March 2, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:58:45
5424 2,500 Beatings! Freedomain Call In
"My wife and I have two children. We're expecting our third. We want to have as many as we can. We're both in our 20s, and I want to make sure I'm doing as much as I can to correctly raise them peacefully and also not mess them up. My childhood was pretty good, but that's the main thing, as far as peaceful ways of disciplining them if they're just blatantly disobedient."Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!Get my new series on the Truth About the French Revolution, access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and more!See you soon!https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
We're both in our mid, uh, well, she's in her mid twenties.
I'm in my late twenties.
And I want to make sure I'm doing as much as I can to correctly raise them peacefully and also not mess them up.
My childhood was pretty good, but that's the main thing as far as like peaceful ways of disciplining them if they're just blatantly disobedient.
And so yeah, that's it.
That's the main thing.
And I can go into specific scenarios if you'd like that I've experienced with them.
Yeah.
Sorry, how old are your kids?
About three and one and a half.
So pretty young.
Okay.
Um, I'm sorry.
I don't mean to be, uh, I don't mean to be like three and one and a half.
And you're talking about what disobedience.
Yeah.
Like they, they both, especially the three-year-old, he understands like, Hey, come over here, buddy, or put that down.
Or, you know, you know, we got to go do this or we can't buy that.
And just refusing, you know, he knows what I'm saying.
And so that, that's, that's, that's, that's the main example I would give.
Okay.
Uh, let's, uh, talk about, I guess, some specific instances and we'll see if we can throw the old peaceful parenting ball down the alley.
Okay, sure.
So the other day, um, we were getting ready to go somewhere and, uh, he opened the, we had the front door open, but our screen door was shut, but he knows how to open it.
So he opened it and ran outside with his socks on and I said, wait, no, come back.
Uh, you're, you're, we don't have your shoes on yet.
And he kept running.
I said, wait, stop, you gotta come.
And he looked at me and then he turned around and just kept running around the driveway.
And so I just picked him up and took him inside.
Um, that's, that's one example.
Um, you know, he stopped, he looked at me, he heard me, and then he just kept disobeying.
Right.
Okay.
Got it.
So what's the problem with him?
It was it because he was in his socks.
I mean, is it dangerous?
What's the, what's the story?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it was, it had rained and it was wet outside, so I didn't want him to go outside without his socks on.
And also he could step on a rock or something.
I'm not trying to be like a hyper mom.
Sorry, sorry.
Step outside with his socks or without his socks?
Yeah.
With, with his socks on, but without his shoes on.
He might step on a rock?
Like through the grass and then on the, yeah, well it's through the grass.
So his socks, we'd have to replace his socks because otherwise they'd be wet because it had rained prior.
And, uh, you know, and, or on, uh, I mean, we have like a rock bed in front of our house.
Like, uh, step on that.
And so, uh, let's just sort of play this out.
So if he goes outside, uh, yeah, his socks, his socks will get muddy, right?
Sure.
And what's the problem with that?
I mean, I get, you don't want that to happen every 10 minutes or whatever, but if socks get muddy, wouldn't you just change your socks?
Sure.
We were about to go and all we had to do really was put his shoes on and, uh, I mean, get his brother's shoes on.
When, uh, he just ran outside ahead of us.
And we also, I guess more important than just that is, I mean, just going outside alone.
We've told them, you know, you had to go outside with mommy or daddy or, you know, or the babysitter don't don't.
And we try to keep the front door locked, but he he's big enough now where he knows how to open it, even when it's locked.
Um, so.
I'm sorry.
Sorry.
Hang on.
So you just took me on a real journey here.
I just want to make sure I stayed with the specifics before we get to it.
For sure.
So, uh, let's say he goes outside and he gets his socks muddy.
Uh, you grab a new pair of socks and, and then you just change him wherever you're going or like you could change him someplace or, you know, like kids get muddy, right?
That's, that's just a reality.
Especially boys, right?
So that's just kind of, that's built into the equation of being a parent to a little boy in particular as he's going to get muddy.
So, uh, as far as stepping on rocks go, I mean, isn't that how kids learn?
This is true, yes.
When you were little, do you remember doing risky things?
Yes.
And do you think that you would be better off if you had never been allowed to do risky things as a little boy?
I'm trying to think of specifics I've done.
I get your point, and I agree it's better to let them do the risky things so they can learn, especially when the stakes are low.
And I'm not sure if this is relevant.
As a child, I don't think I was particularly risky or very adventurous in a dangerous way, but I know that's a boyish trait, and he definitely has it way more than I did as a child.
Look, we're talking about stepping on, potentially, on some rocks, right?
I mean, this isn't skydiving, right?
Sure.
Right, okay, so the negative consequences of him going outside were pretty small.
Like he wasn't running around in a parking lot or near a road or near a cliff edge.
The negative consequences were pretty small, right?
Yes, I will say that we do live near a road and that was the other half of it is
Him going outside by himself, we've told him not to do because it is dangerous.
Uh, do you not have a fence between you and the road?
Unfortunately, no.
And we were, we were, we were going to build one, but we are going to be moving because our house is really small.
And so we were just, we didn't want to invest in, you know, a $50,000 fence and then move six months later.
A what?
$50,000 for a fence?
How big is this property?
Are you Texas?
It's about an acre and a half and to fence the whole thing in with metal versus like the plastic pipes would be, it would be upwards of 30,000.
Okay.
So it's like a whole side of the acre and a half is roadway?
Yeah.
So our front door goes out right off a side road that's extremely close to a main road.
And so within, you know,
40 steps, he would be on a road that has probably a thousand cars that go by it a day.
Got it.
Okay.
I mean, that obviously is very serious stuff and I understand that.
Okay.
Sure.
Sure.
So I guess more like just the, I'm sorry, I know I'm going to talk over you.
Um, but just the, I've, I've expressed to him not to go outside.
I explained why not just, Hey, this is because I said, so like, Hey, there's cars, it's dangerous.
They can't see you.
Sometimes they could hit you and you could get hurt.
And so don't go outside without a
And then, you know, he still runs outside.
And I get he's excited, he's a little boy and all that, but I don't know how to handle situations like that.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
So, so the first, one of the first principles of peaceful parenting is it's all about prevention, not cure.
Right?
So, uh, who is responsible for your child not being able to open a front door that could lead to traffic?
Me.
Right.
So you say, well, he's big, he's big enough to undo the lock.
Is that right?
Yeah, since then, we've got a latch, like, really high up, so we solve that issue.
Assuming that we keep the door closed, which is all still, again, on me and my wife.
Okay, so, if you think that your kids are disobeying when you have failed to keep them safe, I think that's the wrong mindset, if that makes sense?
That's not a failure on the part of your three-year-old, who is a three-year-old, right?
Yes.
And so he's going to be impulsive.
His brain is like barely bigger than a tadpole at this point.
And certainly, you know, there's no neofrontal cortex, highest section of reasoning and so on, right?
This is the age where kids will eat chocolate till they throw up, right?
So, prevention is, you know, I mean, to take a silly example, if, you know, when my daughter was three months old, if I lectured her not to go near any stairs, that wouldn't make any sense, right?
Sure.
I would have to make sure I had a gate so she couldn't go down the stairs, right?
So would you suggest then just creating an environment where dangerous, like disobedience like that is more difficult so we don't get in that situation?
No, no, hang on.
What I would say is that even the concept of disobedience for a three-year-old is odd.
I mean, he's three, right?
He, I mean, the concept of obedience and disobedience
Is, I think, premature for three-year-olds.
Right?
Because here's the problem.
If you classify it as disobedience, you're going to get angry.
Because what you're gonna do, and I was really struck by the way you put it here, and I say this with all sympathy, right, it's not some big judgement thing, but you said, like, he looked at me, and you see the machinery turning in his brain, right?
Which is, to heck with that, I'm bailing, I'm out, right?
I'm going!
Right, right, right, right.
So, uh, peace out, right?
So you can see him evaluating, right?
And all he's doing is he's evaluating, at that age, he's evaluating positive and negative consequences.
Okay.
Right?
He's like, well, I really want to go outside.
Dad's not going to get too mad, so I'm out, right?
And the problem is then, if you say, generally, if you say, well he can't go outside, he has to obey me, and deep down you kind of get that it's not an obedience, disobedience thing, but it's more like consequences, then you'll say, well now I have to apply negative consequences, i.e.
punishment, in order to shift the equation to him doing what I want.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
And I think that's not a great mind, it's certainly not a mindset to get into with regards to peaceful parenting, right?
So, rather than obedience-disobedience...
It is my job to limit his choices to those that are mostly safe, not all safe all the time.
Yeah.
But it's my job to limit his choices to that which is, you know, if you put a three-year-old in front of a buffet full of celery sticks and M&M's, right?
What's he gonna do?
M&M's, he can't bite.
Yeah, are you gonna sit there and say, no, no, no, daddy really wants you to do the celery sticks!
And he's just going to be like, he's going to wait till your back is turned, right?
What's he going to do?
He's going to faceplant into the M&Ms, right?
Yes.
So you got to limit the buffet of his choices to that which is acceptable to you.
Okay.
So if, if you, if he has the opportunity to go outside, he'll take it if that's what he wants to do.
And it's your job, I think, as a parent to try and limit his choices to that which is
Uh, safe enough, like not perfectly safe, because perfectly safe is dangerous just in another way.
But so, so yeah, you just have to plan for the environment, right?
You know, like it's the old thing that if you have a coffee table with death shop corners and you say, you know, don't run around the coffee table, it's like, guess what?
They're going to run around the coffee table because they're kids, right?
So you have to take the coffee table and regretfully, sadly put it in storage until they get older, right?
Or put those bumpers on it.
Yeah, something like that, right?
So, generally, if the child can choose something that is dangerous, it's the parent's job.
Like, you know, you turn the handles on the pots of boiling water, you turn the handles away so the kids can't grab them, right?
Rather than just screaming at them.
I'm not saying you would scream, but, you know, there's a panic if they start.
I'm sorry, do you think that to me the only appropriate time to yell is in an emergency situation?
near a road let's say we're walking and he runs ahead of me and there's a car I yell stop no like is that would you agree that's the only acceptable time in like an emergency to to well sure anger at least in that content like obviously whatever you have to do to keep your kid from running into traffic you do but you have to recognize that as a failure on the part of the parent yes to be in that situation in the first place so you guys didn't get a latch
And your kid knows how to open the latch.
So, yeah, I mean, sure, I guess you can yell, stop!
Absolutely.
But even being that, that's, that's not a problem with your kid.
That's a problem with parents getting into that situation.
So it's not disobedience on the part of the kid, right?
Any more than it's a big problem.
If you put celery and M&Ms out and your kid eats all the M&Ms, it's like, well, of course he does.
Because he's a kid, right?
I mean, I'm an adult, I'll still sometimes make bad food choices, right?
So, it really is, you've got to limit the buffet to what is good for your kids, if that makes sense.
Yes.
What about, here's another example, you know, his one and a half year old brother, he's, him and obviously the older brother play a lot, they interact a lot, and there'll be situations, and maybe it's
I don't think it's quite every day, but my wife is with them more than I am.
You know, I work and she stays at home with them mostly.
And that the older one will push the new little one down or take his toy or sometimes even like slap him in the face or something like that.
How do you deal with situations like that?
Well, I mean, that's a big question.
I'm sorry, I stopped and then I interrupted you, but they'll be seemingly playing along well and everything's going nice.
And then suddenly the older one will either take his toy or just push him over for fun or get frustrated with the little one, or maybe the little one tries to take the big one's toy and the big one slaps him in the face.
So in that situation, what do you think?
Well, I mean, my first question, and I mean, they're little boys, so they're both boys, right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
So they're little boys.
Look, I'm afraid there's just going to be some Simian aggression at that age.
That's just, that's the thing, right?
You did it, I did it, like everybody did it.
So, but my first question would be, have they seen or experienced, or how much have they seen or experienced any form of aggression in their environment?
I'm thinking here i'm being honest even though it's it's you know, it's shameful I have Maybe three different times lashed out at the oldest one by like pinching him And i'm trying to even think of the scenario, um one of the times And this is again a totally a failure on my part But the child lock was not functioning properly and i'm on the interstate and my oldest
One who's three again starts opening the door realizes he can open the door and I kept telling him stop stop So and then I raised my voice he didn't do it.
And so then I pinched his leg like I reached around and pinched his leg um, that was one instance where I used violence and I I've spanked him once
Over the last three years, uh, I think I've spanked him twice.
I can't even remember the situation where I did.
And at both times... Wait, what do you mean you can't remember?
You can't remember the situation?
No, I, I, I, I really am trying to remember why, like, I was angry about something, him being disobedient, and I can't even remember.
That shows you how trivial it was.
Um, uh, and so again, I'm, I, it's shameful to admit that, but that, that did occur, um, on three different occasions that I can remember it occurring, but I, I don't, I don't recall the specifics of why I even did it.
Okay.
And listen, we'll bookmark this with the one exception that I would ask the question.
So you're driving and the child locks aren't working or they're not set or something like that.
Is that right?
Correct.
Okay.
So, uh, and you're on the interstate, uh, I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't pull over to the shoulder or exit or, or like fix the problem that way.
You're correct.
I should have just pulled over immediately.
And I, and I did like, I did shortly after that.
Yeah, because pinching could have gone the other way.
He could have been like, I'm out, right?
Sure, sure.
No, that was incredibly irresponsible of me.
Well, listen, I hugely appreciate that you're calling and I hugely appreciate your commitment.
So, there's nothing negative in anything I'm going to say here, obviously, right?
So, I'm not trying to put you in the wrong or make you feel bad or anything, like I'm genuinely thrilled to be having this conversation.
So, let's just go back a little bit.
You said your childhood was pretty good, and of course I'm perfectly happy to accept that.
But tell me a little bit about how you were disciplined as a kid.
Very horribly.
Wait, wait, you just told me you had a pretty good childhood!
Well, okay.
In terms of, in terms of spanking, it was bad.
Um, I did the, uh.
Oh, you mean except for the violence and assaults.
It was great.
Yeah.
No, it's a great marriage, except for me beating up my wife.
Yeah.
It's wonderful.
Good, good points.
Um, uh, and, and I mean, I can go into like a 30 second summary or a two minute or whatever you would like me.
I'm never shy for more detail.
Okay.
Sure.
So.
When I say good, my parents, my mom read to me a lot.
They were very sweet.
I grew up in the country on a farm.
I was homeschooled.
We took road trips quite a bit.
My dad was present.
My parents were married.
I had four siblings.
But I was spanked.
And it bothered me a lot.
And it still bothers me.
And I don't even know to the extent of it, but I remember one time where I was still in diapers.
I was so little and my dad was upset with me.
And I don't, I don't even remember why, again, why he was upset with me, but he said he was going to beat me with a belt and he took me in the bathroom and he beat me and I was so happy because I had a diaper on and so it didn't hurt as bad.
He didn't realize I had a diaper on.
He would have probably made me take it off.
And so, uh,
You're really trying to hang on, brother.
I'm sure you've listened to these call-in shows before, right?
Sure.
And I'm sure you've heard the following statement from me, like, why are you trying to draw me into laughter land about beating a kid, a baby really, or a toddler in a diaper with a belt?
Like you're kind of laughing about it, right?
Like you're trying to invite me into this goofy comedy world of where you attack children this way.
I do this whenever I'm upset, or in a difficult situation, and I don't know how to... If there's a way to overcome this, because this is definitely a limitation of my communication ability, then I would love to, but this is something that happens... I mean, look, it's a fundamental question, and again, no criticism, it's a fundamental question of, can you really have more empathy for your kids than you do for yourself as a child?
Can you have more empathy for your kids than you did for yourself as a child?
Than you do, currently, for yourself as a child.
Like, for instance, for instance, I'm sure you've got a fine babysitter, but if you came home and your babysitter was beating one of your children with a belt, your youngest, a year and a half, right, was hitting your youngest sibling, sorry, if your babysitter was hitting your youngest child with a belt, would you be laughing about it as you told the story?
No.
Well, I mean, I'm a philosopher, a universalist guy, right?
So why is your youngest child worthy of protection and outrage at being assaulted?
And for you, it's funny.
When you're the same age and that's what happened to you.
And this also may be the wrong mindset, but in general, I try to be more difficult on myself than I am on others.
And so.
No, no, this is, we can talk about that too, but this is opposite.
This is, it's appalling.
If I find a babysitter beating my one and a half year old kid, but it's funny for me.
Like this, isn't just being more hard on you.
This is like opposite land.
Yes.
Well, I can't, there's no scenario I can think of where I wouldn't be enraged and intervene immediately.
Or if I was retelling it, I would not be laughing about it.
Right.
And, of course, you'd fire the babysitter.
You might even press charges.
Like, who knows, right?
Sure.
Well, it's unfortunately legal in America, as you know, to hit children.
I don't know if you're allowed to hit babies with belts.
Oh, all right.
Well, I don't know about that.
I wonder if it's legal when I was a child.
That's probably a border.
It's probably an edge case, to put it mildly.
Okay.
All right.
So,
Why is it terrible to happen to your little boy?
Yeah, go ahead.
So I have, cause I have listened, like I've listened to more of your, your, your content, whether it's, you know, videos or listening sometimes than any other thing I can even think of.
And I, I truly appreciate you've been tremendously influential and helpful in, in, you know, demystifying things that should be simple, but you know, society tries to, uh, um, with
Their softest treat, a bus cake.
So, uh, well, I have even approached my parents, specifically my dad.
There's been a couple instances.
I remember my mom and I know people are easier on women, which I really dislike the double standard, but I definitely do remember my dad doing that type of behavior to me more often.
And I remember I approached him, this was maybe a couple of years ago about specifically the one I told you about him beating me when I was in a diaper.
And he looks at me and he kind of chuckles and says, that didn't happen.
You just made that up.
I would never do that.
And I said, I, this is, I remember this vividly.
I remember, I even remember the room of the house we were in and both sits, you know, where I was at and then where he took me to in the bathroom.
He goes, no, that didn't happen.
You made that up.
And it's, it's very, it makes me angry at my dad as well.
And it's, I, I'm just, I'm thinking out loud at this point.
That's what I wanted to say.
And does he remember any of the, I mean, so let's get to the prevalence of spanking.
How often did it happen when you were young?
I mean, I don't know if this is my brain blocking out or what, but I think it was, it was a pretty frequent occurrence, like multiple times a week.
Holy crap.
And, and obviously from very young, when you were a baby until when did it taper off?
When you hit puberty?
Uh, probably, yes.
Yeah, so of course when you got big enough to fight back, magically he finds other solutions than hitting you, right?
Hello, can you hear me?
Yeah, there we go.
Alright, I don't know what happened.
I apologize.
That's fine.
Yeah, well, can I say one other...
Uh, you don't have to ask me, you know, I'm not your dad.
You don't have to ask me.
Just tell me.
Well, thanks.
Appreciate it.
All right.
Well, there's one other, and I, I have, I've literally never told a single other person about this.
Cause my mother told me not to tell anybody when this happened, but, uh, it was very traumatizing and yeah, I'd like to share it.
The one time my mother and I were building a chicken pen, uh, you know, we had a staple gun, we were stapling up like
Uh, the mesh wire around, uh, enclosure for the chickens.
And we were, I was like 10, we were arguing about something.
And I think I said something to her that obviously upset her and I started walking away and she threw the, the, the staple gun at my head and it didn't go off, but it hit my head and my head was bleeding.
And, you know, I put a bandage on my head and then, yeah, and that did happen as well.
I've remembered that, obviously, ever since then, and it has bothered me.
What did your mother say at this point of the incident?
After it happened, like, almost immediately, she was apologetic and, again, asked me not to tell anyone.
Hmm.
So she was apologetic.
Uh, did your mother use any other forms of aggression against you when you were a kid?
Well, she also spanked me.
And your father spanked you a couple of times a week.
What about your mom?
Probably once a week.
And she was with me way more often.
So, but also part of it is as these memories are coming back,
If both my parents were around, my mother would tell my dad to spank me as well.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
No, I get that.
That's quite common.
You know, there was even a show when I was a kid called Wait Till Your Father Gets Home.
It was animated.
Gosh, that's, um... I guess, you know, it's really analogous of the women using the state to... Oh, yeah, yeah, that's very true.
That's very true.
All right, so I'm just gonna do a little math here, right?
So, spank four times a week times 52 weeks, so that's 208.
We're good to go!
Bare buttocks?
Hands?
Implements?
What happened?
Belt.
Almost always a belt.
Belt?
On bare skin or trousers?
Pants, sorry.
Well, both.
Mostly it was with my pants on, but it was very painful.
Wow, I'm... I'm so sorry.
I mean, you had it worse than me in many ways.
Like, you really had it.
Oh, it's tough.
It's... I'm really sorry.
I just don't know how to handle it.
I wish my parents, when I talk to them about this, would just say they were sorry they did it so I could forgive them.
But it's hard to forgive them when they're not even sorry it happened.
So what happens when you do talk to them about this just appalling stuff?
They just downplay it or act like it didn't happen.
Or it's a good thing.
Oh, the Bible says to do it, you know, and I'll tell them it's not what the verse says.
It says, I mean, the rod of discipline, not the physical beating.
The rod is instruction.
Yeah.
It's teaching moral instruction.
It's not beating.
Yeah.
That's what they, that's what they either justify it or, or just act like it wasn't a big deal.
It didn't happen at all.
I'm so sorry.
Like my heart goes out to you, brother.
It's, it's absolutely appalling and absolutely
Anti-Christian.
I mean, Jesus said, whatever you do to the least among you, you do unto me.
And whoever harms the children, it's better that a millstone be put around his neck.
And it's like he had the death penalty for child harming.
And then these Christian apologists say that somehow Jesus says, beat your kids.
It's terrible.
There's another verse they bring up.
I don't know if it's in Proverbs, but it'll say,
It says something to the effect of, oh, if you beat them with the rod, it will not kill them.
And so they'll say, well, no, see, it does mean an actual physical stick, not just the rod of discipline.
Yes, it is true that beating doesn't kill children.
I don't know how that means that beating is recommended.
Yeah, if you beat the child, he will not die.
Traumatizing thing that in this again I'm gonna try to say this without just crying again, but I don't care about the tears.
Honestly, that's totally fine with me.
Don't don't feel bad about that.
This is this is there's something to cry about it's this Well, no, I guess, you know, no one else was there to protect me or cry for me so it's coming out now but the other thing that
Really bothers me just tremendously.
It still affects me in adulthood is I was, I was genetically mutilated.
I was circumcised as a child and it has, it has physically, like I have, I don't have a ton of sensitivity.
And I mean, I just assume it's because of being circumcised and
I've even gotten my dad to watch part of your Truth About Circumcision video, and you were the catalyst for changing my mind on that, because I guess of Stockholm Syndrome, you know, I believe, like, oh, it's cleaner or all this other nonsense, even if it's not required anymore, it's still good to do.
And thank God, thank God, I woke up to that, you know, over a decade ago.
I mean, it may be whenever you came up with that video.
And so both of my kids are fully intact.
And but I was
I was circumcised and I've, I've told my parents, even my mom as well, that's how much it bothers me.
And I've told them even the, really my dad, I don't think I've told my mother just cause it's, it's also kind of embarrassing, but I physically don't have a ton of sensitivity because of that.
So, you know, it impairs, uh, you know, normal sexual function and they literally will just laugh about it.
And I've, my brother as well, who, who will not like, I've tried to get to watch the video and all that.
He won't do it.
Um, he'll break it.
Like we'll have family gatherings, like Thanksgiving or some birthday and he'll bring it up and just make a joke about it.
And it's just so hurtful.
I just, I don't know.
No, I'm really sorry for that too.
With regards to the sexual functioning, is it like.
Lower sensation, erectile dysfunction, inability to orgasm.
I mean, is it stuff like that, or?
Yes, it's lower sensation and inability to orgasm, frequently.
I've been told, oh, you know, this is taking too long, essentially, like the opposite problem, I guess, of most guys, because
Yeah, I've been told, you're too big and you last too long, which is not a bad thing, I guess, you know, for a guy to hear, but again, it's lack of sensitivity.
I am sorry.
I am sorry.
I mean, I've obviously talked to a number of men over the years where the circumcision has gone quite awry, and I mean, at least she didn't have that kind of physical damage, but that is very tough.
That is very tough.
What is your relationship like with your parents at the moment?
It's, it's, it's interesting.
So I used to be in the same business.
My father got me into his business, which is a form of sales.
And I was, it was, I was very good at that.
Uh, I was the number one salesman in this, in this, for this one major company in the country.
So that was cool.
And we worked together.
Uh, but I just.
I used to say he was the only person ever that could really make me upset Because yeah, and maybe it's just I don't know from the relationship We had when I was a child, but he would just get me so angry and i'm really not an angry person Generally, like I almost never I can't think of the last time I raised my voice except when it was an emergency Well, no, I did like four years ago once with my wife um, but but any of the four years ago the last time I raised my voice except for some type of like emergency situation and but he would just make me so
Upset and uh, he would just talk down to me and just mock me and just Like he would mimic the way I talk or he'd mock my laugh or he'd just do stuff like that It would really hurt be hurtful And again, maybe that's silly Uh, it should not be just not awfully Okay.
Oh
so, uh And the other thing was my oldest brother.
I'm really close to him now.
This is a brother I would you know mock the whole circumcision thing but other than that other than that like that's like a big thing like but but we're pretty close now and uh, uh But but anyhow, I mean back to my parents, uh, I went into a different industry as an adult and I just went off and I just could not work with him anymore because it just it was so it just made me so upset
And uh, my mother part of the when I work with my dad, uh, He got me into this business, but he really The the business agreement that we had I mean i'm 18 I get into this was he would get half of everything every sale I made which is actually really uncommon in this industry typically In in situations like he would get like 15, but he was getting 50
Which, I mean, I'm just making that point.
I thought, when I learned that... Just so you know, when I was in the software business world, the most highly complex sales would max out at 40%.
Okay.
Alright, well...
Okay, well in this was an insurance and like if you have an upline that that helps you and you usually it's like 15 And then he was taking 50 which again I didn't even after I figured out well, this is kind of a sucky deal I didn't really say too much because I like the idea I'm helping my family and I'm working with them and everything else and I remember I'm pretty I'm I'm I'm kind of a workaholic in a lot of ways and I'll even resist like
Going home after five, uh because I feel like I have the obligation to keep working even and this is even nowadays Um, and I remember another uh, uh Yeah when I was working with my dad But one time I was really sick And we had a we had a home office Uh in my parents home.
I still live with my parents.
I was maybe 19 or 20 at the time And uh, I had I had like the flu or something i'm laying on the couch
Just in really bad pain and my mom comes in and I was even in my work clothes because I was still trying to muscle through it I just couldn't handle it.
I laid down it was like 10 10 in the morning.
My mom comes in and says, uh What are you doing?
You're Right now there's there's a field here that's ready to be harvested and you're just laying there What are you doing?
uh, and and so I got up and I went out to to sell more and so Yeah
Partially because of all of that.
And also, I wanted to get into this other industry, which is real estate.
And so, I started doing that on the side.
And then as it got more, I just stopped doing insurance altogether.
And all this was because you asked me my relationship with them currently.
So, about 4 years ago, I actually got them into real estate.
Maybe 3 years ago.
It was 2020.
So, about 3 years ago.
And they were
They had no money at all and I got them into it now they're doing really well and so I talk with my mother maybe every day about business things and I live not too far from my parents.
They only live about maybe 10 minutes away and my wife is from Poland and I don't and so her family's all over in Poland and I don't have any other family within like an hour of where I live.
So I'll often, like, my kids love their, you know, their grandparents, and so they'll ask to see them or talk to them, and so I'll try to set stuff up like that for them to see them, and they just never want to do it.
They're like, no, we're too busy.
We have jobs.
No, we can't do that.
Even on the weekends, no, I'm tired.
I've got some other stuff I want to do.
So i feel like i try to put in effort and maybe i should maybe and i've got to that point where i'm contacting them less other than with work with my mother i refuse to talk to my dad about anything work related.
And so sorry you refused to talk to your dad about what anything work related okay got it yeah cuz it's.
Uh, he just, he will just get angry and demean me.
And he'll act like, like literally right after I got them into real estate, we bought a couple of properties together and we had, you know, obviously it's like any business things come up and you have to address them.
And so I'm saying, okay, yeah, we got to do this and this.
And you know, my dad's like, no, no, that's stupid.
We're going to do this way.
So what are you talking about?
So I've been doing this for seven years and you've never, you've not done this at all.
This is how we have, no, no, we have to do it this way.
And literally, okay.
This one person quit when i was about to fire who's managing some properties behind my back he goes and begs him to come back.
And so they come back and then i'm sorry that i'm sorry are you sharing the business.
Yes good i had purchased i got them into real estate by birth purchasing properties with them with my mother jointly not even my father's not even on the beat.
But my father would say we try to get involved in how it's going to be managed and everything else and it's so sorry you're basically in business with your parents.
Yes yes well with my mother is again i won't i won't even talk my father about i mean she may talk to him but i don't even discuss anything business with him anymore i refuse to do it.
Okay.
Okay.
So sorry.
I'm sorry.
I just wanted to make sure I understood that, but please go ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, no, I understood.
Yeah.
And I am, um, and my mother is pretty good business woman.
She's pretty, uh, stern and, and, and focused and hardworking and driven and all that.
So, I mean, that's, that's not been too bad, um, working with her as an adult, which has only been within the last three years, really.
But, but personal wise, I mean, we got, I mean, we have holidays together and things like that.
Uh, but they have no interest in.
Really seeing their grandchildren, which I'm the youngest of five.
They have seven other grandchildren.
And so again, I'm not trying to make excuses for them, but in my mind, and my dad's even made like half joking comments, like, oh, I've already had seven grandkids.
That's enough.
And, and just not interested in seeing them or spending time with them, which, uh, again, I've just, I've stopped trying to, to make that happen.
And I'm just hoping my, my kids will stop, you know, I don't know, ask, ask about them less.
I can hold off on my question if you're mid-thought, or I'm totally fine to have you finish that.
Well, one other thing I'll say is my wife's parents, they live in Poland.
We go there a couple times a year for them to see them, and for her to see her family, of course.
They're just so happy every time.
They have jobs as well, and they work a lot.
But every time we're there, they watch them
They want to be with them the whole time we're there.
Whether it's two weeks or not, they want them the whole time.
And so, one time when I asked my dad, hey, do you want to go to this trampoline park with us?
And, oh no, I don't feel like it.
And I made the comment, I said, man, her parents have watched them more, spent more time with them than you guys have, and they live an ocean away, and you live 10 minutes away.
Well, we have jobs, and so do her parents.
And then he just got mad and hung up.
Wait, he hung up on you when you had some criticism?
Correct.
Holy crap.
Anyway, so, go ahead.
Well, I just wanted to point that out.
I mean, her parents, they're nice and all that, and they love seeing them, but my parents have no interest in me.
What does your wife say about your parents?
In what sense?
In this specific sense, or generally?
No, I mean, just as a whole, what does she think about them, and your relationship with them, and their relationship with her children, and so on?
She does not understand why they don't want to spend time with their grandchildren.
You know, Poland is more traditional, and my parents are, I mean, my family is more traditional than most.
Again, I was homeschooled and raised in the middle of nowhere, and all of that.
I'm so it's kind of odd but yeah but her parents are pulling way more traditional and she's like why don't understand why they don't want they don't want to see their grandchildren and they clearly love them and.
I mean you can make time for your family and things like that so boomer templates you know.
Yeah exactly it's just and i'll even tell my mom i said listen because she.
Now she kind of manages all the properties we are which is quite a few we have.
About 130 different units across a few different, like, bigger properties together.
And then my parents, on their own, have about 47 others.
And so, it's definitely a full-time job.
And I told her... Because I manage... I own and manage over about 2,700.
And I told her, I said, listen, I can just hire somebody just to do the stuff that we have.
And it's all local.
It's all in the... Within 40 minutes of where we live.
And she's oh, no, I like doing it.
It's no it's not that big a deal and and but then that's the excuse She's is like, oh, no, we have jobs.
We can't we can't spend time with them And so it's like well just say you don't want to spend time with it and I haven't told them that but It's oh, no, we love them.
Oh, well, okay.
What's you say that but then show it?
Uh, it's it's it's confusing to me and then my wife is has the same Opinion again, maybe maybe I should just embrace this like, okay great.
Well, they you know, they they hit me as a child.
So
So, it's good that they don't want to see their grandchildren, because I don't want them to hit them, but I don't know.
Again, I don't want to interrupt, so... No, that's my full thought at the moment.
Okay, my jaw is kind of on the floor as a whole, because I'm really having a tough time processing what you're saying.
It could be my limitation completely, so bear with me as I try and understand this situation.
What's your age range?
Are you in your 30s, 20s?
28.
Okay.
Okay.
I mean, so you, um, when did you move out from home?
What age were you?
I think 21 or 22, I had purchased an office and I just lived in one of the rooms because, you know, I liked the personal freedom and not being in my parents' house.
Um, just because they're, they're very, uh, intrusive in a lot of ways.
So, what do you want?
Can I say one other thing?
Yeah, of course.
Can I say one other thing?
The more I think about it, the more messed up it gets.
Well, then you're joining me on my confusion, but go ahead.
Sure.
Well, I really feel like, I mean, I feel it's about work.
From my experience, my parents have never respected me up until they very barely now respect me in a business sense just because of
The seeing success and me helping them get success.
Uh, but they have never respected me in any way outside again, limited in business.
So one example that was incredibly embarrassing for me was, yeah, I had very few friends growing up.
My only, the only place I could see people would be like church or I, they did, I do, I was in martial arts and that was nice.
And so I had a limited but it was mostly older kids.
So I just had very limited interactions with with people my age Uh, and i'm pretty introverted.
So I know it's mostly genetic, but I do think part of Part of it was just my upbringing and so one night I had I had one friend that I met from from work, but we were we were friends And he had a friend that he interested me.
How old were you here?
Oh, this was like, oh I was 25 maybe like 3 or 24 a few years ago
Um Maybe not even that far.
It was it was like maybe three years ago because my firstborn was was already alive.
So so uh my wife my friend his friend and I are all watching a movie at my house and This was this was one of maybe well, maybe less than Seven times my parents had agreed to watch My one child again, I live seven minutes away, but again, I'm not obligated for that They're obligated to watch my kid, but they agreed to so so i'm at uh
I'm uh We're watching a movie in my house I don't have my phone on it's on silent because you know, so we watch the movie we're sitting around we're talking for like It couldn't have been longer than half an hour after the movie was over and it was only like nine nine nine thirty and I wasn't super late and my dad Comes to that comes to my house he
He knew the code because he was the same code I had at my office to get in my house.
He comes in my house.
Again, I have guests over.
He doesn't even know.
And he starts yelling at me in front of these people.
What is wrong with you?
I have been trying to call you and we have your son and you haven't come and picked him up yet.
And he just went on and on, just like yelling at me in front of my own house.
He comes in my house and just screaming at me in front of people.
He doesn't even know.
It was just, it just was so embarrassing for me.
And, and I'm sure because of this, like that never happened again.
We never had any, uh, like they just never materialized after that.
Any of these friends coming over to watch a movie after.
And I probably, what happens when he did that?
I went outside and.
I talked to him and I was I was upset.
I was like, don't yell at me.
Okay, don't yell at me in my house.
And I said, it's not that late.
My phone was on silent.
What's the big deal?
We're not we're not we're not watching him all night.
You should have already come to get him.
And so I left and got him and then they left and you know, it's my
My dad, it's not funny.
My dad, I think he truly believes, because he'll say it like he's joking, but when you press him, he actually means it.
He's never wrong.
He's never wrong.
Whatever he said, he's always in the right, and he's the greatest person in the world.
And the only times he's ever apologized are when my mother will guilt him into it.
And so afterwards, maybe the next day, I called my mother and said, what was that about?
And, and, oh well, you know, he was upset because, and I said, you know, that was just, it was awful.
It was such an awful experience.
And then he called me like, well, sorry for doing that.
You know, that was inappropriate, but you really should have got him, you know, you should have got him.
Yeah, sorry, but it's never sorry.
Yeah, exactly.
And, and, and, yeah.
Yeah, so that's that story.
And again, as I think through things, I know my mother has a tendency to behind the scenes kind of goad my father on.
So it could have been a situation where she said, it's already this time and they're not, she's not back yet.
I mean, that's, that's really not right.
I gotta tell you, listening to you imitate your parents is really quite eerie.
So accurate.
Yes.
Okay.
So it's, it's yeah.
Well, we've had similar experiences.
It's funny cause I'm, you know, I'm wiping tears from my eyes and cause I was at the eye doctor earlier and they put this yellow solution to look for defects.
And so I'm crying yellow streams, like, uh, I'm some anime character or something.
Wow.
Eye urine is achieved.
Okay.
Yeah.
Or urine.
Yes, exactly.
Or urine.
All right.
Is there more that you want to say?
That's the extent of interactions I've had with my parents that come to mind.
Okay.
Now, listen, I'm not trying to interrupt you or stop you, I just have some thoughts or questions, but I want to make sure that you've got what you need to off your chest, at least for the moment.
Sure.
Yes, I have, and I appreciate that.
If I accidentally have to, I apologize.
No, no, listen, you're not doing anything wrong.
I want to hear, and I don't want to interrupt.
And I don't want my questions to shoulder aside your side of the conversation, because this show is about you, right?
Sure.
Well, I appreciate that.
So, I don't have any other thoughts at the moment.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Oh, no, it's a question.
So, what is it that you're looking for from your parents at the moment?
I think family is important like if there's any objective or one of maybe a couple objective things it is to have children and to raise them in a loving way and I think or part of that ideally would have extended family that also loves them and they get to see so it's not just mom and dad and of course obviously
Okay, not your sentimentality and ideas and abstracts and wouldn't-it-be-nice-if.
Your actual parents.
Not the ones in your head that are great-grandparents, or whatever you're talking about here.
Your actual, flesh-and-blood, empirical evidence, twenty-eight-years parents.
I guess it's like when I'm with them, if I'm with them when my kids are around, which is almost every time, because I never want to watch, they never want to see them, they're typically nice and they'll talk to them or play with them some.
Uh, and so it's, uh, I don't know if it's a biological thing or what, but then they'll ask for them later on.
And of course they do the same thing with their babysitter.
So maybe it's just that there's someone that's giving them attention.
So they like them, but they like them.
And I think it would be good if they had a healthy relationship with their grandparents, but I don't know if that's possible, but that's, that's at least the, the idea I have in my mind, what would be good if they have a relationship with them.
So here's why I'm asking.
Sure.
My question way back at the beginning was, why doesn't your son listen to you?
Yes.
Would you like to know why?
I would like to know why.
Because he looks at you as low status.
Okay.
So he looks at you, that look he gave you before he went out, that's him processing your status.
You really think that he can comprehend it?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the first things that, I mean, you know the pecking order.
Your siblings are going through it right now.
Pecking order is one of the first things that kids try and figure out.
So your son looks at you, has low status in some ways.
I'm not saying, of course, in every way or fundamentally.
And I could be wrong about this.
I'll just tell you sort of my reasoning behind it.
If I don't know, who's, who's your son's biggest hero?
Who's his biggest, like, is it a transformer?
Is it, I don't know, like what, what, who is his son's most treasured person outside of the family?
But we've, and we very rarely let him watch any type of media.
Uh, he liked Paw Patrol, but we've kind of just secretly gotten rid of the Paw Patrol toys and things like that.
And he hasn't really asked about it because.
The producers hired a tranny as one of the producers, and so that did not sit well with me, so that ended.
Okay, so if he doesn't have any particular kind of hero, like for me, when I was a kid, Superman was high status for me, right?
So if you imagine, if Superman had come down when I was a three-year-old and said, don't open that door, son, right, what would I do?
You wouldn't open the door?
I wouldn't open the door because he's super high status.
And so, I'm just talking about my parenting here, and I think it translates, so let me know.
I have been very studious, I've been very assiduous in making sure my daughter does not see me in low status situations.
Because when I say to my daughter, stop, I want her to stop, not because she's obeying me in some sort of fundamental way, but it's out of respect.
Yes.
Now, when a son has trouble listening to his father, at that age, in my view, it's almost always a status issue.
So, my next question was going to be, and I guess you've answered it, is does your son see you around your parents?
And, of course, he does.
As you say, they don't really spend much time with your kids on their own.
So, both of your sons see you around your parents, right?
Yes.
You said your son was born when your father came in and yelled at you, right?
He was asleep.
Well, no, he wasn't asleep.
He was with him at the time.
Um, so he left him at my parents' house when he came to yell at me.
Cause he only lived seven minutes away.
Right.
So without a doubt.
And how old was your son at this point?
Oh, he would have been a little older than six months old.
Right.
Okay.
And how often do your kids spend time with your parents when you're not around?
When I'm not around, I mean, very infrequently, maybe
Maybe once every couple months, maybe.
And are there any signs, if you were to be looking at it like an anthropologist, right?
Because that's what kids are, they're anthropologists of the social environment, right?
And the reason that kids need to figure out status is they need to know how assertive or aggressive they can be.
Sure.
Because if your father is very low status,
That's gonna have you have, like, I mean, let's take still a sort of severe example from history.
If your father is a king, you end up acting one way.
If your father is a slave, you end up acting another way, as a kid.
Like, you have to figure out where your father is in the pecking order.
Sure.
Now, when your parents are around, does your son see any indication that they have low or no respect for you, or negative contempt for you?
I'm sure.
I'm certain they've seen.
I mean, because again, it would be like holidays where it could be talking down to me or arguing with me or my dad again, he'll belittle me.
And so your sons are seeing you pushed around, bullied and belittled and taking it and asking them back for more.
And then you wonder why your son looks at you and says, Oh man, I don't have to listen to this guy.
You can't let your children see you in a low status situation.
Because then they don't respect you as an authority figure.
Because that was my first question!
And look, I mean, I've obviously been imperfect as a parent, so I'm not trying to lord it over, but my daughter, if I say stop, she'll stop.
Sure.
And she always hath.
Sure.
Now, of course, she disagrees with me, and I'm far from perfect as a parent, but as far as that goes, she does respect that I have status and authority, because I don't let myself be in situations where people bully me.
Sure.
And that's why I don't... Okay, wait, wait.
So, we're not connecting at some emotional level here, because you're still in abstract land.
Okay.
So, do you see what I mean?
Like, you have presented yourself as a person to be disrespected, held in contempt, and bullied by your village elders in front of your sons.
Yes.
How do you feel about that?
How do I feel about them doing it to me, or me allowing my son to see it?
Well, we already know how you feel about them doing it to you, but the effect it has on your sons.
Not good.
Do you want to know why your eldest boy is pushing and hitting your baby?
Because he sees my father...
Verbally doing it to me.
Because children, especially sons, who do they model themselves after in any social environment?
Who do they try to emulate?
Who do they try to become?
The alpha male?
Yeah, the most powerful person in the environment is who they will be.
So your father is parenting your children in some ways even more than you are.
You think even, again, let's say once every
Couple months seeing them, that is enough to have that big of an impact on them?
Sorry, I thought that it was only once every couple of months that they saw them alone.
No, that's correct.
And I guess, yeah, I probably see them then.
We see each other maybe a couple times a month.
Very, like, we'll go out to lunch if they're going out to lunch sometimes.
Oh, that's absolutely, that absolutely is more than enough.
Okay.
And you do holidays, right?
Yes.
And your son, though he may not understand all of the words, though he probably understands a bunch, he probably hears you complaining about your parents, probably hears you on the phone begging them to see the kids, or even if it's in another room he can hear the tone, so he hears you pleading and being low status.
Yes, that's correct.
I mean, I had a call with a guy years ago, who was a dog owner, whose dogs were perfectly well behaved, except once he was at his father's place, his father yelled at him, he put up with it, and his dogs bit him on the way home.
Wow.
That's wild.
That one interaction.
One interaction.
That they witnessed.
Yeah.
And that's a dog brain, not a human brain.
Yeah, you can't afford low status as a parent.
Yes.
So.
Why are you trying to make the people rich who beat you 2,500 times?
That's what I'm trying to figure out.
What do you want?
Like, what are you trying to get from your parents that you're like, well, it's true.
You beat me.
You hold me in contempt.
You put me down.
You yell at me.
You humiliate me.
But hey, uh, maybe I could make y'all millionaires.
Yeah.
What the hell is going on?
Yeah.
Maybe it's... I mean, I'm trying to reflect.
No, no, don't maybe me.
No, don't maybe me.
You know what the answer to this is.
Don't fog me, bro.
What is the answer?
What are you trying to do?
What are you trying to get here?
If I make them rich, they'll love me?
Yeah, make them respect me.
Or take me seriously.
So your parents are bribable.
You bribe them into liking you or respecting you.
Is that right?
Well, clearly with business that works.
Well, by that, I mean, you're being sarcastic, right?
Because it didn't work, right?
Well, with my mother, she does respect me in business.
My own dad still doesn't, really.
Well, I thought you had this whole thing that your dad tells you what to do when you've had seven years of experience and he's new to the field.
Correct.
Correct.
I mean, haven't you just got a whole speech about how your father doesn't respect you even though you make them rich?
That's correct.
That's correct.
Okay, so that doesn't work, right?
I mean, I worked on my mother, but my father hasn't changed.
My mom does... No!
No!
Oh my God!
Stop separating your parents.
Right?
This is good cop, bad cop stuff.
Nice parent, not-so-nice parent.
Right?
Your mother is happy to remain married to, and support, and claim to love a guy who humiliates her adult child.
Now, she may say, well, you've got to apologize or whatever, but nothing fundamental is changing, right?
No, not at all.
So, there's no good guy in there.
Yeah.
And I remember, like, even after I thought I got through to at least my father about the whole circumcision question, and showing him your video and all of that, and he was like, oh, God, this is awful.
And explaining that, you know, they sell it to cosmetics companies, and it's extremely painful for the child, all this stuff, that he would at least say, yeah, that was a mistake.
And then, I probably asked him, I said, if he had another child, another son, would you circumcise him?
Oh, of course I would, yeah.
No hesitation.
Okay, so he's being very clear that it doesn't matter how much information gets passed, it doesn't matter what emotional connection he has, he's never going to change.
Right.
Is it good for your children, is it good for your sons, for you to be humiliated by your father?
No.
Is it good for your wife to watch you get humiliated by your father?
No.
Is it good for you to be humiliated by your father?
No.
So what are you doing?
Yes you do!
What are you doing?
What am I doing?
Trying to get their love or respect that I never got.
Well, I mean, you're a smart guy, obviously a very competent, very able businessman, a dedicated parent, a good husband.
So you seemed like a great guy to me.
So you're not stupid, right?
So what are you doing?
Because the idea that after 28 years, you're going to try and get the love of people who'd never admit fault.
Who holds you in contempt, who regularly humiliate you, who beat you 2,500 times as a child.
And you'll be like, they're turning the corner any moment now.
Yeah.
What are you doing?
What comes to mind is I don't, outside of work, I really don't have any people that I consider friends.
And you know why that is?
Because no one respects me?
Because you're being crushed and humiliated by your father and you will be going into your fourth decade!
Yeah.
Does your father bully anyone in power?
Does he bully cops if he gets pulled over?
Does he bully waiters?
Is he a general bully?
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
My mother will say that my father brings out the worst in people.
He is so horrible.
It's their fault, right.
I don't know what she means by that.
She does blame him, but I don't know why she phrases it that way.
He will get people screaming upset.
Or just be so awful to people in just random situations like cashiers or waitresses or waiters or even Like one quick example.
I have a cpa that that I use and he's very is very specific to this industry and So I recommended my parents to them but before I did so I called the guy and I said listen if you have any bad experiences with
My parents, please don't hold it against me.
Uh, cause I know how my dad can be.
And of course, I mean, literally the last interaction I had with my father, he was like, no, I tried to get this, this financial document from him and he, he wasn't getting back to me promptly.
So I left him a very scathing voicemail and then he, he got it to me.
Sorry.
You recommended that somebody work with your father?
Is this an enemy of yours?
Sorry, I'm trying to follow this part of the story.
No, it's not.
Is he a friend?
He's a guy that I like and that does good work, and so that was a mistake.
Good Lord, man, what are you doing?
Why would you want to stick your child abuser on an accountant?
That's not funny, but the way you phrased that made me laugh.
Oh, Lord, that was a, that was a big mistake.
Okay.
So, so, so why did you do that?
Right.
We can say mistake, but that doesn't mean trying to help.
Trying to help my parents.
And I'm not even opposed to like cutting people out of my life that are family.
I have within the last year done that to one of my sisters, um, and also convince my parents to do the same with her.
Uh, and so I'm not even, why did you do that?
Among other things, the last straw was she tried to get my brother, other brother Hill.
And I'm not exaggerating.
She called the police.
I'm still trying to figure out this good childhood we started with, but okay.
I'm I'll get with you down this road.
What happened?
Maybe not so good.
Uh, you know, I guess it always seems nicer.
I don't know what it, but so the.
My sister is a chronic, uh, you know, she, she's an alcoholic drug user, just very unstable person.
And she, she called the police in the middle of the night.
She was mad at my other brother over, I don't even really know what, and my other brother, he has issues as well, but she called the police on him the middle of the night, told the police that he had kidnapped
Women and was holding them captive that he was selling cocaine and that he had a gun.
So she swatted your brother and tried to get him killed.
Yes.
Yes.
And they came literally guns drawn to his apartment.
Uh, and she said he kidnapped women and kept them in an apartment, not even a basement, like in the middle of nowhere.
No, no.
In his apartment.
Yeah.
All right.
This is what she told the police and, hey, believe all women.
And then, you know, multiple cop cars come to my brother.
The cops have to go.
It's not believe all women.
Right.
That's why.
For sure.
For sure.
I mean, it just sounds so ridiculous.
But yes, yes.
Correct.
And so, and then she did something similar to my parents and also attempted to do that to me.
And, you know, again, all this stuff is starting to come back to my mind as, as we're having this conversation.
So as a result of that, I completely cut her out of my life.
I refuse to ever have anything to do with her ever again.
Sorry, are you holding your sister infinitely more responsible than your parents who raised her?
Yes, clearly yes.
I shouldn't be, but yes, that is correct.
Can you help me understand the logic of this?
I mean, you cut your sister out, who of course did a terrible thing, or I'm sure many, many terrible things, but you're making your parents who raised her, and I assume abused her as well, you're making them rich.
Bro, what are you doing?
I feel like I'm in a laundromat here, just rounded, rounded, up and down, and like, oh my god, what's happening?
Yeah.
I see the disconnect, and the logical disconnect, and I don't have a good answer.
For that.
Okay.
Give me a bad answer.
Give me any answer.
I'm fine with that too.
I don't have many quote unquote close relationships and the idea of never talking to my parents again is upsetting.
Like outside well, I mean outside of many things like if we're talking about just I don't know my dad likes karaoke I kind of like karaoke.
It's fun.
Sometimes we'll talk about that or something and that's enjoyable or Or my mother again.
She she uh She really enjoys the work and I love what I do as well and so we'll talk about that and that's that's fun, I guess and
So and I guess the sentimentality of all your parents was again.
I've had no problem at all cutting up my sister and I tried Like oh gosh over a decade ago to get them to do this because She had a child when she was she got pregnant when she was 16 and my parents ended up having to adopt him because she got She got married divorced married again The second guy was abusing the child extremely like very intensely and they had to fight they got custody
And I was so happy and then they were bringing her around like not even six months after that after the whole ordeal of legal battle.
But what happened to your sister as a child?
I don't know anything other than then we were raised in the same house.
We were all homeschooled and all I can the only thing that was.
Okay, so I was one of the youngest of five The two oldest are the oldest is like 16 years older than me My other sister's like 12 years older than me and then I'm like two years apart from my other two siblings So I was closer with them um they They met other like teenagers like 13 when they're like 13 or 14 from this homeschool co-op we would go to like once a month and uh hung out with them more and they started like smoking weed and
When I was like 9 or 10, I smoked weed with them for about a year.
They both got caught doing it and I saw my parents' disappointment.
I saw how much it disappointed them, so I admitted it to my dad and told him I would never do it again.
And I never did it again.
At least up until about a couple of years ago, uh, I did it, but, uh, or about, about four years ago.
Um, but, but what I'm getting at is the only thing I can think of that was significantly different was they were around, you know, not good friend influences and my parents were oblivious or just didn't care.
Yeah.
That's not enough.
So I don't know.
I really don't know.
Yeah.
That's, that's not enough.
You mean for them to be that different, my sister?
Yeah, that's not enough.
Well, what would you... Uh... I'm really trying to think.
No, look, everyone gets exposed to bad friends.
I did, you did, everyone gets exposed to bad friends.
I mean, could it just be a genetic screw-up?
That's what I always thought.
Because my oldest brother, we're very similar, we're both...
You know, very similar interests, similar work ethics, similar business, really.
And then my other, the two siblings closest to me, they're really different.
And then my oldest sister just has never really done anything, but she's just nice, and that's the extent of it.
So, are you saying that some people are just genetically susceptible to teen pregnancies and drug addiction?
Oh, they absolutely are.
I'm sorry, is that, I mean, maybe that's been studied and I'm not aware that addiction genes have been discovered?
Yeah, there's alcoholism.
You're predisposed to different things.
And obviously, among races, you know, different races have different levels
of teen pregnancy, drug use, and criminality, and everything else.
So, that's definitely a genetic thing.
And so, within races, it would... No, but the different races differ in IQs as well.
So, I mean... Right.
So, I don't know... Has there... I mean, maybe there has been... I know that people say that there's a, you know, genetic susceptibility to alcoholism, and that may be the case with natives or the indigenous population of North America, but a gene for addiction that
Strips free will, is that right?
No, definitely not.
It's just more impulsiveness or, you know, shorter time horizon.
Okay.
Do you have any other addicts in the family?
My grandfather, who I never met, I talked to him once on the phone, but he was a big alcoholic and he severely
Then, you know, the cycle of abuse continues on.
He severely would beat my dad, according to him.
And, you know, it's funny how I think about that.
He would tell me how awful this was, but then he would do the same thing to me.
But, yeah, he would say that he was just awful.
He'd get drunk and just beat them for no reason.
And my grandmother, who, again, she was also terrible, honestly.
Again, I'm never going to exclude women because they're usually equally to blame, if not more.
Uh, she, she eventually left him and then got with a bunch of other men that who also beat them and everything else.
So, um, so yeah, that, that, uh, he was an alcoholic.
My brother, the one that she tried to get killed, uh, is, uh, he's been on different drugs throughout his life and.
Sorry, been on, do you mean like prescribed, or he takes?
No, I don't even quite know.
I know cocaine is one of them, weed, which... Okay, so he takes drugs.
I just wanted to know if it was like painkillers for whatever.
Well, that too, at one point.
I think that may be the main one, even.
I don't know.
I really don't know.
That's upsetting too, because I do... My brother and I have had a mostly good relationship.
This one, the one that's closest in age to me.
Is this the one who laughs at circumcision effects?
No, different one.
Okay, got it.
He's totally on board with that.
He at first was resistant like most men that have been circumcised.
Oh no, it's cleaner.
Women prefer it.
And then when I showed him the stuff, he was totally on board.
He was like, this is so awful.
I can't believe that our dad did this to us.
My parents will always blame each other and then neither one of them takes accountability.
Well, your mother wanted it.
Sorry, I mean, I can't really stomach more negative talk about your parents because I've got the complete picture.
Okay, so with regards to your sister, obviously I don't know.
My first guess would be based upon, you know, I've talked to a lot of addiction experts and done shows on all of this kind of stuff.
Palm of the brain.
Yeah, so my guess would be something like this.
So, everybody handles pain in a different way.
Some people become workaholics, some people drink, some people do drugs, some people get addicted to video games to numb themselves, some people become sex addicts, and some people go for high status, even going into debt to get it.
Some people gamble to feel better about themselves and give them something else to worry about.
There's lots of different ways that people deal with pain, right?
Now, maybe there is a genetic susceptibility to dealing with pain one way or another.
Right, so maybe, I mean, I don't know, but my guess would be maybe that your sister had a susceptibility to dealing with pain by taking drugs.
I mean, I've tried alcohol, of course, like most people have, and I, you know, I don't really, certainly getting drunk is no fun.
I mean, for me.
Obviously some people like it, but I don't, right?
So I don't have, but the question is not
The question is not, is there a gene for drug addiction?
The question is, is there a gene that makes people more likely to use drugs to deal with personal agony?
My question is, where the fuck is the personal agony coming from?
Like, why does she need to self-medicate to that degree?
Now, again, everybody's self-medication might be different, right?
Sure.
Well, so, she was already
Doing these sorts of things and certainly smoking weed and I don't really know all what else and having sex and she claimed that.
She told me that she was raped by a guy.
That was a friend of my brother's when she was like 15.
And.
Okay.
So why, why, why are you giving them all this genetic stuff?
Well, that just came to mind.
And part of the reason why I didn't think of that at first is.
She has falsely accused a lot of other guys of rape, including my father as an adult, and this was in a situation where I was in the room with both of them, so I know she just makes stuff up.
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.
She accused your father of sexually abusing her?
Oh, of inappropriately touching her or grabbing her or assaulting her.
And then calling the police.
This is when she lived with my parents when I'm still living at home when we were teenagers.
And the police would come out and talk to all of us and then they just leave because it's all nonsense.
She was just angry at my dad for maybe legitimate reasons, but that was her response.
So you think that her claims of having been raped when she was 15 are false?
I never, I always believed her up until
She started making false accusations of, of that nature.
And then other false accusations against me as well.
And against other people in my family and against other people we know just, and it was like drug, again, I'm not making excuses at all, but it would almost be like she'd get high and then just start making these false police reports, which again, you have to be, I mean, it was very detailed, so I don't even.
Oh no, listen to it.
I mean, that's obviously terrible behavior and to be false accusations, you should get the same jail time as all right.
I get all of that.
But at the beginning.
Yeah.
Right?
It's certainly, I mean, it's possible, I suppose, that she was raped.
And then the drug addiction, the false... like it all kind of snowballed out of that.
She was already smoking weed.
I think she was already having sex prior to that.
And I think at the time they were both drinking.
And so then later on... Sorry, who's they?
This guy that
She says raped her and then her.
She told me they were drinking.
Okay, so, sorry, are you saying that your sister was having sex and smoking drugs when she was 14?
Yes.
Now, didn't you all live in the country?
Yes.
So, how's it... and you're homeschooled?
Yes.
You know what my next question is, right?
Why would my parents allow this or how did it happen?
Well, they had to know.
They, we, my parent, my dad had an office in town and... So your dad had what?
Oh, an office in town, sorry.
An office in town and there was like a basement that we used to go and like play video games because we had high-speed internet and stuff like that.
And so frequently, at least my closest in my age group, brother and sister would go there and then these people would come over and they would do all this, these things.
And
Okay, so it's in the house?
Well, this was in an office.
Like, spend the night, like, not at home.
But, I mean... Oh, okay.
So, hang on, hang on.
Are you saying that your parents would allow a 14-year-old girl to be around all these skeevy guys?
Yes.
Unsupervised, in an office far from home?
Not overnight, though.
She wouldn't stay overnight, would she?
Overnight, yes.
Oh, come on, man!
No!
So they're having co-ed sleepovers completely unsupervised.
Yes.
I mean, they're just feeding her to the lions.
Yes.
Am I wrong?
No, you're exactly correct.
Oh my God.
I mean, I'm beyond shocked.
I've honestly, like, no, hang on, let's pause a second here, brother.
Like, I'm beyond shocked.
I mean, I got a 15 year old daughter, right?
I'm beyond shocked.
What on earth was going on?
I mean, they've ruined that girl.
In my opinion.
I mean, if I'm wrong, tell me.
I agree.
And it's... Why I go back to genetics is, it's...
Uh, because my oldest two siblings, I'm sure they have trauma that they've just buried because we've never really talked about it, but they're pretty, they're normal.
They're not alcoholics.
They don't do drugs.
They're married.
They have kids.
And, uh, they, my parents were more supervisor, you know, they supervise the oldest two more according to them than they did the last three, including myself.
So I don't know.
Hang on, dude, what are we talking about?
It's just lending me off this fucking family tree shit.
Like we're just talking about what happened with your sister.
Yeah, I know.
I'm just going back to like, I don't know.
No, no, no.
I don't want you to go back and abstract.
You're trying to minimize your feelings here.
I'm, I'm, I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on in this family.
Yeah.
I mean, to try and put yourself in my shoes, if you were hearing this cavalcade of horrors for the first time, what would you think?
If this was someone else's family and you were hearing these stories of alcoholism and beatings and child rape potentially and beating babies with belts and
Humiliation, and aggression, and scorn, and contempt, and violence, and... I mean, what would you think if you were hearing these stories?
It was horrendous and unacceptable.
Well, I know.
I don't know what you mean by unacceptable.
It's all happened.
I mean, if I shoot myself in the foot and then say it's unacceptable, what does that mean?
Well, it's inexcusable, is what I mean.
But you do excuse it.
Not only do you excuse it, you work very hard to reward it!
Here's money, here's expertise, here's free business advice.
You pay!
For it.
Please spend more time with my children!
What is going on?
How do I take this information and make... No, no, no.
I mean, everybody does this.
Sorry, this is so predictable.
It's that you get an insight, and how do you destroy the emotions associated with the insight?
Do you know what you're doing right now?
What do I do with this information?
Right?
Is that where we're going?
Well, no, I was just, I want to, the correct decision would be probably to completely cut them out.
No, I'm not asking, look, I don't care, I mean, the decision I can't make for you, and I don't know what the correct decision is, right, because we're just having a talk.
But you're jumping straight from feeling to conclusion to action, so you can avoid the feelings.
I just don't know how to handle it.
I've never, I've never been to any type of therapy or really talked this out.
No, no, no, no.
Don't care.
Don't care.
No, because you already were emotional in this call, right?
So you have, you have the perfect capacity to access passionate emotions, right?
Yeah, you're right.
So you don't need a therapist to feel
I think, and again I say this with deep sympathy, right there in the trenches with you brother, I think you're still terrified of your father.
Any kind of boundaries, and it makes perfect sense, I mean the guy beat you 2,000 times as a child.
He still openly scorns, mocks and humiliates, he's very aggressive, punchy, brings out the worst in people, as your mother says, right?
Sounds almost demonic in a way, right?
Yeah, right.
He's a scary guy, right?
And a lot of socials, like around other people, he's so good at hiding it.
He's so friendly and nice and he just would never know it.
And then.
Wait, I thought you said he bullied a bunch of people.
Well, yeah.
I mean, like around people that he respects, I guess, like people from church or things like that.
No, around people he wants something from, around people that he needs to impress.
Yeah.
I mean, look, you, you can go and look up.
The corrupt personality style that is superficially charming.
You can go look that up and I'll let you draw your own conclusions out of that.
But there is a personality style or personality characteristic or personality type that is cold and manipulative and cruel but incredibly charming to strangers.
How do I feel my way through the emotions of this?
Because it still invokes this reaction whenever I really think about it.
Sorry, which reaction?
What happened as a child and what I continue to let happen as an adult.
Well, you are a husband and a father.
Now, of course, that's a lot of responsibility.
And yet, it also takes a lot of responsibility off your plate.
Because it's funny, you know, with parenting, everyone thinks that they all talk about all the responsibility that it puts on you.
And yeah, but you know what it takes?
It takes a huge amount of responsibility off... you.
How?
Well, what you do in your life is no longer up to you!
What do you live your life by?
Hopefully, what's in the best interest of raising your children.
Yeah, but what's good for your kids, right?
So, it's out of your hands, right?
You do what's best for your kids, and that means moral clarity.
Right?
That's a great way to look at it.
I've never... No, it's not just a great way to look at it, it's what it is!
Sure, sure.
Right, I mean, let me ask you this.
How many dating apps are you on?
Zeroes.
Right.
How many times do you try and pick up girls when you're out?
Zero.
Right.
So you got married, and you don't do that, it's not on the table, it's not what you do, so you don't have to worry.
You never have to worry about picking up a girl, getting her number, going on a date, trying to, right?
It's all done, right?
Because, I mean, you made a vow, you're married, you love your wife, so that's not a thing, right?
You just, so, you say, oh, marriage is so restrictive, it's like, well, yeah, but it also liberates you to not have to do any of that other stuff, right?
Sure.
So, as far as your feelings and all of that, super important, very important to sort of process these feelings and so on.
You want to know how to be a peaceful parent.
Well, to be a peaceful parent is to be respected.
I mean, you respect your wife, don't you?
Yes.
If your wife says that outfit is not appropriate, what do you do?
I change.
You change your outfit!
Of course you do!
Right?
If you say to your wife, I don't think we can afford this, she'll probably listen, right?
Yes.
Respect is a whole lot
Simpler in a relationship.
Because respect means the division of labor, right?
Yes.
I do philosophy, my dentist does dentistry, and we trade, right?
Yes.
Through the media of money.
But if I didn't respect my dentist, or my dentist didn't respect me, then we couldn't do business.
Respect is the foundation of the division of labor and efficiency in a relationship, and where people have earned your respect, you should pay it, right?
Because we want to be just and fair.
With these things.
This makes sense, right?
So, to be a peaceful parent is to have your children respect you.
Because when you respect someone, they don't need to be aggressive towards you.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
My dentist doesn't need to yell at me and say, you know, you've really got to floss the back a little better, right?
I mean, I'm one out of a thousand adults who still has his wisdom teeth, right?
Yeah.
So they're watching back there and making sure that I'm, I got a little water pick and whatever it is that I use to clean back there.
And I go for my checkups every four months and I just got to, I don't want to get my wisdom teeth out.
Thank you very much.
So I'll just have to take care of them.
Right.
So because I respect my dentist and you know, my dentist is great.
She doesn't need to yell at me.
She doesn't need to be aggressive.
She doesn't need to threaten me.
Doesn't need to bribe me.
She just says jump.
And I say, yeah, how high?
Oh, this high.
Okay.
I'll do that.
I don't need to fight with my wife when she says, maybe don't wear pajamas to a dance.
It's just efficient, right?
And we don't need to be aggressive with each other because we respect each other.
Sure.
I agree with all that.
So you, if you have a respect relationship with your children, you don't need to be aggressive towards them.
Because they'll want to listen to you, right?
I mean, does your GPS ever yell at you?
No, it does not, unless the volume's way up.
Recalculating, right?
No, it just says, when possible, make a u-turn, right?
I mean, so your GPS doesn't, because you listen to your GPS, right?
You assume that, I mean, with very rare exceptions, it's going to get you where you need to get to in reasonable time and efficiency, right?
So you respect your GPS.
You don't get into fights.
I mean, I know it's a robot in a sense, but, right?
And
If I didn't respect it, I wouldn't rely on its navigation.
Right.
And so, the way to be a peaceful parent is to have your children respect you.
And for your children to respect you, you have to respect yourself.
And to respect yourself, you have to not permit people in your life who don't respect you, or who hold you in contempt.
If you say, I am worthy of respect,
Then you have to earn it by being right and also being humble where you're wrong and taking correction and listening to other people who have better expertise, right?
Sure.
Right?
So in order to respect you, your children have to see you respect yourself and respect others.
Yes.
Right?
So if you have a big garden and someone
comes over and says, you know, you hire a gardener says, Oh, you need to do this, this and this with your garden.
And you say, okay, and then you do it.
Your children see you respecting someone else, right?
Sure.
And also their, their mother and everything else.
You respect the mother and, and so on.
Right.
And again, that doesn't mean never criticize or never give any feedback or never.
I mean, we are, we are old enough to understand this, right?
So your children need to see you both give respect to those who've earned it.
And to be respected because you've earned it.
Right?
Now, your children also need to see you deal with people who don't respect you.
I mean, once I was in a restaurant with my daughter and somebody who had a problem with the show came up and was kind of hostile and I'm like, hey, sit down, tell me, you know, we'll talk about it.
And I went through the arguments and all of that and actually ended up being quite a productive conversation.
And if somebody is disrespectful and you know I'll call them out on it and if they continue to be you mean you've seen this in the live streams occasionally I'll I'll kick people out or or whatever it is right just because you know like I'm why would I mean I've earned respect doesn't mean I'm perfect of course right but part of the way that I've earned respect is by admitting imperfections and changing when needed.
So if your children genuinely respect you
You don't need to be aggressive with them.
I mean, you said this with regards to the difference between your mother and your father, right?
Your mother respects your business acumen, which is right, and you've earned it, you're very successful, you've been doing it for seven years.
Ten years at this point, yeah.
Yeah, honestly, it's amazing.
It's amazing how good you are at this, and I'm, you know...
At 28, I was a new entrepreneur and you'd be doing it for donkey's years, right?
So, massive props and respect.
I'd listen to you too, right?
So, your mother respects you, so you don't need to get aggressive.
Your father drives everyone crazy because he's arrogant, intrusive, condescending, and wrong.
And your son's
Will gravitate to the highest status person in the environment, and they will replicate that behavior.
And they don't need to have a lot of exposure to it to internalize it.
And right now, I think, I assume, they're being programmed to act like your father.
Oh Lord.
Because you defer to him.
So who's the ultimate authority in your family tree that they've seen?
Yeah.
So your father is the ultimate authority, right?
So they're like the space aliens.
Do they want to deal with an underling?
What does the space aliens always say?
Take me to your leader, right?
They don't want to deal with an underling.
Do you ever, I mean, you're in business, right?
Do you ever want to talk to someone in great detail about a problem if they have no authority?
Oh no, of course not.
No, I mean, do you give great lectures to the waiter about the menu?
No, no.
No, he can't change the menu.
No, no.
So, you will only genuinely interact with people if you have an issue or need to, right?
The people who have authority, right?
People who can actually change things.
Your kids are looking around, scanning around the whole family tree, the whole environment, and they're saying, OK, who's in charge?
Oh, the granddad's in charge, right?
And it was kind of chilling to me when you said, what did you say about your kids and their relationship with their grandfather?
I want to be around him.
They love him, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Holy shit, dude.
Do you get what a five alarm fire that is?
So why do they love him?
Because he's the ultimate authority figure.
Yeah, because he's the one in charge, he's the most powerful, and he runs you like a vacuum cleaner.
So your son looks at you and you say, don't go outside!
And he's like, eh.
I didn't, uh...
Hey, I wasn't expecting all the... No, it's like somebody in a car just yelling at you that you're speeding, and you're like, eh, not really, I mean, I'm going a little over the speed limit, but who cares?
You know, get lost, right?
As opposed to a cop, whoop whoop!
You're speeding!
Right?
Yes.
Then you pull over, right?
Because the cop's got authority, he's got power.
It's not just a good idea.
It's the law, right?
You need to be the alpha in your environment.
I mean, you are at work, right?
Yes, for sure.
And honestly, I was gonna ask you that, how do I respect myself more?
Because I have maybe 14 or 15 employees, either direct employees or people I work with all the time that defer directly to me.
I struggle, honestly, with having authority, like telling them, you know, this is like, in a nice way, we have to do this here, you know, like, or if they make a mistake, I try to, I've read business books and things like that, but having authority, honestly, makes me uncomfortable.
And, and there's nothing wrong with that.
That's actually quite healthy.
That's, I mean, I used to, I mean, I was the boss of, I'm sorry, it sounds like I'm one-upping you.
I'm not, right?
I mean, it's like, oh yeah, 12, I was the boss of 30 people.
So I don't mean that at all, right?
Because that's ridiculous.
I was older than you, blah, blah, blah.
It doesn't matter, right?
But when I needed to talk to someone one-on-one, the last thing I'd want to do is like, I need to get in my office now, or I need to see my office right now, or, you know, because what would they do?
They'd crap themselves, right?
Yeah.
So I went back and forth for a long time.
What's the best way?
And what I'd do is I'd say, Hey, can I borrow you for a sec?
Cause that's totally non-intrusive and non-threatening, right?
Or, you know, quick question or, you know, as opposed to get in my office now, you know, like people that didn't.
Right.
So it was not embarrassing them in front of their colleagues.
Right, right.
But no, I mean, even if I did just have a question that had to be private, even if it wasn't any kind of correction or problem, I just needed to find a way to talk to them.
Yeah, without, you know, like the things that the teacher says, stay after class, right?
So no, it's good to struggle with authority.
And of course, you know, I mean, you hear me a million times on these call-in shows, like, I can't tell you what to do, I don't know what to do, this is my perspective, I could be wrong, it's my opinion, is it correct what I'm saying?
Like, I'm constantly deferring to people, of course, because I'm talking to you and trying to unravel the complex multidimensional threads of your life in like two hours, right?
Yeah.
So yeah, I'm going to get a bunch wrong and I need to correct and all that, right?
So, no, it's good.
It's good to struggle with authority.
Because, of course, the thing is, you get the most out of people when they're enthusiastic.
And authoritarianism, one of the first things it kills is enthusiasm, right?
Yes.
Right.
So, were your parents child abusers?
Yes.
Have your parents
Apologized, made restitution, and taken steps to ensure they'll never be bullying, critical, hypercritical, contemptuous, or negative in the future.
Not at all.
Right.
What is best for your sons?
Not being exposed to that.
Well, what's best for your sons is to have respect for you, which means you can't be bullied.
Now, you say, well, what if I'm over at my parents' place?
Well, you come back with a different perspective.
Your children will note how you are when you leave and they'll note how you are when you return.
Or say, well, I'm upstairs on the phone having a fight with my dad.
Well, they can hear the muffled tones and they also know how you appear when you come down the stairs.
Like, you can't hide anything from kids.
Like, this is one of the big revelations of... Because you've got a whole life, business, friends, movies, events, hobbies, and they've got, like, one thing and one thing only, which is figuring out their family, their parents, and their social environment.
That's it.
They're like lasers, right?
So, you can't be bullied.
Now, I mean, if you can find a way to not be bullied by your father, okay.
Guy, I mean, your business career is amazing in your twenties.
It's like great, beyond great.
It's hugely impressive in my view.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Now, I just say this because I might need a rental at some point.
No, I'm kidding.
I actually have some.
I had some in Canada.
I sold them because they passed rent control.
Oh yeah, that'll do it.
That'll do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, if you can find a way to not be bullied by your father, fantastic.
If you can't, but you can't let your kids see you getting bullied.
Okay.
Because it's just, what that does is it brings the bullying home.
Sure.
Because if your kids don't respect you, you have to escalate, right?
Because when you said at the beginning, you said my, and this is why I said like, you said my three-year-old doesn't, he disobeyed me, right?
Which is for you to say that your commandment should be enough, and for children, your commandment absolutely is enough, as long as you're the alpha.
Interesting, okay.
It is!
It's a magic spell.
If your children respect you, and again, you can think of all the people in your life that you respect, and if they say, do something, you do it.
Absolutely.
So, that's because you respect them, so they don't need any aggression.
That's sort of my point.
So, peaceful parenting is simply self-respect, the respect of your children, and don't have people in your life.
Now, you know, people then, I'm not saying this would be you, but people then go to the place where they say, oh, so you're saying don't have people in my life who disagree with me?
It's like, well, no, that's not what I'm saying at all.
You just don't have people in your life who hold you in contempt.
How do you respect yourself more?
Self-critical, and even if I achieve something, I'm like, well, I need to do more, and so, like, I... Sorry, how did you know that you're self-critical, just because you say that shit in your head?
And that's just your dad, isn't it?
That's just, like, never good enough for your father, and always got to do more, and... How do you know you're self-critical, or it's just your internalized father that you had to protect yourself?
How do you deal with that?
How do you eliminate that?
I'm sorry?
How do you get rid of that?
So, are you saying, how do you stop disrespecting yourself?
Yes.
Well, I mean, I'm not sure about the final form, but the first form is stop having people in your life that you want to voluntarily have around you, that you ask to come over and want to give your kids to, who hold you in contempt.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I mean, how do you get perfectly lean and healthy?
I don't know, but maybe if you're eating a cheesecake a day, at least stop doing that.
Like, at least start with don't eat a cheesecake a day.
That's definitely something you can start with and that's going to take a while.
So yeah, you don't have people in your life who hold you in contempt.
I mean, why would you want that anyway?
It's a very good point.
I mean, that's why I literally wouldn't talk about it with business.
The contempt stuff is horrible because even if you are deficient in some kind of way, contempt isn't going to fix it.
Right?
Right.
Contempt doesn't make people better.
No, no.
Contempt is an emotion of get away.
Like, I have no respect for you, I have nothing to do with you, you're nothing but negative, get away.
That's what contempt is.
Contempt doesn't improve people, it only improves your life by getting crap heads away from you.
Sure.
You know, and then, you know, maybe you have a conversation with your wife,
And you can ask her, because it's an interesting question, right?
How do you feel when my father treats me?
I mean, when you, when your father stormed over and was yelling at you in front of your friends, in your household with your children there, what did your wife say about that afterwards?
She thought it was inappropriate that he was acting that way.
And it was disgusted that, I mean, again, the same thing, well, she never even watched them, and why would he respond in that way?
Okay, but he did.
So what did she say?
What did she say?
Because she loves you, right?
And she doesn't want to see you hurt and harmed, right?
So, what did she say after you were hurt and harmed by your father?
I don't remember, honestly.
What would have been the ideal thing to say?
Yeah.
The ideal thing would be, well, I'm sure she recognizes this is not healthy and I shouldn't put up with it.
I love you so much, I can't ever see this happen to you again.
Yes.
Right?
Now, I mean, that's a pretty tough thing for a woman to do.
I mean, all, you know, all sort of gender norms aside, it's a little tougher for women to say that, but it is important, right?
Yes.
You need people in your life who are going to say, I can't, I can't see this happen to you.
I can't, I can't ever see this again.
Like either this behavior needs to be fixed or you need to take a break.
And we were, uh, we were leaning on moving to a different city about 40 minutes away, partially because there's more kids centered stuff and more like homeschooling things.
Cause we went to homeschool as well.
Uh, and also partially because I realized part of the reason why I was staying where I was at was because it was near my parents.
And I'm like, well, why the heck would I do that?
Because they don't care about them.
I'm trying to force something.
They don't even want apps and everything else, even if they just.
Well, this is the other thing too, is that your children are not modeling reciprocity.
And again, I know they're young and all of that, but your children want to spend time with their grandparents who don't want to spend time with your children.
Yes.
Which means that your children.
Are begging for your parents' attention without getting much in return, just like you are.
You see, you're modeling that behavior, too.
Yes.
That you beg for any positive treatment from cruel, high-status people.
Yes.
And, man, you don't want that, right?
You don't want that in your family.
No.
Well, this puts things into perspective.
Well, that's the gruesome job of philosophy, man.
That's how it rolls.
Can I ask you one other?
I didn't even anticipate getting on all the My Childhood, which, again, was necessary because that answers my original question, which I just didn't realize at the time.
OK, but keep it quick, though, because I've got something else this afternoon, but I'm certainly happy to answer the question.
I respect your time.
Thank you very much.
Is spending time with my kids and it being engaging?
Because I almost feel guilty because it's
Like, after, you know, the 10th Kids book, it's kind of boring for me.
So I'll try to take them to, like, again, trampoline parks or playgrounds and stuff.
And that's pretty entertaining as well, but... And my wife doesn't seem to mind very much, but, like, for me to... I know you were a stay-at-home dad, so that's even more impressive.
For me to be with them all day is... And I love... Yeah, I love spending time with them, but it's just... Doing kiddie stuff gets boring after, you know, a couple hours.
So like, do you have any advice on how to make it less boring or anything?
I just, you know, you've done it longer than I have.
You've asked, you've asked the question.
I got it.
Yeah.
I mean, there's, there's a very simple way to do it, which is stop consuming everybody else's entertainment.
Instead of reading stories, make up stories, have them participate, make it some adventure, you know, turn a box into a spaceship, like, uh, let your creativity run wild.
Just don't say, of course, yeah.
Reading, you're basically like a, an AI reader of somebody else's book.
Of course, it's going to get mindlessly boring.
But you want to just really up the creativity and then you can't get bored because you're creating stories on the fly and doing really cool and neat things that way.
So, yeah, I mean, just, you know, it's like if you're just watching, I'm not saying you do, right, but if you were just watching, I don't know, what was it, Paw Patrol or something like that over and over again, that would be pretty, pretty boring, right?
But if you're instead saying, let's create our own adventures, let's, uh, uh, all that kind of stuff, that is, uh, that, that, that'll keep you engaged and interesting.
Uh, interested, sorry.
To me, that sounds also boring.
Like I'll make up stories and tell them and it's like, I don't know.
I don't particularly like doing that either.
Oh, you don't?
And do the kids enjoy, like, new stories or creative stories or anything like that?
Oh yeah, they love it.
They love it.
And I'll try to think of stuff from, you know, positive stuff from my childhood about animals or things that, you know, going swimming or playing with, again, my dog or something, and they love that.
And I struggle with creativity, I guess, and it's just not fun to me to try to imagine up the dragon and then this and that, you know.
Sorry, it's not fun for you?
What do you mean?
That you're bad at it or something?
I think I'm bad.
Of course, for a three year old, everything is great, but I think I'm bad at it and I don't enjoy making up stories.
And what do you mean you're bad at it?
I mean, you're not trying to create an Oscar winning movie script.
Sure.
I guess.
Good point.
I don't enjoy it.
I guess would be better.
I mean, I'm sure I'm bad objectively, but for a three year old, it doesn't matter.
I just don't enjoy that either.
Okay.
So what is it that you do most enjoy doing with your kids?
Physical stuff like again, trampoline park or playing with them in the playground or wrestling and
Okay, so, and obviously there's nothing wrong with doing that stuff in the majority of time?
Sure.
Okay.
Yes.
Which is what I've been doing.
I just didn't know if I was defective because I hate reading for long periods of time.
And, I mean, but your wife enjoys that.
I do enjoy reading, just not kids' books.
What?
So, your wife enjoys that, right?
The reading?
Oh, she loves, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think it does wear on her after a while, especially if she's just home alone, and we don't
And we have like an acre, but it's, it's near a road.
So I don't know.
She's, she's inside with them a lot.
And so it's, it gets boring for her, but she does enjoy it mostly from my conversation.
Your kids.
Get into the stories.
I mean, do you ask them questions and stories like, so, oh yeah.
Okay.
So like when you're reading three little pigs, right.
You say, okay, how many bricks were there in the house?
So where did they get the straw?
You know, like, so just ask a bunch of questions.
So you get into the world and use it as a sort of multidimensional teaching tool rather than just reading like a robot.
Right.
Okay, well look, I mean, if your wife enjoys more of the verbal stuff and you enjoy more of the physical stuff, again, that's not atypical when it comes, but if you're bored, yeah, mix it up.
You have to really fiercely protect your enjoyment of your time with your kids.
Right?
So if you just do stuff, everything for them, and you don't have to enjoy it at all, that's not good, because
Then you won't look forward to spending time with them as much, right?
Exactly.
Correct.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Be absolutely fierce.
Like, uh, if, if you're not enjoying something you say, okay, daddy's bored and let's, let's go do something else.
And, and all of that kind of stuff.
And that's totally fine.
Yeah.
You can't just live for your kids because that's not teaching them about reciprocity and other people's needs.
Okay.
Well, great.
That's, that's, that's, uh, that's perfect.
You know, this is boring.
Let's do something else.
Daddy's bored.
Well, not this is boring.
Yeah, daddy's bored, or let's do something.
Well, whether you say bored might be a bit of an insult.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, if you're really passionate about something and someone else says it's boring?
No, it's very insulting.
You're correct.
Let's take a break from this.
Or, you know, hey, I would love to do something else.
I would love to try doing this, that, and the other without insulting what they're into in the moment, right?
I mean, you always have this in particular.
Even in the course of this conversation, I've said, I don't want to hear more about this.
Let's talk about that.
And you've wanted to talk more about stuff.
And so we've negotiated back and forth.
I'm not a slave to you, you're not a slave to me.
So, yeah, if you're getting restless and you want to do something else, then you say, let's go do X, Y, and Z. And, you know, again, as boys, I'm sure the park stuff is great for them and they love that.
So, yeah, that would be, that would be, yeah, you don't have to do everything for them.
That's not a great thing.
Okay.
Well, fantastic.
That makes me feel a lot better.
Beautiful.
Sounds like it was a fairly useful conversation.
Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
Absolutely.
I'm sorry?
Yes, absolutely.
Yes.
All right.
Thanks for the great chat and great, great questions.
Great work on your part and go have fun with your family.
