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Aug. 18, 2018 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:09:41

Edition 358 - Guy McCort

The story of a real-life multi-generational, blood-curdling haunting of a house in Americaand the man who still lives in that house...

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	Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes.
	This is the Return of the Unexplained.
	This edition being recorded, still in the middle of this seemingly never-ending heat wave in the UK, incredibly hot.
	I'm recording this in what feels like a sauna.
	So if there are any discrepancies in this show, that might possibly explain some of them.
	I'm going to keep this introduction really short.
	We have one of the most extraordinary stories I think we've ever told on this edition.
	Guy McCourt is somebody who's been featured by various shows, and it was high time that I spoke with him about what's happened to him in the house that he and his family before him have inhabited for decades.
	A chilling, remarkable, stunning story that I can't even begin to encapsulate here.
	So we'll get to Guy McCourt in the United States, and he will tell you this story coming soon.
	As usual, thank you very much for your emails.
	Please keep them coming.
	If you can make a donation to this show, as well as letting me know what you think of it and how you want it improving and who you'd like to hear on it, go to my website, theunexplained.tv.
	Designed and created by Adam from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
	You can do all of those things there.
	I'm not going to say anything more about this story.
	It is a story of a haunting and some.
	That's about all I can say for now.
	The man behind it, Guy McCourt, and Guy's been listening to this.
	He's online to The Unexplained right now.
	Guy, thank you for coming on.
	Thank you.
	Glad to be here.
	Now, Guy, I believe you're talking to me from Ohio, and that is where the events that we're about to discuss unfolded.
	Is that right?
	Yes, that's right.
	Okay.
	This is going to be a little difficult because there are so many strands to this story, and they are remarkable.
	I don't think I've ever heard a story quite like this.
	But we're talking here about not necessarily a haunting.
	It's more of a way of life.
	It's something that's been with you and generations of your family, and it's all connected to your house, your home, yeah?
	Yes.
	All right.
	All right.
	So I think let's unpick it then first, because you chronicled all of this in the book.
	Before we start, please tell me of the title of the book, just so that listeners can hear that if they want to buy it or see it.
	The title of the book is called The Darkness on Church Street, True Story of a Haunting.
	It's available on Amazon.
	All right.
	And Church Street, in what town was the house located?
	Is the house located?
	Barnesville.
	In Barnesville.
	Okay.
	In Ohio.
	Okay.
	This house was in your family for generations.
	Talk to me about its history.
	Before we get into the paranormality of it, just talk to me about the structure of the house.
	Well, it's been here since, I want to say the 1870s.
	There's a lot of history that happened in this area that predates that.
	Like you said, there is so many layers to this story.
	It's so hard to unfold in a short amount of time.
	And it's amazing, actually, that you've spent a huge chunk of your life unpicking all of this.
	And I want to wind it all the way back to the beginning to be fair to it.
	But it is such a long and convoluted story.
	And for those who are skeptical about paranormal events, I have a feeling it's the kind of story, you know, Guy, that might actually change some people's minds on these things.
	Yes, I agree.
	Okay.
	So when did the house come into your family?
	In the 1940s, my grandma bought it.
	All right.
	And she bought it to rent out.
	And she couldn't keep renters in it.
	Okay.
	Talk to me about why she couldn't keep renters in it then.
	I have a feeling I know.
	She couldn't understand it.
	She was, you know, she was dumbfounded by it.
	She was a strict Christian, so the thought of ghosts and stuff like that never entered her mind.
	And finally, one day she tracked down the family that fled out of here and talked to them.
	And they explained to her why.
	And she, you know, was like, aw, you know, and they was like, no, I'm sorry.
	So with that being said, she was like, okay, well, maybe I'll just have the priest come down and talk, you know, go in the house and see if maybe he can bless or whatever.
	Okay.
	Well, before we ask about that, what sorts of things were happening in that house?
	Not only to those people who fled, but to other people who tried to live in there?
	Well, the one night, they woke up in the middle of the night and they seen their child floating in the air on top of a mantle.
	Like the child was two or three years old and had no idea how he got up on top of the mantle.
	And he was just like, it almost, they said it was almost like he was just tiptoeing on top of the mantle, standing there just with his eyes open, not saying a word.
	And they go and they grab him and bring him down.
	And then other things was happening to that family, too.
	What really made them fled, though, they refused to talk about.
	Right.
	They were just so keen to get out of there that they didn't want to stick around discussing it.
	They just wanted to go.
	Yes.
	Well, I can understand that, too.
	It sounds to me as if it has elements of poltergeist activity.
	I don't know whether in that era people understood that properly.
	I think they did.
	But it sounds to me like some of the classic poltergeist cases that we had over here.
	Yes, very much poltergeist.
	All right, so...
	Which we know now, you know, poltergeist are a little bit more involved than just the word poltergeist.
	I mean, sometimes, and I think this is going to play into your story when we get to it, there is an interaction between whatever it is that's happening there and the people who are within.
	In other words, It's not just a question of phenomena happening in isolation and displaying themselves to people.
	Sometimes it's a case of the phenomena somehow feeding off or being interactive with the people who are there.
	So, if you've got a family with a young child, if you read back in the history of poltergeists and ghosts and paranormality generally, that's quite often a prime candidate for whatever might be there to visit itself.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay, so your grandmother is so concerned she can't let this house out.
	She does what a lot of people might do even today.
	She calls in an exorcist and says, can you sweep this place, you know, cleaner than the vacuum cleaner?
	Yes.
	And he comes in and he starts to do his routine, you know, going through and blessing the place and with holy water and all that stuff.
	And he comes to a certain room.
	Now, what room that was, I don't know because, like I said, they tried to hide a lot of this stuff from me when I was a kid because they didn't want me to be scared by what they knew.
	So they tried to hide a lot of it.
	But he got to a certain room in the house and something scared him so bad, he left.
	What, without a word, did he say, did he give any indication as to what might have happened to him?
	He just said that supposedly there's something more than what he can deal with.
	And he told my grandma that and he left.
	Now, look, this is a serious matter because, you know, your poor grandmother must have had to make some decisions about that place.
	She wants the rental income.
	You don't rent a property out for nothing.
	You know, you need the money, usually, when people do that.
	So if she's landed with a place that you can't rent out, I suppose the only thing to do after that then is to live in it.
	Well, it sat empty for a while, and then she rented it out to somebody else, and they stayed here for a little while, and then they eventually left, not saying anything about anything paranormal.
	And then eventually my dad ends up buying it.
	You've just used the word here.
	I should have asked this at the beginning.
	Are you talking to me now from the house?
	Yes, I am.
	Wow.
	Okay.
	We'll get into all of that.
	I mean, that adds an extra kind of, what's that word, poignancy to the entire thing.
	So the house stays in the family, but within the family, within your mother and your father, there must have been the knowledge that this house has got, you know, has got form, as we say here, has got a history, got a past.
	Absolutely, but my dad didn't want to believe in it.
	He didn't believe in spirit activity or none of that stuff.
	He said that was all mental that's in people's heads and stuff.
	And he didn't want to feed into it.
	And I don't know if that's just because he didn't want to scare us kids, because he knew we were scared because stuff was happening to us when we were children.
	And I really don't know.
	Some of that would be about the kind of man that he was.
	And we've got to remember, you know, what our fathers were like.
	They had to be strong.
	They had to be breadwinners.
	And they had to, even if they had fears of their own, they just couldn't acknowledge them for a whole mess of reasons.
	I'm guessing that's, I've just painted a picture of him, maybe.
	That's absolutely.
	So stuff is happening in the house.
	What sorts of things did you later find out were happening to them?
	We'll talk about what happened to you as a kid that you couldn't rationalize and you weren't getting any answers about.
	But what sort of stuff was happening to them?
	Well, my father was married.
	He had four kids.
	And his wife dies of cancer in the home at the age of 39.
	That's tough.
	Yeah.
	And a lot of things, when that happened, like all that emotion and the emotion with the children, and I think that kicked up the activity again.
	And they was all experiencing different things going on in the middle of the night, like the beds vibrating, seeing apparitions, feeling cold spots.
	The typical paranormal encounters was going on with them.
	Some people's reaction to that would be, you know, I'm going to cut and run whatever I lose financially.
	Even if I'm having to live in a log cabin, it's better than being in the middle of this.
	But they didn't do that.
	No, they didn't do that.
	No, my dad said, this is our house.
	This is where we live.
	And this is where we're going to stay.
	No matter how bad the children got scared, he was adamant in his stance about that.
	All right.
	Now, you're a bunch of kids trying to have a normal childhood there, as kids do.
	How is it affecting you then?
	Because I think from what I've read about your account of this, you had some pretty horrendous experiences, and nobody explained to you at that time what they were.
	But bad things were happening to you.
	Yeah, it started when I was probably around seven or eight years old.
	I would wake up in the middle of the night and my blanket would be gone.
	And I'm like, where's my blanket?
	And there was no heat in some of these rooms.
	So the only thing we would have was a electric blanket.
	And I'd wake up with no blanket freezing.
	And I would walk out looking for a blanket and I'd grab this blanket off the bed out here in another room, go back to bed, wake up next morning.
	And when I wake up, I'd look down and be like, wait, I got my blanket.
	And what, what the heck?
	You know?
	And I never understood it until the next time it happened.
	And the next time it happened, it was trying to yank the blankets out of my hand.
	I was awake.
	I had my hands on the blanket.
	I felt a tug.
	And I was like, what is that?
	And it tugged again.
	So I immediately, logically thinking, okay, it's my dog.
	He's trying to wrap up into the blanket underneath the bed.
	And so I kind of give it a tug and it pulls it clear out of my hand and goes underneath the bed.
	So me not thinking nothing of it, I'm pulling the blanket up out under the bed piece by piece.
	And then all of a sudden, hear my dog coming up the steps because he had this little bell on as it jingled as he would come up the steps.
	And I'm just like, okay.
	So then I went and got my sister.
	And this is where it gets weird because she was experiencing things too.
	But I didn't believe her because I didn't have nothing going on at that time until that happened.
	And then she comes and wakes me up and says the same thing's happening to her in her bed.
	So I go lay down in her bed to kind of calm her down a little bit.
	And I start to fall asleep and it happens again in her bed is janking on the blankets.
	By this time, we just take off running down the stairs and sleep on the couch.
	That was the beginning of it, but it started to get a lot worse as time went on.
	And as kids, presumably you knew something strange was happening.
	Did you know anything about ghosts or paranormal activity?
	Had you read ghost stories?
	Had you been told ghost stories?
	Was it something you were prepared for?
	No, I've never heard of ghost stories or none of that stuff.
	I mean, like, sometimes in the media, they would talk about ghost stories or whatever, but I didn't understand what it was or what it really meant.
	Doesn't sound to me like your dad was the kind of person you could go and talk with about this.
	Am I right?
	You're right.
	Yeah.
	So you and your sister kids are having to keep not quiet about it, but just downplay it until, of course, it decides to up the auntie and the activity gets worse, yeah?
	Yes.
	And it did get worse.
	And what happened?
	Well, it started one night.
	We was up here in the bed, started bouncing from leg to leg, bouncing.
	And it's like levitating, coming back down, slamming off the ground, bouncing leg to leg.
	And we are screaming, screaming and crying.
	My older sister from my dad's first marriage, which was, you know, 17 at this time or something, comes running into the bedroom and sees the bed doing this.
	And she jumps on the bed, trying to hold it down, and it's doing it with her on top of it, too.
	And she starts screaming.
	And the next thing I know, my dad comes running up the steps.
	And as soon as he opens the door, it quits.
	Okay.
	So did you, I mean, your sister was screaming.
	It sounds really scary.
	But it almost sounds like whatever was doing this was trying to play with you, was teasing you at the time, and was gradually racking up the severity of it.
	Yes.
	Yes, they were.
	And what, when, you know, I've never experienced anything quite like that.
	I've had some weird experiences, but nothing like that.
	You know, how did that feel?
	What was the atmosphere in the room?
	What was the energy like that was apparently making this happen?
	You know, what was the general sense of it?
	Well, the room definitely got cold right before it happened.
	But when it started happening, it was complete pandemonium.
	It was, you know, we was scared, screaming.
	We didn't know what was going on.
	Like, you know, and when my sister comes in there and jumps on the bed trying to hold it down and it's scaring her and she's crying and screaming, you know, and then we really start reacting out to that.
	And yeah, it was just, it's kind of hard to talk about sometimes because your mind goes back to that point in time and it almost goes into that frantic state.
	And look, it doesn't matter whether you're nine or you're 90, your brain is going to be saying this can't really be happening.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And that's, we was in awe of it because I'm like, how can this be happening?
	What's making this happen?
	Was it something that was happening in silence to you?
	Or was there some noise associated with this?
	Or was there an absence of noise?
	Did it go like a vacuum?
	Some people report that.
	There was a weird noise, a weird noise.
	It almost sounded like a almost like imagine an old wooden spool on a wooden floor moving back and forth, making like a clunkiny noise.
	There was that type of noise, like a loud wood-on-wood noise.
	It wasn't the bedpost hitting the floor.
	It was some weird noise involved within it, too.
	And I don't know what that was.
	Now, you know what?
	Kids are like.
	And I think kids, it doesn't matter what side of the Atlantic you're on, they're much the same.
	I had a big sister.
	If anything happened that we couldn't explain, she'd blame me and I'd blame her.
	Was it like that for you?
	Yes.
	We got in trouble a lot because she was trying to blame me for stealing her blanket or when things would come up missing, she would try to blame me and I'd be like, I didn't do it.
	You know, I'm like, why would I want your toys or something?
	And the same thing for me.
	Like, sometimes I'd have things come up missing and I'd ask her and she'd be like, no.
	And I'm just like, come on, don't lie to me.
	And she'd be like, I'm telling you the truth.
	So it all sounds like it's teasing you, but the teasing is getting more serious all the time.
	Apart from having things go missing, did you have anything appear?
	You know, they call, we now know, they call those apports.
	Did you have anything appear?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	We had a letter appear out of thin air one day.
	Right.
	And that letter, I think, plays into our story.
	So we'll probably tell that part of it a little later.
	If I've read the account of this, this is the letter that indicates a chilling part of the history of that house.
	If that's right, tell me.
	No, this is actually a different.
	Okay, so what was the letter?
	Then a letter appears from nowhere.
	I mean, talk about special delivery.
	What was in the letter?
	The letter had random words and none of them made sense.
	Just random words next to each other, just incoherent babble.
	And what about the appearance of it, the paper and stuff?
	Was it contemporary?
	Was it modern as far as you could see?
	Was it something that appeared to come from a different era, perhaps written by a fountain pen rather than a ballpoint?
	You know, I was really too young to pay attention to that.
	It looked modern to me, but it could have been older or written with a fountain pen.
	But to me, as a young kid, it looked modern.
	And you say letter.
	I'm presuming it's just a sheet of paper with writing on it.
	It's not in an envelope, is it?
	No, not in an envelope.
	Nope.
	And it just appeared.
	And I suppose, again, as kids, you're saying, did you do that?
	No, I didn't do that.
	You must have done that.
	I didn't.
	Yes, you did.
	No, you didn't.
	Yeah?
	Yes, exactly.
	Exactly.
	Because I thought she was playing a prank on me.
	So did there come a tipping point then where the pair of you realized, we've got to tell somebody about this.
	This is getting more than we can handle?
	Was there something that pushed you both over the edge?
	Yeah.
	One day she was giving the dog a bath in the bathtub and she yells for dad and he's like, what?
	She's like, will you tell Dave to quit messing with me?
	Which Dave was our nephew, which was only a couple years younger than us because of the mismatched age.
	Because like I said, my dad had a family of four and his wife died.
	Then he met my mom and had me and my sister.
	So you're melding two families in a way, yeah.
	And he comes in there and it's like, what are you talking about?
	She's like, Dave, he keeps peeking around the corner.
	And he's like, Arlene, Dave's in Bellesville.
	They don't come until the weekend.
	You know that.
	And she's like, oh, wait.
	Then she kind of goes into like freak mode.
	She's like, I seen something.
	She's like, I thought it was Dave.
	And then, you know, by this time, I believe her.
	I believed her because everything we've experienced.
	I think it's the kind of thing, you know, once it gets to that stage that as a brother and sister, it probably can bring you together.
	Yes, it did.
	All right.
	And how are you, you know, you're trying to be kids there.
	I mean, just remind me of your ages at that point.
	At that point, we was probably 12, 13 years old by that point.
	All right.
	So, you know, you should be enjoying yourselves and preparing for your studies that are to come and all the rest of it.
	You shouldn't be having this compartment in your mind that is a compartment of terror, which I presume, unless you were really strong kids or really didn't understand it, you must have had.
	Yeah, we were scared.
	I mean, there was no doubt about that.
	Many a night, we would sneak downstairs and sleep on the couch.
	It was that bad.
	It was that bad.
	And you've already said your dad's not really listening, and your mom, as was then, what was she saying?
	Well, at that time, they done got divorced by that time, and she was living somewhere else.
	Right.
	Was it the activity?
	Was it the house that split them up, do we think?
	Yeah.
	She told me years later when I was an adult that, you know, what was going on, that was happening there scared her too much.
	And he refused to sell the house.
	And it's pretty much the reason they split.
	Sounds to me that whatever is there in that house, and we sort of hinted at this at the beginning, didn't we, was in some way feeding off the energy.
	You know, the more scared you get, the more active it gets.
	And the more fractious, the more fragmented the family becomes till eventually your mum and dad split, and it's partly because of their house, and you're in fear.
	I mean, it sounds like, well, I'm sorry.
	I'm really, it sounds like not a good childhood.
	I mean, don't get me wrong.
	My dad did really well for us, the best we could.
	You know, we didn't really want for nothing.
	But yeah, I was sick a lot as a child, too.
	And with all that on top of it, it just really kind of, it was.
	It was a very, it just felt like a very dull existence because this stuff shouldn't have been happening.
	And in the meantime, you are stuck by then without a mother figure in a house that you know you can't sell or move out of, in a situation where something is happening that you don't understand.
	You know, I mean, how many negatives have I just outlined?
	At least three?
	Yes, yes.
	So what happens then?
	Well, as time goes on and my dad passes away and I inherit the house and I'm living here by myself because everybody left.
	Like my dad was the patriarch of the family.
	And when he died, it kind of split the family up.
	As so often happens in families everywhere.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And the paranormal activity in this area seemed to ramp up during that time.
	And I was having, Hanging out all the time.
	I was having parties, inviting people over just so I wouldn't be here alone, you know?
	Because I didn't want to be here alone.
	Okay, what year is this, and how old are you?
	I am by this time, I'm 21 years old.
	This was probably, I'm trying to think, not sure the exact year.
	I just know that at that time, I'm here by myself.
	Well, what decade is it?
	Just so people can get a handle.
	I want to say late 90s.
	Okay.
	And you're inviting your friends over, like young people do.
	And does whatever is there, whatever you think is there, does it manifest itself?
	Does it play ball and give you nice peaceful parties?
	Or does it start disrupting them?
	It starts disrupting them, too.
	They was all experiencing it.
	And I guess it's very hard to explain to your friends.
	Well, you know, as a matter of fact, we've lived with this for years.
	It's been in the family and this place is a bit haunted.
	But don't worry about it.
	Have some more peanuts and, you know, have another beer.
	Yeah, pretty much.
	God.
	I mean, we can laugh about it, but it's serious stuff.
	So some of those people from outside, did they continue to be your friend when they were being harassed by some presence within the house?
	Or did they say, you know, did they tar you with the brush of, well, this guy must be a bit weird because he lives in a weird place?
	No, actually, a lot of them were skeptic when they first come here and had experiences of their own that really changed their mind.
	And actually, it kind of brought us together a little bit and became closer friends because I'm like, hey, you know, you know, like, because I would tell them stories sometimes of what was happening to me.
	And they'd be like, oh, that stuff ain't true.
	That stuff don't happen.
	And then when it would happen to them, they'd be like, oh, my God, God, how have you lived here?
	You know, and how have you dealt with all this stuff?
	You know, and he's like, I don't know what to do.
	I'm scared to death now, you know, because what they experienced.
	Well, thank God somebody was sympathizing and understanding what you've been through.
	What sorts of things happened to them then?
	Well, my one friend, Craig, he was having a rough time.
	He didn't have no place to stay.
	So I decided to let him stay here for a few weeks, pay rent until he got on his feet.
	And he was the one that was a skeptic.
	And one day he goes down to the basement.
	And at that time, I had a wood burner down there.
	I didn't have a furnace yet.
	We had one that just wasn't hooked up yet.
	And we was just having a fire all the time to keep the house warm.
	Well, he would always go downstairs to stoke the fire and get it ready.
	Well, one day he comes up out of them stairs and he's kind of in a fast pace.
	And he comes and sits down in a chair and pulls the hat over his face and just shakes his head.
	Completely, completely just flabbergasted.
	And I'm like, dude, what's wrong?
	He's like, nothing.
	I'm like, what's wrong, man?
	He's like, nothing.
	I'm like, you seen something, didn't you?
	He's like, nope.
	I'm like, come on, man.
	You seen something.
	And he was like, all right.
	And he comes up and his eyes is as big as round as dollar pieces.
	And he's like, I seen a little boy down there peeking around the corner, giggling at me.
	And he ran to the other side, peeked around, giggled, and stood there and was giggling at me.
	And I'm like, what?
	I said, explaining.
	And he said, old-style clothes, looks like he had knickers on, white, dirty white shirt with some suspenders on, and that little white hat looked like dark hair.
	And I said, oh my God, you're explaining the exact same thing my sister seen, you know?
	And he's like, he's like, like he was completely, I'm not even sure the word I'm looking for besides flabric acid, but he was in awe because it shook his whole world.
	I mean, God, it sounds like something from Scooby-Doo, but this is serious.
	Yes.
	Did he come back after that?
	Did he return?
	Yes, he did return, but he had a bedroom upstairs to sleep in, and he refused to sleep in it.
	And he would sleep on the couch.
	And I would sleep on the other couch because I didn't sleep in none of the bedrooms either.
	It's the 1990s.
	I'm sorry I interrupted that.
	I'm going to forget this point if I don't make it, so forgive me for this.
	But, you know, it's the 1990s.
	People are a little more understanding of these things, a little more willing to talk about them then.
	Did you consider consulting somebody about this?
	Perhaps going back to an exorcist, getting some advice, reading something about it?
	Not at that point, but a little bit into the future, I did.
	After the real, real wild stuff happened, I did.
	And that didn't happen until after we found the letter in the basement.
	Right.
	This isn't the, this is a different letter.
	Now, this is the one you know about that ties to the history of the home.
	Right, okay.
	Because this place has a bit of a history.
	Just before we tell that story, because there's a lot to talk about there, there were other things, according to what I've read, that were happening there.
	Wasn't there a television set that turned itself on and a phone that rang and there was somebody on the other end of the phone, or have I got that wrong?
	No, you got that right.
	And that happened the night we found the stuff in the basement.
	And the TV turned itself on?
	Well, that's what we think it was.
	That's what it sounded like.
	It sounded like a TV.
	But let me rewind that a little bit.
	We always had this spot in the basement, and it had a little weird square out in the basement.
	Like there was part of the basement missing.
	It was a block built out.
	And after my, you know, my brother-in-law was like, we should go down there, knock that out, and see what's behind there, you know?
	And I'm like, let's do it.
	So we go down there and we knock that block out.
	Now, mind you, this house is old as dirt almost.
	And we decide to block his block out.
	And when we do, we notice something back in the block because it was ceramic tube block.
	And we pull it out and it's a jar.
	And in this jar, it's a jar.
	And in this jar is a letter.
	And it was written to Eva Roby.
	1942.
	And it had a stamp on it that said, win the war.
	And we opened it up and it was like a jealous love letter.
	And I'm like, okay, 1942.
	Obviously, this house was built before 1942.
	The block looked exactly like the rest of the block.
	We was dumbfounded by how it got in there.
	So anyways, we tear it down and find a room.
	It's about 12 by 12 behind here.
	And it's filled with dirt.
	And we start digging in the dirt.
	And we start digging it out.
	And I'm like, we might as well clear it out.
	I'll have extra room for storage and stuff.
	So we're clearing it out.
	And they get down about three feet or so of dirt.
	And all of a sudden, we find something.
	One of the brother-in-law and the friend that was helping me dig it out, he was up in there digging.
	And he's like, I found something.
	I was like, what'd you find?
	And he starts to pull up this clothing.
	It turns out it was a black dress.
	And when he pulls up the black dress, bones fall out of it.
	And I'm like, what?
	He's like, there's something over here too.
	And he starts digging over there and he pulls it up and it's a black pair of pants.
	It looks like they'd fit a big guy.
	And then we find another pair of pants.
	It looks like they'd fit a little boy.
	And there was bones all around them.
	So presumably, I mean, did you call the cops at that point?
	At that point, no, because within an hour, we was having a Christmas get together.
	Okay.
	Now that's, if you went ahead with that, that's bizarre.
	I mean, I guess you had people invited and things, but, you know, that must have been, to say the least, it must have been on your mind.
	Yes, it was on my mind.
	And because we didn't know what to think.
	We didn't know if it was pets.
	You know, I'm not an anthropologist.
	I didn't know if it was animal or if it was human.
	So there was nothing to indicate from the bones what they might have been?
	There was nothing clearly that was like a...
	You know when you find those things, but these were in a state that you couldn't identify them.
	Right.
	They was very, very old.
	A lot of them looked like they was broke or cut or something.
	And it was so weird.
	Well, weirdness is not the word.
	Okay, so did you stop digging then?
	Presumably you did because you had to go and have your Christmas party.
	Yes, we stopped digging and I looked at them guys.
	I said, look, let's leave this alone.
	Let's have the party.
	And I'll call somebody tomorrow to see to find out what's going on.
	You know, I'll call the authorities tomorrow and find out what this is.
	I mean, if it's Christmas, even if you had called the authorities on Christmas Day, I'm not sure what anybody could have done about that until afterwards.
	So I guess it's kind of understandable that you went ahead with everything and then presumably you called them the next day, did you?
	Yeah, but that night is when it all broke loose.
	See, we have the party.
	There's some family, friends here.
	There's probably maybe 20, 20, 30 people here.
	We're all just hanging out.
	And all of a sudden, it sounds like the TV goes full blast.
	It almost sounds like the TV is made of amplifiers.
	It sounded like the whole house was made of amplifiers, actually.
	It was the weirdest thing in the world.
	And at the time, my girlfriend had two kids.
	One was five and one was two, was up here sleeping.
	And we had a TV up here, a full floor bottle TV that only had seven and nine.
	No cable.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Just the free channels, whatever.
	Yeah, whatever you can get on the antenna.
	Right.
	And we would have that for them so they could have a nightlight.
	And we hear, first, the older boy comes downstairs.
	It's like, the bad man's upstairs.
	The bad man's upstairs.
	I'm scared for my brother Johnny.
	I'm scared for my brother Johnny.
	And we're like, hey, buddy, you're just having a nightmare.
	Why don't you just go in there and lay down on my bed and go to sleep?
	Okay, we'll go check on Johnny to make sure he's okay.
	So he does, and we come upstairs, and Johnny's sleeping.
	Everything's fine.
	We go back downstairs.
	And then all of a sudden, full blast at TV.
	It sounds like it's a TV.
	But here's the thing, there's cuss words.
	And at this time, there was no cuss words on like seven and nine.
	You know what I'm saying?
	It wasn't cable.
	And so it's full blast and it sounds like a phone ringing, like an old 1940s phone ringing.
	And then there's like this woman and she's like, hello, hello, who is this?
	Who is this?
	And then it flips the channels to like this static sound and station and it sounds like a preacher and it sounds like he's preaching about necromancy and messing with the dead.
	And then it flips back to this phone ringing.
	Hello, hello, who is this?
	And everybody who's there is experiencing this.
	Oh, they're all hearing it.
	And they're all looking around and looking at me like, what is going on, guy?
	And I'm like, I don't know, you know?
	And then all of a sudden, it's like, you're all going to die down there.
	And then it flipped back to this static, weird noises, growling and weird noises.
	And by that time, somebody's like, let's go get that boy because he starts to cry by this point.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Because it sounds like the sound is coming from upstairs.
	And you're sure that nobody you got there then is, we say over here, having a laugh, is having a joke?
	Yeah, no, because I was scanning the rooms.
	I could look at everybody's faces and I could see the look on their faces.
	No, they was petrified.
	They was like, they was freaking out.
	And so my brother-in-law and my friend Craig, who was staying here at the time, decided to go upstairs and get the boy.
	Well, as they start to get up the stairs, I'm sorry, my cousin and my friend, not my brother-in-law, decide to come up the stairs to get the boy.
	They seen something at the top of the steps.
	And when, as they're, I could hear them going up the steps.
	And all of a sudden, it sounded like the most deepest, darkest voice you can imagine.
	Stay the F out of there.
	Like in this deep voice, and it echoed through the whole house.
	Like, I remember looking back and seeing a guy's hat getting blowed off his head.
	Like, that's how loud the percussion was from it.
	And the next thing I know, I hear, it's them guys running down the steps, and they're running through my kitchen, pushing each other out of the way to get out of the house.
	And they go out the door.
	They leave their jackets.
	It's wintertime.
	They left their jackets.
	They didn't even stop to get their jackets.
	Geez, I'd be with them.
	I have to tell you.
	What were you doing at this time?
	Because look, you're at least primed for it because it's been part of your experience all your life, but not to that extent.
	What are you doing then?
	At that time, I'm like, I look at my brother-in-law and I'm like, hey, look, we got to go get that boy.
	We got to go get the, you know, we got to go get him.
	He's like, you're right.
	I was like, we got to go get him.
	No matter what, we have to.
	So we decide to run through the kitchen.
	We start going up the stairs and we had like a blanket hanging there in the stairwell.
	And there was this weird green glow around the blanket.
	And he's in front of me and he looks back at me.
	He's like, what is that?
	And I'm like, I have no idea.
	And I'm kind of pushing him because Johnny's crying by this time, you know?
	And I kind of push him.
	And as he pulls the blanket back, that green, the whole upstairs was lit up green and it just dissipates into the TV.
	And he grabs Johnny and I go over to the TV and look and it's not even plugged in.
	And I'm like, I'm holding a cord in my hand looking at him.
	He's like, he just shakes his head and we run downstairs.
	And as we do, I notice my basement door open.
	And I'm like, what?
	Why is that door open?
	And I look and there's those black pair of pants that we found in that basement sitting on the stoop of the stairs.
	And immediately I got mad because by this time I'm like, okay, somebody's playing a trick.
	You know, by that time, I'm mad because I thought it was my nephew playing a trick on me.
	And I immediately went to him like, hey, man, you think that's funny?
	You think that's funny?
	Like, I kind of pushed him a little bit.
	Like, hey, you think that's funny?
	That's not funny, man.
	You know?
	And that's back to what was happening between you and your sister when you were kids.
	You start to blame whoever's closest.
	Right.
	And everybody's like, God, guy, nobody's moved.
	Nobody's moved.
	We've been standing in this dining room.
	We're too scared to move.
	Nobody's moved.
	And I'm like, well, somebody grabbed them pants out of the basement.
	I said, they just didn't get up here and crawl up here by themselves.
	And everybody swore.
	It's like, hey, we watched him.
	He didn't move.
	None of us moved.
	But everybody else fled out the house.
	The ones that remained was close friends and family and they stayed.
	And it was like, everybody else has fled out the door, you know?
	And I'm just like, oh, man.
	So after this, there's more.
	Is there more of this?
	Wow.
	Well, that night, I go to bed and I hear this weird screeching noise.
	Sounds like a screech owl or something.
	I don't know what it was.
	And I get up and I see this weird reddish apparition in my kitchen in the dark.
	And I'm rubbing my eyes to try to see it.
	And it's standing there just looking at me.
	And it's this reddish tint.
	And as I'm rubbing my eyes so I can like focus in on it because I just got woken up in the middle of the night.
	As I focus in on it, it dissipates right in front of my eyes like in a puff of cloud of smoke and it's gone.
	And I'm like, wow, okay.
	And I go back to bed.
	And then the next morning is when I decide to contact somebody.
	Right.
	And presumably after the discovery in the basement, was that the police?
	Local sheriff?
	Yes, a local sheriff that was a friend of my mom's.
	Because at this time, I didn't know what was going to happen.
	You know, I'm like, am I going to get in trouble?
	Am I, you know, are they going, you know?
	So I contacted my mom and told her everything.
	And she contacted her friend, which was a sheriff.
	And he come down off duty and talked to me.
	And he said, he said, guy, your life's never going to be the same if this gets reported.
	And I said, what do you mean?
	He said, your life's never going to be the same.
	He said, for the next six months, he said, you're going to have people coming in and out of your house every day.
	Yeah, forensics, everything.
	Everything.
	He said, you're going to be in the media.
	People are going to be calling you a murderer, the whole nine yards.
	And he looks at the bones and he says, I really can't tell What they are.
	He says to me, he says, we get calls every day about people finding bones in their backyard.
	And he said, 99% of the time it turns out to be animal.
	And he said, it kind of looks animal to me.
	But this was bones and clothing.
	And clothing.
	I know.
	I know.
	And I told him that.
	And he said, unless you want your world turned upside down, he said, I would just cover it back up.
	Now, look, I have very skeptical listeners.
	This is an amazing story.
	And I'm letting you tell it because you tell it well.
	But I have listeners who will say this couldn't possibly have happened in the way that you're telling it.
	And this is just a story.
	What do you have to say to them?
	Well, you know, that's their opinion.
	They didn't live through it.
	So, am I from here, is what I'm supposed to infer that the guy comes and says, if I were you, because in nine cases out of ten, they're animal bones, and if we go and report this and go through the official channels, your life will never be the same again, that you decide not to do anything about it.
	Is that so?
	That's so.
	I decided to, and I regretted that because I knew deep down inside that it probably wasn't animal bones.
	But at the same time, after what happened the night before, you know, well, I don't think he came the next day.
	He came a couple days after that.
	And what happened, you know, I'm just like, this is too much.
	I can't take this.
	I can't live like this.
	You know, this constant state of panic.
	I can understand that.
	What did you do with the room underneath then that contained these horrors?
	Your intention was to clear it out.
	I left it.
	I covered it all back up and I bricked it back up.
	Okay.
	Now, this is a difficult situation because I don't know if the law is different, but if this was this country, what you're telling me about, and you've written about it and you're talking about it, this is potentially a crime scene.
	And even if it was decades ago, the police and the authorities would still be interested in this now.
	And that's a good point because now we're filming a documentary and we're going to go in there and we're going to dig it out.
	I have an anthropologist and she has a forensic team and they're going to go in there and they're going to look at it.
	And then if they figure out it is human, we're going to call the authorities.
	Okay.
	Do you not think, I mean, look, again, I'm looking at it from this side of the Atlantic that you maybe ought to be doing all of this in collaboration with the authorities.
	Or maybe they know anyway, do they?
	Oh, yeah, they know because I've, like I said, he told his whole squad, and they've come up to me and talked to me about it before and stuff, you know, and said that, you know, I didn't do the right thing.
	I should have.
	Again, I'm 22 years old.
	I've been sheltered most of my life by my father.
	He just passed away.
	I'm going through the grief of that.
	Yeah, so you're quite naturally wanting it all to go away.
	So you're saying that there's a record of this somewhere, but it's been noted down as being something that is potentially nothing.
	But there is a record of it somewhere.
	And when the documentary is made, if the anthropologists say that these bones are maybe human bones, then you're going to escalate it because you have to.
	Because I have to.
	Yep.
	God.
	Okay.
	Well, I mean, that is an astonishing story.
	And I'm accepting what you say.
	It sounds unlikely, and it will sound unlikely to a lot of people, but, you know, those people are not where you are.
	They're not in your situation.
	So none of us can really comment because we're not where you are, but it sounds unlikely.
	In the meantime, you did some investigation, I think, or some information came to you about the past of that house and a suggestion that somebody who'd lived in that house before had maybe had a murky past, we would call it.
	Yes.
	So after all that happened, I started to go into research mode to find out what is going on with this home.
	So through 15 years of research and traveling around and researching, I finally, I think, I've pieced together some of the puzzle of what this house is.
	And you're exactly right.
	I found a guy that had a murky past.
	I found out during 1906 or 2007 to 1912 or 13, a man owned this home, and his name was W.H. Perkins.
	I could not find no records on him.
	Nothing bad.
	You know what I'm saying?
	It just seemed like he was an ordinary family man.
	Well, one day, I'm up here where we're remodeling.
	I have the floor ripped up.
	I find a letter in the floor.
	The letter in the floor is from 1909 by the B ⁇ O Railroad Company to a W.H. Gibbs saying how they don't understand why he will not take the supervisor position because he'll be in a building, he'll no longer be on the road.
	That's what the letter was pretty much saying, like how they don't know why he didn't take the supervisor.
	So there was something about Mr. Perkins that wanted to be traveling?
	Well, that's the thing.
	See, Mr. Perkins, I couldn't find no job information for Perkins.
	But now I found a letter for a W.H. Gibbs, which happened to Be the same year that a W.H. Perkins lived here.
	So I started doing research on a W.H. Gibbs, and I found out that he's a well-known serial killer throughout the East from Ohio, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts.
	Like, whenever that railroad for the BNO went east, I don't know exactly where it went.
	I do know from Maryland over.
	I'm not sure.
	But Pennsylvania and Maryland was where I did a lot of my search.
	He was a well-known serial killer, and nobody knew who he was.
	They could not find no information.
	So hold on.
	The fact that we know that this was a W.H. Gibbs and you were reading about him, presumably he was apprehended eventually, was he?
	No.
	No.
	Right, so there was a manhunt for this person.
	Right.
	And it was not at that time, though.
	There was a manhunt for somebody, but they didn't know who he was.
	It was kind of like the ripper.
	You know, and it was from town to town to town.
	It wasn't until his descendants put together the pieces.
	His descendants are the ones that put together the pieces.
	And I started, through my research, I found out some of his descendants and decided to contact him.
	And they told me the story of when he was out on the railroad, he would send home his wife and his kids, a postcard from every town he stopped at.
	Well, when they found out something, they found out something about him.
	And I think that was because he had a cabin.
	And when he died, they tore down the cabin and they found remains in a hidden compartment in the basement.
	Excuse me.
	And that's what made them go into research mode to find out, okay, what's going on?
	Because they knew he built the cabin.
	And they started finding out from every place he sent home a postcard, there was a murder in that town of a young girl.
	And then sometimes, in some of them towns, girls come up missing.
	Okay.
	Then the ones that didn't come up missing, they found dead, was cut up with what was presumed to be an axe or a hatchet or whatever.
	So they had this information.
	So, but they could not find no information on their ancestor, you know, as a Perkins.
	There's not much information as a Perkins.
	But when I found this letter in the floor, I realized his alias was W.H. Gibbs.
	So he traveled.
	He had a job as W.H. Gibbs.
	So when I started researching the Gibbs, a lot of things came to light.
	Like there was other people that was well known of this Gibbs, but they didn't know who he was or, you know.
	So this was almost a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde situation.
	This guy had an alter ego, we think, possibly.
	And that alter ego was out there doing these things.
	The fact that he had a cabin and there were remains found within the cabin and you found something that might be remains in the basement of your home, shouldn't that be causing you to get the cops in right now?
	Yes, it should be.
	It should be.
	And I've only found this information out recently within the last couple years.
	And my thing is, again, I just don't know what to do.
	I'm on the fence about a lot of things because, you know, we've been trying to get this documentary finished.
	We've been trying to, you know, and the guy that's helping me film the documentary is like, we need to film that.
	We need to film going in there and digging it up and finding.
	I mean, the only thing that I could say, and it's not for me to say, but, you know, if, and it's a big if, if all these connections are so, let's leave aside all the paranormality and the stuff that's happened over all of those years.
	It doesn't matter whether somebody died in tragic and crime-ridden circumstances 50 years ago, 60 years ago, 70 years ago.
	It's still something that has to be investigated, would be the way that I would look at it.
	But, you know, that's just me saying that.
	Now, you published a book about this.
	How long's the book been out?
	The book's been out for about four years now.
	Okay, and have you had anybody contacting you saying the things that I've just said on the basis of what you're telling me?
	All the time.
	All the time.
	But you haven't had a knock on the door from the local sheriff's department saying we want to go back across some historic crimes.
	Well, I got a call one day from a sheriff, and I explained to him the same thing I explained to you.
	They're there.
	They're not going nowhere.
	You know, they're not going to be nowhere.
	When we get in here and we get this film crew in here to finish this up, as soon as we uncover them again, because, you know, who knows what's left there after so many years, you know, I said, I'll call you as soon as we uncover it.
	How can you live with that uncertainty?
	It's like a constant to and throw, really.
	And you're actually talking to me now from that house.
	Yes.
	Geez, I mean, I know it's been part of your life, all of your life.
	I don't know on a human level how you can live with that.
	So, look, if what might have happened, and we hope that that's not the story, but if that turns out to be the case and there is a connection with all that paranormal activity, where is that going to leave you?
	That's going to leave you at the center of an investigation that will make the newspapers, of course it will.
	Of course.
	And I think, would think that it would make it impossible for you to continue living there.
	Yes, yes.
	We're actually right now in the because we know and I know that this is going to all come out sooner or later.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I know it's going to come out sooner or later.
	Right now, we are working on trying to find a house to move into because we are going to finish this documentary here within the next couple weeks.
	So within the next couple weeks or so, we'll probably be down in there digging it out, at least somewhat.
	And then the anthropologist, and then they'll get in there with their brushes and stuff and uncover it.
	And you can't go on.
	They would not, in this country anyway, they wouldn't allow you to go on living there anyway.
	No.
	I mean, where I live, where I live, it's very rural.
	You know, our town has a population of like 4,000 people.
	And around us...
	And everybody knows everybody else, I guess.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Tell me you're not making this up.
	Well, here's a good thing.
	Why would I?
	What would I do?
	Well, I suppose that some of my listeners might say to get a book published, to get yourself interviewed, to get your 15 minutes.
	No, I don't care about the 15 minutes.
	If I was going to do that, I would have called the police when we first found the bones.
	In fact, the reason it's taking this long is because I didn't want to be the center of that.
	Well, you know, I hear what you say, and that's a very good point.
	You know, I don't envy the position that you're in.
	One of the things that you say, though, is that the experiences that you've had help you to help other people get through paranormal experiences that are not nice.
	How does that work?
	Well, I guess now I am a, after running from it for so long, I finally had to make a point in my life to where I'm like, I got to accept the fact that this place is haunted.
	There's probably somebody buried down there in the basement.
	And, you know, because like I said, I tried to run from it for so long.
	I didn't want to be a part of it.
	I didn't want to be known as the guy that's haunted.
	Or, you know what I'm saying?
	Because I know the social stigma that comes with that.
	So why write a book then?
	Why write a book four years ago and why do interviews like this?
	Because the camera lenses are turning upon you, metaphorically speaking.
	Because four years ago, I finally come to grips with it.
	I finally come to grips with it and said, you know what?
	People need to know this story.
	It is so bizarre.
	It's so odd.
	It is too much not to be told.
	It is.
	And, you know, it is, I've heard some outlandish stories.
	I've heard some scary stories.
	I've heard some amazing stuff in my years of talking to people, not just doing this show, but just talking to people about these things.
	I don't think I've ever heard anything even approaching this.
	You have a fiancé.
	How does your fiancée cope with this?
	Yeah, she's seen things too, and she's, you know, she copes.
	I, you know, we talk about it when she sees something and when I see something.
	And, you know, and for the most part, like, I almost, I know this is going to be hard to understand, but we both feel that there is some sort of presence here holding us here.
	You're almost like a hostage.
	Almost.
	We almost feel like we're a hostage here sometimes.
	Like, we're drained a lot of times, like, to where we don't even want to get out of bed some days, you know?
	I can think of one very good reason, although I don't want to be making your reasons for you, for why you wouldn't be making this up.
	And that very good reason is that if this is all found out to be a hoax, then you're going to get even more publicity.
	And I'm guessing, you know, nobody would want the kind of attention that you would then get.
	So I'm assuming, just as little me here, and I'm an innocent in England, that you wouldn't want to make this up because of the attention you're going to get if they find out this is all made up.
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	I wouldn't come out, write a book, and go through all this stuff if it was a hoax.
	I'm just, I got better things I can do than that, you know?
	And that's the sad part about society today.
	You're right.
	Everybody does want their 15 minutes of fame or they do things to get their 15 minutes of fame.
	But to me, it wasn't about that.
	It wasn't about fame.
	It wasn't about getting 15 minutes.
	To me, it wasn't about none of that.
	To me, it was about telling this bizarre, strange happenstance that just happened to happen in my life, you know?
	And what sort of media retention have you had?
	I know that you've been on shows like Coast to Coast in America, haven't you?
	But, you know, what kind of mainstream media coverage have you had?
	Some.
	Not a whole lot mainstream media yet.
	I mean, I am getting calls and messages all the time now for stuff.
	But it's, yeah, it's, I've definitely made newspapers.
	I've definitely made my local news, you know.
	Well, if it isn't a hoax guy, you're an ordinary guy in a quite extraordinary situation.
	And, you know, as a human being, I hope it all works out for you.
	Are you planning to write a sequel on this book after the documentary, maybe?
	Yes, because I want to finish the book.
	Because to me, the book is open right now.
	And it's like my life right now.
	I'm living here open, wondering every day what's going to be the outcome of it.
	You know, it's.
	All right.
	So the anthropologists and all those specialists are coming in as part of the documentary.
	When do you think you're going to get the answers that you want and you need?
	I don't know.
	It depends on how long it takes them to do all the testing or whatever, you know, the DNA test, I guess it would be.
	And to find out maybe who they was.
	I have an idea maybe who they are, but it's just speculation until we have the DNA testing.
	Well, like I say, this is extraordinary on a whole variety of levels, and there will be people screaming hoax, hoax, hoax at their devices they're listening to this on now.
	I just don't know how you can continue to live there.
	But as you say, you and your fiancé are kind of trapped by it for the moment.
	Yes, absolutely.
	I wish you all the luck in the world with all of this.
	I can't wait to see what happens next in this.
	And I hope you get some peace of mind at the back end of it.
	Is there anything else you'd like to say at the end of this conversation?
	Yeah, actually, because of my experiences of what's happened in life, I now help other people that's going through the same thing.
	Because after running from it for so many years, I decided to stop running and to help other people that's going through the same thing as like a paranormal investigator.
	I mean, you can give me examples if you want, but just as we wrap this up, what kind of advice can you give to somebody who's in the grip of something that is like a haunting?
	What can you say?
	Because what you did was to just live with it.
	And yeah, and I don't recommend that.
	Don't feed into it.
	Don't feed into it.
	Don't try to contact it.
	Don't be complacent with it.
	Contact somebody immediately because the ignorance of it could be your worst enemy.
	Yes, contact a parapsychologist, a demonologist, a priest, whoever and whatever your situation may be, contact somebody.
	Don't get complacent with it because if you do, it can really, really interfere with your daily life.
	Boy.
	Well, it's a hell of a story.
	I'm recording this in 35 degrees Celsius.
	What's that?
	That's in the 90s of heat as I'm speaking these words.
	So it kind of fits with that in a lot of ways, guy.
	Please let me know what happens next if people want to read about you, want to read about this story, want to know more about the book.
	Do you have a website?
	I haven't actually seen a website of yours, but do you have one?
	I do have a website.
	It's still in the works right now, but at the moment, my book is available on Amazon.
	You can just type in Darkness on Church Street.
	It'll pop up, and you can buy the book now.
	The website will be up in the next few weeks for the documentary and all that stuff.
	And just at the end of this, the very end of this, you know, you're absolutely happy that this is a real story.
	This is not a work of fiction.
	You have not invented this because it sounds so implausible for anybody to have gone through all of this that a lot of people will be saying it's got to be an invention.
	Absolutely not.
	I wish I had that type of imagination.
	Well, gee, look, if that was imagined and made up, you know, that would be one of the greatest Hollywood screenplays since what happened at the Bates Motel, guy.
	I wish you well.
	I wish you peace of mind.
	And let's talk again in a little while and see how this resolves itself.
	And please take care.
	Hey, thank you very much, Howard.
	You too.
	Have a good day.
	I don't blame you if you're skeptical about that story.
	But if that is so, it is an amazing story.
	A remarkable story.
	And I don't even know.
	You know, I'm going to have to sit down, have a cold drink because it's still baking hot where I'm recording this, and have a real contemplate of what I think about all of that.
	Guy McCourt, we'll get him back on here.
	He says it's a true story.
	The book has been out for four years now.
	I'll put a link to probably its Amazon location on my website, theunexplained.tv.
	You tell me what you think of that story.
	He's been featured on various shows in the US and Canada.
	Now he's featured here on The Unexplained with me, Howard Hughes.
	More remarkable guests coming soon here on The Unexplained.
	So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
	I am in London.
	This has been The Unexplained.
	And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, and above all, please stay in touch.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care.

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