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March 3, 2022 - Timcast IRL - Tim Pool
02:10:17
Timcast IRL - US Cancels ICBM Test Launch Amid Warnings Of Nuclear War w/Maajid Nawaz
Participants
Main voices
i
ian crossland
14:02
m
maajid nawaz
54:08
s
seamus coughlin
07:14
t
tim pool
52:08
Appearances
l
lydia smith
01:40
| Copy link to current segment

Speaker Time Text
tim pool
Peace.
I think this shows the U.S.
is taking it seriously, and I think it's good news.
I think it shows that there is an interest in preventing it.
Right now we're hearing that Russia is... Well, their foreign minister has said World War III will be nuclear, it will be devastating, effectively telling NATO, if you interfere in Ukraine with what's going on, You're gonna start World War 3, it's gonna be nuclear, and I think the one thing we should all be focusing on is whatever we can to make sure something like that doesn't happen.
I don't believe in mutually assured destruction, though, and we'll get into that.
I do think a nuclear war would be devastating, but I don't think it would be like the movies.
So, I will just stress, it is good news that it's happening.
We have a bunch of really crazy news, though, coming out of what's happening with Ukraine.
EA Sports is going to be removing Russian teams from video games.
The Ironman is banning Russian and Belarusian athletes.
These are civilians.
They're talking about shutting... There was a call, I guess, someone in Ukraine wants Russia to be cut off from the Internet.
You know, everybody needs to calm down a little bit.
Certainly, I think Russia's invasion is wrong.
They're the aggressors.
But let's try and de-escalate things.
That's why I wanted to leave with this story about the U.S.
cancelling this Minuteman III ICBM test, because I think it's a good gesture so far.
It's just a test.
I don't think it means a whole lot, but, you know, I want to have some good news.
I don't want to just be like the apocalypse.
The world is ending.
So we're going to talk about this.
And then we got something that I think is absolutely fascinating.
Chile has passed an anti-discrimination bill For employment, where you cannot discriminate against someone who has altered their genetic material or have been mutated?
Now that is strange, and I think it'll be interesting to talk about, especially in the context of the Great Reset, the World Economic Forum, and just a lot of what's been going on with these strange international dealings.
Joining us to discuss all of this is Majid Nawaz.
maajid nawaz
Hey, it's Majid.
tim pool
Majid.
So who are you?
unidentified
What are you doing?
maajid nawaz
Good to be here.
I'm here to have a great conversation with all you guys.
I am based in the UK.
For your viewers and listeners, I have a... Up until recently, I used to have a show in the UK on the largest commercial radio group.
That ended Yeah, absolutely.
You were on LBC, right?
I was, yeah.
London Broadcasting?
Leading Britain's Conversation.
stand on my own feet and hopefully broadcast again from the UK. We've just
acquired a studio actually. Looking forward to it. You should come on my show when we're ready.
tim pool
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You were on LBC, right?
maajid nawaz
I was, yeah.
tim pool
London Broadcasting?
maajid nawaz
Leading Britain's Conversation.
tim pool
Oh, I'm way off.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, it started, no, you're right. It started as London's, I think it was London's biggest
conversation back in the old days, but then it very soon went national and then obviously via
online broadcast went global.
And if you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.
I had a weekend show, it was doing quite well, but my views on opposing mandates, COVID mandates I call them, And calling out Klaus Schwab.
Yeah, they led to some difficulties and controversy.
tim pool
That'll be interesting to talk about.
So we'll definitely get into that.
I think that absolutely has a role to play in, it plays a role in the conflict.
You were mentioning something that we'll get into.
That this journalist who is saying World War III has started and calling on Boris Johnson to trigger a no-fly zone.
You said that she was a young global leader for the World Economic Forum.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, I mean, do you want me to... We can pull that up, actually.
tim pool
We'll pull it up.
Just as a preview, I'll mention that.
So we'll get into all that stuff.
maajid nawaz
That was in Poland?
tim pool
Yes, in Warsaw.
It's a crazy, crazy story.
I didn't know that you brought it up.
So this is going to be a fascinating conversation.
So thanks for coming.
We also have Love Doctor.
Is that what you want me to say?
seamus coughlin
I am Seamus Coghlan, as they call me, host of ShimCast IRL.
tim pool
You better introduce me as the Love Doctor.
I'm like, what?
seamus coughlin
We talked about this before.
I'm Love Doctor Coghlan.
People ask advice from me.
You were going to give me a show on your network.
lydia smith
Yeah, that's right.
maajid nawaz
I support it.
seamus coughlin
Tim has a very selective memory.
Yeah, sure.
But I am Seamus Coghlan, Love Doctor Coghlan, host of ShimCast, creator of Freedom Tunes.
I'm wearing a suit because it is Ash Wednesday and I was at Mass.
And as you know, when I wear a suit, I take over the show.
That's true.
So this is ShimCast.
ian crossland
I'm very glad you guys, Seamus and Majid.
You guys, Majid.
Is it Majid or Majid?
maajid nawaz
Both work.
Oh, cool.
Majid is the Urdu pronunciation and Majid is the Arabic pronunciation.
ian crossland
What was the first word?
maajid nawaz
Majid and Majid.
ian crossland
Is the what pronunciation?
The Urdu?
unidentified
Urdu.
Urdu.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, which is the language in Pakistan and Hindi in India is the same language but different script.
ian crossland
Do you have a preference?
maajid nawaz
Uh, Magid works because that's, yeah, in the UK, that's pretty much from school age.
ian crossland
Okay.
I'm glad you're here.
You know, it's Ash Wednesday, like you said, and I'm big on like bringing Islam and Christianity together.
Maybe we'll do that today or at least work towards it.
maajid nawaz
We're going to fix that, man.
seamus coughlin
You think we're going to convert all of them to Christianity?
ian crossland
It's one step at a time, baby.
The journey is the destination.
maajid nawaz
We'll solve that one.
tim pool
It's like 50 years later and there's like some kids in school and they're like, well, the unification happened when Seamus Coghlan and Magid Noir had a conversation.
All truths have been revealed.
lydia smith
Yes, I am also here very excited for, I think this is our first guest from the UK.
Hopefully we're doing more of them.
maajid nawaz
But I've been on before with the Tim Pool show.
tim pool
That was before this show, right?
maajid nawaz
What happened to that show?
tim pool
So that's, I still do it.
I just don't do interviews.
maajid nawaz
How many shows do you have, Ben?
tim pool
Well, I have three YouTube channels.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
And so two of them are very similar.
It's like me monologuing.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
But the YouTube.com slash Timcast is talking at the biggest story of the day or whatever.
And then YouTube.com slash Timcast News is kind of like morning news and then some culture thing.
What did I come with you on?
My original YouTube channel.
maajid nawaz
Right.
tim pool
So I interviewed you on there.
maajid nawaz
Oh gee.
tim pool
And basically what happens is I decided to move interviews to a different format.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
Instead of, because it was like, it didn't work.
If people like listening to just like me straight talking about news.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
Very different from a conversation.
So we kind of split them off.
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
But yeah, yeah.
I interviewed you out and I'm pretty sure it was California.
maajid nawaz
I can't remember.
All I remember is meeting you.
We were in a room somewhere.
You had a little thing recording device.
tim pool
Maybe it was London.
maajid nawaz
I think it was London, man.
I think so.
tim pool
Been there a bunch.
maajid nawaz
It was a while back though.
It was a few years ago.
ian crossland
Is it still online?
tim pool
Oh yeah, yeah.
maajid nawaz
You'll probably find it.
ian crossland
Right on.
tim pool
Yeah, you were talking about the regressive left.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, that was early days, man.
Before that, yeah, before that phrase became popularized.
tim pool
Somebody was like, you gotta talk to Magid.
He coined the term, regressive left.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, you know what?
It was before.
So I had this chat with Sam Harris in this, it eventually became this book that he and I co-authored together, Islam and the Future of Tolerance.
And I used it in that conversation with him and the phrase blew up.
But actually, it had already been used in my autobiography, Radical, which I think was 2012?
I was very upset with the left because they had adopted this kind of relative approach to morality that I found was... Seeds of tyranny.
Yeah, precisely.
tim pool
Well, we'll get into that, too.
So before we get started, head over to TimCast.com, become a member, help support our work.
We're gonna have an absolutely fascinating members-only segment.
So if you go to TimCast.com, you will get access to segments from the TimCast IRL podcast, which go up around 11 p.m.
Monday through Thursday.
We didn't have one yesterday because it was a State of the Union and, you know, Lauren got drunk.
lydia smith
He's great.
maajid nawaz
On air?
tim pool
Yeah.
We were drinking every time Biden did something, you know, like predictable.
lydia smith
She was just drinking the whole time.
tim pool
She was just drinking the whole time.
But it was funny when Biden said we got to secure our borders, she just yells, based, laughing.
Like, I can't believe Biden would say that.
It was fun.
But we went long, and we didn't have a member segment.
We're going to have one tonight.
It's going to be really fascinating, so don't miss it.
As a member, you're helping keep all of our journalists employed, and you're helping us expand the website.
And things have been going pretty well, thanks to all of you who are supporting our work.
So don't forget to also smash the like button, subscribe to this channel, share the show wherever you can, and take the URL, post it on Facebook, Twitter, whatever you can do if you want to help out.
Spread the word.
And then let's get into this first story, which I think is It's small, but I think we got some good news here.
The Wall Street Journal reports U.S.
cancels ICBM test, a test launch amid Ukraine tensions.
The move follows Putin's threat to increase readiness of Russia's nuclear forces.
They say the Biden administration has canceled a routine test launch of an Air Force Minuteman
three missile to avoid escalating nuclear tensions with Russia. US officials said Wednesday,
the Air Force had planned to conduct the test launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base in the
early hours of Thursday, March 3. And Wednesday, however, the administration decided to postpone
the test launch amid tensions with Kremlin over Ukraine. So the news that was coming out is that
the foreign minister in Russia said World War Three will be nuclear.
It will be devastating.
Basically, some have called it a thinly-veiled threat to NATO.
You screw with us, we drop bombs.
Others have said it's kind of just a truth that it will come to nuclear war and that he's not trying to say, you know, we'll blow you up.
But I see this as maybe not the most important or impactful thing in the world, but I think it shows the U.S.
is not willing to push to bring us to that conflict, if even for just something as small as a routine test.
maajid nawaz
Rightly so.
tim pool
But what do you think?
Do you think there's a real prospect for escalation outside of Ukraine?
maajid nawaz
Well, there is a danger of escalation if you look to What some of the politicians are pushing there.
You look at some of the voices and how they've been talking about this war and it's worrying.
I don't think it's going to happen, but I do worry about some of these voices.
It's interesting if you notice a pattern, right?
The same voices that wanted to impose COVID mandates on everybody else to protect themselves are the same voices that would want to send our sons and relatives to war to protect themselves.
tim pool
Yep.
Well, I tell you, I got some applications for the Army for everybody who's in favor of U.S.
intervention.
By all means, sign on up and head on over.
maajid nawaz
And they won't.
tim pool
Of course.
maajid nawaz
They'd rather we go.
They don't want to go.
They'd rather we go and serve their aims and their purposes.
tim pool
Worse still, I think they'd rather your children go.
seamus coughlin
Exactly.
tim pool
Horrifying.
And that's how it's always been, though.
maajid nawaz
You're still fighting age, though, Tim.
unidentified
Me?
I'm 35.
tim pool
I'm going to be 36 in seven days.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, you're still fighting age.
tim pool
I suppose.
seamus coughlin
Don't say it.
He's gonna start walking around with a cane.
tim pool
And I will brag, my resting heart rate, 48.
seamus coughlin
Alright, well you just got drafted, buddy.
Good job.
My goodness.
tim pool
I've been, I got this health app and I've been, you know, blood pressure has improved dramatically.
I fixed my diet, I've been exercising.
seamus coughlin
You're a super soldier, is what you're saying.
Tim's like, I don't want to fight in the war, but I would be the best soldier.
tim pool
I'd win it by myself.
I feel like it's a great accomplishment for myself to be getting healthy.
I feel like everybody should do that.
unidentified
Absolutely.
maajid nawaz
I'm just going to brag about it.
seamus coughlin
Well, if the military's watching, I'm just in horrible shape.
tim pool
Seamus's feet are so flat.
seamus coughlin
The flattest feet ever.
Yeah, exactly.
maajid nawaz
I'm going to say that's good news.
I'm happy they're doing this, because it is good to de-escalate.
But some of the rhetoric, I mean, we had the mayor of London.
Talk about, look, you know, if there is a nuclear attack on London, we're ready.
That kind of rhetoric is just unnecessary, I think, considering what's going on.
And what's going on is worrying.
I mean, look, Putin invaded a country, right?
Nobody can countenance or condone the invasion of any country.
I just find it strange that the voices that, some of the voices that, till this day, don't accept it was wrong to invade Iraq or Afghanistan, are now condemning Putin's invasion of a foreign country.
ian crossland
I seem to think of it as we're invading Iraq right now.
It's a constant invasion.
maajid nawaz
Well, we're still there.
ian crossland
We're occupation.
We are occupying and invading that country on a daily basis by being there.
It's not like it happened in the past.
It's happening right now.
maajid nawaz
The thing is, what I find amazing with this, and I think it's really interesting that we're, I believe we're in, George Orwell in 1984 split the world up.
into four different blocks, right?
Oceana, which was Landing Strip 1, which is the UK, and then America and its sphere of influence, which includes what we call the Five Eyes, so Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the Anglo-Saxon sphere.
The other block that Orwell used in 1984 was East Asia, and that just considered China in that area.
And then he had Eurasia, right?
Eurasia was Russia and Europe.
And then there was the disputed territory, which, if you think about today, it's very accurate.
It was the Muslim-majority lands that are the subject of the whims of the other three and still disputed, right?
So if you look at how Orwell divided the world, it's so curious to me today that when you look at these blocks emerging and you look at the current conflict, you can see a Eurasia, the Russian sphere of influence, emerging.
You can see post-Brexit Oceania emerging, which is the Anglo-Saxon world.
And you can see China already there with East Asia, and you can see that they are all fighting over the resources in the Middle East.
It's very curious to see how accurate Orwell's vision of the world was.
ian crossland
I wonder if it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, like Jules Verne would draw the submarine in 1820 or whenever, well before they ever created them.
And then, you know, art becomes a reality.
seamus coughlin
You had very primitive submarines prior to that, actually.
Yeah, very primitive ones.
In fact, there were plans for submarines drawn up as early as like the late 1500s.
Oh, interesting.
ian crossland
Da Vinci, for instance, would pen helicopters.
He would draw those well before they were ever invented.
I wonder if Orwell created a fantasy realm that is now being created.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, he got the date wrong.
unidentified
1984.
maajid nawaz
We're in 2022.
However, I do think it was more than a coincidence.
The man served in wars abroad.
He kind of had quite a strong grip on world affairs.
tim pool
But he was a man looking through a keyhole.
Yeah.
Trying to see the entirety of a ballroom.
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
And so if you look at Brave New World, I think we're seeing elements of that.
maajid nawaz
Absolutely.
tim pool
Fahrenheit 451.
Yeah.
Prophetic.
unidentified
Indeed.
tim pool
And a V for Vendetta, even.
I mean, there's this... Great film.
Yeah.
Oh, graphic novel.
maajid nawaz
And graphic novel.
tim pool
Yeah, that's right.
So, graphic novel is very, very different.
I've not read it, but it was very different.
maajid nawaz
Where I was going with this, though, is that we are unaware of how we are perceived in Oceania.
I'm going to use that phrase to refer to the Anglo-Saxon world today, just to continue with Orwell's kind of point there.
We're unaware how we're perceived.
So when we condemn, and we should condemn, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, what we don't realize is that the vast majority of the rest of the world, the vast majority of humanity, are laughing at us because we're still in Iraq.
ian crossland
We brought up earlier how valuable it is to know what the world was like before the internet.
If you know what the world was like before the invasion of Iraq, you know that it's not normal.
And it's the bastardization of truth and justice and honesty and leadership.
maajid nawaz
And we've completely lost any moral high ground to talk about this.
And that's part of the problem that, you know, the media is whipping up such a frenzy over this.
And then I remember just two years ago, I went on a five day hunger strike because of the Uyghur genocide in China.
I remember that. And the purpose was to get a hundred thousand signatures on a
petition because there's a parliamentary petition. If you get a hundred thousand signatures on that petition, you
force a debate in parliament.
Now we got that 100,000 within five days and then it went to parliament and
then they voted unanimously on the fact that there was a genocide in China, but it was
only a symbolic vote, which is why it got through.
It would not have got through if it wasn't a symbolic vote.
So you got these talking heads like the mayor of London and others like certain politicians, war hawks, who are talking about the need to impose a no-fly zone.
Over Ukraine, which would mean that we shoot down Russian jets, which is an act of war, right?
So these idiots don't realise that you end up declaring war on Russia if you do that.
Those same voices were not only quiet about the genocide in China, the Uighur genocide, but resisted any effort to hold China accountable for it.
seamus coughlin
Yeah, exactly.
Well, we had the Olympics there, and we still sent our athletes over.
And what were you mentioning earlier, Tim, with the Russians, that we were pulling their athletes, or can you refresh my memory?
tim pool
Yeah, so several organizations have banned Russian and Belarusian athletes from competing, like Ironman did it, and there's a couple others.
Triathlon.
ian crossland
The spirit of the Olympics is that even if you're at war, you send your best athletes, you let them pass through your territory unhindered, and then they all compete, because it's the spirit of human competition.
It's beyond warfare.
maajid nawaz
I just find it so out of touch.
And then there are these calls... Look, again, I'm going to have to re-emphasise every time I say something on this topic, but again, Putin should not have gone into Ukraine.
But he's not hitler and there are these people saying he's the new hitler when you've got an active genocide going on
in china And the worst part of this is when you talk about hitler
and nazism in ukraine in 2014 There was a change of regime that we in the west encouraged
the maidan Uprising that putin would call a coup now, whatever word
you want to use there was regime change that we We meaning our intelligence agencies
Backed with full throttle wholeheartedly. We backed that regime change because the government in ukraine was pro-russia
It pulled out of the affiliation with the EU and we didn't like that.
We wanted it to be pro-West.
So we backed that regime change.
Who do we bring to power?
Nazis, actual Nazis.
tim pool
You think Zelensky or?
maajid nawaz
No, no, he's not a Nazi, he's Jewish.
But you've got this thing called the Azov Brigade.
tim pool
Yeah, yeah, the battalion, right?
maajid nawaz
Azov Battalion.
They are an armed Nazi battalion.
Now, the word Nazi, the problem is it's been so overused today
that nobody really believes the word Nazi or racist when it actually deserves to be used.
But let's just be very clear.
These guys have, uh, they are swastika raising actual neo-Nazis.
And I mean that in the literal sense of the word.
And even the word literal is no longer literally.
seamus coughlin
It's literally been changed.
It means something else.
tim pool
We talked about those with Lauren Southern as well.
maajid nawaz
It is unbelievable, right?
And they are formally incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard.
We funded them, by the way.
When I say we funded them, actually sent them money.
We trained them, we funded them.
Canada, the US and the UK were involved in backing this battalion.
And then they were incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard.
And then once Putin attacked, The Ukrainian National Guard from their official and formal and verified Twitter account posted a video bragging that this was an Azov fighter dipping bullets in pig's lard saying that he was going to go and find the Muslims.
tim pool
It's like that urban legend, that apocryphal story.
Are you familiar?
There's an American general in the Middle East, killed a bunch of Islamic soldiers, but kept one alive and put pig's blood on the corpses and said, go tell everyone what we did.
But I believe that story is not true.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, I don't think, but this one is a video that's been posted.
No, right, right, right.
tim pool
I'm saying he probably saw that meme story on the internet.
maajid nawaz
Maybe, but the thing is, let's put aside the emotional reaction that some people may have to that video, right, and consider it strategically.
The mistake historically that Chamberlain made was to appease Nazism in Europe in the belief that they could be of use to defeat the Soviet Union.
So, we know how that ended.
What you've got at the moment is you've got a Nazi battalion as formally incorporated into the Ukrainian army, in their military, and neo-Nazis from around the world are now travelling there to train with them.
They are armed and they are part of the Ukrainian armed forces.
My question is, if they win, or if Ukraine is split to East and West and you've got the river in the middle, if Putin takes, from the upper river, if Putin takes Eastern Ukraine, And the Ukrainian regime that's there currently keeps the western part.
The Nazis that are serving in their National Guard, in their army, who are pretty much the most powerful faction in terms of grassroots mobilization.
I mean, guys, there are videos of children's summer camps in Ukraine making Nazi sleuths.
There's Nazi summer camps.
They've had mass rallies.
These are actual proper organized Nazis with swastikas, with insignia and everything.
Now imagine in whichever part they end up maintaining, they are now the government.
So you've got an actual Nazi government that we funded and backed.
tim pool
Sounds a lot like ISIS.
ian crossland
Yeah, sounds like an easy target.
maajid nawaz
And why, how did Al-Qaeda get created?
The CIA were funding what they... The Mujahideen.
That's right, right?
To defeat the Soviets.
Now, if it's not okay to... They don't learn, do they?
seamus coughlin
No, it's the same thing over and over again.
ian crossland
It's intentional.
tim pool
They did learn, and they... No, here's the thing.
seamus coughlin
They do study history.
It's just that World War II is the only thing that ever happened in all of history, so anytime anything happens, we...
We have to say, that guy is Hitler.
And so like you said, pointing to Putin and going, that guy's Hitler.
I mean, I don't know.
He's a tyrannical leader over Russia and now he's imposing himself on Ukrainians.
Is there anyone in history who that just sounds like a little bit more like besides Hitler?
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
I mean, he's an illiberal autocrat is the word to describe.
ian crossland
Illiberal?
maajid nawaz
Illiberal autocrat, right?
He's a dictator who's not, he's not really keen on elections, but he's not Hitler.
There's actual Nazis we're funding and backing.
ian crossland
This sounds like the overthrow of the Shah in Iran when we put the Ayatollah in power.
And it was like a radical, well, from what I've learned, and maybe you can enlighten me, a radical Islamic regime in power because we wanted it to fight and destabilize the region.
But then it ended up destabilizing the whole world from my perspective.
tim pool
More modern, it's Syria.
That was 79, yeah.
maajid nawaz
It's the same M.O.
And some people say, look, your country's been invaded.
Everyone should fight.
We don't care if they're Nazis.
And my point is, look, every country has racists and every country has Nazis and every country has jihadist extremists.
But if you organize them into a formal battalion, that's the equivalent.
So the analogy is false there with saying every country has racists.
The equivalent analogy is the U.S.
armed forces having a formal KKK battalion with KKK flags as part of the army.
That's the analogy, right?
It's shocking.
If the U.S.
did that, if the U.K.
did that, people would be up in arms.
But we're funding it in Ukraine.
tim pool
And how come many of these woke YouTubers and personalities who have no problem, in fact, monetize attacking Nazis are now very much in favor?
Of our support of these groups in Ukraine.
maajid nawaz
Right, so, listen, like, promoting a white man at work is deemed racist, but literally funding an actual Nazi armed battalion is fine.
tim pool
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, so they say.
I'm not a fan of that ideology.
maajid nawaz
Well, if they're going to say that, then I'm going to hold them to their word and say, so why is it wrong to fund ISIS in Syria and go and join them?
We've got, we've got UK media calling for British citizen volunteers to go and join the Foreign Legion in Ukraine and join these people.
So hang on a minute.
So when young Muslim men went to join ISIS in Syria, that's terrorism, but you can go and join a Nazi brigade in Ukraine.
tim pool
It's because public perception.
Look, ISIS somehow managed to get, I think the famous image was like a Detroit plumbing company pickup truck in Syria or whatever.
And everyone's like, how did they get this?
How were these weapons being given to many of these rebel groups ultimately then becoming ISIS?
And it's because, I think it's fair to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, if the US wants to destabilize a region, they provide material support to insurgent groups or extremist groups who then create problems.
maajid nawaz
Well, and so then that begs the question, what's going on in Ukraine, really?
Like, why have we been funding armed Nazi battalions who have now been incorporated into the Ukrainian regime?
What's going on?
tim pool
I feel like it wouldn't be out of the question.
And far be it from me, I'm not an expert.
I think it's possible the country splits in half.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
So I spent some time during my Dan.
I went to Ukraine and I got to meet people and talk to them.
Everybody down there was pro-EU.
They said getting access to the Schengen zone, getting access to the European Union means a better economy.
And Russia wants them to join the Trade Federation, which is similar, but much weaker and smaller, and it was a bad deal for Ukrainians.
Not to mention, a lot of people I talked to said, honestly, we're scared of what Russia would do if they're given power over us because we saw what happened last time they had power over us.
Holodomor.
So many of these people, especially in Kiev, were very much like, rather be with Europe.
Sorry.
It seems like the U.S.
has been using influence tactics, bribery, manipulation, like we saw with Joe Biden.
If you don't fire the prosecutor, you don't get the billion dollar guaranteed loans, which is criminal, and he admitted to it.
It was influence tactics.
But the bribes, the cash, the money, it works.
Putin didn't have that.
Apparently they didn't care enough.
But like you mentioned, the regime changed in 2014.
The President Yanukovych was effectively ousted, fled the country, went to Russia.
The new government comes in, very pro-West.
So Russia loses because of that protest.
And now it seems his only option, it seems to be a last resort physical invasion.
maajid nawaz
Well, why was that so important to him after he lost is really interesting.
Most of Germany's gas comes through Ukraine, yeah?
And that's why he was building Nord Stream 2 to go through the Black Sea to bypass, because if you think about it... Baltic?
Sorry, the Baltic Sea, yeah.
If you think about it, he had the access through Ukraine, he loses that, and so he tries to build Nord Stream 2 to go straight to Germany.
That gets thwarted.
Now he's got a problem.
tim pool
By Trump.
maajid nawaz
Exactly.
Right?
Interesting, right?
seamus coughlin
Right.
maajid nawaz
Now he's got a problem.
He's lost the gas going through Ukraine because the regime's changed.
He can't build it through the sea.
But he's the second largest oil producer in the world.
Now, if you want to understand, if Americans want to understand how that feels, when Ukraine was lost, As in Putin lost Ukraine, it went into the American sphere of influence.
You end up with calls for it to join NATO.
And from 1997, the expansion of NATO eastwards has incorporated most of those countries.
But Ukraine is right on the border with Russia.
So if you go back to the Cuban Missile Crisis, and you remember what it felt like for Kennedy to have those missiles pointed at America from Cuba, just 100 or so miles away.
Putin's got to a point where he's saying, you're building bases on my border, you're asking for NATO membership, and this is my backyard, why could Ukraine not have stayed neutral?
That's the geopolitical conflict that's going on at the moment.
tim pool
I think that's part of it, but Latvia and Estonia are NATO members, and they're on the border with Russia as well.
ian crossland
According to Scott Horton, who was just on Kennedy Nation, he was saying that it was Condoleezza Rice that got them into NATO and put long-range Tomahawk missile nuclear rockets.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, but they didn't have the gas going through them.
tim pool
Exactly.
So, you know, one of the things I've been saying is there's the belief that a lot of people have a lot of people believe the conspiracy theory Vladimir Putin is fighting Klaus Schwab and the World Economic Forum and the New World Order.
You had that that Ukrainian member of parliament who said that we are fighting for a new world order.
And so there are people who believe that there's this great global battle and Putin is defying it.
And I'm like, Putin just wants to make sure he's getting the proper resources in exchange for the oil he produces so that he can fund his country.
ian crossland
I wonder, do you think he has some sort of issue with the World Economic Forum?
maajid nawaz
Well, he was on their website.
He was a member.
So I don't know if that holds up because he was a member himself and they've just taken his profile off the website.
ian crossland
Oh wow.
When Switzerland... They just removed him.
Switzerland is no longer neutral.
They finally declared non-neutrality in a war for the first time I've ever seen.
And that's where the Bank of International Settlements is, which is the central bank of central banks.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, well, what I can say is that when you cancel Russia from SWIFT and Visa and Mastercard, what you are doing is precipitating the need for Russia to develop its own financial system.
Now, when you kick Russia out of that, That could lead to a run on Russian banks, and if there's a run on Russian banks, if Germany as it is is dependent on Russian gas, that will have a knock-on effect on Germany's economy, and you could end up with Weimar-style hyperinflation.
That could lead to a... In Russia?
But not just Russia, outside of Russia, because Germany relies on Russian gas.
So energy prices spike, we're already seeing that.
Four bucks for gas out here.
So the huge spike in energy prices has a knock-on effect to the point where stagflation really pretty much ends up destroying the currency.
So it could end up being used regardless of whether it's planned or not.
I tend not to go into intentions.
I just look at reality and describe it and say this is what's happening.
So you could end up with a scenario where, because of stagflation, the dollar as a global reserve currency comes under intense pressure.
And it's that moment that is used as an opportunity to switch over to central banking digital currencies.
tim pool
Well, so let me ask you, what is the relevance of Vladimir Putin being kicked out of, removed from the World Economic Forum website?
I mean, we're talking about financial currencies, we're talking about the World Economic Forum.
It feels like I've got a bunch of points that seem like they're connected.
The World Economic Forum, the International Monetary Fund, the SWIFT payment system, Russia being, you know, starting a war, then being booted.
What's the connection here?
I mean, was Russia involved in the liberal economic order?
Is he not involved in that?
maajid nawaz
I don't think Putin is, but I think that this will be an opportunity for the introduction of, it potentially could be, I should say, for the introduction of central banking digital currencies, which I describe as vouchers.
tim pool
But it sounds like what Putin is doing is going to help make that a reality.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
So it sounds like... That makes it sound like it's one big plot.
maajid nawaz
Well, you don't need to... See, this is the thing.
We don't need to worry about intentions just to understand what the consequences of these actions are.
tim pool
Yeah, agreed.
maajid nawaz
And that's where people get stuck.
They get stuck on intentions.
And I'm like, well...
It doesn't matter what Putin intended, if the consequences of kicking Russia out of the SWIFT system mean that you end up with this financial money supply division on the planet, you then have got these blocks, Eurasia and Oceania.
And what that leads to is, if you can no longer trade with Russian banks, when you're buying Russian gas in your Germany, and you can no longer buy from Russia because you can't pay them, Bitcoin.
And already we see Bitcoin flooding into Ukraine to fund the opposition, right?
Now, how do you control that?
Because one thing we do know is Bitcoin isn't in the interests of the banking establishment.
Or is it?
Well, you tell me.
I think what they would want to do is introduce central banking digital currencies.
That's what they've told us they want.
tim pool
I think there's a good possibility.
When you look at the prominence of Bitcoin over the past 10 years, it would not be hard for a nation to gain enough control over the network to create faux centralization.
A lot of people say, oh, that can't happen.
I don't believe it.
But what's the current market cap for Bitcoin?
Do you know?
Is it $1 trillion?
ian crossland
My guess is $2.1 trillion.
Let's find out.
No, it's gonna be less than that.
$1.9 trillion.
maajid nawaz
You could have market manipulation, right?
ian crossland
Yep.
maajid nawaz
You can manipulate the market there.
tim pool
We absolutely do.
ian crossland
China's been doing it like crazy.
It's $1.93 trillion.
tim pool
$1.93 trillion.
ian crossland
No, that's the global market cap of all crypto right now.
tim pool
Of all crypto?
ian crossland
The Bitcoin market cap is $832 billion.
tim pool
$832 billion.
So let's go back seven years.
The market cap of crypto was substantially less.
The U.S., NATO countries could have easily bought in and controlled more than 51% of the Bitcoin network, which would give them control over how it works, effectively.
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
I'm trying to simplify it.
The point is, It just requires immense managerial power, but from the early stages, we could see the true power of Bitcoin.
I've long speculated and even told all of my crazy anarchists and libertarian friends, I'm like, what if, you know, you're buying into Bitcoin?
What if that's the global currency?
It's public ledger.
Anyone can track.
The AI systems, their computers, they'll figure out what your address is in seconds.
And there's nothing you can do to stop them.
You know, I got to tell you, man, I have seen brilliant private investigatorial work from individuals.
There's an individual who has doxed in the UK.
He was posting on social media.
How did they find out who he was?
They knew the sound of his voice.
So they looked at the average, they took a bunch of his posts and found the average time of posting and they said, this shows the individual is in this region of the UK.
They then looked for a person who fit key details, background, age, interests, hobbies.
A human being did all of that work.
Imagine what a computer can do when you're doing transactions.
They'll instantly know what part of the world you're in.
From there, they break it down.
They know what you're buying because they know what everyone else is buying.
The Bitcoin ledger is publicly trackable.
And when they talk about Zcash and Monero, which are two cryptos which are supposedly secure, we learned that the FBI was able to track Monero payments when they arrested that woman, the Crocodile of Wall Street lady.
I think there's, I'm not saying, I'm a big fan of Bitcoin.
maajid nawaz
So you're talking about the privacy concerns on the ledger, but what you still can't do is control the supply.
I mean, you can manipulate the price.
tim pool
You can control the supply.
maajid nawaz
Of Bitcoin.
tim pool
It's called a 51% attack.
maajid nawaz
If you control more than... No, I mean the overall amount of Bitcoin in the world.
Once it's hit its maximum cap, right?
You can't just print more Bitcoin once that's done.
tim pool
Right, right, right.
maajid nawaz
Bitcoin... Unlike fiat currency.
tim pool
But with a 51% attack, you can effectively do anything you want.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
So if you control more than half of the nodes, then you basically tell the fork what to do.
Now, of course, if you go too hard, you'll create a hard fork and it'll split the blockchain in half.
We've seen that happen on accident before.
What I'm saying is, I don't know if it's true.
A lot of people say, no, Tim, calm down, this can never happen.
But if the US and Western powers or even China and Russia bought in very very early on and
have maintained growth of their of their bitcoin nodes they could absolutely control more
than half the network which gives them control of the entirety of the system. So I think what
maajid nawaz
you're describing is the compared to what can be done with fiat money in a in a
sovereign nation is probably a less worse case scenario than what we currently have with the
control of the money supply.
ian crossland
Bitcoin's great.
It's horrible what's going on right now.
They can print 800 billion of fiat and then just buy all the Bitcoin.
tim pool
Now there's also concerns about quantum computing being able to crack private keys, in which case the system is just a facade.
maajid nawaz
That, though, could be met.
So when we reach quantum power in that way, and it's sustainable, I think you also end up with quantum encryption that can actually... So the technology improves in its encryption capabilities, not just in its hacking capabilities.
tim pool
Exactly.
ian crossland
Quantum resistance.
tim pool
Right, yeah.
So the Bitcoin community, All the people involved could choose to hard fork on purpose with new resilience and new technology.
I will say this.
It is my personal opinion that Bitcoin will become a dominant global standard for exchange and store of value in some meaningful way.
I've long thought that was the case, and that's why I've said, how do you know this is not the global currency?
That's something they want.
But I'll put it very simply.
I've long said I believe one Bitcoin will become worth a million dollars, equivalent buying power.
I believe we're on track for that.
I don't know exactly when or how, but I do believe that, and I've certainly bought my share of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies because I truly believe it.
I'm not telling anybody what to do, I'm just saying what I've done.
I believe there comes a time, we're watching what's happening in Russia, every incentive is being given to them to back their financial markets using Bitcoin as the facilitation mechanism.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, that's the consequence of what's happening.
ian crossland
Or a central bank token, which is worse than, well, it's different than a crypto because it's not on a blockchain.
It's just a central bank.
They have it on a ledger, but it's a digital currency that they can track.
It's less secure.
maajid nawaz
That's a disaster.
ian crossland
I know.
maajid nawaz
Because I could tell you from there, this is what I'm worried about, because I could say, right, You're not going to buy meat this week.
You've had your quota.
Which you can't, even if you can manipulate the Bitcoin price, if you control 51%, what you can't do is say, right, you can't use the tiny bit of Bitcoin that you own to buy that meat.
You have to buy bugs.
tim pool
It depends on if they can gain control of the exchanges, which they mostly can.
So if people are, I'll put it this way, they can ban your address from sending or receiving through certain exchanges.
So they can say all of our financial institutions and mechanism, the companies that facilitate the exchange, we won't allow it.
The blockchain still exists, which means you could easily find someone who just says, I'll do a direct address transfer outside of an exchange.
ian crossland
They could do something like a centrally controlled economy could do something where if you have crypto, you have to buy NFTs as vouchers, and then you use those NFTs for specific things.
So you can only use those NFTs for food, for liquor, for cars.
tim pool
The currency would need to be fungible, but they can control the system.
It doesn't need to be, you know, unique tokens specifically, right?
maajid nawaz
I think this is the, so we've got the Chancellor of Exchequer in the UK, Rishi Sunak, openly declaring this, that as the leader of the G7 they're going to introduce central banking digital currencies, right?
And this is what I'm calling as vouchers.
And so fiat money pretty much at some stage is going to come to an end.
And what you've described as the potential dangers and pitfalls of Bitcoin specifically or crypto generally, I still think is a least worst case scenario when you can consider what can happen with CBDC.
unidentified
I agree.
tim pool
I just want to say real quick, I'm sort of playing devil's advocate on the potential risks of Bitcoin.
I genuinely think it's better.
I think it's fantastic.
And I think it's going to become a million dollars per Bitcoin.
ian crossland
It's good that you're doing it because it's like, don't let a crisis go to waste.
And what's happening is the bankers are looking at Bitcoin as a crisis, and they're trying to make sure that they can turn it into an opportunity.
Just like Joe Biden encouraged us to do last night in his campaign speech.
They called it a State of the Union, but it was just a campaign speech.
At the very end he was like, and what, by the way, the State of the Union?
The State of the Union is strong.
The State of the Union is strong because the people are strong.
Strong, strong, strong!
And everyone's like, yeah!
seamus coughlin
We're strong!
And we're going to end cancer.
tim pool
You see that joke where at the end he says, go get them!
And everyone's like, what?
Like, what does that mean?
maajid nawaz
Yeah, who?
tim pool
Who?
Who's that?
seamus coughlin
He's inciting an insurrection.
maajid nawaz
That's during the standing ovation, wasn't it?
tim pool
Yeah, and then someone I think from the Daily Wire said, that was just a part of the prompter that Biden wasn't supposed to read.
It was instructions to his handlers.
Go get him.
seamus coughlin
That's hilarious.
ian crossland
We were debating if he said, when he was saying the Ukrainian people, at one point he said the Uranian people.
He said Iranian.
The closest real word to the sound he made is Iranian, but it sounded like Uranian, so I was making fun of him like he was talking about Uranus.
tim pool
I think Uranus.
ian crossland
That's how I say it.
tim pool
He said Iranian.
maajid nawaz
Russia will never get the hearts and minds of the Iranian people.
Never say never.
ian crossland
But here's the important point here.
tim pool
Why do we believe he meant to say Ukrainian?
Who is the person who gets to decide what Joe Biden really meant?
If Joe Biden, so he was meeting with the G7 and he said, you know, we got, you know, troops in Libya, we're going to be sending military.
He meant Syria.
Won't happen.
Won't happen.
If Joe Biden's in, you know, a Situation Room meeting and he's like, uh, we gotta send these weapons to the Iranian people!
And then someone was like, Mr. President, are you sure?
Yeah, we're gonna send 30 billion dollars, some fighter jets, to the Iranian people!
And they'll go...
Whatever you say, sir, I'll make it happen.
And then breaking news, Iran receives massive payload of cash from U.S.
government.
ian crossland
Dude, it's not even a joke.
tim pool
But hold on.
Imagine the alternative.
Joe Biden says, we're going to send a pallet of cash to the Ukrainian people.
And someone goes, he meant Iranian people.
maajid nawaz
And then they decide for themselves.
ian crossland
Exactly.
When it's hitting the fan and it's wartime, make a decision now.
And he says the wrong word.
That's death.
maajid nawaz
But that's why it's so dangerous to have a president that effectively is mentally impaired.
seamus coughlin
No, and he actually, no, we were talking about this.
That's the most polite way I've ever heard somebody describe it.
It's a very polite way of putting it, and we were sort of joking about this the other day.
We were watching his State of the Union, poking fun at him.
It is actually genuinely sad, the fact that we were all talking about this after the show.
This is probably the best speech he's given in his entire presidency, and he's slurring every single word.
He sounds intoxicated.
Yeah.
And that's as good as it gets.
maajid nawaz
I mean, I remember when Trump would give speeches and make such mistakes, there would be viral videos.
seamus coughlin
Exactly.
And they were never even close to as bad as Biden's mistakes.
Like Biden's best, and I'm not saying Trump didn't have some gaffes, but like Biden's best day is what we saw yesterday.
And he sounded drunk.
He really did.
I'm not trying to be mean.
And if anyone's going to come at me and say that that's really insensitive to say about the president of the United States, you are acknowledging that he did sound like that.
maajid nawaz
Oh, that's a good point.
ian crossland
Realistically now, I want to just touch back on Ukraine really quick.
So you think that he's going to try and... I think I've been thinking almost every day he's going to split the country in half on that river, that reservoir.
Do you know what the name of the river is?
I can't figure it out.
maajid nawaz
It's referred to as the Upper River, but who knows?
But there's the East and the West, right?
So the side that's on the Russian side, That's the east of that river.
We'll probably go to, look, I say probably, let's hope there's no World War Three, right?
So if, look, ultimately Putin's gone in there now and he's not just going to leave that, right?
He's gone in there for a reason, for whatever reason.
So probably this is the outcome that it will end on, which is that you'd end up with a split Ukraine.
ian crossland
And Kiev, like the Kievan Rus.
I think that was the history of the Russians, was Kievan Rus.
maajid nawaz
And it's in his backyard, right?
So, you know, Bay of Pigs.
I mean, America's done all of this stuff.
Iran-Contra affair, you know?
ian crossland
I know.
I want to speak out against it, but like, to sit in silence while my brethren are conquering and kicking doors in in Iraq.
I don't know if they're still doing that, but they were.
tim pool
If our president is, as you described it, mentally impaired.
lydia smith
Indeed, yes.
tim pool
Can't speak straight.
How is he going to prevent Russia from doing whatever it is Russia intends to do?
Is it because someone else is in charge?
maajid nawaz
But he's not going to.
What has he done?
tim pool
Well, they cancelled this ICBM test, which is in some ways good.
maajid nawaz
But that's not preventing Russia.
That's just not escalating a conflict.
Which is good, by the way.
I'm happy.
But no one's going to stop what Putin's decided to do unless you want war with Putin.
And this is the problem.
You've got an option right now.
Putin went in and called everybody's bluff.
Now, either we engage directly with Russia and that's World War Three, which I don't
think is a good idea, in particular because we don't have the moral high ground.
You know, our own countries have gone and invaded countries.
And when we went into Iraq and Afghanistan, the last thing we expected was for Russia
to attack us directly because we invaded Iraq or Afghanistan.
tim pool
You know what narrative I really love?
Yeah.
There's a story coming out where it said Vladimir Putin believed the invasion would last only
15 days and the government would collapse and they would come in and it would be clean.
And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we thought we'd be greeted as liberators.
The same same narrative.
maajid nawaz
This is it.
It's just people are very very out of touch and they they I find it amazing how um there is now almost it's expected that we take a line on this that is uh this word jingoism right it's a very jingoistic line that we're expected to take almost as if we must back direct action against Russia.
So that question on your point, that question that the journalist put to Boris Johnson
when he was in Poland, I say journalist,
it was somebody purporting to be a journalist who stood up.
tim pool
Well, let's get into this.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, should I put it up?
tim pool
So I have this here from the week.
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
Take a look at this story.
Ukrainian journalist confronts Boris Johnson.
NATO is afraid of World War III, but it has already started.
This was a Ukrainian journalist, Daria Kaleniuk, who had fled Ukraine and was calling on the UK to enforce a no-fly zone.
As soon as you announce a no-fly zone, you're declaring war.
You are literally declaring war.
maajid nawaz
Why though?
seamus coughlin
Because you shoot down a plane.
maajid nawaz
You're shooting down Russian jets.
tim pool
But it's a declaration of war because you are saying to the other country, we're going to shoot you.
ian crossland
It's a figurative declaration of war.
We've got to get away from misusing the word literal.
Well, only Congress can declare war literally.
tim pool
No, no, no, no, no.
seamus coughlin
Legally.
tim pool
You're talking about legal.
ian crossland
I'm talking about literal.
tim pool
I'm talking about a literal declaration of war, not a legal one.
maajid nawaz
Unless you don't enforce the no-fly zone.
If you're enforcing a no-fly zone, you have to shoot Russian jets down in Ukrainian airspace.
The minute you do that, it's an act of war.
It's an act of war.
tim pool
But to put it this way, it would be like me saying, Seamus, If you take one step, you know, in that direction, I'm going to, you know, will hit you or push you or something.
I have declared my intent to attack him.
That's, that's, that's, that's not legal.
seamus coughlin
Yeah.
And you, right.
ian crossland
A declaration of war is a specific thing.
seamus coughlin
No, no, no, no.
tim pool
In the United States, in the United States, there are certain statute, statutes about declaration of war.
Completely irrelevant to actual war.
People come out here and they talk about war crimes and all of this stuff, and I'm like, these are like rules put in place by European councils and conventions to be like, dare I say, we shouldn't use this kind of weapon.
Okay, that would be a crime.
You want to talk about real war?
Declaring war is me saying, I am going to shoot you if you do this.
ian crossland
No, we did that in Vietnam.
It wasn't war though.
It wasn't an official war.
It was just the military action.
It was conflict and combat, but it wasn't technically a war.
tim pool
You guys, look it up!
seamus coughlin
I'm not lying about this stuff.
tim pool
You don't understand.
You're talking about an American legal precedent.
I'm not.
I'm talking about literal reality.
That if you are a country of any type, regardless of your laws, and you say, I intend to shoot you out of the sky, you have declared war against them.
ian crossland
I think war is a specific term that's used in times of specific types of conflict.
Combat, destruction, and conflict doesn't have to be a war.
maajid nawaz
But can you see what he's saying?
That if you shot Russian jets down, for example, and then Russia shot your jets down in response, and then you started nuking each other, even if Congress didn't declare war, you're in, I was going to swear, You're in war!
You're in war, right?
ian crossland
The soldiers would call it that and they'd say war is hell.
But the legality is Congress is the only people they're supposed to be able to declare war on.
tim pool
No, no, stop.
We're not talking about the United States.
The US has nothing to do with this.
Stop thinking about the US.
If the UK says to Russia, we intend to shoot you out of the sky, they have declared war against them.
I don't know about any legal parliamentary statutes.
It's irrelevant.
If my neighbor is next to me and I tell him, if you put a drone in the sky, you know, I'll throw a water balloon at it.
I have declared my intent to take action against him should he do something I don't like.
maajid nawaz
Now that's what the, I'm going to say journalist advisedly, this lady, Daria Kulinec, that you've referenced up there, she called on Boris Johnson when he was in Poland, the UK Prime Minister, to declare a no-fly zone over Ukraine, which would mean we would declare to Russia, we're going to shoot you down if you fly over Ukraine, right?
Which is an act of war.
Now it turns out that this person who called themselves a journalist, who stood up in this press conference, Is actually a member of the World Economic Forum.
This is their profile on the WEF website.
If you look up their name and WEF you can see it on your screen there.
There they are.
And actually the bio does not state journalist.
It doesn't state journalists, it states Daria is co-founder and executive director of the Anti-Corruption Action Center, a powerful national organization that has shaped Ukraine's anti-corruption legislation and efforts.
By the way, anti-corruption became an agenda because of course the Biden-affiliated, Biden-aligned, America-friendly regime there was accused of corruption, so they set up an anti-corruption unit to investigate themselves.
This was it.
Now, this person's called themselves a journalist and stood up.
Calling for Boris Johnson to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine.
tim pool
To declare war.
maajid nawaz
Declaration of war.
It's very interesting to me that they are a member of the World Economic Forum.
tim pool
Yeah, I have strong opinions on Ukraine and what Joe Biden did.
And Hunter.
And Hunter.
And it's all one big happy family tree, son, as they all collude to engage in a tree zone.
But, hmm, charity call.
ian crossland
Yeah, the World Economic Forum has plainly stated that they don't think nationalist governments are capable of governing the world in its current form, but we need some sort of hybrid corporate governance.
And I think that they're trying to get countries to blow themselves up so that they can show that, oh yeah, you do need our help to come in and save the day.
maajid nawaz
Build back better.
ian crossland
You gotta destroy it before you can build back.
maajid nawaz
That's the point.
What's a great reset?
You have to destroy everything first.
You have to reset it and then build back better.
So I wonder why certain voices in the media, and you see them openly encouraging war with Russia, and I wonder what do you want to build back from the ashes of this war once you've had your way?
And that's why it becomes so important to make sure they don't get their way.
tim pool
There's a great meme.
Are you familiar with the political compass?
maajid nawaz
No.
tim pool
So, uh, the political compass is you've got the authoritarian on top, the libertarian on the bottom.
maajid nawaz
Oh, yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
maajid nawaz
Okay.
unidentified
Yep.
maajid nawaz
Yep.
I am familiar.
tim pool
So you have the authoritarian left, you know, communist... I thought you thought I banned or something.
No, no.
You have the authoritarian right, you know, fascist, traditionalists.
Uh, the meme shows...
It's the Wojak meme.
You know, it's the paintbrush kind of guy with the squiggly face and like the evil eyes.
And each quadrant is looking towards the center.
The far left libertarian, the far right libertarian, the far left authoritarian, and far right authoritarian are all looking down at the story of World War III saying, I can't wait for the world to collapse so I can rebuild this world in my image.
seamus coughlin
Yeah.
maajid nawaz
They all believe it.
And look, there's a problem here, which is that some way or the other, whether it's by enforcing a no-fly zone in Ukraine or it's by directly arming and funding Nazis, I worry about the stability of Europe.
So I'm going to pull something up for you.
I wonder if, Lydia, you can look this up?
So there's a New York Times article.
Let me just find the headline for you so you can search for it.
Give me a second.
And while I'm looking for it, what it's basically, what it's talking about is that because of this as of battalion that has now been raised in Ukraine, already we know that internationally, so I've done a lot of work in counter radicalization and counter extremism.
Before being a broadcaster I founded an organization called Quilliam which was a counter-extremism organization seeking to help understand during the global war on terror how to navigate our way through that from a Muslim background especially because of course Muslims were central to that debate.
I come at this from that angle, when I look at radicalisation, understanding how radicalisation can work.
So if you've got an armed Nazi battalion that gains victory in Ukraine, what that does to radicalisation is incredibly dangerous.
And there's a New York Times article that actually addresses the fact that people now, neo-Nazis, have been travelling from around the world I'm pretty good at Google, I suppose.
to join them. Now once you have, so think ISIS and Al-Qaeda and how global jihadism,
if you had a battlefield, how foreign fighters would go, they'd fight with that jihadist
group and then they'd, hey you got it, I didn't even have to find it for you.
tim pool
I'm pretty good at Google I suppose. Far-right militias in Europe plan to confront Russian
forces, a research group says.
maajid nawaz
Right, so they're flocking to join Azov, right?
Now, the problem here is, what does that do for radicalisation?
If you end up travelling across Europe to join the Azov battalion, you gain combat experience fighting the Russians and then you go back to your country of origin.
Right?
You're now the equivalent of the jihadi foreign fighter.
Now we know what effect that had with global jihadism.
Those that fought in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union when the Soviets occupied Afghanistan.
Al-Qaeda emerged from there.
Global jihadism spread from that combat experience in Afghanistan.
9-11 happened and the rest is history.
This is the powder keg we've currently got.
What happens though in Europe in particular is very interesting.
Combine this New York Times article with the fact that the video, in fact you could probably
still pull up the video of the official Ukrainian National Guard posting that video of the Azov
Battalion guy dipping bullets in pig's lard.
And the reason why that's important...
tim pool
Pig's lard.
maajid nawaz
Is that what you're saying?
Pig fat.
So I'm gonna, if you can't find it, because it's on Twitter, you may not be able to find it, but I'll find it as well.
And then just at least what we can do is, because the audio, he actually uses the word in their language, he uses the word Muslims.
Why that's relevant is combine these two pieces of news together.
You've got the potential for foreign fighter radicalization This time with Nazism as opposed to Jihadism on European soil.
But Europe's never had more Muslim citizens in history than it currently has.
Think France, for example, 10% Muslim.
Also, Europe has a radicalization problem on the Muslim side.
Now, going back to the Great Reset and the destruction of the world order and Build Back Better, this is the perfect way to encourage civil war in Europe.
With these battle-hardened Nazi fighters going back to their countries of origin, you've got jihadis there already.
Keep in mind, the Chechens, who are in Ukraine at the behest of Putin, is who the Azov battalion was talking about when they said they were going to dip their bullets in pig's lard to shoot Chechen Muslims.
Now, the problem here you've got is, so they've gone to fight Chechen Muslims in Ukraine.
They come back to their countries of origin and they find Islamist Muslims in their own countries of origin.
What I worry about is this leading to reciprocal radicalization in European countries and that civil conflict emerging in continental Europe.
tim pool
One of the most valuable things, any great reset, is a civil war.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, exactly, right?
And it's incredibly worrying because we've already had a genocide in Europe, in Bosnia, with Muslims, and you end up with this situation and, you know, we've been funding these.
We've been funding this Nazi battalion.
ian crossland
What was the Bosnian genocide?
maajid nawaz
It was a genocide against Bosnian Muslims.
ian crossland
When?
maajid nawaz
During the Bosnia war.
1990s, early 90s.
ian crossland
And how many people died?
maajid nawaz
So in Srebrenica, in the Srebrenica massacre, you had, I think it was 6,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys.
ian crossland
Jeez, in one day?
maajid nawaz
In a mass grave, in one attack.
unidentified
Wow.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
ian crossland
And this was just the Bosnian government?
maajid nawaz
This is the Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian.
So there was, interestingly, the Olympics were also held there just before this happened.
The Olympics always get involved in these sorts of things.
Remember Hitler had the Olympic Games as well?
It's crazy.
And this is in living memory, by the way, right?
So when I was 15 and 14, this genocide was happening and it radicalized an entire generation of European Muslims.
ian crossland
This is when I was 12 and I remember Clinton, the Bosnian war, it was all about Serbia, Bosnia.
So he sent troops in to stop the genocide.
Was that the intent?
maajid nawaz
So Kosovo came immediately after that.
And so he sent troops in.
The ostensible declared intent was to stop it happening again in Kosovo, where Albanian Muslims were, just after the Bosnia genocide.
But the Dayton Accords is what emerged from that.
It's Clinton's Dayton Accords.
ian crossland
And did that turn him into NATO or something?
The Dayton Accords?
maajid nawaz
I don't know about this.
So the Dayton Accords was a deal that he struck with the Serbs involving the Kosovans to stop the war expanding into Kosovo, but the genocide had already happened by then.
tim pool
I want to talk about manipulation and propaganda, if we can.
So I have this tweet from me.
You are being played.
They are manipulating your emotions to get you to support war.
In the first clip, you can see emotional moment.
German interpreter cries during Zelensky's speech.
Then you have this tweet.
CNN interpreter cries as he translates Zelensky's speech that mentions children killed by Russian strikes.
And then you have another story.
Translator breaks down during Vladimir Zelensky's speech to European Parliament.
I do believe it's not... I believe it's two interpreters, but I posted these three stories because they're the ones I just happen to have.
My intent to... what to explain here is...
Not so much that there are two different circumstances I found where translators began crying.
That is wholly inappropriate, in my opinion, and I believe it's propaganda and manipulation.
Not necessarily intentional or whatever, but I think they allow these things to happen.
They know these things are going to happen because what they want is when the president of Ukraine is giving a speech talking about the devastation and speaking literally about what's happening.
Children are dying.
We need to push back on this.
To drive the point home in terms of manipulating emotions, you have someone cry while saying it, which the president of Ukraine certainly was not doing.
This is a manipulation of your emotions.
To hear someone, he's killing children, and so you go, oh no, they're crying.
They want you to support ground war in Ukraine.
maajid nawaz
And why?
Why?
I mean, well... This comes back to what I'm saying, right?
Well, why would you want to do that?
tim pool
Military-industrial complex profits.
maajid nawaz
No, but you know, it's gonna spark.
ian crossland
I guess who's the they in a major world region?
tim pool
There's there I think for me it's always a simple solution of who benefits and it's um weapons manufacturers stocks skyrocketed the moment war was declared and you know it and And they actually did that article 10.
ian crossland
It was like digital security firms like Palantir.
tim pool
There's an article that said, what was it?
Cutting Russia off from the swift payment system could result in major cyber attacks.
Here are some stocks that will greatly improve or, you know, will go up in value.
And it's like, basically saying invest in these companies.
maajid nawaz
So Lydia, what I've just done is I've just emailed you the video that I'm talking of, of the Azov fighters doing that.
I couldn't send you the tweet because Twitter has decided that this tweet violates their rules.
tim pool
Is it on your Twitter?
maajid nawaz
No, it's still on Twitter, but you can't retweet it or send it to somebody.
But because I quote tweeted it, I've sent you my quote tweet.
Well, who posted it?
tim pool
You quote tweeted it.
maajid nawaz
So the National Guard of Ukraine posted the video.
ian crossland
Oh, this is the pig's blood one?
Yeah, I'm looking at it now.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, and so because I quote tweeted, I can send you my quote tweet, which allows you, but I couldn't send the actual tweet.
tim pool
When did you post it?
maajid nawaz
On the 27th of Feb.
ian crossland
They maybe can help because I'm not Muslim.
tim pool
Let me do this.
What did you say in the quote tweet?
maajid nawaz
Do you want me to email it to you?
tim pool
No, no, just tell me what it was so I can pull it up.
maajid nawaz
I've said, why does the National Guard of Ukraine think it acceptable to glorify the Nazi Azov Brigade while they grease bullets with lard to target Kadyrov's Chechen forces?
unidentified
Got it.
lydia smith
Here we are.
tim pool
Easiest way to pull it up.
maajid nawaz
I'm sorry your country was attacked, me, but armed Nazi units are not an answer, especially when pulling off this I gotta say, I don't know if YouTube would consider it a violation of the rules if we show that video.
lydia smith
But Twitter did.
tim pool
Yeah, Twitter considers it a violation of the rules.
maajid nawaz
But if you clicked view, you can see, if you hit view the video will come up because it's not been banned.
tim pool
My concern is that YouTube will delete the live stream.
ian crossland
We should definitely show this on the after show regardless.
tim pool
We'll show it on the, in fact we'll have a conversation about religion and the implications.
But this is one of the problems of propaganda manipulation and censorship and it's why they need censorship.
I actually believe if we were to show that video, YouTube would probably just take the stream down, give us a strike, block us from streaming, because it's bad for the establishment narrative.
maajid nawaz
And yet it's newsworthy to know that that's what the formal Ukrainian army has tweeted out, with our funding and backing.
tim pool
Hunter Biden's laptop was particularly newsworthy and they shut that down.
ian crossland
This is the first moment I've seen him turned into a religious war of any type.
They're going after their faith.
unidentified
Right.
maajid nawaz
And then why am I raising?
That's the point.
Why I'm raising this is because those that New York Times article you pulled up, Tim.
Right.
So those fighters now, let's call them foreign fighters, a bit like we called foreign jihadi fighters, foreign fighters.
unidentified
Right.
maajid nawaz
They go to join that battalion.
They've gone and they know they're targeting Chechen Muslims.
They get radicalized.
They're Nazis.
They go back to France.
Ten percent of France is Muslim.
Yeah.
And France has its own Muslim radicalization problem.
And France, as we know, and if you read any of Welbeck, for example, his book Submission, we know what could potentially happen with that tension.
And I worry that you end up with this perfect storm.
And you end up with a civil conflict in Europe.
And of course, if you need to build back better, you need a great reset.
tim pool
You can't build back unless there's... Unless there's a great reset.
maajid nawaz
Both of those phrases happen to come from somewhere.
tim pool
In the United States, there's an escalating concern of a civil conflict here as well.
And I certainly feel like it's coming.
ian crossland
I saw a story of Google Pay and Apple Pay banned Russia.
You can't use it in Russia to get on the subway anymore, so the lines are really long.
So I was thinking the cost.
The cost is not only fiscal, but it's time.
If you can't get to where you're going in time, then you can't get it done in time, which means it doesn't get done right, which is another kind of cost.
maajid nawaz
Let's push this a bit.
Why would you have a policy of divide and conquer in this way?
Why do you want me hating you guys?
unidentified
Right?
maajid nawaz
Muslim hating non-Muslims.
If your system is under threat, as we know from the British Empire, the best way to make sure that all of us are not looking up is to make sure we're looking left and right.
tim pool
That's critical race theory.
maajid nawaz
And that's why I believe, if you look at the situation with the money supply, if you look at, like, what's going on with this desire to have this great reset, the only thing that makes sense is to encourage everybody to turn on each other, and we witnessed that happening.
We witnessed that happening in our media narratives.
You know, there's a reason why the word racism is now being thrown around everywhere, not by you or me, but by big corporations.
Who, you know, you think about it, why have they suddenly become so interested in stoking these racial fires?
What's going on?
And these are some of the biggest profit-making corporations on the planet.
tim pool
Why is it that the people who were supporting the rise of Black Lives Matter, who then became the vaccine mandate supporters, are now the flag?
They keep changing the emojis in their Twitter accounts.
It's almost like they're not independently thinking individuals.
ian crossland
Prioritizing profit over all else, maybe?
unidentified
I don't know.
maajid nawaz
But if you follow the causes they've supported, one thing you can see from those causes is they all do end up dividing everybody from each other to a point where people are fighting each other.
ian crossland
Yeah.
Rage bait.
maajid nawaz
Why?
ian crossland
Hate clicks.
Emotions put people in a vulnerable place, and then you can get them to do what you want them to do, and they're emotionally erratic a little easier.
Push this button now!
You better!
tim pool
You know, I wonder if some people are just not able to be independent thinkers.
That's what I should say.
Some people are leaders.
Some people are followers.
There's nothing wrong with being a follower.
Some people just want to, you know, get by and live an honest life and have someone else be more dedicated to the hard decisions.
I can understand that.
But if that's the case, that means there are a lot of people who are going to say something as absurd as, you know, you don't even got to do anything.
You just look it up on the CDC's website, just do whatever they tell you, which in my opinion is an absurd statement.
I mean, you have to take some responsibility for your own life.
ian crossland
Is when you get a follower in a leadership position, like when someone says that dumb follower mind, but they have 100,000 people listening to them, like they're leading follower leads the followers.
tim pool
That's a good, it's a good example of, of, you know, like these, uh, these podcasters who have said, you don't even got to think about it.
Just do what the government tells you or who have, um, their followers who have been put in, you know, high up positions where all they're doing is telling their followers to follow other people to do as they're told basically, because they themselves are followers.
maajid nawaz
I think there's a the average person who's working 9 to 5 who's struggling Monday to Friday to put bread on the table for them and their family.
I can excuse them, right?
They don't have the time, luxury or privilege to think through some of these topics.
What I am particularly animated about is those people that do have the time, luxury and privilege to think through this stuff and still choose to do Or, well, I would say there's also something else on top of that.
seamus coughlin
I agree with you.
But I would argue that in most situations, it's just the fact that they don't want to think too hard about things because then they face social ostracism.
So if you're an academic and you're out of line with the other academics and question their orthodoxy, all of a sudden you're less likely to get a promotion, you're not getting invited out, and you're just not liked by your friends, which is really painful for us as human beings.
So I think oftentimes it isn't necessarily just a profit motive, it's about social status.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, yeah, true.
tim pool
It's funny that the people who throw on the word grifter tend to be the grifters.
maajid nawaz
It's projection, isn't it?
seamus coughlin
Because the thief thinks everyone steals, yeah.
tim pool
Well, let me elaborate on this.
People think everyone else thinks and behaves the way they do.
So what's interesting is, you know, I don't see you accusing left-wing personalities of being grifters.
I maybe periodically might say I believe someone's ingenuous or grifting, but for the most part, the politically homeless, the post-liberal, the freedom faction, whatever you want to call it, aren't going around saying this leftist personality is a grifter for money.
But the leftist personalities say it all day every day.
They make shows and segments just targeting people on the opposite side of the political spectrum and say they're grifting for money.
seamus coughlin
I think it's a genuine failure to understand human motivation in most cases.
I think if somebody believes something that They haven't really looked deeply enough into to have a fast bait fact-based opinion on it's not so much because they're trying to cynically exploit people for gain that can happen, but I really think oftentimes it's because they settled on a particular perspective.
They're afraid of looking into it more deeply.
They do believe that they're right and that they're telling the truth, but they're not responsible in their pursuit of it.
And so they end up promoting things they shouldn't be promoting and saying things that aren't true, and they do end up making money off of that.
But it's not as if they're twirling their mustache going, I'm actually a right-winger and I'm making money as a left-wing pundit or vice versa.
tim pool
I've said something and we saw... Who was it who said this?
I can't remember the gentleman's name.
I'm forgetting.
Clifton Duncan.
ian crossland
Sorry.
tim pool
I think it was Clifton.
I could be wrong.
But I said something to the effect of...
You know, the people who know what's going on, but they're unwilling to stand up and take responsibility and do anything about it, are part of the problem.
But I believe it was Clifton, I could be wrong if it wasn't, forgive me, who said that he's starting to have more contempt for those people.
unidentified
Yeah, that was Clifton.
tim pool
Then, it was Clifton, yeah.
maajid nawaz
Then which people?
tim pool
Then the people who are just like mindless drones as a part of the woke.
maajid nawaz
So the more contempt is for the ones who know?
tim pool
The ones who know, but won't do anything about it.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, well that's my point.
You can't, look, Look, you know, people living on minimum wage, people that are from, say for example, migrant communities whose first language is in English, who are petrified that they're going to get kicked out of the country if they step foot in the wrong direction, there are excuses and understandable reasons for why people may not be engaged with controversial political conversation.
But there are people that have the luxury and the privilege to engage in that, and either don't say the right thing, or are actively saying and doing the wrong thing.
And that's where I think the focus needs to be.
Go back to that example, and you've got governments, and by definition that means people in power, funding armed Nazi brigades.
Now, what that does immediately is undo the entire last 12 years.
We put our, we, when I say we now, I'm talking about Muslims have put their neck on the line to go and challenge a lot of the extremism and terrorism that was coming from our communities, right?
We put our neck on the line.
Me and the networks that I work with, one of them was meant to come here with me today, but paperwork and whatever, Usman, my brother Usman Raja, we do a lot of For example, intervention work in prisons with Muslims who are convicted of high-level terrorism, through mentoring, through martial arts to attempt to rehabilitate them.
Now, you put your neck on the line for that kind of work and you say to these people that there's never an excuse, for example, to leave your democratic, rights-based, civil law-based country to go and join, for example, a jihadi brigade in ISIS because you're upset with Assad, that dictator.
Right now, They're witnessing videos put out by British media encouraging British citizens to go to Ukraine and join that.
It's undone all of the last 10 to 12 years.
And the last point I'll make on this is that back to the Oceania discussion.
We are so unaware of how that's perceived outside of our media matrix.
The work that's been undone is to the point now where you're going to have a 16 year old Muslim based in France who's going to see those Nazis go and fight with other Nazis and say, you know what?
Why am I?
I'm going to go and join the Chechens and fight these guys because they're dipping bullets in pig's blood.
We've gone back to square one.
tim pool
I was invited by YouTube to an anti-extremism event.
The concern was that jihadi groups were using YouTube to recruit.
They were showing videos, they were claiming it was injustice, that you had to fight for justice, and they were talking about strategies to stop this, and it was particularly in the UK.
They said that these groups were targeting kids in the UK to convince them to go fight in these wars.
maajid nawaz
I find it fascinating that you bring up now that it's effectively, essentially okay Well, what you've just said there, right, so I'm going to pull something else up if the Wi-Fi works.
So if you can pull that tweet back up of mine and go down, it's a thread.
So yeah, scroll down and there will be a Oh, you have to log in.
Okay, so there's an intercept article.
I can talk you through it.
There's an intercept article.
Basically, Facebook, on that point, yeah?
On radicalization.
Facebook has decided that it's prohibited to promote the Azov Brigade because they're neo-Nazis.
Unless you're promoting them to fight Russia in Ukraine.
That's right.
tim pool
I saw that.
That's amazing, isn't it?
maajid nawaz
Now this is the... What I'm saying about the... Again, I'm trying not to swear, right?
I'm doing the work we've just done for 12 years on the Muslim side.
Imagine you're a young, you know, 16-year-old French Muslim, right?
And you see that.
tim pool
Imagine you're Antifa.
ian crossland
You were there, man.
tim pool
And you're screaming Nazi for five years.
And then you're like, finally, we're getting these people banned from Facebook.
And Facebook goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
We're letting these guys back on.
ian crossland
I don't know if people even know your history.
maajid nawaz
Here it is.
You see that?
Facebook allows praise of neo-Nazi Ukrainian battalion if it fights Russian invasion.
unidentified
Wow.
maajid nawaz
I mean, I can send it to you, Lydia, if you want to put it up.
lydia smith
That's amazing.
Was that on Twitter?
maajid nawaz
That's on Intercept.
If you look up The Intercept, Facebook allows praise of neo-Nazi Ukrainian, you'll get it on your screen.
I just want people to see this, Tim.
Forgive me.
It's important because the hypocrisy, it stinks.
Look at that.
lydia smith
That's incredible.
maajid nawaz
And the problem is whether you're Antifa or a young Islamist, right?
The problem now is how are you going to react to that?
tim pool
Yeah.
Let's talk about... We're going to do a... It's not a complete hard segue.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
This has a lot to do with the Great Reset, but it's very strange.
This is a story from TimCast.com.
Chile passes employment law prohibiting discrimination against mutations and alterations of genetic material.
Have you heard this?
Employers can only ask workers to undergo genetic testing if it's necessary for their safety.
They say...
The National Congress of Chile passed the policy on February 16th with 114 votes and no abstentions.
No employer may condition the hiring of workers, their permanence, or their renewal of their contract, or the promotion or mobility in their employment to the absence of mutations or alterations in their genome that can cause a predisposition or a high risk of pathology that may manifest itself during the course of the employment relationship.
Now are they saying, is this, let's just be calm for a second.
lydia smith
What is this?
tim pool
Are they basically saying if you have like Down syndrome, Or a genetic disorder.
The question is alterations to the genome.
maajid nawaz
What I find interesting is this specific line here, a predisposition or high risk of a pathology.
So that's almost implying that an alteration to your gene or to your genome could end up with you gaining this pathology you would not have otherwise have had.
What pathology is that that they're saying that you could gain?
unidentified
This is a very, very strange story.
tim pool
What do we have right now that is in any way altering people's genomes?
maajid nawaz
Precisely.
ian crossland
Wi-Fi.
maajid nawaz
No, you're still right.
unidentified
I don't know.
tim pool
5G towers.
unidentified
Well, no, no, but, but, and then everything.
maajid nawaz
Even that, even the vaccines, right?
Which is what you're reading.
How does that, how does that lead to a pathology?
Like this is what I've, what, what, like.
Unless they're saying that there is a connection between whatever gene therapy was in those vaccines to having developed a pathology.
So is that an admission that pathology is one of the side effects?
tim pool
I don't know.
Look, nothing about this has anything to do with the vaccine.
ian crossland
I think what it means is if in case it leads to a pathology and it was genetic, they can't say you can't work here because you're going to fall down a lot because you have this gene or something.
maajid nawaz
No, but it says specifically, right?
Sorry to push this, guys.
No, I want this.
To the absence of mutations or alterations in their genome that cause a predisposition or a high risk of a pathology.
First of all, you're not going to talk about alterations to the gene in a vacuum or a void.
What is it that we've taken recently that causes an alteration?
ian crossland
Yeah, you gotta look at horizontal gene transfer at that point.
The environment.
tim pool
No, no, no.
I think we're more looking at transhumanism in general.
ian crossland
Oh yeah, CRISPR.
They're going in there and altering genetics in babies and stuff.
maajid nawaz
But they're not doing that in Chile.
ian crossland
Chile is actually one of the most co-opted countries on earth right now.
I spent a couple months down there, six months, and I was learning, like, it's the highest, it's one of the most copper-rich countries in the world, so it's like military-industrial complex, it just owns it now.
Diet Coke is in there making people obese.
tim pool
China absolutely is doing tons.
China did it, but Chile's not.
But what if you're one of these Chinese super, uber-mench, and you go and do work?
No, China's doing tons of exploration and development.
maajid nawaz
Why randomly in Chile?
ian crossland
Chile is a big business place right now.
I don't know if a lot of people realize.
tim pool
No, no, no.
I don't think the country of origin matters so much as we know China's been, it's been reported by numerous outlets, been working on ubermensch, supermen, super soldiers.
And this seems like, I gotta be honest, it says alteration to the genome.
It sounds like they're preparing Because once you do that, you're born with the alteration, right?
maajid nawaz
Forever.
tim pool
Well, there's this thing called... TimGuess.com says, some reporting of the bill's passage noted that Chile has been celebrated for its high vaccination rate.
unidentified
Right.
lydia smith
But again... We don't know.
tim pool
Whenever it comes to that stuff, just talk to a doctor.
We're not... I think... I don't want to be too myopic.
unidentified
Right.
tim pool
Or, you know, what I see here... It's just weird.
maajid nawaz
It's weird, though, you've got to admit.
unidentified
Well, absolutely.
tim pool
That's why I wanted to talk about it.
lydia smith
I just want to know why now.
Because I am not inclined to believe it is because of the vaccination, but I'm very curious.
It's a very strange place, and it is a strange time.
So I'm wondering, is it WES stuff?
tim pool
I think it's transhumanists, Great Reset-oriented kind of stuff.
So why Chile?
Because, well, I mean, Ian can give you an example, as he said, it's a corrupted country, but who cares if it's Chile?
It doesn't matter if it's Chile.
What matters is there is a country doing it, and there are countries like China that do this kind of genetic modification and alteration.
ian crossland
And Chile's like right on the coast, right up for China to just land on.
tim pool
But regardless, if any company is doing work in this country and they've passed this law, certainly something has occurred in this country to trigger the requirement of this law.
So my question is, who?
Well, we know China's doing it.
lydia smith
I want to get to the bottom of this.
tim pool
What are they doing?
The one thing we know is the super soldier stuff.
But does this mean that in Chile, genetically engineered or modified or altered humans are employed at companies?
lydia smith
Maybe.
maajid nawaz
I mean, you wouldn't have that introduced if there wasn't that consideration.
tim pool
Something had to have happened or they're preparing for something.
maajid nawaz
What's interesting is the difference between change to your genetic code and change to your genome.
tim pool
I don't know.
ian crossland
Did you ask if there is or are you saying?
maajid nawaz
No, there's an interesting difference, right?
So the change to the genome, I believe, is permanent in your lineage forever.
tim pool
Oh, right, right, right.
maajid nawaz
Whereas a change to your genetic code in you- It's just you.
It's just you.
That's interesting because- A change to your genome means your lineage forever has that altered gene.
ian crossland
There's lateral gene transfer, which is your lineage, and then there's horizontal gene transfer, which is your environment changing your genetics.
tim pool
What if this is where Alex Jones' animal-human hybrids are- I'm kidding, by the way.
ian crossland
No, no, don't even joke.
They patented life, dude.
I remember a Supreme Court thing in 2011 where they finally decided you can patent life.
seamus coughlin
What if we've just gotten so progressive that we're trying to protect the rights of groups that don't even exist yet?
And now every single country is gonna try to out-progressive the last country by being like, yeah, well this group that doesn't even exist yet will be protected!
tim pool
You can't discriminate against giant balloon gaseous orbs from outer space!
maajid nawaz
No, it has some grounding in reality.
lydia smith
Yes, it must.
maajid nawaz
You don't just introduce that law.
seamus coughlin
I hear you.
It's weird.
It is very fishy.
maajid nawaz
According to the World Health Organization, what does it say?
The South American nation has had over 3 million cases of COVID.
tim pool
COVID-19.
maajid nawaz
See, they're linking it to COVID, man.
tim pool
Well, this is TimCast.com.
I will absolutely criticize my own website.
ian crossland
Let's do that together.
maajid nawaz
Who wrote it?
tim pool
It's Hannah Clare Brimelow.
Hannah Clare is actually really, really good.
lydia smith
She's great.
tim pool
But I do think we have issues where I personally would be very careful about directly adding a framing device such as, hey, look at all the COVID cases in this country.
I don't see that as relevant to the passage of this law.
maajid nawaz
I mean, you speak to whoever the, I mean, I don't know the lady, but why would they have put that in there?
That's maybe a conversation you need to have.
tim pool
Absolutely.
Oh, we do have these conversations rather.
ian crossland
Yeah, this is one that I just don't I'm not comfortable talking about on YouTube due to terms and conditions.
But you know, when you're working with genetic materials, then what were you gonna say?
maajid nawaz
No, it's just that it says it says similar in Switzerland and Austria, similar laws protecting the genetic characteristics of workers had already been passed in Switzerland and Austria.
tim pool
But again, the question here is, are they referring to someone who might have Down syndrome?
ian crossland
Right.
tim pool
Like you can't discriminate against someone with Down syndrome.
ian crossland
It sounds like they are.
maajid nawaz
No, but then you just say you don't discriminate against people that have disabilities.
unidentified
Why would you need to introduce... It's such a weird thing to call a genetic mutation to if you're just talking disabilities.
tim pool
It'd be a very weird thing to do.
Because in a progressive world, you can't call Down syndrome a disability.
seamus coughlin
But I think calling it a mutation sounds way worse.
maajid nawaz
And then in particular, you specify genome?
tim pool
But the bill specifically says alterations, which is intentional after birth changes.
ian crossland
But also it indicates alterations, like I guess it was the way she wrote it, that alterations that aren't bad.
Like if you scroll up to the top again where it says the word alterations, wherever that was.
tim pool
See, I'm not a fan of this article.
ian crossland
Could just be the way it was written.
tim pool
I don't think it's relevant to include context, because what if I wrote the article and I put, in China, they've been, you know, working with... Is that the bill?
It appears to be.
ian crossland
It seems to indicate that if they're genetic superhumans, you also can't discriminate against them.
seamus coughlin
Well, superhumans don't have to worry about discrimination, all right?
ian crossland
So we think!
seamus coughlin
Well, let me tell you something.
They will overcome the issues.
Oh, you're right.
unidentified
The more you do for them, the more they'll hate you.
maajid nawaz
They live among us, right?
ian crossland
We are superheroes.
God's energy is flowing through us, empowering us.
maajid nawaz
It is the future.
tim pool
Let's see.
Well, I'm trying to find other sources on this one, too.
maajid nawaz
Do you know if it's reported anywhere else?
lydia smith
I'm sure it is.
tim pool
I'd have to dig into it.
lydia smith
Yeah, I'm really curious about this.
tim pool
But maybe we need a hard fact check on that one.
ian crossland
Majira, are you going to get the neural net and go into the metaverse?
maajid nawaz
You know, maybe, but I'm not so sure that I want to do it with meta as a company.
ian crossland
I'd like it to be free software so you can watch the algorithm.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
And also I just, I just, yeah, it's just, uh, I'm not too keen on, on Facebook's and Meta's recent turn, you know?
seamus coughlin
Can you imagine?
No, I mean, it's a good point.
Look at the way Facebook influences people with their algorithms now and then say, you know what?
I really want to plug my brain into that.
I trust those people.
ian crossland
Zuckerberg was on a Lex Friedman's podcast and was like, I'm a, so I studied psychology.
I'm a psychologist.
So he's doing like a psychology experiment right now with that.
It's technically kind of unethical, you know?
lydia smith
They got in trouble for doing experiments on people without their knowledge and consent.
They chose to do things that they knew would depress people.
And it worked!
ian crossland
I would like to extirpate the, I think that's the way to say that word, the concept of the metaverse from meta.
I don't think they have, they're just a piece of sand in the heap that's gonna be the metaverse.
They'll have their own highway, or version of highway, but there's gonna be trillions of them.
maajid nawaz
Well it's unfortunate they've taken the name meta.
ian crossland
I know, it was really gross.
maajid nawaz
That's almost attempting to kind of like, you know like we say vacuum when we mean, when we say Hoover when we mean a vacuum cleaner.
seamus coughlin
Or Kleenex when you mean tissue.
maajid nawaz
Xerox when you mean copy.
So that's what they're trying to do.
They're trying to basically monopolize the brand.
tim pool
I'm not convinced this story is real, to be completely honest.
maajid nawaz
It's on your website, man!
tim pool
I know, I know.
seamus coughlin
Look how long we talked about that.
ian crossland
Copywriting in real time.
tim pool
And I absolutely have the standards to see it and then come in and be like, something's not right here.
Something's not right here.
maajid nawaz
Well, someone should read the bill when they have time.
tim pool
But I don't even know if this is a real document.
maajid nawaz
So hang on, your website may be publishing fake news?
tim pool
Absolutely.
lydia smith
Good to know.
tim pool
So I have very serious standards.
maajid nawaz
To be fair to the journalists involved, because we would want to be sensitive to the fact that you just may have outed one of your own people.
tim pool
I have a correction to make too.
When we were talking about the bill, it said 70% of liberals think we should protect Ukraine's borders, it's more important than ours.
Cassandra was 100% correct.
I confused liberal and Democrat.
Among Democrats it was 57, among liberals it was 70.
And so I gotta be very careful about... But I'll put it this way, because when we pull up a story and I'm like, wait a minute, this seems to be off, the numbers seem to be wrong.
I got no problem being like, if you work for TimCast.com and I see something I don't think is right, I don't care if you're TimCast.com or otherwise, I'm gonna make sure.
Because I think the people who read the site have an expectation of standards here.
ian crossland
That's why people work for you anyway, because they like that.
tim pool
Well, so I'm trying to real-time fact-check this because I have a high degree of trust for the people that work for us, but we make mistakes.
Sometimes something slips through.
maajid nawaz
Tomorrow you'll be able to come back on this thing.
tim pool
It may be illegitimate.
The issue is right now in real time.
I don't know if I could fact-check this other than the sources that are writing about it seem desperate to link this to vaccination, which is ridiculous.
And it's kind of annoying.
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
Because if there was a bill talking about this, the immediate assumption is it has to do with... Even in this document it says physical or mental conditions, you know, on the job or whatever.
It sounds like they're talking about genetic diseases.
maajid nawaz
So the headline is misleading, then, if that's the case.
tim pool
Right.
ian crossland
But it could be your environment could cause the genetic disease.
Like burn pits we were talking about last night, people coming back with, like, just traumatic injury and cancers and things like that.
maajid nawaz
What he's saying is that the use of the word alterations would seem to suggest a deliberate alteration to the gene, which is not disabilities.
ian crossland
Oh, otherwise it would be a mutation.
maajid nawaz
yeah uh and i think yeah it could be me too or you just use the word disabilities right if you were talking about that word's getting retconned is it becoming not pc to say disabled or disability for a while they were trying to say differently abled yeah that's an older one but there are pc equivalents to what we used to describe as disability And it's not the PC equivalent, isn't gene alteration.
seamus coughlin
Exactly.
ian crossland
It's interesting that they're going at the genes, that they're focusing on the genetics of it.
I do think it has to do with CRISPR.
It's been around for 20 years or something.
maajid nawaz
But his point is that he's saying it may not even be a real strain.
tim pool
I don't believe it.
maajid nawaz
That's where you need to look into it.
I feel a bit bad for the writer because they're not here to defend themselves.
tim pool
That's true.
Well, so typically what we do is we always want to have original sources.
There's no original source included in the article, which is why I'm immediately saying the bill could be fake.
It's not up to our standards 100% with no original sourcing.
There's a translated PDF from a website that is questionable at best.
maajid nawaz
Translated from Spanish to English.
tim pool
Right.
So this is not an original document.
It's not an original source.
It's on a website that's questionable.
lydia smith
It sounds like a journalism lesson.
It's great.
tim pool
Absolutely.
And it's also a standard lesson.
It's a lesson in standards I have.
I apologize to Cassandra, because she was like, you said that I got something wrong, then Ian said we need a fact checker, and I was right, and you were wrong, and I wasn't there, and I'm like, alright.
ian crossland
I love you, Cassandra.
tim pool
Cassandra, you were right.
maajid nawaz
Is that the same?
ian crossland
No, no, no.
maajid nawaz
Oh, it's a different writer.
tim pool
No, no, no.
ian crossland
Cassandra Fairbanks.
maajid nawaz
McDonald.
ian crossland
Oh yes, Cassandra McDonald!
Congratulations, guys!
tim pool
To be fair, pencils have erasers.
When news outlets publish incorrect things, I just say, correct it.
And if they're willing to correct it, I say, well, we move on.
What are we going to do about it?
When they refuse to correct it, now that's the issue, like the New York Times and Project Veritas.
Yeah.
They want to smear, they want to lie, and cheat, and steal, and even admit it, but then not correct it on video.
unidentified
Or CNN.
maajid nawaz
CNN with Rogan.
seamus coughlin
If you get called out for this, all you have to say is, the science changed.
lydia smith
That's right.
tim pool
That's right.
lydia smith
Exactly.
tim pool
The science changed.
The science changed.
maajid nawaz
You can say, I am the science.
seamus coughlin
I am the journalist.
tim pool
I'll just be like, I am the science.
seamus coughlin
I am the truth.
I am the science.
maajid nawaz
No, I am the truth.
ian crossland
I am the scientific method.
I get to write like a speech like a short paragraph of I am the science.
I am the method.
I am the actor in the acted.
I looked up radical antonyms because I'm like how can we how can we be de-radicalized without having to say be counterdependent on the word radical.
It came it gave me conservative.
maajid nawaz
It's interesting you did that because since being let's put it politely since having my show ended Yes.
Right.
There's a legal dispute so I have to put it politely.
Since having my show ended on the UK's largest commercial broadcaster I am starting a new show on Odyssey and it's called Radical because I believe that that word actually when I was young I used to skateboard.
Tim you remember this man.
unidentified
Radical!
maajid nawaz
Radical!
Rad was a positive!
ian crossland
He still is!
maajid nawaz
So actually what it means is thinking out of the box.
So Radical with Majin Noir's will be available on Odyssey in about a month or so.
unidentified
I guess Radical's neutral.
seamus coughlin
It's cyclical though, well because Radical was frowned upon and then it became a good thing and now it's frowned upon again.
Why is that?
Because they were trying to change the established order at that time so being Radical was good and now that their order is in place being Radical is bad because it's a threat to what they've built.
maajid nawaz
And I kind of feel like, you know, a bit like the N-word.
It's Muslims who have been labeled with this word radical, and I have been.
seamus coughlin
Interesting.
maajid nawaz
So I kind of feel like I'm going to reclaim that word.
ian crossland
I love it.
maajid nawaz
And my autobiography is called Radical as well.
So I kind of feel like ownership over that word.
ian crossland
You could say George Washington was a radical, that all the founding fathers were way radical.
maajid nawaz
Thinking out of the box is a good thing.
And you know, to be honest, even if you're wrong and you're thinking out of the box, I still respect you more than somebody who's just following the damn crowd.
ian crossland
I would argue that thinking outside the box is neutral.
If you do it for evil, it can be very bad.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
I mean, look, that's a moral judgment on the actual ability to think out of the box, but the prerequisite to being able to change anything is it's a necessity, right?
ian crossland
Oh, yeah.
You got to see your own perspective from the outside.
maajid nawaz
Precisely.
You know, precisely.
Now you could, you could end up having that ability like any ability and do wrong with it and do bad with it.
It's just like saying you have a high IQ and you can use your high IQ to do evil.
ian crossland
So you think allowing yourself to speak radically and witnessing yourself doing it via video, it helps you put a check on yourself to not become too radical?
maajid nawaz
Well look, everybody evolves, right?
So here's the other thing.
So I wouldn't be the person I am today if, as the 16-year-old me, I didn't adopt ideas that I now vehemently disagree with.
But that's part of my evolution and I think everybody, every teenager It's a rite of passage, man.
Every teenager goes through that kind of phase where they rebel against everything, and to an extent where it's harmless, where it doesn't do too much damage, we've got to be able to manage that process.
Because what you don't want to do is discourage... Surely this is what Pink Floyd's brick-in-the-wall is about, right?
I don't need no education.
seamus coughlin
Are you raising kids?
maajid nawaz
Do you have children?
What you don't want to do is encourage robots.
So we've got to work out a way where innovative thinking, even where it's wrong, is accepted by us
as a right passage for young people to arrive at them wherever they end up.
ian crossland
Are you raising kids?
maajid nawaz
Do you have children?
Yeah, I've got a five-year-old and a 21-year-old.
ian crossland
Are you homeschooling?
unidentified
No.
ian crossland
Are you considering it at all?
maajid nawaz
Yes, but at the moment I'm not doing it.
ian crossland
Yeah, I'm thinking about doing that too.
I don't have any kids yet, but that's my plan.
I just don't trust this robot forming public school system.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, I mean, what I don't understand is the same people that listen to, still to this day, would listen to say, we don't need no education, and yet everything they do is the opposite of the music.
seamus coughlin
I went to a liberal arts college and what they told me is that racism and white supremacy run amok in this country.
maajid nawaz
And it's just strange to me.
It's like all the cultural icons you respect, even if, you know, they are the exact opposite of what you're doing.
And the worst part is when those same voices, now thankfully Pink Floyd isn't one of these examples, but when those same voices themselves flip and start becoming really weirdly established.
ian crossland
When Neil Young was really mad at Rogan.
maajid nawaz
That's what I was referring to.
seamus coughlin
I don't think it's quite as ironic as we might believe at first glance.
They were trying to establish a new social order, that social order is here and now they're trying to protect it.
maajid nawaz
So yesterday's radicals become today's conservatives.
seamus coughlin
Exactly.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, I mean, yes, I get that point, but Neil Young, I mean, free speech.
lydia smith
Right.
seamus coughlin
I mean, well, yeah, well, and then, of course, that's a principle you're always going to defend.
He said, not necessarily.
If you're operating within a system that privileges free speech or believes it's a positive value and you want to change that system, you're going to use that tool.
And then as soon as you come to power, you're going to say, nope, don't like that.
maajid nawaz
But you see, that's what that demonstrates to me, that he wasn't really committed to free speech.
seamus coughlin
Or at the very least, because also we want to be charitable to some extent and say maybe he was at the time but isn't anymore.
maajid nawaz
Whereas Roger Waters, you find Roger Waters today still very radical.
You don't have to agree with him, but he's still very kind of anti-establishment, trying his best to think out of the box.
And I respect that, even though you don't agree, you know, or disagree.
I respect it.
ian crossland
In my radicalism, sometimes I found that sometimes it was better to stay in the box, but I'd still just do the radical thing because I thought it's better to be radical.
But it's better to just be right.
It's better to fit the process, whatever it stands for, radicalism or conservatism.
maajid nawaz
Seek the truth.
seamus coughlin
I like what I really like is Chesterton's gate.
And so it's the principle that when you find a gate, you try to figure out why it's there instead of just mindlessly tearing it down.
And if it turns out it's there for a bad reason or doesn't make sense, then you tear the gate down.
But you don't go about saying, we need to completely destroy the social boundary before you try to understand it, which I think is what a lot of people who are a radical attempt to do today and have in the past.
lydia smith
I think it requires a great deal of strength of character to hold on to your anti-establishmentarianism.
Most people don't have that and you'll see that when you look at the way people do things like raise their kids and do their work and they're looking for the shortcut, they're looking for the easy way out.
And this is because having strong moral character is hard.
It's very challenging, and it's something that you must hold yourself accountable with.
And it's something that people are afraid to do now, I think.
They're just looking for the quick out.
I don't know.
That's kind of what I came up with.
ian crossland
It's like the panacea of having enough money and the food, and they feel like if they get radical, they're going to lose access to that panacea, and then they're going to starve, or the kids are going to go hungry.
So they're like, Forced inside the box.
seamus coughlin
It's possible that we have it too good and we're afraid to lose it Well, no, so this is interesting you were mentioning earlier that there are some people who are really afraid of losing their livelihood and so they don't speak out on these issues and sometimes it's Understandable because they have a family to feed and the cost would be too high for them And then there are other people who aren't speaking out because they're afraid I would venture to guess though and maybe this is a little pessimistic on my part, but I really believe given the state of the people In America at the very least, if we were able to completely eliminate the risk of losing your job over your opinions, I think a lot of the same people still would not state them publicly because what they're most afraid of is social ostracism.
ian crossland
Which can lead to cultural ostracism and political ostracism.
seamus coughlin
No, you have to cultivate that.
You really do.
It's very important.
tim pool
And to the people in chat, I did not go to the bathroom.
seamus coughlin
I can confirm.
tim pool
They were like, Tim, stop talking so we go to the bathroom.
ian crossland
You know, yesterday we did this video thing during the live stream of the Biden's campaign speech where all our videos were on the screen.
We should do that when we show stories because it was so fun to watch all our faces at once.
Everybody got to see their favorite character.
lydia smith
Yeah, it was so fun, yeah.
ian crossland
Like, who's this person?
lydia smith
They're making faces.
tim pool
Yeah, so in the downtime, I was conferring with our editor-in-chief, who agrees that story is probably bunk.
ian crossland
Unconfirmed.
The story is unconfirmed.
tim pool
Nah, I'll come out and say it.
Sounds bunk.
Had typos in it, like someone just plastered it up and it slipped through.
maajid nawaz
Well, I'm still interested in Chase.
The buck stops with the editor-in-chief, though, there, surely.
I'm trying to defend the little journalist here just because they're not here to defend themselves.
tim pool
I can only apologize and everyone else can apologize and say I'm pretty sure that story is not real.
maajid nawaz
Wow.
tim pool
Normally I'm reading all the news every single day but that one went up right before we're doing the show and I saw it and I have faith in our news team.
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
While we were reading it I'm like wait a minute something doesn't make sense here and so I started looking at the sources which are dubious and then I reached out to the team.
maajid nawaz
Is somebody in trouble right now?
unidentified
Yes.
tim pool
But it is what it is, man.
You know, look, we try our best.
Pencils have erasers.
Sometimes things slip through and, you know, mistakes happen.
But, you know, we try our best.
We're not perfect.
ian crossland
I just looked up Chile genetic engineering laws and one of the links is world human cloning policies at Rice University.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, I mean, I suppose a story that significant, if your website's the only one breaking it, that's a bit of a red flag.
ian crossland
Yeah, I saw another website called Daily Expo Zeta UK, but it's dated tomorrow, the 3rd of March.
maajid nawaz
Is it on the Daily Expo?
seamus coughlin
Maybe it's from the future then.
ian crossland
Oh, the Daily Expo, is that what it is?
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
Is it on that website?
ian crossland
Yeah.
maajid nawaz
It is?
ian crossland
Yeah.
maajid nawaz
Is that where the source was?
tim pool
One of them.
Is that a fake site?
maajid nawaz
No, no, no, no.
So they don't tend to publish fake news, I can tell you that.
tim pool
But the link to the vaccines is just infuriating to me.
maajid nawaz
Is that what's on the Daily Exposed?
tim pool
The Daily Exposed connects the article to vaccination.
And the problem I have with that is, there's very few things that make me legitimately angry, but one of it is when news sites falsely frame things by connecting them to things that are Well, I mean, you'd have to have a reason to make that connection.
maajid nawaz
For example, a legislator would have had to say, this is why we want to make this law.
tim pool
Which is not the case.
maajid nawaz
And so the annoying thing is... As a journalist, you'd have to have that link, you know?
tim pool
If we publish the article at TimCast.com and it outright said, some people have questioned China's super soldier program, In China, they're doing this.
I'd be like, why are you including that has nothing to do with the news?
So if there's a bill being passed that says we did X and we will now enforce X, you're done.
Nothing else.
ian crossland
That story is actually from the 25th.
It's the expose.
There's an accent on the last E. So it's pronounced expose.
tim pool
I suppose the issue is there's no original sourcing in it, and that's a serious issue.
So it may be true.
My issue is the framing, and my issue is if you're gonna source a Chilean law, you need the Chilean document from the Chilean government, not another website's translation of a PDF that they've not sourced.
So I'm not a fan.
But hey, look, I got standards.
Not everybody is me, and I don't write every single story, but I'll absolutely call out, I don't care who it is, And we'll do better.
But, you know, my only real issue, like I was saying with a lot of mainstream news websites, is not when they get things wrong, it's when they don't correct them.
That's the main issue.
Issue of correction.
So the policy we have at TimCast.com is any change has to be logged and documented.
unidentified
Yes.
tim pool
So, like, if we change a single word for, like, even formatting reasons, we'll put a note, right?
Editor's note.
maajid nawaz
After it's been published.
tim pool
Yes.
ian crossland
Oh, there's actually something called NeuroRightsFoundation.org slash Chile, NeuroRights in Chile, which the expose references immediately.
A bill to amend the constitution to protect brain rights or NeuroRights.
unidentified
Okay.
ian crossland
It's not, it's not connected and it doesn't prove anything, but this is very interesting.
Chilean NeuroRights are on there.
tim pool
The story is not complete.
So I'm hearing that there may be something here, but we would have to go and actually find the original sourcing documents.
So for now we're pulling the article.
ian crossland
Cool.
NeuroRights.
tim pool
Real-time fact-checking from your own website.
ian crossland
They're talking about metaverse thoughts.
Do you own your thoughts?
Does someone else own your thoughts?
maajid nawaz
Well, that's what we end up with, right?
ian crossland
Does someone else own the shape of the neurons of your brain?
Can they patent the shape that the neurons make to produce the memory?
unidentified
Let's go to Super Chats!
tim pool
If you haven't already, smash the like button, subscribe to this channel, share the show with your friends, and if you still have faith in us, go to TimCast.com and become a member because I would love to Alright, let's read some superchats!
website in real time for all of you to watch so you know that we take it very
very seriously and if you agree with that your support means the world to us
but we are gonna have a members only segment coming up just after the show
it'll be around 11 p.m. and that should be a whole lot of fun we're gonna talk a
lot about spirituality and religion I believe among other stories
particularly the tweet that Magid has that YouTube would probably boot us for
if we showed but we'll put up on the site all right let's read some super
chats all right let's see trip sucks says Ian I ordered you a couple 20 sided
One of them has only 20s on each side and the other has only ones.
Use them wisely.
Check the mail in a couple weeks.
ian crossland
10% chance to roll a 20 then.
It's better than one.
unidentified
10?
tim pool
What do you mean?
ian crossland
Well, you got a 5% chance to hit every number on a 20-sided die.
So if there's two 20s, then I have a 10% chance to roll a 20.
tim pool
Every side.
ian crossland
It's a two 20s and then everything else was a one.
No.
seamus coughlin
Ian, you're rolling a 1 right now, man.
There's too many of those dice.
tim pool
20-sided dice.
One of them has nothing but 20s.
Oh, okay.
One of them has nothing but 1s.
lydia smith
There we go.
tim pool
Ian, you rolled a 1 already.
ian crossland
I'm gonna have to roll a die to find out which die I have to roll.
tim pool
There you go.
If it's greater than 10, you can roll it.
You get a 20.
unidentified
All right.
tim pool
Wired Night says, I really see World War III is right around the corner.
Putin isn't going to stop.
He is this era.
Oh, man.
He's saying this era is Hitler down with Putin.
Keep up the protest in Russia and hopefully they'll take him in custody.
I think they're being a bit sarcastic.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
Well, he's not going to stop, but it won't trigger World War III.
tim pool
I mean, do you really think so?
maajid nawaz
Well, because I don't think Biden and I don't think Boris Johnson are going to retaliate in that way.
He's already been asked to impose a no-fly zone.
They haven't done so and they won't do so.
tim pool
And when we had a guest on the show who said Russia will not invade and they will not go anywhere near Kharkiv, they're not going to go to Kiev.
maajid nawaz
No, so we've already been asked to impose a no-fly zone and we've said no.
tim pool
Well, my point is they could just do it.
maajid nawaz
Do what?
tim pool
A no-fly zone.
unidentified
Who?
tim pool
NATO, the UK, or the US.
maajid nawaz
So why would they though?
tim pool
Well, why did Russia invade Kiev?
maajid nawaz
But we know why Russia did it.
So we've had that discussion.
unidentified
No, no, no.
tim pool
Hold on.
A week ago, there was only speculation from U.S.
intelligence agencies that Russia would do this.
And as far as we knew Russia, Putin said, no, we're just recognizing Donbass as independent.
And then I said, I don't think they're going to invade it.
That's absurd.
I don't know what they'd accomplish.
maajid nawaz
You said that.
I went to Rogan and said they would.
tim pool
And then he did.
maajid nawaz
And he did a couple of days after.
tim pool
So maybe you're right on this one.
maajid nawaz
And I don't think we're going to impose a no-fly zone.
tim pool
And I want to make this point too.
I don't believe mutually assured destruction is a real thing.
maajid nawaz
Okay, so if there's a mutual nuclear war, who stops?
tim pool
What do you mean by who stops?
maajid nawaz
So mutually assured destruction, the whole point of it is that you don't stop, right?
You end up destroying each other.
tim pool
Right, right, right.
maajid nawaz
So if I drop a nuke on you and you drop a nuke on me and I drop a nuke back on you, how does that stop?
unidentified
Why would you nuke me?
maajid nawaz
So that's different to saying you don't think it's a mutually assured destruction.
tim pool
I'm going to use a Socratic method.
Why would you?
maajid nawaz
No, I wouldn't.
unidentified
No, no, no.
maajid nawaz
I'm saying I wouldn't.
unidentified
Choose it.
maajid nawaz
No one would.
Putin wouldn't.
But mutually assured destruction is a doctrine that assumes somebody has in the first place.
And the only relevance of the doctrine is to say that they wouldn't because it would lead to mutually assured destruction.
tim pool
No, no, no, no.
But it's not correct.
Why would someone nuke?
Why would one country nuke?
Why would Putin nuke another country?
maajid nawaz
So in theory, why you do it is because you're going to lose a war.
You don't have aerial superiority.
And the only trump card you have is a nuclear weapon.
tim pool
And where do you send it?
maajid nawaz
And you're about to lose, right?
tim pool
So where do you fire the nuclear weapon?
What's your target?
maajid nawaz
The country that's conquering you.
tim pool
But what's the target in the country?
maajid nawaz
Say the capital city.
tim pool
Why the civilian capital?
Is that where they have the weapons?
maajid nawaz
But that's where that so wherever their leadership and command and control is, is where you think it's based.
tim pool
I mean, that was maybe true 70 years ago.
maajid nawaz
Yep.
tim pool
But we know for a fact now that certainly the United States is government is decentralized to a point that DC is not relevant to the operation of the United States government.
So there's absolutely zero point in nuking civilians.
maajid nawaz
D.C.
Let's say, for example, you're Iran and you're Israel.
And imagine Iran develops its nuclear capability to a point where it has a weapon, right?
Israel isn't that large a country.
Iran is basically do or die.
They're about to lose the war and they say, listen, Either we lose and we all get killed or we launch this bomb because I'd rather we end the war in this way, right?
tim pool
How would it end the war by killing civilians?
It doesn't inhibit the military.
maajid nawaz
But see, what I'm trying to say is mutually assured destruction is a doctrine that only applies once you've launched a nuclear weapon.
My point is... What you're asking is why would you launch one in the first place.
I don't think you would.
unidentified
No, no, no, no, no, no.
tim pool
My point is if a nuke was headed in your direction and I, as your military advisor, came to you and said, we can't stop it.
10 million civilians will die.
You have the option to kill 10 million civilians of your own, though.
It's not going to stop anything, but certainly you can kill a bunch of innocent people.
I don't believe that makes sense.
Now, when it comes to ideology like Iran, well, they want to wipe out Israel.
That's a different question.
Israel may say, we'll hit, I don't believe Israel would just be like, well then murder all of the Iranian people.
I don't believe that's true.
I believe that Iran might say, can we intercept?
Do we have strategic, you know, SDI defenses or things like that and try and stop nuclear weapons?
And they may respond by targeting key military infrastructure.
But the idea that one country fires nukes targeting a civilian base, which doesn't stop the war in any capacity, and then the other country responds by blowing up the other country's civilians, which doesn't stop the war in any capacity, makes no sense at all.
maajid nawaz
You're applying reason and rational thought processes to somebody that decides to launch a nuclear weapon.
tim pool
Yep.
maajid nawaz
And so an ideologically driven nation may not decide to launch a nuclear weapon for the reasons that You deem rational.
tim pool
Only if they're targeting another ideological nation do you get mutually assured destruction.
In the event of Russia, say...
maajid nawaz
So it could happen.
tim pool
It could happen in limited capacities between small, smaller nations.
maajid nawaz
So North Korea and say... North Korea and... I don't believe North Korea.
Okay, so sufficiently ideological nation.
tim pool
Iran and... So when you have like a desire to wipe out Israel for long-standing deep-seated issues, but I don't see Israel as the kind of nation that would respond by saying, let's just eradicate the Iranian people.
maajid nawaz
You don't see Israel as a kind of nation that would say- Do you think the people of Israel- Retaliation demands this.
I'll put it this way- Because I disagree with you there.
tim pool
Do you think the people of Israel want to mass genocide the Iranians?
No, but- But do you think the people of- at least a large portion of Iran wants to wipe out the Jewish people?
maajid nawaz
And that's my point.
That if Iran were to launch it, I do see Israel saying, they've now taken out a city, we demand revenge.
Revenge isn't the same as wanting to wipe out a nation.
It's just revenge.
tim pool
Is the revenge on the civilians?
maajid nawaz
That country struck us.
We need to strike back.
tim pool
But I think that may have made sense 70 years ago.
I don't see that making sense today.
maajid nawaz
I'm not so sure they would be looking to make sense.
tim pool
So, you also have to think about it from the individual.
When it comes to the West, I don't see an individual, on average at least, certainly there are some people who wouldn't care.
But if, again, someone came to, if you went to the average person and said, there's a bomb that's going to kill, you know, 10 million people, you can't stop it.
These 10 million people will die in two hours.
You can respond by killing 10 million people, press the button.
It's like, I just don't see a human emotional response.
Not a logical one.
I don't see a human emotional response being like, better kill a bunch of civilians.
seamus coughlin
It's more like that.
But I could also see somebody in a situation where nukes are heading towards their country saying, well, these people are clearly comfortable launching nukes, and if we don't launch something back, they could kill a bunch of other innocent people when they have gotten the message from us that you could just nuke someone without retaliation.
maajid nawaz
Keep in mind, the only time that nukes have been used, it was used twice, right?
ian crossland
For two cities.
maajid nawaz
So you drop one on Hiroshima, it doesn't end the war, you then drop one on Nagasaki.
So say Iran launches one, takes out one city, there's a rational thought process, which I even question would be the thought process, but let's follow that logic.
There's a rational thought process that could say, hey, they might target another city unless we retaliate as a deterrent.
But that's assuming they're thinking rationally.
I don't even think at that point people would.
ian crossland
Yeah, the thing about nuclear-assured destruction is that they've already... The country's not going to launch one.
They launch 80 at all the cities at once.
The assurance of destruction is that you have already decided we are going to be destroyed in 20 minutes, completely.
Now what are we going to do with our nuclear weapons?
And that's the whole bunch of civilians outside... Well, I don't know, like Seamus made a good point.
maajid nawaz
Why are you arguing for the doctrine here?
That is the doctrine.
tim pool
It makes no sense.
maajid nawaz
That's the point of it.
That's why nobody would launch a nuclear war.
tim pool
That's not... I believe that makes literally no sense.
Russia invaded Ukraine, and the West, you say, is going to do nothing.
maajid nawaz
They won't.
tim pool
There is no mutual drive towards... Ukraine is getting flattened in many areas by Russia, and the US should, or these countries should be like, how dare Russia?
We have every reason, because we were trying to win over Ukraine, but they won't do it.
maajid nawaz
Because of mutually assured destruction.
ian crossland
Because they're all conquering countries themselves.
They took Libya, they took Iraq.
tim pool
Russia is able to launch an attack and no one responds.
If they launch a nuke, no one will respond.
That's my point.
maajid nawaz
No, but they won't launch a nuke.
tim pool
Russia did invade.
No one invaded back.
ian crossland
That's because we've been invading.
tim pool
Because Russia knows we fear mutual destruction.
And they don't.
ian crossland
I think that the world's carving up the world right now.
The superpowers are taking.
We took Libya.
We took it.
I mean, that's like an American colony right now or like a puppet state or something.
maajid nawaz
I think you're arguing that that is the doctrine of mutually assured destruction.
tim pool
That someone could launch a nuke and no one will do anything about it?
maajid nawaz
No, that nobody will for that reason.
Nobody will because it makes no sense.
And nobody has.
tim pool
My point is, in any facet of war that involves civilian death, right now Russia has engaged in a campaign which has resulted in civilian death and no one is doing anything about it.
So Vladimir Putin knows if he were to launch strategic, tactical or nuclear artillery, no one will respond.
If the idea was that launching a nuclear weapon assured your own destruction, the US and NATO would go and flatten Russia's forces, at least in Ukraine.
maajid nawaz
That's the bit I'm not getting.
So Russia doesn't need to launch tactical nuclear weapons to do what they're doing in Ukraine because they're already doing it, right?
They would only go to that next level if there was an escalation.
tim pool
Why does mutually shared destruction only apply to one type of warfare?
maajid nawaz
To nuclear warfare.
ian crossland
Oh yeah, it could be a digital war.
maajid nawaz
The nature of the weapon.
tim pool
But what about cyber war infrastructure, destruction of water pipelines?
The U.S.
could use surreptitious methods to wipe out Russia.
They're not doing anything.
ian crossland
That we know of.
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
There's low-scale stuff like the train slowdown or something.
Funding.
unidentified
Funding.
maajid nawaz
Are they funding it?
So I'm not sure a, say for example, let's say you hack the water supply.
I'm not sure it leads to that same the nature of immediate absolute and total destruction of a city is what we're talking of that would lead to that retaliation.
I still think there's that doctrine applies and I can see why it would be a deterrent because of that doctrine and it's held for so long why nobody has launched a nuclear war against anybody else because it would lead to that kind of situation where nobody wins and everyone loses.
tim pool
I think the idea of mutual destruction is born out of a lack of understanding of human behavior in nature.
And I think certainly, you know, the chat is lighting up saying I'm wrong.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, I think you are.
But they don't know about... Because you're assuming human behavior is rational.
tim pool
No, I'm absolutely not.
I'm absolutely not.
maajid nawaz
You're asking why it would make sense not, like, why you're destroying my city would mean I'd have to destroy your city back.
My question is... There's no reason at that point.
tim pool
Why is it that Vladimir Putin can launch an invasion no one responds to?
maajid nawaz
That's the point, right?
He's not launching a nuclear invasion.
tim pool
No, no, no, hold on, hold on.
So this idea, I've not been given a sufficient response as to why only nuclear weapons are the special category of we kill each other.
maajid nawaz
Because it's total destruction.
tim pool
It's not, though.
That's the problem.
Bombing a city does not end the war.
It may have 70 years ago.
But today, when we had January 6th, these protesters thought by occupying a building they would have some impact on government, and that makes literally no sense in a digital age.
We know that through Directive 51, through what used to be the NORAD strategic defense in Denver, we had underground military bunkers.
I think you would be absolutely naive not to believe that we don't have... So you're a country.
maajid nawaz
You're a country.
tim pool
Right.
maajid nawaz
And I decide for whatever reason I've had enough and I launch nuclear weapons.
I'm not going to launch one.
I'm going to launch, whatever, 80 to all of your cities, right?
They're now coming.
What are you going to do?
You're the country.
What do you do?
Nothing.
I've now launched them already.
tim pool
Nothing.
maajid nawaz
Then I win.
I've won, if you don't do anything.
tim pool
Just like Vladimir Putin has already done.
maajid nawaz
No, but he hasn't launched nuclear weapons.
tim pool
I'm not talking about nukes.
That's what MAD is.
maajid nawaz
MAD applies only to nuclear war.
tim pool
So it makes no sense.
maajid nawaz
That's why nobody will do it.
tim pool
Vladimir Putin is of the idea that MAD doesn't exist, which is why he invaded Ukraine and is telling everybody, screw off, I got nukes.
And they all say, we're scared of this, so we'll do nothing.
But if this logic applies, Russia would have been scared of a retaliation they're not scared of, which shows an aggressor can attack and expect no retaliation.
It happens all the time.
maajid nawaz
I know what it is.
I'm not saying you don't know what it is.
I'm saying I'm not sure you're applying it in this context correctly.
When he says, I have nuclear weapons, he's saying, if you declare a war against me, then war by definition is a total war, which means it will become a nuclear war.
That is mad in effect.
That is mad literally being played out, right?
That's the whole point.
The reason why nobody's doing anything is because of the doctrine of mad.
tim pool
It's a question of, will soldiers indiscriminately kill civilians?
I'm of the opinion the answer is mostly no, not always.
So when given the instruction to fire a nuke on a civilian target, explicitly a civilian target, I am of the opinion that people, like in Vietnam, the soldiers were firing over the heads of the Viet Cong, resulting in them getting killed, that most humans are too terrified to actually be the person to murder 10 million people.
Now, there are some people that would.
But this is a big problem, I believe, still persists within human behavior.
When there was a bank robbery.
This is a famous story.
It may be apocryphal, but there's a story, and try to fact check me on this one.
A bunch of guys go into a bank to rob it.
And the security guard stands there and does nothing.
They walk up to him, they point the gun at him, and say, give me your weapon.
And he does.
He was later asked, why didn't you do anything to stop him?
And he says, I didn't know.
I didn't know what was going on.
I didn't know what to do.
It's like well, you're the armed guard who's intention.
They don't want to kill anybody That people don't want to kill anybody. It takes a special
kind of conditioning to be I just I this idea There's no soldier is he but the idea that any person like
a soldier?
I'm imagining an american soldier. I don't believe in world of comic book villains
I don't believe that russian soldiers are all like mustache twirling villains like cobra command
To go to an 18 to 24 year old kid or maybe someone a little bit older who's got the keys to the nuclear
You know command And they're gonna be like I want you to execute 10 million
civilians and for the average human being be like you got it boss
Killing 10 million people right now. I don't think most people would agree to do it
maajid nawaz
No But that's not that the people that do it are the ones that
are trained to do it, right?
tim pool
But the one instance we've had where we came close to it was a story that we talked about the other day with the
nuclear Submarine and the guy on the ship
There's two captains saying we should one guy said no and he stopped them from firing when they what was it?
ian crossland
Yeah, it was three officers, I don't know if they were all captains or whatever, but they thought they had gone and, that the US had destroyers in the area, and they were in a nuclear sub, and there was depth charges going off, and apparently there were practice depth charges, they didn't know, they thought that a shooting war had started, and they were like, we gotta fire Nuclear torpedoes and then the two officers were like yeah,
and then the third guy Alexei I believe is his name said no we need to wait for command
from Moscow before we fire and then eventually they surfaced and they
Communicated with the destroyers and found out there was no war and he basically
They say he prevented World War three in that moment by refusing to fire
tim pool
I think there's some people who would do it, but I think well people did do it in history did do what?
maajid nawaz
Drop a nuke.
tim pool
The United States did.
ian crossland
And we did it because if we did a ground invasion we would have lost more people.
That was the argument.
maajid nawaz
I'm not going into the justice, I'm saying people did it.
That's the point.
So some people are trained to do it.
tim pool
But this is, you know, absolutely I agree.
I just think the idea that we see in movies where all the missiles are flying at each other is just, it's movie beliefs that people just think is true.
They're basing their ideology off of like war games with Matthew Broderick or G.I.
Joe.
maajid nawaz
Well well I mean that's because it won't happen but that's the whole point of the doctrine that it won't happen.
So what you see depicted in movies is what the doctrine says will not happen.
Mutually assured destruction is a doctrine that essentially argues that that scenario you've just depicted that is a very unrealistic scenario will not happen for that reason.
tim pool
So the issue is I see what you're saying.
The problem, I think, especially people in the chat who are saying, one, the idea would be that Russia decides, I'm going to blow up Amsterdam.
Well, why would he?
He would target a military base or an airport first.
The use of a tactical nuclear device, nuclear artillery, gravity bombs or otherwise would be on strategic targets to help them win a conflict.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, so he wouldn't do that, right?
The only time the doctrine kicks in is because the only reason you could conceive of using a nuclear weapon is out of a necessity to defeat the enemy when you have no other option left otherwise it wouldn't make sense and the whole point of the doctrine is that by the time you get to that necessity you realize that it's going to lead to mutually assured destruction so the point of that um resort uh in necessity isn't really it doesn't make the difference but the mutual so so i guess to clarify the mutually assured destruction would be of military and not civilian targets
ian crossland
It's total war is everything.
Because if the civilians are making the steel that is being used, then they're military.
maajid nawaz
I think we've come to something- I think winning or losing the war, right?
tim pool
I think we've come to a development on the idea, which is important.
It's the governments that lose.
The people would end up being mostly fine.
ian crossland
I don't think so.
If you did a full nuclear strike of the U.S., it would be mass migration towards the farms in the middle of the country.
People would be starving and going towards the suburbs, and it would be full chaos.
The economy would be shredded to zero.
No electricity, no water.
maajid nawaz
Yeah, but still, you'd have whatever.
Somebody living in, say, Indonesia would be fine, right?
ian crossland
Hopefully.
maajid nawaz
As in, well, I mean, there'd be a global economic disaster, but they wouldn't be dead.
ian crossland
For all I know, the US would nuke the entire planet in that moment, I don't know.
That'd be insane.
tim pool
I think, you know, so what you're saying is... It's the governments that lose.
The mutually assured destruction is just, we have no choice but to do it if you do, to deter you from doing it in the first place.
maajid nawaz
And that's why I'd argue it hasn't happened and won't happen.
It doesn't make sense for it to happen, and that's what the doctrine states as well.
tim pool
I think we'll see the use of tactical nukes.
People need to understand the... When?
maajid nawaz
Which conflict?
As in, not in this conflict, right?
At some point.
unidentified
Not with Russia in... I think it's possible, but I don't know if it's... No, it won't happen.
tim pool
But I'm not, I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about what I love to cite as, you know, MIRVs.
I'm not talking about, you know, I think it's possible we see, like, kiloton bombs, radioactive nuclear artillery, etc.
maajid nawaz
Look, dirty weapons, biological warfare, that's where we're at these days, right?
One of the reasons I don't think nukes are going to happen is in particular because what you've got is, for a long time, US military leadership has long recognized Russia's strategic national interest in eastern Ukraine on that eastern side of that river that we were speaking about earlier to the point where I posted this video on my feed actually.
Colonel McGregor from the US military was on Fox and he perfectly articulates as a US colonel perfectly articulates what Putin's desire is with eastern Ukraine and then acknowledges that they've been aware of this.
For a long time.
Now, keep in mind, of course, that if you're a serving U.S.
military officer, you don't get to set what U.S.
policy is in, for example, funding as a battalion or whatever.
That's not the military that sets that policy.
But the military being aware of this, it kind of indicates to me, and this has been around for years, this kind of idea that, you know, we can't keep pushing NATO eastwards.
unidentified
U.S.
maajid nawaz
military been making these noises for a long time.
I think, to be honest, we're probably past the peak and the worst, I'd say, of Russia's assault in Ukraine.
tim pool
If we operate under the assumption that mutually assured destruction is correct, that means Russia's going to win and they're going to keep advancing.
maajid nawaz
In Ukraine?
tim pool
They will win in Ukraine, they will take it.
Putin will get exactly what he wants and he'll stop only when he decides.
He'll stop at the river?
Well, I think they're already past the river with Odessa, right?
maajid nawaz
But that's where he'll, for example, when he calls it quits... He splits the country and he'll stop.
Because it's not in his own interest to go any further.
tim pool
Did you see the map that Belarus had that showed an attack into Moldova, Transnistria?
maajid nawaz
Yeah, I've been hearing about that.
tim pool
Belarus showed a map that depicted four attack vectors that have happened, several that haven't.
Some have argued that they haven't happened yet.
I don't know the way of evidence to suggest it's predictive or just speculative, but it does show accurately four attacks from Russia.
ian crossland
Could be fake because they didn't get the enemy to put their troops in the wrong spot.
tim pool
Well, Russia already occupies Transnistria with about a thousand soldiers.
So, if Russia is planning on moving into Moldova, into this disputed territory, to stage troops, that means they're planning a Western assault on Ukraine.
If that's the case... Then maybe they just want Moldova.
ian crossland
Or it could be fake, because if it gets NATO to put troops in Moldova when they're not needed, then it's good.
maajid nawaz
He doesn't need Western Ukraine, he needs Eastern Ukraine.
What he wants in Western Ukraine, as McGregor said in the interview, we can pull it up if you want, it's quite good actually, what he wants in Western Ukraine is a neutral Ukraine as it was pre-2014.
That's all he wants.
And if you understand it, this is where it really winds me up that we've banned Russia today and all these Russian Propaganda channels they are state-owned propaganda channels, but if I'm playing chess with you It helps me to know your strategy if I want to win now Why would I say if you're telling me your strategy?
Why would I silence your voice if I'm playing against you right?
So this is why it makes no sense to silence Russian media you want to understand what they're saying if you're competing against them, but so far what we know is that Comfortably we can say that Putin wants a neutral pre-2014 style neutral Ukraine now because he didn't get that He'll probably be happy with a Western Ukraine that's neutral and an Eastern Ukraine that's under his sphere of influence.
I think, I think that's where he's going to end.
tim pool
We went a little long, but we'll read some Super Chats.
maajid nawaz
Go for it.
tim pool
Yeah.
maajid nawaz
Is that where we were going to be?
ian crossland
I got the guy's name.
It's Vassily Arkhipov is the Russian officer.
tim pool
So we have, Ryan says, Tim is just pissed because the Chile story didn't take, because the Chile story, don't take it out on your guests.
No, I'm not pissed about that.
So someone that might get disabled in the future from a current genetic thing.
is legit. It seeks to prevent discrimination against workers who may develop genetic pathologies
but are not yet disabled. Keep up the good work. Love from Santiago." So that's someone
saying...
ian crossland
So someone that might get disabled in the future from a current genetic thing. They
want to make sure they're protected.
tim pool
So Ghost of Recon says, Tim, the purpose of mutually assured destruction is to ensure
that if a country were to launch a nuclear strike, the destruction would be ensured before
the first nuke lands.
This makes it completely unreasonable and unpalatable to fire nukes in the first place.
My response to that is, I think it's interesting that people are saying, I don't understand human nature when they're making assumptions about what humans would do in a situation that's never happened.
My point is, mutually assured destruction is predicting human behavior on a circumstance that's never happened, with no reason to believe and no evidence to suggest it would.
My belief is that humans are averse to killing, as much as they could be, and it's strange to me that people are adamant something that's never happened would happen, with no evidence to believe it would.
ian crossland
You've seen Alien 2?
Do you remember the guy goes in, the aliens are trying to kill the guy and he pulls out the grenade and blows everybody up?
tim pool
The only thing I've ever seen is that nukes were dropped on Japan and it worked and we won.
maajid nawaz
They didn't have nukes though.
tim pool
But it's not just Japan.
No one else did anything.
No other country said, whoa, they just wiped out hundreds of thousands of civilians.
They said, America wins!
maajid nawaz
To be fair, MAD only applies in the context of both countries having nukes.
tim pool
I'm just saying that that's never happened before.
And so we have no evidence to suggest it would, just speculation.
And what has happened before is we've used devastating nuclear weapons with no retaliation at all in any capacity.
maajid nawaz
The evidence we do have in terms of human nature is that what we do know is that human behavior isn't always rational and that revenge is a powerful emotion.
And that if you shot at me, I know that a human reaction is to shoot back.
Now, whether that's not been done with nukes before, we don't need that to conclude that if you... arms races happen, right?
So if you escalate an arms race, I escalate back from emotion.
We know that happens.
So there is some evidence to indicate that it would escalate.
And that's the evidence based on existing human behavior with what happens in retaliation and revenge.
ian crossland
And Seamus brought up an interesting point, like, can you let that person win?
If there's, like, a dictatorship that launched nukes at your country, you can't let them... If you're... Okay, maybe you're just gonna let yourself get wiped out, but, like, are you gonna let them control the planet now?
And that emotion can be crazy.
tim pool
It's a question remarkably complicated that I think I'm just surprised people are so definitive on.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
I mean, martyrdom in the Iranian... You're right, though.
In the Iranian context, the ideological motive is also worth considering.
Martyrdom as a concept, insert there as well.
tim pool
We have this from Dan Pitt.
He says, Tim, bro, like I said yesterday, if nukes were launched at the U.S., a retaliatory strike would be launched with no hesitation.
I was on submarines.
Trust me, the birds would fly.
The issue is people seem to have a very American perspective on how the response would be.
I'm talking about if Russia nuked any country on the planet.
Do you think if Russia nuked, you know, Sri Lanka, there would be a retaliatory strike?
maajid nawaz
Sri Lanka doesn't have nukes, but say Pakistan, right?
ian crossland
And India.
maajid nawaz
They'd destroy each other.
So they would destroy each other.
I can guarantee you that Pakistan... But there's ideology there.
tim pool
Yeah, that's the point.
maajid nawaz
But most nuclear powers have ideology.
tim pool
So I think the, I don't believe the U.S.
is, I think it's governed more by, I think this country has lost ideology for sure.
I think we're fractured and we're driven more by conquest and power of corporate elites and neolibs and neocons.
But I digress.
I think the issue is people who have nukes don't have the same ideologies.
They don't have the same beliefs.
They don't have the same intentions.
The U.S.
certainly might do this.
A lot of people seem to have an American perspective.
Yes, we will nuke you, don't you dare!
But what about other countries?
Would they do the same thing?
I don't believe there's a uniform response to this.
And the only evidence I've seen is that after the U.S.
dropped nukes, certainly other countries would have reason to declare war on the United States for such an egregious action.
Certainly, I mean, I suppose bombing two major cities in Japan, they just said, we give up, you know?
maajid nawaz
Yeah, I mean, look, you've got to consider why Iran's chasing nukes at the moment.
I think people, nations, consider it as a leveler.
tim pool
Yeah.
maajid nawaz
And that's because they're subscribing to mutually assured destruction as a doctrine.
The reason Iran wants nukes is it knows it cannot defeat Israel in conventional military terms and wants to therefore level up with Israel.
And the only way it can do that is through nuclear weapons.
ian crossland
I wonder if this is like an Islamic allegory because I was trying to get into Islam and understand it and what it looked like is Muhammad was teaching them like peace at all costs unless you're backed into a corner and you have no choice then you fight like hell and so the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan put these people in the corner and now they're like well jihad or whatever you want to call it but and so that's kind of the mutually assured destruction thing like if you're gonna attack me and put me in a corner By faith dictates that I do this.
maajid nawaz
Well, I mean that's why I mentioned martyrdom.
If you've got a psychology in a nation that would prefer death over defeat, I would argue that's why nukes were dropped on Japan, because they wouldn't surrender.
Because the mindset prior to the end of that war In the Japanese imperial mindset, was very much, if you think in terms of samurai, dignity, honor, warrior mindset, was very much, that's why they would fall on their sword, which is where that idea comes from.
That they would prefer taking their own lives than defeat on the battlefield.
Now in the Muslim version of that, it's martyrdom over defeat.
So where you prefer death to defeat, that could be the Japanese version of falling on your own sword.
In the Islamic version of that, You wouldn't just kill yourself, you'd want to take out as many of the enemy with you as possible before you die, because you believe there's something after that.
So it's not irrational within the internal logic of that mindset.
You think you're taking out as many of your enemy as possible, and then you end up in some eternal paradise.
So you're not actually dying, you're going to an eternal life, and you've also killed the enemy in the process.
ian crossland
Yeah, there is something glorious about a hero that sacrifices him or herself to destroy the enemy.
maajid nawaz
But that's very, the important point I'm making here is it's very real for the person that believes that.
It's real.
It's more real for the person that believes it than any form of real is for somebody that doesn't believe anything.
Like it's hard to explain that mindset.
It's a hundred percent conviction that this is what's going to happen and it's done willingly and with honor and then is celebrated.
ian crossland
I would love to talk about that on the after show.
unidentified
Maybe.
tim pool
Well, so, so yeah, we have, uh, you know, I think we've, we, we might be getting a little
circular on the mad stuff and a lot of the super chats are just making similar points
and kind of just joining the argument.
So I don't want to just rehash all the same stuff.
But, uh, other than that, we have a bunch of people pointing out that the Chile story
is correct, but it's, it's poorly framed.
That the story in Chile was about non-discrimination for people with genetic disorders, like I'd assumed, and that we needlessly included information.
The original source was Daily Expose.
So, uh, let me see.
This is, uh, Marco Antonio Aravena says, Chilean here, alterations in this context means issue or problem.
If we were talking about modification, we'll be talking about gene therapy also is a work law against discrimination.
So it appears to be true, but when you translate it, it doesn't translate properly without someone from Chile explaining to you.
maajid nawaz
There was no need to connection to vaccinations in the article, if that's the case.
tim pool
And that's what the daily expose had done.
maajid nawaz
Yeah.
tim pool
They had said, you know, they'd linked them and we, we certainly should have done that.
But I've been explicit with the crew before.
Don't combine stories.
Because it's like nebulous connections.
Well, so here's what we're going to do.
We argued a bit too much and I don't want to go too late.
So we're going to go to the members-only discussion.
So head over to TimCast.com and become a member if you want to support our work.
If you appreciate the fact-checking and real-time corrections and scrutiny we have for even our own work, and you want to help support our journalists as we continue to do better and get it right, please become a member.
But also, we're going to record that members-only segment.
It'll be up around 11 or so p.m., so you don't want to miss it.
It's going to be fun.
I really appreciate your guys' support.
Everybody's helping make it possible.
You can follow the show at TimCast IRL.
You can follow me at TimCast Magic.
Do you want to shout anything out, your show, your socials?
maajid nawaz
Just watch out for Odyssey spelled O-D-Y-S-E-E.
Watch out for my new show that's going to appear on there.
Give it a couple of weeks to a month until we get ready.
Meanwhile, you can find me on Substack.
You can find me on Twitter and Getter at Majid Nawaz.
tim pool
Right on.
Seamus.
ian crossland
What's up, homie?
seamus coughlin
I am Seamus Coghlan.
Love doctor.
The love doctor Coghlan.
Those are my credentials.
Trust the science.
Believe me on these issues.
I run a YouTube channel called Freedom Tunes.
We do cartoons.
We release a new one every single Thursday, which means we're going to have one out tomorrow about Obama's... I'm sorry, Biden's.
What's wrong with me now?
I'm not... Oh, Biden?
The gaps are contagious.
We're going to be releasing a cartoon tomorrow on Biden's State of the Union.
I think you guys will enjoy it.
ian crossland
I am Ian Crossland.
I'm looking forward to seeing you guys again.
You can follow me at iancrossland.net.
And if you want to see our multi-video camera thing at some point in the future, give me a solid 100 in the chat.
Catch you later.
lydia smith
Nice.
I was going to say that Chilean law actually does sound like a real thing because I have like a genetic disorder that somebody could technically fire me for.
So I'm kind of glad that it's a thing.
Really curious where it's coming from, whether it's the WEF or something and probably not vaccines.
But anyway, I digress now.
You guys can follow me on Twitter and Minds.com at Sour Patch Lids.
tim pool
We will see all of you over at TimCast.com in that special members-only segment.
We are going to discuss religion and spirituality.
It should be a lot of fun.
And maybe we'll solve all the world's problems.
Thanks for hanging out.
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