The assassination of JFK and the Epstein Files are two stories that have piqued the world's interest for some time - and both have spawned all manner of conspiracy theories. Piers Morgan asked those closest to the cases to answer some of the more pressing questions - and here we've rounded up the most interesting responses. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Cozy Earth: Luxury shouldn't be out of reach. Go to https://cozyearth.com/PIERS for up to 40% off Cozy Earth’s best-selling temperature-regulating sheets, apparel, and more. Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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JFK Files and Epstein Secrets00:14:52
President Trump was praised for releasing thousands of files related to JFK's assassination.
Despite promising to do the same with the Jeffrey Epstein files, he was suddenly told nothing else would be released.
Fury ensued, and now the conspiracy theories on all sides have become too loud to ignore.
The noisiest one being that Epstein was a Mossad agent.
Authorities have released thousands of documents previously withheld for national security reasons on the assassination of President Kennedy.
There's no immediate smoking gun that's been reported.
Perhaps it was always fanciful to imagine that the CIA would have faxed or posted details of a plot to eliminate its own commander-in-chief, for example.
What everybody wants to know, though, is whether we are any closer to knowing beyond doubt what really happened and whether there could be more yet to come.
We've assembled a panel of experts and insiders to answer those questions.
We're trying to uncensored, as we said they would after release of the files.
I'm Mike Baker, the host of the President's Daily Brief and a former CIA COVID operations officer, the author and JFK expert, Jefferson Morley, the former Capo in the Colombo crime family, Michael Francis, and joining us for the first time, the former CIA officer and whistleblower, host of CIA Declassified, John Kiriaki.
Well, welcome to all of you.
Jefferson Morley, let me start with you.
You are a JFK expert.
We've had this extraordinary release of so much information.
I don't know how much you've had a chance to actually go through yourself or read about or take in, but what is your sort of current overview about the significance of it?
It's a very significant release.
It's a big break in JFK assassination information.
And there, frankly, Piers, there's a bombshell in here.
Late last night, the National Archives released the declassified testimony of James Angleton, the counterintelligence chief in 1975.
And this document, taken in conjunction with other Angleton documents released yesterday and other material released in the last five years, indicate that Engleton recruited Oswald as a CIA source or contact.
That's the phrase that's used in the document, that he monitored Oswald's movements, political contacts, and personal life for four years, that he had a 180-page file on Oswald on his desk when the president left for Dallas.
So what this raises is the question, a very severe question for proponents of the theory that one man alone killed the president.
Was Angleton just atrociously incompetent?
Or was he actually running an operation involving Oswald?
I think it's the latter.
And there's a document in the JFK collection which has not been released yet, which will decide that and will show whether I'm right or wrong.
So this is a big breakthrough.
There's definitely a bombshell.
People who say there's a nothing burger in here are just unfamiliar with the Angleton documents that have just become public.
This is not a nothing burger.
Mike Baker, obviously former CIA yourself.
I mean, your response to what Jefferson just said.
Yeah, I would, and John may have a different view on this, having also been at the agency, but I would vote for incompetent when it came to Angleton.
And look, we've talked about this before, Pierce.
I think the importance of this, okay, first of all, the importance is we're closer to complete transparency.
I don't think we're there yet, right?
I think there's still some court sealed documents.
I think there's redactions in here.
So it's going to take time.
Documents that haven't been digitized.
But I think that the big thing here is going to be, yes, Oswald was on the CIA's radar, right?
Was he listed as a source?
Well, he lived in Russia, right?
He was clearly a self-described Marxist.
He had been over there for a period of time.
He came back.
He had been down to Mexico visiting the Cuban and Russian embassies.
Of course, he's going to be on the agency's radar for a period of time.
I'm not going to be able to make that connection to say he was a recruited Intel source, but you'd have to go a long ways to go from that, if that's the case, to drawing a connection to he was being directed by the agency, which some people will do.
Again, there's countless theories out there, but you have to build your theories on solid fact.
So I think we're getting closer again to transparency, which I'm all for.
But again, I would caution people to think that we're there.
Well, let me go to the other former CIA officer on our panel, a whistleblower indeed, John Kiriaki.
Welcome to Uncensored.
Thank you.
People just want to know, were the CIA involved in this?
And do we know any more about that suggestion from the release of these files?
Well, first, I'd like to say that I agree with both Mike and Jeff.
I think that we are closer to the truth.
We're not there yet, but recruitment has a very specific meaning at the CIA.
And I'm not convinced yet that Oswald was a recruited asset.
He may have been, but we're not quite there yet.
You know, I think that this Underhill memo is very interesting too.
Certainly, Jeff knows more about it than I do, but the fact that somebody who made a career in Army intelligence and was very close with people in the CIA at senior levels was so distraught about what he thought he knew that he either committed suicide by shooting himself behind the right ear, or the left ear rather, which is extraordinarily difficult, or was killed is something that needs to be followed up.
Well, I actually have that.
I actually have details of that.
I was going to ask you.
So you've raised it.
I'll tell everyone for those who haven't seen it, but there's a memo in there dated June 1967 detailing how the former U.S. Army intelligence officer Gary Underhill fled Washington, D.C., quotes, very agitated, close quotes, the day after Kennedy was shot and spoke with a friend about how a quote small clique within the CIA, close quotes, was behind the assassination.
And six months later, he was found dead in his apartment.
You know, just that snippet alone, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think, whoa, what's happened there?
Who's this guy?
I want to know more about him.
Why was he so agitated?
What had he been told?
Why did he apparently take his life?
I mean, these are, you know, if we don't get the answers, at the very least there, right There is enough of information, I would say, to get a lot of people running around.
Yeah.
Yeah, agreed.
Agreed.
And it's one of those questions that we don't yet have the answer to.
Although I will say that it is consistent with what so many people, including Oliver Stone, have said over the years, that while the Kennedy assassination was likely not a CIA plot, that there may have been elements within the CIA who were so angry with Kennedy over his failure to call for air cover during the Bay of Pigs, for example, or as this memo implies, or not even implies,
but comes out and says, the CIA or elements of the CIA may have been involved in some kind of criminal activity.
It bears investigation.
Yeah.
Michael Francis, welcome back to our sense.
It was good to have you.
One of the files includes a memo from the CIA's St. Petersburg station dated November 20th, 1991, which said the KGB, a former security agency for the Soviet Union, watched JFK's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, closely, and they commented on his marksmanship and said he was a poor shot when he tried target firing in the USSR as it was then.
Again, a really fascinating bit of information because if he was a poor shot, how did he manage to pull off the extraordinary accuracy of three bullets, two of which killed John F. Kennedy?
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Well, you know, Pierce, I can only say this, and I've been saying this consistently over the past 25, 30 years that I've been in the know on this.
And that is, I heard my entire life from 1963 on that the mob was involved in this hit.
I've heard it from the right kind of people.
There's no question that everybody in that life hated the Kennedys, specifically Robert Kennedy and Joe Kennedy, because a deal was cut during the presidential election with Kennedy and Nixon that the White House, the Department of Justice, would lay off of the mob, and Robert Kennedy did just the opposite.
And from what I was told, somebody in government, I don't know who it was, most likely I would say the CIA, since this would have been the third time that the CIA approached the mob for help.
They did it in World War II.
They did it again when they wanted to assassinate Cashro.
These are facts.
They came again, and for some reason, Lee Harvey Oswell needed to be silenced.
And they came to us and we were more than happy to oblige them in that regard.
Jack Ruby, who 100% was a mob associate, going back to the days of Capone and Ocardo in Chicago, and then Carlos Marcelo in New Orleans, and also his connections in Dallas.
He was the one designated to silence Oswald.
I've heard that consistently my whole life from the right people, people in the know.
There's no reason for them to brag about this.
Normally, they wouldn't say anything when they're involved in a hit.
But I've heard this from my father, who was the underboss at that time, to Joe Colombo and to others involved.
It was consistent knowledge within our life.
So, and I said this before, Pierce: if they try to downplay Jack Ruby's role and say that he wasn't associated with the mob in any of these confidential classified documents, then I wouldn't believe much of what's stated in there because he 100% was, and that was common knowledge.
Well, before I go to Jefferson, there, just to respond to that, on that specific point about his shooting capability, I imagine you're fairly proficient with firearms, Michael.
To actually shoot somebody in a moving car from where Lee Harvey Oswald was, I would imagine takes a pretty high level of proficiency.
So, would you think it's significant if the Russians have been watching him that his target practice was way off?
Yeah, I think sorry, that was for Michael Francis.
I'll come back to you, Mike.
One second.
Sure.
Yeah, I agree with that.
You have to be very proficient to shoot somebody, to shoot a moving target like that.
So, I think that's a correct observation.
Okay, Mike, you wanted to say something on that?
Yeah, look, first of all, I may be mistaken on this.
I think Hoswald had his marksman badge, which you can either consider important or not, depending on the qualification standards that you set.
But I've been down there and spent a fair amount of time at the plaza and up in the book depository looking and recreating that shot.
It's not a difficult shot.
I've talked about this before.
You know, the wind was not a factor.
It was a very clear day.
He'd wrecked the site well before the vehicle's moving in line with you.
It's an open top vehicle.
From a shooter's perspective, that's not a tough shot.
Again, I'm not drawing any conclusions from it.
I'm just saying, from an operational perspective, not a difficult shot.
Okay, Jefferson, on the mob point that Michael's been very steadfast about this, that clearly it was openly known and discussed in mob circles that Jack Ruby was acting on their behalf and this was a revenge against Bobby Kennedy, who had basically, in their eyes, betrayed them.
Is there anything that you've seen so far in the files concerning the mob generally?
I have not searched for organized crime.
One of the problems is that the archives did not make these documents searchable.
So you really have to go through them one by one.
And I have not seen organized crime material in there.
But I think Michael's absolutely right that that is the organized crime component of Kennedy's assassination, the elimination of the chief witness.
I want to go back to one thing, though, that John said before.
You know, we talk about this atmosphere.
What we've learned over the years is that the story of a lone gunman, some crazy guy who came out of nowhere and no one knew anything about him, that's just not true.
Okay.
And when I say Engleton recruited Oswald as a source or contact, that's not an inference of mine.
I'm quoting from a document where Engleton describes what was the criteria for putting somebody on his mail surveillance program.
And he says in this newly declassified document, the sole purpose, the sole purpose was to see if that person could be recruited as a source or contact.
Mossad Recruitment Criteria Revealed00:04:33
That shows that the most likely explanation for Engleton taking an interest in Oswald in 1959 was to recruit him as a source or contact.
And the fact that he then maintained observation surveillance of Oswald for the next four years supports that.
So, you know, what was going on here?
Engleton was running a counterintelligence operation involving Oswald.
And I think that's what we're going to learn if we get all of the JFK documents.
He wasn't just watching him and being incompetent.
He was running an operation and being very competent because that operation is still secret.
There are lots of other CIA-related bits and pieces throughout the files.
One of them is a CIA memo describing Oswald phoning the Soviet embassy asking for a visa while in Mexico City in late September, early October 1963.
He also visited the Cuban consulate in Mexico City, seeking a travel visa so he could wait there for a Soviet visa.
And more than a month before the assassination, he drove back to the U.S. through a crossing point at the Texas border.
I mean, Mike, let me come to you on that.
What should we read into that activity?
Yeah.
Well, look, he was desperate to be part of the revolution, right?
We know that.
Again, you have to be a little bit careful in terms of how you define recruitment, as Jeffrey said, as John has pointed out, and what that means.
You can infer lots of things from that.
But somebody of Oswald's activities, of his background, of where he's going, his belief system, are you going to look at him from an, again, not drawing conclusions, but from an operational perspective, are you going to look at him as a potential target, as whether a recruitment target or a potential occasional contact, a source of information?
Are you going to want to know what he's doing?
Has he been recruited by the other side?
So there's a lot of reasons why Oswald is on the screen and to what degree that was locked down into a traditional classic sense of recruitment and running an operation.
I don't know.
I was a toddler at the time.
So, you know, I don't think they were using me for that purpose.
But I think what we are looking at here, one of the things that will come out of all of this, once all this material is sifted through, and it's going to take some time, is there was a failure, regardless of what status Oswald was, there was a failure between the agency and the FBI to lock him down, knowing what he was doing, knowing his activities, not being on him, not sharing that information, probably.
There was turf wars going on between the agency and the FBI, not sharing that information with the Bureau.
That's going to come out.
And I think part of that is why some of these documents remain hidden because it's embarrassing.
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In a special edition of Uncensored, we're taking a deep dive into the good, the bad, and the ugly history of an agency whose founding motto was, By deception, thou shalt do war.
Joining me for what will be a fascinating conversation is the former head of the Mossad between 1999 and 2001, Danny Yatom, former CIA agent and the host of CIA Declassified on UNIFYD TV, John Kiriaku, the author of Provoked, how Washington Started the New Cold War with Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine, Scott Horton, and Harvard law professor and author of The Preventative State, Alan Dershowitz.
Iran Nuclear Standoff Explained00:05:37
Well, thank you all for joining me.
Danny Yatom, let me start with you because you actually ran Mossad for two years from 1999 to 2001.
For those who don't know what Mossad is, how would you best describe it?
Well, I will describe it as almost the best intelligence and security organization in the world.
And if I exaggerate, and it is not the best one, it is one of the three best ones.
And in terms of what Mossad does on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, what is the majority of Mossad time spent doing?
There are a few main goals that Mossad should achieve during the years.
One is to fight terrorism, mainly out of the boundaries of the state of Israel.
The second one is to fight non-conventional capabilities and to make sure that hostile countries and enemy countries will not have nuclear capability.
And nowadays we are talking about the possibility that Iran will acquire a nuclear capability.
And Mossad was one, maybe one of the most important goals or missions of the Mossad is to make sure that Iran never will have a nuclear capability or any other non-conventional weaponry.
And in addition to it, it deals with gathering strategic information or strategic intelligence and enter it into the process of decision-making by the prime minister and his team.
Okay, Scott Horton, do you think Mossad is a force for good or not?
Well, they serve Israel's interests, which is not the same thing as America's interests at all.
And on the topic of Iran's nuclear program, for example, they forged what was purported to be an Iranian scientist's so-called smoking laptop back in the W. Bush years.
And they pretended that this laptop proved that Iran had a secret nuclear weapons program.
And all of it was eventually debunked, but it helped heighten the risk of war between Iran and the United States over this alleged nuclear weapons threat.
And as we talked about on the show last week, Piers, Iran has a latent nuclear capability.
They've proven that they've mastered the fuel cycle, but the Ayatollah has said he doesn't want nuclear weapons.
And America's intelligence agencies and Israel's intelligence agencies have continually reaffirmed that they have not made the decision and changed that decision.
Essentially, I think the consensus is among the reasonable experts on this, is that if we don't threaten them, and especially if we don't attack them, then they're not going to make nukes.
If we do attack them, they might.
And they're saying, essentially, if you don't attack us, we won't.
So it's a standoff, and we could leave it at that.
I mean, they have mastered the fuel cycle literally 20 years ago in 2005.
They started spinning these centrifuges and proving that they can enrich uranium-235.
And so I'm not saying that Ayatollah is the most responsible player in the world or anything like that, but it's clearly heightening tensions against them, which increases the threat that they would then make the decision to break out toward a nuclear weapon, and then we would have Israel lead the United States into another disastrous war in the Middle East.
Alan Deshwis, you're shaking your head there.
Well, should Israel really trust and depend on the possibility that maybe Iran is not going to develop a nuclear weapon?
Just two days ago, Ayatollah Khamani said he was determined to destroy Israel.
Rafsanjani, the former liberal head of Iran, said if Iran develops a nuclear bomb and drops it on Tel Aviv, it will kill 3 million Jews, and Israel is a one-bomb state.
It will end Israel.
Israel will then retaliate and drop a bomb on Tehran.
It will kill 10 million Muslims.
But the trade-off will be worth it because it will be end of the Zionist entity and Islam would still survive.
Life is always a question of probabilities, possibilities.
And in my new book, The Preventive State, I go through all the options that governments have to try to prevent likely, sometimes even unlikely, scenarios.
And the CIA, as well as the Mossad, are there to minimize the likelihood of devastating experiences.
You ask if a Mossad is good or if it's evil.
I actually defended two young men who were arrested, Mossad agents in Cyprus, back in the 1990s.
And I got a letter from the former head of the Mossad, the man who preceded the guest.
And here's the way he ended the letter.
Justifying Intelligence Operations00:03:54
And this tells you everything you need to know.
May we all live to see the day when a profession such as mine gives way to more pleasant occupations.
Still, there is still some time and a way to go before this comes about.
Look, we know the Mossad is necessary.
The question of whether it's good, evil, intermediate, those are matters of degree and opinion.
But the idea that Israel, one of the smallest nations and the most hated nations in the world, one of the most frequently attacked nations, attacked since even before it was established, could do without the Mossad is preposterous.
The Mossad saves lives, Israeli lives, American lives, European lives.
It prevents terrorism.
And like all intelligence agencies, it does things we wish it didn't have to do.
As the former head of the Mossad said, we hope for a day when that profession is not necessary.
But tragically, we're not even close to that.
So two and a half cheers for Mossad.
It does a great job.
It's more like the CIA than it is like any other intelligence agency.
And on balance, it does a great deal of good, not only for Israel, but for the world.
I mean, Alan, the Israeli historian, author, and politician Michael Bar-Zohar said of the Mossad, the dirtiest action should be carried out by the most honest men.
Does the end justify the means to you?
You're a very, very high-profile and very highly reputed lawyer.
Are you comfortable with the way that the Mossad has conducted itself over the decades from a legal perspective?
Or sometimes, is it justified for the Mossad to behave illegally if the ends justify the means?
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It depends on what the ends are and what the means are.
If the Mossad could have prevented the Holocaust, if it could have prevented October 7th, if it could have prevented some of the other devastating events, the killing of so many American Marines in the barracks in Lebanon, then you might say, yes, the means, even if they sometimes exceeded the limits of acceptable law, would be justified.
If not, I mean, your previous guest talked about the Mossad forging a laptop, but then they went in and they discovered that in fact, the Iranians, although they had promised and had a fatwa against having developed nuclear weapons, were developing nuclear weapons all the time that they promised they weren't.
CIA Spies in Israel Exposed00:15:01
That's not true at all.
The ends don't generally justify the means, depending on the means.
But when the means are calibrated and when the ends are cataclysmic, you sometimes need to take the kind of preventive action that we wish we wouldn't have to take.
We don't live in a perfect world.
We live in a world that has had Holocausts and genocides and all kinds of horrible things to the extent these can be prevented by largely legal activities.
And remember, the vast majority of what the Mossad does just looks up things.
It goes into public and open sources and tries to get the best conceivable intelligence it can.
But it also has to engage in terrible actions.
Yes, it has to kill people who have killed Israelis in order to send a deterrent message.
After the terrible Munich massacres, Golden Meir said every single person who was involved in killing Israeli athletes will be killed.
And the Mossad did it and they made one mistake.
They killed one innocent person.
That's typical of the way intelligence services operate.
Mostly they do preventive action, mostly they do good, and sometimes they overdo it and sometimes they make mistakes.
That's why we have the rule of law.
Okay, John Keriaki, you said this.
We saw, this is the CIA when you were there, we saw what the Israelis were getting away with in these prisons that they had in the West Bank and in Gaza.
Nobody raised any objection at all.
So we thought, well, if the Israelis can do it, we can do it.
The president said we could, and the Justice Department said we could, and so we did.
You've also separately described Mossad saying that it has a negative, disproportionate, and widespread influence on the U.S. national security state.
So you're clearly not a fan of the Mossad.
Why?
Well, the job of really any traditional intelligence service is to recruit spies to steal secrets.
And that's great because every country's leaders need those secrets in order to form the best possible policy.
But when the secrets are being stolen from the U.S., the major U.S. defense contractors, from Capitol Hill, from the U.S. intelligence community, from the State Department, there's a problem there.
I remember when I first joined the CIA, and this is going back 35 years, there was a declared Mossad officer in the Israeli embassy and a declared Shinbet officer, and the FBI was able to identify 187 additional Israeli intelligence officers at work in the United States clandestinely.
I would say, why?
Why would they steal secrets when we give them 99% of everything that we already have?
Doesn't the United States steal secrets from Israel too?
Of course they do.
No, actually, no.
The Israelis were off limits to us at the CIA.
We were not permitted to do it.
I don't believe that.
I don't believe that for one second.
I have information definitely that the United States has stolen secrets.
I know it for a fact, and I don't think you can credibly dispute that.
Well, you know, Jeff Stein.
Go ahead.
Well, Jeff Stein, the great intelligence beat reporter from Newsweek, would report every year on an intelligence report that the FBI would put out about the worst counterintelligence threats in the United States, and it was Russia, China, and Israel.
And eventually, what happened was it caused such a scandal after time after time of this coming out that Dianne Feinstein ended up changing the rules so that they didn't have to issue the report anymore, so that Jeff Stein wouldn't be able to report on it anymore.
But they were alleged by the FBI counterintelligence division to be the most damaging spies in America, only after our supposed adversaries, Russia and China.
In fact, at the CIA we were talking about the best person.
Well, hang on, hang on.
Hang on one second.
I want to ask Danny, actually, because you ran Mossad.
Did Mossad steal secrets from the CIA, for example?
As far as it was published, nowadays no, the answer is no.
Probably it was the situation until the Polar Defair.
Once the Polar Defair happened and it became a big crisis that influenced the worst, the situation, the relations between Israel and the United States, the Mossad stopped working on an American soil.
On the contrary, I don't know if you know, but there are very, very close and intimate relations between Mossad and CIA and between Shinbet and FBI.
And we are working together.
We are sharing information.
And as a matter of fact, our best ally is the United States.
And our best ally to the Mossad is the CIA.
John, I want to come to you about something that you stated, which is that you believe that Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad agent.
I believe that he was an Israeli access agent.
You know, if a foreign intelligence agency wants information from very highly placed sources or from very important sources, they're not going to be able to recruit those sources directly.
So you recruit somebody who has access to those sources.
And I think that that's most likely what Jeffrey Epstein was.
I know that's a good idea.
Jeffrey Epstein.
I was in Israel writing a book, and one day Jeffrey Epstein called me.
I was his lawyer.
And he said, I've never been to Israel.
I'd like to come there and meet some people.
Can you get a lunch together for me with six of Israel's smartest people?
And so I arranged a lunch in the Tel Aviv Hotel at which the president of the Supreme Court, the dean of this, the dean of that, he didn't know any Israelis.
He absolutely didn't know anybody.
I took him on a trip to the Shook.
We bought a couple of souvenirs.
He got on the plane that night.
He knew Aye-Brock afterward as a matter of they did business together, but not when he was the prime minister at all.
And the idea that the Mossad would retain somebody like Epstein is just preposterous.
Epstein was what he is, but he was not a Mossad agent.
And the idea is so conspiratorial and so absurd.
It just focuses on, because Epstein is famous and infamous.
Oh, Israel must have something to do because it's Jewish.
At bottom, it's a poor anti-Semitic notion.
If you're Jewish, you must have some connection with Israel and you must be doing bad things and you must be a spy for Israel.
It is so preposterous, so absurd.
Epstein was many things, but he was not a very Mossad.
If I were a Mossad officer, I would have targeted him from my first day on the job because he had access to Israel.
He would have been fired then.
We would have been fired.
Absolutely not.
Important people with important information.
You are dealing with fake information.
Let's go to somebody who may know the answer for sure.
Danny.
Yeah.
Yes.
Talk to us about Jeffrey Epstein.
Remember, I reiterate what I said some 15 minutes ago.
Since the Pollard affair, we do not dare to do anything related to espionage in the United States of America.
Were you the guy that tapped Bill Clinton's phone?
I know Clinton very well because I met him, President Clinton, because I met him a lot of times when I was the chief of staff of Barack and participated in all the rounds of talks with the Syrians, Palestinians, Jordanians, and the Americans.
I was part of the group being in Camp David.
I know him very, very well.
I appreciate very, very well President Clinton.
And I think that he has all the other presidents as well assisted essentially the state of Israel.
You have to understand, we are a small country.
We are surrounded by enemies.
Till now, all the terror organizations are with the aim to kill as many Israelis and as many Americans, by the way, as possible.
The Iranians call us the little Satan, and you they call the big Satan.
So we need to have very good and professional intelligence apparatuses.
But Danny, let me ask you.
Danny, let me tell you.
Danny, let me just jump in.
Yes.
Danny, let me ask you something.
As a former head of Mossad, if Jeffrey Epstein had been working with Mossad, would you even tell us?
No.
Would you admit it?
Exactly.
How do we know?
As I understand.
As far as...
You have to believe.
How do you know that there is God?
You just said you wouldn't tell me.
If you believe, God exists.
Yeah.
It is a question of belief.
Either you believe me.
But you just told me you wouldn't tell me if he had.
I did.
Speaking of God.
I did not meet.
I did not abstain ever.
I know him.
I don't know him.
Sorry.
I don't know him.
I don't think that's a good question.
Let me give you a fact.
Let me give you a fact.
Let me ask Alan.
Because it was a stupid question.
Okay, we're talking over each other again.
Hang on, hang on.
Everyone's talking again.
Hang on, Alan.
Alan, let me ask you a question.
Let me ask you a question.
Alan, let me ask you a question.
Have you ever worked with Mossad?
Yes, I represented Mossad to help get two people out of Cyprus.
I did it pro bono, and I got this letter from the head of the Mossad thanking me for doing it.
Let me tell you another thing.
I was Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer.
I know everything about him.
If he had worked for the Mossad, he would have told me that, and I would have used it as a way of trying to reduce his sentence.
He didn't tell me that.
He told me nothing like that.
So there's no way in which he worked for the Mossad and didn't tell me that he worked for the Mossad, because I could have used that to get him an even shorter sentence than the one he got.
There is no possibility that he did that.
Of course, I'm so proud of the fact that I helped to get two people out.
Let me tell you what happened.
They were arrested by Cyprus on the theory that they were working as spies for Turkey.
Those were the days when Turkey was close to Israel.
I was able to prove that, in fact, they were there in order to prevent an attack from terrorists on Israeli people who were coming as tourists and sailing their boats there.
As soon as I was able to persuade the Cypriot authorities that that was the case, they freed them.
And that was a wonderful moment.
They came home in time for Rosh Hashanah for the Jewish holiday.
And I got this wonderful letter from the head of the Mossad saying, thank you.
I hope someday we will no longer have the profession I need to have.
That's the attitude of Israelis.
We wish everybody wishes there wouldn't be war.
There wouldn't be fighting.
Remember what Bill Clinton said?
They offered the Palestinians at Camp David 96% plus 4% of Israel plus all of Gaza.
And Arafat walked away and started the Intifada.
It's all the Palestinian leadership fault.
No fault of the people.
I'm going to bring things back to Mossad.
Ask Bill Clinton.
He'll tell you the same thing.
Yeah.
Okay, but we're moving away from Mossad.
I want to just ask Danny before we conclude this.
Danny, the Mossad has done some extraordinary things.
You know, the way it tracked down the Nazi, Adolf Eichmann, in 1960, down to Argentina and brought him to trial in Israel was seen as a landmark moment in justice for the Holocaust, of course.
Scott, you mentioned Ronan Bergman.
He has detailed Operation Wrath of God, when the Mossad tracked down and killed multiple Black September operatives after the attack at the 1972 Munich Olympics, which went on for many years.
And as Alan rightly said, there was one mistaken killing of a Moroccan waiter in Norway, which was part of the incident called the Lillehammer Affair.
But there's no doubt that the overall operation Wrath of God was enormously successful.
And it showed that the Mossad never gives up in tracking down Israel's enemies.
The more recent incident which has happened, Danny, which people presume to have been orchestrated by the Mossad, was of course the Pager attack on 3,000 members of Hezbollah.
Can you confirm that that was an operation by the Mossad?
I can confirm that it was an operation of the Mossad because the Prime Minister of the State of Israel confirmed it a few weeks ago.
And how long would something like that take to prepare?
And how much patience does the Mossad have, whether tracking down individual enemies or taking on a terrorist organization like Hezbollah?
It is an extraordinary operation.
It was very, very successful and it helped us to crack down Hezbollah.
It takes a long time.
You need to collect all the information.
You need to collect all the intelligence that possible.
You need to find the right people that you recruit in order to help you to do that and debt and debt.
And at the end, it is the way Mossad thinks.
This is the thinking out of the box.
Therefore, so many people appreciate it and admire Mossad due to such an operation.
Prince Andrew Scandal Doubts00:14:59
All right.
Do you think the...
Well, let me just ask you actually, Danny, before I go to the others, but do you think that that was the greatest operation by the Mossad that you can recall?
Or was there something that you thought was better?
No, I cannot say that this one is the greater or the most big operation.
There are many.
Most of them are not known.
And this is the way it should be.
We should speak about Mossad and operation of Mossad as little as possible.
You can imagine that there are many other operations, some at the magnitude of this Pager operation that you don't know and you will never know.
And not necessarily it is an operation that killed people.
It might be an operation to collect information, vital information, and to make out of it an intelligence that helps us, this intelligence, to secure the state of Israel.
There are many unanswered questions about Epstein, the source of his wealth, the circumstances of his death, the reasons why so many powerful people kept his sinister secrets and have not been made accountable for any association with him.
Perhaps inevitably, many people aren't satisfied with the explanation of Virginia's death either.
A lawyer in Australia said this week that there are big question marks.
One of my guests tonight has always maintained amid much criticism that there are big question marks over Virginia Duffray's story.
And she says she now has new evidence that will support her case.
Well, John Meyer is Prince Andrew's former girlfriend, Lady Victoria Hervey, royal biographer Tom Bauer, host of The Nerve with Maureen Callan, Maureen Callan, and also speaking to lawyer Spencer Coovin, who represented nine of Jeffrey Epstein's victims.
Just to set this up, the most damning evidence against Prince Andrew about the claims from Virginia Dufray was a photograph taken in London with his arm around her when she was 17 years old.
Do you have a picture of the actual Daily Mail on?
Because the scale, or here it is, but it's right, but with Ghillaine Maxwell in the background, it's a famous, infamous picture now.
And the point of the picture being that appeared to have them all in the house in London around the time that this abuse was said to have taken place.
Now, what is it that you've done about this picture to try and, as you put it, investigate it?
Yeah, I just want to set the scene for what happened on this night.
So it was actually the coldest week since the 1960s at that point.
It had been raining all day.
You can look this up in the weather, freezing.
The window wasn't like that window would never have been open.
Number one, they would not have been wearing these clothing.
She wears this outfit in San Trapez a couple months later.
They were not at Tramp Nightclub.
There were no photos of them at Tramp Nightclub.
He doesn't drink.
Andrew has never carried a wallet in his life.
He's got a wallet in his back pocket.
There's many pictures of Jeffrey Epstein with the same trousers.
Jeffrey did carry a big wallet in his back pocket.
So you're saying the picture was faked?
There's nothing real about this image, Piers.
Like, so we can start with when I did go into the house.
So tell me, so when did you first go into this property?
A year ago.
And how did you get access?
I posed as a buyer.
So they're selling it?
Yeah.
Who owns this property?
Now it's on the market, but it wasn't on the market.
Who is the owner now?
I don't know.
Has it changed hands a few times?
Do we know that?
No, so it was sold, it was only sold once.
And he's now actually got it on the market.
Okay, so we're watching footage of you.
You went in with a friend, I think, and this is you walking through the house.
Now, what is the significance of what you think you discovered on this trip?
Because you've been in there twice.
You're going to see this landing, which I got photos of, but that's the landing.
Like, it's so small, Piers, that you don't, you know, if people would actually be able to get access to that house, literally, I walked up the stairs and we couldn't even find this landing because it's so tiny.
Like, you walk up, I was with two people.
I was with a photographer friend and another person.
And I've known the photographer for 30 years.
We did a shoot together when I was about 18.
And he's kind of helped me on this project a bit over the last two years, doing some interviews and things with witnesses.
When we got up there, it was like this bit here, so he is only five foot.
So we're showing pictures here.
This is one of your friends who is standing where Andrew is.
Yeah, so he's standing there.
What's the point you're making?
I'm showing the scale.
So he's five foot eight, five foot nine at tallest with spiky hair.
And he doesn't have a gap between him and the banister like Andrew does.
It's like, okay, he's not totally on the side, but he's a lot of smaller guy than Andrew.
You can't fit a man like Andrew and half of Virginia in that space.
It's just not possible.
Like this, this bit here's only 60.
So that's the camera?
So this banister here, this is only, this is 60 centimetres only.
Do you know what 60 centimeters is if we had a measuring tape to show you how small that is?
I mean, so let me ask you a question.
They're basically making him out like he's anorexic.
Okay, look, I couldn't fit in there with another girl.
At the very least, this is actually interesting because I've never seen independent pictures taken that way.
No one has seen this picture, by the way.
Right, which is very interesting, right?
Yeah.
So my question for you is, if, as you say, it's very easy to at least cast a lot of doubt over this picture, which was the key crux of the evidence against Andrew, why did Andrew end up paying a reported $11 million?
He didn't have these pictures, Idiot.
He could have got them, surely.
You know what?
I just, I think he was given really, really bad advice.
So this here, so this shows the measurements.
Show that's the camera again.
So actually, like, when you zoom in on that, you can actually zoom in and it's 61 inches all the way across.
Now, that corroborates the information we got on video when we measured.
We have the same basis.
So your overview is what?
My overview is that this is a collage.
Also, Virginia says that this part of the photo, well, she says the photo was done with a throwaway camera.
Now, a throwaway camera back in 2001 cannot do this perfect symmetrical, like also the flash in the background, that is actually thought to be the light from the pub outside, but this is a collage.
So it was this frame, and then they were collaged and basically put in, but their scale is about.
Does Prince Andrew know you've got this?
He knows that, well, I speak to his ex-wife.
Sarah Ferguson.
Yeah.
And you told her about these pictures?
She knows that I got into the house.
So Andrew knows that you've been in the house?
I suspect so.
And do they share your view that they think this is materially interesting evidence that may support his version?
Anyone that sees this would think this is pretty interesting.
Tom, before I go to Maureen, what's your immediate reaction?
The point is, where did these photographs originally come from?
And as I recall, it was the Daily Mail journalist who found.
No, no, no, I got given these.
Hold on.
These are my photos.
You mean the original picture?
Oh, okay.
So this is the other thing, right?
So Virginia's photo, it was actually verified that actually the FBI never received a hard copy.
They only got a copy put on a disc, so they never got to see the back of it.
Okay, Tom, just as a journalist, do you find this intriguing?
Do you find it incredible?
Because I understand the story.
The original photograph.
It would have really short legs.
It would have no legs.
You know, you can mock up your photographs too.
The point is that photographs clearly can be mocked up.
This is not.
This is real.
This girl's five foot two.
That's on financial.
Yeah.
She had the photograph and she gave it to the journalist unsolicited.
The journalist turned up at her door.
It wasn't an FBI source.
It was her photograph.
And I believe it to be true.
I don't believe.
It's sweet.
It's sweet that you believe that.
I believe it because I just don't see who would have the motive to construct.
That's what we all want to know.
But you want to know because you don't believe it's true.
I don't want to know because I just don't believe that there's anybody.
I want to know who put Jeffrey.
Let me just speak one thing.
Sorry, sorry.
There's nobody who has the motive, in my view, to originally put in these three people as a collage because what would be the purpose?
Also, her lawyer, David Boyd, said he was sceptical when he first met her, just because he's a lawyer and always is, but he made her take a polygraph and she passed with flying colours.
Well, that possibly is.
That's what I said.
But that is also possible because she's gone through so much trauma.
Okay.
Do you believe anything that is about Andrew or not?
A lot of the girls did not tell the truth.
Who's the great conspirator?
Who's organizing this conspiracy of yours?
It's the intelligence three-letter word agencies that are wrapped up in this that I'm not going to go into right now because I would rather stay alive.
But what I'm saying is...
Victoria, do you not have any qualms about Virginia's family hearing you just dismiss everything about her as I think Robert Dufray would agree with me?
What about her father, for example?
She was estranged from her mother and her father.
She didn't estrange her father.
She was.
Look, she's on 30 million, right?
That is what she's worth.
Her father, he came out a month ago saying he's basically on the doll, like, and he couldn't even afford a flight to Australia to see her.
Why would you say that in such a disparaging manner if that's the case?
It's very sad.
It's very sad that obviously, you know, she didn't help the family, right?
I mean, this father sounded desperate.
Well, look, we can clear this up because I'm going to be joined now exclusively by Virginia Duffray's father, Skye Roberts, who's giving his first interview on camera about this.
Mr. Roberts, thank you very much indeed for joining me on Uncensored.
And my deepest sympathies to you and your entire family over what has happened to Virginia.
Thank you.
It's an awful tragedy and it ends a life of tragedy in many ways for your daughter.
First of all, tell me about your reaction when you heard that she'd taken her life.
Well, first of all, I couldn't even believe it.
I mean, I started crying right away.
I'm still crying.
I can't believe that this is happening.
It just, it's impossible.
And then for them to say that she committed suicide, there's no way that she did.
Somebody got to her.
Let me just ask you, Mr. Roberts, how much contact did you have with Virginia in recent years?
Not a lot.
I haven't spoken to her in years, but I think that she basically liked to try to protect me because she knew a lot of things about a lot of powerful people.
And to me, she's just protecting me that I don't get involved in any of it.
Like I say, when she was here, we were together all the time and doing a lot of things together.
She was on her own to go against Jeffrey Epstein, Glene Maxwell, Prince Andrew.
She was on her own this whole time.
You know, I'm not saying she, it's a way to earn money or anything, but she's just trying to make these people pay for what they did.
Did she ever talk to you about Prince Andrew before it became public knowledge?
Yes.
Yes.
She was there in London with Prince Andrew and Miss Maxwell.
Because one of my other guests here in the studio in London has produced photographs from the property where that famous infamous picture was taken of Virginia with Prince Andrew and Ghillaine Maxwell in the background and says that it proves to her that the picture must have been faked in some way.
But do you have any doubt that Virginia was there at the time and had sex with Prince Andrew?
Personally, I don't have proof of it, but Virginia sent the original picture.
So I know it wasn't faked, but the original picture of Prince Andrew and her with Ghelaine Maxwell in the background.
So I know that's true that she did, she was there with him.
Sorry, she showed you that picture, did you say?
Yes.
My mom had an 8x10.
And when did she first show you that?
Many years ago when it happened.
But before it became public knowledge.
Yes.
I knew nothing about it.
I mean, I didn't even know she was, you know, doing all these things for Jeffrey Epstein.
How did you feel when you discovered that?
Oh, I was really angry with Jeffrey Epstein because she had told me later on that, you know, he had threatened that if she had said anything, that he had the power to do anything he wanted to to her family.
I mean, I met Jeffrey Epstein.
I wouldn't let her go to work for him unless I met him.
But he seemed like a normal person.
I mean, he came out.
I went to his mansion and he came out in jeans and a t-shirt and just acted like a regular person.
So I had no idea.
I mean, you don't know who you're talking to.
Piers Morgan on Epstein00:00:24
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