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Jan. 10, 2020 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:42:02

I AM NOT A LIBERTARIAN!?! Freedomain Call In Show

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	Hey, my friends!
	How are you doing tonight?
	Yes, we're gonna do.
	Live! Baby, live!
	Just like the late Michael Hutchins at Wembley.
	We are going to have a call-in show.
	The goal, the idea, the plan behind all of this.
	Hey, my friends!
	How are you doing tonight?
	Yes, we're going to do.
	We are aiming to do a call-in show, and rumblings have occurred.
	That some libertarians, perhaps the left libertarians, who I believe may have left libertarianism itself, think that I am not A real libertarian, not authentic.
	You cut me open and you find that my blood does not run free market but some flavor of, I don't know, something else.
	So let's give it a shot and see who's on the line to talk about this and or whatever else is on your mind.
	So, let's see if we can talk to Tommy, and those of you out there on YouTube land, please let me know how that comes in.
	Tommy, are you with me? Yes, Stefan, how you doing?
	I'm well, brother, how you doing? Can you hear me?
	Yes. Good, good.
	Great to get on with you.
	I just wanted to talk about the nuances between, like, Ron Paul libertarianism and the Trump movement.
	Because there seems to be a lot of crossover, but I think that's where maybe the interesting political debate lies and I don't feel like you ever hear much of it.
	Well, what would you say would be the major differences between those?
	Taking like a step back, I feel that the Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams and such have been a little too critical of Trump and his policies and Pretty much my thoughts are like, with the encroaching Communist Democrats and their agenda, there's not going to be a seat at the table in the near future for them to get their ideas across.
	At least you can support Trump in certain ways, because at least you know Trump's going to give you a seat at the table.
	Wait, what do you mean by a seat at the table is one of these abstract political terms that I'm not sure I fully understand what it means.
	What does that mean? Well, I mean like censorship of free speech.
	You know, if the Democrats got in, you know, we're not going to have a discussion in this country about non-interventionism versus interventionism or, you know, free speech, big tech censorship.
	Well, really, with the wrong poll crowd, I guess it's the foreign policy debate.
	And, you know, especially with the way the Democrats have...
	I felt Obama was very arrogant.
	And probably if he knew Trump was coming, the whole lot of them would have done a lot more.
	But they knew that they were arrogant and thinking they'd keep on to the power.
	My point is, if they got back in power...
	I think we're going to see a side of the establishment we haven't seen before in the sense that they're going to drop the fist harder than ever when they get back in the presidency.
	Yeah, no, I think that's important.
	So for me, the principles, the non-aggression principle, a stateless society, anti-spanking, anti-circumcision, all of that remains absolutely completely and totally the same.
	My argument about not voting, I've got an old video, which was one of my earliest sort of breakthrough hits called The Truth About Voting, wherein I basically say voting is begging and all of that, and That was when I guess I was young enough, naive enough, or didn't have the information enough to know just how challenging the demographics were going to be.
	So I have always said from the beginning of this show back in 2005 that we have a multi-generational change ahead of us.
	It's not going to be achieved in my generation.
	I'm not sure how old you are.
	And it's not going to be in your generation, not going to be in my daughter's generation.
	So the sort of slow march of reason is really, really difficult.
	So those of us who respond to rationality, like, oh, man, you know, when I first read the arguments for the free market, I was a socialist and so on, it's like being run over.
	You know, like you can't really ignore it.
	Lots of people, they can just ignore the reason and evidence that comes their way.
	And I always find that to be quite...
	Wild. That people can just ignore this stuff completely.
	And for me, I can't.
	Like, I get an argument, and it just kind of sits in my brain.
	It bounces around my brain, and I can't sort of...
	Like, I was always dissatisfied with the objectivist argument for ethics.
	I remember scouring through even Nathaniel Brandon's writing about free will and, you know, not being quite satisfied, but, you know, it's good enough for now kind of thing.
	And then, of course, I was all distracted by business stuff.
	But for me, once I got the arguments about UPB, about the non-aggression principle, once you got the stateless society thing and all of that, then you say, okay, it's a multi-generation process because if you're an empiricist, you have to accept the empirical evidence and the rational evidence that very few people accept empirical and rational evidence.
	It's just the way it is.
	So then you say, okay, well, so then I've got this whole plan, which is about...
	Peaceful parenting and raising children non-aggressively and so that they don't feel the need for a state and they're not criminals and they're not addicts and they don't have these disorganized, crazy lives.
	And then that's going to lower the requirements for the state, right?
	And the problem is, of course, now you can do that within a population that was already in there in America, but if you keep bringing in people from child brutal cultures, Cultures which specifically focus upon anti-rationality, hostility to evidence, and trauma for the children.
	If you keep replacing the population, or at least adding to the population, a lot of cultures that come in, and most of the cultures outside the West, I mean the West is somewhat child-friendly, not super child-friendly, but somewhat child-friendly, most of the cultures outside the West are brutal on children.
	And so you can say, well, you know, look at this whole peaceful parenting program, and let's say that I can convert, I don't know, 1% or 5% or 10% of the population to peaceful parenting over the course of my career.
	But if you bring in another 25% of the population that is even worse with regards to peaceful parenting than the population you started with, then you're still going ahead.
	Well, you're still falling backwards.
	No matter how fast you run, the treadmill going backwards is faster, and you're still heading backwards.
	Back. And that's just a basic reality.
	Sorry, go ahead. No, no, I was just going to say, on the topic of parenting, I have to say, having three kids myself, all young, it is pretty wild out there.
	The amount of broken families, like, you know, the public schools in New York are horrendous, so, you know, cough up the money for the private Catholic school and Even there, a lot of families, there's so much broken families and it's almost hard.
	It's nice to hear you talk about parenting techniques because I feel like it's hardly ever I can find peers to talk to about parenting because either people my age don't have families or the parents I deal with in the schools, they're all broken and they're on cloud nine on All types of medications, it's like talking to...
	I mean, obviously there's some nice people out there, but Parenting is a funny thing.
	There's not many people you can talk to about it.
	No, well, you can see, you can find...
	Hang on, sorry. So you can find people to roll your eyes and kids are so tough.
	Like, there was this woman, Meredith something or other, who I just did a video response to called Shut Up Men!
	Probably won't be able to find it on YouTube anyway, but I guess you can follow me on Twitter and see it there.
	But... She writes about her children and, you know, she compares them to the bubonic plague.
	She compares them to hemorrhoids.
	She says spending time with them is kind of like being in maximum security lockup.
	So you can get that kind of...
	Sorry, go ahead. No, no, sorry to interrupt.
	Go ahead. Well, so you can get, you can have that kind of conversation, right?
	You can have that kind of conversation and people, you can roll their eyes and, well, there's a reason why we're so tired and all I ever do is laundry and my kids are a mess and they never flush the toilet and they fight all the time and, you know, this woe is me, the minister of doom and gloom from the kingdom of woe is me.
	You can have those kinds of conversations, but actual conversations about loving being a parent and enjoying, like, you know, this morning I woke up, did a little bit of work, and I took my daughter to brunch, and we spent, like, I don't know, an hour and a half or two hours sitting and chatting and role-playing, because we do this kind of Dungeons& Dragons stuff.
	Man, alive. It was so much fun.
	Like, why would you not want that?
	How could you complain about being able to spend so much wonderful time with a wonderful person?
	Sorry, go ahead. The best time I've had in the past 10 years has been that father-daughter dance at the school.
	And man, it was just like being in another universe.
	My daughter, she's five years old, no, four years old.
	And, um, you know, it's just the dads and the daughters and it was, um, that was a special moment, you know, this party and all what everyone that they think is what they sell you as fun, the Jersey store.
	I mean, you know, even when my teenage years, I could say it was almost like the best time.
	And it's a shame that, um, that is kind of being, uh, people are being essentially propagandized into not starting families.
	It's, uh, It's a real shame.
	And even my own brother and sister, it's like, you know, they could kind of see firsthand that, you know, the special bond.
	And I mean, they're both pretty far removed from the idea of starting a family.
	I think the programming is really intense.
	Parenting has been made so difficult and unpleasant by so many different factors.
	You've got neighborhoods that have kind of crumbled and are divided by a lot of ethnic differences, religious differences.
	Multiculturalism and so on.
	And I remember Dr.
	Thomas Sowell was talking about how when he grew up in Harlem, you could play everywhere, the families knew each other, it was safe, it was secure.
	And when he was at a school talking about this with kids some years back, not too many years back.
	And they were all just like, what, you went out alone?
	You went out at night? He's like, yeah, we went out and played all night.
	And you don't see that anymore.
	And so because kids are home all the time, they do get kind of on foot and parents do find it tough to do other things.
	And parents are doing a lot of driving around.
	You can't just let your kids play in the neighborhood.
	You've got to drive them off to go to play soccer and then you've got to hang around and then you've got to drive some other kid to go to school.
	Gymnastics or dance or whatever it is that they're doing or even over to a friend's place, just hang around.
	And it's like really, really time consuming.
	And it's become very tough to have a fun and enjoyable time with your kids.
	And so, you know, I do work at home.
	And so I do have the option.
	My daughter is 11 now, so she's a bit more self-sufficient.
	But you've really got to put the time in and then it really, really pays off.
	All right. Well, listen, thanks very much for the call.
	I appreciate that. Sorry, go ahead.
	One last quick comment. I saw your Frozen video with her.
	That was very sweet, your little review.
	Yes. And I urge anyone listening to watch that because that was pretty cool.
	Yeah, that's the review I did on Frozen 2 with my daughter.
	Thanks very much. I appreciate that.
	Yeah, that was cool. Thanks, man.
	I appreciate that. All right.
	Thank you very much. Now, we do have somebody who wants to talk about a strange sexual fetish.
	I don't know how related that is to libertarianism unless you have a blow-up doll of Murray Rothbard.
	In which case, I can see that.
	I can see that. I mean, he was kind of hot.
	All right. So let's try Alex.
	Let's drop in here.
	He said, you're watching the Stuff livestream.
	You've got some comments about the coming crisis.
	Is that right, Alex? Are you with me?
	I'm here. I'm a female.
	My apologies, sir. It is a bit of a transcription thing, so I'm sorry.
	I thought you had a cold. What would you like to talk about?
	No problem. So I discovered you via Curtis Stone.
	I'm a Canadian living in the United States since 1992.
	What I would say is there's a fundamental difference living here as a Canadian watching how families raise their kids here versus what I experienced in Canada night and day.
	If you ask me to quantify what I see, I just see families there on autopilot.
	They're so busy chasing consumerism.
	You know, everybody's, you know, what do you call it?
	Paycheck to paycheck. And what you end up having is these people that, you know, they park their kids in front of devices.
	They put them in eight different activities.
	And like someone else said, they're always driving.
	There's just like no meaningful conversation.
	It's fast food through a drive-thru.
	Like, I'm amazed at what it means to raise kids today in the way that a lot of people are doing it versus how you and I were raised because I'm 54.
	It just jumps out at me as a parent.
	I'm just like, wow. And then people wonder why, you know, their disconnect from their kids.
	The kids are running around behaving poorly at school.
	And they say, I'll throw more money at schooling.
	I'm like, you have to fix the family first before you can even look at the schools.
	Because what goes on in the home is the basis of everything else that children do.
	Well, and it's a thing, too, that now with the internet, with violence and pornography all over the HTTP splatterfest of youthful corruption, it's become more important for parents to spend more time with their children than ever before.
	And now that you're abandoning...
	There used to be like a computer in the living room with a modem, and you really couldn't get up to anything in terms of surfing illicit sites or whatever because everybody was around.
	And everybody knew if you were on the computer because you'd pick up the phone and be like, hey, I'm downloading something.
	So now with smartphones, with the tablets, with everyone having their own room and so on, it's become even more important for parents to sit down, to talk with kids, to review everything that's going on in the world, to help prepare them, to help them understand some of the really bad stuff that's out there.
	And yet at the same time, these devices, which...
	Educational value is somewhat questionable for kids.
	I mean, when I got a computer, it was so boring, you had to learn how to program because it had 2K of RAM and ASCII text display, and that's about it.
	And so now that culture is pretty heavily corrupted, there's a huge amount of propaganda in schools and kids have these portals to, you know, weird stuff, creepy stuff, nasty stuff, pornographic stuff, and, you know, unsupervised access to them, particularly after schools, isolated and so on.
	It is not a friendly at all environment for children these days, and I think a lot of parents don't really understand how much things have changed when they were young.
	I 100% agree.
	I mean, my degree is in abnormal psych and anthropology from the University of Toronto, so I'm interested in families, and I notice patterns in what's going on.
	I'm a realtor, and I sell houses, and the number one thing people want is, you know, what is it, 5G? And, like, everybody's on a tablet.
	You know, so you ever notice families where the kids don't come down the stairs and talk to the mother?
	They text, but they're in the house, and they're texting each other.
	And I'm just like, you know, holy crap, right?
	Like, have a conversation.
	Turn phones off at the dinner table.
	No phones. You know, and they make jokes about millennials and say millennials can't, you know, but they look like 30 times a minute at their phone.
	I'm like, really? Do you really need the dopamine hit every two seconds because somebody liked your photo on Facebook?
	Like, come on. Really?
	Like, get a grip. Right.
	And so, you know, you see all this, and then the thing that's amazing for me, right, like, when Trump was elected, okay, whether you like him or not, right, there's a tape.
	And he's saying, all you have to do is grab him by the you-know-what.
	And I'm like, okay, this dude is done.
	There's no way he's getting elected and he got elected.
	I'm just like, you can have, like he said, I could walk down the street and shoot someone and they'd still vote for me.
	And I'm like, yeah, Americans would vote for him.
	And so I sit there and I'm like, wow, this is how you choose your politician, regardless of how he's done, right?
	I'm just talking about character and ethics, right?
	And people are like, oh, it's locker room talk.
	And I'm like, the dude's 59?
	And he's talking about grabbing women against their will.
	I'm like, come on. And then people say, well, that doesn't transfer.
	You know, he's going to do this and that.
	I'm like, okay, but you're not endorsing decent values in the president?
	So values don't matter, right?
	So, like, I don't know who the right candidate is.
	I can't vote here.
	You know, my daughter always says Bernie Sanders.
	The problem with Sanders is everything he wants to give people for free, where's the money coming from, right?
	So Sanders isn't an option.
	I've got a millennial chairman chiming in here.
	I don't know who the right candidate is.
	And I have the opinion, whoever makes for the best soundbites and the best entertainment ends up being the president.
	Trump, oh my god, I don't even know that he's that bright.
	He won't release his transcripts and his SATs.
	So how smart is this guy?
	But he's a puppet, right?
	He probably did the math and thought, this is going to be way better than The Apprentice.
	This is going to be the greatest thing ever for the Trump brand.
	You know, don't even get me started on...
	No, no, no, come on. He's lost a huge amount of money since becoming president.
	I don't know that.
	I can't quantify that, right?
	Like, all I know is, again, I'm a Catholic and I'm a Canadian.
	So someone tell me why Jared Kushner has security clearance.
	Well, no, listen.
	Nepotism within the Trump brand is a big problem.
	I mean, it is a big problem, but it's driven in part by the fact that the deep state keeps leaving smoking craters where Trump's advisors used to be.
	I don't know if it's just...
	He's around a younger male like Billy Bush, right?
	So he's around a younger, relatively high-status male.
	He might just be talking tough and going along with it.
	You know, we all have these slip-ups where we just kind of roll into the conversational momentum, and of course he never thought that it was going to be recorded or released or he'd be running for president or anything like that, right?
	So that talk is...
	Not good, of course, right?
	But, you know, we've got to stack it up against other things, right?
	So we'll dip real briefly into the history, sexual history of, let's say, JFK, or let's say LBJ, right?
	I mean, these two guys were real hound dogs.
	You know, you got LBJ with his nude...
	Go ahead.
	I agree 100%, right?
	The alpha male is probably going to have a higher sex drive.
	There's a positive correlation.
	I read many books on it.
	It's just a tendency. It's what you're going to get with an alpha male CEO. I mean, the incidence of sexual misconduct in the workplace.
	It's all supported.
	I 100% agree.
	Well, and a lot of times these guys, I think of the Harvey Weinstein thing, not so much with JFK, but the Harvey Weinstein thing, these guys are hideous.
	And one of the reasons that they gain or thirst for this kind of power is because it gives them access to women that wouldn't give them the time of day if they didn't hold a movie role in their hand, right?
	So it's not just that they happen to have a higher sex drive.
	It's that their ambition is to a large degree focused on gaining that power.
	As Henry Kissinger said, it's an aphrodisiac, right?
	So they're focused on getting that power in order to manifest their sex drive in pursuit of women that wouldn't otherwise have anything to do with them because, you know, they look fairly hideous.
	I would agree with you.
	I think a lot of what we do, no matter how much we want to say it isn't based on genetics, I think we're in a paleolithic body.
	So, yes, I would agree with you.
	And, yes, there are Democrats that have behaved terribly badly.
	There are Republicans that have behaved terribly.
	The thing for me that, as a Canadian, that makes me nervous about the United States is it's a very fractured environment, right?
	Like, I'm a Caucasian, and my mother is Caucasian-Mexican, right?
	So the amount of vitriol that I hear about, oh, Mexicans on the border, and I'm like, okay, you understand.
	Not all Mexicans want to come here, right?
	So several of my relatives came here to get their MBA legally, and then they went back to Mexico.
	So it's a stratified society.
	But yeah, we have to do something about...
	Yeah, but that kind of sucks too, right?
	I mean, it kind of sucks that people bungee in to get education, thus displacing Americans, and then take that human capital out of the country.
	Well, my relatives applied, so they came in as foreign students and they paid.
	I'm not talking about that.
	I mean... The problem, when you talk to Hispanics, they're like, oh, on the border, we should be able to cross the border.
	And I'm like, look, you didn't graduate high school in Mexico, so you don't have a high school certificate in the language of your birth.
	And you're going to use social services, right?
	And who gets a free pass when Mexicans sneak across is definitely not the taxpayer, because the taxpayer gets stuck with the increased health care costs, because when the Mexican worker gets sick, he goes to the emergency room.
	The corporations love it, because You know, these guys all have fake social security cards.
	Again, I speak to them in Spanish and they show me their security card.
	I'm like, that's fake. Yeah, but the employer doesn't notice or care.
	The employer gets a great, great wage.
	They're getting the deal out of this.
	So I would like to see the employer, you know, let's set up a guest worker pass.
	Let them come in, but make the corporations pay for their health care while they're here.
	They're going to get hurt, right? They're picking fruit, they're doing dangerous jobs.
	But wait, why does anyone need to come in?
	Well, unless we fill the jobs, who's picking our fruit?
	Have you ever seen that documentary?
	No, no, but hang on, hang on.
	All you're doing, when you let people come in to pick fruit, all you're doing is you're slowing down or preventing the automation.
	You have amazing machines out there that can pick strawberries and grapes and raspberries without leaving a single bruise.
	You wouldn't have a combine harvester if it was still dirt cheap to pay people to cut down wheat by hand.
	There is no need.
	This idea that you absolutely have to have human beings picking fruit is false.
	And so you're just delaying the automation.
	So I have 50 citrus varieties on my property.
	It's a really small urban hobby of mine.
	But I read a lot of books about it.
	And what I know is that...
	Citrus is really difficult to pick other than by hand.
	You can't, like with an apple, you could pick it and it detaches from the stem.
	Citrus has to be cut, right?
	And so, what's the guy's name that had this series?
	Anyway, he went and Okay, okay, so sorry to interrupt you.
	I apologize for the interruption.
	But okay, so let's say that citrus trees have to be harvested by hand.
	I think I'd rather myself save $1,000 a month.
	In healthcare costs, in time on the road, in housing costs, in welfare costs, in tax costs, and then say, oh my gosh, but I have to pay double for my fruit.
	It's like, well, you're still up about $978 a month, and that's still a pretty good deal.
	If you can sell that to somebody, that's great.
	What I'm trained to tell people as a realtor is that the current population of the United States is 329 million.
	The projections, based on all the available data, is we're going to 434,000.
	So we have 180 It was a link that I got.
	105 million people between now and 2050.
	And the study said that will be from migration.
	They didn't say immigration.
	They didn't say birth. So that means illegal people coming across the border.
	105 million. The top 20 cities, as tracked by Case Shiller, median health price, the median family cannot afford them.
	Those are my stats.
	That's what I live and die by.
	Austin median health price is like $409,000.
	Meeting income here is $55,000.
	You do not qualify for a $409,000 house with 20% down, right?
	So we have an inaffordability problem.
	When people tell me we should let more people into the country permanently, I get into fights with my dad who's Canadian.
	I'm like, Dad, immigration is not the solution in the United States, right?
	Where are we going to put these people?
	And the first thing on the first day of real estate school they teach you is a third of the United States is locked up land.
	It's federal, it's state, it's forest.
	You can't, it's off limits.
	A third of it, we can't run utilities.
	That's water, that's power, sewage, everything else, infrastructure.
	You can't get approved or get it there.
	So think of most of Arizona, most of New Mexico desert, right?
	There are counties in Arizona that don't have any water, right?
	Cochise, I believe, is a county like that.
	So we can't even get infrastructure to build housing for those people.
	During the last recession, all the builders said, hell no to entry-level housing, right?
	There's no profit in it. We're not going to do it, right?
	A lot of them decided we're going to pile into luxury.
	So I have tons of luxury inventory.
	California is starting to slow down.
	There's no entry-level housing.
	So 105 million people coming into the United States who are going to need services, who are not skilled, is not the solution.
	The solution is to retool the people that are here.
	If you ask me, do we need...
	434 million people on this planet or in this country?
	I don't think so, right?
	Well, it's not going to... Hang on.
	Sorry. Sorry. I just have to remember it's my show as well, right?
	So it's not going to happen that way.
	It's not going to... Like, there's this argument that I think Rick Duchesne put forward on this show.
	That whites in Canada are going to go down to like 20% of the population, from like 97% of the population a couple of decades ago to 20% of the population by 2070 or 2080, I think.
	It's not going to happen. And there's no way that 100 million people are coming into America, because the system will absolutely...
	It's like saying, well, I can get 600 people on my trampoline.
	It's like, no, you can't, because the trampoline is going to break.
	Yeah, no, I get the projections.
	There's no way the tax base...
	No, hang on. Okay, there's no way that the tax base is going to be able to stand for that.
	It just won't support it. It just won't support it.
	It's all going to collapse, and then there'll be a self-deportation when people realize they come into America and they start hanging off the existing taxpayers.
	That's not just white people, of course.
	A lot of Jewish people, a lot of East Asians, some Hispanics, some blacks, a lot of the base of the taxes in America, they're going to come in and just...
	Fasten on it. You know, it's like those trains in India.
	They're trying to get someplace. They've got 600 people on each carriage and then, oh, there comes a tunnel and they just can't make it, right?
	So they're just going to collapse the entire system.
	And there's just no way that it is going to get that big or that long.
	There's just no way that the trampoline can take that many people.
	All right, but let's get back to the question of libertarianism.
	I'm hoping that people who disagree With me, regarding libertarianism, are going to call in.
	And it would be great if they did.
	And so we've got someone who wants to talk about Ron Paul and heterogeneous cultures.
	And I didn't get a name from that.
	Are you on, my friend? Hi, Stefan.
	How are you doing? I'm doing great.
	Yourself? Well, thank you.
	So, my question was, I apologize for the background noise, hanging out with my son.
	So, I have libertarian leanings where I think everyone should pretty much be left alone to pursue their own values.
	However, it seems to me that in a culture like America and the West today, where everyone's definition of virtue and value preferences are so misaligned, That the modern kind of call to libertarianism is really just a stand-down order for virtuous people to kind of let degeneracy run rampant.
	And I was, you know, it's kind of been a meme on some of the online forums about, you know, libertarian versus...
	Okay, so libertarianism is, of course, a small government.
	It goes all the way, I mean, I don't know if you would count anarcho-capitalists like me in the libertarian camp, which is a no-government position, but the libertarian objectivist position is as small a government as humanly possible.
	You know, courts, Police, maybe prisons, some defense, national defense, the military and so on.
	That's about it. That's about it.
	Now, the complexity of all of this...
	It's funny, you know, because people think that because libertarianism sounds like the word libertine, that it's about degeneracy and it's about have all the sex and drugs and rock and roll and all this.
	It's not. It's not about that at all.
	In fact, it's socialism, redistributionism that enables that kind of degeneracy.
	So... Degeneracy, let's just sort of track someone's life in a libertarian universe, right?
	So right now, in the socialist universe or the quasi-socialist universe, if somebody makes a whole series of mistakes, they get...
	Picked up all the time by the state, right?
	So, you know, some guy goes out and drinks, and he doesn't finish his school, and he's lazy at jobs, and then what does he get?
	Well, he gets welfare, he gets subsidized housing, he gets free health care, he gets subsidized education if he wants to go back on that kind of stuff.
	So all of his mistakes All of his mistakes, he dodges the bullet on all of his mistakes.
	And that lack of accountability, that lack of consequences for his bad decisions is what enables degeneracy and bad decisions.
	Everything you subsidize, you get more of.
	Everything you tax, you get less of.
	Somebody who's responsible gets taxed to subsidize people who are irresponsible.
	So you're subsidizing, irresponsibility.
	You're taxing, responsibility.
	So you're killing off responsibility, you're subsidizing irresponsibility, right?
	Lack of responsibility. Same thing with women, right?
	Some woman, she just tarts herself up, strolls around, has lots of sex, loses her capacity to pay a bond, destroys her sexual market value, and gets pregnant and has babies.
	And, well, you know, the welfare state rushes in with free health care, free education, free housing, and welfare, and you name it, right?
	As I've said a million times, right?
	It's $70,000 worth of value for a woman who's unmarried with two kids if she's on welfare and gets all of the other subsidies.
	That's $100,000!
	That's $100,000 of Canadian money, give or take, right?
	Just for heaven. So she can be degenerate in that sense.
	She can be wildly irresponsible.
	She doesn't have to choose good men.
	She can spread her legs like you and I buttering a piece of toast, right?
	And all of that vanishes in terms of consequences.
	Now, if you take these two people and you put them into a libertarian society, a free society, what happens?
	Well, look at the guy.
	He drinks.
	He doesn't show up for work.
	He gets fired. Well, what's he going to do?
	He's got to call up his friends.
	Hey man, I need a place to crash.
	I always hate that word. I need a place to crash.
	You're not crashing! You're not crashing.
	You're stinking up my couch because you're a lazy bum.
	I've always hated it. People got this cool word on stuff that it's just like, well, I mean, I get it if you're drunk and you're staying over.
	I'm going to crash on the couch.
	You're just sleeping.
	It's not crashing. So what happens when his friends tire of him?
	Well, he faces being out on the street.
	Now, when you face being out on the street, You wake the hell up and you end up making better decisions, right?
	I mean, you just will. Very few people are going to just ride that ridiculous irresponsibility pony straight off a cliff.
	Same thing with the woman, right?
	So the woman's sleeping around. And this is one of the reasons I spread this information, because I don't want men to get caught up with women who can't pair bond, as I wouldn't want women to get caught up with men who can't pair bond, but men's pair bonding survives multiple sex partners a lot better than women, I think.
	At least the statistics are clear for women that pair bonding is inversely dick-dependent, right?
	But if she ends up having kids with no dad around, well, then her parents have to kind of step in and have her move in and she's going to be living there and they're going to be, you know, triple parenting old Chinese style for the next 20 years.
	And because of that, see, because of that, the parents will step in and make sure that she dates the right boys, that there are chaperones, that, you know, she understands all of these things and they step in.
	Parents have abandoned sexuality because – or control over sexuality because the state has jumped in for consequences.
	So there's nothing that drives degeneracy more than state redistribution of power, of resources.
	A charity will care about a woman and will take care of a woman, but she has to be responsible or they're going to not bother with her, right?
	And in the libertarian society, it's the opposite of libertine because your terrible decisions, your degenerate decisions are not fair.
	Forcibly subsidized by more responsible people.
	And you end up just, of course, buying the votes of very irresponsible people and very bad people as a whole.
	So I just wanted to mention that.
	Go ahead. I agree with you up to a point.
	I mean, absolutely the welfare state in our current tax system simultaneously enables and in some cases encourage welfare.
	You know, levels of degeneracy within a populace, especially within, you know, with lower kind of income bracket populations that are extremely, you know, risk susceptible to the risks of, you know, vices and the more baser instincts.
	But I guess my issue is, I don't think it stems from that, right?
	My issue would be in the forming of a community.
	So take pornography, which is just the modern iteration of prostitution, which by counts is the oldest profession.
	If my small town had the maximum amount of autonomy from a government standpoint, which is something I would advocate for because it means that they have the largest accountability to the smallest amount of people.
	If we decided to outlaw porn, or sex work, or marijuana, or whatever the hypothetical life fit would be, the only way to sexually do that would be for us to legislate that through the monopoly of force of the government, but that legislation would have to come from a moral foundation where we all have a consensus that this thing is wrong.
	So if we all had different value preferences and different Well, so, I mean, the question of pornography is, of course, quite complicated. I would argue, again, my sort of one-size-fits-all paintbrush of illumination is, you know, where do the people who end up doing pornography come from?
	Well, they come from abused histories.
	They may be drug addicts, they may have Some sort of other addiction or something that makes them susceptible to this kind of, I would say, exploitation to some degree, because I don't imagine there's a massive amount of IQ floating around either.
	And so if you have peaceful parenting, if you have better parenting going on, then I think that would really help in terms of if you could really dry up, so to speak, the supply of women in particular who were willing to do pornography, which is a very short-sighted And I think Mike Sonovich was tweeting about there's a pornography actress,
	Khalifa, Mia Khalifa, something like that, and she was saying that she only made a couple of thousand bucks despite doing a huge amount of porn the previous year, and it's, you know, it's just, it's really, really bad all around.
	So I think that if we have better parenting, if we take care of our children to the point, I do believe that a lot of people who end up in pornography were sexually abused as children, which is why they don't have boundaries, which is why they don't feel that necessary reservation about public sexual acts recorded and cast around forever now.
	So I think if we took better care of our kids, if we raised them peacefully, if they weren't exposed to sexual predators as they so often are these days, if families were more stable, if moms stayed home, you know, moms not being home after school is causing a lot of problems for childhood.
	Because, you know, I mean, I was a latchkey kid.
	I got into some shenanigans and a half.
	I mean, it's really a huge problem.
	Is it really worth it for not much money?
	All right. Well, I'm going to move on to another caller.
	I really do appreciate your call.
	And let's talk about, ooh, the Fed, the Fed, the Fed, the Fed, the Fed.
	We're going to talk about the Federal Reserve with, I'm going to guess, Jose.
	Are you with me? I am.
	How are you doing, Stefan? I'm well.
	How are you doing? Yeah, yeah.
	Good, good. First time caller and long time listener.
	So I guess I wanted to ask, I guess I'll start with parenting.
	My wife and I were 33 years old.
	We just recently became parents.
	We have a 19 month old and an eight month old.
	Seven month old.
	Congratulations. Oh, thank you.
	And we're having the greatest time of our lives.
	It's a blessing. No question.
	I know you are one that believes no spanking whatsoever.
	Right, so what does discipline look like?
	What does discipline look like?
	And I have seen some of your videos about discipline.
	I mean, we have two boys, and our 19-month-old is starting to learn how to have an attitude.
	He's starting to be physical, like smacking and hitting.
	I just don't see how he can't spank that butt when he does stuff like that.
	Okay, but hang on.
	So he's 19-month-old, so the language that you use is really, really important in the world that you create for yourself.
	So when you say, my 19-month-old is already learning how to have attitude, what is the definition of attitude for you?
	I mean, hopefully it's not just disagreeing with you.
	Well, no, no. Like throwing yourself on the floor, throwing some tantrums, you know, and...
	You can start to see that manifest out of Him.
	Now, let me go back a little bit so you can kind of understand where I'm coming from.
	I do come from a biblical perspective.
	We strive to follow the Scriptures to the best of our ability.
	So we do come from a biblical perspective.
	We understand. We believe that, of course, man are fallen and we're born in sin.
	So there is that aspect where children, you start to see that sin come out of children at a very young age.
	Anger, all those things that are just part of human nature due to the fall of man.
	So when you say, what kind of attitude am I describing, that would be it.
	Well, okay, okay. So listen, hang on.
	Sorry to interrupt you. Sorry to interrupt you.
	Listen. So hang on.
	Hang on. Dude, dude, hold on.
	So man is fallen, right?
	Man is fallen. Man can't handle power.
	So why should you consider yourself holy enough to handle the power of violence over a tiny dependent creature?
	Because you're fallen too.
	You can't be less fallen than your 19-month-old child.
	So why would you have the right to use the power of violence against a child?
	Because you are also in a fallen state.
	The reason why we have to avoid violence is because it does corrupt us.
	It is a temptation.
	So, the fallen state of man does not give you the right to hit a child.
	It would keep you further back from hitting a child.
	And of course, as Jesus said, whatever you do to the least among me, so also do you do to me.
	And I assume that you would not hit Jesus, right?
	Well, correct.
	But we're not... When it comes to correcting a child's behavior, I mean, it gets to a point.
	Obviously, hitting...
	We do believe in...
	That's the absolute last resort.
	But I mean, again, it gets to the point where you say, stop, no, and then the child hits you.
	Being that very young, I think you should grab their hand, you know, spank their butt and say, no, stop.
	You're saying that that's violence.
	And I get it. It is a form of violence. Wait, wait, wait.
	You're saying, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	You're saying that the way that you, hang on, you're saying that the way you teach a child that hitting is wrong is you hit the child.
	Well, no, I'm not saying that it's wrong.
	What I'm trying to say is that what exactly do you do when it comes down to showing your child that you have the authority over that child?
	But if you hit a child, you're not showing the child that you have authority.
	You're just showing the child that you're bigger and might makes right.
	All you're doing is frightening the child and causing the child pain.
	That's not authority. Authority comes from the child respecting you and looking up to you.
	But then, okay, so then we have to literally just delete the Bible, right?
	Because the way the authority from God came upon Israel was by the rod, you know, by the sword.
	You know, either you do what you need to do, you follow according to the law.
	Of course, we're not under the law, but I'm just saying with Israel, it was either you followed the law or you were killed.
	Now, obviously, Israel fell short and they were following the law, which was not what God actually intended for them to do.
	It was God wanted them to love Him rather than trying to seek out the righteousness through the law.
	But the law was for sin.
	Okay, but hold on. Hold on a sec.
	Hold on a sec. Hold on a sec.
	Go ahead. You've got to pause yourself here, my friend.
	And I mean, my friend, not at all sarcastically.
	Like, I understand that it's really frustrating at that age with kids.
	But look, the moment that you start to bring...
	Honestly, just hang on, hang on, hang on.
	No, I get it. I don't want to kind of get, you know, I think we've probably spanked his butt maybe five times, if that, not even less than that.
	So it's not something that's like an epidemic or something.
	No, I get it. I get it. All I'm saying is he's going to get older, he's going to express those type of behaviors that need to be corrected, and to me, me just saying no 30 times, or my wife saying no 30 times, I don't see how that is, you know, he's obviously, he looks at no as it's nothing, right?
	Okay, I get it, I get it, I get it.
	Dude, dude, dude, don't make me spank you to get a word in edgewise here.
	You gotta let me have part of my show, okay?
	You gotta let me have part of my show, alright?
	Please. And I think I'm understanding why your son is frustrated.
	Okay, because you're a bit of a one-way street here.
	I'm trying to back up a little.
	So when you start bringing the sword as a justification into your parenting, you've taken a wrong turn somewhere, right?
	Because you can't be sitting there saying, well, you know, the law is enforced by a sword, and that's the basis of my parenting.
	You can't bring a sword.
	You know, don't bring a gun to a knife fight, and don't bring a sword to a parenting discussion.
	That's not the way to go, right?
	Let me ask you this, though. Let me ask you this.
	I'm using those terms as metaphoric.
	It's not, obviously. No, I get it.
	Even as a metaphor, it's fairly harsh, right?
	So give me an example.
	Give me an example of your son.
	And there are people in the chat saying, well, boys are different than girls.
	No, that's not true.
	I mean, of course, boys are different than girls.
	But I have friends who have...
	Boys. I have a friend who has three boys, one on the way.
	I have a friend who has three boys, and they are very reasonable.
	They love each other.
	They're not talking back.
	They're homeschooled, most of them, and it's all going fine.
	Because just saying no to a child doesn't instruct the child in anything.
	So give me an example of a behavior in your son that you want to change, and I'll tell you how I think it should work.
	All right. What would you think, love?
	I'll have my wife pitch in here.
	Yeah. A tantrum, but a tantrum about what, let's say?
	I'll give an example here.
	So if we tell him not to touch something, and he continues to touch it.
	Now, mind you, I don't think we've never gone to the point where we had to spank him over anything of touching.
	We're willing to go the extra mile and tell him 100 times no and remove him from the area to stop him from touching something.
	And he normally gets it.
	He won't touch it for, you know, an hour and then he'll go back and doing it again.
	Of course, he's a baby.
	So it is what it is.
	OK, so what's he touching?
	When he starts to get...
	No, sorry, what is he, can you hear me, what is he touching?
	Okay, okay, so my wife just said, here's an example.
	He was over the couch touching the printer.
	My wife went to grab him.
	He's nice enough to get him down, and he looked at my wife and then smacked his mother.
	Smacked his own hand.
	He wanted to hit me, but he smacked his own hand.
	So my wife said that he smacked his own hand.
	But looking at my wife, of course, his mother, as in an anger situation, You know, he's angry, and he's mad that his mother removed him from what he was doing, right?
	So, again, that is one side, but it gets to the point where my wife, you know, his mother will pick him up, go get him changed, and, of course, he'll get mad, and he'll smack his mother in that situation.
	And my wife will obviously spank his butt because he's on her shoulder, spank his butt and say, you don't hit, right?
	Okay, but, you know, okay, hang on, hang on.
	So hang on, you've got to occasionally dip in and ask me if I want to say something, brother, okay?
	Really, because I hate having to keep yelling over you.
	Okay, well, recognize that you're nervous and deal with it, all right?
	Okay, so first of all, you can move the printer, right?
	You can move the printer to some place where your son is not going to be around, and you solve the problem.
	I don't mean to interrupt you. He's jumping over the couch.
	It's behind the couch. So he's getting on the couch, walking on the couch.
	I get it. I get it.
	You can move the printer.
	No, but he's climbing over the couch to get to the printer, right?
	Okay, so you move the printer, and your problem is solved.
	That's number one. Number two, if you spank your children, then your son, I assume, has seen, I can't remember if you have other kids, but your son has seen other kids being hit, or he has been hit himself.
	And so, listen, your son wants to emulate you, right?
	I mean, you probably haven't taught him half the words that he's learned.
	He's just learned from observing you.
	He's learned his accent from observing you.
	And so your son wishes to imitate and to copy what it is that you do.
	And if you solve problems by hitting, and then you say, well, I can't believe my son would hit to solve a problem.
	In other words, if you say, well, son, I disapprove of what you're doing, so I'm going to hit you.
	And then your son disapproves of what you're doing, i.e.
	moving him away from the printer, so he hits you.
	I mean, you've taught him exactly how to do that, and then you blame him for being just like doing what you do.
	Well, hold on.
	We've never hit our child until he was angry and physical with us.
	And I say physical, I mean, that's not even – you can't even use that term when it comes to an infant.
	But what I'm saying is we've never – we wanted to follow what you were saying.
	Like, we believe in that.
	You know, like I said, hitting is not even something we're fond of.
	We hate it, and we hate ourselves for even having to get to that point.
	But what I'm saying is that it's only whenever we've ever spanked his butt, and it's not like it's hard where it's leaving marks or anything, we spank his butt and make him realize that it's like, no, and of course I understand your argument that we're teaching him something that he's learning that it's okay, and I get that kind of understanding there.
	But it's just, it's based on when he gets angry and physical at that age, we feel as if, like, wow, like, who's going to, how is me saying no, don't hit, you know, when do you, when, yeah, stopping that behavior, and I get it, we're kind of, how is hitting going to stop that behavior?
	So I understand your argument there as well.
	Well, look, so the way that you modify your child's...
	What would be your alternative, I guess? Yeah, so there's a couple of alternatives.
	There's a couple of alternatives. So first of all, you want to remove The objects from the environment that you might not want your child to touch, right?
	So obviously you take a hot plate away.
	You keep the child out of the kitchen if you're cooking.
	You put the child-proof plugs on the plugs.
	So you put the fences on the stairs.
	So you try and find ways.
	To remove danger from the child's environment, which is very important.
	Now, is that 100% of the time?
	Well, you can't leave a 19-month-year-old unattended at all, right?
	So then, if your child is going to go and do something that you don't want the child to do, you gain the child's attention, and you say, hey, let's play pick-up sticks, let's read a book, let's watch a video, let's...
	Whatever. Whatever you've got that you can do, right?
	So you can find ways to distract your child.
	Now, the other thing you do is you try to have as calm and peaceful a conversation when you're not upset with your child saying, you know, here's what you can do, here's what you can't do, here's what we like, here's what we don't like.
	And you may have to do that 10 or 20 times calmly and peacefully in order for your child to not do what you don't want them to do.
	Now, of course, we always have to have the contingency.
	So let's say that your child is still doing something that you don't want him to do.
	Then you can pick him up and move him to safety.
	That's not violent, right?
	You're not hitting him. And then you have disapproval.
	Your child is so desperate for your approval because we're all programmed to seek the approval of our parents because the children who didn't care about that, well, they just didn't get any food or they didn't, you know, when they were running from the predator, the uncompliant child was sort of left behind.
	So we're all trained to desperately seek the approval of our parents.
	And so you would be amazed at how powerful it is to say, I am not pleased with you at the moment.
	I am not pleased with you at all.
	And then turn and walk away.
	Listen, it's not an abusive thing to say honestly to your child you're very displeased.
	And, you know, when my daughter was, when we were roughhousing and she got older, I would have to a couple of times say to her, listen, you're getting older, you're getting stronger, you can't swing so wildly if she'd sort of thumped me or something like that.
	And if she did hit me carelessly, even after I'd said a couple of times, be more careful, I would just say, I'm not playing.
	Like, I'm not playing. This is not fun for me.
	It's dangerous. It's unpleasant.
	I'm not doing it. Like, I'm not...
	And she would be like, oh, like, I'm really sorry.
	And that's like, look, I get it.
	I mean, I know you're not trying to hurt me, but your carelessness is dangerous.
	And I can't play with you if I'm not safe, right?
	And then I wouldn't do it for a little while, right?
	And that is not...
	That's abusive, that's honest, that's valid, and so on, you know?
	And so you can do all of these things, but only if you don't have spanking as an option.
	I guess the argument on our side is, like, we want to get the child's attention, our child's attention, because we want to reiterate to the child that it's really bad what he just did, right?
	And unfortunately, I guess that's just our...
	I guess our fallen nature, I guess you would say, because you're obviously arguing for a different approach that doesn't involve spanking.
	But the way my mind would work is, of course, and I remind you I come from a biblical perspective, is that I need my child to understand that this is unacceptable, right?
	So that's where it goes to the spanking on the butt, and it's something I hate.
	I don't want to do it ever, but when he gets to the point where he's getting physical or he slaps He would slap me on the face.
	Things like that. He doesn't know what he's doing, probably.
	But at the same time, I want to get his attention.
	I don't want the normal no or the normal enough.
	I want him to know, hey, this is unacceptable behavior by you.
	Okay, so I'm going to have to interrupt you here.
	I've got to interrupt you because I've made a case and you're just repeating the same things over and over.
	So what I would say is listen back to what it is that I'm saying because you have a kind of mental groove in your head, like a train track.
	Which is, you know, well, I've got to get his attention, and I've got to convince him that it's not right, and I've got to do this, and I've got to do that, and it's biblical this, and swords about that, and I've given you a whole bunch of examples of other ways to deal with it.
	Right now, you're kind of stuck on the train track, and I sympathize with that.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I took it in. No, no, because you're just justifying hitting again.
	So, have a listen back to the show.
	No, no, I'm not justifying it.
	I'm not justifying it all.
	I'm just trying to explain my perspective, and I'm not saying it's right...
	Wrong or anything like that.
	I'm just trying to explain it in another way because, again, I'm nervous, so I'm just trying to explain it so you understand where I'm coming from.
	But believe me, I do want to practice good parenting and especially don't hit.
	And I hope that as he gets older and he can start communicating with us, we can communicate and hitting will never be Well, that would be great, but my concern is that the trust factor might be lower if you've already hit, and that's going to displace proper communication.
	So anyway, I've made the case.
	I've got a whole bunch of videos on spanking, and I hope that you check it out.
	And listen, I really do appreciate you calling in about that.
	It's a very, very important topic, and I'm very glad to have the opportunity.
	To do it. I'm so sorry.
	We've got like 144 people who want to get through.
	I will try and get through as quickly as I can.
	And let's see.
	Mark wants to talk about war.
	I think we may have to abandon the whole libertarian topic because I don't seem to be getting a lot of critics calling in, which is a shame.
	I was kind of hoping that they would call in.
	But you wanted to talk about war, my friend?
	Yeah, Mr. Mong, thanks for taking my call.
	Well, it does have a lot to do with the topic.
	I do believe you're a libertarian.
	I have watched you for a couple years.
	As a matter of fact, the first video that I watched you that actually became a follower of yours was when I think her name is Emma Watson made that speech to the UN. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	That's right. That was a good video.
	Yeah. Oh, it was a fantastic video, my friend.
	It was excellent. And anyway, long story short, I became a follower of yours watching your videos.
	I don't doubt you're not a libertarian.
	I think you are.
	You're familiar with Adam Kokesh?
	You've had him on your show.
	I was on Adam vs.
	the Man back in the day when he had that show.
	I think it was on RT. So yes, I do know Adam.
	I've met him personally a bunch of times, and we've done a bunch of shows together, and I've talked to him in some very unusual places.
	So what's that? Yeah.
	Well, I'll get to the point.
	You know, you had a debate with him about immigration.
	Being a libertarian in regards to the topic of war, especially With these recent events with Iran, I am anti-war.
	I don't like the United States, which is...
	I live in Alabama.
	I'm not for foreign wars and regime changes and all this.
	This has nothing to do with the American population, honestly.
	Most of the people I talk to don't really give a damn about it, and they don't want to be nosy and in other people's business.
	My question is this.
	Being a libertarian, Non-aggression principle.
	People call us isolationists, which I don't believe that's true.
	What happens when we cease to be some federal nation or federal government where our military, quote-unquote, is not in foreign lands?
	Do other countries begin to have more power?
	How do we deal with that? I'm not sure if I can articulate it any better than that.
	Do you understand what my question is?
	No, I do understand the question.
	I'm going to try and paraphrase it for you and just for the audience's sake and let me know if I get anything wrong.
	So this is the question of the power vacuum, right?
	So America is the world's policeman.
	America has 800 military bases around the world and American commandos are in three quarters of the countries around the world.
	And if America withdraws its forces from around the world, then other powers are going to rush in and take over.
	And I talk about this in something you guys should all watch like right now.
	Well, okay, maybe right after this, my documentary on Hong Kong.
	You can't find it on YouTube to save your life.
	It's ghosted, baby, almost like it's hidden, crouching tiger, hidden dragon documentary.
	But you can go to fdrurl.com forward slash Hong Kong and you can get it that way.
	I talk about it in there that the British felt in terms of trading with Hong Kong that if they didn't get the trade started with Hong Kong then the French or the Portuguese or some other power was going to do it and displace them and so they went rushing in.
	And so the idea is that if America withdraws, other more malevolent powers are going to sweep in and take up resources and gain strength, and then, you know, some X thing happens and terrible consequences.
	Is that a fair way to put it?
	It's very close.
	More to the point, what I'm trying to get at is being...
	Let's say that we become super libertarian anarcho-capitalist.
	Would it serve a purpose...
	If none of the...
	Nobody else in the world did the same.
	I don't know.
	Let's say everyone in the street beats your wife and you stop beating your wife or never beat your wife.
	Does that mean that it's bad?
	Somebody has to take the first step.
	The first country to end slavery started the ball going, right?
	I mean, you've got to make this step in the right direction.
	Here's the problem, right?
	The problem is that so much of American military force is overseas that there's no Department of Defense available to stop the mass invasion from the southern border.
	Right? That's the issue, right?
	There's so much going on that's overseas.
	So much focus overseas.
	It's kind of like, you know, I don't know if you've heard or read Lord of the Rings or seen the movies or whatever, right?
	Spoiler! It's been out for a while, right?
	So in Lord of the Rings, in Lord of the Rings, they create this massive distraction at the gates of Mordor where that weird fang-toothed guy with the cocky head kind of spins back and forth.
	And they do that so that Frodo and Samwise can go in through the back door and sneak into Mordor and destroy the ring, right?
	So my concern, I think a reasonable concern, is that foreign policy in the U.S., everybody focusing on Iran, on Lebanon, on Iraq, on Afghanistan, you name it, right?
	That all of that is just this big, giant, massive distraction.
	You know, it's a pretty—it's a trope of, like, the America Firsters and the Gropers that— America has funded a border wall in Lebanon and has helped fund a border wall in Israel, but doesn't have a border wall.
	I know Trump just won. A court case to release, I think, I don't know, three and a half billion bucks to try and build a new...
	And why a court is necessary for essential protection of the American homeland when you've got a commander-in-chief authorized by the Constitution as the president.
	But that's where the focus needs to be in America.
	Look, a quarter of a Mexico has moved to America, and most of it, or a lot of it, is not legal.
	And the idea that America needs to be the world's policeman while having a ridiculously porous and destructive border situation on the South, you know, I mean, listen, if I were an American, this is what I would say.
	I would say, hey man, I'll take the chance of something bad happening in Lebanon if it closes the border to the South.
	I'll take the chance that China's going to move in a little bit more in Australia If I can close the border to the south, I'll take the chance that something bad might happen if we withdraw from Afghanistan if we stop the migrant program in America, right? So that's where I think people's focus needs to be.
	The power vacuum that's actually occurring is because of the overseas focus, the homeland is under assault.
	Right, so when is it okay then?
	Stefan, in these type of actions as far as like the Trump taking action to prevent war, because we know both sides can paint it however they want.
	It could be, oh, first it's, oh my God, he's not doing enough.
	Then the second time it's, oh my God, he's going to, he's escalating.
	It's all this, I think it's BS. Like if we were to become true libertarians where we're not interfering and we're not getting foreign aid, we don't need to go to court to find the funds.
	We have plenty of Taxation that they've stolen from us already.
	So that being said, when is it okay for us to either be the aggressor or defend ourselves, and how do we know the difference?
	Well, when you can see the whites of their eyes coming across the border.
	Because you're not defending, America's not defending itself.
	There is a soft welfare invasion occurring in the South that is stripping resources from the American taxpayer, from the unborn through debt and unfunded liabilities, which is fundamentally distorting the entire electoral system that is ballot stuffing, that is vote buying, that is wrong on every conceivable level.
	And of course, now that the Democrats know that they don't have a candidate who could beat Trump, They're just going to be gerrymandering the vote as much as possible with illegals.
	And we know everything that's going to occur, that the illegals are going to be able to get driver's license.
	And then through the driver's license, they're going to be automatically registered to vote.
	And all of this garbage is going to happen, right?
	So as far as, hang on.
	But as far as, well, what are we going to do in the future?
	It's like, who cares?
	It's like America's lying there bleeding out from a femoral artery wound and then we're saying, well, yes, but in the future, where am I going to get my nails done?
	It's like, okay, how about you close off the big gusher of an artery wound and then you figure out how you're going to get your nails cut?
	Later on down the road.
	Like this constant focus on, well, what if and how about and who knows and China does this and it's like, who cares?
	You've got a gusher on the southern border.
	And, you know, maybe deal with that first and foremost and deal with, like, shut down immigration, shut down the migration.
	I mean, there's a great presentation.
	You've probably heard of it or seen it.
	It's the gumballs.
	You just look up gumballs immigration.
	Immigration can never solve the world's problems.
	All it can do is stuff ballots for the left.
	All right. Well, thanks, man. I appreciate your call.
	That's very, very interesting. And yeah, thanks, man.
	I appreciate that. All right. All right.
	Let's see here. All right.
	Let's do a little bit more of the libertarian thing.
	And there's more spanking.
	So I guess we're going to do the non-aggression principle.
	And summer and republicanism versus libertarianism.
	I don't know what any of that means, caller, but you're on.
	If you know the question, I'm happy to hear.
	Hi. So I was like wanting to talk about some of the things that are happening in Colorado as a result of the strong libertarian presence we have here versus kind of a stable Republican population that we had.
	But when the libertarian started pushing for marijuana to be legalized, that ended up combining with the Democrat and the liberal vote or the Left-wing vote and ended up just pulling in tons of socialists and like bottom-seaters.
	Wait, so sorry, the libertarians came and wanted legalized marijuana and that drew a bunch of socialists in?
	Yes. And so then we just ended up with a completely liberal Congress.
	Senate and governorship, because it just pulled in all the Democrats.
	And there's other factors, too.
	I mean, we had a lot of military move in from out of state.
	But right now, we just had a massive change in the past two to three years, starting with the marijuana, like four or five years ago, I think.
	And then it started filling up all of the low-income housing when marijuana came in.
	Pushing those price ranges, like, out of whack.
	And then we had a lot of people come in for the bigger jobs that have liberal leanings and pushed all of our housing into a crazy, like, place.
	But more of the concern is, like, I have libertarian friends, because there's a strong libertarian group Slightly higher priorities in the world Yeah,
	exactly. But like that kind of thing, it's like, well, you know, I've been a very strong conservative Republican.
	I actually have been a national delegate in 2008.
	And then when I had kids, I kind of pulled out of the realm of politics until they started going crazy last year in the state legislature and like pushing through tons of extremely explicit sexual education that wasn't there prior.
	And Anyway, if you look at the state of our legislature, they're completely liberal and just pushing things like a freight train through.
	And then everyone, like before in my district, nobody could put in taxes because we had strong Republicans and strong libertarians.
	But then when the liberals started coming in from flooding in for those looser policies, like with marijuana and big stuff, Then they started going, well, we want stuff.
	And then now all these tax bills that are just the worst, like the worst tax initiatives that have ever been written are now getting passed.
	And so now we have like this completely liberal society with, and it's really hard, you know, because we have like a very strong libertarian and Republican native population.
	And I feel like if the libertarians hadn't Pushed for marijuana and those other freedoms that we wouldn't have had those socialists coming in.
	Anyway... Right, right.
	No, this is going to get me back to some of the pork fest shock that I went through in circling around the libertarian camp and is of course going to get a lot of hate from some libertarians because although I remember earlier very clearly even in this show talking about libertine is not the same as libertarianism,
	The issue of legalizing marijuana is so important to libertarians that it makes my spider sense tingle all kinds of six ways from Sunday.
	Like, oh my god.
	I have no respect for drugs.
	I have no respect for drugs.
	I have no respect for people who take a lot of drugs.
	You know, okay, you tried it once in college.
	Who cares, right? I never have.
	But, you know, whatever, right? But the people to whom drugs become like weed, it becomes like this lifestyle and this alternative thing.
	You've got to wear the hemp shirts and you've got to hang around in the yurts.
	I feel like I'm about to start rapping or something.
	I just have no respect for it because to me, marijuana is a way to just escape reality, escape problems, escape the truth, escape yourself, escape the fact that your friends are boring when they're sober and so on.
	It's like a lot of drinking.
	I have no respect. For alcoholics, alcoholism, and so on.
	Again, I have some sympathy. Once you're in that lifestyle, it's tough to get out, and there may be genetic elements to it and so on.
	But that's why you don't do it.
	Why does a sensible person never try cocaine?
	Because either it's not that great, in which case it's dangerous, or it is that great, in which case you're going to miss it forever.
	There's just no upside to trying this stuff.
	And I do remember when I first went to places like Porkfest and so on, being quite...
	I wouldn't say quite appalled, but a little shocked that it was not a lot of analysis of Misesi and critiques of socialism, and it was a whole lot of guns, drugs, and cheap sex.
	And there was...
	Something that I thought, hmm, I don't think you're serving the truth here.
	I don't think you're serving virtue.
	It's not that you don't like the state.
	It's that you don't like rules that interfere with your hedonism.
	Now, I'm not a fan of the war on drugs or anything like that, but the problem is...
	It's like immigration.
	You can have immigration, or you can have a welfare state.
	You can't have both.
	Now, you can legalize drugs, but if you still have a welfare state, then people are going to take drugs, they're going to burn out, they're going to fry their brains, and they're going to sit on the taxpayer's dollar.
	If you don't have consequences, you cannot have a libertine or hedonistic foundation to your society, because that just makes it worse and worse and worse.
	And that's kind of my reason for being a Republican versus a Libertarian, because I feel like we set a limit for those things.
	And like a lot of people will, like with the marijuana side of things, I was getting into arguments with people and they're like, well, it's not as bad as alcohol.
	And I was like, well, I don't know a lot of teetotaling pot smokers.
	You know, you're doing both.
	And that's what we're seeing here.
	But yeah, I like the limits that having, you know, a Republican mindset starts to set.
	But at the same time, like a lot of the Ron Paul people in 2008 didn't get the candidate they wanted, so they actually came in and overtook the Republican hedge leadership.
	So actually, the Republican leaders are now the libertarians of yesterday, right?
	Which is kind of an interesting shift that we started to have here.
	No, and I would have a lot more respect for politically oriented libertarians if they focused on dismantling the welfare state more than they focused on getting their hands on the green.
	That, for me, would be much more.
	But, you know, that's a tougher fight and it's less hedonistic.
	And, you know, if people are addicted, and yes, you can get addicted to marijuana, and yes, you can obviously get addicted to alcohol and other kinds of drugs, right?
	But if you are an addict, then you're a liar.
	I mean, that's the nature of addiction.
	It turns people into constant falsifiers.
	They have to lie to themselves about the nature and extent of their addiction.
	They have to lie to themselves and say, no, man, I'm exploring an alternate reality.
	It's like, no, you're just frying your brain cells.
	You're just running away from the only reality that is.
	So you have to lie to yourself, then you have to lie to others, and then you have to lie about the virtue of what it is that you're doing.
	And if you're in a it's better than alcohol mindset and you haven't dropped whatever you're talking about, you know, I just don't have respect for that.
	I don't have time for that. So my concern is that if you are some kind of drug addict and then you're really, really keen to legalize that drug, well, maybe that has a lot more to do with your addiction than your philosophy.
	So what would the difference be between that Conservative Republican and the Libertarian, because from my perspective or what I've seen, it is kind of these marijuana issues or those things that they just want free reign to versus having kind of that moral or, you know, boundary line where Republicans go, no, we're not going to have full freedom on those items.
	Yeah, no, that's a very good question.
	I do believe that in the polls that you're talking about, like the polarities that you're talking about, and this is not anything more than a local statement, but if you are concerned about liberty, then you should focus on that which diminishes liberty the most.
	And taxation and redistribution does destroy liberty the most, right?
	It destroys incentive on the part of those receiving it, which subsidizes, as I said, their bad decisions.
	And it destroys the property rights of the people who are paying into it.
	Now, how many people really want to smoke pot versus how many people pay taxes, right?
	So if you're focused on pot smoking rather than reducing taxes, reducing welfare, and that kind of stuff, then it is a kind of hedonistic thing.
	It's something you want rather than something that would be principled.
	Now, I mean, people could say to me, well, gosh, you know, Steph, but you're not.
	I mean, of course, I've been advocating for the elimination of the welfare state basically since I was about 16 or 17 years old.
	I think it's still yet to come, maybe tomorrow.
	But that is a general principle.
	What is the most prevalent and controllable violation of the non-aggression principle?
	Well, hitting children, right?
	Which is why I'll have the conversations like the ones I had with people tonight.
	So figure out what is the biggest and most egregious violation of the non-aggression principle Blend into it to some degree how you can affect it the most.
	And then work on that.
	And people who aren't doing that, it's usually just something for the I, me, me, I rather than the good of the world as a whole.
	All right. Well, thanks for the call. I appreciate that.
	And it's always fascinating to get these windows into places that I don't know.
	My gosh, we have 180 people almost who want to get in.
	So I will. Let's do more libertarianism because I, likey, likey, likey.
	Sean, are you with me?
	You want to talk about libertarianism and communism?
	Yeah, Stephan is...
	First of all, it's a pleasure to talk to you.
	And as far as the libertarianism goes, I'm kind of lost as to where it's at right now because my dad, he's, you know, I'm 20 years old in college and I left as a libertarian and now I'm like hardcore, hard, you know, Bible thumper, like all that.
	And so from that perspective, I went into economics, had a fantastic Economics teacher, and he was a libertarian.
	And, you know, it's the ultimate goal of the libertarians and the communists.
	And I think that they operate out of a utopia, like a perfect world.
	And then they argue down from that based on how their tactics would be effective.
	And I really fail to see where the line is From, you know, the non-aggression principle and then basic or intrinsic Christian morality.
	Well, see, this is the thing, and I did talk about this on, you know, every now and then somebody retweets an old tweet of mine, and I'm like, damn, that's good.
	So this was a tweet that somebody reposted yesterday, and it went something like this.
	Christians... Accept the reality of human evil, and in many ways the inevitability of human evil, which is why they tend to focus on limiting political power.
	Communists and socialists believe that human beings are perfectible, and therefore you can get perfect angels to run political institutions, and they can't be or won't be corrupted by power.
	Looking at history, which perspective is the most accurate?
	Now, the one thing that is great, and you heard about this with the caller I was talking to earlier with regards to spanking, that he said, we're all fallen.
	We're all fallen. And so I used the argument saying, well, then you're too fallen to use violence against your children, because that's, you know, basic argument, right?
	So when you say...
	Human beings are fallen and human susceptibility to evil is a constant, then you have to say, well, you can't then allow massive aggregations of political power in the hands of an elite because they are going to be corrupted by that power and they're going to be destroyed by that power and they're going to become even more evil because of that power.
	But you're right. The...
	The communists say, oh yeah, human beings can totally be perfect, and we'll just kill everyone who isn't perfect, and then it turns out everyone's not perfect, and the whole system self-destructs.
	Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of dead in the water right now.
	Brain's gravy.
	Just kind of starstruck that I'm talking to you, but yeah, so...
	Man. I'm going to have that as the new tagline for my show.
	Stefan Molyneux, free domain, turning brains to gravy since 2005.
	Yes. Yes, that would be fantastic.
	All right, well...
	I kind of just wanted to drop that in.
	Hey, tell your dad if he wants to talk communism, have him call in.
	That would be great. And thanks for your call, man.
	I appreciate that. And, you know, stay strong.
	You know, it's tough when you drift from the foundational beliefs of your elders.
	It's really tough, but it's also a very fertile place to be.
	So thanks for the call. I appreciate that.
	And let's talk to, I believe it is...
	Eduardo, you wanted to talk about convincing libertarians about the rationale for voting libertarian.
	Is that right? Yes, but really quick, I'd just like to preface it saying I'm a huge fan of your show.
	I've been watching for probably four or five years now, so it's awesome to talk to you.
	Don't forget to blink! I appreciate that, man.
	It's a great pleasure to chat with you as well.
	So if you don't mind, let me re-explain myself because I didn't think I would get through and I didn't probably word that the best way I could.
	So when it comes to debating people or trying to convince somebody that they should vote libertarian, I often discuss the principles of libertarianism, whereas most people are going to be concerned with pragmatism.
	How do you begin to convince somebody that the free market can...
	Do all the things that the government does.
	I mean, that's a huge thing to tackle on, and I know your show is a great resource that provides plenty of answers like that, but like...
	You know, actually, I'll just leave it at that.
	I don't even know how else to ask the question.
	No, that's fine. I get the question.
	Yeah, I get the question.
	So, yeah, as far as coercion versus voluntarism goes, the way that...
	I start these kinds of conversations, as I would say, like, forget about everyone, the roads, the defense, forget about all of that stuff, right?
	So the way to start the conversation, I think, is to say something like this.
	What other aspects of your life do you think the government should have massive control over?
	In other words, do you think that the government should choose who you marry, right?
	And people would say... God, no.
	Like, what a nightmare.
	Oh, okay, so that's really bad, right?
	Do you think that the government should choose Your job, your occupation.
	Oh, no, no, I really want to be free to choose my own occupation.
	Okay, what about where you live?
	Should the government choose where you live, or should that be up to you, right?
	Oh, no, no, I've got to choose where I am.
	Okay, should the government choose your friendships, or should you be free to choose your friendships?
	How about your hobbies?
	How about this? Like, you can just go down a list, right, of everything.
	How about your furniture? Should the government choose your furniture, and the color of your wall, and should the government choose your car, or whether you have, like, so people will talk about all the stuff they love choosing, right?
	I'd say, okay, so then you say, so then there's areas wherein you say, well, if the government had control over this, this would be terrible, right?
	But there are other areas where you say the government should have control, and I'm just wondering what the difference is.
	Like, what is the difference between areas where, oh my god, if the government had control, that'd be the worst thing ever, and if the government didn't have control, that'd be the worst thing ever, and just Get people to think about how much they treasure their liberties.
	And then you would say, listen, wouldn't we want a society...
	Where the maximum amount of choice and freedom and responsibility existed.
	And you don't say, well, the maximum is 100% stateless society and here's how we do the roads and here's how we do national defense.
	Nothing like that. But wouldn't we want to push as much as possible human freedom, human liberty?
	And if the government doesn't get to tell you how to make your money, then how is it really fair that the government tells you how to spend half your money?
	And if we could get that number down and still get good things in society, wouldn't that be for the better?
	Because if you can't get people to be excited about the destination, they're not going to want to go on the journey, if that makes sense, right?
	So give them a sense of all the things that you treasure about your liberties.
	If we could have those in more areas, Wouldn't that be great?
	Wouldn't that be good? And then they'll say, yes, but bad things will happen.
	It's like, yeah, yeah, okay. That's a different conversation.
	But can we at least agree that if we could get good things out of more freedom, that would be worth pursuing, right?
	Because when you talk to people about having less freedom, like no freedom to choose who they marry or their friends or their job or their house or their car or whatever, then people were like, no, that's bad, right?
	So you want to keep these freedoms.
	And certainly America and the West grew with far more freedoms, and certainly we have fewer freedoms now.
	Would more freedoms be better?
	And if we could, right?
	And so if they're interested in more freedoms, then you can start to explore how those could be achieved.
	But if you're just like, we need 100% stateless society, then people are like, whoa!
	They don't even necessarily agree with the destination or its value, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, no, it totally makes sense.
	Yeah, I've always struggled with it because there's so many different things to like even begin to, you know, as soon as you even mention a stateless society, people will pick apart every possible thing that is funded by taxpayer money.
	And, you know, it's obviously really hard to explain those kinds of things.
	Generally, I would say, you know, I would expect somebody who's smarter than me in the free market to solve that kind of issue.
	And obviously that, to me, it makes sense.
	But most people will just rely on, oh, I can't believe it.
	I can't see it.
	I don't see how it happened.
	Right. Now, that's a very interesting thing, because the great thing about freedom is you don't have to know how it works.
	In fact, you can't. So I've used this analogy before, but it's been a while, so I'll consider it original.
	So you go back and say, okay, so let's talk about 1820.
	So in 1820, I know exactly where you're going with this.
	I've actually heard you talk about it.
	Of course, it was through slavery until the cotton, what's it called, the cotton wheel was invented, which then Production increased greatly, and we no longer have slaves.
	Well, yeah, so you would say that the people who first advocated, like Wilberforce and all the people who first advocated for slavery, did they have to know how the cotton would be picked?
	In order to say slavery was wrong?
	And the answer, of course, is, well, no, of course they don't have to know how the cotton should be picked.
	Of course not. Right? So there's like a moral principle that slavery is wrong.
	Slavery is wrong because...
	The slave owner would restrict your occupation and the slave owner would take 20-30% of your income for himself.
	And people are surprised because they think the slave owner takes 100%, but it's not quite true because the slave owner provides housing and food and health care and clothing.
	So a lot of money goes back into the slaves.
	So it's bad because the slave owner took 20-30% of your income and restricted where you could work.
	And that's bad, right?
	And you say, okay, yeah, okay, well, we keep less of our money than slaves, so to speak.
	We have more mobility of labor, but we keep less of our money than slaves do, right?
	So then you say, okay, well, if, let's say, that we have no taxation or something like that, then people freak out because they can't imagine how.
	Society would run in the absence of coercion and the absence of theft and the absence of the state and the absence of taxation.
	They kind of freak out. But what history has taught us is that That's called stagnation because nobody can know.
	I mean, we don't even know what the weather's going to be like in two weeks.
	We don't know what the stock price of Apple is going to be five minutes from now, assuming Ricky Gervais is not speaking, right?
	So we don't know.
	We have to make decisions based upon principles rather than upon consequences, right?
	So we don't say to kids, we don't say to our kids, okay, listen, when it comes to shoplifting, if there's no cameras, If there's no security guards, if there's none of those fisheye mirrors, if you're pretty certain you can get away with it, you should totally take what you want.
	We don't say that to kids. We say there's a principle.
	And even if the store is abandoned, or the owner is outside throwing up because he ate a bad burrito or something, you don't go in and steal.
	If the cops are standing down and there's some kind of riot, you don't just go in and steal, right?
	There's a principle involved, and the principle is not, can I get away with it?
	In other words, we don't judge the morality of what we do based upon the consequences, but upon the action itself.
	The universalization of the action and all that kind of stuff, right?
	So... We don't individually make decisions, right?
	We don't say, yeah, you can steal from that guy if he's passed out because there's no way he's going to be able to identify you in a lineup.
	I mean, the guy's unconscious. We don't say that.
	We say it looks wrong to steal.
	And so with kids, we don't say, well, you can steal the candy bar because you're just a kid and so you're not going to jail, right?
	So we say that there's a morality based upon the actions that's not related to consequences.
	And if you look at advancements in society, they all have to do with making decisions based on moral principles and saying to Helbert, the consequences, they don't matter.
	And it turns out that if you make decisions based on moral principles, the consequences generally tend to be really, really good.
	Really, really good. Like if you don't beat your wife, she has the chance to love you.
	You know, rather than just be terrified of you.
	And so the moment that we shift into consequences, we're breaking every moral rule we ever learned as children and every moral rule that we instruct our own children with.
	And that's not a very good thing to do.
	So forget about the consequences.
	We just need to talk about the principles of what's right and what's wrong.
	And then, you know, you can lead them into, okay, what is a government?
	Well, the government is this. And you say the government doesn't really exist.
	It's just a concept, and I'm not allowed to steal from you.
	I'm not allowed to counterfeit, but the government is.
	How is that right? They're just people like you and me.
	So you can start to get into all of those discussions, but as long as they understand that the consequences cannot be...
	Referred to. They can't be the deciding factor because nobody knows.
	It's absolutely impossible and it doesn't matter, right?
	What matters is the moral principle involved.
	So that's number one.
	And number two, they have to, once you've got consequences out of the way, you can start talking about the morals and you can start leading them into the red pill world of what is the state and cops are just you and me with costumes and it's all about belief and And propaganda.
	And, you know, that's a pretty powerful place.
	But at least you've got them out of the, well, it can't possibly work.
	It's like, you don't know that.
	You don't know what the future is.
	And you don't know how cotton is going to be picked after we free the slaves.
	Nobody does. Of course.
	Yeah, I totally understand that.
	And, you know, that's actually a great way of actually having that kind of conversation.
	Because... I guess at the end of the day, the principles do matter more than the consequences, which at the end of the day, we really don't know.
	No, you don't know. And here's the other thing, too.
	When you're debating with people, it's different for me.
	Was it Jake Tapper or someone online with regards to, we can see these things.
	You're not allowed to have them, but we can see these things.
	So it's different for me if I'm debating on Twitter or if I'm debating on some big show or some public show or whatever.
	I'm debating for the sake of the audience.
	But when you have one-on-one debates, it's very, very important to figure out who's there in good faith and who's there in bad faith.
	In other words, there are people who are like, well, I'd really like to be free, but I can't figure out how...
	Or people who are just like...
	I want political power.
	I like political power.
	I'm a sadist and I just want to torture you mentally, right?
	Find those people out pretty quickly.
	And so when you say consequences don't matter when it comes to morality, there are some people who are like, oh my gosh, that's right.
	Here I've been wrapped up in consequences.
	Let's at least talk about the principles for now.
	We can revisit the consequences later.
	Or other people who are like...
	Well, that's totally sociopathic that you would like.
	Oh, so the whole world could burn just so you could have your little paradise and you don't care if children starve in the streets and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	And then it's like, okay, that's just a troll and you want to not dignify that with much of a response.
	Of course. Yeah, I do have a lot of these conversations, especially with family members and friends.
	I definitely always try to spread these principles to them and see if it at all resonates with them.
	If anything, the hardest conversation I ever have or debate with anybody regarding this topic is...
	One of my best friends, he actually introduced me to your show.
	And at one point, he was a hardcore libertarian.
	At this point, he's done a total 180, and now it's really hard to have these kinds of discussions with him.
	He still respects you and your show, but he would vote for...
	A Democrat today, like Bernie Sanders, I think at one time he said to me that he'd actually vote Bernie Sanders.
	He's really hard to have this kind of conversation with because he's listened to a lot of things you've said.
	He's listened to just, I don't know, just as much of your show as I have, realistically.
	And it's kind of insane having that kind of conversation with somebody who at one point was open to those ideals.
	At one point did believe in this moral belief system.
	Granted, he... I don't think he ever read any of your works, and I don't know how he would really feel if he considered something like...
	What's it called?
	Why am I forgetting? Universally preferable behavior.
	I don't know how he would feel if he read more into that, but...
	It's just, it's difficult having a conversation with someone who was at one point on the same side.
	Well, you know what, tell him to, yeah, so a couple of things could have happened.
	He might have had a job that compromises his moral beliefs.
	He might be involved with a woman who Prince Harry style is kind of wending him away from the righteous path, although cutting yourself off from a family that seems to involve pretty heavy levels of child abuse may not be the end of the world, but...
	Tell him to give me a shout if he wants.
	I would be happy to chat with him.
	And I'm always curious about people who sort of turn from the path and what's going on.
	So, all right.
	Well, let's do one or two more calls.
	I appreciate your call. That was a real pleasure.
	And it's really nice to deal with that kind of stuff again.
	So, all right. I'll tell you what.
	Let's mix it. Oh, let's do it.
	Okay. We'll talk to Jacob and then we'll see if we can get the guy back about the fetish.
	Because, you know, why not?
	Let's end the night on that note.
	Jacob, were you around? You wanted to talk more about libertarianism?
	Oh, yes. Yeah, I'm here.
	How you doing? Good, good.
	Yeah. Phil, what's in your mind?
	I wanted to ask what you think about agorism as a libertarian strategy.
	Oh, so this has been a while, right?
	So this is going back to the, oh, Free Talk Live day.
	So agorism is the idea that you sort of set up your own trading systems internally to the movement and work that way?
	I'm probably oversimplifying it, but is it something like that?
	It's like a counter economy, you know, grey market, black market stuff.
	Oh, yeah, I mean, I don't have any particular goal or desire to examine, explore, or advocate for illegal behavior.
	I think people should stay on the right side of the law.
	I don't agree with the law, of course, a lot of times, but I think people should stay on the right side of the law because, well, I mean, negative consequences and all of that.
	And you do kind of drop out of society if you...
	I'm sorry? I'm saying it's not necessarily about illegal behavior.
	There's also cryptocurrency, 3D printing, Uber at one point, you know, when it was, I guess, technically illegal.
	Well, I suggest people stay on the right side of the law.
	It's very tough to influence society if you're kind of living in the shadows and all of that.
	So my particular preference is for people to stay in society, stay in the fight.
	And that means, you know, pay them off and live like you're just not very economically efficient.
	You know, you've got to pay 40% of your money in taxes, 30% of your money in taxes.
	Just pretend your salary is lower and have a free life.
	So... That's my particular thought about that.
	But I know that there's lots of people who are interested in that kind of stuff, and they can certainly explore it on their own.
	So let's see if we wanted to get a hold of Edgar.
	I don't know if we will be able to, but let's give it a try and see if he's around.
	Oh, did we lose him?
	I think we did. We're trying the callback feature.
	All right. Well, it looks like...
	Okay, so Catherine, I think, has been waiting the longest.
	She's been here from the very beginning, and I'm sorry, there's almost 200 people who couldn't get through.
	But Catherine's been waiting from the beginning.
	I think it's Catherine. And so thank you for your patience.
	Are you with me, if it is in fact you?
	Hi. Thanks for your patience.
	I'm so sorry about all of that.
	You can be the last call tonight, and I'm happy to listen to what you have to say.
	This is really, really hard for me.
	Okay. I, um...
	I've been...
	I can do math.
	You can do what?
	I can do math.
	Um... Based on statistical analysis...
	I was protected from pictures, knowing about pictures, and what's worse than the pictures is people being told, like, let me get intellectual, which is easier than actually talking about...
	I believe in certain freedoms, like freedom of association, right?
	Like, I can't make you be my friend, okay?
	I can't make someone be my boyfriend, it's really important, okay?
	Because otherwise someone could make me be their friend.
	I could have a party and everybody could show up and be like, we've got to all come to your party.
	Like, it's really important. I believe in freedom of speech.
	I believe in Jordan Peterson, in the laws about compelling people to use pronouns.
	I don't think that I should be compelled to call Jessica and Eve a girl.
	And I don't think that...
	I mean, I would call Blair White a myth because she looks like a girl.
	She is hormonally a girl and she looks like a girl even though she's genetically male.
	Can I just ask you for a wee favor if I can just ask you to stay on target with the emotional content of your call?
	I have a feeling you're kind of circling the issue, if that makes sense.
	Well, yeah. I don't even think I need to tell you anything.
	I've been protected From knowing, I think there was like a fear years ago, like fear of a big lawsuit to do with the internet and people accused me.
	Well, to just summarize, you can't defame people.
	I would not be allowed to say that you're a pedophile.
	Like explicit defamation.
	I would not, if I went on the internet and said, I know for sure.
	Okay, let's not use me as an example, if you don't mind.
	Let's just say, yeah, you can't say X. Okay, got it, got it.
	Okay, so why is this issue...
	Hang on, hang on. Why is this issue so strong for you in your mind?
	I believe my life has been ruined by defamation.
	That's the main thing. Not the pictures as much as the defamation.
	Pictures of what? Pictures of me masturbating and pooping that someone took in...
	In the 90s, and I was never told about, and nobody would come up to me, and I think there was non-disclosure agreements signed, and I don't think they're binding, and I don't think people are free to do that.
	And it's like, if someone told a guy to stay away from me because I've got emotional problems, even if I was never going to date him in the first place, that's still going to affect my...
	My relationships. Like, if I was working with someone and someone said, don't ask Kate out.
	I've never been. If someone said, don't ask Kate out, right?
	Even if I was never going to date them, don't ask Kate out.
	She's got emotional problems.
	And don't tell her I said that.
	Our relationship will be ruined.
	Our working relationship. You're going to think she's got problems.
	I'll see it in your show.
	I don't know how much... I think it's pretty much...
	A lot about me!
	I think that it's...
	I think it might go back to high school and I didn't...
	Here's another thing.
	In the 90s, I didn't think about anything in high school.
	In the 90s, I suspected there was some chatting about me on the internet and the best thing to do is just ignore it and then my good reputation will eventually bubble for it.
	Because I had the suspicion that I had a bad reputation, which evidently I did.
	If people were saying she planned naked pictures for money, that's defamation.
	And I'm almost an anarchist when it comes to free speech.
	If someone wants to go on CNN and say, you know, like I'm trying to be a witness, and someone wants to say she's a fake Christian, if you want to have that opinion, I mean, that's an opinion, right?
	But if you say it publicly...
	Like, if someone said to a potential employer, you know, don't hire Kate, I think she's a thief.
	But then I asked the employer, has someone said anything to you about me?
	And he said, well, I heard you're a thief, and then I can defend myself.
	I don't even think I need to tell you anything.
	Okay, so hang on, hang on a sec, hang on a sec, hang on a sec.
	Okay, so listen. First of all, I really appreciate your passion about your reputation.
	I really do. And, you know, for those who haven't been attacked and defamed and all of that, good for you.
	Like, I'm glad you've gone through that in life.
	I mean, I understand your concern about your reputation.
	I really, really do.
	And listen, I mean, hang on, hang on.
	No, no, no. I gave you a chance to talk.
	Let me talk for a second here. Right?
	So I really understand that.
	And there's, you know, absolutely appalling stuff about me out there on the internet.
	So the question is, what do you do when people lie about you?
	Now, you're going back to the 90s, right?
	You're saying that there are pictures of you in compromised positions or something like that, right?
	And did people...
	Well, I'm still a virgin at 50.
	I mean, somebody...
	I don't even know.
	Just bear with me, okay?
	Take a deep breath, though.
	Take a deep breath, because if you try and get too much information across at once, it's going to be hard to follow what you're saying.
	Say someone broke in and stole my TV. That's wrong.
	If I was out of town, and my parents knew about it, and then they bought me a TV and told everyone...
	Don't tell Kate her TV was stolen.
	We'll buy her a new TV. She'll be traumatized by it.
	That's worse than faith.
	Like... I basically think that...
	As far as I can see, there's all these people in my world who are like, just get over it.
	It is like trying to get over...
	Being accused of being a pedophile.
	Okay, okay, so hang on, hang on, hang on.
	No, wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay, so you are very troubled by reputational damage from other people, right?
	That's what, as far as I can tell, or I'm totally crazy, which I don't think I am.
	Okay, let's go with scenario A, because I can't do much with scenario B, right?
	Let's just go with scenario A, all right?
	The question is, how do you deal with people who lie about you?
	And there really are two options that you can take.
	The first is you can take them to court, right?
	That's one possibility.
	Now, that's complicated.
	That's lengthy. Oh, you've tried it?
	I can't get a lawyer.
	I think there's... I think there was some kind of law passed to put me under a press ban, which wouldn't be constitutional.
	Okay, okay, so hang on, hang on.
	There's certain things the majority can't do.
	Like, if the majority...
	If everybody in Canada signed a petition to take all your money, that wouldn't...
	And then they passed a bill.
	That wouldn't go through the Senate or whatever, because it wouldn't be...
	Like, if stealing is wrong against the law, then you can't sign a...
	A law. I know you might think taxation is stealing, but let's not get into that, okay?
	Alright, so hang on, hang on.
	If you're going to call into the show, I assume it's not because you wanted to elbow me aside and take it over.
	Maybe it was, but I'm going to elbow you aside and take it over again, right?
	So you can either take people to court, and that is a multi-year process that can take hundreds of thousands of dollars.
	And unfortunately, of course, the Streisand effect is such that if you take someone to court for lying about you, harming your reputation and so on, that you're actually spreading their lies for many years before you end up with some possible restitution.
	It's not the end of the world.
	It may be a good thing to do.
	It may be a fine thing to do, but...
	Those are the variables as far as I understand them.
	So you have to make this decision, right?
	So either you're going to take people to court and go through that process and, you know, two, three hundred thousand bucks, fingers crossed, five years maybe, whatever it's going to be, right?
	Because it's the government. Justice is just another government program, right?
	At least the way that the system is right now.
	So if you're not going to do that, either because you can't or you choose not to, then what you have to do Is you have to say, people are going to lie about me.
	And what you need to do is trust that the good people will see through the lies and will judge the liars and not you.
	Now, bad people will believe the lies and believe the liars and stay away from you.
	Yay! It's not a pleasant process, but it's a relatively decent outcome if bad people believe negative things about you and stay away, as opposed to good people who know that reputational damage Is a great weapon of evildoers, right? And say, you know, this is, I mean, if you're a Christian or you raised a Christian as I was, you know that reputational damage is the foundation of the entire religion in many ways, right?
	And so far as how much they lied about Christ and got him up on the cross and all that kind of stuff, right?
	So, that's the challenge, but to hang in the middle there and say, well, I'm neither going to pursue action against people, and neither am I going to find a way to let it go, because right now, the people who are lying about you are kind of running your mind, right? They're kind of running your life.
	I can feel the... No, and I also...
	Like, I believe that...
	Okay, I'm gonna...
	Okay, I don't know what you think of Jehovah's Witnesses.
	I'm not a very good witness these days, but...
	But I have been a practicing witness in the past.
	They just fellowship. I don't know what you think of that, but we have freedom of association.
	Groups have the right to discipline.
	If I join a group of pot smokers or non-pot smokers, it's a really important concept.
	You can have a whole group of people who, for instance, there's lots of people, there's lots of groups that wouldn't want to have a porn star as their friend.
	So anyway, I stand by that.
	Jehovah's Witnesses would not be allowed to say, well, we caught Kate fornicating.
	We're going to all steal from her.
	We're going to what from her?
	Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't be allowed to say, we caught Kate.
	Jehovah's Witnesses are allowed to disfellowship.
	And that was legally defended in a court case in Canada recently.
	So basically it's ostracism.
	So disfellowship is ostracism wherein the community...
	Shuns you. Shuns you and won't return phone calls and won't have anything to do with you and won't recognize you, so to speak, in the street.
	And it's an extreme form of ostracism that is part of the religious mindset.
	Is that right? Yeah.
	Well, hopefully, I mean, I do think they...
	I think sometimes they'll return phone calls because if you...
	You know, it could be a relative that's phoning you up and...
	Just tell you another relative is dead or something.
	But it's basically, we don't...
	I'm not going to get into all the details.
	You can look it up. But...
	Like society as a whole, we put people in jail if they murder, right?
	And a group can also discipline an individual.
	Like if they say there's a group that doesn't believe in smoking pot, they can discipline that person.
	And one of the ways they can discipline is by not being friends with them.
	We used to put people in jail for pot, and now are we going to go as far as to say, well, we have to be friends with them?
	Is it going to go as far as put someone in jail for smoking pot?
	Hang on, hang on.
	I don't want to have abstract discussions about something you're really passionate about, because we have to talk about the level of passion that you have, because you sound kind of wounded and kind of injured and angry and scared and upset.
	So let's talk about that, because the abstract discussions aren't going to solve whatever is driving your emotions.
	Okay. I believe, just like Jehovah's Witnesses, they actually announce someone has been disfellowshipped.
	Right. They have a hearing, and then they actually announce...
	Well, I could talk about that for a long time, but I'll just make it simple.
	They announce from the platform, this person has been disfellowshipped, don't associate with them or whatever.
	I forget the exact announcement.
	But it's actual instructions.
	We're going to discipline this person.
	I believe people have been instructed...
	To lie to me. To discipline me.
	And then there's people who are defending this, thinking that it's the same as disfellowshipping, and I think it's very different.
	It's punishing me without a defense.
	So why, hang on, so why do you want, hang on, why do you want the good opinion of people who are punishing you without defense, who are lying about you, I think, as you said.
	Well, everybody is, though. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	Not everyone. The people in your life, you are surrendering control to the people in your life who, according to your standards and what you're saying, are not doing the right thing.
	Listen, people are free to be completely...
	Neither is my family, and they're not witnesses either.
	I'm sorry? My sister Suzanne, she's not a witness, and she's the same.
	I have no one.
	I have no friends. Well, that's because you're hanging around waiting for bad people to do the right thing.
	What if this ship has sunk of your existing society and you've got to find someplace new, you've got to find better people, you've got to let go of people who...
	I mean, you don't sound like you're a teenager, right?
	So this has been going on for some time.
	You were talking about stuff and photos from the 90s.
	So we're talking, what, 20 years?
	25 years? 30 years?
	Can I summarize it? Yeah.
	I think skinny dipping in high school, and it was blocked because it was thought of as child porn.
	I just call it the news.
	To me, I'm not saying it's right, but I would call it no different than when National Geographic goes to Africa and takes pictures of kids.
	And then, instruction was given.
	Don't tell her about the pictures.
	You know, she might be a little scheming little teenager trying to scheme to sue for a bunch of money.
	Again, which is defamation.
	Listen, listen, listen, listen.
	No, I get it. I get it. And I don't want to get into the abstracts again.
	But you understand that from the outside, if you are still tortured by photos from 30 years ago or 25 years ago and so on.
	I'm tortured by, no, no, not the pictures, the defamation.
	I mean, how could you have a relationship with someone who lies to you?
	You can't. It's not just the witnesses, my family, the police, and my psychiatrist.
	I said to my psychiatrist, I said, people are lying to me.
	And he says, you know, I understand the idea that you can't control.
	He said, you can't control what other people do.
	All you can control is what you do.
	But if he's instructed people, if Microsoft has paid people off That's not just simply...
	You know, it's like there's a difference between a guy...
	If I ask a guy out on a date, and I ask a guy out on a date, and someone says, don't go out with her, just ghost her, she's got problems, and don't tell her I said that.
	Do you see the difference? Like, I'm really big on...
	And I shouldn't... I'm not even saying I should force people to tell me if they've seen the pictures, but there's a difference between that...
	Like, Jordan Peterson talks about compelled speech, and I agree.
	Like, I actually don't think...
	That people should necessarily mind a criminal activity.
	That's different. But, like, I don't think that people should be compelled...
	Like, you know, if someone took a picture of your family on the beach, okay?
	You and your wife skinny dipping, okay?
	And then you asked me, have you seen the pictures of me skinny dipping that got on the internet?
	I shouldn't be compelled to tell you if I saw them.
	But I generally would.
	I'd say, yeah, I saw them, you know...
	I mean...
	I mean, this is what gets me about all these people on the left who are like they want to compel people to do stuff.
	And I'm like, there's no laws requiring people get married.
	People get married all the time.
	Okay, hang on, we're back to...
	There's no laws requiring... Hang on, sorry, sorry.
	What was that about Microsoft? I think Microsoft is...
	Well, and I sent a fax to Microsoft in 2010 to sort of maybe...
	So they could get an idea with who I'm dealing with, because...
	I sent a fax to them saying they can gather all the information.
	I think I've been in some kind of cartoon reality show for like since maybe 2012 or 13 or something and now it's just I think I'm a license to print money.
	But I'm tired.
	I'm not going to...
	Like I agree with you.
	You know, I mean it wasn't my plan to wait If I ever meet someone, it wasn't my plan to wait till 50 to get married.
	I agree with your advice to women.
	You know, I was planning on marrying maybe in my 30s.
	Maybe that was too late, but...
	I am incredibly...
	Hang on, hang on, hang on. I am very, very sorry for the suffering that you are going through.
	It's very real.
	Kate, hang on, no, no, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I haven't even hated all of this because I've been phoning radio stations and I've assumed that I've had this job and I've enjoyed it because I've assumed that I've been doing important stuff and maybe that's all a delusion.
	And I haven't totally hated it, but I've got no friends.
	I am so sorry.
	Listen, I am so sorry for the suffering that you are going through.
	It is heartbreaking.
	I mean, I can hear the thoughts roaming around in your head, right?
	Like a shark circling people.
	I mean, it is a very, very painful, upsetting place to be.
	And I am so sorry that the photos are out there.
	I'm so sorry that people are lying about you.
	I'm so sorry that people haven't found a way to help you.
	I'm so sorry for the isolation, for the loneliness.
	I actually... I'm not saying the folders are right, but I'm like a lot of guys.
	Like, trust me, in lots of ways, I'm really like a girl.
	But I'm like a lot of guys.
	Like, a lot of guys just wouldn't care.
	Like, they just wouldn't care.
	I'm... You know...
	I mean, you know how employers just run from...
	If an employer gets a sense that you're...
	Okay, no, no, no, no.
	No, listen, listen. They do not want to hire you.
	Kate, Kate, hang on, hang on. I really want you to get that you're receiving deep human sympathy here and not go off into abstract land here.
	Okay? I am so sorry for the suffering that you're going through.
	I really, really am. It is very sad.
	It's very heartbreaking. My heart goes out to you.
	It is a very difficult place to be, to have a community and a family who's rejecting you, to have these photos out there, to be concerned about employment, to be concerned about datability.
	I mean, this is very, very sad and scary stuff, and I just...
	Outside of all the abstractions and the Jordan Petersons and the Microsofts and the faxes from 2020, I just want you to know how sorry I am that you're suffering to this degree.
	It is very tragic, and I am really, really sympathetic.
	Thank you.
	I'm sorry for not saying thank you.
	Thank you. I'm not looking for thanks, although it's greatly appreciated.
	I know what it's like to be lied about.
	I know what it's like to have people turn their backs on you.
	I know what it's like to be rejected by family members.
	I know all of that.
	And I'm there with you that it is a very, very difficult passage.
	But I mean, it's like I... Most people even who aren't popular, like, you're not popular.
	Like, there's a lot of people who don't like you, but you obviously have people who...
	And I certainly don't agree with you on everything.
	Well, you called in, so I guess I'm popular enough to you unless you're just randomly dialing and hoping to get someone who has a show, which I don't think you are.
	No, I... Like, I... See, I... See, even if I wasn't a witness, and even if I disagreed with disfellowshipping in the sense that...
	Okay, just to be a little abstract, okay?
	You can think someone...
	You shouldn't do something, but then you'll also defend the right to do it.
	Yeah, of course. Yeah, I get that.
	Many people will say, someone will call someone a name on the news or something, and they're like, I don't think they should have called them that name, that childish name.
	Like, you could say, Donald Trump calling people names is childish.
	I don't think you should do that.
	But you'll legally defend his right to do that.
	If he wants to call me retarded Kate or whatever, I mean...
	I'll legally defend that.
	I think I'm in a war.
	I mean, I really do think I'm in like a big war over people trying to take away certain freedoms, people looking at me and saying, look, Okay, Kate, Kate, hang on, hang on a sec here.
	Kate, hang on, Kate, hang on a sec here.
	Do you think that you're in any state to be in battle right now?
	What if you put down your...
	Hang on, what if you put down your arms?
	Relax a little bit. And this is a stupid thing to say.
	Oh, just relax. I get that that's an annoying thing to hear and I apologize even for saying it.
	But in the spirit of, listen, you have to know when you can fight and when you need to rest.
	No soldier stares across the trenches I've only been fighting for 15 years.
	Okay, that's a long time to be fighting, man.
	That is a long—people get PTSD from being in war for six months, for God's sakes, right?
	So that is a long time to be fighting.
	What if, what if the purpose now is not for you to abandon the battlefield completely— But take some R&R. Take a break from the fight.
	Take a break from the stress.
	You know, we're not drafted into this.
	Maybe take a break from Twitter.
	Absolutely. We're not drafted into this.
	You don't have to do it.
	And there's tons of people who will do it if you don't.
	There's tons of people who do it if I don't.
	We cannot be a slave to the battle for the good.
	Because that's not freedom. Well, I'm compelled to fight for freedom.
	I'm compelled to fight against evildoers.
	I'm compelled to fight against totalitarianism.
	I'm compelled to fight against bad people.
	It's like, well, then you're just a slave.
	You're a slave to the battle.
	That's not freedom. But, like, if I wasn't a witness, if I was Bill Maher, I would say this.
	Like, I can look at things from, like, society's There's a lot of people in society who want to force inclusion.
	I don't like men.
	I like the fact that you're talking to me.
	I don't like men who won't be friends with women.
	But I will wholly defend men having their groups.
	If a man wants to have a health club, they should be allowed to.
	It really makes me angry.
	Okay, we're still back to abstractions again, and I think we're losing the connection that we had.
	So when I, hang on, when I say to you that maybe it's okay for you not to fight for a while.
	No, can I just say, okay, it is really, really stupid for a group of people to shun an individual and then say, see, we've all shunned that individual.
	I'm not saying like Jehovah's Witnesses do.
	It's really stupid for a group of people to all shun someone and then say, that's proof that That we need a law.
	Because, you know, it would be like if there were a whole bunch of people who were...
	Like, you're worried about people not getting married right now.
	You're worried about people... I wouldn't say that I'm worried.
	No, I wouldn't say that I'm worried.
	That's a bit of a female interpretation.
	I want people to be happy and I think that people are going to miss fertility windows and then have a half century to sit there and stare at an empty mantelpiece with no baby pictures on it and that's a pretty tough place to live.
	But you don't have to fight this fight.
	You can take a break.
	Every honorable person who...
	Like, you're turning people off this fight by being this burnt out and frustrated and worn out by this fight.
	You're saying to people basically...
	It's like some guy who works out to the point where he...
	Can barely move because his muscles are so sore and his tendons are so sore and he's got all this soft tissue damage and so on.
	And then he says, hey, you should work out like me.
	And people are like, oh my God, if that's what working out is, I don't want to have anything to do with it.
	Part of being in the fight is enjoying the fight.
	And when you don't enjoy the fight, you've got to stop.
	Because not only is it burning you out.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Not only is it burning you out.
	But it's also turning people off who might also enjoy the fight because you look like, oh my God, if you're going to have this fight for free speech or this fight for freedom of association, if you're going to end up this stressed out, no thanks, right?
	And we need people on our side.
	And if you're kind of a walking wounded person who's been fighting this fight for so long, That it's frazzled you and you haven't taken a break and you haven't said, okay, I've got to have some me time.
	I've got to hit the spa. I've got to go on a walk.
	I've got to eat well.
	I've got to exercise.
	I've got to let this go.
	It's the Atlas Shrugged thing, right?
	So if you're stuck on this soren-eyed staring at the bad guys and it's all about you and no one else can do anything and no one else can help and so on, you are going to...
	Burn out, right? And I'm no expert.
	I'm no psychologist. I'm no psychiatrist.
	I'm just some guy on the internet.
	But Kate, it sure sounds to me like you're a little burned out.
	And I think that you're looking for someone to obviously sympathize, but also someone to say, the truth is not a sword to be drawn at all costs.
	The fight should not consume you and destroy you.
	I'm not saying you were destroyed, but you know, it shouldn't consume you.
	It shouldn't weaken you.
	I'm You're doing worse?
	I've never ever drank immoderately in my life until the last year.
	Okay, so that's a sign that you can take a break.
	That you can focus on what's good for you.
	You can let the world work to fix itself.
	It's not up to you and it's not up to me to save the world.
	It is a collective and communal effort.
	And I'll tell you something that's interesting about...
	This is something I've been sort of mulling over lately, right?
	Because I can be a little bit of a workaholic, which is why I'm in this conversation and why I think it's important that we talk about this.
	Look, something that's interesting...
	If you're on a tandem bike, if you pedal more, do you know what often happens?
	What does the other person do?
	Do they pedal more or less?
	They pedal less.
	Yeah, they pedal less, right? So if you're out there with the burden of the world on your shoulders and working to fight to save the West and to fight freedom of association and freedom of speech and so on, and you take on all those burdens to the point where your knees are buckling and your back is bowing, you know what other people do?
	They just do less.
	And so you end up burning yourself out.
	You don't end up advancing the course.
	You kind of become an advertisement for people to stay away from the course.
	And other people are like, oh, Kate's got it handled.
	Man, she's really wired into this stuff.
	She's working night and day.
	She's working 24-7.
	She's burning her fingers to the bone, getting all this stuff sorted out.
	So I can just watch some Netflix and be shocked at everything that comes out of Gwyneth Paltrow's mouth and other places, right?
	So what if the purpose of what you've done has been great to awaken people, to talk about these important issues?
	But what if the entire purpose now is you to take a freaking vacation from this millstone, this grind wheel?
	and say, the world will step up to save itself if I'm not giving it CPR. It'll just get up and start walking around.
	Because if it's all up to you, you can't ever take a break.
	It's infinitely exhausting.
	And... Well, it's not just that I'm lonely.
	I mean, do you realize I have been alone?
	I don't hang around with my family anymore.
	Like, not witnesses.
	Like, I shun everyone, basically.
	Right.
	But until you're arrested, I don't know if you're going to be great company for people.
	Well, I don't want to.
	No one's good company for me as far as I can tell.
	I get that. I get that.
	And that's why I would say working on your health, cut down on your drinking, get good exercise, stay off social media if that's causing you stress, to de-stress is really, really important.
	Because if you come to a new relationship, so let's take this conversation, for example, right?
	So you and I are having a little bit of a relationship here, right?
	And from my standpoint, you come in with a lot of intensity and a lot of chaos, right?
	And that's difficult for people to handle, to manage, right?
	I have some experience with this, so that's not the end of the world for me.
	But a lot of people are going to say, wow, that's really intense, and she's really worked out about stuff, but I don't really know her that well, so it's probably a bit...
	It may be a bit off-putting for people, right?
	So then the question is, how can you be...
	The way you were originally, which is warm and friendly and happy and positive and nice to be around and inviting for people to spend time with and so on.
	Well, I think it has a lot to do with self-care and it has a lot to do with learning to enjoy your own company because right now you do seem quite tortured by things that happened to some degree a long time ago, stuff that's happening right now.
	But if people are acting badly in your life, you will gain great relief out of judging them as bad people doing bad things, getting yourself into a more secure and more calm and more relaxing place, learning more to enjoy your own company, learning how to relax, and learning that you still have a long time on this planet.
	You can have great relationships.
	You can have positive friendships.
	You can deal with this loneliness.
	But if you're still circling the drain of other people's really bad decisions and you're burning yourself out with a fight that you say has been going on for 15 years, you're not going to be good for people to be in relationships with as a whole.
	And I'm concerned that that isolation, that sense of embattling is going to carve this big giant moat around you that other people aren't going to be able to cross.
	And then it's going to become like, I'm so tense from being lonely, I'm so tense from fighting, that then the loneliness in the fight becomes more chronic, if that makes sense.
	I mean, you could say 15 years, it's already pretty bloody chronic, right?
	But if you can find a way to give yourself space to heal, to recognize that if people are rejecting you, then you are perfectly free to judge them as missing out.
	Right? On missing out on what you can bring to the table.
	But until you can find a way to be at peace with the fact that other people have made bad decisions, to be at peace with the fact that maybe you've made bad decisions, to recognize that the past does not define who you're going to be.
	It does not define...
	The photos from the 90s don't define who you're going to be in the future.
	The good news is it's 30 years on.
	Neither you nor I look like we did in high school.
	So, you know, the odds are that there's find some way to escape it.
	Maybe you need to move. Maybe you need to join new groups.
	It's not the pictures.
	It's... It's...
	It's...
	It's...
	You know, it's...
	Like, there's a difference between someone who just, like, I'm sure there's lots of married men who have looked at, okay, you shouldn't lie to your wife, but I'm guessing there's lots of men with their wives, maybe they meet Stormy Daniels, and Stormy Daniels says, have you seen my work? And the guy lies, you know?
	No, I don't look at that stuff.
	The difference between that and telling, like, my...
	I make a huge argument that direction can be slander.
	Like if I said, if Stefan's coming over to your house, lock up your liquor cabinet, what would people think?
	You're going to pour it in the bathtub?
	Or that I've been kicked off the internet and I had to do my shows house to house or something, right?
	Okay, but listen, so you're back into trying to talk to me about the lies that people have told.
	Freedom means the freedom for...
	No, freedom... Hang on, hang on.
	I'll tell you what I'm doing, too, okay?
	I know you told me to take a break, but I'll be honest, because that wasn't even sort of my plan.
	I wasn't even sure what my plan is when I phoned in, because I really didn't have a plan.
	It was just to do something different.
	But I'll admit, I'm using your show, hopefully, to make my points.
	Like, do you see the difference...
	Like, if someone was to say, if I was to say, don't let someone be alone with Stefan, don't let your kids be alone with Stefan, what would you think?
	Yeah, if you could please stop, as I said earlier, please start using other people as the examples, because I don't, you know...
	I don't believe, okay, I do not believe...
	Let's just say Bob. You seem like a wonderful father.
	You seem like a wonderful father, okay?
	You seem awesome, great father.
	You spend time with your daughter.
	It's awesome. But, I mean, that's...
	You know, to accuse someone of planning naked pictures so they can make easy money, that's pretty serious defamation.
	Okay, and listen, hang on, hang on, I get all of that.
	And listen, I've been lied about too.
	You understand? And you could argue more seriously than that.
	So the question is, what do you do with that?
	Now, I think that you're crying to the heavens for justice to rain down upon the wrongdoers, which is not going to happen.
	It's not going to happen, Kate.
	I mean, again, if you've looked into legal action and you're not going to take legal action, there is no physics of morality in the universe.
	At least I know you're Jehovah, so maybe there's different beliefs that you have.
	But empirically speaking, Evildoers prosper, and good men and good women die like dogs sometimes.
	That is the nature of the world that we live in.
	There is no physics that draws inevitable rewards to good people and punishes the evildoers and the liars and the defamers and all of that.
	That world, whether it's the natural world that is, where morality is not part of our physics, or it's the world that God designed, which is designed to test the faith of good people, whatever the reality is, the truth is.
	That there is going to be no justice that occurs independent of your choices.
	Now, once you recognize that, that should not give you despair, although it may for a while.
	But what you can say is, given that if I'm waiting For a bus that's not coming, I get more and more stressed and more and more hysterical and more and more frustrated and more and more angry because, damn it, that bus should be here.
	And now that I've waited for three hours for the bus, it feels like hell to walk because you've already invested all that time, right?
	So if you have exhausted legal options or you're not going to choose to take legal options, you must walk away from dwelling on the lies.
	You must, because otherwise the liars have complete control over your mind process.
	The universe is not going to solve the problem for you.
	The people who are lying about you aren't going to suddenly grow a conscience and realize the error of their ways and change.
	And the universe isn't going to punish them.
	So there's no bus that's coming.
	And you sitting here waiting, and I understand why, because there's such an outrageous wrong has been done unto you that you want things to be set right.
	As far as I can see, it's like being in a Truman show.
	It's like, as far as I can see, it's like, it's like I'm in a Truman show, and then people are like, get over it.
	No, no, no, but here, here's the thing.
	Hang on. I get all of that.
	You can't go back in the Truman show.
	I get it, but you know what?
	You can't go back. But you know what there is in the Truman Show?
	Hang on, hang on.
	I get that. Do you know what's on the side of the wall that surrounds the Truman Show?
	What does he do at the end?
	More lies, but not as many.
	He has a door.
	There's still going to be lies.
	He has a door and he walks out, right?
	There's no door.
	There is a door. There is a door and you called to know what the door is.
	Maybe you're the door?
	No, I'm not the door. I'm just some guy of the internet.
	The door is you saying, people are going to lie about me.
	Fuck them. If they're trashy...
	Hang on. Not everybody.
	No, no, no, no, no. I will not let you universalize this to everyone because then there's no door.
	I'm not lying to you, am I? I'm neither lying to you nor lying about you.
	So there's one person.
	And where there's one, there can be more.
	There can be people who will not lie about you.
	But if you're sitting there waiting for the people who are lying about you to change or get better or...
	The bus ain't coming.
	And you're stuck.
	And I... I understand, like...
	You know, I'm in a town, and I'm guessing it's, I'm guessing I'm a license to print money, and nobody wants to step out of line and, you know, destroy the, what's the, you know, the goose that lays the golden egg or the poopy egg or whatever.
	I mean, I've tried, you know, I know people can also do evil with good intentions.
	They still mutilate little girls in Africa.
	It still goes on.
	It's horrific. And they do that, and they think they love them.
	Right. I mean, a hundred years ago, or fifty years ago, it was pretty much universal.
	It still happens a lot today.
	Now, we've lost Kate in the abstractions again.
	We're in Africa rather than with you.
	Okay, my concern right now is not the little girls in Africa.
	My concern is you. That you find a way, even if it's a glimpse, out of where you are.
	Okay? That's my concern.
	You cannot let your life be run by liars and And slanderers and evildoers.
	I mean, you can, but why?
	Judge them. Recognize that there are other people in the world because your trust limbs have almost been like amputated here, right?
	And you won't be able to trust the people who lie about you.
	You won't be able to change them.
	You won't be able to reason with them.
	All you can do is get away.
	And when you get away, this constant stimulation of, but they're lying, but they're lying, but they're lying!
	You know, I could spend all my day.
	But can I even move?
	Well, of course you can move!
	Of course you can move!
	No, I think...
	I assume you're not calling me from jail, right?
	You can move, right? Whether it's fun or not, I don't know, but you can, right?
	Like, I think my...
	I think my...
	I think Jack, I think my Twitter screen, like that's got to be against the law.
	I mean, I know I didn't pay for it, but you pay for Twitter.
	Look, if social media, you are not obligated to be on social media.
	You don't have to do it.
	Listen, let me ask you this.
	Let me ask you, what advice would you give me, Kate?
	Let's say that you were running this show, right?
	And I called in and I said, you know what?
	I have just been spending the last...
	Month. Reading every false, mean, terrible thing that's written about me on the internet.
	And I'm not sure I'd even get through it in a month.
	But let's say that I called you up.
	And I said, it's driving me insane.
	It's driving me crazy.
	I can't process this.
	It's so stressful. I can't sleep.
	There's so many people out there who are saying so many false and malicious things about me.
	And it's...
	What would you tell me to do?
	I would tell you you're better off than me because I would rather be...
	I would rather be bullied than lied to.
	And this is, again, what I'm up against.
	Wait, you would make it about you?
	What would you say to make me feel better, though?
	If I was coming to you for advice, what would you say about me?
	Okay, if you said that, which is true, I would say, I'm sorry, but it's just...
	Being bullied is better than being lied to.
	Knowing what people...
	Knowing what people think about you is better than having them talk behind your back.
	Okay, but if I said it was really stressing me out and I wasn't sleeping and so on, what would your advice to me be to deal with all of the lies that are out there about me?
	Take a break. Right.
	And what else would you say to me?
	Well, you don't have to look at it.
	Right. What else would you say?
	But I mean, I wish there was some stuff I could look at.
	All I've got is songs.
	I've fallen for some of them, which is really, really stupid.
	Songs? Well...
	See, you can't...
	You can pretend to love someone.
	You can't pretend to give someone attention.
	Okay, now we're abstracting again.
	We're abstracting again. So you would tell me to stop reading the lies about me.
	You would tell me to take a break, right?
	Would you tell me to engage with the people and try to get them to change their perspective of me?
	I... No, no, forget it.
	Hang on, hang on. Focus on me.
	Focus on me, right? You say you're lonely, so you've got to focus on me for a sec, right?
	Okay, because that's how you're going to build relationships.
	Would you tell me to get in contact with the people who were lying about me and just work really, really hard to set them straight?
	Probably not. Right.
	And why would you not suggest I do that or suggest I don't do that?
	Because they're...
	They won't ever admit they're wrong.
	Correct. Why else?
	I think there's money on the line.
	What if they enjoyed the torture and I went and I said, oh man, it's really bothering me.
	It's driving me crazy. Wouldn't they like that?
	Wouldn't I be giving them exactly what they wanted?
	Well, I know. I should go on strike.
	I think that's what it would be.
	What do you mean? Well, I... Like, I think...
	Like, I've been phoning... Radio stations and stuff, and it seems like I'm talking to the walls, but I don't think I have been.
	I think I've been getting paid.
	I think there might be billions.
	And honestly, I really don't care.
	Enough money for a roof over my head, and I know you've talked about cosmetic surgery and how shallow that is, but I'm older, and I wouldn't mind putting the bloom back on the rose a bit.
	But other than that, I'm just not materialistic.
	I just, like... I mean, I know.
	Money makes people evil.
	I mean, as far as I can tell, Justin Trudeau...
	All right. Kate, Kate.
	Hang on, Kate. Kate, this last shot here.
	Do you really want to talk about Justin Trudeau when you're this unhappy?
	Is this really how you want to spend our time?
	No. No, it's not, right?
	So you keep wanting to talk about other things, right?
	But when you're this upset and you keep talking about abstract topic, it's kind of alienating for people.
	Do you know what I mean? Because you're really upset about things in your life that are very personal.
	And, you know, Justin Trudeau, yeah, that's a big topic.
	But it's not a topic that's fundamentally driving your unhappiness, right?
	Yeah. Well, no, I basically think, you know, when the guy was trying to get out of the Truman Show, and they were all trying to keep him back in the Truman Show, I basically think that's what I'm fighting.
	And I'm saying stop fighting.
	Now, listen, listen, Kate, here's the thing.
	So, because your emotions are very strong at the moment, it's not likely that much of what I'm going to say is going to get through to you, right?
	And again, I'm no professional, I'm just telling you what I think, right?
	Yeah, I'll listen real hard. No, no, that's fine, that's fine, listen.
	No, the good thing is, just record it, right?
	So you can go back and listen to it again.
	Now, you said that you have a psychiatrist, is that correct?
	Yeah. Okay, okay.
	And how often, well, sorry, you don't have to tell me how often you see him, but are you, you know, in contact with him, like you can be in contact with him?
	No, I don't see him regularly.
	I think he's as bad as the doctors in Nazi Germany who conducted experiments on people.
	Well, that's not a great relationship.
	Okay, so here's what I would like from you, because I've given you a fair amount of time, and I haven't really asked for anything, but this is what I would like.
	So first of all, I'd like you to listen back to this, because I think there's some useful stuff in here for you.
	And secondly, I would really like it if you could do this for me.
	Would you mind telling me...
	That if you have any thoughts of self-harm or any thoughts of harming others, that you will call professionals, you will call a hotline, you will get the help that you need.
	Because I understand that you're in a very, very difficult position right now.
	now and again.
	I'm just a podcaster, so I don't have any skill or authority in this area.
	But please, please, I would really like if you could, you know, you can consider this return for the time that we spent together, although I found it very, very interesting.
	But would you do me a favor, please?
	And just reassure me that if you have any thoughts of self-harm or of harming others, that you will get on the phone with somebody who can really help you.
	Can I make, I know you get upset with me, but let me make a really important point.
	No, no, no.
	See, we both have needs here, right?
	So you want to make a really important point, but I've just expressed a very clear need of mine, right?
	What was it? No, and I understand.
	No, but I'm going to make a point about suicide.
	Okay. If I was to threaten suicide to get what I want, now, obviously, people shouldn't, I mean, people shouldn't give in to that.
	I mean, mind you, if I was to say...
	If you don't give me the money you owe me, I'm going to kill myself.
	You've still got to pay me the money.
	But I think these doctors think they're right in that they think there's this great principle of Kate has to learn she can't get what she wants.
	And they actually think they're really principled.
	Like, Kate has to learn that she can't get what she wants.
	She can't compel people to tell her this stuff.
	And they've been, like, I was drugged again last year.
	Okay, Kate, Kate, hang on.
	A year and a half ago. Kate, what was the need that I expressed to you?
	You want me to, if I ever feel like I'm going to hurt myself, make sure I contact the hospital or the police, 911.
	Or a hotline of some kind or a mental health hotline or whatever, right?
	So, and again, would you mind making that commitment?
	For me, I would really appreciate it.
	I promise that I'll do that.
	I promise. Okay, thank you.
	I promise I'll do that. Thank you very much.
	Because listen, I get that it's a very, very tough place for you right now.
	I don't honestly know if I've done too, too, too much to help you.
	I mean, I hope I've given you a little bit of stuff to think about.
	Oh, you have, you have. You have, you have.
	Oh, good. I was, like, really anxious.
	Like, I actually was really anxious, like, yesterday and today, and I hate to admit how much I drank, but I haven't drank because I finished it off earlier today.
	It's ridiculous. Like, I finished it off way before I called.
	Yeah, that's not good, right?
	You know that. But do you feel a little better now than when you feel?
	You sound better to me. It's hard to tell from that.
	Okay, good. Good.
	So you do feel a little better because you sound a little better.
	And I appreciate that.
	And usually when I phone in radio stations and stuff, I'm not always emotional.
	I'm very sort of analytical.
	I mean, I'm actually a really, really hyper.
	No, I get that. I really, listen, you don't have to tell me that.
	I've just been talking to you for 45 minutes.
	I know. And listen, as an analytical guy, I appreciate that.
	I think that's a wonderful... Ability and skill and power that you have, it's just you've got to be able to shift gears in life, right?
	Like in a bike, you're going up a hill, you've got to have different gears than when you're going down a hill.
	And when you're dealing with the really emotional stuff, the merely intellectual stuff, it doesn't cover it.
	And I think that the difference is that...
	You knew, either instinctively or consciously, you knew that I could listen to your heart more than your head, if that makes any sense.
	Because, you know, we have a head and we have a heart and both are very, very important.
	Well, yeah, there's actually no Sparks in the world.
	There are no Sparks in the world.
	And, you know, it's funny because even Leonard Nimoy, when he was playing Spock, had a huge problem with alcoholism.
	And after he played a guy with no emotions all day, he spent half the night sobbing into his pillow.
	I mean, even Spock, the actor, couldn't be Spock, the character, for very long without a real problem.
	So, do you feel a little better?
	Do you feel like we had a bit of a connection here?
	I feel better, yeah.
	I'm... Well, I'll be honest, too.
	I'm hoping that, you know, I'm hoping that, well, my YouTube says 855 people are watching, but I suspect more people than that are.
	Well, who knows? But the important thing is that we had a nice, long, meaty chat.
	I think that we got good wisdom out of it for you and for others.
	I appreciate the call, and I know it was a little alarming when you first started talking for people, but...
	I think that we just need to be heard sometimes, and we just need to be sympathized with, and I really do feel for what you're going through.
	It's a tough place to be.
	We've all been at low points.
	We've all been at isolated points, those of us who think for ourselves.
	There's that whole Nietzsche line about if you think for yourself, you'll often be frightened and feel alone and feel alarmed, but no price is too high.
	For self-ownership. But, you know, there are some times where the price feels too damn high.
	There are times where you feel like, why the hell did I ever take that stupid red pill?
	What a terrible mistake it is.
	And those times we do need to be heard.
	And we do need to have some sympathy.
	And we do need to have people remind us that we don't have to fight from here to the grave.
	That is a terrible way to live in the long run.
	It's great to have a fight, but the boxer doesn't stay in the ring for 12 hours where he just gets injured.
	So... Alright, well listen, I'm going to appreciate your call, and thank you so much.
	I promise, if I want to hurt myself, I'll phone the mental health thing.
	Okay, good. And I agree that, like, people, if there was truth that I really wasn't legally entitled to, And then they were making me...
	And I was upset about people not telling me things that I'm not entitled to.
	Like, I don't know what that could be.
	I mean, there's people who sort of think they're entitled to know things that they're not entitled to.
	And it was making me upset, and I was going to my doctor, and my doctor said to me, you know, we can't...
	We aren't going to give in to your emotional blackmail.
	You know, if you threaten suicide...
	Unless you know the truth about, you know, whatever it could be.
	I don't know. Now, you see, you're trying to get all abstract on me again, but it's not working, right?
	Because that's not where we were.
	No, I'm just saying that I understand that I think that's what the...
	No, and I'm entitled to not...
	Okay, no, no, Kate, Kate, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Okay, I'm not going to go back down this road with you, okay?
	We had a good resolution to the conversation, and if you're going to fall into that pit again, you know, that's not the way to go, right?
	Good. Yeah, that's the thing.
	You can take a month off social media.
	You can pick up good old-fashioned magazines.
	You can watch nature documentaries.
	You can just cool your jets.
	You can calm down, you know?
	I mean, that's really important.
	We should not be a slave to freedom.
	That is a terrible paradox.
	So... All right.
	Well, thank you very much. I really, really appreciate everyone's call tonight.
	It was a great, great pleasure to chat with everyone.
	And please don't forget freedomain.com forward slash donate.
	I'm sure you've been staring at it for a while.
	And we didn't quite get to the massive libertarian criticisms that I was hoping to, but that's the joy of a live show that we find out what's going on.
	By the way, by the way, for those of you who are around for this show, This is the very, very first live streamed call-in show Dial-in show that we've ever had on this show after 15 years.
	This is the very, very first live dial-in show that we've ever done.
	And to the, what is it, 276 people who are trying to get through and to the people who didn't get through, I'm so sorry.
	I will do this again.
	Follow me on Twitter at Stefan Mullen.
	You'll find out more. And I will endeavor to get you on next time.
	But of course... I'm only one man.
	I'm not an animal.
	I am a human being. All right.
	Thanks, everyone. Have yourself a wonderful, wonderful evening.
	I guess what's left of it.
	And lots of love.

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