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Dec. 20, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:54:34

1536 Sunday Show 20 December 2009

Egg-AH!, a tidal dream, curiosity in relationships, and a distant father.

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	What's that, Boo Boo? Egga!
	Egga! Yeah, that's right!
	Someone just posted a picture of eggs in the chat.
	Well done! Now, post something that's not an egg.
	You might get the same word. Egga!
	That's right, boo-boo.
	Egg-gah.
	Egg-gah.
	Well done, boo-boo cakes.
	Okay, bye.
	Bye-bye.
	Bye bye.
	Egga! Egga! Egga!
	Egga! Bye-bye, boo-boo!
	Aw! Man, oh man, that's just when I do a show.
	I can't imagine how parents drop them off at daycare.
	Too horrifying. Alright, well, thank you everybody for your patience as I indulged.
	Massive Daddy Pride, of course, it was Isabella's very first birthday yesterday.
	She has finally achieved the age of one and so has popped into existence.
	It's very, very cool. So, we had a lot of fun.
	We took her to Chuck E. Cheese, where apparently, I mean, despite the name of the restaurant, you are not actually allowed to throw the cheese.
	Chuck E. Cheese, you'd think, but apparently I was told in no uncertain terms, no hurling the cheese, specifically off the pizza.
	So she did the slide.
	For the very first time, we put her to go down a slide.
	She must have gone down like 10 or 20 times.
	That was really, really cool.
	So she just loves the slides.
	And we did put her on a chair that sort of rotates up and down, but she didn't really like that so much.
	But we had a great time.
	But man, it's really a wild place to go.
	I went there a number of years ago with my nieces, but it's just on a Saturday afternoon.
	It is quite mad.
	So she had a great deal of fun.
	And then we had cake. And mommy and daddy certainly...
	Enjoyed the cake. And I will paste a picture of it up in the chat room.
	And Isabella enjoyed a little bit of icing, but I don't think she's inherited quite my death-defying sweet tooth.
	So it's not so bad for her, but she didn't really like the cake so much, but she certainly did have a lot of fun.
	And she's actually kind of down to one nap a day that she does now, which is a challenge because, you know, we used to have a little bit more time to To get things done.
	And now that she's doing this one nap a day, it's a bit more of a challenge.
	But she's just a complete and total delight.
	So, you know, once again, I hope I'm not sounding too repetitive, but I just completely thank everybody so much who has given me the opportunity to spend this kind of time with my daughter.
	And I have scads of notes for a parenting podcast.
	I have lots of thoughts about things that I have found useful in that.
	And I hope to get to those in the next little bit.
	I know I've only done a couple of parenting podcasts, but I will try very much so to get more done, because there's more that I sort of want to say or that I have found to be useful in that.
	And so I hope you will indulge me as I do parenting rather than talk about it.
	It's very anti-philosophical in many ways, but there it is.
	So thank you everybody so much.
	Now listen, without any further ado, I just wanted to have just one announcement before We get started, which is about the pan-European get-together, which is happening next summer, and we do hope, Christina and I, and Isabella, of course, we do hope to be able to make it there.
	So let me just tell you a little bit about it, and hopefully you'll be able to join us.
	It's June 20th, the 27th, 2010, and the location that is set It's Malaga, Spain.
	M-A-L-A-G-A. It's an airport that's serviced by Ryanair.
	Cheap accommodation. It's pretty easy to find.
	It's by the sea. It's way down south.
	So it should be great, great weather.
	But don't book any flights just yet.
	The location may still be changed.
	Until Sunday, December 27th, come to challenge our choice of location on the Free Domain Radio board.
	And I will make a slightly more user-friendly location because I'm not going to try and read this one out.
	But it will be at fdrurl.com forward slash 2010meetup.
	That'll be one word. Let me just make that while we just patter on a little bit here.
	But it will be a great deal of fun.
	I hope, I hope, I hope that you will find a way to come.
	And it should be a great deal of fun.
	If you haven't had a gathering together with philosophically minded people, you know, don't depart this planet without having done it at least once.
	You know, whether it's coming to a Free Domain Radio barbecue or just using the...
	There's a maps feature on the Free Domain Radio message board, which you might want to use to find people close to you.
	It's really, really well worth it.
	I think when you get together with philosophically minded people, It just is a very different planet to live on, and I think it's something that you should really, really try.
	Once you've really sat down with people who have the same values, I don't mean the same conclusions, but the same sort of values and methodology, I think that you'll be hard-pressed to not do it as often as possible.
	So, FDRURL.com, 2010 Meetup.
	You can go, and if you would like to know a little bit more about it, there's also a Facebook page.
	I think it's posted on that thread.
	If not, you should post it, whoever is organizing this.
	And I hope that you will be able to join us.
	It's well, well worth it. It would be a fantastic vacation and a great conversation and a really, really enjoyable time.
	So I hope that you will find it. All right.
	And now we turn it over to the brains of the outfit.
	That would be you, my treasured friends, who make all of this possible.
	So if you have comments, questions, issues or problems, Now, sprechen Sie upwards, and I will be happy to hear.
	If you would like to phone instead, you can call 315-876-9705.
	And also, if you could please, James P. is in the chat room.
	Just let him know that you're going to call so he can answer it on the server.
	And someone has asked, what do I think of Thomas Sasse's ideas about mental illness?
	I must say that I don't know.
	But if you do know and you would like to School us, please speak up.
	Or if you have anything else that you'd like to chat about, please feel free to.
	Hi, Steph. Hello.
	Hi. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind me sharing a dream and giving some thoughts on that.
	I had one last night that was pretty interesting.
	All right. So...
	I'm at the beach with a friend and I don't know who this friend is.
	I don't think that I actually know her.
	And it's the middle of the night and we're like waiting in the water and all of a sudden there's like an earthquake.
	And I kind of look at her and I'm like, oh, wouldn't it be weird if...
	If we are drifting away from California right now, because there's this kind of rumor that an earthquake could possibly cut off part of California or something like that.
	So I think that's what I was talking about in the dream.
	And then I feel water rushing towards the sea on my feet.
	And I can tell there's going to be a really big wave.
	And I look at my friend and I say, there's going to be a really big wave.
	Just hold your breath and we're going to be okay.
	And so I think we hold hands and then we both hold our breath and I plug my nose and then the wave comes and it kind of tumbles us and we're okay.
	And then we go to my mom's house to dry off.
	I think she's nearby.
	I woke her up, and she's screaming at us that we're on drugs.
	I'm trying to explain to her what happened, and she's just not listening to me.
	She just keeps not listening to me, so I'm just like, you know what?
	You're going to feel like a real asshole when you find out that there really was a tsunami, and then I leave.
	And that was my dream. Okay, let me just make sure I've got this.
	So you're with a friend on the beach.
	You don't know who the friend is. And you sort of feel suddenly like you might be drifting away from California.
	There's water rushing towards the sea from your feet.
	So it's like there is sort of a chasm that's opened up and the water is going out.
	And I think that's what actually did happen when there's a tsunami.
	The water all goes away and then it comes thundering back, right?
	Yeah, I know. I've spent a lot of time at the beach, and that actually is what happens just with a regular wave.
	You can feel the water rushing towards the wave, and then it kind of builds up and comes back.
	Right. And so you say there's going to be a really big wave to your friend.
	Hold your breath and we'll be okay.
	And you say the wave hits.
	Is it a really big wave? Yeah, it's a really big wave.
	Okay, like how big?
	What are we talking about? Like, uh, well, it's all really, really dark, so I can't really see it.
	Um, but, uh, it's, I would say it's probably like maybe like 30 feet.
	Right. Okay. So like in actuality, that kind of way would probably would kill us, you know?
	Okay. So, and then, so you do survive the wave and then you go to your mom, the mom's house, right?
	Right. And she's yelling at you that you're on drugs and she doesn't listen to you and then you say you're going to feel like a real asshole once you find out that there really is a tsunami.
	It really was a tsunami. Right.
	And is that the end of the dream?
	Yeah. All right.
	And you had this last night?
	Yes. And you were in on the call that we had on Friday night around despair, right?
	Yes, I was. Right.
	And what did you think of that call?
	Was there anything that you took out of that that you think might be related?
	Yeah, I mean, that's one thing that I definitely thought could have been related to this dream because it And it made me think of your tsunami dream.
	Oh, yeah. Dreams, dreams, dreams, yeah.
	Yeah. So, and it's kind of like, especially because my friend's with me and I'm kind of like telling her like, it's going to be okay.
	Like, we're going to be okay.
	We just got to, like, this is going to happen and we're going to be okay if we just hold our breath in the way would be like philosophy or, you know, the truth.
	It could be. It could be.
	But go on. Yeah, and just about the call, I definitely got a lot out of that.
	And you talked in the call about it being something that a lot of us kind of avoid, and that definitely resonated with me, not thinking about it.
	I've been in this conversation for about a year and a half, and all of our Relationships outside of just me and Kyle here have not lasted.
	And we haven't really put any effort into making new friendships outside of FDR. And so it's just this thing that we're not talking about, but not definitely avoiding.
	And just to fill those in, we had a call.
	I don't know what I'm going to do with it, but it was a long call, a conference call that we had on Friday.
	Around the question of despair and the empirical evidence about whether we think that rationality or irrationality is going to win the world over, right?
	And the despair, that the empirical evidence seems to point that rationality and philosophy will not win, at least not this time, at least not for the foreseeable future.
	And by that I mean a couple of generations out.
	And we were just talking about what the evidence is about whether or not reason is powerful enough to sway Prejudice.
	We came to a sort of tentative and qualified and highly subjective view that despair was an appropriate emotion to feel.
	Though, of course, it's not the end of the story and should not rob us of all motivation, but we always need to be realistic when assessing the odds that reason is going to win out.
	So that was the call, and I don't know what we're going to do with it, but that's sort of what you were referring to.
	I don't think the wave is philosophy.
	And I say that because I actually have copyrighted Philosophy as a Wave and I haven't seen any royalties.
	Right. So clearly we wouldn't want to get down into that mess.
	But no, the reason I don't think that the Wave is Philosophy is where, in a sense, does it take you?
	To my mom's.
	Right. Yeah.
	And just something else that is, I think, probably relevant to the dream is that I just recently reconnected with my childhood best friend on Facebook.
	I mean, I'm not sure if it's related, but it kind of feels related.
	I haven't talked to her in probably like 10 years.
	We just lost touch because I moved away from where she was.
	We're probably going to meet for coffee to talk.
	I was kind of excited about that.
	And when did you contact her?
	This was, I think, probably like Thursday or Friday night.
	Right, okay. And you haven't met with her yet, right?
	Right, no. And in what way do you think that is related?
	I'm certainly not disagreeing with you.
	Of course. I'm just curious what you mean.
	Well, because she's, uh, well, yeah, I mean, thinking about how it leads to my mom, well, that could still be it.
	Like my, um, cause I, I don't recognize the friend, but that's like the most recent, uh, friend, new, new friend, uh, in my life that would be significant.
	Right. And, um, And I kind of try to tell her, like, you know, we're going to be okay.
	And related to the call, I was thinking it would be like me talking to her about, or like me being honest with her and having that.
	About sort of your experiences, living your values and so on, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I have no idea how the first meeting is going to go, but...
	No, you do. Oh, yeah.
	Sorry. No, you wouldn't be having a dream, right, if you didn't.
	And the dream may not be right, though I generally err on the side of it being right, but not to rob you of the empirical experience.
	But I didn't get a sense of, when you were recounting the dream, and maybe it's not the case in the dream, I didn't get a sense of what the emotional experience of your friend is.
	Like, you're reassuring her. Does that mean that she's experiencing anxiety or showing fear?
	She's a bit of a blank as far as that goes?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Yeah, I remember when we're at my mom's house.
	I don't really remember when the wave is coming, like if she expressed any kind of fear or anything.
	I don't think that...
	Yeah, I think it was kind of a blank on that.
	But at my mom's house, I remember looking at her and thinking that she actually kind of did look like she might be on drugs.
	Your friend looked like she might be on drugs?
	Yeah. I mean, not like...
	Like she's not like actively on drugs, but kind of like she might be like the type of person who does drugs.
	A stonery cat, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, okay.
	So if she doesn't express any anxiety, why are you trying to comfort her?
	I felt like...
	Like in the dream I felt like I knew what was gonna happen and that she didn't know what was gonna happen and I was kind of like...
	Trying to explain it to her.
	Oh, so there was no indication that there was a wave visible as yet, but you said there is a wave coming.
	Okay, sorry, I misunderstood. Yeah, I got that wrong.
	So there's no wave visible, but you say a wave is going to come, but it's going to be okay.
	Right. Now, again, to me, I always try and figure out why the choices are made in the dream that may not be made in real life, because I think that's usually important.
	So why don't you get both of you to a higher place?
	Like, why do you stay on the beach if a wave is coming?
	I think there was no time to get away from it.
	No, because if there was no time to get away from it, you wouldn't have had time to warn her, or she would have seen the wave coming, right?
	And would have shown fear, which you then would...
	Again, the dreams are usually pretty precise about this kind of stuff, so...
	Yeah, like in the dream, the thought didn't cross my mind to try to run away.
	And that's interesting. I mean, I think that's very, very interesting.
	And yet, your decision, and I'm trying to figure out, after the dream comes, how do you end up at your mom's place again?
	I mean, the dream doesn't wash you to your mom's place, right?
	Right, right, no. And I don't remember the transition.
	I don't think that there was a period of time where we were walking to my mom's house, but that's where we went to dry off.
	And what was your friend's relationship to your mom when you were kids?
	I can't really, I can't remember what.
	I know that we had sleepovers and she would come over to my house.
	One thing that really stands out for me with this friend is a strong memory.
	Because we went to school together in first and second grade.
	And when it was time for our parents to pick us up, we would hold hands and not want to go home.
	Like, neither one of us ever wanted to go home.
	And what was her mom like? Her mom wasn't around.
	She lived with her dad.
	And what was her dad like? Her dad was...
	He was kind of like a surfer type.
	He always was really nice.
	He was always really nice to me.
	Sorry, you see the connection, right? Oh, yeah.
	Yeah. I mean, my dad's a surfer type, too.
	Oh, well, see, we wouldn't want to mention that at all.
	No, no. Okay, so he's like the ex-husband in Cucatan.
	Okay. Right, yeah.
	Yeah, and I think that's why I knew in the dream, like, what to do and stuff, because I spent a lot of time at the beach when I was a kid with my dad and stuff.
	Right. Yeah.
	But yeah, her dad was always really nice to me.
	I always liked spending time with them.
	But yeah, that's all I can really remember.
	Okay, well let's talk about the time that you're at your mom's place then.
	Because I think the dream is warning you about a potential danger.
	Because the one thing that is true in When you're at your mom's place with your friend, is that you both seem to be dissociated, right?
	Insofar as your mom accuses you of being on drugs, and you say that this girl does appear kind of a little bit out of it, not actively on drugs, but with that stoner air, which indicates a kind of dissociation, lack of boundaries, lack of awareness of surroundings, lack of capacity for self-protection, and so on, right? Just kind of drifting in a haze, right?
	And you have moved backwards in time because you're getting into a fight with your mom, right?
	Right. Yeah.
	And then at the end of the dream, you say to your mom, you're going to feel like an asshole once you realize there actually was a tsunami because she thinks you're making it up, right?
	Right. And that's interesting because it indicates, at least in the dream...
	That you feel that your mother will be cowed by evidence, right?
	That she will back down in the face of evidence, right?
	Yeah, and you know, just something I think is probably worth mentioning also here is that my mom...
	My mom, and actually pretty much my whole family is like drug addicts.
	And... Or, like, recovering or active.
	And, like, my mom's stance on drugs and alcohol is that they're the problem, not, like, any kind of underlying issues.
	So, sorry, your whole family is either drug addicts, recovering or active, and they externalize, like, the problem is drugs, not my choices or my history or whatever, right?
	Yeah, exactly. And that includes your mom, is that right?
	Yeah, my mom, my mom Especially.
	I've actually had conversations with her where I was talking to her about history and choices that she made and stuff, and she basically just said, drugs are my problem, not anything else. And I'm recovering, so all of my problems are fixed.
	Right. Okay.
	And so you go to talk to your mom about, your mom says, what's going on?
	Like, why are you wet? Or is it something like that?
	And you say, because there was a tsunami, and you say, that's nonsense, you must be on drugs?
	Well, no, she, like, we wake her up, like, by knocking on the door, and she's, like, immediately hostile.
	Like, she's immediately like, what's wrong with you guys?
	Like, she just sees that we're wet and, like, doesn't want to hear any kind of explanation about it.
	But you still try to give an explanation, right?
	Yeah, mm-hmm. Right, right, okay.
	So, how do you think your friend, when you meet up with her in real life, is going to take your history over the past year with your family?
	I think my first gut reaction is that she's going to think that it's weird, like that I'm not seeing my family.
	That's an interesting answer because it's not the answer to the question.
	Oh, okay. I think, I mean, if I remember right, it was like, how does your friend feel?
	What's your friend's feelings going to be about it?
	Feelings? Probably anxiety.
	Go on.
	I'm like getting pretty foggy right now.
	And I've thought about this, like, because I've thought about meeting with her, but...
	Yeah, she'll feel anxiety and...
	Well, because, like, she knew...
	She knew my parents.
	And my brother and...
	Like, I know it's gonna come up, like, right away.
	Well, sure. And why wouldn't it, right?
	I mean, people ask how your family is, right?
	Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that.
	And why would she feel anxiety?
	Because there's problems in her family also that probably bring up questions that she doesn't want to think about.
	Right, so if you've taken a break from your family and she has issues, and of course, the problem is not that there are problems, right?
	Of course, right? I mean, all relationships have problems to one degree or another.
	But the problem is that there's not a cohesive or coherent way to work on the problems.
	Right. You know, I'm so sorry.
	Can you repeat that last part?
	I was a little distracted because we were closing the window.
	No problem. The issue is not that she has problems or may have problems with her family.
	I mean, all relationships have problems at times, right?
	I mean, but the issue is that there's no coherent or cohesive way to work on the problems, right?
	You bring the problems up and everybody just explodes or detaches or attacks or whatever, right?
	Right, yeah. Right.
	Yeah, because I can't really remember exactly what happened with her mom, but I know her mom wasn't in her life at all.
	And how old was she when that occurred?
	I mean, I've never known her mom, so it must have been very young because we were friends since probably about five years old or so.
	Right. Right.
	And so, let me just ask another couple of series of questions, because I think we're close to the core here.
	But, I mean, you have a great relationship with your fella, right?
	I mean, you guys love each other very much and very supportive and happy, right?
	So if she comes along to you and she says, I've just broken up with my long term boyfriend, what would you feel?
	If she said that to me.
	Yeah. I mean, I would want to know more information about it because I really, like, I don't know anything about her right now.
	Right, but you would feel sympathy, right?
	Right, yes, yes. Because when we have a good thing, we want to share it, right?
	When we have a good thing, like we have love or we have health or we have wealth or we have success or we have a good thing, then we want to share it with others, right?
	Right. Right, right, right.
	Yeah. And so if, you know, since you're happy and in love, if you find out that her relationship, of whatever kind, a couple of years or whatever she's got, that you would feel like, gosh, that's, I feel great sympathy, right?
	Mm-hmm. And it is a measure of the general quality of families, the degree to which those of us who've separated receive sympathy.
	Right. And this is a very chilling fact, right?
	Right, absolutely.
	Well, you got it, so tell me about it.
	Yeah, I mean, outside of FDR, like, I haven't gotten any sympathy from anybody that I've shared with, that I've separated from my family.
	It's always just like, what?
	Like, why? You know, it's kind of, like, hostile.
	Right. And defensive.
	Right. Now, if somebody said to you, I broke up with my abusive boyfriend, you would feel that if you were in an abusive relationship.
	Oh, right. You see?
	Now, again, I'm not saying all families are abusive.
	Of course not, right? But what I am saying is that I believe that That the quality of people's familial relationships is proportional to their sympathy for those who've separated.
	Because if you have a good thing, like your relationship with your guy, you're going to feel sympathy to somebody who's broken up from a bad relationship.
	And you'd like to help them, and you'd like to, you know, gosh, that's terrible.
	How did it start? What happened?
	Tell me about it. Here's what I think.
	You would be a soft place to land for somebody going through those kinds of difficulties.
	Right, yeah. And so I think the dream is trying to tell you that the wave is you, but it's going to...
	And the dream tells you that you know that it's okay, right?
	That you'll be fine, right?
	But I don't think that your friend is going to be fine because you guys end up washed up at your mom's place and you're both dissociated and back in the past.
	You're fighting with your mom.
	You're hoping that evidence is going to change your mom's mind and your friend is dissociated to the point where she appears like a stoner, right?
	Right, right.
	That makes a lot of sense.
	Yeah, that totally resonates.
	Right. And to me, it just means stay conscious.
	Yeah. You know, prepare for the worst.
	Expect the best, but prepare for the worst.
	I mean, that's like going out with a smile on your face and an umbrella in your hand, right?
	Expect the best, but be prepared for the worst.
	Hope for the best. So, the important thing is that if she has issues with her family that she's avoiding, then she is going to dissociate, she's going to get distant, hostile, critical, And it's going to trigger that behavior in you.
	In fact, it's kind of designed to trigger that behavior in you.
	And knowing that in advance, and I believe that you do know that in advance, you grew up with the girl, you know her family, right?
	So I think you know how that's going to go in advance.
	And my advice for what it's worth, which of course, you know, what do I know about chick-to-chick friendships?
	I have no idea, right? But this would be sort of my generic amateur advice on how to approach this.
	And the first approach would be, I'm not going to talk about my family.
	Right? And that doesn't mean lie, right?
	That just means that's a whole complicated thing we can get into another time.
	And then ask another question and so on, right?
	Now, if she's desperate to pursue, of course, if she's not, and what that is, is a kind of, it's not a manipulation, but it's kind of like a question mark, right?
	So if she's like, well, no, I mean, we've We've been out of touch, but we were friends for a long time.
	I do really want to know what's happening with your family.
	Then that's a marker that she might be able to handle it in a way that's not going to cause a backslide in both of you.
	But if she seems okay with you blowing past, because the moment you say that's a whole complicated thing, we'll get into another time, you communicate the entire story, especially if you're face-to-face.
	So she's going to know, down to the last detail, exactly what happened.
	Yeah. And she's either going to pause and pick that up, or she's going to be quite relieved, keep on driving, right?
	No matter what she hit in the road, right?
	Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that's one option.
	And the other option is, I'm going to RTR until my cheeks burn, right?
	Yeah. Right?
	So the only way to stay conscious when somebody goes unconscious on you is through that persistent honesty and curiosity.
	You know, like, so if you say a little bit about what happened with your family and she just kind of either gets, you know, distant or hostile or whatever, then you have to say, you know, in order to stay conscious.
	It's, you know, I felt this when this happened.
	I'm not sure why. What did you feel when I was telling you language?
	Just dredge and dredge and dredge until there's nothing left underwater.
	Yeah. Now that's a tall order.
	That second one, I'm, I'm a bit more chicken.
	I would probably opt for the first one on the first meeting.
	Just to find out if it was worth something to pursue or not, right?
	Yeah. I mean, if she says, I've been reading lots of books, I've gone to therapy, I've done this, then, you know, there may be some indications or whatever, but I think that's what the dream is about.
	Yeah, and you know, when you said the second option about just RTRing until, like, you can't anymore or whatever, I knew, like, exactly how that would go.
	Right, right. Like, I could see it exactly.
	Right. And that doesn't mean...
	I mean, this is a tough area, right?
	And I'm certainly no expert.
	I mean, I've gotten rid of all... My friends have almost all gotten rid of me completely because that's just the fate of somebody who speaks the truth.
	But it's not the end of the world to have somebody to go have coffee with and talk about a movie you saw, you know?
	Yeah. Like, to me, it's okay.
	Now, I have not been able to sustain those kinds of relationships because I find other people get...
	You know, they do the overshare and then the freak out and all that, right?
	But... Yeah. But to me, there's nothing wrong with that.
	You know, have someone you can go bowling with to take a seat.
	You know, whatever it is, right? And talk about the news.
	You know, you don't have to have that level of honesty in every relationship.
	But the challenge, of course, is that if you end up being avoidant in those relationships, that's going to have a penalty.
	Because you'll have to flip into two people, right?
	The honest person and the avoidant person.
	And that's not good, I think, psychologically.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, talk about it with your boy toy after the meeting for sure.
	Before and after, right?
	Yeah, absolutely. To sort of help process what has occurred.
	And you may be of great utility to this person.
	I mean, that sounds a bit dry and calculated, but, you know, you may be somebody who can really help her if she's not on the road to self-knowledge as yet, or if she is, you could speed her up, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, because there's kind of two things that like, or it could be both or whatever, but I kind of am thinking like, I mean, like I had a really, I had a strong bond with this girl when I was a kid.
	And like, I had a, I mean, my, my, those years were pretty chaotic for me.
	So that could be like a bad sign.
	Oh, right, right. Yeah.
	I mean, you wouldn't be close to her if her family were functional.
	Right. Yeah. But I'm also thinking that it could be a good sign, too, that I had this bond with her and that I could relate to her.
	Because the younger you are, the stronger you are yourself, right?
	So that makes sense. That's kind of the thinking that I have.
	Sorry, say that again? The younger, the farther back you go, prior to self-discovery and all that.
	The closer you are to your true self.
	Right, right. So, like, there could be some, like, really good things about that.
	I mean, I hope.
	Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I mean, for what it's worth, I think it's well worth doing that.
	I mean, even if it's just a one-time thing.
	I mean, I got emailed...
	Oh, God, when was it?
	About six months ago, I get emailed from a woman who is now a woman, but who was...
	My first almost girlfriend when I was 12, I think.
	She was 11. So, you know, it was a May-December dating.
	But she emailed me just, you know, she's married and she lives up north and she just emailed me.
	And I emailed back and I said, you know, nice to hear from you.
	And by the way, I owe you an apology because you asked me to go steady with you.
	We were standing by the iron fence and this and this.
	And you asked me to go steady with you, and I did not give you any kind of firm reply or fixed reply, because frankly, I had no idea what the term meant.
	I had never heard it before.
	Go steady? Is that a place?
	Is that a dance move?
	What is that? Is that a theater?
	Is that a movie? And I said, so I just wanted to apologize, because it must have taken a lot of courage to ask me that, and I certainly thought you were all kinds of cute.
	But I didn't know what the term meant.
	And unfortunately, she wrote back and said she had no memory of the event, which is a real shame.
	I don't know if it's true or not, but I am either blessed or cursed, however you see it, with being able to remember everything.
	Everything. I mean, the moment I saw her name, I was like, bam, I owe her an apology.
	And so anyway, we emailed back and forth a couple more times, but there wasn't really that much to talk about.
	But it was nice to hear from her, and I'm glad to have at least said, So, I mean, for everyone in our life, we have something to say to you.
	And so I think it's well worth having that conversation.
	Yeah, absolutely. All right.
	Well, it sounds like we're done. Is there anything you want to mention?
	Shall I move on to another caller?
	Yeah, that's it. Thank you so much for your thoughts.
	You're very welcome. And thank you for bringing up a dream.
	It's a It's a great dream.
	Also, you know, if we could all be as brilliant artistically as our dreams are casually every night, this world would be an amazing picturesque place to live.
	But thank you. That's great.
	And if you get a chance, do let me or if you want to put it on the donator board, just let us know how it goes or how it went.
	Will do. Thanks. All right.
	Thanks, man. All right.
	Next. Hello, Steph.
	Hello. Hi, I have yesterday finished listening to your RTR book.
	I'm sorry to be annoying.
	Could I just ask you to move a little closer to your microphone or speak up a little?
	Okay. Nothing better?
	Yes, thank you. Okay.
	I have finished listening to your Real-Time Relationships book yesterday.
	Yes. And now Christmas are coming and I'm feeling a little bit anxious.
	Only a little? That's good!
	That's massively great!
	Yay! Sorry, go on.
	People always understate things on these cults, you know?
	Tiny bit anxious, I can't breathe, but anyway, sorry, go on.
	Yeah, okay.
	And... There will be my grandmother, my uncle and my parents and during the summer I felt a bit unpleasant when uncle and my father have some conflict together and I stayed silent because I did not want to Mess with them,
	but now I want to at least try to express my feelings and when something will start happening I am wondering when I can be sure with the conclusions when they When there will be silence between them or some fight going on,
	if I can...
	I'll say I feel unpleasant.
	Right. I know that it is probably to 100% because they are actually having a fight.
	If I can make this conclusion or I just say that I'm only feeling bad or how to be curious.
	Right. No, that's a fantastic question.
	It's a great, great question.
	I can't answer it, but I can give you some thoughts that may be of some use.
	And the reason I can't answer it is no one, I think, can tell you What to feel about your relationships and no one can tell you how much honesty is enough or when you've achieved closure, hopefully for the better, but in whatever way, no one can tell you any of that.
	It's a very personal journey and it's a very personal thing, but I will tell you my suggestions about, or my experiences, let's say, and maybe you'll find them of some use.
	Well, If you're going to go down the route of honesty in the way that I talk about in the book, if you're going to go down that route, my suggestion is ahead of time, you can ask yourself, how far will I go?
	How far am I going to go?
	How honest am I going to be?
	I think that's a really important question because in many relationships, especially if we don't have a habit or a history of honesty with people, when we start becoming honest, we receive a lot of negativity or hostility or conflict.
	People get upset with us in various ways, right?
	So if you're going to go down the path and say, I'm now going to be honest with my family or my husband or my wife or whoever about what I think and feel.
	I think it's important to know ahead of time how honest you're going to be, right?
	So if you come and you say, I feel very uncomfortable.
	I'm just making this up.
	I don't know how this will go. Let's say you go to your father and his brother and you say, I feel anxious and upset and angry when you guys fight in the way that you do.
	And they then say, I don't know what they would respond, but let's just say they respond and they say, don't be such a pussy, right?
	Don't be such a weakling.
	It's ridiculous. It's just fighting.
	We're brothers. That's what brothers do.
	If you can handle it, there's something wrong with you.
	I'm not trying to characterize them as bad people.
	I'm just saying, if they do that, then you need to know ahead of time, I think, what you're going to do in that moment.
	Are you then going to say, I feel really hurt and angry when you say that?
	Or are you going to back down from that honesty?
	I think it's important to know how far you're going to go when you decide to be honest.
	Because likelihood is, if you have to really make a decision to be honest, then it's because honesty is not in your relationship at the moment, right?
	Otherwise you wouldn't, like I don't have to wake up and say, I think that I'm going to be affectionate with my daughter today.
	Today is the day. When after many years, I'm going to, right?
	I don't have to wake up and say, well, I think I'm going to try to be truthful and honest with listeners who call me, right?
	Like yourself. I don't sort of have to say, well, I'm going to make that, because that's just my standard operating procedure, so to speak.
	But if you have to make a real decision to start being honest, you're going to encounter resistance.
	Anybody who tries to redefine the existing habits of a relationship is going to encounter resistance, because those habits develop Because of some underlying issue or problem.
	We only become avoidant or empty or conformist or shallow in our relationships because there's something that we're all avoiding.
	And so when you start to become honest, you start to walk into the center of the living room where that big invisible elephant is, and everybody knows that you're going there immediately.
	Their alarm systems go on Defcon 5 full tilt boogie right away and they will try to move you back from whatever honesty you're expressing.
	So my question to you is, how far do you think you want to go?
	I don't know.
	I was trying to think about this beforehand.
	When I was thinking how should I react during the summer and I was thinking of that I will try to focus on how I feel at that moment if they try to Avoid it or attack me.
	And if they won't start behaving in a more civilized manner, then I would state that I'm leaving.
	And I will... No, no, no.
	No, that's not honesty.
	Right, because I mean, you can do that.
	You can do whatever you want. I mean, this is just my opinion, of course, right?
	But I don't think that you should say, I feel uncomfortable, and if people don't respond positively, you just say, I'm going to leave.
	Because that's not really working on a relationship.
	That's, in a sense, just kind of threatening, right?
	Or punishing through negative consequences.
	And that's not going to solve anything.
	What's going to come out of that?
	They're either going to say, okay, we'll stop fighting so that you'll stay.
	But nobody's learned anything.
	All they're doing is bowing down to a threat, right?
	Or they're going to say, fine, leave.
	And then what?
	What are you going to do then?
	If they say, fine, leave, I will leave.
	And then what? I mean in the long run.
	I will not come back if they won't try to fix it in some way or apologize.
	So basically, do you think that's going to happen?
	I don't know.
	I have to try it.
	Yes, you do know. Sorry, you do know.
	Because you've known these people for many years, right?
	Do you think that they're going to respond to a threat like this in a way that is going to be positive and build bridges and solve problems?
	Well, maybe...
	Okay, let me ask you this, because we think more clearly when there's money on the table, right?
	So let's say I'm a casino owner, or I'm a bookie, I'm a gambling guy, and I want to give you odds, right?
	So I say, I'm going to give you odds, right?
	I'm going to give you a bet.
	How much money would you bet that your father and his brother are going to listen to you saying, solve this or I'm leaving?
	And they say, fine, leave, and you leave, how much money would you bet that they would call you with an apology and a way to move forward in the next day or two?
	Well, I think a threat is not a good idea.
	Also, to make it so direct and so fast, at least to try to deal with it more Positively, but I think that there is a possibility that my father will try to do something,
	but I don't think that a threat is a good idea.
	How much money would you put down on the table that it was going to work out positively in the way that you're approaching it?
	With the threat that I will leave?
	Yeah, with the way that you've just described.
	You don't have to call it a threat, but with you saying, do this or I'm going to leave, how much money...
	I'll give you double back, right?
	So, will you put $1,000 down in order to make $2,000?
	us how much money would you put down that it's going to work out in a positive way?
	I don't think it would be positive. - Thank you.
	How much money? Would you like me to ask again?
	One buck. One buck.
	Okay. So that's not a good bet, right?
	The way that you're approaching it is not good because you're going to lose that dollar, right?
	Yes. And one day when somebody says $1,000, I'm going to take this bet and consider it a donation.
	But yeah, so when you say only a dollar, you're basically saying the approach that I'm going to take is not going to work, right?
	And work doesn't mean get your way.
	Work means a positive and constructive, the beginnings of a positive and constructive dialogue about how to solve problems, right?
	So, I'll tell you my approach.
	This may have no relevance to your family or your life, so I'm just sharing what I did.
	I believed, and still believe, this is more than 10 years later, that It's really important.
	In fact, I'd say it's absolutely essential to give people in your life who you have significant problems with every opportunity to do the right thing.
	Every conceivable opportunity to do the right thing.
	That doesn't mean make a decision on the first thing that doesn't work or the second thing that doesn't work or the tenth thing that doesn't work.
	But you keep going back and give them every opportunity To make the right decision.
	To control their temper.
	To cease abusing.
	To cease being destructive.
	To cease being hostile.
	To cease being manipulative.
	To cease being guilt-inducing.
	To whatever it is. To put the brakes on their own behavior and say, upon reflection, this was not a good way to do things.
	To give the people in your life who were troublesome or abusive or destructive Every opportunity to do the right thing.
	And in some deep way you can really be hoping, as we all do hope, that they're going to do the right thing.
	And how long does that go on?
	No one can say.
	No one can tell you how long that will go on for you.
	For me, it went on for And this is a waves back, so I can't be too precise.
	I think for me it went on for two or three months where I would sit down and I would continue to talk about what was important to me, where I would continue to tell people the problems that I had and I would listen to them and I would make suggestions and I would wait for something positive to come back.
	I would wait for something intelligent to come back.
	I would wait for something, some crack in the wall, some thaw In the ice.
	So that I wasn't the only one doing all the work.
	But unfortunately, as I got more honest, other people got more hostile, more aggressive, more contemptuous, more dismissive.
	And I just woke up one morning and I just felt such freedom, such liberty, such relief.
	That I could not have done any more to try and make things positive.
	That doesn't mean that I did everything perfectly.
	Of course not. But I could not have done anything more with the knowledge that I had and the person that I was to try to achieve a positive outcome within these relationships.
	It was primarily family. But I tried everything.
	And I just woke up one day and I was like...
	I've earned my way out.
	I have earned my way out.
	And, of course, I was talking to...
	I don't remember, 10 years ago.
	No, I don't think it was...
	Yeah, shortly thereafter I went into therapy.
	And I wish I had gone in earlier, but I had been as honest and positive and curious and open, and yet I had not...
	I've given up my needs.
	I need to have a voice.
	I need to have some preferences.
	I feel like people really love and respect me in this family or in these relationships.
	I woke up and I was just like, I'm done.
	There's nothing else that I can think of to do.
	It's out of my hands.
	The ball is in the other person's court.
	I'm going to stay open to calls, but I'm done trying to solve this.
	I've spent months. I've had numerous, numerous conversations.
	I've tried to be, and I think succeeded, to be as honest as I possibly can be about my needs, my preferences, my issues.
	I've been willing to listen to the other person's issues with me.
	And I just, I could not find a single atom within my flesh or bones or marrow or blood.
	I could not find one single atom that wanted to go back and do it again.
	Have another conversation.
	I tell you it's what it was.
	It was... I felt that to do...
	I think that to have done it in the way that I did it was honorable.
	I felt proud of having done it the way that I did it.
	But I felt that to go back again would be...
	An act of self-flagellation, of self-humiliation, of self-attack.
	My pride could not stand going back because then it just began to feel like genuinely pitiful begging.
	I had stated my needs, I had been curious, I had been honest and I had been rejected and scorned and ignored.
	People had made concessions and I'd asked for The next time we got together, they pretended that nothing had happened.
	And I just, you know, right down in my gut, my pride, I just could not go back to beg for a few scraps of human decency and affection again.
	I just couldn't do it.
	And that's the beauty about the honorable earning of your way out of destructive relationships.
	At some point, you're just like, oh, it would be so humiliating to go back and beg again, because the answer is It's so abundantly clear that to go back and beg again, it would just be embarrassing.
	And no one can say when that is for another person.
	The only thing that I can say is that the fastest way to get there is to be honest and open and vulnerable and curious, to state your needs, not back down from reasonable needs in a relationship, to have a therapist on your side, to have a support network and friendships who can hopefully help.
	And you just keep doing it until you break through or you break up.
	Okay. Thank you very much.
	Does that help? I hope I wasn't totally off base in terms of what I was saying with regards to your situation.
	Yes, I think it helped.
	If it didn't, I'll let you know.
	Please do. I mean, I know it's a very, very difficult thing and I certainly do appreciate you bringing it up and I certainly do applaud your courage In trying to bring this honesty to your family, I think it's hugely important.
	Thank you. You're very welcome.
	Okay, this is Ilter.
	How's it going? Hi.
	Okay, so I've had a bunch of different threads that are somewhat interrelated, all on the topic of what feels to me like maybe gaps in the psychology curriculum of FDR. Sorry, did you say GAPS or GAPS? GAPS, G-A-P. Oh yeah, no doubt that's the case, so please go ahead.
	Well, I mean, not in the sense that everything is always incomplete, but in the sense of specific things that I wish that were there that are not.
	Oh, okay, go for it. And I've been meaning to put a post in the show suggestions area forum because ultimately the output of those thoughts would be in the form of show suggestions.
	But I haven't been able to really pull them all together into some sort of elegant hole.
	So I thought I would just sort of, you know, dribble a few out and see if any of it sort of connects with you, if you see value in them.
	So let's see, where do I start?
	So one thing I've had is my experience of FDR versus my experience of going to therapy, which I've only recently started going.
	Every time there's a new FDR podcast about psychology, it's always welcome.
	It's always enjoyable because, you know, I'm going to learn something that's probably generically useful, but it's something that's true that applies to everyone, usually.
	And there are no questions being asked of me.
	There's just information and examples being given to me that I can often relate to myself, and even if not, then I still appreciate the knowledge.
	Versus the experience of finding a therapist and then going to therapy and trying to figure out what to say or what to ask or how to answer questions.
	is much more intimidating and confusing.
	And I'm trying to remember what I was doing with this.
	Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I think I understand what you mean.
	Like with...
	With a podcast, I mean, it's not therapy at all.
	With a podcast, you're in control of the stimulus.
	You can hit pause, you can stop, you can do it later.
	But with a therapist, you're sitting across from a human being in isolation, and it's just the two of you, usually.
	And you don't have the same control over the stimulus.
	And it is a conversation with a therapist, which has eye contact and body language and It has longevity, and the therapist, of course, is trained, which is not my standpoint at all.
	And so, in my experience, and I'm certainly no expert on therapy, but it's very different.
	FDR is not even close, because it's philosophical, fundamentally, right?
	Right. But I feel a sense of sort of unpreparedness, and I think I think maybe that could be improved.
	Sorry, unpreparedness in what context?
	Unpreparedness as a consumer of psychological services.
	You mean as a therapy person?
	Correct. As a person seeking therapy, as a consumer of psychotherapy as a service.
	Got it. And I think I called about this once before, but I want to get sort of Deeper into it, about the idea of choosing a therapist and then also knowing what to talk about.
	I feel like there's some core curriculum perhaps missing.
	So for example, the cool themes of FDR are philosophy and psychology.
	Those are like the two pillars.
	But on the philosophy side, you've got your wonderful Intro to Philosophy series, which is 18 parts.
	And you've got many other podcasts reviewing key figures like Aristotle, Plato, Hegel, Kant, etc.
	And while you talk about psychology extensively, you know, as appropriate for the context, you know, in listener conversations or in the monologue, there's no equivalent on the psychology side to those things, sort of a core curriculum, like the integral philosophy is building up some first principles.
	I feel that if there were a philosophy service the way there are psychotherapists, I feel pretty confident Figuring out which one I want to talk to and then knowing what I want to say to them or how to respond to their questions.
	Right. I don't feel that way with psychology.
	So there's that.
	There's the fact that there's not like an intro to psych equivalent.
	Sure. And there's not like reviewing figures.
	Like you mentioned, Floyd, and you talked about how his experiences with hysteria and how he had to betray the truth because of pressures, etc.
	So there's been some of that. But not to the same degree in terms of a general survey Of either the field of psychology, like key figures who have developed ideas, or a survey of the profession in terms of techniques like, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy versus other things, etc.
	Right. Is any of this making sense?
	Oh, it makes complete sense to me, and I'll tell you why I haven't done that, and I mean, you're not the first person to bring this up.
	I think I know what you're going to say.
	Go ahead. I think you're going to give me the disclaimers of how you're not trained in this and it's not your expertise and maybe you don't feel comfortable or maybe there are legal problems with presenting certain facts or something.
	And I sympathize and I understand, but I disagree.
	No, look, the only legal thing, the only legal...
	There are two things that I can't do and not just me.
	There are two things that no one can do, which is to claim to have a credential that They don't in fact have, right?
	So if I were to say I'm a psychologist or I'm a psychological associate when I'm not, well, that's misrepresenting my credentials and that's not good.
	And that's not good for reasons of honesty, not legality, right?
	So that's the one thing.
	And the second thing I can't do is I can't diagnose someone as having like a narcissistic personality disorder because I'm not trained.
	I'm not a psychologist, right?
	So I can't I can't make a diagnosis.
	Now, that doesn't mean that I can't use the word, I think that person might be narcissistic, because it's a colloquial word.
	So you can't make a diagnosis in such a way that people think it is a professional diagnosis, right?
	So those are the only two restrictions.
	I can talk all I want about why I think human beings do what they do.
	I can talk all I want about my theories of the ecosystem and the true self and false self and the unconscious.
	I can talk about all of that till the cows come home.
	I just can't claim that I'm a psychologist, which of course I've never done, and I can't diagnose someone in such a way that people will think it's a professional diagnosis, which of course I've never done.
	So the disclaimers I put out there are just so that people understand that this is for people dipping in.
	Maybe somebody sends them one podcast and they have no idea who I am.
	Because I'm talking about all this stuff, I just want to make sure that people understand that.
	But no, there's nothing that I would feel either legally restricted by or honor-bound to avoid talking about my thoughts on the history of psychology.
	That's perfectly, I think, a fair and open topic because I wouldn't be making any of those professional claims.
	That would be wonderful. I mean, or at least I feel I would enjoy it and get value from it.
	To have your thoughts on either the field of psychology as a scientific domain, or the profession of psychology in terms of the techniques and the different kinds of methods or providers around.
	Right, now, so that's the first thing...
	Sorry, I just wanted to mention too.
	Now, I mean, obviously I have some training in philosophy.
	I mean, I have a master's degree where my thesis was specifically philosophical in content.
	So I feel fairly comfortable saying, you know, I have some expertise in the realm of philosophy.
	My theories about self-knowledge and what makes human beings tick comes out of, you know, my own exploration of my own thoughts, years in therapy, and so on.
	Of course, I always put those across as personal experiences.
	They're not scientifically proven.
	Of course, I'm not a psychologist or scientist.
	But I certainly have been aware of the deficiency in the aspects of self-knowledge that interests people a great deal about this conversation.
	I'm certainly happy to share my thoughts on those in the long run.
	But first and foremost, I really wanted to get the experts to talk, which is one of the reasons why I have been interviewing so many of the leading practitioners in the field lately.
	Oh, the interviews are great. Oh, thanks.
	And I have a couple more that I have not released as yet because I want to finish this Bomb and the Brain series.
	But I have another couple of interviews with some leading practitioners, neurobiologists and so on.
	Oh, sorry, neuropsychologists.
	It's been a little hard to keep up just because...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, no, go ahead. It's been a little...
	The interviews have been wonderful, but it's been a little hard to keep up just because...
	I don't think most of us have even sort of a one-on-one level in terms of neuroscience.
	You know, the basic fundamental concepts of what the different organs are, what the purposes are, to be able to understand when they say they may be able to have this effect, etc., etc., it's hard to put that into context the way I can with politics, economics, etc., that I know more about.
	And that's an excellent point. Well, thanks.
	And that's one of the reasons I've been holding off is that the next part of the Balm in the Brain talks a little bit about the physiology of the brain and what these various parts do.
	So that's one of the reasons I've been holding off because these people use some pretty heavy-duty Latin-based $20 words and I want to make sure that we all have some understanding of what they mean.
	So I've been holding off until the next part of the series where there's a couple of slides on You know, the physiology of the brain and so on.
	And so, I mean, I like to start empirically first and foremost.
	So we'll, you know, start with the latest research, get the experts in.
	And so far, I'm pleased to find that the majority of what people are talking about who are experts in the field is very much in accordance with what we've been talking about in terms of our philosophical approach to self-knowledge.
	So, so far so good.
	And I agree with you. I think that I've certainly had a number of requests for my thoughts on, you know, the history of psychology and so on.
	And I certainly would be happy to share them.
	And I certainly have a lot of things, right or wrong, to say about it.
	And so I appreciate what you're saying.
	I think it is something that does need to be filled in as a gap.
	But I wanted to give the experts the chance to lay the empirical foundation for what we'll be talking about in the future.
	And I understand that.
	Two more just quick points on the theme.
	So for one example is, you mostly talked about the benefits of psychology and why it's important, and I agree.
	But in every other field, we've talked extensively about how the state has corrupted the field.
	So, I mean, global warming is way too obvious to pick on.
	But, you know, in economics, you know, Keynesianism, and, you know, even in physics, you've got, you know, string theory, etc., We haven't really, or I don't recall too much discussion of the bad, you know, the bad neighborhood in the modern psychiatric profession or psychotherapy profession.
	What to avoid, or there's some stuff that's obvious, like, you know, the drugging of kids from the pharmaceutical side, etc.
	But are you still there?
	Yeah, no, I agree with you, but certainly in most of the locations that I know about, and I'm not an expert in this by any stretch, but most of the locations that I know about, the practice of psychology is not integrated into the state in the way that the practice of psychiatry is, right? I mean, so up here in Canada, my understanding is that you can see a psychiatrist through public health, like through the socialized medicine aspect.
	And so I think that there have been all problems associated with that.
	And in the U.S., of course, psychiatry is that state-protected union that is heavily funded by Medicare and Medicaid.
	But for a variety of historical reasons, psychology has escaped, to a large degree, the net that the medical profession has been drawn into with regards to the state.
	It's sort of like dentistry versus other kinds of health up here in Canada, at least.
	Dentistry is still semi-private and therefore is much better.
	So when you look at something like...
	Oh, sorry, go ahead. Well, so I'm just...
	Of most of the medical profession, or most of the helping profession, psychology has not been absorbed into the bosom of the state in the way that most other medical fields have.
	So I think it may not...
	I wouldn't put it in the same category, which is not to say that, of course, it's entirely private.
	So when you look at an example of the education field, like the FAT from a couple decades ago, where they tried to push the whole word method of learning language, which was a disaster and stunted kids' ability to learn language, you don't see too many of those kinds of incidents.
	Well, you know what? That's an excellent point.
	That is a fantastic point, and that could be a good podcast topic or two.
	Of course, my knowledge and experience is only with personal therapy, and I paid out of pocket for my This is what I'm doing.
	Right, right. And I'm very glad that I'm doing that because it makes me really want to get the most out of every session.
	Or I was glad to be doing that.
	But you're absolutely right.
	And of course, as far as I understand it, there are also psychologists in the U.S. who are advising the U.S. Army on proper interrogation techniques.
	I don't know whether the whole world learning came out of a corruption of psychological practices due to state funding, but that's an excellent topic.
	I only really think of psychology in terms of self-knowledge, right?
	I mean, as far as the sort of philosophical application of honesty with the self goes and curiosity with regards to the self.
	But you're right, there are whole other areas that I've never really looked into, but I'm sure it would be a fascinating thing to explore.
	Okay, I'll just end sort of with this.
	This closing rallying cry.
	Your show has always been primarily about self-knowledge, about introspection.
	It's not like political action where you say, now we've got to go do sine waves or elect someone.
	The only real external call to action that you've had consistently throughout your show is go seek therapy, go get self-knowledge, go deal with your past.
	And anything that you can do to make that I appreciate that.
	And that's one of the reasons why I've been interviewing people about the I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance.
	I had a chat with Dr.
	Siegel, who's an expert in this field recently, who's got some fascinating things to say about the physiological effects of talk therapy.
	He's actually measured the effects on the brain, and they're quite significant.
	So I agree with you.
	I need to put some empiricism behind The claims that therapy is efficacious if pursued in the right way with the right person.
	So I'm completely with you.
	You know, bear with me while I finish up The Bomb and the Brain.
	I will then immediately release the interviews that I have penned up.
	And if people still want more theory, I would certainly be happy to review some of my thoughts on the history of psychology.
	But you don't really see, perhaps, anything like the equivalent to Intro to Philosophy.
	You don't think that something like that would make sense?
	Because, I mean, you've got some concepts that are prevalent throughout the show.
	Like, you know, the ecosystem, the true self-pulse self, et cetera, emotional defenses.
	But do you see any value in perhaps bringing them all together in some kind of systematic way?
	I do. Yeah, you know, I can't argue a thing with you.
	I think that you're entirely right.
	I think that they would be very good.
	There is a... I've been meaning to send this out, this...
	A three-part series on the Miko system, which is not in the donator section.
	It was just sent out to subscribers, and I've been meaning to send that back out.
	There's also a seven-part series on ambivalence, which was also sent out to subscribers way back.
	And I've been meaning to sort of gather together all the subscriber podcasts and send them back out again.
	So that may be of some utility.
	I think I tried to download those today, and I didn't have access to it.
	Right. I will send them out in the near future.
	I'll sort of gather together Okay, well, I think I've dumped most of the disparate points on you that I've come up with.
	No, and listen, thank you so, so much for that feedback.
	I think that's invaluable, and I really just want to tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to sit down and think about improvements that can be made to the show and telling me It is absolutely gold.
	And I really, really do appreciate it.
	And if when I send out the stuff, you don't get them, for whatever reason, be sure to let me know.
	And even if you're not a subscriber, I would be happy to send them to you just for taking the time to give me this feedback.
	Sure. Well, I mean, it's pretty easy to just say, hey, Steph, you should go do AD&T. But no, I understand.
	You're welcome. All right.
	But thanks, man. I appreciate that.
	And if other people have thoughts about that, feel free to, about what this gentleman was saying, feel free to let me know.
	Alright, thanks man.
	No problem, bye. Alright, looks like we might have time for another one.
	Maybe, maybe.
	Hello? Hello. Hi.
	I was hoping to get some feedback on a situation I'm going to be facing soon.
	Sure. My half-brother called me up a week ago and I haven't talked to him in about seven years.
	He told me that my father is close to dying soon.
	I'm sorry to get that.
	I didn't really know him at all either.
	I left my mom when she was pregnant and I've only met him a couple times briefly.
	Once when I was 11 and once when I was 14.
	And he called me and said that he thought it was important that I get to know him before he dies.
	And so I was wondering what you think about that.
	Because I'm wondering You know, why all of a sudden it's so important to them.
	They said that blood is so precious and you don't get to meet people that you're related to every day.
	Huh. And how old are you now?
	23. 23, okay.
	So I just want to be sure, so your dad left, how old were you when your dad left?
	When she was pregnant.
	Oh man, okay.
	And you met him once when you were 11?
	I met him once when I was 11 and once when I was 14.
	And what were the circumstances of those meetings?
	I'm not really sure.
	What was the point?
	See, I'm not really sure about it.
	I've tried to ask my mom about how it all happened.
	I kind of get conflicting stories.
	She says that I never wanted to meet him, but I don't have any memory of even knowing that he existed when I was growing up.
	Well, sorry, you best have known that he existed in that you didn't think you were divinely conceived, right?
	Right. I mean, I didn't know who he was or where he lived or anything like that, like about him as a person.
	Did you know his name?
	No. So your mother didn't tell you his name?
	No. Not until I went to meet him.
	Why would she not tell you his name?
	Does she not think that a child should know something about his father?
	I don't know. This is what I mean when I said I really have no memory of...
	She says that I didn't have any desire to see him, but I would say that's natural because I didn't know anything about him.
	I... I wouldn't say that's true, which is, you know, just my opinion, right?
	I don't think that there's any son alive who has no curiosity or has no desire to meet his father.
	Mm-hmm. I mean, you knew that there was such a thing as a father.
	I'm sure you saw them around.
	You knew that there wasn't one in your household.
	You must have been curious about that, right?
	Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry.
	I'm so, so sorry.
	Gosh. Gosh, oh gosh.
	That's just terrible. Well, I guess my question is...
	My gut says to go and see him because my half-brother, when he called me, he said that he talks about me all the time and he says he loves me and such.
	But I wonder if that's true because I've barely ever seen him.
	How can you love someone that you don't know?
	Well, and how can you love a son that you've seen twice?
	Right. So I think...
	I'm curious about it.
	You want to kind of get his take on it if I go to see him, like ask him why he never made any effort to come and see me or anything like that.
	Well, why do you think that he didn't?
	I mean, did he live in the same city?
	Did he live far away? He lived in another city about a half an hour away.
	He lived a half an hour away?
	Yeah. He lived a half, so what is that, a local call?
	Yeah. So it's a local call and a half hour drive to see his son.
	Oh man. I mean, look, I didn't have the best father on the planet.
	The guy lived in Africa.
	He still wrote to me every week and he, you know, flew me out to see him twice for a couple of months each time.
	I mean, that's Africa!
	Yeah. Well, she told me that when When I was born that he refused to acknowledge that I was his.
	I don't know if that's true, but I know that she had to take him to court to get child support because he didn't want anything to do with us.
	And she did get child support?
	Yes. And I guess there were no visitation that was inflicted, right?
	Right. He obviously gave up sole custody and did not ask for any visitation rights.
	I assume so.
	Because he denied that I was his at all.
	And how was that for you?
	I mean, that's a pretty stone-cold rejection, wouldn't you say?
	I really didn't have any feelings on it because I didn't know about him at all until the first time I went to see him.
	You did have feelings.
	You did. Come on. I mean, there's no way that you could not have had any feelings whatsoever about not having a father and not even knowing his name, though he lived half an hour away.
	I'm not saying he knew all of that when you were a kid, but yeah, you had feelings.
	Okay. I have no, like, memory of them, though.
	Right. Okay, so maybe I'm completely wrong.
	It just would seem to me hard to not have feelings on that, but...
	So when you went to go and see him, when you were 11, what was the...
	Why? Why did that happen? As much as I recall, it was that my mom said she thought I should get to know my father and I think she arranged for it.
	She called him and asked if he would be willing to see me and he said yes.
	She brought me there and she dropped me off and I spent a couple days there with him and my half-brother.
	And after that, she came and picked me up.
	And that was the only time I saw him until about three or four years later.
	Oh, wait, wait. Sorry. So your mother's theory was that you should get to know your father?
	Yes. So why only once?
	I mean, it's like me saying to some woman, I'd really like to get to know you better, so let's go on one date only.
	Mm-hmm. So why only did you want to go back?
	back, did you enjoy the time that you were there with him? - Uh, I don't, it was really weird for me.
	That's all I remember. It's just very awkward because we were total strangers.
	Well, I mean, how was your father with you, right?
	I mean, it's his job to make you feel comfortable.
	I mean, you're the kid, right? It's not your job to make him feel comfortable.
	It's his job to make you feel comfortable, right?
	So how did he do with that?
	Uh, well, he kind of just left me and my half-brother to hang out.
	Like, I never really talked to him or anything when I was seeing him.
	He was just kind of there.
	What do you mean? So, like, he didn't ask you about your life or school or friends or hobbies?
	No, we didn't talk at all, really.
	Oh, man. Oh, man.
	I'm so sorry.
	Oh, my God.
	I mean, I know you don't feel it, right?
	But that's okay. But it's a heartbreaking story.
	It's a heartbreaking story.
	Yeah, I really don't feel anything about it.
	Right. Now, how did you, I mean, did you notice that there was, I mean, your mom says you don't even need to know his name, and now you need to spend a couple of days with him.
	That's kind of a, right?
	Yeah, it was a turnaround, I thought.
	Maybe your mom just couldn't find Babysitter.
	And what about when you were 14?
	I really don't remember how that one came about.
	I just remember it happened.
	I don't know if he asked her or she asked him or what happened.
	And how was it when you were there when you were 14?
	It was the same thing.
	Just kind of my half-brother and I hung out alone and he was just kind of at the house.
	We went And walked around the town and talked and stuff.
	It was more him and I talking then.
	Again, my father and I didn't talk at all while I was there.
	And then that was it. Like basically for the last nine years, you've heard nothing until he's sick, right?
	Yes. And is he dying?
	He's had multiple cancers that he's fought off, and they've come back, and the doctors, this is what my half-brothers told me, the doctors said that he doesn't have very much longer to live, maybe a couple years at most.
	Well, what do you think?
	I just think I have intense curiosity to meet him and to get to know him before he's dead.
	That's all I'm really thinking about it.
	Well, then what's your question?
	I mean, if you want to go do that, then that should be what you do, right?
	I'm not, sorry, I hope that sounds kind of cold, right?
	Like, so what's your damn question?
	I genuinely mean that.
	I mean, if you're curious to go and get to know this guy, then that's what you should go and do.
	But I'm just curious, you must be somewhat ambivalent about it, otherwise you wouldn't have asked for feedback.
	Yeah. Right.
	I'm just wondering if...
	Like, for instance, some person on the board said, well, doesn't that tell you all you need to know about him, that he didn't really make any effort to see you your whole life?
	Why didn't he call you instead of your half-brother?
	That's what I'm wondering.
	Like, I don't know. I really don't know him at all.
	Well, I mean, if somebody wants to get...
	I mean, he's not like a grade six girl who needs to have a friend ask you out, right?
	I mean... He can pick up the phone, right?
	He's still got his hands, right?
	Yeah. So if he wanted to get to know you, he could pick up the phone and say, listen, I've been a completely absent dad.
	I wasn't there at all for you.
	You have every right to be disgusted and pissed off and, you know, whatever, or have no feelings for me one way or the other.
	But it would mean the world for me if we could at least have a coffee and I could talk to you, right, whatever, right?
	Hmm. Hmm.
	So tell me more about what your questions are.
	Well, my half-brother called me up and he tried to...
	It almost felt as if he was making me feel guilty that we don't talk or anything.
	He said that...
	Sorry to interrupt. I know I just asked you for...
	But have you had no particular relationship with him other than these two times?
	Or have you guys been friends or close or...
	My half-brother? Yeah.
	Yeah, it's basically just been those two times and maybe an email once or twice since then.
	That's about it. Well, I tell you, my suspicion-o-meter goes up.
	And that's just me, right?
	I could be completely wrong, but my first thought would be, okay, so he just wants someone to help care for his dad.
	Okay. Like, I don't know.
	I don't know. What do I know? But that would be my first thought, right?
	Like, it's like, well, shit, now I've got lots of visits and doctors and bills and, right?
	And I don't want to bear this alone, so I'm going to just rope in whoever I can.
	He keeps appealing to this blood is really precious thing.
	He kept saying that over and over again.
	Yeah, and you can appeal to that if you've lived it.
	Right? You can appeal to blood is thicker than water if you've actually lived the goddamn value.
	Right. But you can't appeal to it when you've completely rejected it for 23 years, right?
	Right. That's what I've been thinking.
	That's like me saying after 1500 podcasts, the only virtue is silence, right?
	But sorry, go on. Well, yeah, that's just what I've been thinking.
	If it was so precious all along, then why hasn't anyone called me or tried to hang out with me since then?
	Well, I think the answer to that is, I mean, I hope these are rhetorical questions.
	You know the answer, right? Mm-hmm.
	Well, do you? Well, no, I don't.
	I'm just guessing. You do know the answer.
	Yeah. I mean, we know how people feel based on their actions, right?
	For the most part, I think so, yeah.
	Right, so if your father doesn't want you around, doesn't drive half an hour to see you, doesn't call you, doesn't write to you, doesn't talk to you in the two times that you go to visit him, Then what does his actions say about his feelings towards you?
	There's not much of them.
	Well, tell me what not much means.
	And the only times you saw him was because your mother initiated it.
	Right? Yeah.
	So, I think not much might be generous.
	So what if the person had a change of heart now and they're really interested in getting to know you before they're dead?
	Well, what evidence do you have of that?
	Direct evidence, not hearsay.
	Right, none. Right, so that's why I... In fact, you have counter-evidence because it's not your father calling up in tears saying, this is my biggest regret and I'm only realizing it now and blah blah blah, right?
	Yeah. Right.
	Right. Now, again, to me, I mean, you shouldn't take advice from anyone on what you should or shouldn't do with regards to this stuff, right?
	Because nobody knows this fundamentally except for you.
	But I will tell you this, that you should not go because you feel guilty.
	You should not go because of things which are completely not true.
	Obviously not true. Oh, he loves you.
	He talks about you all the time.
	It's like, well, then why doesn't he pick up the phone and call me, right?
	That just doesn't strike me as true.
	And it also strikes me that no one has asked you how you feel.
	Like, your half-brother has to know that this is probably a pretty sensitive topic for you, or at least a challenging one, even if the challenge is simply not feeling, right?
	Where the feelings actually are.
	Right? So, it seems that there's kind of like a rush...
	There's kind of an overemphasis on sentimentality.
	Oh, blood, and, you know, you don't get to meet relatives, and blah, blah, blah.
	That's all very sentimental, and that's kind of...
	Nobody's sitting there and saying, look, I mean, you had not a very good experience of your dad, obviously, right?
	So tell me your thoughts and tell me your feelings about all of that, right?
	That would be the way to build a bridge, not just sort of...
	Come thundering down with guilt and sentimentality and obligation and all that and things which are just demonstrably not true or at least would have every appearance of not being true.
	To me, building bridges would be asking you how you experienced your death and what your thoughts and feelings were about it all.
	Not, he's dying, he needs you, come, come, right?
	Yeah. I think that's I would experience that as being used and being manipulated.
	And I would experience that as disrespectful to my experience and my history.
	It would make me angry that I was being manipulated in this way.
	But that having been said, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't go.
	I would think about it a lot, of course, right?
	None of this has anything to do with what you should or shouldn't do.
	This is just my thoughts on it.
	Right, and that's exactly what I was hoping for.
	Someone else's thoughts on how they would perceive their situation.
	Yeah, I would say, look, you could say this to your half-brother.
	I might say, look, I don't know.
	I don't know what I think about this.
	It raises no emotion in me, which is not a good sign, or it raises complex and ambivalent emotions in me, which is also a challenging sign, so I need some time to think.
	Now, I have a couple of years, because he hasn't been hit by bus, he's blind on the sidewalk.
	I got a couple of years, so I need to think about it.
	But I will tell you this, my half-brother.
	If my father wants something from me and cares about me, tell him to pick up the phone and call me himself.
	So you don't think that there's any responsibility on me to do that?
	Look, there's no responsibility on anyone to do anything.
	But in order for me to believe that my estranged father had had some massive change of heart, I'd need to hear it from him, not from someone else, who has a vested interest in dragging me into taking care of this guy as he dies.
	Now, if your hot brother comes back as he might...
	With excuses. Oh, he's too proud or he's the kind of guy that you have to take the first step and so on, right?
	Then my response would be, okay, so I'm not that important to him.
	If he's not willing to overcome his pride or his hesitancy or whatever, then clearly I'm not that significant to him, as he's always indicated that I'm not.
	So, you know, if he has a change of heart, then he's welcome.
	You know, I'm happy to hear from him.
	If he really wants me to come, he's welcome to call me and tell me what his thoughts are.
	But, um, no, I, uh, uh, if he's not, if he can't even be bothered to call me when he's found out that he's dying, then clearly I'm not important to him.
	And clearly I've never been important to him.
	I haven't even been unimportant to him because I even get around to doing unimportant things like cutting my goddamn toenails.
	So if he wants to, I'm, you know, I'll take the call.
	I'm happy to hear his side of things.
	But, you know, he's the father and I've had no relationship with you.
	He's my dad and he should make the call.
	Now, if you want to call me, you can do whatever you want, but those would be my thoughts about it.
	And look, I hope you understand, I'm not saying this is cut and dried and easy.
	I'm not saying, oh, I would do this and never think twice about it.
	I mean... It would be a lot of conversations with people I care about to figure out what I really felt about this.
	And the last thing that I will say is that there is a kind of myth.
	There are two kinds of myths that float around.
	I think they're myths. Maybe people have evidence of the contrary, but in my experience there are these myths.
	And the first myth is that people become better as they die.
	That's the first myth.
	I've never seen that to be true.
	There's this idea that when you're staring into the great black beyond that your life unrolls before you and you see with clarity and your heart grows three sizes like the Grinches at Christmas and you get I mean, this stuff all happens in movies and in books.
	It just doesn't seem to happen.
	In real life. You know, it's like those, you know, in every cheesy movie or sitcom, there's some guy running through the airport to try and catch the girl before she gets on the plane.
	I mean, I spent my entrepreneurial life living in a goddamn airport.
	I've never seen that happen.
	And I've had a lot of relationships that haven't worked out.
	I've never had anybody chase after me and try and get me back and all that.
	Just as I have, well, I've only once or twice tried to do that with others.
	They just... Sentimental myths.
	I don't think they're actually true.
	On the other hand, I've known a number of people who have had significant problems with or estranged from their parents, and their parents get sick and die, and they don't get better.
	One guy I know, his father is similar to yours.
	His father lived in the same city and never saw him.
	And he met him maybe once or twice in his early teens.
	And he actually didn't even find out that his father had died until a year after his father had died when he found out from some third party.
	And there was no softening of the heart.
	No, I must have my estranged son beside me.
	No, none of this sentimental Russian hysterical claptrap.
	So I don't believe that people get better as they die.
	I think that if you live selfishly, you die selfishly.
	I think if you live meanly, you die meanly.
	I just don't think that The guy in the black cloak softens anyone's heart.
	And again, maybe I'm wrong, but that's certainly my experience.
	That's the one myth. The second myth that is quite common with regards to death and family is that if you do not reconcile, you will regret it.
	Like if you say you had almost no relationship with your father, but if you don't have some sort of relationship with your father before he dies, That it will haunt you, and it will interfere with your relationships, and it will mess you up.
	And afterwards, you will look back, and you will regret.
	Oh, you will woe, you will rue, you will weep bitterly upon his grave that you missed the opportunity to reconnect with him before he died, and the woulda, shoulda, couldas will float around your head like pecking vultures for the rest of eternity.
	I don't think...
	I don't think that's true. I've talked to some people who have had that experience where an estranged parent has died, and it's not easy, but if you've gone through that process, which we talked about earlier, of really trying to work to improve the relationship as best you can, it doesn't mean that the door is closed.
	Anyone in my family is always welcome to give me a call if something fundamental has changed.
	I mean, I'm never like, you know, close the door, blow it off its hinges, you know, drown it in the ocean and detonate it forever.
	If something fundamental has changed, you know, people are always welcome to give me a call.
	I just had a friend over today and his wife and we have not seen them in years.
	But he went through therapy and he called me up and he understood some of the problems and, hey, you know, come on back.
	I'm not a lock the door and throw away the key kind of guy.
	But I'm also not one to beat my head against the wall for eternity.
	So, if people have really worked to be honest and open and productive in their relationships that they haven't worked out.
	I've talked to some people that their parents have died in the interim.
	And it's difficult, and again, therapy is important if you've got the right therapist, then do that.
	But it is not a curse that is laid upon you if you don't resolve things with your parents in some magical way before they're dead.
	Because you can't resolve things with people, right?
	I can't walk up to someone I'm estranged from and resolve things with them.
	Because that is a two-party process.
	That is a two-person process.
	It's like playing on a seesaw all alone, thinking you can resolve things without the willing, direct, positive participation of the other person.
	Now, I could be completely wrong.
	Maybe your dad's an exception. Maybe his heart will soften.
	Maybe he will recognize the mistakes that he's made in leaving you fatherless until you're not a son anymore, right?
	I mean... I believe this very strongly.
	It's just a belief, but I believe it very strongly.
	Childhood is a phase that ends.
	It is a phase that ends.
	And, you know, I am nobody's son.
	I'm 43 years old.
	Me being a son, me being a child is decades ago.
	Now, I know that obviously you're 20 years younger than I am, but You're an adult.
	There's nothing that an adult can do that you can't do, right?
	You can vote.
	You can drive a car. You can drive a plane, fly a plane.
	You can drink.
	You can get drafted. You are a full adult, and your brain is almost completely and fully matured.
	I mean, this sounds kind of weird, and again, it's just my perspective, but what do I need a father for?
	I'm already a father.
	I'm already an adult. I just don't see the value.
	I mean, I needed a dad when I was a kid very, very badly.
	But when I became an adult, it's like...
	It's like you struggle your way to shore, and then someone hits you on the head with a life preserver.
	It's like, that would have been helpful when I was in the sea, almost drowning.
	But now that I've made it to shore...
	I don't really need the life preserver.
	And once I made it to adulthood, it's like, the time for parenting me is long past.
	It's just so much after the fact.
	I mean, there's a guy who had sex with my mom.
	I can't use the word father because father to me is not a genetic description.
	Fatherhood is an adjective, not a noun.
	Right? I was not fathered.
	I have no father.
	The guy's alive. He had sex with my mom.
	He called me on my birthday.
	But he's not my father because he did not father me.
	He only sired me.
	And that's a very different situation.
	To me, you know, you had a sperm donor.
	Do you get upset when your sperm donor dies?
	Stripped of all of the The metaphor and the rhetoric and the this and the that and the other.
	I mean, that's the reality.
	You had a sperm donor, you spent two weekends with your whole life.
	To me, that's the bald, bare-boned reality of the situation.
	But that's just my perspective.
	There may be reasons you want to talk to him.
	There may be a medical history that you want to get if he has a predilection to certain kinds of cancers.
	That may be useful for you to know in terms of your life, right?
	Because genetics has something to do with our health.
	And I say this, I think I've earned the right to say this because I am such an involved father.
	I have not missed one single appointment of my daughter at the hospital, at the doctors, anywhere that she's had to go.
	I have been a full-time dad.
	Since she was born, FDR is as best a part-time job as I can come up with.
	My sole focus has been on parenting, or my main focus has been on parenting, and I have an appreciation of what an unbelievably intense and deep and concentrated and full-time job and I have an appreciation of what an unbelievably intense and deep
	And to not taste that joy as a parent with your child, it does not, to me, give the parent the right to ask for things later in life.
	It just doesn't. Being a sperm donor does not make you a parent.
	It makes you nothing more than a donor.
	Anyway, so those are my thoughts.
	And I'm trying not to...
	I mean, obviously I can't tell you what to do.
	I'm also trying not to layer my experiences onto you, because although there's some similarity, there are some significant differences.
	But... I would, you know, if you want to go, go, obviously.
	I mean, it's your life. But I wouldn't go because other people want you to.
	I wouldn't go because of sentimentality.
	I wouldn't go for things that are just obvious nonsense.
	He loves you. It's like, come on.
	He was a half hour away for 23 years and he didn't make the drive once.
	Oh, but he loves you. I mean, that to me is just not true.
	It's just empirically not true.
	Now, if he loves you now, then he'll pick up the phone, right?
	But if he's still not bothered to pick up the phone, just as he was for the last 23 years, I wouldn't believe the love you bit for a moment.
	But if he does pick up the phone and he's got genuine contrition and understanding and he's curious about your experiences and he asks you, you know, that's another thing.
	I'll just end with this. I know it's a long speech, but it's a complex situation.
	I think parents who've done wrong by their kids have a desperate desire to explain themselves to their children, right?
	There's an old line from an old Paul Simon song, Slip Sliding Away.
	There was a father who had a son.
	He longed to tell him all the reasons for the things he'd done.
	He came a long way just to explain.
	He kissed his boy as he lay sleeping, then he turned around and headed home again.
	And parents do. As I've mentioned before, my father spent a seven-hour bus ride with me telling me all the reasons for everything.
	That he had done. And I did actually find that somewhat helpful because it helped me to understand that it was never about me, that he was just too wrapped up in his own challenges and misery to really be able to think about me.
	So there was some relief in that.
	Overall, it was not a positive experience, but there was some relief in it.
	So your father may want to explain himself to you.
	But the thing that was, of course, important to me, I didn't get it at the time.
	I was like 20 or whatever.
	I'm 21. I didn't get it at the time that he didn't ask me anything about my experiences.
	And when I realized that later, I was kind of pissed, right?
	So that would be my barrier to entry, so to speak, would be if people are actually curious about my experiences growing up as a fatherless son, if they want to know how it was for me, then I will have a conversation with them.
	But if it's all...
	about them and their needs, then it's just the same shit in a different pile.
	Oh dear, did I put you to sleep?
	No, that was very helpful, thank you.
	Well, tell me what you think, if you don't mind, or what you're feeling, if anything.
	I'm not feeling anything really, but I agree that, and I've thought if I do go It would just be because I'm curious.
	I'm not going because I feel anything because I don't.
	And if we did have a relationship, it would be just like it was with any other stranger.
	There's nothing innately preferable about him because, as you said, he missed that chance.
	Right. It's not going to be like any stranger because he's not a stranger.
	He's the guy who didn't come and see you for 23 years.
	He's not a stranger. He's your biological father, and he didn't call or write or drive over for 23 years.
	So he's not going to be like a stranger.
	I mean, I guarantee you that.
	Anyway, so there was at least, I hope, a few things that were helpful in what I was talking about.
	And I really, really, really sympathize.
	I mean, I... I regret very much that it seems very unlikely to me that I will have the chance to go down with my parents into death.
	I regret that very much, that that's not going to be possible for me.
	I imagine that being with a human being as he or she dies is a very powerful and intimate experience.
	And I very much regret That I will not have that experience of being there and helping somebody with the process of dying.
	Hopefully not for many, many years.
	So I think it's quite sad.
	I think it's quite tragic that...
	I mean, I know that sounds kind of weird, like, I want to, right?
	But I think that it is a very powerful human experience.
	I think that...
	It's hard to even think about, but of course if my wife gets sick and dies before me, it is going to be a beautiful and powerful, I can't even think about that, getting emotional, but it would be a beautiful and powerful and terrifying and horrible and essential human experience to love someone enough to follow them down to the lip of death and hold their hand as they're swallowed up.
	I think that is a very powerful and essential human experience.
	I imagine that that will be Isabella's experience in hopefully a half century or so.
	I regret that it looks like that experience will be not part of my life as a son.
	But there's nothing I can do about it.
	I can't make people do the right thing.
	Anyway, on the note of slipping off into death in Coronet, we should probably wrap the show up.
	It's a little bit past 6 o'clock, and I'm sorry that we started a little bit late.
	I would very much like to thank, of course, the listeners for opening up your hearts and your minds to this conversation.
	I think it's very, very important and I really do appreciate the trust.
	I always try to be very scrupulous about providing my thoughts rather than obviously ridiculous for me to think that I can tell anyone or anyone what to do.
	So I hope that you will take it just as the thoughts of someone who's gone through perhaps some similar challenges and that, of course, you're Your conscience and your final decision and all decisions that lead up to your final decision are fundamentally your own.
	We are what we choose. And we make ourselves into who we are by the choices that we make.
	And I hope that you will own those choices.
	And listen to what I say just as some potentially useful possible feedback that you can keep or discard at will.
	And I just want to say how much I respect everybody in this conversation for Taking on these challenges.
	This is the challenge of meaning and identity and depth and self-knowledge and truth and virtue and these other things that need to be plumbed face down in order for the race, the species and the world as a whole to progress to a higher and better and more honest place.
	So thank you everybody so much and have yourselves a fantastic week and a very, very, very Merry Christmas and I hope that you will have Fun and food and toys and games and let go of some of the challenges of the philosophical life and enjoy some of these shallow, silly, fun, enjoyable entertainments that the season has to offer.
	So have this stuff for a wonderful week.
	I will see you on the board. I will see those who are dropping by in a couple of days.
	And we will, I guess, have one more show before the end of the year.

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