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Dec. 15, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:11:55
1534 The Case for College - A Listener Conversation

The future opens up.

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Time Text
Hello. Hey, how's it going?
Hey, thank you so much for taking the time to take my call.
My pleasure, my pleasure. What can I do for you?
Okay, so, well, I guess I figured out a good portion of it.
Especially the...
I think I figured it out, but I'd like to run it past you.
The portion with my parents...
I think the reason I was feeling a lot of stress was actually because I was...
Okay, do you want me to describe the situation before it, or should I just tell you what I... It's absolutely up to you.
I think I figured out. Okay, good.
I have freedom of choice.
All right. Let me see.
I guess... Sorry, if you can't tell, I'm kind of nervous.
No problem at all. Just to take your time.
There's no rush. Alright, great.
So I just moved out of my friend's house.
I was living there pretty much for free, paying whenever I can.
Because I just recently got a job back in the area that I want to live.
And they were helping me out for a few weeks.
And I recently moved out into a very affordable room-eating situation.
And that's great.
And one day I was having some...
It was raining really bad and my car was having some trouble.
I had stopped by my parents' house to pick up a gift card for some groceries, which this is another story.
And my car just died while I was over there.
And I just got really upset, really, really just...
Devastated. I just felt like the world was going to crash around me just because my car had died out.
And I started crying and it was strange.
I had the feeling at first and then I thought, well, since I'm feeling it, I should go with it.
So I just kind of let it kind of explode.
Oh, good for you. Yeah, yeah, I'm really glad I did that.
But I think where I goofed up was that I went to talk to my dad, expecting, I guess, something.
Well, that may not have been a mistake, right?
Yeah, but I guess looking back on it, because it was just like...
I had to go to work in about 30 minutes or so before this, and...
And he was just, you know, you got to be a man, you got to get out there, and why are you crying?
You know, that kind of attitude.
And sorry, before you went to your father with your upset, did you feel that that would not be his response?
I can't really remember, to be honest.
Well, I mean, unless you're a masochist, you must have had some thought that he would be...
You know, kind or curious or empathetic or whatever.
So what I'm saying is that it may not have been a bad thing for you to do to find out more facts about the relationship.
Yeah, because obviously I was still unsure about it or I wouldn't have gone to him.
Yeah, I mean, I'll stop being an annoying lecture guy already.
I wouldn't assume that it was a mistake.
I would be curious, that self-real-time relationship thing, just be curious with yourself and say, I wonder why I did that.
That was very interesting. What did I learn out of that that I didn't know before and stuff like that.
That's great. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me of that.
Yeah, yeah, that already makes me feel a lot better about that particular situation.
But, yeah, I guess what I learned was that we're really at the same place, even...
When I feel like I'm at the bottom.
But I guess I'm more curious as to why I felt that in the first place.
Because the car turned out to be fine.
It worked after I got off of work, after the rain had subsided.
I mean, there was nothing wrong with it.
It's still fine. Sorry, even if there was something wrong with it, even if it died completely, it would still be worthwhile being curious about that response, right?
Definitely. It's not like, well, it was okay to feel that if the car had been broken, right?
Absolutely. So I think it's wise for you to be curious about that.
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
And I train of thought has crashed.
I'm sorry. It was my fault.
I interrupted. I apologize.
No, I like the interruptions.
Trust me. I'm just nervous.
You were talking about going to your dad and being upset, and he was a little harsh, I think you said, like, be a man and don't cry.
You had to go to work within half an hour, and then I began my endless interruptions.
It was around there. Yeah, and after I got to work, I started kind of RTRing it myself because I don't really...
Talk to too many customers.
It's not too busy. So I was able to work and do a lot of inward thinking and try to figure out why I had such a reaction to my dad more than to the actual situation.
I remember a quote that I had heard lots of times before, but I heard it recently on one of your podcasts that was Your true self kind of screams when you keep introducing it to destructive people.
I think that's what I've narrowed it down to.
I don't really know for sure, which is why I guess I'm having the call, because I feel just an unsettling feeling about the whole situation.
Now, the situation, you mean with your father?
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
And what is his...
Now, just before we start, and this is my usual caveat, so I just want you to be completely aware, this is just amateur guy in a red room.
No professional advice here, it's just my particular thoughts.
I just wanted to be clear. So take it as a complete grain of salt.
If it's useful, great. If not, feel free to discard it.
I'll take it as a whole salt shaker.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, so tell me a little bit about About your history with your father?
Well, my dad has always been that kind of, he's kind of the kind of guy where he's just, he seems so passive that he seems like the cool guy, like the cool dad, you know? It's like, oh, I hate my mom, but my dad's cool, you know?
So he's so laid back, he's horizontal and barely breathing, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes not breathing at all.
And just completely just everything's alright, you know?
He's the peacekeeper in the family.
He even calls himself that.
And what is the peace that he needs to keep?
Between me and my mother.
But, I mean...
Sorry to interrupt again. I know you're going to have the temptation to laugh.
Oh, man. And you hear it when other people do it.
And you're like, I'd never do that when talking about something so serious.
But it's inevitable. And I just wanted to point that out.
It's easier to go on if you don't do that.
Because otherwise it's disconcerting.
Anyway, go on. Oh, man.
I know. It's funny. Because you hear that and you're like, I'd never do that.
And it's like, oh, wait, I just did it.
Wow, that's so strange.
Wow. Sure. That's great.
Thank you for that. Yeah.
Sorry, the peace that he needs to keep between you and your mom, what's that?
Oh, my mom's just awful.
My mom's... I mean, my dad's awful, too.
Don't get me wrong. But my mom is vocally awful.
You can just see it.
They went through a whole pseudo-divorce thing.
Yeah. A few weeks ago.
I really don't remember the specific date, but they just completely went through this whole thing because I refused to go to Thanksgiving.
It wasn't that I refused to go to Thanksgiving.
I said I would go, but it's just I already had plans with really good friends.
I have a great friendship with these two guys, and they both listen to FDR. We've been really working on Eliminating all the dishonesty in our relationship.
And it's really great. And these are the friends I was staying with recently.
And I'm so glad that I have those guys, you know.
Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm amazed.
I'm amazed. I'm amazed.
As we often say here in philosophy circles, good friends are sent by Jesus.
Yes, yeah. So your mom, you were saying she's vocally awful.
What does that mean? Well, like...
I heard her say...
And I've never heard her say anything like this before, so it really shattered me at the time.
But I heard her say...
She was screaming at my dad, you should hit him for what he says to me.
When did she say that?
This was after she...
Started threatening him with the divorce.
Oh, you mean like a couple of weeks ago?
Yeah, yeah. Sorry about that.
Yeah. No, so she was asking your dad or suggesting to your dad that he should, I mean, what, punch you?
I mean, you're too old with a spank, right?
I mean, is your dad supposed to punch you in that scenario?
I would assume so.
I guess so.
But she was screaming it.
I mean, I heard it in the other room.
So you're in the house and she's saying this?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was awful. It was really terrible.
And then afterwards I thought, you know, if I were in this situation as my dad, I would really want somebody to talk to.
So I just, you know, I just cried and, you know, I was like, tell me about it.
And he just completely, he was like, you're going to have to leave, you know.
She's my wife, you know.
And Oh, it was awful.
I really... I'm sorry. Let me just make sure I understand.
So after this, after your mom left or you had some time alone with your dad, you were upset and you were crying and you were talking to him about this and you asked him how he felt about what your mom had said and this is what he said, that I have to stay with her and you should leave.
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I was in really tough...
I mean, I'm really worried about my financial situation.
And... I had just got a job and I just wanted a place to stay that was affordable enough so I could save some money and I was completely aware that I didn't want to be with my parents but it was worth it to save some money and I didn't want to impose on my friends and at the time I didn't think I had anywhere to go.
I thought I was going to have to sleep in my car and I was just completely devastated.
I really wanted to So your dad basically kicked you out, is that an unfair way to put it?
Yeah, kicked me out that night, yeah. And what was the, I mean, A, I'm completely sorry, but let's keep moving with, what was the incident that, or a series of incidents that precipitated your mom's statement, which is not to say that the incidents caused your mom to say that, but what, in her perspective, was the sequence of events that led her to that perspective?
Definitely. She, well, she had said, She had asked me about Thanksgiving, and I said, I don't remember the exact terms, but I really know I was being honest.
I was being as honest as possible.
And I was just completely trying to, I was kind of testing it.
This was the first time that I was really trying to be as honest as possible with a tough situation that I knew she would get emotional about.
And at one point, now this is something I really don't, I don't know where it came from, but she was just going off about how...
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just getting a bit of bumping and grinding from your microphone, which I guess means your pacing or something like that, if you could just hold a bit still.
Oh, sorry. I'm wrapping and unwrapping the cord around my toes.
Oh, okay. Good to know, but if you could not do that.
But, sorry, please go on about Thanksgiving with your mom, with the honesty.
Okay. And I said, you know, I... If you have it earlier in the day, or if I can come by earlier in the day, I'll do that.
That's fine. But I've already made plans with my friends, and I'd really rather spend Thanksgiving with them.
And she was really upset.
Oh, well, I don't think you should stay here if you're not going to be a part of the family.
And... She was going on this rant, and at one point, I don't know where this came from, and I'm really curious about it still to this day, but I couldn't help but smiling at one point.
And I didn't mean to be sadistic or anything like that.
I really wasn't trying. It felt really uncontrollable, and I was trying not to laugh or something, because she was being utterly ridiculous, and I didn't want to laugh at her.
I didn't want to even smile.
But I was having a real hard time keeping this smile down.
At one point she was like, why are you smiling or why are you grinning?
This must be funny for you. And I was like, I'm not meaning to.
I don't mean to offend you. I'm really sorry.
I don't know where it's coming from.
I'm trying to hold it back.
But I really don't know where it's coming from.
And that really got it escalated.
And I just continued saying, I really feel more comfortable around my friends and I'd really rather spend them Spend time with them at Thanksgiving.
Do you recall what it was that caused the smile?
I think it was just the ridiculousness of the situation.
I had heard it in my head so many times before and seen it on TV and sitcoms, you know, this whole you're killing the family kind of attitude and heard it in so many podcasts that it just...
I don't know why I smiled.
I know why I thought it was uncanny, but I don't know why I particularly smiled.
Right. I mean, I can understand, I mean, a parent being disappointed, but your view was, like, I'd be happy to split the day, right?
Like, I'm going to have dinner with these other people, but I'd be happy to come by earlier in the day.
Yeah, yeah. So you're trying to set up some...
And you're an adult, right? I mean, so you're trying to set up some...
Some preferences. And you weren't doing this to punish her.
You just genuinely wanted to spend dinner with your friends.
So you're trying to set up some reasonable boundaries.
And you get this hysteria?
Is that an unfair word?
This aggression of like, if you can't come to dinner, you're destroying the family.
You're not part of the family.
Is that sort of how it went?
Oh my god, yeah.
And eventually it just turned into a yell fest.
She just went in my parents' room and just started screaming at my dad.
Um, eventually like said, okay, I'm leaving, you know, and it was a huge long scream, just scream fest.
I'd never heard anything like it from my parents before.
Well, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but did, um, was it because like you didn't, you didn't give in, is that right?
Like you, you held you? No.
Yeah. I, I didn't, I didn't give in.
Isn't that why it got so exaggerated?
Yeah. That's, yeah, that's, that's definitely why.
Cause you know, she, she may try if she's a bully and it sounds like she's pretty aggressive, right?
But You know, they'll try various strategies and various tactics to get what they want, right?
Absolutely. Like, I want you to come to dinner, and I mean, certain people, they don't know how to do it in a positive way.
They don't know how to win you over to come to dinner.
So all they can do is threaten and bully and guilt.
Like, negative, right? Negative economics.
And so they try all these different strategies, and it will continue to escalate until they feel that they're actually not going to get what they want.
Definitely. And then they find it unbearable and they either will lash out or leave in a very aggressive way.
And I guess your mom left and asked your dad to lash out in that way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
And of course she came back the next day and it was all, it was back to normal, everything's all right, happy-dappy.
Like nothing happened, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was like an episode of The Twilight Zone or something.
Sure. And just the way my dad defended her just shocked me.
Because I thought, you know, if there's going to be any time that I can get through to him, this is it, you know.
This is it. And what was your dad's defense about this shocking behavior?
Appalling behavior. Sorry to laugh.
Sorry to laugh. No, no, but it's appalling behavior.
Look, don't get me wrong.
I understand what you mean about it being funny.
Because it's like a cartoon character.
It wasn't funny at this point. It's ridiculous, and I can completely understand how there's humor in what she was doing, because it's ludicrous.
It's like watching some really over-the-top comedy routine.
Yeah. And it really wasn't funny at this point when I was talking to my dad, because I was so hurt when he started saying, you know, she's my wife.
I mean, they're Christians, so they can't really get divorced, or they can, but I mean, they would be looked down upon from all their friends, because all their friends are in the church.
And I was bawling in tears and just completely devastated.
I thought, you know, I can talk to him now.
Maybe he'll be able to see, you know, if there's any hope at all, this would be a great Opportunity to have an honest conversation with them and show them what it's like to have somebody who actually cares about your feelings, you know?
And instead of somebody just yelling like a banshee at you and telling you to hit your kid, you know?
And no, he said I had to get out and he just...
I mean, I cried more.
I just got more escalatingly scared and shocked.
I'm so sorry.
God, what a... What a terrible day.
What an absolutely terrible day.
And what a profound revelation about the family dynamics.
And in my opinion, it's obviously shocking and appalling that both your parents would behave in this way.
But the real problem to me is not that people act badly.
I'm not saying that you or I would do this, but I think we can all get a couple of get-out-of-jail-free cards if we just lose it or go nuts or whatever.
But it's what happens afterwards, right?
And the real shock is the next day, like, nothing happened.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, it's not like somebody sits there and says, oh, man, did I ever lose it yesterday?
Oh, my God. I'm so sorry.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know what the hell was going on.
I'm sorry. Like, I really apologize.
That, I think... I think that's okay.
I mean, I wouldn't want a whole lot of those in any of my relationships.
But if somebody really did say, holy crap, did I ever go off the deep end yesterday?
And I don't know why.
And let's talk about it. How are you feeling?
I'm so sorry, blah, blah, blah. But it's this bizarre, surreal, nothing happened bit that to me is worse than the blow up.
But to me, again, I don't want to sort of put my feelings onto you.
But that's the part that is the really, if I can say it's the nail in the coffin, is the denial, not even so much the explosion.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Like, the next day I talked to my mom at one point and I even said, you know, you said, you yelled at my dad that he should hit me.
And she completely denied it.
She said she didn't recall it.
She didn't remember it. And, oh, I wanted to throw up, you know.
Yeah, because the only alternative is to take ownership and take responsibility for her actions and actually apologize or get help.
Right? Which she clearly doesn't want to do if she's going to simply deny that she said it.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That's not the kind of thing you're going to forget.
And it's probably not the kind of thing that she's going to forget either.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm so sorry. What an absolutely horrendous two days.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Like that whole night, I went to my friend's house, the same friends, and the whole night I just felt really quiet and really, you know, just...
Just terrible. Right.
And the next day I suggested to my parents or to my mom that I go to therapy with her but then she never really wanted to and then now I really don't want to because now that I think about it if she's willing to lie the next day about not hitting me then there's no way we can make any progress in a therapy session.
Yeah, I mean, I'm just an amateur, but it doesn't sound to me like she has the, she's not, as they say, she's not a good candidate for self-knowledge, right?
I mean, so, but tell me about what you were feeling when you were at your friend's place, because I guess it was Thanksgiving for them, so you didn't necessarily want to lay all this on their family, is that right?
Oh, no, no, sorry, this wasn't Thanksgiving.
Oh, oh. Okay, sorry.
This was the weekend before Thanksgiving.
So you went over to your friend's place.
Did you talk about what happened with your family?
Was it another kind of social engagement?
We talked a lot about it the whole night.
I think I cried a few times.
We're all really great.
It's amazing that I could have the conversations I do with these guys.
That relieved a lot of stress, but I was still not myself.
I was really quiet.
I didn't want to Play video games.
Or you were more yourself.
You were processing some kind of...
This is not something that just came out of nowhere.
Obviously this has a deep history within your family.
This kind of behavior doesn't come out of nowhere unless your mom got hit by a brick or by lightning or something.
It has a complete personality change.
So in a sense, accepting this level of aggression within your family was something very close to your experience In the past, which obviously, and for a very sensible reason, you had suppressed your knowledge of, right?
Otherwise, you would have gone to try and figure this stuff out.
So, this sort of quietly processing information that you've obviously had for many, many years is actually, I think, close to your true experience of your family, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, yeah. And, like, I can't ever remember my dad yelling, but I can remember my mom yelling mostly behind closed doors.
Any sort of argument would happen behind closed doors, so I didn't really see it full on this time.
You mean an argument between your parents?
Yeah. What about your mom's interactions with you?
I remember that they were very cold and kind of do it my way, but I don't...
Other than recently, I don't really remember any scream fests.
I really don't. And maybe I'm just suppressing that.
Well, how were you, if it's the appropriate phrase, how were you disciplined when you were a kid?
I remember I was spanked about six times, but that stopped really quick.
Because I laughed during one of the spankings.
I guess I never took it seriously, so they just stopped.
And who spanked you? My dad.
I think it was always my mom's...
Instigation.
Yeah, exactly. And what else?
A lot of, oh, you're hurting your mother kind of attitude.
Yeah. So girls?
Yeah. A lot of...
I'm trying to remember because high school was the biggest one for me because I was half homeschooled.
By which parent? My mother.
You were half homeschooled?
It was half online.
It was actually a pretty cool school if there were good parenting involved.
It was half online, or I guess one-third online, one-third in classroom, and one-third homeschooled.
So it was a neat course, but unfortunately I had my mom as a teacher for a good portion of it.
And you said that was high school?
Yeah. And why were you homeschooled?
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I'm just curious.
Well, the reasoning was because I got bad grades in public school, which is where I was in for junior high.
I was in a Christian elementary school up until junior high.
All right. And why do you think you got bad grades in that school?
I mean, obviously very intelligent, so I'm just sort of curious.
Well, I never really took an interest in anything until after I graduated high school.
In no form of education, I really didn't care.
I really just...
And I can see why, because I mean, I hated doing homework.
I hated... If this was involved with learning, I didn't want to learn anything, you know.
And sorry, you said your parents were Christians, and what was your attitude towards religion around junior high?
Around junior high?
I guess I was the kind of...
Oh, around junior high.
Oh, man.
I'm trying to remember specifically.
Approximately is fine. I mean, it doesn't have to be too specific.
I was just going to church.
I was just starting to go to church at that point.
So my parents hadn't really gone to church up until that point.
Sorry, they weren't Christian until you went to your junior high?
No, they were Christian.
They just never really went to church.
And so I started going around junior high.
Sorry, you and your parents started going?
Yeah, yeah. And why did they start going?
Well, they say it was because I kept asking them, like, why don't we go to church, you know, if we're Christians, which would make sense, you know.
Do you remember asking that?
I think I do, yeah.
I remember once.
I do remember that once.
Okay, so instead of telling you the truth, they just started taking you to church, whatever that truth was.
Yeah. Well, I know the truth now because my dad didn't want to, my dad liked to sleep in because he worked all the time and You know, really, I mean, the same reason I didn't want to go to church later, but I had to, you know.
Right. Now, what was your relationship to God at that time?
Because, I mean, you know, going to church is one thing, but did you, like, was Jesus on the cross for you?
I mean, what was your relationship to that?
I was really into Jesus.
He was a cool guy. I really...
At junior high, I was still kind of learning about it.
I was always a class clownish guy, but in high school, I really wanted to be a youth pastor, and I was really working my way towards being a youth pastor.
I was definitely dedicated.
I really like children.
I've always been great with children, and I thought, you know, if this is the most important thing, we might as well teach it to kids, right?
Sure. Thank the fake God I found this.
Right. And so you were somewhat apathetic in junior high.
You didn't really care about the courses.
But you said that you were quite into religion at that time.
So was that a positive thing for you?
Like you cared about Jesus and becoming a youth pastor, or was that later?
The youth pastor was later, but I cared about Jesus to the extent that I could have a lot of friends in church and at school because I could hang out with the Christian kids.
And it was, I mean, it was always, I always knew it was a real social gathering.
Like, I always knew that I was going to that church because of the social aspect.
But I really wanted to be, the youth pastor thing was completely different.
It was like, well, if I become a youth pastor, then it's okay that I don't really feel too strongly about going to church, you know?
It was kind of a, I guess...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For me not to...
I mean, I hated Sunday morning church.
Hated it, hated it, hated it.
Now, is that from the beginning when you were first taken, or did that grow over time?
Oh, that was right away.
It was boring, and it was long, and it was...
It seems almost designed to put people to sleep, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Might as well have beds instead of pews, you know?
Oh, absolutely, yeah, for sure.
And just...
Yeah, but I really never took it too seriously until I started working with an Iwana group, which is like an after-school youth group for littler kids that can do Bible verses and stuff.
And I was like kids, so I was like, yeah, this is supposed to be my calling, you know?
And did you want to be homeschooled?
Did you want to leave your junior high school?
Um... I can't really remember.
You can't remember?
You drugged? What do you mean you can't remember whether you wanted to stay in school or not?
I mean, you were two, right?
This is what, like 13 or 14 years old?
I remember that I didn't care.
I mean, that's the only thing that I really remember is that I didn't care either way.
I mean, my dad is a no-preference man.
He has no preferences. Oh, he certainly has preferences.
Are you crazy? You just finished telling me about all his preferences.
Appease my wife at any cost.
Throw my kid out if he causes problems.
You know, have nobody get upset.
And if they do, find the weakest person to make them suffer in order to appease the more powerful person.
I mean, it sounds like he's got a whole lot of preferences.
Definitely, definitely. I guess when I say that, I guess...
You mean with regards to your mom?
He doesn't express preferences because he knows exactly what's going to happen.
He doesn't express preferences. That's a good... Yeah, he doesn't tend to...
Because he heard you express a preference like I'd rather go to...
Lunch with you and dinner with other people, there's you expressing a preference, and he knows exactly what's going to happen, right?
Yeah, yeah. He appeases your mom.
That's very different from saying he doesn't have preferences.
That's true, true. Just to be precise, right?
Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely.
So what does it mean when you say, I didn't care whether I was homeschooled or not?
I mean, that's an important thing.
I'm not criticizing. It's just an important thing to not have preferences about, right?
That's a huge thing. To be honest, I really only cared about the social aspect at the time.
So then if you cared about the social aspect, you were certainly going to lose some of that by being homeschooled, right?
Yeah. So did you then have a preference to not be homeschooled because you wanted the social stuff?
I mean, you'd be taken away from your friends and all, right?
I mean, you've got friends at school, you've got clubs, you've got hobbies, you've got a locker, you've got a lunch group you've got, right?
And that's all going away when you become homeschooled, for the most part, right?
Yeah, but I've never really treated any of that with any significant importance.
Like, I've never really had friends until recently.
I've really only had...
I mean, I would call them friends, but it's like if they went out of my life, then I would just never speak to them again.
I just never really felt a connection with anybody until recently.
Okay, so for you, being taken away from the, I guess, quote, friends that you had at school wasn't that big a deal?
No, no. It was like, okay, well, now I'll get to meet a new group of people.
Maybe they'll be nicer or cooler.
It wasn't that I didn't like the other friends, but I would rather...
Just meet other people.
So I guess I did have a preference, but it was just a very light preference because I knew I didn't have a choice either way anyway.
Okay, you tell me then about a time when you were a kid, when you had a preference and expressed it within your family environment.
Well, all the times I didn't want to go to church...
And how did that look out for you?
Oh yeah, I had to go to church.
Okay, so when was the time that you had a preference The only one I can really think of that stands out is that I begged my parents that we were on the East Coast vacationing and I begged my parents to go to New York for a couple of days because we were going to all the boring states and I begged them to go and we ended up going for two days and it was the best Best time I ever had in any other state.
And was that, like you expressed the preference, was it a big battle?
Did you just wear them down?
I mean, how did it happen? It was like a wearing down, but at the end they were just like, okay.
You know, they didn't want to make it seem like it was a wearing down kind of process.
Okay, because I mean, wearing your parents down is not quite the same as expressing a preference to having to listen to with respect, right?
That's true. I mean, I'm not sort of trying to say that it was bad for them to say, let's go to New York.
I mean, obviously that was good for you, but that's not quite the same.
Like, just nagging people is not quite the same as having a discussion, right?
Definitely. You know, to be honest, I can't think of any.
And I think that's important.
Oh, definitely. Definitely.
So, anyway, go on.
Absolutely. And I've noticed in my life that I, until recently, I've had a very difficult time vocal...
Vocalizing a preference, like saying, you know, this is how I feel.
I usually say, oh, I don't care as long as everybody's happy, you know, or whatever, one of those lines.
And until recently, now I'm just Opinion Fest 2009, you know.
Which is great, and I tend to be very respectful about my opinions, but I've just had this attitude that having an opinion is bad, Don't do it.
And that's been something I've really had to overcome lately.
Yeah, and I mean, it sounds very wise, given your environment.
Yeah, I would say so.
I mean, it was tough enough to do what you did at your age if you did it when you were 13.
I mean, imagine how tough that would be to see the nature of your family at that age when you had a long way still to go.
I don't know how I would have done it.
Well, you wouldn't have been able to do it, which is why you didn't do it, because we're kind of wise that way, I think, we all thought.
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's excellent.
That's an excellent point. I remember specifically that when I was younger, I would just tell my parents everything about every sin I did or whatever.
I would just tell them about it.
Every sin you did when you were a kid?
Yeah, quote-unquote sin.
I mean, like playing a video game that had a bad word and, you know, little stuff.
Oh my god. I know, I know.
No, I know. Look, I understand.
I understand. I mean, I don't want my daughter cussing up a storm, but, I mean, what Christianity invents as sin for children to me is completely ridiculous.
Yeah. I mean, it was a game about a squirrel, you know?
It wasn't even bad.
And I didn't even like the game, so I stopped playing it.
But then I just felt so guilty.
I remember specifically, I woke up at, I don't know what time, but I had already been asleep and I just was overridden with guilt.
And I went into my parents and I was just like, oh, I'm sorry.
I played this video game that you rented for me without knowing it was...
Rated M for mature, you know.
They rented it and they couldn't even read the parental label, you know.
And what was the response of your parents when you confessed to this genocidal crime?
Oh, it's good that you told us.
We're not going to get you in too much trouble.
I would always avoid trouble by just saying it and admitting to being wrong.
Sure. Because again, based on what happened a couple of weeks ago, you could see what happens when you Try to express a relatively mild preference.
You can see the results, right?
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Wow. Definitely.
I mean, that's what I mean when I say like you bore yourself because you're actually expressing a preference in the face of an environment where it sounds like expressing a preference was functionally impossible because your mother would become hysterical and your father would sell you out.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Definitely. Right.
And that's how it always was. My father was definitely the would sell me out.
You know, they would have this rule where I just wanted...
I couldn't remember any specific things that I wanted to tell, but it was like I felt bad about something and I wanted to tell one of the parents and at the end of the conversation they would say, well, I have to tell your father about this tonight or I have to tell your mother about this tonight.
And I hated that.
Hated that. So what's going to happen now?
Well, I guess now...
Lately I've been feeling kind of a...
It's been kind of a roller coaster, which I think is kind of healthy in some ways instead of just a sheer panic 100% of the time.
But I've been really worried about finances and what I'm going to do in the immediate future and also in the later future in regards to career or I know I want to do something in philosophy.
I haven't decided what specifically yet, but I want to make a podcast.
I want to write books. I want to do something.
I'm smart. I can do it.
I'm worried about money, though.
There's a big thing in my family with money.
My dad has always been, you have to work hard, you know?
I'm trying to think of the best way to describe it.
Working was a very big thing in my family.
If you don't work, you're not a man.
Everybody has to work.
With the job I have now, when I told my dad about it, it was not good enough.
You have to get a second job.
And now I think I do.
Sometimes I feel a lot of anxiety.
I have to find another job.
I have to save a lot more money.
I have to... It's really confusing.
If you wouldn't mind, maybe some questions would be better because I'm having a very difficult time pinpointing it.
Sure, sure. Do you mean questions around the issues of finances or other things going forward?
Yeah, yeah. Finances, definitely.
So the finances, what is it that you wanted, like if you had all the money in the world, what is it that you would want to do?
Oh, absolutely.
I guess I'd like to be a jack of all trades.
I'd like to write music. I'd like to write books.
I'd like to do podcasts.
I'd like to do a lot of different things that can bring in people from a lot of different directions and I can show my ideas and make money off of Selling books or selling albums or donations, whatever it is, just doing something that I'm really passionate about, and I'm very passionate about philosophy, extremely.
That's the main notch.
And what is preventing you from doing those things now?
I'm not saying you should be doing them, I'm just curious if there is anything that is preventing you.
Well, I've been mulling around, I've been writing music, But at a very slow rate, I guess...
I've been feeling it's more important to...
Well, as far as the writing, I have been doing little things, but nothing enough to make money yet.
Like, I've been writing some poetry.
I posted one on the FDR. I've been writing some music.
I've been thinking of ideas for novels.
I never really had any experience writing.
But I guess I just want to know where to start.
I really...
Well, yeah, you do.
I mean, you just... I mean, yeah, I could just...
I could easily just... And this is not a criticism, right?
We're just looking at the empirical facts.
You say, well, I would like to do these things, and if there's nothing preventing you fundamentally from doing them now, and I don't mean that it's easy, right?
But if there's nothing fundamentally from stopping you, then you may not be right about what it is that you want to do.
You may be. You may be.
I'm just saying, you know, when I get confused about things, I just go back to the evidence, right?
So I think I want to do this.
Well, I'm actually doing it.
Like, you know, when I was younger, I was like, oh, I want to be an actor.
And then I would come home from theater school and I would write plays.
Right? And so I'd be like, well, okay, so if I want to be an actor, why am I not practicing scenes or learning accents or sword fighting or whatever, how to ride a horse and all that kind of nonsense, which is all useful for an actor?
Why am I coming home? Well, the empirical fact is that I prefer writing to acting.
I mean, that's just because that's what I'm actually doing, right?
So if you have these dreams, and I think there's nothing wrong with them, and you may be right, but...
If you're not doing them right now, it means that they're lower priority than something else.
Well, I am doing them just to not as high of an extent as I'd like to, and I've been spending a lot of time...
No, you're doing them exactly to the extent that you'd like to, right?
Because there's no like to other than what you're doing, right?
Tricky, tricky. Yeah, it's true though, right?
No, definitely, definitely. It makes 100% sense.
I mean, we can learn about ourselves Like an anthropologist, right?
By saying, well, if I was just an alien beamed into this body, how would I know about myself?
Well, I would look at what I was doing and saying, well, I guess I'm doing this, so I like doing this.
Well, I'm not doing that, so I don't like doing that, right?
We can learn about ourselves almost like a third-party anthropologist, and I think that reveals quite a lot about our true desires or preferences rather than the stuff that we say to ourselves or to other people.
Huh. Hmm.
Well, I mean, I have been doing these things not as much as I thought I would.
No, not as much as you think you should.
Yeah, okay. But thinking you should is not the same as wanting to do something, right?
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
In fact, it's quite the opposite, right? That which we think we should do, we almost always resist doing.
Because you're like, well, it would be good for the world or good for, you know, I want to show my passion for philosophy and help and fix the world and so on.
But that's kind of like a should, like a destination, like a goal, like an ideal, rather than what is it that I, as an individual, outside of the obligations or ought to or should, want to do with my life in the short run or the long run.
Right? But I wouldn't...
Well, I definitely want to do philosophy.
I guess I'm having trouble...
Recently, I've been doing a lot of research, watching a lot more documentaries and reading and audiobooks and stuff like that, because I couldn't...
Man, you got me.
Yeah, listen, and you may be entirely right in the long run about what it is that you want to do.
But I would make sure that you work organically from the inside out, rather than thinking, it would be best for me to do this.
It would be the most useful thing for me to do this, or this is what I should be doing, because whatever, right?
I didn't mean to imply that.
I just really want to.
I really, really want to.
Well, except, empirically, you don't.
Again, I'm giving you, hopefully, some freedom here, right?
They forget the shoulds.
Let me start with what I'm actually doing.
What are my values at the moment?
Now, what I would say is that at the moment, my friend, what you are doing is trying to figure out what the fuck is going on with your family.
Now that's philosophy.
Forget writing, forget books, forget podcasting.
Your philosophy is, how the hell can I live my values in this family environment?
Is it possible? Can it be done?
And if so, how?
And if not, what the hell am I going to do?
That's philosophy for you.
It's not this abstract thing that's communicated to other people.
Fundamentally, it's about the values that you're going to bring to bear in your own life and how the hell that can be possible or not.
And that's what you're really doing right now and that's why You stood up to your mom, and that's why you're processing what happened with your dad, and that's why you wanted this call.
Because, like, fuck philosophy is something that you write down.
Philosophy is something that you live in your life with your relationships.
You're doing it with your friends, and you're now also doing it with your family.
And you're basically saying, I've had enough of being Mr.
Plasticine, of being Mr.
Gossamer Wing, of being Mr.
Compliance. I've had enough of appeasement, because I can't respect myself if I'm appeasing for the sake of Fear of a historical bully.
I'm not going to stay in this box called empty appeasement that's been modeled to me by my dad and inflicted upon me by my mom.
I am going to express preferences.
I'm going to stand my ground.
I'm going to be a human being with preferences and feelings in this relationship.
I hope that this relationship can handle it.
If this relationship cannot handle it, I've got a bucket load of worms to process.
So that to me, that is philosophy.
The books, the podcasts, whatever, who cares?
Down the road if you want, right?
But the philosophy that you're doing is authenticity and honesty within your relationships.
And that to me is real philosophy.
The other stuff is like, you know, like you could be a great chef if you put together fantastic meals from raw ingredients.
Now, you can be a great chef who writes down I think?
Right? So I would say, you know, you're making meals, you're not writing a cookbook, and you're talking about writing a cookbook, and I'm saying, no, no, no, you're armed deep in creating a new meal here, calls, what happens if I bring my actual self to all of my relationships?
And that, to me, is real philosophy.
Yeah, yeah, and I mean, I've been going through this process for a while, and really the only reason that I still feel a connection to my parents is because Well, what I said to my friend, one of the honest friends, I said I treat my family like I treat my state.
I try not to engage with them, but if I'm in an emergency situation, I'll give them a call.
And I guess that's, like, if I desperately need money for food, I'll give them a call.
But, like, other than that, I've just been, I don't talk to them on the phone unless I Unless they call me, which is never...
Or if I... Oh man, I just want to tell you, it completely sucks to be in a situation.
I mean, you're a young man, you're starting out, you need guidance, you need support, you need finances, you need help, you need wisdom, you need experience, you need conversations with caring and loving parents.
I mean, it really sucks to have to go out You know, naked and alone into the cold world, so to speak.
I mean, if that's what you do, you can do it and you can, but so what?
Like, we can also survive overnight in a fucking snowbank.
That doesn't mean that we throw ourselves out of the car in winter, right?
We can do it, but it really sucks that we have to.
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's all I really, like, that's what I, that's what I wanted so much from that conversation with my dad after the car broke down, just like, I just wanted to hear for the first time from him.
Okay, I can see you're having some hard times.
Let's talk about it. Instead of just assuming that he knows the answers.
You were upset not because it was your car that had broken down, right?
Yeah. It was your family that had broken down.
Yeah. The car is just a metaphor.
It's a stand-in, right? Yeah.
Because straight after your car breaking down, you went and saw how broken your relationship with your father was.
Oh, and that was right after.
Like, I walked over there.
Right. And you cried because something had broken down, and you knew that deep down, but you needed the confirmation by going to talk to your dad, right?
You needed to make that conscious, that which had been unconscious for so long, which is to say this family relationship doesn't work if I can't express a preference without...
Hysteria and threats of attack and beatings and whatever, right?
I mean, that's clearly not something that's sustainable.
You can't be in a relationship, in my opinion, right?
You can't virtuously be in a relationship where even expressing a relatively mild preference causes hysteria and calls for someone to beat you up.
I mean, that's clearly not healthy, right?
Yeah, yeah. And I even remember thinking, well, what would my reaction have been if this would have happened at my friend's house?
Yeah, like some friend says, what, you're not coming over for lunch?
I'm going to get a friend of mine to beat you up.
It'd be like, are you crazy?
What are you, four years old?
Yeah. Well, I was referring specifically to the car.
But, like, if the car had broken down at my friend's house, I wouldn't have had that reaction.
I can almost...
Yeah, you'd have been, like, exasperated or whatever, but it wouldn't be that fundamental despair because it's about other things.
Yeah, I have to communicate with my dad, and I know I can't.
Yeah. Yeah, no, and I say I had...
You know, a similar sort of thing where something wasn't working in my life and I got so completely upset, completely out of proportion to that little stupid thing that wasn't working.
It was a computer or something. And then I went straight over to talk to my brother.
Because that's what it was really about, right?
And it's all confirmed there.
I mean, we have these kind of standards.
And what we do right afterwards is what we're really upset about.
And of course, the car is my grandma's car and it's...
It's a family thing.
So it's...
I mean, that... It's completely dependent on the family.
If they choose to take it away any day, they can.
So I'm fighting desperately to...
That's why I don't want to cut off communication completely with my parents because I'm just not financially stable right now.
I think I'm getting there.
I can definitely see a lot of progress.
And a car that's broken down is not responsive to your preferences, right?
Can you say that again?
Well, a car that has just broken down is no longer responsive to your preferences, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's, I think, a similar thing to what was going on with your family.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Being in the driver's seat is a metaphor for having some control in a situation, right?
Yeah. Having some effect, having some efficacy in a situation.
And when the car breaks down, we're helpless.
We're not in the driver's seat, or we are, but nothing works.
Nothing can be. Our will can't affect the environment.
When a car breaks down, that again sounds similar to what was going on with your family.
Yeah, I didn't even think of that.
That's great. Man.
And I had another interaction which was very similar with an ex-girlfriend.
She texted me out of the blue and eventually I was like...
I was trying to be as nice as possible but honest because I know how honesty looks to other people and I just wanted to know.
I was just like, I'm just curious but...
Like, why did you text me?
And then I just get this thing back that's just like, you fucking moron, how dare you?
I'm just trying to be nice to you, trying to have a conversation, trying to be friends.
I'm just like, wow, this is what I get when I have honesty.
Like, I try to be honest with you.
And not talking to her again anytime soon.
Right, right. Yeah, it's very, very volatile.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So... Yeah, I mean, as far as the finances go, I mean...
It's a tough call.
I mean, as you know, probably, I mean, I started all of this stuff when I was 15, which is not anything that I would wish on anyone.
It certainly is possible, though it's not easy.
And it does require some support networks, and it sounds like you have some great friends, which is a real joy to be treasured.
Oh, I can't even...
I can't believe it.
Sometimes it's completely different.
When I was staying with them, they were having a really hard time expressing preference for things like me doing the dishes and things like that so there was twice where we had these kind of built up conversations where they were harboring resentment and they would like have a sit down with me later and then we worked it out completely and now we worked out completely that it's better for both of us if they just say at the moment you know hey would you mind doing some dishes I really feel like you're not picking your weight you know And it was great.
Ever since we had that conversation, it was absolutely fantastic and easy.
And we were just completely honest about it.
We had a great conversation.
And we've been doing that as much as possible, trying to really do as much RTR as possible.
And I had about a year head start of them.
But I can't even believe it.
It's like nothing I've ever experienced before.
Right, right. And again, those kinds of changes...
Highlights the deficiencies within other relationships, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, definitely. Absolutely.
Right. Well, I mean, in my opinion, I mean, it sounds to me like you're doing all the right stuff.
Like, I mean, and you should...
God, I wish I was as smart as you when I was your age, right?
I mean, it seems to me like you're doing all the right stuff.
I mean, you're leaving the door open with your parents if they can process that their behavior is...
Pretty outrageous, to say the least.
You're leaving the door open.
You're exploring higher quality relationships.
You are examining and exploring yourself.
I mean, I always recommend therapy, but I know that financial circumstances are a challenge right now, but it's something to keep in mind.
Yeah, I've been treating my friends as therapists.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that has some benefits and drawbacks, right, to be aware of it.
But there's lots of stuff that you can do, like journaling and talking about or thinking about dreams and so on.
Oh, yeah. And so it sounds to me like you're doing...
Now, you haven't mentioned anything about further schooling or education, and I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.
Well, I never...
I really struggled through high school.
I really didn't like it at all.
With your mom as your teacher, right?
Yeah. And I really don't know if I would feel comfortable in a college course.
And plus the finances, I couldn't even think of it now.
Maybe in the future I'll think of it.
Sorry, why can't you think of it now?
Because I don't think I can afford it.
But that's not necessarily how college has to work, right?
Isn't it? No, I mean, again, I think you're in the States, right?
But there are scholarships.
And again, I know you didn't do that great in high school or whatever.
But, you know, there are scholarships.
There's bursaries.
There's loans. I mean, you can just call up a university that you may be interested in.
And I think university has some real benefits.
It's totally different than high school.
Obviously totally different than your high school.
It's totally different than school.
Because you do like classes for like 10 or 15 hours a week.
And the rest is just study and write and read and do great stuff.
So, I mean, there's some frustrations, you know, status professors and all that.
But that's, you know, no matter where you go, that's going to be the case.
But there are some real benefits to university.
Some structured and disciplined learning.
And you get to... Make arguments and have them critiqued and you get to do a lot of fun hobbies and you sound like you'd be pretty interested in stuff like debating club, which I think is pretty essential to somebody who's interested in philosophy.
So there's lots of good stuff that can come out of a college education, even if you don't go all the way through to the degree.
But I wouldn't judge college by any kind of education that you had before, because it's a totally different animal, at least in my experience.
And I never went to a U.S. university, so I may be talking out of my ass.
Certainly in Canada, it was very different.
And there's ways to get the money to do it, which, you know, you go to a state college, they're going to have loans.
You may be able to get some money from the government to go to school.
And that can be very, very helpful.
So I wouldn't necessarily write it off based on financial causes or financial reasons.
There's lots of avenues to explore to get to school.
And you may graduate with some debt.
I know that I did. But, you know, eh.
You know, who cares, right? It's the price of a car.
How many cars are you going to buy over the course of your lifetime?
It's not really that big a deal.
And of course, you can also have a job during college.
You have a couple of months in the summer where you can work two or three jobs if you want to make extra money to pay for it if you don't want to work during the school year.
But there's lots of options and ways to approach getting into a college even if you're kind of stone broke.
And that may be something that would be worth exploring.
Huh. I've always kind of had a negative outlook on college.
Yeah. I mean, to me, the best time I ever had in school was doing my master's because I had almost no classes.
I had a desk, my own little desk at the library, and I could just go and read, you know, dawn till dusk and write and think.
And I had some pretty good conversations with some good friends at college.
Yeah. I think that it's fantastic because you also meet a bunch of people who are economists or studying economics.
They're studying biology. Lots of people that you can cross-pollinate ideas from.
Like a lot of my philosophy was influenced by a guy I had as a roommate who was a really great biologist.
So of course this is one of the reasons why some of my biological stuff is a little bit more up to scratch than most.
And so you get a lot of cross-pollination.
There's some great parties.
That I can avoid.
Well, or not.
It depends. If you find people that are fun to hang out with where they're interested, curious, and challenging, it can be worthwhile.
But I wouldn't write it off as an option and as a possibility.
You can go on a campus tour.
They probably have one starting in January.
And you won't have to pay for it.
You just go over it, take a tour of the campus.
Ask about how many hours a week are you in class, what are the expectations and so on.
Just go do a tour of some local university and then say, listen, I'd like to make an appointment with the financial aid specialist and just sit down and say, you know, here's my fucking life.
How can you help me if that's something that you're interested in?
This is the mess that I'm in and yet I still want to pursue higher education.
And, you know, what's possible that's available for me to do?
And you may be surprised that it may become a lot more feasible than you think.
It's amazing that you say that, because, like, the last three days, I've been really...
I've been looking for alternative ways to get into the field of psychology.
Because I've always just had a negative outlook on college.
And, of course, neither of my parents went to college.
Right. Wow, I didn't even make that connection until just now.
I've always had a negative outlook on it, but I've been looking, just checking other states to see if they have to get a permit there to be a psychologist or whatever.
Just trying to find alternative methods.
But I mean, I and I thought about I even thought that I would reconsider it in the future.
But I didn't even think of think of doing some sort of financial aid.
I mean, I know that the state tuition, state college tuitions are pretty relatively low.
It's not like Harvard or whatever.
Right.
And you can live like so ridiculously cheaply when you're a student.
I mean, I had this is going back a ways.
Right.
But I mean, I I lived I was like one of five or six people living in a house.
for a whole year, I shared a room with a guy.
Like it was two of us in the same room.
It was like the freaking army or something, right?
Oh yeah, I'm living on a couch right now.
Yeah, you're living on a couch and you can do a lot of that kind of stuff.
You may be able to get into residence where you get, you know, a tiny little room and board and showers and all that kind of stuff.
I know a guy, the guy who was a biologist, he was so broke, he lived in a school bus.
He did. He lived in a school bus that had been parked in the back of a parking lot and that was open and nobody cared.
The wheels, the tires were off and it was just in the back.
And he would shower at the gym and he would get his meals in the cafeteria and he just basically slept in the school bus and studied in the library.
I mean, you could do some crazy shit to get through school.
I mean, I worked a couple of jobs.
I lived in You know, I was paying like 250 bucks a month in rent because I had one tiny room in the back of a house and I biked everywhere.
I didn't have any kind of car or even a bus pass.
I mean, I just biked everywhere. There's some, you know, ramen noodles and whatever it is that you can eat.
I like those ramen noodles.
Yeah, I mean, so if you've got a taste for that already, you get free, you know, you get a free gym, you get free entertainment.
You know, there was a place when I went to school, to college in Montreal.
You get to get breakfast for a buck.
You got two eggs, toast and coffee for a buck.
And, you know, and it was bottomless coffee.
You have a couple of those and you're okay through to mid-afternoon because you're kind of buzzed, right?
So, you know, buy a loaf of bread and just mow your way through it over time.
There's lots of things that you can do that can really keep your costs low.
And it's kind of like an adventure.
You know, you're like a hobo.
That's how I've been looking at it now.
That's how I've been looking at it kind of now because I have been doing that to a large extent.
Like, really...
Finding ways to not spend any money for as long as possible.
And if you're going to be doing sucky jobs and you're going to be living like a hobo, why not come out of it with a piece of paper that's worth something?
Man, my friends are going to be pissed because I totally talked them through dropping out of college.
Well, here you get to do one of the most mature things in the world, which is to walk up to your friends and say, I was wrong.
Right.
Because that's what your mom didn't do.
Right.
So you can learn from her example and say, well, I'm going to do the opposite and say, maybe I was wrong.
I mean, if you want to be a psychologist, I mean, there's lots of ways to do it.
Right.
I mean, you can go through all the way through to a PhD.
You can be a psychotherapist with less time or you can just call yourself a therapist if you want, though I think that's a little more risky and you don't need any credentials.
But I think that if I were you, I would try a year of college and see what it's like.
I mean, the alternatives Look, when there's a recession on, it's good to be in school.
You know, there are no good jobs out there anyway, at least not for someone of your age and experience.
So my suggestion would be, and everywhere that you want to go, you know, philosophy or psychology or wherever it is you want to go, all of those destinations are creatively enhanced.
And some are only really possible with I would go and say, well, I'm going to throw myself at school for a year.
You could even start in January if you can find some school that's going to throw you some money and give you a semester.
See what it's like.
See what the environment is like.
And I would throw yourself into a full-tilt boogie.
Read all the course materials and get lists of the course materials.
There may be students there when you go for a tour that will tell you what it's like and what they like and what they don't like and you can get a sense or a flavour of the place.
But you can do it.
You're not the only person who's had to bust their way through college and have to beg for money from various people.
That's a time-honored tradition of self-sustainability when it comes to pursuing that kind of stuff.
And I will tell you this, it's the last thing I'll sort of lecture you about, is that when you're paying your own way to go through college, I mean, assuming that you can't get money from your parents, maybe you can, maybe you can't, that's obviously up in the air, but if you can't, You will extract every last bit of value that you can out of that college.
You know, when mom and dad pay for it, it's like, you know, I'll do the reading, I'll go to classes, but, you know, you don't really take it seriously.
But when you're getting into debt for it, you're taking money for it, you're working two jobs to be there, then you're seriously there to learn.
And that doesn't mean not having fun, but you will get more value out of college when you are self-funded through whatever means you can than people, you know, the trustafarians who get their way paid.
I remember I had a girl I was going out with in my third year.
I started going out with her in my third year.
This is just when we were starting to go out.
It was like the third or fourth week of school and she invited me to go to a disco.
And I said, no, no, I'm starting to work on a paper.
And we'd only been assigned one paper and it wasn't due for two months.
But I really wanted to get started on it because I was really excited to do this paper.
And she was there and her parents were paying for everything, right?
And she was like, what are you talking about?
It's not done for, it's not, you know, you don't need to do it for another two months.
It's like, but I really want to do this paper.
And because I was paying for it and I was getting into debt and I was like, I really want to get as much as I can.
And that's why I handed in voluntary paper.
I just, especially in my philosophy classes, I just kept handing in papers.
And they're like, but we didn't assign anything.
It's like, no, no, no, this is what I think of Aristotle's metaphysics.
I really would like you to tell me where I'm right and where I'm wrong.
I want to get as much as I can out of this experience because I know what it's costing me, and so I want to extract every last bit of value.
I would drive my professors nuts.
I'd go to, you know, their open office hours.
Nobody ever showed up. I'd show up and sit there and talk to them for two hours.
Right? So I'd put in voluntary papers.
I would bring up debates with people in other...
Other fields, and I just, I drunk up as much as possible in that environment, and you don't really get that, I think.
At least I never saw anyone else do that who didn't cough up their own blood, guts, cash, and future into the experience.
Yeah, I've never even thought of it this way, which is, yeah, I can't wait to tell my friends that I... You've never talked to anyone about this particular topic who's kind of gone through that approach.
Yeah, yeah. I took a year off between high school and college, and I also took a year off between undergraduate and graduate, because I just had no money.
And I didn't know any of this stuff then, so that's why I'm trying to pay it forward, pass on the stuff.
I got some grants, I got some loans, I patched it together, and I was broke half the time, and I don't know how the hell I got through it, frankly.
But, you know, where there's a will, there's a way.
And it really is quite an exciting time.
And I mean, even at the time, I knew it was pretty cool.
But looking back on it, I look at it as, you know, my hobo with the library years.
And I'm actually incredibly proud of what I was able to do.
That's great. That's great.
That's absolutely fantastic.
I'm really interested now.
I'd just like to find out if it is right for me.
Yeah, and that's, of course, the key, right?
I mean, it may or may not be, but I would definitely not...
Not toss it out based on anything to do with school beforehand.
Because it is completely different.
It's the first time. And plus I'm completely different.
And you're completely different. You're not being taught by your mom.
You're not thinking about being a youth pastor.
You're not bored by empty relationships.
University is the first time where you're actually treated like somewhat of an adult when it comes to the contents of your own brain and filling it with useful stuff.
So I would highly, highly recommend it as a, you know, you're not sitting there in class for six or seven hours a day and then with two hours of dumbass, who cares, what's the point, homework.
It is really, really different.
You do get to pick and choose.
You do get to pester professors for free time.
You do get involved in interesting debates.
They actually do want to hear from you in college, which is very different from high school.
High school is like, what do you mean you're asking a question?
You know, do the assigned work.
It is much more engaged, engaging, and a very different experience in college.
And so I would definitely look into it as a way to ride out the recession and come out with some additional credibility and wisdom on the other side.
Huh. Okay.
You know what?
I'm going to do some research.
All right. Let me know how it goes.
I certainly would be happy to hear how things are going.
Absolutely. Absolutely. All right.
Well, thanks, man. I'm going to end it here because my daughter's just getting up and I should do a little bit of that parenting stuff.
But I'll send you a copy of this and maybe you can let me know if it would be okay to post.
Oh, I can already say go ahead, you know.
This was great. Thank you so much.
And thank you for what you're doing.
You're doing a great job here and you've really helped me through a lot.
Or you've helped me help me through a lot.
I'm really glad. And thank you for pestering me for the call.
I'm really, really glad.
No worries. No worries.
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