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Aug. 27, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
39:12
1135 Burning Marriage -- a listener convo

What to do when she's walking out the door...

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So what's going on?
I don't know where to start.
I've been with my wife since we were kids, I guess.
We were 16 and 18 and more or less did everything wrong.
We had our first child about a year and a half after that, before either of us finished school or had a job or anything.
And we tried to make the best of it, I guess.
Had our second daughter three years ago.
And I guess it's just sort of falling apart.
I don't know what to...
Like I said, I'm a little flustered.
Yeah, no, don't worry about it.
I mean, the emotions are fine.
That's good. That indicates that you care, right?
Yeah, absolutely. It's everything for me.
Right. I'm really sorry.
I mean, this is really, really tough stuff, for sure.
I mean, especially with kids, but, you know, either way, it's really tough.
And what are her major issues?
What would she complain about the most, or what would she have a problem with the most?
I guess just that...
I went through a time when I had some pretty severe social phobia, and we kind of got...
We just kind of had no fun. We were kind of trapped in the house and I didn't really want to go anywhere or do anything or spend time with people.
And she just never had any fun.
I guess we both feel kind of robbed of our childhood, you know?
We never got to be, you know, young and single.
So we had to watch our friends, you know, enjoy that part of their life while we...
We had to be instantly middle-aged, starting at our late teens.
Right, right. And she misses that.
Is that something she talks about?
Yeah, for sure.
I was practically agoraphobic.
I didn't really want to go anywhere.
I had some pretty severe paranoia about public places and stuff like that.
I guess you just grew tired of it and wanted to live life, you know?
Yeah. I don't really know how else to put it.
Well, I mean, that is stuff that you kind of both made a choice about, right?
I mean, it wasn't like you got drafted into the army, right?
No, no. I mean, like I said, we both did all the wrong things.
Well, you had two kids, which is not necessarily the wrong thing, right?
No, I was just retarded at the time, especially the first time around.
Right, right.
Now, did she know about your social phobia when she married you?
I would say yeah, because we didn't get married until years down the road.
I mean, our first daughter was five and was, you know, the flower girl.
So, I would say yes.
I mean, there was some stuff that led up to that.
I wasn't exactly the clubbing type going into it.
But, you know, my mother died when I was about 20 and that had a pretty nasty effect on me.
And there's a couple of other Sort of traumatic things that happened along the way.
Right, right. That just sort of just made it worse and worse.
There was just, you know, a fear, a terror sort of thing going into, you know, even going to the mall.
Just, you know, just paranoia.
Right, right. So, I mean, it's not that you changed completely since when you got married, right?
No. No, just sort of a progression.
And then we just kind of...
I mean, we smothered each other, sort of.
In what way? Well...
I guess we just sort of restricted each other.
We sort of had to, you know, ask permission from each other to go and do anything apart from each other or...
You know, that sort of thing.
To sort of get out of each other's sight, we had to, you know...
Sort of apply for leave, I guess.
You mean it was sort of, I don't know if the term means anything to you, but sort of like codependent, like you sort of had to be with each other all the time?
Absolutely. I mean, there's a part in RTR, it's about 20 minutes into it, about the arc of a relationship that just sort of hits it right on the head.
It sounded like you were talking about us, where we just sort of hooked up and, you know, we're completely inseparable and You know, didn't want to really see anybody else.
Blew everybody else off, and I don't know, I guess 13 years later we kind of couldn't breathe.
Right, right, right.
I know I'm certainly sorry to hear about that.
I mean, it's definitely tough, right?
Because you feel a relief early on because you get to merge, but then after a while, you're right, it does sort of begin to feel a little like you can't quite be yourself, a little claustrophobic.
Yeah, absolutely. Right, right.
And we both sort of, you know, resented each other for what we've missed out on, you know?
So, okay, so there's like a life, like an alternate life that you compare your life to and say, well, if we hadn't done X, it would have been so much better?
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we really had to get our shit together, so to speak.
I mean... Like I said, we were, you know, 16 and 18, and neither of us had, you know, held a paper route even at that point.
Right, right. We were both, I had dropped out of school, she was sort of on and off.
Right, right.
And why do you think that you did take the approach that you took, as far as getting married so young?
Well, we actually didn't get married until...
Sorry. No, you're right.
You mentioned that. Sorry.
What I mean is to have kids and to sort of get involved that way so young.
Well, I mean, obviously the first one wasn't on purpose, right?
I mean, that just kind of happened to us.
Well, not exactly, right?
It's been a while since I took health class, but I don't think it just happened.
Well, like I said, we were doing everything wrong.
We were dumb. I mean, what can I tell you?
We... We decided we were going to, well, her parents were not fond of me, so she decided to leave, and we decided to move into her sister's little dumpy apartment together.
Right. And so we started sort of living together, and then it happened, you know.
She was supposed to start the pill, and before she really got started, she was pregnant.
Right, right. Okay, and sorry, I have some thoughts, but I certainly don't want to interrupt what it is that you're talking about, because your thoughts are more important than mine at the moment.
Sure. I don't know what to say.
Okay. Well, I mean, the first thing that I would say would be that the choices that you made when you were younger...
I would say were not the kind of sacrifice that you may think of them as now.
And what I mean by that is the alternatives would have been – you perceive the alternatives as being worse, if that makes any sense.
Because otherwise you wouldn't have done what you did, if that makes any sense.
Oh, yeah, I see that.
I often say it was probably the best thing for me, the way my life was headed at the time.
I mean, I was a hot-dealing scumbag at the time.
There was no great future ahead for me.
Right, right. Okay, okay.
It was sort of the kick in the ass that I needed, in a lot of ways.
Right. I mean, as far as what we missed out on, I think that's more her than me, but I shared sort of the same thing when my friends were sort of young, rich, and single kind of thing, working their first full-time jobs, and they get to blow their money on cars and booze and do whatever they want, which is appealing when you're 20.
Right. And I sort of had to, you know, start saving money for rent and, you know, try to get a house and, you know, wear diapers.
Right, right, right.
And the friends that you've had who took this other route, how have their life turned out?
Well, I mean, that's sort of a mixed bag, but they sort of did more of the normal thing.
They kind of waited You know, eight or nine years, and then they did the same thing.
You know, they got together with somebody and had their kids and that stuff, and that's when we had the bright idea to have the second kid, was when all of our friends were sort of having their first.
Right, right, okay.
Everybody else sort of did the normal thing.
I've had some friends that had a similar educational background as I did.
They just dropped out and found work and they did that sort of thing.
And I've got another friend who went to school for eight years or something like that.
And now she's working in her field and she did the same sort of thing, but had her child two or three years ago.
Right, right.
So, is it my understanding that your wife is the one who feels more resentment, more of that kind of loss, and is more like more wants to leave?
Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
I mean, I don't want her to go.
I mean, I don't... But she's just sort of...
Her words are just done.
She's just... She can't do it.
She wants to live. She doesn't...
And it sort of seems like, you know, now that we both work and we've got some money and we've got a house...
It's almost like the problems we were having were sort of smothering each other and whatnot.
It didn't really seem as important when we were just sort of trying to feed ourselves.
Oh yeah, for sure, for sure.
Does that make sense? Oh yeah, no, listen, once you get some breathing room then your needs change, right?
Absolutely, yeah. Nobody worries about self-actualization when they're running from a bear, right?
Yeah, no, and I mean, up until even a couple of years ago, it was literally a matter of feeding ourselves.
Yeah, no, I understand.
I understand. Now, what's on the table or off the table for you in terms of change to make this work?
Nothing. It's everything to me.
There's nothing off the table.
Okay, and so what have been your suggestions about change to make it work better?
Suggestions? Yeah, to her.
Like, what have you said? Let's do X to make it work better.
Or I'll do X, not let's, but I'll do X. You know, I've said that, you know, I'm willing to go anywhere and do anything.
You know, she feels kind of robbed of a social life sort of thing, and she likes to go out to concerts and stuff like that.
I'm not really... You know, I kind of enjoy them once I'm there, but I still kind of stress about, you know, big public events.
But I've said, you know, I'm willing to go anywhere, and it just doesn't seem enough for her that I'm just willing to put myself through it.
She wants to be with somebody who wants to do the same things as she does.
Well, and sorry, have you looked at any treatment options for social phobia or anxiety?
No, I mean, since this has happened, I've said, you know, I'm kind of interested in doing some therapy, but it hasn't been as severe as it once was.
I used to run around the house looking out the windows kind of thing.
But I'm guessing that it's not particularly a pleasant prospect.
I'm not, I don't know if she, I'm sure she's not perfect, right?
But we just talk about you, right?
I'm sure it's not a very pleasant prospect for her to think of you willing, gritting your teeth and dragging yourself out with her.
Exactly, exactly. That's just kind of like, oh, please don't do me any favors, right?
Yeah, no, that's her point of view, exactly.
It's like, you're not willing to make the sacrifice, but she doesn't want somebody making a sacrifice.
Right. She wants somebody to have fun with, and, you know, somebody who's You know, white-knockled the whole time is not quite the same thing.
Sure, no. Now, there are treatment options for social anxiety, right?
It's treatable. Yeah, no, actually, it was at its peak a few years ago, I would say, and it's almost gone now.
I mean, I work with the public now, so that's been a big help for the last few years.
That's what I've been doing. And now it's, you know, I can go out and do things.
The problem is I just don't want to.
I have no desire to. You know, when a normal person would feel excited about going somewhere, I just sort of get an anxiety.
Even if it's somewhere, that's my idea to go.
Right, but that's treatable too.
Yeah. I mean, you'd like to have the freedom to not feel that anxiety when you want to go somewhere, right?
And that's treatable to the point where you will feel almost no anxiety and you will in fact feel some eagerness to go places.
And the reason that I ask you what's on the table, if it's on the table for you, and this is not five years of therapy.
This is a progressive desensitization program that gets you to challenge your thinking and exposes you to situations that would cause you anxiety.
My wife does it all the time, right?
So this is treatable in a pretty short time frame.
Yeah, actually, I mean, I'm sure therapy is probably the way to go, but I think of...
I think I've done some of it on my own in a lot of ways, especially through working with the public.
No, no, listen, I understand, and I understand your resistance, but you haven't done enough that your wife is happy with it.
That's all that matters at the moment, right?
Right. I mean, I'm sure you've done great stuff, I'm sure you've worked very hard, but it hasn't gotten to the point where your wife is satisfied, right?
No. No, I still don't.
You still don't want to go. You don't hate it as much, but you don't want to go.
And she wants you to want to go, right?
Right. Right.
So what I'm saying is that if you go and get treatment for this to the point where you can actually be enthusiastic about going, it might not save your marriage.
Who knows, right? But surely it would be a more fun life for you either way, right?
So that would, I mean, the only thing, like, because you're in an extremity here, right, where your wife is just chewing her own arm off to get out, right?
So, because the situation is an extremity, your behavior, your solutions also need to be 150%, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I see that.
So, the fact that you're hedging with me, and I don't blame you for it, because I understand it's a tough thing to go for treatment, but the fact that you're hedging with me means that you don't get the 150% thing quite yet.
And again, no disrespect intended, right?
I'm just sort of pointing it out. No, I don't feel like I'm hedging, but...
But you are. You know, I mean, again, with all due respect, because you're saying, well, you know, it's better, and I've done some work on my own, and I guess it's an option that I should think about, right?
As opposed to a burning building, right?
Yeah. Right, because your marriage is a burning building, right?
It sure is. And so, in a burning building, you don't say, well, I can't find my slippers and, you know, I want to grab that book I was reading and I think that there's a blockbuster rental still in the DVD. You just get out of the building, right?
Right. And so, in this situation, when one of the key issues that your wife is having is the fact that she feels constricted by your social anxieties… Right, treatment options for that should be a burning building, i.e., wow, I can't talk to you anymore, Steph, because I've got to make this phone call to get some treatment for this, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, I guess I didn't think that was the main problem.
Well, I don't know if it is or not, Mike.
I mean, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it's the problem you told me about.
And whether it is or isn't the problem, it doesn't matter.
What does matter is that whatever the problem is, that you have a burning building commitment to get it solved, right?
And if that means treatment, if that means therapy, if that means, I don't know, reading every Oprah book on the planet, whatever that means, right?
Whatever it takes, combined with profuse apologies for not having solved the problem before.
Because if it has to get to the...
Like, for you to go for real treatment for this anxiety issue, with all respect for what you've done already, for you to go for real treatment, right, because she's going to leave you, means that you could have done it before, but you didn't because the stakes weren't high enough.
So you also have to apologize for the stakes having to get so high that this is what it took for you to solve the problem.
And we've talked about that, and she's actually kind of...
I'm angry about that, you know, that it took...
Oh, I get it....that she said, you know, for so long, she said, you know, I'm not happy, this sucks, you know?
And, you know, now that she said finally that she's had enough, I'm like, okay, okay, I'll do something, you know?
Right. And then she's, you know, she's like, well, you know, why now, you know?
Right. Now that it's a problem for you, you'll change it.
But while it was a problem for me, you didn't, right?
Yeah. I mean, I have no excuse.
I'm an asshole. What can I say?
I mean... Well, I mean, I don't think you want to start calling yourself names, but I think it's just a recognition that you just – I mean, grovel, right?
I mean, it sounds ridiculous, right?
But it's true, right?
Which is just – It depends.
It's how far you want to go to save the marriage.
It may work.
It may not. But the important thing is that you're not left with any regrets.
Like you don't look five years down the road and say, man, I can't believe I didn't make that phone call to get treatment for this anxiety.
Because, of course, a divorce, as you know, is going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars.
Your life is going to be a mess for like 20 years while your kids grow up.
So the costs, even outside the emotional ones, the time and money costs are huge, right?
For sure.
So to make a call, to grovel, to cry, to open your heart as much as possible, to do all of those things.
Thank you.
It may save, it may not, but what it will do, Mike, is it will help you, if the thing has a chance at all, it will give you the peace of mind that you gave it everything that you had.
Right. Like, the life without regrets, I think, is a really important thing, right?
Yeah, I think it's a bit late for that for me, but I certainly mean...
Well, but regrets, I mean, now that you're more conscious of it, now that you're getting, you've got RTR, you've got some more outside input, now, because without knowledge, we can't really blame ourselves, right?
I suppose not. I mean, we can, but you don't know what you don't know, right?
I mean, I was not an anarchist for many years, because I hadn't really thought it through, but that doesn't mean that I was retarded, it just means I didn't know what I didn't know, right?
And, I mean, I had a dozen or so failed relationships.
That doesn't mean that I was bad or stupid.
It just meant that I didn't know what I didn't know, right?
Yeah. Sorry about being a bit of a mute right now.
No, don't apologize to me.
That's no problem. I hope that what I'm doing is some mild help.
Not for my own ego, but just because it would be great if this was something that you could...
I mean, you can't control the outcome.
You can't control whether she's going to stay or whether she's going to go, right?
The only thing that you can do is control your commitment to solve the issues that That she's had for so long, right?
Yeah. And obviously, as you know, the best chance you have to save it is to just make it a burning building situation to deal with the issues that she's had a problem with, right?
Yeah, I see that. And to acknowledge the fact that it had to get to this and that you're, you know...
You're sorry about not having dealt with it for so long.
And, you know, because obviously that doesn't make her feel good if for years, 13 years, she's been saying, I want to go out.
And you'll be like, no, there are Bigfoots out there and they'll eat me or something.
Right? Right. So if you make it a burning building situation, because our tendency often when we're faced with a disaster like this is to get a little paralyzed, right?
For sure. Right?
It's like a deer in the headlights, right?
Right. Yeah, no, I've been mostly catatonic, I guess.
Right, and we all know what happens to the deer in the headlights, right?
Yeah. It's a splat, right?
And an ugly one, too.
Yep. So, in a sense, it almost doesn't matter what you do as long as what you do is really committed, right?
Yeah, I see that. And there's no higher priority, in my opinion, right?
And even if it's like, even if you're doubtful about doing it for your wife, then doing it for your kids is number one, right?
Yeah, I've actually, I've said that to her, you know, that I've, you know, it's only one on the shopping list of issues I've got.
And, you know, I've said, you know, I've been thinking about taking some therapy if we can find a way to pay for it.
Turns out she's actually got some benefit coverage for that, so...
Well, but see, if I were your wife, if I could just put on my skirt for a moment, right?
If I were your wife and I heard you say, well, I have to figure out how to pay for therapy, I would sit there and think, well, how expensive is a divorce, right?
Sure. I never thought of it that way, but yeah.
Well, and the other thing, too, is that even if...
Let's say that you make this a burning building situation.
You do everything that you can to try and make this work, and she doesn't stay.
I guarantee you that if you do that, your divorce will be much more amicable.
Yeah, I mean, we're not...
Yeah, I see what you mean.
Because she'll at least have...
Some of the resentments that she has had will be alleviated to some degree, right?
Yeah. Because even if she doesn't, like, even if it's too late, if she sees you fiercely trying to solve your issues, it will at least be like, well, it didn't work out, but he's trying to do the right thing, and he's the father of my kids, and blah, blah, blah, right?
Yeah, I've never, I don't really, I haven't seen it that way, I guess.
I've sort of more seen her resentment about me, you know?
Right. And no matter what happens, you want to do everything that you can to minimize that resentment.
Now, if that means she stays, fantastic.
But if it means that she doesn't stay, at least she'll be less pissed off when you're getting divorced.
Yeah. And that's going to save you, frankly, I mean, heartache naturally, but it's also going to save you a lot of money, right?
Because if divorces go ugly, and I've seen it, oh man, my parents and a friend of mine, when divorces go ugly, it's $20,000 right there, at least, right?
Yeah. So the cost of two months or three months of therapy to deal with this issue compared to Either a divorce or a non-divorce or a divorce that goes bad and one that doesn't.
Right? It's a good investment, right?
For sure. Plus, of course, what it communicates to your kids around responsibility and commitment to improving yourself is very important as well, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I mean...
To me, again, I'm a big fan of therapy, right?
And I'm not saying to you five years of Freudian analysis, but what I'm saying is that the question isn't, can I afford to?
It's really, how could I afford not to?
Because no matter what happens, for you to make a real commitment...
I'm finding a way to do this and I hope you approve.
If you don't, I'm sorry, but I just have to fix this because you're too precious to me.
The family is too precious to me.
I hope this works, but I'm not doing it.
You have to say this to your wife. I'm not doing this to win you back because that actually sounds smart, but it's going to make her resentful.
Because then she's going to feel like, well, so he's just doing it because I'm threatening to leave him.
Yeah. Right.
My suggestion would be, sorry to interrupt you again, my suggestion would be to say something like this, and you can obviously say whatever you want, but my suggestion would be to say, you know, I feel so bad that I've let it get to this, that I'm doing this, I'm fixing this for me.
Not for you, right?
I'm really sorry about having left it so long and I'm really sorry about all the opportunities that you missed out on because I didn't deal with this as much as I should have.
But I have to fix this now.
I mean, it obviously has created a huge mess in our marriage.
I'm totally sorry for that.
I'm totally sorry for everything that I didn't do for 13 years to give you the freedom.
That you wanted for socializing, for doing things outside the home.
I have to fix this now for me and for the kids.
And I hope that you will benefit.
Maybe you'll appreciate it. Maybe you won't.
But it's not to keep you.
It's just that I want to fix this.
Right. Because what you have to communicate to her is that you're committed to improving things the way you do things.
You're not committed to changing things so she will stay, because then she's going to feel like a bully.
Yeah, no, I follow that. Okay, sorry, I don't mean to over-explain.
No, that's fine, that's fine.
No, and I guess the whole thing goes to a bigger problem, where that's a habit of mine, where I let things get to...
The point of disaster before I act.
I mean, in every aspect of my life.
Right, right. And, you know, if you take the therapy approach, I guarantee you it will pay off huge, right?
I mean, going to therapy is better for your income and your job prospects and finances than going to university, I believe.
Certainly was the case for me.
Right, so it is an investment in yourself and it is an investment in the quality of your life and what it is that you're going to teach your children about initiative and responsibility and all that boring stuff.
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm a pretty bad example when it comes to that at the moment.
Right, but you can change that.
Yeah. But the tough thing is, right, you have to feel that you can.
The reason that you lack motivation is you feel helpless, right?
For sure. Because of your phobias, because of your history, because of, as you say, the bad things that happened when your mom died.
But you feel like you don't have a lot of power in your life, so you tend to be like deer in the headlights, right?
Yep. And look, we've all been there.
Like, man to man, I totally get it, right?
I mean, I've been there. I still go there from time to time.
So I totally do understand it.
And I've had my passive times.
I've had my deer-in-the-headlights times.
And there's no solution that I've ever been able to figure out other than fucking brute willpower.
I mean, it's FBW. That's all I know of, right?
Which is just to say, I'm going to work on changing this.
not because I want to manage other people or make them feel better, but just for me, because I don't like feeling, walking through life like I've got an elephant of inertia sitting on my chest, right?
Yeah, I've actually, I mean, I opened up the phone book for therapists a few times, and I just, I don't even know where to begin.
I look at the page and I go, fuck, I'm in.
But you do know where to begin, right?
Which is to pick up the phone call and see if you like the person on the other end.
Right, and to say, look, I've got social phobias, I've got a marriage in crisis, I've got all this shit.
But at least I've taken some steps in terms of learning about relationships and so on.
So, you know, and I'm ready to work.
It might work, it might not.
But I'm, you know, want to roll up my sleeves and get to it.
And if the other person, if the person at the other end of the phone seems like someone that you could talk to or someone that you would like, then you just drive over, you put down your money and you go for it, right?
I mean, you know what to do, right?
This isn't like trying to solve quantum physics, right?
No, I actually...
I'm kind of unfamiliar with the process, but I kind of thought I'd get a receptionist if I phoned the place, so I wasn't aware I could actually talk to the person I'd be dealing with.
Well, you might get a receptionist, in which case you can just say, and she might call you back with an appointment, and you might say, look, I want to speak to this person for two minutes before I come in.
And if they say, no, you can't talk to the therapist until you pay your money, you'll be like, okay, well, maybe I'll phone another place, right?
Yeah, that sounds ridiculous how they say it, but yeah.
Yeah, you leave 10 messages and whoever calls you back and is willing to talk to you for a few minutes, I mean obviously you can't sort of bend their ear for half an hour because they've got to make a living, but talk to you for a few minutes because you need to ask about, do you have experience with social phobias or anxiety disorders?
What is your treatment plan?
How long do you anticipate that it takes on average?
Those are all reasonable questions, right?
I mean when you buy a car, you get to ask a bunch of questions, right?
So that, I mean, from that standpoint, right, just being an informed consumer, it's not voodoo, right?
I mean, it's not like you're joining a cult.
You're just asking for a service, right?
Like if you go to a dentist or whatever, right?
You're going to ask them for their fees and their history and so on.
So, I mean, just making the phone calls is the key thing, right?
And just having that burning building mentality because you know what's going to happen if you don't act, right?
That is inevitable, right?
Yeah. And so any action that you take is an improvement over what you're doing, right?
Yeah, which is just being a human puddle, I guess.
Well, not quite, because you did talk to me in the chatroom, right?
No, I mean, I popped my head in there a few times and just quickly got back out.
I mean, I don't post.
I don't hang around the chatroom.
And you knew that if you talked to me, I was going to put on my hobnail boots, right?
And I was going to say, bend over, I got some change for you, right?
Yeah. You knew that I was going to say, do X, burning building crisis.
I mean, you knew that deep down, right?
I'm not sure I knew what was going to happen.
Like you said, just burning building, right?
It was just desperate. I didn't see...
I was just hoping for anything.
Right. Okay. And what it is that I'm talking about is that – is it helpful?
Is it useful? I mean, is there other stuff that would be helpful to talk about?
I mean, I'm always happy to talk, but I think that the important thing for you at the moment is to take strong action and just tell your family what it is you're doing and why you're doing it.
And don't do it with the expectation that everything's going to change, right?
Just do it for you and see what happens.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess I kind of knew that already.
Right, but I mean, obviously this is to do with your parenting and your upbringing, and you haven't felt like you've had a lot of power in life, and you've just got to grit your teeth and take it, and it's really weird and scary to do, but the alternatives are just that much worse, right? For sure.
Yeah, I mean, it's worse than death in my mind.
Right. And that is the burning building situation, right?
And so my suggestion is, like, let's stop talking now, and I would just make those calls that you need to, you know, leave a bunch of messages or talk to people until you find somebody that you like, set up the appointment, just, you know, roll up your sleeves and get to it, because that is the only way out of the building.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess you're right.
I wish I could offer you something easier.
There's no pill, right? No.
I guess there's not. Well, because if there were a pill, you'd feel even worse, right?
It's like, what? I just had to take this red pill and everything would be fine?
Damn! Yeah, I mean, I'd be okay with the easy solution right now, but I know there isn't one.
Right, right. And, you know, it takes a while to dig the hole.
It takes a while to get out, right?
Yeah, yeah, I think it will.
So you'll make the calls?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, I will. I mean, I'm a little confused where to start, but I guess the phone book is a good place.
Yellow pages and, you know, let your fingers do the talking, right?
Yep. Yeah, thank you.
You're absolutely welcome.
Please do keep me posted on what happens.
I think, my personal thought, this is up to you of course, as you know I record these as podcasts, but I don't release them unless the person I'm talking to feels okay about it.
You didn't, other than your first name, you didn't give any identifying characteristics.
What are your thoughts about this going out as a podcast?
Do you want to listen to it first?
You go right ahead.
It's the only way I can thank you.
You thanked me by working hard to keep your family together.
That's, you know, or failing that to have an amicable breakup and good co-parenting with your wife in the future.
That's, thanks enough for me, that and the podcast.
Right. Okay, well, keep us posted about what happens and seriously, like, you know, put the phone down with me and just pick up the phone to make the call.
So I know it feels like a huge step and it is, but it will give you relief.
I guarantee it. Yeah, I'm a little nauseous, but I think I can do it.
I know. Okay, well, keep me posted.
Just send me an email or post on the board, or you can come by the chat room if I'm there.
Oh, can you hear me? Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Just let me know one way or another when you have an appointment, just so I can put this out of my head as well.
Great. All right, thanks, man.
Best of luck. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks very much.
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