The Unexplained - Howard Hughes - Edition 407 - Nick Groff

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Aug. 8, 2019 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:06:19

Edition 407 - Nick Groff

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast.
	My name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
	Good to have you there wherever you are.
	Thank you very much for all of your emails.
	Please keep them coming.
	The long hot summer of 2019 burns ever onwards.
	Still humid, even though the temperature's gone down a bit today.
	It is still humid.
	And I think I'm with a lot of people.
	My breathing is being affected by this.
	It seems to be on my chest.
	The air quality, and I'm quite a few miles outside the center of London, but the air quality here, as I'm recording this, I don't think is very good.
	And it's been that way for probably the thick end of a month.
	So if you're affected like this, you have my sympathy because I know where you're coming from on that.
	But I guess we're going to have to get used to all of this.
	Now, this show is going to be slightly different from other shows in that I'm going to feature two items from recent radio shows.
	The simple reason for that is to bring them to my international audience and also to make sure that they are archived here.
	You know that I put very, very few items from the radio show here on the podcast.
	And when I do it, I do it simply to preserve it because the radio shows are broadcast, they're around for a little while, and then they're just lost.
	And if there happens to be a good interview or a good guest on them, then that's just one of those things.
	Those shows disappear forever.
	And a lot of you have said, that's a shame.
	Can you put them on your podcast?
	Now, some people said, when I did put some radio shows on the podcast for the first time, I don't want to hear this.
	I've heard this before.
	So I've got a very delicate balance here that I want to preserve some of this material.
	And as I say, I don't put very much of it on here so that people can hear it.
	But also, I don't want people saying, well, I've heard this before.
	Why are you recycling material?
	But I think in the instances that I will put material on the podcast, you'll understand, I think, why I've done that.
	And I've got a bit of a backlog, including Paul Hellier, the reinvestigation of the Enfield Poltergeist Tapes and Archives, which I think is an interesting one, and a few other bits and pieces that really do need to be put on here.
	And when I can, I'll get round to putting them on here as podcast.
	On this edition, internationally famous paranormal and ghost investigator Nick Groff, formerly of Paranormal Lockdown, a man with some new projects on the go that he will tell you about here.
	Nick Groff always get tremendous response from listeners when he's on.
	So I want you to hear him from not very many days ago as I record this on the radio show.
	So that's Nick Groff first, and then somebody very controversial who I deliberately didn't talk to, even though some of my listeners were asking for him.
	Bart Sebrell, the man who has been consistently a moon landing denier for years and years and years, and he says he's got evidence to back that up.
	Now, I didn't speak to him around the time of the Apollo 50 anniversary because I just didn't think it would be right.
	But I did put him briefly on the radio show a couple of weeks ago, and I thought you might want to hear him.
	Some people have asked for him.
	So we'll include Bart Sabrell at the end of this podcast.
	And you let me know your thoughts about that.
	I do challenge him on some of the points that he makes, and I do also put listener points to Bart Sebrell.
	So, you know, in the interests of completeness, we'll have Bart Sebrell on here too.
	So two great guests, Nick Groff and Bart Sabrell, very controversial man.
	For reasons that you'll know, he is the man who was punched in the face by Buzz Aldrin when he confronted Buzz Aldrin and got a little too close to him, saying a few things that you will see on the YouTube deliverances of this particular incident a few years ago.
	Anyway, he's on the show as well.
	So let's get first of all to Nick Croff, very famous, internationally recognized paranormal and ghost investigator.
	And from my radio show just a few nights ago, here he is.
	He has 600,000 Twitter followers, which most of us would die for.
	But he's got them.
	Nick Croff, nice to talk with you again.
	Nice to talk with you.
	How's everything going?
	It's going fine.
	You know, we're in our new building here, Nick.
	The last time we spoke, I think we were in our old dungeon.
	But now you must come and see it at some point because I know you come to the UK quite often, don't you?
	I was.
	I was in the UK all last year for 10 different locations that I investigated.
	It was an amazing time that I had.
	And some of the locations that we went to were absolutely just energetic with so much history and just so much activity.
	I really enjoyed it.
	Okay, we'll talk about those in a bit because I know you've done various investigations in the UK, including, I think, Bali Rectory, but we'll get to that.
	Talk to me about you and where you're placed now.
	I've had various messages from your various fans who want to know about where you're placed at the moment and what you're going to do going forward.
	So talk to me about you.
	It's been a really interesting ride so far.
	I mean, I was doing permanent lockdown for the last four years, living in different locations for three days straight, and it was very challenging.
	And then finally, it kind of came to a part where it was doing very successful on three different networks out there on one of the UK networks and then over here in the States too.
	Yeah, I think you're on your quest right here.
	Yeah, sometimes politics get in the way and you know paranormal lockdown was great, but now I'm working on something really big.
	I'm really excited about it.
	I've been working on this for about four years, this new thing.
	So everyone's going to hear about it really soon.
	And also I'm working on a ton of new, just different paranormal investigations.
	I have one coming out soon.
	I just went back to Bobby Mackey's Music World in Wilder, Kentucky, in the United States.
	And we will be releasing that soon.
	I'm actually going to release the trailer this week of it.
	And you'll be able to see that on VidiSpace, V-I-D-I dot space.
	So everyone will be able to see my investigation there.
	It was absolutely amazing.
	That's a place that you've been to before.
	I saw a video at Bobby Mackey's, and you can tell me the full story of that, where you and somebody else, I think it may have been for paranormal lockdown, but whatever it was, you actually went to the basement of that place and it was seriously haunted.
	But talk to me about Bobby Mackeys.
	Yeah, Bobby Mackey's is an amazing location.
	It intrigues me.
	Every time I go back, there's something new that I discover that just I have to learn more.
	I don't know what it is about that location, but it just has some sort of energy that just keeps building over a decade of me just exploring it.
	So I've Lived there for three days for paranormal lockdown.
	And, you know, I want to go to the basement because there's this kind of weird energy down there that kind of morphs and changes into what it wants.
	And what I've learned over the course of my career of just going there about six times now, every time I go back, it grows more stronger than the time before.
	And I don't know what it is, but it's almost like it's feeding off a fear of just different people walking into that establishment.
	So it sounds to me like it's feeding, as you say, people say that some of these things feed off the energy of the people who go to them.
	So if they've got trepidation or they've got unanswered questions, it can be said, and it has been, what's that word, postulated, that sometimes entities, if there are such things, actually draw energy from the people.
	And that includes you.
	Absolutely.
	Energy is a real thing.
	You know, we produce energy like kinetic energy.
	And sometimes when that energy releases from the body, when the body dies, it absorbs into the location.
	And I think that's what we're dealing with a lot of the times.
	It's not like the stereotypical Hollywood movie where back in the day we would say, everything's a ghost.
	This is a ghost.
	That's a ghost.
	That noise is a ghost.
	I think we're at, you know, a point, a crossroads, would you say, where now in our life, we're just, everything comes from learning, right?
	Growing and experiencing.
	And as we're evolving as human beings, we're pulling back the layers of what we don't fully understand, just like astronauts and scientists going to the depths of the sea or to other universes or exploring the world, how vast it is.
	And that's what I want to learn.
	I want to learn more about that.
	And I think Bobby Mackey's was a perfect location for me to dig deeper than the typical norm where I would go to a certain location and just find evidence with, you know, pseudoscience like gadgets and gizmos.
	I really want to experience it full hand, kind of cross over as far as I can go to pull back that layer and see something new that we don't fully understand as human beings so we can push, you know, and revolutionize the way we think outside the box rather than, you know, inside the box, what we know every day.
	Bobby Mackey's one of your favorite places.
	Just for people who haven't seen the videos on YouTube of you at Bobby Mackey's, talk to me about what this place was.
	It was all sorts of different things.
	It was a casino at one point.
	Mobsters from the Cincinnati mob ran it.
	So there was a lot of stuff that went down there that we'll probably never hear of.
	It was a dance.
	It was a place to go to dance, have fun.
	It's a honky-tonk bar.
	You know, Bobby Mackey has been a great friend of mine for years now.
	So has Matt Coates over there, who's the security guard, and Bobby's wife, Denise.
	They're all amazing people.
	I love them, and I go there as much as I can when I'm not busy living in another haunted location.
	But it just has so much to offer there.
	If you love music, a good time.
	Upstairs is all about that.
	But downstairs in the basement, it hits you in like a wave, a tidal wave of energy, and it comes and goes.
	So it just intrigues me a lot.
	Did we say what city this was in?
	Sorry if we didn't.
	It's in Wilder, Kentucky, right outside of Cincinnati in the United States.
	And the video that I saw, and I know it's one of a number that you've done, that was you and somebody else, and I think it was all done in black and white.
	And you were recreating the stuff that had happened to you there.
	And this was not, as you said, the kind of stuff that you experience at Bobby Mackey's is not, you know, your traditional ghost looks like a man in a white sheet.
	This is smarter stuff than that.
	I believe so.
	I mean, we did a lot of just different experiments that we set up there when I lived there for three days.
	And I slept in every possible place that was all reported to be extremely haunted or phenomena that we just can't understand.
	I even put a hammock.
	I tied a hammock to where this well is that they call the portal to health.
	And I put a hammock over that.
	And I kind of, you know, slept inside this hammock above this well that was dug up a decade ago.
	For people who haven't seen it, when you look at the videos, it's a very unusual basement because it has got this depression.
	It almost looks like a little mini swimming pool in the middle.
	And that's the well.
	Yeah, it's weird.
	So it used to also be a slaughterhouse.
	So it was a slaughterhouse, and then all the blood and everything would go into the well, which I know is a looking river.
	So that's kind of what it was.
	It was a lot of things.
	I just think that the location has built up some sort of energy and it's manifested its own entity at this point.
	So it's not your typical haunting with a ghost.
	It's an entity that has taken form from other people going there and putting their energy into it.
	And it's kind of taken on this negative impression that it can morph and change into what it wants now, almost like an elemental in a sense.
	So it's very bizarre at this point.
	And that's what I think interests me more than anything.
	And when you sleep there, Nick, and it's a braver thing than I could do, does the phenomena in this particular location, does it wake you?
	Does it want to be known?
	Oh, definitely.
	I mean, it's strange.
	You know, there's a lot at this point in my life that doesn't scare me just from sleeping in all these locations.
	I think what scares me is the environment half the time.
	It's such a, you know, some of these environments are really just bad to be breathing in the air and living in the environment for three days.
	It's mentally and physically just taxing on the body.
	And I'm always trying to stay positive because it can really tear you down.
	And the energy too at some of these locations can kind of mess with your head a little bit.
	I don't know how to describe it, but when I leave that location, I try to close that door behind me and I try to rid myself and wash all that negativity off of me because it can really soak in and kind of recap it on your life a little bit.
	Not that I would be brave enough.
	I don't think I could be brave enough to stay in a place like that, but you have.
	The thing that I would do if I was, just assuming for a moment that I might be, I would want to try to communicate with it.
	In other words, I would say, okay, who are you?
	What are you?
	And what are you here to do?
	Did you try that?
	Absolutely.
	That's exactly the mentality I went into Bobby Mackey's music world with because I've already been there a bunch of times and I know that there's unexplainable things that I can't fully understand, but I just wanted to confront this being, we'll just call it this being of some sort of energetic form that has manifested in the basement because I wanted to learn what it is.
	So we did this experiment that took me kind of spiritually on a different route and we documented a lot of weird things happening on our equipment, but I actually saw it in this weird perspective through my eyes.
	And it was this weird like face that formed kind of in the wood beams.
	And it was almost like the skin was drooping off the face, like the eyes were just like a candlestick just being a little bit more.
	It sounds to me like an archetypal ghoul, almost like something that, you know, in the UK.
	We have these ghouls carved onto the externals of cathedrals, which you must have seen.
	It almost sounds like something like that.
	It was, and that's the best visual picture I can kind of paint for people unless you were in my shoes, you know, experiencing it.
	But the problem is, is like, I believe that this thing, whatever it was, was trying to create this manifestation of what it looked like to scare me.
	I think it was trying to create fear on me so it can draw the energy out of me and feed off of that in some weird way.
	So whatever it is, and I'm sorry to interrupt, it has the capacity to be able to shape itself in a way that it knows will have an impact on you.
	Absolutely.
	That's exactly what it did.
	Which makes this an amazing location.
	What an amazing location, Nick.
	It is.
	And it was interesting because we set up a security camera down there in the basement when we slept there.
	And our camera actually captured this energy form that started in the back of the basement and it grew in size.
	And then it manifested and it floated all the way down and went over one of the beds that we were sleeping in.
	And it traced the camera.
	Then it flew by the camera really slow in what appeared to be this strong energy that had some sort of plasma around the outer layer of this circular beam that was taking form.
	And I've never seen anything like that.
	It happened on camera for eight minutes that it grew and it was absolutely mind-blowing.
	I put it up on my YouTube account.
	You can go online and see it, but it's one of the best pieces of evidence I've ever seen.
	No, it is a remarkable location.
	And the owners of this place, maybe it's good for business.
	It seems to be the kind of thing that draws people in if you're interested in these things.
	Have they ever considered trying to, I don't know how you would do it, but remove that, you know, clean it away from the place, exercise it?
	There was a bunch of different things that took place back in the 90s that happened there.
	Bobby Mackey has been there for 35 plus years.
	He's been playing music there every Friday, Saturday night.
	He goes there to play his music.
	He's very passionate about the music upstairs.
	His band is amazing and they do a great job.
	And it's a great place to go.
	It's just something is lingering in that basement.
	I don't know what it is.
	And it just has so much history replaying there.
	So they haven't necessarily tried that, but Bobby is also a little bit skeptic, which was interesting because when I showed him the evidence and we were talking and the last time I went back on this new episode, I'll be releasing here soon, Bobby was blown away by it.
	He's like, in all my years, I've never seen anything like this.
	So now I'm more open about it because I just wasn't sure.
	But this right here, this piece of evidence actually makes me consider that there is something else here rather than, you know, this establishment just sitting here and hearing the stories.
	In the quiet moments when you think about stuff, have you ever considered, as I've considered, why there are some places that exhibit things like this?
	And those things, as you said, seem to sequentially feed off whatever energy is brought to them.
	In other words, maybe the fear or the inquisitiveness of people going in there.
	And why there are places where events have happened, but they don't register anything like that.
	In other words, how come there are places like that, but not everywhere?
	I think it has to do with tragedy.
	I think that us as humans, we grow older and we live in these bodies and we die in these bodies.
	No matter what your beliefs are, no matter what your background or religion or anything like that, we all are born into this world and we all die in this world.
	Every second that we're talking, we're passing away.
	But the conscious thought in the brain and also the energy that we have in our bodies as we evolve, I think that's ignited when some tragedy or something happens when you die or something dramatic like in a prison.
	Like, for instance, Shepton Mallet Prison near Bath there in England, it was absolutely an amazing location, but it had so much sad tragedy with prisoners and murders and killings and all this crazy dramatic energy that's built up on this place.
	Now, you got to think all that is kind of soaked into the soil.
	What happens to all that conscious thought, that electricity, that energy, the atmosphere that it's built over centuries of being there as a prison, right?
	And I think you said the last time we talked about Shefton Mann, it was used by the American Army, wasn't it, as a place to put their own prisoners in the Second World War?
	To execute.
	Yep.
	I think it was about 18 soldiers they executed right there in a noose inside the building.
	They actually built it on part of where the old jail cells were.
	And it's just bizarre to me because I remember standing there and seeing all these shadow figures moving, you know, from one jail cell to the next outside of the place.
	And it's weird.
	It's like, it's almost like they're observing and they're collecting data or learning some sort of information.
	There's some other beings that can break through into our realm and coexist with us as human beings.
	So what are these things?
	I mean, that's the ultimate question is none of us have the right answer of what happens when you die.
	Even believing nothing happens when you die is believing something happens.
	So what truly does happen?
	You know, I think I've talked to thousands of people with different experiences.
	I've talked to tons that have had near-death experiences, that have different stories.
	But I think that's the ultimate question that I want to learn as I grow older until it's my time to go and be content with it is let's be groundbreaking.
	Let's discover something new as human beings and work together and try to figure out the ultimate question.
	And I think sometimes it's not even knowing or having that final answer.
	I think it's about taking the information as right now as we're all living on our different journeys in our life and exploring that and having a conversation so we can all kind of learn together.
	Because I think we want to just learn and experience and then move on to that next place wherever it is.
	Okay, let's park it there.
	Nick Groff, paranormal investigator, man with 600,000 followers plus on Twitter.
	My website, theunexplained.tv, that is the way to communicate with me.
	Send me an email from there.
	like to hear from you, maybe after the show.
	Guest suggestions, thoughts on the show, whatever you want.
	Nick Groff, famous international ghost investigator, is with us here from the US.
	Nick, do you like to be called a ghost investigator, or do you have another title for yourself?
	That's fine.
	I don't know.
	I've been called a lot of things.
	So it's totally fine.
	I think just Nick Roth, criminal investigator, somebody who's just going through life trying to discover something new.
	I've got some questions for listening.
	I think some people call me G, too.
	I don't know why.
	They call you what?
	G. G. Okay.
	Yeah, just for my last name.
	I like that.
	Mr. G. They could call you Mr. G. Yeah, sounds fine.
	Paranormal investigator Mr. G is here.
	Questions from our listeners.
	Jay, who sent me this one before we came on air, he just wants to know if you're coming back here to the UK on your tour.
	I would love to.
	We were talking about it.
	We were thinking about doing some Nick Roff tours out there in the United Kingdom.
	So probably in the near future, we will.
	We're planning it out.
	I've just been super busy with a new project I'm working on right now.
	Okay, and we'll probably hear about that, will we, in the fullness of time?
	Because Sue is very keen to...
	That sounds like that's a big part of them.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, the UK has so much to offer.
	I love it there.
	Everybody out there is just awesome.
	I mean, they've been huge supporters and stuff.
	I get, you know, comments every day on my social media.
	So I can't thank everybody out there enough, how supportive everyone is.
	You've got a ton of support.
	Are we more haunted than the U.S. because we've got more history?
	That's been a good question.
	I think at the end of the day, you know, it's the location.
	I think it's the history, the location.
	You definitely have more, richer history for sure.
	But I think, you know, there's places like Bobby Mackeys in America that are just extremely haunted or weird or bizarre.
	And then there's places in the United Kingdom that are just off the Richter scale, like Shepton Mallet or Shrewsbury Prison or locations like that.
	So it just depends, I think, on the location, the history, and just the experience.
	Because I could go to a location and maybe, you know, it's not as extreme, but then I could go there again a year later and maybe it's it's just hopping.
	I just don't know.
	Do you know why that is?
	Why does it vary like that?
	I don't.
	Does it have to do with how you feel?
	Yeah, I think it's strange where it could be the environment.
	It could be just maybe the right place at the right time.
	I always say the paranormal is like finding a needle in the haystack.
	You know, when you find something that's truly genuine that you just can't understand.
	So it's just hit and miss.
	It's like anything.
	You know, something weird is not going to happen all the time.
	Got a tweet in from Don, who lives not very far.
	We talked about Shepton Mallet Prison.
	He lives 20 miles from there.
	He says they often have paranormal night events.
	He wants to know, and this kind of talks to the thing that we've just been talking about, whether you can repeat this, whether it's the same every time.
	He wants to know that if he was to go there and maybe go there for one of those nights they hold there, is he likely to experience something?
	I don't know whether you can answer that, but Don would like to know.
	Yeah, I mean, that's a tough thing because everybody's different.
	I think if you're open-minded and you search it out and you go to a location and you never know.
	I mean, you could go there for one day and nothing happens.
	It's kind of like watching paint dry sometimes.
	But if Don is going to go there, though, how would he, what's the best way for him to prepare himself to be as, if you can be receptive and assuming these things do exist, what's the best way that he would prepare himself?
	Just be open-minded.
	You know, not everything is a ghost or paranormal.
	You know, if you hear some creak or a loud noise, I mean, just remember that a lot of these locations are very old.
	So if you go to a location, be open-minded and be aware of your surroundings and just experience.
	I think everything is about experiences.
	So good or bad, it's an experience that you're having to learn from.
	And I think you just have to be open-minded, but also you have to be logical about what you're experiencing too.
	So you can kind of try to comprehend what's happening.
	And if you can't, then who knows?
	Maybe it's paranormal.
	When I go to a place like that, I always try on some level to communicate with whatever is purported to be there.
	So whether, you know, if I'm feeling brave, I might actually speak out loud or I might just think at it.
	Is there any use in people like Don who go to places like Shepton Mallet Prison to do that?
	You know, in other words, should he go there and physically, proactively try and make contact?
	I think yes and no.
	So the yes to that is, yeah, you want to kind of confront the environment and say who you are, talk out loud.
	But I've realized the less I do that, the less I, you know, go running after things or searching for things, the less things happen.
	When I'm just there listening and just taking in the environment and being quiet, more things happen is what I started to learn.
	So for instance, when I was there, actually a good story is when I was at Shrewsbury Prison in Shrewsbury, and I was sleeping on the solitary confinement second floor there.
	And what was weird is I forgot that I left my digital recorder running and I didn't say anything.
	I fell asleep for just like maybe an hour or something.
	And when I woke up, I played back my recording and all there should have been is white noise, right?
	It should have just been simply quiet.
	And what happened was...
	Yeah, or the sound of me snoring or something.
	And I've had that happen before.
	That, or seeing on your static camera, raccoons walking by you, which is actually really creepy, by the way.
	Or a bat dive bomb in your sleeping bag, which is weird.
	You'd never sleep comfortably again, would you?
	Okay.
	No, absolutely.
	So what happened?
	What did you record?
	So on the digital recorder, you know, all of a sudden you hear white noise, then you hear footsteps running up to the recorder where I was laying down, and you hear also a dog start growling.
	I could hear it like growling.
	Like you could distinctly tell it was a dog growling on the recorder.
	And what was strange is, I heard somebody run away, and this dog like huffing and puffing and running away, too.
	And I didn't realize, like, how is there a dog in here and whatnot?
	So I asked one of the officers who was still working there that we interviewed, and he's been there for like 18 years, and he was there when he worked there, too.
	And he said that there was a guard who had a dog that would run around everywhere and it died before the prison was shut down.
	So that was interesting because I didn't know that.
	So in a way, that's more evidential, isn't it?
	Because it's something that you could not have known.
	Exactly.
	And the best part about that is I wasn't looking for it.
	I wasn't talking out loud.
	I was just laying there and just a part of the environment and it happens.
	So sometimes I think simply just taking in the environment and just standing there and just waiting, it's kind of like fishing, you know, you go fishing and you cast your line and you just sit there and wait.
	Don, by the way, Nia Shepton Mallett, thanks you for the great advice.
	Just thought I'd pass that on.
	We've got listeners all over the world.
	Shane is in Sydney.
	He's one of our listeners in Australia, where it's tomorrow morning already.
	And he's asked two questions and I'll try and consolidate the both of them.
	Number one, Shane asks, are you aware of, and I'm sure there are, are there many hauntings that you're aware of in Australia and Sydney, places like that?
	Also, have you heard of mortuaries being haunted?
	I presume, Shane, you're asking that for a reason that you might know one that has a bit of a reputation in Sydney.
	But, you know, have you been to Australia?
	What do you think of Australia as a haunted venue?
	Yeah.
	Hey, how's it going, Shane?
	And I love Australia.
	I want to go.
	I haven't been yet.
	It's been on my kind of bucket list to get out there.
	I've seen several locations, like an asylum and some other locations I want to investigate out there.
	So I will definitely in the future.
	I also find it very fascinating and interesting that, you know, they're in a different time zone right now, which realistically time doesn't exist for us as human beings, but we create time because we grow older and we're in different parts of the world.
	So it's kind of interesting, you know, that it's morning time there and it's 6.30 where I am right now.
	Well, you know, people say, can you do time travel?
	That is, that's real life time travel.
	If it's 6.30 where you are, it's 11.30 in the UK, 11.32.
	And in Australia and Sydney right now, I think it's 10.32 in the morning.
	It's Monday already.
	So, you know, real life time travel.
	So, Shane, I think the answer is, tell me if I'm wrong, Nick, that Nick is going to be coming your way soon, ish.
	Absolutely.
	I'll be out there soon if I'm not out there right now in the future.
	If I fold me in half, maybe I'm there right now.
	Actually, there is a theory that says that time is like a sheet of paper.
	If you fold it, you would be able to time travel.
	If you could fold it in half, you close the two pieces like I'm slapping my hands together, then simply you leap from one place to another in time.
	And that's absolutely.
	I mean, think about it, though.
	If we create time, right, as human beings, because we grow old.
	The sun, you know, rises and sets.
	So we have to rest because our bodies will give up and collapse.
	So the interesting part about that, I've been talking about a lot at these events that I do is picture yourself in like a haunted location.
	We're all sitting there in a room that has a ton of history.
	And if you date back, like we're in present time right now, now if you date back to like, let's say the 1700s, 1800s, whatever it is, way back in the past, and there's other people right now in that time period doing something in that room.
	What happens if that's what we're experiencing on both sides of it, right?
	So in that time, those people are seeing us kind of leap through the time and we have our like fancy clothes on and we look futuristic like we're some weird being right and it's kind of assuming that like the time is like an LP record with the old tracks on it and that sometimes the arm of the the record deck playing the LP record skips across to another track and suddenly you are in that reality.
	There are a number of realities that exist simultaneously and maybe what we call ghosts is just simply the arm on the record deck skipping a track.
	Alter realities is a real thing.
	Different dimensions.
	I mean we know there's tons of them so I think there's all sorts of different layers and we start pulling those layers back that's what you get.
	So that's what's interesting about our field is the paranormal, the supernatural, all of it.
	It's encompassed by all this weird stuff that we just don't fully understand.
	I mean the universe just works in weird ways that it has bleeps and bleed throughs and, you know, this energy and this electricity and this these time warps.
	Who knows what's next?
	You know, I think as we move forward, we're just going to keep discovering new things.
	Yep, I absolutely with you there.
	And science increasingly is coming to accept or at least begin to understand these things.
	There was one investigation online and you got loads of videos and references online that you were investigating and you'll know where this was.
	You know, not everything is neutral.
	Not everything is just a sound or something that you see or sense or hear.
	Sometimes the experiences that you have are very palpable.
	And this was one of them.
	You were investigating, I think with somebody else, a cave system.
	And you got the very real sense that you were somehow being pursued by something.
	There were things, that's how you described it, following you.
	And then they started scratching you.
	It sounded very scary.
	Can you recall that investigation?
	I'm trying to remember which cave or underground system I was in because I usually get myself into a lot of trouble going deep into caves and stuff, not knowing where I'm going.
	Was it in Draclow Tunnels in England or was it a tunnel system going into a mine trap deep down into the ground?
	Because I went like three hours.
	That may have been the one.
	And there was a woman with you.
	This sounds like it's something that may have been from paranormal lockdown, but it was just the sense of something malevolent pursuing you and actually scratching you.
	Yeah, I don't, I'm trying to remember.
	I don't remember getting scratched, but I remember something pursuing me.
	I remember when I was alone, my battery on my IR light was dying and I was in complete darkness and my flashlight started dimming too.
	And I remember turning my camera on all alone deep into the Drake Latins, which is like a mile in.
	And all of a sudden, I saw this figure Just move around the corner into the darkness.
	And it felt like it would, when I started to leave in pursue of it, it felt like it was following me.
	And all my lights went out, and I was in darkness, and I couldn't figure out how to get back.
	Did your lights work after that, or did it completely sap them, and that was it?
	No, no, the batteries died.
	So I was in the darkness, just kind of feeling my way through the cave, not knowing where I was going.
	And then my other co-investigator, Katrina, she yelled out for me and I figured out where she was because she shined her flashlight and stuff.
	It was pretty wild.
	But good thing I don't get claustrophobic.
	You know, on the latest edition of my podcast at the unexplained.tv edition 405, I interview Elaine Kelly.
	And there's no reason why you should have come across Elaine, but you should meet Elaine Kelly.
	She's at an organization in the northeast of England called Spectre Detectors, and she's got a great attitude to all of this.
	But she tells stories of people being pushed around by, you know, for want of a better word, spirits, you know, actually being physically jostled about the place.
	Are you aware of those phenomena?
	Yeah, I mean, I've heard tons of different people with different experiences.
	I mean, I felt hands push against my back and I felt like the imprint of some sort of energy like touch my body and stuff before.
	So I've had different experiences like that.
	It's really fascinating, you know, when you have like an encounter like that because you don't know.
	I mean, you don't see what that is, right?
	It's invisible, but you feel those impressions of like hands and whatnot touching your physical body.
	So it's just very strange to me.
	So I've had things like that happen.
	You talked about prisons.
	Hospitals are also great venues.
	You know, not only standard hospitals where people's ailments are treated, but also mental hospitals and places like that, both sides of the Atlantic.
	There's a place in Liverpool.
	I don't know whether you've been to it, but if you haven't, you need to go there.
	Newsham Hospital or Newsham Park Hospital in Liverpool, which being from Liverpool, I'm well aware of.
	It's an old red brick building.
	It looks like some kind of public institution, like a prison or something.
	I always found it a really foreboding place.
	But they do ghost tours there.
	And there is a lot of noise and experience that people claim that they've had there.
	So hospitals are a place or a location where these things seem to turn up.
	Yeah, so I lived at New Sham Park Hospital for three days.
	I lived there, actually.
	And it was crazy.
	I mean, it was really sad with one of the top floors when I was in because there's a story of a little boy who was kept inside one of the closets and locked in for bad behavior.
	And then they found him and he died of, I think, food or exhaustion or something like that.
	So just the energy was off the charts there.
	And I actually slept inside the morgue on the morgue slab for the whole night.
	On the slab?
	Yeah, inside.
	Yeah.
	So they had this separate building where they would disintegrate the bodies and burn the ashes and all that stuff.
	And they had the morgue in there.
	And I thought if there's any place that has some sort of energy or some sort of like haunting, it would have to be here, right?
	Where the bodies would be brought and put to rest.
	So I went in there and it was absolutely disgusting.
	And I don't know why I did it, but I guess to push myself mentally.
	So I slept in that.
	And yeah, I mean, I heard all sorts of things happening when I was sleeping on the morgue slab.
	All sorts of things.
	Weepings and wailings and what I heard something being dragged on the floor.
	It sounded like someone shuffling their feet walking around outside the morgue.
	It was scary because I couldn't really see and I was in this small, you know, casket-like.
	But I'm telling you, once you lay down, knowing you're still alive, you kind of realize what it's like to be dead in a sense.
	And subconsciously, it really messes with your head.
	I mean, there's a huge psychology, like just psychologically, it messes with you.
	And I know, yeah, when I leave locations, just mentally, I'm just a little messed up for a little while.
	But I'm very well-grounded and positive individual.
	And I try to stay healthy and fit and whatnot.
	So it kind of, you know, it takes me a little bit to regain my energy when I leave some of these locations.
	But yeah, that location was weird.
	Right.
	We're going to take some commercials.
	Nick Groff, Ghost Investigator, Extraordinaire.
	Just a quick message for you from Richie.
	Richie says, hi, Howard.
	My 19-year-old daughter, Mara, is a great fan of G, that's you, and catches most of his shows shown in the UK.
	Big fan at Ratcliffe-on-Trent in the UK.
	So one of your fans getting in touch.
	Nick Groff, Ghost Investigator, Extraordinaire, known around the world, is on with us now.
	If you have a question, you can always tweet it.
	Derek Dell in Dumfrey, Scotland, has sent me an email through my website, theunexplained.tv.
	He says, good show tonight, Howard Thank you, Dell.
	Dell says this, Nick, and this might be of interest to you.
	I also have a jail ghost story.
	In 2010, I was a prison officer, says Dell, at HMP Corntonvale in Sterling, a women's jail.
	I saw a plastic bowl fly across my face when all the prisoners were locked up and no staff in the area.
	The prisoners refused to go into a recreation room as they continually saw apparitions in the room.
	It got so bad that the jail priest had to do an exorcism in the area.
	And the area, it's built on the site of a battle, the Battle of Sterling Bridge.
	Many staff reported seeing ghosts in that jail.
	So that's one that I haven't heard of.
	Maybe that's one for your investigations, Nick.
	Do you think?
	Yeah, it sounds amazing.
	I would love to learn more about it.
	Please send it to me.
	I'm always interested in locations that have land, number one, that have a ton of history.
	And then there's just centuries of built-up establishments on top of that.
	So that makes sense.
	I mean, I could see why weird things were happening there.
	But what about the idea?
	And this isn't the first time.
	In fact, I remember one of my teachers at school, Mrs. Wynn.
	God, why, why can't I remember her name years ago?
	She talked to me about a night when she was on the phone to a friend of hers.
	And literally there was a little table in the hallway.
	And, you know, when people had their phones in the hall, table in the hallway, and there was a vase, a vase, as you would say in America, on top of that table.
	And as she was talking to her friend, this vase or vase lifted itself up like a foot into the air and then floated sideways and then floated itself back.
	And Mrs. Wynne was not one to make stuff.
	I don't even know whether she's still with us.
	I hope she is.
	She was not one to make stuff up.
	This is the kind of stuff that you must come into contact with all the time.
	Yeah, I've seen some bizarre things.
	I've seen things move.
	I've documented a lot of activity.
	Definitely, there's something happening.
	I mean, there's thousands of people that have had these experiences or eyewitness accounts.
	So, you know, I've heard tons of stories that are similar to that.
	It's always interesting.
	It's just being at the right place at the right time and just history, again, you know, possibly replaying itself or some sort of energy or the atmosphere.
	There's a lot of things that could be causing these physical things to move in our environments, but it's very rare to happen, but I've experienced it.
	As a lot of people have.
	I haven't experienced it myself, but I'd like to.
	A question from regular listener Connor.
	Thank you for this on the Twitter.
	He says, a lot of ghost investigation tools have been debunked by critics.
	Has Nick considered work with academics and people like that to design or rather prove, he says to design prove, I think you mean to prove the debunkers wrong.
	Or will there always be the issue where all things ghost are intangible and will never be measured?
	I think is what Connor's basically saying.
	Do you think we'll be able to create reliable tools to measure presences or will it always be something that's kind of nebulous and out there?
	I think is the point.
	Tell me if I'm wrong, Connor.
	What do you think, Nick?
	Yeah, I mean, I worked really hard on season three of Pernamal Lockdown, Perimal Lockdown in the UK.
	I really wanted to work with engineers, electrical engineers.
	I had Elizabeth Saint come on as an electrical engineer to help me develop and create and also work with different people in the field to bring to light some like real, real stuff to data collect and learn more and try to think outside the box and try different elements and different things to test.
	And the problem is, is sometimes when we use like the typical norm of, you know, like we're just going back in time where we're using a spirit box or we're using the EMF detector, just stuff that's going to, you know, collectively get information from the environment.
	I think we have to push ourselves more farther than that.
	But there are a lot of scientists.
	There are a lot of people that are looking beyond that.
	I mean, look at Tesla, look at Einstein, look at all these people even going way back that were looking for that or radio.
	I think there's a lot of that that we can actually start diving into.
	And I think people are doing it now.
	It's just not enough of it.
	And we have to see there are serious academics who are doing this kind of research.
	There's Caroline Watt, for example, who's got the Kirstler chair of parapsychology at the University of Edinburgh, who's a friend of this show, a recent podcast guest.
	You know, there are people in serious academic institutions doing research into these things.
	Have you worked with any of them?
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, I've worked with tons.
	Last season for permanent lockdown, I was working with a ton of people that were all, you know, well established into that.
	So I think, you know, it's just a matter of trying to discover experiment.
	The problem is, is sometimes we don't have enough time, right?
	So we have to go into a location and it's almost like you have to isolate yourself and study that environment, a specific area for years and try to data collect all that, that whatever you're looking for and dissecting it into science and trying to pull back the layers to discover something that we claim as unexplainable or phenomena.
	So it's really difficult because you can't plan these things.
	You can't have it happen, you know, just by snapping your fingers.
	It just happens when it happens.
	So I think that's the problem too is, you know, it's been happening.
	You know, our government or the secret societies or whatever they have going on behind closed doors, I know that there are places that are doing it.
	It's just not so public.
	Unlike, you know, people like me that are just public about whatever I'm doing and just documenting my experiences and whatnot.
	A lot of people, glad that you do.
	In the next hour, I'm going to be speaking to a man called Ivor Davis.
	He is a well-known foreign correspondent.
	He's a British guy, worked for the Daily Express, other organs of the media, lives in Los Angeles, has spent 50 years of his life covering and being interested in the Charles Manson murders, which we'll be talking, as you may know, Nick, next week, this coming week is the 50th anniversary of those terrible events in California.
	The locations where they happened, are you aware of any presences, anything paranormal there?
	Yes, so I went to a location that David Omen owns out there in California, the Omen House.
	And it's a couple houses down from Sharon Tate's old house.
	And so I've been there.
	There's a lot of energy up there.
	I mean, go check out David Omen's house.
	You can go online and definitely talk to him.
	He has all sorts of stories.
	And I think he's a fascinating individual with his location.
	And it's just really interesting.
	I mean, you know, it's a tragic story about Sharon Tate.
	I think it's so publicized and stuff.
	And, you know, it's just a sad story of what happened, the brutality behind it, the manipulation, the, you know, that individual who set out to murder.
	I don't know.
	It's just like some things are, you know, just popularized because Hollywood or whatever, just the lurking of that nature.
	But definitely there's an energy about it.
	And that just goes back to what I was talking about in the beginning, the tragedy, you know, the tragedy of some event that took place.
	And now this energy and this story just keeps reliving throughout the present time.
	And there are people who say that there are things that have been reported, I think you can tell me if I'm wrong, around the house that Marilyn Monroe died in.
	Yeah, so I actually stayed in her suite, Marilyn Monroe's suite at the Roosevelt Hotel.
	And I had a weird experience there one time.
	It was actually when I was in LA, Los Angeles.
	And I don't know.
	I've never been to her actual house, but there was a weird place where she lived inside this suite at the Roosevelt Hotel for months.
	She lived there for a long time.
	They actually say that people see her haunted image in the mirror outside of her room or whatever.
	I didn't see anything like that, but who knows?
	I think it's all fascinating.
	You know, a lot of these people, another tragic story that keeps living on and it gets popularized and whatnot.
	I just find it all fascinating.
	But I think the locations that are amazing to me are the mental hospitals, the hospitals that were once, you know, had all these different energies and, you know, these psych words and stuff like that.
	I think those are the most active locations because they have different amounts of energy that keep playing out.
	And I always joke around too.
	some prisons are pretty active.
	I always joke and say I've been to more prisons than prisoners.
	That's just, I guess.
	But you can always go home at the end of the day.
	Yeah, I can always leave.
	In locations like that, and one thing I do have to just note here is that obviously we're talking digitally here, so there's a small digital delay between us, but we're coping well with it.
	In locations like that.
	Why is it that on some occasions it would appear to those who investigate these things and believe in them, the presences are trying to relay some kind of message, perhaps about how they passed?
	I mean, we all know of celebrated cases where murder victims have sometimes come back or tried to communicate who did it.
	But that doesn't happen in every event, does it?
	I wonder what it is that gives, if you believe in presences of this kind, the ability to communicate in that way and to be able to say, look, you need to be looking at the third cupboard on the right and you'll find the murder weapon there, that sort of stuff.
	Yeah, I was investigating a location called the Monroe House and we had a gut instinct to go down into the foundation of the building and I started crawling around and come to find out, long story short, I said the owner should dig down there and basically found a femur bone and a skull coming up of some sort of skeletal remains.
	And it was really fascinating to me because, you know, I had to shut down and call the police and call all this stuff to investigate further.
	But it's just weird.
	I think sometimes that energy or something, you know, we consider time as we're moving forward.
	But again, the time I feel sits still on that other plane, that other realm.
	And I think sometimes those beings, those energies, the conscious thoughts, they're still searching out what's going on, what happened to them, where are they?
	They're lost.
	There's a lot of cases, and I've actually experienced it with like different family members that have passed where, you know, it was very tragic and it still plays off where they're searching to try to figure out where to go, how to like move on and stuff like that.
	You know, and you hear it a lot with suicide cases.
	It's very sad.
	And when it happens, I feel like the spirits or the energy, they're looking, they're searching for help.
	They're searching for somebody to help them in a way.
	Do they always know that they're dead?
	That's maybe a really crazy question, maybe a great question.
	I don't know.
	You tell me.
	I think sometimes not.
	I think sometimes they're confused and sometimes they might know or they're scared to move on.
	I think that it's like anything, right?
	As we're living, we're scared to go into a place or we're scared to move on or scared to take chances in life.
	And I think it's somewhat similar with that conscious thought that's lingering with the energy that moves on outside of the body.
	So I can only imagine that that's a possibility that the people once living, when they die, they have that kind of energetic form that they don't know where to go.
	And I think sometimes just hearing us like the living talk or communicating with our devices or somehow able to communicate, it gives them a little bit of, I don't know, closure help to kind of pursue that light or whatever they need to do to positively move on.
	I mean, that's what I'm about, though.
	I'm about like positive energy because there's too much negativity in this world.
	And I think, you know, I love a good horror movie.
	I love watching horror movies and I love, you know, some good music and stuff.
	But at the end of the day, there's so much negativity that I think that we have to remain positive because at the end of the day, we're going to die and I don't want any regrets and we want to move on peacefully and have closure because we truly don't know what happens when you die.
	That's a good point to leave it.
	We've got about 30 seconds.
	You say that you're working on a new project that will be interesting.
	It's taken you four years of planning.
	When will we know what it is?
	Coming up really soon.
	Coming up really soon.
	It's going to be in the next year.
	It's one of the most epic projects I've ever worked on in my life.
	It's going to be groundbreaking.
	It's going to pull back layers that people have never experienced before.
	And I'm really excited about it.
	But stay tuned.
	You'll be able to see it on my social media pages.
	And check out VidiSpace, V-I-D-I dot space.
	You can see all my perimeter content on there now.
	And I hope you'll come on here and talk about it.
	Nick Groff, thank you very much.
	Take care.
	Take care.
	Thank you.
	Nick Groff, and I definitely will speak to him here on the podcast at some point.
	And we'll get some details about this new project that he says has taken four years to put together.
	That sounds like it's going to be something pretty big.
	Always like to hear from Nick Groff, and I know that you do too.
	Your thoughts on him?
	Very welcome indeed.
	Please go to my website, theunexplained.tv, which is honed and maintained by Adam Cornwell from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
	And as you're passing by, if you can, please leave a donation for the show if you can.
	And if you have made a donation recently, thank you very, very much for that.
	And send me an email too.
	The email link is on the website, theunexplained.tv.
	And when you get in touch, please tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use this show.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	The next guest, as I say, very, very controversial man, Bart Sebrell.
	The man who has for many years consistently denied, and he says he has evidence, that we ever went to the moon 50 years ago, or indeed at all.
	This is Bart Sebrell.
	This is not the first time in history that the majority has been wrong, and the majority is right who has proved right generations later.
	I mean, the majority thought the world was flat when it was around.
	The majority thought the Earth was the center of the solar system when it was the sun.
	And the majority of doctors and scientists thought if you bled a person, that would cure them from a virus.
	You know what I mean?
	Just because scientists, the majority of one generation think something doesn't mean that it's true.
	So it's really sad and pathetic when it's the only time in history that a scientific milestone, like let's say the first automobile or the first airplane or the first nuclear reactor, that 50 years later, no one on earth could repeat it.
	When in fact, it should be, you know, 100 times better 50 years later.
	It seems to me, Bart, that's that's one of the main planks of your argument, isn't it?
	And it's one that does, you know, that is worth questioning.
	We were told it was about budgets.
	But 50 years on, you know, we made a progression from the Wright brothers to going to the moon within less than 50 years.
	So theoretically, if we went to the moon 50 years ago, we should now be to the furthermost galaxies, and we're not.
	And I know that that's one of the points, but you can put it better than I can, that you've been putting all these years.
	Well, yeah, I mean, you're right.
	If we went to the moon on the first attempt with 1960s technology that predated cell phones and microwave ovens, in fact, a cell phone has one million times the computing power than all of NASA did back then.
	We would be in another solar system by now.
	We would have been on Mars 10 years later, 40 years ago, which never happened.
	And there'd be bases on the moon right now.
	You know, this whole Trump administration thing saying that we need to go to the moon as a first step to Mars and beyond.
	But wait a minute, we were supposed to be there six times.
	Wouldn't our logical first step, you know, be to go to Mars next if we had been there six times?
	And it's the only time in history that this valuable equipment that they spent $175 billion to create, they deliberately destroyed all the hardware, all the schematics, all the flight data, all the original videotapes afterwards.
	That's never happened in the history of the world.
	I mean, the B-52 bomber was invented 70 years ago, and there's 200 of them still in service because nothing works better.
	It's also the only time there's no independent press coverage.
	How do you mean there's three eyewitnesses that a TV picture control by the government?
	How do you know that all the evidence, the first-hand evidence, the master tapes of the recordings, those sorts of things, how do you know that they were destroyed or lost?
	NASA said so.
	NASA said they've lost all of the original videotapes, all the original flight data, and all the schematics for them.
	That's an admission they made themselves.
	They said they also destroyed all the hardware.
	They've admitted that on camera.
	They even have their own astronaut, one of them, saying that he hopes to eventually go to the moon.
	You have another person at NASA saying the technology to protect astronauts for radiation beyond Earth orbit has yet to be invented.
	That's been explained, hasn't it?
	Because you're talking about the Van Allen radiation belts.
	Now, I had a very prominent space scientist on here probably a year ago, and I put exactly that point to him.
	And, you know, it isn't the way the Van Allen belts work, and my scientific listeners can confirm this for me.
	They ebb and they flow.
	So if you pick your time, you can avoid being fried by radiation.
	And that's precisely what we did.
	No, that's not it at all.
	Kelly Smith, go type in on the YouTube channel.
	Kelly Smith says the technology to go through the radiation belt has not been invented.
	I've talked to one of these experts that you've had onto the program, and I asked him, how do you know that this radiation is not lethal?
	And he says, well, because the Apollo astronauts threw it to the moon and back.
	Therefore, it must not be lethal.
	You know what I mean?
	It's the only time in history astronauts have gone through that, and no one has left Earth orbit in 50 years.
	I mean, if I told you that Toyota made a car 50 years ago that could go 50,000 miles on a gallon of gasoline, and yet here we are five decades later, and their best car can only go 1,000th the distance.
	I mean, that's what they're claiming.
	They can only go 1,000th the distance to the moon today, and yet somehow they went 50 years ago, they went 1,000 times farther with 50-year-older technology.
	Now, does that make sense?
	If I told you that analogy with Toyota, you'd know the obviousness of the fraud because of people's pride and their emotional attachment.
	You were very keen that you didn't want to come on a radio show that wouldn't let you speak.
	So I hope I've done that.
	But as we look back 50 years, there is a welter of scientific evidence and accounts that we've been there.
	For example, one of my listeners points out something that I was going to put to you, but I think it's Peter who put this.
	Yeah, Peter Robinson puts this point.
	You know, we have got evidence in that we've seen remnants of what we left.
	We've now got devices that are good enough, optics that are good enough to be able to see these things.
	How do you explain that?
	Well, that's actually not the case.
	According to NASA, there's no Earth-based telescope that's powerful enough to resolve resolution on the moon.
	Now, they claim to have a lunar orbiting satellite only 30 miles above the lunar surface, and they show us pictures.
	Remember, these are the people who faked full-body pictures of an astronaut standing on the surface of a moon when it was really a television studio.
	Okay, so you're asking those same people to give us additional proof of counterfeiting that they did, you know, when they're showing us little scratches that are supposed to be footprints and a little dot that's supposed to be the shadow of the lunar module.
	I mean, Google's satellite from 26,000 miles up can show your license plate.
	So I don't see why 50-year-better technology 30 miles up shouldn't show a footprint.
	But you're asking the criminal to supply more evidence of their innocence.
	I mean, that doesn't make any sense.
	If this was the crime of the century, if it was the biggest cover-up of all time, then life being life and human nature being human nature, you know that somebody would have spilled the beans by now, and they haven't.
	Well, that's not, that's, see, these are not really thought-through answers, not on your part, because these are just standard things that seem logical until you look into them a little bit deeper, like I had.
	That's like saying a bank teller and the CEO of Enron know the same thing about the corruption that's going on.
	Do you really think the CIA is stupid enough to tell the person who made the glove or the door of the boot, hey, you know, we're really faking the moon missions, but don't tell anybody?
	The whole thing is.
	Yeah, but a lot of people worked on the missions, and if they had a big secret, you know, some of these people have passed now because of the amount of time that's gone by, then the propensity for human beings is for some of them to be able to, if they have a big secret that's been bugging them for all of these years, then the propensity is for people to tell all just before they leave this earth, just before they die.
	And nobody's done that.
	You've spent your life being told that you're wrong.
	Well, wait a minute.
	That's not true either.
	Okay.
	One of my sources was there when they filmed Apollo 11 on June 2nd of 1968 at a base in the United States.
	He was in charge of security, and he did not want his testimony released until 10 years after his death.
	Recently it occurred.
	And we have the military base.
	We have the code name of the project.
	We have a list of President Johnson's 15 visitors that he allowed access to there.
	Any of them still alive?
	I'm sorry?
	Any of those people, the 15 visitors who went to visit what you said was the movie set, any of those people still alive?
	Well, some of them are alive.
	Buzz Aldrin was one of them, and Eugene Krantz, the flight director, he's one of the people on the list.
	You had an encounter with Buzz Aldrin, which, you know, I think everybody's seen it's been replaying online this last week.
	You know, it's been rolled out an awful lot.
	I've seen it on several websites very recently, where you went and I won't say that you harassed Buzz Aldrin, but you were very forthright with him and you accused him of not telling the truth, of being part of a cover-up and all the rest of it.
	Here is a man who is seen by most people in this world as an American hero, and you pushed him so hard, and you were so close to him, and you were asking him to swear on the Bible that it was all a sack of nonsense, that you were so close to him that he hit you.
	And I've got people here texting into me saying he did exactly the right thing.
	You were asking for that.
	Well, people used to think Benedict Arnold was a hero, too.
	He was one of the greatest generals of the Revolutionary War.
	And at the very end of it, he ended up being a traitor.
	Now, if you tried to tell people who didn't know about his spying and the clandestine things he was doing, they would probably punch you for calling him a traitor when, in fact, he was.
	You know, if I walked on the moon and someone thought otherwise, I would find that hysterically funny.
	I'd swear on a stack of Bibles.
	But he acted like I went up to him in front of his wife and asked, how's your girlfriend?
	But why did he react?
	What I think a lot of people don't get, and what I found difficult when I was watching it, is it's one thing to confront him perhaps at a speaking event or a place where he's taking open questions, which I know you've also done.
	But to confront him, I mean, it's a long time ago now, I know this, but, you know, to confront him in that way, do you honestly think that was fair?
	Well, that's like saying, and I don't know if this is true, if O.J. Simpson was whether or not it's right to call an elderly gentleman a liar, coward, or thief, even though that would be true.
	I would probably do that differently.
	Number one, he would deny that.
	Everybody at NASA would deny that.
	Scientists around the world would deny it.
	And it seems that one of the very few people in this world who's actually saying that and persisting in saying that is you.
	Don't you feel very lonely in the stand that you're taking?
	Isn't it a very isolated position?
	One out of four Americans knows that the moon landings are fake.
	Half of Europe knows that the moon landings are fake.
	Practically all of Asia knows that the moon landings are fake.
	You know, whoever believes that the moon landings are real, they only believe that out of emotional tying.
	Like I said, if I told you Toyota built a car that could go 50,000 miles on a gallon of gasoline or a thousand times farther 50 years ago than they can today, you would see it as a fraud.
	That's exactly what they're claiming.
	They're claiming they went a thousand times farther than they can go today, 50 years ago on the first attempt with 50 years older technology.
	That is unrepeatable, and that's never happened in the history of the world.
	And people weren't so tied into their emotions.
	The U.S. president and others have said we're going to repeat it.
	In fact, we're going to repeat it within five years, I believe.
	We're going to put a man and a woman on the move.
	10 times.
	Howard, they said that 10 times in the last 50 years, every five years.
	I'd like to talk with you longer at some point, perhaps on my podcast, but we're going to wrap this for now.
	I'll just ask you this, and I've got loads of listeners putting all kinds of points.
	One of them by Graham is that, you know, if it was a hoax, they'd only have done it once, not six times.
	It's a point you have to take on board.
	However, if we get back there in five years from now, and there are ways that, you know, will give us perhaps more proof, you know, we've had plenty of proof already, but say there's more proof then, which there will be because science has evolved.
	What will you do then?
	Will you go away?
	Well, you're saying something.
	I mean, I got an email from you guys saying don't say something libelous, which is actually going to be slammed.
	And what you're saying is...
	In broadcasting, it's libel, but let's leave that a, you know, but you're telling, but all I'm pointing out to you, Howard, is that you're telling people, millions of people listening, that there's all this scientific proof that the moonlighting is real, and there's not.
	I've got this audio.
	Let me play you audio of the CIA prompting the astronauts.
	It'll take five seconds.
	Listen to this.
	Oh, Apollo 11.
	Houston telephone says that the TV looks great.
	What's that meant to be telling us, Bart?
	Okay, you just heard the CIA prompt Neil Armstrong with talk because he's still in Earth orbit.
	They're creating a fake radio delay as if he's halfway to the moon and back, two seconds out and two seconds back.
	We have a third track of audio.
	We have an unedited tape.
	Just go to sibrel s-ib-re-e-l.com and you'll see it.
	We have proof on camera of them faking being halfway to the moon.
	This is why I insisted that you watch this segment because I can tell that you're sincere.
	I have no argument with you personally, but you are sincerely wrong.
	I agree.
	But there were a few things you say on your wrist.
	One of the things you say on your website, and unfortunately, I've got to get to commercials, but one of the things you say on your website is that the media is easily led and all says the same things all the time.
	They sing from the same hymn sheet, and you play a clip of, I think, 20 or maybe 25 newscasters all saying exactly the same words as if they were coming straight from their mouths.
	Now, because I worked in news for 20 years, I can tell you that the reason for that is that those items that they were speaking were written by one central news desk and sent out to lots of affiliates.
	It wasn't, you know, it wasn't the conspiracy you claim it to be.
	Well, actually, it was because you look in the bottom right-hand corner, it says CBS, NBC, ABC, and Fox.
	That's four networks.
	Four allegedly independent.
	Arguably, that was generally.
	I mean, I can't get into a discussion about generalism, but that was not a conspiracy.
	That was just perhaps somebody being a little lazy and retelling the words, and it does happen.
	And you don't think people are lazy about everything?
	I mean, come on.
	I've had people review my film.
	USA Today did an article on the review of my film.
	Did they say you were right?
	They didn't even watch my movie.
	They wrote a review of my film without watching the movie.
	There's like been four or five major national publications who have done that.
	There have been five articles in the past week talking about me, talking about my film.
	Okay.
	And They never even called me up for an interview like you did.
	I mean, you're the most professional of the bunch.
	Congratulations.
	We thank you.
	We have to park it there.
	I'll just put one final point to you.
	Andy in Malaysia says, sorry, Malinsey, Malaysia, where'd I get that from?
	Andy says, NASA left a mirror on the moon to bounce lasers off for measurements.
	How are you suggesting it got there?
	Was it teleported?
	Well, according to Scientific American magazine of 1958, they were bouncing lasers off the moon in 1958 off of reflective services.
	So they just picked an alleged landing spot with those reflective services that claim there were man-made equipment on there, which the Soviet Union left with an unmanned probe two years later.
	Your thoughts as ever, welcome.
	Go to my website, theunexplained.tv, and you can let me know from there, Bart Cebrel.
	And before that, the internationally famous Nick Groff, of whom we will hear much more in the future, I am sure.
	Thank you very much for being part of this.
	My name is Howard Hughes.
	This has been The Unexplained Online.
	More great guests to come in the pipeline.
	So until next we meet here, please stay safe.
	Please stay calm.
	And above all, please stay in touch.
	Don't get too hot.
	Take care.
	Thanks very much.

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