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May 29, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
57:52
20250529_i-said-too-much-oscar-pistorius-bombshell-plus-tru
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Kill The Boers Chant 00:07:41
Kill the poor!
The farmer!
This is a chant.
It's not a directive to kill.
Soviet, it clearly is a directive.
It literally says, kill the boers, kill the farmer.
There were six murders involving people who work on farms.
One of them was a white person.
There have been people who have testified under oath that they have committed farm murders and that they have been influenced by the chanting of kill the boar, kill the farmer.
Henke Pistorius is the father of convicted, now released murderer Oscar Pistorius.
Guilty of murder with the accused having had criminal intent in the form of Dallas Eventuars.
This case will stand as a very negative example of jurisdiction of justice in South Africa.
Well, I can think of some people who won't feel that way, and that's the family of Rio Verstinkam.
I'm already in trouble with Oscar as I'm sitting here because I said too much, but that is the facts.
South African President Cyril Ramaposa has sensationally told President Trump to mind his own business and defended the right of his political rivals to chant kill the boer about white farmers.
That slogan, kill the boer, kill the farmer, is a liberation chant and slogan.
And it's not meant to be a message that elicits or calls upon anyone to go and be killed.
And that is what our court decided.
So they will probably want to arrest people willy-nilly.
We follow the dictates of our constitution.
It comes after President Trump interrupted last week's meeting with Ramaposa to play a video of the opposition firebrand Julius Malema chanting Kill the Boer at stadium rallies.
And I have other friends in South Africa.
I have people that left.
One in particular that says it's you can't go there.
He said they want to take your land, they take your land and they kill you.
These are burial sites.
Each one of those white things you see is a cross.
There's approximately a thousand of them.
They're all white farmers.
These are articles over the last few days.
Death, death, death, horrible death.
Well, for that, President Trump wants Malema to be arrested, but Malema's party said yesterday that the chant will be a key part of his campaign in the next round of elections.
Trump's recent decision to grant refugee status to white South Africans and to call the murder of white farmers in the country a genocide has sparked a week of debate about what is really going on.
In a moment, I'm joined by a panel.
The first, Henke Bestorius is the father of convicted, now released murderer Oscar Bastorius and the boss of one of South Africa's oldest agricultural businesses.
He's accused the ANC government of failing to protect white people and says he's had enough.
I'm joined now by Henke Bastorius.
Mr. Pastorius, thank you for joining us, Censor.
My pleasure, thank you.
Obviously, there's a big debate raging about whether there is a white genocide being waged.
Donald Trump, the President of the United States, believes that there is.
He's been led to believe that by prominent white South Africans.
Do you believe there is a white genocide being perpetrated against particularly white farmers in South Africa?
No doubt.
No doubt about that.
And unfortunately, it is not any farmer is in a position where he can rely on the kind of protection he's supposed to be able to rely on from authorities, from police.
But what do you base the idea, the notion of a white genocide on?
Well, just have to look at the figures And compare the figures of murders among white farmers with any group internationally.
And you see for yourself where that fits in.
Well, I'm looking at the figures for last year, for example.
Well, I'm looking at the figures for last year.
26,232 murders in South Africa, according to the South African Police Service figures.
Of those, 44 were killings of people within the farming community.
And of those, only eight were actual farmers.
I mean, that doesn't sound on the face of it anything like a genocide of white farmers, does it?
Well, I don't know about the figures you have.
Well, they're the official police figures for murders in South Africa.
Well, police figures is police figures.
And they certainly do have an agenda to protect.
So I would advise you not to rely on that 100%.
Okay.
What did you think of President Ramaphosa's visit to the Oval Office, and in particular the way that Donald Trump presented suddenly out of nowhere this video evidence to him?
No one can run away from the truth.
And it was high time that I think that, and I think I know, that certain things had to be seen and had to be accepted and had to get direct answers from President Ramaposa.
And if he was not aware, as he stated he was not, then that reflects extremely badly on himself and on the ANC.
But you've had a lot of people since that Oval Office encounter queuing up to say they do not believe there is any kind of white genocide.
And the statistics, you mean, you may not accept them, but the police statistics just do not suggest that there is anything like that going on.
Where are you getting your information that there is a white genocide?
Well, if you want to get the correct figures, you should speak to organizations like Afri Forum and the people that really present the interest of white farmers, farmers in general, but white farmers in particular.
You know, I think Elon Musk, and you've spoken to Elon Musk, he has said publicly that Starlink is not available in South Africa because of his skin colour, that he was told it couldn't happen because he's a white man.
Have you spoken to him about this?
Well, I haven't spoken to Elon about it, but I have said to him, I am finding now with our Moriga strategy, which will make huge differences in sub-Saharan Africa and which could create by 2035, 36, up to a trillion dollars in carbon credits.
Now, that kind of money available to sub-Saharan Africa for rural enterprise development or for structural development is mind-blowing.
Squandered Billions For Rural Development 00:02:51
But that is the facts.
That is what can be available.
And the support one get to put these kind of projects in motion is unfortunately very, very bad.
And because of your skin, and they quickly ask you, what percentage do you have black representation?
And you look at companies, wonderful companies in South Africa, who has been brought down to their knees because of the black empowerment that they've introduced in their boardrooms.
One of them are EOH, a diversified company, one of the front runners, one of the champions of South African economy four, three, four, five years ago.
And they have suffered billions of rands.
You don't have any retention after that.
The big debate raging today, actually, has been this ongoing issue of the chant about killing the boas, killing the farmers, which Ramaposa insisted is not meant to be a message that elicits or calls upon anyone to be killed, but seems on the face of it to be exactly that.
What is your view of that chant?
Clearly, I cannot even imagine how one can start thinking that way.
It is clearly a call to total anarchy when you have uncontrolled criminality and murderous people which unfortunately should have been exposed to a wonderful education program and schooling program in the last 25 years.
Instead of that, they have squandered billions and didn't do the job.
And for anyone, and I'm not only talking about Mr. Ramapoza, the whole ANC, to even suggest that that is not something that's totally criminal.
And you can ask any responsible leader from anywhere in the world, especially in the West where personal rights has a higher value, what they think about that.
Convicted Of Murder Yet Facts Differ 00:12:36
And you'll have the same answer.
As you know, the argument against you that's come back your way and has been raging since the trial of your son Oscar is that you are racist yourself and that is why you feel these things and that your attempt to bring race into the possible reasons why Oscar was convicted is illustrative of the fact that you are a racist.
How do you respond to that?
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What my opinion is has nothing to do with racists.
It's got to do with very poor judicial representation, number one, incompetent, and number two, of dishonest behavior of state prosecutor.
And we will get to that.
Oscar is just now in a stage where he's on parole and he doesn't agree with me at all.
In fact, he wouldn't talk to me about it because he disagreed with me.
I just think that he will feel later to walk away after the parole as a person guilty of manslaughter versus a person guilty of murder is two vastly big things.
And Oscar is not guilty of murder.
If you wish, I can take a minute and give you the facts why it's totally impossible for him to be found guilty of murder.
But I mean, he was convicted of murder.
He was found guilty of murder.
Are you saying that verdict was unsafe?
Clearly, he was found guilty of manslaughter twice and the prosecutor has misled the whole court and have lied to the court.
And I will get to that.
I don't want to say too much now.
Oscar will be very cross with me because he does not agree with me.
And that is it.
But the facts say different.
I have been at a function less than a year ago, two years ago, where probably the leading judge in South Africa came to me and said to me, Henka, you wouldn't believe how much I've thought about you and your family in the last eight, nine years.
You must have gone through extreme tension and unfairness.
And I said, well, then we must speak.
And we had a discussion, I had a discussion with other judges as well.
And the fact is that, in short, if you want to move from manslaughter to murder, you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
I'll give you just one example, there's four.
Beyond reasonable doubt, that the person who's accused had the intention to kill.
Now, if the gun that was received back and it's part of the facts of court had 13 rounds left in it, and why do you use only four if your intention was to kill?
So immediately there's something that you do not know and that squash anything that's got to do with Beyond Resort.
Well, I mean, yeah, but I mean, look, hang on a second.
If you use four bullets and you kill somebody, why do you need to use any more?
Reva Stankip was killed.
Well, you clearly do not have the facts.
Only four bullets were used, but it was through a door in a grouping as big as a brick.
Now, the state want to claim, or did claim, that he wants to kill someone behind the door, somewhere behind the door.
How do you know what your bullets do when four goes through a door below one meter?
Who kills, who tries to kill when you shoot below one meter, below one meter in a grouping as big as a brick?
And do you court want to maintain you wanted to kill someone somewhere behind the door?
Hey, it's no-brainer.
So what do you think happened?
Obviously, Oscar was full of fear, and Oscar will one day tell his story.
He is at the moment, I'm sure, very sad and very sorry about what happened.
I can't speak for him.
He will speak for himself.
But what happened is not what came out of the court.
And I am one of hundreds of people that will say that this case will stand as a very negative example of jurisdiction of justice in South Africa.
I mean, I can think of some people who will not feel.
Well, I can think of some people who won't feel that way, and that's the family of Riva Steenkamp.
Yeah, I can't talk for them, and that is true.
That is true.
But I'm already in trouble with Oscar as I'm sitting here because I said too much.
But that is the facts.
The facts of the case say that there is no way that you can prove or say if you force him, and that's what happened.
He was forced to just accept that he's guilty and that he's a murderer, which is such a pathetic insult to law in South Africa.
But that is what happened.
And he's been hurt and broken.
And that's what he believes now, that he's guilty.
And it's not correct.
I will stand by it whatever happens.
And if people are cross with me, let it be.
The facts say something totally different.
And I'm prepared to I had an offer to stand, have a one-on-one debate with Harry Nell live on TV, and I would love it.
Harry Nell will probably not accept it, but that's then the reasons are quite clear why.
Do you speak to Oscar regularly?
No, we don't, because he knows how I feel.
And he to him, he's guilty of murder.
And because of the process that he's gone through, anybody that has had such a morning, I mean, here you have a guy, Oscar is just an athlete.
He wants to be an athlete, and that's what he had done for 10 years.
Here he is faced with a guy called the bulldog by the press, and he's nothing else but that.
And it is so unfair to leave him exposed to a guy like that.
I would love to have a one-on-one with Harry Nell.
The same rules as in court.
I ask the questions, you can just say yes or no.
Hey, see if you will accept that, please.
When was the last time you spoke to Oscar?
Earlier this year.
So he has come to terms with believing that he was guilty as charged with murder, but you're refusing to accept that, and it's that that's caused the rift between you.
That is what caused the rift between us.
The facts just do not support a finding of guilty of murder.
Mr. Astorius, fascinated to talk to you.
Thank you very much indeed for your time.
It's my pleasure.
Thank you.
And that invitation to Harry Nell stand.
Okay, well, we'll see if he's interested.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
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Misleading Data On Farm Murders 00:11:52
Today, I'm joined by International Editor of South African Broadcasting Corporation, Sophie Mogwina, Dr. Ernst Roots, the author of Kill the Boar, The Government Complicity in South Africa's Brutal Farm Murders.
Gareth Cliff, host of the Gareth Cliff Show and host of the Dan Corder Show, Dan Corder.
So welcome to all of you.
Sophie, let me start with you.
A lot of interest suddenly focused on South Africa, on this question of white genocide, a deliberate targeting of white farmers in South Africa.
And it all blew up in the White House in another extraordinary scene there in the world's most powerful room.
How much of what you watched was true, do you think?
Well, none of what I watched was true in terms of the president of the United States of America using those visuals in terms of the papers he had,
because the pictures that you saw of people wearing white uniform were the pictures taken by a Reuters photographer in the DRC where you have health services helping in that part of the country.
On the issue of the video, Julius Malema chanting that slogan, that liberation slogan, he does it all the time.
It's very strange that since the launch of the EFF, Malema has been doing this.
Some people in the ANC were doing this pre-1994.
Now, that is why yesterday, when I asked the former South African president, Tabum Begi, about the chant, he said this is a chant and it's not a directive to kill.
He even pointed out that during the TRC, one is Ghana.
Yeah, but hang on, hang on, Sophie.
It clearly is a directive.
It literally says, kill the Boers, kill the farmers.
I mean, what could be more direct than that?
So I don't think defending that chant from what he's obviously chanting is a particularly good way of defending all this.
I mean, I think there are perfectly legitimate arguments, which I'm sure we'll come to, about why there is not a white genocide going on.
What I'm saying is that the chanting of kill the boers, kill the farmers, that's pretty unambiguous.
Yes, give me a chance.
Give me a chance.
Give me a chance.
I'm saying Malema has been chanting, and not only Malema, many other people.
I'm not defending the song, and I'm not saying some people are not aggrieved or some people don't feel pain when it's been chanted.
I'm saying this has been happening for a long time now.
There has never been an example where this specific chant at a specific place, there's a clear indication that there was a chant and somebody was immediately killed.
But of course it's true.
We have a serious problem of crime in this country and not only directed at our fellow white compatriots.
All of us, we are affected.
We've lost families.
We, at some point in time, faced a similar situation where we were confronted with crime.
I'm just saying, if President Trump can visit South Africa or speak to many other people in South Africa, not one section, he will get a different perspective.
Because when you look, we can't in particular, you know, we Africans, we normally have funerals.
We can't.
Some of those many funerals, it's black people who have been killed.
Therefore, many people are affected by crime.
I think that's right.
I think that's the point.
Enough has not been done to address crime.
Okay, I mean look, I am a friend of Johan Rupert, who was the South African billionaire who was in the Oval Office at the time.
I play in his golf tournament every year.
And he, you know, he made that very point, I thought, very forcefully.
Let me bring in Dr. Roots.
So your position is that there's a white genocide.
So to which, I just want to start by saying there were 26,232 murders last year in South Africa, according to the South African police service figures.
Of those, 44 were killings of people within the farming community.
And of those, eight were farmers.
So my obvious question from most statistics alone is where is the evidence of a white genocide?
Well, thank you, Piers.
And I'm glad that you asked the question like that, because I have to be very clear that this has never been my position, that there is a white genocide.
Our position is, however, that we have a very serious problem in South Africa with genocidal rhetoric, with politicians chanting, encouraging a white genocide, encouraging this.
And unfortunately, I have to add, we have a very serious problem with the legal system protecting people when they chant about genocide, when they chant about exterminating minorities.
And unfortunately, I have to add, we have a very serious problem with journalists trying to defend this chant.
So it is a serious problem.
And there are other crime phenomena as well in South Africa.
But what makes the farm attacks particularly unique is a variety of factors.
One, that it's happening in disproportionate numbers because you have to consider the size of the group within context.
Secondly, the very, very unique levels, extreme levels of brutality that affect these farmers.
And then what also makes this a very unique crime phenomenon is it's the only crime phenomenon that I can think of in the South African context that is actively romanticized and encouraged by politicians and with regard to which the romanticization thereof is protected by the justice system and defended by journalists.
Okay, Dan Corder, you know, I've been doing a lot of research in the last one.
I just want to defend the journalist.
No, I want to clarify, no journalist in this country has defended or supported any crime in this country directed to any citizen in this country.
And two, the very same people today who are talking about, they have been saying the justice system in this country is very independent.
The Constitutional Court ruled that this chant is not unconstitutional.
What must we do as journalists?
Must we violate the laws of the country when the highest court in the landscape?
Why don't we start?
Sophie, sorry to jump in again, but I do want to start.
I'm saying this is a genocide.
I do want to let the other panelists have a chance to speak.
I would just say we should all be able to agree that any political leader who chants, kill the Burs, kill the farmers, whoever he says he should kill, it's disgusting, it's outrageous, it shouldn't be happening.
I've taken him on about it directly.
Julius Malema on Twitter, he didn't like it.
But you know what?
Tough.
He's actually calling for people to be killed.
And I don't care how long he's done it for, it's completely wrong.
What I would say, though, Dan Corder, it's interesting to hear Dr. Roots say that he does not support the notion of a white genocide.
I'm not really sure that there's any evidence for a white genocide.
What there's evidence of, and Johan Rupert made this point, I thought, very powerfully in the Oval Office, is that there's evidence of a massive crime problem, that there are an unbelievable number of murders in South Africa, predominantly of black people, and that that's the real crisis that needs to be dealt with.
Totally, Piers.
Thank you for having me.
So I think that there are three things that we need to just agree that all the data supports and affirms in South Africa.
And this comes from independent regulatory bodies, from independent researchers from around the world in South Africa.
The first one is that the vast majority of white South Africans live a better quality of life now than the vast majority of black South Africans currently living will ever be able to live and could dream of living.
So that's point one.
Point two, crime patterns are absolutely clear across this country.
The richer and whiter you are, and usually based on what I've just said, the whiter you are, the richer you are.
That's an undeniable correlation based on historical rigging of our economic system during and before apartheid.
The richer and whiter you are, the less likely you are to suffer crime.
And the poorer and blacker you are, the more likely you are to suffer crime.
And then thirdly, there is no evidence of targeted race-based murders in this country.
There's not been a single land seizure in this country by the government or others based on race.
And I want to speak to what Ernst Ruth said.
It's crucial to point out this, that he talks about the particular brutality allegedly of farm murders without countenancing the fact that the vast majority of murders in this country affecting all kinds of people are particularly brutal and awful and garish.
It's not unique to farm murders.
It happens all the time in all communities.
It is ghastly and awful.
It's not a specific plight of the farmer.
And Ernst claims that you need to count like the number of farm murders in line with the proportion of how many people there are.
Actually, if you look at the data, Piers, farmers, whiter farmers, suffer less crime than black farmers and farmers of color because they are better protected by their wealth, which is often a corollary with their race.
It actually turns out that when you count the beans, white farmers are absolutely not being disproportionately sufferers of crime.
What really happens, Piers, in farming communities around the country is that farming, in a farming community, there are many poor people for whom the only place that they can gain work is a farm.
And the only source of wealth in that area is the farm.
And so crime out of necessity to try and steal something to gain wealth, while very regrettable, it makes sense that it happens.
It makes sense that it targets the source of wealth, the source of income, and the source of value.
That happens all across the country.
And there were crime stats that came out.
If I can just finish, Piers, because crime stats came out three days ago that are super relevant to this.
And thank you for the crime stats that you spoke about earlier.
But crime stats came out three days ago from the first quarter of South Africa this year, 1 Jan to 31 March.
There were around 5,700 murders across the country.
There were six murders involving people who work on farms.
Five of them were people of color.
One of them was a white person.
Two farm owners died.
They're both black.
Three of the farm laborers who died were black, and the one white person was a farm dweller.
So we are not here to allow the spin of data to make it sound like it is worse to be a white farmer than any other group in this country because it is simply not true.
And SAPS, the South African police force, was questioned earlier this year because there were allegations of undercounting, undercounting farm murders.
SAPS went through all of those complaints and found that only one of the names of a person who was allegedly murdered in the last year who was involved in a farm had already been counted in the previous quarter of the statistics.
The actual group of people who are undercounted in terms of how much they suffer crime are impoverished people and black people because those are the stories that don't end up with the police and don't end up.
Trump Misreads South Africa Situation 00:14:52
So let me ask you this question, which is why has Donald Trump been lent on, do you think, by so many people, possibly we assume, including Elon Musk, who's obviously South African himself.
What do you think is going on here to make Donald Trump, President of the United States, take on the South African president in the way that he did?
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The vast majority of Donald Trump's political project is that America is under assault.
And by that, he means white America.
And he is completely anti-any immigration or any flowing in of people from other parts in the world, whether legal or otherwise, whether it be a student at a university or somebody jumping the border to try and find out.
Well, to be fair, he's not special.
Hang on, Let me finish.
He doesn't speak.
Hang on.
Hang on.
No, no.
I can't let you say something without challenging it if I think he's wrong.
When you say that he's predominantly aiming this for the white population of America, what has he said that's ever or what's he ever said that suggests that?
I've never heard him say, I want to protect the white people in America.
He says, I want to protect Americans of all kinds.
White, black.
You might think it though.
He's ever said it.
Yeah, but Piers, come on, a wink and a nudge is as good as a communication.
Let's be real.
I don't agree.
No, I think it's lazy.
I think it's lazy to do that.
No, you haven't even let me finish, though.
And this show is called.
Yeah, because you made a statement about Trump that I don't think is true.
Yeah, so I haven't even finished about why he's obsessing with this.
Let me finish my idea and then you can critique it as much as you like.
It is your show.
Okay, so Donald Trump largely goes after immigrants and he criticizes the immigrants who are of color from countries in the world that he calls asshole countries.
I don't know if we can surrender on this show, but that was a quote about most African operators.
We're uncensored.
Say we are lying.
Shithole countries.
Okay, so but that's a quote from the American president.
So what is different about the South African white farmer plight versus all the other refugee programs that he's canceled, including 10,000 applications that are live and would have reached the fruition of like Afghani people who helped the Americans in Afghanistan getting safe haven in America, is the fact that these are white refugees.
There are no white refugees being denied passage from any other country in the world.
This fits the narrative that Trump really loves, that there are white people under attack, that the identity of white America is under attack, that they're going to be washed away.
The great replacement theory.
In my opinion, Piers, and you're welcome to disagree with me.
You can see that everyone who Trump dislikes is either a person of color or a white person who disagrees with them.
Those are the only two categories.
And for him, under Elon Musk.
That is complete.
I'm sorry.
That is complete and utter nonsense.
He said Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, should be in jail.
Last time I checked, Keir Starmer's white.
It's ridiculous.
Hold on.
He attacks white people.
I said two categories.
I said white people who disagree with his politics or people of color.
Keir Starmer disagrees with his politics.
Keir Starmer's been bashed by the MAGARIT for so long, so long.
And if Keir Starmer doesn't follow Trump's ideas about Ukraine or about Starlink, then Keir Starmer is in his crosses.
It's as simple as that.
It's always been the case.
I think everyone's.
Listen, I've been in his, I have been in Trump's crosshairs after the last interview we did.
He didn't talk to me for six months.
Last time I checked, I'm white.
It's fine.
He whacks anyone.
He whacks anybody that has a go at him.
Anyway, let me bring in Gareth.
He's been waiting patiently, pulling a few faces, I might add.
So I didn't know, for example, that 7% of South Africans are white, but that they own half of the land in South Africa, which is quite an extraordinary statistic.
But I've also been reading stuff over the last couple of days since the big Oval Office bust up, that a lot of people feel that the expected retribution against the white population post-Mandela never really came in the way that people feared and that not enough acknowledgement is made about that.
What do you feel about that?
Is that true?
Is that your feeling as a South African?
We have an incredible story in this country.
And for 30 years, we've told that story internationally, and it's gained us huge credit on the international stage, which I think we deserve post-94.
What hasn't happened is that our government hasn't been treated like adults by the international community since then, because we've been coddled and the international left has used South Africa as an example for their own ends, not necessarily because it's true for us, of what a sort of open society golden utopia might be.
I think that this is the first time, and I didn't enjoy watching our president humiliated in the White House.
I don't think that that's good for any country's leaders to have to go through.
But it certainly was a recognition that South Africa is being treated as an adult country in the international community that must account for itself.
And if Trump believes that those are the things that we need accounting for, then that's his right as the leader of the United States.
Well, it's his right.
It's his right.
But is he actually right when it comes to the facts?
Many people say that this concept of a white genocide in South Africa is fiction and it's being perpetrated by people on the kind of equivalent MAGA right in South Africa who have somehow got into some of the senior Trump people, maybe Elon Musk, maybe some of the others, and they've convinced them that this is a real thing that needs to be dealt with and Trump has reacted accordingly.
And actually, it may be the catalyst for all this is based on a falsehood.
Certainly, I agree with Ernst, and it seems our panel is all in agreement about the fact that we don't regard what's happening here as a genocide.
I think that that's something that Trump has misread in terms of the situation.
What I do think is happening, there are certainly race-based laws in this country, which need some addressing.
There are certainly issues around economic equality, which are brought up all the time.
The only equality I think that you can guarantee as a government is equality in law.
And I think that that's something which requires a bit of attention.
Furthermore, I also think that we do have very genuine problems, as already indicated by the other people on this panel, with crime, with violence, with a government which has made very, very bad friends internationally.
And given the opportunity to make the right decision, they almost always do the opposite.
So I think that that's probably worthy of some inspection and some interest from the largest trading partner, or certainly among the largest trading partners that we have, and one of the most powerful countries in the world.
So if it gets us a little bit of attention and gets the government to deliver, because the vast majority of people in this country are poor and rely on the state for everything.
And the state has done an absolutely dreadful job.
And if that is a piece of information that came across to the entire world in that horrible Oval Office meeting, then I think that that's a piece of information that has some value.
I actually thought, Sophia, the president conducted himself with great poise, actually, the South African president.
He didn't react in the way that President Zelensky did.
He managed to keep his calm.
He said his peace.
It looked like he'd come prepared for something to blow up like this, which I thought was to his credit.
I mean, that's the way to handle, I think, Trump in that kind of dynamic.
But when you've listened to what the other panelists have been saying, Sophie, what's your reaction?
Well, I think we have been able to agree, all of us, particularly the fact that we come from South Africa, we are South Africans, that there is no genocide.
Thank you, Piers Morgan, because I'm sitting here, the only black person, a woman.
I'm agreeing with my fellow South Africans that there is no genocide.
Yes, there are challenges.
And therefore, I think it's up to the politicians to do the introspection in terms of why all of a sudden we are divided.
How do we address this division?
But the fact of the matter is we have all agreed that there is no genocide.
I come from Free State, a conference phrase that Ruert knows very well where is Free State.
It's a hub of farmers, white farmers, big white farmers.
My neighbors are Afrikaners.
I have no problem with them.
Therefore, we can live side by side.
There are challenges.
And therefore, the law enforcement agencies must do its work and government must also do its work.
It's a pity.
It's sad that the leader of such a powerful nation around the world became a joke.
People are talking about President Trump.
Everybody's giving Ramapasa credit for exercising restraint and calm.
And that's leadership.
That's what leadership is all about.
And it has since emerged that some of the examples were false.
Just imagine these things are all over the internet.
The president of the United States of America, the overall office, the most respected office by the Americans, became that dramatic.
And therefore, I think leaders must do introspection in terms of how they conduct themselves.
President Trump has failed the Americans by, you know, using false.
I mean, he talks about fake news all the time.
And there he is now.
This stuff is on internet.
And therefore, it's going to be there for many, many, many years.
It will be, but actually, one of the purposes of having debates like this is to hold those kind of claims to account.
And it is interesting to me that everybody on the panel has agreed there is not a white genocide going on, which I think is significant.
Let me bring you back in, Ernst Roots.
So it's estimated, I've read this a lot in the last couple of days, that there are currently 142 anti-white race laws on the books in South Africa, suggesting to some that whites are being racially persecuted.
It's been explained to me as an explanation for this that this is part of the ongoing correction post-apartheid of the reverse.
In other words, there's just a big correction going on that hasn't been completed.
Is that an accurate assessment of what is happening?
Elon Musk talked about he can't have Starlink in South Africa because of his skin color.
Is that true as far as we're aware?
Well, let me just make a quick comment firstly in defense of President Trump.
The comment that was made by Sophie that he was spreading false news, I think, is malicious.
It is true that on one of the articles, there was a picture of an incident in the Congo, but the article was about the crisis in Africa with particular references to the crisis in South Africa.
So the fact that there's also a reference to the Congo in that article doesn't mean that he was spreading false news by pretending that Congo is South Africa.
I don't think that's a fair comment.
Also, he didn't say that to President Ramapasa.
He showed people.
No, no, you showed him an article about the crisis in Africa.
This is happening in South Africa.
Yes, and exactly in that.
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That's what the article is about.
The fact that there's a picture of something that happened in the Congo on top of the article doesn't mean that he was spreading false news or fake news about South Africa.
I think what is also not...
You don't do that.
That's misleading.
That's misleading.
That's misleading because for everyone, can I tell you what's misleading?
When you see that picture, you think it's happening in South Africa.
No, it's an article about the crisis in Africa with reference to the Congo and to South Africa.
What is misleading, though, with all due respect, is earlier you mentioned that there's never been a single example of a person who has been murdered as a result of the Kill the Boer chant.
That's false.
You can look it up yourself.
There have been people who have testified under oath that they have committed farm murders and that they have been influenced by the chanting of Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer.
It's on record.
Have they been sentenced?
Which court?
Which court?
Which case?
Mr. Tuko Trini testified that when he spoke at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission after murdering a farmer called Godfrey Ewer.
Okay, but let me ask you.
Hang on, hang on.
I'm talking now.
Hang on.
Post.
No, no, you're talking never.
You said there's never been such an example.
I'm saying you want before 1994.
Would you like more examples?
You're saying that has never happened, that a farmer has been murdered by the Kill the Boer chant.
Would you like me to give you more examples?
I can give you more examples.
I'm saying you know very well that indeed farmers are being targeted, both black and white, including the farm workers.
You know very well that everyone is not hang on.
Hang on, Sophie.
Hang on, Sophie.
Hang on.
Hang on.
Sophie, you did say, Sophie, you did say, to be clear, that there was no evidence that anyone had been targeted and killed as other chanting.
Clearly, it would appear there has been.
The fact checkers can get into this afterwards.
But let me ask you again, Ernst Roots, about my question.
These anti-white race laws, is it what it seems on the tin, or is it a little bit misleading?
In other words, has part of the ongoing process of moving South Africa past apartheid been to get into reversal of a lot of laws, which were anti-black to start with?
Justifying Past Racial Laws 00:07:58
Well, these laws are always justified with reference to inequality in South Africa.
And as Dan Corda has mentioned, that white people are on average more wealthy than black people in South Africa, which is not deniable.
It is true.
And so as a result of that, these race laws are justified or people attempt to justify these laws on that basis.
In other words, they attempt to justify them based on the intention of the laws.
But what we should judge them by is the outcome of the laws, not the intention.
And the reality is that in terms of the outcome, black South Africans have not become wealthy.
So give me an example.
All right, Ernst, give me an example of one of these laws which you think is just completely unacceptable.
Well, the fact that the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act says that all spheres of society have to be racially representative.
The fact that the Employment Equity Act and the Black Economic Empowerment legislation says that a company, the BEE legislation, for example, states that a company has to comply with certain racial criteria to have certain benefits, for example, doing business with government and so forth.
This whole thing about racial representatives, when we have a completely disastrous education system.
So black South Africans in particular have received education that are worse than what the average white South African gets.
There's higher dropout rates in high school, there's higher dropout rates in university, significantly higher, and so forth.
And so when it comes to employability, we have a very serious problem in this country.
And when it comes to education, we have a very serious problem.
But these issues are not addressed.
In other words, the input side, actually enabling people to compete on an equal level is not addressed.
It's only the sort of trying to attempt to fix it at the end by fixing the statistics.
And it doesn't work.
And the fact you can see that it doesn't work by the mere fact that it hasn't helped black people.
It has rendered black people in South Africa dependent on the government through social grants.
The fact that there are now 28 million people in South Africa living off social grants, and that number is increasing.
And if you include people who work for the government, it's more than half of people in South Africa get money from the government every month.
It's completely unsustainable.
And these race laws are facilitating this process and not addressing it.
All right, Dan Corder, you're mocking what you've just been hearing.
Why?
Well, it's just fun to be in the front row in the audience for the circus, Piers, to hear this level of hilarious lying and grifting.
So he doesn't name you a single race law that genuinely has anything wrong with it.
Then he says the problem is implementation.
And then he leaps to, oh no, forget that I was talking about laws.
The education system is broken.
Doesn't show you which law that has racial redress parts of it could have caused that to happen.
Piers, let me clear up these actual laws because what they tried to do was have a deluge of hundreds of laws and hope that nobody would read them.
But I went through their list.
I actually covered 25 of the 142 laws on my TV show a few weeks ago.
Here's what the laws are actually.
They're equity and transformation laws to create meaningful fairness.
And here's what actually the vast majority of the laws say.
They say there needs to be meaningful representation in South Africa to reflect our country fairly on three things, not just one.
Race, gender, and disability.
But these grifters will say that they're race laws.
But if you want to follow their argument to its conclusion, why aren't they calling them sexist laws, Piers?
There's representation for women right next to race.
And why aren't they saying that able-bodied people are completely disadvantaged?
Disability is right next to race and sex.
This is a grift to call it a race law when actually, if they are being sincere with what they are arguing, they call them sexist laws too, that are very mean to men and ability laws to settle down, brother.
I'm actually going to talk about what these laws actually say.
Let me give you an easy example.
The Public Services Act, Piers Morgan, here's exactly what it says.
It's to address imbalances of the past to achieve a public service that broadly represents the South African people, including representation according to race, gender, and disability.
That's on their list.
That's on their list.
And when it comes to, oh, black people haven't been helped by these laws, that is frankly shambolically untrue.
We now have a black middle class in South Africa.
Sure, it hasn't helped enough black people and there's a long way to go.
But you know why we have a black middle class?
One of the main reasons why we have a black middle class is that the South African government has hired black people into public service and give them the reliable, deserved jobs that have lifted them out of poverty.
That didn't exist five years ago, 10, 15, 20, 25, or 30.
There is active transformation happening through these policies.
Ernst Rutz is going to complain about extreme examples where there are corruption and kickbacks.
And in every single system, that happens, and we should try to get rid of them.
But he's not been able to show a single sincere problem with any of these laws.
He's googled the word disadvantaged enacts and then called them race laws.
But if we're going to follow his argument, why isn't he calling them sexist or anti-government?
Okay, well, he's as corrupt as a South African country.
Okay, let me let me bring in Gareth.
Thank you.
But you've not shown any problem with the laws.
That was your job.
Your burden of proof was to show that these laws are race-based or racist, and you failed.
Thank you.
Let me bring in Gareth for the final word.
Gareth.
Well, we have a very complicated society in South Africa, and the five of us are not going to solve it here on your show, much as we'd like to.
I think we've got to address the fact that we've got a very complicated history, that there are people who find themselves at the receiving end of laws from the past that have hurt them, that have disadvantaged them.
And there are people now who are claiming that there are laws that are disadvantaging them in turn.
I don't know how we sort this out other than to treat everybody equally under the law.
I think that that's a fundamental concept in Western civilization, which has a massive application in all places where people want to live in civilized society, where they want to have sophisticated culture, where they want to have a legal system that can protect one and all.
And I think we've gone a long way to getting there in South Africa.
We may have gone past the station once or twice, and that's my concern.
But I don't think that we are a disaster, that we're a basket case, that we're a banana republic.
I just think that this government could do a whole lot better job.
And if the pressure is brought to bear by Donald Trump, or it's brought to bear by many of the civil action groups in this country, among them the one that Ernst used to work for too, AFRI Forum, and there are many others of different political bents who are all trying their best to make South Africa work and to make it a better place.
And I applaud them all.
I think the average South African is suffering immensely.
We have tremendous unemployment.
We have massive poverty.
And Ernst is right to mention the 26 to 28 million people who are on a pittance, which we call social welfare, but it's barely enough for them to scrape through a week of life.
And I think that that's all quite appalling.
And we could do quite a lot more to make this place more habitable, more friendly, and yes, fairer.
Yeah, I think that's a very nice way to wrap it up.
Thank you all very much indeed.
I appreciate you coming on.
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