Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

Nov. 8, 2022 - Viva & Barnes

08:48:02

Emergencies Act Inquiry - Nov. 8, 2022 - Live Stream with Chat - Viva Frei

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Order allowed.
	The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session.
	La Commission sur l 'état d 'agence est maintenant ouverte.
	Good morning.
	Bonjour.
	Another beautiful day in Ottawa.
	Okay.
	We have a, let me guess, another witness.
	We do.
	Okay.
	Good morning, Commissioner.
	Frank Au for the Commission.
	And our next witness is Superintendent Dana Early from the OPP.
	Good morning.
	Superintendent Early, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
	For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
	Dana Early.
	Dana is D-A-N-A.
	Early is E-A-R-L-E-Y.
	Do you swear that the evidence to be given by you to this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
	I do so swear.
	Thank you.
	Good morning, Superintendent Early.
	Good morning.
	It's good to see you again.
	Thank you.
	You as well.
	So you attended an interview with me and my commission colleagues back on the 9th of September?
	Yes, I did.
	And a summary of that interview was prepared afterwards.
	I understand that you recently had an opportunity to review that summary and there's some corrections you'd like to make.
	Yes.
	So if we can bring up that document, it's WTS 6/0/22.
	If we go to page 13. So I understand there are two corrections you like to make on this page.
	And the first correction is at the first paragraph.
	Am I right?
	No, it's actually just the third paragraph in regards to decision making.
	Just wanted to make it clear that ultimate decisions in regards to the operation plan were mine.
	Okay, so...
	The third paragraph that starts with following this call, right?
	Yes.
	So tell us what exactly you want changed.
	There is a sentence there that indicates the direction came from the Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner Harkins.
	That is incorrect.
	The decision to move forward was mine.
	Okay, so that sentence that starts with she informed them that the change in direction came from Commissioner Karik.
	And Deputy Commissioner Harkins should be deleted, right?
	That's correct.
	And I understand that the first sentence that reads currently following this call at 7.06 p.m., Superintendent Early, advise her command table that they should proceed.
	You want that revised as advise her command table that she had decided that they would proceed.
	Am I right?
	That's correct.
	So I thought there was another change you wanted to make to the first paragraph, no?
	No.
	Okay, all right.
	So is there any other corrections you'd like to make?
	No.
	Okay, so we'll have those corrections made, and this will be entered into evidence.
	Now, you are a superintendent with the Ontario Provincial Police?
	That's correct.
	And how many years have you served with the OPP?
	28 years now.
	Did you start your policing career with the OPP?
	I did, yes.
	And back in January, when the Freedom Convoy events began, you were a strategic commander for the West Region.
	Yes, that's correct.
	What areas were covered by the West Region?
	West Region is basically Collingwood all the way down to Windsor.
	All the municipalities in that area that do not have their own police service is the responsibility of West Region OPP.
	And how many superintendents were there?
	For that region?
	There's three superintendents.
	Who are the other two?
	At the time is Superintendent Frankie Campisi and Superintendent Lisa Darling.
	Okay.
	And do all three of you report to a chief superintendent?
	Yes, that's correct.
	Who was that in January?
	It is Chief Superintendent Dwight Thibb.
	Okay.
	And as a superintendent of the West Region, what were your responsibilities back in January of this year?
	As part of my responsibilities, I support four of the 13 detachments that we have in West Region, and also I support the operational support inspector and take on the role of strategic commander.
	Okay.
	And at that time, were you based in London?
	That's correct.
	And I understand that on the 9th of February, you assumed a new role when...
	Deputy Commissioner Harkins appointed you as the critical incident commander in Windsor.
	That's correct.
	I received a call from Deputy Commissioner Harkins on the night of February 9th.
	And we heard from Deputy Chief Crowley yesterday from the Windsor Police Service that you established a joint or unified command with the Windsor Police Service that oversaw the successful resolution of the blockade in Windsor.
	That's correct.
	So we'll come to those events a bit later, but I want to start by asking you about your training and experience that qualified you to take on those roles in January and February.
	Let's begin with your background with the incident command system.
	What kind of training have you received?
	I have been a crisis negotiator for 13 years of my career, and crisis negotiators are used quite often in incidents, so I had experience that way.
	I am an incident commander as well as of 2012, and then in 2017, I was trained to become a critical incident commander.
	And in terms of the courses that you had to attend before you assumed those roles, tell us about that too.
	The Critical Incident Commander is a four-week course where you receive training in regards to larger incidents, how to manage them, communication, the execution, the options.
	You hear several different presentations from your subject matter experts, which include our emergency response team.
	Could I ask you to go a little slower for the interpreters, please?
	Sure.
	My apologies.
	Subject matter experts that would include crisis negotiators, our emergency response team, our tactical rescue unit, our canine units, all options that would be used in a critical incident.
	And which institution offered that course?
	It's through the OPP.
	And what year did you complete?
	2017.
	Were there different levels of training for an incident commander or critical incident commander?
	The Critical Incident Commander with the OPP is somewhat the highest at this point in regards to training.
	And I understand you met some colleagues that you worked with ultimately when you were deployed to Windsor in February.
	Yes, that's correct.
	I took the Critical Incident Command course with now Interim Chief Jason Belair of Windsor Police.
	And now you also took on some leadership training more recently.
	Tell us about that too.
	I was fortunate enough to complete the Canadian Police College Executive Leadership in Policing course, which is a year course.
	And I also finished the Rotman Leadership course just in the fall of 2021.
	And you met another colleague who was to work in the Windsor Incident Command, right?
	That's correct.
	Who was that?
	Inspector Carl DeGraff and I completed the Rotman course together.
	Okay.
	Isn't it true that you not only attended those courses and you had experience as an incident commander and critical incident commander, you also taught courses in that regard?
	Yes, I have debriefed different calls on the incident command course as well as the critical incident command course.
	Now, there are two frameworks that we've heard a little about that, as I understand from our interview, kind of guided you when you approached the situation in Windsor.
	One was the OPP framework for police preparedness for Indigenous critical incidents.
	For those of us who are not familiar with that framework, can you tell us, give us a quick overview of what that is?
	It stresses the importance of communication and a tiered response, almost like a stepladder, that you explore different options amongst during the incident.
	To see what option would be best to safely resolve it.
	An important part of that policy is the fact, as I said, communication, and also the introduction of our provincial liaison team.
	That's a key part of the framework as well.
	Okay, we'll come to talk a little more about that.
	And the other framework is the CACP, or Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, national framework.
	And you mentioned in our interview.
	That that was consistent with the OPP critical policy.
	Tell us more about that.
	That's correct.
	It certainly highlights communication and the different tiered responses, depending on the situation.
	So were you familiar with both frameworks when you took on the role of critical incident commander in February?
	Yes.
	All right.
	Let's turn now to, before we get to your role as the critical incident commander in February, I want to start with your role as the strategic commander.
	For the West region in January.
	So that was when you were still working out of London, Ontario.
	And you talked to us a little bit about your responsibilities as the strategic commander, but what specifically were your involvement with respect to the freedom convoy or the protests traveling through the West?
	At the time, we had numerous slow rolls and protests happening throughout our different municipalities.
	I had oversight on the events, worked with the operational support inspector and each detachment commander to ensure that we had the proper resources to effectively look after the protests or slow rolls that were going through our municipalities.
	Now, when Commissioner Karik testified at the hearing, he told us about a blockade on Highway 42 on around February the 6th.
	Were you familiar with that incident?
	Yes, I was involved in that incident.
	Tell us about your involvement.
	On February 6th, which was a Sunday, we became aware that the protesters had blocked the bridge.
	The Blue Water Bridge in Lambton County.
	As a result, our provincial liaison team, as well as our frontline members, were deployed to the area.
	Provincial liaison team were able to develop a rapport and a relationship with the protesters.
	And ultimately, there was a number of different trucks that weren't able to cross the border at that time.
	And one of them ultimately...
	was a friend of one of the protesters and one of the truck drivers, I believe it was livestock.
	He was traveling with something that needed to be in a certain area by a certain time.
	PLT liaised with the truck driver that was stuck and with the protesters and were able to work out the opening of the bridge.
	So that was a success.
	The bridge did reopen.
	We also learned around that time that That group, or similar to that group of protesters, were planning on doing a slow roll on Highway 402 that week.
	So we liaised with the organizers of the slow roll to try to find out as much information as possible so that we could have the proper resources in place.
	So first, with respect to the incident on the Blue Water Bridge, how long did it take to resolve that event?
	I'd have to make reference to my notes, but I know it was maybe two hours, almost two to three hours.
	So it was really short.
	Yes.
	And was Highway 402 the highway that led to Sarnia, the Blue Water Bridge?
	That's correct.
	And would that be within the OPP jurisdiction, the police?
	Highway 402 is correct.
	Okay.
	Now, you spoke about other slow roll events, and we heard a little bit about that yesterday from Deputy Chief Crowley.
	What other protests or slow rolls were happening in the West Region around that time?
	If memory serves me, we almost had a slow roll in each municipality, but ones that I can recall specifically would be Essex County, Norfolk County, Brant County, South Bruce County, Huron County.
	So there was quite a few.
	And as the strategic commander at that time responsible for these events, what steps did you take to monitor the situation or to prepare for any further escalation of the events?
	Each event was specifically assigned to the detachment commander.
	He or she would then assign an incident commander to have oversight of the specific event happening in their area.
	They would also work with our provincial liaison team to find out as much information from the protesters.
	And we would ensure from a regional level that they had the supports that they needed.
	Now, were you a recipient of the OPP Hendon reports?
	Yes.
	And did you read them regularly?
	Yes, but I focused on the areas that were involving.
	So turning our attention now to Windsor, we heard yesterday that there was a hand-in report on February the 4th that deals specifically with the potential blockade.
	So if I could take you to that report.
	The document number is OPP50825.
	If we go to page 6, please.
	We go down.
	So you see the second bullet says commercial truck drivers and supporters.
	May conduct slow roads on roadways near the Ambassador Bridge over the next three days and may attempt to block bridge on February the 7th.
	So this seems to be, compared to the earlier reports, this seems to be a more specific warning, particular to the bridge and with a date.
	Do you remember if you received this report or read it at around that time?
	I don't recall.
	Okay.
	Do you know what actions, if any, were taken by the OPP to mitigate that risk?
	I can speak to February 7th.
	That's when I became aware through Superintendent Crowley, now interim deputy chief, that the bridge had been blocked.
	I received an email from him.
	I then had a conversation with him, asking him what he needed.
	And at that time, he was looking for information in regards to what was available.
	I said, basically, whatever you needed.
	I think I know the one you're referring to.
	Did you say February the 7th?
	7th.
	But before we get to that, I think there was another email earlier that you were copied on.
	So if I could take you to that earlier email.
	I believe it's dated February the 4th.
	And the document number is WPS501880.
	So for context, I believe this is an email from Chief Superintendent Thipp to Deputy Chief Crowley, and you were copied on that.
	So you see the headings, Windsor Slow Roll slash Bridge Protest.
	So you weren't the direct recipient, but you were copied on this.
	Yes.
	And so in this email, Chief...
	Sip talked about the prospect.
	So we go to the second line.
	He said, should intel be received or action by demonstrators taken to shut down the Ambassador Bridge, don't hesitate to reach out for joint assistance.
	And then you were copied because you were overseeing the emergency response team for the region.
	First of all, what were your responsibilities as...
	For oversight over the emergency response team, what's the emergency response team?
	So as part of the strategic commander, that's one of the teams that I support.
	So it's an oversight in regards to do they have the proper resources, training up to date.
	I work with their team lead in regards to making sure that they have what they need.
	So in this email, it seems like the OPP was taking a kind of wait and see approach.
	Is that fair?
	We were waiting to see what Windsor actually required.
	So in this email, Deputy Chief Crowley was obviously being given my name because of my role as Strategic Commander.
	And beyond waiting for a further request from Windsor, was there anything that, in your view, the OPP could do proactively?
	To mitigate the risk at this point before the blockade materialized?
	Not that I'm aware of.
	Okay.
	Well, let's go then to February the 7th.
	Now, you mentioned an email from Deputy Chief Crowley.
	Yes.
	I believe that email is actually dated February the 8th, if we're thinking about the same email.
	So I'll call up that document WPS 60374.
	Now, is this the email you had in mind?
	Or was there another one?
	There was one prior and we had a conversation as well.
	Okay, so tell us about that earlier exchange.
	It was basically confirming that the bridge had been blocked and that he was looking for an awareness of resources available.
	We then had a conversation.
	I wanted to confirm if he was asking for resources or if he was just trying to figure out options at that time.
	I learned that he was trying to figure out options of what was available.
	And it was at that time that we had decided to send together jointly, we decided to send provincial liaison team members to Windsor to see if they could assist.
	So is this email a follow-up to that earlier exchange?
	It is.
	And so when he was asking you, I know your people are very spread out, but my ask at this point is if we were to need POU, PLT down here, what would availability be?
	So it seems like he's ascertaining the potential availability of OPP resources.
	Absolutely.
	He's looking for options.
	And you mentioned earlier that you were sending some PLT members to Windsor.
	That's correct.
	Was that before or after this email?
	That was immediately after.
	I believe they went down that day because the email is at 2 o 'clock in the morning.
	So I wouldn't have got it until I woke up in the morning.
	So the sending of the two PLT members was a response to this request?
	That's correct.
	What about POU?
	He asked about POU here as well.
	Again, he confirmed that he was just looking for options, so we discussed options.
	So this is February the 8th.
	Now, we heard yesterday that Chief Misuno from the Windsor Police Service...
	I don't think I need to call up that document, but for reference, the document ID is WIN401648.
	And in that letter, Chief Misuno requested a minimum of 100 officers.
	Now, was that request before or after you were appointed as the critical incident commander to Windsor?
	I wasn't appointed until the night of the 9th.
	Okay.
	So probably before.
	And we saw also on February 9th a document prepared by Deputy Chief Crowley.
	Before I take you to that document, I want to take you first to something you said in your interview about the relationship between resource request and planning.
	So, we go to your summary at page 9, please.
	Sorry, counsel, can I get the ID for that document again?
	Yes, it's WTS-6022.
	And Mr. Clerk, I'll be making frequent references to this summary, so you may assist to have that document open.
	So if we go to page 9. So, Superintendent, you'll see under the heading, Relationship Between Resource Request and Planning.
	You told us that when you took command on February the 9th, Windsor Police Service did not know the specific numbers and types of officers it required and that the underground situation on February 9th dictated bringing in additional frontline and traffic officers to ensure public and officer safety.
	OPP accordingly sent as many officers as possible.
	After Superintendent Early arrived in Windsor on the morning of February the 10th and began to develop a plan, she was able to develop more specific numbers and types of resources required to ensure that police had options to respond to various contingencies.
	So I want to show you a document that Deputy Chief Crowley prepared as of the 9th and asked you if that reflects...
	The kind of lack of specific types that you mentioned in the summary.
	And that document is WPS 60610.
	Thank you.
	So we heard from Deputy Crowley yesterday that he prepared this on the 9th.
	When Windsor made the request for 100 officers, we scroll down a bit.
	So it talks about different ships and so on.
	And then there's more about the situation at that time.
	Does this reflect your understanding of the nature of the request that was sent on the 9th?
	I'm not sure if I know what you're asking, but it...
	It reflected what they thought at the time they required.
	So when I arrived and we were able to assess the entire situation together, that's when we started to figure out plans and options and then therefore the resources to support those.
	So I guess what I'm wondering is, how is this kind of request in terms of what was needed different from the kind of request that you would have made?
	To the different POU units across the province, for instance, after you arrived and started developing a plan.
	This specific request that you have posted here is for the front line.
	So POU was in addition to that.
	So I don't know if we could compare the two.
	But when the Unified Command was created, we had a mission and that was to open the bridge to get the flow of traffic back with...
	Officer and public safety being paramount.
	And then that's when we started to develop the plans, which included a POU option.
	Okay.
	If we go back to your interview summary, to that page that we were on before, you see the last sentence of that paragraph.
	She explained that developing an operational plan was essential to ensure that the deployment of resources would be impactful.
	And we solved the blockade.
	Why was it essential?
	Why was an operational plan essential?
	Well, before you request resources or you have officers attend, you need to be able to articulate to them the expectations of the role, why they're coming, and the tasks that they will be given.
	And without a plan and a mission as to what you want to achieve, that would be very hard to do.
	Okay.
	So these are the initial steps before you became the critical incident commander.
	So let's turn our attention now to February the 9th when you got a call from Deputy Commissioner Harkins appointing you as the critical incident commander.
	Tell us about that initial call.
	Deputy Commissioner Harkins called me.
	He asked if I could attend Windsor to assist, that my role would be the CIC of the event, and that it was an urgent situation, so that I would receive the resources that I needed.
	He also alerted me that I had a teleconference that I needed to join within minutes, so the phone call was very quick.
	So there was an urgency that he impressed on you.
	And just to understand the nature of the role of a critical incident commander, we've heard evidence before about the different tiers of command.
	There's the strategic command, there's the operational command, and there's the tactical command.
	Now, you were operating as...
	A strategic commander before this appointment.
	Yes.
	And what is the role of a critical incident commander?
	Is it operating at a strategic or operational level?
	It's an operational level and specifically assigned to an incident.
	So what was the objective of your appointment as the critical incident commander?
	Or for short, I'll just call it the operational commander.
	The mission was to restore the flow of traffic to and from the bridge and into Canada and the U.S. with respecting the Charter of Rights and keeping public and officer safety paramount.
	Now, I understand that you went to Windsor the next day.
	That's correct.
	But on the 9th, you were still in London.
	Yes.
	What time did you get that call from?
	Deputy Harkins?
	It was approximately 7.30, quarter to 8, and then I was on teleconferences until well into the early morning.
	So you got the call in the evening and you started to make some other calls.
	Yes.
	Tell us about those other calls, the initial calls that you made.
	There was a call to my chief of West Region to provide him updates, and he was well aware because the deputy commissioner had contacted him.
	I also had teleconferences with the POU hub and the different team leaders of the POU teams.
	What are the POU hubs?
	They were hubs created that consisted of different POU teams from different services that were being deployed throughout the province to assist with protests.
	And when you said services, are these OPP detachments or are these municipal services as well?
	OPP and municipal.
	How many POU units are there across Ontario, can you say?
	Oh, I can't.
	Sorry.
	I can tell you who was on the calls or who I dealt with, but it included obviously our team.
	It included Hamilton at the time and Waterloo and ultimately London assisted as well and RCMP.
	So you reach out to the POU units in these municipalities that evening?
	Yes, so the Deputy Commissioner had advised me that the teleconference was already set, it was already scheduled, and that I would be joining them.
	And they would learn that I was going to be the CIC and Unified Command and heading to Windsor.
	What did you find out from the teleconference about the availability of these POU teams?
	We discussed numbers and what was available.
	We discussed relative, like...
	To the incident, you know, in regards to when could they attend, who was available to assist with planning.
	So those were the basis of the conversations.
	Was there a request to deploy those units on that evening?
	Yes.
	What did you ask for?
	I asked for the planners.
	So each team identified basically a team leader, a planner.
	So I asked for the planners to join me in Windsor the next day.
	Now, at this stage, you didn't have a plan yet, right?
	Correct.
	So, if we go back to what we talked about earlier, about the need for a plan to inform the asking of resources, what did you ask for and what could reasonably be expected at this stage?
	I needed them to become very familiar with the incident and all the details of the incident and then create a plan.
	What about numbers?
	Well, I needed to know what would be available.
	But again, it wasn't until they had a plan that they would say that this plan requires this many officers.
	Okay.
	So you talked about how you spoke to the chief.
	I believe that's Chief Sip.
	That's correct.
	You were engaged in these teleconferences about the POU availability.
	Who else did you call?
	I believe it was two teleconferences with the chief and two other teleconferences, again, with POU hubs.
	What about, did you make contact with Windsor Police Service at all?
	I did.
	I spoke with Deputy Chief Crowley.
	And tell us about that conversation.
	He provided an oversight and situational awareness for me in regards to what they were dealing with at the moment.
	We talked about logistics, obviously, when I would be arriving.
	I gave him an overview of the teleconferences I had been on in regards to POU.
	If I could take you to another OPP document, it's OPP404540.
	I understand that that night, the last thing you did that night at 11.59pm, you sent an email to your superiors summarizing the situation in Windsor as you've gathered.
	So I'm taking you to that email.
	If we could go to page 14, please.
	Go down.
	So, February 9th, I think I was wrong on the time, it's at 23.58, so two minutes before midnight, you sent an email to Harkins and DeMarco.
	Who's DeMarco?
	That is Deputy Commissioner DeMarco.
	Okay.
	How many Deputy Commissioners are there?
	There are three, and there's a provincial commander as well.
	Okay.
	So, you sent an email to these two deputies.
	And you summarized the situation as you found them in Windsor.
	We scroll down further.
	There are many bullet points.
	I want you to help us unpack the situation a bit based on these points.
	What did you learn?
	What's the situation on the ground in Windsor?
	I learned, obviously, about the numbers, what they were dealing with in regards to attendance, as well as vehicles, the types of vehicles.
	I also learned the area that they had.
	Kind of blocked the length of it, where it is located in the city.
	I also learned about an arrest that was made.
	So there was a person who had jumped the curb and into the crowd.
	That person obviously was charged and arrested with dangerous drive and that the crowd became very agitated when the arrest occurred.
	And they actually took the opportunity to expand the area that they had been in.
	I learned, too, from Deputy Chief Crowley that the crowd itself was somewhat unorganized and disjointed, hard to kind of figure out exactly what they wanted or to communicate or negotiate with them.
	And at that time, as well, he explained that...
	There had been a number of transport trucks and vehicles on the bridge, but they had all been removed at that point.
	So I made the decision that I asked Staff Sergeant Jamie Smith of Essex OPP, so he would be the closest incident commander, to attend the command post for the evening.
	I also asked that our situational reports be implemented.
	So it's basically a template.
	We introduced those to the command post, and I asked for those to be provided to me every two hours until my arrival.
	And then they continued while we were there.
	So that's what you did that first night.
	That's correct.
	If we go back to your summary, I want to take you to page three.
	Because you spoke to us about this email, and then at the end of that paragraph...
	You said Superintendent Early nonetheless believed that a policing solution to the demonstration was possible.
	What did you mean by that, the policing solution, in your mind?
	I still believed and was hopeful that negotiations could occur and that we could develop a rapport and a relationship with the protesters through our provincial liaison teams.
	Was that...
	An approach informed by the two frameworks that you told us about.
	That's correct.
	Now, before we go to the next day, earlier that day, before you got the call from Deputy Harkins, I think you told us in the interview that you watched a morning press conference where the mayor, the mayor of Windsor, Mayor Dilkens, Requested resources without specifying the numbers.
	Do you remember that?
	Yeah, I don't remember specifically watching it, but I do know that a request was submitted.
	Right.
	And during our interview, you shared your perspectives on making public announcements of this nature.
	Tell us about your view on this.
	In regards to specific numbers requested at incidents?
	No, about making...
	Public announcements.
	I think we've heard some evidence that normally the requests for resources go from one chief to another, from chief to chief.
	And it's not typical that public announcements by politicians were made and you shared your perspective on this kind of public announcement.
	So I'm just...
	Hoping that you could enlighten us.
	Okay.
	It's been my experience that when any municipal service requires our assistance, no matter what the incident, the request needs to go from their chief to our commissioner.
	The commissioner's command team then reviews the request and deploys the requested resources.
	So to hear it come from a politician was different from my experience.
	And after you became the critical incident commander, did you take any steps to change the approach or any kind of media strategy that you adopted?
	I respect the fact that any...
	Counsel or mayor, they can have their own press conferences and release information.
	But I urged Windsor Police Service to work with the mayor's office to make sure that our messages are consistent.
	And was any further public announcements made for resources after you assumed the role of critical incident commander?
	Not that I'm aware of.
	Now, in this case, the announcement on the 9th.
	Did not specify a particular number, how many officers were needed.
	Do you have any view on whether those numbers should be made publicly in a request?
	In my opinion, I do not believe that they should be made publicly.
	Why not?
	It jeopardizes perhaps the public and police officer safety by letting the public know the amount of officers that are attending may lead to people.
	Then bolstering their protests or whatever that looks like if they know the tactics or perhaps the amount of officers that are attending an incident.
	Okay, so let's go now to the next day, February 10th.
	I understand that you had an early morning call with Deputy Harkins, right?
	Correct, and Deputy DeMarco.
	And Deputy DeMarco.
	Tell us what was said in that morning call.
	They wanted to make sure that I had started implementing a team, putting a team in place.
	Obviously, I told them that I was on the road, I was heading to Windsor, and they indicated that whatever resources I needed, they would be provided.
	Was anything said about Windsor being a priority?
	Yes.
	Tell us about that.
	They stressed to me that Windsor was my priority and I needed to focus solely on Windsor and that it was a priority for the province.
	Did they explain why Windsor was a priority?
	No.
	Now, if I could take you to page two of the summary.
	Okay.
	So if we go to the third paragraph.
	Near the middle of the paragraph, do you see the sentence that starts with, during a February 10th, 8.30am call?
	Yes.
	So it says, Deputy Commissioners Harkins and DeMarco again advised Superintendent Early that Windsor was the priority and that it was urgent to resolve the blockade.
	Superintendent Early understood that the resolution was urgent because the bridge closure was having massive economic impacts, including job layoffs on Windsor.
	Ontario and Canada, that the crowd of protesters at the blockade was increasing in size and that the public and officer safety risks were escalating.
	Now you understood that to be the case.
	Where did that understanding come from?
	It was part of the conversation, but in regards to the increase in size, the economic impacts, the risk to public and officer safety, that was from my awareness from the teleconferences I had been on and discussions with Deputy Chief Crowley.
	So you had this call at 8.30, and I believe by 9 a.m. you had your mission statement written.
	Yes.
	So if we go to the summary at page 5, we excerpted your mission statement, I believe from your notes.
	Thank you.
	And it reads, the OPP and our policing partners will keep the peace, enforce legislation, establish and maintain the safe flow of traffic and respecting individuals' charter rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of speech, with public and officer safety being paramount.
	Why was the mission statement or the drafting of a mission statement such a priority for you?
	It is the goal of any team member, no matter what uniform you're wearing, your rank, your role in regards to the team.
	That is our goal during the incident.
	And did this version of the statement continue to be?
	The mission as events unfolded.
	Yes.
	So I understand that a plan was finalized by the end of the day on the 11th and the plan was implemented on the 12th.
	Was this the same statement that appeared in that ultimate plan?
	Yes.
	How did you come up with this plan?
	How did you draft it?
	Based on the situation, right?
	That's where your mission comes from and what your goal is, what you're trying to resolve.
	That's how your mission statements come through.
	And obviously, as a CIC in the training that we receive, mission statements and the importance of them are discussed.
	And there are references to respecting individuals' charter rights.
	How did you intend to do that?
	Absolutely.
	Well, by obviously giving them...
	The right to peaceful assembly and to honour their freedom of speech.
	We tried to do that through communications with our provincial liaisons team.
	So that was 9am.
	What time did you arrive in Windsor?
	I think it was approximately 10. I had to stop and pick up my scribe as well.
	So I think it was around 10, 10.30.
	I'd have to refer to my notes.
	And what was a scribe supposed to do when you're the critical incident commander?
	So the scribe is a very important role.
	She took all of my notes for me.
	So she captured the majority of conversations and timings, people's phone numbers, whatnot.
	So the different volumes of notes that we receive in disclosure, those were the scribe's notes, not your notes.
	That's correct.
	Okay.
	So you went to Windsor and you met with the command team from the Windsor Police Service.
	Yes.
	Tell us about that meeting.
	What kind of reception did you receive?
	Very welcoming.
	Because of the relationships I knew, as I said, Deputy Chief at the time, Deputy Chief Blair, as well as Inspector DeGraff, they then introduced me to other members of their command post.
	Obviously, it was referred to as the EOC here as well.
	I met everybody.
	They were very welcoming.
	They appreciated the support and the assistance and the resources that the OPP was providing.
	And they also welcomed the experience that our organization has in regards to major prolonged events.
	Was any decision made at that initial meeting about how the WPS and the OPP would be working together?
	Certainly it was right off the start, it was a unified command.
	They ultimately respected that I would have final say on a lot of the plans because of the amount of resources that we were bringing and that it included.
	But everything before it was decided was always referred to by both myself and the CIC from WPS.
	So yesterday we heard from Deputy Crowley.
	I think he described the relationship as...
	I'm trying to look for his description.
	He described the integration as seamless, and he talked about how the OPP and WPS commands would at times be stepping forward and back.
	Were you here when he testified?
	I watched it.
	You watched it.
	Do you agree with that description?
	It was seamless.
	And we supported each other.
	It was a remarkable team effort.
	And in your interview with us, at page three of your summary, you referred to this high degree of trust and confidence.
	Tell us more about that.
	As I mentioned, Windsor Police respected the experience and the skill set that the OPP was bringing to the table due to the numerous events we've experienced as an organization in regards to critical incidents and protracted critical incidents in particular.
	So with that...
	That's where the trust and the respect came through.
	But at the same time, we weren't able to do what we did if it wasn't for the local knowledge and the networks and the partnerships that Windsor Police already had in existence.
	Now, I think Deputy Crowley referred to this command structure as unified command.
	And in your interview with us, you referred to it as joint command.
	Are they the same thing?
	Pretty much, yes.
	We've heard other terms in Ottawa, integrated command.
	Like, what's your understanding if there are any differences between integrated, joint, or unified?
	Really, I think to explain ours, unified would articulate it best.
	Okay.
	And in terms of the expertise that the OPP was bringing, I think yesterday Deputy Crowley referred specifically to Maybe planning and specifically the POU planning.
	Can you elaborate on that?
	Yeah, so when I arrived in Windsor, I requested a subject matter expert in regards to POU planning, Inspector Jason Unin.
	I contacted him and I requested he attend to offer his expertise in regards to a plan.
	Sorry, name again?
	Inspector Jason Unin.
	Okay.
	Well, let's talk about the command team then, because after you arrived in Windsor, I guess one of the first things you did was to assemble a command table.
	Yes.
	And during our interview, you said that you wanted broad representation at the command table and subject matter experts in all the essential areas to ensure that those areas are covered.
	What are the major areas that you had to cover?
	Those areas consisted of traffic, crime, provincial liaisons teams, media, and logistics and resources.
	In addition to that, we also were able to set up a staging area.
	So there was a team that was in charge of the staging area as well.
	What about intelligence?
	Absolutely.
	Yes, intelligence as well.
	And how was intelligence represented at this command table?
	They deployed a team leader to sit in the emergency operations center with us and a team member as well.
	So they were constantly feeding us any intel that they were getting.
	And I'd like to mention, too, all those subject matter experts that I just listed off there, it wasn't just OPP, but Windsor had the same representation.
	So, for example, in Intel, we had OPP Intel as well as Windsor Intel in the command post with us.
	So you had subject matter experts from both OPP and Windsor Police Service represented at the table?
	Correct.
	And they included intelligence.
	I think you mentioned PLT.
	Yes.
	POU, you mentioned Inspector Yunnan.
	Who was responsible for logistics?
	Inspector Wendy Burrow from OPP as well as Inspector Jen Crosby from Windsor Police Service.
	What about other agencies such as the CBSA?
	Yes.
	So CBSA was included in the command post.
	They had a representative there, a team leader, as well as the Windsor Fire had representation and Windsor Emergency Services, so paramedics.
	Why was it important for these other agencies to be included at the command table?
	All of those part...
	Everybody who had a part of our command post provided us with different options, right?
	And options are very much needed in an incident like this.
	So it's important to create an environment that's inclusive and communication is key so that everybody could provide ideas to resolve the situation effectively.
	Because the situation itself was very dynamic and fluid, we wanted to make sure that Everything was covered.
	If you think about fire or EMS, that they were in the loop just in case we needed their assistance, which at times we did.
	I understand you also set up a system where you had alternates so that you can go to sleep.
	Yes.
	Who was your alternate?
	Superintendent Derek Needham.
	And was there a similar system for the Windsor Incident Command?
	Yes.
	And who are those two?
	So Inspector Carl de Graff worked days with me, and then at night it was Deputy Chief Crowley.
	Why is it important to have these alternates?
	To go and rest your head for a little bit, and obviously just to provide some relief.
	Okay.
	So, so far we talked about the team at the operational level, the command table that we just talked about.
	I want to ask you now about the relationship between the operational level functioning.
	And the strategic leadership.
	So on the Windsor side, who was the strategic commander?
	I believe you would have to confirm with them, but I saw that the Deputy Chief Blair.
	Right.
	And would the Chief of the Windsor Police Service also be at the strategic leadership level?
	Yes.
	What about the OPP?
	Who were the strategic leaders?
	For West Region, Superintendent Campisi looked after that role, but it would have also included our chief, Chief Thib, and then the OPP command as well, commissioners and deputy commissioners.
	So Commissioner Kareek and Deputy Harkins.
	Now, during the interview, you spoke to us about the importance for the strategic leadership to give the operational commanders autonomy.
	Yes.
	Tell us more about that.
	Yes.
	The autonomy that is required is very important because decisions need to be made in a very timely manner when dealing with critical incidents.
	So that really highlights the importance.
	They also know and can trust in not only the experience the team has, but the training and the subject matter experts, the skill set that they bring, so that they know that those decisions being made are the best options for the situation and what's happening.
	Help us understand why is autonomy connected to timeliness of decision making?
	You need to make sure that a decision is made.
	The failure to make a decision can almost be just as bad as making an improper decision.
	So that's why the timeliness is very important, right?
	And these situations, things are happening minute by minute.
	You need to be able to make decisions based on your awareness.
	And the CIC has the best situational awareness to make those decisions.
	Why was it the CIC who had the best situational awareness?
	You are in the midst of it.
	You have all the intel coming in.
	You are there.
	You have all the feedback from your subject matter expert.
	So that's why you have the utmost situational awareness.
	During your time in Windsor as the critical incident commander, did you enjoy...
	The kind of autonomy that you expected from the strategic leadership?
	I did, and I appreciated it.
	How was your relationship with the Windsor strategic leadership?
	The same.
	They respected it from their command in the command post as well as mine.
	Did you experience any interference at all, improper interference, with your decision making as the operational commander?
	No.
	What about the city of Windsor or the mayor's office?
	What was your relationship with those entities?
	Very little.
	Windsor police dealt with them and liaised with the city.
	Okay.
	Okay, so we've now covered the command team and the relationship with the strategic leadership.
	I want to talk to you now about the plan.
	We talked a bit about the plan, and I understand that you came to Windsor on the 10th, but by the end of the day on the 11th, you had a plan finalized and ready for action.
	Am I right?
	That's correct.
	How did that come about?
	The remarkable team that I had.
	So with the mission that was set out, that everybody was very much aware of, the expectations were clearly explained to the officers and the subject matter experts in regards to what was needed.
	And that's how plans came together.
	Now, let's talk about the different elements of that overall plan.
	During the interview, you mentioned many sub-plans.
	And you said those are necessary as part of the contingency planning.
	And they involve areas like traffic, towing, mass arrest, prisoner transport, and some of the other areas that we talked about, intelligence, PLT, POU, and so on.
	I want to ask you specifically...
	About three of those areas.
	And I want to start by asking you about the PLT element.
	So through the PLT planning, I understand that you came to learn something about the protesters group, about the leadership, as well as about potential counter-protest.
	Yes.
	So let's talk first about your understanding of the leadership.
	What did you learn through the PLT planning during those two days?
	I learned through PLT that the protesters themselves were described as just disjointed.
	They had different goals.
	It was explained to me that the PLT was really dealing with three different groups within the protesters.
	And that was causing concern as well as it was a challenge for our PLT to develop rapport or to really get anywhere because the groups themselves were not agreeing.
	I also learned from PLT of counter-protests as well and the concern for that.
	So they had had discussions with an associate or a member from the auto union, and he expressed his displeasure with the protests.
	I was very grateful for the rapport and the relationship that PLT was able to develop with him.
	And through that, we asked for time for his patience.
	If I could take you to your summary.
	Because I wanted to ask you about that incident.
	Okay.
	If we go to page 11. So this is, you talked about this incident involving the president of the local auto workers union chapter.
	Do you see in the middle of the paragraph?
	Yes, I do.
	CLT informed superintendent early.
	That David Cassidy, the president of the local auto workers union chapter, Unifor, local 444, claimed that he had spoken to Ontario Premier Doug Ford and that he was willing to bring auto workers to the blockade site to forcibly clear out protesters by Monday, February the 14th, if police had not cleared the blockade by that date.
	What kind of danger does this pose to your team as you were planning for action?
	This is extremely concerning as a CIC, and it was just other options now that I had to consider that not only the protesters perhaps would not like the plan of action, but we may have counter protesters attending as well that would create significant issues for public and officer safety.
	So was this an example of how you incorporated PLT?
	In planning for contingencies.
	Yes.
	Let me ask you now about the POU planning.
	So you mentioned earlier that Inspector Yunin was in charge of that aspect.
	Yes.
	And I understand that on, was it the 10th or the 11th, that you had a number of meetings with him and he advised you.
	So let's go to your summary.
	Maybe that will help us both.
	Page six of your summary.
	So you see that at 4.21pm, you had a meeting with Inspector Yunnan, and he advised you that a mass removal of protesters would be neither safe nor sustainable.
	Tell us more about that discussion.
	So this is after he had arrived in Windsor.
	He obviously had time to meet with all the other team leaders from the PLU teams, and as well take a look at the situation itself.
	He understood.
	Because it was such a long area, the three to four kilometers that they had occupied, that it would not be safe, as he stated in my summary, to clear the entire area all at once.
	So with that, he provided options to clearing out different sections of the protest area.
	And did you agree with his assessment?
	I did.
	Was this an example of how you, as the operational commander, deferred to your subject matter experts?
	Yes.
	The third area I want to ask you about in terms of planning is the involvement of the intelligence experts.
	Was it your objective to have your operation be intelligence-led?
	Yes, I mean, intelligence does need to be considered in regards to what we're finding on open source or wherever the intelligence is coming from.
	And it was important to hear also from both teams, so from the OPP intelligence as well as Windsor intelligence, because of the different networks that both teams had, they were providing us with a better situational awareness.
	So in terms of the tools available to your team, as I understand it, in addition to open source, which you mentioned, You also was getting some help from the U.S. partners?
	Yes.
	Tell us about that.
	That was mainly through Windsor Police Service because of the relationship they had with intel through the states.
	And in terms of other resources available to you, I understand that there was a drone that was made available?
	Yes.
	As well as pull cameras from the CBSA?
	That's correct.
	And even a helicopter on the day of the operation?
	Yes.
	Tell us about that.
	Again, just to provide current and up-to-date situational awareness so that we could have an idea of exactly what was going on in this very dynamic situation.
	We've also heard yesterday about the presence of children during the blockade.
	And how did intelligence inform your planning about this aspect?
	I would say that was a concern of mine that if we had to use the plan of action that I wanted the lowest amount of children to be there.
	Intelligence was able to provide me with areas that they had detected where the children were.
	Hanging out or were present in the protest.
	They were also able to tell me that because of their intelligence, because of their overwatch, that the majority of the children went home at night and very little of them stayed overnight.
	And so that led me to obviously looking at the option of going first thing in the morning with any plan of operation if needed.
	Was that the plan, to have the action begin early in the morning?
	Yes.
	And what considerations led you to that decision?
	Knowing from intel that they had not observed any children overnight and that when children were present, it was usually not till later in the day.
	What about the size of the crowd?
	Absolutely.
	And certain times of night.
	So the crowd, as in my summary, and I know Deputy Chief Crowley spoke to it, it would get more unruly certain times of night.
	And so we had to consider that.
	And numbers were higher at certain times at night.
	But as it got colder and the later it got in the evening, a lot of people did return home.
	So by considering an early morning operation, that again would decrease, hopefully decrease the number of protesters that we were dealing with.
	So we've now talked about the different elements or sub-plans within the overall plan.
	Turning our attention now to the overall plan.
	If we go to your summary at page six.
	And we go down, that's right, to the section approval of plans, the second paragraph.
	So on February the 11th, Superintendent Early also approved an overall operational plan titled Operations Plan, Freedom Convoy, Windsor Ambassador Bridge.
	The plan stated that it contemplated an escalation in police response that is a considered and measured approach.
	And that events associated with Ambassador Bridge blockade convoys shall be addressed at the lowest competent level in an effort to effect a peaceful resolution.
	So earlier you mentioned in the context of discussing the frameworks, I think you talked about the measured approach, the use of PLT to engage and all of that.
	I want to ask you specifically to explain About this concept of addressing events at the lowest competent level in the context of a kind of ladder or escalation.
	What does that mean, the lowest competent level?
	The less invasive, the less...
	So lowest competent level would be, the prime example would be our provincial liaison team.
	Being able to discuss the removal of protesters for them to leave on their own would be ideal.
	So that's what you would try first?
	Absolutely.
	And then if that did not meet with success, then you escalate.
	Yes.
	What would be the next letter or the next step of the letter?
	I think jointly, along with PLT, we are also using a media strategy to make sure that we were educating everybody in regards to that it was unlawful to be there, that there was other options that they could express their freedom of speech.
	So there was the media attached at the same time as provincial liaison teams were trying to develop rapport with the protesters.
	And then if that didn't work?
	So next steps, we looked for different options in regards to enforcement.
	I do know that I had conversations with Windsor about their bylaws.
	There was a number of different parking bylaws in that area.
	so we learned that the protesters would park on side streets and then attend the protest their parking on side streets were illegal so their bylaw enforcement was then deployed to the area so a number of different tickets were given out to the vehicles as well as some were towed so that's just another level um to let protesters know that they aren't What's the next step up?
	Are not independent.
	All of these things are continuing.
	So even as cars are being towed by bylaw, we're still trying to have negotiations and develop rapport with the protesters through PLT.
	We're still using media to get that message out.
	The next step would be enforcement.
	So we heard yesterday that even during the...
	The enforcement phase, attempts were still being made to allow some protesters to continue to protest, perhaps on the sidewalk outside the exclusion zone.
	Can you tell us more about that?
	So the set area or the operational area was certainly explained through our media strategy, through the PLT, that people needed to be removed from there or remove themselves.
	And then other options throughout the city are really available, any public area.
	We have to keep in mind, though, that there are private businesses as well, and they wouldn't welcome protesters.
	So we had to make sure that we educated them.
	Okay, so by the end of the day on February the 11th, I understand you approve this plan?
	That's correct.
	And were you satisfied that you had received all of the necessary resources by then to implement the plan the next day?
	Yes.
	And the plan then was to implement the action on the early morning on the 12th?
	Correct.
	So I want to take you now to some specific events.
	That unfolded on the 11th while you were making these plans.
	Okay.
	I understand that sometime in the afternoon while you were working on your plan, things were happening on the ground.
	And specifically, there was a kind of perceived breakthrough with the PLT team, right?
	Yes.
	Tell us what happened.
	One of the protesters had approached.
	Our provincial liaison team and stated that if they had received a letter from the government indicating that the government was willing to meet with them, that they would leave.
	So, PLT brought this to my attention immediately.
	I then asked for assistance through my command team to see if the government would agree to this and to see if this letter could be produced.
	In our interview, you described this as a kind of breakthrough because this was the first substantial request that the PLT team received from the protesters.
	Yes, it was very hopeful.
	So if we go to your summary at page 12. So the second paragraph at 4.25pm, that's when you spoke to Commissioner Karik about this request?
	Correct.
	And then by 5.29pm, A draft letter was already approved.
	That's correct.
	That's remarkably quick within hours.
	Yes.
	What happened during those hours?
	Quite a bit of back and forth in regards to just clarity as to what Mr. Neufeld was asking.
	And then, of course, it was the commissioner's command team who assisted in getting the letter so quickly, but it certainly demonstrated that we were trying our best to...
	You know, to get the protesters what they were asking for.
	You were still optimistic about the lowest competent level?
	Yes, yes I was.
	Okay, so at 5:30, you took part in a teleconference with some of the strategic leadership and you learn that, so if we go down further the page, so near the middle of that paragraph,
	starting at 5:30, you see the reference to Superintendent Alakas informed call participants that PLT would be providing a letter to the Ottawa protesters that was similar to the letter from the provincial government to the Windsor protesters, right?
	Correct.
	So now, Acting Superintendent Bowdoin has testified at this hearing a week or so earlier.
	Yes.
	He told us perhaps the best way to summarize this evidence is if I take you to his summary.
	Okay.
	Can we go to WTS 6037, please?
	So this is the interview summary of Inspector Bowden.
	Okay.
	If we go to page four.
	Go down.
	So you see that on February the 11th, the same day you were dealing with this breakthrough in Windsor.
	On February 11th, 2022, Inspector Bowden met virtually with Mr. Stewart and Mr. Hutchinson again.
	The plan at that point was to offer a meeting in exchange for demonstration leaders demanding that the trucks exit downtown Ottawa and denounce any criminal activity.
	Inspector Bowden...
	Then brief Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson was in agreement with the plan.
	Later that day, Inspector Bowden also exchanged emails with OPP Superintendent Alakis about the actions being taken in Windsor and what kind of reaction that might create among the demonstrators in Ottawa.
	So things were happening in Ottawa and you were dealing with rapidly developing situations in Windsor.
	Yes.
	So going back to your summary, this...
	superintendent-elect is about this development in Ottawa.
	Remember the middle of the paragraph?
	Yes.
	So what the evidence given by Inspector Bowden, does that accord with your understanding on the 11th at around 5:30?
	Yes.
	And then if we go down the page...
	A series of meetings starting at around 6.17pm, continuing to about 7.06pm, a series of meetings between you and your command team, as well as between you and your strategic leadership at the OPP took place.
	Can you take us through those series of meetings?
	Yes.
	After the call at approximately 5.30 that included Superintendent Lalakis, I made the decision that perhaps we need to delay what was happening in Windsor because of the influence it could have in Ottawa.
	I then had conversations with the Strategic Commanders, Deputy Commissioner Harkins and Commissioner Karik, and learned...
	They reminded me that I did not need to act in my strategic commander role, that I needed to focus on Windsor.
	And it was during that conversation that they said, are you ready to go?
	Is your plan ready?
	Do you have the resources?
	Will the plan itself emphasize public and officer safety?
	I said yes to that, and then I changed my mind and decided to continue with my plan.
	Realizing that I didn't know the intimate knowledge of what was going on in Ottawa because my focus had to be Windsor.
	Right.
	So going back to your initial concern when you were reconsidering implementing the plan the next day, what implications did you think the action in Windsor may have in Ottawa?
	What were those concerns?
	That it might agitate things there.
	And at the same time, I had to, again, my focus had to be on Windsor.
	So if we didn't go forward with the plan and prolonged allowing the protesters to continue, what would that mean for Windsor?
	And that was my priority.
	And then after you spoke to your command team, you had these discussions with the strategic leadership.
	And that included Commissioner Kareek, right?
	Correct.
	And Deputy Commissioner Harkins.
	Yes.
	In that discussion, that discussion between the strategic leadership and your role as an operational commander, help us understand what was the strategic input and how that affected your decision ultimately as the operational commander.
	It was a reminder that I did not have all the good situational awareness of what was happening in Ottawa.
	They did.
	And that my focus needed to be...
	On Windsor and I could tell them without a doubt that the plan was ready.
	The officers were ready.
	We had enough resources.
	We had tried the stepped approach and we were not getting anywhere.
	Of course, I was hopeful about the letter because at this time it had not been delivered yet.
	But any CIC will tell you that you have your plan, your resources ready.
	One of the best options would be not to deploy it because protesters left on their own.
	So I was still hopeful because the letter hadn't been delivered yet.
	Right.
	So by 7.06pm, what was your final decision?
	That we would be, if needed, if the letter was not successful, that we would be launching the next morning our operational plan.
	Now, this is the paragraph that you made the correction when we began today's examination.
	And the correction you made...
	Was to the effect that it was your decision as opposed to a decision made by the strategic leadership.
	Correct.
	Why is that important to you?
	Because all those decisions moving forward in regards to Windsor and the plant, they were all my decisions.
	Okay.
	So after this decision was made at 8 p.m., if we go down the page, at 8 p.m., the letter that was previously approved was now signed by Minister Jones, and it was distributed to the protesters.
	What effect, if any, did it have, that distribution of the letter?
	Very little.
	Very little.
	It was disappointing.
	And tell us about what was going on by then with the protesters.
	Well, because of the time of day, we had seen this throughout the week.
	That was kind of the heavier times for numbers of people.
	Somewhat I would describe as a party atmosphere was happening from usually 8 o 'clock on during the evenings, and this was no different.
	So the party atmosphere had certainly began.
	And again, it was just very disappointing that the letter had little effect, although I appreciated all the efforts getting the letter.
	That wasn't what you were hoping for?
	No.
	So now was it time to escalate up the letter?
	Yes.
	Okay, so that takes us to the end of the day on the 11th.
	My colleague, Mr. Commissioner, my colleague, Ms. Hederali will continue the examination with the events the following day.
	Okay, thank you.
	Is this a good time for the morning break and we can come back in 15 minutes?
	It would be.
	Okay, so we'll take the morning break, come back in 15 minutes.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, sir.
	The commission is in recess for 15 minutes.
	La commission en la bae, booking as minutes.
	Thank you.
	Order all the other.
	The Commission has reconvened.
	Okay, go ahead.
	Good morning, Superintendent Early.
	Good morning.
	My name is Sajida Hederali.
	I'm Commission Counsel, and I will be asking you some questions this morning.
	Great, thank you.
	I'm going to continue where my colleague left off on February 11th.
	A lot of things.
	On that day, the Ontario Superior Court of Justice also granted an injunction prohibiting a blockade on the Ambassador Bridge.
	Can you explain briefly how you used this injunction and if you found it helpful in clearing the blockade?
	The injunction was another tool that could be considered by myself and my team.
	We also made sure that the injunction was included in the media strategy so that everyone was aware that it existed.
	And so that's how it was used.
	I saw it as a tool.
	I'd like to pull up your notes please at OPP 404551.
	If we go down to page 9, there is a note at 4:58pm that says protesters are getting ready to leave now that injunction stands, intel from crowd.
	What was the source of this intelligence?
	That was coming from some of the officers from the front line, as well as perhaps the, and I can't recall exactly.
	But it was being discussed amongst the crowd.
	And so it says that protesters are getting ready to leave.
	Did some leave because of the injunction?
	Very little, if any at all.
	I can't recall.
	On February 11th, there was also a province-wide emergency declared by Premier Ford under the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act.
	How did that impact the blockade?
	Again, we used it as part of our media strategy.
	We made sure that people were aware of what it meant to them if you were protesting.
	We actually did up information pamphlets for the crowd that explained some of the consequences of the act and had provincial liaison teams distribute those.
	But again, some did leave as a result, others did not.
	Did you find that one of these two tools, the emergency measures or the injunction, was more or less useful than the other?
	Did they work in conjunction?
	Can you just explain a little more?
	I would say they worked in conjunction.
	And as I mentioned several times, the situation being so dynamic that a lot of options are useful.
	And so I saw both of them as tools, as options for us.
	Great.
	So we talked a little bit earlier about resources that were necessary for the plan to be implemented on the 12th.
	Yes.
	One of the things that the plan required is towing capacity.
	Yes.
	Correct?
	So where did you obtain tow trucks?
	So towing was included in our traffic plan, and knowing that we may have to have an action of operation and remove vehicles, that obviously had to be considered.
	Windsor Police Service has a contract with a local towing company who made their tow trucks available.
	And also because we weren't sure the exact numbers of what would need to be towed, we had the option of tow trucks come in from Detroit.
	So first, for the local company that the Windsor Police Service had a contract with, was there any issues with their willingness to assist in the context of the protests?
	No, there was not.
	And as for the tow trucks that came from Detroit, I'd like to pull up WPS 501090, please.
	This is an email from Chief Menuzo to Deputy Chief Belair that forwards an email from the Michigan government.
	In there, we see that Michigan doesn't have state resources to offer, but are willing to put the Windsor Police Service in touch with private contractors.
	And as you can see...
	Chief Minuzu says they have no machinery or tow trucks to offer.
	Please let the team know there is no assistance in tow trucks or machinery from the U.S. Were you made aware of the fact that the state didn't have tow trucks to offer?
	Not that specific detail, but I do know that the inspector in charge of the traffic and towing plan had made connections with...
	Perhaps the contractors that they mentioned to arrange for tow trucks to be on standby.
	And when did you obtain the tow trucks from Michigan?
	They came, I believe they came the morning of the 12th.
	And I understand that they weren't used in the end?
	Correct.
	When did they leave?
	That day.
	I understand that the blockade was only cleared on the following day?
	That's correct.
	Why were the trucks sent back to the U.S. if the blockade wasn't cleared yet?
	The area that we were able to clear on the 12th was significant, was more than we anticipated.
	And so the area that we needed to continue to clear on the 13th did not have a large amount of vehicles.
	So we were confident that the tow company from Windsor would be able to support what we needed.
	As for other resources that were required, I understand that you also arranged for road barriers to hold areas that were cleared?
	That's correct.
	What did you get to use as road barriers?
	What kind of resources?
	Windsor police were able to use their, obviously, the connections with the city to use large trucks.
	And as well, they had a certain amount of cement barriers that were available to them.
	And then we worked through our partnership with MTO to work with one of their contractors to bring in more cement barriers.
	Were there any issues in securing any of these resources?
	uh no So we also talked earlier about the officers that you needed to carry out the plan.
	I understand there were frontline officers, POUs, etc.
	I understand that you also had RCMP POU officers?
	Correct.
	Do you know how many RCMP officers were deployed in Windsor?
	I'd have to refer to my notes, but I believe it was a POU team.
	Consisting of approximately 40 and then an additional, they send their emergency response teams with their POU.
	So I think there was an additional 10 there.
	Then we also had assistance from the RCMP officers that assisted on the front line as well.
	Do you know where the RCMP officers came from?
	No, I did meet some of them and they were from all over really.
	I'd like to pull up DOJ.IR.6011, please.
	At page 55. At point 250, if we scroll down a little bit.
	There's a note that on February 10th...
	The Windsor Police Service contacted the Minister of Public Safety to request RCMP assistant with respect to the ambassador bridge.
	Slow down a bit for the translators, please.
	That same day, the RCMP deployed a TSG that was deployed in Ottawa to Windsor.
	I understand that the TSG is a tactical support group.
	To your knowledge, is that the unit that came to Windsor?
	I'm not sure.
	I couldn't comment on that.
	We can pull that out, Mr. Clerk.
	Thank you.
	I understand that OPP also deployed a PLT.
	Correct.
	Members to Windsor.
	One of the recommendations that you made in your witness summary is that there should be a PLT unit in the Windsor Police Service and PLT training should be provided to Windsor police officers.
	Could you please expand on why you made that recommendation?
	The efforts and the achievements of our provincial liaison team, not only in Windsor, but any incident that they attend is remarkable.
	The community as well as our organization, we have a responsibility to try to develop that rapport in incidents where we don't see eye to eye, just so that everybody can be heard.
	And the provincial liaison team allows that to happen within our different groups, within our societies and our communities.
	So that's why I would urge that.
	Any really police service have some sort of team that allows for that rapport and that communication piece.
	Would you make a similar recommendation regarding POU training that all municipal forces perhaps should have that sort of training?
	I think depending on where the municipal service is and any key infrastructures that may be targeted, that has to be consideration.
	And if, in fact, they can't have a team, perhaps they need to have some sort of memorandum of understanding with another service that could facilitate a POU unit for them if needed.
	So you mentioned earlier today to my colleague that by the end of February 11th, you had all the resources that you needed for your plan and that you implemented it on the morning of February 12th.
	I understand that One of the reasons that it started early in the morning is that there would be fewer protesters and that no children were likely to be present according to intelligence.
	Correct.
	Did you have a contingency plan in place in case there were indeed children present?
	Yes, we did.
	So we had a vehicle set aside that would transport children from the scene.
	We also worked with the local Children's Aid Society for assistance.
	And as well, Windsor kind of spearheaded this, but they had their Victim Response Unit in attendance to support any children that may be present.
	And so while we're on the contingency plan, can you explain...
	The importance of having those kinds of plans in place and how you decide what to prepare for as contingencies.
	So as I've discussed before, you need to have as many options as possible, especially in an incident like this.
	And so once you learn or once you have developed that situational awareness and some of the challenges that you may be faced with during the incident, you need to make sure that your options are covered for each one.
	So for example, you mentioned...
	Well, that includes towing as well, and so did the POU plan.
	Knowing that children were present at different times of the day during this protest, that was an obvious thing for me to make sure that it was addressed.
	So, on the morning of February 12th, you start implementing the plan.
	Please explain how the plan was carried out.
	We had a very early morning briefing, which included...
	Every team member that was going to be involved, so that would be all of our POU contingent, as well as the frontline officers, as well as the admin support.
	The plan was explained to everyone.
	I addressed everyone and thanked them for their support and efforts.
	It was shortly after that that we then staged at the areas that were set out in the plan.
	Before the plan was to move forward, PLT was to again address the crowd and let them know that with POU standing behind them, let them know that POU would be attempting to clear the area and giving them another opportunity to leave the area on their own.
	Another important part of the plan is that we always left an area open so that if somebody wanted to leave the operational area while POU was present, they could do so on their own.
	I'd like to pull up COM 50926, please, Mr. Clerk.
	This is a map of Windsor, and I will maybe help explain the...
	Clearing by phases that you briefly alluded to earlier.
	Okay.
	Let's explain more visually how it happened.
	Yes.
	So you explained earlier today that the plan was to clear the protesters in phases because the area was perhaps too large to do it all at once.
	Yes.
	Can you explain?
	A little further, what the phases were and how they were carried out.
	It's a bit difficult to see the side roads.
	Okay.
	So right in behind the McDonald's is obviously where the bridge is.
	So we wanted to go from the bridge to the intersection to the train tracks.
	So there's train tracks right in front of the entrance to the bridge.
	That was a certain area.
	We then wanted to move from the tracks itself to the intersection at the McDonald's there, since that's a clear point.
	That would be another section.
	And then ultimately make our way down to Tecumseh Road.
	So it was basically put into three different sections.
	Those were determined by the POU plan and the POU team leaders in regards to what would be most effective.
	And obviously, I respected and trusted their subject matter expertise.
	And I understand that after each area was cleared, you would use the resources that we discussed earlier to block passage?
	Correct.
	So we would use a mixture of the larger trucks, the cement barriers, and officers as well.
	Then once the whole area was cleared after the three phases were completed, that...
	Brought us to February 13th?
	Yes.
	And that's when the traffic plan came into place.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	Can you explain a little more what the traffic plan in itself entailed?
	Yes.
	So the traffic plan was to, as I said to my team that day, it's one thing to open the bridge.
	It's another thing to keep it open.
	So the traffic plan, the traffic and towing plan addressed maintaining the safe flow of traffic.
	To and from the United States.
	So the traffic plan incorporated the cement barriers that we discussed and blocking all the intersections, and I won't say all, but most of the intersections down here on Church to ensure that we did not have protesters coming from the side streets onto the road again and taking it back.
	The infrastructure of Windsor is a huge challenge when it comes to the entrance of the bridge, and that's why the need for all the resources that were required in regards to the cement barriers.
	This traffic plan also had marked areas that intersections were...
	We're attended by officers rather than cement barriers for safety reasons, for EMS and fire, to make sure that they could get through.
	And then also, too, we incorporated two different areas for pedestrian traffic as well.
	Were local residents able to cross Huron Church at any point with their personal vehicles?
	Yes.
	No, they weren't at certain times.
	But towards the end, towards EC Row in that area, they were able to cross into the other side of the city.
	Again, another big part of the traffic plan was the media strategy.
	So we made sure that we communicated this to the community at every step of the way.
	What it looked like, what the alternate routes were to the different businesses, to the different areas of the city.
	We made sure that all of those were set up as well.
	And Windsor Police had obviously a big hand in that working with their roads department.
	This is, I think, what Deputy Chief Crawley yesterday referred to as an area of control?
	Yes.
	And I think you referred to it in your interview as an exclusion zone?
	Yes.
	Under which authority did you create the exclusion zone?
	We relied on the criminal code, really for keeping people out of the area.
	We had specific tasks for the officers that were assigned to the traffic plan to investigate anybody who may appear suspicious or who may stop in the exclusion zone.
	So it was clearly communicated to the community through MTO signs, through social media, that if you were going to be on Heroin Church, you're going to the bridge.
	And I understand that there were RCMP frontline resources that arrived, as you mentioned a little earlier.
	Yes.
	And I also understand that there was a delay in swearing them in.
	I don't think it did happen.
	And why was it necessary to swear in these officers?
	Or would it have been useful?
	Well, they would be able to address anything under the criminal code, but anything under provincial or municipal legislation, they would not be able to address.
	Since they were being deployed to assist the frontline, we needed them to have those options.
	So what we did instead, because of the delay, is that we made sure that they were partnered with another police service, so OPP or Windsor, that did have those abilities.
	And it's one of the recommendations that you also made in your interview that the process for granting RCMP officers...
	Provincial and municipal authorities be streamlined.
	Yes.
	What was the difficulty in getting them sworn in?
	I don't think there was really clear direction as to who had to do it.
	When did it have to be done?
	Could it be done remotely?
	Did it have to be done with them in person?
	So there was a lot of phone calls back and forth with myself along with Windsor Police Service at a time where really we should have just been left alone to focus on the incident itself.
	So that's what I mean by more streamlined, before RCMP officers arrive to assist.
	And did it cause any delay that you had to change your plan to pair RCMP officers with OPP or Windsor Police Service officers?
	No, we just looked for a different option because obviously we needed them on the front line, so that's what we did instead.
	Go to the next day on February 14th, the Emergencies Act was invoked by the federal government.
	Yes.
	In your view, did it have any impact on the situation in Windsor?
	Well, things were much different then because the traffic was flowing and it's hard to say if it had any difference, but I do know that...
	Again, it was communicated through our media strategy that people were aware of the additional act being legislated and what it meant to them and the definition of certain things, obviously a bridge that fell under the act.
	Yesterday, Deputy Chief Crowley mentioned that it may have been dissuasive to the protesters to come back.
	Would you agree?
	I agree.
	Again, it was another tool that we were able to use.
	Was there a clear plan that you were aware of that the protesters wanted to re-blockade the Ambassador Bridge after it was cleared on the 12th and 13th?
	Yes, we continued to observe and receive intelligence that indicated.
	I think it was on the date of, and I know it's in my notes, on the date of the 15th through the 16th, there was a Facebook posting that was called Take Back the Bridge.
	And it was associated to all the things that were then transpiring in Ottawa.
	And basically, the posts were saying, you know, all the police are gone to Ottawa, so let's take back the bridge.
	That's something that we watched very closely.
	Also, Windsor police had had a group of protesters on a regular basis, and I think Deputy Chief Crowley spoke to that, that would meet during the convoys on a regular basis.
	So we maintained...
	Kind of intelligence on, you know, what will that group bring?
	But certainly there was the fear that they would think that numbers were being deployed to Ottawa and then try to take advantage of that and take back the bridge.
	I think your notes, and I can put them up, that would be helpful, also mention that once the injunction is expired, they are looking to block it again.
	Yes.
	Was that also a consideration that the injunction was going to expire?
	Yes, there was intelligence that indicated that that's what they were considering.
	So did you think that the renewal of the injunction on February 18th was helpful in preventing that?
	Well, to those who were going to try to take it back after it expired, yes.
	So as of February 20th, I understand that you adopted a demobilization plan?
	Correct.
	What is a demobilization plan?
	It was a plan to obviously demobilize our resources, not only for...
	Officers, but just kind of to give the incident entirely to Windsor Police Service as soon as they could kind of sustain it themselves.
	Also, keeping in mind and respecting the fact that they had calls for service.
	They had a city to police as well.
	So we did it in a staged approach.
	It also included demobilizing certain areas of the traffic plan.
	So on a daily basis, sometimes on an hourly basis, we would monitor the traffic flow along with the intelligence, along with the reports from our provincial liaison team and what the frontline was seeing to see if there was areas we could perhaps remove some of the barriers.
	So we evaluated that constantly and opened intersections a point at a time.
	You can see in the demobilization plan that we actually had some dates set out for each intersection to be considered.
	Some of those dates were met.
	Other dates were actually opened intersections earlier than we anticipated.
	Maybe for the record, we could put it up.
	It's WPS 60719.
	I believe at page 4. Is this what you were referring to?
	That's correct.
	So I see that the latest potential reopening date is March 13th.
	Yes.
	Why would it take about three weeks to clear all the intersections?
	That was sort of kind of a review of based on the information we had when the plan was created.
	Those two, the last two intersections were the heavier intersections in regards to protests.
	And those are the two that are obviously closest to the bridge entrance.
	So that's why they were kind of put till the end to see how the community as well as the intel and all of that we're receiving to see how the other intersections were being cleared.
	Was it being received well?
	Did we have any other threat of a protest?
	So that's why it was kind of spanned along that.
	That amount of time.
	Do you know when they were ultimately reopened, the last intersection?
	I don't.
	Sorry.
	I understand you stopped being critical incident commander in Windsor on February 23rd.
	That's correct.
	How was the transition of command from yourself to the Windsor Police Service?
	Again, it was seamless.
	And we worked every day, every night, side by side.
	So really, it was seamless when we left.
	We just wanted to make sure that Windsor had the proper amount of resources to be able to deal with anything if it should occur.
	And of course, some of our officers remain there until the end of the month, end of February.
	Thank you.
	I'd like to take you back to another of your recommendations before we end.
	You mentioned that the Critical Incident Command Commanders should visit frontline officers and ask them what they need.
	I understand that that's something that you did.
	I did, yes.
	Is this uncommon?
	I think that every critical incident commander attempts to go on ground.
	It's just because of, again, the dynamic situation.
	It's not always easy to do.
	So once I had an opportunity, I did make a point of visiting the different checkpoints.
	To check on the wellness of our members.
	And when I say our members, I mean any police officer that was out there.
	I also asked them for their input if there's anything else that we needed to get done or that we could do better.
	It was from one of those visits that the interactive...
	Post in regards to the traffic plan and updating on a regular basis, it came from a frontline officer saying, you know, I'm dealing with a local resident who wasn't sure where the crosswalks were.
	So could we post it and keep it up to date?
	So I took that right back to the command post and made sure that that was done right away so that a member of the public at any time just could click on the link and know where to cross the road.
	So it's those things as well.
	And most importantly, it's a way to thank them for their efforts.
	Considering that a lot of them had been away from home for quite some time and know that their efforts were having an impact.
	This is the last document that I'll take you to today.
	If we could please put up OPP 40's 4552 at page 26. Those are the ascribe notes from February 13th.
	At 12.17, so we can screw down a little bit.
	Commissioner Karik thanked you for having performed to perfection on world stage.
	What, for you, made the Windsor operation such a success?
	The team.
	Absolutely the team.
	It was a remarkable collaboration and cooperation.
	It didn't matter.
	What uniform you were wearing, what rank you wore, what role you had.
	It was a tremendous effort by a remarkable team.
	Is there anything else that you would like to say to the Commission that we haven't asked you this morning?
	I don't think so at this point.
	Thank you.
	Those are my questions for you, Superintendent.
	Thank you very much for your time.
	Thank you.
	Okay, thank you very much.
	Thank you, Commissioner.
	So, I'd like to...
	First, call on the Government of Canada if you have any questions.
	Thank you, Commissioner.
	Good morning, Superintendent.
	Good morning.
	My name is Andrea Gonzales, and I'm one of the lawyers representing the Government of Canada in this inquiry.
	I just want to begin by going back to the information you received.
	I guess it was late.
	You had many late nights.
	Late night on February 9th as to the state of play in Windsor when you were assigned the role of critical incident commander.
	In response to questions from Commission Council, you'll recall that he pulled up the bullet point email that you sent to the two deputies.
	Yes.
	And one of the concerns that was raised with you early on, I gather, was the dynamics of the crowd that was engaged in the protest activity, right?
	Yes.
	Under your direction, PLT teams became engaged.
	Early on, trying to identify leaders, right?
	Yes.
	But as you understood from the PLT teams, the protesters were disjointed and disorganized, I think were your words, right?
	Yes, correct.
	And in this kind of a situation, police don't know whether the group will even listen to someone who puts themselves forward as a leader, right?
	That's correct.
	Especially in this instance, because nobody was really being identified as a leader.
	Right.
	And there was, I understand you spoke about the three groups.
	There was some infighting among them.
	Yes.
	And the demands of the group, to the extent they were even known, were problematic.
	Yes.
	Right.
	I think I saw in your notes of February 10th at OPP.
	Four zeros, four five, four three, that the protesters had no desire to leave and wanted to remain until all restrictions were lifted.
	That was your understanding?
	Yes.
	Your bullet point note to the deputy chiefs also talked about the crowd being agitated and that was true at various times through the protest, right?
	That's correct.
	In your notes, again, February 10th, I saw that you described a wilder crowd arriving at night.
	Yes.
	That's when the drinking and the pot smoking would begin.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And Inspector Yunnan described the crowd dynamics as being violent.
	Do you remember that?
	Yes.
	We heard evidence from Deputy Chief Crawley yesterday, but I just want to confirm you were also aware from the briefings you received that there had been threats to surround and storm police station?
	Yes, as well as the tunnel.
	The tunnel, right.
	Officers were swarmed when they tried to arrest the individual whose car jumped the curb?
	That's correct.
	There had been threats when attempts were made to tow two vehicles prior to your arrival?
	Yes.
	You heard about a possible protest at the Windsor Airport?
	That I did not.
	Okay.
	You heard about a smoke bomb that was set off by demonstrators at one point?
	Yes.
	And a bit later on in the piece, but there was a bomb threat called in about a bomb that was...
	Behind the police lines, is that correct?
	That's correct.
	There had also been threats made to the mayor.
	His address was posted online.
	We knew about that.
	Yes, I was aware.
	And this was all you would accurately say, you'd say was accurately described as a volatile situation.
	Yes.
	Then you throw into the mix the presence of children, right?
	Correct.
	One of your biggest concerns throughout the piece.
	Yes.
	And I take it that the concern about the presence of children was based on what officers were seeing actually happening on the ground at the protest site, right?
	That's correct.
	Not just information being collected online.
	No, we were witnessing it.
	Yesterday, in questions to Deputy Chief Crawley, one of the counsel for one of the parties pulled up a situation report that was dated.
	0400 hours that indicated no children were observed on scene.
	That was 0400 hours on February 12th.
	Can you explain how that reconciles, if it does, with the information you received of children on site?
	So it was always very apparent that the children on site were at certain times in the day and that they were not staying overnight.
	So the information at 0400, the children were not present, did not surprise me because...
	Information before revealed that the children were going home at night and not returning till sometimes 9:00, 10:00 a.m.
	You testified in response to questions from Commission Council about the increased risk of counter-protests.
	President of the Auto Workers Association, who understandably they were quite upset by the ongoing blockade of the bridge.
	Do you recall the words that he used when he indicated that they wanted to come and counter protest?
	I believe, and I think it was recorded in my notes.
	Something indicating that they were going to knock heads or use a vehicle to push people into the river.
	Yeah, that was on February 11th, OPP 40's 4550, page 21. He said that they intend to come on Monday with 1,000 people to crack heads or bring heavy equipment and push them in the river.
	That's pretty concerning as the critical incident commander, correct?
	Yes.
	And as time wore on, local residents are becoming more vocal in their opposition to the protest.
	I understand you were briefed at one point on counter protesters intending to damage protest vehicles.
	Yes.
	You spoke about the injunction.
	That was ordered by Chief Justice Morowitz of the Ontario Superior Court on February 11th.
	And I understand your view is that although this was one of the tools available, it was not particularly useful.
	I did not see a significant change in the incident.
	Similarly, the February 11th provincial declaration of a state of emergency, I understand from your notes.
	That a few protesters may have left, but it also caused others to dig their heels in, right?
	That's correct.
	And then the third piece that happens on February 11th is the letter from the Solicitor General to Commissioner Karik that was distributed to protesters.
	And I just want to confirm, you testified in response to Commission Council's questions that you had been made aware of a similar letter that would be handed out to protesters in Ottawa.
	You recall that evidence?
	Yes.
	Did you understand who that letter would be coming from?
	The one in Ottawa?
	Yes.
	No, I do not.
	I do not know.
	And that's because your focus, of course, was Windsor.
	And that letter from the Solicitor General does ultimately get handed out to protesters at the blockade site in Windsor.
	Yes.
	And it had no effect either.
	They refused to leave, right?
	Yes.
	Disappointingly, but that really proved to be the end point to possible engagement.
	It had been tried and it had failed, right?
	Sorry, we just need an audible.
	Yes, sorry.
	Thank you.
	And there was a lot going on across the province at the time that you were dealing with the situation in Windsor.
	A lot of protest activity.
	Fair?
	Yes.
	We know that the Windsor police response involved units not only from OPP and Windsor Police, but you also spoke about London, Hamilton, Waterloo, I think.
	Correct.
	Yeah.
	Perhaps some other municipal police services, or does that cover it?
	I believe that covers it.
	And you were told that Windsor was your priority, right?
	Yes.
	But you were certainly well aware that there were ongoing and expected demonstrations and blockades across the province, right?
	Yes, I was aware.
	I saw through your notes this reference to a ripple.
	Am I understanding, Superintendent, that you saw the convoys and the blockades in the various locations as being connected in the sense that they couldn't be managed or approached in isolation from a policing perspective?
	Certainly all of them had to be considered.
	I think I'll go back to the example of...
	The Facebook page that I mentioned, Take Back the Bridge, it was obvious that people were monitoring what police activity was and then making plans according to that.
	And you were aware or certainly alive to the concern that what happened at one site could well have impacts at others.
	Correct.
	Now, after the 11th, everything, fair to say, had been tried, and the time had come for the operational plan to be implemented, right?
	Yes.
	And it ultimately succeeds in fully clearing that blockade on Sunday the 13th, right?
	Correct.
	The vehicles were towed.
	One thing I didn't hear come out in your evidence in chief, but I saw in your notes, OPP404544 at page 14, that bomb threats had been made to the tow operator.
	That was AMPM towing, is that right?
	Yes, Windsor Police Service was dealing with that because it was their jurisdiction, but I was aware that the towing company had received threats.
	Both internally, so on their phone, and also to that a number of people had called continuously to the business.
	And so basically their phone service wasn't available because people kept tying up the lines.
	And in regards to tow trucks, when the others were staged from the states, we also received information that people were going to, protesters were going to go and block the area where we had them staged so that we potentially...
	We're not able to use them, so I had to assign additional officers to that area.
	Okay.
	It's fair for me to say that even after the operation had successfully cleared the blockade, you were deeply concerned about maintaining that road clear, right?
	Yes.
	That was your single biggest...
	Concern, in fact, was maintaining the hold, somewhat precarious hold, on Huron Church Road, right?
	Yes.
	And I saw in your notes, perhaps we could turn them up, OPP 40's 4556 at page, stamped page 16, but I think in the electronic document it would be page 17. Yep, right there is good.
	And I see fourth line down.
	Now we have to maintain it.
	May have Groundhog Day.
	Could be Groundhog Day.
	Have to be on high alert.
	What did you mean by it could be Groundhog Day?
	They could attempt again.
	They had obviously proven to the world at this time that they were able to block it so that they knew it was achievable.
	And this ongoing Risk that the protesters would return and resume the blockade.
	I take it that your concern was informed not only by what you saw in Windsor, but your experience with these ongoing slow roll protests, even going back to January.
	Yes.
	And as the POU operation loomed in Ottawa...
	You made clear that you couldn't spare resources from Windsor to assist with that, right?
	I made it clear that I needed a contingent of POU officers still available.
	And in fact, after the blockade was cleared on the 13th and the bridge reopened on the 14th, I understand there were threats to block the tunnel.
	Those threats came in very shortly after the bridge was cleared?
	Yes.
	You mentioned the 15th, there was a convoy of vehicles believed to have been traveling to Windsor that was intercepted.
	Yes.
	On the 16th, if we could pull up OPP50209.
	And scroll down, please.
	Just pausing there.
	This is an email dated February 16th, and we see your name there, Superintendent?
	Yes.
	Okay, keep scrolling down.
	And this is an email communicating to you and others the most recent updated PLT messaging that incorporates both the federal and provincial emergency orders.
	Do you recall receiving that?
	I received a lot of emails, but yes.
	But you're aware in any event of the needing to get out PLT messaging of the two levels of emergency orders, right?
	Yes.
	Including what we see in the first paragraph in black.
	Persons traveling to any other unlawful protest sites to participate in or support the unlawful demonstration can be charged.
	And that is the PLT messaging being put out to...
	Deter protesters from going to sites where blockades might be resumed or renewed, yes?
	Yes, and providing them the education of what could happen.
	Right, what the consequences are.
	Exactly.
	So you also mentioned the Facebook chat about protesters heading back to Ambassador Bridge as the enforcement action was taking place in Ottawa.
	Yes.
	Let's just pull up OPP404558.
	I've come to learn this is what we call fast facts.
	Yes.
	And this is pages 92 and 93. Let's just start at 92. Scroll down, please.
	A little bit more.
	There we go.
	The bullet point towards the bottom of the page.
	Private chat on Facebook by group by the name of Windsor Convoy for Freedom.
	Quote, all police are in Ottawa, so let's take the bridge back.
	That was a concern.
	There's another one on the next page.
	I don't have to take you there.
	And of course, Superintendent, you testified before about the...
	The concern presented by counter-protesters, the volatility if we have these two sides colliding, right?
	Yes.
	And that concern also would have arisen if yet another blockade popped up in Windsor after it had been cleared, right?
	Absolutely.
	And it's because of these concerns that you planned for the gradual rather than the sort of immediate demobilization in Windsor, right?
	That's correct.
	In fact, OPP-POUs were not removed from Windsor until February 24th, as I understand it?
	Yes.
	And you understand that's after the federal government had revoked the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
	Yes.
	We saw in your response to questions from Commission Council, the last intersection was planned to reopen on March 13th, on your advice?
	Yes.
	And I understand from Deputy Chief Crowley that WPS maintained a perimeter as late as March 28th.
	You understand that, or you said you weren't sure?
	Yeah, I wasn't there, but I did hear it in his testimony.
	And given all of the concerns and the economic impact of that bridge being closed down, not only in Windsor, but in the entire region, you understood that it would be appropriately prudent and cautious to keep these measures in place long after it had been cleared, correct?
	Again, it was another tool that we could refer to if we had issues.
	Because when that blockade was cleared on the 13th or the 14th, you just had no idea whether it would fall into the hands of protesters again, right?
	Exactly.
	Thank you.
	Those are my questions.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Next, Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
	Good morning, Superintendent.
	Good morning.
	My name is Alan Honor.
	I'm a lawyer with the Democracy Fund.
	We share standing with the JCCF and Citizens for Freedom.
	As Superintendent Early, since this inquiry started, we've heard evidence about the importance of police independence and about how politicians should not interfere with that independence.
	You will agree with me that police autonomy is very important.
	Yes.
	Can we pull up ssm.can.nsc.402845?
	And Superintendent, you will not have seen this document before, but it's a readout of a conversation between the Prime Minister and the Premier of Ontario on February 10th.
	I just want to take you to parts of that document and then ask you a question about it.
	So can we scroll down just a little bit?
	A little bit more.
	So if we look at this document now, the Premier and the Prime Minister are saying hello.
	And in the first big paragraph, Premier Ford says, "The bigger one for us and the country is the Ambassador Bridge and the state ground there." What I think is we've got to stop the spread of these protests.
	He goes on to say that the Attorney General is looking at legal ways to give the police more tools.
	Do you see that?
	Yes.
	Okay, and in the next paragraph, if we can just scroll down a little bit, the Prime Minister says, first of all, They're not a legal protest.
	They're occupying a municipal street and are not legally parked.
	You shouldn't need more tools, legal tools.
	They are barricading the Ontario economy.
	And then later in that paragraph, he says, we got to respond quickly.
	And if I can take you to the next page, about halfway through.
	Just from what you're seeing on the screen, the third paragraph from the bottom, the Prime Minister asks, has Windsor asked anything of the OPP?
	Have they made a formal request?
	And if you look at the Premier's response, he says, they've put that request in through the Solicitor General.
	I spoke to the Mayor, and that was the plan.
	You see that?
	Yes.
	And can we go to the top of the third page?
	And so we see the Prime Minister is asking, what are the next steps?
	And Premier Ford says, they'll act, but without directing them, it's hard to describe their game plan.
	They'll have a plan, unlike Ottawa, Where they didn't have a plan.
	I'll get brief tomorrow from the Solicitor General and we'll keep you updated.
	This is critical.
	I hear you.
	I'll be up their ass with a wire brush.
	Now, Superintendent, the question I wanted to put to you is, and I just want to be clear, you did not experience any political interference from anyone when you were carrying out your duties.
	No, I did not.
	And do you know of anyone else in the OPS, sorry, the OPP, the WPS, or any other police force who experienced inappropriate political pressure?
	Not that I'm aware of.
	Okay, thank you very much.
	I'd like to just switch gears for a moment here.
	You told us earlier today about a conversation.
	Telephone conversation you had with, I believe it was Deputy Commissioners Harkins and DeMarco, and that was on February the 10th.
	And you told us today that they told you that Windsor was your priority and that it was a priority.
	Yes.
	And when I read your witness statement, I saw you said that.
	You described it as a priority, but you also described it in a different way.
	I won't take you there, but what you say in that statement is that they told you that Windsor was the priority.
	Does that sound right to you?
	I knew it was stressed on me that it was a priority.
	And was it the priority as opposed to a priority?
	All I can speak to is that I knew it was my priority.
	But you would agree with me that it was a very important priority, regardless of whether it was the most important.
	Yes.
	And given the economic impact of the Ambassador Bridge, it was possibly not just one of the most important priorities for Ontario, but also for the country.
	Perhaps, but there is a lot of other issues that we had to consider.
	Right.
	But we saw from the conversation between Doug Ford and Prime Minister Trudeau that at least for...
	Doug Ford, it appears that Windsor is the priority.
	Well, I can't speak to that.
	I wasn't involved in that conversation.
	No, but you've seen the document.
	That's what it looks like when he says, for us.
	I'll just remind you of the language here.
	He says, the bigger one for us and the country is the Ambassador Bridge.
	I can't speak to what he was thinking.
	Okay, fair enough.
	Superintendent Early, you can tell me, though, And, you know, to the cred of you and your team, that you managed to get this blockade at the Ambassador Bridge cleared within two days of your appointment as CIC?
	Yes.
	And you would agree with me, then, that you and your team managed to resolve one of the most urgent priorities in the country without the benefit of the Emergencies Act?
	Correct.
	Thank you.
	Earlier today, you spoke about swearing in RCMP officers.
	Yes.
	I think your evidence was that the POU officers did not need to be sworn in because they were enforcing the criminal code, but frontline officers would be enforcing municipal laws and provincial laws?
	Possibly.
	Possibly.
	And so you sort of creatively solved this problem by pairing them up with OPP officers.
	And Windsor Police.
	And Windsor Police.
	Yes.
	And I just don't understand this.
	I'm just wondering if you can explain it a little bit better.
	What additional power would that confer on the RCMP or what benefit would that confer to Paramount like that?
	In regards to having them sworn in?
	Right.
	I mean, would this allow the RCMP, for example, to enforce provincial laws?
	Yes.
	It would.
	Thank you.
	And we heard today that you established an exclusion zone along Huron Church Road.
	And I believe we heard yesterday that exclusion zone was north of Tecumseh to the Ambassador Bridge.
	Does that sound right?
	Yes.
	And that's a distance of about one kilometre?
	I believe it's more than that.
	I think it's about three.
	Okay.
	And when you gave us evidence today, you said you relied upon the criminal code to establish that exclusion zone?
	Yes.
	Do you agree that you could have also relied upon The Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act to establish that exclusion zone?
	Yes.
	Thank you.
	My friend from the Government of Canada asked you questions today about threats that were present in Windsor.
	You told us today that you've read the Hendon reports.
	Yes.
	Insofar as they concerned the municipalities under your care.
	Yes.
	And you would agree with me that in Windsor there was no extremist rhetoric?
	That I can't speak to.
	But if it was in the Hendon reports, you would agree with it?
	Yes, I mean, it was Windsor's responsibility to be reviewing the Hendon reports in regards to activity in their area.
	Okay, well, it's OPP401688.
	I won't bring it up.
	Let me just move on.
	Can we pull up OPP40?
	Can you tell us who Karen Johnson was or is?
	I'm just asking while we're waiting for the document.
	No, I don't.
	I'm not familiar with that name.
	Well, we have an email here, and when it comes up, I suspect it will show an email from Karen Johnson to a number of people, including you and Commissioner Karik.
	And can we just scroll down a little bit, please?
	A little bit further?
	Scroll up.
	Okay, this is not the document I'm looking for.
	Let me ask you a question, though.
	Would you agree with me that there were a total of 44 arrests in Windsor during this enforcement?
	Yeah, I do believe that that was, again, the arrest for the responsibility of Windsor Police Service.
	Right, and from what I recall, and you can just tell me if this is accurate or not, there were 88 charges approximately, and almost all of those were, about 44 were mischief and about 44 were breaching the court order.
	I believe so.
	And none of those are violent offences.
	Pardon?
	Those two offences are not violent offences.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	They can be.
	Everybody has, there's a potential of violence in any offense, really.
	But if somebody was to commit a violent offense, they would typically be charged with something like assault or assault with a weapon.
	Yes, perhaps.
	It all depends on the reasonable and probable grounds.
	Right.
	Kidnapping, forcible confinement, murder.
	None of that.
	I'm just about to wrap up here.
	I just want to ask the question about maintaining the roads, because you told my friend that, you know, maintaining the roads was a priority.
	And you said to your, I think your officers, that clearing the bridge is one thing, but maintaining the road is another thing.
	And I understand you were able to maintain the road.
	You're speaking about Huron Church Road.
	Yes.
	Is that right?
	And you were able to maintain it.
	By installing jersey barriers along the side of the road from the bridge to the 401?
	Correct.
	Not exactly right to the 401, but yes.
	Approximately.
	Yes.
	And that's a distance of three kilometres, I think.
	Okay, that could be.
	I'm sorry, I'm not sure about the distances.
	We used other ways as well.
	The cement barriers along with officers deployed to the certain traffic stops too.
	Right, and you had a traffic plan that you employed when you were doing it.
	Correct.
	And that traffic plan, I won't bring it up.
	I think I'm out of time or very close to it.
	It's dated February 13th, 2022.
	Yes.
	You have a couple of minutes.
	You're not near your time.
	I'll look at you when you're close to it.
	Well, I'll wrap up anyway and try and get some goodwill.
	Superintendent Early.
	I take it it's obvious that if the traffic plan is dated February 13, 2022, it was not contemplating the use of powers conferred by the Emergencies Act.
	No.
	Thank you very much.
	Those are my questions.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Next is the City of Windsor.
	Good afternoon, Superintendent Early.
	Good afternoon.
	I have a few topics I'd like to canvass with you today.
	Okay.
	I am Jennifer King.
	I'm counsel to the City of Windsor.
	First, I'd like to speak to you about your role in Windsor before Deputy Commissioner Chris Harkins appointed you to serve as OPP's Critical Incident Commander in Windsor.
	This morning you told my friend, Commission Council, that OPP-PLT was deployed to Windsor on February the 8th.
	Following a conversation you had with now Deputy Chief Crowley early on February the 8th, I think it was 2 a.m.?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	It is my understanding from the OPP's institutional report, and perhaps I'll stop there.
	Have you had an opportunity to review OPP's institutional report?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So I understand from OPP's institutional report, and for the record, it is OPP IR 701.
	I don't think we have to bring it up, Mr. Clerk.
	But at page 27, it says that four OPP PLT officers were deployed on February the 7th to assist the WPS.
	This is reflected in some of the documents, and I could show them to you if it could help you confirm for us and for the Commissioner the date that OPP PLT were deployed.
	I know it was in between those two days, as you can see.
	Lost track of time sometimes or when the date changed because I was up till all hours.
	Yes.
	But I know that PLT was deployed.
	Okay.
	Well, why don't we look at, perhaps, Mr. Clerk, you could bring up OPP 404580 and scroll to page 67. Superintendent Early.
	Commissioner Karik produced texts with Deputy Solicitor General Di Tommaso that have been produced to the Commission.
	Commissioner Karik was kept apprised of the operations in Windsor, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And so these are his texts with Deputy Solicitor General Di Tommaso.
	And if you go to page 67, at the bottom of the page, Mr. Clerk.
	The times on this, so we have to go back, I believe it's five hours.
	So around noon on February the 7th, Commissioner Creek texted the Deputy Solicitor General, OPP PLT engaged.
	Do you see that?
	Yes.
	And would he have gotten that information from you?
	This is February 7th before you were appointed, correct?
	So I don't know if he received it from myself or from the Chief or perhaps Acting Superintendent Marcel Bowden.
	Okay.
	There are other documents that refer to PLT being engaged by February the 7th.
	Does this assist you in confirming for the Commissioner the date that OPP-PLT were engaged?
	I know that the discussion was had that they would go and attend and assist.
	Okay.
	And so it makes sense to you that would have been February the 7th based on?
	Yes.
	Okay, thank you.
	You spoke with my friend Mr. Au about Mayor Dilkin's public announcement that you said you watched on February the 9th.
	Yeah, I don't remember watching it, but I was certainly aware of it.
	Okay, so do you remember whether or not you heard about it or whether you saw it yourself?
	I had heard about it.
	And it was on February the 9th?
	Yes.
	Okay, you were not yet appointed.
	No.
	No?
	So the Mayor and Chief Mizuno, former Chief Mizuno of the Windsor Police Service, held a press conference at noon on February the 9th.
	I don't have to bring it up, but there's documents about that press conference.
	Does it make sense to you this was something you would have heard around the middle of the day?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So this was a joint media briefing delivered by Mayor Dilkens and Chief Mizuno.
	Do you recall that?
	I do recall.
	Okay.
	It was Mayor Dilkin's evidence yesterday that his public comments were reviewed by the chief of police or her staff so that there were no surprises when Windsor delivered a message.
	Did you hear him say that yesterday?
	No, I did not hear him say that.
	Other than the direction that you gave that you discussed earlier that requests for resources should not be made publicly, you were not engaged in communications, were you?
	With the mayor?
	No, sorry, media communications.
	That came from the city?
	Or, sorry, I'm not sure.
	That came from the city or WPS.
	I understand from your statement or your witness summary that WPS continued to have responsibility for media releases and messages, right?
	They worked alongside of our media officers, our OPP media officers, and everything was brought to the command table for review.
	Okay.
	And you had no concerns with media releases or messaging after you arrived in Windsor?
	No.
	A couple of brief questions about the injunction and the continuation of the injunction.
	Earlier today, you described the injunction as a tool, an option for police?
	Yes.
	Can you confirm you never raise any concerns with the City of Windsor about seeking the injunction?
	I did not raise concerns, no.
	And you raise no concerns about the continuation of the injunction?
	No.
	You spoke with my friend, Commission Council, about the traffic plan.
	This has been discussed in your cross-examination as well.
	I just wanted to confirm that the purpose of the traffic plan was to ensure the flow of traffic from Highway 401 to the Ambassador Bridge, correct?
	It was to ensure that a protest did not occur again.
	Yes, but yes, to keep the flow safe.
	Keep the flow safe and keep the flow of traffic over the Ambassador Bridge.
	Yes.
	Clear, yes?
	Okay.
	And the concrete barriers were installed on your direction?
	Yes.
	And this was to better manage future risk of vehicles being used for blockades, right?
	Exactly.
	Excellent.
	Those are all my questions.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Okay, thank you.
	questions by former chief slowly's council Thank you, Commissioner.
	Superintendent Early Tom Curry for the former chief in Ottawa.
	Hello.
	A couple of things.
	Just if I could sort one thing out.
	The issue that my friend Ms. King was just asking you about concerning the media here in, or not here in Windsor, when you were in Windsor, about resources.
	Recall that issue.
	And my friend Mr. Au asked you about this.
	Do you recall that by the time you were in Windsor as the critical incident commander, that a statement had been made in a media interview by the mayor that named the number of officers that the city had requested, City of Windsor or Windsor Police Service, I suppose, had requested being 100?
	No, I was not aware that that was publicized.
	Okay, so Commissioner, I have the, there's a, I raised this with the witness yesterday, the mayor yesterday, and he recalled something about that.
	My friend Ms. King and I have discussed this, rather than show the media pieces and so on, I think it's accepted that on the 8th of February, the mayor, in an interview with, I think it was CTV News, named that number.
	So I just want to, and my friend Ms. King can just confirm that so.
	So, Jennifer King, counsel for Windsor.
	Yes, I readmit that that statement was made in an interview with CTV.
	Thank you.
	Now, Superintendent Early, these issues that you dealt with in Windsor, this incident, was the largest, presumably, the largest critical incident you have managed in your career.
	Is that true?
	Yes, it was one of.
	Well, is it the largest, though?
	Yes.
	Yeah, because you mobilized, if I understand from your institutional report or the services institutional report, there were, in the end, 410 members of your police service who were deployed in Windsor.
	True?
	Yes, over the...
	The times.
	Yes.
	And it would have peaked at a certain number and then dissipated as the demobilization went on.
	But in the max, 410.
	Yes?
	Yes.
	Largest number that you've been in command of.
	Yes.
	And among the largest in the province's history in terms of deployment of OPP service officers.
	True?
	I would think so.
	I'm not sure.
	And yet it was probably...
	Well, did you know how many were deployed in Ottawa?
	No, I did not know numbers.
	Your relationship with the events in Ottawa, can I speak about that for a moment?
	You had no direct involvement in the Ottawa incident.
	Is that true?
	That's correct.
	You had some points of contact, as you've discussed with Mr. Au, about the letter, for example.
	But otherwise, those two incidents were managed separately by...
	By incident commanders in both locations?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And ultimately, the strategic command is shared.
	It's common.
	True?
	Shared with?
	Ottawa and Windsor, critical incident commanders, share a common command structure, reporting eventually to...
	Deputy commissioners and commissioners.
	Yes, correct.
	And so it is for the deputy commissioner or the commissioner ultimately to set the strategic objectives and priorities for the service.
	Yes.
	In both Windsor and Ottawa.
	Yes.
	And so when my friend, well, all of the lawyers have probably asked you about this, but when you came to this, first of all, in your role as a superintendent in the region, You learned that there were convoys in the area heading eventually to Essex County and to Windsor, correct?
	There were convoys that I discussed earlier, sir.
	Is that what you're referring to?
	Those convoys actually stayed local in their respective municipalities.
	Okay.
	And so your service was engaged in providing safe passage?
	And just managing whatever comes from a slow roll, as it's been described, through your region, right?
	Yes, that's correct.
	And on the 6th of February, we know that the Hendon Report alerted police services to the possibility that now on the 7th, there would be a blockade of the Ambassador Bridge.
	Recall?
	I don't recall reading that specific report.
	Someone in your command or below you in the chain of command responsible for intelligence would have that?
	Yes.
	And was there, did the OPP under your region take any steps to intercept those convoys on their way to the Ambassador Bridge?
	We did not have the information to indicate where they were coming from.
	Or what kind of vehicles or who would be involved.
	Got it.
	So whatever intelligence came to you in your region through the Hendon reports was not sufficiently clear to be able to take steps, for example, to intercept a convoy for the reasons you've just given.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Now, eventually, after the Ambassador Bridge was blocked and then cleared, I think one of my colleagues asked you about...
	The interception of a convoy that was heading to try to engage in another blockade, and the OPP did stop that convoy.
	Is that true?
	Yes.
	And you would have done that because by then, of course, you'd had the experience of the Ambassador Bridge blockade.
	You had the experience of the Ottawa blockade, or occupation as it's been described.
	And now you had actionable intelligence to say, including, I suppose, the Emergencies Act, to stop convoy.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	Now, a couple of things, if I could, about your engagement as the critical incident commander that you've told us about today.
	First things first, the issue about the importance of clearing this particular protest on the Ambassador Bridge, you've spoken about that.
	Just for your Just to get your help on this.
	From your statement that you have read to us or has been filed, there is a reference on page two, and I have the name of this, or they have the number, and I'm going to leave that for a second.
	I will offer a reward to anyone who can tell me the name of that, or the number of that statement.
	Mr. Al.
	WTS.
	Yes, 22. Thank you, 22. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
	Page two, when we get there.
	Paragraph three.
	You've seen this before.
	Upon.
	Thank you.
	So, this is a simple thing, but during a February 10th, 8.30 a.m. call, middle of the paragraph, do you see it?
	Deputy Commissioner Harkins.
	Commissioners, Harkins and DeMarco, again advised Superintendent Early that Windsor was the priority and that it was urgent to resolve the blockade.
	That's true, isn't it?
	Yes.
	And it was obvious to the, in terms of setting the strategic direction, that is the role for not just Commissioner Karik, but also the deputy commissioners to say what are the priorities.
	Yes.
	And in respect of the priorities, the rank order of these priorities, when we speak, when they spoke to you about it being the priority, it was understood that it was the priority for the Ontario Provincial Police Service.
	I understood it to be my priority, so it was my priority that I needed to focus on.
	Yes, of course it became your priority because you were the critical incident commander, but when they say it is the priority, you understood it was the priority for the service.
	True?
	I understood that it was a priority and I would get whatever resources I needed.
	Yes, that followed and that's important.
	But it was when they spoke to you at 8.30 in the morning on the 10th and said it was the priority, it's the priority for the service.
	I can't speak to that.
	You'd have to ask them.
	Okay, well, we won't get a chance to do that.
	But you understood that whatever else it was, it was going to be...
	That task was being handed to you.
	Yes.
	And when they said at the top of that statement, and we have your notes, of course, but I'm just in the interest of time.
	Upon Superintendent Early's appointment, Deputy Commissioner Harkins and Deputy Commissioner DeMarco communicated to her that Windsor was a priority and that she would receive whatever resources she needed.
	You needed.
	You understood that.
	Yes.
	And so prior to your ever...
	Picking up a pen and writing in your notes the mission statement, you knew that whatever resources you needed, you had.
	And in fact, they had already begun to roll out prior to your drafting the mission statement.
	Correct.
	Now, of course, the resources of which we're speaking were...
	Were a number of different things, but in the main, you understood this was going to require POU resources, right?
	And they came from municipal services and as well from the hub that drew on OPP's resources, correct?
	Correct.
	Can I just show you, please, OPP 4543.
	This should be from your notebook.
	with the scribe.
	And if we could go please to...
	I think it should be the first page initially.
	So this should be 2200 hours on February the 9th.
	Telephone conference with Hamilton Police Service and Windsor Police Service, Waterloo Regional Police Service to discuss POU support and it set out.
	And those are the calls that you placed in order to generate these resources.
	Is that right?
	That's correct.
	And then at 7.15 a.m., if we could just scroll down.
	This should be page 7. So now we're 7.15 on the, I suppose, 10th.
	Yeah, Jamie Sheridan called to advise that he and his Waterloo POU team would be heading.
	Leaving, rather, for Windsor at approximately 1,100 hours.
	They were rolling.
	That's correct.
	And then at 8.30 on page 8, please.
	Just at the bottom, there it is.
	Telephone conference with Deputy Harkins.
	Just scroll down.
	We could please a little bit.
	And DeMarco.
	Deputies advised, whatever is needed for plan will be available.
	Province focus is Windsor.
	And that's, again, that goes to the point that I was making earlier.
	The provincial focus is Windsor for obvious reasons.
	The Ambassador Bridge is vitally important, right?
	Right.
	Those were, yeah, from the teleconference.
	When you write down, or the scribe rather, writes down province focus is Windsor, those are the words spoken by one or both of the commissioners, deputies.
	Yeah, it's in the context of the conversation.
	Got it.
	Harkins speaking with RCMP today and will forward POU command.
	RCMP can send POU team of 150 people.
	Advise deputies Amy Ferguson, perhaps?
	Angela Ferguson.
	Angela, thank you.
	Short form for Angela.
	Will be POU commander for OPP.
	Waterloo Regional Police Service will arrive approximately 1,300 this afternoon.
	Harkins advised there is an urgency to get this resolved.
	Did he need to explain to you why that was urgent or did you understand the importance of the Ambassador Bridge?
	I understood.
	Of course, by then it was in the popular press as well that this blockade was causing enormous disruption.
	Yes, and I had also had conversations with Deputy Chief Crowley at this time and had more of a situational awareness.
	Understood.
	Now, and then you wrote out your mission statement at 0900.
	Can I see that at page 9, please?
	Now, these mission statements, just, oh, there it is.
	Is that your handwriting of the scribe?
	Scribe.
	Okay, so you dictated this on?
	Maybe in the car.
	I don't know.
	Yes.
	The OPP and our policing partners, and it carries on, I won't read it all.
	The mission statement in Windsor is very similar to the mission statement that was used in Ottawa.
	Have you ever seen that one?
	No, I have not.
	Are the mission statements, I mean, I don't want to diminish the importance of mission statements.
	I like mission statements too.
	They're very important.
	But these are very generic, general statements that are used in a number of different OPP operations.
	Is that fair?
	The elements are very simple.
	The elements are similar, yes.
	But each situation would dictate the final mission.
	Right.
	So safe flow of traffic, for example, is the thing that makes this Windsor specific.
	Yes.
	This one looks awfully much like the OPP mission statement for Caledonia, doesn't it?
	I haven't seen that one.
	Did you go to Caledonia?
	Were you involved in Caledonia?
	I wasn't on the front line, but as a strategic commander, I was involved somewhat.
	And do you recall the mission statement?
	I don't.
	Do you agree with me that it would...
	I don't want to pull it up, but do you agree with me that the mission statement for a protest like Caledonia would have similar elements?
	They would have similar elements.
	The only thing that's missing is free-flowing traffic, because Caledonia involved an occupation of a different kind, right?
	Correct.
	And do you agree that...
	That one was a very difficult demonstration to try to resolve and was not really ever resolved by a policing solution.
	It was a challenge, yes.
	And do you agree it wasn't resolved by a policing solution?
	I'd have to look at my notes or I don't recall.
	I wasn't involved.
	Sure.
	You were a strategic commander there?
	For some of it.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	Put it this way, those protesters were never removed by a POU action, right?
	Correct.
	Eventually, I think the province reached a financial settlement and acquired the land over which the protest was being held.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	And then a couple of other things, if I can.
	Ottawa and Windsor, very different situations, correct?
	Yes.
	Ottawa, larger, more complex, more challenging?
	Larger, yes.
	More complex?
	Each.
	Each incident had its complexities.
	Yes, but of course I'm asking if you can rank them.
	If you can't, just tell me.
	But isn't it obvious that Ottawa is a more complex problem even than the one in Windsor?
	I would say that it had different challenges than the incident in Windsor.
	Okay.
	And much larger, yes, I will agree to that.
	Can I get from you that the different challenges of which you're speaking are many more challenges?
	I wasn't in Ottawa, so it's hard for me to speak to that, sir.
	Fair enough.
	Now the incident command system and autonomy.
	Today you made a change to the statement that was filed.
	And Commissioner, I'm going to borrow, not borrow, well it is a loan I suppose.
	I gather that my colleagues from Ottawa are not going to use their time or perhaps all of their time.
	So if I could just have a couple of their minutes.
	Thank you.
	I'll be quick as I can be.
	Have they been offered?
	Yes.
	They have.
	We're prepared to see our 10 minutes, Commissioner.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	So, Superintendent, I'll just be brief with a few other things.
	Today you made a change to the statement.
	Do you recall that?
	Yes, I do.
	And did my friend Mr. Al raise that with you this morning before you came here?
	No, I raised it when I reviewed my statement.
	Okay, when did you review it?
	Just today?
	Within the last couple days.
	Okay.
	Had you reviewed it before when it was sent to you?
	Or was it?
	Did they send it to you after they took it in September?
	Yes.
	Yes, they did.
	And you read it but didn't notice that?
	Yeah, I didn't catch it then.
	No.
	Okay.
	The reason I ask is because yesterday I asked Deputy Crowley about whether he knew about that aspect, and I wondered if that's what prompted this.
	Did you see that yesterday?
	I watched his testimony.
	Okay, good.
	Is that what prompted you to catch this?
	No, absolutely not.
	I caught it prior to that.
	Okay.
	And the line that you wanted to take out or did take out was she informed them, commissioners, or the team rather, that the change in direction came from Commissioner Karik and Deputy Commissioner Harkins.
	And you would say, instead of that line, more accurately, you made the change.
	After your conversation with Commissioner Harkins, Deputy Harkins rather, and Commissioner Karee.
	That's correct.
	Now they have, the two senior commands, Deputy Chief, or Deputy Commissioner Harkins and Superintendent, and Commissioner Karee, have strategic, overall strategic command, right?
	Correct.
	And so they set the strategic direction that the critical incident commander implements.
	Yes.
	So there's nothing wrong, am I right?
	There's nothing wrong with Commissioner Karik and Deputy Commissioner Harkins telling you that you should not delay your operation while a letter goes to the protesters in Ottawa, but to get on with the operation in Windsor.
	That would not be overstepping their authority, would it?
	I see it as overstepping.
	The operational control of the incident was mine.
	That decision had to be made by me.
	Yes.
	So what happened in the sequence, and this is important because my friends, I predict, are going to say that what you did in Windsor informs what should have happened in Ottawa.
	So this is important for reasons that you may not appreciate.
	But let me just ask you.
	If I understand it, what happened in Windsor is that...
	A protester, Mr. Neufeld, came to a PLT officer and said, we'll all leave if you give us a letter from the government.
	Yes.
	And so you mobilized the government to write a letter and the solicitor general writes a letter to say, we'll meet with you if you denounce your unlawful actions and everybody goes home.
	Yes.
	And that letter gets to Mr. Neufeld.
	Yes.
	And of course, what does he do with it?
	It's shared with everybody, but it did not produce the reaction we were hoping for.
	Do we know anything about Mr. Neufeld?
	I don't.
	Did you at the time, or did you leave it to PLT?
	I left it to PLT.
	I'm sure the information would be available in my notes.
	Okay, fair enough.
	I couldn't find it, but I'll admit there are a lot of records.
	And at the same time, you said, well, we can't give Mr. Neufeld a letter from the provincial government, from a minister of the Crown, without...
	I did not say it in that way, but I made sure that since a letter from the government was being issued to the protest in Windsor, that people were aware across the province that that was happening.
	Got it.
	And you said, stop the presses, let's not take action until we give a letter to Ottawa, to the Ottawa protesters.
	There was discussion in regards to that, yes.
	And then the commissioner, well, first of all, the deputy commissioner, Yes.
	And expressed the view that that was not the strategy he wished to follow.
	It was suggested that I re-evaluate because I was not aware of the details of what was happening in Ottawa as he was and as the commissioner was.
	Yes.
	In other words, they've got strategic command.
	Yes.
	And may I just please go back to that statement?
	WTS 22, please.
	13. I'll just be a second with this.
	Thank you.
	During a 6.47 p.m. call, and we have the scribe notes, but I'll do it this way.
	On the same day, Deputy Commissioner Harkins told Superintendent Early not to pause enforcement out of concern about the potential impact on the Ottawa protesters.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	I shared with him that I had decided to pause it based on that, and then he shared with me insight in regards to what was going on in Ottawa, and that if that was the main reason, not to pause enforcement based on that.
	Got it.
	And so he called you at that time.
	I don't recall if he called me or I was updating him.
	Well, so if we just scroll up a little bit, I think he called you because, stop, Superintendent Early advised her command table.
	At 6.17 on the 11th, she had decided to pause the enforcement action to pull down.
	During a 6.47 call, Deputy Harkins told you not to pause enforcement.
	So, do you now recall that word got to him and he had a different view?
	I don't recall if I called him or he called me, to be honest.
	Okay.
	Well, if you called him, it was to check in with him, was it?
	It was to bring in an update.
	Okay.
	And when you did, it was that you were pausing?
	It was, yeah.
	It was a discussion of my decision.
	Thank you.
	Deputy Commissioner Harkins said, don't pause.
	We discussed my reasons for wanting to pause, and he said if it was solely based on Ottawa, that you should not, not to worry about it, to remain focused on Windsor.
	Thank you.
	And at the bottom, you pointed out the risk.
	Yes.
	You advised of the risk that police enforcement could have impacts on Ottawa and lead to an increase in aggression and violence by protesters in Ottawa, correct?
	No, the aggression and the violence by protesters was in regards to the response to the operational plan that I was going to move forward with in Windsor.
	But what does that have to do with...
	I'm not following that.
	Isn't it Ottawa that you were concerned with?
	Because look at the last sentence.
	You advised Deputy Commissioner Harkins of the risk that police enforcement action could have impacts on Ottawa and lead to an increase in aggression and violence by protesters.
	Mustn't those protesters be the ones in Ottawa?
	It would be protesters wherever across the province, and so that's why we were discussing it.
	Okay.
	But it includes Ottawa, at least.
	Yes.
	Deputy Commissioner Harkins confirms that he's aware, and then...
	A few minutes later, you have a call now with Commissioner Karik and the deputy.
	And am I right that the deputy got Commissioner Karik on because he wanted to emphasize the message to you that he was giving, which is you should go ahead and clear the Ambassador Bridge.
	They supported me moving forward with the plan.
	Yeah, well, when you say, you see, Superintendent, what they supported was...
	A different decision than the one you had taken to the command table.
	You wanted to pause.
	Yes.
	And they said, don't pause.
	They provided me with information that made me change my mind that the pause was not necessary, that we were ready to go, and reminded me that Windsor was my priority.
	I mean, I know that this can sound like it's semantics, but it's not really semantics, because it's not information they provided to you.
	It's direction they provided to you.
	It was a discussion.
	I did not find that it was directive.
	It was a discussion that we had about my reasons for pausing.
	They simply took a different view than you about the importance of not giving a letter to the Ottawa protesters, right?
	No, the letter was going to be given, regardless.
	Well, okay, then pausing while you...
	But you wanted to give the letter to Ottawa and then let it go and do its work, right?
	That was what my first...
	Option-wise, and that's what I was considering.
	And so they said, here's our judgment as strategic commanders.
	You're a go, clear the Ambassador Bridge.
	Yes, that was part of the discussion.
	Got it.
	Now, then finally, the PLT, we spoke about this briefly, but the PLT was not able to make yards in this protest.
	It was a failure of the ability to negotiate with this group of disparate protesters, right?
	I wouldn't call any work of the provincial liaison team a failure.
	Their effort was there, but it did not produce the results that we were hoping.
	Right.
	And the...
	Well, there are only two ways down this mountain.
	Either those protesters were going to leave because you asked them to leave and negotiated their withdrawal, including by giving a letter from the solicitor general of the province.
	Correct.
	Or you were going to have to...
	Muscle them out with a POU operation, right?
	Use an operational plan from POU, yes.
	Last question then, please.
	Just on the issue of strategic command, could I show you please WTS 39?
	This is the witness statement from the Commissioner, and I just need your help again because it may be important to sorting out the roles and responsibilities of strategic commanders and incident commanders.
	Page 8, please.
	Under the heading Incident Command System, the commissioner said this, and I don't know whether you've seen this, fourth line down, while some incident commanders, do you see it?
	Yes.
	May feel as though they have complete autonomy.
	This is not the case.
	The chief or commissioner remains responsible to provide adequate and effective police services, is accountable to the board under the Police Services Act in the case of a municipal police service, and is entitled to set strategic direction or give lawful orders.
	However, incident commanders should have operational autonomy to carry out strategic objectives set by senior command.
	And that's accurate.
	Yes.
	And so what occurred between you and Deputy Commissioner Harkins and Commissioner Krieg?
	Was simply that.
	Is that fair?
	Yes.
	Fair.
	Okay.
	Commissioner, thank you.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Okay.
	Well, you and City of Ottawa are overdrawn, but we'll see when we get to Ottawa.
	the Windsor Police Service.
	Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
	Good afternoon, Superintendent.
	Good afternoon.
	My name is Tom McCray.
	I'm here for the Windsor Police Service.
	I only have a couple of questions.
	Okay.
	I believe you told one of my friends earlier today that Windsor Police Service was responsible for the arrests that were made.
	Yes, it's their jurisdiction.
	And I take it that they were also responsible.
	For developing the arrest plans, is that correct?
	They worked with me, like every other plan, to create the arrest plan.
	And the prisoner transportation plans too?
	Yes, we worked alongside of each other to create those plans.
	Thank you.
	There's an organization that I've learned about called the Ontario Women in Law Enforcement.
	Are you aware of them?
	Yes.
	And I understand that you...
	Were awarded together with members of both the OPP and Windsor Police Service with the Teamwork Award this past June.
	Is that correct?
	Yes.
	And I also understand that it was Deputy Chief Crowley who put you up for that award.
	Is that correct?
	Yes, that's correct.
	Those are my questions.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	City of Ottawa.
	We ceded our time, so we have no questions, Commissioner.
	Thank you.
	Ottawa Police Service.
	Good afternoon, Superintendent.
	I'm Jessica Barrow and I'm counsel for the Ottawa Police Service.
	Hello.
	I just wanted to clarify one quick thing with you that came out of your conversation with Mr. Curry.
	And that's the change that you made this morning to your witness statement.
	Yes.
	So just to make sure I have it correct, what you indicated this morning was that you had a conversation with Commissioner Karik, as well as the Deputy Commissioner, in relation to whether to stand down the Windsor operation.
	Yes.
	And as a result of that conversation, you ultimately decided to revert course and continue with the Windsor operation.
	Correct.
	And just so that I understand it, the reason for that was because you obtained new information in the course of that conversation, correct?
	Correct.
	And you couldn't otherwise have had that information previously because you were in charge of the Windsor operation.
	That's correct.
	And you had limited information or I think line of sight into that operation in Ottawa.
	That's correct.
	And so it was less a question of being directive and more about sharing information with you that you couldn't otherwise have had prior to that meeting.
	That's correct.
	And so as a result of that meeting, you decided that the risks you initially were concerned about were not concerns after all, and you could proceed with your operation?
	That's correct.
	Okay, thank you.
	Those are my questions.
	Thank you.
	Next, the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
	Good afternoon, Commissioner.
	Emily Tamman for the Ottawa Coalition.
	We don't have any questions.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	The convoy organizers?
	Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner.
	Bathsheba Vandenberg for Freedom Corp and protesters.
	We have no questions for Superintendent Durley.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	National Police Federation?
	Hello, this is Lauren Pierce for the National Police Federation.
	We also have no questions.
	The Province of Alberta?
	Good afternoon, this is Stephanie Bowes for the Province of Alberta.
	We have no further questions.
	Okay, the Ontario Provincial Police.
	Thank you, Commissioner.
	We have no questions.
	Any re-examination?
	No, thank you.
	Okay, well, that was a...
	Obviously very clear evidence.
	Nobody seems to want to cross-examine.
	You are limited I should say.
	Well thank you very much for attending.
	You're free to go and we thank you for your evidence.
	Thank you.
	So given the speedy way in which we went through this I think we'll take an hour and nine minutes for lunch today.
	So we'll come back at two o 'clock.
	The commission is in recess until two o'clock.
	Thank you, Mandy.
	Congratulations.
	Thank you.
	It's a great pleasure.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	All right, people.
	Let me just maximize this PC piece of garbage.
	Maximize.
	There we go.
	Okay.
	I know the audio is going to be terrible.
	They broke early.
	They broke at...
	All right, people.
	Oh, that's me behind me.
	Hold on a second.
	All right.
	The audio is not that bad.
	What I was going to say, there's an episode of Family Ties when Michael J. Fox was studying for an exam and he took some pet pills and was like rolling his chair around the house.
	I don't know what I was going to say.
	Yeah, so something went wrong.
	There was a technical glitch and it started a new stream on YouTube.
	Nobody's really watching it on YouTube anyhow.
	Rumble link is still good.
	But just so everybody knows, they're off.
	They took an hour and nine minutes for lunch today because they went so fast this morning.
	So they're back at 2 o 'clock Eastern Time.
	And I'm going to go back now to preparing for Tropical Storm, whatever her name is, and other stuff.
	So I'll see you soon.
	Going live tonight at 7 o 'clock, election night coverage.
	Okay, go.
	See you soon.
	You remember that episode, too?
	You know, it's really funny.
	I want to get my kids into family ties because I'm sick of Kiki Walkout Bunked.
	I'm sick of Nicky, Ricky, Dicky, and Don.
	I'm also sick of my pleasure.
	Luckily, the timing, it happened perfectly.
	It glitched right after they went to lunch.
	So other than starting a new stream on YouTube, which doesn't really matter, we've still got a good crowd on Rumble.
	Hold on, let's see here.
	I haven't used a PC in so long.
	I hate PCs.
	I hate 'em.
	That warden is the son of 'em.
	And I hate Rumble.
	Let me see what we are.
	We're a good 1,000-plus people watching on Rumble, which is fantastic.
	I mean, people are interested in this.
	I'm whispering, 'cause I don't know how bad the audio is.
	So yeah, 1,280 people watching on Rumble.
	So I'm gonna give the same, well, everybody sees this.
	Okay, okay, Renna's Gates says, thanks, Viva.
	Good.
	So this is gonna go on all day.
	Tonight, 7 o 'clock.
	I'm going to set those links up now.
	Go take in.
	Apparently, we have to take in furniture from outside and stuff.
	And take care of some other last-minute stuff.
	So, see you soon.
	Take this down.
	Booyah!
	And put this on mute.
	Fading Avatar Diva.
	Ha ha ha ha.
	Ha ha ha.
	Ha ha ha.
	Ha ha ha.
	Or a lot?
	The Commission has reconvened.
	Yes, Alison McMahon, Commission Council.
	And our next witness is Paul Lasheed.
	Mr. Lashid, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
	I'd like to affirm.
	For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
	Paul, P-A-U-L, Winfield, W-I-N-F-I-E-L-D, L-E-S-C-H-I-E-D.
	Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence to be given by you to this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
	I do.
	Thank you.
	Commissioner, Mr. Lashid's counsel is appearing virtually and would like to briefly address the Commission.
	Okay, yes, go ahead.
	My name is Lonnie Roulard and I appear for Paul Lashid and I'd just like to confirm prior to the proceeding with the witness that the protections of Section 9 of the Ontario Evidence Act and Section 5 of the Evidence Act of Canada are invoked for the witness.
	Okay, thank you.
	Just for the record, Mr. Lashid is under subpoena and I will deem that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answers may tend to incriminate or may tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or of any other person.
	Before the acts invoked, the witness would, or this act, the witness would therefore have to have been excused from answering the questions.
	Then, although the witness is by reason of this act, or the Federal and Provincial Act, compelled to answer, the answer so given shall not be used or admissible in evidence against him in any criminal trial or any other.
	It's a criminal proceeding against him thereafter taking place other than a prosecution for perjury in the giving of that evidence or for the giving of contradictory evidence.
	So is that adequate then?
	Yes, thank you, sir.
	Okay, with that introduction, I think we can proceed with the examination.
	Go ahead.
	Thank you very much.
	Mr. Lashid, you were interviewed by Commission Council on October 4th.
	Is that correct?
	Yes.
	And Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull up WTS 6049.
	Mr. Lashita, is that a summary of the interview?
	Yes.
	And have you had an opportunity to review this summary?
	Yep.
	And do you have any corrections to it?
	No.
	Okay, then we'll ask that it be entered as an exhibit.
	Mr. Lashid, you live in McGregor, Ontario, is that right?
	Correct.
	And that's about 15 kilometres from downtown Windsor?
	15 to 20 kilometres from downtown Windsor, yeah.
	Okay.
	And what do you do for a living?
	I co-own a contracting business that serves the Greater Windsor-Essex County area.
	Okay.
	And have you been a lifelong resident of the Essex County area?
	I've lived in the Essex County area for the better part of the last 44 years, other than the time I spent at university and briefly in Alberta as a commercial helicopter pilot.
	And can you please tell the Commissioner about how you became involved with protests against COVID-19 public health mandates?
	I would just say like many other Canadians, I've grown a little wary with the, I guess, the direction of our basic fundamental rights and freedoms kind of being transformed into privileges that can be granted or revoked based upon our personal compliance with whatever the latest mandate or bylaw that's being passed down by
	our federal, provincial, or municipal leaders.
	It led me to be a little concerned as a father of three young children, the direction that this country is heading in.
	And so I participated in several peaceful, lawful protests so that people's voices could be heard with these same concerns.
	And can you tell us about those protests?
	I mean, we had various fundraisers for people that have been negatively impacted or had job losses or had their businesses somewhat run into.
	The ground or not being able to make ends meet.
	We've had various freedom rallies at the flag, I guess that you would call it, at the downtown Windsor area of Riverside and Ouellette Avenue.
	And are those the sort of weekly rallies that would take place starting in September?
	I wouldn't say I was there for the weekly rallies.
	There have been weekly rallies, and I did my part to...
	Offer whatever assistance or support that I could at several of these events over the last couple of years.
	Okay.
	And how would you typically hear about protests that you would attend or fundraisers or rallies?
	I mean, I just have made a lot of friends that would attend some of these rallies in the area that have similar concerns that I do.
	So, you know, through text message, periodic meetups where people might be discussing.
	What they would like to do or what actions maybe they would like to take next.
	And would you post about it on social media or sort of join, did you join any groups related to?
	More just like personal interactions with friends that were involved in the same sort of things.
	Okay, so you weren't part of any sort of formal organizations?
	I wouldn't say that there was very many formal organizations.
	It was kind of a loose organization with people coming and going.
	That would be about it.
	And a loose organization in the sense of just you have this network of friends who...
	I mean, like I said, it would be some people that were involved with this maybe prior to me getting involved.
	And then I would meet certain people over the course of these events.
	And that would be about it.
	Okay.
	And did you help plan any of these rallies?
	I mean, I offered support where I could.
	I thought I was a calming influence on a lot of these events when perhaps maybe things got contentious or, you know, offer support in terms of setting things up.
	You know, we would have a soundstage perhaps, and, you know, I would offer support in moving things from point A to point B or hauling things from somewhere to wherever the venue happened to be at.
	Okay.
	And I understand that in January 2022 and continuing into early February, there were slow rule protests on Huron Church Avenue?
	Yes.
	And were you aware of those?
	I was aware of those, yes.
	Did you participate in them?
	No, I did not.
	Like, attend them in any way or anything like that?
	No.
	Okay.
	And were you at that time following what was happening in Ottawa with the Freedom Convoy?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And how were you monitoring that?
	Was it through social media, through traditional media?
	Mostly social media.
	And then, you know, I had a couple of friends that were heading up there at various points during the Ottawa demonstrations.
	Okay.
	And we'll come back to that.
	But you didn't participate in any of the events in Ottawa, did you?
	No.
	So the blockade of the Ambassador Bridge starts on February 7th, as I understand it.
	In the days leading up to that, were you aware that there might be a protest in that area?
	No.
	So we've heard evidence over the last day and a half that there were social media posts about a slow roll and potential blockade, but that was not something that you saw?
	I knew that there were slow rolls going on.
	Was there rumors about this event or that event going on?
	There's all kinds of things being shared across social media, but I was not aware of any organization for an event that was going to start on February 7th.
	Was a blockade of the Ambassador Bridge something that you had heard rumors about?
	Very loosely.
	Like, I mean, you might have heard somebody suggest, oh, well, that would be an interesting idea, but nothing that would ever have been something that I was involved in discussing.
	Okay.
	And you attended the blockade for the first time on the evening of February 7th.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	And around what time would you have arrived?
	I would estimate around 9 p.m.
	And for the rest of the week, would you typically attend around the same time?
	Yeah, I would usually go after my young children were put to bed, and I would head down from between the hours of 8 and 9 until maybe 12 to 1 o 'clock in the morning.
	Okay.
	And so on that first evening, on February 7th, where were the protesters located?
	So where I went was at the intersection of Gerardo and Huron Church Avenue, which is approximately a half kilometer south of the egress point of the Ambassador Bridge southbound on Huron Church.
	Okay.
	up Mr. Registrar could we please pull up the map of Windsor just so that we can see where that is And so, as I understand it, the egress point, as you referred to it, is north of College on Huron Church, is that right?
	Correct.
	So would that be in the vicinity of that purple icon?
	Yeah, somewhere between the purple and maybe just a little bit south of that.
	Okay.
	And Gerardo, that's down the...
	So Gerardo would be...
	If you see the second cross street, I see there's a little, where it says Dot Avenue beside it, and you see like an intersection there.
	That would be where the intersection of Gerardo and Huron Church would be.
	And that's about halfway between College and Tecumseh?
	Correct.
	And so when you arrived at the protest that night, were vehicles blocking the intersection?
	There was probably three to four pickup trucks blocking or straddling both sides of Huron Church Avenue north and southbound at that intersection.
	And so were they driving down Gerardo?
	I'm sorry, I'm going to butcher that.
	That street name?
	Or were they driving down Huron Church?
	So they weren't driving when I got there.
	They were just kind of straddled across, like perpendicular to Huron Church Avenue, so that they were impeding the traffic at Girardeau and Huron Church.
	And approximately how many vehicles were blocking the intersection?
	I would say three to four.
	And did you participate in that blockade?
	No, I parked much further away on a side street.
	And so then you walked in?
	Yes.
	And were most people in their cars or were they on foot?
	They would be on foot.
	Other than those three to four cars that were involved there, everybody else would be on foot.
	Roughly how many other protesters were?
	When I got there, maybe 40, 50, somewhere in that range.
	They were standing in the intersection, on the sidewalks?
	On the sidewalks, some in the intersection of that area.
	And were there police present?
	Yes.
	What were they doing?
	So there would have been police vehicles at the intersection near, I guess, on the east side of that road where the Assumption High School area is.
	And had they set up blockades anywhere?
	So I didn't discover that until after I left that evening, and then I had seen that there was Windsor police vehicles at several of the intersections surrounding the general area.
	And that's on February the 7th?
	Yes.
	And yesterday we saw evidence that protesters had started setting up a camp on the first night and had told police that they were staying put and not moving.
	Is that something that you observed?
	I didn't observe that at the Gerardo intersection, which is the only spot that I really walked.
	Okay, so you weren't at College Street, for example?
	Not on February 7th.
	And you didn't sort of walk by there when you were?
	Well, my impressions at Gerardo was that there was semi-trucks backed up on both north and southbound lanes for as far as my eyes could see.
	So I had no reason to really walk along all of the other semi-trucks on the road that were just sitting there idling.
	And was your impression that they were backed up because of the blockade at?
	Yes, that's correct.
	Okay.
	And what time did you leave the protest on that first night?
	I would estimate one o 'clock in the morning.
	Did you expect that the protesters would stay overnight?
	When I left there was probably a dozen or so protesters left there and I had assumed that that would be a one-off type of event and it would be over by the next morning or later that night.
	So while you were there, you hadn't discussed with anybody that they might stay there overnight?
	I think I might have asked, like, is anybody planning to stay here beyond the evening?
	Because the numbers had dwindled in the three or four hours that I was there.
	And I had just assumed by one o 'clock in the morning when it was kind of apparent that there was more police presence in the area than there were protesters, that this wasn't going to go on for any length of time.
	Okay.
	And you attended the protest again the next night, is that right?
	I mean, I remember asking a friend the next morning, is anything still going on at the Ambassador Bridge or Huron Church area?
	And he said, yeah, it's still going on, which I was very surprised of.
	And so, yeah, I went down the second evening about the same time.
	And was that friend somebody who had stayed overnight at the protest?
	No.
	Did you know any of the people who were in the trucks blocking the intersection that night?
	I'd never seen any of the people in the three or four pickup trucks or SUVs that were there that night prior or since.
	And so on the second night, the protest is more centrally located at College Street.
	Were the lanes all blocked in every direction on, excuse me, Was Huron Church blocked in both directions?
	So on that second night, the protests seemed to be centrally located at the southbound egress point from the Ambassador Bridge.
	So those lanes would have been blocked.
	Northbound, I believe there was maybe one or two protest vehicles on the northbound area, but the entire perimeter, I guess, of the College-Huron Church intersection was cordoned off by police vehicles.
	So all four points of the intersection were blocked off by police vehicles?
	Kayla, I would say three of the four parts, and then the southbound Huron Church, just south of College Avenue, that was where more of the protest vehicles that didn't fit on, say, the north side where the egress area is from Ambassador Bridge, they had started to park on that south section of the southbound lanes of Huron Church, south of College Avenue.
	And approximately how many protesters were there that night?
	People or vehicles?
	Both.
	I would say perhaps 40 vehicles, a few large semi-trucks, and probably between 100, 150 protesters.
	Again, the numbers fluctuated over the times that I was there, usually dwindling as the evenings got later.
	And did the crowd dynamic change as things got later?
	I would say from my interactions with other people, the crowd dynamic might have changed from the daytime to the evening times.
	But from the times I would get there at 9 to 1 o 'clock, which was my average times that I would have been there, dynamic would have stayed the same.
	The numbers probably would have dropped off as people left to go home.
	And could you describe what the atmosphere was like when you attended the protests?
	I mean, there would be music.
	The national anthem would be sung, you know, periodically.
	There would be food being shared amongst anybody and everybody that wanted to be part of that.
	Generally just a peaceful gathering of people that were there for various reasons.
	And did you talk to other protesters about their reasons for being there?
	Not really specifically.
	It was probably largely assumed the reasons.
	I mean, I think I spoke to a few of the truck drivers who expressed their reasons for being there was more in line with the fact that they were about to face losing their ability to cross.
	The international border without compliance with the mandates to cross and drive their trucks to and from the United States.
	But there were personal vehicles there as well and individuals who weren't truck drivers?
	Exactly.
	And do they have different goals?
	I don't think I really spoke in depth with some of the strangers that I was meeting for the first time about why they were there.
	I think it was just assumed to me that they were there celebrating.
	Or expressing their peaceful right to protest.
	And on the Tuesday, what was the police presence like?
	Oh, it certainly had grown.
	Definitely seemed to be a little bit more organized than on the first night when things were a little bit more new.
	They generally seemed to be...
	From the ones that I was able to interact with or witness other people interacting with, very friendly and cordial with the protesters that were there.
	Did you interact with any of the police officers?
	Not more than to be a party and perhaps talks that they were having with other people, other than to offer hellos or greetings to some of the officers that might have been in the areas where I was.
	And were they telling you anything about your right to be there or encouraging you to leave, anything like that?
	On that second night, certainly there was a lot of, I shouldn't say a lot, there were some police officers that would suggest we support your right to be here or we're happy that, maybe not the word happy, we're in support with what you're doing here and everything seems to be peaceful.
	That'd be about it.
	So they weren't advising you that you had to leave or be arrested?
	No.
	Okay.
	And were there more barricades on this night than there had been the previous night, or was it pretty consistent?
	I mean, the previous night, I wouldn't suggest that there was...
	I didn't remember seeing barricades.
	I would say that there was police cruisers at intersections, and I guess if that represents a barricade, that would be what I would say on night number one.
	And then night number two, they would have some of those construction...
	The orange construction, wooden barricades at some of the intersections in the area.
	Okay.
	And I understand from your interview summary that some protester vehicles were able to come and go from the protest area?
	On that second night, yes.
	Okay.
	And how did that work if there were the wooden barriers and cruisers stationed along the intersections?
	So I remember noticing around between somewhere around midnight and maybe...
	12:30 a couple trucks that semi trucks or large large-sized trucks had entered or had had to go around the Tecumseh Road Huron Church intersection to go down some of the the residential streets that would be west of Huron Church and you could hear the horns and they entered I believe at College Avenue And Huron Church,
	where there would have been a police cruiser and orange barricades, and upon them arriving at the intersection, I saw the police officers get out of the vehicles, remove the barricades, and allow the trucks to enter into that intersection, and then basically direct them to park on the southbound lanes of Huron Church Avenue, south of College Avenue.
	And did you see any other cooperation between the police and protesters?
	I mean, generally, I think in that second night, there was an ability for vehicles to leave later on in the evening if they were not planning to remain parked on Huron Church Avenue that night.
	I'm not exactly sure where they were facilitated to come and go.
	I know there's a couple intersections there that would allow you to exit to the west of Huron Church, and perhaps they were...
	You know, the cruisers maybe would have allowed some of those trucks or passenger vehicles to exit at that point.
	I don't remember actually witnessing how they were getting out.
	So it's something that you were aware of, but...
	I just remember, I guess I'm deducing this from the fact that there was different vehicles there, say, on night two from subsequent nights, and I can only assume that they had to have been able to leave on their own accord with police cooperation.
	Okay.
	Mr. Commissioner, I just want to say for the record, the map that I referred to earlier is Doc ID COM50930, and that's a screenshot of the same map that was shown to you yesterday and a link for which was circulated to the parties yesterday.
	Just wanted to clarify that point.
	Now, on Wednesday night, were protesters still at college?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And were there also additional protest sites?
	I had heard that there was some protesters that wanted to perhaps blockade the Wyandotte entrance to the Ambassador Bridge.
	I never went over there to see it.
	I know that there were some protesters that perhaps wanted to be involved with blocking the Tecumseh Road and Huron Church intersections.
	But I never really walked to the Wyandotte area to see what was really going on.
	Okay.
	And just referring back to the map, Wyandotte is where there's an entry into the Ambassador Bridge port of entry.
	It would be like the ancillary entry, whereas the main entry would be northbound here on Church into the Ambassador Bridge area.
	And was that, to your knowledge, was that intersection completely?
	Blocked?
	The northbound entrance to the Ambassador Bridge?
	The Wyandotte.
	The Wyandotte one.
	Again, I didn't go there.
	I just remember hearing some protesters say it's blocked and then you'd hear it's not blocked and then it's been given up to in negotiations for emergency use vehicles to come and go.
	But again, I never saw it with my own eyes to be able to say when it was blocked, when it was not blocked.
	Were you aware of who was engaging in negotiations over things like emergency planes?
	I would have been hearing this third hand from somebody that maybe would have heard those negotiations prior to my arrival.
	Okay.
	And so at this point, was any traffic able to enter or exit the bridge?
	To the best of my knowledge, the northbound entrance to the Ambassador Bridge was always...
	And I believe it was being used by law enforcement or perhaps CBSA to come and go because that's a very large, like two or three lane entrance point to the bridge.
	And it was secured from night number two until the end of the demonstration by law enforcement.
	And it was never really impeded by protesters, although...
	Because Huron Church was basically blocked by or secured at Tecumseh Road by Windsor Police Services or other law enforcement, that you couldn't get to that northbound area as a vehicle.
	No vehicle could really get into that area.
	Were there also vehicles at the, or protesters, excuse me, at the Tecumseh Road intersection?
	Periodically, I believe I would see some.
	But it was a very small contingent that was at that intersection.
	Okay.
	And what was the crowd like relative to the previous nights?
	And this is on the Wednesday we're talking?
	Largely the same as the previous night.
	Perhaps a little bit larger maybe in the number of people that were there.
	But the same sort of things going on.
	National anthems, food.
	More or less a cordial atmosphere amongst everybody that was there.
	Sort of a party-like atmosphere?
	Yeah, but I mean, it would die down from being a party as the evening got later and colder.
	And were people drinking alcohol?
	I never saw that.
	You didn't see anyone drinking?
	Okay.
	Or using drugs?
	I didn't see that.
	And what was the police presence like on Wednesday night?
	So it started to become more apparent that it looked like they were preparing.
	I believe seeing police vehicles that didn't look recognizable to me as Windsor Police Service vehicles there.
	I remember seeing around midnight or one o 'clock, like a green pickup truck with several.
	What I could only estimate would be like SWAT team-type members dressed up in the back of a truck, kind of coming out of that northbound entrance area into the Ambassador Bridge, and they would come and, I don't know, either do whatever it was that they were practicing to do, or if they were trying to gather information, and then they would leave.
	And it looked to you like they were not Windsor police officers?
	It didn't look to me like a vehicle I had ever recognized as a Windsor police vehicle.
	And I believe it was like a green F-250 or F-350 style vehicle.
	So moving to Thursday night, in your witness statement, you said that the police started to encourage protesters to leave the area.
	Is that correct?
	I would say that was on Friday, I think, is when I would...
	I would gather that I started to hear some of those suggestions.
	Okay, it was on Friday.
	And that was a change in messaging from what you'd heard previously from police?
	Yeah, I would say so.
	And how did the protesters react to that message?
	I think most of the protesters still were of the opinion that they were not going to leave until some level of achievement had been made for the purposes of their demonstration.
	And what would some level of achievement be?
	Perhaps maybe a discussion with somebody that they were seeking to have a conversation with.
	I guess I can only speak for hearing some of the drivers of the larger trucks that were going to be faced with losing the ability to perform their job if they weren't going to comply with a mandate.
	And so that was their, in my estimation, reason for being there.
	Did it feel like the protesters were united on that point or did people have different motivations?
	I would say some of the protesters and certainly the ones that were in the profession of driving heavy trucks.
	But again, I'd be assuming what every person's reason that wasn't a truck driver was there, why they were there.
	But there wasn't sort of a formal list of demands that you were aware of?
	There was nothing like that.
	And before Friday night, did you believe that the protest was lawful and you could remain there without fear of arrest?
	Correct, yep.
	And on Friday, did that change?
	I mean, I was not aware of the details of the injunction.
	I had heard that it was being discussed.
	I showed up on that night the same way I had done the previous four nights to be part of a peaceful demonstration and observe with my own two eyes what was happening in the backyard of my own community that I've been a part of.
	What did you understand about the injunction that night?
	Not very much, to be honest.
	Okay.
	But you knew it had been granted?
	I wasn't sure when perhaps it had been granted.
	I just knew that it was in talks.
	That was about the extent of it.
	Thank you.
	If I could please pull up WPS, I believe it's 7049.
	And it'll be page 16. This is an affidavit that was filed in the injunction proceedings.
	And on page 16, there is a message to demonstrators, which I understand was distributed by the Windsor Police Service on February 11th.
	And you can see on the screen that it says, the Windsor Police Service wants to make demonstrators clearly aware that it is a criminal offense to obstruct, interrupt, The offense itself is known to mischief of property.
	The unlawful act of blocking streets at and near the Ambassador Bridge is resulting in people being denied the lawful use, enjoyment, and operation of their property and causing businesses to close down.
	We are providing notice that anyone blocking streets or assisting others in the blocking of streets may be committing a criminal offense and must immediately cease further unlawful activity or you may face charges.
	You could be arrested if you are party to the offense or assisting others in the direct or indirect commission of this offense.
	Is this something that you saw while you were at the protests?
	No.
	Did you see it at any point?
	No.
	Is it consistent with what you were being told by the Windsor Police Service that night?
	No.
	I was never told any of what you just read off there.
	So you weren't aware that you might be charged with mischief, for example?
	No.
	Okay.
	I understand that Friday was the last day that you attended the protest.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	And why was that?
	I think I just got the sense on that Friday that they were going to put an end to this protest.
	And the following Saturday, again, I'm...
	I was only able to go at these later times in the evening after I'd worked all day and, again, put my children to bed at night.
	And on that Saturday, it was kind of clear that things were escalating to the point that this was going to come to an end, and there was no reason for me to head down to there.
	And on the Friday, Ontario declared a state of emergency.
	Were you aware of that?
	Again, I might have heard it on the radio.
	Did that influence your decision to leave the protest?
	No.
	Again, I was just there to witness what was happening so that I could know what was actually going on down at the Ambassador Bridge demonstration because I figured that was probably the only way I was going to know really what was happening is to witness it with my own two eyes.
	That brings up the issue of media coverage, which is something that you spoke about in your interview summary.
	Did you feel that the media coverage of the protest was generally accurate?
	I would say that there was a lot of perhaps exaggeration of what was happening at the demonstration in Windsor.
	It was certainly being painted as something that I didn't witness for the five days that I was there, which was...
	Simply a peaceful protest of people that wanted to have their voices heard.
	And how was it being painted?
	I mean, I remember seeing videos or clips on the mainstream media showing trucks, like, backed up across the Ambassador Bridge beyond that first night, which did, I mean, I think they cleared the Ambassador Bridge within 12 hours or so on that first night.
	So that was never going on the rest of the week.
	There was only, like, four to six semi-trucks that were involved in impeding or blockading traffic on that southbound Huron Church area, and it certainly made...
	The coverage certainly seemed to make it sound like it was much larger in scale and scope than that.
	And was there any information about the effect of the blockade that you felt was inaccurate?
	In terms of the economic impact on...
	Again, I don't know what the actual economic impact is because that's not something I study or really learn or know about.
	So it was just sort of the images that you were seeing didn't reflect what you were...
	I mean, not just what I'm seeing in Windsor, but I mean, I kind of observed the same sort of misrepresentation from what I would hear from friends that were in Ottawa versus what was actually being shown on television in regards to...
	The nature of the demonstrations that were going on.
	Okay.
	So I'm going to go briefly back to the state of emergency that was declared on February 11th.
	Effective on the 12th, midnight of the 12th.
	If we could go back to WPS 7049, please.
	And page 19. This is another flyer that I understand was distributed on the 11th.
	Is this something that you saw?
	No.
	Okay.
	Now, I'd like to...
	Ask you about sort of the organization of the protest and the leadership, which is something I know we've already touched on a little bit.
	But your evidence earlier was that you weren't aware of any formal plan around the protest.
	Am I getting that right?
	Yep, that's correct.
	And so you don't know who started it or how they disseminated the message to go to Huron Church?
	No.
	Sure don't?
	Okay.
	So, to the best of your knowledge, it just came together kind of organically?
	That would have been my assumption, yes.
	And did you observe anyone who appeared to be speaking on behalf of protesters to police?
	No.
	So as far as you were aware, police were sort of just interacting with...
	There were certain groups that the police would be talking with, but not like one central group that it seemed like they would be engaging with on a routine basis.
	So when you say that there were groups that they would be engaging with, do you just mean that on a given day you might see them talking to a particular group of people, but the next day you'd see them talking to someone else?
	Yeah.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So there was no consistency, and who was...
	No, it was a leaderless movement that I...
	I didn't see one focal point that was being discussed, discussing things with law enforcement on a routine basis.
	And did you have a sense that the protest would have ended at some point if the police hadn't intervened, or was it the police intervention that brought it to an end?
	I can only speculate.
	I mean, the police brought it to an end.
	How things would have unfolded if that didn't happen, I don't know.
	But at that point, on Friday, when you left, there was no sort of sense that everyone was going to start packing up and leaving.
	No, I didn't get that sense.
	Something that you mentioned earlier was that some people at the protest felt that they wanted to talk to somebody in government.
	Is that right?
	I wouldn't say that.
	I guess that would be an assumption that I made.
	They wanted to have their voices heard because they had largely been silenced and they probably felt they had no other option as to who could they talk to regarding the mandates that were coming that would force them or cause them to be able to lose their ability to do their jobs crossing the international border.
	And so, And I know that this is something that you had mentioned in your interview summary as well, is that you felt like politicians were refusing to kind of engage with the protesters and hear them out.
	Is that true?
	Yeah, I never saw any politicians came to engage with anybody there.
	So as apart from the protesters generally, for you personally, was it a goal to have a politician come and speak to you or acknowledge the protest?
	No, I wouldn't say that I went there with any goals.
	Okay.
	Could we please pull up ONT50858?
	If you could scroll down a bit.
	Keep going a little bit more.
	Thank you.
	This is a letter from the Solicitor General of Ontario, Sylvia Jones, to the Commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police, which is dated February 11th.
	And it states, this letter is being sent regarding the protest activity occurring in Windsor and restricting access to the Ambassador Bridge, which must end.
	The Government of Ontario is proposing that a meeting occur within an agreeable time period between a select group of protest leadership and representatives of the province to allow their issues to be heard.
	To move forward with our offer to schedule a meeting, all protesters must leave the protest site immediately, denounce all unlawful activity, and encourage a period of quiet.
	This means no unlawful, unpeaceful, unsafe protest activity can occur between the time of acceptance of this offer until the meeting takes place.
	Yes.
	Have you ever seen this letter before?
	So it's not something that was shared with you on the 11th?
	No.
	Was the offer set out in this letter something that you think you would have been interested in?
	Me, personally?
	No.
	Why is that?
	I mean, I was there to observe what was happening and to...
	Support other people that were there for their particular reasons to conduct themselves in a peaceful, lawful protest.
	And so you don't think that other protesters would have wanted to accept this offer?
	I can't say that other protesters...
	There's probably other protesters that may have accepted this offer, but I can only speak for myself.
	Okay.
	Were you in contact with anyone involved in the Ottawa protests?
	I had some friends that had gone up to Ottawa and I would interact with them or ask them how things were wherever they were at.
	And were these friends from Windsor, Essex County area?
	Yep.
	Were they involved in the leadership of the Ottawa protests?
	They were just protesters?
	They were just people that wanted to go up and support in whatever ways they could from our region.
	Were you in touch with anyone who was in the leadership of the Ottawa protests?
	I guess you'd have to define what do you mean by leadership of the Ottawa protests?
	For example, this commission is heard from Chris Barber, Pat King.
	I think I had a brief exchange just to ask if there was any sort of connection between what was happening in Windsor and what was happening in Ottawa.
	Categorical no response to that.
	Okay.
	And when you say you asked if there was any sort of connection, was this, were you asking for support or was this, is there an existing?
	There were so many rumors throughout the entire week of, oh, there's convoys coming down to Windsor and hundreds of vehicles coming down to Windsor.
	And I was just trying to figure out like what perhaps is actually going on here and what might be going on here in Windsor.
	Can you tell us about the rumors that you were hearing?
	About the connections?
	Just that there was constant rumors of more trucks are on their way from this location or that location.
	And so besides Pat King, were you in touch with somebody like Tamara Leach?
	No.
	James Bowder?
	No.
	Any other person who's sort of identified as a figure of a leadership figure within the convoy movement?
	No.
	Was disrupting cross-border trade one of the reasons that protesters decided to blockade the bridge specifically?
	Again, I can only speculate at the reasons why other people decided to choose that location.
	Did you think that that was a reason that the bridge was a good location for protests?
	It's certainly a strategic reason, a spot where you could garner some attention that might allow you to have your voices heard if that was the intention.
	Now, we heard evidence yesterday about children present at the protest.
	Is that something that you saw?
	After 9 o 'clock at night, no, I didn't see anybody that would be considered a child.
	I mean, there might have been some teenagers there, but no, it was usually an adult crowd when I would arrive.
	Did you ever hear anyone suggest that children could be used as human shields?
	No.
	And after the blockade ended, after the weekend where the police cleared out the protest on the 12th and 13th, were you aware of any discussion about doing another protest at the bridge?
	No, I never heard about that.
	So you never heard of the slogan, taking back the bridge, while the police were kind of busy in Ottawa?
	No.
	On social media?
	Ever saw that?
	No.
	And there was no discussion of re-establishing the blockade after the injunction expired?
	Not that I was aware of.
	Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think is important for the Commissioner to know?
	I think you've covered everything in my statement there.
	Those are my questions.
	Thank you.
	Okay, first the Government of Canada.
	Okay.
	Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Lasheed, Cynthia Lau, one of the Council for the Government of Canada.
	Mr. Lasheed, you had testified that you co-own a contracting business.
	You are the owner of a custom cabinetry business in Ontario, correct?
	Correct.
	And that has been in operation for 12 years as far as your co-ownership, is that right?
	Correct.
	And you offer services for designing, building, installing kitchens and cabinetry, bathrooms and custom living spaces, correct?
	Correct.
	You would agree with me that your business uses higher quality materials, would you not?
	Sure.
	And some of those materials are...
	Can I ask the relevancy of this line of questioning, please?
	Yes.
	Go ahead.
	Yes, may I please ask the relevancy of this line of questioning?
	You certainly can ask.
	What's the relevance of his business and the quality of the materials?
	This is a background information pertaining to the overall business and economics of the Ambassador Bridge in the Windsor area.
	So, exploring on the business area.
	Is that okay?
	Sure.
	Thank you, sir.
	Go ahead.
	And some of these supplies are imported from outside of Canada, would you agree with me?
	Sure.
	And some of these supplies are also imported through the Ambassador Bridge Port of Entry, would you agree with that?
	Correct.
	You would also agree with me that maintaining a healthy supply chain has a significant impact on your revenues, would you not?
	Yeah, I would agree with that.
	And you would agree with me that an interruption in the supply chain impacts other businesses aside from your own?
	Correct.
	And it would also impact the automobile industry?
	I would assume so, yes.
	You testified that you've been a resident of Essex County for approximately 44 years.
	Correct.
	And you also testified that it's a strategic spot to garner attention to have your voice heard.
	Correct.
	You are aware of the importance of the Ambassador Bridge for the effective, efficient, free flow of trade and goods into and out of Canada and the US.
	Fair to say?
	Sure.
	And you're also aware that the Ambassador Bridge It's a vital commercial land border crossing, are you not?
	Yes.
	And you would agree with me that traffic disruptions will affect Canada's economy and supply chain?
	Yes.
	Before February 7th, there was a slow roll in the area of Ambassador Bridge for a couple of weeks, as I understand it.
	Is that your understanding?
	Again, I didn't participate in any of the slow rolls, but I was aware that they were going on at certain times.
	Right.
	And I take it that, based upon your evidence, you were following what was happening in Ottawa, mostly through social media?
	Yes.
	And a blockade was ultimately set up at Ambassador Bridge on February 7th.
	Again, my only understanding is that...
	Blockade was set up at Gerardo and Huron Church on February 7th.
	Right.
	And you were present there on that date?
	Yes.
	Do you also understand that the blockade was inspired by the events in Ottawa?
	I can only assume that.
	And the vehicles that were parked?
	We're parked on Huron Church Road, which is the main entrance and exit to the Ambassador Bridge.
	Is that correct?
	Yes.
	And you had testified that on the first evening, February 7th, you parked your vehicle on Gerardo on Huron Church, and then you walked in from the side street onto Huron Church.
	Is that right?
	I did not park my vehicle out here on Church in Gerardo.
	I would have been on a side street far west from that intersection.
	All right.
	So I understand that you were at the site of the blockade from February 7th to the 11th each evening, approximately 8 to 9 p.m. till about midnight or 1 o 'clock.
	Is that correct?
	That's correct.
	And for the other evenings, I'm talking about the 8th to the 11th, were you parked on Huron Church?
	No.
	You were parked on the side street?
	It'd be side streets or perhaps like...
	The strip mall plaza up near Tecumseh Road east of the intersection at Huron Church.
	Right.
	And then you would attend Huron Church by way of walking and you would be one of the pedestrians on the street.
	Is that fair to say?
	I would usually walk down the sidewalk on Huron Church Avenue towards the college intersection.
	And then would you situate yourself on the street as a pedestrian?
	At some point during the evening?
	I would just intermingle with some of the people that perhaps I recognize that would be in the general area.
	The general area of the street?
	yes up here on church and college avenue During the time of the protests, you were communicating with other protesters by way of...
	Chat applications and text messages, as I understand it.
	Is that correct?
	Correct.
	And throughout these exchanges, you were communicating relevant information about the status of the protests.
	Is that fair to say?
	Relevant information?
	I would just say general information.
	Okay.
	So general information, for example, about planning?
	No.
	General information about developments?
	Yes.
	Just of what I was seeing.
	Observations that were happening on the ground?
	Yes, observations.
	That's best.
	Would you agree with me that there was no one person or group in charge of the protesters?
	I agree, yeah.
	And you would further acknowledge that you had described it as a leaderless movement.
	There was a diverse group of protesters.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yes.
	There was no one directing the protests?
	No.
	And there was no agreement on strategy?
	Not that I was aware of.
	And there was no agreement on which intersections to block.
	As I understood it, you said that some of the protesters...
	We had overheard, wanted to block Wyandotte Street to Ambassador Bridge.
	Others wanted to block to come see in Huron, but ultimately there was no agreement.
	Correct.
	And you would be making assumptions about the goals of the protesters.
	Is that fair to say?
	That's fair, yeah.
	The last day that you were at the protest site was February 11th, 2022?
	Correct.
	And I understand from your interview summary that at that point, you saw that law enforcement was building up and you were encouraging people to leave.
	Is that a fair description?
	Yep.
	I would say law enforcement was building up prior to that Friday, though.
	But by February 11th, it had increased in that building up of their Their presence and their involvement at the site.
	Is that fair to say?
	Absolutely, yes.
	And things were escalating, in fact.
	Escalating by what do you mean in regards to the protesters or?
	It was escalating insofar as the encouragement for people to leave and that there was a perception that the law enforcement was pending.
	Fair to say?
	There is definitely a perception and I had overheard a couple law enforcement officers suggest that maybe you've made your point.
	It's time to go home now.
	And you did go home.
	In fact, you didn't return on February 12th, correct?
	I did not, no.
	You would agree with me that a potential unlawful protest Did not deter all of the protesters from returning after February 11th, correct?
	Correct.
	Correct, yeah.
	Because they didn't have a leader to direct whom they followed.
	Again, that would be an assumption as to why they decided to be there beyond then.
	And it was also your belief that on February 12th, there would be skirmishes or mass arrests, correct?
	Can you repeat how you asked that question?
	Sure.
	On February 12th, you had anticipated, as I understand from your interview summary, that there would be skirmishes or mass arrests.
	It became apparent.
	I mean, you saw the militarized police vehicle staged there, and it kind of looked like there was going to be an abrupt end put to this protest.
	And some of your friends were actually present at the site of Huron Church on February 12th, correct?
	They were there.
	I'm not exactly sure where.
	Okay.
	And they told you what was happening on the ground floor?
	I would have heard it from third-hand information after the fact.
	And some of that third-hand information that you heard was that there were individuals who were shouting slurs at police?
	I had heard that that was going on, yes.
	You would agree with me that that could increase the level of aggression of the crowd?
	Again, that'd be an assumption.
	And police, as I understand it, were giving protesters...
	The option to leave the blockade area?
	Say that again.
	They were or they weren't.
	Police were giving protesters the option to leave?
	I believe so.
	But they didn't all leave, did they?
	Again, I was not there that day.
	Well, did you hear from your friends?
	Did all the protests?
	Again, I would have been watching it on social media like anybody else to see what was actually happening on that February 12th.
	Okay, so based upon what you saw, you knew that not everyone had left.
	correct Starting February 7th, I put to you that no other vehicles, except for emergency vehicles, could get through the Huron Church area due to the blockade.
	Well, I mean, certainly vehicles came and went from that intersection that I was witnessing on that second night.
	Well, the Windsor witnesses would say to the contrary.
	As I understand it, you were motivated to attend the protest because you were skeptical of mainstream media, correct?
	That was one of the reasons, correct.
	What was the other reason?
	I mean, as a small business owner that has largely not been economically impacted over the last couple years, I wanted to show support for several of my other fellow business owners who...
	Either lost businesses or were barely able to make ends meet, who wanted to have their voices heard, that had largely not had that opportunity or had been silenced over the previous year regarding these mandates that were adversely affecting their ability to conduct business.
	And I put it to you that the small business owners would include people who relied upon the supply chain being viable coming through the Ambassador Bridge port of entry.
	I can't speak as to how that would have affected other business owners.
	And you wanted a first-hand account of what was happening?
	That's correct.
	You had testified, as I understand it, that you never saw trucks backed up across Ambassador Bridge beyond the first night?
	That's correct.
	So that would be February 7th, correct?
	Yes.
	And as I understand it...
	Among other things, you do not believe that the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge overall has been accurately portrayed?
	Somewhat, yeah.
	I'd like to turn to a video pb.can.401800 _rel.0001 And I'm going to turn you to video footage from WDIV of February 8th.
	Mr. Clerk, could you please turn up that video for me at timestamp 114?
	This is going to be pretty well the end.
	You're now up at the limit of your time, so you're going to have to be brief.
	Okay.
	Also developing tonight, protesters against Canada's vaccine mandate, forcing the Ambassador Bridge to close.
	That group disrupted travel going into Canada, creating a huge backup on our local freeways, especially on I-75.
	The protests all started about 10 days ago in Ottawa, with truckers calling themselves the Freedom Convoy.
	The group opposes a recent mandate requiring drivers entering Canada to be fully vaccinated or face testing and quarantine requirements.
	Tim Pamplin near the Ambassador Bridge tonight with the latest.
	Tim?
	The backups on 75 to the Ambassador Bridge started around about 3 o 'clock this afternoon.
	And as day turns tonight, the situation hasn't changed any.
	Thousands of truckers now stranded on Detroit roads with nowhere to go.
	We got a grin and bear it, right?
	You know, there's just...
	Can't get upset.
	I'm not the only guy stuck out here, but fortunately I do have a sleeper cab and I feel for many of these drivers that don't have that option.
	From Sky 4, you could see the protesters on the Canadian side in downtown Windsor blocking the road and essentially shutting down the busiest border crossing in North America.
	And with the bridge shut down, the backup started piling up here along 75 and the service drive in this rig.
	Naves carrying a load of breakfast cereal destined for Toronto.
	It doesn't make sense to disturb the rest of the public, right?
	So they shouldn't be blocking the borders or they shouldn't be blocking the roads.
	I'm triple vaccinated.
	I'm pro-vaccine, but I'm anti-mandate.
	It's time that the mandates were over.
	It's time that people could travel freely across the border, both sides.
	Pause, please.
	Mr. Lashid, you would agree with me that this is an accurate video clip of the impacts caused by the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge?
	Would you not?
	I would agree that there is, like the last part of your statement, that there was an impact of the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge.
	Mr. Commissioner, may I just show one minute video?
	Okay, but that'll have to be it.
	Thank you very much for your indulgence.
	I'd like to turn to pb.can.401802_rel.301 and timestamp 327.
	This is a video of the February 10th Blue Water Bridge area.
	And tonight, three of the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge with protesters preventing all traffic from entering Canada.
	And tonight, that protest over Canada's vaccine mandate is now having an impact on the auto industry.
	So-called Freedom Convoy forced the shutdown of a Ford plant in Windsor and caused General Motors, the plant in Delta Township, to cancel its second production shift Wednesday.
	The longer the blockade goes, the bigger the impact, with the Ambassador Bridge carrying 25 percent of all trade between the U.S. and Canada.
	With travel still partially shut down there, the Blue Water Bridge in Port Huron has been overwhelmed.
	Tim Pamplin is there with the night cam.
	Going into day four of the blockade at the border, forcing thousands of semis up 94 and 69 to the Blue Water Bridge.
	It's unequipped to handle so much truck traffic, and the backups continue growing.
	Thank you very much.
	So I would put to you that you would agree that these are...
	This is an accurate video clip of the impact caused by the blockade at Blue Water Bridge, which is one hour and 12 minutes away from Ambassador.
	I wasn't there to see what was going on.
	I can only assume that Blue Water would have been far busier because they were not able to cross at the Ambassador Bridge.
	Thank you.
	Those are my questions.
	Thank you, Mr. Commissioner, for the time.
	Thank you.
	Next is the Windsor Police Service.
	Good afternoon, Mr. Lacey.
	My name is Tom McRae, and I am here for the Windsor Police Service.
	First, I think you told my friend for Canada that you parked at a strip mall off Tecumseh.
	Is that correct?
	Yes.
	Did you have permission from the owner of that strip mall to park there?
	No.
	Thank you.
	I understand from your evidence, I think, to, again, my friend from Canada.
	That you used chat applications in your discussions with your friends during this.
	What chat applications did you use?
	Just regular text messaging or Telegram.
	Perhaps there's others, but that would be to the best of my recollection.
	How did you communicate with Mr. King in Ottawa?
	Ah...
	Ah...
	Thank you.
	One of those two, I would assume.
	Thank you.
	Did you have those messages available to you at the time you were interviewed by Commission Council at the beginning of October?
	They would have been on my phone, yes.
	Were you asked to give copies of those communications?
	No.
	Have you produced any documents within this Commission hearing?
	Besides your statement?
	Sure, no.
	Thank you.
	I understand that at one point you said you were not, I want to get your evidence fairly put, you had no goals in attending other than, I'm putting together your answers, seeing what was happening because you didn't trust conventional media and to support your friends.
	Is that fair?
	That's correct.
	All right.
	And you didn't support conventional media.
	Does that mean you did not observe conventional media?
	Just through clips or third-party information that I would have received.
	I certainly would have seen clips or heard on the radio, perhaps, their assessment of what was happening there.
	Thank you.
	And on the radio or through these clips, did you learn about the injunction that was obtained by the City of Windsor on the 11th?
	No.
	So at no time did you learn about the injunction that the City of Windsor...
	I just overheard discussions that there was...
	Talks of an injunction on that towards the end of that week.
	Okay, so you don't know and you did not check to see whether or not that injunction was issued?
	No.
	You said you had friends whom you were supporting by your attending at the bridge site.
	Were any of these friends in the auto industry, employed in the auto industry?
	No, not specifically.
	Did you learn through your review on social media or otherwise of the views of people in the automobile industry?
	Let's repeat that question again.
	My friend from Canada showed you a video clip, the second one, which suggested that there were automobile shutdowns, the Ford plant, I think, and another plant, one in some township in Michigan.
	It's clear, I put to you, sir, that the automobile industry in particular was being affected by the shutdown of the Ambassador Bridge.
	Do you accept that?
	That would be an assumption.
	I mean, I'm not involved in the automotive industry, but it would be a viable conclusion.
	Okay.
	So you don't know, but you don't disagree.
	Is that fair?
	That's correct.
	All right.
	Did you discuss the impact of the shutdown of any of these auto manufacturing facilities with anyone who was employed at any of these automobile manufacturing facilities?
	No.
	Were you concerned at all with the impact of the shutdown of the Ambassador Bridge on any of these people?
	Again, I was there to support friends that I know have been negatively impacted over the last couple years in various professions regarding these mandates that were being put in place.
	And at the time of this blockade of the Ambassador Bridge, there had been a shutdown, a province-wide shutdown a month or so earlier.
	Is that correct?
	I don't know.
	You'd have to get more specific for me to answer.
	All right, I'll move on.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Excuse me, Mr. Commissioner.
	If we could go to your witness statement, and I will get the number wrong.
	It is WTS 49. Thank you.
	Can we pull that up, please, Mr. Clerk?
	uh could you go please sir to the bottom of page five of that statement And I'm focusing now, Mr. Lashid, on the events of Saturday, February 12, 2022.
	Just to make it clear to the Commission, you did not attend on that day.
	That's correct.
	And I think your evidence was, and it is in the statement, that you were concerned that there would be skirmishes or mass arrests.
	I just wouldn't say that it looked like there was going to be an abrupt end put to the demonstrations that were going on all week.
	And like I stated before, I was only ever available or had an option to attend late in the evenings.
	And it was pretty apparent that it was being put to an end and I wasn't going to go back in the evening on Saturday to be a part of that.
	And you were of that view, even though your evidence earlier, as I understand it, was you didn't know that the police were warning that these protesters were engaged in criminal activity, nor did you know about the injunction.
	Is that fair?
	I just made my assessment based on the overall stance that the police had taken towards the end of the week that things were going to be put to an end and the rumors that I had heard swirling that, you know.
	There was paddy wagons or police vehicles staged to be able to conduct mass arrests.
	The second last paragraph of your statement, which is before you, sir, says some of Mr. Leyshade's friends were present at the protest.
	So you're getting a second or third hand.
	Is that correct?
	Yep.
	They told him that some individuals were shouting slurs at the police.
	Did they disclose to you the nature of the slurs that were being shouted at the police?
	It was more the context that they weren't sure of the particular individuals that were shouting these slurs at the police, because I didn't know any of them, and neither did they.
	And I guess the context was more regarding the nature or the purpose of why these slurs were being used, and that would be the extent of it.
	His friends, meaning your friends, believe that these...
	Were agents provocateurs?
	That would have been their assessment that it was a possibility.
	Sorry, so when we say agents provocateurs, are we talking about false flag operations in the language of Alex Jones?
	Again, this is just what I'm hearing third-hand from friends that were saying that they observed this particular activity.
	Yeah, but what was the motivation of these alleged agents provocateurs?
	It wasn't my, it was not my, I was not alleging these, I was just hearing this third-hand information.
	Were they trying to provoke the police into action in order to create a problem that would just grow and grow?
	Or were they provoking people in order?
	Sir, I think we can all speculate as to what people were thinking here, but if we could stick to the strict dialogue that's within my witness's knowledge, please.
	I object to that objection, Mr. Commissioner.
	For some reason, the commission put this in the witness statement.
	It is fair cross-examination fodder.
	The commission is asking, or the commission council are asking, pardon me, that the commission take this as evidence.
	And if it's second or third hearsay, well, I guess that goes to wait.
	But it doesn't mean I cannot cross-examine on it.
	Well, you can ask him about it, but there's only so much he can say.
	I hear you, but I'm just trying to get...
	As far as we can go with what he can say.
	Thank you.
	Let's take it one question at a time.
	All right, I'll take a step back.
	Sir, your friends told you that these agents provocateurs were trying to antagonize the police into using violence?
	I think the context might be that the protest was peaceful for the entire week.
	And there was no reason for any of the people that I knew or any of my friends describing people that they knew there to engage in violence.
	That was never the intention of anybody there.
	So it just seemed perhaps out of the ordinary or it didn't fit with the general stance of the protesters for the entire week that I was there, the five nights that I was there.
	Do you have any insight as to why this stance changed at this time?
	Again, this would be the speculation that perhaps there was people that wanted to have some sort of a violent end to this five- or six-day demonstration.
	And by people, do you mean the protesters?
	Again, this would be my speculation hearing from them, whether it was protesters or if it was in fact...
	Agent provocateurs that you've gone over here that wanted to have some sort of a violent clash with police.
	Because for the entire week I was there, there was no violence being directed towards the police.
	And so it just seemed, from my friends that I had discussed this with, it didn't fit in line with the goals or reasons for any of the people I knew that were there.
	Did you disclose the identity of these friends to Commission Council during your interview?
	No.
	Do you know if they've been interviewed by Commission Council?
	I have no idea.
	How did you come to be interviewed by Commission Council?
	I think we had a gathering of anybody that was a witness to the Ambassador Bridge demonstration in order to offer a written statement of...
	Their own witness testimony of what they saw for the five or six days or however many days any of those people were there.
	When did that happen?
	Do you recall?
	Sometime in the summertime, I believe.
	Late summer, perhaps.
	Thank you.
	Those are my questions.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Next is the City of Windsor.
	Jennifer King, Council for the City of Windsor.
	We have no questions.
	Thank you.
	The Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
	Antoine Dailly for Citizens for Freedom.
	I will cede our time to Council for Mr. Lachitte.
	Cede to whom?
	His lawyer.
	Okay, thank you.
	City of Ottawa.
	Ann Tarif for the City of Ottawa.
	We have no questions.
	Thank you.
	Council for former Chief Slowly.
	Nicholas Stefano for former Chief Slowly.
	We have no questions.
	Thanks.
	OPP.
	Commissioner, this is Janine Kapursi for the OPP.
	I have no questions for Mr. Lashid.
	Thank you.
	Convoy Organizers.
	Good afternoon, for the convoy protesters, and we have no questions for this witness.
	Okay, so it's for Mr. Leishield's counsel.
	Go ahead.
	Thank you, sir.
	Mr. Leishield, it's my understanding that you began attending protests when some of these mandates...
	We're laid down by the government.
	Do you know approximately when that was?
	When I began attending or when the mandates began?
	When you started attending protests?
	I believe it would be in 2021.
	Okay, and how many approximately, can you tell me some details about the protests that you went to in the Windsor area?
	Several of the rallies at the Great Canadian Flag at the end of...
	Oled Avenue and Riverside Drive, one of the rallies in front of the health unit on Oled Avenue, and various fundraisers that were being held to support people who had suffered economic consequences during the past couple of years.
	And would you say that the theme of these protests was usually the same?
	I mean, some of the fundraisers might have been geared towards something specific, but Generally, it was to create awareness or give other people the opportunity to have their voices heard or gather with other people that maybe were sympathetic to some of the adverse effects that they had been experiencing over that last couple years.
	And can you just expand on that?
	What are some of the things that people were protesting about or gathering about?
	Well, certainly, you know, I have friends.
	In professions of nursing or firefighting that had lost their jobs to these mandates.
	Several small business owners who have been pushed to the brink of bankruptcy because they were no longer able to conduct business due to the mandates that had been passed down from federal or provincial politicians.
	So almost similar to trade stopping on the bridge then, some people were claiming that their economic well-being had been cut off because of the mandates?
	Certainly, I would be there to support individuals that I knew who were negatively impacted over the last couple of years.
	So there's a financial element to it as well for some of these people?
	Oh, absolutely.
	There's a grave financial impact to several people that I know and small businesses.
	Other lines of work.
	Now, I noticed that Windsor hosted some protests, if you want to call them that, gatherings, and they had some high media profiles there.
	I understand that Chris Skye was there on August 28, 2021.
	Approximately how many people attended that, do you think?
	Just your approximate.
	I'd guess somewhere between maybe 1,500 to 2,000, perhaps.
	Was it well-publicized?
	From the standpoint of social media, or are we talking legacy media?
	Social media, because it wouldn't be on the mainstream, correct?
	Correct.
	Yeah, it would be shared around the various social media platforms.
	Okay.
	And is that the same way that the protest on, I believe it was September 18th, 2021, There are about 1,000 silent first responders.
	Was that the same type of deal?
	Was it promoted the same way?
	Yep.
	Yeah, I would say it was promoted on social media.
	It was at the same place, and there would likely be 1,000 or so other protesters or gatherers to support the silent protests that the EMS and Windsor Fire Department were conducting.
	So if I was not from Windsor and I was just taking a walk that day touring the town, if I went by, say, the Chris Sky protest or I went past the thousand protesters for the first responders, would I pick up what it was about?
	If you stuck around, I guess, to listen to the various speakers that would be giving their speeches those particular days.
	Okay.
	So, do you believe that the mayor was aware that these speeches were going on when Chris Skye was in town or when the thousand protesters came out to support the first responders?
	I'm not sure where you're going with this, the mayor, whether he knew about the Chris Skye.
	Yeah, I'm looking.
	Sorry.
	I could be helped to understand how this is going to help the commission.
	I'm trying to establish the level of communication between the mayor and these protests over time, such to the point that it culminated in the bridge being blocked.
	Not sure that helps the commission, but go ahead.
	Okay.
	So let me go with a more direct line here.
	Did the mayor ever come out to any of the protests that you were present at to try to understand why people were gathering?
	No.
	Okay.
	And did the protesters ever reach out, to your knowledge, to the mayor, to communicate and say this is why we're unhappy?
	I'd be speculating, but yeah, I believe there were some people who had written emails or made social media posts to the mayor, Drew Dilkins of Windsor at the time.
	Okay, and that would be in line then with the municipal policy on complaints.
	So then the protesters did bring the complaint to the mayor.
	Sorry, are you giving evidence about what the municipal, I mean, I don't know there's any evidence about the complaint process.
	No, I'm trying to understand, yeah, if the protesters had reached out to the mayor to clearly communicate what their ambition was through the protest.
	Yeah, and he said he was speculating.
	And then you said something about the complaint process, which is what I was curious about.
	I don't believe there's evidence about that.
	No, just to make sure the protesters acted fairly in trying to resolve the complaint first with the mayor, with the town, before they set up their protests.
	It might help if you establish they're the same protesters that were doing it, which may well be, but I don't know.
	So the group that was participating in these protests, the three that we had discussed, there was Chris Guy, the Silent Responders, and then By the Flag.
	Were those all the same group?
	Were they just kind of growing?
	Was it the community of Windsor?
	I mean, there was various groups that were helping to organize these events and bring in different speakers.
	But yeah, largely the same people were...
	We're organizing or having these gatherings.
	Okay.
	So I'm going to take you forward now to the night of February 7th, which is, I believe, the first night of the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge.
	Correct.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So when you say that this was a group that was, you know, growing through time and there were familiar faces there.
	Did you recognize any of the people that initially blocked the road where you were?
	No, I had never seen them before.
	Okay.
	And what would you say, like, were there emergency lanes that were left open?
	Throughout the week or on this particular February 7th?
	Just on this one night, were there emergency lanes when the blockade was originally put down?
	So the original blockade that I was witness to was at Gerardo, where the vehicles had straddled here on Church.
	I don't know that I would say particular lanes were open.
	I can attest that I saw one truck driver who had suggested to some protesters that he was diabetic and he needed to move through the traffic in order to...
	Get his medication or whatever it was that he needed, and the protesters moved their vehicles to allow him to pass through the southbound Huron Church area.
	During the first night of the protest, did you see the police put down any Jersey barriers, like the concrete barriers, or obstruct any lanes?
	There was no Jersey barriers on that first night, no.
	Okay.
	And did they obstruct or close down any lanes?
	They definitely secured several areas around the perimeter with police vehicles.
	Okay.
	And what would you say that the ratio was between police and protesters the first night?
	By the end of the evening, there was, in my estimation, substantially more police personnel there than there was protesters.
	So, granted that...
	You know, according to previous Council's questions, there were auto plant shutdowns.
	This is the busiest border crossing in North America.
	It's a vital crossing of the border.
	And it controls the trade for millions of dollars in our country back and forth.
	Do you think the police were capable of shutting this down on night number one?
	I believe if they would have chosen.
	If that was their objective on night number one, certainly the few vehicles at Gerardo and the dozen or so protesters that would have been there when I left, I believe they could have shut that down if that was the intention.
	Okay, thank you.
	And when you were at the bridge, and I'm just going to speak generally about that week, the days that you were there, of course, what kind of an environment was it?
	How did you feel there?
	It was just a peaceful gathering, music, food being shared.
	Very cordial.
	And you said you weren't there during the daytime, so that's fine.
	But when you were there in the evening, did you see any families?
	Not in the evening times, no.
	How did you know that families were there in the daytime?
	I mean, I had other friends that had either gone during the daytimes or shared pictures and videos of children playing soccer or having a festive atmosphere with children and families during the daytime hours.
	So if you were there in the evening when the children weren't there...
	Did you ever witness anybody trying to use or threatening to use a child as a human shield?
	No, no, I didn't see that.
	And did you witness any acts of vandalism, looting, or disorderly conduct by the protesters?
	No, no, no, quite the contrary.
	Did you see any illegal weapons?
	No.
	Did you see any registered weapons?
	No.
	Did you witness any acts of violence?
	No.
	Was there ever a time that you felt unsafe while you were at the bridge?
	Never.
	Did you feel like you were being surveilled or watched?
	I mean, it was pretty clear with the, there was drones that were circulating overhead and some of the law enforcement personnel there would have.
	cameras or smartphones, I guess, scanning around the area to gather their own Were you one of the people impacted with your bank account?
	Was your bank account frozen?
	I lost access to my bank account on February 18th.
	Tell me about that.
	What happened exactly?
	I had gone to my bank to deposit a A check from my business that I had written to myself.
	And upon trying to use the ATM, I got an error message or a message that was not going to allow me access into my bank account.
	I tried a second ATM machine and got the same error message.
	I tried my online banking when I got home.
	And when did that change?
	How long did it last for?
	So, I was able to access my account, I believe, on the following Tuesday, which would be after the family day holiday weekend.
	So, is that a period of about five days then?
	Four days, give or take.
	Four days?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	Did you ever find out why?
	No.
	Okay, thank you.
	And just a follow-up question from a previous counsel.
	Do you need to ask permission to park at a mall in Ontario in the parking lot?
	Not that I'm aware of.
	Okay, thank you.
	So, I'd like to go and revisit some earlier testimony from Inspector Dana Early.
	And this was testimony, I believe it was earlier today or was it yesterday?
	And we've been talking about an exclusion zone or essentially an area that was controlled by the police.
	Are you familiar with that area?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And let's just define it.
	What did they mean by that?
	Just so we can get that on the record.
	What was the exclusion zone or the controlled area?
	I believe the controlled area was at the southern border where Tecumseh Road and Huron Church Avenue intersect.
	Okay.
	And could we please play a video?
	And the code on it is CFF6X014.
	And it's a multimedia file.
	Excuse me, Commissioner.
	I'm sorry to interrupt.
	This is Jananne Kabersi, counsel for the OPP.
	Now seeing that it is CFF 14, this was a video that was provided to us over the lunch break.
	We only had an opportunity to view it.
	Once Mr. Lasheed had already started his evidence, we have no context for it.
	We see in his witness summary that he indicates that he did not attend the protest starting on February 12th with the action.
	So I just wonder how it is that this witness has any connection to this video or can speak to it.
	So that's a concern and I'd like your views.
	Thank you.
	Sorry, if I could join in that objection, it's clear that this video is 30 days, this relation is set on the I do not see Maybe you can help us on why this video is being played for this witness.
	Because I'd like to define where the exclusion zone was and How the crowd was behaving, how the police were interacting.
	And actually, I did receive 2,000 pages of disclosure about 24 hours ago.
	So this was the one thing that we asked to be submitted.
	I did provide it to council.
	Maybe you could start by asking him how he knew what the exclusion zone was and go into that.
	but not sure showing a video is going to assist.
	What's the date of this video?
	And we don't know who took it.
	And it's obviously during a period he wasn't Well, I think it's identifiable to this incident, and I believe it provides geographical information that perhaps could contradict previous testimony.
	Well, I'm not sure.
	Do we know when this video was taken?
	I believe it was...
	So when was it taken?
	I believe it was taken on the 13th.
	Okay.
	And you could start by asking him if he was there on the 13th when this video was taken.
	He was not.
	No.
	Well, I think the video should have been put to someone who could speak to it.
	The video...
	The thing is that there was double the evidence sent out.
	the other night so we went through it all and this was the response to the one to the thousand well two thousand pages i received because it puts the exclusion zone into context and it contradicts previous testimony but your counsel to this witness you're not a party so i'm having some trouble with this So, I'm sorry.
	You can ask him how he knows the exclusion zone and he can explain what it is, but I'm not going to allow the video to go to this person.
	Okay.
	Tell us about the perimeter when you did a perimeter walk around.
	Tell me what you saw.
	The police earlier, I'm going to clarify this first.
	The police earlier had stated that they were clearing certain areas and there were areas that were under their control.
	And the question I have and the reason I want this video for it is because I want to know, is the corner, the southeast corner of Tecumseh and Huron Church Road part of the To my knowledge, the exclusion zone ended at the intersection of Huron Church and Tecumseh Road East.
	Okay.
	And did you see police, and was there any footage that you're aware of that showed violence outside, where the police were tackling people outside the exclusion zone?
	Again, I wasn't there.
	I wasn't there on the days of Saturday and Sunday when the police were putting an end to the demonstration.
	Okay.
	But I believe there was videos of these arrests taking place in areas in the general vicinity.
	Okay.
	And to your knowledge, then, the southeast corner where the gas station is, I believe it's a shell.
	That is not included in the area they said was under control?
	No, I believe they were controlling up to Tecumseh Road and pushing protesters.
	Onto the other side of Tecumseh Road outside of the exclusion zone.
	Okay.
	Those are my questions, sir.
	Any re-examination?
	No, there's no re-examination.
	Thank you.
	Okay.
	I'm just trying to understand.
	You say you know the exclusion zone.
	How do you know that?
	I would be saying I know it based on previous testimony that's been given yesterday, perhaps.
	So you don't know, you just listened to the testimony yesterday?
	I guess the exclusion zone was never something that I was told when I was there at the event.
	I'm just basing it on where I saw the police have their barricades set up in the general area around the entire demonstration.
	Okay, so you didn't really know, you're just speculating?
	It would have been something I would have discovered after the demonstration was over.
	From listening to the testimony here?
	From listening to the testimony here and perhaps videos on social media that occurred after I was no longer participating in attending the demonstration.
	There were social medias educating you on the exclusion zones?
	I think that when you saw video assessment of the end on the Saturday and Sunday, they were...
	They were basically showing where protesters were being pushed out of the area that was going to be secured for them to be able to reopen here on Church Avenue to truck traffic onto the bridge.
	And then just a question.
	You were there for a few days, the evenings rather.
	Is it news to you or did you only find out?
	Today that there were plants shutting down and people getting laid off because of the bridge?
	No, I knew that there was negative impacts to businesses in Windsor and greater areas beyond Windsor as a result of the blockage at the Ambassador Bridge.
	And that didn't concern you?
	I mean, I've been concerned over the past couple years of...
	The impacts that were happening to our businesses for a whole bunch of different reasons.
	So more impact was not a concern to you?
	I mean, I'm concerned for anybody's businesses that are negatively impacted.
	To gauge whether one is more severe than another, that wasn't something that I really considered.
	Thank you.
	Thank you for your testimony.
	You're free to go.
	Thank you.
	I think we'll take the morning break now.
	Thank you, Council, for your assistance.
	So we'll take the morning break or the afternoon break.
	I keep saying the morning break.
	I'm sorry.
	Obviously, I only work half days.
	So we'll come back in 15 minutes.
	The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes.
	La Commission enleve pour 15 minutes.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Order alert.
	Order alert.
	The commission has reconvened.
	Hugenbos?
	I have to move.
	Mr Van Hugenbos?
	Will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
	The Bible, please.
	For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
	M-A-R-C-O-B-A-N-H-U-I-G-E-N-B-O-S.
	Do you swear that the evidence to be given by you to this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
	So help you God.
	I do.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	So for the record, Alexander Hein, Commission Council, Mr. Commissioner, the first thing I'd like to do is pass over to my friend Martin Regman, who is Mr. Van Huygen Boss's lawyer, who has an objection to me.
	Good afternoon, Commissioner.
	Martin Raymond, for the record.
	Mr. Van Huygen Boss has recently been charged in a relationship in relation to matters that he may be asked questions about in these proceedings, namely the events in Coutts, Alberta that took place between January 29th and February 15th of this year, 2022.
	On Friday, November 4th, 2022, Mr. Van Huygenbos elected to be tried by a jury of peers.
	Mr. Van Huygenbos was summoned to testify this afternoon.
	His testimony is compelled and subject to nationwide publication.
	Mr. Van Huygenbos invokes the protection afforded to him under the Canada Evidence Act, specifically Section 5.2, as well as the related provisions of the Alberta Evidence Act to protect his interests.
	Against any self-incrimination.
	He also benefits from and seeks the protection of Section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in his anticipated testimony.
	For the record, he objects to answer each and every question on the grounds that his answers may incriminate him or may or could be used to establish any liability in criminal or civil proceedings.
	He is compelled to provide answers and we can proceed with the questions.
	Thank you.
	Go ahead.
	so mr clerk i'll start with asking you to pull up uh mr van huyghend boss's statement of anticipated evidence which is sae 703 So, this is the statement of anticipated evidence that we sent you a few months ago for your review, is that right?
	Correct.
	And have you had a chance to review this statement?
	Yes.
	And would you like to make any amendments to it?
	No.
	Thank you.
	So, Mr. Van Hugenbos, you're originally from Holland, is that correct?
	Correct.
	And when did you move to Canada?
	In April of 1996.
	And I understand that you currently live in Fort McLeod in Alberta, is that right?
	Correct.
	And what do you do for a living?
	I'm sales.
	I'm an owner in South Country Doors, and my role there is to run the business and as sales manager.
	And so you were City Councilor for Fort McLeod at the time of the Freedom Convoy protests in January and February 2022.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	And I still am.
	And so I understand that you participated in the protest activities that occurred in Coutts, Alberta.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	In your statement of anticipated evidence, you said that the protest commenced as a slow roll convoy on January 29th and that you joined on that day.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	What motivated you to join?
	Provincial mandates the prior years and the federal border mandate as the cherry on the top that broke the camel's back in regards to the residents of Alberta and their views on COVID and that there was so much frustration that We express that through slow rolls
	and similar activities.
	When you say the border mandates, you mean the trucker vaccination requirements?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	And different slow rolls converge in Lethbridge, I understand, on January 29th, and you were planning on driving from there to Coots.
	Is that right?
	Yes, there was a staging area at the Flying J. Smaller convoys or individual convoys came from all parts of southern Alberta and possibly further.
	And so you met up with this convoy in Lethbridge in your own vehicle?
	Yes.
	That was a semi-truck, pickup truck?
	That was a pickup truck.
	And you also said in your statement of anticipated evidence that participants generally understood through social media posts that the plan was to converge on Highway 4 and then drive down to Coutts.
	And which social media posts were you specifically talking about?
	I was aware of a social media page that was being shared on Facebook.
	Okay, so Mr. Clark, if we could pull up a LB four zeros one six seven seven.
	And so just by way of background, this is an email exchange dated January 26. Uh, between a CBSA official and a Government of Alberta official.
	So, Mr. Clerk, if we just scroll down a little bit, that's a little bit more perfect.
	And so, Mr. McCauley from the Government of Alberta says that the CBSA, to the CBSA official, that there is online activity regarding a January 29th convoy to Coutts associated with the brother.
	Broader Trucker Protests, understanding that that means the convoy to Ottawa.
	And he links a website entitled Freedom Fighter Nation and a Facebook group for the Lethbridge Freedom Central.
	Do you see that there?
	Correct.
	Did you come to learn about the convoy through either of these websites?
	No, I was made aware of it through individuals I knew sharing it on Facebook.
	I was not aware of this.
	The first time I see Freedom Fighter Nation.
	But the Freedom Convoy and Freedom Lethbridge, I might have seen it through that or through somebody sharing that information.
	Great.
	And if we can just scroll down to page two, I'm just going to show you a flyer.
	And this was shared by, I believe, Lethbridge Freedom Central.
	So when you were...
	Seeing some of your friends sharing on Facebook about this event, were you seeing this flyer?
	No, this is the first time I've seen this one, but I imagine there was different versions out there.
	Okay.
	And was it your understanding that the plan was just to slow roll down to Coutts from Lethbridge and then go home, or was the plan always to blockade the port of entry?
	There was.
	The slow roll was definitely the focus, but I believe through the...
	Through the accumulation of, I believe the previous slide had 5,000 vehicles or whatever the amount was, we knew it would result in a logistical nightmare.
	And that may have been the intention to create an inconvenience.
	So when you say you knew when there were 5,000 vehicles, how were you aware that there were 5,000 vehicles on the highway?
	Sorry, I go back to the previous slide.
	That was the report from CBSA and the RCMP that speaks to the amount.
	I'm just going to use whatever that amount was.
	Okay, and I think for the records, actually, the CBSA and their institutional report said there were 1,000 vehicles.
	Sorry, 1,000 vehicles.
	Yeah, thank you.
	And we're going to stay on this document, Mr. Clerk.
	If we could just go down to page three.
	So this is a flyer that was posted on one of the websites linked by the CBSA official.
	And it says, lockdown Coutts border, trucks and vehicles all over Alberta planning to head for Coutts starting January 29th.
	Staying there until all mandates and restrictions are lifted.
	Do you see that?
	I do.
	It also says, calling all semis, trucks, SUVs, cars, meeting point flying Jay Lethbridge, which you referenced earlier, 5 a.m.
	Border shutdown on this day that Albertans hold the line to take back our given freedoms.
	Do not budge.
	Do not move.
	Do not surrender.
	Did you ever see this flyer?
	This is the first time I've seen this.
	So was it your personal intention to block the border and not give up until all the mandates and restrictions were lifted, as is stated in this flyer?
	It was never my intention to block the border.
	It was always our intention to create an inconvenience at the border in the afternoon of January the 29th.
	But you would agree, based on this flyer, that it was some people's intention, at least?
	Based on this flyer, I could see that there were people who would have these intentions.
	Okay, so you drove down to Coutts on January 29th, and because this is your first witness to speak to Coutts, and not everyone like us is from Alberta, we're just going to pull up the Coutts protest map.
	Which is an interactive map.
	And I'm just going to show for the public and the commissioners benefit the route from Lethbridge down Highway 4 all the way to Coots.
	So do you see that there?
	Correct.
	And is it the route that you took?
	Yes.
	Other than I wouldn't have started at A, I would have started in Fort McLeod.
	Okay.
	Right.
	But you converged in Lethbridge and then the general convoy drove down to Coots.
	Yes.
	Okay, so we expect to hear evidence from the Mayor of Coutts that he observed the RCMP escorting the convoy to the eventual location of the blockade, the intersection with Highway 500 1.3 kilometres before the border crossing.
	Would you agree with that?
	If that's what happened, I would agree with that.
	I was not at the front of the convoy, so I did not see the RCMP escort to us.
	Okay, so you're not aware that the RCMP was escorting the convoy at all?
	I was aware of the presence of RCMP because they were there.
	The traffic was heading south and occasionally we'd see RCMP fly by or RCMP going north.
	So the presence of RCMP was noted, but I was not aware we received an escort to the border.
	Okay.
	And if, Mr. Clerk, we could then click on Coutts U-turn and unclick directions.
	Thank you.
	And then we'll just zoom into Coutts for the benefit of the public and the commissioner just to see sort of what the Coutts village and the port of entry look like.
	So I understand that some vehicles, when they got down to Coutts, and if we could just zoom in a little bit more, made a U-turn at the point that's the blue point.
	On the corner of Highway 500 and Highway 4, is that right?
	Correct.
	That is the intersection that you can access the hamlet or village of Coutts and being the last major intersection before the CBSA.
	And that's where the convoy was turned around to position it back northward.
	Okay, so some vehicles did a U-turn and drove back out, but others, I understand, stayed in Coutts and parked there.
	Is that right?
	That intersection became very busy as the convoy neared Coutts coming around the corner here after the railroad tracks.
	In between the highways, there is a scale house.
	A commercial inspection facility.
	And when you say a scale house, you mean to weigh trucks that are going through the port of entry, is that right?
	Correct.
	And trucks going south and trucks coming north.
	Right.
	They opened the scale, further slowing and restricting traffic, which in and of itself caused quite the backup.
	But after the scale, individuals could...
	Turn around and further up, once they were back in Milk River or close to, they could rejoin the convoy and continue to loop back and forth.
	But there was also a staging area, not staging, it became a staging area of just people watching this event in the ditches.
	There was a lot of people in one location, so there was no designated area, but it was a lot of vehicles and a lot of trucks everywhere.
	And the staging area that you referenced, is that sort of on or around the yellow point, which I understand designates where the protesters were predominantly located?
	That would be the green points.
	The green points.
	So that's the smuggler saloon.
	Correct.
	And behind the smugglers is a very unofficial truck stop, but it's just a wide open gravel parking lot.
	And for the benefit of everyone here, could you just describe...
	Where some of the semi-trucks that were part of the convoy ended up in relation to the yellow and green points.
	So between sort of where the, I guess that's the northbound lane and the smuggler saloon.
	At what particular time?
	On January 29th.
	We're still on January 29th.
	During the movement of traffic or after traffic?
	After traffic had arrived.
	Well, there was, I believe the backup was halfway to Milk River on both sides.
	Saturday night, a lot of the thousand hadn't left.
	You know, these were semis and they stayed for the night due to the backup created by the border or not the border, sorry, the intersection and everything around the intersection.
	And so were there semis pickups sort of piled up right there that was causing this?
	This traffic jam from Coutts to Milk River?
	Yes.
	What did that look like?
	It looked like semis and semis parked through the intersection preventing the flow of traffic.
	And where were you at this time?
	I was, I would say, in the vicinity of the blue, the yellow, the green.
	I was in the area.
	So you sort of parked your pickup truck and you were wandering on foot, or were you in your vehicle stopped?
	My pickups were initially in the parking lot behind the green dot.
	Okay, so we're going to move forward then to January 31st.
	So by January 31st, I understand that some vehicles had left.
	Coots and either had returned home or gone further up Highway 4. And I'm referring, or I'm getting this information from the CBSA's institutional report that said that there were 176 vehicles sort of left around that time.
	Does that accord with your recollection?
	Yeah, possibly, yeah.
	Okay, so the rest of the 1,000 vehicles had pretty much gone home.
	Correct.
	It was never the intention to remain.
	Well, right.
	But we did establish earlier that it might have been some people's intentions to remain some of those people making up the 176 vehicles that stayed behind.
	Right.
	so mr clerk if we could pull up pb nsc can four zeros one four seven three
	And so this is an email from the Commissioner of the RCMP, Brenda Luckey, to the Minister of Public Safety, Marco Mendicino.
	The Deputy Minister of Public Safety at the time was Rob Stewart and the President of the CBSA, who at the time was John Osowski.
	Could you slow down a bit for the interpreters?
	Thank you, Commissioner.
	And the date here is January 31st.
	Do you see that?
	Yes.
	And if we just scroll down a little bit.
	A little bit more.
	So at the bottom of the page, we see that point right there that says Highway 4. So that's the third point down under current status.
	So it says Highway 4 to and from the Canadian side of the border crossing at Coutts, Alberta remains completely blocked.
	The blockade, primarily the semi-truck blocking the northbound lane with smaller truck reinforcements, is being controlled by splinter groups.
	The organizers of the COOTS protests are distancing themselves from the splinter groups.
	She then says that the RCMP's Consultative Conflict Management Group, which is the RCMP's equivalent of a police liaison team, Continues to engage protest participants.
	However, the engagement from the organizers has diminished and the splinter groups have not been receptive.
	Do you see that there?
	Yes.
	And so at this point, had you established yourself as a spokesperson for the protesters?
	This is on January 31st.
	No.
	Do you know who she's talking about when she says organizers?
	I believe the individuals that would have built the posts, the two previous pages that organized the slow roll and invited people to participate in this protest.
	The two previous pages meaning that email that we saw with the two links to the website and the Facebook group, is that what you mean?
	Correct, yeah.
	Okay, so Lethbridge Freedom Central and the other website.
	So at this point, I understand that you had communications with the police and specifically CCMG officers later on, and we'll get to that in a minute.
	But at this point on January 31st, had you had any contact with the RCMP's CCMG officers?
	Not that I'm aware of, but it might have been in passing outside of any official goal.
	You know, we were never...
	Hiding the RCMP had full ability to walk through our midst and to drive around, etc.
	We didn't blockade the RCMP from engaging with us.
	Okay, but it wasn't as though you were engaging with the RCMP on behalf of the protesters?
	No, there was very little structure being so organic of a protest.
	We all converged as individuals and possibly as groups, smaller groups from different municipalities.
	To this location.
	And from there, it speaks to splinter groups, but there was no groups that were previously engaged in anything that were part of this.
	It was, when I say groups, it would be, you know, six people came from the town of Cold Hill and they're familiar with each other and they drove in a convoy together, so they're going to band with each other if they're all of a sudden with.
	Individuals they don't know, right?
	You stick to your own until you become familiar with each other.
	Right.
	So because it was like an organic protest, sort of a grassroots movement with different people from all over Alberta, when she says splinter groups, you also don't know what she's referring to.
	So when I think splinter groups, I think we're talking more in different positions, different views on where we were at that time in regards to the border or the highway was blockaded by multiple.
	Trucks, not just one.
	They may have the perception that if one truck moved, traffic could flow, but essentially it was a combination of vehicles that created the inconvenience at that intersection.
	Okay, so let's then move to the next day, which is February 1st and also February 2nd.
	So at this point, had the RCMP set up checkpoints?
	On Highway 4, as well as Highway 500, which is the highway that we saw earlier with the map.
	I don't believe the checkpoints were set up at that time.
	Okay.
	Do you know when the RCMP set up those checkpoints?
	I believe they set up the checkpoints later in the day on February the 1st.
	Okay.
	Later in the day on February 1st.
	Yes.
	Traffic was able to free flow back and forth.
	You know, people came, people left on the Sunday, which is the 30th, 31st.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, I believe they set up checkpoints later in the day on the 31st, not the 1st.
	Okay.
	On the Monday.
	Okay, so Mr. Click, I'll just ask that you zoom out on this map, just so that everyone can see when we say checkpoints.
	We're referring to the points in red.
	Mr. Van Hugenbaus, is this accord with your recollection of where the checkpoints established by the RCMP were?
	This is some.
	There was more.
	Every dirt road leading to Highway 4 would have had a checkpoint.
	So these may be the majority of the gravel roads, but there were more entrances and exits that were being monitored by the RCMP or...
	Okay, so there were some protesters still in Coutts.
	And if we zoom in, Mr. Clerk, to the point at the top near Milk River where there's a yellow and a red.
	So this is a checkpoint by the RCMP in red.
	Were you ever aware of this checkpoint?
	So the red became a...
	So these checkpoints were all established.
	When this red checkpoint on the highway was created.
	Because the traffic, the most convenient way to Coutts was on the highway going, you know, the speed limit, 110 kilometers an hour.
	But if you were to hit that checkpoint, any Albertan from this area would take a side road and take five minutes and make their way to Coutts through a back road, etc.
	That's when all the additional checkpoints in the previous slide were established.
	So, the goal of this red checkpoint was to prevent the COOTS blockade from being built up with more trucks and more protesters.
	Okay, so was your recollection that this was sort of one of the first or the main checkpoints that was established?
	I believe they would have all been established at the same time.
	There would have been an RCMP objective to prevent the public from having easy access to COOTS.
	What about one of the main checkpoints?
	It is definitely the main checkpoint.
	It is the main checkpoint.
	Okay, thank you.
	And you just alluded to this, but this checkpoint had the effect of having sort of a buildup of traffic that led to a second location of protesters, which is identified by the yellow point.
	If you could please sort of walk us through how that happened and what that looked like from your perspective.
	As previously mentioned, the slow roll and its possible intentions by different participants of the slow roll and protests resulted in the blockade.
	Once the weekend was over and it was still there, I wouldn't say it hit the news right away, but it became...
	Through social media platforms, through alternative media, and possibly even through MSM, it became something newsworthy, and it attracted individuals.
	So these individuals would come to Coutts and essentially bolster the ranks of the protesters, etc.
	It just grew and grew.
	The RCMP...
	Their intentions was to prevent this.
	As a result, this Milk River blockade, is what it's called, or Milk River protest, was formed.
	And the amount of individuals that converge on this site was initially vehicles from the surrounding areas within an hour or two parked in their trucks, parked in their cars, parked in their whatever they were using to get there, all pointing south, looking to get to Coutts with the RCMP.
	In the way of their ability to do that.
	Very quickly, camp was set up and it became something similar to COOTS, but in support of COOTS.
	You know, it was always the attention to get to COOTS, right?
	That was their goal.
	Right.
	So there was a Milk River protest, Milk River blockade around that checkpoint, which is checkpoint 10 for the record.
	And there was a secondary location in Coutts, but the idea is that the Milk River protesters were there because they wanted to get to Coutts to join.
	Correct.
	Okay, and you were personally located in Coutts at this time, is that right?
	I had the ability to...
	No, at that time, until this was established, I was in Coutts, correct.
	Okay.
	And so we're still on February 1st and 2nd.
	I understand and...
	You'll provide more clarity on this, that some protesters got around checkpoint 10 using either tractors or other vehicles to get to Coutts, and this led to an enforcement effort by the RCMP.
	Could you please describe what that looked like, what that event was from your point of view?
	So the events were the enforcement effort commenced on the 1st, on Tuesday, in Coutts.
	Being organic in nature, the trucks were on the highway on both lanes, going north and south, but in that particular area, the lanes were actually facing east and west.
	If you want to go back to that slide, I could explain that.
	Sure, yeah, Mr. Quinn, we could go back down to Coutts.
	Right, so right around the commercial inspection site, you can see the highway here is actually east to west for all of a mile from the intersection, from the Yellow bullet point till about the "Welcome to Alberta" sign.
	At that time, that highway, both lanes, both directions was full of motorized vehicles, anything from tractor-trailers to trucks to whatever was on the highway.
	And the RCMP staged close to the railroad with, I would say, 100 officers.
	And started to commence enforcement in the form of knocking on the vehicles, the truckers or the protesters were in their vehicles and asking them to leave or face arrest.
	So one by one, it was a pretty obvious decision for most.
	You know, it was time to leave.
	They were able to work their way down one lane truck by truck without any ability to, without us.
	Giving us any ability to respond or do anything about it, right?
	We were watching it from our vehicles, and we've seen the RCMP come closer.
	This was all being streamed on many social media platforms, Facebook, TikTok, I think Telegram, and others.
	So you have these individuals at the Milk River blockade who are looking to get to Coots, who have been...
	And we're talking...
	It was a balmy weekend, you know, 10 degrees in January, but Monday morning, the weather turned sour, and it was minus 30 that first week.
	So you're talking about individuals who are looking to get to coots who are in there, camped out in their vehicles in extreme temperatures.
	They are seeing enforcement action, and a lot of these individuals were farmers, like there was a lot of equipment there, these were neighbours, these were people we knew or were...
	Acquaintances to others at Coutts since the 29th.
	So they see this happening on their screens.
	And without us being aware, we've seen the video after, they proceeded to essentially hit the ditch or go around the police barricade, which was on, I believe it was parked on the pavement.
	And they had been civil in regards to obeying that.
	That blockade, but once they've seen the RCMP enforcing in Coutts, obviously it starts with one or two and the rest follows, but most of that blockade was able to traverse that.
	Most of the supporters were able to traverse the blockade and make their way down the highway, both lanes, toward Coutts.
	And there was, I don't know if there's videos as evidence, but there was multiple videos shared of that event as well.
	When you say the Milk River protesters could see the enforcement action that the RCMP was doing in Coutts, which prompted them to try and sort of go around the barricade to join up, you mean through social media, right?
	They didn't have line of sight themselves.
	No, no, there was no line of sight.
	It would have been they came to our assistance is essentially the term.
	And that's because the Milk River blockade was about...
	20 kilometers north of the Coutts port of entry, is that right?
	Correct.
	Okay, so I understand that then on February 2nd, this sort of all came to a head and there was a bit of a standoff, you could call it, between the protesters and the RCMP, is that right?
	Correct.
	So as I was in my truck driving around in this area of the highway that's heading east to west, just...
	You know, looking at the situation and thinking, you know, this will be over in hours.
	And all of a sudden, we see through, and it was a blizzard.
	We see these trucks and these pickups and these tractors come through the blizzard from nowhere.
	And the protesters were able to coordinate a barricade.
	Instead of trucks on a highway that they could work one, two, three, we were able to form a barricade.
	Essentially, fence to fence, ditch to ditch, which now gave us the ability to form a line and have a standoff with the RCMP.
	And what did that look like?
	It was a peaceful standoff.
	The RCMP and the protesters never came within, I would say, 50 meters of each other.
	So initially when the equipment rolled in, the RCMP retreated because it was hectic.
	You know, tractors came in through the ditches on the highway and out of nowhere was a surprise to them as much as it was to us.
	I imagine they may have heard about it as they blew the barricade in Milk River.
	They would have had 10 minutes more notice than we did through their official channels.
	But when it came in, they retreated back to...
	The sheriff buses and a bit of the mobile command they had set up on the highway.
	And I would say 20 minutes later, they commenced a second effort with either the same amount or additional support.
	And on the first attempt, most people were in the saloon.
	It was cold.
	And a few people were just monitoring the situation.
	On the second attempt, the protesters...
	Came outside and we formed, we stood in front of the equipment, we formed a line and we sang O Canada and we just held a, it was a face-off.
	It was at a point where this was where we would all be arrested and systematically removed or the alternative which is what happened and the RCMP retreated.
	On their second attempt.
	And that's where the enforcement action stopped.
	Right.
	And part of the resolution of this, I understand, is that two RCMP sergeants, I believe Sergeants Tulloch and Switzer, who are CCMG officers, came to the smuggler saloon to speak with the protesters and see if they could sort of negotiate a resolution.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	So Greg and Troy, sorry, I'm going to, I'm going to, that's their first name.
	I'll stick to that because there was two groups.
	And just for clarity, when you say Greg and Troy, you mean Greg Tulloch and Troy Switzer?
	Correct.
	I believe they were part of the initial slow roll.
	The RCMP was aware of the slow roll, so they had officers and they had sent staff down to monitor the situation.
	So they had been there from the onset of the protest.
	Initially, the RCMP took the heavy-handed approach.
	Regarding enforcement, the failure of that resulted in a direction from RCMP toward more of a negotiation stance.
	And even that, they came in fairly heavy.
	They showed up in the saloon and they essentially ordered us off the highway.
	And that was met with a very decisive no by everybody involved.
	But you were still able to resolve, I understand, that you would keep one lane open in the northbound lanes and then one traffic lane open in the southbound lane.
	Is that right?
	So due to the situation on the ground and the enforcement action, we were aware the RCMP, you know, our fight was never the RCMP.
	That was the enforcement.
	We were looking to get the attention of our province, of the government.
	We've been trying unsuccessfully to do that for two years.
	Two years or 18 months at that time.
	And obviously, we knew the RCMP would respond and commence with enforcement and possibly communication.
	But the RCMP was never...
	That was never...
	When I say the struggle, they were never part of that.
	They were automatically involved.
	So they came into the...
	Into the saloon and we worked out an agreement which also came from a position of we have to, I wouldn't say retreat, we have to work with the RCMP due to our position.
	Our position was based on how many trucks and how many people do we have, right?
	Strength in numbers.
	You know, if we have too bold of a position without the equipment and the trucks and the people to back it up, the RCMP may enforce.
	If we open up some lanes, then we are a legal protest in the view of the RCMP, and they may let us stay to fight.
	And when I say fight, I don't want to use that in a term other than we were there to fight another day.
	And that is what happened.
	I believe either late in the evening of the 1st or the morning of the 2nd, we, through communication with the RCMP and obviously the concerns of the village of Coots by having most of their access restricted, we actually, there are three things.
	There was something that happened before.
	There was unintended truckers that were blockaded behind our trucks that were looking to go south.
	And they had spent the weekend and we had let them go.
	You mean commercial vehicles that were not protesters?
	Correct.
	They were held on that highway behind the trucks that were blockading traffic, right?
	They were there.
	It's not like we gave...
	It's not like there was a sign of Lethbridge that said, future blockade, please don't proceed down this highway.
	So there was an unintended...
	There was truckers that were unintentionally stuck behind this, and it was never our intention, so we let them either turn around or go south.
	This would have been the Monday.
	This would have been before the enforcement action.
	We would have already cleared out the trucks.
	Okay, so like January 31st.
	Exactly.
	So I just wanted to make that note.
	It's not necessarily relevant, but it matters that we were never there to cause grief to unintended participants.
	Back to the lanes opening up, we were in discussions with residents, school board, et cetera, to allow the buses free flow, to allow traffic, the residents in and out, all of that.
	Plus, we were in no position to hold the highway shut, so we opened up a lane on each side.
	Okay, and I understand that from then, that point forward, you sort of became the main point of contact for the RCMP, is that right?
	That was never officially, you know, you're the point of contact.
	I think that comes back to more who I am, my character, my position as a town councillor.
	My ability to articulate well, all of that put me in a position where I was most, I would say, skilled.
	I've never been trained for this, but in this case, most skilled to deal with the RCMP and any other conflict.
	And would you say you had a good relationship with the RCMP officers that you spoke to?
	The RCMP would attest to this, but we had a phenomenal working relationship.
	We agreed.
	We agreed on many things and we disagreed on others, but we never stopped communicating.
	And you texted, you called, was it through email?
	How did you communicate?
	It would have been through text and call.
	And I understand that some officers also came to the smuggler saloon, which had sort of been established as the headquarters by that point, to sort of do check-ins with you.
	Is that right?
	Most of the interaction happened away from the smuggler saloon.
	The in-person interactions?
	The in-person interactions.
	I do know they, I would look for them away from the saloon, but they always looked for me in the saloon, which I always knew it gave them the ability to walk through the saloon and make notes and check up on us without, as a, you know, hitting two birds with one stone.
	They're coming to talk to me, but they're also checking out the situation inside the building, which we never restricted them.
	We were never hiding anything.
	They stood around the fires with us.
	You know, they were offered.
	Meals, etc.
	I don't know what protocol is, whether they declined or whether they accepted, but there was no official meeting point.
	It was very organic and the best conversations happened on the side of the road in the vehicle when it was colder or on the back of the tailgate when it was warmer.
	And so I understand, we'll just touch on this very briefly, that there was only one time where communications between you and the RCMP officers failed, and that was on February 12th when you were out of contact or you didn't have cell service and some excavators were damaged by the place by accident.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	So now we're jumping ahead to the second week.
	The first week was definitely a struggle.
	And we'll come back to the first week, but just for the purpose of the excavator.
	If you could just speak to that.
	Yeah, so just a little bit of lead up to the event.
	It was always a matter of position in regards to us and in regards to the RCMP.
	We had to respond to the RCMP in such a manner that they wouldn't enforce or felt the need that all ability to resolve the situation through communication had failed, so they would enforce, but at the same time maintain enough of a position to stay.
	That eventually we caught the attention of the provincial government.
	And it was a tricky business to maintain that position where the one side wants you off the highway yesterday and we had to stay on that highway just long enough to possibly enter in, not necessarily negotiations, but to open up lines of communication with the provincial government.
	So, we brought in trucks, we brought in tractors, and when we say we, people brought tractors.
	It was very organic.
	We never said no to anybody that wanted to come and support us.
	People came from anywhere in southern Alberta, sorry, western Canada.
	Ottawa was obviously the initial draw, and the event here was to support Ottawa.
	At the same time that the Freedom Convoy rolled into Ottawa, we rolled into Coutts.
	But this was, for most people, a lot more accessible than Ottawa, for myself as well.
	So the excavators were, for us, a very symbolic thing.
	And can you just, for those who don't know what an excavator is, just describe what that is briefly?
	Ohio.
	So it's a construction, it's a piece of...
	Equipment that is used for earthwork, it's called an excavator.
	So I imagine most people know what an excavator has ability to dig trenches, etc.
	Right, and so there were a few and they were flying flags, is that right?
	No, that was the intention.
	So these excavators were positioned a couple miles away from Cootes.
	And all it was was a distraction, and it definitely became a distraction, but the intent was to catch the eye of the RCMP.
	We never could have imagined the actual response we got.
	So these pieces had to be hauled in individually, one at a time.
	So we got permission from the property adjacent to the highway to do this on their property.
	And we slowly drove them in like they got unloaded off the road and then they had to get walked in and they probably they probably go about two kilometers an hour.
	It's a very heavy piece of equipment and over I believe on the so the Friday would have been the sorry we're on the 12th 11th I believe the 10th is that the Friday?
	I believe so and and I think Just for the sake of time, maybe if we could fast forward a little bit to the actual event.
	We brought in three excavators, one by one.
	And when the first one showed up, I'm pretty sure it was noted excavator on the side of the highway.
	When the second one showed up, the RCMP and the province have notes that speak to no construction activity being in the vicinity and it being noted and them being very aware of two excavators on the side of the highway.
	You know, as to what's going on here, who's doing this?
	When the third one rolled in...
	It resulted in a very...
	It resulted in a heavy response.
	40 officers descended on that field and on those individuals operating those high holes, and they were ordered to retreat.
	I got the phone call at that time.
	I was actually in a meeting with some individuals in Milk River, and I had...
	I took the call and, you know, they explained the situation and I had said, okay, well, just pull them back.
	It's never our intention.
	There is no intentions here other than to, you know, cause a distraction, fly some flags.
	So they retreated over the hill.
	There was a misunderstanding that they would be removed from the area fully.
	Unfortunately, it took three days to bring them into the area and the trucker...
	He has 13 hours a day to legally operate.
	He did not have the ability to remove those.
	I had a family weekend planned for months prior, and I had the ability to sneak away for 10 hours.
	And to get there, I went through, it's called the Whiskey Gap, and it's without service.
	So as I was rolling into this part of the country, just outside the Milk River blockade, I got a call from, I think I sent Greg and Troy a text message because I knew they were off.
	Like they had two different groups of CCMGs.
	So Chris and Mark were on on Sunday and Greg and Troy, you know, it was a frustrating day and there was a lot of tension regarding the excavators, but it was resolved in my mind.
	And I said, hey, have a good weekend and see you next week is what I had said.
	And I got the call that the understanding was to move these excavators.
	Out of the area and they are not gone.
	And I had said, well, we can move them further, you know, but we can't get them out of the area right away.
	It just isn't possible.
	I went into service.
	The call was dropped and I got out of service and my message, I got a few messages.
	Sorry, Mark, of the decision was made.
	We've had to disable these protectors.
	And that's because the RCMP thought the excavators were...
	It was too big of a liability in their mind.
	You know, they looked at this from a we're going to dig up the highway perspective.
	And I understand that those machines have the ability to do that.
	But that was never our intentions.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And in the course of your answer, you spoke a few times about engagement from the provincial government.
	That's something that you were looking for.
	Is that right?
	I believe that's something that everybody was looking for.
	You know, if we look at the state of affairs, and I'm not going to speak to Alberta, because that's, you know, most of the emergency measures and the mandates were provincial.
	And each province dealt with it differently.
	But in my view, Alberta took a fairly heavy handed approach for, you know, for freedom loving Albertans.
	And the worst part was the inconsistencies and the lies.
	The communication from the province that we weren't going to lock down again or open for summer, open for good.
	Or, you know, Calgary Stampede 2021, Kenny was on the record saying we will never have a vaccine passport.
	One month later, we have the RIP program, which is essentially the same thing.
	The worst part was the lies.
	The lies to To the UCP members, to Albertans who were involved politically and now, you know, we were being governed by an emergency committee.
	We were being governed by the health authority.
	We had no direct communication through our Westminster parliamentary democracy.
	Right.
	So, I don't mean to cut you off, but we do need to get to this document.
	So, Mr. Clerk, it's COEU-6016.
	And while Mr. Clerk is pulling that up, this is the text message exchange between the Mayor of Coutts and Rajan Sani, who's the Minister of Transport of Alberta.
	And we'll just wait for that to go up.
	So, if we go to page 9. A little bit further down.
	All right, so it says that MP Motz, and I understand that to be Glenn Motz, member of parliament, mayor, and then it's redacted, and I being the mayor of Coutts, so the blue bubble are from the mayor of Coutts, met with RCMP command, then paid a visit to the truckers for a few minutes.
	And then he goes on to say Motz met with Marco up at the Milk River blockade.
	The message we are all pushing is clear the road, enough to be breaking the law, and protest all you want.
	Consistent messaging is very important, still missing a provincial government voice.
	So did you meet with MP Glenn Motz in Milk River at some point?
	Correct.
	And did you discuss federal mandates?
	We discussed, absolutely we would have discussed federal mandates.
	Glenn Motz is the MP for Medicine Hat area.
	And I do look at this message here.
	I think it says clear the road enough to be breaking or probably meant to be saying not breaking.
	Yeah, I think that's probably right.
	I don't want to get Glenn into any hot water here, but I believe that's what he would have meant.
	Yeah, and so February 5th, still missing a provincial voice, a government voice.
	Then we have an answer by the Minister of Transportation, Rajan Sani, who says, Hi, Jim.
	Are there any MLAs out there?
	And then, Mr. Clerk, if we could just scroll down.
	Haven't seen any, although Grant says he has been off and on all week.
	So I take this to mean Grant Hunter, who's an MLA in Alberta.
	Is that correct?
	Correct.
	Grant was there on the first Sunday, which is public knowledge.
	I'm not aware of him attending the protests on other occasions.
	And did you sit down with him at all?
	I did sit down with him in Milk River.
	Unofficially, obviously, because that's what the previous text message speaks to.
	We had communication with individual MLAs, individual MPs, mainly opposition MPs, right?
	Alberta is mainly CPC.
	And that was about the mandates?
	That would have been about, on a provincial level, the provincial mandates in regards to the MLAs and obviously the federal mandate, specifically the travel mandates and the border mandates with the MPs.
	And so, I guess when I say you're talking about mandates, was the idea that you were asking them whether they could do anything to sort of lift the mandates, which would have resulted in the protest resolving itself?
	Yeah, so we were looking for lifting the mandates.
	We were looking for communication to, you know, a lot of people were looking for the mandates to be lifted, you know.
	It's 12.55 and the mandates are not lifted and it's 12.56 and they're lifted.
	I always knew that was never a possibility.
	I know how government works and I understand that it would be a process and that there has to be a lot of things to happen and a plan in place, etc.
	communicated to the public and through the health authorities to put us on a track to lifting the mandates.
	Unfortunately, those conversations never even got started.
	They never got started with?
	With anybody in an official capacity that represented any level of government.
	So you spoke to members of the opposition, MLAs, but not anyone who was like, for example, in Premier Kenney's cabinet.
	No one like that.
	Correct.
	If you were to scroll down further in this, there is a conversation between the mayor and Raj and Sonia that speaks to the mayor asking if she plans to come down to Coots.
	And she mentions, I'm working on it, I have to get...
	Permission from the RCMP, which they would have got, and the boss.
	Now, when we say the boss, I'm pretty sure we all know we're talking about Jason Kenney.
	So that goes back to show you the situation we were dealing with in Alberta at this time.
	We no longer had a voice as Albertans.
	We were dealing with a health authority that had emergency powers and a premier who...
	Was obviously operating his cabinet and his caucus in the aspect of I'm the boss.
	Right, and so the Minister of Transport never went down, so we know that.
	But if we can scroll down to page 11, the bottom of page 11. So this is on February 6th, which is the next day.
	And the mayor of Coutts says to the Minister of Transportation, I'm trying to find out who protesters spoke with and said what.
	Grant said it wasn't him.
	Very clear he has no, he means no mandate, as he clarifies in the next text, that would allow him to do that.
	So it seems to suggest that someone else from the provincial government...
	Other than Grant Hunters, had spoken to the protesters in an official capacity on February 6. So you're saying that did not happen?
	There were a lot of individuals there that would have been involved in politics more than somebody who votes every four years.
	You know, they could have been involved in their CA boards, etc.
	You know, like myself, a local or municipal politician.
	So these individuals coming from different constituencies.
	In the province would have direct connections to their MLAs.
	I'm not aware of all these conversations.
	But you yourself did not have?
	I myself did not have any other conversations other than one phone call with the Transportation Minister, possibly two.
	I can't remember if it was one or two.
	Sorry, so you're saying you did speak on the phone to Rajan Sauni?
	Correct, but that's not in relation to this discussion right here.
	Oh, so what was that in relation to?
	She looked into contact with me, me, possibly others, but I ended up taking the call.
	In relation to the protest?
	In relation to the blockade.
	And what were your conversations about?
	The conversations were as to what it was and what could be done, etc.
	It was, like I said, it was not in any official capacity.
	Obviously, as transportation minister, she had the ability to do that, but I had looked for a meeting with officials.
	Through the minister?
	Through the minister, and when I say I, you know, we as protesters.
	But she reached out to you?
	I believe it was shared that she was looking to get in contact with myself, and we connected.
	Okay.
	And I don't know who relayed that.
	Message to me.
	I might have been through the mayor of Farbercloud, right?
	Once it became, CBC made the connection that I was a local municipal councillor.
	Obviously, that was something in and of itself.
	But very quickly, they were looking to me as that individual to connect with.
	Okay, so you said you spoke to her on the phone on about two occasions.
	Do you recall the dates of those?
	I believe it was only one.
	I'm trying to think which day it was.
	It would have been either the first or the second day we were in the saloon, and I believe we got to saloon on the 1st, so it would have been either the 1st or the 2nd of February.
	And did you ever convey to her that you wanted the provincial mandates lifted in order for the protesters to then go home?
	I believe that message would have been conveyed, but that was obviously a very, that was a pretty obvious message.
	In general, that was why we were there, yeah.
	So you conveyed that message.
	What was her response?
	Well, she didn't have the ability to speak to that, right?
	That still was a PIC or an EMCC committee meeting.
	Did she say that she would speak to Premier Kenney in an unofficial capacity, through unofficial channels, or anything like that?
	I don't remember the details of the conversation.
	I do remember it being more of an introduction call.
	Obviously, introduction, I don't believe there was follow-up calls.
	Sorry, you said there were follow-up calls.
	No, I don't believe there were.
	It just spoke to who she was, who I was, details of the blockade, and the message we were looking to share with the province.
	Demands, all of that.
	I wouldn't say demands, just frustrations in general and how can we move forward.
	That never went anywhere.
	Like I said, I might have had a follow-up conversation, but it would have never went anywhere.
	You say that it never went anywhere, but Premier Kenney did make an announcement on February 8th that the provincial government was announcing a plan for gradual easing of the pandemic-related public health measures.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	And based on our response to his message, it was not the message we were looking for.
	And what was his message and what was the message you were looking for?
	The message that Kenny gave was it was a phased approach with a lot of maybes and there was no surety of anything in that message.
	It spoke to a lot of different aspects and there was a lot of different methods to back out of that phased approach but it really it was something because they had to address You know, there was pressure.
	Even though we weren't communicating, there was pressure.
	COOTS did apply pressure to the provincial government.
	Right.
	And you said earlier that, you know, you understand that there's a process that has to, you know, governmental process for public health measures like these to be lifted and that it would maybe take some time.
	So in your view, was it realistic for Premier Kenney to announce on February 8th, for example, that all mandates would be lifted the next day?
	Was that a realistic objective?
	That's not a realistic objective, but that's on one side, and then there was his response, which was completely on the other side.
	So somewhere in the middle, there was the ability, and this was not just exclusively Coutts.
	This was, you know, the evidence is submitted to the slow rolls in Edmonton, to the protests of 5,000 to 10,000 in Calgary, the inconveniences on highways all over the province.
	Obviously the focus is on Coutts, Ottawa, Emerson, Ambassador, Sarnia, etc.
	But Albertans were frustrated and they were making it very aware to their government that they wanted to see change.
	So we were willing to have those discussions and to work on a realistic plan.
	Like, you know, I can't speak for everybody, but we wanted to, you know, being involved in government for...
	Five, going on six years.
	The message we had was, let's work together to do what Albertans want.
	Unfortunately, somewhere along the line, that message never got delivered or the message was delivered.
	Nothing ever came of it.
	In my mind, that's worse, obviously.
	So it's fair to say that you were looking for a stronger commitment from Jason Kenney, and you, Premier Kenney, apologies, and you didn't get one, is that right?
	Correct.
	Okay, and we're almost out of time here, so I'm just going to ask you some quick questions about the events of February 13th and 14th.
	So I understand that an RCMP tactical unit came in.
	On February 13th, and there were also some arrests on that day in relation to guns and ammunition that were seized at a house in Kutz.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	And they arrested many people in relation to this.
	Did you know any of the individuals who were arrested for mischief and possession of a weapon?
	I know them in the capacity as attendees of the protests.
	You did not know them before?
	No.
	And what about the individuals that were arrested for conspiracy to commit murder?
	The same.
	I met them at Coutts.
	And would you say that you spoke to them every day?
	How well did you know these individuals?
	One of the individuals, he would have been up early every day.
	And when I walked in, he was the biggest, friendliest giant.
	And are you talking about Chris Lysak?
	Correct.
	So did you know that Chris Lysak was in a group called or was a fan of a group called Diagalon?
	No.
	Had you ever heard of that group before?
	No.
	So you're not a fan or a follower of Diagalon?
	No.
	Did you ever speak to Jeremy McKenzie, who's one of the founders of Diagalon?
	No.
	And did you know that there were firearms amongst the protesters?
	No.
	Had you ever heard of this plot to shoot RCMP officers that they're being alleged to have, I guess, planned?
	No.
	Were your bank accounts frozen when the...
	Emergencies Act was invoked.
	No.
	But I understand that you were recently arrested.
	No, I've never been arrested since Coutts or during and since Coutts.
	I was summoned to come in and have my charges read off to me and a promise to appear.
	So you have been charged, though?
	I've been charged, but I've never been arrested.
	Right.
	And that's for a mischief?
	Mischief, yeah.
	So that was in relation to the Coutts protests, but it was not...
	It was recent, and so it wasn't like an Emergency Act measure.
	No.
	Okay, and I just have about one minute left.
	So I'll just ask you to tell the Commissioner quickly what happened on the morning of February 15th.
	So how did the protests end after the arrest that we just discussed were finished?
	So the decision was made on the morning of the 14th to leave.
	I had contact with media and I received a phone call from a reporter.
	She touched base with me daily and she called me to the events.
	She called me in regards to the events of the night of the 13th and the arrests, etc.
	So we were talking about what had happened and the...
	The fairly heavy-handed approach the RCMP initially took and how that was de-escalated, etc.
	And the question came in, so what about the guns?
	And I had responded and said, what guns?
	Ten minutes later, I knew what guns we were talking about.
	For me, it became very clear that this was no longer, that every objective we were looking to achieve was no longer possible and that our message had been lost.
	And to distance ourselves from any...
	And this has to be determined yet, right?
	These charges have not gone to court for these individuals charged with conspiracy to commit or any related gun charges.
	So I'm not going to speak to that.
	But to distance ourselves from that, even the perception at that time, and anything to do with that, we made the decision to leave.
	And I remember calling that meeting and having that discussion.
	And obviously, it was unfortunate.
	It was not us.
	It was obviously individuals who were among us that had different...
	And like I said, this is to be proven.
	I can't speak to that, but alleged to have different views than us.
	And I remember having that discussion and...
	There was pushback initially, and I had said, I'm leaving, and a majority of the individuals will leave with me, but I would like to leave together.
	And I remember I had said, Google coots.
	I was keeping an eye on mainstream media, etc.
	I was aware of Ottawa and such, but I wasn't aware of everything.
	But I remember saying, Google coots.
	And any of the messages, any of the videos, any of the positive Positivity around what we were doing, in my view, was lost.
	It was guns, guns, guns.
	And to not be associated with that or even that viewpoint, we arranged to leave the agreed upon, I think, by the 12th of noon.
	Or sorry, noon on the 12th.
	No, noon on the 14th.
	No, the 15th is when?
	No.
	We had asked that we would clear the blockade immediately, but to leave as if we were never there, we had to arrange, you know, we had mountains of firewood, for example.
	We had food.
	We had, you know, the food, something to write home about, but the food and just to make sure everything was cleaned up properly, we had negotiated that we would leave at 9 o 'clock on the 15th, but the RCMP can attest that before noon or around noon on the 14th, the highway was no longer impeded.
	Okay, and the timing of that is important, so I thank you for clarifying that.
	So noon on the 14th, you communicated to the RCMP, you agreed to leave.
	Those discussions happened in the morning and by noon we had...
	But you told them, listen, we need some more time to clean everything up and to leave as a group and we'll leave by tomorrow morning.
	Right.
	So we had gone to the RCMP after we had talked to the DOJ, like Department of Justice.
	We had requested a Zoom with them.
	So we had the discussion and then we had gone to the protest because it was always, it was never my decision or it was always a group decision.
	We were leaving or we were going or we're staying.
	And I do remember having to address the group with that.
	And based on the situation and the information flowing around, it was pretty, you know, I didn't have to tell anybody to be quiet when I started to address the crowd.
	And there was some opposition.
	You know, we still had individuals coming in that were full of fight.
	You know, like they wanted to be part of this and they had showed up.
	15 minutes ago.
	And we were 18 days.
	We were pretty battered.
	So it was also a way to end this.
	There was no plan.
	So there was never a plan to end this.
	And this was, for us, a strategic retreat, victory, whatever you want to call it.
	It is what it is.
	But we negotiated by noon.
	We had talked to the RSMP.
	We'd like to leave.
	The supper's cooking.
	We're going to invite people over.
	Legally, one more time to do what we did.
	The tractor will be off the highway immediately, and we will start wheel commands cleanup efforts.
	Initially, the RCMPs, they phoned it, and their response was very heavy.
	They said, "You need to leave immediately, and we want you gone in an hour." And I remember thinking, "This is just crazy," and I just...
	I walked away, essentially.
	And they went back in their vehicles, and five minutes later, they came back and said, "Okay, nine o 'clock, tractor's last." You know, it was just last little bit of a...
	You know, power struggle, whatever it was.
	I thought, whatever, we'll do tractors last and it didn't matter to me.
	It didn't matter to us.
	But the decision to leave was made before noon on the 14th.
	And I believe at 9:45 on the 15th, we were leaving.
	Thank you.
	So those are all my questions.
	Is there anything that you'd like to tell the commissioner that we haven't covered together?
	Well, we've covered a lot.
	I just want to speak to what Coutts was.
	It was a gathering of truckers, mainly farmers.
	Eventually farmers bolstered the ranks.
	But it was a group of...
	And the perception around Coutts, unfortunately, due to the discovery of the guns and such, has tainted what Coutts was.
	And for me, what's important is that we were there to demand that our representatives communicate with us like they are obligated to do and like what had not been happening.
	And there's lots of different events during those days that I almost think it was like a chess game between the RCMP and the protesters.
	But unfortunately...
	We were never able to enter in official communication with the government, but looking back at the political state of affairs in Alberta, it might have been better for the Kennedy government to actually have done that.
	And because at the end of the day, we're Albertans and we're Canadians.
	And the COVID restrictions and the mandates, they messed with our lives.
	Like, we see the inconsistencies.
	Of the experts.
	And I don't necessarily blame them.
	The information provided was what they went off, and that information is at times, is now no longer factual either.
	Things, you know, the ball kept on getting pushed further down the road.
	Two weeks to flatten the curve.
	Look at where we are now.
	And I'm not going to speak to COVID, and I'm no expert on it, but even the experts got it wrong.
	And for public trust to be regained, for the trust of Albertans to be regained, there has to be accountability.
	So, thank you.
	Thank you for your time and for answering my questions.
	I'm going to pass it over to my friends who will have questions for you now.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Okay, the first up is the Government of Alberta, please.
	Good afternoon.
	For the record, my name is Stephanie Bowes.
	I'm appearing today on behalf of the Government of Alberta.
	Most of my questions have already been answered, but I would like to cover off a few areas with you today.
	You've talked a little bit about your role as an unofficial spokesperson for the protesters at Coots.
	And were there any other unofficial spokespeople at the same time that you were acting in that role?
	There was individuals.
	The media, in the beginning, once there became, once there was some organization, you know, the event was organic, but once there was some organization established in regards to food and logistics and things like that, right?
	200 and some people in a place, you've got to establish some kind of structure.
	Once that was established and once it became more or less once I got pushed into the role of dealing with the media, I dealt with the media and there was certain media that had been chasing me around or chasing individuals around looking for some kind of comments.
	I remember one particular reporter who had finally, in frustration, said, How can we tell the world what's going on here if you won't talk to us?
	And I won't speak to the organization, but obviously my view on that organization was why we were in that situation.
	And I had turned around and responded and says, okay, you're going to get an interview and I'll be watching tonight that will determine whether you get a number one tomorrow.
	And I actually was able to say that my views on the organization may not have changed, but I had a very, very positive relationship with this reporter and that has...
	That has since then given me the discretion with other reporters to hear them out.
	But we had advised protesters to not speak to the media and that we're trying to orchestrate a general communication, a general direction in regards to what came from COOTS.
	But individuals may have, on their own accord, done interviews and stuff, and I've seen those.
	Like I said, it's not like the RCMP where there was such structure that you didn't move left or right unless you were told to.
	We were there for freedom, so it wasn't for us to go and order people around and tell them not to do this or not to do that.
	And I understand from your anticipated statement that you would have described the protest at Milk River as being somewhat less organized than the protest at Coots.
	Is that fair to say?
	Correct.
	Yeah, so the RCMP had their initial blockade, which was on January 1st, the protesters went around it.
	So they reinforced it to the point where there was no longer any way to go through that other than going through the barricade, which would have resulted in violence, which was never an intention.
	Due to the numbers, which fluctuated on the weekends, and the first and the second weekend being obviously quite phenomenal due to the influx of people.
	Thousands, I believe we had over 10,000 on the Saturday.
	Saturday, I'm going to say the 6th, I believe.
	But people had to take care of themselves.
	You know, sleeping accommodations, food, etc.
	There was individuals at the front that maintained to make sure we didn't have anybody come in and cause problems, right?
	We were wary of people looking to come in and make us look, you know, start something and that it would be on us, right?
	So we were aware of that and just there was fires there.
	So we made sure that the fires were contained and there was a general, there's a few individuals at...
	The Milk River protest that kept an eye on things and if things you know went a certain way they would coordinate with the RCMP to make sure that was either resolved or de-escalated.
	But the biggest thing was to make sure that we didn't have and I remember the thought and I'm not gonna you know that Antifa could show up and cause problems and obviously for myself you know being in in the public eye I had We had fairly, you know, we had threats to myself and to my family.
	And I remember when I would go down to Milk River multiple times a day, or as needed, and they came to a point where I wasn't alone.
	I would be accompanied by an individual or two just for my, to do the worries of the protestors about my well-being.
	So it was less organized, but, you know, I wouldn't, they were, there was...
	A lot of structure there, too, at the front.
	But on the weekends, it was you took care of yourself.
	We call them the weekend warriors.
	They showed up in droves.
	It was the place to be in Alberta at the time.
	And so that's one of my other questions, was the composition of the protests would change depending on what day of the week it was and who was coming to the protest site, correct?
	Correct, yeah.
	Now, in your statement of anticipated evidence, and you've spoken about this a little bit today, you say that if the government of Alberta had agreed to negotiate with spokespersons, the Coutts protest could have been dispersed.
	And I'll take it that you still believe that at this point in time, correct?
	Absolutely.
	And just to be clear, do you mean just the protest at Coutts, or are you including the protest that was occurring at Checkpoint 10?
	Milk River.
	Well, you know the events, right?
	When we left, they left.
	So they were there for us.
	When we were gone, their goal was no longer achievable.
	You acknowledged, though, that you didn't have control over any particular group of people at the protest, correct?
	There was less control over Milk River, but there were still individuals who definitely kept an eye on the situation.
	And it was mainly the weekends that were...
	Just the most concerning in regards to public safety.
	And that was something I worked...
	I spent hours working with the RCMP.
	I spent every day working with the RCMP to maintain public safety.
	That was something neither of us wanted, that somebody got hurt by accident.
	There were people who were at these protests that were protesting provincial health restrictions, correct?
	Correct.
	And there were certainly people there that were protesting any federal health restrictions, correct?
	I believe everybody who was there was protesting provincial restrictions, and some may also have been protesting federal restrictions.
	And I'll ask the clerk, if you could please pull up document pb.can.401333.
	Sorry, that's 1333.
	And I'll ask that you just scroll down to the second page to an email from Lisa Lorenzel-Peace on January 30th, 2022.
	to.
	I think you'll have to scroll a little bit farther.
	There it is there.
	And you'll see CBSA Intelligence provided the following, and a couple of points down there, rumors of another 800 protesters coming with heavy equipment because they want Trudeau there.
	Do you agree that there were people there who were looking to address Prime Minister, sorry, yes, Prime Minister Trudeau with this protest?
	I could see that being something individuals wanted.
	Trudeau is not popular in Alberta.
	And did you see any, and part of my language here, the fuck Trudeau signs at the protest?
	There would have been those signs at the protest, the amount.
	No, I'm not aware of that.
	Okay.
	Now, I understand that you spoke to Western Standard News during the protest.
	Is that correct?
	Correct.
	And on February 3rd, you told Western Standard News that the protesters involved in the Clutes blockade would depart at 7 a.m. on Friday, February 4th for a slow-rule convoy to Edmonton to meet with Premier Kenney.
	Is that correct?
	Coffee with Kenney?
	Yes.
	Correct.
	And that wasn't an agreement you had at that time with Premier Kenney.
	The plan was to go to Edmonton to try to meet with him.
	Is that correct?
	That would have been an ultimate success if we would have actually been able to meet with him.
	It was a headline.
	There was a bit of sarcasm in that headline that we're going to Edmonton, which was not something I agreed with.
	Actually, I agreed with going to Edmonton.
	I disagreed with leaving Coutts.
	But the article spoke to those events, and there were individuals that did, and I believe from all corners of the province they came and caused logistical challenges in the downtown and on the Anthony End Day.
	Did you tell the RCMP the same thing, that the Coutts protesters would be leaving and slow rolling to Edmonton?
	No.
	Was there...
	Pardon, go ahead.
	This media publication...
	It came out before I went and talked to the protesters as a whole.
	Like I said, the decision to leave or to stay was a group decision.
	And unfortunately, this article, we did have a plan through pressures that were applied on us by...
	Individuals, businesses, Gattlemen's Association and their representatives to leave COOTS.
	And I had, sorry, once that decision was made as a side group, a smaller group involving these representatives, etc., the Decision went to the crowd.
	The crowd, unanimously, I remember that moment, unanimously and with a lot of emotion was like, no.
	And I remember thinking, this is it.
	But unfortunately, things were able to be resolved very shortly and those who wanted to go to Edmonton were free to go.
	People were free to leave at any time.
	But we...
	We had decided that leaving Coutts was not the objective.
	That was the objective of those representatives in the Cattlemen's Association because we were an inconvenience to them and they had worked their way and influenced individuals who had reputation and who were attending this protest who had then called a meeting which I was not in initially until I got the phone call because I was coordinating things in Milk River with the RCMP and I remember getting the phone call and coming south.
	Coming back to Coots, very frustrated because this had happened once before where we were almost sabotaged in my view of, you know, leaving Coots by, you know, individuals who had no bearing in Coots, but who came in and they were this and they were that.
	But it came to a decision eventually, regardless of my views.
	Because, like I said, this wasn't my thing.
	It wasn't about me.
	I was playing a role as spokesman and I had to deliver that message to the crowd and it was not well received and we did not leave for Edmonton.
	Okay, so to understand or paraphrase your evidence, there was a group that made a decision that this would happen, that the protesters would leave to go to Edmonton.
	You spoke to Western Standard News and told them the same thing, and then later you spoke to the group of protesters on a larger basis, and the decision was, no, we're not going to go to Edmonton.
	Is that correct?
	Correct.
	So my view of a decision like that was something that had to be...
	So we decided to bring it back to the crowd, that it even made its way there.
	The majority of the individuals in that initial discussion had decided it was happening regardless of the crowd, which was...
	Naive of them because the crowd were the protesters and it was their trucks and their equipment, etc.
	And we had prepped a statement.
	So eventually I said, "Okay, well, then this is what we're doing." But I first have to discuss it with the protesters, with the group.
	And as I went to do that, because it was in another building, the press release was released.
	Prior to speaking to the group.
	So that resulted in a hectic hour or two for RCMP, for us, for everybody.
	But it was definitely, it was confusing because the statement read that we were leaving and had my name all over it.
	And I remember hearing the crowd and somebody come up to me and showed me the picture.
	And I was like, really?
	Who released this?
	I was just shocked that this individual had...
	Or these individuals had released it.
	And I think that was also part of their tactic to pressure that now it was known to the public that we were leaving.
	But we never did.
	Now I'd like to talk to you about the announcement by the Government of Alberta on February 8th.
	And I'll ask the clerk to please go to document ALB401768.
	And you've talked a little bit about this with my friend already.
	I'll just scroll down to the bottom of page two.
	And we'll see here, starting at the word beginning, beginning Feb 8 at 11:59 p.m., Alberta will move to step one, which includes the removal of the restrictions exemption program.
	And then there's other some other liftings of Restrictions within that paragraph.
	And then the plan goes on to further describe various times that various COVID-19 health restrictions will be removed.
	Now, you talked about how the government didn't move fast enough for you in terms of lifting restrictions.
	This was an announcement on February 8th that later that night restrictions would be lifted.
	And if we go to Alberta's institutional report, which is document ALB.IR701.
	To paragraph 19 on page 7 of this report.
	We see on February 8th, Alberta announced a plan for gradual easing of pandemic-related public health orders.
	Later that day, protesters resumed a complete blockade at the COOTS POE, which is Port of Entry.
	You acknowledge that despite Alberta's announcement about easing restrictions, the blockade resumed that day, correct?
	Correct.
	And we're still looking at paragraph 19. I'd also like to talk about the legal protest site that was made available by Alberta.
	Were you aware of the alternate protest site that was being provided?
	Yes, I viewed the property.
	Did you encourage protesters to use the alternate protest site instead of blocking the highway?
	That was...
	The biggest discussion I had with the RCMP that week, the longest, that happened inside the sheriff's buses at the Milk River protest, and I think the part that made it very unappealing was the fact that they had government Wi-Fi there.
	So you refused the protest site on the basis of government Wi-Fi?
	I believe that was the part that was completely ridiculous in regards to we got government Wi-Fi there.
	The biggest issue was the intent was to be on the highway.
	This was not Coutts.
	This was 100% in relation to the Milk River blockade.
	You're aware of that, correct?
	I understand what you're saying.
	I think that was just sloppy language on my part.
	Okay.
	But in any event, the protesters didn't shift over to protesting at that site, correct?
	No, it was never communicated to the protesters.
	I remember sitting in the bus with both groups of CCMGs and I think even the officer in charge of the Milk River protests and I questioned them as to how I was supposed to convince the protesters.
	To move off the highway into this field, it just wasn't realistic.
	Like, there was no way that was going to happen.
	You didn't believe you could convince them to make that change?
	Correct.
	Okay, thank you.
	Those are all my questions today.
	Okay, thank you.
	Next, call on the Government of Canada.
	Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Eugenbos.
	For the record, my name is Ryan Atkins.
	I'm part of the legal team for the Government of Canada.
	We heard that you're a Town Counselor for the Town of Fort McLeod in Southern Alberta?
	Correct.
	And on March 28, 2022, you were given a letter of reprimand from the Mayor of Fort McLeod, is that right?
	Correct.
	And that's in relation to the events and your participation in the convoy at Coutts?
	Correct.
	We also heard about the criminal charges that were laid against you.
	Are those charges still outstanding?
	Yes.
	Now, we've heard that there are two distinct protest sites.
	There was the one in Coutts itself near the way station and another one just south of Milk River by the checkpoint.
	Yes.
	And I just want to understand where you were at various points of time.
	I think you said that you met...
	Emily Motz at Milk River.
	Did you mean the protest site or the town?
	Glenn Motz.
	We met in front of the sheriff buses at the Milk River blockade.
	Okay.
	Was that on the southern side of the police barricade or did you actually traverse the police barricade?
	The north side.
	He was not allowed as an individual or participating, I would say.
	He was there to come talk to me, but he was not allowed on the other side of those buses.
	And that was on Saturday the 5th?
	I believe that was on Saturday, yeah.
	It was a pretty crazy place.
	Was that the same weekend that you were able to get out of the protest site for a family weekend?
	No, that was the second weekend.
	Okay, so on two different weekends you were able to get out?
	No, so in regards to my ability to traverse, I guess with the perk of being the media spokesperson allowed me to come and go as I needed to.
	So the police were allowing you to go back and forth.
	Sorry, you have to articulate.
	Yes, sorry.
	And I think you said that you went down to Milk River, that is the protest site, a couple times a day?
	Correct.
	And you also spent time at the saloon in Coutts?
	Yes.
	You mentioned that you brought your pickup truck to the protest and that initially it was parked in the parking lot by the saloon.
	Was that your evidence?
	My truck has probably been parked in 100 different locations in Milk River and in Coutts.
	And during the period of time that we're talking about from January 29th to February 15th, it didn't remain in that parking lot?
	No.
	Was it ever parked on the highway?
	Yes.
	And that's including during the time when all lanes of the highway were blocked, correct?
	Correct.
	Now, at the beginning of the blockade on January 29th, the RCMP asked that the protesters not block all lanes of the highway.
	Were you aware of that?
	I didn't hear that communication, but I was aware and I could understand that request.
	And the reason you understand that request is because blocking all lanes could create a dangerous situation for residents and coos?
	Correct.
	Because blocking all lanes would restrict or impede emergency response vehicles, for example.
	That would be perceived.
	We actually did have emergency response and the lanes were cleared enough to allow that to proceed.
	Eventually, right?
	At that specific time when that emergency vehicle showed up.
	Okay.
	And you indicated that it wasn't your intention to completely block the highway, you personally?
	Correct.
	And in fact, I believe on January 31st, you made a statement to the media saying that we had to shift gears because we were hurting people who were supporting us, correct?
	January the 31st.
	Can you provide some more context in regards to that comment?
	So you're reported on January 31st as saying that we want to stop hurting those who are supporting us.
	You don't recall making that statement?
	I believe it.
	Yes.
	I'm just asking the witness if he doesn't recall making that statement.
	He doesn't recall.
	I do recall making that statement.
	The thought process behind that statement is this was a border blockade to southern Alberta.
	I live in southern Alberta.
	It didn't affect Edmonton as much as it would southern Alberta.
	It didn't affect Ottawa as much as it affected southern Alberta.
	So we were driven as protesters, as residents of Alberta, to a place where we were willing to sacrifice our own livelihoods and more.
	For the sake of getting in contact with our governing body.
	You'd agree with me that not all of the people upon whom that sacrifice was being imposed supported what you were doing, correct?
	Correct.
	I'd like to take you to a video, if I can.
	And the number is PB.CAN.401792.
	and if we could just queue it up to five minutes 18 seconds please A slice of the world's longest undefended border at a standstill for days.
	Cross-border traffic shut down by about 100 trucks on the Canadian side.
	Trucks and their drivers have been stuck here near Cootes since Saturday.
	Today, RCMP started guiding some away from the border through back roads.
	I'm cold.
	I want to go home.
	This driver was headed north with a load of potatoes when he ran into the blockade, stranded for 45 hours before finally moving on, unimpressed with the delay or the protesters who caused it.
	I'm not representing me.
	I'm not representing any truckers that I know.
	This is something I don't agree with at all.
	Like, this is health and safety.
	And you can stop it right there.
	You're aware that the convoy you were participating in was having that effect on truckers?
	We were aware that that was the effect on some truckers, correct?
	And it's a foreseeable consequence of blocking that highway, correct?
	It was an unintended consequence, and after 45 hours, those truckers were on their way.
	Unintended, maybe, but foreseeable, yes?
	No.
	No, being as organic as it was, it was a direct unintended.
	Sorry, it's your evidence that completely blocking a highway, all lanes, wouldn't have consequences for truckers who use that highway?
	It was specifically the truckers that were stuck in the blockade.
	Truckers that were backed up on either side of the border had the ability to turn around and take different borders.
	We did not...
	It was an inconvenience to Coutts, obviously, being the main port, but Del Bonito had an increase of 917%.
	And commercial traffic flow during that time.
	We did not block all borders.
	I want to talk to you a little bit about what you call an inconvenience.
	On January 31st, and I can take you to it if you like, the Alberta Minister of Transport tweeted that there were 50 to 100 truckers stranded on the US side since Saturday, so for several days.
	Some hadn't eaten and some had medical issues.
	Were you aware of that tweet?
	No.
	Were you aware that some truckers were facing those issues?
	I was aware there was truckers on the American side, but these truckers were hoping for a speedy resolution, which could have been achievable by the Alberta Transportation Minister, Department and the government in general.
	Unfortunately, that never happened and these truckers were stranded longer and eventually they did turn around and take other ports of entry.
	But that was a decision.
	They were not forced to stay there of their own accord.
	I'll leave that there.
	You also agree with me, I think, that Highway 4 is an important corridor for the people of Cootes?
	Correct.
	And they use it to access essential services in Milk River?
	Correct.
	But if we could just press play on the video where we left off at six minutes, two seconds.
	That's the order of running.
	Donna, I can tell you that the situation here looks a lot different than it did earlier today.
	Protesters have moved their vehicles to the shoulders, opening up a lane of traffic in both directions, though RCMP say that travel is still not recommended quite yet.
	Still, it is a very hopeful sign here after a very tense few days.
	This is what we're trying to get through.
	Oh my God!
	Cell phone video captures the moment of impact.
	Coots resident Tara Schamber had just left town to get groceries when she was hit.
	It was terrifying.
	Absolutely terrifying.
	The crash happened Tuesday afternoon as RCMP moved in to try and dismantle the illegal blockade at the Coots border crossing.
	Police warned protesters that if they did not leave peacefully, arrests would follow.
	A few did leave, but then...
	We had...
	A bunch of vehicles and farm machinery that were to the north at a roadblock that was set up on Highway 4 to the north.
	Those vehicles breached the roadblock and they did that by driving at quite high speeds.
	It was one of those vehicles that hit Tara Chambers' car.
	Police say her husband was then assaulted before the driver left the scene.
	All we were doing was going to go get groceries.
	And you're trying to say that this is a peaceful protest?
	It's not very peaceful to me.
	So watching that video, you would agree with me, I take it, that the convoy posed a significant risk for the physical safety of people in Coutts?
	This interaction was the only time that there was vehicles between the Milk River blockade and the Coutts blockade, and we addressed that earlier in regards to them circumventing the...
	The initial RCMP blockade on February the 1st.
	As a result of that, both lanes, and I wasn't there, but as a result of that, both lanes were going southbound, as the video stated.
	The individual that was heading northbound got into a motor vehicle accident with an individual that was heading southbound.
	The individual heading southbound was a resident of Coutts.
	It was actually a previous...
	I think they were known to each other.
	I believe there was an altercation at the time, which was very unfortunate.
	Upon hearing this and the damages to the vehicle, etc., and the inconvenience, as protesters, we leased them a vehicle while their vehicle was repaired, and we paid for all the damages to that vehicle.
	But my question was, you agree with me that what we just saw in that video was an unsafe situation?
	Absolutely, that was an unsafe situation.
	Can we tee up a document pb.can.401803 and just bring it to 3 minutes 18 seconds and just kind of freeze frame there, please?
	Thank you.
	So I want to talk about the RCMP enforcement action in the early morning hours of February 14th.
	And I take it that this is a photo that you've actually seen before, correct?
	I've seen this photo before, yeah.
	You were asked about this photo in a news interview that you gave.
	Possibly.
	You don't recall?
	I don't recall.
	If you can show me the interview, I would recall.
	I've given many interviews.
	But you have seen this photo before?
	Yes.
	And you'll agree with me that it shows a large quantity of guns, body armor, ammunition, including high-capacity magazines.
	Legal high-capacity magazines, if that's what you're referring to.
	But high-capacity magazines.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	And I don't need to take you to it, but I believe you may have indicated that you thought there were more guns seized at Coutts than are depicted in this photo.
	Do you recall saying that?
	No, I don't recall that.
	Okay, that's fine.
	But were you aware that there were weapons at Coutts before the seizure of this cache of weapons?
	No.
	Okay.
	You told the media that the decision to leave was made After the arrests on the 14th, correct?
	Correct.
	And I believe you also said that it was made after the infiltration of extreme elements in the protest group?
	Based on the information I was presented at the time, that was my statement regarding that.
	And the information that you were presented at the time involved the presence of Diagalon symbols or supporters?
	Correct.
	And I know you didn't know about Diagalon before, but you learned about it at that time.
	I learned about it after based on...
	I've never in person seen this based on the information presented to me.
	And you didn't want to stay after that because you didn't want to be associated with extremists?
	Correct.
	Were you at the smuggler's saloon on February 3rd when Pastor Art Pawlowski gave a speech?
	He walked in and I walked out.
	Okay, so you didn't stay for his speech?
	It wasn't a direct...
	I was addressing...
	I was speaking to the crowd in regards to that decision by those individuals that had come in to leave for Edmonton, Coffee with Kenny.
	That happened just before Pastor Arthur Pawlowski came in.
	And he might have actually been in the audience while I was explaining the motive, etc., etc.
	But the unanimous...
	And this has never been...
	Pastor Arthur has charges in regards to this, but his charges that he incited us to stay because Coffee with Kenny was seen as us leaving.
	Before Pastor Arthur reached the podium or even reached the building, I'm not sure of the events, the...
	Protesters had decided we were staying.
	The decision to stay had nothing to do with Pastor Arthur.
	That was my question.
	My question was whether you heard the speech.
	No, I did not hear the speech.
	Okay.
	You didn't hear about it on social media?
	No.
	I might have listened to it after the actual events or after his arrest, just as to what actually happened.
	But before the convoy ended?
	I don't believe I did.
	I don't believe I did.
	And so you didn't hear anything about the substance of the speech while you were at Coots?
	I would have heard from individuals.
	In the protest who would come and talk to me after as to details of the speech or what it was about in general.
	And upon hearing the details of the speech, you didn't decide to leave at that time?
	What specific details?
	But no, no, we didn't leave as to Arthur's speech.
	Arthur's speech had no relevance on us staying or going.
	Thank you.
	Those are my questions.
	Okay, next.
	Are the convoy organizers?
	Good evening, rather, Mr. Commissioner.
	Bathsheba Vandenberg, Council for Freedom Corps and Protesters.
	We have no questions for Mr. van Haugenbos.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Next is the Council for former Chief Slowly.
	Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
	We have no questions for this witness.
	Okay.
	So, Mr. Raymond.
	Any questions to follow up?
	Mr Van Huygenbos, Council for Canada, my friend, she showed you a clip where a vehicle was struck.
	Now, that wasn't the only accident in Coutts, correct?
	The RCMP were involved...
	In an accident because they ignored a stop sign?
	Correct.
	And as a consequence of that accident, do you know if anybody was arrested for this alleged assault?
	No.
	In your opinion, and the political decisions that were made with response to the pandemic and the COVID virus, so the measures and responses, Were they proportional or unproportionate to the virus?
	The mandates and emergency measures?
	Yes.
	They were not proportional to the response.
	And so you would agree with me that the response and the measures trampled various protected rights?
	Correct.
	They caused economic damage?
	Absolutely.
	There were social, health, and psychological...
	Implications and issues?
	still are Was there an injunction, as far as you are aware of, was there an injunction sought or granted with respect to the coups protest?
	I was never aware of that.
	And then during the coups protest, Was there any violence?
	No.
	Was it a peaceful protest?
	Absolutely.
	Were there families there?
	Yes.
	Did you observe any kids playing road hockey?
	Sure did.
	So one could state that it was a very Canadian protest.
	It was, yeah.
	Now, with respect to this alleged security team, to the best of your knowledge, was there an official security team?
	There was never any details or discussions around security.
	There was never any individuals who had the role of security other than, you know, my security because of the threats made against me while I was at the Milk River blockade, just as I would say in an official capacity, personal security detail.
	There was equipment and motor vehicles, trucks and...
	Trailers, etc.
	parked on the highway.
	But the RCMP and anybody who wanted to had the ability to mingle with us, communicate with us, access us anywhere, use our facilities, dine with us, eat meals with us.
	There was no security needed.
	What threats against your family were made?
	I wore, you know, the temperatures were extreme.
	I wore a hat and coats that had my company logo on it.
	And we have a website where requests for proposals can be submitted by individuals.
	And that was used by individuals anonymously to put in a fake number, fake name, fake email, and then, you know, have at her based on their views of something I was participating in.
	But what really topped it all was a phone call that came in at the end of the first week to the admin, and it took her a little bit to just connect the dots, but they rattled off my address and said, "We're coming for your family." So I received this message probably half hour later at 5:30 on Friday.
	And it took me a bit to process it.
	That's never happened before in my life.
	That's not something I've ever had to deal with.
	I had already been dealing with some pretty nasty emails, etc., which I just, you know, I get it.
	People had different views on different things.
	But this was, you know, my address, my family.
	So I remember phoning my dad.
	And my father-in-law, and we took it seriously.
	That was the right response.
	And my family, from that day on, did not stay at our primary residence until the blockade was concluded.
	Thank you.
	With respect to the timeline, the time between January 29th and February 15th or so, during the protest, we'll call it, There were some arrests on February 13th and then into the early morning of February 14th.
	Were there any other arrests in Coutts or in and around Milk River?
	No, not that I'm aware of.
	I do believe there was somebody who was removed from the protest but not arrested.
	It was just we had requested this individual be removed.
	He was causing a disturbance and we were as a...
	We were very strict on some things and that involved the in coups where we had the ability to do that right where we had the influence where there was no there was no drinking in public there was no you know speeding or any of that we try to maintain a orderly event in those days.
	Mr. Clerk if we could pull up the document pb.nsc.can409207 Great, thank you.
	Mr. Van Heelenbos, right here, it's an email.
	I'm not sure who John Ferguson is, but it's regarding Coutts.
	At one point, it says at approximately 2200 hours, a tractor tried to forcibly push a RCMP police vehicle out of that checkpoint with the assistance of a pickup.
	Is that your recollections of the events?
	No.
	What happened?
	Due to the cold weather and the equipment, if you're familiar with trucks and Equipment in general, the batteries, if they do not run on a regular basis, the batteries will drain.
	So to prevent that sporadically and at different times, we would fire up all the equipment and let the equipment run.
	That occurred the night of...
	So that occurred Sunday night on the 13th.
	And then Chris and Mark...
	Two CCMGs.
	I don't recall their last names.
	They were the second shift, and Greg and Troy were a team, and Chris and Mark were a team.
	They were in front of the saloon, standing around a fire, doing what their role was, you know, community conflict group.
	Like, they were there interacting, and I'm pretty sure they were taking mental notes as to what we were up to, but...
	I think there was a gospel band playing in the saloon and people were mingling and people that couldn't be there on the week were there on a Sunday night.
	It was a very quiet evening.
	The decision or whatever it was, it was a minor thing to fire up all the tractors.
	Things happened on a daily and we tried to coordinate structure.
	Fired up.
	Unfortunately, one of these tractors, one of these individuals decided to go for a little joyride with one of these tractors.
	And this drew the attention of the RCMP.
	And I'm going to say specifically, looking back, specifically the SWAT or Tactical teams that were in place to execute these warrants of that night, which we were not aware of.
	But they were in the vicinity.
	So being dark, they must have been within a couple minute response time just waiting for the time to execute their warrants on the location outside of the protest in connection to the guns.
	This individual in this tractor triggered a response by these tactical teams.
	But prior to this, this tractor, the first vehicle on site was an administrative vehicle.
	It was an unmarked RCMP vehicle with a staff member who works in administration, so who may have had received the training previously to be in the field, but they were short officers.
	Everybody was short officers.
	There was a lot of draw for...
	For the RCMP across the country.
	So they had a lot of individuals that were usually working desk jobs, etc., manning checkpoints.
	So this person must have been in the nearest checkpoint responding to this tractor driving around and what's going on.
	And this tractor ended up...
	I can't speak for the individual driving this tractor, but from what I've seen, this big tractor...
	And if you're not...
	Familiar with tractors, they can be very intimidating all on their own parked.
	Now this tractor was driving around and there was an unintended confrontation in an intersection where you have a little SUV manned by a RCMP officer who was obviously very intimidated by this piece of equipment.
	And it resulted in an altercation that was eventually de-escalated but resulted in this tractor being seized.
	But in what you witnessed, you didn't see any attempt to forcibly push an RCMP vehicle?
	No, there was no attempt.
	If there was an attempt, it would have ended very unsatisfactory for that vehicle.
	The issue with the Premier's announcement on February 8th, you would agree with me that the issue was that it could have been, that the Premier or the government could have gone back on it.
	It wasn't a solid plan.
	It had all kinds of avenues as to exit and do U-turns and come back.
	Correct.
	So if I go back to the documents that were presented to us, the difference between these documents, which are very, very solid and...
	Provide a clear plan as to the phased approach the province was taking.
	We were never responding to this document.
	We were responding to the Premier's speech.
	This document was not available to us at that time.
	The Premier's speech was a speech that in no way even mentioned the situation in Coutts, and we were not looking for recognition, but it nowhere mentioned.
	What it did mention was a lot of maybes, which if we had the speech, we could bring it up.
	So we responded to the Premier's wording, the tone, and everything around his address.
	We did not respond to a document that showed a phased approach.
	This document in and of itself is actually a fairly reasonable document, but that was not what we were responding to.
	I'm out of time, Commissioner?
	You're out of time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
	Okay, I've got two more questions.
	Truckers were labeled heroes for nearly two years.
	And then with a stroke of a...
	Well, because they were deemed to be risking their lives for nearly two years.
	With a stroke of a pen, those that were unvaccinated became essentially persona non grata.
	So the truckers became...
	They weren't allowed essentially to...
	Some of them couldn't...
	Is there a question here?
	Yes, yes.
	Would you agree with the statement that suddenly they...
	Many years they were, I mean, for almost two years, they were labeled heroes and then suddenly they were not allowed to work.
	Correct.
	And that was the frustration.
	They were the heroes of the pandemic.
	The truckers, when the drive-thrus were closed, when they had no ability to use washrooms, when they had no access to restaurants, the truckers were the heroes of the pandemic.
	And then with the stroke of a pen, and obviously there was discussion around that, truckers had to make a decision.
	And my last question is, with respect to the implementation of the Public Emergency Act and the measures taken by the federal government, do you believe that it was because they were embarrassed by the various protests and basically the various protests?
	Absolutely, and not specifically.
	Specifically, Coutts.
	I do believe in regards to, if Coutts were the only protest happening, we would have got the attention, the full attention of the federal government.
	But Ottawa and Ambassador Bridge were the draw.
	Alberta and how that was affecting, how Coutts was affecting Alberta is something the Alberta government was aware of.
	But in the evidence provided, there is an exchange between Bill Blair and Rick McIver.
	And there's six or seven days where there is no response.
	To a request by Rick McIver for assistance by the federal government to removing or assisting in removing the blockade.
	Until the minister texts Rick McIver and essentially says, oh, by the way, we invoked the Emergencies Act, which obviously set off a pretty heated exchange between the two.
	So it goes to show you that for six, seven days, there was...
	There was no communication between the federal and the provincial government, so that obviously put COOTS on a...
	COOTS was of little concern to the federal government as a whole.
	It was a concern.
	Like, they were addressing it, but not on the same level as Ottawa or as the Ambassador Bridge.
	And I can understand that, but the EMA was enacted, in my view, as a political tactic more than an actual enforcement tactic.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, Commissioner.
	Okay, any re-examination?
	Just one quick question, or is this on?
	By way of cleanup, I showed you at the beginning your statement of anticipated evidence that was for the record SAE 703, and I forgot to ask you whether you adopt that statement.
	So, Mr. Van Huyenbos, do you adopt that statement?
	Yes.
	As it was.
	Okay, thank you.
	Those are all my questions.
	Thank you.
	Well, that completes the business for today, so we can adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
	I think tomorrow will be a longer day, so people should come prepared to stay longer than normal.
	So, look forward to seeing you all back.

▲