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Nov. 27, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:34:43
1222 Preparing for THE Conversation With Your Father.

Useful tips for getting ready to finally sit down and open your heart...

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Hello. How's it going?
Pretty good. How about yourself?
Not too bad. Not too bad at all.
So you're doing it Friday?
I am. Wow.
I am. How are you feeling about it?
I feel pretty good.
I feel like I'm ready enough.
I mean, I don't know how prepared you could ever be for something like this, but I feel that it's about time.
You know, I've spent quite a while thinking about it, so I guess I'm ready.
Right, right. So, your dad.
I mean, just what you posted on the board.
It's a challenge, right?
I mean, it's a challenging relationship.
Yeah, it's really hard to get anything out of him at all.
He puts on a friendly face, and he doesn't seem to acknowledge really anything that's happened with me, and it's tough to deal with.
Right, and when you say he doesn't acknowledge things that have happened with you, that means in particular things about your childhood?
Right, yeah. And what is it specifically that he is not...
I guess what would be the best thing for him to acknowledge for you?
Well, to me... He's never shown any sort of responsibility or expressed that he was sorry for the many events that we've been through and that I've been put through.
If through this conversation he ended up giving me just an ounce of acknowledgement of responsibility on his part, I would Would see some hope in the relationship, but I also...
I mean, I don't know that I expect that from him either.
Well, you do know that you expect it, or rather, you have a feeling, right?
Because, I mean, you've known him for, I don't know how old you are, but you've known him for decades, right?
Yeah, yeah, I'm 25. 25, okay.
So, a quarter century.
Now, we can discount the first three minutes, right?
But we can discount the first little while.
So, you have patterns, right?
I mean, you're an intelligent fellow.
You're a very clear communicator, and it was a very well-written post.
So, you're obviously, you know, as bright as 12 shiny pennies, right?
And so, you have a pattern recognition here, right?
That there's a not acknowledgement.
And when you bring this stuff up with him in the past...
What happens?
What goes on?
What is his response? He tends to give a response that doesn't answer the question or doesn't...
I don't know.
It seems like he doesn't understand what I'm asking.
In the post, like I said, There was a time recently where I asked him just to tell me how his childhood was because he had never really expressed anything about it to me and anything I know about it I found out through other people and you know and then the first thing he tells me is where he went to junior high and then starts talking about where he went to school and where he lived but didn't really get the picture that I was you know Wanting to hear about his experience as a child with his parents and his brothers and stuff.
Right. And have you asked him this a number of times?
Or has it been one time and you got the sense that you couldn't ask further?
Or how's that gone? I've asked him other questions that have really just...
It makes it feel like it's pointless in asking.
It's really tough to get anything out of him.
Once I start...
If I'm persistent in asking, it seems like he will just try to push away.
For example, I have a half-brother who he had through my stepmom, who is about 18 years younger than me.
And there was a recent debacle where I wasn't able to see him and our family through the divorce and I didn't see him for a while and we had a really good relationship.
He was really fond of me and I had a good time.
Spending time with him.
I just sort of asked my dad why he never brought him around me.
He intentionally would avoid having us spend time together.
If we were going to some sort of family event, he would make sure if I was going that he wouldn't bring my half-brother.
And when I try to ask him about this, he gets really defensive, you know, and says, you know, I'm dealing with a divorce and, you know, I'm losing a lot of money on this and it's not over yet.
And he just really doesn't want to talk about those sort of things, it seems.
Okay. And now, so when you express, when you're asking questions, right, about...
What's going on in your family?
And I think, I mean, kudos to you, man.
I mean, seriously, that is, I mean, that takes some plums, I'm telling you.
Because most people will just sort of go through life and not ask these kinds of questions, right?
I mean, not to make it about me, but I mean, I remember when I was, I think I was about your age.
Oh, so many moons ago.
But I think I was about your age.
And my sister-in-law asked me, You know, well, when your mother did this, why were you and your brother separated for two years?
Why did he go to England and you stay in Canada?
And it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, but it was such an obvious question, and it made no sense to me.
And it also made no sense to me that it made no sense to me, if that makes any sense, right?
Because there's just things which are...
You know, it's just the way it is, right?
But that's never the truth with families.
It's never just the way it is, right?
I mean, if you're thrown out of a plane, yes, falling down is just the way it is, but everything else is not.
And so I think it's really great, although I know, I know it's really difficult to ask these questions, right?
Because family is like a big wheel, you know, just keeps turning and turning until somebody says, what the hell is going on here, right?
And I don't mean, or, you know, curiously, just what is going on here?
So I think it's really hugely important for you, for your future family, your family, I mean, to come.
And I know it's really tough to try and get these questions answered, right?
Big conspiracy of silence, right?
You know, all these 9-11 guys and the truthers, I hope you're not one, but they were like, oh, the government's hiding stuff.
It's like, man, the government has got nothing on families when it comes to keeping things in a vault, right?
Roswell is like Kmart compared to the family vaults of things that people don't talk about.
So, you know, as far as your own personal archaeology goes, I think it's hugely important what you're doing.
And I also know that it's a very hard thing to do, right?
Yeah, yeah, it has been.
A lot of the courage that I've gotten recently, you know, has come from FDR. So I thank you for that.
I felt like, you know, I was a very curious child and I would always ask questions and I was often, you know, shunned for asking too many questions.
You know, why do you ask so many questions?
You know, and then I would have to be quiet and just...
But recently I've, you know, started asking More questions now that I'm on my own.
It's bothered me so much, just sitting in the dark about my childhood.
It's been dismissed by my dad, and it's been frustrating, so I'm trying to gain some closure with it.
Right, okay. And why is your dad avoiding it?
Or, sorry, let's not even take that as an assumption.
Because some people, and I don't quite understand these things, which is, people say, oh, I don't remember anything that happened before I was 12.
Or something like that.
Like, I always find that kind of bewildering.
I mean, I remember so much about my childhood, you know, good and bad and indifferent and so on.
I can't imagine popping out like some Greek god from the forehead of your 12-year-old self with nothing behind.
It would just be bizarre. But maybe it's the case, right?
Do you think that he genuinely doesn't remember?
Or do you think he's avoiding?
And of course, the tell is irritation, right?
Yeah, I've thought about this, and I don't know.
I mean... He doesn't seem to have many memories from his childhood, at least he hasn't expressed many.
Even when hanging around his brother, you know, his brother would kind of, you know, just sort of question him when he wouldn't remember certain things about their childhood or just certain childhood events, you know.
But I... I don't know.
What I really don't understand is how...
His son, me, went through all these traumatic events and these major things that were really major in my life and if I bring him up to him, he just doesn't know.
He doesn't seem to know. It seems to me when I ask him, it's actually an honest effort from him.
He's like, I don't know. Wait, sorry, it's not like that, right?
I don't know. That doesn't sound like an honest effort to me, right?
Right, yeah, sorry, that was bad, but...
Go away, kid, you bother me!
You mean, like, he sits down and he tries to remember, like, his brow furrows, but he just says he can't?
Ah, yes.
I mean, I feel like he...
Well, that sounds pretty uncertain.
Yes?
Right.
Well, like I brought up in the post about a time that I was kicked out of daycare and like I brought up in the post about a time Recently, when we were driving in the car, I turned to him and asked him about that.
In one sentence, he really said that he couldn't remember.
I don't know his exact words, but then I would keep prodding.
I'd be like, well, do you remember any of the daycares I went to or anything like that?
He would kind of vaguely remember one.
It's always unsatisfying how little he remembers from my childhood.
Well, and again, not to invoke paranoia, but I don't know that we've established that he doesn't remember.
Right. He makes it appear that he doesn't.
He would say that he doesn't.
Right, and of course, without some sort of psychic helmet or CAT scan of the gods, we don't know, right?
But also we do, right?
Because there's a gut sense, right?
When you've known someone for 25 years...
Right. There's almost nothing that they can keep hidden from you, fundamentally, right?
Because if you don't, then you can't know anyone, right?
Yeah. Otherwise, you could get married to someone and 25 years later turn around and say, well, who the hell are you?
I don't know you at all, right?
I mean, that would be kind of weird, right?
Right. Yeah, it definitely benefits him, you know, because for him to...
I don't know. I suppose that he knows where I'm trying to go with this.
When I'm asking him these questions, I'm trying to lead into the conversation about my discomfort and how angry I am about my childhood.
Maybe it's just his defense to avoid going there.
I don't know. Well, you do, but we don't know before yet, right?
I mean, because, again, right?
You know, right? I mean, I'll give you some ways that I... I mean, none of this crap is guaranteed, and none of it is objective, and maybe none of it makes any sense, but I'll just toss out some things.
When I was... You know, hunting down the family beast of dark secrets.
The things that I found helpful as signposts along the way.
And you can tell me if they make any sense or not, or if they're useful, or I'm just full of a load of TCPIP internet nonsense.
But the one thing that I found very helpful was...
This sounds so ridiculous, it really does, when it comes to talking about family.
But, have you ever, I mean, you've been in a car, have you ever stopped and asked someone for directions, and that person doesn't know, but really wants to help?
Oh yes, I've done that myself.
Both sides of it, yes. Okay, so let's say I pull up in my dented, yelly Volvo, and I come up to you and I say, I want to get to X, and you don't know, but you're the kind of person who really likes to help.
You know, I mean, what are the kinds of things that you would do?
I might suggest the nearest gas station to ask for directions.
If I had any information at all, I would give it to him.
Any direction. If I knew half of the direction or which direction to go, I would give it to him.
Right. You'd say, show me your map.
I'm this kind of guy too.
Maybe it's sappy or maybe it's really good.
I think it's good, right? But I can phone someone who might know.
I've got a cell phone here.
Let me pop open your map and let's see if we can't figure out where you are.
Yeah, you're right. I mean, here's the directions to the gas station.
Or say, you know, I've even done it where I'm like, hang on, let me...
I'm not from around here.
If someone's, you know, obviously kind of confused and not in a good mood because they've been driving, oh, you know, you hang here, I'll just ask this person or I'll knock on this person's door and you can really help someone out.
And what does it take? Like five minutes, right?
But it's a big difference in their day and, you know, it's a positive thing for humanity in general and blah, blah, blah, right?
And so I'm sure you've been in those situations where, you know, you really want to help someone, and then what happens is you begin to take it personally if you can't, right?
Suddenly you feel like a bad person for not helping them, right?
So that can happen as well.
I mean, I remember I wanted to get a massage when I was away for a weekend, and the woman was booked, and she literally sat there for 20 minutes trying to get me an appointment with someone else.
I didn't even want to massage that, but I finally had to tell her to stop because, you know, she was helping me too much.
But... Do you know why I'm bringing this up?
Should I just tell you?
Oh, well, no. It makes sense to me that obviously my dad is not desperately wanting to try.
He'll just say he doesn't remember and then not speak a word about it after that and talk about the weather or whatever.
Yeah, see, that's not a good sign.
No, seriously. That's not a good sign.
Yeah, I know. You're right. Yeah, you're right.
Right? I mean, I know that I started it off kind of, you know, I want to make sure that this is not too grueling a conversation for you, right?
But it's not a good sign.
Because if you said, well, I want to know X about my childhood, and it was important to you, and obviously it's much more important to learn this stuff about your history than it is to get good directions for some place you're going, right?
I mean, this is your life, this is your history, this is your formative years, this is your crucible, right?
Yeah. So this is much more important than if you lost your wallet.
It's much more important than if you crashed your car, I mean, assuming you were healthy, I mean, physically okay, right?
This is really important stuff.
And he could, again, it's hard for us to think outside of the families that we live in and what is just taken for granted is how people act, but he could say, well, I don't remember But, so-and-so might, let's call him, or her, right?
Yeah. Or he could say, I don't remember, but tell me what you remember, and maybe that will help jog my memory.
Right? Right.
Or he could say, I don't remember, but you know what, when we get home, let's dig up some family photos from that time period, and maybe that will help.
Yeah. Do you see what I mean?
Yes. Yes, I do.
That's someone who genuinely doesn't want to remember but wants to be helpful.
I think one way that I might get myself in trouble with this is...
You know, I see him not doing this, and then I question...
I start to wonder if maybe it's just a lack of intelligence or if he just, for some reason, he just doesn't have the capacity of empathy that most people do and it just doesn't occur to him that it's that important to me.
Well no, you're telling him it's important.
I mean, you're not asking him to read your mind, right?
You're not talking to me saying, well, I haven't talked about it with him, but I really thought about it and he hasn't picked up on that, right?
Yeah. Tell me what's, I don't mean to get in your head, but tell me what you're feeling.
I sort of sensed your mood change there.
I don't know what that means. It's just the phone, right?
But what happened there?
Well, I'm just...
It's just true that I've made it very apparent that it's important to me.
And he hasn't tried at all to oblige me or even acknowledge anything about it.
Well, it's different, and I'm going to be as annoying as usual and precise, right?
It's not that he's done nothing, right?
He's actively avoiding it, right?
Right. And to put that in context, I don't know you from The Man and the Moon, right?
We've never met. From the audience, we've never met, right?
But I'm going to saw you in house, right?
But I don't know you from The Man and the Moon.
It was clear to me how important this was for you from your post.
I don't know you. I spent two and a half minutes reading your post, right?
And I thought, dear God, this thing is so important to this man who is Courageous and exploring his family and trying to get answers.
Right? I haven't known you for 25 years, right?
And I get that it's important to you.
Yeah.
So, he gets...
You can't give him the no empathy card.
I mean, you can. But if you give him the genuine no empathy card, that's really disastrous, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I know that's not good.
There's nothing worse, right?
No, seriously, there's nothing worse than my dad genuinely has no part of his brain which recognizes the needs and preferences of other people, or fundamentally, the emotional existence of other people, right? What do you mean here?
I'm sorry. You said that's bad, right?
I'm just, again, to be precise, that's the worst thing.
Because then there's no possibility of a relationship.
If he has no capacity to recognize in any real way your emotional preferences or fundamental existence, right?
Then there's no relationship, and there never can be, and there never was.
I'm not saying that's the case, right?
But if you say, well, he genuinely might not be able to process this, there's nothing worse than that, right?
You think that's worse than him having the capacity, but then choosing not to expose it to me?
Yeah. Yeah. I do.
And again, look, this is nonsense, right?
Because it's just my opinions, right?
I'll make the case for it.
I could be completely wrong, right?
But I'll make the case for it, right?
Okay. Because if he genuinely, we'll call it, is emotionally retarded, right?
Yeah. Lacks the capacity to process, right?
then there's nothing to break through and you don't get to be angry.
Again, don't get to be angry, I'm sorry.
Of course, you'd have to deal with that, right?
But if he genuinely doesn't have the capacity, then it's like yelling at somebody with an IQ of 60 for not knowing physics, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm struggling with this, and I'm really curious which one it is.
Well, you know which one it is.
I'm going to assume it's that he chose not to?
Well, if you're assuming it, and if you're trying to guess what I'm thinking, that means nothing, right?
Because he's not my dad, right? I don't know him at all, right?
Well, let me ask you, because this is the second part, right?
The first part is, I help strangers find a hotel for 10 minutes, right?
So why can't people in my family spend 10 minutes Genuinely trying to give me some answers.
Am I not more important than some random stranger in a car, right?
So that was the first thing we talked about.
Now the second thing that I got was I tried to read my own emotions during the interactions with my family during these conversations, right?
And of course it is my genuine hope and desire that Yours goes differently than mine, right?
But prepare for every contingency, right?
And when I felt frustration, right?
Because frustration is the key emotion, right?
when trying to figure out whether somebody is incapable or manipulating?
Well, I can tell you there's been a lot of frustration trying to get him to talk with me about it.
Yeah.
And that's hard for you, right?
Because I get a feeling that you're a very nice fellow, right?
Yes. I mean, you seem to me to be a very, very nice person.
And I bet you've got to think the best of people kind of habit and give people another chance and all that kind of stuff, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yep, that's accurate.
Consideratory to a fault, perhaps, right?
Benefit of the doubt to the point where you have no pants, right?
Yeah. I'm sure he'll be right back with my jeans, right?
Yeah. I think to the point where it's been unhealthy for me, really, but...
I agree, and again, not knowing you at all, I'm just, you know, totally flying blind here, right?
And the reason that I do this is not to impress anyone with my astuteness or anything, but just to point out that we can know a lot about people very quickly, right?
And so if your family claims not to know stuff about you, it's really hard to believe them, right?
Yeah. So, the frustration thing is hard for you, right?
To express. Like, do you say to your dad, oh my lord, I'm feeling such a wave of frustration.
I don't know, whatever, right?
However you would express that, right?
No, not through language.
I mean... There's times where I've talked to him and got pretty emotional on the phone.
He is well. He would get angry and I would in return get angry and tears would start to well up in my eyes because I was withholding my anger because he was just frustrating me so much with what he was saying.
Okay, so frustration to tears, and look, I totally, totally understand that, at least from where I'm coming from, which is not an important thing to understand about where you're coming from, but tell me about that transition, right?
You go from the frustration to the tears.
It's a helpless feeling.
Go on. It's a feeling that was very, very common in my childhood.
There were just so many times where, you know, I'd get in trouble for breaking some arbitrary rule or some argument with my stepsister.
And, you know, my dad would come into my room and try to talk to me about, you know, not, you know, whatever, just breaking the rule.
And I would try to...
I might try to express how he's being illogical and the rules don't make sense and my sister is able to do this and I'm not or something like that.
He'll just say don't backtalk and he doesn't want to reason it out.
He just wants me to listen.
That happened so many times where I just felt so helpless.
There was nothing I could say that would make him understand or that could change the situation.
It would only make it worse.
Right, right. And in my family, the phrase was, don't think, right?
So, of course, I have to become a philosopher, because I'm all about self-actualization and not reacting to the past.
But in my family, you know, my mother would give me some instruction, I'd follow it, she'd say it was the wrong instruction, and I would say, but I thought you said, don't think, right?
Which is kind of like, don't exist, right?
Right. Yeah, yeah.
My stepmother has said to me, you're too smart for your own good.
Yeah, and what she means is that you're too smart for our good, right?
Yeah. So with your dad, it was like, no backtalk, right?
Right.
What did that mean to you?
I sound like everyone orders today.
Go on! You do this in a German accent, you know, go on for the story!
But just, sorry, I meant that in a more inviting way.
Go on. Well, yeah, it was just...
It just reminds me of how many times he would enforce my stepmom's rules And then, when she wasn't around, it didn't matter.
I could do whatever.
I could break her pointless and nagging rules.
I think he realized that the rules that she enforced were quite irrational.
And so when I'm arguing or talking back, he realizes that he's a hypocrite, but what I think is to avoid his own anxiety with my stepmom,
to avoid conflict with her, he just would rather push me to the side than Then work it out as a family or discuss it with her.
Okay, push you to the side.
Tell me what that means.
I mean, I get it, but tell me what it means in more detail.
Yeah, I just mean that he...
managing his anxiety and avoiding conflict with my stepmother was more important Then, you know, discussing a rule that he might even agree makes no sense or is unfair to me.
He's willing to, you know, ground me for two days even though he believes that the rule is absurd.
He'll just follow it to avoid conflict.
And that just shows how...
Really little he cared for me.
That's what I got from it.
Right. Now, again, this is digging around with families.
We need those brushes.
We need lasers. We need those little archaeology brushes.
We need to be so careful and delicate, at least in my experience with the language we use.
You said that he did this to avoid conflict.
Of course that's not true because he had conflict with you, right?
Yeah. Right, so it's not, he didn't do this, again, this is just an annoyingly precise way of looking at it, which I think is important.
Yeah. It's not that he wanted to avoid, I mean, he didn't want to avoid conflict because he had conflict with you, right?
Right.
So what's another way of putting that that would be more precise and accurate to the situation?
Well, he wanted to avoid conflict with his wife.
Um.
And I understand the reason that I'm pushing you on this, and I apologize, but there's lots of ways to avoid conflict with your wife, right?
I mean, you can leave her.
Right? That's a pretty good way of minimizing conflict in the long run, right?
Right. You can not get married to her in the first place, right?
Yeah. You can go to counseling, right?
You can sit down and you can say, look, this isn't working.
This thing where you have all these rules and I end up in conflict with my kids.
That's not... Helpful, that's not going to work, so we need to figure something else out, right?
And take a stand, right?
Not in an aggressive way, but just saying, look, there's no work here, right?
There's lots of ways to avoid conflict with people, right?
Yeah. And it would have been more productive, right?
Like he would have actually avoided conflict because he wouldn't have gotten to these constant battles with you, right?
Yeah.
So now I'm trying to understand why he...
I mean, do you think part of it would be...
That he, oh man, is it because he wants to be with somebody?
He's afraid of being lonely?
Is that what would keep him from leaving her?
I mean, it's pretty apparent that he is not one to leave a relationship.
No matter how much crap is thrown at him, he's going to stay.
Right, and technically you may want to, I don't know if you have, but the codependent is the term, right?
You can't Can't exist outside of a relationship and is unthinkable to...
Anyway, that's just something to look up.
And again, this armchair nonsense amateur diagnosis, but you may want to look that term up and see a little bit more about it because I'm sure there will be a lot of stuff that's familiar, right?
Yeah. And the one thing that I've noticed...
Again, all amateur nonsense.
But the one thing that I've noticed with codependence is they align themselves to the person who is the most primitive, the most coarse, the most unpleasant.
And it is always the most rational, the most reasonable, the kindest people who get screwed, frankly.
Like, the bad people get rewarded with conformity.
And the good people get punished with no backtalk, don't think, right?
Right. How's your dad around authority figures?
teachers, doctors, cops, that kind of stuff?
Keeps the conversation to a minimum, really.
You know, just wants to... Agree with them and do what they want, you know, don't cause trouble.
Right, okay, okay.
So your dad, if I understand this rightly, your dad exists in a kind of one-dimensional pecking order without a lot of room, without any room really for negotiation, right?
Right. Like, because he's got to do what his wife says, you have to do what he says.
Because he's not allowed to negotiate with her, you're not allowed to negotiate with him, right?
Yeah. Again, I'm just throwing darts over the house, seeing if I hit anything, right?
But let me know if this makes any sense.
Yeah, that makes sense to me.
So he's going to...
Sorry, I'm sorry, go ahead. You should do the talking, because it's your family.
Go on. The one thing I struggle with is just understanding why he would be that way.
Like, what in his childhood would make him act the way he does and just be so passive and just let people walk all over him in most cases.
Nothing. Nothing. And again, this is the precision that we need, right?
There's nothing in his childhood that would make him do that.
Like, childhood is not possession, right?
It's not like there's a guy moving the levers of our arms from our childhood, right?
It's not deterministic.
It doesn't make people do anything.
We have our histories which give us certain habits, right?
And we can either have those habits or we can change those habits, right?
But there's nothing that makes people do stuff from their childhood, if that makes...
Because it seems like you're trying to reach past his adult responsibilities and say, well, the cause of his behavior is in his childhood.
No. The cause of his behavior is in his choices.
Not in his childhood.
And you know how I know that?
Because that's not what you're doing.
You're doing something different, though you didn't have a great childhood, to say the least, right?
Yeah. Yeah. It's so frustrating though.
But why? It annoys me so much how he can act so nice to me and pretend like nothing ever happened or it's in the past.
It wasn't his fault. I don't know.
You're looking for an answer in him.
The answer is not in him. And I totally understand why you're looking for an answer in him, but the answer's not in him.
I know I just said it's his choices, and now I'm saying the answer's not in him.
I hope I'm not just being annoying, you know, sound of one hand clapping guy.
I might be, but I'll tell you what I mean, and then you can say, Steph, you're full of crap, right?
If I am, right? Please do.
The reason that He's treating you the way he's treating you as an adult.
It's two words.
Very simple. Oh, you'll kick yourself.
Or you might kick me for being too simplistic.
We'll see. It's two words.
It works.
It works, right?
You ask for stuff about your childhood.
He fogs, evades, changes the topic, talks about the weather.
It works, right?
You're like, okay, I guess we'll go this way, right?
Yeah, you're exactly right.
So it's like saying...
And I don't mean to trivialize it, and I mean this with all sympathy, right?
But it's like saying...
Why does the guy who spends counterfeit money in my restaurant keep spending counterfeit money in my restaurant?
Because you keep taking it!
Right? There's only one restaurant that takes his counterfeit money and you're that restaurant and then you say, well, why does he keep spending his money here?
Because nobody else will take his money.
And you do.
As if it's real, right?
Does this make any sense?
And I'm not blaming you.
I hope you understand. I'm not blaming you because you have to take this money.
You're the kid, right? But now you don't, right?
That's why I was Going on and on about this voluntary thing, right?
Yeah, yeah, I know that now.
You know, it has huge implications for my identity, my self-esteem.
Okay, well, let's hold off on the huge implications, right?
Because I just fed you a bit of a bomb, right?
So just the process-y thing?
Like, what does that mean?
Like, when I say, it works, and that's why he does it.
And the answer is in you, not in him.
Tell me what that means for you.
I don't know if it makes sense.
I feel that it's true, but I'm having...
I feel all... It's foggy-headed, now that you've said it.
I'm having a hard time thinking about it now.
And do you know why that's happening?
Why's that? Look at that, you're fucking me now.
Well, when you confront your father, what happens, right?
What happens? Or when you confront, when you say, I want this piece of information, or I'd like to talk about that, or something like that.
What happens? What does he do?
He claims he knows nothing and changes the subject.
Right, so he flunks you, right?
Yeah. And...
So, when I give you a kind of power or authority in your relationship with your father by saying, he does it because you let him do it, because it works, right then the next thing that happens is what for you he gets foggy when confronted right
In a sense, I confront you, and what do you do?
I seem to be getting a little bit foggy.
And you know what's beautiful about that?
Is you actually used the phrase, seem to.
Which itself is foggy.
It's beautiful. Yes. Form and function together at last.
But didn't this occur, right?
Suddenly you got, I could feel your brain hemisphere separating like the Death Star at the end of the movie, right?
It really is.
It really is. You're suddenly like, huh?
Right? Yeah.
But that's your empathy, right?
For your dad, right? I don't mean sympathy, but you're empathizing with what he's doing, right?
Because in your family, when people get close to the truth, the fog machine goes on, right?
Yes, I've seen it before, heard it before.
Right, and now you've seen it from inside the fog machine, right?
Yeah, it's pretty amazing.
And it works on a lot of people, right?
Yeah. It doesn't work so well on me, right?
Just because I've so scathingly tried to examine everything in my life that I don't have a huge amount left that I know of that's foggy, right?
It doesn't mean that it won't come out.
So when I say, he does it because you let him, that is empowering.
It's annoying, but it's empowering, right?
Yeah. And it takes some of the mystery out of it, right?
Yes, it does. So tell me, what are you experiencing, what are you thinking, what are you feeling?
I still feel foggy.
But...
What is the fog around?
Just because I know it's hard to talk about what you feel.
What is the fog surrounding?
What's the fog around?
Because it came right up when I said he does it because you let him do it, right?
Because it works.
Yeah. Well, then I'm asking...
You know, that's...
That's pretty evil on his part, and how could he do that to me?
That's the fog.
go on well you know he acts so innocent but when you put it in this context you know he's doing it because it works and it's worked very effectively um you know it really makes him look like an asshole um Okay, and maybe he is, right?
As we all know, I don't have a...
I don't recoil from that term, so tell me.
Tell me what it means.
If this is the case, right?
Again, we're just theorizing here, right?
But this is the second time you've used the word, and I don't want to pretend like you haven't, right?
So what does that mean?
I'm sorry, can you...
Sorry, I went on with a long tangent there and then you forgot the question because you're foggy and because I was too long.
So if it's true, like he's just trying to get away with what he can get away with, right?
And he couldn't get away with saying to his wife...
No backtalk, right?
So he didn't. But he could get away with it, with you, because you were a helpless dependent child, right?
So that's what he did. What can I get away with?
What can I... There's no better way to put it.
What can I get away with, right?
Oh, this person has more power than I do, so I will conform to them like water to a vase.
Oh, this person has less power, so I will cause them to conform to me like water in a vase, right?
It's just a power hierarchy manipulation based on who has the more threat to who, right?
So if that is the case, and I'm not saying it is, right?
But it certainly fits some of the symptoms, right?
It's not a clincher, right? But if that's the case, and the two times we've touched on that being a possibility, you've said, you know, maybe he's an asshole, right?
Mm-hmm. So, play that out for me, if you don't mind, a little more.
What does that mean?
Tell me what does that mean to you.
Tell me what does that mean. What is an asshole?
Someone who knows they are doing something wrong or evil or mean, but does it anyway, even though They don't have to.
Yeah, someone who takes the path of least resistance, is that what you mean?
Yeah, I mean, he's taking advantage of me for his own benefit, in a way.
Taking advantage of you, and again, I'm sorry to keep interrupting you, I just want to make sure I understand exactly what you're saying, or as close to it as I can.
Taking advantage of you for his own benefit, that means saying no backtalk to you so that he doesn't have to stand up to his wife.
Yes. Okay, right.
Without a doubt, sacrificing the self-esteem, self-confidence and integrity of your children because you are too big of a fraidy cat to stand up to your wife.
Yeah. To me, that's in the bucket called asshole.
So I'm with you there.
Again, we don't know because he's not my dad, right?
But it certainly does fit with some of the symptoms, right?
Yeah. But go on.
I just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying about your dad there, what you meant when you said sacrifice you for his own gain.
It means cause you to conform and not to be able to reason and negotiate and think and trust your own judgment, but just get you to shut up and obey so that...
You don't get him in trouble with his wife.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, I can tell you that since you've said that he does it because it works, I've lost a lot of empathy for his situation.
I mean, I've At least I'm not going back to that right now where I feel sort of sorry for him or want to find out why what has caused him to act the way he did.
Right. Right.
Right. And I can tell you something I believe for sure.
I think it's a little more than opinion but I'm not going to say it's fact.
I can virtually guarantee you that the way that your father acts towards you now has so much more to do with how he treated you when you were a child rather than how he was treated when he was a child.
I agree with that.
That seems to fit very well.
then you can try and explain it to me because I'm not sure exactly how to put it.
So go ahead.
Well, he is completely aware.
I really do think that he is aware of what he has done and how there's There's probably a part of him that I would hope there's a part of him that feels guilty for what happened to me.
I mean, the way he treats me now is just, you know, speaking super, really gentle and doesn't want to, you know, like if he wants to do something with me, like if he, in the past few years, if he's invited me to go somewhere with him, like out to dinner, you know, the language he uses is so gentle.
It's like, If it's alright with you, if you're not too busy, if you don't have anything better to do or more important to do, he's really soft-spoken with me.
And was he ever like that when you were a child?
No, this seems to...
I mean, if it was, it was much more rare than it is now.
I mean, he's always like that.
Until you bring up...
I'm so sorry, go ahead.
Well, I was just going to say, until you bring up something that he doesn't want to get into, like for his marriages or my childhood, then he doesn't speak so gently anymore.
But other than that, just normal conversation, passing conversation, he's really gentle now.
Okay, and if we have this rough possible thesis that he's navigating a power structure, right?
then how would that help to possibly frame what he's doing now?
now why do you mean with you now than when you were a child because i have a lot more power now Yeah. He doesn't have power over you, right?
So he's submissive. In the same way that he was submissive to his wife when she had power over him, right?
In the same way that you had to be submissive to him When he had power over you.
Yeah. That's right.
Now, the moment you want something from him, what happens?
Who gets the power?
The moment you need something from him that you can't get on your own, like his memory about this or an apology or whatever, right?
What happens? Does he have power or do you have power?
He has the power.
And how does he deal with you when he has the power?
Just very dismissive.
Yeah, he's not so gentle anymore, right?
Yeah. I will tell you this, from personal experience, I believe this to be core To healthy relationships.
Because you're going to talk to him on Friday, right?
Which is great. Good for you.
Yeah. Having a relationship with someone where you really...
I'm just going to talk about it with my wife.
I'm sorry to switch relationships completely.
But I need her so much.
I want her so much.
I go running down the stairs when she comes home.
I'm just thrilled. I love talking to her during the day.
My happiness is so dependent upon her.
Now, right? We've been married for six years.
Seven years. Oh God, I'm in trouble.
So she has a huge amount of power over me.
More power than anyone in the world.
Over me, right? I mean, she woke up tomorrow and she said, that's it, I'm leaving you, right?
But fine, just don't tell the listeners.
Because I have to be happily married to be credible.
No, I'm kidding. I mean, I would be beyond devastated.
It would just be the end of my world, right?
Yeah. And I think that's healthy.
I genuinely and completely believe that that vulnerability and raw need for someone...
Is healthy. Because I don't manipulate her with it.
And she doesn't owe it to me.
I have to earn her love and respect, right?
Right. By doing stupid, courageous things like taking on the British media, right?
And so...
When you're in a relationship, especially one that is as involuntarily, quote, intimate as...
A parent-child relationship.
But I would say this with friends, I would say this with lovers, with spouses, and so on.
It's so important to really see and feel and understand how does this person handle power.
When I need something from this person, how do they handle it?
When I want something from this person, how do they handle it?
Do they become haughty and withdrawn and withholding?
Or do they rush to provide what I need because they love me?
If I forget my slippers when I'm showering at night, my wife will bring my slippers and put them outside the shower my wife will bring my slippers and put them outside the shower door, or the towel or Okay.
Yeah. How does this person handle power?
Because there's power in all relationships.
Obviously, all relationships have power.
There's no way to avoid it.
And if you have someone in your life who is, who navigates power, right?
When he doesn't have power, he's Gollum-y, right?
But then when he does have power, he kind of reverts to, to mix my metaphors, Darth Vader, right?
Yeah. Then you can't actually trust that person.
Because you can't ever give them power over you because it actually just turns them into a nice person, to say the least, right?
And I always try to suggest that this is why I suggest the RTR, the openness, the vulnerability, Give The people in your life power over you.
Be vulnerable.
Show your need. Show how important it is.
And you're pulling back from that, right?
With your dad. Yeah, I pull back once I see that he's going to abuse that power.
Right. And that's not good.
That's bad, right?
Why is that bad?
I mean, pick one of a thousand things, but why is that bad?
Well, it's not a healthy relationship.
Oh, how generic can you get?
Yeah. Suboptimal.
It is manually dysfunctional.
Right, okay. Could you give me something a little less rote?
Good try, though. It's an excellent foggy jackson.
I have to wipe myself now.
Well, it's just going to continue.
Oh, sorry. Blue fog facial. That was just what the phrase did.
Sorry, go on. Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's going to enable that pattern.
I mean, I'm not breaking the pattern.
I'm just letting it go on and letting it work.
Right. You don't get close and you don't get away.
You're in the null zone, right?
Yeah, yeah. You're managing him like he was managing his wife, right?
You're... Navigating power the way he does.
Ooh, I want this. Ooh, I'm not going to get away with it.
Okay, I'll withdraw. I'll try again later.
Blah, blah, blah. You're just navigating power, like a blind man in a crowd of people with cattle prods, right?
Oh, can't go that way.
Oh, I'll try this. All right. You're a liquid, not a solid, right?
Oh, I want to learn about my childhood.
Oh, I'll ask this. Oh, he doesn't seem to like that.
Okay, I'll try changing tack. I'll try this.
You're just, right?
Yeah. You're trying to pickpocket what's yours.
Right? No, Dad.
I want to know. I want to know.
I need to know. It's very painful for me.
It's very frustrating for me when you dodge like this.
I don't like it. I don't like it.
And if he's like, too bad, right?
Then you have received some very important information.
But you have to be vulnerable.
You have to give people power.
If they're going to be in your life.
And see what they do with it.
Do they get slippers?
or do they say no backtalk?
My childhood was unhappy.
I need answers.
It is so important to me.
I need this like a man in the desert needs water.
I'm dying for this.
I need it. Need.
If you don't have needs, you don't have a relationship, right?
Yeah. I need to talk to my wife.
I really want to see her.
I really, you know. If you don't have needs, it's indifference, right?
It's like going to Starbucks. I don't need to talk to the barista.
I just need a coffee, right?
We've got to have open, naked needs in relationships.
Otherwise, it's not a relationship. And of course, it's mutual.
My wife can have needs, obviously, right?
In fact, if she didn't, it would not be good at all, right?
It would kind of creep me out, right? I think those are the acrylic women with the permanently surprised expression and bits of Kleenex in the hair.
So I don't want you to manage your needs and to try and wheedle what you want out of your dad and get frustrated.
No! Have naked need.
Go all out. Be completely open and completely vulnerable.
And completely honest.
How does he handle power over you?
How does he handle it when you desperately need something from him?
With tenderness, with gentleness, with appreciation, with respect for your vulnerability and your strength and your honesty?
With tenderness, with solicitude, with concern, with love, with curiosity?
Not perfectly. Nobody's perfect, right?
But in general.
When you give him the Faberge egg of your deepest human needs, what does he do?
I don't think he's going to.
Now, if you can't do it with me, you can't do it with your dad, right?
Just because I'm some stranger, right?
So if you're going to give me little laughs when you pass this sentence on your dad, I'm not going to know what you're talking about.
It really confuses me, right?
It's a little frustrating. Yeah, okay.
Because this is very serious stuff, right?
I mean, we've joked, and I don't mean to suddenly rip off the Joker mask, Batman, right?
But this is very serious stuff, right?
I mean this is your childhood this is your father this is your family this is this is the pain right that you have yeah
and my gut tells me that I'm going to be very unsatisfied with his responses and I think you know I'm going to be I'm going to be doing all the driving in the conversation on Friday and Unsatisfied? What does that mean?
Sounds like it, you know, I didn't order quite enough Chinese.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you use language that's very small relative to the situation.
Well, what I want from him is I want him to recognize what I went through and his responsibility for that.
Oh, no, no, no. That's not good.
That's not gonna work. It's not gonna work.
At all. Yeah?
No, it's not.
Why is that not going to work?
You mean in the way that I'm saying it like I'm blaming him?
Or I'm accusing him?
That is a dishonest aim to go into in any conversation.
Because it's automatically manipulative.
And you're powerless.
You can't make him do anything.
The goal is what you can control, right?
not what he may or may not do.
Yeah, you're right.
So what would that mean?
The reason that I'm going into this conversation is for myself.
And I mean, you're right.
I don't know for sure what...
What's going to happen with the relationship?
Okay, you're floundering.
You're the guy who read RTR twice, right?
No, I just got through reading it.
Oh, okay, okay. So, once.
The only thing you can control, my friend, is your commitment to honesty, openness, and vulnerability.
That's all you can control in the conversation.
If you try to get something from your dad, if you try to get your dad to do something, that's why I was alarmed by the use of the word unsatisfying.
Because I'll tell you, if you make the commitment to be honest and vulnerable with your father, and the whole thing blows up, I can tell you it will be a lot of things.
It will not be unsatisfying.
Because you will have been with yourself with honor and with dignity and with honesty in a very difficult situation.
Because direct honesty and vulnerability cannot be manipulated because you can only be manipulated if you're trying to manipulate someone.
Do you see what I mean?
If I don't have a goal to change you, I can't be manipulated.
If I don't have a goal to get something out of you which is fundamentally manipulative or to get you to do something, I can't be manipulated in return.
Right. Because if you go in there trying to get something, he'll play you like a fish, right?
Because you already tried that a bunch of times, right?
And as you said, it's unsatisfying, right?
Exactly. So your commitment, I strongly suggest, is...
I'm going to be as honest, as in the moment, as open.
And if I burst into tears, I burst into tears.
And if I get really angry, I won't be abusive, but I will say, I'm really angry.
And if my hands shake, my hands shake.
And if I have to throw up, I have to throw up.
Whatever, right? But my commitment is going to be to be honest, direct, and provide genuine, authentic feedback about what I'm thinking and feeling to the other person.
Not I want my dad to do X or to admit Y or to whatever, right?
Do you see what I mean?
Because then you're just bringing the most you you can bring to the interaction, to the conversation, right?
And you can control that, how honest you are.
you can't control what other people do with it.
And the moment you try to control what other people are going to do, you can no longer be authentic.
This is an Aristotelian either-or, right?
You're either authentic or you're trying to control other people.
You're either intimate or you're trying to manipulate other people.
You're either being honest or you're trying to get people to do something.
You're either going in with the goal to be direct and open and vulnerable or you're going in to try and change someone or achieve something.
Am I making any sense at all?
I can't tell. Yeah, I think so.
And a thought that just popped in my mind is that if I go in there trying to get him to express some empathy towards me or apologize or something like that, I think He might, he'll play me.
Oh yeah, no question.
He'll see that and then, yeah.
And the reason that won't work as well is because if you go in there trying to get him to express empathy for you, you're actually not going in there with empathy for yourself.
So you're asking him to do something that you're not even doing.
Right? Can you explain that a little more?
If you're open and honest about what you're thinking and feeling, what you're focusing on is yourself, right?
Not in a narcissistic or selfish way, but you can't be with someone unless you know what you're experiencing, right?
Do you see what I mean?
Yes.
You can't interact with someone unless you know what you're feeling, unless you're self-empathizing, right?
Because you can't be honest unless you know what you're being honest about, right?
You can't express your feelings or your thoughts if you don't know what they are, and you can never know what they are if you're focusing on controlling the other person or trying to get something, right?
All you're doing is scanning, right?
It's like trying to do an x-ray with radar, right?
It's just pointing the complete wrong way.
Yeah. So if you go into the conversation, and you can pause, right?
I remember in my conversations with my family, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I'm sorry. I completely lost track of myself here.
Give me a sec, right? What am I thinking?
What am I feeling? When did I start to stop Being who I am.
Take your breaks. Take, you know, take your pauses.
Get back to yourself. Center yourself, right?
Because the goal is to bring who you are to the people around you.
Right? Not to try and get them to whatever, whatever, right?
Because it's powerless. Oh, if only my father would acknowledge my pain, that would be so much better.
He better acknowledge my pain, because otherwise I'd be unsatisfied.
But that's doing to him in a completely different power context, of course, right?
But that's doing to him what he did to you.
Using him for your own anxiety management, for your own emotional preferences.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And again, I'm not putting you in the same category because you're the child and he's the father, right?
right?
But I'm talking about your future, right?
But we go in just trying to be who we are, you know, taking the breaks we need, pausing, recentering, re-communicating, If we find that we are becoming manipulative, we say, I'm so sorry, let me stop because I think I'm becoming manipulative, give me a sec.
Or we say, what are you feeling, right?
This is what it means to connect to someone.
You have to first connect to yourself.
Right? And what do I do when he doesn't engage me?
You know what to do when he doesn't engage you.
You say, I feel X. I think X. You don't say, well, you're just not engaging me.
Because that's a judgment.
It's a conclusion, right? And it's not honest.
The honesty is...
When you didn't respond to me there, I felt X. Right?
Right, right. And then if he tries to manipulate you, you say, you know, when you started saying this, I felt even worse.
I felt this, this, and this.
Right? Well, you're just being a pussy.
I mean, I'm being ridiculous, right?
And you say, well, when you said you're just being a pussy, it felt to me like the ground was opening up.
I felt scared.
I felt angry.
I felt hurt. Right?
What the hell are you trying to pull?
You know, when you just barked at me now, I felt even more.
And you just keep doing it, right?
You just keep being honest about what your experience is of the other person without trying to get them to do anything.
Yeah, I can already feel some emotion from you talking about that sort of interaction.
and I don't know.
I just feel kind of a sad feeling thinking about that.
Right.
And I think that's important, right?
That's an important feeling. I don't want to keep you up all night, right?
But I think that's really important because That's what you need in this conversation, is to bring who you are to your father.
Naked, vulnerable, exposed, honest, and not trying to hedge your bets, and not trying to, well, I'll give an inch and see if he gives an inch, and I'll try and get this.
Because then you guys are just shadowboxing, right?
You're not really talking.
So, what do you think would be a good approach to starting that conversation?
Well, based on what you've just said now, it would be something like, I don't even know how to start this conversation.
I've been thinking about this for weeks.
I'm terrified to even bring this up.
I'm angry that I have to bring it up.
My hands are shaking on the wheel when I drove over here.
Whatever your experience is in the moment, do you see?
There's no plan. You might show up there and feel incredibly calm.
And then you say, I've been thinking about this for weeks.
I was completely terrified.
I show up now.
I'm very calm.
Whatever is occurring for you in the moment, do you see?
See, there's no plan.
There is only truth and honesty.
There is no plan because plans dehumanize, plans manipulate, plans control.
Plans hedge your bets, right?
Right, right. And we don't hedge our bets in our relationships.
We open our heart.
And then people can throw darts at our heart and it hurts like hell.
And then we can not be with those people.
But if you're in the middle and manipulating and shadowboxing and trying to do this, you're just stuck in that null zone, right?
Get it good or get it gone.
Break through or break your heart, one or the other.
And you do this for your kids, right?
Oh, yes. For you, first and foremost, right?
So your kids can have a different future.
Yes. I would never...
I mean, I would try to be the best father I could and always ask for...
You have to get over this thing where you're trying to control the relationship, right?
Control the interaction. Yeah, you're right.
I mean, I know I have a very large urge to do that.
We all do. We all do.
I mean, God, don't get me wrong.
I do, right? I have to literally close my eyes to figure out what I'm feeling in these conversations.
And I want to say, oh, let's go this way.
So we all do, right?
I totally understand it.
I'm on no pedestal here, right?
I'm struggling like everyone else, right?
But this is the commitment.
Yeah, yeah.
Is there anything else you wanted to add?
Well, first of all, let me just ask you, how was the call for you, right?
I mean, we had almost an hour and a half.
There was a good old workout.
out?
I mean, compared to before or now, how is it anything that I could differently or better or worse or whatever?
I feel like you've sort of You've clarified a lot for me.
I mean, there's a lot of questions I've had.
Just little things.
I just had so many questions about what if he says this or that or whatever, but...
I mean, I think if I can just maintain that mind frame just to stay honest and not...
Not have a goal, not try to get him to say a certain thing, and just let him respond how he will.
I mean, yeah, I don't know for sure what to expect, but in my own self-interest, you know, I really need to do this.
and I think your work and your suggestions are extremely helpful.
You'll let us know how it goes?
I'm sure Friday evening I'll be creating a post and I'll let you know.
Well, you know, listen, I wish you the best of luck.
I really do. You know, if it goes well, I mean, seriously, I mean, other than you and maybe a couple other people, no one else could be happier, right?
So that would thrill me, right?
But, you know, set him free.
The only way you can set him free to be who he really is is if you just set yourself free to be who you really are, to be honest.
Now, there's one more thing I wanted to ask that just came to mind.
My therapist recently has said that I shouldn't go into this conversation expecting a black or white result.
It's either I will or will not have a relationship with my father from here on out.
What do you think about that?
Well, I don't know.
Who can tell?
Right? Because that's planning, right?
Yeah. Right?
I can tell you that for myself, it wasn't one conversation.
At all. But, there is no...
I mean, you will get very quickly to the reality of your relationship, or lack thereof, or possibilities for it.
But, yeah, it's not likely to be one conversation that, you know, whew, you know, all done, right?
One way or the other. Because, look, I mean, you have to remember, too, you're bringing something very new to your dad, so he might freak out a bit, it's going to be unsettling for him, you've had lots of preparation, he hasn't, right?
So, you know, you don't have to make a decision Friday, right?
You might, but the decision won't be made, the decision will just happen.
Yeah, I agree.
Does that...
It's another annoying non-answer right now.
But does that help a little? Yeah, I think it's...
I think you're right that it'll just...
It'll be clear to me.
Sitting here right now, I'm so unsure about what could possibly happen, but...
In the moment, I think it will become clear whether or not it's worthwhile to continue on or if I need to move on or not.
That will come out of your feelings, right?
The host RTR is always with yourself, right?
So you'll say afterwards, okay, how do I feel about that?
How do I think about that?
If you can tape it for your own listening, that can be helpful.
But you'll come out of it and you'll feel a certain way and you'll sit on it and you'll mull about it and you'll journal about it.
You'll talk about it with friends and you'll talk about it with your therapist.
And then you'll say, do I want to go back?
And if you feel ambivalent or you feel like there was a breakthrough, then you'll want to go back.
But you trust your feelings, right?
Yeah. Was that the last question?
Yeah, I think...
No, I think...
Yeah, you've been very helpful.
You've cleared up a lot and made me feel...
RTR really...
Just thinking about expressing your feelings in the moment seems to make me feel more comfortable about Stepping in there and talking to them because I guess it allows me not to have to worry about the outcome as much and just let it happen.
RTR is letting go of false control, right?
RTR is exactly the same as saying, praying doesn't cure my ailments, right?
Because it's a false control, right?
And saying, well, I'm going to find some way to get what I want without being authentic and honest, it's false control.
It doesn't work, right? Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, it is fundamentally very relaxing, right?
Because you said to me before the call, you know, let me send you this, you know, I have a recording of my dad, but I don't need that, and that's why I said don't send it to me, because...
I can see how I feel when you're talking, right?
I can say, okay, am I spacing out a little bit here?
Well, maybe that's because he's not communicating in any concrete terms.
Or, like, do I find his answer funny when he's being foggy?
Let me talk about... You know what I mean?
Like, I just have to figure out what I'm feeling about what you're saying and try and communicate about that and give you honest feedback.
I don't need that kind of preparation, right?
Right. Other than the tens of thousands of hours I did before, right?
Exactly. That's...
It's in the moment, and I don't have an outcome for this conversation.
I'm not trying to get you to do X or to do Y, right?
So I don't...
I can just tell you what I'm thinking and feeling about what you're saying in the moment, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep. I definitely appreciate you taking this call with me.
I appreciate you taking it.
As you know, these are often the seeds of podcasts, but I will send you...
If you can send me your email, I'll send you a link to it and have a listen to it.
Let me know what you think. Okay.
Yeah, I'll definitely do that. Thanks, man.
Alright, have a great night. Yeah.
And best of luck. Yeah, you too.
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