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March 2, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:58:46

2,500 Beatings! Freedomain Call In

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	Okay, I'm all ears.
	Hit me with how I can best help you.
	All right. So, my wife and I have two children.
	We're expecting our third.
	We want to have as many as we can.
	We're both in our mid...
	Well, she's in her mid-20s and in my late 20s.
	And I want to make sure I'm doing as much as I can to correctly raise them peacefully and also not mess them up.
	My childhood was pretty good, but that's the main thing as far as peaceful ways of disciplining them if they're just blatantly disobedient.
	So yeah, that's it. That's the main thing.
	I can go into specific scenarios if you'd like that I've experienced with them.
	Yeah, sorry. How old are your kids?
	About three and one and a half.
	They're pretty young. Okay.
	I'm sorry. I don't mean to be like, three and one and a half, and you're talking about, what, disobedience?
	Yeah, like, they both, especially the three-year-old, he understands, like, hey, come over here, buddy, or put that down, or, you know, we gotta go do this, or we can't buy that.
	And just refusing, you know, he knows what I'm saying.
	And so that's the main example I would give.
	Okay, let's talk about, I guess, some specific instances, and we'll see if we can throw the old peaceful parenting ball down the alley.
	Okay, sure. So, the other day, we were getting ready to go somewhere, and we had the front door open, but our screen door was shut.
	But he knows how to open it. So he opened it and ran outside with his socks on.
	And I said, wait, no, come back.
	We don't have your shoes on yet.
	And he kept running. I said, wait, stop.
	You gotta come in. And he looked at me. And then he turned around and just kept running around the driveway.
	And so I just picked him up and took him inside.
	That's one example.
	You know, he stopped. He looked at me.
	He heard me. And then he just kept disobeying.
	Right. Okay. Got it.
	So what's the problem with him?
	Was it because he was in his socks?
	I mean, is it dangerous? Yeah.
	What's the story? Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, it had rained, and it was wet outside, so I didn't want him to go outside without his socks on.
	And also, he could step on a rock or something.
	I'm not trying to be like a hypermomer.
	Sorry, step outside with his socks or without his socks?
	Yeah, with his socks on, but without his shoes on.
	He might step on a rock? Like, through the grass, and then on the...
	Yeah, well, it's through the grass, so we'd have to replace his socks, because otherwise they'd be wet, because it had rained prior.
	And, you know, and or on...
	I mean, we have like a rock bed in front of our house.
	Like, step on that.
	And so, let's just sort of play this out.
	So, if he goes outside, yeah, his socks will get muddy, right?
	Sure. And what's the problem with that?
	I mean, I get you don't want that to happen every 10 minutes or whatever, but if his socks get muddy, wouldn't you just change his socks?
	Sure. We were about to go, and all we had to do really was put his shoes on and get his brother's shoes on.
	When he just ran outside ahead of us.
	And we also, I guess more important than just that is, I mean, just going outside alone, we've told them, you know, you either go outside with mommy or daddy or, you know, or the babysitter.
	And we try to keep the front door locked, but he's big enough now where he knows how to open it, even when it's locked.
	Sorry, hang on.
	You just took me on a real journey here.
	I just want to make sure I stay with the specifics before we get to the aspects.
	For sure. So let's say he goes outside and he gets his socks muddy.
	You grab a new pair of socks and then you just change him wherever you're going?
	Or like you could change him someplace or, you know, like kids get muddy, right?
	That's just a reality, especially boys, right?
	So that's just kind of, that's built into the equation of being a parent to a little boy in particular as he's going to get muddy.
	So as far as stepping on rocks go, I mean, isn't that how kids learn?
	This is true, yes.
	When you were little, do you remember doing risky things?
	Yes. And do you think that you would be better off if you had never been allowed to do risky things as a little boy?
	I'm trying to think of specifics I've done.
	I get your point, and I agree it's better to let them do the risky things so they can learn, especially when the stakes are low.
	I'm not sure if this is relevant.
	As a child, I don't think I was particularly risky or very adventurous in a dangerous way, but I know that's a boyish trait, and he definitely has to weigh more than I did as a child.
	We're talking about stepping potentially on some rocks, right?
	I mean, this isn't skydiving, right?
	Sure. Right.
	Okay, so the negative consequences of him going outside were pretty small.
	Like, he wasn't running around in a parking lot or near a road or near a cliff edge.
	The negative consequences were pretty small, right?
	Yes, I will say that we do live near a road, and that was the other half of it is Him going outside by himself, we've told him not to do because it is dangerous.
	Do you not have a fence between you and the road?
	Unfortunately, no.
	We were going to build one, but we are going to be moving because our house is really small.
	We didn't want to invest in a $50,000 fence and then move six months later.
	A what? $50,000 for a fence?
	How big is this property?
	Are you Texas? It's about an acre and a half.
	And to fence the whole thing in with metal versus the plastic pipes, it would be upwards of $30,000.
	Okay, so it's like a whole side of the acre and a half is roadway?
	Yeah, so our front door goes out right off a side road that's extremely close to a main road.
	And so within, you know, 40 steps, he would be on a road that has probably a thousand cars that go by today.
	Got it. Okay. I mean, that obviously is very serious stuff, and I understand that.
	Okay. Sure. Sure.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I'm sorry. I don't mean to talk over you.
	I've expressed to him not to go outside.
	I explain why. Not just, hey, this is because I said so.
	Like, hey, there's cars. It's dangerous.
	They can't see you. Sometimes they can hit you and you can get hurt.
	And so don't go outside without it.
	And then, you know, he still runs outside.
	And I get he's excited. He's a little boy and all that.
	But I don't know how to handle situations like that.
	Right. Okay. Okay.
	So one of the first principles of peaceful parenting is it's all about prevention, not cure.
	Sure. Right?
	So who is responsible for your child not being able to open a front door that could lead to traffic?
	Me. Right.
	So you say, well, he's big enough to undo the lock.
	Is that right? Yeah.
	Since then, we've got a latch really high up, so we've solved that issue.
	Assuming that we keep the door closed, which is, again, on me and my wife.
	Okay, so if you think that your kids are disobeying when you have failed to keep them safe, I think that's the wrong mindset, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, I agree with that.
	So, prevention is, you know, I mean, to take a silly example, if, you know, when my daughter was three months old, if I lectured her not to go near any stairs, that wouldn't make any sense, right?
	I would have to make sure I had a gate so she couldn't go down the stairs, right?
	So, would you suggest then just creating an environment where dangerous, like disobedience like that is more difficult, so we don't get in that situation?
	No, no, hang on.
	What I would say is that even the concept of disobedience for a three-year-old is odd.
	I mean, he's three.
	Right? He...
	I mean, the concept of obedience and disobedience...
	Is, I think, premature for three-year-olds.
	Okay. Right?
	Because here's the problem.
	If you classify it as disobedience, you're going to get angry.
	Because what you're going to do, and I was really struck by the way you put it here, and I say this with all sympathy, right?
	It's not some big judgment thing.
	But you said, like, he looked at me, and you see the machinery turning in his brain, right?
	Which is, to heck with that.
	I'm bailing. I'm out, right?
	I'm going. Pleasure, homo.
	Right, right, right, right.
	So, uh, peace out.
	Right? So you can see him evaluating, right?
	And all he's doing is he's evaluating, at that age, he's evaluating positive and negative consequences.
	Okay. Right?
	He's like, well, I really want to go outside.
	Dad's not going to get too mad, so I'm out, right?
	Okay. And the problem is then, if you say, generally, if you say, well, he can't go outside, he has to obey me, and deep down you kind of get that it's not an obedience-disobedience thing, but it's more like consequences, then you'll say, well, now I have to apply negative consequences, i.e. punishment, in order to shift the equation to him doing what I want.
	Does that make sense? Yes.
	And I think that's not a great mindset.
	It's certainly not a mindset to get into with regards to peaceful parenting, right?
	So, rather than obedience, disobedience, It is my job to limit his choices to those that are mostly safe, not all safe all the time, but it's my job to limit his choices to that which is, you know, if you put a three-year-old in front of a buffet full of celery sticks and M&Ms, right, what's he going to do?
	M&Ms. You can't like them.
	Yeah, and are you going to sit there and say, no, no, no, Daddy really wants you to do the celery sticks.
	And he's just going to be like, he's going to wait until your back is turned, right?
	What's he going to do? He's going to face blunt into the M&Ms, right?
	Yes. So you've got to limit the buffet of his choices to that which is acceptable to you.
	Okay. So if he has the opportunity to go outside, he'll take it, if that's what he wants to do.
	And it's your job, I think, as a parent to try and limit his choices to that which is acceptable.
	Safe enough. Not perfectly safe, because perfectly safe is dangerous just in another way.
	So yeah, you just have to plan for the environment, right?
	It's the old thing that if you have a coffee table with death shop corners and you say, don't run around the coffee table, it's like, guess what?
	They're going to run around the coffee table because they're kids, right?
	So you have to take the coffee table and regretfully, sadly, put it in storage until they get older, right?
	Or put those bumpers on it.
	Yeah, something like that, right?
	So generally, if the child can choose something that is dangerous, it's the parent's job.
	Like, you know, you turn the handles on the pots of boiling water, you turn the handles away so the kids can't grab them, right?
	Rather than just screaming at them.
	I'm not saying you would scream, but, you know, there's a panic if they start Grab the pots of boiling water.
	So it's your job to keep them away from that kind of situation.
	So it's all about prevention.
	Sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry.
	Do you think that to me, the only appropriate time to yell is in an emergency situation?
	Like if we are...
	Near a road, let's say we're walking, and he runs ahead of me, and there's a car.
	I yell, stop! No! Would you agree that's the only acceptable time in an emergency to spanger, at least in that context?
	Obviously, whatever you have to do to keep your kid from running into traffic, you do.
	But you have to recognize that as a failure on the part of the parent to be in that situation in the first place.
	So you guys didn't get a latch and your kid knows how to open the latch.
	So yeah, I mean, sure, I guess you can yell, stop.
	Absolutely.
	But even being that that's not a problem with your kid.
	That's a problem with parents.
	100%.
	Getting into that situation.
	So it's not disobedience on the part of the kid, right?
	Any more than it's a big problem if you put celery and M&Ms out and your kid eats all the M&Ms.
	It's like, well, of course he does.
	Because he's a kid, right? I mean, I'm an adult, I'll still sometimes make bad food choices, right?
	So it really is, you've got to limit the buffet to what is good for your kids, if that makes sense.
	Yes. What about, here's another example, you know, his one and a half year old brother, he's, him and obviously the older brother play a lot, they interact a lot, and there'll be situations, and maybe it's I don't think it's quite every day, but my wife is with them more than I am.
	You know, I work and she stays at home with them mostly.
	And that the older one will push the little one down or take his toy or sometimes even like slap him in the face or something like that.
	How do you deal with situations like that?
	Well, I mean, that's a big question.
	Sure, they'll be seemingly, I'm sorry, I stopped and then I interrupted you, but they'll be seemingly playing along well and everything's going nice, and then suddenly the older one will either take his toy or just push him over for fun, or get frustrated with the little one, or maybe the little one tries to take the big one's toy and the big one slaps him in the face.
	So in that situation, what do you think?
	Well, I mean, my first question, and I mean, they're little boys, so they're both boys, right?
	Yeah. Yes, yes. So they're little boys.
	Look, I'm afraid there's just going to be some simian aggression at that age.
	That's a thing, right?
	You did it, I did it, like everybody did it.
	But my first question would be...
	Have they seen or experienced, or how much have they seen or experienced any form of aggression in their environment?
	So, I'm thinking here, I'm being honest, even though it's, you know, it's shameful.
	I have maybe three different times lashed out at the oldest one by, like, pinching him.
	And I'm trying to even think of the scenario.
	One of the times...
	And this is, again, totally a failure on my part, but the child lock was not functioning properly.
	And I'm on the interstate, and my oldest one, who's three again, starts opening the door and realizes he can open the door.
	And I kept telling him, stop, stop.
	And then I raised my voice.
	He didn't do it. And so then I pinched his leg.
	Like, I reached around and pinched his leg.
	That was one instance where I used violence.
	And... I've spanked him once over the last three years.
	I think I've spanked him twice.
	I can't even remember the situation where I did.
	Wait, what do you mean you can't remember?
	Can't remember the situation?
	No, I really am trying to remember why.
	I was angry about something, him being disobedient, and I can't even remember.
	That shows you how trivial it was.
	And so, again, it's shameful to admit that, but that did occur.
	On three different occasions that I can remember it occurring, but I don't recall the specifics of why I even did it.
	Okay. And listen, we'll bookmark this with the one exception that I would ask the question.
	So you're driving and the child locks aren't working or they're not set or something like that.
	Is that right? Correct. Okay.
	And you're on the interstate.
	I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't pull over to the shoulder or exit or fix the problem that way.
	You're correct. I should have just pulled over immediately.
	And I did. I did shortly after that.
	Yeah, because Pinching could have gone the other way.
	He could have been like, I'm out, right?
	Sure. No, that was incredibly irresponsible of me.
	Well, listen, I hugely appreciate that you're calling and I hugely appreciate your commitment.
	So there's nothing negative in anything I'm going to say here, obviously, right?
	So I'm not trying to put you in the wrong and make you feel bad or anything like I'm genuinely thrilled to be having this conversation.
	So, let's just go back a little bit.
	You said your childhood was pretty good, and of course I'm perfectly happy to accept that.
	But tell me a little bit about how you were disciplined as a kid.
	Very horribly. Wait, wait, you just told me you had a pretty good childhood!
	Well, okay. In terms of spanking, it was bad.
	I did the...
	Oh, you mean except for the violence and assaults?
	It was great. Yeah, exactly.
	No, it's a great marriage except for me beating up my wife.
	Yeah, it's wonderful. Good points.
	I can go into a 30-second summary or a two-minute or whatever you would like me to do.
	I'm never shy for more detail.
	Okay, sure. So...
	When I say good, my mom read to me a lot.
	They were very sweet. I grew up in the country on a farm.
	I was homeschooled. We took road trips quite a bit.
	My dad was present.
	My parents were married. I had four siblings.
	But I was spanked.
	And it bothered me a lot.
	And it still bothers me.
	And I don't even know to the extent of it, but I remember one time where I was still in diapers.
	I was so little. And my dad was upset with me.
	And I don't even remember why, again, why he was upset with me.
	But he said he was going to beat me with a belt.
	And he took me in the bathroom and he beat me.
	And I was so happy because I had a diaper on.
	And so it didn't hurt as bad.
	And he didn't realize I had a diaper on.
	He would have probably made me take it off.
	And so... That's one vivid memory I have.
	Hang on, brother. I'm sure you've listened to these call-in shows before, right?
	Sure. And I'm sure you've heard the following statement from me, like, why are you trying to draw me into laughter land about beating a kid, a baby, really, or a toddler in a diaper with a belt?
	Like, you're kind of laughing about it, right?
	Like, you're trying to invite me into this goofy comedy world of where you attack children this way.
	I do this whenever I'm upset or in this difficult situation.
	And I don't know how to, if there's a way to overcome this, because this is definitely a limitation of my communication ability, then I would love to.
	But this is something that happens.
	I mean, look, it's a fundamental question.
	And again, no criticism. It's a fundamental question of, can you really have more empathy for your kids than you do for yourself as a child?
	Can you have more empathy for your kids than you did for yourself as a child?
	Than you do currently for yourself as a child.
	Like, for instance, I'm sure you've got a fine babysitter, but if you came home and your babysitter was beating one of your children with a belt, your youngest, a year and a half, right, was hitting your youngest sibling.
	Sorry, if your babysitter was hitting your youngest child with a belt, would you be laughing about it as you told the story?
	No. Well, I mean, I'm a philosopher, a universalist guy, right?
	So why is your youngest child worthy of protection and outrage at being assaulted?
	And for you, it's funny.
	When you're the same age and that's what happened to you.
	And this also may be the wrong mindset, but in general, I try to be more difficult on myself than I am on others.
	No, no. We can talk about that too, but this is opposite.
	It's appalling if I find a babysitter beating my one-and-a-half-year-old kid, but it's funny for me.
	This isn't just being more hard on you.
	This is like opposite land.
	Yes. Well, there's no scenario I can think of where I wouldn't be enraged and intervene immediately.
	Or if I was retelling it, I would not be laughing about it.
	Right. And, of course, you'd fire the babysitter.
	You might even press charges. Like, who knows, right?
	Sure. Well, it's unfortunately illegal in America, as you know, to hit children.
	I don't know if you're allowed to hit babies with belts.
	Oh, all right. Well, I don't know about that.
	I wonder if it was legal when I was a child or it happened as well.
	That's probably an edge case, to put it mildly.
	Okay. All right. So...
	Why is it terrible to happen to your little boy?
	Can I say one other? Yeah, go ahead.
	I've listened to more of your content, whether it's videos or listening sometimes, than any other thing I can even think of.
	I truly appreciate it.
	You've been tremendously influential and helpful in demystifying things that should be simple, but society tries to...
	If they're south of the street, a bus cake.
	So I have even approached my parents, specifically my dad.
	There's been a couple instances I remember my mom.
	And I know people are easier on women, which I really dislike, the double standard.
	But I definitely do remember my dad doing that type of behavior to me more often.
	And I remember I approached him, this was maybe a couple years ago, about specifically the one I told you about him beating me when I was in a diaper.
	And he looks at me and he kind of chuckles and says, that didn't happen.
	You just made that up.
	I would never do that.
	And I said, I remember this vividly.
	I even remember the room of the house we were in and both, you know, where I was at and where he took me to in the bathroom.
	He goes, no, that didn't happen. You made that up.
	And it's very, it makes me angry at my dad as well.
	And it's, I'm just, I'm thinking out loud at this point.
	That's what I wanted to say. And does he remember any of the, I mean, so let's get to the prevalence of spanking.
	How often did it happen when you were young?
	I mean, I don't know if this is my brain blocking out or what, but I think it was a pretty frequent occurrence, like multiple times a week.
	Holy crap. And obviously from very young when you were a baby until, when did it taper off?
	When you hit puberty? Uh, probably, yes.
	Yeah, so of course when you got big enough to fight back, magically he finds other solutions than hitting you, right?
	Hello, can you hear me? Yeah, there we go.
	Alright, I don't know what happened.
	I apologize, but... That's fine.
	Yeah, well, can I say one other...
	It's your call. You don't have to ask me.
	I'm not your dad. You don't have to ask me.
	Just tell me. Thanks. Appreciate it.
	I've literally never told a single other person about this because my mother told me not to tell anybody when this happened, but it was very traumatizing and I'd like to share it.
	One time my mother and I were building a chicken pen.
	We had a staple gun. We were stapling up like The mesh wire around an enclosure for the chickens.
	And we were, I was like 10, we were arguing about something and I think I said something to her that obviously upset her and I started walking away and she threw the staple gun at my head and it didn't go off but it hit my head and my head was bleeding.
	And, you know, I put a bandage on my head and then, yeah, and that did happen as well.
	I've remembered that, obviously, ever since then, and it has bothered me.
	What did your mother say at this point of the incident?
	After it happened, like, almost immediately she was apologetic and, again, asked me not to tell anyone.
	Hmm. So she was apologetic.
	Did your mother use any other forms of aggression against you when you were a kid?
	Well, she also spanked me.
	And your father spanked you a couple of times a week.
	What about your mom? Probably once a week.
	And she was with me way more often.
	But also part of it is, as these memories are coming back, If both my parents were around, my mother would tell my dad to spank me as well.
	Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I get that.
	That's quite common. You know, there was even a show when I was a kid called Wait Till Your Father Gets Home.
	It was animated.
	Gosh, that's...
	I guess, you know, that's really analogous of the women using the state to...
	Oh, yeah, yeah. That's very true.
	That's very true. All right.
	So I'm just going to do a little math here, right?
	So spank four times a week times 52 weeks.
	So that's 208...
	Beatings or hitting a year times, let's say, 12 years from maybe 1 to 13.
	So you got hit or spanked or assaulted almost 2,500 times as a child.
	Yeah, that sounds about right.
	Like, holy crap, I'm so sorry.
	And were you hit?
	Bare buttocks, hands, implements, what happened?
	Belt. Almost always a belt.
	Belt. On bare skin or trousers?
	Pants, sorry. Well, both though.
	Mostly it was with my pants on, but it was very painful.
	Wow, I'm so sorry.
	I mean, you had it worse than me in many ways.
	Oh, it's tough.
	I'm really sorry. I just don't know how to handle it.
	I wish my parents, when I talk to them about this, would just say they were sorry they did it, so I could forgive them, but it's hard to forgive them when they're not even sorry it happened.
	So, what happens when you do talk to them about this just appalling stuff?
	They just downplay it or act like it didn't happen.
	Or it's a good thing. Oh, the Bible says to do it.
	And I'll tell them, it's not what the verse says.
	It says, I mean, the rod of discipline, not the physical beating.
	The rod is instruction.
	Yeah, it's teaching, moral instruction.
	It's not beating. Yeah.
	That's what they either justify or just act like it wasn't a big deal.
	It didn't happen at all. I'm so sorry.
	Like, my heart goes at you, brother.
	It's absolutely appalling and absolutely...
	Anti-Christian. I mean, Jesus said, whatever you do to the least among you, you do unto me.
	And whoever harms the children, it's better that a millstone be put around his neck.
	Like, he had the death penalty for child harming.
	And then these Christian apologists say that somehow Jesus says, beat your kids.
	It's terrible. There's another verse they bring up.
	I don't know if it's in Proverbs, but it'll say...
	It says something to the effect of, oh, if you beat them with the rod, it will not kill them.
	And so they'll say, well, no, see, it does mean an actual physical stick, not just the rod of discipline.
	Yes, it is true that beating doesn't kill children.
	I don't know how that means that beating is recommended.
	Yeah, if you beat the child, he will not die.
	Yeah, and the other...
	I'm going to try to say this without crying again.
	Listen, I don't care about the tears.
	Honestly, that's totally fine with me.
	Don't feel bad about that.
	There's something to cry about.
	It's this. I guess no one else was there to protect me or cry for me, so it's coming out now.
	The other thing that It really bothers me tremendously.
	It still affects me in adulthood.
	I was generally mutilated.
	I was circumcised as a child.
	It has physically...
	I don't have a ton of sensitivity.
	I just assume it's because of being circumcised.
	I've even gotten my dad to watch Part of your Truth About Circumcision video, and you were the catalyst for changing my mind on that, because I guess of Stockholm Syndrome, you know, I believe, oh, it's cleaner, or all this other nonsense.
	Even if it's not required anymore, it's still good to do.
	And thank God, thank God, I woke up to that, you know, over a decade ago.
	Whenever you came up with that video.
	And so both of my kids are fully intact.
	But I was circumcised.
	And... I've told my parents, even my mom as well, that's how much it bothers me.
	I've told them even, really my dad, I don't think I've told my mother, just because it's also kind of embarrassing, but I physically don't have a ton of sensitivity because of that.
	So it impairs normal sexual function.
	And they literally will just laugh about it.
	And my brother as well, who I've tried to get him to watch the video and all that.
	He won't do it. We'll have family gatherings, like Thanksgiving or some birthday, and he'll bring it up and just make a joke about it.
	And it's just so hurtful.
	No, I'm really sorry for that, too.
	With regards to the sexual functioning, is it like...
	Lower sensation, erectile dysfunction, inability to orgasm.
	I mean, is it stuff like that?
	Yes, it's lower sensation and inability to orgasm, frequently.
	I've been told, oh, you know, this is taking too long, essentially, like the opposite problem,
	I guess, of most guys.
	Right. Yeah, I've been told, you're too big and you'll have stool, which is not a bad thing, I guess, you know, for a guy to hear.
	But again, it's, yeah, it's lack of sensitivity.
	I am sorry.
	I am sorry. I mean, I've obviously talked to a number of men over the years where the circumcision has gone quite awry.
	And I mean, at least you didn't have that kind of physical damage, but that is very tough.
	That is very tough. Yeah. What is your relationship like with your parents at the moment?
	It's interesting.
	I used to be in the same business.
	My father got me into his business, which is a form of sales.
	I was very good at that.
	I was the number one salesman for this one major company in the country.
	That was cool. We worked together, but I just...
	I used to say he was the only person ever that could really make me upset.
	Because, and maybe it's just, I don't know, from the relationship we had when I was a child, but he would just get me so angry.
	And I'm really not an angry person, generally.
	Like, I almost never, I can't think of the last time I raised my voice, except when it was an emergency.
	Well, no, I did, like, four years ago, once with my wife.
	But, you know, four years ago was the last time I raised my voice, except for some type of, like, emergency situation.
	But he would just make me so He would just talk down to me and just mock me.
	He would mimic the way I talk, or he'd mock my laugh, or he'd just do stuff like that.
	It would really be hurtful.
	Maybe that's silly.
	No, no, no. Not at all silly.
	Okay. And the other thing was, my oldest brother, I'm really close to him now.
	This is the same brother that would mock the whole circumcision thing, but other than that, that's like a big thing.
	But we're pretty close now.
	But anyhow, back to my parents, I went into a different industry as an adult and just went off.
	I just could not work with him anymore because it just made me so upset And my mother, part of the, when I work with my dad, he got me into this business, but he really, the business agreement that we had, you know, I'm 18, I get into this, was he would get half of everything, every sale I made, which is actually really uncommon in this industry.
	Typically, in situations, like he would get like 15%, but he was getting 50%.
	Which, I mean, I'm just making that point.
	Just so you know, when I was in the software business world, the most highly complex sales would max out at 40%.
	Okay.
	All right. Well...
	Okay, well, this was an insurance, and, like, if you have an upline that helps you, usually it's like 15%, and then he was taking 50, which, again, I didn't, even after I figured out, well, this is kind of a sucky deal, I didn't really say too much, because I like the idea I'm helping my family, and I'm working with them and everything else.
	And I remember, I'm pretty, I'm kind of a workaholic in a lot of ways, and I'll even resist, like, Going home after five because I feel like I have the obligation to keep working.
	This is even nowadays.
	I remember when I was working with my dad, one time I was really sick.
	We had a home office.
	My parents, I was maybe 19 or 20 at the time.
	I had the flu or something.
	I'm laying on the couch. Just in really bad pain.
	And my mom comes in. And I was even in my work clothes because I was still trying to muscle through it.
	I just couldn't handle it. I laid down.
	It was like 10 in the morning.
	My mom comes in and says, what are you doing?
	Right now, there's a field here that's ready to be harvested.
	And you're just laying there.
	What are you doing? And so I got up and I went out to Selmore.
	And so...
	Partially because of all of that.
	And also, I wanted to get into this other industry, which was real estate.
	And so I started doing that on the side.
	And then as it got more, I just stopped doing insurance altogether.
	And all this was because you asked me my relationship with them currently.
	So about four years ago, I actually got them into real estate, maybe three years ago.
	It was 2020, so about three years ago.
	And they were...
	They had no money at all, and I got them into it.
	Now they're doing really well. I talk with my mother maybe every day about business things.
	I live not too far from my parents.
	They only live about maybe 10 minutes away.
	My wife is from Poland, and so her family's all over in Poland.
	I don't have any other family within an hour of where I live.
	My kids love their grandparents.
	They'll ask to see them or talk to them.
	I'll try to set stuff up like that for them to see them.
	They never want to do it.
	They're like, no, we're too busy.
	We have jobs. No, we can't do that.
	Even on the weekends, I'm tired.
	I've got some other stuff I want to do.
	So, I feel like I try to put in effort, and maybe I shouldn't, maybe.
	And I've gotten to that point where I'm contacting him less, other than work with my mother.
	I've refused to talk to my dad about anything work-related.
	And so...
	Sorry, you refused to talk to your dad about what?
	Anything work-related.
	Okay, got it. Yeah, because it's...
	He will just get angry and demean me, and he'll act like...
	Like, literally, right after I got him into...
	Real estate. We bought a couple of properties together.
	And we had, you know, obviously, like any business, things come up and you have to address them.
	And so I'm saying, okay, yeah, we got to do this and this.
	And my dad's like, no, no, that's stupid.
	We're going to do this way. I said, what are you talking about?
	I've been doing this for seven years and you've never, you've not done this at all.
	This is how we have to, no, no, we have to do it this way.
	And literally, okay, this one person quit, who I was about to fire, who was managing some properties.
	Behind my back, he goes and begs them to come back.
	And so they come back.
	I'm sorry, are you sharing the business?
	Yes, because I had purchased, I got them into real estate by purchasing properties with them, with my mother jointly.
	My father's not even on the deed.
	But my father would say, we try to get involved in how it's going to be managed and everything else.
	So sorry, you're basically in business with your parents?
	Yes. Yes. With my mother, because again, I won't talk to my father about it.
	I mean, she may talk to him, but I don't even discuss anything business with him anymore.
	I refuse to do it.
	Okay. Okay.
	So, sorry. I'm sorry. I just wanted to make sure I understood that, but please go ahead.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	No, no. I understood. Yeah.
	I am... And my mother is a pretty good businesswoman.
	She's pretty stern and focused and hardworking and driven and all that.
	So, I mean, that's not been too bad working with her as an adult, which has only been within the last three years, really.
	But personal-wise, I mean, we have holidays together and things like that.
	But they have no interest in really seeing their grandchildren, which I'm the youngest of five.
	They have seven other grandchildren.
	And so, again, I'm not trying to make excuses for them, but in my mind, and my dad's even made like half-joking comments like, oh, I've already had seven grandkids, that's enough.
	And just not interested in seeing them or spending time with him, which, again, I've stopped trying to make that happen, and I'm just hoping my kids will stop, you know, I don't know, ask about them less.
	I can hold off on my question if you're mid-thought.
	It's totally fine to have you finish that.
	One other thing I'll say is my wife's parents, again, they live in Poland.
	We go there a couple times a year for them to see them and for her to see her family, of course.
	They're just so happy every time.
	They have jobs as well.
	They work a lot. But every time we're there, they watch them like They want to be with them the whole time.
	We're there. Whether it's two weeks or not, they want them the whole time.
	And so one time when I asked my dad, hey, do you want to go to this trampoline park with us?
	And, oh, no, I don't feel like it.
	And I made the comment, I said, man, I said, you know, her parents have watched them more, spent more time with them than you guys have.
	And they live an ocean away and you live 10 minutes away.
	Well, we have jobs.
	So do her parents. And then he's got mad and hung up.
	Wait, he hung up on you when you had some criticism?
	Correct. Holy crap.
	Anyway, so go ahead. Well, I just wanted to point that out.
	I mean, her parents, they're nice and all that.
	They love seeing them, but my parents have no interest in me.
	What does your wife say about your parents?
	Oh, in what sense?
	In this specific sense?
	No, I mean, just as old, what does she think about them and your relationship with them and their relationship with her children and so on?
	She does not understand why they don't want to spend time with their grandchildren.
	You know, Poland is more traditional.
	And my parents are, I mean, my family is more traditional than most.
	Again, I was homeschooled and raised in the middle of nowhere and all of that.
	So it's kind of odd.
	But yeah, but her parents are, Poland's way more traditional.
	And she's like, well, I don't understand why they don't want to see their grandchildren.
	And they clearly love them.
	And I mean, you get to make time for your family and things like that.
	Like boomer templates, you know?
	Yeah, exactly. And I'll even tell my mom, I said, listen, because now she kind of manages all the properties we own, which is quite a few.
	I mean, we have about 130 different units across a few different bigger properties together.
	And then my parents on their own have about 47 others.
	And so it's definitely a full-time job.
	And I told her, because I own and manage over about 2,700 people.
	And I told her, I said, listen, I said, I can just hire somebody just to do the stuff that we have.
	And it's all local. It's all within 40 minutes of where we live.
	And she said, oh, no, I like doing it.
	It's not that big a deal.
	But then that's the excuse.
	She was like, oh, no, we have jobs.
	We can't spend time with them.
	And so I was like, well, just say you don't want to spend time with them.
	And I haven't told them that, but it's, oh, no, we love them.
	Well, you say that, but then show it.
	It's confusing to me, and my wife has the same opinion.
	Again, maybe I should just embrace this.
	Like, okay, great. Well, they hit me as a child, so it's good that they don't want to see their grandchildren, because I don't want them to hit them, but I don't know.
	Again, I don't want to interrupt, so...
	No, that's my full thought at the moment.
	Okay, my jaw is kind of on the floor as a whole, because I'm really having a tough time processing what you're saying.
	It could be my limitation completely, so bear with me as I try and understand this situation.
	What's your age range?
	Are you in your 30s, 20s?
	28. 28, okay.
	When did you move out from home?
	What age were you? I think 21 or 22.
	I had purchased... An office.
	And I just live in one of the rooms because, you know, I like the personal freedom and not being in my parents' house.
	Just because they're very intrusive in a lot of ways.
	So, what do you want?
	Can I say one other thing?
	The more I think about it, the more messed up it gets.
	Well, then you're joining me on my confusion, but go ahead.
	Sure. Well, I really feel like, I feel it's about work.
	From my experience, my parents have never respected me up until they very barely now respect me in a business sense just because of seeing success and me helping them get success.
	But they have never respected me In any way outside, again, limited in business.
	So one example that was incredibly embarrassing for me was I had very few friends growing up.
	The only place I could see people would be like church.
	I was in martial arts, so that was nice.
	But it was mostly older kids.
	So I just had very limited interactions with people my age.
	Uh, and I'm pretty introverted, so I know it's mostly genetic, but I do think part of, part of it was just my upbringing.
	And so, one night I had, I had one friend that I met from, from work, but we were, we were friends.
	And he had a friend that he introduced me to.
	How old were you here? Oh, this was like, oh, I was 25, maybe like three or 24, a few years ago.
	Um, maybe not even that far.
	It was, it was like maybe three years ago because my, my firstborn was, was already alive.
	So, so, uh, My wife, my friend, his friend, and I are all watching a movie at my house.
	And this was one of maybe less than seven times my parents had agreed to watch my one child.
	Again, I live seven minutes away, but I'm not obligated to watch my kid, but they agreed to.
	So I'm at...
	We're watching a movie in my house.
	I don't have my phone on.
	It's on silent. So we watched the movie.
	We're sitting around. We're talking for like...
	It couldn't have been longer than half an hour after the movie was over.
	And it was only like 9, 9.30.
	I wasn't super late. And my dad comes to my house.
	He knew the code because he was the same code I had at my office to get in my house.
	He comes in my house.
	Again, I have guests over. He doesn't even know.
	And he starts yelling at me in front of these people.
	What is wrong with you?
	I have been trying to call you.
	And we have your son.
	And you haven't come and picked him up yet.
	And he just went on and on.
	Just yelling at me.
	In my own house.
	He comes in my house and just screaming at me in front of people.
	He doesn't even know. It just was so embarrassing for me.
	And I'm sure because of this, that never happened again.
	It just never materialized after that, any of these friends coming over to watch a movie after that.
	And what happened when he did that?
	I went outside and I talked to him, and I was upset.
	I was like, don't yell at me.
	Don't yell at me in my house.
	And I said, it's not that late.
	My phone was on silent.
	What's the big deal? We're not watching him all night.
	You should have already come to get him.
	And so I left and got him, and then they left.
	You know, it's funny.
	My dad, it's not funny.
	My dad, I think he truly believes, because he'll say it like he's joking, but when you press him, he actually means that he's never wrong.
	He's never wrong. Whatever he says, he's always in the right, and he's the greatest person in the world.
	And the only times he's ever apologized are when my mother will guilt him into it.
	And so afterwards, maybe the next day I called my mother, said, what was that about?
	And, oh, well, you know, he was upset because, and I said, you know, that was just, it was awful.
	It was such an awful experience. And then he called me like, well, sorry for doing that.
	You know, that was inappropriate, but you really should have got him, you know, you should have got him.
	Yeah, sorry, but is never a sorry.
	Yeah, exactly. And, and, and, yeah, I, Yeah, so that's that story.
	And again, as I think through things, I know my mother has a tendency to behind the scenes kind of goad my father on.
	So it could have been a situation where she said, it's already this time and they're not back yet.
	I mean, that's really not right.
	I've got to tell you, listening to you imitate your parents is really quite eerie.
	So accurate.
	Yes, okay. But we've had similar experiences.
	It's funny because I'm wiping tears from my eyes because I was at the eye doctor earlier.
	They put this yellow solution to look for defects.
	So I'm crying yellow streams like I'm some anime character or something.
	Wow. Eye urine is achieved.
	Or urine. Yes, exactly.
	Or urine. All right.
	Is there more that you want to say?
	That's the extent of interactions I've had with my parents that come to mind.
	Okay. Now, listen, I'm not trying to interrupt you or stop you.
	I just... Sure. I have some thoughts or questions, but I want to make sure that you've got what you need to off your chest, at least at the moment.
	Sure. Yes, I have.
	And I appreciate that. I will...
	If I accidentally ask you, I apologize.
	No, no, listen, you're not doing anything wrong.
	I want to hear, and I don't want to interrupt.
	And I don't want my questions to shoulder aside your side of the conversation, because this show is about you, right?
	Sure. Well, I appreciate that.
	So I don't have any other thoughts at the moment.
	I'd love to hear your thoughts.
	I know it's a question so what is it that you're looking for from your parents at the moment.
	I think family is important.
	you Like if there's any objective or one of maybe a couple objective things, it is to have children and to raise them in a loving way.
	And I think part of that ideally would have extended family that also loves them and they get to see.
	So it's not just mom and dad.
	And of course, obviously, Okay, not your sentimentality and ideas and abstracts, and wouldn't it be nice if?
	Your actual parents.
	Not the ones in your head that are great-grandparents, or whatever you're talking about here.
	Your actual flesh-and-blood, empirical evidence of 28 years' parents.
	I guess it's like when I'm with them.
	If I'm with them when my kids are around, which is almost every time, because they never want to see them.
	They're typically nice and they'll talk to them or play with them some.
	And so it's...
	I don't know if it's a biological thing or what, but then they'll ask for them later on.
	And of course, they do the same thing with their babysitter.
	So maybe it's just there's someone that's giving them attention so they like them.
	But they like them and I think it would be good if they had a healthy relationship with their grandparents.
	But I don't know if that's possible.
	But that's at least the idea I have in my mind would be good if they have a relationship with them.
	So here's why I'm asking. Sure.
	My question way back at the beginning was, why doesn't your son listen to you?
	Yes. Would you like to know why?
	I would like to know why.
	Because he looks at you as low status.
	So he looks at you, that look he gave you before he went out, that's him processing your status.
	You really think that he can comprehend it?
	Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
	One of the first things that, I mean, you know, the pecking order, your siblings are going through it right now.
	Pecking order is one of the first things that kids try and figure out.
	So your son looks at you, Has low status in some ways.
	I'm not saying, of course, in every way or fundamentally.
	And I could be wrong about this.
	I'll just tell you sort of my reasoning behind it.
	If... I don't know.
	Who's your son's biggest hero?
	Who's his biggest...
	Like, is it Transformer?
	Is it... I don't know. Who is his son's most treasured person outside of the family?
	But we've...
	And we very rarely let him watch any type of media.
	He liked Paw Patrol, but we've kind of just secretly gotten rid of the Paw Patrol toys
	and things like that.
	And he hasn't really asked about it because the producers hired a tranny as one of the
	producers, and so that did not sit well with me.
	So that ended.
	Okay, so if he doesn't have any particular kind of hero, like for me, when I was a kid,
	Superman was high status for me, right?
	So if you imagine, if Superman had come down when I was a three-year-old and said, don't open that door, son, right, what would I do?
	You wouldn't open the door.
	I wouldn't open the door because he's super high status.
	And so, I'm just talking about my parenting here, and I think it translates, so let me know.
	I have been very studious, I've been very assiduous in making sure my daughter does not see me in low-status situations.
	Because when I say to my daughter, stop, I want her to stop, not because she's obeying me in some sort of fundamental way, But it's out of respect.
	Yes. Now, when a son has trouble listening to his father at that age, in my view, it's almost always a status issue.
	Okay. So, my next question was going to be, and I guess you've answered it, is, does your son see you around your parents?
	Yes. And of course, he does.
	As you say, they don't really spend much time with your kids on their own.
	So both of your sons see you around your parents, right?
	Yes. You said your son was born when your father came in and yelled at you, right?
	He was asleep. Well, no, he wasn't asleep.
	He was with them at the time. So he left him at my parents' house when he came to yell at me, because he only lives seven minutes away.
	Right. So without a doubt, and how old was your son at this point?
	Oh, he wouldn't have been older than six months old.
	Right, okay. And how often do your kids spend time with your parents when you're not around?
	When I'm not around, I mean, very infrequently.
	Maybe once every couple months.
	Maybe. And...
	Are there any signs, if you were to be looking at it like an anthropologist, right?
	Because that's what kids are.
	They're anthropologists of the social environment, right?
	And the reason that kids need to figure out status is they need to know how assertive or aggressive they can be.
	Sure. Because if your father is very low status...
	That's going to have you have, like, I mean, let's take a sort of severe example from history.
	If your father is a king, you end up acting one way.
	If your father is a slave, you end up acting another way, as a kid.
	Like, you have to figure out where your father is in the pecking order.
	Sure. Now, when your parents are around, does your son see any indication that they have low or no respect for you, or negative contempt for you?
	I'm sure, I'm certain they've seen, I mean, because again, it would be like holidays where they could be talking down to me or arguing with me or my dad, again, he'll belittle me.
	And so I'm sure your your sons are seeing you pushed around bullied and belittled and taking it and
	Asking them back for more And then you wonder why your son looks at you and says oh
	man, I don't have to listen to this guy You
	Thank you.
	you you
	You can't let your children see you in a low status situation, because then they don't
	respect you as an authority figure.
	Because that was my first question.
	And look, I mean, I've obviously been imperfect as a parent, so I'm not trying to lord it over, but my daughter, if I say stop, she'll stop.
	And she always has.
	Now, of course, she disagrees with me, and I'm far from perfect as a parent, but as far as that goes, she does respect that I have status and authority, because I don't let myself be in situations where people bully me.
	Sure. And that's why I don't...
	Okay, wait, wait.
	So, we're not connecting at some emotional level here because you're still in abstract land.
	Okay. So, do you see what I mean?
	Like, you have presented yourself as a person to be disrespected, held in contempt, and bullied by your village elders in front of your sons.
	Yes. How do you feel about that?
	How do I feel about them doing it to me or me allowing my son to see it?
	Well, we already know how you feel about them doing it to you, but the effect it has on your sons.
	Not good. Do you want to know why your eldest boy is pushing and hitting your baby?
	Because he sees my father...
	Verbally doing it to me.
	Because children, especially sons, who do they model themselves after in any social environment?
	Who do they try to emulate?
	Who do they try to become? The alpha man?
	Yeah. The most powerful person in the environment is who they will be.
	So your father is parenting your children in some ways even more than you are.
	You think even, again, let's say once every Couple months seeing them, that is enough to have that big of an impact on them?
	Sorry, I thought that it was only once every couple of months that they saw them alone.
	No, that's correct. And I guess, yeah, I probably see them then.
	We see each other maybe a couple times a month.
	We'll go out to lunch if they're going out to lunch.
	Oh, that absolutely is more than enough.
	Okay. And you do holidays, right?
	Yes. And your son, though he may not understand all of the words, so he probably understands a bunch, probably hears you complaining about your parents, probably hears you on the phone begging them to see the kids, or even if it's in another room, he can hear the tone.
	So he hears you pleading and being low status.
	Yes, that's correct. I mean, I had a call with a guy years ago who was a dog owner whose dogs were perfectly well-behaved, except once he was at his father's place, his father yelled at him, he put up with it, and his dogs bit him on the way home.
	Wow. That's wild.
	That one interaction. One interaction.
	that they witness.
	you Yes. So, why are you trying to make the people rich who beat you 2,500 times?
	That's what I'm trying to figure out.
	What are you trying to get from your parents that you're like, well, it's true you beat me, you hold me in contempt, you put me down, you yell at me, you humiliate me, but hey, maybe I could make you all millionaires?
	Yeah, which is happening.
	What the hell is going on? Yeah.
	Maybe it's...
	No, no. Don't maybe me.
	No, don't maybe me. You know what the answer to this is.
	Don't fog me, bro. What is the answer?
	What are you trying to do? What are you trying to get here?
	If I make them rich, they love me?
	Yeah, make them respect me.
	Or take me seriously. So your parents are bribable.
	You bribe them into liking you or respecting you.
	Is that right? Well, clearly with business that worked.
	Well, by that, I mean, you're being sarcastic, right?
	Because it didn't work, right? No, well, my mother, she does respect me in business.
	My dad still doesn't, really.
	Well, I thought you had this whole thing that your dad tells you what to do when you've had seven years of experience and he's new to the field.
	Correct, correct. I mean, haven't you just done the whole speech about how your father doesn't respect you even though you make them rich?
	That's correct. That's correct.
	Okay, so that doesn't work, right?
	I worked on my mother, but my father hasn't changed.
	My mom does. No, no.
	Stop separating your parents.
	This is good cop, bad cop stuff.
	Nice parent, not so nice parent.
	Your mother is happy to remain married to and support and claim to love a guy who humiliates her adult child.
	Now, she may say, well, you've got to apologize or whatever, but nothing fundamental is changing, right?
	No, not at all. So, there's no good guy in there.
	Yeah. And I remember, like, even after I thought I got through to at least my father about the whole circumcision question and showing him your video and all of that, and he was like, oh, God, this is awful.
	And explaining that they sell it to cosmetics companies and it's extremely painful for the child, all this stuff.
	But he would at least say, yeah, that was a mistake.
	And then I asked him, I said, if he had another child, the other son, would you circumcise him?
	Oh, of course I would. Yeah.
	No hesitation. Okay.
	So he's being very clear that it doesn't matter how much information gets passed.
	It doesn't matter what emotional connection he has.
	He's never going to change.
	Right. Is it good for your children, is it good for your sons for you to be humiliated by your father?
	No. Is it good for your wife to watch you get humiliated by your father?
	No. Is it good for you to be humiliated by your father?
	No. So what are you doing?
	Yes, you do. What are you doing?
	What am I doing? I'm trying to get their love or respect that I never got.
	Well, I mean, you're a smart guy, obviously a very competent, very able businessman, a dedicated parent, a good husband.
	You seem like a great guy to me.
	So you're not stupid, right?
	So what are you doing?
	Because the idea that after 28 years, you're going to try and get the love of people who never admit fault, who hold you in contempt, who regularly humiliate you, who beat you 2,500 times as a child, and you'll be like, they're turning the corner any moment now.
	Yeah, you know, what are you doing?
	Uh.
	What comes to mind is I don't outside of work.
	I really don't have any people that I consider friends.
	and other things.
	And you know why that is?
	Because no one respects me?
	Because you're being crushed and humiliated by your father, and you will be going into your fourth decade!
	Yeah. Does your father bully anyone in power?
	Does he bully cops if he gets pulled over?
	Does he bully waiters?
	Is he a general bully?
	Oh yeah. My mother will say that my father brings out the worst in people.
	He is so horrible.
	It's their fault. I don't know what she means by that.
	She does blame him.
	I don't know why she phrases it that way.
	He will get people screaming upset Or just be so awful to people in just random situations like cashiers or waitresses or waiters.
	One quick example, I have a CPA that I use and he's very specific to this industry.
	I recommended my parents to them, but before I did so, I called the guy and I said, listen, if you have any bad experiences with My parents, please don't hold it against me, because I know how my dad can be.
	And of course, I mean, literally the last interaction I had with my father, he was like, you know, I tried to get this financial document from him, and he wasn't getting back to me promptly, so I left him a very scathing voicemail, and then he got it to me after that.
	Wait, sorry, you recommended that somebody work with your father?
	Is this an enemy of yours?
	Sorry, I'm trying to follow this part of the story.
	No, it's not.
	Is he a friend? He's a guy that I like and that does good work, and so that was a mistake.
	Good Lord, man, what are you doing?
	Why would you want to sick your child abuser on an accountant?
	Oh That's not funny, but the way you phrase that maybe laughs
	Um Oh, Lord. That was a big mistake.
	Okay, so why did you do that, right?
	We can say a mistake, but that doesn't keep us a mistake, right?
	Trying to help my parents.
	And I'm not even opposed to, like, cutting people out of my life that are family.
	I have, within the last year, done that to one of my sisters.
	And also convinced my parents to do the same with her.
	And so I'm not even...
	Why did you do that? Among other things, the last straw was she tried to get my brother, other brother, killed.
	And I'm not exaggerating.
	She called the police...
	I'm still trying to figure out this good childhood we started with, but okay, I'll go with you down this road.
	What happened? Maybe not so good.
	You know, I guess it always seems nicer.
	I don't know. But so...
	My sister is a chronic...
	She's an alcoholic, drug user, just a very unstable person.
	And... She called the police in the middle of the night.
	She was mad at my other brother over...
	I don't even really know what.
	And my other brother, he has issues as well.
	But she called the police on him in the middle of the night, told the police that he had kidnapped...
	Women and was holding them captive that he was selling cocaine and that he had a gun.
	So she swatted your brother and tried to get him killed.
	Yes. Yes. And they came literally guns drawn to his apartment.
	And she said he kidnapped women and kept them in an apartment?
	Not even a basement like in the middle of nowhere?
	No, no. In his apartment.
	Yeah. All right. This is what she told the police.
	And, hey, believe all women. And then, you know, multiple cop cars come to my brother's apartment.
	Well, no, the cops have to go. It's not believe all women, right?
	That's why it works, right?
	For sure. For sure. I mean, it just sounds so ridiculous.
	But yes, yes, correct.
	And so, and then she did something similar to my parents and also attempted to do that to me.
	And, you know, again, all this stuff is starting to come back to my mind as we're having this conversation.
	So as a result of that, I completely cut her out of my life.
	I refuse to ever have anything to do with her ever again.
	Sorry, are you holding your sister infinitely more responsible than your parents who raised her?
	Yes, clearly yes.
	I shouldn't be, but yes, that is correct.
	Can you help me understand the logic of this?
	I mean, you cut your sister out, who of course did a terrible thing,
	or I'm sure many, many terrible things, but you're making your parents who raised
	her and I assume abused her as well, you're making them rich.
	Bro, what are you doing?
	I feel like I'm in a laundromat here, just round and round and up and down, and like, oh my god, what's happening?
	Yeah. Uh...
	I see the disconnect and the logical disconnect and I don't have a good answer for that.
	Okay, give me a bad answer.
	Give me any answer. I'm fine with that, too.
	I don't have many quote-unquote close relationships, and the idea of never talking to my parents again is upsetting.
	Bye.
	Outside of many things, if we're talking about, I don't know.
	My dad likes karaoke.
	I kind of like karaoke.
	It's fun sometimes. We'll talk about that or something, and that's enjoyable.
	Or my mother, again, she really enjoys the work, and I love what I do as well.
	So we'll talk about that, and that's fun, I guess.
	So, and I guess the sentimentality of, oh, your parents.
	I had no problem at all cutting out my sister, and I tried, like, oh gosh, over a decade ago to get them to do this because she had a child when she was, she got pregnant when she was 16, and my parents ended up having to adopt him because she got, she got married, divorced, married again, the second guy was abusing the child extremely, like, very intensely.
	And they had to fight, they got custody.
	And I was so happy.
	And then they were bringing her around like not even six months after that, after that whole ordeal, like legal battle.
	But what happened to your sister as a child?
	I don't know anything other than then we were raised in the same house.
	We were all homeschooled. And all I can the only thing that was.
	I was the youngest of five.
	The two oldest are 16 years older than me.
	My other sister is 12 years older than me.
	I'm two years apart from my other two siblings.
	I was closer with them. They met other teenagers when they were 13 or 14 from this homeschool co-op we would go to once a month.
	I hung out with them more.
	They started smoking weed.
	When I was 9 or 10, I smoked weed with them for about a year.
	And they both got caught doing it, and I saw my parents' disappointment.
	Caught by my parents doing it.
	And I saw how much it disappointed them, so I admitted it to my dad and told him I would never do it again.
	And I never did it again.
	At least up until about a couple years ago.
	I did it. Or about four years ago.
	But what I'm getting at is the only thing I can think of that was significantly different was they were around not good friend influences and my parents were oblivious or just didn't care.
	Yeah, that's not enough.
	So I don't know.
	I really don't know. Yeah, that's not enough.
	You mean for them to be that different, my sister?
	Yeah, that's not enough. Well, what do you...
	I'm really trying to think.
	No, look, everyone gets exposed to bad friends.
	I did, you did.
	Everyone gets exposed to bad friends.
	I mean, could it just be a genetic screw-up?
	That's what I always thought. Because my oldest brother, we're very similar.
	We're both You know, very similar interests, similar work ethic, similar business, really.
	And then my other, the two siblings closest to me, they're really different.
	And then my oldest sister just says never really done anything, but she's just nice and that's the extent of it
	So are you saying that some people are just genetically susceptible to teen pregnancies and drug addiction
	Well, they absolutely are.
	I'm sorry, is that, I mean, maybe that's been studied and I'm not aware that addiction genes
	have been discovered and...
	Yeah, there's alcoholism, you're predisposed to different things.
	And obviously, among races, you know, different races have different levels of teen pregnancy.
	Drug use and criminality and everything else.
	And so that's definitely a genetic thing.
	And so within races, it would...
	No, but the different races differ in IQs as well.
	So I mean, right, so I don't know, has there, I mean, maybe there has been, I know that people say that there's a, you know, genetic susceptibility to alcoholism, and that may be the case with natives or the indigenous population of North America, but a gene for addiction that strips free will, is that right? No, definitely not.
	Just more impulsiveness or shorter time horizon.
	Okay. Do you have any other addicts in the family?
	My grandfather, whom I never met, I talked to him once on the phone, but he was a big alcoholic.
	The cycle of abuse continues on.
	He severely would beat my dad, according to him.
	And it's funny how I think about that.
	He would tell me how awful this was, but then he would do the same thing to me.
	But yeah, he would say that he was just awful.
	He'd get drunk and just beat them for no reason.
	And my grandmother, who again, she was also terrible, honestly.
	Again, I'm never going to exclude women because they're usually equal to blame, if not more.
	But she eventually left him and then got with a bunch of other men who also beat them and everything else.
	So... So, yeah, he was an alcoholic.
	My brother, the one that she tried to get killed, he's been on different drugs throughout his life.
	Sorry, been on, do you mean like prescribed?
	No, I don't even quite know.
	I know cocaine is one of them.
	Weed, which... Okay, so he takes drugs.
	I just wanted to know if it was like painkillers for whatever.
	Well, that too at one point.
	I think that may be the main one even.
	I don't know. I really don't know.
	That's upsetting too because my brother and I have had a mostly good relationship.
	This one, the one that's closest in age to me.
	Is this the one who laughs at circumcision effects?
	No, different one. Okay, got it.
	Yeah, yeah. He's totally on board with that.
	He at first was resistant like most men that have been circumcised.
	Oh no, it's cleaner. Women prefer it.
	And then when I showed him the stuff, he was totally on board.
	He was like, this is so awful.
	I can't believe that our dad did this to us.
	My parents will always blame each other and then neither one takes accountability.
	Well, your mother wanted it.
	Okay, let's go. Sorry. I mean, I can't stomach more negative talk about your parents because I've got the complete picture.
	Okay, so with your sister, obviously, I don't know.
	My first guess would be based upon, you know, I've talked to a lot of addiction experts and done shows and all of this kind of stuff.
	Bomb of the brain. Yeah, so my guess would be something like this.
	So everybody handles pain in a different way.
	Some people become workaholics, some people drink, some people do drugs, some people get addicted to video games to numb themselves, some people become sex addicts, and some people go for high status, even going into debt to get it.
	Some people gamble to feel better about themselves and give them something else to worry about.
	There's lots of different ways that people deal with pain, right?
	Now, maybe there is a genetic susceptibility to dealing with pain one way or another.
	So maybe, I mean, I don't know, but my guess would be maybe that your sister had a susceptibility to dealing with pain by taking drugs.
	I mean, I've tried alcohol, of course, like most people have, and I don't really...
	Certainly getting drunk is no fun, I mean, for me.
	Obviously some people like it, but I don't, right?
	So I don't have... But the question is not, is there a gene for drug addiction?
	The question is, is there a gene...
	That makes people more likely to use drugs to deal with personal agony.
	My question is, where the fuck is the personal agony coming from?
	Like, why does she need to self-medicate to that degree?
	Now, again, everybody's self-medication might be different, right?
	Sure. Well, so, she was already doing these sorts of things and certainly smoking weed and I don't really know all what else and having sex and She claimed that she told me that she was raped by a guy that was a friend of my brother's when she was like 15.
	Okay, so why you give them all this genetic stuff?
	Well, that just came to mind.
	And part of the reason why I didn't think of that at first is she has falsely accused a lot of other guys of rape.
	Including my father as an adult.
	And this was in a situation where I was in the room with both of them.
	So I know she just makes stuff up.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.
	She accused your father of sexually abusing her?
	Appropriately touching her or like grabbing her or assaulting her.
	And then calling the police.
	This is when she lived with my parents, when I'm still living at home, when we were teenagers.
	And the police would come out and talk to all of us, and then they'd just leave because it's all nonsense.
	She was just angry at my dad for maybe legitimate reasons, but that was her response.
	So you think that her claims of having been raped when she was 15 are false?
	I always believed her up until...
	She started making false accusations of that nature and then other false accusations against me as well and against other people in my family and against other people we know.
	And it was like drug...
	Again, I'm not making excuses at all, but it would almost be like she'd get high and then just start making these false police reports.
	Which, again, you have to be... I mean, it's very detailed, so I don't even...
	Oh, no, listen. I mean, that's obviously terrible behavior, and to be false accusations, you should get the same jail time as...
	I get all of that.
	But at the beginning. Yeah.
	Right? It's certainly, I mean, it's possible, I suppose, that she was raped.
	And then the drug addiction, the false act, like it all kind of snowballed out of that.
	She was already smoking weed.
	I think she was already having sex prior to that.
	And I think at the time they were both drinking.
	And so then later on...
	Sorry, who's they? This guy that...
	She says rape her and then her.
	She told me they were drinking.
	Okay, so sorry. Are you saying that your sister was having sex and smoking drugs when she was 14?
	Yes. Now, didn't you all live in the country?
	Yes. So how is it?
	And you're homeschooled? Yes.
	You know what my next question is, right?
	Why would my parents allow this?
	Or how did it happen? Well, they had to know.
	They, we, my parent, my dad had an office in town.
	So your dad had what?
	Oh, an office in town.
	Sorry. An office in town.
	And there was like a basement that we used to go and like play video games because we had high speed internet and stuff like that.
	And so frequently, at least my closest in my age group, brother and sister would go there and then these people would come over and they would do all this, these things.
	And, uh, Okay, so it's in the house.
	Well, this was in an office.
	Spend the night not at home.
	Okay, so hang on.
	Are you saying that your parents would allow a 14-year-old girl to be around all these skeevy guys unsupervised in an office far from home?
	Not overnight, though.
	She wouldn't stay overnight, would she?
	Overnight, yes. Oh, come on, man!
	No! No! So they're having co-ed sleepovers completely unsupervised.
	Yes. I mean, they're just feeding her to the lions.
	Yes. Am I wrong?
	No, you're exactly correct.
	Oh my god.
	I mean, I'm beyond shocked.
	Honestly, like, no, hang on, let's pause a second here, brother.
	Like, I'm beyond shocked.
	Like, man, I got a 15-year-old daughter, right?
	And be unshocked.
	What on earth was going on?
	I mean they ruined that girl.
	Oh.
	you In my opinion. I mean, if I'm wrong, tell me.
	I agree. And it's...
	Why I go back to genetics is...
	It's...
	Odd because my oldest two siblings, I'm sure they have trauma that they've just buried because we've never really talked about it, but they're normal.
	They're not alcoholics. They don't do drugs.
	They're married. They have kids.
	My parents were more supervised.
	They supervised the oldest two more according to them than they did the last three, including myself.
	So, I don't know. Hang on, dude.
	What are we talking about? Just lending me off this fucking family tree shit.
	Like, we're just talking about what happened with your sister.
	Yeah, I know. I'm just going back to, like, I don't know.
	No, no, no. I don't want you to go back and abstract you trying to minimize your feelings here.
	I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on in this family.
	Yeah. I mean, to try and put yourself in my shoes, if you were hearing this cavalcade of horrors for the first time, what would you think?
	If this was someone else's family and you were hearing these stories of alcoholism and beatings and child rape potentially and beating babies with belts and Humiliation and aggression and scorn and contempt and violence.
	I mean, what would you think if you were hearing these stories?
	It was horrendous and unacceptable.
	Well, I know. I don't know what you mean by unacceptable.
	It's all happened.
	I mean, if I shoot myself in the foot and then say it's unacceptable, what does that mean?
	Well, inexcusable is what I mean.
	But you do excuse it.
	Not only do you excuse it, you work very hard to reward it.
	Here's money, here's expertise, here's free business advice.
	You pay for it.
	Please spend more time with my children.
	What is going on?
	How do I?
	Take this information and Make
	No, no, no.
	I mean, everybody does this. Sorry, this is so predictable.
	It's that you get an insight, and how do you destroy the emotions associated with the insight?
	Do you know what you're doing right now? What do I do with this information?
	Right? Is that where we're going?
	Well, no. I want to...
	The correct decision would be probably to completely cut them out.
	No, I'm not asking...
	Look, I don't care. I mean, the decision I can't make for you, and I don't know what the correct decision is, right?
	Because we're just having a talk.
	But you're jumping straight from feeling to conclusion to action so you can avoid the
	feelings.
	I've never been to any type of therapy or really talked this out other than...
	No, no, no, no.
	Don't care. Don't care.
	No, because you already were emotional in this call, right?
	So you have the perfect capacity to access passionate emotions, right?
	Yeah, you're right. So you don't need a therapist to feel I think and I again I say this with deep sympathy right
	there in the trenches with you brother Bye.
	I think you're still terrified of your father.
	Any kind of boundaries, and it makes perfect sense.
	I mean, the guy beat you 2,000 times as a child.
	He still openly scorns, mocks, and humiliates.
	He's very aggressive, punchy, brings out the worst in people, as your mother says, right?
	Sounds almost demonic in a way, right?
	Yeah, really. But he's a scary guy, right?
	And a lot of socialists, like around other people, he's so good at hiding.
	He's so friendly and nice, and he just would never know it.
	Wait, I thought you said he bullied a bunch of people.
	Well, yeah. I mean, like, around people that he respects, I guess.
	Like, people from church or things like that.
	No, around people he wants something from.
	Around people that he needs to impress.
	Yeah, I mean, look, you can go and look up the corrupt personality style that is superficially charming.
	You can go look that up, and I'll let you draw your own conclusions out of that.
	But there is a personality style, or a personality characteristic, or a personality type.
	That is cold and manipulative and cruel, but incredibly charming to strangers.
	How do I feel my way through the emotions of this?
	Because it still invokes this reaction whenever I really think about it.
	Sorry, which reaction? The...
	What happened as a child and what I continue to let happen as an adult.
	Well, you are a husband and a father.
	Now, of course, that's a lot of responsibility, and yet it also takes a lot of responsibility off your plate.
	Because it's funny, you know, with parenting, everyone thinks that they all talk about all the responsibility that it puts on you.
	And yeah, but you know what it takes?
	It takes a huge amount of responsibility off you.
	How? Well, what you do in your life is no longer up to you!
	What do you live your life by?
	Hopefully, what's in the best interest of raising your children?
	Yeah, but what's good for your kids, right?
	So, it's out of your hands, right?
	You do what's best for your kids, and that means moral clarity.
	Right? That's a great way to look at it.
	I've never...
	No, it's not just a great way to look at it.
	It's what it is. Sure, sure.
	Right? I mean, let me ask you this.
	How many dating apps do you want?
	Zeroes. Right.
	How many times do you try and pick up girls when you're out?
	Zero. Right.
	So you got married...
	And you don't do that.
	It's not on the table. It's not what you do.
	So you don't have to worry. You never have to worry about picking up a girl, getting her number, going on a date, trying to, right?
	That's all done, right? Because, I mean, you made a vow, you're married, you love your wife.
	So that's not a thing, right?
	You just so, you say, oh, marriage is so restrictive.
	It's like, well, yeah, but it also liberates you to not have to do any of that other stuff, right?
	Sure. So, As far as your feelings and all of that, super important, very important to process these feelings and so on.
	But you want to know how to be a peaceful parent.
	Well, to be a peaceful parent is to be respected.
	I mean, you respect your wife, don't you?
	Yes. If your wife says that outfit is not appropriate, what do you do?
	You change your outfit! Of course you do!
	Right? If you say to your wife, I don't think we can afford this, she'll probably listen, right?
	Yes. Respect is a whole lot simpler in a relationship.
	Because respect means the division of labor, right?
	Yes. I do philosophy, my dentist does dentistry, and we trade, right?
	Yes. Through the media of money.
	But if I didn't respect my dentist, or my dentist didn't respect me, then we couldn't do business.
	So it's a Respect is the foundation of the division of labor and efficiency in a relationship.
	And where people have earned your respect, you should pay it, right?
	Because we want to be just and fair with these things.
	This makes sense, right?
	So to be a peaceful parent is to have your children respect you.
	Because when you respect someone, they don't need to be aggressive towards you.
	Does that make sense? Yes.
	My dentist doesn't need to yell at me.
	And say, you know, you've really got to floss the back a little better, right?
	Because, I mean, I'm one out of a thousand adults who still has his wisdom teeth, right?
	Yeah. So, they're watching back there and making sure that I got a little water pick or whatever it is that I use to clean back there and I go for my checkups every four months.
	I don't want to get my wisdom teeth out.
	Thank you very much. So, I'll just have to take care of them, right?
	So, because I respect my dentist and my dentist is great...
	me, doesn't need to bribe me. She just says, jump and I say, yeah, how high? Oh, this high?
	Okay, I'll do that. I don't need to fight with my wife when she says, maybe don't wear
	pajamas to a dance. You know, like, just okay, I'll check.
	It's just efficient, right? And we don't need to be aggressive with each other because we
	respect each other.
	Sure. I agree with all that.
	So you, if you have a respect relationship with your children, you don't need to be aggressive towards them.
	Because they'll want to listen to you, right?
	I mean, does your GPS ever yell at you?
	No, it does not.
	Unless the volume's way up. Recalculating, right?
	No, it just says, when possible, make a U-turn, right?
	I mean, so your GPS doesn't...
	Because you listen to your GPS, right?
	You assume that, I mean, with very rare exceptions, it's going to get you where you need to get to in reasonable time and efficiency, right?
	So you respect your GPS. You don't get into fights.
	I mean, I know it's a robot in a sense, but...
	Right? And...
	If I didn't respect it, I wouldn't rely on its navigation.
	Right. And so, the way to be a peaceful parent is to have your children respect you.
	Okay. And for your children to respect you, you have to respect yourself.
	And to respect yourself, you have to not permit people in your life who don't respect you or who hold you in contempt.
	Okay. If you say, I am worthy of respect...
	Then you have to earn it by being right and also being humble where you're wrong and taking correction and listening to other people who have better expertise, right?
	So in order to respect you, your children have to see you respect yourself and respect others.
	So if you have a big garden and someone comes over and says, oh, you hire a gardener, says, oh, you need to do this, this, and this with your garden, and you say, okay, and then you do it, your children see you respecting someone else, right?
	Sure. And also their mother and everything else.
	Yeah, and respect the mother and so on, right?
	And again, that doesn't mean never criticize or never give any feedback.
	I mean, we're old enough to understand this, right?
	So your children need to see you both give respect to those who've earned it And to be respected because you've earned it.
	Right now your children also need to see you deal with people who don't respect you
	I mean once I was in a restaurant with my daughter and
	somebody who had a problem with the show Came up and was kind of hostile and I'm like, hey sit down.
	Tell me you know, we'll talk about it it and I went through the arguments and all of that and
	actually ended up being quite a productive conversation.
	And if somebody is disrespectful, I'll call them out on it and if they continue to be
	– I mean, you've seen this in the live streams, occasionally I'll kick people out
	or whatever it is, right?
	Just because, you know, like I'm, I mean, I've earned respect.
	It doesn't mean I'm perfect, of course, right?
	But part of the way that I've earned respect is by admitting imperfections and changing when needed.
	So if your children genuinely respect you, You don't need to be aggressive with them.
	I mean, you said this with regards to the difference between your mother and your father, right?
	Your mother respects your business acumen, which is right, and you've earned it.
	You're very successful. You've been doing it for seven years.
	Ten years at this point, yeah.
	Yeah, honestly, it's amazing.
	It's amazing how good you are at this, and I'm, you know...
	At 28, I was a new entrepreneur and you've been doing it for donkey's years, right?
	So, massive props and respect.
	I'd listen to you too, right?
	So, your mother respects you, so you don't need to get aggressive.
	Your father drives everyone crazy because he's arrogant, intrusive, condescending, and wrong.
	And your son's We'll gravitate to the highest status person in the environment, and they will replicate that behavior.
	And they don't need to have a lot of exposure to it to internalize it.
	And right now, I think, I assume, they're being programmed to act like your father.
	Oh, Lord. Because you defer to him.
	So who's the ultimate authority in your family tree that they've seen?
	Him. Yeah.
	So your father is the ultimate authority, right?
	So they're like the space aliens.
	Do they want to deal with an underling?
	What does the space aliens always say?
	Take me to your leader, right?
	They don't want to deal with an underling.
	Do you ever, I mean, you're in business, right?
	Do you ever want to talk to someone in great detail about a problem if they have no authority?
	I don't know. Of course not. No, I mean, do you give great lectures to the waiter about the menu?
	No, no. No, he can't change the menu.
	No, no. So, you will only genuinely interact with people if you have an issue or need to, right?
	The people who have authority, right?
	People who can actually change things.
	And so, your kids are looking around, scanning around the whole family tree, the whole environment, and they're saying, okay, who's in charge?
	Oh, the granddad's in charge, right?
	And it was kind of chilling to me when you said, what did you say about your kids and their relationship with their grandfather?
	They want to be around him.
	They love him, right?
	Yeah. Holy shit, dude.
	Do you get what a five-alarm fire that is?
	Yes. So why do they love him?
	Because he's the ultimate authority figure.
	Yeah, because he's the one in charge, he's the most powerful, and he runs you like a vacuum cleaner.
	So your son looks at you and you say, don't go outside!
	And he's like if I didn't
	you I wasn't expecting all that.
	No, it's like somebody in a car just yelling at you that you're speeding, and you're like, eh, not really.
	I mean, I'm going a little over the speed limit, but who cares?
	You know, get lost, right?
	As opposed to a cop, whoop, whoop, you're speeding, right?
	Yes. Then you pull over, right?
	Because the cop's got authority. He's got power.
	It's not just a good idea.
	It's the law, right?
	You need to be the alpha in your environment I mean, you are at work, right? Yes, for sure.
	And honestly, I was going to ask you that.
	How do I respect myself more?
	Because I have maybe 14 or 15 people Either direct employees or people I work with all the time that defer directly to me.
	And I struggle, honestly, with having authority, like telling them, in a nice way, we have to do this here.
	Or if they make a mistake, I try to...
	I've read business books and things like that, but having authority, honestly, makes me uncomfortable.
	And there's nothing wrong with that.
	That's actually quite healthy. I mean, I used to...
	I mean, I was the boss of...
	Sorry, it sounds like I'm one-upping you.
	I'm not, right? I understand.
	No, no. I mean, it's like, oh yeah, 12?
	I was the boss of 30 people.
	So I don't mean that at all, right?
	Because that's ridiculous. I was older than you, blah, blah, blah.
	It doesn't matter, right? But when I needed to talk to someone one-on-one, the last thing I'd want to do is, like, I need to get in my office now, or I need to see you in my office right now, or, you know, because what would they do?
	They'd crap themselves, right?
	Yeah, yeah. So I went back and forth for a long time.
	What's the best way? And what I'd do is I'd say, hey, can I borrow you for a sec?
	Yeah. Because that's totally non-intrusive and non-threatening, right?
	Sure. Or, you know, quick question, or, you know, as opposed to, get in my office now.
	You know, like people that don't think they...
	And the other thing was, it was private, right?
	So it was not embarrassing in front of their colleagues.
	Right, right, right. But no, I mean, even if I did just have a question that had to be private, even if it wasn't any kind of correction or problem, I just needed to find a way to talk to them, yeah, without, ooh, you know, like the things that the teacher says, stay after class, and it was, ooh, right?
	So no, it's good to struggle with authority.
	And of course, you know, I mean, you hear me a million times on these call-in shows, like, I can't tell you what to do.
	I don't know what to do. This is my perspective.
	I could be wrong. It's my opinion.
	Is it correct what I'm saying?
	Like, I'm constantly deferring to people, of course, because I'm talking to you and trying to unravel the complex, multidimensional threads of your life in, like, two hours, right?
	Yeah. So, yeah, I'm going to get a bunch wrong, and I need to correct and all that, right?
	So, no, it's good. It's good to struggle with authority.
	Because, of course, the thing is, you get the most out of people when they're enthusiastic.
	And authoritarianism, one of the first things it kills is enthusiasm, right?
	Yes. Right.
	So, were your parents child abusers?
	Yes. Have your parents...
	Apologized, made restitution, and taken steps to ensure they'll never be bullying, critical, hypercritical, contemptuous, or negative in the future.
	Not at all. Right.
	What is best for your sons?
	Not being exposed to that.
	Well, what's best for your sons is to have respect for you, which means you can't be bullied.
	Now, you say, well, what if I'm over at my parents' place?
	Well, you come back with a different perspective.
	Your children will note how you are when you leave and they'll note how you are when you return.
	Or say, well, I'm upstairs on the phone having a fight with my dad.
	Well, they can hear the muffled tones and they also know how you appear when you come down the stairs.
	You can't hide anything from kids.
	This is one of the big revelations.
	Because you've got a whole life, business, friends, movies, events, hobbies, and they've got one thing and one thing only, which is figuring out their family, their parents, and their social environment.
	That's it. They're like lasers, right?
	So you can't be bullied.
	Now, if you can find a way to not be bullied by your father, okay.
	Guy, I mean, your business career is amazing in your 20s.
	It's like, great.
	Beyond great. It's hugely impressive in my view.
	Thank you. You're welcome.
	Now, I just say this because I might need a rental at some point.
	No, I'm kidding. I actually have some.
	I had some in Canada. I sold them because they passed rent control.
	Oh, yeah. That'll do it.
	That'll do it. Yeah.
	Yeah. So, if you can find a way to not be bullied by your father, fantastic.
	If you can't, you can't let your kids see you're getting bullied.
	Okay. Because that's just, what that does is it brings the bullying home.
	Sure. Because if your kids don't respect you, you have to escalate, right?
	Because when you said at the beginning, you said my, and this is why I said like, you said my three-year-old doesn't, he disobeyed me, right?
	Which is for you to say that your commandment should be enough.
	And for children, your commandment absolutely is enough, as long as you're the alpha.
	Interesting. Okay. It is.
	It's a magic spell. If your children respect you, and again, you can think of all the people in your life that you respect.
	And if they say, do something, you do it.
	Absolutely. So, that's because you respect them, so they don't need any aggression.
	That's sort of my point. So, peaceful parenting is simply self-respect, the respect of your children, and don't have people in your life.
	Now, you know, people then, I'm not saying this would be you, but people then go to the place where they say, oh, so you're saying don't have people in my life who disagree with me.
	It's like, well, no, that's not what I'm saying at all.
	You just don't have people in your life who hold you in contempt.
	How do you respect yourself more?
	Like, I'm Self-critical and even if I achieve something, I'm like, well, I need to do more.
	Sorry, how do you know that you're self-critical just because you say that shit in your head?
	And that's just your dad, isn't it? That's just like never good enough for your father and always got to do more.
	How do you know you're self-critical or it's just your internalized father that you had to protect yourself?
	How do you deal with that? How do you eliminate that?
	I'm sorry? How do you get rid of that?
	So, are you saying how do you stop disrespecting yourself?
	Yes. Well, I mean, I'm not sure about the final form, but the first form is stop having people in your life that you want to voluntarily have around you that you ask to come over and want to give your kids to who hold you in contempt.
	Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely.
	Absolutely. I mean, how do you get perfectly lean and healthy?
	I don't know, but maybe if you're eating a cheesecake a day, at least stop doing that.
	At least start with don't eat a cheesecake a day.
	That's definitely something you can start with, and that's going to take a while.
	So yeah, you don't have people in your life who hold you in contempt.
	I mean, why would you want that anyway?
	Yeah. Good point.
	I mean, that's why I literally wouldn't talk about it with business.
	The contempt stuff is horrible because even if you are deficient in some kind of way, contempt isn't going to fix it.
	Right? Right.
	Contempt doesn't make people better.
	No, no. Contempt is an emotion of get away.
	Like, I have no respect for you.
	You have nothing to do with you. You're nothing but negative.
	Get away. That's what contempt is.
	Contempt doesn't improve people.
	It only improves your life by getting crap heads away from you.
	You know, and then, you know, maybe you have a conversation with your wife.
	And you can ask her, because it's an interesting question, right?
	How do you feel when my father treats me?
	I mean when you and your father stormed over and was yelling at you in front of your friends in your household
	with your children there What did your wife say about that afterwards?
	She thought it was inappropriate that he was acting that way
	And it was disgusted. I mean, again, the same thing.
	They never even watched them.
	Why would he respond in that way?
	Okay. But he did.
	Yes. So what does she say?
	What does she say? Because she loves you, right?
	And she doesn't want to see you hurt and harmed, right?
	So, what did she say after you were hurt and harmed by your father?
	I don't remember, honestly.
	you What would have been the ideal thing to say?
	Yeah. The ideal thing would be, well, I'm sure she recognizes this is not healthy and I shouldn't put up with it.
	I love you so much, I can't ever see this happen to you again.
	Yes. Right?
	Yes. Now, I mean, that's a pretty tough thing for a woman to do.
	I mean, all sort of gender norms aside, it's a little tougher for women to say that, but it is important, right?
	Yes. You need people in your life who are going to say, I can't see this happen to you.
	I can't ever see this again.
	Like either this behavior needs to be fixed or you need to take a break.
	And we were leaning on moving to a different city about 40 minutes away, partially because there's more kid-centered stuff and more like homeschooling things.
	We went to homeschool as well. And also partially because I realized part of the reason why I was staying where I was at was because it was near my parents.
	I'm like, well, why the heck would I do that?
	Because they don't care about them.
	I'm trying to force something they don't even want, absent everything else.
	Well, this is the other thing, too, is that your children are not modeling reciprocity.
	And again, I know they're young and all of that, but your children want to spend time with their grandparents who don't want to spend time with your children.
	Yes. Which means that your children...
	Are begging for your parents' attention without getting much in return, just like you are.
	You see, you're modeling that behavior, too.
	Yes. That you beg for any positive treatment from cruel, high-status people.
	Yes. And, man, you don't want that, right?
	You don't want that in your family.
	Yeah. No. Well, this puts things into perspective.
	Well, that's the gruesome job of philosophy, man.
	That's how it rolls. Can I ask you one other...
	I didn't even anticipate getting on all my childhood, which, again, was necessary because that answers my original question, which I just didn't realize at the time.
	Okay, but keep it quick, though, because I've got something else this afternoon, but I'm certainly happy to answer another question.
	I respect your time. Thank you very much.
	Is spending time with my kids and it being engaging...
	Because I almost feel guilty because it's...
	Like, after, you know, the 10th kid's book, it's kind of boring for me.
	So I'll try to take them to, like, again, trampoline parks or playgrounds and stuff.
	And that's pretty entertaining as well.
	And my wife doesn't seem to mind very much.
	But, like, for me to...
	I know you were a stay-at-home dad, so that's even more impressive.
	For me to be with them all day is...
	And I love...
	Yeah, I love spending time with them.
	But it's just doing kiddie stuff gets boring after, you know, a couple hours.
	So, like, do you have any advice on how to make it less boring or anything?
	You know, you've done it longer than I have.
	Okay, listen, you've asked the question.
	I got it. Yeah, I mean, there's a very simple way to do it, which is stop consuming everybody else's entertainment.
	Instead of reading stories, make up stories.
	Have them participate. Make it some adventure.
	You know, turn a box into a spaceship.
	Like, let your creativity run wild.
	Of course, yeah, reading.
	You're basically like an AI reader of somebody else's book.
	Of course, it's going to get mindlessly boring.
	just really up the creativity and then you can't get bored because you're creating stories on the
	fly and doing really cool and neat things that way. So yeah, I mean just, you know, it's like
	if you're just watching, I'm not saying you do, right, but if you were just watching, I don't
	know, what was it, Paw Patrol or something like that over and over again, that would be pretty,
	pretty boring, right? But if you're instead saying let's create our own adventures, let's,
	all that kind of stuff, that is, that will keep you engaged and interesting, interested, sorry.
	To me, that sounds also boring.
	I'll make up stories and tell them, and I don't particularly like doing that either.
	Oh, you don't? And do the kids enjoy, like, new stories or creative stories or anything like that?
	Oh, yeah. They love it. They love it.
	And I'll try to think of stuff from, you know, positive stuff from my childhood about animals or things that, you know, going swimming or playing with, again, my dog or something, and they love that.
	And I can't, like, I struggle with creativity, I guess, and it's just not fun to me to try to imagine up the dragon and then this and that, you know.
	It's, sorry, it's not fun for you.
	What do you mean? That you knew about it or something?
	I think I'm bad at it.
	Of course, for a three-year-old, everything is great, but I think I'm bad at it, and I don't enjoy making up stories.
	And what do you mean you're bad at it?
	I mean, you're not trying to create an Oscar-winning movie script.
	Sure. I guess, good point.
	I don't enjoy it.
	I guess it would be better. I mean, I'm sure I'm bad, objectively, but for a three-year-old, it doesn't matter.
	I just don't enjoy that either. Okay.
	So, what is it that you do most enjoy doing with your kids?
	Physical stuff. Like, again, trampoline park, or playing with them in the playground, or wrestling, and things like that.
	Okay, so, and obviously there's nothing wrong with doing that stuff in the majority of time.
	Sure. Okay.
	Yes. Which is what I've been doing.
	I just didn't know if I was defective because I hate reading for long periods of time.
	And, I mean, but your wife enjoys that.
	I do enjoy reading, just not kids' books. What?
	So, your wife enjoys that, right?
	The reading? Yeah. Oh, she loves, yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, I think it does wear on her after a while, especially if she's just home alone with, and we don't, We have, like, an acre, but it's near a road, so I don't know.
	She's inside with them a lot, and so it gets boring for her, but she does enjoy it mostly from my conversation.
	Do your kids get into the stories?
	I mean, do you ask them questions and stories?
	Oh, yeah. Okay, so, like, when you're reading Three Little Pigs, right, you say, okay, how many bricks were there in the house?
	Where did they get the straw?
	You know, like, so just ask a bunch of questions, so you get into the world and use it as a sort of multidimensional teaching tool rather than just reading, like, a robot?
	Right. Okay, well, look, I mean, if your wife enjoys more of the verbal stuff and you enjoy more of the physical stuff, again, that's not atypical when it comes.
	But if you're bored, yeah, mix it up.
	You have to really fiercely protect your enjoyment of your time with your kids.
	Right, so if you just do stuff, everything for them, and you don't have to enjoy it at all, that's not good because...
	Then you won't look forward to spending time with them as much, right?
	Exactly correct. Exactly.
	Yeah, be absolutely fierce.
	If you're not enjoying something, you say, okay, daddy's bored and let's go do something else and all of that kind of stuff.
	And that's totally fine.
	Yeah, you can't just live for your kids because that's not teaching them about reciprocity and other people's needs.
	Okay. Well, great. That's perfect.
	This is boring. Let's do something else.
	Daddy's bored. Well, not this is boring.
	Yeah, daddy's bored. Well, whether you say bored might be a bit of an insult.
	Yeah, yeah. You know, if you're really passionate about something and someone else says it's boring...
	You're correct. Let's take a break from this.
	Or, you know, hey, I would love to do something else.
	I would love to try doing this, that, and the other without insulting what they're into in the moment, right?
	I mean, you always have this in particular.
	Even in the course of this conversation, I've said, I don't want to hear more about this.
	Let's talk about that. And you've wanted to talk more about stuff.
	So we've negotiated back and forth, but I'm not a slave to you.
	You're not a slave to me. So, yeah, if you're getting restless and you want to do something else, then you say, let's go do X, Y, and Z. And, you know, again, as boys, I'm sure the park stuff is great for them and they love that.
	So, yeah, that would be, yeah, you don't have to do everything for them.
	That's not a great thing.
	Okay. Well, fantastic.
	That makes me feel a lot better.
	Sounds like it was a fairly useful conversation.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Absolutely. I'm sorry?
	Absolutely, yes. All right.
	Thanks for the great chat and great questions, great work on your part, and go have fun with your family.
	All right, I will. Thank you so much.

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