspiracy theories.
	Yes, yes.
	And so, one of the things, one of the reasons why I tackled this problem originally Was because I began to wonder if all this weirdness that we love so much with UFOs and God knows all these different things.
	I wondered if a lot of these things had a common origin.
	And that also added to this thinking of the hollow earth.
	I wondered if the weirdness wasn't so much out there as under here.
	And I began thinking of Subterranean things, and that sort of thing.
	And I even wondered, for example, take for example UFOs.
	People say, well, if we're being visited by aliens, why doesn't the government just tell us?
	And I used to wonder to myself, could it be that if you knew the truth, the truth would be so freaky that you would understand why they are covering it up to begin with?
	And I wondered, for example, could it be that UFOs actually come from the Earth, as bizarre as that sounds?
	No, no, no, not that bizarre.
	I hear that all the time on a program like this program.
	My question to you is, I mean, it's not even a question, well, yeah, it's a question.
	You are trying to raise money to go to the Arctic.
	Now, you wouldn't be trying to raise money to go there unless you thought there was something there.
	That's right.
	Isn't that right?
	That's exactly.
	So what I began to think about in a nutshell was that This polar hole idea of 2,000 miles across and all that sort of thing, that's nonsense.
	And I looked at every single photograph that anybody ever produced, and I've got them all reproduced in my book.
	I've got a beautiful collection of, quote, hollow earth photographs.
	And the truth of the matter is not one of them represents a hole.
	There is no hole.
	You can look on maps, you can look in photographs, you can look anywhere.
	There is no evidence whatsoever of a polar hole.
	Being open-minded to the possibility that things can be hidden deliberately from you, I began to investigate the possibility that maybe, take for example cartography.
	If you go and get yourself any decent map, you will see on the bottom of it, it says, you know, maybe it's from the National Ocean Service or whatever.
	But then in the bottom it will say, prepared by the Prepared by a military department.
	I can't remember the exact name.
	It's something about a mapping department in the United States military.
	Yes.
	So you begin to realize that all cartography is controlled by the military.
	And so they can put things on a map or take things off a map.
	They don't want you to know about it.
	They can also have things removed from satellite photographs.
	Oh, they can do all kinds of things.
	Exactly.
	Now, I mean, as a computer programmer, I'm very suspicious of satellite photographs because they're all digital.
	And digital things, you can have a filter applied to it.
	A filter being a computer program that is set up to look for certain things and remove them.
	And they have these filters on photographs that come from satellites.
	In fact, in my book, I make an interesting point.
	Carl Sagan said that once he viewed a photograph of Phobos, the moon of Mars.
	And it looked like it had a hole through it, or there was an area that looked very bizarre, and then he applied a filter to it, and then this thing went away.
	Now, you wonder to yourself, okay, maybe in that case there wasn't anything suspicious, but you wonder to yourself if on normal satellite photographs, you know, before a company, even a private company, launches a satellite, how do you know That there isn't a procedure in place.
	I don't.
	Where, before the satellite is launched, the military comes along, or there's some government rule which says, you will comply to this and this and this.
	Or you will put this chip in there, or whatever.
	Exactly.
	No, no, listen, I'm with you all the way.
	And so, you're basically saying that everything we rely on with regard to the Arctic could be controlled.
	By our government.
	Right.
	So what I was looking for, was I said to myself, they can control lots of things.
	Or let's put it this way, they can control certain key things and fool you with that.
	But there's lots of things they cannot control.
	They cannot control the weather.
	They cannot control ocean current.
	They're making a good shot at the weather, you know.
	If you look at the U.S.
	Air Force website, it makes a claim that we will own the weather shortly.
	They actually say that, yes.
	Uh, I know.
	I, well, we live in strange times, John.
	Uh, listen, hold on.
	Uh, we're at the bottom of the hour.
	And, uh, he's quite right about all of that, you know?
	I wonder how this is resonating seismically with you this morning.
	Fascinating stuff.
	Leon Lemberg, all the way from Johannesburg, South Africa.
	Here on the other side of the world, I'm Art Bell, not far from the Valley of Death.
	And this is Coast to Coast AM.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	You know, if Yon got the money, which he may, and went to the Arctic and did find a hole, did find an entrance, I wonder what he'd do.
	And I think that's what we'll ask, coming up in a moment.
	Okay, let's try the question.
	Jan Lemberg lives in Johannesburg, South Africa, but the connection better than I frequently get to Las Vegas, just over the mountain from me here.
	Jan, if you were able to raise the money for an expedition to the Arctic, which you obviously are striving to do, and you got sufficiently funded, and you got there, and you did find something that apparently led endlessly downward, what would you do?
	Obviously, the nice thing would be to explore, but the truth and reality is this, is I doubt that there's anything I would find that wouldn't be known already, because if there's any exploration that's been done, you know, assuming such a thing exists, okay, and I myself, I'm not totally convinced it exists, but I remain open-minded enough to want to give this a shot, okay, is assume something is there, I would assume the military's been all over it.
	They've mapped it as far as they can possibly map it until maybe they were stopped or whatever.
	But I would assume that even just the slightest hint that such a thing could exist would cause an utter furor.
	Now, my expedition is like that seismic diagram.
	It's something I want to test.
	There are two things that I want to test as a result of my book.
	The one, to get somebody to test the seismic diagram.
	And the other one is to test the idea that the maps of the Arctic have been tampered with.
	And the best thing I could come up with was there were claims by Hollow Earthers that there used to be pieces of land and islands and mountains on maps which were then removed.
	And so I spent a lot of time looking into that.
	And the most interesting stories I came across were places by the name of Crocker Land, Bradley Land, Senekov Land.
	Crocker Land especially is the really interesting one.
	Tell me about Crocker Land.
	Okay.
	In a nutshell, what happened was Admiral Perry, when he was traveling along the northern coastline of Alaska in preparation for his trips to the North Pole, he wandered along a place and he came to a place called Cape Colgate.
	And at this place, there was a mountain.
	And he went up onto this high hill.
	It was about 2,000 feet high.
	And he looked out over the Arctic with his binoculars, and he saw a continent.
	He saw mountains.
	And he named this thing Crockerland.
	And then he carried on for a few days, traveled to another point along the coast, went up a hill, looked out across the ocean, and he saw these mountains again.
	And he named this place Crockerland.
	And when he prepared for his Arctic journey, He said that on his way back from the North Pole, if he gets a chance, he might send some people to go looking for Crocker Land.
	Now, not too far from there is another place called Bradley Land, very close by.
	And when Dr. Frederick Cook went to the North Pole, he was carrying along across the Arctic ice.
	He was far away from the coastline now.
	And as he was walking, he saw to the west of him, he saw land.
	And he walked parallel to the coastline for about 50 miles and at a point he stopped and he took a photograph of it.
	That photograph is on my website in the latest news section and you just go down there and you'll see a picture which shows an Eskimo sled and far in the distance you see these round hills.
	I see them.
	I see them.
	You see?
	I see the sleds and the dogs pulling and I see the What would appear to be hills or mountains, that's hard to discern in this resolution, but obviously very large things.
	What he said, based on him walking for 50 miles along its coast, is he estimated that those hills that you see there were 1,800 feet high and were 14 miles away.
	Oh, really?
	And do you know, that is the only photograph that exists of Bradley Land.
	That.
	Dr. Cook is kind of the hero of my book.
	He may have been the original guy who stumbled on something he shouldn't have stumbled on and he paid the price for it.
	Dr. Cook eventually went to prison for a crime he didn't commit.
	He was accused of fraud but he actually didn't defraud anybody.
	He went to prison and Everything he wrote about the Arctic was thrown into question and for decades he was regarded as a liar and then eventually, bit by bit, as time went by, academics went and they started looking at Dr. Cook again and they started realizing that he said so many things and discovered so many things before Perry.
	And do you know Dr. Cook's His reputation has eventually been totally revived.
	Well, it says here that at that time he actually was accused of faking this photograph.
	That as well.
	He was accused of faking everything.
	He said, for example, that he climbed Mount McKinley in Alaska.
	And there were people who testified against him, and later on it was discovered that military people had paid them bribes.
	And all of these things that I'm telling you are known now, and if you go to the Frederick Cook Society, and you start following up on recent developments in Arctic history in the last 10, 20, 30 years, you will realize that everything that they accused Dr. Cook of, they have discovered that actually everything he did was honest.
	The only, only remaining thing about Dr. Cook that has not been proven true is that photograph that you see there.
	And Dr. Cook said exactly where he was when he took that photograph.
	Now that is a few hundred miles from where Admiral Perry saw Crocker Land.
	But it is entirely possible that Crocker Land and Bradley Land are part of a larger piece of land.
	And just before those guys discovered those things, there used to be a lot of talk in Arctic circles about the possibility of finding a continent at the North Pole.
	And the first serious evidence of that was an American scientist of the U.S.
	Geodetic Survey by the name of Dr. Harris.
	And in the National Geographic around about 1904, He put forward the case for there being an entire continent north of Alaska.
	And the way he arrived at it was his subject of study was tides.
	And he said that the way that the tides move along the northern coastline of Alaska shows him that there is a body of land.
	There's something.
	There's an object.
	To the north of Alaska, which is blocking the flow of water and causing the tides in the west to be different from the tides in the east.
	And so he put forward the idea that there's a huge continent up there.
	And the idea of a huge continent was something that almost every Arctic explorer knew about.
	And there were even people who died trying to get there.
	There was somebody who tried to sail up through the Bering Strait.
	And to try in the hope that warm current from the Bering Strait would melt a lot of ice up to the North Pole.
	They tried to sail from the Bering Strait right into the North Pole.
	What happened was they were caught in pack ice, the ship was crushed, most of the people got killed.
	But this idea of there being land there is very interesting and it's something that's been totally forgotten.
	When I looked into this in more detail, as a result of what Perry and so forth had discovered, in 1914 they put together a very big team of people to go looking for Crocker Land.
	And they trekked out to the place where Perry was.
	And the guys involved were Admiral McMillan and there was a Lieutenant Commander Green.
	Now Green is an interesting character because Green had a Master's Degree in Science.
	And he was the scientist of the trip.
	They had about 50 people and then weird things started to happen.
	Among the things that happened was there was an instance where Green murdered an Eskimo.
	The Eskimo went crazy and there's a lot of stuff as to we don't know why exactly what happened, why Green had to shoot the Eskimo.
	But the Eskimo went nuts.
	Whether the Eskimo saw something, I don't know.
	But it's a very strange story.
	Then what happened was, they all went out to the spot where Perry had seen Crocodant.
	They went onto the hill and they waited.
	And then they had some clear days.
	And on those clear days, they could see out before them, across 120 degrees of the horizon, they could see hills and valleys.
	They saw an enormous mountain range.
	So then what they did was they started crossing the ice but the problem was the ice, the current
	in that part of the Arctic are very strong and they cause the ice to crush together and
	it's very, very difficult to go over it.
	Literally, it's like climbing small hills all the time.
	And so they battled and struggled out into the Arctic Sea.
	But they found that as they got closer to these mountains, that the mountains always
	seemed to be further away.
	And they carried on like this until they were about 90 miles away from the coastline.
	And then they ran out of supplies and they had to turn back.
	So then what happened?
	Because the mountains always seem to recede, Macmillan then said he thinks it's some kind of mirage.
	But the problem is, and in my book I did quite a study of this, I actually spoke to an expert on mirages in Canada.
	And the problem is with the kind of mirage that they had, Is that it was so huge, so consistent, it could not have been something small that was magnified.
	It could not have been that.
	Well, it would also be a mirage that was caught quite readily by the camera that took the picture I'm looking at.
	Okay.
	Yeah, whether that is part of the same mirage is an interesting thing, and that's one of the things one would want to look at.
	I have a suspicion that even though Bradley Land and Crocker Land are a certain distance from each other, we may be talking the same thing here.
	And so what I want to do is, if I had the money, I would like to go to where Admiral Perry was and stand on the same hill and camp there for a day or a week or two weeks or however long it takes at the same time of the year that he was there, which we're talking any time between April and June.
	I would like to go there, I would like to stand there, I'd like to take my camera with me, I'd like to take some binoculars with me, and I would like to see what they saw.
	If there is an opening anywhere there, where would it most likely be, or where would you guess that it would be?
	Are you going to guess that it would be somewhere in Crocker land?
	My guess would be, if they are removing things from maps, Then it must all be in a similar kind of a region.
	And so, shall we call it the suspicious area, would be somewhere, say from 200 miles or so north of Alaska, all the way up to the North Pole.
	Somewhere in that vast area, I think there's something.
	And so what I would like to do with this expedition idea is see if I can actually prove that a map has been tampered with.
	That would be the real key.
	Because let's say you could see a mirage.
	Then you can take photographs of it, you can prove it.
	Maybe this mirage, because they went back to this thing, and Green, whereas McMillan concluded that this was a mirage, Green did not.
	Green actually went and wrote several articles, including one in Popular Science, where he said that there is an island the size of Pennsylvania out there.
	Okay.
	And as a point, on my latest news, among those Arctic things, just a little bit lower than where you are, you will see that there's a link there to the Popular Science article.
	And if you want to have a look at that, that was written in 1923 in Popular Science.
	It was written by Commander Green.
	And it's the incredible, incredible story that maybe the Vikings who used to live in Greenland The climate changed, it got colder, and maybe they moved to Crocker Land.
	Let me ask you a question that probably you can't answer, but you could try.
	You know, you make the assumption that our government would be well aware, or perhaps many governments would be aware of what is there, someplace there.
	What motivation Would they have for keeping this secret for probably a very, very long time now.
	Why keep it secret?
	I would assume that it would be the same kind of reasoning that they use with regard to UFOs.
	That, for some reason, they regard this as sensitive.
	Maybe, in the case of the Hollow Earth, you maybe have even more reason.
	For example, if there are other things there, Maybe you would come into conflict with another civilization.
	Maybe it might even be just a case of a loss of faith.
	You know, no longer is the United States the only superpower.
	Imagine if there was a bigger superpower.
	You know, what then?
	You know, that sort of thing.
	That would definitely be bad.
	We would regard that as not good.
	Yeah, you know, so then it might create You know, I mean, I'm jumping the gun talking about UFOs coming from the center of the Earth, but I'm saying, you know, maybe it's something like that, you know?
	Well, it's certainly as good an explanation as coming from a Well, you know, there are two things about the argument of them coming closer.
	why it's utterly impossible UFOs couldn't be here, they simply couldn't.
	You know, we've got Einstein's speed of light and all the rest of that, and they say, well,
	it can't be.
	Well, it could be if they were coming from a point closer, so it's as easy to imagine
	as the other.
	Well, you know, there are two things about the argument of them coming closer.
	The one is, whatever applies to the hollow Earth would apply to all planets.
	Bye.
	And so one of the offbeat ideas that I mention in my book is the possibility that maybe the norm for life is not the outside of planets, but the inside of planets.
	Maybe we're the abnormal ones.
	Are you aware, Jan, of all the reports of UFOs that have been seen diving into the sea?
	Yeah!
	Oh, you are?
	Now there's another thing.
	It's like, how do you know that it's not just aerial vehicles that come out?
	How do you know that they don't have a type of a submarine?
	You know, what we might call a submarine.
	Like you say, diving in and out.
	That it can travel underwater as well.
	The fact is we don't know, nor do we know where it goes when it gets underwater.
	Yeah.
	There have been aircraft carriers, you know, that have had sightings of craft just Right into the ocean and or right out.
	Now think about something else about UFO sighting.
	Have you noticed how many UFO sightings are totally mundane?
	Like an alien lands, he walks up to a guy, he exchanges a few words with him, he walks away.
	It's like he's totally nonchalant about the whole business.
	It's not like, hello, I come from 50 light years away, Who are you kind of thing, you know?
	He's totally casual about it and also there's like a total lack of curiosity on their part in some ways.
	So one of the things that I wondered is, does it mean that, you know, we think they come from like a hundred light years away and therefore finding us is a great thing, when in fact they maybe lived here for the last Ten million years.
	They know us better than we know ourselves.
	They don't even need to talk to us because they know more about us than we know about ourselves.
	Exactly right.
	Hold on.
	Stay right there.
	Take a look at the picture on his website.
	We've got a link on my website.
	Oh, the mountains.
	Look at the mountains behind that sled.
	Shouldn't be there.
	Well now, I am the Alex Jones TV.
	Look out for me, I am a valiant soldier Can't get far to this other side
	Don't you give up baby, don't you cry Don't you give up baby, bring me under your sky
	I don't need it, I couldn't be here We will get the phones open for Rayyan sometime during this
	hour, shortly in fact However, I would ask that you all remember there is a... We're talking to the other side of the world here.
	So there is a bit of a delay between when you ask a question and when it's answered.
	So you have to be pretty much prepared to ask your question and then sit back and listen to the answer.
	When you attempt a rapid-fire two-way conversation, satellite connections of this distance tend to produce talking over one another.
	So you've got to kind of prepare your question.
	That way.
	Now, I do get questions by computer, millions of them.
	Mark in Oregon asks a pretty interesting question.
	He says, the U.S.
	Subnautilus sailed under the North Pole in 1958.
	It sailed on a route north from Alaska.
	Would it not have bumped into Crocker Land?
	That's interesting.
	You see, the problem is, when you're dealing with the military, is what did the military do versus what they tell you they did?
	Because, you know, military deception is just a normal part of the military way of life.
	Well, that's absolutely true here and in your country as well, by the way.
	Everywhere on Earth.
	And, you know, I've always had a bit of an interest in military history and it only serves to make me even more suspicious when you see the length to which they go to deceive people and to deceive their enemies and so forth.
	And the one thing I will tell you about that Nautilus incident, for example, was When they sailed under the North Pole, or they said they did, that actually occurred without any fanfare and with deception.
	Because I was reading some time ago about that.
	I just happened to be in a bookstore and I saw a book on transportation.
	And I opened this book and it mentioned that incident where Nautilus sailed under the North Pole.
	And it mentioned in there that at the time the sailors were getting ready to pack, they were told Make sure that you bring warm clothes with you and sort of give off the image that we're heading off to Hawaii.
	And the next thing they did is they sailed under the ice pack and they come out the other side and they say, oh, after the fact, we sailed under the ice pack.
	I see.
	And the other thing that I discovered very recently, and this was referred to me by an academic at the Cook Society, was the Russians in the 1930s flew across the Arctic And they flew across the North Pole and they made a whole huge fuss about how they were flying from Russia to the United States.
	And this guy pointed out to me that, quietly, with sort of very little fanfare, in 1983, a guy published a book, a guy by the name of Morrison, published a book called, Russia's Shortcut to Fame, and it's subtitled, 50-Year Hoax Exposed.
	And what the whole book is about is research that an American author did to show that Russia never flew.
	Those Russian planes never flew directly from Russia to America.
	In fact, it goes as far as saying that the Russians claimed to have sent expeditions to the North Pole or to have expeditions floating on the ice.
	And after the fact, now 50 years later, this author discovers None of those things ever happened.
	The Russians put some people on an island somewhere, and then they said, gee, you know, we've got people at the North Pole.
	They didn't do any of the above.
	Are you aware, Elon, of the new international constant overflights now of the North Pole that you can take a plane from the west coast of the United States, for example, and go to Europe right over?
	Yeah, I've got a friend who's an airline pilot in the USA, and he flies across the Arctic.
	Now what I want to tell you about the Arctic, and this is where it gets quite interesting, is when Green wrote that article, and if you get a chance, just click through to it, because it's got amazing graphics and stuff.
	It's even got a little map there.
	When Green wrote that article about Crocker Land, he came up with the idea, remember this was the guy with the master's degree in science, he came up with the idea where he said, there is a fault line that runs from Iceland, across the North Pole, down to the Bering Strait.
	And he said that this island, this crocker land, exists on that fault line.
	And he says that there must be seismic activity along that fault line.
	And if, and I don't know if you know, but in Iceland, they have got a lot of geysers and a lot of heat that comes from out of the ground.
	Oh, that's true.
	And it raises the temperature of Iceland 30 degrees above what it should be.
	Something like that.
	Now, Crockerland is even higher in the Arctic.
	And one of the things that Green came up with was that Crockerland should have just as much seismic activity, but being even further north, surrounded by a truly cold ocean, this whole island must be covered in fog.
	You will see it in that article.
	And now here's an interesting thing.
	That would be absolutely true, wouldn't it?
	Because of the heat, there would be nothing but fog, so you would never see it.
	You'd never see it, except when the wind blows in the right direction.
	If the wind blows onto the island and blows some of the fog away, then you would see it.
	And if the wind were to go in the other direction, or there'd be no wind at all, you might not see the island at all.
	So what this does is Just shortly thereafter, they sent an airship from Alaska to the North Pole and back.
	And that airship never saw anything.
	But this was one of the things I was thinking about, was could it be that you have this fog-covered island and that flying over it isn't going to be enough?
	You have to get onto ground level.
	Sure.
	And look at this thing from ground level.
	So that was why my Crockerland idea was based on two things.
	Number one, do an expedition to go and see it, and film it, and see if you can actually see it on a clear day.
	If you can do that, you come back with the film footage, you say to people, look at this, this is what I saw.
	Maybe get somebody to analyze the footage or something.
	Then, you say, okay, if we've seen this, let us now try and actually get there.
	And the way we get there, is we drop off somebody, Back at the same vantage point, and that person sits there with binoculars, and he looks at this thing, and then we have an aircraft that flies overhead, and the guy directs the aircraft.
	And he says, go to the left, go to the right, go a bit lower, go here, there.
	Maybe then you will find this thing, because to travel across the ice physically is so difficult.
	Yes, of course.
	That was my kind of thinking.
	All right, moving back in the conversation a little bit.
	He was speculating on UFOs as possibly coming from the Earth itself.
	If that were true, Richard in Fairbanks, Alaska, and they're pretty well up there, asks, wouldn't we see a lot more UFOs by percentage here than people would see elsewhere?
	That's actually an interesting point.
	The one thing I thought of that might relate to this, did you hear about a scientist in the United States a year or two ago Who made quite a lot of news when he spoke about icy comets striking the Earth.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Right.
	Let me tell you something about that guy.
	That guy has this whole theory that these ice comets are hitting the Earth all the time.
	And he had these NASA images of them.
	Now, the first thing that struck me as interesting was I wondered, and I didn't mention this in my book, but it's something I've been speculating about quietly for the last few years.
	I've wondered if what that scientist thinks is icy comets is actually UFOs.
	Because one of the things he says is that icy comets are half time.
	Okay?
	So they sound, you know, like a reasonable size for a spacecraft.
	Well, they do, yes.
	Now, the next thing is, consider this.
	The Earth is dashing through space at 60-something thousand miles an hour.
	If you have two objects moving through space at very high speeds, What is the chance that those objects will meet and strike the one, that the small object will strike the big object in the polar region, versus the chance that the small object will strike the big object at the equator?
	The logic is, if you had to do a bit of math and a bit of thinking, you will realize that the greater part of the Earth's volume is more likely to strike the comet Then the polar regions, because they are moving in a... Remember, all orbits are more or less elliptical.
	Right.
	Of course.
	So the chance of being hit from the side rather than from the top is actually greater.
	Sure it is.
	And yet this guy only says that the polar regions are being hit by these things.
	And if you look at his images, he's got stacks of these things.
	Then another interesting thing took place.
	All the scientists were so uptight about this thing.
	They said, this scientist is talking nonsense.
	So then the scientist went and he went to the U.S.
	Navy because they had some equipment that could do the imaging or whatever.
	I can't remember exactly what it was.
	But he asked the United States Navy to go and to conduct an experiment for him and give him the results.
	And guess what?
	The Navy conducted the experiment and came back and said, you know what?
	You're wrong.
	No icy comets.
	Nothing's happening.
	Then he discovered after the event that the United States Navy had actually cheated.
	They'd actually fiddled the experiment.
	And that was the last time I heard of that scientist.
	I haven't heard since where he's gone.
	But I kept wondering, I kept wondering all the time whether whether what you had was actually some kind of space traffic.
	Well, look, you said you, uh, subscribed to some conspiracy theory.
	Now, I'm open-minded.
	Well, uh, alright.
	Look, uh, there are major countries bordering the Arctic, right?
	Uh, they would all have to be involved.
	In some sort of conspiracy for this to have been kept silent.
	We would certainly not be the only ones aware of it or the only ones that could send submarines under the Russians could have done it.
	There would have to be some complicity in the silence.
	No question about it.
	I mean, it's quite awesome to think about it.
	I mean, you know, I mean, admittedly, even as I talk about the things I sometimes doubt myself, but the truth of the matter is all the things that I've been picking up are not things that have been channeled I've not been reading UFO magazines.
	Oh, I'm with you.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I very well know what you're saying, of course.
	In fact, some of the strangest things I've come across come from places like National Geographic.
	Do you know that I read an article from a National Geographic in the 1890s which said that there were Eskimos who saw some men with spears Walking along the coastline of Alaska, and the Eskimos looked at the way these guys were dressed, and they said, these guys are not Eskimos.
	When the Eskimos approached them, they ran away.
	And guess where they ran to?
	They ran out into the Arctic Sea to the north of Alaska.
	Now, where this thing, where there may be a connection, is Green said that he had Eskimo evidence that Crocker Land existed.
	Green said that he went to Greenland, and he spoke to Eskimos there, and he asked them what had happened to the white people who used to live in Greenland.
	And the Eskimos told him, because these people lived there, the Greenland colony lived there for several hundred years, they lived far up in the north of Greenland, and we know that they lived there, there are ruins of their houses and everything.
	There were 9,000 of them, and they all disappeared, and nobody knows where they went.
	And according to Green, the Eskimos said to him, that there is another island, and to get to this island, you walk across the North Pole for about a month.
	And when you get to that island, it's a very warm island.
	And the Eskimos reckon that hundreds of years ago, these Vikings packed up their bags, and they moved to this other island.
	And so Green in that 1923 article theorized that when you get to Crockerland, you'd find the Vikings.
	The Vikings used to live in Greenland.
	You'd find them living there right now.
	Wow.
	So, you know, there's some pretty weird stuff there.
	In fact, it was made into a movie, I discovered.
	There's a Walt Disney movie, and you can still buy it, I think from Amazon.
	It's called Island at the Top of the World, and it's based exactly on that idea.
	Is it?
	Even down to the fog?
	The fog, the everything.
	In it, there are people in an airship, and they travel across the ice, and they get to this place, and they meet the Vikings, and eventually a whole set of things happen there.
	It's a very seismically active area.
	And by the way, Something happened the other day which just goes to show that green was not as far off as you might think.
	And that was?
	Up in the Arctic, you know about Pollyannas?
	I know.
	A Pollyanna is huge, big areas of ice, of ice-free ocean.
	It's places in the Arctic and the Antarctic where the ice melts.
	That I know.
	No reason at all.
	That I know about.
	You know about that now?
	I do.
	They're suggesting there are reasons for that, which are pretty ominous.
	Well, okay, what I saw the other day, which was interesting, was there was a story that came out where scientists had said they'd done some studies in the deep Arctic, and they now can prove that hot water is boiling out of fault lines and things under the Arctic.
	Again, there we go, the seismic activity that Green was talking about.
	And I'll tell you another incident was when Admiral Perry was in Greenland.
	He happened upon an Eskimo who told him about an incident some years earlier where volcanic ash had fallen down in Greenland.
	And Admiral Perry was very amazed by this.
	He said that he was convinced this Eskimo was telling him the truth.
	And the only thing that could explain it was if there was a volcano somewhere in that part of the Arctic there where we talk about Crockerland?
	Yes.
	Somewhere out there.
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	We're at the bottom of yet another hour.
	Time flies when you're having this much fun.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast Air.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast Air.
	I'm playing in the shadows.
	Do reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, Dial 1.
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	and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	You know, that's what we do here, run with the night, play with the shadows.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Right here in the middle of the sandbox.
	My guest is on the other side of the sandbox.
	John Lemberg is in Johannesburg, South Africa.
	We're talking about the hollow earth.
	And if you're not fascinated, then you're just not listening.
	Well, I'm getting a lot of ad blasting.
	Where are these bitches?
	Where are these bitches?
	Well, uh, it's easy.
	You go to my website, rbel.com.
	Go to program, uh, tonight's guest info, and, uh, right below Sean, uh, Jan Lombrecht's name, you'll see the website and the book.
	He's got a book called Hollow Planets.
	Uh, you can read that, you can order it, I'm sure, on, uh, amazon.com, and, uh, his website link is right there!
	www.hollowplanets.com, and so just click on it, and, uh, we have had some reports that it has crawled, uh, you know, slowed to a crawl, With all the traffic hitting it, but if you don't get it tonight, you can always get it tomorrow, and the way you do that is go to program and, uh, you go to, uh, last night's program.
	By then, it'll be last night's program.
	The link is still gonna be there, so don't fear if you can't see the photographs you want to see today, you'll see them tomorrow, or by now, you may well make it in.
	Back now to Johannesburg, South Africa, and Jan, we should take a few calls here, let people ask you a few questions, but is there a direct email address, uh, for you?
	Yes, they can email me at PBS, P for Peter, V for Bert, S for Snake, at iAfrica.com.
	My website is hollowplanet.com.
	Okay, let me see if I've got that right.
	That's PBS, like public broadcast system, at iAfrica.com.
	That's easy.
	That's it.
	Alright, you're liable to get a lot of emails.
	Yeah, I have an agent in America.
	They can order by my website.
	They'll get a quick response.
	I've got an agent in Texas.
	And there's also a telephone number if you want.
	Okay, oh absolutely, yes.
	Okay, the telephone number is 888-609-5006.
	Triple 8, area code, 609-5006.
	5006, that's toll free number 1888609.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	I'm sure there'll be plenty of that.
	Um, alright, let's, uh, let's try a few calls and see where we go.
	Um, first time caller line, you're on the air with, uh, Yola Lumber.
	Hi.
	Hello, this is Kathleen in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.
	Yes, hi there.
	Hello.
	Hi there.
	I was wondering what would be the possibility that these mountains of Bradley Land and Crocker Land maybe form the rim of the hole that goes into the center of the Earth.
	This is some of what I was wondering.
	I was wondering if this was possible.
	I mean, I know the polar hole idea sounds absolutely insane.
	But the one thing I wondered was whether there was like a smaller polar hole.
	Something much, much smaller than the original 2,000 mile thing.
	And I wondered if islands and things in the vicinity were all blocked out in an attempt to hide it off a map.
	Because Crockerland, I must tell you, used to exist on maps.
	And any of you who have a chance to look at old maps, maps from the 1920s and so forth, until the late 1920s, the coastline of Crockerland was marked on all maps.
	Uh, Jan, I'm going to just say this to you and you can do what you like with it, but I have recently interviewed a number of people Who have talked about holes, very cogent stories about seemingly endless holes that the government has shown a very great deal of interest in, not necessarily in the Arctic, but in other places on Earth.
	Have you heard such rumors?
	The only thing I've heard people tell me about is Mel's hole, and I've also heard that there was a story that I came across that allegedly came from Tibet.
	about something like that.
	There was a German who went to Tibet and he claimed that he met an underground community and he talked about a type of a bottomless pit as well.
	Those are the only two stories I've really heard.
	I'm open to pretty much anything, you know.
	I'll tell you something, in my research, there were stories I came across which if I could prove them, okay, or get any more evidence, they would blow your mind.
	There are some pretty interesting stories.
	Maybe I should tell you about a few of those that got away.
	The ones that I could never prove, but they were so incredibly fascinating.
	One of them was a story that apparently, once upon a time, British sailors were on an island known as Ultima Thule, which I think is actually a place called Yanmeyan Island.
	It's north of England.
	It's a tiny little island.
	It's got a volcano on it.
	And I came across a story that apparently there had been people who came out of tunnels there.
	And it was one of those things I tried to follow up on as best I could, but I just hit dead ends and it didn't look like anything.
	And then there was something that somebody was going to give me.
	As a result of a radio show I did, somebody told me that they had a book That was supposedly the diaries of a World War II pilot who crashed somewhere in the Arctic.
	And this person said to me that if you have this book, then there are some very interesting and weird things in this book which might relate to the Hollow Earth.
	And then, this person never gave me this book, and no matter what I did, they didn't do anything further.
	And I've been wondering about it, whether there was anything like that.
	Another story that comes from closer to home, probably the weirdest story I've ever heard from Southern Africa, was on TV.
	They had a documentary on it about 10 years ago here in South Africa.
	There was a guy in what is now Namibia, and he claimed, or there's a volcano in Namibia, we're not talking sort of subterranean type stuff, there's a volcano in Namibia, in the southern part of Namibia, And there are rumours among the local people that there is a flying snake, that there's a snake that can like float in the air and this thing somehow comes out of this volcano.
	And what was interesting was there was apparently an incident here in Namibia in the 1940s where a young boy was looking after some sheep and he claimed that he'd seen this thing and that it had attacked him.
	And then they sent a scientist.
	Interestingly enough, it was a scientist who'd been involved in the discovery of the coelacanth.
	They sent the scientist to go and investigate the scene.
	And she went there and she said she saw the mark of what had obviously been a reptile.
	And she thought it was a python.
	But what she said was weird about it was it was as if the python had jumped.
	As if the python could hop.
	Yes.
	And they had a whole documentary.
	There was somebody here in South Africa who spent their own money and they went off there and they tried to look for this thing and they produced this little cheap, cheap documentary about it.
	And I taped it at the time.
	It's called The Giant Flying Snake of Namibia.
	And it's one of the most bizarre stories you've ever heard.
	And you know what that is?
	That young boy is now an old man sitting in an old age home.
	And I said to him, you know, did this thing really happen?
	And he says, you know, I was there and I saw this snake on the side of the hill and it was this weird looking snake and the next thing and he said you're not going to believe me snakes can't fly but I saw a snake float in the air and this you know and and what happened was he threw a rock at the snake and the snake was angry and it hissed and then he went away and he went back to his sheep and the next thing he knew was he heard this plopping sound and next to him this snake fell on the ground and the snake smacked him with his with its tail
	And he got such a fright and he says, as he was running away from the snake, he saw the snake float into the air and sail back up to the hill.
	Okay?
	And apparently, the locals believe in the existence of this anti-gravity snake.
	Well, anti-gravity snake, I suppose one could conjecture that this snake or something else or anything else could be ejected in a volcanic eruption.
	Something that lives under very different circumstances, way below the earth, somehow might get involved in a volcanic eruption.
	It's weird, you know.
	The interest I had in some of these things was, is there any credible evidence of like an underground zoology?
	Are you hearing any recent news about the Congo?
	Oh, the Congo with its volcano.
	Nothing apart from the human tragedy and all that.
	Nothing weird or interesting.
	In fact, I didn't even know there were volcanoes in the Congo to begin with, because I didn't even know there was a fault line that ran up there.
	So I was actually amazed, even here, that there was such a thing.
	All right, let me jump back to the phones very quickly.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with John Lambert.
	Hi.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Am I on?
	Yes, you're on, ma'am.
	Oh, sorry about that.
	It's Marlena calling from Toronto, Canada.
	Yes.
	And I wanted to know if John knew about... It's actually a U.S.
	Navy ship.
	In 1957, there was a gentleman, William Cooper, that was in the observation tower.
	And all of a sudden, he observed these objects going in and out of the ocean.
	He then called another man that was on duty.
	They observed it.
	Before long, the whole ship, on one side, was full of the people there watching it for quite a number of times, because there was a lot of ships doing this.
	Now, they did report it, and eventually they were sworn to silence.
	This was a person you know, I think, Art Kolbeck, the host of a TV station here in Toronto?
	Absolutely.
	Yes, absolutely.
	I mentioned those stories earlier, Theon, there are many of them, of US warships seeing such things.
	You know, it doesn't surprise me, and the secrecy thing is interesting, because I remember also reading during the Cold War, you would often get situations up in the Norwegian fjords, Where they would say, we've spotted a Russian submarine and they'd like block this thing off.
	And then they'd never catch the thing.
	You know, so you wondered, you know, if it was able to slip by, you know, whether it really was a real submarine or not.
	But that sighting that you mentioned is very interesting.
	There are also, Jan, reports of things moving under the sea that have been detected by our military at speeds that are absolutely impossible.
	That's the kind of thing I mean, that I'm thinking of, yeah.
	It's unbelievable.
	There's a book that I have, a UFO book, which is about undersea bases, and that's made for some interesting reading.
	It came from South America.
	I've not dug into that too much, but it's fascinating reading.
	I'll tell you what happened to me personally, if I can call it personally.
	I worked at a bank.
	I was doing consulting for a bank, and one of my users that I was dealing with was a youngish guy, and one day he said to me, He's leaving the bank now.
	And I said to him, well, you know, good luck, so forth.
	Now, prior to him leaving, he and I had often discussed UFOs and all sorts of things.
	And he'd always say to me, it's a very fascinating subject and he's always curious about it.
	And then when he left, he called me to one side and he said to me, you know, I'll show you where I'm actually going.
	And he opened his briefcase and he took out a letter and it was a letter of appointment To the National Intelligence Service.
	So I said to him, wow, I didn't know you had these kinds of aspirations.
	He said, no, it's something he's been wanting to do his whole life and so forth.
	So then he said to me, you know, when I'm there, I'm going to do a bit of digging.
	And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
	I'm sure you will.
	And I didn't hear from him for about a year.
	And one day he phoned me and he said to me, you know, we must get together sometime.
	And when we got together and we started talking, he said to me, I actually did do a bit of snooping at National Intelligence.
	And now because he's inside the headquarters, he talks to people.
	And he said to me, you know, here in South Africa, there's a little department in National Intelligence that deals with UFOs.
	There's about five or six people who work there.
	And whenever there's a report of a UFO, they go out in plain clothes and they pretend to be newspaper reporters and so forth.
	And they question the people.
	And then they come back and they write reports.
	And he used to tell me that, and he's told me this many times, he used to say to me, the United States of America has more interest in UFOs than any other country on Earth.
	And that the United States military and government sees itself as the premier technological power on the Earth.
	That would be us, alright.
	Yeah, and he says they want to keep it that way.
	And he says anything but anything that hints at alien technology or anything, they are the first to grab it.
	And he even wanted to tell me that stealth aircraft were being experimented with to test our defenses and all sorts of things.
	And another thing he also said to me was that I must beware of confusing UFO reports with reports of pilotless aircraft.
	He said to me that another thing he came across was that all the air forces of the world are very interested in pilotless aircraft and they've developed these to a pretty high standard.
	We're using them now in Afghanistan.
	But he said to me there are lots of them that are totally classified, you don't even know they exist.
	There was also a big report many years ago, maybe you know something about this, of a crash in South Africa.
	And then, as the story goes, U.S.
	military aircraft coming to South Africa to pick up pieces and bring them back.
	Do you know anything about that?
	Goodness me, Ott.
	At that time I had just gotten onto CompuServe and I actually spent a lot of time digging into that thing because I was... because this is like just on my doorstep.
	It was so weird.
	I've never been able to truly establish what the heck happened.
	I met all kinds of people.
	The whole story is quite long-winded and all sorts of things happen.
	All I can tell you is that there were rumors and there were There were rumors that hit the media, but nobody that I know, I don't have anything truly credible.
	And I met a lot of very weird people who came and said to me, you know, I was at that military hospital and I heard a rumor or something.
	There was somebody who claimed who I met, who was in a UFO club, who said to me that he knew somebody who'd been in the military, who'd seen something or heard something.
	And there is a friend of mine, A close friend of mine, whose father is involved in military intelligence, and that friend of mine swears that this event happened.
	Personally, I have my doubts.
	What I did manage to get hold of, was I managed to get hold of documents, supposedly military documents, relating to the crash.
	Complete with drawings, complete with the Air Force front cover, even signals from intelligence.
	You know those signals that the military sends between units?
	Yes.
	I had all of those things.
	And then when I looked at them closely, because I'd also been in the military myself for a little while, I looked at them, they sort of looked authentic, but they weren't completely authentic.
	And when I had other people look at them, people would point out errors and so forth.
	So, it was to me as if maybe somebody had conducted a hoax of some kind.
	The other thing I heard was the rumors spread so much.
	At the time that this happened, South Africa had quite a large army sitting in Namibia, fighting a border war there between Namibia and Angola.
	And I heard somebody say that he'd been on the border and a high-ranking officer, a colonel, He addressed the troops one day, and he said to them that there is a story going around about a UFO crash, but he said it was enemy disinformation.
	And that was... I could never, I could never, I could never satisfy myself that this event had really taken place.
	What I had wondered was whether somebody had gone to great lengths to stage a hoax And that is as far as I could get it because weird things happened.
	There was a morning when on South African TV we have like a good morning South Africa.
	Yes.
	With somebody pitched up, claimed to be a captain in the Air Force, spoke a lot of nonsense about the incident and then that person disappeared.
	And there were also other people.
	You know, all I can say to you was my final conclusion was that it was a heck of an elaborate hoax.
	But it was the kind of a hoax which no ordinary person could stage, because after all of this nonsense had taken place, somebody in East Germany, it was somebody up in Europe, came out, some kind of scientist came out and claimed To have knowledge of this event in South Africa.
	Jan Jan, it sounds to me like we've got another program to do, you and I. We're out of time.
	We're out of program.
	That's it.
	That's it.
	Listen, my friend, thank you so much for being here.
	What an incredible program.
	We're going to do it again soon.
	OK, wonderful.
	All right.
	You have a good night.
	Good luck answering all your email.
	Thank you very much, Art.
	It was very wonderful being on your show.
	Good day.
	Good day to you.
	I can't buy it.
	Take care.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

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