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Nov. 30, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:27:30
1224 Mother Daughter Thanksgiving -- Convo
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Time Text
So, yeah, you had prepared something, as you said, that you wanted to read to your mom?
Yes. And what was that?
You can read it or not. I'm curious what the general thing was about it.
Well, actually, what had happened was I had written...
I was trying to get some feelings out from earlier in the day because I had gone to Thanksgiving with my dad and my stepmom I had previously told my mom I didn't want to go to theirs because I didn't really tell her why.
I told her, look, I just don't think I want to do that side of the family this year.
Hello? Am I still on?
You're right. Sorry about that. Go ahead.
Okay. I had written out my feelings about Early in the day I was trying to figure out why I was so anxious and I got home and I just started writing and it really wasn't going in any direction specifically but it kept going back to my mom's house and the way I was treated with my stepdad and I think what started the anxiety was when I was at my dad and stepmom's side of the family's get-together,
they had mentioned my brother, my older brother.
And my older brother is actually a verified genius, quote unquote.
And he recently graduated with his PhD and everything.
And for some reason that just kind of made me feel like I needed to sink down.
And from there, that's where I started when I was writing, and it pretty much got down to the nitty gritty of what my stepdad used to do.
And I had finished with what I would say to my mom if I were who I was today then, if I were able to say what I was feeling and thinking then.
And then she called me.
And I was pretty much in a puddle of tears at this point.
And she called me and she's like, are you okay?
And I said, no, not really.
And usually when I talk to my mom, I'm very composed and a certain way with her.
Kind of like going to tea with a friend.
But this time, it was completely different.
I was actually very angry at my mom at that point.
I mean, I'd gone through the feelings of sadness and despair and anger.
And then she called me and it was like, holy crap, you know?
And she said, do you want to talk about it?
And I said, well, would you like to hear it?
I didn't get to the point of what I had written, which is actually on my blog.
I hadn't gotten to the point where I had pretty much disclosed my feelings toward my little brother have been affected by this.
I essentially got to where I hated my little brother because I was expected to watch him while my parents went out.
When they came home, I got blamed for everything that got destroyed, not by my mom, but by my stepdad.
It was like I absolutely had no time to relax.
And so I got to about the point when I was describing how I felt when my stepdad kept taking the stick and just poking the bear, I guess you could say.
Trying to get me angry, so I would almost react, but I'd have to swallow it, and that's when she said, well, I know you had a bad day, and I know you're looking for somebody to blame, but I was just calling to wish you Happy Thanksgiving.
Right. Go on.
And she absolutely, In everything I had said, it wasn't acknowledged.
It was just like, I'm going to have to leave you with this right here because I see you're having a hard time.
So I'm going to turn around and walk out of the room and this is yours to deal with pretty much.
And I hung up on her and I've never hung up on my mother ever.
Right. Right.
Right. And since then...
Well, there was something you had written to me about another topic we were going to discuss and I actually got to a point in another chat with somebody to where I was talking about these things and they were coming out and I had absolutely no emotion whatsoever.
Actually, I think it kind of borderline a hate machine.
And from there, I really haven't been able to empathize with anybody and I felt awful about it.
It's like... Sorry, sorry.
I just... Sorry to interrupt.
I just lost a little bit of track of what you were saying.
The topic that we had talked about as maybe talking about this week, I got...
I understood and I'm sorry, I just...
I lost attention for a moment and I then...
I don't want you to keep going if I missed a point.
So can you just go back to that and then tell me what happened from there to where you lost the empathy?
Well... I had engaged in chat with another member that I had been talking to and I was trying to just have a very calm and a conversation to where I wasn't having to discuss these things anymore about what had happened with my mom because I was very obviously upset about it but I had calmed down a little bit and I really don't remember what started it but I've had great difficulty talking about the issue that we were going to discuss later on,
and it all just came out.
But I had absolutely no real tangible emotion, I guess you could say.
Sorry to interrupt, but when you say it all came out, you mean This topic that you and I were going to talk about came out, you were talking about it with someone or came out to yourself?
I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.
It came out in the chat conversation.
Okay, it came out in the chat conversation.
Okay. Okay.
But you weren't, so it came out like facts about your history, but you couldn't feel the feelings.
Is that right? That you felt non-empathetic about it?
Nothing at all.
It was just there.
Like I could reach out and touch it because it's words and it's true, but there's nothing attached to it at all.
Just so I can place this in time sequence, this is after this conversation about the topic that you and I had touched on last week in the chat window where you expressed but couldn't feel.
That came after the conversation with your mother, is that right?
Right. Was it the next day or the same day?
This was actually just maybe a couple hours.
After? After I talked to my mom.
And like I said, I just wanted to have a calm conversation.
I guess maybe even to a level of fake.
And that's probably not right, but it's all I knew I could do at that point.
I had started to feel a little bit calmer about it, but I still hadn't dealt with That feeling that I got when my mom said what she said.
Yeah, I mean, that's where I think it's important to focus on, because it seems that that was something that cut a kind of connection with yourself, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly.
Right. Sorry, that right, I wasn't sure if...
Yes. It sounds very tentative.
And I always want to start from the facts, right?
So if the sequence was you prepared a letter or a set of talking points about your childhood, you began with your mother, your mother did what she did, a few hours later the truth about some other topic which was very sensitive came out and you've been unable to feel empathy.
I'm not trying to minimize it, I'm just trying to make sure I understand the general sequence.
Actually, that's about it in a nutshell.
Right. That's how it happened.
And it makes perfect sense to me that it happened that way, which doesn't mean anything other than it makes sense to me, but it's not confusing to me, which doesn't mean that what I think about it is right or anything.
It just isn't confusing to me.
It may be confusing to you because you're in it, right?
It's less confusing to an outsider, I would suspect.
Probably. It's very confusing to me.
So, I'm happy to talk about anything you want to talk about, or just listen if you want to talk, but my gut tells me that the most productive use of a conversation would be to talk about what your mother did.
The conversation itself.
Well, I can tell you that What I felt when she said that reminded me so much of when I was younger and as far as specific instances, I can't say that, but I felt pretty much like a child that was being put off.
That feeling of frustration that, are you not hearing what I just said?
Like, it's not real.
Like, she doesn't acknowledge or take seriously what happened.
Oh! Oh!
But I so completely disagree with you about that.
Completely and totally.
Which doesn't mean I'm right, of course, right?
According to the evidence that you gave, she did not ignore you and she did not not listen to you.
Because the way that you describe it is almost like halfway through the phone conversation, before she said anything unproductive, she was beamed up by space aliens and the phone fell to the floor.
Did you know what I mean? You're talking about her non-response, right?
Right. But that's not the truth of...
Right, I'm just going to go with the pure assumption, and I fully accept that what you say about the conversation is true.
That's not the truth about the conversation, based on the evidence of the conversation.
It's not even close to the truth.
And that's probably why you've lost empathy.
Because you've got a story about it which doesn't conform to the facts and so it's bewildering.
So I'll, while you sit there wondering what the hell I'm talking about, I will lay out a possible framework for looking at what your I will lay out a possible framework for looking at what your And you can tell me if it makes any sense whatsoever, right?
And if it doesn't, no problem.
We'll go try something else, right?
But I'll try this, if that's alright with you, and let me know what you think.
That's right. Go ahead. Okay.
First and foremost, your mother interrupted you, right?
Okay. Yes.
See, that's not not listening.
That's interrupting. Those are very different things, right?
Yes, very much so.
Right, for instance, I bet you there are probably at least an hour or two a day that you don't listen to me.
No, no, no, let's cut that down.
30 to 45 minutes a day that you don't listen to me, right, let's say.
Okay. Because you haven't got the shower headphones or something like that, or something during the day where you're not listening to me, right?
And so when you're not listening to someone, that is a truly passive action, right?
I mean, there are a billion guys in China who don't listen to me, right?
So it's not specific enough To say she was non-responsive.
Non-responsive is there's nobody home and the phone keeps ringing.
But that's not what was occurring with your mother.
And again, I'm always annoying about the precision of these things.
Because when we're trying to navigate these foggy, dangerous corridors of family evasions, we have to, have to, have to be precise or we're lost.
Right. Right.
So it's not that she was non-responsive, but it's not that she didn't listen.
Right? That's not the facts of the situation.
Because that could also be applied to if she wasn't home, she would be non-responsive and wouldn't have listened to you because she didn't pick up the phone or wasn't home or whatever, right?
Right. So you've ascribed to her A passive role in the conversation, which is not accurate to the facts of the conversation.
She just didn't do this.
She didn't respond. She didn't listen.
She didn't... Right?
But she was active in the conversation and the actions began with the interruption.
That is a very assertive, or we might say aggressive, action.
That is very proactive.
That is not... Not doing something that is doing something, right?
Right. Does that make sense?
Yes, it does. So that's the first thing, and I'll try and be more succinct, right?
I just really want to lay this sort of idea, and we'll see if it makes sense.
Now, the second thing she did was she said, I understand that you're having a bad day, dear, and you want to take it out on someone, right?
And blah, blah, blah, right?
Yes. Okay, so she's interrupting you.
When you're trying to talk about something that is enormously, enormously, enormously difficult for you to talk about, and which you feel very strongly about, right?
Exactly. Yes.
And she interrupts you, which is kind of rude, at the very best, right?
Right. And then...
What is she actually doing when she says, I know you're having a bad day and you want to take it out on someone, but I just wanted to tell you, Thanksgiving, I love you, blah, blah, blah, right?
What is going on there?
because if you think that's passive, think again.
What is she saying?
Hello? Yeah, I can hear you.
What is she saying?
I mean, I don't want to, you know, because if you're in Switzerland, I don't want to, you know, yell from the mountains and say, follow me, echo, echo, echo, right?
So I'm happy to unravel it, at least as I see it, and you can tell me if it makes any sense, or you can try lifting the fog.
Actually, you're making perfect sense, but basically what she's doing, she's Quit it.
I mean, that's basically what she's saying.
Quit it. Stop talking.
No, she's not. No, she's not.
Sorry. That was really good, right?
Because at least you're looking at her from an active standpoint, but that's not accurate.
And I say this with enormous respect for your intelligence, right?
It's just that when we're in these places, we can't see clearly, right?
Because that's not how certain kinds of families work, right?
We're not allowed to see clearly.
We're punished for seeing clearly, right?
So I'll put another way of...
Because you're saying... She's saying stop it, right?
But she's not. What she's doing is...
You're complaining about an injustice that is very deeply felt and which you're very frightened to bring up about your history, right?
Right. And what she does is she says...
You are being unjust and abusive.
You are acting out your bad temper unjustly against me for no reason other than that you're immature and bad-tempered and grumpy and mean.
you I am the victim here.
you are the irrational aggressor.
Wow, that just really...
I mean, tell me if I'm wrong.
I'm not trying to layer something in here that doesn't...
Tell me if I'm way off base.
I'm happy to shred that and start again.
But that's what I'm getting at.
Wow, that really just, the way you just said that, oh my god.
But is it not right?
It's exactly right.
It's bang on! You're saying I had my heart ripped out by kinds of injustice when I was a child.
And she says, you are taking out your bad mood on me unjustly.
But I love you anyway.
What a mind fuck that is, isn't it?
Wow.
I am such a better person than you that I love you even though you are unjustly attacking me because of your bad day.
So not only do you become the aggressor and she becomes the victim, but she also pulls the moral superiority, treacly-eyed Jesus love fest as well.
That she is the Dalai Lama, the Zen goddess who rises above these petty human attacks and loves you anyway.
Despite your very significant and unjust attacks upon her, simply because you're in a bad mood.
I guess what baffles me the most about it is she was right there through so much of what happened when I was growing up and she was right there.
I mean, right there. She heard every word that came out of his mouth.
She saw what he was...
Now, I'm going to interrupt you.
I do apologize for interrupting you, but you're sliding off This thing we're just talking about, right?
You're trying to pull me off somewhere else, right?
Because we're talking about this moment on the phone call, right?
Right. Which is where you felt...
I mean, I totally get the hanging up that you experienced.
Like, you were hanging up this phone, right?
Because you felt something overwhelming.
Coming, right? Something emotionally overwhelming.
As you say, you've not hung up on your mom before.
Right. So, if I remember what you typed in the chat window, it was I-L-O dot dot dot.
It wasn't even the full half syllable of love you, right?
Right. And so...
We're not done with that moment, and now you want to go off about what she knew about your child.
We're just talking about this moment, right?
Right. And if we go off in that direction, we're going to go into story land and other analysis and lose this feeling, which is so important, right?
Right. And I have no problem talking about that other thing, if you'd like, but we need to sit on this moment, because that's when things went off the rails for you, right?
Right. So, when I talk to you, and I exaggerate, though it may not be what goes on for you internally, right?
What your mom is characterizing.
Well, I characterize your mother in this call, right?
When she says, I'm the victim, you are the aggressor, you are the unjust one, but I'm going to rise above it and be so frickin' superior that I'm gonna love you anyway, right?
When... Because that was the second layer, right?
The first layer was that she was not passive, but she in fact interrupted you.
The third layer is that you are the unjust, quote, abuser.
And the third layer, which is when you hung up on her, was, and I am morally superior to you because I can still love you despite your amazing, deep, and horrible flaws, right?
Alright. So this is a 1-2-3 punch, right?
And you hung up on the third punch.
Right.
And I think that's the moment that we need to get, or that you need to get, if that makes sense.
Okay.
So when I, and I think, because I could feel your emotion before, when I began to talk about your mother's manipulation, there's no kinder word for it.
right?
If you're talking about a genuine pain in the past and someone says, you were unjustly inflicting ugliness on me because you're too immature to deal with your bad day, and I love you, that's really manipulative, right?
Yeah. It's not a lack of empathy, it's anti-empathy, if that makes any sense.
And we know it's anti-empathy because after the phone call, you had no empathy.
Right? Right.
That's how we know.
It's the effects and the reason, the analysis of what is said, right?
Right. So when we got to your mother's aggression or manipulation, let's say, that's when I could feel the cord being cut with your feelings, if that makes sense.
Right. And that's why you wanted to take me off on some other story about your childhood, right?
Yeah. And by I don't mean story, I don't mean anything false.
I just mean that's like, oh, that's interesting.
I've got it. Let's go here now, right?
I do that, though.
I understand. I get it.
Trust me, you dropped some breadcrumbs.
It's tempting to follow you that way.
Let's go talk about some other aspects of your childhood.
I totally understand that.
But there's no way that you've processed what we've just talked about with your mom.
You can't do it, right?
You can't go from fog to sheer clarity in 10 minutes or 5 minutes or whatever, right?
Right. So we need to, you know, pause and say, now you're doing to yourself what your mom did to you, right?
Exactly, yes.
So when did you get the urge to go charging off on some other thing?
Do you remember what we were talking about in precision?
I think what happened was I... I think I kind of went off on my own tangent in my mind.
I was thinking about...
How is it that she can...
How is it that she can take a stand like that when she was right there and she heard everything and she saw everything and...
I guess I was just expressing my disbelief and, yeah, I was pulling away from that, but it was...
Such a wonderful story.
And the answer, of course, is in the question, right?
There's no way that you don't know the answer to that question, right?
If she was right there and saw these bad things that happened to me and did not protect me and so on and so on and so on, why would she avoid talking about it?
Because she had the power to stop it?
Well, that's a very abstract way of putting it, right?
Like, yeah, theoretically, in terms of physics, that's true.
But we're talking more personally with regards to your mother, right?
So you're asking me why she wouldn't...
Why would she deny these wrongs when she is so aware of them is not a hard question to answer.
And again, I mean this with all due respect to your considerable intelligence, right?
But you understand, why would someone deny a wrong that they're so fully aware of?
It's because she's fully aware of it that she denies it.
Do you understand?
- Do you understand? - Yes.
- Really?
- Yes.
- I'm not sure you're just saying that.
No, I do.
Well, see, I'm getting angry about it, is what it is.
Right. And I think that it's your anger that causes you to go into bewilderment, right?
False bewilderment, right?
Yeah. And of course, false bewilderment sounds like it's your mother's defense, first line of defense as well.
Well, I don't know what you're talking about.
You must have just had a bad day, so, right?
And then you do the same thing.
When you get angry, there's this false bewilderment thing, right?
Yes. It's not funny, yes.
Well, it's minorly funny, right?
Because, I mean, the suspense is similar, right?
Yeah. And, of course, anger is a hard emotion, right?
It's an inconvenient emotion for other people, to say the least, right?
Right. And anger is a particularly inconvenient emotion for those who've done us wrong, right?
Our anger, right?
Yes. What were you feeling when you, or what was the feeling or the impulse that, I almost want to say it hung the phone up for you rather than That impaled you to...
Because it's almost like you hung up the phone and then it's like, what did I do, right?
Yeah, a little bit.
I was shocked at myself, first off.
But... It was...
I couldn't hear what she was going to say because I already knew what she was going to say.
And I was...
I had gone from very sad...
And not to mention extremely nervous.
I mean, I was shaking the whole time.
And just on edge the whole time.
And when she said what she said, when she started to say what she said, I mean, she didn't get to finish because I did hang up.
I mean, it was the I love.
I was very sad and I felt as though...
I went from sad to extremely, extremely angry to where I felt like I wanted to throw the phone across the room.
Right, like your hands shaking, hearts pounding, full fight or flight, right?
It was more like...
I felt more like I had to stand up and shove whatever this was.
I mean, it was...
It was...
It was violent. I mean, it was not...
I dare say I'm not proud of it.
I mean, it was real, but I definitely don't want to be...
I'm sorry?
Sorry, you said not proud of it.
What is the it there? What are you not proud of?
Just this outrage.
I mean...
Sorry, but why would you not be proud of outrage?
Because I've...
You didn't go out and punch a cat, right?
No. No, seriously, but you were very angry about something.
And if you say, well, I'm not proud of being...
Well, why not? Your anger is there to help you.
Your anger is there to help you.
It is like your body's immune system.
If we live a life without anger, it's like living a life with no immune system.
It's healthy. It helps us establish boundaries.
It helps us push back when we get pushed too far, right?
Right. Like, I could let these liberating minds weasels live in their dungeon of hatred until they start raining down the mainstream media and then it's like, I'm angry.
Enough. If they want to do a little hate fest over there, great.
But if they start really interfering with my pleasure in what it is that I'm doing, I'm angry.
And I'm proud of that anger, and I'm proud of what I did.
It was right not to do it for a year and a half, and then it was right to do it.
And this is not about me and these creeps, right?
But this is about you.
If you say, well, I'm not proud of my anger...
I'm not proud of this violent impulse to hang up when my mother is saying what to me is unspeakable, and then you have a judgment about it.
That's not curiosity about yourself, right?
That's, you know, this feeling is good, this feeling is bad, this feeling is right, this feeling is wrong, this feeling is unacceptable, this is unacceptable, right?
Carving yourself up into light and dark, good and bad, right?
Right.
That's not freedom, right?
That's a court of the self, right?
The court is always in session, right?
Right. You were angry, you were horrified, as far as what I'm saying, tell me where I go awry, right?
You were angry, you were offended, right?
Right. Right.
You felt something vile was occurring and you almost had to throw the phone away, right?
Like the phone had turned into a snake or something, right?
Kind of. And no, if I'm kind of, tell me where I'm off, right?
Because I don't want to... Well, it was more...
It was more like I physically had to...
Call something. It was just, I had to, like I had to rip whatever this was in me.
It just, it really just, I almost threw the phone and I wanted to throw it against the wall, to be perfectly honest with you.
Right. And that to me is a perfectly healthy impulse.
And if you don't mind buying a new phone and fixing your wall, you're almost going to be frightened by what you're doing.
So what, right? Right.
I guess I associate anger as something that I really don't want to have.
And it's such a strong association to my stepdad that, I mean, I know I've swallowed it for a long time.
I mean, anger would come out, but it would come out in unrecognizable emotional messes in the past.
Right. I mean, when we have experienced other people's rages and abuse, then we associate anger with destruction.
I mean, that's perfectly understandable, right?
Right. But that's like confusing promiscuity for lovemaking, right?
Just because they both involve a hole in a pole, right, doesn't mean that they're the same thing, right?
Right. In fact, they're quite the opposite, right?
Right. So rage is the opposite of anger in the same way that Rampant promiscuity is the opposite of intimate lovemaking, right?
Right. Well, it would make sense.
Rage also arises from an inability to set rational or reasonable boundaries, right?
Because then what happens is we surrender, we surrender, we surrender, and then suddenly we just get mad and we blow up and we have to push back and we get angry, right?
But if we have... That's what it felt like.
Right, right. But see, the difference is, though, with your family, if I understand your family situation correctly, and tell me if I don't, you weren't allowed to set boundaries.
You weren't allowed to say, I don't want to be the permanent babysitter.
I want to have a life. I don't want to be, it's not fair to blame me for things which my brother breaks, right?
Right. You weren't allowed a reasonable say, a perspective.
You weren't allowed to negotiate, to have a point of view that was listened to and, you know, negotiated, right?
Doesn't mean one wins, the other loses all the time, because that's not a negotiation, that's just dominance, right?
But where you're listened to and You negotiate, right?
It sounds like, if I understand this rightly, this was not possible.
No, not at all.
In fact, anything I said was pretty much used against me.
Right. So I just learned to just sit there, I guess you could say.
I mean, I could try to defend myself, but that was basically fuel for the fire.
Oh yeah, for sure. And then what happens is families will, certain families will not give you, you know, will just boss and bully you around and manipulate you and not give you a life and you're just there to serve everyone and so on.
And then when you get angry at this being exploited, taken for granted or whatever, right?
Then you get labeled irrational and angry and difficult, right?
Right. It's a trap.
I mean, there's no, and you can't win as a kid.
You can never win as a kid.
It's not even remotely possible to win.
These kinds of situations when you were a child, right?
I mean, you can't even win, so to speak, or get your point across to your mother as an independent adult, right?
You had no chance whatsoever when you were a dependent child.
Well, I guess what made it so awkward is since I did...
At one point, I did tell my mother that I strongly disagreed with what she had talked me into, which was my marriage to my now ex-husband.
I did approach her with that, but it was much calmer, and I don't remember exactly what she said.
It was probably along the same lines of, well, it wasn't really an I'm sorry, but it was a, well, I understand, you know, yada, yada, yada.
But basically my mom, she had convinced me to marry my ex-husband because I had gotten married out of wedlock and, you know, all the religious implications.
Sorry, let's just go back.
I think you just misspoke there, but tell me.
You said she convinced you to marry your ex-husband because you got married out of wedlock.
You meant you got pregnant out of wedlock?
I mean, I got pregnant, yeah.
Okay, got it. I want to make sure I'm following this.
Some more bizarre Christian ritual that I don't know about.
I got married out of wedlock and now we have to, I don't know, well, I'm not going to say anything about that.
But anyway, okay, I just want to make sure I understood.
Come on. Alright, so I'd gotten pregnant out of wedlock and she had convinced me that it was the right thing to do to get married and I remember not having too many problems with it.
I just kind of went with it, as awful as that sounds, but Sorry.
Let's go back a second there.
Because, you know, you're not necessarily the kindest person to yourself, from what I hear.
I mean, I'm serious about this, right?
You have to be really, really careful about the language you use about yourself.
Right? Because the descriptions that you have about yourself kind of become yourself.
Right? And I can think of at least half a dozen self-denigratory or negative things that you said about yourself in this conversation, right?
Really? And I really, I mean this with real gentleness and real care and concern, right?
This is not a, I don't want you, oh my god, I'm bad for denigrating myself.
I don't want to go, like that's a hole with no bottom, right?
That's a spiral. Yeah.
The way that I try to work it is that I try not to refer to myself, and I'm critical and so on of myself, like everyone, right?
But I sort of think to myself, would I say this to my child?
Will I say this to my son or my daughter?
And you may want to think about that.
Because You deserve from yourself at least as much tenderness and kindness as a random child, even if it's not your child, any child's, right?
We wouldn't say that too, right?
So that kind of kindness and compassion, right?
So she talked me into, you know, getting married out of wedlock.
Awful though that is, or whatever, right?
But it's not awful. It's tragic.
It's tragic. It's tragic because you had been raised in such a way that you ended up getting pregnant out of wedlock.
I assume you weren't 35 when this happened, right?
No. Right.
You were very young, right? Right.
Right? So you had...
And this, of course, is a terrible pattern, right?
More particular to women, women without a father figure that loves and respects them, as Dr.
Phil says, or pray to the first hairy-legged boy who comes along and tells them they're special, right?
I mean, it's just a hunger that we have, right?
Well, what's strange is I almost didn't mind getting pregnant at I don't know, it was...
I could finally leave the house?
Sure, I understand that.
I really do. I really do.
Right? I totally understand that.
But I mean, of course, in hindsight, as you say, an ex-husband, right, life would be a little less complicated if things had gone a little different, right?
Oh, would it? Right?
So I understand all of that, but it is a tragedy.
And the tragedy is your family's, your parents, your stepdad's tragedy.
I mean, well, it's there, not doing exactly optimal parenting, to say the least.
But it is a tragedy for you, that this is the state that you were in when you were supposed to be launched into adulthood.
That you had been suppressed and not respected, as far as I understand it, for so many years that you were a child in a woman's body embarking upon adulthood.
And not a frightened child or an empty, indecisive, doesn't know how to negotiate or make decisions in that kind of way.
That's the sense that I get. And again, tell me if that's way off base.
And that's tragic, right?
Right?
You're not far off base.
Basically, I had no idea what I I had no idea what I was doing when I didn't know what I was doing When I got pregnant, I didn't know what I was doing when I got married.
I just knew I was getting out of the house and I fell right back into the same thing with my ex-husband.
So, yeah.
Right. So, I mean, you hadn't been raised in an environment that encouraged any kind of Development of opinion, negotiation, perspective, and in fact would likely, as you say, actually punish those things, right?
Right. And so what you did, as far as I understand it, when you talked to your mother recently, is you probably had not tried that since you were three or four years old.
Or maybe even younger.
But you were attempting to connect with your mother, which as you say, as you said earlier in the conversation, you hadn't done for as long as you could remember.
Like you were reaching out for her, right?
Right. You had thought and prepared and written down and had gone through all of the terrors of that kind of thing.
Of getting ready for that kind of conversation, for that kind of attempt to connect?
Well, I didn't exactly plan it like that.
And I'm not going to say...
I don't regret what happened yesterday, but that's not how I planned it.
I wasn't going to read her...
The details of that to which she had already seen and witnessed, I was going to very calmly, you know, walk my way through it.
And I could see how that wouldn't be very productive now that I think about it.
It's still kind of avoiding the issue.
I'm sorry, how was the conversation not productive?
Sorry, I just wanted to understand what you mean.
No, not the one yesterday, but...
The one I was planning, because this wasn't planned.
Yesterday, she just happened to call me right after I'd written this.
And... I mean, she was obviously...
When she first called me, she was concerned, because I was crying, and I was...
I was trying to calm down so I could talk.
I was like, look, you know, I'm...
I've had...
I did say, I was like, look...
Today, it wasn't good, and...
I got home and I wrote some stuff and she kept asking and she kept asking, but she wasn't asking like, I want to know what you wrote, but it was more so, you know, you're not going to do anything crazy, are you?
It was kind of that tone.
And that's when I said, well, I tell you what, I'll read you what I wrote.
When she said you're not going to do anything crazy or when that is the implication you get from the conversation, what does that mean?
Well, she didn't say that exactly.
It was more of an implied, nothing's wrong.
I'll go with your implication.
I just want to know what that means to you.
What, crazy? Yeah, I mean, it's like, what is she afraid that you're going to do?
What does that mean, right?
Does that mean go to Mardi Gras?
Does that mean join the Peace Corps?
What is she talking about?
Well, I guess I have to go ahead and say this too.
um You don't have to.
This is totally voluntary.
Do you feel it would be helpful? No, I feel it's going to be helpful.
Okay, go for it. My mom, in the past, I think she had disclosed when I was about 14 that she was suicidal.
Sorry, again, I'm sorry.
I just want to make sure that I really get what you're saying here.
So when you were 14, your mother disclosed to you that she was suicidal?
Yeah. Oh my god, that's so terrible.
That is so terrible.
I'm so sorry. Oh my god.
Oh man, oh man.
These freaking parents.
Anyway, sorry, go on.
Not my sympathies. My massive, massive sympathies.
Sorry, go on. Well, it kind of adds to the complication with my mom because kind of the tone I've taken with my mom for a long time has been I have to talk to her on that level of kind of like friend to friend.
But I have to be the stronger side of it.
The stronger half.
Well, sure, because she felt that you were stronger than her when you were 14.
At least that's what she must have thought to tell you this terrible stuff.
I mean, I hope you understand just how unbelievably unacceptable that is to burden a child with.
I mean, that's just completely off the charts as far as inappropriate things to talk about with children.
Right.
That is so far off the charts.
It's like this is where God lives, where this is justified, right?
I just – I just – you know, there's a lot I'll hedge about in these conversations.
That one I'm taking a firm, rooted stance on.
That is abusive in the extreme, to talk about suicidality with a girl, with a child.
That It's so incredibly undermining of security that is such a boundary violation from parent to child that I don't even want to use the words that I think about when I hear you say that.
That is so unbelievably off the wall wrong for a parent to do that.
And for any extended family member to allow that.
And if it's ever found out, to not get you straight into counseling, to get, right?
That's just unbelievable how much that shatters.
security and a sense that you are taken care of by competent and caring adults, right?
Right.
Well, she...
She always...
I think because she was indeed suicidal that she carries at the back of her mind that I am.
And there was a time in high school that I can remember some thoughts But as I've gotten older, it just...
And I'm not making light of it at all, but it actually seemed kind of silly to me for her to think that of me.
I don't really know what that means, but it's just kind of like, Mom, can you please just, you know...
I'm not suicidal, okay?
I can interrupt you, and this, I'm sure, is going to get me in trouble with more of the reporters, but help me understand this.
Help me understand... And just pretend, right?
Just pretend I'm skeptical, right?
Because you said, well, this really complicates things with my mother, right?
I'm not sure that it does, frankly.
Make the case, if you don't mind, and maybe it's a great case, I just haven't thought of it.
Make the case for why this woman is in your life.
Who failed to protect you, who informed you of suicidality, who thinks you might do nutty things when you're upset, who manipulates you, who says that you are victimizing her when you try to talk honestly about that which makes you sad.
Give me the upside because I'm struggling and I'm struggling and I can't find it and that's what do I know about your family, right?
But help me to see something if I can't.
Why is this person in your life?
And I say, if somebody says to me, why is your wife in your life?
I'll go on for three days, right? .
Right. So I'm open to like, but God help me find something here.
Where's the joy? Where's the love?
Where's the benefit? What do you feel when she falls?
Right? That's a good question, Steph.
I think it's a pretty good question.
I think it's a pretty fair question, frankly.
Because she married a guy, so your stepdad, who was abusive, right?
Yes.
So she brought this guy into your life.
She brought suicidality into your life, right?
She's manipulating. She basically gives you a massive mind frack when you try to talk to her about that, which makes you sad and turns you into the victimizer and her into the superior love goddess, right?
I mean, help me to see what she's doing in your life.
I'm open. I'm wide open.
Okay. Because I haven't had the balls yet to...
I wouldn't wait for those, right?
Because unless you go and get some serious medical attention, that's not going to happen, right?
Right. No, but seriously, I mean, you don't have to answer, right?
And maybe there's a great answer, right?
But... To me, that's the question, right?
And forgive me for asking this, right, but if you could just give me a rough idea of how old you are.
I don't, you know, details don't matter.
I'll be 25 in two weeks.
All right, well, almost happy birthday.
And you got married to late teens, early 20s?
I got married when I was 19.
19, okay. So...
I mean, this is just my opinion, as all of this is, right?
And as you know, I'm no professional, and therapy is essential, I would say.
I mean, I think you've got to see a therapist, in my opinion.
Actually, that's more than an opinion.
I just think you have to see a therapist.
But there's a general thing that I don't quite understand about families as a whole and how we see them.
Like, I don't get how parenting just goes on and on.
Right? I just don't get how...
If I'm under someone's power and they give me barely enough to eat for 10 years and then I leave or they let me go or whatever, right?
And I was getting like a bowl of porridge a day for 10 years and barely keeping skin and bone together.
And then I leave and I end up owning a restaurant and doing very well and I've got enough to eat and I've got a great place to live.
And they come by and they say, hey, I've got a bowl of porridge for you.
What do I want it for?
I mean, her job as a mother was done years ago.
Thank you.
Doesn't sound like she was that great a mother for the first 19 years of your life.
Now, you don't need a mother anymore because you're an independent adult.
So, I don't quite get how it just goes on and on.
They're like the Rocky movies or something.
These parents...
Oh, wow.
Okay. Yeah. There's no statute of limitations in a marriage, right?
But there is a statute of limitations in parenting.
There just is.
Because... You're an adult.
The whole point of parenting is to get the children into the world, right?
Right. And so I can understand you needed her when you were 8, 10, 12, maybe a little less when you were 14, but physically, right?
You can't go get a job.
You can't be independent. You can't have your own life when you're a kid, right?
Right. Right. When I was a kid, I was in boarding school when I was about six, and I had to write a letter to my parents every week.
My parents, of course, separated when I was a baby.
And I would write to my dad, who lived in Africa.
I would write to my dad, and I would write, Dear Tom.
And I would get in trouble, right?
You can't write that.
You have to write, Dear Dad, Dear Father, Dear Peter.
Right? And it's like, no.
Right? Dad is not a sperm.
Mom is not a womb.
Right? That's just sex and biology.
Mom and dad, to me, are treasured terms.
Like hero. Like virtue.
Like courage. Right?
Like love.
Like honor.
Like sympathy.
Like empathy. They're morally rich words.
Right? I mean, rabbits have babies, right?
Yes.
Yes. Tapeworms reproduce in some godforsaken manner, right?
Right. So, the mother thing.
Like, to mother someone is to be mothering, to mother someone.
To me, that has specific content that is more than I had sex, gave birth, fed and sheltered, right?
Which can be achieved by chimpanzees, right?
Seriously, right? And rabbits, tapeworms and whatever, right?
Right. You don't need a mother anymore.
And I hope that my kids want to stay around me, not too close, right?
Because the whole point is to get them into the world.
But I hope that my kids want to spend time with me and that they'll enjoy my company and they'll find what I have to say useful, but I'll have to earn it, right?
Nothing's granted to me automatically. - Right. - So the job, the emotional job, the job of instructing you in decent ways of living, in helping the job of instructing you in decent ways of living, in helping you to understand yourself, in helping you to become strong in
in helping you to become brave and courageous and good in the world, that job is done years ago, right?
Yeah.
And doesn't sound like she did Estelle a job to say the least, right?
So what's she doing here now?
You don't need a mom.
And if she became...
See, here's... And I'll shut up after this, I promise.
And I'm sorry for rambling on so much.
And I'll zip it completely after this.
And I've said this before, but I'll say it again.
Let's say that tomorrow she turned into a wonderful mother.
You would feel like absolute crap.
You would. Because let's say you wrote a letter and it was so beautiful and it was so moving and you were so honest and you worked through it so much that she turned into a wonderful mother.
How would you feel? So you're saying I wrote her a letter and I changed her?
Yes. That the conversation that went so terribly yesterday to the point where you want to throw the phone, that that conversation went as we all fantasize these conversations can go,
right? Tears and standing and empathy and sympathy and a changed relationship and, you know, and she was warm and she was open and she listened and she was accepting and she was curious and she was apologetic and she was, right?
How would you feel if that happened?
Because we all fantasize that it would be great, right?
But it's not true. I don't know.
I guess I never thought about it.
Actually, I never thought about it like that.
I've always seen it as I'm going to meet resistance.
Right. But with the goal of overcoming it, right?
With the goal of breaking through, right?
Right. And let's say that you did, that you were able to break through to have that connection to, you know, all of the dewy-eyed fairy tales that we all have in our minds about this stuff, right?
And it turns out that in your mother, if you say the right things, emerges a truly wonderful mother.
That was in there all along.
How would you... Oh, wow.
That you just had to say the right things.
It's like a magic spell or something.
And poof! Right, out comes Mary Poppins.
How would you feel about that?
It was there all along.
You just never found the way to bring it out in her.
Wow.
Well, I probably will be confused at first because, I probably will be confused at first because, like I said, I didn't expect that anyways, but possibly but possibly
Okay.
I don't think it would be good, but I don't know if I would be angry with her or if I would be angry with myself.
Well, it wouldn't be good either way, right?
Because if your mother has this wonderful capacity for empathy and warmth and caring and curiosity and this and that and the other, if she can do it, why hasn't she?
Why? For 25 years, didn't she?
See, if she gives it to you now, it would be the ultimate head trip, right?
Oh yeah, I just chose not to.
Oh yeah, I can be kind and loving and empathetic and curious and wonderful.
Oh, I can be all of that.
I just didn't want to.
I just chose not to.
Now that you don't need it anymore, I'm more than happy to provide it.
But when you desperately needed it as a child, no luck sucks to your asthma, right?
Now that you have enough to eat, I will bring you a big meal.
But when you were starving, I gave you almost nothing.
Why would a woman with the capacity to be a great mother, why would she choose not to be a great mother, if she could be a great mother?
Or even a good mother.
Why would any mother?
I'm sorry, go ahead. Are you asking why would any mother do that?
Yeah, nobody does, right? And if a great mother chose, or a good mother chose, to not mother well when you desperately needed good mothering, and then chose to reveal herself as a great mother when you were 25, wouldn't that just be kind of sadistic?
Yeah. Yeah.
Which would mean that she couldn't be a good mother, right?
Because if becoming a good mother means that it's an act of sadism, then she's automatically not a good mother.
You see, there's no way that it can happen.
That does make sense.
That sounds very cautious.
I smell something wrong with it, but I don't know where.
And absolutely, of course, stuff to just mull over, right?
This is just the way that logic plays out the way that I see it, right?
Right. I mean, to put it in a context that's less complicated, right?
I mean, if I'm some...
Son of a bitch of a husband who is mean and cruel and yells at and, I don't know, maybe hits my wife or whatever.
Makes her feel like crap. And then she sits down one day and tells me that she's upset about all of that.
And I say, oh, I'm so sorry.
Then he brings...
And then I bring her flowers and, you know...
I'm nice and we go on romantic dinner dates and I write her poems and leave her notes and become attentive and nice, right?
Wouldn't that be insane?
Yeah. And would that just be another way of blaming her for all the abuse?
Oh, I thought you liked it.
Oh, I'll change. I can be a totally different guy.
Well... Yeah, that would be kind of crazy.
Um... Certifiable.
It would be pretty nutty, right?
And it would be very manipulative in a way, right?
Yeah. Because it would be like, well, I don't know what the right or wrong behavior is, but if you don't like hitting and you like flowers, I'll get you flowers.
But this is just deranged, right?
That would be mental. Right.
So... And that's very different because, again, there's no statute of limitations on marriage.
You don't outgrow marriage.
You hope, anyway, right?
But you outgrow parents, of course, right?
Yeah. I just mean in terms of your needs, physical needs and needs for support and shelter and so on, right?
Right. So if after all of that time when you don't need your parents in that way anymore, they suddenly morph into great parents, that would just be so maddening It would be insane, right?
Now that I don't need you to be parents at all, you suddenly become great parents?
Well, in a way, once I approached her about, gee, Mom, I'm glad you convinced me to marry this guy, she did Almost take on a like she was trying to make up for it stand and she's taken a lot of supportive stands as far as you know me going to school and everything but it still doesn't change anything and Most definitely.
I have thought about why now do you...
It's almost like...
It's almost like she's trying to make up for it, but she can't quite.
well I mean you okay maybe but I mean the thing to do is to ask right are you trying to make up for it and you know if so what I mean that's clear and direct stuff in relationships right right you know none of us are psychic right I think we've got great instincts but we can't know for sure right All right.
About something this complicated, right?
Is she trying to, in some unconscious way, make up for...
I mean, who knows, right? You ask, right?
And you say, well, what is it you're trying to make up for?
Or are you... And you see how you feel when you interact and so on, right?
Right. I think that's probably the biggest problem.
That you're making up...
As far as... Because these things about her?
Well, it's...
It's my...
Actual ability to say exactly what I am feeling to my mother, and then also teetering around certain things, like waiting for her to...
Like, I have to condition her before telling her something, I guess you could say.
Yeah, well, stop doing that.
I mean, seriously, I mean, I'll just take a stand here for that, right?
Alright. Because that's manipulative.
I'm not saying make her drink from a fire hose, so to speak, right?
I mean, you know, you can ease her into RTR or whatever honesty that you're bringing to the relationship.
But don't manage people.
It diminishes them and it diminishes you.
Right. I mean...
She made it through suicidality.
She's tough, right? She's not made of glass, right?
So... Just...
Life is short.
Life is short. And it's far too short to be dancing around landmines with people all day.
Right? Have clarity, have directness, have honesty, have openness, have vulnerability in your relationships.
But don't try to manage them.
Don't try to manage other people.
Don't try and guide people with nudges and, you know, make up things about what their true motives may or may not be.
Right? Just have that direct and clear line of communication with people.
That's the only relationship.
That is a relationship.
The rest of it's just fog puppets, right?
Right. I mean, you're absolutely right.
And that's part of the recent awareness of self.
I mean, for a long time it's been kind of a dance around making sure that nobody's going to blow up on me or I'm not going to lose this friend or I'm not going to lose this relationship because I expressed my opinion or...
I didn't agree with something and just basically getting a backbone and I mean in all honesty my relationships in the past has been built off of admittedly I mean I would manipulate these relationships into form I would give them this idea that I'm this and and then it was Basically built off of what they would say.
I mean, I had no self, and it's really coming to head recently, being able to get past the judging the situation before actually saying anything at all.
Right. I just wanted to give you that little sprinkle of what I hope is precision and clarity.
Of course you have a self.
Of course you have a self, but historically you were attacked for expressing yourself.
Or rejected or whatever, manipulated, right?
You were punished in one form or another.
You say, I don't have a self.
You do have a self, but you were punished, right?
So it was in hiding, which is a sensible thing to do when you're being punished, right?
Right. Well, it makes much more sense now why I do it.
It's just, like I said, getting what it takes to do it.
And I've been doing a whole lot better until that whole Issue with mom yesterday, and the next thing you know, I can't read it myself, much less other people.
Yeah, but you can't grow and re-inflict trauma on yourself.
It's not possible. You can't.
You can't. I mean, this is why I say to people, sit down, talk with your families, be honest with your families, try and work it out with your families.
But if you can't, and you give it your very best effort, right?
And if you can't, of course you're free.
To not be with your family.
Of course you're free. We're not serfs, right?
We're not slaves.
We're not chains. The umbilical cord is long gone.
We're adults, right?
But if you want to grow, right?
And this is true in relationships, right?
If you want to grow and the other person keeps pulling you back down and keeps reactivating your defenses, keeps re-minimizing you, particularly parents who have such power and influence over us, right?
If you want to grow and you hang around with people who oppose your growth, you are just spinning wheels in the mud.
Makes perfect sense.
They're either on the rocket or they're left behind.
There's not any other rational choice.
They either get on board with growth, with honesty, with intimacy, with openness, vulnerability.
They either grow up or you move on.
But you can't say, well, I'm going to grow.
Here I'm going to develop all these wonderful new things.
And then... I'm going to go back with people who diminish and manipulate me.
And then I'm going to go back to growing.
It's like trying to get over...
It's like a soldier trying to get over post-traumatic stress disorder by watching only four hours of Vietnam films every day.
Right? You can't.
If you don't be in healing, you've got to not expose yourself to that which activates defenses and trauma.
Right? If you want to be in healing, you can't be throwing phones.
Right? Or in situations where that occurs, right?
Doesn't mean getting angry, but as you see, this knocked you back a long way, right?
Yeah, it really did.
And it's totally understandable that it would, and I don't know that there's any way that it wouldn't.
I mean, if it's going to be this traumatic, if it's going to be this difficult, of course it's going to knock you back.
That's the risk. We all know the benefits of staying with a family of origin, whether they're nice or not.
We all know the benefits, right?
Everybody thinks you're a better person, you're rising above it, and you don't ever have to explain why you're not seeing them, and we all get why it's good.
And the only reason that we would stay with abusive family members, again, I'm not putting your family in this category, I don't know enough, but the only reason we would stay is we forget what it costs us, right?
Precisely. If it's all drinking and no hangover, it seems like a great deal, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Now, I'm sorry that...
I don't want to keep you up on that. And I'm sorry that we didn't get through to the...
I know that the feelings part of it is tough for you.
But I felt, at least I thought...
I hope it was the right decision.
Let me know. I thought that you needed a framework to look at what happened, which made sense.
And I think through it making sense for you...
It will be easier to feel about it, if that makes sense.
It does.
It does. Really, I was pretty confused about what had happened, because I really felt like I had just been blasted back into this This yuckiness,
I guess you could say, just unable to, unable to feel myself, unable to, unable to really feel anything from anybody around me.
And it was, I mean, it was very anxiety approach.
I mean, just, it was kicking in the old habits, I guess you could say.
Yeah, kind of dissociation and lack of empathy for the self and others, right?
Right. And it wasn't, It wasn't a dislike for other people.
It was just a complete inability to feel other people.
I mean, just gone.
And then likewise, there was the recurrence of smallness.
And what I mean by that is, even more so, unable to say what it was I wanted.
It's kind of like I lost my voice and then it's if I say something, something bad is going to be said back regardless of what it is.
It's just this recurring self-inflicted don'ts.
Just, you know, just sit in the corner pretty much.
And that's a really bad feeling and very much so like social anxiety when you shouldn't have any problems with, you know, I mean, nobody's threatening you, but you feel like there's this threat.
Right. So I just sit back in the corner and...
Yeah.
And it all started from that, so...
Right.
And that is the price, right, of having the defenses reactivated.
Right. And it's a heavy price, right?
Because this could go on for months or longer, right?
I hope not.
No, I mean, if you didn't, I mean, again, I strongly suggest counseling and so on.
But if you don't, like if you're around these people, you don't understand and you feel guilty and then you call them.
This can literally go on for months or years for people.
Well, I don't think I'm willing to let that happen.
But I can definitely see how that did affect me.
Right. And that's why I didn't talk about what you were feeling that much in this conversation, because I think that the feelings would not have led you to the clarity, at least as I see it, of what happened.
But I think with the clarity and with the understanding and with the self-empathy, right?
Self-empathy is the key.
I think that you can get back to the feelings of anger and the other feelings that you described that came out of the phone call.
And disappointment as well, right?
Yeah. Definitely.
Is there anything else you wanted to add at the moment?
Not really. I actually feel like I have more to work with now.
I definitely feel less anxious.
Because, I don't know, I think I was taking a whole bunch of anxieties on throwing it on top of the whole whatever had happened, and you definitely clarified some things for me.
So, at least at this point, I have more to work with.
I definitely appreciate it.
You're welcome. I'm glad that it was helpful.
You know, you might want to do that list of the pros and cons of having people in your life.
I think that's a good thing to have in general, right?
And, you know, it's a UBB thing, right?
Other people can have that list and maybe it's worth sharing with people if there's conflict or ambiguity about the relationship.
But you also may want to try, I don't know if you've ever tried that little meditation that I put on the board at one point.
Where is that? If you just do a search on the board, I don't know if somebody's in the chat room, they could post the link.
But if you do a search on the board for FDR meditation or meditation, I didn't put it in the stream because I don't want to surprise people in traffic with meditation or something.
But it's something that I adapted from a John Bradshaw book, which is around empathy with the self and so on.
I think I know what it is.
I think I remember it, but let me just look for it now.
It's very short, but I think it could be helpful.
There we go.
Yeah, it's in forums, Miscellaneous Other.
It's called The FDR Meditation.
I posted it September the 17th.
And it's the same link as all the other podcasts, just fdr-meditation.mp3.
I would strongly, I mean, if you can do it now, I think that would be great.
And I hope that you will definitely look into talking to a counselor because this is some, I mean, I'm not a therapist, right?
So I can help people process emotions, but I certainly do think that there's a lot of emotional awakening that's going on at the moment, which is why the defenses are being activated.
And I think I would strongly recommend talking to someone about that.
Right. I already...
I'm working on that right now, actually.
Great. Great.
Most definitely. All right.
Well, thank you. I appreciate your honesty.
I'm sorry, you were saying? Oh, I was just saying I found the meditation.
They posted it in the chat. Thank you.
Oh, good, good. Okay, well, obviously let us know how it goes.
My deepest sympathies and best wishes, of course, for what you're going through.
It is really, really tough.
And I hope that you will keep us posted.
And thank you so much for your openness and honesty tonight.
Thank you, Steph. Okay, take care.
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