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May 30, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
01:08:33
20250530_biggest-scandal-in-democratic-history-watergate-vs
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Diminishing Watergate's Shadow 00:09:17
Who do you think history will judge more harshly, Biden or Nixon?
We all know this scandal is just beginning to roll out.
We aren't even close to getting the full picture.
To me, the scandal is the Democratic Party and the staff.
You know who was screaming at the top of their lungs that they wanted different choices for president?
The voters.
I know that you guys care a lot about the story, but you also care about access.
And Jake Tapper has done this multiple times, but we are missing all of the stories that actually affect people.
Nixon versus Biden?
It's almost laughable.
Donald Trump, the president of the United States, hit on this very well in that speech he made in Real, where he basically said the days of the kind of Western neocons, thinking the way the Middle East would develop would be you'd bomb it and then rebuild it.
They gone.
The epicenter of wealth creation at the moment is in the Middle East.
There is style, there is Panache.
They've never been intimidated, any of these threatened.
They just got on with their job.
Are you jealous that Qatar is supplying the Americans with the new plane for Air Force One?
Or are you very glad to have dodged the PR bullet that has come their way?
These things have a habit of catching the eye of the world, et cetera, whichever way you want to go.
But it makes life interesting.
I've been in Dubai this week for the Arab Media Summit.
Later in the show, we have a fascinating interview with Sir Tim Clark, boss of Emirates, one of the world's biggest airlines, who has some remarkable insights on air safety, Trump's tariffs, and the U.S. president's new plane.
The presidential scandal that many cited as the biggest in the United States history is Richard Nixon's role in the infamous Watergate break-ins.
However, the shocking details revealed in Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson's new book on President Biden's cognitive decline whilst in office and the conspiracy to cover it all up could now well rival it, or as I believe, be even worse.
Here's what Tapper himself said when I pressed him on it on Uncensored.
It is a scandal.
Yes.
It is.
It is without question and maybe even worse than Watergate in some ways.
Right.
Because Richard Nixon was in control of his faculties when he wasn't drinking.
Well, in this special edition of Uncensored, we've assembled some real political, academic, and media heavyweights to debate the question, Biden or Nixon?
Who scandalized the U.S. presidency more on my panel?
The former anchor of Meet the Press and now host of the Chuck Todd cast, Chuck Todd.
Washington journalist and editor of the JFK Facts on Substack, Jefferson Morley.
Jeff Shepard, who lived through Watergate, is the youngest lawyer on President Nixon's White House staff.
He's now the most prominent critic of the Watergate prosecutions.
And Johanna Masker, the former aide to President Obama and host of the Press Advance podcast.
Well, welcome to all of you.
Chuck Todd, let me start with you.
You've covered a lot of scandals in your time, a lot of presidencies in your time.
I was genuinely fascinated when I pressed Jake Tapper, because there's a line at the end of the book, and I'm sure you've read it, where they talk about this is not a Watergate.
And they kind of leave it floating.
This whether they think it's better or worse.
Jake actually conceded to me that actually he thinks it probably is worse.
What is your view?
Well, I think we have to have proof that there was a belief of cognitive decline and intentional cover-up, right?
We're still not there.
There's certainly plenty of evidence that he wasn't really up to doing the job, that he was going to struggle to have a second term, that his behavior in the first term was indicative of somebody that couldn't handle the modern rigors of the presidency.
So, and if you look at the damage Donald Trump is doing to our current economy or the current relationships around the world, do you hold Biden accountable for that?
I know plenty of Democrats who do, right?
So it's almost like every piece of bad information or bad decision-making that Donald Trump makes only ratchets up the anger among some on the left at Joe Biden and his family's selfishness, but more importantly, the staff around, right?
To me, the scandal is the Democratic Party and the staff.
Because you know who was screaming at the top of their lungs that they wanted different choices for presidents?
The voters.
They were ignoring the polling.
They were ignoring what voters were actually saying.
You know, to me, that was the original sin of this mess.
But to equate it, look, I actually think the worst scandal of any president is Teapot Dome and Harding, although we may yet have something that rivals both Watergate and Teapot Dome when this crypto thing collapses on the Trump family.
But for now, I'm not ready to say it's Watergate, but inside the Democratic Party, biggest scandal in their history, arguably in the modern era.
And do you accept, Chuck, as Jake pretty much did and Alex did, that the mainstream media in America, both television, cable, and newspapers and so on, just collectively massively dropped the ball with this.
And that one of the reasons is that there clearly has been an inherent bias against Trump and pro pretty much anyone that might stop him pervading through the mainstream media.
So there wasn't the intent, perhaps, to go looking for the real story as there might have been had it been Trump.
Well, look, I always try to divide it in half because I don't accept the premise that a cable host is a journalist, right?
And there was one cable host in particular that would attack members of the press, attack any columnist that came out and said, Joe Biden doesn't have it.
He shouldn't run again.
And so, but I accept the premise.
Look, where I think the ball was dropped was the White House press corps in that building, right?
That's where, you know, this is the conversation Jake and I have had.
You know, had we been in those chairs, you know, that's where you sort of notice these things.
Where's the president today?
How come he's not coming to talk to us?
That missing relentlessness.
And I think that, you know, I joke, Trump derangement syndrome is something that a lot of people have, right?
It's not just people that are Trump opponents that have it.
Trump fans sometimes have it, right?
They think there's mystical powers in sort of Trump derangement syndrome.
But I do think there were a lot of people in that Biden White House and then some in sort of the intelligentsia of the press, not the day-to-day journalists, who were looking at like, well, yeah, Biden is struggling, but Trump's crazy.
So the choice is kind of impaired Biden versus crazy Trump.
So it became sort of a, it was, that became the rationalization.
I'm not saying it was the right rationalization, but I don't think it was like a collective cover-up more than it was sort of almost human response to, geez, I have a bad idea over here and a worse one over there.
Which do I choose?
Let me bring in Jefferson Morley, historian.
Look, they're both, to me, they're both huge scandals.
I did listen to what Jake said with great interest because he made the point that in Nixon's case, for example, yes, he did a very bad thing.
Yes, he was a party, clearly, an instrumental party to a huge cover-up of a criminal activity.
And that's why he resigned the presidency.
But he was still perfectly compassmentis, albeit, as Jake said, but the caveat when he wasn't drinking too much.
But he was compassmentis.
questioned Nixon's cognitive abilities.
And the question really about the comparison, I guess, is that Joe Biden, clearly from this book, I mean, a lot of it is really like shocking to read, that his cognitive decline was extremely marked and to the point where could he actually be trusted with really important decisions at 2 a.m.
And the answer seems to be from the book's authors, no.
actually.
And that seems to me to be more dangerous than a compass mentors president who's trying to cover up a bit of naughty activity with people trying to nick some information.
You know, I'm not to diminish the watergate, but just to say that if you have a president who's not there, who's not able to make sensible, calm decisions that could affect the entire planet, that seems to me to be a more dangerous scenario.
And therefore, the scandal is greater.
What are your thoughts?
When I think about a scandal, I think about three dimensions.
I think about criminality.
I think about moral corruption.
And I think about financial corruption.
And so when you compare Watergate to Bidengate, let's call it, you know, what do we see?
We don't see criminality in Bidengate.
We see moral corruption, hubris, arrogance, the arrogance of power.
Moral Corruption vs Criminality 00:03:09
We don't see people in it for the money.
That was not really a dimension in Watergate either.
But in Watergate, you definitely had criminality, burglars, wiretapping.
And you also had institutional corruption of the CIA and the FBI.
So, you know, I think you're doing a little too much to diminish Watergate in retrospect.
So to me, Watergate is the bigger scandal.
And then, you know, if you look at the Trump administration in those three dimensions, financial corruption, moral corruption, and criminality, you know, we see all of those.
So I think that Biden Gate is an astonishing scandal.
I do think that there was no desire to dig in.
It was a cultural failing of the press, not just of individuals.
I wasn't covering the press.
I wasn't paying that close attention.
I didn't regard it as my beat at the time.
I remember confiding in a friend when Biden stayed in saying, God, I wish he hadn't done that.
And I think that, you know, now what we see, how many people on the inside knew about this, that's the scandal here.
It's a moral corruption, arrogance of power.
And that's reflected, you know, in the corruption of the press and the failure to dig into this.
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I mean, the most stark thing I think I came up with was I went back over all the columns I wrote in the Biden presidency for the New York Post, many of which I was writing from London.
And, you know, if a Brit in London was writing column after column, as I was, saying that Biden was clearly cognitively impaired, and in fact, in one column two years before the election, saying it may be time to consider a 25th Amendment move, it does beg a belief that the very same questions were not being aggressively and repeatedly asked by American journalists on the airwaves in America.
Anyway, I'd simply put that out there.
The Democratic Party Scandal 00:14:21
I think the failure, Piers, the failure, Piers, was that those conversations weren't being had off camera.
And so, you know, it wasn't like people were competing to get the Biden story about Biden's cognitive decline.
There was this cultural consensus, don't go there.
I think because Chuck said, you know, people said, well, Trump's worse.
So, you know, we'll give Biden a pass on this.
Well, we've, you know, we've had direct quotes, haven't we?
I mean, people like Sam Harris, who's obviously a smart commentator, said, I would rather have had a president in a coma when the duties are executed of the presidency are executed by committee over Trump.
So he'd rather have someone in a coma with a committee making decisions than Trump, which is a pretty staggering thing to say on the record.
There's the expression of moral corruption, you know, that you really don't care about what's right and wrong and all you want is your access to power.
Yeah, which plays into what Chuck said about the Trump derangement syndrome, which I agree, by the way, can work both sides.
Jeff Shepard, I can't think of a better person.
Sorry.
But Piers, maybe your question is, you know, which is the bigger scandal in terms of the president?
Which is the bigger scandal in terms of the press?
You know, the press distinguished itself in Watergate, and the press did not distinguish itself in this.
So for the press, this is a bigger scandal than Watergate.
Yeah, and I agree.
And Jeff's taken a lot of heat for it.
Jake has taken a lot of heat in particular because people are saying, and there's some validity to that, that he should have said a lot of this stuff, not in a book for money after the event, but while it was all happening.
Let me bring in Jeff Shepard.
I can't think, as I said, a better person to make the comparison as someone who worked on Nixon's defense team.
We've got two so far who don't think the Biden scandal was worse than Watergate.
What's your view?
Well, I think they're hedging their bet because, as we all know, this scandal is just beginning to roll out.
We aren't even close to getting the full picture.
Pretty much we've got the full picture on Watergate.
And of course, my views are different from the other people's.
I think Watergate represents the beginning of lawfare, that there were excess, there was more than sufficient press coverage, 52,000 column inches on Watergate, and then characterized by the absence of press inquiry in Bidengate.
The press, and you're trying to shave, well, it was the guys in the correspondence room.
It was not the journalists.
It was not the cable news guys.
Everybody's trying to put distance between them and what seemed obvious to about half of America, that we had a president who was only occasionally lucid and the press didn't want to look into it.
I think the lack of press inquiry, they should have been on this like a dog on the bone.
And I think it's much worse than Watergate.
Dasinating.
Because, you know, I remember, I mean, look, people say, well, how are we to know?
You know, and the White House were lying to us and so on.
You didn't really need to know a lot more than what you saw with your own eyes and heard with your own ears.
I mean, Biden was literally face planting on stages, falling off bicycles, endless verbal gas policy announcements that had to be immediately reversed because they were completely outlandish and so on.
You were punished.
You were punished if you talked about that.
I mean, it was a fierce battle to preserve Biden against and protect him against any inquiry.
And the press went along with it.
I mean, they're going to be explaining this for years and years to come.
When we get to 2028, I don't think the people that were fierce defenders of Joe Biden are going to be cut in a slap.
I think they're still going to have to be explaining away why they didn't care or what they did.
Now, we may not get the kind of stuff that came out in Watergate.
I mean, you remember what Watergate is criminality.
There were 65 cases brought in the district and the prosecutors won 63 of them.
24 members of President Nixon White House staff went to jail.
But a lot of that was trumped up.
A lot of that was blown out of proportion because of lawfare.
We'll see what happens with Biden Gate.
Take Auto Pen.
You know, well, somebody shoved it in the Auto Pen.
We saw what happened.
But somebody had to draft what was being signed.
Where did the orders come from?
How did they trace through on ending up in front of the Auto Pen?
All of that is still to be explored.
There's still a lot of people.
I agree.
I think there's a long way to run on this.
I think a lot more could come out.
Let me bring in Johanna.
I mean, as with Watergate, the real scandal of Biden Gate is the cover-up, isn't it really?
It was going on.
Biden was clearly losing it cognitively, but it was the collective cover-up around him to prevent the truth about his cognitive abilities and sharpness that was the real scandal.
A bit like with Watergate, the actual cover-up became the much bigger scandal than the actual crime itself.
What do you make of it?
You all work with President Obama.
What do you think?
And I worked with a lot of the people who worked for Biden.
And I remember it was right after 2022.
Biden thought that that was a victory for him and he was going to run again.
And it was early 2023.
I saw Ben Labolt, who was the communications director, and I said, are we really going to play weekend at Bernie's here?
Like, I don't want to.
I want a candidate who can defend Democrats.
And he was like, well, you know, you have a couple of weeks.
The president is deciding.
Who would you put up?
And I said, Mark Kelly.
I said a whole host of names.
So there were a lot of us who were concerned.
I remember President Obama, we had a big reunion during this timeframe.
And all of us were talking about how we didn't want Biden to run again.
I do not believe this was a cover-up.
And I actually think that is a media created scandal now because Jake Tapper wants to sell books.
So I grew up in Galesburg, Illinois.
I came of age during the Clinton impeachment.
I have watched the media attention go to scandal after scandal while we lost jobs.
We lost Maytag.
Our education suffered.
We had health care prices skyrocketing and people losing their house because of healthcare.
And we are distracted by some fake cover-up.
I read the whole book.
I wanted to know what did Jake Tapper find in this cover-up?
And honestly, it was all out there the entire time.
He should have covered it then.
Lots of people should have covered it then.
Sure.
But here we've got a situation where we're still talking about it.
I mean, in California, we've got a huge gubernatorial race for the person who's going to be in charge of the fourth largest economy in the world.
And people are asking these gubernatorial candidates, what do they make of the Biden cover-up?
I want to know what they're going to do for my son's education.
And I am tired of us continue to play into this when everybody saw it.
It was weekend at Bernie's.
We shouldn't have done it.
And now we have Trump.
But I want to know what our political leaders are going to do for us.
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Let me bring Chuck back in.
I want to play you a clip.
This is Lara Trump on Fox last night.
The background to this is that one of the most egregious moments involving Jake Tapper during the process of everyone trying to deny what was going on with Biden was when he really chewed out Lara Trump for suggesting that it was anything other than a stammer and that clearly anything else was outrageous.
It was interesting.
He intimated that he'd apologize to her.
She said this on Fox last night.
Laura, when did that apology come?
And if you don't mind sharing with us, what did he say?
Yeah, Jake Tapper called me about two months ago, actually.
And he said, I have this book coming out.
And I know everybody's saying that I should apologize to you.
I plan, whenever the book comes out, to go on TV and I will say, you were right and I was wrong.
And I guess to Jake's credit, he did that.
Now, Laura, I think the overarching thing here, though, is that the damage is done, right?
We were so close to something so dangerous happening to this country.
I mean, look at what actually happened.
Look at the millions of illegal immigrants able to pour in.
People are questioning now, you know, who was actually in charge of this country.
I guess whoever was in charge of the auto pen.
We really have to think about what would have happened if Joe Biden would have been elected.
These people would have swept his condition under the rug even more.
And Jake Tapper saying that this is like a Watergate level type of situation.
Now that he played a role in it, it feels a little bit too late to me.
I do appreciate that he did keep his word, though, and come out and say that I was right.
What was interesting, Chuck, is I don't actually think he said sorry.
The wording of what he said to me was the nearest.
I watched it.
He hasn't actually.
I don't apologize.
No, I don't think he has.
It'd be interesting whether.
He said he didn't apologize to Laura.
He didn't apologize to the American people.
That was your question.
It was because, of course, the David Frost, I'll be watching it again recently, actually, Chuck, the David Frost, Richard Nixon interviews, of course.
Only it was after 28 hours of examining and grilling him that he finally got the apology to the people.
If I'd been Jake, I would have apologized to the American people, actually.
It would have been probably a smart thing to do because he's getting so much flack for this.
But this comes in the backdrop also, Chuck, of on page 85 of the book, A Long Time Biden aide.
He just had to win, that he could disappear for four years.
He'd only have to show proof of life every once in a while.
I found that the most shocking thing I read in the whole book.
And there were a lot of candidates.
Just the fact that a long-time Biden aide basically saying he could be a zombie that we just shook into life with an electric bolt everywhere.
This is where.
Look, Pierce, I'm going to defend some members of the press in this because, look, I was somebody that spoke out early questioning whether this was the case.
I was interviewing Dean Phillips when other people at the organization that I was at was trying to get him unbooked from shows when he was challenging basically on the entire premise, this guy's not up to the job, right?
That was the entire premise of the campaign.
But let's remember, I really think that the attempt to make this a media scandal is usually by folks who are trying to promote their own media.
This is a scandal of the Democratic Party.
And this is where I do think that any Democrat that served in the Biden administration should answer for this, should have to answer for this.
And I think it's going to have a hard time answering for this.
I mean, I think this is a moment.
And what it is, is you have a party that went three straight elections that they did not let their voters decide who the nominee was.
The voters didn't make the decision in 2016.
Barack Obama did.
The voters didn't make the decision in 2020.
Jim Clyburn did.
The voters didn't make the decision in 2024.
Essentially, Joe Biden did by giving the party Kamala Harris.
So this is a party that had leadership atrophy.
And at the same time, those that were sort of almost behaving like the old Soviet Union, which is, you know, the leader dies and everybody wants to keep their power and keep their influence.
So I do think this scandal should be more laser focused on the Democratic Party.
I think the press is, again, I always look at the criticism of the press here through the person that's making the criticism.
And I think in some ways, there's almost an eagerness to blame the press without looking at actual who should be blamed here.
And it's the leadership and frankly, the members of the Biden administration and the leadership of the Democratic Party who they're the ones that lied.
Look, at the end of the day, no journalist is as good as their sources.
The end of the day, the Democratic Party lied to the American people.
The leadership of the Democratic Party lied to the American people.
And that's where this scandal should be centered.
Yeah, I largely don't disagree with you.
I kind of think the bigger villains are the people in the White House who obviously knew for a fact what was actually going on with Biden.
I do think the media are culpable too.
And I do think if it had been Trump, there would have been an absolute frenzy to get to the bottom of any cognitive issues if he was faceplanting.
Is there a frenzy now, though, Pierce?
We've got a president.
If I told you a president doesn't sleep at night and instead tweets crazy stuff in the middle of the night, would you wonder if there was cognitive decline?
Biden Gets Carterized 00:13:47
Which is the same thing.
Well, I would say about that.
Are they correctly covering this guy's manic behavior?
Because his behavior in office is questionable.
Don't all talk at once.
I would say that I've known Trump 20 years, and he's behaved in this kind of way for the entire time I've known him.
He used to behave like that defense of Biden, Pierce.
I've known Biden 20 years.
He's always been misspeaking and stuff.
So I'm just saying.
Well, I would say I'm not going to go to the base of these guys.
Here's a difference, Chuck, I would say, is that Trump makes himself always available.
He's always doing two-hour rally speeches.
He's doing endless huddles with the press, endless interviews.
He's making himself Crazy.
Does that make it better?
I think it's a different kind of thing.
You could say that Trump's a bit crazy, but I don't think you see evidence of cognitive decline.
There's not a lot of difference between Trump now than there was first time around in 2016-17.
To me, watching him, I just think he's the same guy.
Let me bring in Jefferson.
You know, when it comes to the point that Johanna made there, I think everyone, of course, everyone in the Democrat Party would love to move on, but they should be held accountable for this.
I do think it's absolutely obscene that you have people who were close to Biden, who were aides of the president of the United States, who literally said he only had to show proof of life every once in a while just to get over the line.
I do think that's genuinely scandalous.
You know, I agree with Chuck.
This is a scandal of the Democratic Party.
And I think that, you know, this Obama-Biden cadre is now going to be purged from the leadership of the party because they are discredited by this.
It's too many people who didn't know.
As for, you know, criticism of the press, you know, when Jake Tapper says this is a bigger scandal than Watergate, I think he knows how to sell books to the conservative press and that, you know, people will eat that up.
So that's just, to me, that's more media promotion.
The corruption of the Democratic Party, though, the gerontocracy and the arrogance of power that it bred, that's the scandal.
And that's the downfall of this current leadership of the Democratic Party.
So I see the scandal more as a party scandal and it reflects very poorly on the press.
But this is not a matter of power today.
And that's very much to the point that you made.
This is a distraction if we're talking about scandals and in the dimensions of criminality, moral corruption, and financial corruption, we compare Bidengate to what's going on with the president, criminality, deportations without due process by unidentified law enforcement.
Yeah, but Jefferson, I could flip that around.
If I was playing devil's advocate to that, I'd say, well, what is worse, right?
A few people slipping through the net on the deportations when the number of illegal immigrants coming over the southern border has plummeted by 96%, or Biden allowing apparently up to 10 million people to go over that border legally in four years.
What is worse for the American people would be my response to that.
I mean, you can play these both ways, can't you?
No, I mean, the absence of due process isn't some minor detail.
That's a fundamental democracy.
And when you have a president saying that he can flout that, that is scandalous.
And so, you know, that's the criminality.
So if we're comparing scandals and then, you know, the financial corruption that's going on, Chuck's point about the, you know, this crypto scam that is being mounted by the White House, you know, who knows how it's going to end?
And maybe it won't end in disaster.
But when we see these kinds of things going on, we need to keep it.
What about, well, let me ask you about that.
Well, on financial matters, again, because Jeff, and I'll come to you in a moment, but we've talked about this being an open-ended scandal at the moment.
We've never really got to the bottom of what was going on with Hunter Biden landing a million dollar a year job at a Ukrainian energy company with zero experience when his father is vice president with specific responsibility for Ukraine.
That to me smacks of financial corruption.
So I think there's a lot of that stuff.
And we've already had, of course, we've had retrospective pardons put out by Biden to protect them from any more investigations into that that may lead to criminal charges.
That again, to me, thanks to high heaven.
So I'm not here to defend either side, particularly.
I'm just saying that you could look at it in a different way if you're on the other side.
Right.
But lots of journalists have access to Hunter Biden's laptop.
And, you know, whatever the debate about whether the propriety of that, the legitimacy of that is a political issue.
You know, what is the story that came out of that?
You know, basically, I've never heard any good reporting from reporters who have access to that laptop that suggests anything larger than the very familiar phenomenon of children of politicians getting seats on boards because they have access.
Did it lead to some larger financial corruption?
It's entirely possible, but I've never seen reporting on that.
And a lot of reporters have seen that laptop.
So Hunter was corrupt.
I just want to like, Hunter was corrupt.
All of us knew Hunter was corrupt.
We were seeing him go to a strip club.
We were seeing him father a child out of wedlock.
We were seeing him date his dead brother's spouse.
I mean, Hunter is corrupt.
The Democratic Party was held accountable, Chuck.
I just have to say we lost the presidency.
We lost the House.
We lost the Senate.
The Democratic Party has been held accountable.
Now we need to absolutely tell the truth, but also journalists have to cover the truth.
And I would say like this teeing around about was Hunter corrupt?
Hunter was corrupt the whole time.
Who else is corrupt?
Donald Trump's sons who are selling access to the president.
And we are, if we want to cover that, I would love to.
I would love to actually talk about that because that is stuff that actually does affect people.
But I also want us talking about issues that are not some made-up Jake Tapper scandal.
I mean, Chuck, we traveled around the world with Jake Tapper and you.
And I know that you guys care a lot about the story, but you also care about access.
And Jake Tapper has done this multiple times where he has done whatever he can to get access.
So now he's kissing up to the right-wing media because he wants access in the Trump White House.
Fine, sure.
But we are missing all the stories that actually affect people.
Corruption, absolutely cover it.
But also the 1,000-plus page bill that the House Republicans just passed, that will actually affect people in Galesburg, Illinois.
And that's what's going to matter this next election.
My point is, Chuck, we had an election and we lost.
Yes, it is.
Jeff, you'll be pleased to know I'm going to end with you to give an overview here about who do you think history will be kinder to?
You can respond to what you've just heard first.
But then I want to ask you just on a big picture, who do you think history will judge more harshly, Biden or Nixon?
Well, let me start with a rebuttal first, if I could.
Because I'm in agreement with you.
I think the members of Biden's immediate circle are the most culpable, but I think the press is also culpable.
They don't get a free pass on this.
I think what lots of Americans believe, if this were to happen again, same circumstances, the press would do the same thing they did.
They wouldn't look to find scandal amongst their favorites because they don't like what they see.
Now, go forward, new administration, new corduroy of AIDS.
They're going to do anything, lie, cheat, steal to protect their jobs.
The press is our only hope.
Free, vibrant press that are on these stories like a dog on a bone.
That's where it failed.
You can't fault I I, I.
I don't think it's criminal.
I don't think they can find criminality amongst his aids.
We'll see.
But uh, everybody's now saying, well look, the press apologized.
They're going to be tougher on Trump, let's move on.
We aren't going to move on, Pierce.
There's going to be a Senate select committee that's going to look into all this stuff And it's going to drag for a long time because there's so much more to come out.
Now, switch to our end.
Nixon versus Biden.
It's almost laughable.
I mean, Nixon is a, both are career politicians, but Nixon is an acknowledged expert on foreign affairs.
But for Watergate, he would have gone down as one of our greatest presidents.
The opening to China, détente with the Soviet Union, a reassertion of our interest in the Middle East, ending the Vietnam War.
Biden, I'm reminded of Robert Gates' great quote about Biden, that he has been on the wrong side of every national security or foreign affairs issue for the past four decades.
He's not very bright.
He was a compromise candidate.
And we lost, because of it, we've lost huge amounts of ground.
There's new competition for the worst modern president.
And it remains between Jimmy Carter and Joe Biden.
I mean, I don't think anybody, Chuck, Chuck, you can't deny that's what's going to happen.
Oh, I think Biden gets carterized.
I've been using that as a verb.
Where, and if you remember, you'll remember this in the 80s and in the 90s, really, Jimmy Carter was persona non-grat, right?
It really wasn't until Obama that Carter was sort of welcomed back into the club of the Democratic Party.
But there absolutely was this almost, you know, I mean, Bill Clinton did everything he could to say, I'm not Jimmy Carter.
And I could argue his entire 92 campaign was about saying, I'm not Jimmy Carter.
Don't compare me to Jimmy Carter.
Please don't compare me to Jimmy Carter.
We are not nice to outgoing presidents.
We did the same terms.
That's for sure.
And by the way, and by the way, and by the way, although we have to end this really interesting debate, by the way, thank you, everyone.
But we haven't even got into what might turn out to be one of the biggest parts of his scandal of all, which is how as somebody who until January was, well, no, yeah, he was.
He was still president of the United States until January of this year.
So literally four months ago.
How has he now got advanced aggressive stage five prostate cancer that's metastasized to his bones and only had a PSA test to test for prostate cancer in 2014 when he had four years of having the finest medical attention and doctors anyone in the world could possibly have.
I don't buy any of that as a sequence of events that they suddenly found out.
And that begs the question, when did they know?
Did they know from the moment Joe Biden inadvertently blurted out that he had cancer, which then got denied in 2022, I think, by his doctor.
So I think there's a lot of stuff here, which we just still don't really have got to the bottom of.
But now the press is on the case.
I mean, now that cancer thing is nobody's going to buy that.
But what we have to be sure is we don't all agree to hold hands and move on because it's just not going to happen.
I'm afraid.
I'm afraid that is by Johanna.
Wishful, that is one of the most glorious examples of wishful thinking I think I've ever encountered.
Here's when I started listening to doctors again diagnose President Biden on TV.
I started laughing because it's just, it's tragic, actually, that we are not talking about substantive issues and that we're trying to diagnose the president on television.
But here we are.
By the way, in fairness, in fairness, by the way, in fairness, I think a lot of reporters struggled with the health.
It is easier to see scandal that isn't about somebody's health.
And it is a very sensitive topic.
I'm not going to sit here and make that an excuse for this, but health is always a little bit tougher to dig in on because it is such a personal issue in fairness.
So I think this is where I hold Jill Biden especially responsible.
Because as the spouse, she did have the power to do something that nobody else could do.
No political family.
You know what?
I'm glad you said position.
I'm glad you said that, Jefferson.
I was about to say exactly the same thing.
I think she has, I've interviewed her once, I got on very well with her.
I like her personally very much, but I think the desperation she has shown to try and prop up Joe Biden when the kinder thing, the more humane thing to do as a spouse in that situation would have been to make him stand aside and accept it was over.
I just find that incomprehensible.
Panel, thank you.
Dubai's Wealth Sharing Model 00:15:08
It was a great...
Lady, you know what?
It's just, it just, it just doesn't sit well with anyone, does it?
Thank you all very much.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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So Tim Clark, you have been in Dubai, I think I'm right in saying, for 40 years.
You were here when it was literally pretty much glorified desert.
When you look at what's happened in those four decades, I can't think of anyone better placed, the ultimate expat.
Just explaining what's happened here, the scale of it.
Well, let me just roll it forward to where we are today.
I can still drive around Dubai and be amazed at what is going on.
Things that I haven't seen because I haven't been in that part of the city for some time or whatever, it continues to amaze me.
And when you, you're right.
Going back 40 years, when I first came here in July of 85, it was as I first saw it in 10 years before that.
And then, of course, the rest is history.
By about the early 90s, it goes through the story that we all know about Dubai.
But to use that favorite expression, this was on steroids from a very early stage.
And the city went through the growing pains of cities in the past, but at 20 times the pace.
But always under very clear guidance.
And how it developed, where it developed, why it developed, was part of a strategy that was unbeknown to me at the time when I first came here.
And we were charged the ten of us of setting up the airline.
What the ruler of Dubai today had in mind then, and this is the real story about the way Dubai has developed.
If it had not been as we have seen it to be, in other words, under control and guidance, without too many restrictions, you would have seen a sprawling metropolis going possibly nowhere.
But the way it has developed and the style that it's developed has been, it's now a global story.
And I think when I look back at those days, did I think when I came here at the age of 35 that this was going to be what it is today?
Of course I didn't.
Did anybody?
Maybe the ruler did.
But it's caught us short and it continues to catch us short with the rate and pace of development and the diversity of what is going on here.
So it's a great story.
I was here in 2008 the last time for a documentary I made for ITV in the UK.
And it was just before the financial crash.
It literally was broadcast as the crash was happening.
So I got in just before and it was stunning the transformation that was happening.
The scale of ambition and everything was extraordinary.
Then came the crash, everything around the world basically went on hold, including here.
And to see what's happened since now in 16 years after what happened post-the crash has been really breathtaking.
But I remember a story I was told.
I went up the Burj Khalifa and it hadn't been finished and I was in a rickety old cage going up the side thinking this might be the last trip I ever have.
As we got ever more into space and the sky, I was just told this story that Sheikh Mohammed had basically, before he would commit to Burj Khalifa, had said, okay, I want it to be a standout emblem for Dubai around the world.
And they kept coming back with new plans about the height, new plan.
And the height got bigger and bigger.
And he just kept saying, no, no, eventually, don't even come back to my room until you have a proper proposal.
And eventually, the final one was that it was 40% higher at the time than any other building in the world.
And he authorized it.
And at that point, I understood the scale of the ambition.
It was to just be the biggest and best in the world as fast as possible.
But not just for the sake of that.
It was part of the, in my view, it was part of the whole operating model of Dubai.
So yes, there had to be some standout, iconic things, but at the same time, it was a city that was, as I said earlier, diversifying away from fossil fuels, of course, which Dubai didn't have much of.
But the understanding that if you're going to get something to be as big and beautiful as you would want, notwithstanding the Burj Khalifa and everything else, this city has to work and reach its own critical mass without too much government intervention.
And that's where I talk about the guidance and steer that went on.
So today we have, if you look at the GDP and the broad basis of the economy in all the multiple segments, whether it be media, whether it be tech, whether it be aviation, hospitality, banking, you name it, it's all here.
That didn't exist then.
So somebody had to think that this really, if I'm going to make it work, not only must I put the place on the map geographically with some iconic things, but I've also got to make the city come into a kind of, as I said, critical mass where it's going to be developing wealth, not just for the government, et cetera, but it has to work for the citizens of the country and in particular Dubai.
Get the people on board with you and they'll work with you.
And of course, this is exactly what's happened.
And I remember how in the old days, when I first came to the Middle East, how wealth was created through fossil fuels invariably, and it was put in the hands of intermediaries all over the world, invariably.
You know, people got ripped off or whatever.
And I think what the ruler did here, he said, no, this isn't going to work.
We must put our money in this city and we must use that money to develop a city.
And that was part of the model.
So I dare say there's going to be other things coming along which are going to be as big and beautiful as the Burj Khalifa.
We don't know.
But for us as in the aviation entity, probably the major aviation entity, this was something I'd never planned or thought about when I was basic head of planning in the original ten people who were charged with setting up the airline.
And I always thought that Dubai would be a sizable city, but nothing like this today.
And that it would be such a wealth creator that people would be drawn into this.
So, filling our cabins, of course, in the premium cabins, which are very, very well populated, the very good yields, as well as the way the world developed so that we could exercise this operating model, which transformed the way airlines went about their business in the 70s and 80s.
And that was low-hanging fruit, actually.
Quite easy.
Let's talk about the geopolitical aspect too, because I've been in the last three months.
I've been to Saudi, went to Riyadh.
First time I'd been there, I went to Qatar, second time since the World Cup, which I was there for.
Now to Dubai, first time again in 16 years.
It's the scale of transformation that is so extraordinary.
But I think Donald Trump, the President of the United States, hit on this very well in that speech he made in Riad.
I thought it was quite a very important speech that didn't get enough attention, actually.
Where he basically said, the days of the kind of Western neocons thinking the way that the Middle East would develop would be you'd bomb it and then rebuild it.
They're gone.
That actually what's happening now is very organic, it's very driven from within, from people here in these countries.
And they're now reaching out to the rest of the world and showing the rest of the world how to go.
And I was watching the speech thinking, if I compare the kind of feeling of energy and dynamism and creativity and scale of ambition in the Middle East to say back home in the UK, there is no comparison.
We feel like a sleepy hollow having what's been this great empire.
I mean, do you sense that as well as the pressure?
I do.
I think the epicenter of wealth creation at the moment is in the Middle East.
There is style, there is Panache.
They've never rocked the boat.
They've never been intimidated, never been threatened.
They've just gone on with the job.
And they've realized that they have a role to play, they have an identity to create.
Their identity had to be fairly much to the fore so that it could be recognized as being an entity, whether it be the Saudis, whether it be the UAE and the other places in the Gulf.
But what you've seen, not just in the aviation sector, but the way these economies are transformed and diversified into all sorts of areas that you never thought you'd see.
You never thought you'd see fossil fuel producers leading the environmental charge to mitigate the future of the environmental effects of fossil fuels.
The level of investment, inward investment that goes on, whereas before when it went out, it now stays in.
So they're able to energize and maximize the opportunity for inward investment.
This is hugely attractive to external investors, as you rightly say.
They've got nowhere else to go.
Where would you really like to put your money in, whether it be Europe today, or you mentioned the UK or whatever?
This is the place that has everything going for it.
And when I look forward, perhaps next 10 or 15 years, if this operating model continues to energize, if you can call it that way, and increase in its size and scale, I don't really see an end to it.
I think a lot of things that you see today are going to be scaled.
There's going to be a lot of new things coming into these various economies, which are also going to be challenging to deliver, but at the same time, able to create more wealth for the but importantly here, they share the wealth.
It goes to the citizenry of these countries.
They actually participate, they create, and they are rewarded as a result.
That's fairly unique in the world today.
You talked about when President Trump launched his tariff global war about it being a big reset for every industry pretty much, but obviously certainly your industry.
You had a massive forced reset with the pandemic as well.
You were quite bullish, I remember, with the pandemic, saying, we'll get through this, people will be flying again.
And I'm assuming you feel the same way about the tariff war, but in the short term, how difficult has that been to manage a business like Emirates, a massive multi-billion dollar business, obviously, globally, when you have so much turbulence has come out of nowhere and is really being driven by one man, the President of the United States.
Yeah, these things happen, Piers.
I look back the 40 years we've been operating this airline, look at the traumas that we've been faced with over a period of time, whether it be the 1998 Asian currency meltdown, whether it be the First Gulf War, 9-11, the Second Gulf War, you name it.
COVID was probably the worst.
We have an amazing ability within our operating model to insulate ourselves against all of these kind of pressures external because of the resilience of the model.
So the reset, as I called it, uncharted territory with regard to what has happened, and let's be quite honest, President Trump was on this case two and a half years before he was even elected on what was happening.
He was actually, I first interviewed him when he mentioned tariffs back in 2008.
So he's always seen tariffs as a weapon, particularly as he saw it against the Chinese, who he felt in terms of competitiveness with the Americans were taking liberties.
He was saying that 20 years ago.
Yeah, and I think, so it was not as if we were caught unawares of this.
So everybody has had the opportunity to deal with the tariff situation.
Since he introduced it, and it has gone backwards and forwards, and we always knew that this was going to be a transactional arrangement.
You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, and I'll release all the bits and pieces.
That's what I call the reset.
Is it having a material effect on demand for air travel?
To be quite honest, for Emirates, it is not.
If you talk to American British Airways across the North Atlantic, it might be a different story.
And as Canada and the US markets are in a state of flux, but actually we tend, we've learned not to overthink.
Rely on the robustness and resiliency of your model to deliver what you've all set out for it to do.
So people coming out of Argentina traveling on us over to Shanghai or going from Cairo to, I don't know, Sydney or whatever, they still travel in large amounts.
What we did was post-COVID and with this tariff situation, double down on our product.
You talk about things like unlimited caviar.
We keep on layering more and more and we'll continue to do that at cost to the company.
But the resilience of the market and the...
I mean, I flew on Emirates here in your first class.
Fantastic.
But like I said to you before we started, I'd forgotten that you do unlimited caviar.
My question for you is, when you say unlimited, if I had literally sat there for seven hours guzzling your finest caviar, is there a point where somebody comes up and taps me on the shoulder and says, we've got a message from Sir Tim.
That's enough.
No, no, I have a friend who travels very regularly from Los Angeles to Dubai in the 380.
And he gets on because he sends me photographs from the aircraft of caviar.
Look, obviously, we have got a bottomless pit, but we load a lot more.
So if people really do want it and they enjoy it, and many people do.
But again...
You know what you also do?
Well, I think you're looking to improve yours as well, but Wi-Fi has become my big bugbear.
So I'm a very loyal British Airways customer.
I've flown Emirates quite a few times, but a very loyal British Airways guy.
I get to do the North Atlantic trips with them.
Their Wi-Fi sucks.
And it's really annoying me now.
Obviously, Elon Musk appears to be leading the way with this Starlink in terms of airlines embracing it and so on.
Is that the way Emirates make it?
I think the Musk Starlink arrangement with the 6,000 satellites is a step change in our ability in the airline world, not just Emirates, to upgrade our capability for meeting the connectivity requirements of everybody who's working or whatever in the main.
So we're working, we're fairly close to getting that sorted out now.
But to be quite honest, it's not peculiar to a particular airline, it's peculiar to the whole industry and the inability of the old Inmarsats and the whoever else, what they morphed into, to be able to deliver what we needed.
Industry-Wide Safety Failures 00:10:05
At a time, they were simply behind the curve.
Connectivity, you know, the iPhones and everything else, it became a way of life and defined a lot of what we do.
Our ability to catch up and keep going at that has been one of the things.
I don't mind getting Wi-Fi issues on the old planes.
If you get unlucky and you get an old plane, it's when you get it on one of the new ones.
How can you not have Wi-Fi that works on a new plane?
That is a...
We've got a few 350s brand new, we've had to work and getting them where they need to be.
So Starlink, but there are other companies which resemble and are doing what Starlink is doing.
So by the end of the year, it is like, I think Amazon's one of them.
There'll be three more companies that come.
So there's actually no excuse for the airline community to blame others.
Now you have the opportunity to get it sorted and get it done well.
Are you jealous that Qatar is supplying the Americans with the new plane for Air Force One?
Or are you very glad to have dodged the PR bullet that's come their way?
Look, I can't speak for Qatar.
These things have a habit of catching the eye of the world, etc., whichever way you want to go.
But it makes life interesting.
And the orders that went down when President Trump was in Gatta and the UAE and Saudi Arabia, great for business.
It doesn't worry me.
I'm quite anxious.
You're an expert in aircraft.
How difficult is it to modify a regular 747 into Air Force One, do you think?
Oh, I think you're talking a couple of billion dollars to start with.
And the work that has to go on in that particular...
Look, just roll back a little bit and look at what it takes for us to convert our 777s from the old thing to the new, because we haven't got the Boeing's coming in at the pace where we want, they're very late.
So we're having to reconfigure all of them.
That has been, well, the rest of my hair is just about gone as a result of trying to deal with the regulators, deal with all the bits and pieces gone.
So it's a Herculean task, make no mistake about it.
And whether President Trump will adapt fully this present from Gator to an Air Force One, I doubt it, but he'll certainly get a lot of it done.
He'll probably say, well, I'll look after the rest some other way.
Do you see any intrinsic problem with that deal?
A lot of people think he shouldn't be doing it.
Do you see a problem with him taking a plane from Qatar like that?
No, I'm an airline manager.
Piers, what other states do, what the President of the United States does is up to them, really.
It's just an asset that we use, not the 747400.
I'm sure it's a beautiful aeroplane inside.
No doubt Courtesy when he saw it in Miami recently.
But what he does and what they do is up to them.
Let's talk about Boeing for a moment.
Since the beginning of this year, 159 people have died in 48 US aviation incidents.
Before 2025, the most recent deadly plane crash involving a US airliner was in 2009.
A lot of people are saying aviation has a safety problem, particularly in the United States.
Does it?
And does Boeing have a problem?
Obviously, everyone's aware of the ongoing kind of crisis Boeing's been caught up in.
Are there serious concerns for public safety?
Well, there's a mixture of a few things here.
The Boeing situation is a separate one.
The safety of operation, for instance, in the United States, there have been a few call-outs, and we've seen some pretty devastating incidents there.
And I think the way this is, it isn't something that's happened overnight.
The air traffic control system has been called down on multiple occasions with regard to needed to be upgraded, deal with the complexity of the air traffic flows across the country.
And instead of the experience and the technology that you need to get something like that done as smoothly as it is, COVID didn't help.
COVID saw a lot of people depart the business and we've seen air traffic control being compromised with regard to the number of people working there.
Not that they're no good at doing their job, they're just having to do too much.
And whenever you get into that situation, there is a risk.
But is it a risk that should frighten people away from flying?
No, it isn't.
It's something that everybody is from the top of the government.
And I think one of the President Trump's first initiatives was to say we've got to sort this one out.
But so had Barack Obama.
So had Joe Biden.
So had the other presidents prior to these guys been talking about it for a long time.
It's taken these incidents to bring some focus on it.
That is paradoxically a good thing.
Because in the end, the resource, money, everything else to get it done will be done because nobody is going to like this to continue as it is.
So I'm fairly confident that eventually they will get this all sorted out.
What's the timeline?
To get this done, it's three to five years, in my view, if they start now and work earnestly at it and throw the money at it that they need.
In the meantime, they will moderate what they do.
I think Scott Kirby in United said we need to pull back on capacity.
We need to stop overloading this system.
So there is a recognition amongst the CEOs of the airlines as well as the incumbents in the regulator and the air traffic control system to get the job done.
Hopefully it'll get done.
I mean you're making it clear there are serious concerns.
I think on a scale of 10.
You know, if you have a few incidents, unfortunately coming together, if you see two aircraft clipping wings on an apron, are one thing.
But then you and that gets caught up in the Washington situation with the helicopter, et cetera.
It's all rolled into one.
It's difficult to kind of...
Once there is a media fervor on this, it's very difficult to sort it out.
But is it actually compromising safety?
If you look at the number of aircraft departures in the day in the United States, the number of people traveling, I think Delta and United carry 200 million passengers each a year.
600, 700 million for the whole lot.
There are many, many people traveling.
99%, more than 99% of the departures are risk-free and have no problem.
But once you get a few together, then the whole thing falls apart.
This is something that perhaps there should have been better dealing with a little bit as to how the media went about presenting all of that.
Because it's not a good story to do that.
There are a lot of very safe operators there.
Very concerned about the people.
You know the best way to stop the media talking about plane incidents?
Not have any.
People like to blame the media, Stim.
And I'm not blaming the media.
I'm not unsympathetic to the way it is perceived.
Because if you think that's history, but I do think when you have a series of incidents, it just does unnerve people.
The media are reflecting, I think, what the public probably think.
I've got two last Emirates questions for you specifically.
There are pockets of the internet.
I realize going on the internet too much can be corrosive to a man's mental well-being.
Aviation influencers in particular are obsessed with the Emirates cabin crew policy.
There is a theory that old and ugly men and women are banned from being employed on your aircraft.
Can you confirm or deny this theory?
You can't be old or aesthetically challenged.
No, Only the beautiful and young can serve on Emirates craft.
Let me be clear here.
We have 25,000 cabin crew and they come from all parts of the world.
And the company is hugely aspirational for a lot of these people.
We do not discriminate in any shape or form.
There are very, very few ugly people I've noticed serving on your planes.
You know, we...
Just as a random passenger.
We can select any individual from Argentina, from China, from Canada, from the United Kingdom.
And we're always trying to get the people who have all the qualities that we need to sustain our brand and advance our brand.
That is empathy, that is the ability to work with people, work under the kind of pressures, blah, If it happens, by coincidence, they happen to be good looking, well done.
But, you know, seriously, this is a...
It's not just about...
By the way, I wouldn't have a problem if that was your policy.
No, I think...
I don't particularly want to be served by ugly people.
No offense to ugly people, but I mean, why would you?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Let's be careful here, you know.
So I'm not going to really comment on that.
All I know is that we identify qualities in the people that we want to have working for us.
We are fairly selective about how we do that.
It's nothing to do with looks and everything else.
It's all about can they do the job?
Can they be trained to do the job?
Are they willing to work the hours that we ask them to do?
That's how it happens.
That, you know, is a kind of, it is a useful thing.
I don't, I know we talk about elderly people and some sort of 60, 70 year olds older than me flying on aeroplanes.
You know, in the end, it's a young man's game.
Let's be quite honest.
If you're going to be working like some of our crew do, I came out of Japan the other night at midnight.
The crew were on their feet for 11 hours and the flight was completely full.
Thank you very much.
And they had to work really hard.
So, you know, youth carries a lot of the advantages to be able to do that.
But actually, you don't want to be too young either.
I think there's a sweet spot.
Yeah, we start at 21.
Yeah, you don't want to have like teenagers coming out.
No, we start at 21.
Youth Carries Advantages 00:02:15
Most important question I've left to the end, which is, as you know, Emirates have supported Arsenal Football Club since 2006.
It's even the name of the stadium that I go to week in, week out.
Obviously, a very frustrating season for Arsenal fans.
We not only end up coming second again, third year running in the Premier League, but our North London rivals, Tottenham, who had the worst league season in their history, somehow end up with a European trophy, albeit a terrible European trophy.
We need one thing, I think, to get us to that trophy, and it's a world-class striker.
Can you, as one of the bosses of Emirates worldwide, our sponsors, assure me you are putting personal pressure on Mikel Arteta and the border Arsenal to sign a good enough striker to win us the league?
Which would make us happy as a fan, but also Emirates, you would be the sponsors of the chat.
Absolutely.
And let me just be clear about that.
We've been really, really pleased at how this has worked out.
And when you get to be second in the league, Liverpool was, what, 11 points ahead of them, et cetera, blah, blah, blah.
But as far as we're concerned, they're doing really well.
Of course we would like to win some more silver.
But as a sponsor, you kind of stay away from making demands on the board saying we want this, we want this.
I think you need to change your strategies.
I think we need a bit of heat.
We need a bit of Emirates heat.
We're yanking our sponsorship if you don't sign on strike.
If they'd been at the bottom about facing relegation, we might have been having a conversation.
If they'd been Tottenham, you would have been...
Are you actually an Arsenal fan?
No.
I'm, as I said, I follow my son, who is a West Bromwich fan, so I tend to follow them, and all his cousins in the West Midlands are tending to follow that.
Arsenal is a hugely prestigious thing for us.
But don't forget, it's along with, it used to be PSG at one point.
Yeah.
And now we have Real Madrid.
I can rat on them all off.
Benfica, H. Is there a time scale that Arteta has to win the league before you guys go elsewhere?
We're there for the long term.
To Tim, great to meet you.
Piers Morgan Uncensored 00:00:28
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