Piers Morgan Debates Trans Athletes - Compilation Feat Matt Walsh & Riley Gaines
The question of whether biological men should be allowed to participate in women's sports is one that has been debated much on Uncensored - and here, we show you some pivotal moments. Piers Morgan speaks to Lord Sebastian Coe, Riley Gaines, Matt Walsh and many more about the question of transgender athletes and other issues that has arisen around the topic. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Pique: Get 20% off your order plus a FREE frother & glass beaker with this exclusive link: https://piquelife.com/PIERS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Trump Bans Trans Athletes00:08:18
Some of our liveliest uncensored debates are about whether the grass is blue and the sky is green.
More specifically, whether biological men should be allowed to play women's sport and the perils of limitless self-identity.
What we're about to show you is not a summer compilation.
It identifies as exceptional new content.
President Trump has banned trans athletes from women's sport.
Will the Olympic Games heading for Los Angeles comply or defy?
Ladies, we'll bring you my exclusive interview with Lord Sebastian Coe, who could be the next Olympics president and effectively the top boss in world sport.
And he knows all about Olympics because he was an Olympic champion himself.
But we begin with this.
It will henceforth be the official policy of the United States government that there are only two genders, male and female.
But all of that ends today because with this executive order, the war on women's sports is over.
Well, the New York Times schools is a shameful campaign against transgender Americans.
Well, NPR warns of extremism with chilling echoes in history.
Trump is facing a slew of legal challenges to the trans ban, but so far it's getting results anyway.
The NCAA, which enabled the whole Leah Thomas fast, has reversed a 15-year policy and will ban transgender women from women's sports.
Athlete Cece Telfa, a mediocre male runner who transitioned to become a record-breaking female runner, said this.
They would be smart and educated enough to know that something like that is not, that's not how history works and that's not how the direction of progressiveness works and you can't take you can't take back history.
Well, I responded on X by calling the interview absurd, adding that she was born male, looks and speaks like a man, runs like a man, and is smashing women's records.
She's not a victim.
She's a cheat.
Well, athlete Riley Gaines led a chorus of conservative criticism, but also rebuked me for not referring to Telfa as he.
Now, look, here's where I feel about this.
I've got no problem with calling a trans woman she.
I only have a problem when I believe they are deliberately trying to erode women's rights to fairness, equality, and safety.
And I think that's my dividing line.
And so really, is it the hill to die on as to whether we call CeCe Telfa he or she?
I don't think so.
But Riley will explain herself when it comes to this.
Others have pointed out that CeCe Telfa has no respect for women whose sporting dreams she's shattered.
That's an interesting part of his debate too.
And it's a sign of a massive cultural shift that using the wrong pronouns, previously a fully cancellable offense, is suddenly perfectly normal and no one's getting cancelled for it.
So has Trump's trans ban unleashed a new wave of misery for trans people everywhere, as some claim, or is he simply restoring much needed common sense in a way that, frankly, most voters fully agree with.
But joining me to debate all this is Blossom C. Brown, a transgender activist activist who sparred with Michael Knowles on Jubilee this week and the great Riley Gaines who's been a fantastic trailblazer for safeguarding women's rights and all this is the host of Gaines for Girls on Outkick.
You had a front row seat Riley at the White House when the president signed that executive order, which was quite a moment.
First of all, how did you feel being there for that moment in history, which you've campaigned so hard for?
Well, thank you, Pierce, for having me on.
Always a joy to be on with you.
There was a lot of emotions.
Of course, it's a bit bewildering that this is something that's necessary, that a sitting president has to take time out of his day, out of his busy day, to use his executive powers to declare, number one, that men and women are different, and then to further declare that men do not belong in women's sports.
But nonetheless, it is necessary.
I would argue that it was urgent.
So this type of moral clarity and decisiveness is, I just feel vindicated.
The past three years, me personally, and I know women who have been fighting much longer than I have.
The past three years, it's been an uphill battle.
Not only were we as women, as female athletes, I guess in particular, not only were we ignored and stonewalled, we were actually reprimanded if we dared to oppose this movement.
If we dared to even question this movement, we as women were reprimanded.
So to now to finally have a seat at the table and to have a president who is willing to listen to us, I just feel grateful.
I feel grateful for God's mercy that we don't deserve.
And I feel entirely vindicated, Pierce.
I think that visual, quickly, that visual of President Trump surrounded by all of these young girls, girls with dreams and aspirations and hopes for a future, I think that visual is one of the most iconic pictures that will come out of his administration.
And that's saying a lot considering this man has a mugshot.
Yeah, I mean, the two images I'll be remembering from all that involving you were you with Trump when that happened, but also you being mobbed literally in a vicious, horrible, threatening way by a gang of people wanting to cause you physically harm because you were standing up for women's rights, not least for safety, which seemed to me completely outrageous.
Vlossum, I can see you making faces there.
I've got one question to start this debate with you.
Why do we separate the sexes at the Olympics?
You know, first of all, I want to say shout out to Cece Tolfer.
I've met her before.
She is a magnificent person and she is very bad ASS and I love her to death.
Let me say this.
We'll come to CeCe Telford in a moment.
Cece Telver might be a fabulous person.
I'm going to come later to why I think what she does is completely wrong.
But just on the question I asked, why do we separate the sexes at the Olympics?
If you actually, well, Piers, if you actually let me get to it, because you let Riley have her talking points, I'm going to actually have my talking points now.
Cece is definitely a wonderful person.
And I think, let's be clear, Donald Trump is a complete moron.
Donald Trump talks so much about waste and fraud.
And you're signing a whole executive order banning trans women from playing sports.
According to the NCAA, there are over 510,000 athletes.
And within those athletes, there are only less than 10 trans athletes.
So you mean to tell me Donald Trump signed an executive order for 0.002 of the population when trans people are only 1%?
That's a waste.
That is a waste.
Trans people exist.
There are more than two sexes.
There are intersex people that exist.
And I think that it's nothing more than conservative propaganda that because Donald Trump is in power, he is able to use.
I think Donald Trump should stop booty clapping to Elon Musk and actually get something done in this country.
And eradicating trans people is not going to be it.
And I stand 10 toes down on that.
Okay.
I'll say very briefly, it's this argument that it's a small percentage of the population.
I hope you realize it's not a one-to-one ratio.
It's not for every one male that's participating in a woman's sport, it's one woman that's affected.
In my sport, at our national championships, one male displaced 14,000 women.
And I can speak for myself.
I can speak for my teammates.
I can speak for 99% of other female competitors on that pool deck.
We all felt betrayed.
We all felt violated in the locker room.
We all felt it was unfair, but not enough people were courageous enough to say it because they were terrified.
They were terrified of the name-calling that you just pursued.
Even, I mean, the first thing you say is Donald Trump is a moron.
What 20-year-old girl wants to be called transphobic or any of the slurs that have been thrown my way?
I can certainly attest to that.
You know, Riley, I think you're just trying to make it seem like that trans people are a threat to cis women in the breastroom.
And that's not the case.
Trans women and cis women should be coming together.
Trans women are not a threat to cis women.
Okay, but here's the look.
Blossom, blossom.
I believe that y'all have ran on that ideology.
Blossom have ran on that ideology.
Blossom.
Hang on.
And you're going to have to specifically tell me cases.
Blossom.
You're going to specifically tell me cases of trans women have hurt cis women in the restroom.
Fear in the Locker Room00:16:11
I like to know that.
Blossom.
We don't use things like words like cis on here because no one understands it.
Let's just.
Well, I use cisgender, so that's where I'm sure you do, but nobody's my vocabulary.
Yeah, but nobody else understands it.
Let's just stick to my question.
My question for you, which you have.
I understand you just have to have the intellectual capacity.
Blossom.
You don't have the intellectual capacity to understand.
Lossum.
Just to explain something.
You're appearing on a show called Piers Morgan Uncensored.
That means you can say whatever you want.
I know all about you, Piers.
Okay, you can.
And I know how you're good at race baiting.
I know how you're going to be transphobic.
And that's why I'm here to face you to face you one-on-one.
When do you think I've ever race baited?
Honey, you remember that whole incident with Sharon Osborne?
Yes.
Let's not forget.
Oh, you know, I do.
Oh, no, I do.
We're not here to talk about Ms. Sharon.
What do you think happened to you?
We're not here to talk about Ms. Sharon Osborne.
What do you want to talk about?
Trans people in sports.
Hang on.
Hang on.
You've raised it.
You are notorious.
Okay.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Let's have a conversation.
Let's have a conversation.
Let's talk about the Sharon Osborne thing.
Let me tell you what.
Since you've raised it.
Notorious.
Since you've raised it.
I'm a black trans person.
Blossom, stop talking for a moment.
I'm answering so many times since I've been here.
Blossom.
Can we have a conversation, please?
The white girl all the time.
Can we have a conversation, please?
And a black girl is having to be aware of the power.
Actually, at the moment, the black girl is doing all the talking.
So hang on, hang on.
What in the world was going to be?
Can I just say something, please?
That's my view.
Blossom, stop talking.
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Let me just explain to you why what you've just said is complete and utter nonsense.
I'm very glad you raised the Sharon Osborne thing, as you put it.
Just to remind people and you and educate you about what happened.
I was removed from my job hosting a morning show in Britain called Good Morning Britain because I disbelieved Megan Markle's claims of racism against the royal family.
Okay.
I never said a racist thing.
Hang on, hang on.
Let me finish.
I never said a racist thing about anybody, least of all Meghan Markle.
I've never invoked her skin color.
In fact, on the day she got married to Prince Harry, I wrote a front page story in a national newspaper in this country in which I extolled the glorious moment we finally had a biracial wedding in our otherwise all-white royal family.
You might be bored, but I'm going to address your allegation.
But hang on, I haven't finished.
I haven't finished.
I haven't finished, Blossom.
Let me finish.
Let me just educate you.
Well, I didn't get to finish this.
Let me just educate you with some facts.
You've called me a race baiter.
You've called me a race.
Please stop talking.
You've called me a race baiter.
Allegedly.
Hang on.
Hang on.
Right.
So let me finish.
So what happened then was Sharon Osborne, who was on a show called The Talk on CBS, now sadly no longer there because they got rid of Sharon.
And guess what?
Nobody wanted to watch it.
And Sheryl Underwood, a black woman on that panel, set up Sharon Osborne in the most despicable manner imaginable.
And she said to Sharon Osborne, why did you support Piers Morgan when he said those racist things?
Of course, you will.
Sharon Osborne, hang on.
You can respond when I finish telling you what happened.
You can respond when I tell you what happened.
I just want you to know you are discussing.
You can respond.
You can respond when I finished telling you what happened.
And you can challenge me on facts.
What you can't challenge me is something you've seen on TikTok.
So let me finish.
So Sharon Osborne was told, why did you...
Nobody said that on TikTok.
Come on.
Cheryl Underwood said to Sharon Osborne, okay.
If you're going to keep talking, I'll mute you.
I will mute you, but don't let me mute you.
Let me just finish.
Then you can respond.
Cheryl Underwood said, why did you support Piers Morgan when he said those racist things?
Sharon said, what racist things?
And as a result of that, by getting annoyed that she was being set up to try and supposedly defend her friend me in saying racist things I'd never said, Sharon got fired from the talk and she was left suicidal in the year that followed.
Her whole career was sent down the drain because ironically, the race baiter was actually the black woman on that panel, Cheryl Underwood, not Sharon Osborne and not me.
So I'm very glad you raised the issue of race baiting, but let's be clear.
As you're doing now, the race baiting came from Cheryl Underwood to Sharon Osborne and it's now coming from you.
So let's, now you can respond.
You cannot be racist, Pierre.
Now you can respond.
Black women cannot be racist to white women.
Are you kidding me?
Sorry?
That makes no sense.
Sorry?
Black women cannot be racist to white women.
Do you not understand that?
Oh, yes, they can.
You don't have to intellectually to understand that.
Oh, yes, they can.
And you've been racist to me.
That's very much a problem.
You've been racist to me, a white man, by saying I'm a race baiter.
Yeah.
How am I racist to you?
I'm black.
I can't be racist.
You've called me a race baiter with no evidence.
When have I been a race baiter?
You could be racist to me.
When have I been a race baiter?
I'm a powerhouse.
Tell me when I've been a race bait.
Well, you may be a powerhouse.
You may be a powerhouse.
You may be a powerhouse.
When have I been a race bait?
I'm going to admit that.
When have I been a race baiter?
Okay.
When have I been a race baiter?
Okay.
This is absurd.
No, hang on.
Tell me.
Blossom.
Give me one example of me race baiting.
Blossom, go.
I'm here.
At this point, I'm just here to talk about trans women in sports.
I said what I said.
So you don't have anything, do you?
Repeat anything.
You called me a race baiter, but you have no evidence I've ever race baited.
You admit it.
Do you believe that African Americans are superior to fascinating?
Like so many people, you play that race card and you can't defend it.
You can't support it.
There is no evidence.
It's not hard on.
Let me check you on that.
Let me check you all day.
You talk about this race card or whatnot.
The race card is reality.
My experience as a black trans woman is completely different than yours.
Well, let me ask you about reality then.
Do not interrupt a black trans woman when I'm speaking.
Oh, don't be so professional.
Riley, this was so much of a bad thing.
So you can interrupt me for the last 10 minutes.
Just to be clear, just to be clear, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Just to be clear, Blossom.
Why it's here's about trans all right.
Just can you mute Blossom for a moment, please?
Hang on, Riley.
Sort of make the point that Blossom has just literally interrupted me for 10 consecutive minutes without pausing breath.
But the moment Riley has the audacity to interrupt a blossom, oh, guess what?
The moment that's the moment that the black transgender woman decides this is outrageous.
Okay, you can unmute her now.
This feels like an SNL.
This feels like an SNL skit.
It does.
Okay.
It's preposterous.
Because I just want you to remember that Blossom said what she, her, her basis and perspective of life is rooted in reality.
So please remember that as we continue this conversation.
Which brings me to my question, which you haven't answered, Blossom, which is why do we separate the sexes in the Olympics?
Here's the thing.
I'm not an Olympian.
Oh.
I don't play sports.
You don't know why we separate the sexes.
What you're saying is conservative propaganda.
Probably.
What you're saying is conservative propaganda.
Conservative propaganda.
That you're able to get away from the people.
I asked you why we separate.
I asked you why we separate the sexes.
Why do we separate the sexes?
Again.
Why do we have to be a bad person?
When we talk about trans people.
When we talk about trans people, we're talking about gender identity.
And I need both of y'all's mindset to become more expansive.
Right.
I know that's a little hard for you.
Can you answer my question?
Because both of you have.
Can you answer my question?
I understand that's hard for both of y'all.
Can you answer my question?
Can you answer my question?
Again.
Again, when we talk about trans people, we're talking about gender identity.
We're not just sex.
That's not my question.
What y'all like to do is reduce conversations down to sex.
What you all like to do.
And you try to apply it to what's happening in the Olympics.
Okay, and I'm asking you a very inspiring trans women shall participate in the Olympics, the next Olympics, the next Olympics.
Okay, blossom.
Spreading misinformation and conservative propaganda should not be.
Okay.
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I'll ask you one more time.
Why do we separate the sexes in the Olympics?
Why do we have men and women competing separately?
Give me an answer.
Well, Pierce, why don't you tell me the answer?
It says, I don't know.
You don't know the answer?
Oh, Riley's got a hand.
Riley.
I don't know.
Riley, why don't you educate her?
Why don't you educate Blossom?
This is, I don't know.
Riley, why do we separate the sexes in the Olympics?
Because men and women are different.
We have different physical ceilings.
It's the same reason why you have any category.
It's the same reason why we have the Paralympics versus the Olympics.
It's the same reason why we have weight classes in boxing.
We don't have weight classes in boxing because we are fat shaming people who weigh more.
No, we have weight classes because it would be unfair.
We know the outcome.
Every single person, kindergartners, know the outcome of what would happen if we had a 220-pound man fight a 170-pound man.
It's the same reason why we have age divisions.
We don't have 12 and unders or PV links.
What if that 220 pound?
Wait, wait, wait.
What if that 170 pound man has the agility to beat that 220 pound man?
That makes no sense.
Do you want to base all of the Olympics off of acceptance?
Your answer makes no sense.
That makes no sense.
Y'all don't know.
Bottom line, it doesn't matter.
It's not biochemistry.
It makes no difference.
You do not know.
I'm sorry.
You absolutely do not know about somebody's biology.
You just admitted you're not biased chemistry is made differently.
You have never competed at the men's level.
And see, I have to say, I don't have to be an athlete to talk about this because this applies to the same thing.
But you just said you couldn't answer because you're not Olympians.
Why don't we try it?
Can we please stop talking at the same time?
If you talk at the same time, Blossom.
Blossom.
If you talk at the same time, nobody can hear either of you.
Okay?
So Blossom, let's start with you again.
A simple question.
I'll tell you why they separate the sexes, just as Riley has.
It's because men have a physical advantage over women, which would mean that women would not win more than a handful of medals in the entire Olympics.
Would you be happy if it was a gender-neutral Olympics?
Why are we talking about women, though?
Women are just as strong as men.
I'm asking you.
I'm sorry.
Women are just as strong as men.
So just to be clear.
Okay.
I don't believe that.
Okay, Blossom.
That's just your opinion.
So Blossom.
Blossom, if the world number one tennis player.
I don't buy it.
Okay, you know that Serena Williams admits that she would be beaten by the top thousand men in the world at tennis, right?
You know that.
Do you?
No, I didn't know.
You did not know that.
Okay, we're ranking.
You don't know that.
You don't know why men and women disabled them.
I would like to read those receipts.
Both Serena and Venus Williams lost.
Are you waving them around?
What?
You can look it up to the 203rd ranked male player.
He drank in between sets, smoked in between sets, and played 18 holes of golf before and admitted that he played like a 600 male ranked player.
And they lost in a blowout and they are phenoms the best of the best.
No other woman for a while even could come close to them and they got beat by a man.
Let me repeat it.
In a blowout, the 203rd ranked male player who admitted he played like a 600 ranked player.
Smoke between sets and played 18 holes of golf.
Blossom.
Blossom, just to be clear, would you want the American Olympics, the LA Olympics, would you want them to be gender neutral where the sexes compete with each other?
Absolutely.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
I think long-term.
And do you also believe that men and non-binary people?
Do you also believe that we shouldn't?
Why not?
It's completely insane.
This country was built on diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Exactly.
This is why that's a nice guy.
That does include cis women.
And you know what you would do?
You would exclude all women from winning medals.
Hold on!
That's not true!
That's not true!
That is not true.
Can we talk about Leah Thomas?
Now, I bring up Leah Thomas because Riley knows her very well.
I bring up Leah Thomas because the reality is, yes, she won some games, but Leah also lost some games to cis women.
So there are some cis women who are faster than Leah.
There are some cis women who are stronger than Leah.
And again, when we talk about genetics, there are some cis women that have natural higher testosterone levels than trans women.
That's why some of them may look more masculine.
Iman Khalif had to experience that transphobia.
Which, by the way, transphobia affects all women.
And now that Trump has excluded trans women from playing in sports, all women are going to be subjected to rigorous tests to make sure that they're not trans.
And that does include cis women.
I don't care how feminine they look.
You could potentially be subjected to these rigorous tests because Donald Trump took his peanut head red orange behind and signed an executive order that he doesn't even know anything about.
He's a convicted felon, 34 felonies, right?
We also need to be focusing on letting convicted felons in this country vote since we elected a convicted felon, right?
There's so much more work.
The economy is tanking here.
All right, Riley.
Testing All Women Now00:03:41
Gas prices are high.
Okay.
Why is Trump focused so much on trans people?
Because he wants to preserve the integrity.
Guess what?
I'll tell you why.
I'll tell you why, Blossom.
Because he's up again.
I'll tell you why, Blossom.
Hang on, hang on.
Hang on, Riley.
Hang on.
Hang on.
Blossom, here's why.
Because he's up against complete lunatics like you who think it would be right to have a gender-neutral Olympics.
A gender-neutral Olympics is the most insane thing I've ever heard from any trans activist in history.
Lunacy.
You haven't found out until you met me.
I'm not your average trans woman.
In case you didn't know, I'm not your average trans woman.
Riley.
People like Blossom are exactly why Donald Trump won on November 5th.
People, I believe.
Oh, girl, please.
Girl, please.
Donald Trump rigged the election, which is why he's sitting in office now.
Can we mute him?
Mute Blossom, please, because she can't stop talking.
Riley, you respond.
People turned out, I believe, in masses to the polls on November 5th to embrace Donald Trump, to embrace the America First Agenda, to embrace his cabinet picks.
But more so, I believe people turned out to the polls to reject absurdity.
And that is exactly what the past 30 minutes have been on this program, Pierce, is totally, entirely, and thoroughly absurd from top to bottom.
Saying there should be a gender-neutral Olympics.
Are you serious?
Do you also believe, Blossom, that we should combine the Paralympics and the Olympics?
I would love to hear an answer to that.
Okay, I'll ask you.
Bring back Blossom.
Blossom, should we combine the Paralympics with the regular Olympics?
Have them all compete with each other?
I mean, why not?
And to go back to Riley's point.
You are completely familiar with that.
Oh, yeah.
Go back to that last one.
Nobody.
So no Paralympian would win a medal.
That's the thing that I wanted to respond to.
So no Paralympian would win a medal.
So your diversity, equity, and inclusion turns out to be unequal because they can better accommodate any Paralympian or anyone.
And people won't because they want prices to come down.
People went to the polls.
They went to the polls to vote because they had every right to.
Yeah, and they voted for Donald Trump.
You know why they voted for Donald Trump?
They denied Donald Trump because people like you are terminalist debate.
Donald Trump rigged that election.
Donald Trump does not even have the capacity to even...
I'm going to mute Blossom one more time because I want to thank Riley.
Thank you, Blossom.
Riley, thank you for engaging in this and the best way you could have done.
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I think some of the things you've done in your current job, in my opinion, are essential for preserving the integrity of sport.
And let's start with what I think is probably one of the most contentious things in world sport right now, which is this whole issue of trans athletes in women's sport.
Donald Trump has come into office and immediately gone, right?
There's a ban.
We're not going to have in America trans athletes in women's sport.
The immediate consequence of that is, of course, you've got the Olympics coming to Los Angeles, and he's made it clear that trans athletes will not be allowed into America if they intend to compete, which means they won't be able to compete in the Olympics as far as he's concerned, because they won't get in past the border.
First of all, what is your reaction to the moves he's made?
I welcome the commitment to maintaining the integrity of women's sport.
And for me, this is absolutely about the integrity of competition.
I am by nature a social liberal.
I really do not choose, nor do I have any predisposition to tell people how to live their lives.
But when it comes to the biology of sport, it is very, very clear-cut.
And actually, I'm surprised that it has been as contentious a discussion as it has become.
It seems completely insane to me.
I mean, I'm thinking about in 20, 30 years' time, I'm convinced we're going to look back on this period and think everybody went completely nuts because there's a reason at the Olympics that we separate the sexes.
If we didn't, women would barely win a medal.
Well, you would lose women's sport.
It would be destroyed.
It is as simple as that.
And I was confronted with this issue.
I don't want to get into the weeds, but there are two quite distinct issues that at World Athletics we had to deal with.
One was something called DSD, which is a male biology, and the other is transgender.
And look, I'm not oblivious to the trauma that people go through if they do transition.
I absolutely respect that.
We have a working group at World Athletics looking at this and maintaining a watching view on changing science and the politics of this.
We also have a transgender athlete on that commission.
But when it comes to the female category in elite sport, it has to be sacrosanct.
The reason I think it's so important is that you cannot have young girls coming into the sport and sensing or feeling that at any stage there is a glass ceiling to their ability to perform at the very highest level.
And you cannot have, you just simply cannot have this lack of clarity.
So World Athletics, we were very clear.
We followed the science and that is critical.
I think we've used language that is moderate.
You know, we're not rabid here.
And when I discuss this, I tend to always pull myself up short and say, I have two daughters.
How would I feel if they were being discussed at this moment?
So it's really important that we use language that is moderate.
But for me, this is sacrosanct.
What I don't like about the whole debate, and I haven't done from the start, is anyone that I think my political leanings are probably not dissimilar to yours, right?
I mean, I've always been a pretty liberal guy.
Yeah, exactly.
And I've really resented the fact that if you try and defend women's rights to fairness and equality and safety, actually, you get, you have been until now.
It's changing quite quickly.
But you get branded instantly transphobic as if somehow you're anti-trans people.
It's a really interesting point you make.
Funnily enough, when we made the decision, and this wasn't a unilateral decision, I have a council.
I have 26 people on my council, male and female.
I've got an executive board.
We have a health and science team.
But actually, when we made the decision and we went out and properly articulated what our concerns were, we didn't end up in that landscape because we were very clear and we showed a lead.
We took a lead here.
And some other international federations, I'm very pleased, have followed in the same way.
I don't condemn those that haven't because I can't sit here assuming that everybody's going to see the world the way I do.
But you're seeing it scientifically and biologically.
I mean, there's a factual element to what you're doing.
I think the other bodies who haven't taken action yet are just putting their head in the sand, hoping this all blows over.
They haven't got to do anything, which is actually, it's a form of moral cowardice.
It's the worst position to be in here is where you have lack of clarity.
You have to have clarity here because, you know, the world of sport needs a lead here.
And we've thought about this long and hard.
And it really does come down to the integrity.
You know, if you have the integrity of sport absolutely at the heart of every decision you make and the welfare of the athletes at the heart of every decision you make, you won't go far wrong.
And that's really, those have been my two guiding pillars.
If I let that go, then I've lost the integrity of the sport for women.
And I'm just not prepared to do that.
I mean, if you at your peak, and I was in my late teens when you and Steve Ovet and Steve Cram had your magnificent battles and instill great pride in the country with your tremendous wins.
But if you had decided at the time, right, I'm going to now identify as a woman.
And the only criteria was that you just had to reduce your testosterone level, for example, which is the argument some people give.
You've still got the physiology that you were given as a biological man.
Therefore, you would have completely dominated women's sport to a degree that you would have broken the records, which could then never be broken again by an actual biological woman.
That's always been my thing about it.
You would also have deprived a biological woman, but a woman, let's call them, they're not biological women, they're women.
You would have deprived a woman of a place in an Olympic team, a world championship team, because you're taking it and you would have won everything, right?
That to me right there is the problem.
Piers, I could actually repeat word for word what you've just said.
I don't actually dissent from any of it.
The challenge we've got is that we need to communicate this.
We need to communicate it liberally.
And we need to communicate it in language that is not rabid.
It is follow the science.
Have you thought about that?
And it's really, for me, it's really clear.
Gender must not override biology.
Because if you do, then you are into a you're into a really dangerous landscape.
Have you thought about what happens to trans athletes?
In other words, you know, I want trans people to have the same rights to fairness, equality, and safety as I want for women and for men.
And the right to compete in sport.
And it seems to me there's only one of two ways that this gets resolved where they can continue to compete.
You either have a new category for trans athletes, and it doesn't work with the other way around, with the trans men, because obviously they don't have the biological advantage.
So, but for trans women, of whom there are an increasing number identifying as trans women, they either compete in a new category or they compete against their biological sex, it seems to me.
Well, there may be a time, and it may not be that far.
I'm not going to bind the hands of my successor at World Athletics.
They will have to make a judgment in the fullness of time as whether you do have a third category.
Do you think that's the only sensible way?
No, I don't at this moment.
No, I don't.
But I'm not going to sit there, you know, when I'm not on the scenes telling everybody that, you know, because we did what we did when we did it.
I tend to agree with you.
I think we'll look back on this and see this as being a really big point of inflection.
But again, this is something that needs to be clarified.
The position we've taken in world athletics is that in elite level women's competition, we should not have transgender competitors for all the reasons you pointed out.
I talked about, you know, the ambition and the aspiration of young girls to come into your sport.
You absolutely need that.
But there's another issue, and you raised it, and that is the residual physiological, biomechanical, anatomical advantage that you maintain.
But we're not sitting here saying, nor do I have, I don't have the jurisdiction, I certainly don't have the moral disposition to tell trans athletes they can't enjoy the physicality of sport.
If a trans athlete wanted a run in the Falmouth 5K for the local hospital, I don't have a problem with that.
No, why would anybody have a problem?
But it fundamentally alters, it fundamentally alters the dynamic of elite level international sport for women.
And that's where we've drawn the line.
I mean, there's also, I think, a clear safety issue.
Like, if you looked at the boxing, the women's boxing in the Olympics in Paris with Imam Khalif, who no one's really quite sure what the situation is with Imam Khalif, other than she was banned from the world championships for supposedly testing positive for male chromosomes.
She has refused to have a test, a public test, to say either way.
I think you want tests brought in.
We agreed that the other day, and it's in line with every international medical standard.
And it's a simple swab test?
Yes, absolutely.
And it just determines whether you have male chromosomes.
Exactly.
And actually, there is an important element here as well, because for athletes with DSD, you're actually also wanting to identify the medical challenges.
For those who don't know, what is DSD?
It is effectively a woman, a girl that is born with male biology.
And the production of testosterone is, look, testosterone is the key determinant in competition.
You know, let me, again, if I can, I'm not a scientist, but if I can put this into sort of simple terms.
When my daughters, your daughters, were competing in primary school sports, up to about the age of 11 or 12, they were probably seeing off most of the boys in the class.
When puberty kicks in, the gap opens and that gap doesn't close.
So what we're really saying is that any athlete that passes through puberty should be clearly classified.
And again, the issue around the boxing, and it was just the lack of clarity.
Well, also, it was actually a problem.
Well, I thought it was worse, actually, because you had someone who'd been banned from the world championships over serious question marks about her alleged chromosomes.
And you had a female fighter quitting after 40 seconds and saying afterwards, I've never been hit that hard.
And I found that pretty scary, that you may have a situation where somebody who, for all intents and purposes, is male, beating up a woman in a boxing ring in the Olympics.
There had to be more to it than simple identification of sex on a passport.
Right.
You know, it was really important that you have those systems in place.
And that's really all we...
What did you feel when you saw that?
Well, I'm sorry, I was on the British Boxing Board of Control for six years, and I have daughters.
I mean, how do you think I feel?
Tell me.
Well, uncomfortable.
Yeah.
Most people did.
But again, the people I think that were let down in that were, believe it or not, the competitors.
I don't disagree with that.
They were the athletes.
If you'd had systems in place that were clear and were clear and concise, which you had as world athletics.
That couldn't have happened.
Yeah.
And that's the problem about that.
And that's something we need to, that is something we have to address.
So to be clear, if you were to become president of the IOC, for example, you're in charge of the Olympics.
Would one of the first things you'd want is to have utter consistency over issues like this across everyone competing?
Yes, there is a clear caveat here because the international federations must themselves have the autonomy to make decisions that are in the best.
Can you override them?
No.
And we probably shouldn't.
The decision we took in world athletics was because we felt it was in the best interest of the sport.
I'm not sitting here.
I'm not the kind of leader that sits there and goes, one size fits all.
But what I do think is it is incumbent upon the International Olympic Committee to at least set the tone and the thought leadership around this.
And international federations, I think, would take a lead.
The problem is that you just have, there's no clear-cut clarity around this.
And until you get that, I'm afraid you will have more examples of what we've just talked about.
I was watching CNN yesterday and they had a sprinter called Cece Telfer who was biologically male competed as a male for a long time and then switched and said, I'm now a woman.
And I made the point on, I didn't mean to be transphobic at all.
I just said, look, this is somebody who presents like a man, talks like a man, sprints like a man, is a tall, powerful athlete sprinter, and is now smashing women's records.
And I said, I'm sorry, but to me, it's cheating.
It's as much cheating as doping because you are deliberately seeking an unfair advantage over your competitors.
Would you go as far as that?
I'm not sure I would use, I absolutely understand where you were coming from on this.
I'm not sure I would use that language.
What I would say is that you've got to have systems in place that prevent that from happening.
And you've got to go absolutely back to basics here.
Have your systems and everybody understands what that is.
I mean, look, you know, there are a set of records in one US state that have been set by two boys that turned up in a state championship and just suddenly said to the organising committee, we assigned them to...
I think CC Telfor was one of them.
We're assigned as women.
Well, you know, you've got to have clear-cut, you've got to have clear-cut policies here because you're leaving even a local organising committee in a real quandary.
If you have those decisions that are made at the top and they're filtered down and they're communicated properly, then you're going to obviate a lot of the pain for athletes in this as well, because this is not an easy situation for an athlete to be in.
I don't sit here thinking that anybody that chooses to become, you know, to transition, to go through that transgender process, is somebody that is going through anything other than a trauma.
But I think we should listen to people like Caitlin Jenner, who when you were young, you remember as Bruce Jenner winning Olympic decathlon gold medal, wrapping himself at the time in a big American flag, but has become a real voice of sanity in all this.
Russia Doping Scandal00:05:25
Well, I know Caitlin very well.
And of course, you know, we were not quite contemporaries, but one games before me.
And I had this conversation not that long ago in the US.
And I mean, to introduce a slightly comedic element, she is absolutely clear that this has to be, agreed with me, that you have to have clear-cut policies, and then laughed and said, I play golf.
Do you think I whack that off the women's tee?
You know, so there is a residual strain.
But she was invited to go off the women's tees originally when she first read, and she said no.
No, no.
And she teased off the men's teas.
And that's why, interestingly, the compromise in the end, it could be there's a new category, or it could be they simply compete against their biological sex, as Caitlin does by going off the men's team.
When she plays golf.
I think there is a different scale of challenge here as well, because with all due respects, in athletics, you have somebody in that situation in an 800 meters or whatever it happens to be.
They're probably going to win by half a straight.
That's embarrassment and frustration.
We're not a contact sport unless it goes horribly wrong and the judges have to get involved.
So there is a much bigger challenge in contact sports.
And that's where the safeguarding element of this and the physical safeguarding is really critical.
Do you, I mean, I'm not asking you to give a general view about President Trump, but on this issue, given he'll be president when the Olympics goes to LA, is he right on this?
He's right on the principle that, as we've just talked about, I'm not going to get into the local conditions that he's setting about, you know, visas and all that.
That is very much a US issue.
If I become president of World Athletics, I also, I'm not naive and coy, that's in my intree.
But that's something I'm would, you know, there's no certainty of outcome here.
It's an election.
It's, as you know well, it's not an exact science.
But that is something that clearly would be a challenge.
But insofar as he has set out to protect the female category, then that the logic of what I've said has to support that nostrum.
What about Russia?
Because they're currently banned by the IOC.
Athletes from Russia and Belarus are only allowed to compete in Paris as neutral athletes.
32 of them competed.
But I think you as World Athletics President, you went one step further and no track and field athletes from either country were allowed to compete, even neutral.
Yeah, but there's a bit more of a history to that, if you don't mind me saying.
I became president in 2015.
Talking about intrays, I had to deal with an intray that contained Russia that had, in the space of less than two years, 149 positive tests in athletics.
It wasn't something I could sit on my hands and say, oh, one more new cycle, we'll sort this out.
And there were other things that were going on at the same time.
And so in 2015, we suspended the Russian Federation.
We set up a task force.
It was independently chaired by one of the most eminent doping experts, anti-doping experts in Norwegian.
And bit by bit and slowly by bit, over seven years, we actually got Russia into, and we have got them into a decent position, where the Athletic Integrity Unit, which is what I set up with my own reforms, has now got control of the testing.
We've got two or three independent people.
They've got a new federation.
And actually, had the Russia-Ukraine situation not raised its head, they would have been ready to come back.
And I would have been actually quite pleased with that because we'd been through the process clearly.
What works out, you know, what happens now is a little above my pay grade and is being discussed as we speak in Saudi.
So we actually introduced the concept of neutral athletes.
And when I did it, everybody said, oh, it'll never work.
And within a year, everybody was actually using it.
But when we got to the situation, and again, it's about integrity here.
This wasn't about passports or politics.
I'm not interested.
I actually studied Russian history, interestingly.
That's not why we did it.
The same guiding principles around what we've just discussed in Transgender, for me, pertained in the Russia situation.
And that is that we suddenly had lost a country who had a proud tradition in track and field from being able to compete properly.
The male athletes were out on the front line, some of them losing their lives.
Female athletes were wondering where their husbands, boyfriends, and coaches were.
So it was just a very unequal situation.
But look, situations alter.
We have a working group that will look and monitor this and will regularly report back to the council as what situation must pertain.
Aiden Gallagher Controversy00:15:19
Teenage runner Aiden Gallagher became the Oregon Girls 200 meter state champion last week, posting one of the fastest times in the state's history with a remarkable display of power and stamina.
But as Aiden crossed the finish line, something, well, pretty unusual happened.
Sort of joyous cheering and adulation, many of the watching spectators loudly booed.
Well, the same thing happened when Gallagher received a gold medal on the podium, but the runner-up was loudly cheered when she received her silver.
And there's an explanation for all this.
Gallagher is a transgender athlete who was born a biological male and therefore has a vastly superior physiology to show for it.
And as viral video clips from the race show, Gallagher towered over many of the competing girls, displaying greatly greater height, power, and speed that frankly made a mockery of any pretense to fairness or equality.
The reaction of the crowd is a small moment in the grand scheme of things, but it might prove to be extremely significant.
A couple of years ago, it would have been very different.
This would have been held as he led his progressive symbolic victory for inclusivity and tolerance.
But now mainstream opinion is finally waking up to what is honestly insane.
What Adela has banned trans athletes who've been through male puberty from competing against women?
But the state-level bureaucrats and miles behind the Oregon authorities say they define a woman based on their consistently asserted gender identity.
But honestly, that's just disingenuous bullshit.
Yes, trans people deserve the same rights and respect as everybody else.
They should have fairness and equality.
They should have the same human rights as me.
But you can't consistently assert the massive physical differences that come from being born male or female and compete in sport.
Those rights cannot come at the expense of women's rights to fairness and equality in their own sport.
Now, for years, anyone prepared to speak up about this, like me, was instantly shamed and vilified as a transphobe.
But the reaction of the crowd in Oregon, which is actually, excuse, more liberal than conservative, shows the silent majority might finally be fighting back and letting their feelings be heard loud and clear.
Well, joining me to debate this and more, our comedian and podcaster James Barr, uncensored contributor Esther Kraken, outkick host Tony Lehron, and the host of the Hituation Room podcast, Francesca Fiorantini.
So welcome to all of you.
Tommy, let me start with you.
I watched a video of this as a father of a 12-year-old girl who loves a bit of sport.
And honestly, my heart just sank.
But when I heard the booing, I was thrilled, not because the athlete was being booed.
I felt awful for the trans athlete.
But because I finally felt that the silent majority were finding their voice.
What did you think?
Yeah, I also think that it's big that this happened in a place like Oregon.
Oregon is not conservative, maybe certain parts, but certainly the majority of Oregon is certainly more on the left side.
So I think the fact that the crowd is saying, hey, this is unacceptable, that's a big moment.
But we just have to stop denying this, peers.
I mean, the silent majority, and I would agree that the majority, actually, the more vocal majority now, is saying that this is absolutely ludicrous.
And listen, I think we need to stop talking about biological men competing against biological women in women's sports.
This is a trans person, a trans woman competing against actual women.
Stop dismissing women by calling us biological women.
We are just women.
So I want to put that out there first.
I agree.
Why are we constantly, and when I say we, why is popular culture constantly asserting that trans people, their feelings, their emotions, their inclusion is more important than the majority of women who just want to have fairness, want to compete, want to have achievements, accomplishments, and opportunities.
Why do their feelings matter more than the feelings of the women that they're competing against?
It's ridiculous.
We keep coddling and cow-cowing to this madness.
I hope we're seeing the end of it.
And I think within the next couple of years, we will.
Yeah, I mean, I'm amazed that every woman, frankly, doesn't agree with you because the unfairness and inequality is so obvious.
But Francesca, I can see you actually going berserk here with indignation.
So presumably you don't agree.
I mean, just, I just, please don't speak for me.
You know what I'm saying?
Either of you.
Please don't speak for me, please don't speak for all women.
Just let's get that out of the way right now, because I do disagree.
I think about what if your kid, what if your 12 year old kid was Aiden.
Wouldn't that be incredible?
Wouldn't you be proud of Aiden?
No, and how much would it?
No, absolutely not unless.
Unless that child had gone, had not even reached puberty and is.
And in the case of my daughter, for example, and someone is trying to convince her that if you just put your hand up and say that you're a boy, you can suddenly compete against a different biological sex and say, it's all massive Piers I, really I.
This is what's crazy about it.
Do you think that that's what's driving trans women to compete as athletes?
Is that they're like, hmm, if I transition to become a woman, I can win a gold medal in a high school track and meet competition.
I don't care.
The reality is they're doing it right and the point is that to me, the the answer is obvious.
They're not doing it to win a medal, they're doing it because that is their idea, but they're winning headlines at the expense of actual women who can't compete with them physically.
It's why.
It's why we separate.
You know what, like I, actually i'm embarrassed to be a woman when I see women freaking out about the, about trans women.
Wow one, one out of so many people, not just one.
Okay, it's happening.
And swimming with Leah Thomas, it's happening in all sorts of sports.
Yes, because it makes us look really pathetic.
Honestly, it makes us look like losers and whiners.
And guess what?
I'm not a loser or winer.
You know what I actually want to talk about when it comes to women's sports.
Why is Caitlin Clark being paid 80 times less than her counterpart entering the NBA?
Well, that's quite straightforward.
Hold on, hold on.
Can I ask women?
No one ever.
Let me ask you a question.
If I hit you over the head with a bat and I said the plan wasn't to kill you, it's because you had a fly in your head, would you still not go to the police for assault?
Does my, does my intention matter?
Because that's exactly what you just trying to rule gold.
That's exactly what you know.
Just because trans people are not identifying as trans to to basically erode women's sports, it that that makes it okay?
That that's exactly what they're doing?
This is, I think that's what they're doing.
Let me finish this.
You know what the issue of women's.
You know what the issue is.
They are useful idiots like you that are validating a scientific nonsense.
There's no such thing as gender identity being trans.
Identifying is a mental illness, a reality that exists only in your head should not be validated, and specifically not at the expense of people that are just going about their business, trying to win sporting tournaments or trying to use useful idiots like you that are leading to you and back to you.
Can you can basically go to the go to an island where all women think like you and that you can compete with all the biological men you want, but do not impose your backward views on the rest of us and have the audacity to call us regressive.
Okay Francesca, your spoiler come to James.
My response is this, look I, I I care more about human life and people actually, I care about the right to privacy.
I care about people surviving and living in this world.
Yes, I do.
You don't seem to care about the right to privacy of biological women not wanting to share their spaces with biological men.
What about them?
What about the number of trans youth who are in the world?
No, no, hold on, hold on.
Don't play every single transition.
What's about biological women not wanting to share a bathroom with a biological man?
Talk about that.
Don't you want to answer that question?
What about them?
Do they not matter?
Look, look, lady, you can go into every bathroom and pick a fight with every person who you think is in the penis.
That's your parole.
If a man goes into a bathroom looking at my daughter, teenager, a teenager being booed.
Guys, let's not bully, okay?
I believe it was Melania Trump who said, be best.
And we know what bullying leads to.
Stephen Miller.
You know what it is.
Okay, but Fantasy.
I'm going to come to James, because to me, there's conflating two issues.
You can absolutely support trans rights to fairness and equality, as I do and consistently have.
But you can also see that there is obviously a massive problem now getting increasing now in women's sport.
And there's a reason.
And we've had this conversation, James, but you gave a preposterous answer last time.
There's a reason we separate sexes in the Olympics, in the world championships, because otherwise women would never win anything.
Look, I think that's why we do it.
It's not because women aren't great athletes.
Women would never.
They're great athletes when competing.
What a quick.
Because people physically born.
Listen, I have so much to say.
I want to explode.
Firstly, Esther, you're the only thing making anyone angry or incensed right now.
So you're causing me a mental health issue.
So really, if there's a mental illness, it's actually...
I'm not going to be able to do that.
I would like to take a pill.
We could all be mentally unwell together.
From my life.
Going back to the state here, like most of the female winners in this sport, they are hitting around 22 to 24 seconds, which is exactly what the gold medalist won here.
And then also following up with what you said.
What's your point?
What's your point?
My point is this is normal for a woman.
No, no, no.
This is a normal speed for a woman.
No, in a race.
But let's get back to what you're saying.
You're talking about women's safety in changing rooms.
Finish, please.
You're talking about women's safety in changing rooms.
That's what Esther brought this conversation down to.
But what I do know about is that one in three women in America are abused violently in their lifetime.
And in every single day in America, 13,000 women are a victim.
Why are we talking about one trans woman being in a changing room?
How dare you, a man, say anything about women feeling unsafe with biological men?
No, you can't, because you're not a woman.
You have never had a period.
You've never been a woman in a woman's skin.
So don't even hit.
I'm not picking on one.
I'm not picking on that.
I'm talking about the fact that women around the world are being affected because we are validating a science.
You're shouting at biological men, your words.
Why am I, and I, and you're allowed to talk about biological men, so why am I not allowed to talk about women?
Hang on.
Sorry, Mike.
Hang on.
Hang on.
We are conflating various issues here.
So let's get back to the actual issue we want to debate, which is the issue of this young summer four, Aiden Gallagher.
I come back to Tommy here.
You know, I know this debate always inspires everyone to get very angry and there's lots of allegations of transphobia and so on.
I really think they're missing the central point.
There is a reason we separate sexes in sport.
And the reason, like I said, when the Olympics are in Paris later this summer, if you allowed women and men to compete in a generalized way, then women would win almost no medals.
Literally, other than one or two events, possibly equestrian, possibly archery.
There are very few things which anything that involves power or stamina or speed or snow.
Piers, can I ask you a question really quickly?
Yes.
Because have you ever undergone any kind of like hormone replacement therapy?
No, you mean you mean chopped off his penis?
Because that's what happened.
Hang on.
I'm not talking to you, Esther.
Hang on.
Okay.
I'm talking to Piers.
Yeah.
Because actually, the body does go undergo an incredible amount of toil.
What it doesn't do, Francesca.
I've heard this on.
Hang on.
It doesn't change your body mass.
No, it does.
No, it doesn't.
It absolutely can change your body.
No, it doesn't.
It doesn't.
You remain as muscular.
You don't know this?
Talk to someone like Caitlin Jenner.
Who was as a man was the DeKathlyn gold medal winner for the United States of America.
And was then, when she took up golf, having transitioned, was told she could tee off from the women's tees, right?
The women's tees are 50 yards further ahead than the men's, and she said she was winning every tournament.
Asking Caitlin Jenner for any advice or practical information is like asking you, Piers, for how to get a six-pack.
Like, what are we doing?
Actually, I've got quite an impressive growing six-pack, as my Instagram table.
The point is that it's incredibly difficult.
I want to point this out.
Tommy.
Piers, I want to point this out because your guests here, I mean, talk about the snake eating its own tail.
They're sitting there talking about trans rights and affirming transgender ideology, but then they're saying that Caitlin Jenner, who is probably the most famous trans person, that doesn't count because Caitlin Jenner is not only a Republican, but Caitlin Jenner also calls out biological men competing in women's sports.
So your guests sit here and they cry, who cares about trans rights?
But then they dismiss Caitlin Jenner.
It's amazing.
These are also the same people who claim to be feminists, but also don't care about actual women being robbed of opportunities.
That's why liberalism is a disease.
And you can just let these people talk and they argue with themselves, Piers.
The point is, if Aiden Gallagher competed according to their biological sex, they would not be succeeding.
They wouldn't be winning state championships.
They would actually not even be qualifying for the finals.
That is the point everyone's missing.
Piers.
Why do you care about women's integrity sport?
But you don't.
Have you done a segment on Caitlin Clark and pay disparity?
Have you done a segment?
Where were you when the U.S. women's name was?
He doesn't even know what to do.
You have no idea.
Well, hang on, shut up, man.
You have no idea, Ashie.
Shut up.
You have no idea what I've said about women's networking.
What about when the women's national team wins in the United States, right?
They've won like four times at this point.
And what happens?
Oh, Megan Rapino, who is both a lesbian and also like one-time knelt during the national anthem, she is not a real patriot.
They freak out.
Donald Trump tweets about her.
No, you know, you're missing.
Megan Rapino.
Megan Rapino is a very, very good football player, but also incredibly irritating.
And I noticed that when she retired, it was only then she said that she wanted trans women to be playing in the American women's national team.
In other words, when it wasn't possible for that person to take her position.
Because here's a scenario for you.
Leonore Messi puts his hand up and says, actually, I'm feeling like a woman today.
Do you play him in the American women's national team, Francesca?
Yes or no?
Lionel Messi undergo an incredible.
He had to undergo an incredible amount of treatment when he was young.
He had a bunch of like American women's national teams.
He's had a growth spurt.
I'm a big Messi fan.
But let me just say that.
Answer my question.
Would you allow him, if he said, I'm a woman, to play in the American women's name?
You're using the wrong pronoun.
Yes, yes, yes, right now.
Hell yeah.
Are you kidding me?
Wow.
Messi on the U.S. women's national team?
Hell yeah.
Messi Gender Identity Joke00:10:14
Would you allow Usain Bolt to do that and be in the sprinting team?
Because that would mean they're a trans woman.
They identify as women.
I get it.
I get it.
So just to be clear, you'd let Leonore Messi play in the women's national football team and destroy women's football forever.
You'd let Usain Bennett.
It'd be very difficult to get a ticket, which would be a good thing.
You suck.
I want to do a little checklist here.
You'd let Usain Bolt compete as a sprinter in the American women's Olympic team.
Yes.
Okay, you would let Floyd Mayweather compete as a boxer in the women's American boxing team.
Yeah, you are a lunatic.
I completely agree.
Lunatic.
I agree with Francesca.
And I guess you're a family.
They would have to transition in lunacy.
You always say that you want to be a penguin.
I would let you live at London Zoo in a cage like the rest of the people.
You know what?
I'd be a very popular exhibit.
I would.
Here's the problem.
It is so delusional.
The idea you would let Usain Boltz say, I'm a woman, and compete against women on a racetrack when no man can compete with him, right?
It's utterly ridiculous.
Well, I'm just convinced that they don't actually believe this, but the logical conclusion of their ludicrous arguments facilitates the need to actually say these things.
Also, this is a testament to the poor quality of public education in both the US and the UK, that you both don't understand the basic economics of how sports entertainment works.
If there are not enough bums on seats, you don't get paid enough.
That's literally it.
So sitting there outraged about the fact that some female players don't make as much as some male athletes, guess what?
Go and buy the tickets to their games and start boosting up their viewing figures.
And then maybe Caitlin Clark has more views.
Look at the revenue for the Women's World Cup and compare it to the men's World Cup.
They are light years away.
Can I say one line?
Caitlin Clark was the most watched, most watched women's college player ever.
The ratings were through the roof.
She's getting sponsored.
Compare it to the average male college viewership.
She had more views than them.
We are moving on to a different issue.
I want to talk about Harrison Butker first.
Tommy, I want to come to you on this.
Let's just play a clip.
This is a guy who's a Kansas City Chiefs star.
He made a commencement speech at Benedictine College in which he told women they should aspire to be homemakers.
Take a look.
I think it is you, the women, who have had the most diabolical lies told to you.
How many of you are sitting here now, about to cross this stage, and are thinking about all the promotions and titles you're going to get in your career?
Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world.
Not the deadly sin sort of pride that has an entire month dedicated to it, but the true God-centered pride.
Be unapologetic in your masculinity, fighting against the cultural emasculation of men.
Now, Tommy, this credit a huge Fiori, of course.
The Kansas City, well, the NFL, I think, threw him under a bus immediately.
So they were outraged.
It wasn't their opinions and so on.
But there's been a lot of surprising voices of support.
Bill Maher, for example, a liberal, came out and basically supported his right to say this.
It's obviously religiously motivated, what he said.
What did you make of what he came out with?
Listen, I don't agree with everything that he said, but I also think a lot of people are taking it out of context.
He's a Catholic speaking to other Catholics.
So you have to put that in context.
He's not speaking to people at a pride parade.
He's speaking to Catholics who hold traditional Catholic views.
And there's nothing wrong with him expressing his opinions.
We can disagree with them, but I would also like to point out that when he's giving this commencement speech as a Catholic to Catholics, he's not like some of the other athletes who want to kneel at an actual football game or who want to force fellow athletes to wear rainbows when they're going to compete at their sport.
He's giving a commencement speech to Catholics.
So the left really needs to decide, do they want athletes to take a stand or not?
Because we are told that Colin Kaepernick and others, LeBron James, Megan Rapino, they should be hailed for their political speech.
But then Harrison Bucker, who gives a speech, a commencement speech to fellow Catholics, all of a sudden, that's a bridge too far.
Please change your output.
James, you're a spoiler.
I mean, he talked about Catholic pride.
Pride in God.
I think it's actually the most shocking part of that was the fact that he mentioned Taylor Swift and called her his teammate's girlfriend.
That is so offensive.
Why?
She is so offensive.
He said that, well, she has a name.
She's one of the most successful women on the planet.
You see Jokes.
Talking about how you've got no sense of humor you have only focusing on having kids.
Volt Brigade can never laugh.
When do you all get together?
Do you ever tell Jokes?
You know what?
You're supposed to be a comedian.
Pierre Morgan, maybe Arsenal should take his advice and just sit at home and get married and not play football because clearly they don't have to be a lot of people.
But fundamentally, why is he, as Tommy said, why is he not allowed to have those views?
There are many women who sit at home, by the way, doing a much harder job than anyone sitting here.
Because he has a responsibility.
Sitting at home, bringing up children is a hard, hard job.
Very.
So that's what I'm saying.
Why do we denigrate it by saying, and that's all you're going to do?
I'm denigrating it, but how dare you tell anyone what they should be doing?
It's not an opinion if you're telling people what they should be doing.
He's allowed to give him advice.
We're in the room that they've wasted four years.
Do you tell people what to do?
I don't jump with you.
But Tommy's point is right.
He is allowed an opinion.
But what you're missing is that this opinion is being broadcast to millions of people.
James, would you have had a problem if he said go out there and be boss baits, girls, and be CEOs and all of that?
No, you only have a problem because you disagreed with his science.
I think one of the interesting things he said is that many women would look forward to their promotions and all of that, but they look forward to being mothers more.
Because actually, many women don't have great careers.
Most women don't get to be CEOs.
They don't get to be business owners.
They usually become administrators at work and give up.
No, but the point is, we've glamorized this whole idea of women in the workforce as in, go be boss babe, and do you know, own Facebook and all of that, and the vast majority, the overwhelming majority of women are overworked underpaid, doing unglamorous jobs, and somehow that's seen as something to be glorified as being a boss baby.
You know what it also comes back to, that there's also this whole idea of the, of what activism is allowed and not.
How should people be forced to do it?
For instance, there's a football player uh who plays for Monaco in France and he's from Mali uh, in Africa.
He's called Muhammad Kamara and he and the whole team were told to wear Lgbtq and the rest of it uh pride badges uh before a game, and he refused right, and the French sports minister has now said he will be facing the strongest sanctions against him and his club for refusing to wear an LGBT pride badge.
Now James again, I simply say this, why the hell should he have to if his conviction is from a country, by the way, which is a place where they do not believe that homosexuality is anything but a sin?
I don't agree with that.
You don't agree with that obviously, but that's where he comes from.
His religious conviction tells him that he's not being homophobic, he's not saying homophobic things.
He just doesn't want to wear an LGBT pride badge while he's playing football.
Why the hell should he?
What LGBT and the rest of it?
Did you say yeah?
Do you want to know what the rest of the letters are there?
Even you don't know.
Actually, go on, then.
LGBTQ FU.
Now back to what he was saying.
Let's have a conversation about.
Oh, you actually can't remember the rest of the dad?
Nobody can.
Um, let's have a conversation about it.
He also covered up uh, a sign that said no homophobia in French.
So I you know why should he have to?
On one hand, I'm like cool, if you don't want to wear the rainbow flag, that's a bit awkward.
But if you don't want to wear a flag that says no homophobia, why should he have to?
So what are you pro-homophobia?
No, it doesn't mean no.
If you don't want to, if you don't want to support no homophobia just means no bullying, it means human rights, and if you don't want to say that, then what the hell are you going to do?
I wouldn't wear an Lgbt pride badge, do you?
Do you support homophobia?
No right, but this is.
This is peers it is.
It is a private company.
I mean, it is a football team, right it?
That's their prerogative.
This is not uh, he doesn't have to wear it implementing this.
Yeah, I mean right.
So I don't know why you're getting so upset.
And also there's like a weird because they're gonna sanction him.
Okay well, they should.
Okay, you think that's okay, Then he can go play somewhere where they don't need to wear those.
Tommy, let me bring you in physical common sense as usual.
No, but I thought we were talking about Harrison Butker.
I didn't get any bite of the butker apple here.
Well, we'll have a bite of the butker apple.
We all know what we're going to say, so we can just summarize that.
Yes.
Girl, don't you have a Beyoncé album to talk about this?
I want to talk about that.
She's in a cowboy outfit.
Oh, she got an American flag on.
She thinks she's a country singer.
I'm sure you've got a few of them.
Maybe you've said anything about that, but whatever.
Yeah, that's why.
Please don't interrupt me when I'm.
I'm rather obsessed with my work, so I appreciate it.
Piers, I'd like to get back to the point at hand.
Yes.
So I'm sorry, were you talking about supporting women before we talk?
No, you talked about it.
Francesca, can you let another woman speak, please?
Yeah.
No.
So much for being here.
I'm not going to because you talked about Harrison.
Now I'm going to talk about Harris.
Harrison Butker's mom is a physicist who works in an oncology department.
All this is, is a bunch of mommy issues that he laid out at a bunch of female graduates who are trying to celebrate this incredible achievement.
And he tells them that they have been told a diabolical lie.
I mean, that is absolutely disrespectful and degrading if you want to talk about women's rights.
They have just achieved this.
And the other thing is, the rest of his speech was about, oh, what happened to the Catholics and all the good Catholicism and where have we gone a ride?
Why don't we respect priests anymore?
Gee, I wonder why we don't respect priests anymore.
Can anyone think of what's happened to the priesthood in the last 20, 30, 40, 50 years?
Anyone?
No?
Yeah.
Yeah, I can.
Yeah, there have been a lot of priests have been exposed as Peter Farz, and it's completely outrageous.
I say that as a Catholic.
Who's as a Paul Byron as you are?
Joined now by the Daily Wire's Matt Walsh from Nashville.
How's the weather, Matt?
I hear it's a little chilly down there.
So we got about three inches of snow and it shut the whole city down.
That's the way.
That's the way we do it here in the South.
NFL Coaching Racism Claims00:05:33
So it's been an adventure for sure.
Well, it's good to see you.
So much to talk about, as always, in your wheelhouse.
But I want to talk about this extraordinary story about the Federal Aviation Administration actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric problems, and other mental and physical conditions under a diversity and inclusion hiring initiative spelled out on the agency's website.
On the face of it, this seems plain ridiculous.
Your thoughts?
Yeah, on the face of it, it seems plain ridiculous.
I think when you look deeper, it still seems plain ridiculous.
Now, obviously, no one is claiming that at this point they're going to hire, you know, someone who's blind or paralyzed to actually fly, you know, a Delta aircraft 30,000 feet in the air.
So we're not at that, maybe we'll get to that point.
We're not at that point yet.
But the point is that they have decided, this goes back to, I believe it's 2013, an Obama-era initiative by the FAA that they wanted to diversify the airline industry.
And they have a lot of several different groups that they wanted to increase their participation in the airline industry.
And those with disabilities is one of those groups.
Now, what you'll hear from people on the other side of this, people that are fans of these kinds of diversification efforts, is that, well, yeah, they're doing this, but they're not lowering the standards at all in order to do it.
That's the claim, anyway.
And it's true that whether it's the FAA or any other institution that is putting DEI into practice and trying to diversify, none of them will come out and say, of course, none of them are going to say that we're lowering the standards.
But that obviously is what ends up happening.
Because if you had the standards set a certain place and then you ended up with a certain number of, let's say, white pilots, and then you say, well, we don't want that many white pilots, so we want to get more of other types of people in there.
Well, what do you have to do with the standards?
You end up lowering them, and that's exactly what happens.
I mean, I saw that the new coach in the NFL has replaced Bill Belichick of the Patriots, and he's immediately...
come out and played the race card and basically saying, if you don't see color, you don't understand racism, and so on.
Other black coaches in the Nfl have taken a very different view and said, all they want to see is football and players.
They don't care about what color they are.
And it struck me as sort of a bizarre stance to take, because the vast majority of players, for example in the Nfl, are black I think nearly 70 percent.
What did you make of that when you heard it?
Well, I think, if you are, you know that if we're getting to the point where we can find anti-black racism in the Nfl, well then just the concept means nothing anymore.
As you point out, I think it's like 70 to 80 percent of players in the Nfl are black.
Uh, the the Nfl, if you, if you take all the different positions on the field and on the sidelines, it is, you know, black people are vastly overrepresented when you compare them to the 13 percent of the overall population.
Um, so if we're looking for racism even there then uh, then then it's just, the entire concept is is totally meaningless.
Uh, and in particular, this idea that black head coaches are are being targeted for racism.
Of course, i'm not the first person to point this out but okay, if a if a lack of NFL of black Nfl head coaches is a result of racism, then how do you explain a lack, of say, white defensive backs on the field?
Right, there's basically none at this point, and are they being targeted for racism?
So it just, it just doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, I mean, 60 of Americans, I think in the most recent poll I saw, are white, and yet they're not represented by 60 white players in the Nfl or the NBA or most American sports.
But nobody, nobody complains about that.
No one says well, hang on, that's racist.
No one would think that way.
The other way around, and I admire these uh, black coaches in the Nfl who stood up and went, no, it's ridiculous, it's irrelevant.
All we care is how good the player is or how good the coach is or how good the executives are.
Yeah, and that's.
And, by the way, the reason why people don't complain.
The other way is that, of course, we know that.
Diversify, diversity and inclusion, all these phrases, this is coded language and what it really means is we have to make these things less white.
But nobody wants to come out and say that.
That's one of the reasons why you hear you'll often hear them refer to um, not only diverse groups, but they'll talk about diverse people.
We need, we need a more diverse person in this role.
How could a person individually be diverse doesn't make any sense.
Well then you understand that what they're really saying is, we want a non-white person.
They just don't want to come out and say that.
I think another important point point that you brought up is that if we are obsessed with representation, if it is very important that every group be exactly represented in every industry that we look at and I don't agree that that is important, I think that's a that's a, an unworkable untenable, unsustainable goal that makes no sense and it's totally arbitrary.
But this is what representation would mean.
Representation would mean that you have, whatever your percentage is in the overall population, that's what you have in this industry.
Satire Meets Absurd Reality00:08:41
But then you find out that that's not good enough for the representation police, which is which is interesting right, exactly.
Let's take a short break, Matt.
I want to come back and talk about the Daily Wire's brilliant new comedy movie, Lady Ballers, which the title may give people a clue about what issue this is about, but of course it relates to this ongoing furore around trans athletes in women's sport.
We'll talk about that after the break and show a clip.
Matt Walsh is still with me.
Welcome back to our sensitivity from.
New York was a lot colder than it looked in that live shot.
Matt Walsh is still with me.
Uh Matt, Lady Ballers is the brilliant new movie from you guys at Daily WIRE.
Let's take a look at a little clip.
Let's cut to the chase.
I know you're not a woman.
What do you know about the U.S. Opens for the Global Games?
You want us to compete as 20 $5,000 prizes.
My lover says you're a great coach back in the day.
Join, this is the way the world is now.
My eight-year-old daughter told me all about it.
So a guy can become a girl with no physical changes at all.
Oh, that's called jigger flipping.
I mean, it's a brilliant idea.
Um, first of all, why did you make it?
Well uh, I can't take credit for making the movie or writing it or anything like that.
I play a, you know, a relatively small role in the film and I think my, my entire role is really just.
It's really just me being trolled by the director of the film, who's also CEO of the company, Jeremy Boring, where he decided to write a role for me where I am the exact opposite of who I am in real life, just to make me as uncomfortable as possible.
So I'm playing this kind of left-wing hippie character who's also a big hugger.
I'm big into hugging people in the movie.
But I think the reason why the movie exists is pretty simple.
Number one, it's a really funny idea.
And it's also, it's the kind of movie that needs to exist.
Like this whole concept of men competing against women in women's sports is absurd.
It's ridiculous.
It's laughable.
And if this kind of thing was happening 25 years ago, there would probably be a comedy like this made about it.
But these days, well, they don't really make comedies anymore at all, but they certainly aren't going to make a comedy making fun of this.
So we did.
And the truth is that it really takes the whole argument on the pro-trans athlete side to its logical conclusion.
You know, I've always, when I've interviewed politicians who don't want to speak common sense about this, I say, well, okay, so if you have limitless self-identity and anyone can say, I'm now female, what happens if Usain Bolt or Floyd Mayweather decide they want to be a woman?
Would you be happier than competing against biological females in women's sport?
And they always have to say yes.
And it's always completely preposterous.
Floyd Mayweather would kill women in a ring and Usain Bolt would win the 100 meters women's Olympic final by about 99 meters.
I mean, it's an absurdity, which this film brilliantly lampoons, but it's actually true.
It is true, which is why you don't have to work that hard to make fun of it.
You don't even have to exaggerate that much.
You know, this is one of the things that actually, maybe it makes satire difficult these days, is that the reality itself is so ridiculous that it's usually in satire, you're taking something, you're taking the logic to an extreme extent to show how ridiculous it is.
But in this case, all you're doing is this is what's actually happening in real life.
And I think that what you said there is key, though.
You said that they have to.
You were talking to someone who supports men and women's sports.
They have to.
They have to go along with it.
They have to agree to whatever absurd scenario you throw at them.
And they really do.
They have to.
But I don't think they actually believe it.
I think that the number of people who really deep down believe that it's fair and right for biological males to compete against females in sports.
I mean, the number of people is vanishingly small.
But on the left, they've basically boxed themselves into a corner.
And so they have to defend this.
And we should make them defend it.
Whilst simultaneously trying to pretend that they are pro-women's rights.
I mean, that's the absurdity, because, of course, it's women's rights to fairness and equality that are being dismantled at this altar of virtue signaling nonsense.
And they're also the people that have claimed in the past to care so much about maintaining women's sports.
I mean, that's what Title IX was supposed to be about.
You know, people often accuse me on the left, they'll say that, they'll say, well, you don't even care about women's sports that much.
You're just pretending.
I never said that.
I don't wake up in the morning worrying about women's sports.
I don't watch women's sports.
So in that sense, yeah, I don't care about it in that sense.
But I do care about just what's right.
I care about what's logical, what makes sense.
I care about the kids that are involved in these sports and protecting them.
So, yeah, but if you do pretend that this is something that's very important to you, then the question is, why aren't you there taking up this?
Right, I mean, I care because I have a 12-year-old daughter who's quite sporty, and I don't want her to, if she was to suddenly be very successful at some sport in women's sport, I don't want to have her have a dream killed or a place in a team or, you know, even you see it at an Olympic level.
You see women being deprived of an Olympic place, a coveted, glorious Olympic place by a biological male.
That's just not right.
It's not fair.
It's not right.
It's not equal.
It's none of those things.
And you're also, I also would not want my daughter, I wouldn't want her athletic opportunities taken from her if she decided to get into sports.
I don't want her to be in a position where she has to go along with something that is a total farce.
Like that, it's just, it's wrong to put anybody, especially kids, no matter what the context is, to put them in a position where they have to, where they feel pressured to go along with something like that.
And especially when the pressure is coming from adults.
I mean, it's one thing when you deal with peer pressure as a kid from other kids, but in this case, it's the adults that are using their authority and their power to usher you along in this direction.
I think it's just ridiculous.
Now I want to put two pictures up on the screen for our audience.
These are both Calvin Klein underwear commercials.
One stars a female model and the other one stars the Bears actor Jeremy Alan White.
And what is comical about this is that they both reveal a lot of flesh.
In fact, the man reveals more flesh than the woman.
The female one has been censored by the Advertising Standards Authority because it's overtly sexual.
But the other one is apparently absolutely fine.
I've seen this hypocrisy and double standard on these kind of things for decades, Matt.
It's absurd, isn't it?
It is totally absurd.
For that one, it's hard for me to even understand.
Usually when you have an absurdity like this, you can understand what logic they're going for, even if it doesn't really make sense ultimately.
But in that case, I'm not even sure exactly what would their argument be.
Apparently, the argument was that the ad involving FKA twigged models, physical features rather than the clothing, presented a stereotypical sexual object.
He has less clothes on than she does.
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
But when you're talking about things like decency and modesty, and that's an important conversation to have, but I think in our culture, we don't have a very coherent notion of what that even is or how to apply it.
And that's how you end up with confused situations.
Ridiculously.
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