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Dec. 16, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:01:47
1535 The Late Starter - A Listener Conversation

The future does not open up.

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Okay, what can I do for you?
I wanted to ask you a question, two questions, before getting to what I wanted to talk to you about.
One was on Plot 450 and Libertopia, you mentioned you were working on a novel about a group of people trying to go and found one of these things, and I was wondering if you were still working on it.
No, I haven't.
I wrote probably about two-thirds of it, but events overtook me and it remains in the draw.
I don't have any plans on picking it up, but maybe someday.
Right. And the other thing was the difference of...
Because I've been thinking about the idea of sort of chopping up a whole bunch of the arguments, like from the argument for morality, and I was wondering whether the arguments for morality and UPV are pretty much the same thing, or one is the explanation of the other, or one is the methodology to which you come to the other?
No, I think the argument for morality simply says don't judge a system by its consequences.
So you don't say the free market is good because it makes people wealthier, but the free market is good because it's moral.
And then if you're going to use the argument for morality, then I suggest UPB is the way of doing that.
So I think the argument for morality leads to UPB, but they're not the same thing.
Right. So it's like avoiding the argument from effect.
Oh yeah, that's definitely a hole with no bottom.
Yes. Alright, let's get to the stuff that you wanted to talk about from a personality standpoint, or the issues that you wanted to bring up, because I think that's pretty pressing stuff, right?
Yes. I live in a house with three people, and it's basically my mom's.
My mom's boyfriend, my mom, and a tenant brought her home from the last job I had and it's been increasingly difficult for me and I've been, for example,
urging my mom about getting therapy herself and she said she's going to and to what degree am I taking over ownership for what should be her Sorry to interrupt, but you're in your mid-20s, right?
Right, I'm 23.
What's your life looking like over the next couple of years?
What are your plans? Or hopes, if you don't have plans?
I have plans, and given the situation, they look like hopes.
It's a lot of things, but basically I still haven't finished high school.
I'm really related to one of the Sunday shows in which you spoke with someone, I don't remember where from, but they were in the very same situation.
And you talked about the concept of the Lost Boys, that we have to pretty much race ourselves and look for knowledge ourselves and try to figure out things ourselves.
And I very much identified with that.
Because I haven't finished high school.
I still have to take a math test.
I've been stalling and stagnating in debt for a few years.
You see, my father died when I was nine years old and he left a pension for my mom and for myself.
And it's basically a state pension because he worked for the state.
He was a pretty famous doctor here and he founded a nuclear medicine wing and basically one of the One of the pensions that was undermining my mom's care was dependent on my education.
And I remember growing up feeling like a great deal of my education was based on the social perception and I remember that the very last couple of years it was more like Because when I was 14 years old, I got out of the secondary system, the high school system.
I was in a priest's school, priest-run school for a year.
And I failed five subjects.
And usually, past three subjects, you're not allowed to take a test at the end of the year.
But I showed up to pass the test.
They told me, here, have your diploma for this year, but get the hell out of here.
And so I started this public education thing where you pretty much show up to the state tests every six months and I would pretty much study about a month or a couple weeks before the test and I would pass until I bumped into the final year's math test.
But at the very end, regarding the pension, I felt like a lot of times I felt like it was not about my education but about the income that came from the pension.
Because we would go to like institutes, preparatory institutes for these state tests and to try to get a certification that I was like enrolled just so I could extend at times the...
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm a bit concerned that if we spend time trying to explore everything that happened, you know, 5 or 10 or 15 years ago, we're not going to get to the present and the future.
So basically you're 23 and you don't have your high school.
Right. And so why don't you...
So you say you've been putting off this math test, right?
Right. And why have you been doing that?
I mean, you're welcome to do it.
It's your life. I'm just wondering...
I guess I'm curious why you've been putting that off.
I'd assume that to get on with your life, it's pretty important to have that education, right?
You're completely right on about...
I'm not going to go over my life, but probably one of the aspects that I was...
Trying to get to where that was, that as I grew up in this very status place, I felt like my education was not about knowledge, and it was more rather about my mom's social responsibility, not relevant to me, but relevant to how it is perceived, her obligation, her social obligation of providing me with an education.
So I always loved knowledge, but I hated school, so I never paid much attention to it.
And during my teen years I fell in love with a Canadian girl and I put everything off and I wanted to go to Canada and then they passed a Canadian visa for Costa Rica.
So I spent nearly four years of my life putting efforts into that and I... I'm sorry, you spent four years of your life trying to get into Canada?
Basically, in a long-term relationship with a girl who I met online, she's Canadian, and we met in New York because I couldn't go to Canada.
We only spent like four days of our lives together in real life.
Sorry, I'm just trying to understand what you mean.
So you say you spent four years of your life trying to get into Canada?
Basically, yes. I have a...
Well, no, basically, no, because when you try...
I mean, sorry to interrupt, but...
Unless it's very different from where you are, when you try to get into a country, you send in forms and then you spend a lot of time waiting for responses, right?
Right. I got my visa application denied twice.
Yeah, but so you didn't actually spend time doing it because most of the time is spent waiting for them to get back to you, right?
Oh, right, right. Okay, I'm just checking that.
So you didn't spend four years trying to get into Canada.
It's just you filled out some forms and other things happened or whatever, right?
And the reason that I'm interrupting you is that you obviously have some insight into what has happened in your life that has led you to where you are.
But my concern is that whatever insights you've had into your life, my friend, have not helped you to overcome the barriers to your future.
So whatever it is that you're telling me about your life...
It has not been enough to help you overcome your hesitations or reticence about the future, if that makes any sense.
So everything that you're telling me are insights that haven't got you to the next level, right?
Oh, right. That's right on.
For the most part of my life, I felt like I was going in two directions at once.
Like, for example, that whole relationship, in a way, looking back on it, was A way of escapism from not knowing where to go or what I really wanted.
Right, so why is it that you...
What benefits are you getting out of not getting on with your life?
Well, to a degree, I don't want to get defensive, and I hope it's not defensive, but this year particularly, I felt greatly like I'm sort of catching up with my life since I found FDR. And finally,
you know, it's probably never until FDR that I realized that the purpose of life is happiness.
And in a way, I've done certain things to sort of get on with my life.
But I feel that basically what's held me back for the longest time in my life is that I feel that I don't have control over my environment, and I live in a very rough environment, and because of having grown up in it, I am fearful of getting out of it.
I'm sorry, I understand.
You live with your mom, right?
Right. So you don't have control over your environment?
No. I mean, you say it's not just a feeling, right?
Right, it's a fact.
It's a fact, right? So it's a reality.
So I'm still not sure what...
I'm sorry if I missed it, but what is the benefit that you get from not taking this math course?
Or not taking this math test?
Apparently nothing.
But now that you say benefit, there is something to be said about the fact that I've never felt like, well, if I get that, how is that going to make my life Because before I used to think, you know, there's a myth here in Costa Rica that if you don't have a high school diploma, you can get a job.
And one year, the year that I was trying to save money to go to Canada, I made $12,000 at a call center, which by here standards, by the Costa Rican standards, it's...
It's good money, yeah. Good money.
And then after that, you know, I felt like, well...
Well, if I do that, what's it going to get from me?
And that was also avoiding the question of not knowing really what I want to do with my life in terms of professional.
Probably it's a way of not having to decide for one thing, because I'm curious about nearly all forms of knowledge.
You've really put it very clearly in FDR that if you're a dentist, you're in the process of not being a plumber.
And that's probably...
A fork in the road that I'm afraid of facing.
Okay, so what's the current plan then?
So if you don't want to specialize, which is obviously fine, you can stay living with your mom until she dies or whatever, and then maybe she'll get some insurance or whatever, and you can continue to live off that.
So what's wrong with that?
The current plan for me, right now I'm planning to DFU, I'll finish the test, get my high school diploma next year, and then decide if I want to go into neuroscience, medicine, or something.
Okay, and so how can I help you?
The DFU part, the DFU part, is really difficult for me because Because I feel, you know, about a couple months ago, I said, you know, I'm leaving.
And I said, you know, I'm going to go get a job.
I'm going to leave. And to a degree, she didn't want me to.
And, you know, there's a lot of corruption involved.
And, you know, she gets attention from the state.
So that's an incentive to not go and work.
And at the same time, you know, I benefit indirectly from that.
And, you know, she subsidizes me.
And, of course, the scenario you just presented, I don't want to be in that.
I don't want to, you know, live off of that.
So, my problem is...
Sorry to interrupt.
And I don't know much about your family history, but why would you need to defu in order to move out and get on with your life?
Which, at the age of 23, is not like you're 14 or something, right?
I mean, you're a legal adult many years, so...
Can you not move out and get started with your life without necessarily taking a break?
Maybe you can. Maybe you can't.
I just sort of want to understand that.
Well, can I continue to live here?
Can I stay here while she is...
No, sorry.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Mm-hmm.
It seems to me that if you say, in order to move out, I have to defoo, that you're putting up another barrier to moving out and getting on with your life.
Right. Well, to be honest, until I came to UFDR and I heard the term of defooing at all, I never felt like I want to get out of here.
You never felt that you wanted to move out from your mom's place?
No. And when did you start listening?
About this year.
Somewhere around January, maybe?
Okay. And so you've gone from never wanting to move out of your mom's place to now wanting to separate from your mom.
And, I mean, either choice is obviously fine with me.
It's your life. I'm just... I'm just curious.
Those seem like two extremes.
And can't you just say, look, mom, I'm 23, right?
You had your life.
You married my dad. You had a kid or kids.
You've got a boyfriend now.
You've had your life.
My life is still yet to begin in many ways because I'm living with my mom and, you know, that's not good.
And obviously I'm subsidized, which is not good because it makes me lazy or it makes me unambitious or whatever, right?
Each day just drips away.
I think that's what's...
Help me back, you know, the corruption of knowing that I don't have to care after myself, that I'm subsidized?
Sure, yes. Look, subsidies are terrible that way.
I mean, they are, you know, they create dependency, without a doubt.
So, can't you just say, look, Mom, it's time for me to move out.
I'm a big boy now.
It's time for me to move out, and it's time for me to start my life.
Now, I mean, why does it have to be, and maybe there's a good reason, I don't know, but Why does it have to be that there's this big, horrible, massive Adifu that you have to go through in order to do what is natural, I think, for a man in his 20s, which is to move out and to begin his life in that way.
Well, she is very codependent to herself.
To a degree, also, I don't know if I would be faced with With some sort of guilt trip of...
I mean, if I don't defu, she might go and say, you know, you abandoned me and...
Well, sure, she might, for sure.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you mentioned that in an email, right?
So I can certainly understand that that may be the case.
And I'm trying to sort of understand, like, okay, so what?
And then, you know...
I'm sure she'll always help me in terms of an education, but probably it's a fear because I don't know and I've never experienced what it's like to be on your own, to get a job and pay rent and be on your own and completely on your own.
I've always felt or have been trained, I guess, to feel afraid of solitude until this year.
Well, okay.
I mean, there's a lot in what you said, and I'll just touch on some topics briefly.
But first of all, if you are afraid because you've not done these things before, then surely avoidance is the worst strategy, right?
Because it's not like you're going to be less afraid tomorrow or less afraid next week or next month or next year or 10 years from now.
The longer you stay in a situation that is weakening you, the weaker you get.
It's like you're dying of thirst in some desert and you say, well, I don't want to walk anywhere to look for water because I'm just going to get more thirsty.
It's like, well, yeah, but what's the alternative?
It's the alternative to not face these fears because, of course, every time you avoid a fear, the fear gets bigger and you get smaller.
Every time you avoid a test, the test gets meaner and you get more cowardly.
And I'm not calling you a coward.
I'm just saying that... Every time you don't exercise a muscle, the muscle gets weaker, right?
I have progressively this year tried, for example, I've had like several friendships this year that have completely, totally died out.
And because I stood up against what I thought were fundamentally opposing moral values and basically abuse, even You know, assault or verbal abuse, saying, you know, no wonder they hit you when you're a kid type things.
And progressively I've been getting those sorts of people from my life, out of my life.
And I think that that's like my stepstones this year, like in a way, why I, when you asked me at the beginning, why do you, why do you feel like You're not moving on with your life.
I feel like somehow this, you have started to do that by getting the bad people out of my life.
And that's probably been the way that I've step by step tried to not be afraid of solitude or being alone.
And it's been tough because it seems like progressively I've been losing friends somehow.
Sure, sure, sure.
And if you lose them, they're Weren't friends, right?
I mean, if you speak your minds in an honorable way and people reject you, then...
They weren't friends. Yeah, they weren't friends.
Okay, so...
So you say you have fears of being alone if you move out.
Does that mean that you don't feel alone now?
That you feel that you're in an intimate or helpful or positive relationship with the people you live with, with your mom and her boyfriend?
Right. That's something that has...
It's growingly been occurring since I found out that I feel lonely but in a crowd.
Like I'm full of people that don't have the same values or don't have values at all or this relativistic cultural hutch-putch and I feel like there's no way for me to communicate.
It's like I'm a lonely neuron type thing and it's very frustrating.
But probably is the uncertainty of, you know, the economics of it, you know, like, where will I move?
Okay, look, look, you got to focus here, right?
Because we're either going to talk about your mom, or we're going to talk about your education, or we're going to talk about your loneliness, or we're going to talk about your codependency, or we're going to talk about your friends, or we're going to talk about...
But we have to pick a topic here, because it's like trying to grab a piece of jello at the moment, right?
What is it that you want to get out of the call?
How is it that I can most help you?
I think the topic here is the steps necessary to move out.
But you know those steps. I mean, in terms of the practical things, right?
You know those steps, right?
You need to finish your high school diploma.
You say it's just one test, right?
You're a smart guy. You can study for that and pull that off in a week or two, right?
You need to get a job.
And you need to find a roommate or you need to get a place to live and you need to go to work and you need to pay for your food and your rent and your internet and start from there.
I mean, the practical steps are easy, right?
I'm not saying that it's emotionally easy, but you know what to do, right?
Right. So I don't think I can help you with that.
So what are the other blocks?
As you just said, the emotional aspect of it seems overwhelming.
As I told you right now, I have a very small income and I thought, well, if I'm going to move out first, give it a couple months of therapy so I will have the emotional strength to do it.
Okay, so do you have the means to do that?
No, no, don't have that.
So probably, you're right.
I mean, it's all pretty simple, but at the same time, it involves my mother and the fact that she's got her own problems and I feel that if I left, perhaps I would be leaving her in problems that she is not able to cope with on her own.
Do you think that you're helping her now?
I feel that I'm trying to help her and probably...
No, no, not trying. You've got to be precise.
Do you think that you're helping her now?
And if you think that you are helping her now, what is the evidence?
If I am helping her now and I'm looking for evidence of that, probably the fact that she looked for a therapist, that she's been actively taking care of some things relative to that she's been actively taking care of some things relative to the house, unimportant
But basically, I brought my emotional or romantic partner here and we helped her with some house things that she's completely neglected for years.
Okay, so for how many years have you been trying to help your mother?
A couple months.
I've always felt some...
Sorry, are you saying that you've only tried to help your mother with these issues for the past few months?
Yes. And before that you didn't try to help her?
No, I didn't feel like she earned my respect and deserved being helped.
And rather that she has to pay restitution to me for damaged guns.
Okay, so you didn't particularly want to help her.
And if your mother doesn't want you to leave, is that right?
Right. She's codependent and she doesn't know what it's like to be on her own, completely independent and be happy.
Okay, so your mother doesn't want you to leave.
And do you think that your mother has a plan?
Like, will you be able to leave when you're 30?
Will she support you leaving when you're 35?
Like, what's the plan?
If she doesn't want you to leave, is the plan for you to stay With her until she dies?
Well, I've never asked myself that question.
I've never asked her that question.
But, you know, you can ask her in your mind, right?
And you can ask her in real life.
It's just that she's not on the phone right now.
But what is the plan?
Like, so if you're not supposed to leave, are you ever supposed to leave?
Is there ever a time when it's going to be okay to leave?
Or do you have to wait until she's in her grave?
I think that in order to get an approximate to an answer, given the fact that she's not here, I would look around at the culture of where I'm at, and usually what happens here is that people don't leave their parents until they've finished university.
Right. And then they go on to move out or marry or do whatever, but usually people don't move out until they've finished university, around Around this time, around your mid-20s.
Right. I've asked her, what's her plan about her own life?
And she's said some vague things about what she wants to do.
And in the way that I've been trying to quote-unquote help her, is sort of urging her to tell her, you know, well, what are you going to do?
You know, do you want to stay in this situation for the rest of your life?
And... And you should go see a therapist.
But basically, I'm left to assume that that would seem to be the plan.
But within my own family, I got uncles, an uncle and an aunt that forever lived with my grandfather until he died.
But they were married, right?
No, they weren't married.
Oh, they were single? They were single and staying with my grandfather's household until he died.
And that's not what I want for myself.
But then you have to move out.
Right. And I'm still not sure what the barrier is.
You say that your mother wants you to stay.
Well, that's okay. Moms are allowed to be clingy, right?
I mean, I'm sure as heck not going to want my daughter to go to university in 17 years, right?
So I'm going to resist that, I'm sure, in some perhaps unconscious way.
I don't want my wife to go to work because I like her company, but she has to go to work, right?
So it's okay for your mom to want you to stay home.
It's okay for your mom to never want you to leave in a way, right?
I mean, I'm not saying it's healthy, but she's allowed to not want you to leave, right?
Yeah, it wouldn't be as surprising in a way.
Yeah, yeah, sure, for sure, for sure.
And so... And she's okay to...
It's okay for her to want you to...
Maybe in her generation, that was the...
Everyone did... You know, she's just not used to something that's different.
You know, like when I got married, my wife's parents wanted it to be in a church.
And it was fine with me that they wanted us to get married in a church.
That's fine. They're welcome.
They're not going to get me into a church.
But they're welcome to want that.
Because, you know, I'm not going to control what they feel.
Right? Because if they want me to get married in a church, then they can do that.
It doesn't mean I have to get married in a church, but they're certainly welcome to their feelings, right?
Right. So your mother is certainly welcome to her feelings about wanting you to stay.
She's certainly welcome to her anxiety, perhaps, as you say, about being alone, although she has a boyfriend and you don't have a girlfriend, so you may have more to worry about in that sense.
I do have a romantic sort of...
Oh, you do? Okay, so neither of you are going to be separate, right?
My mom and I? Yeah, I mean, you're neither going to be completely alone.
She has a boyfriend and you have a romantic relationship.
So that's not a particular issue.
And if the relationship is not positive for her, then she's perfectly free to choose a bad relationship, right?
She is? Yeah, she's perfectly free to do that.
I don't think it's healthy.
It's like people are free to smoke.
I don't think it's healthy, but they can smoke.
They can stay up all night drinking.
They can not go to work.
They can, I don't know, they can get tattoos or all other things that I think are bad and stupid.
But she's free to do that.
It doesn't mean that you have to approve.
It doesn't mean that it's your responsibility because she's an adult and she's your mom.
You can't Your parents, right?
I do feel like, to a degree, that I have a moral obligation to somehow intervene.
However, I don't have the courage.
Sorry, why do you have an obligation to intervene?
Because of my own well-being Which she doesn't seem to have the tools because of her own life history and her own false self to deal with.
And I feel that for me to leave, perhaps leaving her at the mercy of things that she herself cannot control because she was not taught to.
She was not taught to.
She was not taught to. She was not taught to the tools to stand up for her own self, to choose who to allow in her life to To say this is not acceptable, to know that she can be alone and be okay.
She's got very deep, low self-esteem issues, and I feel like if I leave, I might be leaving her at the mercy of, I don't know.
I don't know. Okay, so your theory then is that if you stay, you can protect her from a negative relationship.
No. No, no, that has to be your theory, right?
Because if you say, if I leave, then she's at the mercy of, then if you stay, you must be able to protect her, right?
Because if she's not benefiting from you staying, then that argument doesn't work, right?
You just reminded me something.
Last night, I was listening to one of your podcasts, and I actually wrote this down, because it completely has to do with this.
You said once, to indicate that you were cowardly for not inviting a beating from a man larger than you who had historically beaten you for many years.
That to me is prudence, intelligence and cunning and smart.
It is not a lack of courage.
And to a degree that's perhaps...
One of the feelings involved in my situation.
As I told you earlier, it's not been but a couple months that I've actually felt...
Look, this is the logic that you're not seeing, and I certainly don't blame you for not seeing it, right?
But if your mother doesn't want you to leave, and you're staying because she's in a negative relationship, then she has no incentive to end that negative relationship.
Right. No, no, take a moment.
Take a moment. This is an important thought, and you're kind of in a rush here, right?
But this is important, right?
If your mother doesn't want you to leave, and you won't leave if she's in a negative relationship, then she knows that if she's in that negative relationship, you will stay.
I can see that.
Yeah. And that's what I mean when I say we have to be very careful about how we try to help people.
Because it's really complex.
It's really complex to help people.
I don't think that children can help parents.
It's just my opinion, right?
I don't think that children can help parents in that way.
Because there's too much history.
Like, if she's putting up with violence, then she's also exposed you to violence.
If she's putting up with abuse, she's also exposed you to abuse.
You say that she was destructive to you when you were younger.
I mean, how can you want to help somebody who, as you say, robbed you of your childhood?
I mean, maybe a therapist can help her.
Maybe other people can help her.
But you're the victim to the point where you're seriously considering separating from your mom, which I know in your culture is a huge thing.
A huge thing. So, how can you as the victim...
Genuinely and with love and compassion wants to help your victimizer.
As I told you, I did not feel ever like helping her up until a couple months ago.
But you were helping her by staying.
Or was that just that you liked the money?
Well, that's probably, you know, as I told you, there's definitely the corruption of being subsidized in the whole situation.
Then when I said, no more of this, you know, there are too many fucked up behaviors that I'm seeing, I'm leaving.
Then when I first mentioned that, then I brought it up and she said, please don't leave me yet, don't leave me Because I'd be scared or whatever.
And I thought, well, that's just crazy.
So I just went on my own business, you know, working on my own personal growth.
And then it's not been till a couple months now that I try to tell her, you know, I can't make decisions for you.
What you have to do is you've got to go to a therapist.
You've got to, you know, make your own choices.
And... Well, look, it sounds to me like, because everything that I say, you have a great answer for, so it sounds to me, I'm not sure what you want to talk about.
It sounds to me like you've got everything under control.
Because every time I say, well, there's this, you say, well, no, because I've got this solution, and I did this, and this is working out fine.
So it sounds to me like you're good to go.
I'm not sure what I can do to help you.
Or even if you need any help.
I mean, it sounds like you've got a good answer for objections or problems, so...
I'm not sure where to go from here.
Many times I've listened to you saying you don't need anyone telling you what to think or what to do.
You can be your own authority.
And as I've listened throughout this year to GFDR, I've been trying to think of what I have to do.
But then, you know, this house, I don't know if I mentioned that, you know, I'm partly the owner of this house.
I feel some degree of entitlement to be here.
And yet, you know, I can't kick anyone out.
I can't demand or control the actions of other people in terms of abusive behavior.
And, you know, this is partly my house, and I could be fine here.
I could probably get a job and still be here.
And still say, you know, don't speak to me that way or simply ignore a lot of the stuff that goes around and, you know, disengage while still not having to pay rent and, you know, get a job.
But lately I felt like, no, it's too complicated.
I don't feel like I have enough power to either kick anyone out or demand a change in behavior for as long as I'm here.
And I don't know if I should first get a job, save up a whole bunch of money for backup for rent, and then say that I'm leaving.
And I don't know.
I mean, the first step that I thought of, you know, what am I doing to move forward in my life is, you know, come February or the end of January, I'm going to look for a job.
Should I move out right away or should I stay?
And that I have left it open to whether she goes to therapy or not by then.
Right, so it sounds like you have a plan.
What would you do if you were in a situation where three people, as you said, they're all partly victimizers and yet you see Abuse going on from both ends.
And you know that that's not right.
But they're older than you.
They were older than you when you were just a child.
And you feel like, well, am I being corrupted by being exposed to this and not doing anything?
Oh, it's not your job to fix it.
It's not your job to fix it.
I personally think it's unhealthy for you to try, in my opinion.
It's really unhealthy for you to try.
Even if people got injured, I want you to imagine a little bit of what I go through.
My door hasn't got a lock, for one thing.
And secondly, sometimes you hear yelling in the middle of the night.
Sometimes she'll just wake me up at whatever time it is, if I'm asleep.
But you're putting up with it!
If you want to help people, You show them freedom.
You don't lecture them.
You show them freedom.
You say, look, your boyfriend's mom is abusive.
He yells, he hits, he throws things, whatever, I don't know, it doesn't matter, but your boyfriend is abusive, and I'm not putting up with it, so I'm going to move out.
That is showing her what it is like to stand up for yourself.
And if she's interested in that, Then she will have an example of somebody not putting up with abuse, not being bought out by a government pension, and standing on his own two feet and getting his own life going.
You can show her that behavior by doing it, not telling her to do it while you're not doing it.
Because if you're staying there putting up with an abusive environment, How on earth can you lecture her to not put up with it?
it because you're not only putting up with it, you're profiting from it.
Right.
You have to show her what a dedication to nonviolence means.
Which means I'm not going to be bought off by government money from my father who died 15 years ago.
I'm not going to put up with an abusive environment.
I'm not going to put up with an abuser in my environment.
I'm going to walk out and build my life, and if people are interested, then they're welcome to ask me how I did it.
And I'll say, well, I read this book, or I listened to this podcast, or, you know, this stuff will be really helpful for you.
But you can't tell your mom, mom, you should get on with your life, and you should not put up with an abusive relationship.
When you're not getting on with your life, you're being paid off by the government, and you're living in an abusive environment.
Helping people is about showing, not telling.
It's about showing them what it means to live with integrity to your values.
Now, if you say, I'm not taking this government money anymore...
I've got too much pride to take a hand out from the state, which I morally oppose.
And of course, I say, I don't say this to everyone, but you also, I mean, I say to people, well, you paid taxes, but you haven't really paid taxes, right?
So you can show her what it means to live with your values.
Now, she may look at that and she might say, my son's an asshole.
She might. I don't know the woman.
Who knows, right? But she might.
She might say, you know, that's really admirable.
I want to do that, too.
And then she'll ask you, maybe you can help her then, but she's still going to do it herself.
But she might look at you and say, he abandoned me.
It's terrible. She goes on a drinking binge or whatever.
And it's like, wow, that's a real shame.
That's a real shame. You know, like if you're in the sea and there's a big storm...
And you reach over your hand over the side of the lifeboat.
And you want to help somebody into the lifeboat.
You grab them and you pull.
But if they try to pull you into the water, if they try to pull you down, then you let go.
Of course you do. What else can you do?
Drown for the sake of no reason?
For nothing? And so you want to show your mom what it means to live...
With integrity. With courage.
With boundaries.
With virtue. With independence.
And if she's capable of that, if she wants that, then she will at least have an example of someone who's done it.
And she can find out.
And you can point her to some resources like therapy or books or podcasts or whatever.
And then she can do what you did.
But there's no point.
In fact, it's worse than useless to...
For a guy who's 23 who hasn't finished high school to be telling his mom how to live.
I don't think she can do it.
Well, that's a shame.
I think that's a real shame.
If you don't think that she can do it, then you have a choice.
You can either sit there and lecture her and more years of your life can drain away to no effect.
Or you can leave and say, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry that you've made the decisions that you've made.
I'm sorry that you're stuck where you are.
I'm sorry that you prefer this life to another kind of life.
But everyone's free to make their own choices.
Your choices do not bind me.
They do not inflict themselves upon me unless I let them.
But you are welcome to choose really badly.
I mean, my mom has spent her whole adult life.
I mean, I guess she's not worked in decades.
And she just wasted on paranoid nonsense, hatreds of various people and groups and petty little vindictive campaigns against people.
And it's like, gosh, I think that's a terrible way to live your life.
I wish she would make different choices.
But she's free to make those choices because there's no other alternative.
I can't get into her brain, work a lever and make different choices for her.
Those are the choices that she's making.
I don't think anymore they're even choices, but it doesn't really matter.
And I think it's a real shame that she's choosing to spend her life, her precious once-ever life, in that kind of way.
I think it's really tragic. But what's my choice?
Is my choice to sit down with her in the muck And the mud and the filth of pettiness and resentment and paranoia.
So instead of one life being destroyed, two lives get destroyed for no purpose.
Does that add to the virtue and happiness and beauty of the world?
For me to throw myself off the mountaintop, down into the squalid mess of paranoia and hatred and blame and misery?
Well, I don't think that helps at all.
I don't think that it's a good idea for someone to get a tattoo.
Does that mean I have to go and get a tattoo as well?
Of course not. They're free to do that to themselves.
My mom is free to do whatever she wants with her life, and she can waste it in the way that she's wasting it.
But that doesn't mean that I have to waste my life.
What on earth would be the point of that?
What if I said to you...
What if I said, Steph...
That I'll get a job and I'll save money, but I will not move out.
Is there anything courageous for me to do while staying?
Because it's still my house.
Partly. What do you mean it's your house?
When my father died, he left the will.
And the will, the house, it's a fairly, you know, big size by his standards house.
It's half my mom's and half mine.
My two stepsisters.
So, technically speaking, this is partly my property, and, you know, I don't have to pay rent that way.
So, if I went, got a job, and I stayed, would there be any virtuous way of dealing with a situation?
Do I ignore everybody and just go about my own business?
Or am I still, you know, being corrupted by being exposed to an environment where I Where I'm exposed to seeing all this shit pretty much and not doing anything.
Well, I mean, obviously there's no clear answer to it, I don't know, but this would be sort of my way of looking at it, if that helps.
I don't think it's your house.
I mean, it was your dad's house.
He died a long time ago.
You've been living rent-free long past the time that most people live rent-free.
I think you've gotten a lot of value out of that house already.
You can, of course, ask your mom and say, look, I want some of the value that's in the house.
I'd like you to take out a mortgage and give me some money and then I'll give up my title.
You can ask your family to give you a certain amount of money that is equal to your portion of the house and then sign a piece of paper saying that you don't want the house anymore.
You can sell. Your interest in the house and maybe you can raise some money that way or whatever.
But that seems all kinds of complicated and messy and so on.
I mean, I don't know if it's a billion dollar mansion and it doesn't really matter, but just make your own way in the world.
Don't rely on what your father made or don't rely on what the government gives you or don't rely on what the handouts from your mother.
Just make your own way in the world.
That is where pride and independence and freedom and self-respect comes from.
You didn't earn that house.
You didn't build that house.
You didn't pay for that house.
You just inherited it.
It's not really your house.
I mean, I don't want to get into the property rights of inheritance because that doesn't really matter, but you didn't earn that house.
And I think to hang around for the sake of saving a little bit of money on rent, you know, I mean, I lived in a room with...
Another guy. Like, we both lived in the same room, which may not be that unusual where you are.
It's kind of unusual here. I couldn't stand that.
Sorry? I couldn't stand that.
That's probably also the...
I mean, I wouldn't mind...
You know, probably I could get a flat for about $300 a month to live on my own.
You know, it's... So, you're saying that you wouldn't get a roommate?
Right. Why not?
That's another problem and I remember earlier on the conversation you told me, you know, what's the point of this call right now?
And one of the things that's been happening especially this week, you know, I told you a couple of months ago, you know, there's a tenant here and I've been, and I get some income from that and yet lately it feels like, you know, like Like, I have to de-foo, and there's a conflict of interest, an economic conflict of interest from that, and the fact that, you know, living together, that doesn't help.
It makes a lot of awkward situations, because, you know, you hear things like, friends are friends, and comes with the territory, and things like that, you know?
I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about.
Could you try and be a little more clear?
I don't know what the content of this part is.
I went through to...
We're talking about roommates, why you don't want a roommate.
Right. I don't think I would enjoy the situation of the collective environment.
Okay, so what you're saying is that living with a woman who abused you and her abusive boyfriend is fine, but living with somebody who's not abusive, who you haven't known for that long, is not.
Well, put into perspective, that sounds like...
Sounds a little crazy, doesn't it?
Right. I mean, it sounds like a fair deal, the complete stranger who's sort of neutral to the craziness of the environment.
Oh, hell yeah.
Oh, hell yeah. I mean, I bet you you're so consumed with this exhausting and abusive environment that you can't even finish high school five years or six years after you're supposed to.
How can you study for a math test?
How can you plan? How can you prepare?
Because you're in this chaotic and abusive environment.
Yeah, that's sort of how it always felt and that got me into a very, in several different, like three phases throughout my life of deep nihilism.
Sure. What's the point of anything?
You know, I'm trapped here.
Look, I'll tell you, I'm not going to obviously do anything to change your life.
I mean, this is just my particular thoughts and you can mull it over.
My particular belief is that the very first thing that you need to do when you're in a traumatic situation is you need to get out of that traumatic situation.
That's the very first thing that you need to do.
It's like, before anything else, right?
So, it's sort of like saying, I'm in a burning house, what should I do?
Well, get out of the fucking house.
That's the first thing that you need to do.
And that doesn't mean defu.
I mean, that's a whole different issue which doesn't really matter particularly relative to this one.
If you're in a situation, if you're in this...
Look, this environment is clearly toxic for you because you've been spending five years doing not much of anything rather than getting on with your life.
And that's obviously been okay with your mom because she's not kicking you out in your ass saying, get out of here, Sonny, and get a life going.
She's hanging on to you.
She's clinging to you. She's guilting you.
Whatever, right? So clearly the environment is toxic and we know that because your life has completely stalled, right?
To the point where a very intelligent fellow like yourself can't even do a high school math course, right?
So clearly the environment is toxic.
You and I can agree on that, right?
Right. Is that through some magical, amazing, wonderful set of words or arguments or perspectives or energy or whatever, that you can detoxify the environment so that you can continue to stay there and not have the financial inconvenience of moving out, right? Right.
Well, I don't think that you can.
And my very, very first piece of advice would be, you're in a toxic environment and Your mother has a historical authority and size and power over your mind.
As all parents do, that's inevitable.
It doesn't mean it's bad, but in your case with your mom, it may well have been.
So you can't manage upwards.
You can't. You're like some fry cook at McDonald's trying to say, well, I can influence the CEO. It doesn't work that way.
Family authority is one way.
You know, parents just have so much historical authority and power over their children that maybe, you know, when the kids are 60 and the parents are 80, then it can be reversed.
But not when you're this young.
And so you...
Yeah? I mean, I completely agree with everything you're saying right now.
And I'm thinking, you know, well, okay, let's get something out of this, you know, to like...
Right on it. And I wanted to ask you, would you wait till you've got the high school diploma?
Would you get a job and save some money, get the high school diploma and then move out?
No, this is what I would do.
Let me give you something practical, right?
Because I think you understand what I mean with the other thing.
Here's the practical thing.
This is what I would do if I were in your situation.
I would say, okay, I'm going to give myself, and I don't know what the time frame is, but just, you know, give me some latitude.
I'd say, okay, I'm going to give myself two weeks to pass this test.
Two weeks.
Now, if I can pass the test in two weeks, great.
I get my high school diploma.
If I don't finish the test or pass the test in two weeks, I'm moving out.
You don't have to make that decision now, like ahead of time.
Give yourself a deadline and say, now, if the test isn't for six months, then just move out, right?
But give yourself a deadline.
Because if you give yourself a deadline and you miss that deadline, it means you're in an environment where you can't make any plans and follow through on them, which means you're in a burning building.
I'm sorry? You just mentioned that.
I think that the test will not be taught least two or three months.
Yeah, well then I wouldn't wait for that myself.
Just get a job and move away.
Yeah. I mean, I tell you, you'll be in a much better position to take that test if you are in a more peaceful environment.
Okay, and the other thing, going in that direction towards getting the job.
You know, I've had about three jobs in my life.
I've had, you know, call center jobs at customer service, sales, I worked for a couple days for a friend at a real estate behind the counter.
I've done some translation.
I don't have a high school diploma.
I haven't got any sort of certification.
I have some computer skills, but how in a desperate situation where you don't have a high school diploma, where pretty much the jobs that are around are pretty much doing repetitive things, In corporate call centers, how would you present yourself?
Well, you present yourself honestly.
I'm a hard worker.
I'm highly motivated. I'm going to get my high school diploma in a couple of months and you take whatever people will give you.
Unless you have some entrepreneurial idea, but you just take whatever job you can get.
I mean, there's no magic to that, right?
I mean, as I said, one summer I was weeding gardens.
I was painting houses.
I was, you know, I mean, whatever you can get, you get.
And if you say, well, this is an affront to my dignity, well, that's just a big incentive to get yourself educated and move up.
That's what you just said.
I'm affront to my dignity.
Sure. Well, you're the son of a famous doctor.
You shouldn't be weeding gardens.
You shouldn't be doing construction, right?
It's not so much that because that's more, you know, false self stuff, but you just said something that I realized.
This year, you know, since, you know, I quit the job and I just lived on a handout for my mom and the hundred bucks I make from them, you know, I have tons of time, tons, tons of time to, you know, FDR, you know, like six hours a day, you know, neurobiology books that I download and read or, you know, all of this time, you know, that I have for myself to do things, you know, learning.
And probably the real disincentive is probably not so much the money, but knowing that if I had to go for the money, I would all that time not be doing all these things that I love to do, you know?
Sure, sure. And look, I understand it.
I mean, absolutely, there's a lot of life that we don't want to do, for sure.
And the only other option is to remain children forever, which is your danger, right?
I mean, growing up is saying...
Man, there's a lot of stuff that I don't want to do.
But the only other option is to just do stuff you always want to do, which means other people have to subsidize you, and you remain a child your whole life, and you don't get self-esteem or pride or adulthood.
I just think it's worth it.
You know, it's a trade-off, right? I mean, we'd all love in some ways to have other people pay for us to do everything and us to pursue every wish that we wanted, but...
If that were the case, then every celebrity would be happy, right?
And they're really not.
It doesn't work out that way.
It may seem attractive, but it's really not.
That's why you had the panic attack the other day, right?
Right. I was listening to Nun Get Behind, and I was thinking, shit, my life is drifting away.
Yes. Yes, it is.
It is. It is.
You should panic. You should panic.
I'm not saying you should have a panic attack, but you bloody well should panic, because your life is in danger.
And look, I'm telling you, You don't have forever to make these decisions.
At some point, you simply will lose the ability.
Right? You should panic.
You should be like, shit, I am so far behind, I've really got to get moving now, or I'm never going to get out.
It's now or never.
You don't get to make this decision in five years.
Because who the hell is going to hire you when you haven't had a job in ten years?
You don't have forever.
You don't have an infinity of tomorrows to start your life.
At some point, it will become impossible.
So, I think you should panic.
Because that's going to give you some energy.
Well, thank you.
That really helped.
I'm glad. And I'm sorry that I kept interrupting.
You're always telling people that you already know everything.
You do. You wouldn't have panicked otherwise, right?
Right. But it still helps.
Sort of like when you're watching a painting and you step back and then you look at the big picture and you see what it is.
Right. You have too much to offer the world in terms of intelligence and capacity.
You have too much to offer the world than to hide at home And read books and amount to nothing.
You have too much to offer.
I'd almost say you don't have the right to withhold your gifts from the world, which is not the right way of putting it, but it's something kind of close.
You have too much to offer to not want to take adulthood with all of its difficulties and humiliations sometimes and annoyances.
It's just the price that we pay for growing up, and you can do it.
And given your gifts in particular, you damn well should.
Thanks very much, sir. You're very welcome.
I will send you a copy of this and you can let me know what you think.
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