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May 4, 2022 - Timcast IRL - Tim Pool

02:03:28

Timcast IRL - Biden SLAMS "Ultra Maga" As MOST Extreme Group Ever w/Jon Schweppe & Allum Bokhari

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allum bokhari

20:47

ian crossland

19:02

tim pool

01:09:36

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lydia smith

01:37

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Thanks to Joe Biden, Ultra MAGA is trending.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Joe Biden recently said that MAGA is the most extreme political organization in American history.
		Subjectively false, because like, I don't know, the weather underground existed, but sure, whatever, the Trump supporters waving little American flags, that's what I'm worried about.
		I'm sure the left will come out and be like, but the insurrection!
		Okay, dude, sure, whatever, I'm not, I'm not even bothering with that.
		No, Ultra MAGA, he calls it, the Ultra MAGA agenda.
		Well, Joe Biden, back in, I think it was 1982, you voted to not.
		I believe it was voting against Roe v. Wade.
		So I wonder what that means about you, because if anything's changed in this country, it's not really been the right, except the right's actually moved leftward.
		Conservatives are now like, okay with gay marriage to a certain degree, whereas they weren't 14 years ago.
		I mean, 10 years ago, they weren't.
		So if anything's happened in this country, everything's moved a little bit to the left.
		So Joe Biden is absolutely wrong, but we'll talk about this.
		We've got a bunch of other stuff too.
		Will Chamberlain.
		front of the show, produced a thread on who he thinks may have leaked the SCOTUS ruling from
		the Supreme Court. And Derek Swalwell, essentially is threatening, you know, oh,
		you're going to get sued or whatever. They're really getting triggered about this because I
		think Will may have actually discovered something. And well, I don't want to say too much because
		they're very litigious people. But Will makes the case that it's possible this person could be
		somebody who leaked some information. We'll read through what he said and we'll be careful about it.
		We've got a bunch of other stories.
		Elon Musk.
		We were originally going to leave with this one.
		There's 26 leftist organizations calling for an advertiser boycott of Twitter if Elon Musk wants to change things.
		So we've got this article talking about the Legion of Doom.
		Elon Musk slammed this letter saying, who is funding this people?
		Surprise, surprise.
		One of the people is George Soros.
		Joining us to talk about all this, we've got a couple different people.
		Why don't you guys introduce yourselves?
		You can start, Alan.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Hello, I'm Alan Bakari.
		I'm the Senior Tech Correspondent for Breitbart News.
		My job is to expose Silicon Valley and everything they're doing to manipulate your elections, take your speech away, and harvest your data.
unidentified		I'm John Schweppe.
		I'm the Policy Director at American Principles Project.
		We're a conservative group in D.C.
		and we also focus on big tech issues.
		So Alam and I have had a lot of fun working together over the last few years.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Ian Croson, wild freak and hippie.
		Also, I co-founded Mines, so I'm really down to get to brass tacks about the tech implications of what we're seeing here.
		Great to have you guys.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		And I know basically nothing about tech, so I'm very excited to learn about some of that tonight.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Before we get started, head over to TimCast.com.
		Become a member to help support our journalists and the work we do.
		As a member, you'll get access to exclusive segments from this show Monday through Thursday at 11 p.m.
		We'll have another one of those up tonight at 11 p.m.
		Members only.
		And you're also keeping our journalists gainfully employed as we hire more and expand our news operation.
		And you're gonna allow us to keep doing our fancy little culture jamming marketing stuff we have planned.
		A bunch of cool stuff.
		Is in the works.
		We're just trying to, you know, I don't know, rustle up some feathers and trigger some, some, uh, blue check authoritarian elitists.
		I think we're gonna do a good job of it.
		It should be really exciting.
		When I talk to people behind the scenes about what we have planned, they all just go, whoa, are you crazy?
		And I'm like, yes!
		We're gonna do some crazy stuff.
		Someone suggested that we hire like a thousand people to dress up like syringes and go dance around in DC or something.
		And I'm like, maybe!
		That's kind of the crazy kind of stuff I'm interested in doing.
		And then these blue checkies will be like, who is doing this?
		And people are running around dressed up like syringes or whatever.
		So again, go to TimCast.com, become a member, but smash that like button, subscribe to this channel, and share the show with your friends.
		It's time we discuss Ultramaga.
unidentified		Oh, cool.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Joe Biden is warning about the Ultramaga agenda.
		That really does sound like a Trump anime or manga.
		You know, the Ultramaga, and they're like fighting.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		They always end up making the right sound super cool.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		First it was Deplorables, now it's Ultramaga.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ultramaga.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does it mean?
unidentified		I don't know!
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Does it mean it's awesome?
unidentified		Ultra?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Trump.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Look, look, Joe Biden was talking about the Roe v. Wade thing.
		He is insane.
		He's an insane person.
		OK, I just have to say that.
		And you know, I always I'm always a little reluctant to say that because there's going
		to be some, you know, red pill curious left leaning person who's like, I guess I'll check
		out Tim cast IRL.
		Then they hear something like that and they get scared and they run away and they're like, no, he's far right.
		Let me just explain.
		Okay, give me a second.
		Let me try and break it down for you.
		MAGA is the most extreme political organization in American history.
		That's a quote from Joe Biden.
		The weather underground was a thing.
		They blew stuff up and killed people.
		Okay.
		Biden warned that after Roe v. Wade was struck down, conservatives might try to ban LGBTQ kids from classrooms.
		Where did that come from?
unidentified		He just made it up.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Just literally made that up.
		That's not a thing.
		That's not happening anywhere.
		But you see, this is what happened.
		Recently, Joe Biden was asked about Title 42.
		And his response was, well, you got to get the scientists, you got to review it, you know, and then we'll appeal to the courts.
		And it's like, wait, what?
		Joe, are you talking about Are you talking about COVID or something?
		We're talking about immigration.
		He confused the mask mandate repeal with immigration.
		The man is not well.
		He is not able to articulate his thoughts.
		This MAGA crowd is really the most extreme political organization that's existed in American history.
		All right, I'd just like to make one point.
		Joe Biden, in response to news that the Supreme Court voted to overturn Roe v. Wade, said that That MAGA is the most extreme political organization in American history.
		And it is based upon overturning Roe v. Wade.
unidentified		All right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Here you go, Joe.
		Biden changed position on Roe v. Wade.
		In 1982, when Biden was a senator from Delaware, he voted to end Roe v. Wade under former President Ronald Reagan.
		The administration was focused on ending abortion rights at the federal level.
		An amendment was proposed to the Senate Judiciary Committee to allow individual states to overturn Roe v. Wade.
		He said, I'm probably a victim or a product, you know, however you want to phrase it, of my background.
		Citing his Catholic upbringing.
		If anything's more extreme today, it's Joe Biden.
		Who's a hypocrite.
unidentified		No, look, the psychological thing, projection, right?
		We talk about this all the time.
		That's what's happening here.
		Obviously, you know, you mentioned this, Tim, but MAGA, you know, in a lot of ways is left of where the Republican Party is 20 years ago.
		I mean, 10 years ago.
		You know, you look at like trade and things like that.
		Those were issues where the Democrats were.
		But Joe Biden and the Democratic Party, we're talking about abortion till the moment of birth.
		We're talking about sex changes for kids.
		We're talking about censoring free speech.
		So I think when he says that Ultramaga, which is really cool, by the way, is the most dangerous political movement, I think the truth is that the Democrats are really threatening that.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		The reason Biden is able to get away with this and the reason why a substantial number of people in the country will believe him is because of the media.
		The media memory holes every single example of left-wing extremism and amplifies anything they can pin on Republicans.
		So we'll always remember the trespassers at the Capitol.
		But we won't remember the people who bombed the Capitol in the 1980s, the leftists linked to the weather on the ground, as you said, Tim.
		Actually, there might have been another different left-wing extremist group.
		Even I'm forgetting the details.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's just so many of them.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Even I'm forgetting the details because the media just doesn't talk about these things ceaselessly.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Here's the issue, you know.
		They come out and they're like, but there's so many far-right extremists!
		And I'm like, there are many far-right extremists, sure, but do they have any institutional power?
		Are the people who stormed into the Capitol on January 6th working at CNN or the New York Times, are any of those people, are they being supported and defended by CNN and the New York Times?
		Oh, well, when Black Lives Matter and Antifa Mm-hmm.
		it across this country in 2020 causing billions of dollars in damage and I think it resulted
		in between 26 and 32 dead.
		They were actively defended by the sitting vice president and president and the media
		actively defended them.
		My favorite is fiery but mostly peaceful.
		So if I take issue with that, you know, and then you're like, but what about the insurrectionists?
		And I'm like, oh, the people who are violent should go to prison.
		But those people don't have any support from the major cultural institutions.
		They don't work there.
		You actually have active Antifa people at the New York Times.
		Actively.
		Okay, you don't have that with the mock people, but they're like, but they're police officers!
		I'm like, dude, and what, like, Bumblehaven in Bufu?
		Podunk?
		Yeah, okay, I'm really worried about the podunk cop who drove a couple hundred miles and rioted.
		Arrest the guy, put him in jail, fine, I get it, but that is not an institution that is going to harm my life.
unidentified		And look at the difference here between the two parties, right?
		The Republicans do everything they can to disavow the insurrectionists, disavow the far-right, you know, the alt-right people.
		The Democrats create GoFundMes for bailout funds for the mostly peaceful protesters.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I pulled up this, the bombing you were talking about in the Capitol, 1980s, a far-left group called M19 bombed the Senate.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It was women, I think it was a group of women, but it was like a male, it wasn't all women, it was like, looks like four women and two guys, they call it like a Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard of M19 until tonight, so thanks for bringing that up.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think a lot of people haven't heard about it because whoever controls the history books, whoever controls the news, doesn't want us remembering it.
		You know, we have an alternative news media now, which is great.
		We probably need alternative history as well.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're a communist organization.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Well, and has everybody forgotten about Assata Shakur and her shootout on the Jersey Turnpike?
		That was in, I want to say, the 70s.
		I'm not sure exactly, but that's just another thing that they never, ever talk about.
		Incredibly dangerous.
		People literally died.
		It's just not a big deal.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yo, this is crazy.
		Look, I pulled up M-19.
		From 1982 to 1985, M-19's CEO committed a series of bombings, including bombings of the National War College, the Washington Navy Yard, Computing Center, the Israeli Aircraft Industries, New York City's South African Consulate, Wow.
		The Washington Navy Yard Officers Club?
		They got a whole bunch here, man.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		But there's no way those guys are the most extremist movement in American history.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		That's ultra-mega.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		Hold on.
		Let's be honest and be real.
		They didn't vote for Trump.
		Everything else, it's bad.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		It's bad, but it's not quite bad.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It becomes obvious as you learn how governments will use organizations as fall guys when it's time.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's explosive, but mostly peaceful.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		It's bad, but not ultra bad.
unidentified		We even have recent examples.
		I mean, that's from the 80s.
		But do you guys remember the Family Research Council shooting?
		That happened like six years ago, seven years ago.
		No one talks about this, but they were targeted for being an anti-gay hate group.
		And someone went in there with Chick-fil-A sandwiches, was planning to put Chick-fil-A sandwiches on the dead corpses of all the people that worked there.
		This happened.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't that like the SPLC?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
unidentified		The SPLC named them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And then the group went after them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you also had the Bernie guy who went and shot up the baseball game.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I don't think MAGA's an organization.
		It means Make America Great Again.
		It was a phrase that Donald Trump used.
		You could say that people are rallying around and attempting to create some sort of organized movement based on Donald Trump, like a campaign.
		But MAGA is just a statement that means Make America Great Again.
		So I don't understand why he's trying to create a political movement out of that statement.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is what's happening.
		And I'll say it early, just for you, John.
		Civil war.
		Okay, now hold on.
		I'll explain.
		This leak from the initial draft in Scotus never happened before that a draft was leaked like this.
		There was a meme post from some leftist guy that had like 20,000 retweets or some huge number.
		And he was saying that his law professor told him this is an egregious violation of the court and the integrity of the court.
		And he was like, I responded, taking away women's rights is a worse scandal.
		And the professor said, I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about for the courts and what they need to do.
		And then the person responded, women are losing their rights across this country and you're worried about this.
		And I'm just like, I don't look.
		If the if the people who are supposed to be coming into the courts do not care for the process of law, the process of
		justice, then you're going to have psychotic activists saying precedent law and the fabric of this nation doesn't
		matter.
		What matters is what I think is right.
		So you get those kind of people in courts.
		You're going to go into court and be like, I didn't break the law.
		The law says I'm allowed free speech.
		There's no law saying I can't say naughty words.
		And he goes, I don't care.
		Prison.
		That's what you end up getting.
		You get activist judges like who was it?
		Was it?
		Was it Sotomayor?
		No, no, no.
		Was it Kagan?
		One of the Supreme Court justices who said that, uh, I don't understand why the federal... Sotomayor?
		Yeah.
		Which is like, I don't understand why the states would have this power, not the federal government or something like that.
		What?
		And everyone was just like... Screams in 9th and 10th.
		Yeah, right?
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's like, you're a Supreme Court justice and you don't know these things.
		So I can rag, but I'll tell you what's happening to go back with why Joe Biden said MAGA is the most extreme.
		If you put out an article or a rallying cry, That says Donald Trump is racist.
		It will not work again.
		You've got to up the ante.
		So the next day, he's the worst racist.
		You can't say that again.
		You've got to up the ante.
		The next day, you say, he's almost as bad as Hitler.
		You can't say it again.
		So the next day, he is as bad.
		The next day, he's worse than.
		You have to keep escalating it because people want that fix of anger and hatred.
		And they need a reason to hate and be angry.
		So Joe Biden comes out, and he needs a way to rile people up for the midterms.
		The Roe v. Wade thing leaks, and he says, they're the most extreme organization in American history.
		And you know what he's doing?
		He's targeting 18-year-olds.
		18-year-olds who don't know about the weather underground, who don't know about M19CO, who don't know about these bombings, who don't even know about Joe Biden.
		Because we've had these leftists on the show and they're like, I don't know anything about Biden or his administration or what he did with Obama.
		And I'm like, well, he blipped kids, but they don't know that.
		He says it, they believe it.
unidentified		M19?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I don't know nothing about no M19.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		M19's CEO.
		It's the May 19th communist organization.
		So here's what's going to happen.
		Right now, I think the one thing that's preventing just balls to the wall chaos and violence, boomers.
		Boomers were 30 years old or so in the 90s, and they were the political faction that overlapped Democrat-Republican.
		To this day, it is still mostly true.
		We had a boomer on the show recently, we talked to her, and she didn't know anything about what was going on with our generation's politics.
		When the boomers age out, retiring, exiting politics, and or passing on, that tether is gone, and you're going to have millennials who are very much at odds in the culture.
		I mean, look at where we are compared to where the young Turks are, but it's all screaming at each other.
		But we do have young people, and there are some older people involved, don't get me wrong, boomers are involved, but they're overtly fighting in the streets.
		What happens when Gen Z and Gen Alpha are raised In a world dominated by millennial worldview, which is hyper-polarized, what happens when the next generation comes in, raised by millennials, millennials are going to have kids, Gen Z is going to have kids, and their kids are going to be raised in those ideologies, completely bifurcated politics in this country, that's when chaos happens.
		The one thing that I think is missing from all of the discussions about escalation of violence and hyper-polarization in this country is how demographics shape what's going to happen in this country.
		If in the 2000s, conservatives were having more kids than liberals, then by 2020, you would have a generation that was slightly more conservative.
		Surprise, surprise.
		We literally have that.
		Only slightly, though.
		The left doesn't have kids.
		They have your kids.
		So as long as they're in schools indoctrinating, now you've got millennial conservatives and, you know, zennial, I guess, necessarily Gen X, because they're a little older.
		But people in their 40s and down to millennial are fighting in these schools and complaining about it.
		You do have some boomers involved, some older generation stuff.
		They're fighting about the indoctrination.
		The indoctrination is likely going to stop because of the culture wars, or at least I believe it will.
		The left is going to react revolt.
		The one thing that may happen is if they can't indoctrinate conservative kids, then leftism just fizzles out because these people, I mean, let's be real.
		They don't have kids.
		If they get pregnant, they abort their babies.
		And they are actually moving towards sterilizing, or at least permanently damaging the reproductive organs of their children.
		Mathematically, it just stands to reason, 20 years from now, it's going to be 2 to 1 conservative in this country.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that's assuming that they don't have your kids.
		That's the thing about horizontal gene translation.
		There's vertical gene translation, which is parent to child.
		Then there's horizontal, which is your environment changes your genetics.
		And if you have enough kids getting brainwashed with TV where they're being told they're transgender, they're being told they're evil or wrong, they could very well become that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Daily Wire.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Memes versus genes.
		The entire education system is leftist.
		And then you also have culture and people on social media telling you you have to be left just to be cool or else you get cancelled.
		If you're an impressionable teenager you're going to respond to those things.
		But not if you're a French teenager apparently.
		One of the interesting things I've noticed from the recent French election was that The younger people in France tend to be more supportive of the right there, which is an interesting contrast with America.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think that tracks exactly with what we're talking about.
		In the 2000s, conservatives were having slightly more kids than liberals.
		20 years, that means someone who was born in 2000, they're 22 years old.
		They're voting.
		And they're more likely to be conservative because conservatives had more kids.
		That's it.
		It doesn't matter if you win the culture war.
		It doesn't matter if you've been effective in your persuasion.
		To start, the most influential element is the parents.
		That's why they're going for schools.
		They need to cut the parents out because they know parents are more conservative than they are.
unidentified		Right.
		And I think the white pill in all this is we do seem to see a movement pushing back against this indoctrination.
		I think that's what the Virginia governor's race last year was all about.
		And, you know, the thing here that I see is that I don't really see when we talk about civil war, which is always a fun topic.
		To me, it seems like conservatives won't ever be the instigators, but progressives, leftists, woke people will.
		And so it's really critical, I think, for us to, you know, to take back power, to be willing to use the government to shut down some of these institutions that are trying to do this indoctrination to really go after them.
		And so that's that's like one of the biggest debates on the right right now is like, are we going to continue to be this like small government party that lets schools do whatever they want to your kids?
		Or are we going to take a more active role and say, no, absolutely not.
		Parents should have some control over that.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the meme works both directions, works in multiple directions.
		You may have indoctrination towards one thing, but just this show, you listening to this right now, you are being indoctrinated.
		This is the part of the conversation.
		And if you want your kids to learn this kind of information, let them listen to this kind of conversation.
		So we can heal the earth and we can heal our minds and our children's forethought proactively by exposing kids to good ideas.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		And this is why, for me, it all comes back to internet censorship.
		I think this is the most important issue for all of these culture war topics, because if you can't control the flow of information, then you can't indoctrinate people.
		I remember being in college and hearing absolute nonsense from gender studies professors and thinking, that sounds a bit Weird.
		I'm gonna go and look things up on the internet, see what the internet has to say about this particular debate about the social construction of gender, and then I'll find threads on 4chan and Reddit that broke it all down and explain to me that, yes, I was absolutely correct.
		You are listening to nonsense right now.
		Here's the fact.
		Here's the data.
		Yeah.
		So it comes back to internet censorship.
		This is why they're so fixated on it.
		This is why they're so determined to stop Elon Musk bringing free speech back to Twitter.
		If they can't control those choke points of information, the indoctrination machine completely collapses.
unidentified		And as these left-wing institutions, you know, really beclown themselves, I think people are, the media, for example, you look, CNN's ratings, MSNBC's ratings, always going down, you know, some of these things.
		I think people realize, OK, these institutions are bad.
		But as Allam said, like, if you take away our ability to access information, take away our ability to go to the Daily Wire,
		go to some of these other institutions to kind of counter this programming,
		then people are going to say, well, I heard that Trump's a racist.
		I guess that's true, because that's the only source that they saw.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ah, they're losing.
		I hear it more and more.
		And you know, the craziest thing to me actually is having people say things like,
		you know, I started watching your videos and then I kind of realized about all the lies.
		And it's just, it's really fascinating because we have been doing this now for a little while.
		But it's not just it's about, you know, Steven Crowder.
		It's about even people like Jimmy Dore, you know, who's a leftist, but who are challenging the establishment.
		It's about breaking points with Crystal and Sager.
		These more and more people are rising up doing shows just saying no to the manipulation and the lies.
		So it'll be fascinating when these institutions lose their power.
		But let's talk about your article, Alan.
		We have this story from Reitbart.
		Legion of Doom.
		26 leftist NGOs team up to stop Elon Musk from changing Twitter.
		Alan, what's this all about?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		So the left, as you all know, have been freaking out non-stop for the past two or three weeks because of Elon Musk, who calls himself a free speech absolutist, and his plans to bring free speech absolutism back to Twitter, which is the correct way of explaining it.
		Free speech was originally an ideal of Twitter.
		They changed that.
		Elon Musk wants to take them back to their roots.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What is this?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		And they can't let that happen because... Who's this alt guy?
		I've never seen that guy before.
		Who is he?
		That's a good question.
		He looks familiar.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Jack Dorsey?
		Jack Dorsey, that's the old CEO of Twitter?
		Jack Dorsey.
		That's Trump's dad.
		That is Jorge Soros.
unidentified		Jorge Soros.
		Wait, are we allowed to say that?
		I thought that was, like, an anti-Semitic thing to even say his name out loud.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		George Soros is allowed to be said, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Remember when, um, Newt Gingrich, I think it was?
		Who was it?
		They mentioned George Soros on Fox, and Fox was like, no.
		And he was like, what?
		He said George Soros was funding DAs.
		Like, no, no, we don't talk about that.
		And he was like, but he is.
		Like, I don't understand.
		Like, it's not a secret.
		Yeah, so, so he's funding a lot of these organizations.
		Is that what's going on?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		He is.
		So are some foreign governments.
		What?
		So some foreign governments are funding these organizations.
		The government of Sweden, the government of Canada, Denmark, the Netherlands.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Foreign interference in our elections?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Heavens!
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Foreign manipulation of social media.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I can't believe this.
		There's no way the left would be that hypocritical.
		Next you're gonna tell me that the left is advocating for using horse medicine to induce abortions.
		Oh wait, they are!
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		You can't make it up.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I think people's obsession, maybe not obsession with nationalism, but like adherence to nationalism worries me because it's like, let's be realistic.
		We're on a global stage now.
		Everything is global.
		There is no more, I mean, there is still a United States Constitution, but the United States is permeable.
		Everything is here.
		We're all interacting with each other at this point.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is, this is literally what Jack Dorsey was saying on Rogan.
		He was like, well, we're making rules for, I think it was actually Vijaya, we're making rules for our global community.
		And I'm like, this is America!
		This is America.
		We got American law here.
		You don't silence someone for some other country.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		What are you talking about?
		And that's all Elon Musk has said.
		He said he wants free speech on Twitter to go as far as the law and no further.
		That's a very reasonable position.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And he said people can change the law.
		He's like, if they don't like it, they can change the law.
		You can.
unidentified		Well, you remember when there was a debate as to whether this acquisition would take place, Saudi Prince came out and said, you know, they had a huge stake in Twitter.
		And they were like, absolutely not.
		The reason is because they need to be able to censor their own citizens and their own citizens are using Twitter.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I love this.
		Take a look at this.
		The full list includes Free Press.
		Ah, yes, the Free Press.
		You may remember them from such campaigns like Stop People From Having Free Press.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is this FreePress.net?
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Classic.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is that who that is?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I think it's the same one.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because I want to give a shout out to FreePress.net because I know some of the people who used to work there.
		And I remember, you know, back during Occupy when they were very much like free press, free speech, until Donald Trump got elected.
		And then they were like, we should ban speech.
		And I remember talking to this guy and I was like, dude, how?
		I had hung out with him.
		And then a few months later, he was advocating for banning Alex Jones.
		And then I was like, I thought you were the free press.
		And he was like, but this is hate speech.
		I'm like, when did you guys start deciding that certain things weren't free press anymore?
		Like, I don't get it, dude.
		I pulled up their organization on the Wayback Machine.
		And it was like, we believe in free speech and the free press.
		And then you look at some point, all of a sudden it's like, diversity and equity are our core values.
		And I'm like, that's not free press.
		You know, they lost it.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		You go back and you look at the way the left and the liberals used to write about Twitter, used to write about social media.
		They used to praise them for free speech.
		They used to praise them for opening up communications, for democratizing the news.
		Until Trump wins.
		It's all great until Trump wins.
unidentified		And they realized how much institutional power they have, and they realized, hey, you know, we can prevent Trump from winning again.
		Let's exert it.
		And now they're just full-blown left fascists.
		I mean, that's just where they are.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		They even used to praise data mining for elections.
		There's this fantastic article.
		Maybe we can pull it up.
		You can probably Google it.
		You'll find it.
		It's called Obama, Facebook, and the Power of Friendship.
		This is the way they were writing about the way Facebook data was used in 2012.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		From The Guardian?
unidentified		Yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Obama, Facebook, and the power of friendship.
		The power of friendship.
		The 2020 data election.
		But then, Donald Trump did the same thing.
		Actually, I don't even think he did.
		I do think, because I read a lot about the Cambridge stuff.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, he did far less than this.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think it's all BS.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Facebook gave the Obama campaign their entire social graph.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Like, Cambridge Analytica was nothing compared to what Facebook did in 2012.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And I think a lot of what I think they overhype what Cambridge was actually doing.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because like, they can't, you know, whatever, let them lose.
		These are people who can't admit to themselves that they suck.
		And so it's like they're at a party.
		They've got, you know, dog crap all over their boots and no one will go near them.
		And they're like, it's because I'm too cool.
		You know, the real problem is Russia.
		Russia is telling everybody not to hang out with me.
		Dude, Russia is so lame.
		That's what they're doing.
		It's like, no, you suck.
		Hillary was terrible.
		Why would you run Hillary Clinton?
		And they did.
		And it's funny because, yo, if they picked literally anybody else, Trump would not have won.
		Like, they went with one of the least popular persons.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Bernie Sanders would have beat him for sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I definitely think Bernie Sanders would have won.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But I think they could have found, like, you could have taken any moderate Democrat.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Joe Biden probably would have beat him.
unidentified		That's true.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But I guess because of his son is why he didn't run.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They had planned for Joe Biden to run.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Hillary was just next in line.
		She was gonna get it.
		She was not gonna have it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		That's very regime-like.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Anyone who got in her way, you know, That's crazy.
		Metaphorically.
		Metaphorically, of course.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		The DNC just chooses the candidate.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Like, that's really crazy.
unidentified		Yeah, the superdelegates and all that.
unidentified		I mean, that's what they did.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Did you guys see the meme?
		The Twitter account?
		Roe v. Wade says, I have information that will lead to the arrest and prosecution of Hillary Clinton.
		The sky is not blue.
		Anything gets cancelled, shutdown ends, like a burger shop can go out of business and someone
		will make a meme about Hillary Clinton.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I think what gets me about this, and I'm trying to see that point of view, the other point
		of view here, is that Trump can go on stage and be like, the sky is not blue, the sky
		is red, I heard the sky is red, and then a bunch of people will go online and they'll
		be like, the sky actually is red.
		And people will be like, okay, there are such things as cult worshippers that believe anything, even if it's not real, when they hear it from their cultist.
		So people are afraid of that, and they want to censor it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think of it backwards.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I think he's a very powerful speaker and people believe him at his word.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Donald Trump reads a story about some potential medications that was published in TechCrunch.
		Because I know, because I read the news.
		Two days later, Donald Trump goes, did you hear the news about this thing?
		It sounds very great.
		There's a medication.
		We're very excited for this.
		And then the media all of a sudden flips and is like, no, it's all bad.
		Donald Trump is dangerous.
		And I'm like, But you reported on these studies!
		Donald Trump had a tendency of watching cable TV, putting too much stock in these institutional news outlets, because he kept giving them interviews, believing them, but then the next day they'd be like, uh, actually, that thing we said yesterday is gone.
		Here's a good example.
		Politico reported.
		that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election.
		And then when Donald Trump and Trump's supporters are complaining about it, Politico then reported
		that Ukraine did not meddle in the, I'm like, have you retracted the initial report yet?
		No. Okay. You know what, man?
unidentified		And so that's actually, you know, to your point, I think what's happening in reverse,
		we can point this out that Politico, you know, basically made something up.
		And we're able to do that in the digital public square and correct people and help them come to the truth.
		And so with your point, if this was a good faith argument that they were making.
		It's an overreaction.
		better for them to say the sky is red out in the public square because we'll be able to correct them and guide them
		to Where the truth is unfortunately what they're doing is
		there's they're suppressing it and so you're gonna have two Americas. Yeah, it's not where it's over reaction
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's just let's just Because I know there are many people who want to share this
		show and share the show with people who are not Initiated in the past several years of politics. Here is an
		article from Politico in January of 2017 from Ken Vogel and David Stern Ukrainian
		efforts to sabotage Trump backfire Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office.
		They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election.
		And they helped Clinton allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisors, a Politico investigation found.
		They never retracted this.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		This is damning evidence.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is a story that came out right after the election that is still there, that has never been retracted.
		But yes, Politico and every other outlet came out.
		My favorite moment, shout out David Pakman, when he did a segment about Meet the Press, asking Ted Cruz, do you think Ukraine meddled in the election?
		And Ted's like, it was reported by Politico and like NBC.
		And then a guy in the background starts laughing.
		So, like, it's super unprofessional.
		And Pacman is like, wow, they're laughing at him.
		And I'm like, David, did you Google the story?
		They don't do it.
		They live in crackpot fake news reality, where I can at least say this.
		Maybe Ukraine did not meddle in the election.
		Maybe!
		But Politico's report, both they did and they didn't.
		So you tell me what's true.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I bet they all did.
		At this point, it's a global game and the United States is the leader.
		So everyone involved, everyone's involved that possibly can be.
unidentified		But it's good if there's global meddling to help the Democrats.
		It's only bad if it helps the Republicans.
		I mean, that's their perspective.
		Like, honestly.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		One thing that irks me about what you just said, Tim, is that you said, did they Google it?
		And we're talking about censorship and who controls the gateway of what you can see at Google.
		So like, did you Google it?
		Does it even matter if Google can decide what's going to be on the Google search results?
		I don't like using Google as a verb.
		Think of it as a company that has a search algorithm that is very hidden from view.
		I use Brave as my search.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Well, the fact is that people don't do the barest amount of research before they talk about anything, including this.
		If someone like David Pakman can just be like, oh my gosh, you're laughing at him, that must mean it's crazy, right?
		No, it's actually not.
		And if you looked into it, you'd know it.
		It's like one of the first things you see.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		To wrap up what I was saying, Trump will say something, whether it's true or not, people and then people may or may not believe it.
		They're afraid that the cultists will believe him at face value, and that's dangerous.
		So they try and suppress it.
		But I think also that there's like, Trump wasn't part of the liberal economic order.
		He didn't want American military supremacy all over the earth and they didn't like that.
		So now they're going far beyond like, hey, this guy's dangerously corrupting people too.
		This guy's impeding our agenda.
		So let's make sure that we smash him in the press.
		That's the vibe I'm getting from it.
		And I'm tired of it.
		So we're building decentralized free software, which will be AGPL, where you can run your own network and have your own server and interact with other people using the software, try and bypass this stuff.
		I'm still concerned with Verizon having ISPs and things like that.
		We've got to figure out a way to like use decentralized tech, like Noster, N-O-S-T-E-R, stuff like that, where we don't need an internet to interact with each other.
		It's all meshed web.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Look at this.
		Look at this.
		Politico.
		Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine, when Russian disinformation met a Trump obsession, the Kremlin may have been laying the groundwork for blaming Ukraine for 2016 as early as 2015.
		What are you crazy?
		Three weeks after Election Day 2016, the Kremlin officially floated a theory that would ultimately lead to only the third presidential impeachment in US history.
		Ukraine seriously complicated the work of Trump's election by planting information,
		aimed at damaging his campaign chairman Paul Manafort, a spokesman for Russia's foreign ministry,
		told reporters on November 30th, 2016, accusing the Ukrainian government of scheming
		to help elect Hillary Clinton.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		This is the Euro, my Dan.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Just fascinating. Just so fascinating that Politico reported that Politico was Russian disinformation.
		Okay.
		Okay, so look, I'll say this.
		Maybe it is.
		Maybe Politico really is Russian disinformation.
		Good job, Politico.
		Why did you not retract the initial article then?
		If you're gonna publish a story claiming it was Russian disinformation that Ukraine meddled, retract your own story and apologize.
		You are fake news.
		Fake news.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		This is also concerning because there was the government, basically there's a revolution in the Ukraine in 2014, you know, that, uh, I don't know if the CIA was involved in it, but that's what I, I've heard that a bunch.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I can't verify.
		100% backed by Western, uh, Western intelligence.
		Like I don't think that's even in dispute anymore.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		And so if that's the government that was meddling to keep Trump out of office, it doesn't surprise me.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		My thing about the whole Ukraine war right now is the U.S.
		and the West was using soft power to win over Ukraine.
		That's what they were doing.
		It's better than kinetic warfare.
		Russia is being terrible at what they do and not understanding how to compete in 4th and 5th generational warfare, decides to just go with bombs and tanks, killing people and destroying a country.
		I don't like what the U.S.
		was doing when they do these manipulation campaigns, but I think the reality of the world is that everything is influence-peddling.
		China's going for the, you know, was it the Belt and Road Initiative or whatever?
		They're going and they're offering money.
		The U.S.
		going to Ukraine and being like, we're going to give you a billion dollars, we're going to give you all this stuff, get us what we want.
		I'm like, okay, welcome to global politics.
		Joe Biden going in and being like, fire the prosecutor or you're not getting the billion dollars, Joe Biden should be in prison for that.
		But, you know, I think Russia's wrong.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It seems like the liberal economic order is the Borg and that the Russian Federation is the Klingons.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Like they're just brute brute force.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Russian soft power like really is pitiful compared to the U.S.
		All these myths about, you know, the KGB and their, you know, insane covert abilities.
		I mean, they weren't able to stop a coup happening on a country right in their border.
		U.S.
		soft power really is unparalleled.
		Even compared to China's I would say, although China's catching up.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's tough because I don't like war. I don't like conflict and violence and bombs and nukes and all
		that stuff. But if the line is that the US goes to countries and they're like, we're going to give
		you a bunch of money to side with us, I'm like, isn't that better in terms of global interests
		to at least sort of...
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Here's the thing with Ukraine though, you're kind of asking for trouble if you do that to a country on the borders of a great power.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		They come in and they offer money and then it but if you say no, that's when the problem begins
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Cuz then they're like, okay Jackals, here's the thing with Ukraine though
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		You kind of asking for trouble if you do that to a country on the borders of a great power
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Estonia and Latvia are NATO countries on the border of Russia
		I think the issue is that Russia needs the warm water port with with Crimea
		And so that's a big issue for Russia.
		The U.S.
		is encroaching, and I think Russia is one of the next dominoes to fall.
		So Russia probably tolerated Estonia and Latvia.
		With Ukraine, they were like, Ukraine goes.
		In 20 years, we go.
		You take a look at what happened with those Instagrammers from Russia crying, no, don't ban me!
		Russia already lost the culture war.
		Or I should say they're losing it and now they're trying to reverse it.
		But man, are they late.
		Their children were being indoctrinated by Western social media.
		And so they were freaking out when Russia declared this war.
		I'm telling you, man, the difference between boomers and even millennials and down, this gap in internet usage, People like Putin and his advisors, his top military guys, they don't understand the cultural and mental worldview difference they have from their kids because their kids weren't raised by them.
		Their kids were raised by the internet and they were being raised by Facebook, Face CIA book as the activists like to call it.
		So what happens after Vladimir Putin ages out as it were?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You can't spell facial without CIA.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		This is one of the big reasons why the establishment was praising Facebook and Twitter and social media for their free speech before Trump.
		There was a chap who worked in the Trump administration, an appointee, I won't name him, who said...
		That's what I'm wondering.
		foreign policy part of the deep state very closely. He said the U.S.
		establishment, the defense establishment, liked social media because it helped
		them do regime change abroad. But then with 2016 and Brexit they realized, oh no,
		can regime change the rest?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'm wondering. It's like we're in an avalanche, this whole
		globalizing internet culture and how, what are we, we can't stop the avalanche.
		I mean, I can't fathom that.
		So we just gotta ski the avalanche.
		I mean, at this point, build technology like open source free software.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		And it's hard even for companies like Google and Twitter and Facebook to do it, because these were all started as open platforms.
		So you still can find articles and your videos debunking this Politico stuff with enough creative Google searches.
		You could find it on Twitter going viral.
		They haven't been able to censor these platforms completely because these platforms were not made to be censored.
unidentified		Which, by the way, is why the left is furious with them.
		I mean, the left wants total control here.
		That's where, you know, as much from the right, we see big tech as being censorious and terrible and all that, and they have been.
		The left wants them to double down, triple down.
		I mean, it's absolutely insane.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, my entire job is exposing big tech, but if we're talking about the regime, big tech is not entirely a reluctant partner, but they were pressured into it to a large degree by external forces, especially the media.
		And this is why we see these 26 organizations coming and saying we need an advertiser boycott of Twitter, because that's their leverage over the tech companies, ultimately.
		That's how they get them to do things.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know what?
		Elon Musk was trying to get away from ads anyway.
		He knows exactly what he's doing.
		He's thought about this.
		He wants to do a subscription membership model.
		He wants to charge for premium access, and I think it's a brilliant idea.
		And I'll be totally honest.
		Uh, I got a lot of followers on Twitter.
		If they came to me and said, we've got a premium suite, I'd be like, done.
		Show me like, show me data on, uh, there's like, there's the analytics sucks for Twitter.
		Give me like a premium analytics suite.
		I don't, I don't care about Twitter.
		Because you can't use it the way you can use, say, YouTube.
		YouTube tells me, here's how many people watched your video in the first hour.
		Here's how many people, like, how long they watched your first video.
		And I'm like, oh, okay.
		So here's what they like and here's what they don't like.
		Twitter is like, say something and cross your fingers!
		If they actually came out and said, for X amount of dollars, we'll do this for you, I think they should be verifying everybody.
		I think, you know, I guess Elon Musk said he wants, what, like, two bucks per month for Twitter Blue, and then they'll verify you, your identity and all that stuff.
		Not everyone has to be identified.
		Not everybody has to be verified.
		People will still be able to use it for free.
		And I'm like, I think he's got a good plan for this.
unidentified		And he's so smart.
		I mean, I know he made comments about this isn't about economics, which is great.
		Like, I'm glad that he's doing this for free speech, but he's too smart for that.
		Like, he knows that he paid $44 billion.
		He's got Web 3 ideas.
		He's got decentralization ideas.
		He's got all sorts of things.
		I'm sure he will turn this into a trillion dollar company.
		I would bet everything.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure he has Web 3 ideas.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		He constantly dunks on Web 3 projects, which to be fair, a lot of them are a bit bad.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Shout out to Hive and the recovery of the Steam network.
		I think Elon in this situation is a student.
		He's been the master at all his other companies because he started them.
		This one he bought.
		So he's here to learn.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		How cool would it be if after Elon buys Twitter, one day everyone wakes up and when they log in, they just see when
		they log into their account, it's just GeoCities.
		And there's like, just like the banana guy, the peanut butter jelly time, you know, GIFs and all that stuff.
		And people are like, wait, what's going on?
		And Elon's like, the Internet was better back when we just did it this way.
		So now Twitter is this.
		And it's like, just.
unidentified		You're reminding me of YTMNDs.
unidentified		Remember those?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I remember those.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Those were 4chan before 4chan.
unidentified		That was amazing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You guys ever go on Newgrounds?
unidentified		Oh yeah.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Back in the day.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's crazy.
		Newgrounds.com, for those that don't know, was YouTube before YouTube existed.
		And they missed the train.
		Big time.
		Yeah, they had Flash video.
		Because they were cartoon oriented.
		And so what happened was... I could be totally wrong about this.
		I was on Newgrounds every day looking at every new submission.
		These were people uploading cartoons.
		I used to do Flash animation stuff.
		And then I remember when YouTube came around and then all of a sudden the animators started putting their stuff on YouTube because it was just easy and fast.
		Newgrounds could have done video.
		In fact, they had some video sometimes, but I guess they thought, no, no, no, we're an animator community, so we're gonna stick to that, and then everyone migrated their animations to YouTube, and that was... And they probably thought they were so big they didn't see the threat coming.
		But the crazy thing is, they were so big, but nowhere near as big as YouTube came to be.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember the Ultimate Showdown?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I was nine, I thought that was the funniest shit ever.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Imagine if right now we were streaming, not on YouTube, but on Newgrounds.
		Because they had Flash Player, they could have done video.
		Imagine if they built out that infrastructure.
		We'd be in a very different place.
		I wonder what they would do, because a lot of the content they posted is just adult humor.
		Like, not for kids.
		Yeah, good website.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Could you comment on videos on Newgrounds?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		YouTube had those video responses, which really enlivened the community before Google bought them.
		I wonder if Google was planning on buying them before that, or if they were like, whoa, there's a community here, and we want to build communities, so we're going to buy it.
		But they bought it for a billion, and YouTube was dying, was like, they couldn't pay for their infrastructure, so they had to sell the company.
		That's what it came to.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk about what's going on with Will Chamberlain, because as we talk about our cultural decay and our institutional collapse, Will Chamberlain has tweeted out a law clerk by the name of Elizabeth Deutsch.
		He says, in his humble opinion, she's the most likely person to have leaked the draft Supreme Court opinion in Dobbs, purporting to overturn Roe v. Wade.
		He says, a disclaimer, I have no inside information.
		This thread is speculation based almost entirely on publicly available information.
		I could easily be wrong.
		Now, Apparently he's being threatened that he's gonna get sued over this, which is just laughably stupid.
		Elizabeth Deutsch is arguably not a public figure, but guess what?
		People can become public figures!
		Whoa.
		Now, Will prefaces he doesn't know for sure.
		It's a speculation, and you're allowed to speculate.
		And Will is also a lawyer, so I think he knows what he's doing.
		But I think this is a really interesting thread because of how the reaction has been.
		Let me see if I have this one from Eric Swalwell.
		Eric Swalwell, you know him, you love him, he farted on TV.
		He said, Under Supreme Court law, as a public figure, I take a lot of defamatory attacks because Barr is too high to sue.
		Ms.
		Deutch is not a public figure and would likely have a strong defamation case against Will Chamberlain.
		Republicans are bullies, but they always back down when challenged.
		Ron Coleman says, You are not scaring anyone, but you are getting some of us pretty excited.
		And then it's Elmer Fudd saying, I love civil litigation.
		Okay, okay.
		So here's the gist.
		I'll just give you the simple version.
		She is, according to this thread from Will, she's a reproductive rights activist.
		Is that how they call it?
		Her academic background isn't uncommon.
		He says things get interesting.
		Every law student has to write a note, a long legal research paper, making a novel argument about a law.
		Hers is about reproductive rights and abortion.
		She argued that Obamacare's non-discrimination provision should be interpreted to force Catholic hospitals to perform emergency abortions.
		Aggressive argument, but hey, law students are aggressive.
		He says while in law school, she wrote a New York Times op-ed about reproductive rights.
		Her career page on LinkedIn doesn't reveal that much until we dig a little further.
		Thanks to her New York Times wedding announcement, of course, we know that she clerked for Judge Nina Pillard.
		Pillard was one of the D.C.
		Circuit judges appointed by Obama and forced through by Harry Reid, blowing up the filibuster.
		She's stridently pro-choice, perhaps not shocking.
		After her clerkships, she got a Gruber Fellowship at the ACLU for a full year, working on abortion and reproductive rights.
		None of this proves anything.
		Deutsche's career seems pretty focused on abortion, but without some connection to Josh Gerstein, the journalist who received the leak, there would be no reason to suspect her.
		Let's go back to that New York Times wedding announcement.
		The bride and groom she met at Yale?
		She is a lawyer, he is a journalist.
		Isaac Arnsdorf just got hired by the Washington Post as a national political reporter.
		Of course, he's on the Trump beat.
		But where has he written in the past?
		Politico, sharing a byline with Josh Gerstein.
		So that's the connection.
		Looks like Gerstein and they are still bros, chatting on Twitter, interacting as recently as last year.
		To conclude, we have a currently sitting Supreme Court law clerk whose career has been almost solely focused on abortion.
		She wrote her law school note on abortion, she wrote op-eds about reproductive rights, spent a year working on abortion at the ACLU, clerked for a pro-choice judge, and it just so happens that her husband is a journalist sharing bylines with Josh Gerstein at Politico, and it looks like they're still friends.
		Sharing a byline means they work together.
		Like, they've shared this story that's published, so they know each other for sure.
		He says, I don't know that Elizabeth Deutch leaked the draft opinion, but I certainly think someone who has spent much of their academic and professional life fighting to expand the right to get an abortion could be desperate enough to do so.
		I think it's an interesting thread and some good journalistic work.
		He didn't publish any private details outside of, here's a person who publicly works for the court and we're looking for a leaker.
		Robbie Suave says, what is the argument that it's okay to do this, but not to reveal the name of Libs of TikTok?
		Ian Milestrong, she's not anonymous for one.
		And secondly, Will didn't publish Deutsche's home address.
		She's not anonymous.
		She's literally a law clerk.
		Someone leaked the information.
		We're going to start looking who the publicly available information on law clerks is.
	Libs of TikTok's name was not in the public.
	But my argument on that one was always, I disagree with it, but There's an argument to be made about the journalistic issue around whether or not who someone is should be public knowledge.
	Considering Libs of TikTok had 600,000 followers and was influencing politics, I think the reporting was warranted, but the name didn't serve a purpose.
	Posting the home address was crossing the line.
	As for this, this is not an anonymous person.
	This is someone who has stamped Law Clerk at the Supreme Court under their name.
	All of this is in the press.
	Libs of TikTok's information may have been public, as they argue, but it was in, like, registries.
	It was in, like, real estate licenses.
	There was nothing saying, LinkedIn.
	Person.
	Libs of TikTok.
	Like, this individual has.
	Now the threatening Nasu?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if Will is over-target on this one and he actually found who may have leaked the- Also, making popular memes on Twitter and- Well, not even making popular memes, sharing videos on Twitter.
		I'm sorry, I just don't buy that this isn't a public person.
		You know, you work for a member of Congress that's publicly known.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh yeah, posting memes is way more powerful than being a law clerk at the Supreme Court.
unidentified		I'm sorry, I just don't buy that this isn't a public person.
		You know, you work for a member of Congress that's publicly known.
		You know, if you tweet something as a member of Congress, I guarantee you the New York
		Times or whoever will go after you.
		So, you know, I think, look, Will is an incredibly smart guy.
		He's very careful.
		I imagine he went through all of these clerks and kind of did some process of elimination.
		And look, I mean, this is really interesting.
		You know, the media is not going to do anything about this, right?
		They're not going to look for the leaker.
		They're happy it happened.
		So I think it's going to have to be on people like Will and other sleuths.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		This is the media as well.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		And so that's part of how we're changing what the media is.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We're so used to being outside of the building looking in that the media usually refers to the establishment, but we're taking over.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We're taking that space.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		So the corporate press, I think, is usually— Even this is corporate press at this point.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is not corporate press.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		TimCast is a corporation.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's not what it means.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		We're usurping that title.
unidentified		The bad—I mean, the bad.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		This is why the good— You guys are the good media.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Here come the semantics that are completely immaterial to the argument.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I am the semantic master.
		You know what's been crossing my mind?
		That it's a spouse.
		Somebody talked to their spouse.
		It's so easy to go home after work and lay in bed all stressed out and just blab about what you did at the job.
		So it's very well could have been her husband.
unidentified		They still have to get it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They had the physical 98-page draft.
unidentified		And apparently that's really limited in terms of who could have it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying that this... I don't know what this is.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Tons of journalists are married to people in politics.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's gross.
		I think it's the third estate.
		was the fourth estate i think the press was supposed to be yeah yeah no the fourth estate
		and what's the third estate is that which one is it is the third estate government i
unidentified		think it's the third i don't know whatever that's whatever whichever estate is supposed
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		to be you know like the representatives has merged with journalism it's gross
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And now it's polilism.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Now it's a monopoly of states?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		A monopoly of states?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Here's another tweet.
		Mike Cernovich.
		She said, New talking point just went out.
		Doesn't matter who leaked.
		Adam Schiff says, I don't care how the draft leaked.
		That's a sideshow.
		What I care about is that a small number of conservative justices who lied about their plans to the Senate intend to deprive millions of women of reproductive care.
		Codifying Roe isn't enough.
		We must expand the court.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Oh, incredible.
		So a leak from the Supreme Court is a sideshow.
		This is an interesting precedent.
		How many more leaks from the Supreme Court are going to happen in the future now when some progressive clerk doesn't like what she sees?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm telling you, man.
		Boomers?
		Had scruples.
		I asked this question.
		Why is there?
		Why can't you bribe a cop in the United States?
		Because the cop will arrest you on the spot.
		But why can you bribe a cop in Russia?
		It's still illegal to do, but there's no scruples.
		They're not worried about repercussions.
		They're not worried about being ostracized or canceled or anything like that.
		For the older generations, they're genuinely worried that if I step out of line, people will be mad at me.
		Now, you've got these law clerks who are like, I literally don't care what anyone else thinks.
		My tribe must win.
		When you have two distinct political factions, and within those umbrellas, you have many different ideologies, like libertarian and conservative are kind of in the same space, but they really don't agree with each other, just like progressives and neolibs don't, but they're in the same space.
		What happens is, we had one United States, And a Republican would be like, I can't do that because Democrats, you know, I'm going to get all the flack from my colleagues in Congress.
		That one goes too far.
		Nowadays, it's basically come to the point where left and right says, I do not care at all what the right thinks.
		The left must get this thing.
		So the attitude now with cancel culture.
		Um, Ethan Klein.
		Really great example.
		H3H3.
		He makes an offensive statement.
		He apologizes to his fans.
		We all laugh and be like, look what you have to do.
		But to him, he's like, I don't care about what the right thinks because the right's not paying my bills.
		So I'll apologize if I have to.
		That's where we're at right now.
		There's no... Ethan can come out and accuse anyone on the right of being anything, and there's zero damage he will face.
		We had a detransitioner on the show yesterday, and I'm like, I'm sure a bunch of activists are going to come and scream in my face, but they have zero impact on my work or my show, so why should I care?
		And that means when the boomers are gone, there's going to be two distinct Political realities in this country.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You said that there's one United States.
		I see 50 United States.
		And the reason we have 50 states is because just in case a political faction attempts to seize power at the federal level, the states have total recourse to resist that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And that means civil war.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Or just means a revolution.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, because California will not tolerate a Republican revolution.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If the right goes in the federal government and takes over, California says no.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I don't think it has to be a political revolution, a technological revolution.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Dude.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		A revolution of states.
unidentified		The issue with this is, you know, Republicans, conservatives will always say federalism will solve everything, that we should push things back to the states.
		But I do think, you know, it's important to know who our enemy is here.
		And to Tim's point, I mean, these are people who think that the ends are always justified.
		And so, you know, why would California listen to, you know, some...
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I'll take a different view here.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I think the most important war is the information war, and the reason why these divides are happening is because the media has gone so far to the left that it's creating this alternative reality.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
		But well, I disagree a little bit.
		I think social media created a generation living in a broken, fractured world where there is no truth but power.
		And then they got jobs in media.
		And now the New York Times is being worn as a skin suit, as is the Washington Post.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was kids using Facebook when they were 14 and they figured out how to go viral.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Now they're at the New York Times.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Sort of.
		It was news organizations funded by venture capital who found the fastest path towards making money was rage bait.
		And so you ended up with websites like Mike.com, which initially started as Ron Paul supporting, and then went woke because they were like, this stuff works.
		You know what doesn't work for the right?
		What worked for the right was anti-SJW.
		We don't like the things they're doing, so we're gonna complain about it whenever they do it.
		What worked for the left was literally lying about anything.
		It's claiming that cops are going around hunting down black people.
		Russiagate, Covington, Jussie Smollett, Ghost of Kiev, that's a new one.
		Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Ahmaud Arbery.
		Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie.
		Kyle Rittenhouse, lie.
		They do it non-stop, all day, every day, and it works every time.
		These people live in a chaotic dimension of flame, fire, and destruction, and they don't care they've been wrong about almost every major cultural story of the past decade.
		They don't care.
		You will not change their minds.
		So when I pull up Politico, quite literally having two articles, one saying Ukraine did meddle, and one saying, actually, that was Russian disinformation, but they never retracted the other one, how can these people exist?
		How can their brains function with such cognitive dissonance?
		That is the problem.
		The information war, yes.
		But if these people are in a cult and you can't reach them, then there's going to be fighting.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You can, but you've got to figure out how.
		Everyone can be reached.
		Every cult member can be reached.
		There's a way.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's true, it's true.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		The way to do it is to show them they're not as popular as they think.
		And what's insulating them from that is social media censorship.
		What I want to know is why are Republicans so keen on bailing this industry out, bailing the news media out, the same industry that is publishing these Politico articles, the same industry.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Who's trying to bail them out?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		A bunch of Republican senators.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Apparently they've jumped onto this Amy Klobuchar build called the Journalism Competition and Preservation.
unidentified		I disagree on this, by the way.
unidentified		This is going to be fun.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		The Journalism, Competition and Preservation Act.
		I think I've discussed it on the show before.
		So you've probably seen all these bills in Australia and Canada that force tech companies to pay news outlets for content.
		This is the American version of that.
		It would allow media companies to get together in a cartel to collectively negotiate with the tech companies on things like... Ads.
		Things like ads and things like paying them for content.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So which Republicans are on it?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Rand Paul?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Rand Paul.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Rand Paul's on this?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Lindsey Graham, Cynthia Lummis.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Cynthia Lummis has also signed on to another really terrible bill.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Rand Paul, you come on this show and explain your position on this, because I trust, I like Rand Paul.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		So I want to hear why he's... I have the answer to why so many Republicans are on this.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		It's because News Corp is one of the biggest pushers of this, and Republicans like News Corp.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		They just blindly trust it or something?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Rupert Murdoch and his media companies have them on Fox News.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		They lean conservative.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Give us the elevator pitch of what the bill does.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It says, to provide a safe harbor for publishers of online content to collectively negotiate with dominant online platforms regarding the terms on which content may be distributed.
unidentified		It's a temporary waiver on antitrust to basically allow these small publishers to collectively bargain against Facebook and Google.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Small publishers?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Where in the bill does it say small publishers?
unidentified		There's a non-discrimination provision.
		I like the bill.
		I think it's a good bill.
		To me, my thing is Facebook and Google are the bigger enemy here, and they have absolutely destroyed local news.
		I want decentralization of news.
		I want local newspapers to be able to report on stuff, and I think the way the model is currently, it benefits Facebook and Google.
		It's absolutely put media out of business.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But the issue is local news has been destroyed, but it's because people want national stories.
		So, it used to be that to get your news, you'd turn on, you know, Channel 5 for the 5 o'clock news.
		I remember we had Fox 32 in Chicago.
		Simpsons were at like 5.30 or something, and then... Central Time.
		Yeah, Central Time, and then at 6 p.m.
		was the news, and I'd go, ugh.
		And then afterwards, it was Seinfeld, and I was like, meh.
		I liked The Simpsons when I was a kid.
		And, uh, you'd watch your news, but your news would be like... Who's that guy in WGN?
		Is that Larry Potash?
		I don't remember.
		He's still there, I think.
		Uh, it was local stories.
		You'd get some national stuff, but they'd also be like, a fire hydrant burst over on the corner of 63rd and, you know, California, and now there's water everywhere, the road has been blocked off, and you're like, oh.
		Now, you turn on the news, and it's CNN, and they're like, Trump is a Nazi.
		And you're like, okay, that's not anything relevant to me.
		Then you go on Google.
		You type in news, you get CNN.
		CNN's gonna give you all national stories.
		CBS, all national stories.
		So you have to actively choose, as someone in an area, to find your local news, but I think most people don't do that.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		The other thing is, you know, local news is how this is being pitched to congressmen.
		I mean, anyone who's been in politics for a long time knows that the great soundbite is, we're on the side of the little guys against the big guys.
		That's how politicians have been selling almost anything for a very, very long time.
		There's nothing in the bill that limits this to local news, but there is a big part of the bill that allows any cartel that forms to exclude whoever they want, as long as they're not similarly situated to them.
unidentified		I don't think that's true.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, bro.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You gotta have a billion viewers.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The bill says you can't have fewer than one billion monthly active users in aggregate.
unidentified		We'd have to look at the language.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think it's talking about social media.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's gotta be.
unidentified		Also, I'm pretty sure that draft of the JCPA is not the most accurate, the most recent one, because there's been a lot of work.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I've actually seen an unreleased draft of some amendments, and it's even worse.
		They're going to extend it by ten years instead of the original four.
		That's how long it'll apply for.
		Plus, they're going to separate into categories.
		One for broadcasters, which they define as stations.
		They don't define it as YouTubers.
		You're not going to get a handout because of this bill, Tim.
		No YouTuber is going to get a handout, no podcaster, no Substack author is going to get a handout.
		It's all for the legacy media.
		It's all for paper newspapers.
		It's all for traditional broadcasters.
		They're trying to rescue them from the internet.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They should not be doing that.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		No, it's a bill.
		It's the same thing they're doing in Canada.
		It's the same thing they're doing in Australia.
		And, you know, the way this works in D.C.
		is that the News Media Alliance, which is the big umbrella lobbying group for all the big media companies, you should check out their website.
		Go to NewsMediaAlliance.org, Board of Directors, and look at some of the people who are part of this organization that basically wrote this bill.
		And you're not going to see a lot of local news in there.
unidentified		We need term limits, man.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The Board of Directors!
		We've got Antoinette Bush, Maribel Wadsworth, Pamela Browning.
		Who are these people?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Look at their titles.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Executive Vice President, Global Head of Government Affairs and News Corp, President of Publisher USA Today.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'll make this courier.
unidentified		This is very strange because, like, I just don't... So what would you suggest?
unidentified		What would you suggest is a better play to prevent Facebook and Google from getting all this ad revenue, from basically incentivizing the nationalization of everything?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		No, it goes back to what we were saying when we were talking about how evil is big tech.
		Big tech was pressured into censoring by advertiser boycotts driven by the media.
		So big tech is bad but they're bad because they are favoring the media and this is a bill that would force them to favor the media even more than they are currently doing.
		What we want is for them to allow everyone to compete on an equal We're doing alright.
		We don't need a handout, and I don't want my competition to get free money from the government or for protections.
		even local newspapers which are just as left wing and biased as the national newspapers.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We don't need a handout and I don't want my competition to get free money from the government
		or for protections.
		If these news organizations can't figure out how to run their business for the modern era,
		they shouldn't exist.
unidentified		Look, I think it's a complicated bill.
		I think there's a lot of arguments on both sides on it.
		But I will say this, which is if you're going to take on big tech, the biggest problem conservatives have is that these companies don't respect Republicans.
		They don't respect them as having posing any sort of threat whatsoever to them.
		And so if you're not going to embrace, which all of them I know we disagree on antitrust too, but if you're not going to embrace any sort of actual solution that'll do something to these companies, they're not going to change their, you know, they're going to continue to censor.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I got your solution.
		Free their software code.
		You can't break the company apart enough times.
		You've got to make sure that the code is available.
		If you want democratization of the network, then everyone's got to have access to their own version of the network.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Are we saying we have to sign on to every tech regulation the Democrats want?
unidentified		for an idea we have all these republican members, establishment members who have...
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I'm not objecting to all of the bills, John. I'm objecting to this particular bill.
		I'm a huge supporter of Bill Hagerty's proposed tech regulation.
		I'm a huge supporter of Texas's proposed tech regulation. I like some of the antitrust.
		We agree on section 2. I like the jurisdiction bill.
		There are lots of bills I don't like.
		This one is a bailout.
		It's the worst bill of this congress.
		Bailing out the media.
		The reason we have parents Who think it's a good idea to chemically castrate their own children is because the media made that idea cool.
		The reason why we have people supporting defunding the police is because the media made that into an issue.
		The reason why we have libs of TikTok being doxxed is because of the media.
		The reason the entire country believed Russia was in control of their government for a full two years is because of the media.
		The reason why...
		And for Republicans to support a bill that bails out the media, that's an obscene betrayal of their voters.
unidentified		I think that's a really good talking point, but I don't think if you had talked to Rand Paul, if you had talked to these guys, I don't think that that's an accurate explanation.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I know exactly what happened.
		The News Corp lobbyists in the News Media Alliance went and spoke to them.
		It says digital news organization.
		What's that?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It says any print broadcast or digital news organization.
		that has a dedicated professional editorial staff that creates and distributes original
		news and related content concerning local, national, or international matters of public
		interest on at least a weekly basis, and is marketed through subscriptions, advertising,
		or sponsorship, provides original news and related content with the editorial content
		consisting of not less than 25% current news and related content, blah, blah, blah, blah,
unidentified		blah.
		And to my knowledge, there's a more recent draft that actually even excludes some of
		the larger.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		And there's, well, the new one says 1,500 employees, but that's a trick because you
		can always corporate restructure your organization to make it into lots of little small 1,500
		employee chunks.
		The thing you read out there, Tim, dedicated professional editorial stuff, that leaves out every one-man independent journalist, every one-man operation.
		Leave that Glenn Greenwald.
		Glenn Greenwald will not be covered by that.
		Luke Rutkowski?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		We are change?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Leave that Luke Rutkowski.
		Glenn Greenwald went before Congress and opposed this bill.
		You should actually watch his testimony before the House Committee.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It says the bill creates a four-year safe harbor from antitrust laws for print, broadcast, or digital news companies to collectively negotiate with online content distributors.
		requiring the terms on which the news company's content may be distributed by online content distributors.
		I completely oppose that in every way.
		You're telling me that you think the New York Times, the Washington Post, CBS, ABC, NBC should be able to come
		together violating antitrust provisions to negotiate collectively
		amongst all of the biggest and most powerful media in the world.
unidentified		I don't think that's what it does.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's literally what I just read.
unidentified		Well, so as I said, that's an older text.
		I know that they've excluded some of the larger ones.
		My concern is local news.
		I want to make sure that we're not having everything nationalized.
		Same thing that you just mentioned.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it says 117th Congress 2022.
		No, I know.
		No, I know.
unidentified		It hasn't been marked up.
unidentified		There's a markup coming.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		The local news talking point is pure marketing.
		They know everyone dislikes the big national media corporations.
		That's why they're talking about local news.
		They were marketing this draft as for local news as well.
unidentified		Who's going to be able to deal with Google and Facebook screwing them over more?
unidentified		Local news or the big guys?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I would rather, I would rather Google and Facebook destroy the media machine through technological advancement and then people like us figure out how to pick up the pieces and build outside of that ecosystem and create something new through merit.
		So one of the things we did was over a year ago we launched TimCast.com.
		We are funded primarily now through memberships.
		We are removing our reliance on big tech platforms, and we have been reducing our reliance on big tech platforms.
		The next thing we're going to be doing is doing mobile apps and smart TV apps.
		We are finding a way to navigate this.
		We've got infrastructure being built right now to make us more sensor resilient, and I do not want to see CNN team up with the Washington Post and the New York Times to give themselves more power by leveraging the weight of their massive conglomeration And you know, I was covering this from the beginning, this favoring of the media.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		It's the culmination of that trend.
		So Facebook already pays billions to news companies in licensing.
		Google has poured hundreds of millions, if not billions, into propping up the media already.
		And they're doing that because they've been told for five years by the media If you don't favor us, we're going to whip up advertiser boycotts.
		And this is a part of that.
		It's trying to enshrine that same trend in law.
		The worst trend of Silicon Valley.
		Promoting the media and making what was previously an even playing field, uneven.
		By the way, I also want to bring up one tremendous little statistic I found recently.
		According to Gallup, as of 2021, 11% of Republicans have a great deal or a fair amount of trust in the media.
unidentified		11%.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		And according to Pew, the number of Republicans who think abortion should be legal in all or most cases is 35%.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		So the media are less popular with Republicans than abortion.
unidentified		Wow.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I feel like I'm maybe not being sensational enough when I say we need to free their software code.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I want to hear what you guys think about this too.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		What these Republican senators have done is the equivalent of taking money from Planned Parenthood.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The free the software code, Ian, you've never articulated what that would do besides just making people know what their code is.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It would give you the opportunity to make your own network with that code.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You can do that right now.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		No, you don't have access to their code.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What code are we talking about?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Like Google Analytics, you brought up earlier.
		Twitter doesn't have a good analytics platform because Google has a proprietary analytics platform.
		They become the commons, so we need to treat it like the commons and liberate the software.
		That's my argument.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But that's, I mean, I suppose my issue with that, and what most people would probably argue is, you're just talking about seizing the means of production.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		No.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Quite literally.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		I mean, it's like there's tolls on every road that are owned by Alphabet right now.
		We need to get rid of those tolls.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Bro, you can build your own analytics software.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it takes a long... How many of you... Welcome to the world!
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I shouldn't have to build my house!
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You could start your own army now!
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Stay in your cage!
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I think what we want is very simple.
		If you look at what was happening in 2016, the independent media was eclipsing the mainstream media because at that point Google and Facebook and Twitter were not favoring the mainstream media.
		It was a relatively even playing field.
		That's what we want.
		We don't want the news media to be protected in any way, which is in the literal title of this bill, Journalism Competition and Protection Act.
unidentified		And no, I'm not seizing the means of production.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm liberating the means of production.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's exactly what communists say.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		No, they would take it from the state.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't want the state.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm not giving this stuff to the state.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm giving it to humanity.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What do you... Bro, you need to read some communist literature.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It's not property of anything.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Guys, is what he's saying communist?
unidentified		It just, it depends on what you're saying exactly.
		So like, if you're talking about, like, data, I think it's really interesting.
		Like, if I provide my data to Facebook... He's saying code.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The literal infrastructure.
unidentified		Yeah, like, code's a little tougher because, you know, there are property rights to consider there.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I haven't seen it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I don't want Google's factory.
		I'm not seizing their headquarters.
		It's not 20th century time anymore.
		It's 21st century where digital property is a real thing now.
		We have to treat it like such.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They built a machine that took millions of dollars and years and you are saying well, no one else can do that
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It would take too long So we should be able to have the machine they built is
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		server space and they can keep their servers I'm not talking about seizing their stuff.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking about giving people access to the information.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We've had this discussion before that you don't believe in intellectual property rights.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, yeah, for sure there's intellectual property rights, but when something functions in the commons, then you've got to start questioning if they still have the right to own it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, I guess the fundamental difference is I believe in private property rights and you don't.
unidentified		Yeah, me too.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		But up to a certain amount of daily active users.
		A billion daily active users and you own the thing that is controlling the billion active users?
		Like, is that righteous for one human anymore?
		I don't think so.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The website would just be like, okay, we're locked at 999 million users.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		$900,000, $900,000, $900,000, $900,000, $900,000, $900,000.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		They might destroy their business model just to stay out of it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're going to say, if we get one more user, we lose our property rights.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Don't do it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Because then if 100 million other people spin up versions of YouTube and they all interoperate, the original YouTube benefits.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It has more activity on the network.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You're not making sense.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm making perfect sense, but I understand you don't understand.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, Ian.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You're saying that if a platform reaches a billion users, its code has to be released to the public.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's an arbitrary number.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But the company would then choose to restrict their platform to not exceed that, otherwise
		they would lose their IP, which means they would not give out their code and no one would
		spin up their own versions because the code's never released.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you could pick a number that's well under their daily active users.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And then they would say, start a new company and we'll own all five versions of it and
		we'll have them as separate corporations.
		See I think the issue that we often see with the leftist arguments is they don't know how
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		business or IP works.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		So Google, you're saying, will split up YouTube into five companies that each have a fifth of the daily active users?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		You think that people aren't going to see that and see that they're committing some sort of... Well, in fact, they did sort of already do that with Alphabet.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		That's what they were trying to do, corporate restructuring.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ian, I think the issue is your ideas are not formulated based on an understanding of how businesses work in this country.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It's still just an idea, yeah.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm not a lawyer.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I'll give you an example.
		Taxes.
		The left says, like, we should tax the rich.
		Okay, well, we have taxes on the rich.
		They do pay a large amount of taxes.
		Well, then why didn't Elon Musk pay any taxes?
		Well, Elon Musk, this year, he did pay a lot of taxes.
		Why didn't he pay taxes in 2018?
		Well, probably because he didn't take any money, because he didn't need to.
		He did not need to pay himself.
		He eats food at the office, his business pays for things, so he takes no personal income, because the business pays taxes.
		They say, Amazon didn't pay any taxes.
		Actually, Amazon paid an insane amount of taxes, because they're not just paying corporate income tax, they're paying employment taxes, property taxes, healthcare, all of this stuff, they're taxed very, very heavily.
		When it comes to the arguments about how do we then make the rich pay their fair share, it's like you've not defined what fair share is.
		Okay, well, what if what if we said they have to pay 20%?
		It's like the rich already have a higher tax bracket than that.
		Well, then why aren't we getting their money?
		There are laws in place that make sense.
		Once you get to a certain amount of power, those laws don't mean anything anymore.
		And I'll put it simply.
		Elon Musk has no reason to pay himself any money if his business is always stocked with food, he walks in and there's a luncheon for all the employees and he can just eat what's there.
		He doesn't need to buy himself a car if the business has a car that he drives for business reasons.
		So they're saying, why isn't he paying taxes?
		Because of the existing structure, which makes sense, that he is using, but the taxes are happening somewhere.
		What you're saying, and arguing about the Free the Code all the time, fundamentally misunderstands how businesses work.
		You know what they would do?
		They would put their headquarters in Dublin, and then it would negate anything you proposed.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if they want to operate in the States, they've got to follow United States law.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, they don't!
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They do not.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		They also don't have to follow the First Amendment in your strange Dangerous reality that you're talking about.
		Okay, you give me your idea then.
		Oh, but I'm the one that wants to seize the means.
		You're the one that wants to nationalize the thing.
		Okay, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, right, right, right.
		See, the issue is, I'm going to come out and say that when Twitter takes control of the public space in terms of communications, we could do a hybridization of a privately owned public space.
		Which means the public has a right to it, but it's owned privately and they can dictate how they run the business to make money.
		That's how Zuccotti Parked worked in New York.
		What you're saying is you would take their ownership of the code itself and give it to everyone else, which I don't think would do anything at all, to be completely honest.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I'm interested in the idea, because what's the incentive for a corporation to do this?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		You said a bigger network?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It's like breaking up a monopoly.
		I don't think they would want it.
		It wouldn't destroy the company.
		That's the point.
		It's removing the monopoly without destroying the company.
unidentified		So in terms of ownership, I don't think I would agree with you.
		But in terms of, you know, like if we reformed Section 230 for the largest companies to be like a First Amendment standard or something like that, and you were trying to prove in court, say you had a private right of action in the law, you were trying to prove in court that Google was suppressing your content, there would be a discovery, right?
		A discovery phase where you could look at the algorithm, something like that.
		I'm more interested in what you're talking about if it's disclosure of like what it is The actual ownership, I think I'd really struggle.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Well, no one owns it.
		It's AGPL3.
		It's just free software.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The idea would be if you spend 10 years building software code to run a service like Twitter, if they get to a certain size, the code itself is then given to the public who can then take all of that.
		Reverse engineer.
		No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, So Truth Social could be Twitter?
		So yeah, Truth was built off of Mastodon's code.
unidentified		Oh, jeez.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so because it was open source, they're supposed to credit it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I guess they still haven't.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Oh, geez.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		But I think the issue there is what we see every time we try and take away someone's
		property.
		No one's going to invest in building Twitter if they lose that investment.
		You're going to go to a person of means and say, we need $100,000 to build a program that does X. And they're going to say, and in 10 years, where's my money?
		Oh, completely gone because everyone gets it for free.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Maybe social media no longer will be about making money.
		Maybe it's actually going to be about public good for once.
		Who will do that?
		Bill Altman at Minds.
		Does Bill make money?
		We build free software.
		Yeah, and you can make money by selling services related to the software.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Does Bill have investors?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do those investors expect a return on their investment?
unidentified		I don't know.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It's a private company.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It depends on what Bill wants to do.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The answer is yes.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		No, that's public.
		That's the public malaise.
		It's obsessed with making money.
		Private companies don't have to make money.
		Just do your service if you want to.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I think maybe if we're talking about mission-driven culture, where people are like, I want to make a company that does like, like, like, I know the guy who led the investment, the investment in mines quite well, he definitely does care about free speech and open, open software.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		So that's some investors do actually care about that stuff.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		For sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Does he expect to get his money back or make money off of it?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		You'd have to ask him.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		If you want him on the show, he'll be happy to come on, I think.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What did they launch a while ago?
		I have a bill coming on, I think, soon.
		Yeah.
		So we'll talk about a lot of this.
		I think if you want to do...
		What did they launch a while ago?
		B Corps?
		That they're allowed to...
		I could be wrong about this, but someone told me once that they're allowed to...
		A corporation doesn't have to make money.
		They're like a hybrid of a non-profit, for-profit.
		So, whereas most corporations have to make money for their shareholders, they have a fiduciary duty, I think B Corps are the ones that are like a do-good corporation or something like that.
		The goal of Timcast is...
		It's to make money, but mostly about the mission.
		We want to do cool things.
		We want to have an impact.
		That's why we did the Times Square billboard thing.
		I know, I know.
		People are like, we've heard about it.
		Yeah, yeah.
		The point is, I sit back and I look at Elon Musk.
		He's buying Twitter.
		That's what I'm talking about.
		I sit back and I look at Joe Rogan.
		Well, he does his show, but I wonder, does Joe do anything like
		challenging the establishment or the system outside of just his show?
		And if not, because I've not seen it, I wonder why that is.
		There's no way am I saying he's obligated to do so.
		I'm just like, where are the people of wealth and means who are sick of all of this standing up and being like, F
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		you.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		They're in this freaking room.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		You should definitely have the Binds investor on the show, Aaron Wolf.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		He is exactly what you're talking about.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I met him in Austin.
		He's fantastic.
		Love you, Aaron.
unidentified		Part of the problem, unfortunately, is that a lot of the people with means have desires that go against, I think, where we would be at, where a lot of the American people would be at.
		And so, you know, I'll tell you as, you know, we're a very conservative organization.
		When we've been raising money for politics to get involved in these campaigns, it's really hard for conservatives especially to talk about, you know, raising money to do ads on abortion or on the trans stuff or any of that because the donors just aren't out there.
		The donors are much more interested in giving, you know, for, you know, mass immigration or things like that.
		And so I think that's a difficulty that we have.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think one of the issues is that... Except for Elon.
		You know, my view of capitalism is if you do good and you're effective, you will make money.
		If you are providing a service, however, I don't believe in absolute unfettered free markets.
		I think you'll end up with people doing really weird things like metaverse porn where people become carrots and that's probably going to happen anyway.
		And I'm like, I'm pretty libertarian on that, but I do think it's bad for society as a whole, that we'll chase after self-gratification instead of going to space.
		So I'm a huge fan of Elon Musk.
		Go to Mars, Starship, Twitter stuff, Starlink, all really awesome stuff.
		I look at it like traditional idealistic capitalism is, you invent a lightbulb, you illuminate the world, congratulations, you'll be made rich because of it, you are being rewarded by people for saying, we appreciate your service, and now you get to live comfortably because you did something great.
		I think TimCast.com does really good things, and I think we're going to continue to grow and do more good things, and for it, we get rewarded for doing great things.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Nikola Tesla is an example of someone that didn't know how to capitalize.
		What a brilliant, generous, good man from what I know about him, and man, he did not know how to write a patent, or whatever it was, whereas Einstein knew how to patent his stuff and became very, very wealthy.
		And Nikola died a pauper, like he was alone.
		He lived in a hotel room telling people he had a death laser to get to stop, not have to pay for his room every night.
		Just a tragic story of not understanding capitalism.
		And I agree that it is important to at least stay afloat.
		But my light is in heaven, my friend.
		I'm not if I make the light bulbs on earth.
		I don't I don't want the money for it at this point, man.
		I could be dead tomorrow.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think is like a sort of leftist ideal.
		Money is means.
		It's access.
		It's power.
		So if you make code, and that code works really, really well, and you don't get money for it, how do you make more code?
		How do you feed the people who are working for you?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You need what's called, I guess they would call it, not money, but what's the word when someone has capital?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You need capital, which is either workforce power or money.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So how do you feed the people who are going to do the work for you?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		At that point, it's like, farm.
		Grow your own food.
		Inspire them to start growing their own food.
		I don't know.
		I can't feed everybody.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's a guy down the street who's got a whole bunch of corn for sale.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		He did the work.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Money's good.
		Money's good.
		Currency's cool, but we don't always have to use it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is one of, I think, the biggest mistakes that young people make when it comes to entrepreneurship.
		I remember when I was younger and I was talking to some business people.
		I was probably like 20 or 23 or something.
		And then I was like, look, I don't care about a million bucks cash.
		I care about making this thing that works.
		We had a program for non-profit fundraising stuff.
		And they said to me, kid, we'll give you some advice.
		Never tell that to anybody.
		Because investors who want to see this succeed understand that money is how it succeeds.
		You can't run a company off good intentions.
		How are you going to pay your staff?
		How are they going to feed their family?
		How are they going to pay their rent?
		How are they going to pay their mortgage?
		Making money doesn't mean you want a Ferrari.
		It means you want to make sure the machine continues to feed the families of the people who work for you.
		So you want to tell everybody, your goal is to make a company that makes money by doing good.
		And I'm like, good point.
		I get it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		And also, you talk about profit, because making money doesn't mean you're going to make profit.
		So how much profit are you intending to make, and at what cost?
		Psychological cost, or what damage to society?
		It's a lot of unquantifiable concepts.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Everybody thinks they're the good guy.
		Even the people who work for these big petroleum companies are convinced they're the good guys.
		And these activists show up, and they say, you're destroying the planet, and they get violent, and the people who work for these oil companies are like, I'm doing everything in my power to make the world a better place.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You know, at Minds, we had to figure out how addictive do we want to make Minds.com?
		And I was like, 89%?
		That's not ethical.
		You don't want it to be like a gambling network.
		It's the same as how profitable do you want your private company to be?
		Like Elon said, it's not about money.
		Buying Twitter is not about money.
		I assume he's planning on running it at a loss.
		You know, he's just going to subsidize it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think he's talked with Morgan Stanley.
		And if you go to Morgan Stanley and say, if you give me $13 billion, I will lose that money for you.
		They're going to say, get out.
		No, what he did was he went and said, I'm going to save you money.
		How?
		I'm going to, I'm going to dock pay and fire executive staff.
		We're going to turn it around because take a look at this data, these metrics.
		I'm going to put my own money in and collateral.
		And then in three years, we're taking the company public again.
		He exactly told them how to make money.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		It does have to be successful to make an impact.
		I mean.
		And for that, you do need to be at least as addictive as your competitors, surely.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		Maybe, but do you really want to play their game?
		Like, can you become evil to beat evil?
		I don't know if... I understand what you mean, but you can make it more addictive if you want to.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You know what I was thinking?
		Mines has tokens, right?
		When you use Mines.com, you can generate crypto that's worth money.
		Every post should have a slot machine in it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You could do that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Then no one will ever leave the website.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		That would be like a gamification mod for Mines that I built.
		We could still install it one day where you get avatars and you can spend Mines tokens to get characters that you can send out on missions every day to go get.
		And then if you click the notification at the right moment, then they get the item when they come back and then you have like a hall of fame with your item.
		Like, you just dump money.
		It's just a money sink.
		But like, how gamified and addictive... Mine is just a beautiful piece of free software that I want to be... But it's like, yeah.
		Like, how sensational do we need to be?
		My biggest flaw in life, personally, is charity.
		I'm too charitable.
		I've always been too charitable.
		I give my wealth away before I get it.
		And I haven't used my money to make money because I feel like it just felt dirty.
		So thank you for making the money for me, Tim.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll give you a... I'll break it down for you in a way that you can understand, Ian.
		You are playing a game of magic, and you have all of the planes before you with the good, righteous knights and the angels, and they're all good and charitable and trying to protect the people.
		And so you say, I'm gonna give this power away.
		And then along comes a necromancer, who's loaded with swamps, and he goes, Yes, Ian.
		Give me the power!
		I'll help everyone and you're like sounds good to me and you give him the power and then he laughs at you as he
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Burns everything down charity. They say it's a virtue, but it's also a vice
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It can be I guess very very evil people would love to get access to the free code
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And let me just tell you these these left censorious people.
		They like Zuckerberg He's probably so excited whenever he sees the free code
		come out and he's like, great, I can add some of this to my empire.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but he's gonna have to free his too. That would be great.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		If YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter's code was available to make new networks with it all, that'd be super cool.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why is it that Gab, Parler...
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Interoperability is like a huge deal. That could really break the big tech power.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why is it that the Twitter alternatives haven't taken off?
		Like, why doesn't Mines have more users than Facebook?
		I mean, it's better, right?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I think because Twitter was already there.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		The first and best dressed, I've heard you mention before.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So with Facebook and Twitter, it's because people are there.
		The real platform is the people.
		I don't do anything on Facebook.
		Facebook has all these weird features I don't care about.
		I use Messenger.
		Why?
		Because people are on it.
		And so when I want to message someone, I can message them on Facebook.
		I use Twitter?
		Mostly?
		Well, mostly to just troll because people are on it.
		But there's less of an impact on other platforms because people aren't on it.
		I don't care what Twitter can do.
		I can post words, people can get mad about it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it'd be cool if you could log into Twitter and then see your mines.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Like, it was linked to mines and to gas.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But what would happen if Twitter's code was forcibly revealed and released to the people?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Um, I can't, I can't foresee exactly.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Nobody would leave.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It would get used.
		Yeah.
		Nobody would go do anything.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Maybe, maybe, maybe Gab might implement some of it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Maybe Parler and Getter and Truth might implement some of it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		And Mines, we talked about.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And Mines.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And then everyone would be like, yeah, but everyone's on Twitter, so I'll use that instead.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Or you could, but you could get the same experience on, well, you'd have a different experience, but you'd have the same information from different, it just depends on how you want to go at it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to come with your Gab, through Gab?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think the issue is your perspective on this is rooted in... you're looking at code, because that's where you come from, not realizing that people care about people, not code.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		No, I come from entertainment.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm an actor.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's my... I mean, like, with Mines.
		You're looking at these social media companies from this Mines perspective, and what makes Twitter work is that Twitter has people.
		That's it.
		Twitter could reduce the amount of characters back to 140.
		It's still gonna be the dominant platform.
unidentified		Which, which by the way is why, and I think Alam and I have both talked, written about this, but this is why the, you know, build your own doesn't work.
		Unfortunately.
		I really want Truth Social to work.
		I really want Keter to work, but people want to go where the people are, right?
		It's that little mermaid, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like you can, you can, it's like, imagine if someone said, if, if the lake gets to a certain amount of users, they have to build a lake or give someone all of the means to build their own lake.
		It's like, okay.
		I go to the beach because there's fish.
		Or I go to the lake to fish because there's fish.
		If someone else builds a lake and there's no fish in it, I can't fish there.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		But what you can do is build a channel from one lake to the other.
		If there's, like, your lake has all the fish in the middle, and then there's, like, a thousand other lakes, but they have no fish, you just build a thousand canals.
		But you can't... Everyone can fish together.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You can't force Twitter to allow that interoperability.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you can break up monopolies, that's for sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
		What I'm saying is... Some of the code doesn't change that.
		If you're saying you want to pass a law that says they have to...
		Create interoperability between other networks?
		Let's have a conversation about that.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		The ideal would be if it was easy for everyone to just make a post that it gets broadcast to Twitter, to Gab, to Minds, to all the platforms instantaneously.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		But that doesn't happen without interoperability to some extent.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we tried to do that with Minds in the early days, but we didn't have access to the code, so we couldn't do it.
		Yeah.
		Using their proprietary APIs and stuff.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and the great thing about platforms like Mines and Gab that are based on values is that you know when you go on them, they're not going to sell you out in free speech.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		It's not going to be like Twitter where they promised it to you in the first few years and then took it away from you years later after you built your following.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think Gab may have banned advocacy of porn.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they did.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		So they're not a completely free speech platform, but they're not going to ban you for political speech.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't agree.
		I don't even, I don't even trust minds and I helped build the network.
		You can't give that power to one person because if Bill leaves and another guy comes in, he can ban everyone.
		But I think that's fine.
		That's the private network if it wants to do it.
		That's why I have my own version of it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Will Gabb ban you for saying, I believe a law should be passed legalizing porn, blah, blah, blah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		My understanding is that Torba said, I could be wrong, so, you know, Torba, if I'm wrong about this, but there was a tweet where they said, you will not be allowed to advocate for this, you'll be banned, degenerate, or something like that.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I describe Gab as a free speech friendly platform.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		For ideas that they like.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		They're not completely free speech, I'll grant you that.
		Well, I mean, to Gab's own admission.
		They will admit that themselves, yes.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		They're private companies.
		They can ban whoever they want, and that shouldn't change.
		But we should also be able to spin up our own versions of it so that I can ban whoever I want.
		It'll create a marketplace of terms as opposed to a marketplace of code.
unidentified		My position is, Gab is different than Twitter, right?
		So I'm pretty comfortable with Gab banning whoever they want.
		I don't want them to, but if they do, they do.
		You know, if Christian Mingle wants to only have Christians on their site, that's fine.
		But once you become the actual digital public square, you have different responsibilities.
		And that's where, like, I think Section 230 comes in, ultimately.
		Like, you know, we like Section 230 for the small guys, for the medium guys.
		But once you're the largest guys, Twitter, Facebook, Google, I think you have an obligation to speech.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't the famous quote, free as in freedom, not as in beer, when it came to open source and free software?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it doesn't mean it doesn't cost anything.
		It means that it's free and available for people to use.
		No, like, you're free in the United States.
		That doesn't mean that you don't cost anything.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Free as in freedom means you can use these platforms to be free, but it's not free as in beer.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like, we just give it to you.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Yeah, you can still sell free software, for instance.
		My problem with what you're saying is having anyone in charge, even if Section 230 is like, you have to do this and this.
		Having any one or group of people in charge of free speech is antithetical to free speech.
		Agreed.
unidentified		Well, I mean, the responsibility of government is to secure the liberties of its citizens.
		So technically, I mean, that is putting free speech in the hands of government.
		A government can either respect it or not respect it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Government is irrelevant.
		Culture is everything.
		The Constitution says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
		Good luck in New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Hawaii, California.
		I mean, the list goes on.
		Your rights are absolutely infringed.
		I love bringing this up.
		Maryland has banned the M1A.
		I believe it's a 308.
		It might be a 762, actually.
		They're sort of interchangeable, but the pressure is different.
		So I think it might be 762.
		IP762. Uh, SCAR-20S, the more AR style 308, legal!
		It's, it's remarkably insane.
		KSG-25, double mag tube, 25 round pump-action shotgun.
		Totally legal!
		Semi-auto Benelli?
		Illegal!
		The laws make literally no sense.
		So your rights are infringed upon to absurd degrees.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		It's about who's in charge and where they're in charge.
		And, you know, we're talking about government solutions to the problem of tech centralization and big tech.
		I help persuade Republicans that they should actually abandon some of the free market stuff when it comes to regulating big tech.
		I was doing that when they had power in 2017 and 18, but the people who have power now are the Democrats
		and they are never going to pass any kind of bill that will make censorship harder.
		In fact, they're gonna try and pass bills that make censorship easier.
		And that's something we have to be very cautious about because there are lots of interests
		that want Republicans to jump on every single anti-big tech effort, just because anti-big tech,
		but we need to look at the detail of the bills.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Then we need a convention of states and term limits because we can't get these people to vote term limits for
		themselves.
		But we need them out.
		They don't understand what is going on in the tech sector.
		There's too many of them and they don't know.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		know this is crazy. Well let's take section 230 as an example. There are
		many bad ways to reform section 230. Disney has been pushing section 230
		reform behind the scenes in DC for a very long time because they they hate
		big tech. They think big tech has made it easier to steal their copyrighted
		materials. Their section 230 reforms are almost always bad.
		In fact most of the section 230 reforms pushed by corporations are almost
		always bad.
		There's just one specific part of the law that allows them to
		to censor anything they consider to be objectionable.
		That is the part that needs to change.
		And anything else that people are coming to you saying, we need to reform Section 230 this way or that,
		or abolish it altogether, be very cautious of them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's go to Super Chats.
		If you haven't already, please hit that like button, smash it, and subscribe to this channel.
		Share the show with your friends if you really want to help us out, and go to TimCast.com.
		Become a member to support our journalists, to support our work, and we're gonna have a members-only show that goes up at 11 p.m.
		Monday through Thursday.
		That'll be up tonight.
		Let's read what you guys have to say.
		Fairshark says, Can Ian explain why graphene is better than borafine, or is borafine the future?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I got sent the borafine.
		Have you seen the video?
		Forget graphene, borafine!
		I'm like, alright, first of all, they're probably both awesome.
		And I started to watch a video, I watched like three minutes of it.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I don't know anything about borafine yet.
		I guess I should.
		I got like 25 people have sent me that video.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Alright, Caleb South says, Ian is what happens when you put your points in intelligence and charisma, but use wisdom as a dump stat.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Love you man, never change.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's funny.
		Maybe I'm not as wise as I think.
		Wise.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Elvin says, Tornadoes in Oklahoma tonight just saw a pot farm get demolished on News 9.
		Whoa, crazy, man.
		Hope everybody's alright.
		Do you guys see that viral video from the drone of the tornado ripping through?
		Was it Kansas or something?
unidentified		No.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Crazy video.
unidentified		Wild.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Just like houses just coming off the ground and just flying away.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we have these human problems, but it's good to put things in perspective sometimes.
unidentified		Alright.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What is this?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Joseph Laliberte says, I want this guy with an accent to break me about why Argyle socks are better than just plain black ankle socks.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		What?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Wait, I didn't even understand the question.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think he's assuming you're wearing argyle socks.
unidentified		Are you?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I'm wearing pure black socks right now.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Maybe I'm not a proper English person, I guess.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		All right.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		That's a, what's the word, amalgam?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we got a sweet chat from somebody with no name.
		What say you about in vitro fertilization and the possible 10 plus fertilized eggs some of these women may have?
		Should the states that outlaw abortion force women to birth all of these?
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		You're asking me?
		I would say I really have a dark opinion of IVF because they are fertilizing and then discarding of many human eggs.
		I see this as a big issue and I think we definitely need to reform that process.
		I think that everyone should be looking at adoption before they look at IVF.
		That's just my two cents.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Jumping back to socks, it just occurred to me that Justin Trudeau ruined elaborate socks for everyone.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he did!
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But so if a woman does get IV, or IVF, sorry, and she has ten, you know, viable fetuses in her, like, getting to work, what should she do?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Just have ten babies?
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what to say to that.
		She probably should have thought of that before she got IVF.
		I figured that'd be the answer.
		I see it's completely preventable, you know?
		I don't know.
		Tough.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of like how they used to have like ten kids and only two of them would survive, and now they're just doing it in the womb.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Alright, Adrienne Contreras says, this dude should be giving awesome gadgets to James Bond with that accent.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Did you know Alan is James Bond?
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he is, yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ken says, heard 10-year-old in other room listening to Freedom Tunes.
		He said it was recommended.
		I don't talk politics with kid.
		He assured me it's funny, dad.
		That's right.
		Freedom Tunes is very funny.
unidentified		That's fantastic.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Caveman says, get Tom McDonald on the show.
		Tim, you mentioned it a while back.
		Yeah, I've talked to Tom before.
		He's a rad dude.
		It's up to him.
		I mean, he's a busy guy, you know.
		Raymond G. Stanley Jr.
		says, Biden, the great unifier.
		It's working.
		It's working.
		Matthew Reckham says, To everyone who keeps saying we're in dark times now, let me remind you that the movie Demolition Man, based on Brave New World and predicted self-driving electric cars, Zoom meetings, culturally enforced germophobia, and more is set in 2032.
		Buckle up, Buttercup.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		That is an absolute classic.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Everyone go watch that movie.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I love when they're like, he doesn't know how to use the shells.
		That was good.
		You saw it, right?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Demolition Man?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		He gets frozen and goes to the future.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and everyone's like... Oh no, I'm thinking of Judge Dredd.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		They're very similar.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Demolition Man was Van Damme, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		He gets frozen and then they take him out in the future to stop a terrorist.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Or am I thinking of Time Cop?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And every time he swears, a machine prints out a ticket, a fine for swearing.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		He just swears a bunch more.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's great.
		All right, let's grab some more.
		to the bathroom and he's like, how do I do this? There's no toilet paper and they're like, use the
		shells. And he's like, what? So then he walks up and starts swearing and then takes all the paper
		and goes to the bathroom with it. Oh, that's perfect. Yeah, it's a good movie. Free paper.
unidentified		All right, let's grab some more. What is this?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Roberto Lara says, I was hoping for far right musketeers, but ultra MAGA sounds like whoever
		wrote that for Biden copy, stole it from Goku's power levels.
		Biden is literally stealing from history and making everyone forget the actual history.
		Somebody said, I think I may have missed it, but they were like, we need a Trump anime, One Punch Man.
		You guys ever see One Punch Man?
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It was really, really popular among non-anime fans for some reason.
		And it's like, it's a good.
		It's about a guy who's just like, for some reason, godly and he'd like punch and defeat anybody, but he's kind of dumb.
		So it's funny.
		But I'd love to see a one Trump man.
		And it's just like, someone made, um, there's an anime called My Hero Academia.
		And they made it, there's the superhero in it that everyone loves is called All Might.
		So then someone made a comic called Wall Might, and it's Trump as the main guy.
		Superhero Trump.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Someone is working on an ultra-mega comic book right now.
unidentified		It's gonna be great.
unidentified		It's gonna be amazing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Chris Light says, we love TimCast IRL, but Tim, please stop saying Russell Feathers.
		It's Ruffle Feathers.
		LMAO.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Russell Jimmies.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Russell Jimmies.
		Is that what it is?
		I was combining the two.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's true.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Good combo.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Joseph Liberty says, can you bring the dad off of Gen X Talks on here?
		I don't know who that is.
		Who is that?
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Maxwell Griffin says, why don't people identify as Supreme Court justices and vote to uphold Roe v. Wade?
		That's a great idea.
		I identify.
		They want to expand the court.
		Cigars and Sig Arms.
		The U.S.
		government is the most violent and extreme group that has ever existed in this country.
		Their body count of innocent people is in the millions.
unidentified		Beast.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I believe that is true and correct.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Lots of children, too, under Obama.
unidentified		Dead.
unidentified		Alright.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Raymond G. Stanley Jr.
		says, will it ever stop?
		Yo, I don't know.
		Light up the base and I'll glow to the extreme.
		I rock MAGA-like Ultra Civil War.
		Yeah, Tim told ya.
		Ice Ice Baby.
		Wonderful!
unidentified		Alright.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't completely disagree with that, but the right's sure been winning a whole lot of stuff in the past week or so.
		It's been crazy.
		It's been great.
		It's been just chaos and implosion among the left.
		right Her husband works for Soros.
unidentified		No way.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Really?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is that true?
unidentified		Oh, that's insane.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
unidentified		Hmm.
unidentified		Interesting.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Cornelius says, I missed last night's stream, so I'm sending this now.
		Ian, the human brain isn't finished developing until around 25 years old, so can we abort children and young adults then?
		Being born doesn't make you human, it is what you are.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		No, abort is in reference to a pregnancy that is aborted, so anyone that's already born cannot be aborted by that definition.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Also, no, the answer is no to your question.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Paul Renfer says, when is the Freedom Tunes stereotypical animation parody where Trump supporters power up and get Trump hair?
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a good bit, actually.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Their hair turns gold, but instead of spiking like Goku, it swirls like Trump.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Ultra mega.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Navy Sooner says, since we know what National Socialism is, can we change the Dem Party to the Glotzy Party?
		Global Socialist Party?
		Time to start demonizing them like they do to everybody else.
		You know, I think what works, though, is that we don't play their stupid games.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That regular people are looking for the truth, and when the Democrats lie, they go... If you just come out and start lying the way they do, people are going to be like, eh, screw it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What's the point?
unidentified		And you have to have the institutional power to lie and get away with it.
unidentified		If we lie, they'll just point it out.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think when boomers age out, as it were, cable news is gone.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Just completely gone.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Unless Congress protects that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Bails them out.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		But the key demo viewership is in the hundreds of thousands.
		I think Tucker Carlson is like 4 or 500.
		And then CNN is like 89,000 people.
		Like, that's crazy.
		I posted a Chicken City video and it got more views than some of these hosts on CNN get.
		It's remarkable.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I will say politicians do listen to the old media more than new media because they don't understand new media and how powerful it is.
unidentified		It depends.
unidentified		If they want to run for president, then they start to listen to the new media.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		They actually say that this new alternative media is the fifth estate.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		And I guess the first three estates are the three branches of government.
unidentified		I had to look it up.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		I was really curious.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		OG Lesbian says, Tim, I'm still laughing at the firefighter comment the other day, although we don't agree on everything.
		I love watching your show.
		Hey, really appreciate it.
unidentified		What comment?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We were, when we were talking about, was that, was that the story, the joke we made about how the woman would give birth to a baby?
unidentified		Oh yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Leave it at the fire department.
		You can drop babies off at the fire department.
		And then the joke was like, this is actually how you make new firefighters.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Daily polish, Chuck.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they have to they have to raise the baby now.
		And the baby is like just like the firefighter teaching how to fight fires.
		And then you end up with this superhero firefighter telling a story about how he came to be the best firefighter in the world.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		I love it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That was really funny.
		The firefighters teaching him to cook.
		OG Lesbian says, I'm convinced my mom is a NPC.
unidentified		Oh no.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm sad to hear it.
unidentified		That sucks.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's crazy.
		When you talk to the DMT people, proponents of it, about this stuff, it's weird how the psychedelic and the political kind of merge.
		Because a lot of people were saying NPC, non-player character, as kind of an insult, referencing someone just not paying attention and not caring.
		But then you talk to the people about DMT and you're like, oh man.
		Because, you know, we were talking to Michael Malice, and I may be getting this wrong, but he was saying, like, we're, like, meat puppets of some kind of entities or something.
		And then I'm like, what if some people don't have an entity controlling them the way, you know, you do when you do DMT?
		Like, are those NPCs?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Calcification of the pineal gland.
		They can be shaken awake, of course.
		You can't have an NPC without PC in there.
		Yeah, they seem like NPCs because they're not like aware, as aware as you are, but that doesn't mean that they're not available to play.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Sean Anderson says there are two things that hold the USA together.
		Boomers and the dollar.
		The next 10 years we'll see both become irrelevant.
unidentified		Yeah, we were talking about the Russia-Ukraine stuff.
		The dollar, the American hegemony over the dollar.
		This is something that's going to be a huge story coming up because Russia found ways to kind of go around by selling their oil.
		They're in an alliance with China on this stuff, so it's going to be really, really scary.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's interesting because when we talk about, um, Strauss-Howe generational theory, we're looking at, I think, the end of the winter, the fourth turning, in 2028, which means 2026 should be extreme turmoil.
		I wonder if four more years is enough to see many boomers and older generation leave, younger generation come in that will create a massive upset.
		I don't know.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It's possible.
		I fear my concern is without term limits in Congress that it won't.
		They're just going to ride the wave into the ground.
		I can't.
		Mathematically, I don't see any other.
		It seems probable.
		I'm into term limits.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ready to rumbles as I can't.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		The question is, where are the time limits for the deep state?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Four years.
		Yeah.
		For all administrative state.
unidentified		You'd have to do both.
unidentified		I think you would have.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		That's what Thomas Massey said, too.
unidentified		Yeah.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I think it was Thomas.
		No, it wasn't.
		It was.
		Sorry to interrupt you.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ready to Rumble says, I can't believe you just med Seinfeld.
		Seinfeld was the funniest TV show ever created.
		You need more Seinfeld in your life, Tim.
		You know, maybe it was at the time, because I remember watching it, but I wonder if it's like a certain kind of humor for what, like Boomers and Gen X?
		It's a show about nothing.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's not a show about nothing.
		It's a show about four friends who have emotional problems and, and like, That was that was the idea.
		They tried claiming Seinfeld to show about nothing.
		No, it's for friends and They have interpersonal drama like any other sitcom It's about a comedian living in New York with a wacky neighbor and a short friend who has life troubles And there were a lot of really the show was really funny in a lot of ways But I feel like that kind of humor.
		Maybe it was a lot funnier back in the day I don't find it as funny today.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It was groundbreaking when it came out, right?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		It was a Michael Richards really one of my physical comedy was off the charts.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I One of my favorite episodes.
		Well, I just watched a funny bit.
		It was on, I think Reddit post.
		Someone posted it on Twitter.
		Uh, who was it?
		It might've been Elijah Schaefer posted this.
		He, uh, someone said, everyone needs a friend like Kramer.
		Kramer walks into Jerry's apartment and he's like, Hey, I got to go over to do this thing.
		Do you want to?
		And then Kramer goes, sure.
		And he's like, I could have just said anything, huh?
		And he's like, I don't know, just walk out.
		Kramer was great.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I was thinking about this recently.
		I think traditional comedians can't compete with the Internet because they don't have that instant feedback.
		Like, they never had to subject themselves to Reddit upvotes or having replies on a 4chan thread.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, comedians go do stand-up to test out their jokes and then go on tour.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		With the Internet, you can try things out in real time.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you're doing it with thousands and tens of thousands of people.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		One of the best episodes of Seinfeld is when George decides to do everything the opposite of what he would normally do, because he's like, his life sucks.
		He can't get a date.
		His job is, you know, so he's like, whatever I'm going to do, I'm gonna do the opposite of it.
		And so he like orders the opposite sandwich than you normally would.
		Everything goes great for him.
		That was brilliant writing.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		That was great.
		I thought Larry David's Steinbrenner was incredible.
		Incredible.
		Oh, I figured out it was Tom Garrett that was talking about term limits for the administrative state when he was on the show.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ah, yes.
		We've had many a conversation about limits.
		It's tough.
		It is a difficult conversation because then you get rid of the Ron Pauls, you know?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Or the Rand Pauls, but like we said up to now, I love Rand Paul, I love Rand Paul, and then you see he votes for something or he's unsupportive for something like what we were talking about earlier.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		James Nelson says, Ian doesn't get it.
		The code is worthless and can be reverse engineered.
		Big Tech's power comes from its user base.
		They have critical mass.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's why the interoperability part of it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		So you get not only the software code, but the access to the people as well.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't know how you mandate a company to build a thing, you know?
		Like, you can't go to an Apple orchard and be like, we mandate that you build an Apple launcher.
		They're gonna be like, okay, we can't do that.
		Well, you have to!
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You mean command Google to interoperate with other people?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Going to Twitter and saying, you need to now make your company able to interact with other networks in it, they can be like, you're asking us to build a thing we don't know how to build.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		No, that has happened before.
		They did it to the telephone companies way back in the day.
		They did it to British retail banks after the financial crisis.
		They forced them to give all their customers their data in a universal standardized format so they could easily transfer it between banks.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		But so I'm talking about they have to build a bridge.
		So I suppose it's one thing to be like, I think the EU wanted to standardize phone chargers so that every phone would use the same charger and they'd stop having this problem with all these different chargers.
		The issue with Twitter is that you're asking them to build a protocol for which their things on Twitter can be transported in real time actively forever between different networks.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I think that it's already there.
		It's there.
		It's just proprietary at this point.
		The API.
unidentified		It's a question of, you know, can they continue to be profitable and be a successful business if you ask them to do this?
		Where I don't think it's ever fair or smart for government to say, let's, you know, force this company to build this and then they would rather go out of business.
		Right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's it's it's I don't think it's possible to force their API open to require Twitter to send their data out to third parties because it would But if you're on Gab and I'm reading your Twitter feed, Twitter's still getting my activity, even though I'm on Gab.
		and then they're losing what makes the network work in the first place.
		Twitter needs to be able to make money unless you want to nationalize it and
		pay for it through taxpayers.
		Then it's forced subsidization.
		But if Twitter has to give its code away and then people do decide with
		interoperability, I can go to Gab instead.
		Then Twitter loses membership in advertising revenue and collapses.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		But if you're on, if you're on Gab and I'm reading your Twitter feed, Twitter
		still getting my activity, even though I'm on Gab, but they're not running ads.
		No, I think the ad revenue model is dead.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So then they're not going to get the memberships?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You might be able to work out memberships where like if someone subscribes to the mega network or that Twitter gets 24%, Gab gets 20%, Mines gets 20%, or if you subscribe and you're connected with like what networks are you in that you want to pay for, they all get a piece of it with a smart contract?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't think the answer is for the government to go in with a sledgehammer and just destroy Twitter, as much as I like the idea.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think it's that we have to build these open source interoperable systems and make people use them.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Also, do we like the idea?
		This is another reason I want to come back to, you know, look at what the tech regulations are on an individual level and also who they apply to.
		You know, you asked me two months ago, should we regulate Twitter?
		I'd say yes.
		You asked me today, I'd say no, maybe not.
		Because it's not about, you know, do we support regulation or do we not support regulation, but who's in charge, who's in charge of enforcing the regulation, wackos at the FTC, and who's going to be affected by them.
		Luckily, not Twitter under most of the antitrust laws, but I'm sure the Democrats will try.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Also, what is the regulation?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		That's a vague term.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
		You gotta look at each individual proposed regulation to see what it does, and importantly, who will enforce it.
		There's a crazy person they hired at the FTC called Meredith Whittaker, and the FTC is going to be enforcing a lot of the antitrust stuff.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think Zack Bell might have the best response to Ian.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		He says, Please explain how freeing the code won't just open up the floodgates to allow hackers to utilize or even destroy the system.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Um, well, there's security code that you don't have to open up, but as long as the network itself is available to be interoperated with from a user-based perspective, I think that kind of solves the problem.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And then what they'll do is they'll entwine specific core functionality with security and say, you can't do anything about it.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've never seen a network have all their security open.
		I mean, that makes no sense.
		That'd be like leaving copies of your key on the front porch, you know?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ian, if they don't give up their code for security, how could someone actually spin up their own version?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You don't need, you don't, well, they would get destroyed.
		See, I'm not a code guy.
		I'm not a coder.
		So I would like to bring people that are code developers in to talk, have a greater conversation about that.
		Cause that's a good question.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So, uh, to clarify, to expand upon this for those that don't understand the, if a random, if, if the whole world knew Facebook's code, they would find every exploit imaginable to break in, spy, steal, and destroy everything from the company.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You'd also have people empowering, like strengthening the code and making it more resistant.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's not, it's not open source.
		So they could probably do like bug hunt and then good people might help, but they're called zero.
		So a zero day exploit means it spent zero days in the public sphere.
		You open up the code from these companies and.
		You're going to have a million hackers discovering a million zero days, and then you're going to cross your fingers the good guys will find out.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Mines doesn't have their security code is not free.
		That would be insane, because then people could just hack it like you're saying.
		But you can still interoperate with Mines.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What about the code for logging in?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I don't know.
		I gotta ask Bill.
		I'd have to go.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because if they release their code that allows you to create your login system, then you are not secure and anyone can just enter your account.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we need a unique login, like a passport, where you can log into other networks with your personal passport wallet type thing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like Facebook.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's kind of what we're building with the foundation.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think the issue is any code for any functionality of mines that goes out allows someone to exploit the system and makes it so you're not safe.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Any so they have to any code.
		And I was reading all about the ones in chat.
		Sorry, I was distracted.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The code for for like the recommendation algorithm.
		That's probably fine.
		But someone will then exploit the recommendation algorithm to
		maximize viewership for themselves.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		If it's one, I'm really not as concerned with security as I am
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		with freedom at this point.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I, I could agree with that to the extent that for this show, for
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		instance, we have to have security because.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying that we shouldn't have security.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But at a certain point, you get so big, you have to have it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If we didn't have security, I don't know if we could keep doing the show.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		In the United States, they say it's freedom, then security.
		But without the security, we wouldn't have no freedom.
		If we didn't guard and protect our borders and our streets with police and military, we wouldn't be free to walk around without getting our back stabbed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So the issue is Facebook is so big, If they released their code, they would be destroyed instantly.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		No, it's too big.
		It would take a long time and bad policies for them to lose their users at that point.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's read some more Super Chats!
		Sterile Hybrid says, this is for last night's episode, As an intersex person, I'm no fan of trans ideology.
		Sex does not exist on a spectrum.
		As a result of my condition, I'm a mix between the two.
		Not some magical third sex, nor a transgender prop.
		Interesting.
		James says Coca-Cola has a billion users a day.
		Should they release their secret recipe?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Not unless they're part of the commons.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		If everyone uses Coca-Cola's network every day to communicate with each other or to get from place to place.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Alright, Calvin Ramsey says, Hey Tim, 30-year-old skater here.
		Curious who your favorite skaters are currently.
		Been digging Ace Pelka and Mike Anderson lately.
		Love the show.
		Johnny Geiger is... I hope I'm getting his name right.
		Yeah, Johnny.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		One of the best.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		He's a flip trick guy.
		And just absolutely one of the best.
		Really great game of skate with him over at the Barracks.
		I forgot the name of the guy he was up against.
		Jocelyn, I'm actually wearing his shoes right now.
		And these are like some of the best shoes.
		Oh, you can't even see it because the camera's in the way.
		So I got the Jocelyn's on right now.
		These are great shoes.
		I've mostly been doing inline recently.
		Just because I'm just having fun.
		Just doing something new and something different.
		So I haven't, I just kind of felt like I got to the point in skateboarding where I've done too much.
		Like, I've just done so much in skateboarding.
		I wanted to do something different.
		So I started blading.
		We got some people here who blade and everyone kind of does it.
		The other issue too was we built the skate park.
		Nobody used it.
		It was literally just me skating by myself all the time.
		And the thing about inline is that almost everyone knows how to inline.
		So it's like you get a pair of blades and someone can put them on and at least ride around and go do stuff.
		So it's actually just easier to do community stuff with inline.
		But still skating every so often.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		I thought a good thing to get would be those rings, you know, the hanging, swinging rings.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Like, that'd be a cool thing to get.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we gotta, we wanna do some kind of, like, parkour little thing.
		Maybe we can do it in the front.
		Because, arm day.
		Gotta get, gotta get arm day.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Hugh Jennings says, never listened to Alan before.
		His voice reminds me of Alec Guinness.
		A lot of people commenting on your voice.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		That's a huge, a huge compliment.
		I am going to give gadgets to James Bond after this, by the way.
		He's just finishing his, uh, gender transition.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh yes.
		And racial transition, right?
		That's right.
unidentified		Okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What did we do?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I just had one.
unidentified		Where did it go?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Stuart Cooper says Techie Me partially sees Ian's point of view on the free of the source code, but Creator Me sees an issue.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The intellectual property loss could apply to written work such as novels and screenplays.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Not if they're not the commons.
		This is a very unique type of technology.
		Screenplays are not used to communicate across large swaths.
		No, I'm talking about communication tech platforms.
		It's a very specific function.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, maybe there would have to be something like... Well, first of all, the security issue, I think you can't get around.
		Like, if people can see the code for how Messenger works on Facebook, they will learn how to inject and take over Messenger.
		And you can already do it.
unidentified		China will do it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, so, when I went to Venezuela, I was, say, you know, doing a bit of trolling, too, because they were threatening me and stuff.
		When I left, I got a message from a friend of mine saying, dude, what's going on?
		The FBI called me.
		You need to call me back right now.
		So I call him, he doesn't answer.
		Call him, he doesn't answer.
		Call him, he doesn't answer.
		Wait a few hours, he calls me back and he's like, this is someone I hadn't talked to in like four years.
		And he was like, dude, what's going on?
		You calling me all morning?
		And I was like, what's up with this FBI hitting you up?
		And he says, what are you talking about?
		And I was like, you messaged me on Facebook.
		And he was like, no, no, I didn't do that.
		I haven't talked to you in like four years.
		And I was like, OK, I got a message from you on Facebook saying the FBI called you.
		It's like, bro, I didn't I didn't do that.
		So what we think was I consulted with some security experts.
		I screenshotted the image, sent it to him.
		I think I still have it, actually.
		I think I posted it not too long ago.
		And what they said was Venezuelan hackers did an injection attack on Facebook.
		They knew where to send certain information to make it appear as though my friend had messaged me.
		They wanted me to make a phone call so they could pinpoint my location by triangulating cell towers.
		They thought I was still in the country.
		I wasn't.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, those networks are compromised anyway.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		And we need peer-to-peer encrypted messaging on basically as a function written into our daily behavior.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		McChilla says Facebook has an entire library of open source code to support developers.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It literally took me 15 seconds to figure that out on Google.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		There's some, yeah.
		Most companies have some open source code.
		Google does, too.
		Alphabet, I guess I should call it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		SeriouslyJK says, Ian, I am an expert on IP law and am a SME in software architecture.
		You have no idea what your ideas even mean.
		You don't understand open source, SW licenses, or business.
		It's brutal to listen to you say this stuff.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		That's really vague, man.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		You gotta be a little more specific if you want to make an argument.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Max Stahl says, Tim have you ever thought about what it'd be like to be the carrot from pajama Sam? What is pajama
		Sam?
		I don't know what that means Jxn says Twitter is working on freeing the code by
		developing an open standard for social media See Jack Dorsey's December 11th through 19th thread on Twitter.
		Search Twitter is funding a small on Google first result.
		Yeah, I know he's been saying he's never done it.
		That's why I'm kind of like, eh, I don't know, whatever.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		We're working on right now with open index protocol as part of the package that we're building right now.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		All right, Patrice Bake, we'll do this last one, says, Lydia, Karlyn Borisenko challenged you to a boxing match.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		She's well informed about women leaving the left.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Boxing match, huh?
		I'm pretty sure I'm about a foot taller than her, but we could try.
		We're probably in different weight classes.
		Might be fun.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		All right, everybody, if you have not already, please smash that like button to help support our work.
		Subscribe to this channel, share the show, take the URL, post it wherever, because the grassroots marketing is how we've grown this show and got to the point where we are, so eternally grateful for all the support.
		Head over to TimCast.com, be a member.
		We're going to have that members-only show coming up at 11 p.m.
		You can follow the show at TimCast IRL.
		You can follow me personally at TimCast, basically everywhere.
		I guess me saying that has resulted in people following me on Twitter, because I was just thinking, like, why do I have so many Twitter followers?
		I guess that's it!
		Well, thank you for following me!
unidentified		Elon's probably helping too.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Elon tweeted out that meme and me crazy days.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Uh, Alan, you guys want to shout anything out, Alan?
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		Uh, just as always, follow my writing at BrightBartNews.
allum bokhari ▲ ● ▼		I post my articles on Twitter as well for the latest happenings in the world of Silicon Valley bias and censorship.
unidentified		I have a big paper coming out tomorrow about Big Tech's interference in the 2020 election.
		It's bigtechpaper.app.
		Cool.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Awesome.
		And Twitter?
		What's your Twitter handle?
unidentified		JohnSchweppe.
ian crossland ▲ ● ▼		Beautiful.
		You guys follow me at iancrossland.net where you can find all my social medias and get in touch with me there.
		I'll catch you later.
lydia smith ▲ ● ▼		Thank you guys for tuning in this evening.
		I had a great time learning about all this techie stuff and a lot of fun talking to these two cool dudes.
		You guys can follow me on Twitter and Mines.com at Sour Patch Lids.
		Sour Patch Lids.
		I forgot my own name.
		And you guys may see all my socials at SourPatchLids.me.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for hanging out, everybody.
		We will see you all at TimCast.com.
		In the meantime, why don't you go watch some Chicken Sleep over at YouTube.com slash Chicken City or ChickenCityLive.com.
		Thanks for hanging out.
		We'll see y'all soon.

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