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Aug. 28, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:23:42
1137 Addicted to Shame - A Listener Convo

A listener reemerges...

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Time Text
Hello. Hello.
Hi. Hi.
How's it going, Steph? I'm fine.
Tell me what's going on for you.
Oh, dude, okay.
Okay, I guess I'll...
How do I start? Where do I start?
Well, okay, so I actually just got off the phone.
Why don't I start there? Natasha actually just called me.
To say, like, you know, why are you such a jerk?
Let's stop involving me in these things, because one of the things was that, like, I broke up with Natasha, as you know, like, a long time ago, and then I stupidly got back together, and then I, like, came to my senses and broke up, like, done, done, done.
And then, one day...
She went out to a bar, this bar, and then she ran into a guy who was, you know, used to be like one of my best friends, and got in a conversation with him, you know,
oh, I'm not going out with Dave, and then he started saying all this shit, and it was like she was drunk, or he was drunk or something, and he started saying all this stuff about me, like, you know, how I'm into philosophy, and how alienated people, and how people, I don't know, like, no one really likes me or whatever.
And then she came over to my house after, and she said, oh, I talked to this guy, and I was like, you know, like, it was weird, you know, like, well, what do you say?
What do you say? And I knew, kind of, I had a feeling.
And then I kept sort of pushing and saying, what did he say?
What did he say? Until she said all this stuff, and it was really horrendous stuff, really awful.
Stuff like, you know, he doesn't...
Really like me and he never, you know, he wanted to end the friendship and then he couldn't and all this stuff.
And it sucked because I thought, you know, this guy, I saw him just like a couple days before and I thought we were friends and we were hanging out and then he sort of like avoided me, avoided these calls and stuff and then he runs into my ex-girlfriend and talks all this trash about me and then So I felt really bad about that.
And then I don't see Natasha.
We don't talk. And then she wanted some stuff back from my house one time.
And she called and she's like, the only reason I'm calling is because my boyfriend's in Washington.
I was like, well, whatever.
And she's like, oh, She was drunk and saying like things to me and trying to get me upset.
And then the next day, that was like late at night.
And then the next day she shows up at my house at like six in the morning, kind of smelling of booze.
And my girlfriend is there.
I have a new girlfriend. She's there and Natasha barges in the house and screaming and rips all her, takes all this stuff.
A whole bunch of this shit was mine too.
Rips a bunch of stuff off the walls, kind of trashes the house, like, says all this horrible stuff that, you know, she promised not to tell anyone about me.
Like, I was seeing, like, a therapist, and she's like, oh, you're seeing a therapist, and you're such a loser.
Why are you going out with this loser? Like, my new girlfriend was literally, like, sitting right there.
She's, like, going off on her and saying all these horrible things.
And I just did damage control.
I just tried to get her out of the house as quick as I could.
Of course, I didn't want to, like, have an argument or fight about stuff, so she ended up taking a bunch of my stuff.
I didn't see what she took, but then once it was gone, I realized she, like, basically raided my house.
And then, so I don't see her anymore.
She's gone. And then she's going to go to Vancouver to visit, like, and she's going to go visit I heard, I don't know how I heard, that she's visiting a friend of mine.
Oh, my friend emailed me and said, like, oh, you know, a mutual friend from Morocco lives in Vancouver.
And he emailed me and was like, oh, I heard all this stuff going on with Natasha.
And are you okay?
I heard you're pretty bad. And I was like, I emailed him and I said, like, listen, like, this crazy stuff went on.
You know, like, it's really messed up and it's not a neutral thing.
Like, he was always, if Natasha and I got in an argument, it's like a neutral party.
And I said, man, it's not a neutral thing.
And I said, like, she came and stole all this stuff, like wrecked my house and, like, said all these horrible things.
And this is really messed up.
I'm trying to move on. But just, like, you can't just, like, hang out with her and act like nothing's wrong if you're going to talk to her and stuff.
Like, you know, like, it's not, everything's not cool.
And he, and then...
Oh, shit. I think she's phoning right now.
What should I do? Well, don't answer it.
I mean, or you can talk to her.
No, I don't want to talk to her.
Well, then don't talk to her.
I'm not going here. I don't have caller ID. Anyway, but then...
Okay. Where am I? Okay, then...
So he tells her, like, basically, like, the gist of what I said to him.
That, like, Dave says that things are really messed up.
He doesn't want to talk to you.
And he doesn't want me to talk to you.
And then she got really mad at me for doing that and sent me this horrible emails that I'm trying to alienate her from her friends and stuff.
And I'm just not trying to hold up a standard that if someone treats me like crap and swears at me and steals my stuff and it's just messed up and horrible in so many ways that it's kind of weird for my friends to be like, oh yeah, that's cool, you can stay at my house.
Okay, Dave, I've got to interrupt you, just if you don't mind me.
If you don't mind that. Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you. I'm not sure exactly why I should help you, and I'm happy to hear why I should help you, but I'm having a little trouble with it.
And I'll tell you why, and then you can tell me if I'm being a jerk or whatever.
Yeah. The Natasha thing, where she sent you...
The, you know, completely vicious email when you were in Japan was about a year ago, right?
Yeah, it's nuts. A year ago, right?
Right, right, right. Okay.
And what did I say to you at the time?
Run. You said grow some balls.
Sorry, go ahead. You said grow some balls.
I'm sorry? You said grow some balls.
Well, but what did I say about her and her personality and her effect on you or anyone?
Yeah, I said it's not good.
It's just kind of like bring you down and it's terrible.
Well, I actually said that she was toxic and vicious, right?
Right, right, yeah. You remember that?
Yeah. All right.
And then you continued to date her for...
And you can disagree with me, obviously, right?
It's just my opinion. No, I did.
It was really dumb.
I did. And then how long did you continue to date her after that August disaster for you?
Till, like, December.
And then I broke up with her.
And then I got back together with her out of, like, some weird thing.
Like, my distant insecurities, I guess.
And then I broke up with her.
Okay, well hang on. When did you get back together with her after December?
Probably like close to the end of January.
Okay, so you were apart for a month and then you got back together and how long were you together for?
Maybe... I guess four more months.
Okay, so then you broke up sort of March or April or May or something like that, right?
Yeah, yeah, and totally...
Okay, and then now it's August, which is a couple of months after that, and you're still asking her to give you information about your friends, right?
Asking her to... Well...
You said...
Yeah, I guess I did.
Okay, tell me if you did or didn't.
I'm not sure what I guess I did means.
No, like, yeah, I did.
I did. Yeah, you were begging her to tell you what your friend had told you, right?
Right. Now, we don't know what your friend told her.
We don't know whether she was manipulating him.
We don't know whether she was lying.
We have no idea. She's not trustworthy, right?
Right. But you're begging for her to hurt you, right?
Yeah, I guess I am.
Now, the whole time that you got back together with her, you were not around at FDR, right?
No, because I was hanging my head pretty low.
I was around, but I wasn't saying anything about it.
Well, you kept it from everyone, right?
Yeah, I did. Right, so you broke up, and then you got back together, and you didn't tell anyone in the community what was going on, right?
Or you didn't say, I'm thinking of going back together with Natasha, right?
No. Right, so you just did what you wanted to do and you didn't talk to anyone about it, right?
Yeah, because I knew it was retarded.
I knew exactly what I was doing.
I knew it was like a horrible, stupid thing and I knew that anyone with any integrity would just be like, what are you doing?
Right, okay. And I don't mind that you did or didn't do that.
I mean, it's your life.
It's your choice, right? Yeah, of course.
If you want to get back together with someone who's abusive to you, horribly abusive to you, that's your choice, right?
Right. But if you hide it from everyone, if you hide it from a community that cares about you and would have helped you in that situation, right?
Yeah. And then it all blows up in your face, right?
Yeah. Now you come to the community, right?
Yeah, I know.
Do you see what I mean? I mean, again, it's really embarrassing how weak I can be at this thing, because...
Sorry, you weren't weak.
You were manipulative. Because you kept something from the community, and that's fine.
You don't have to say anything to anyone, right?
Right. But you hid this action from the community, right?
You didn't let the community help you.
You didn't say anything to me, right?
Because I was so embarrassed that I... That I was going, like, right against everything that I knew to be, like, you know, like, honestly true and the right thing to do.
And I was going, like, right against it just to, like, put a big band-aid on my insecurities.
Not insecurities, just my band-aid on my...
getting rid of bad feelings, I guess, by bringing this person back.
I don't know. Well, but, I mean, you sort of dumped FDR as far as a community went, right?
And you went with Natasha.
Yeah. And you knew what you were doing, right?
I mean, you're not crazy.
Not what? I mean, you're not out of it.
You're not on drugs, right?
You knew what you were doing. No, no, no.
No, not at all. I feel like...
I feel like everyone's saying that I'm out of it, though.
Well, okay, so let me just explain it to you from my perspective, and, you know, you can tell me again if I'm being a jerk, and anyone else can, if they're on the call, too.
But I put a lot of effort into trying to help you last year, right?
Yeah, you did. So why would I do it again?
Because you just kind of, you didn't tell me the truth.
You went back to this toxic relationship.
Right? You kept it from me.
Yeah. You obviously are masochistic in terms of your relationship with her.
You're going all hell-bent for leather to the worst place you can go.
And you're only telling me now because you feel really bad.
It's not because you have any integrity that way that I can see.
Well, I guess I'm...
I'm not going to disagree with that because, yeah, you're right.
I guess what I am saying is, like, it was harder.
Like, it just took, in a way, like, it just took me longer.
Like, I feel like I really progressed.
It's just taken me a lot longer than I would have Sorry, what was the moment of weakness?
Listen, I'll be staying on the phone with you for a little bit longer, but you've got to stop bullshitting me now.
Okay. Do you know what I mean by that?
Yeah, I think so. I'm trying.
No, you're weakling me because you're saying a moment of weakness and so on, right?
Going back to her and going right against everything.
That was not a moment of weakness.
No, it was a giant chunk of weakness.
Right, so you need to be honest with me.
If you want help, that's fine.
But I'm not going to waste time Dismantling weasel words.
Okay. If that makes sense.
I agree. I agree.
Yeah. And now, when you first were telling me this story, you were giving me all of this nonsense, right?
Yeah. What was all the nonsense you were giving me?
It was just a story of how How she was doing this and she was doing that, and I was being virtuous and trying to defend myself against it and trying my best to just get it out,
when in reality I guess I was the one, or not I guess, I was the one Allowing these things to occur.
You didn't allow them to occur.
You created their occurrence.
I created them. I created them, yeah.
So what you're doing is you're calling me a year after I tell you this woman is toxic.
Yeah. And you're complaining about her to me as if you're a victim.
Yeah. It's ridiculous.
And you don't process it that way, right?
No, but that's exactly what it is.
I mean, that's exactly what it is.
So, why should I help you?
I mean, you're not being honest with me.
you don't you don't have to um I don't know it's like a lot of um I don't know what to say.
Well, because you got back together with Natasha, even though she was not honest, right?
And was kind of manipulative, to say the least, right?
Right. So, if I were to, quote, get back together with you, if you didn't have a commitment to honesty and to self-examination, I'd be doing the same thing that you did with Natasha.
And I'm not saying you're Natasha, you understand what I mean, it's just a parallel, right?
Yeah, it seems... So I wouldn't be modeling healthy behavior if I just jumped in and said, oh, that's terrible, boy, what a victim you are, right?
Yeah, that would be pretty silly.
That would be kind of silly.
And I don't criticize you for getting back together with Natasha.
I don't think, obviously, it was the right idea.
I don't criticize you for keeping it from people and all that.
The only thing that really bothers me, David, is that you call me up to complain about being the victim of a woman I told you over a year ago was totally toxic and you should get away from her.
Yeah, it's pretty annoying.
Well, it's manipulative on your part, right?
Yeah, but... Yeah, I understand, but why am I doing it?
Why would I do that? Well, I'm not going to do the work for you this time.
You tell me. Why I would call you and say, manipulate the situation that I created to make it look like I'm the victim to you, somebody that I only talk to on the internet.
Um... I want to think that I'm doing the right thing and to me you're sort of the guy who says the right thing to do.
Well let me ask you another question.
Your current girlfriend, when did you start going out with her?
Like a month ago. A month ago.
So a month or two after you broke up with Natasha for the second time?
Yeah, even sooner than that.
A couple of weeks? Yeah.
Okay, do you think that's wise?
Is it fair to the other girl?
To your new girlfriend? Is it fair to her?
Not really. I mean, again, this is just my theory.
I'm happy to hear if it is fair to her, if you are emotionally available to her.
Well, that's the thing.
That's the thing. I really...
I really feel like I have those two things separated and I do feel like I'm having a healthy relationship with this girl.
I really do. Okay, let me ask you this.
After your ex-girlfriend, who you were going out with a few weeks before you went out with this girl, trashes your house, what is your current girlfriend's reaction?
She was kind of overwhelmed by it.
Let me ask you this more directly.
Did she dump you?
No. Okay.
So, can you imagine, can you think of any sane reason why a healthy woman would not have kicked your ass to the curb?
Or, let me ask you another way.
If a month after Christina and a month or two, or a month after Christina and I started going out, my ex-girlfriend came and trashed my place, do you think that Christina would be real clear about what she would do?
Yeah, she would be.
What would she do? She would say, what was that all about?
Nope, she wouldn't. I guarantee you she wouldn't.
She would just go?
Yeah. Because clearly, if I was in intimate contact, and I mean just conversing with, intimate contact with an ex-girlfriend, and this was the kind of woman that I was used to dating, she'd run so fast you couldn't catch her with a genie.
Yeah. But she hasn't done that, right?
No, but I also...
I didn't just say, like, oh, that was weird.
I explained these changes and things that I'm trying to put into my life.
All right. Can I stop you for just a second?
So what you mean is you explained it to your existing girlfriend a lot more honestly than you explained it to me?
Well, I don't think that it was the exact...
I don't know if that was the exact same description.
I mean, it was a different context, kind of.
You understand that you're weaseling me here, right?
And I'm sorry to be so firm with you and you can tell me to get lost any time, right?
But you're weaseling me, right?
Yeah, what I said to her is that that's not what I want and that's what I'm getting away from and those are the things I don't want in my life.
But that's a lie. Because you do want them in your life, and if you didn't want them in your life, they wouldn't be in your life.
Because you went back to her and you've maintained some sort of sick and twisted relationship with Natasha even after you broke up.
Yeah, but I don't want that.
Then why is it happening?
Because I was walking down the street yesterday and she was in a store on the street and she walked out of the store and ran into me.
Who? Natasha.
Was she not at your house and you were begging her to tell you what your friend said?
Yeah, but that was like...
That was before when...
That was like weeks and weeks before, like months before.
Months before? I haven't spoken to her.
I literally haven't spoken to her in like a month.
To Natasha? To Natasha.
I haven't spoken to her in a month and I wasn't intending on ever speaking to her again.
And, like, after she came to the house and she grabbed all that stuff, I never spoke to her again.
Ever. Okay, okay, I've got it.
Like, that was it. I'm not talking to her.
Okay, I apologize. And then I'm walking...
Sorry, go on. Like I said, like, this is not what I want in my life.
I don't want... And I said, I'm never talking to you again.
And I didn't talk to her at all.
Like, nothing. No contact.
Zero. And then yesterday, I'm walking down the street in my hometown, and she...
Jumps out of this tanning salon that she was in with her friend and says, hey.
And I'm like, you know, like, okay.
And then she just started talking, and I felt really bad, and then I laughed.
I said, like, this, you know, like, I feel really bad, and you said a lot of horrible things.
Do you want to apologize? She didn't really, and she didn't, and then I said, okay, well, I'm going, and then I laughed.
Okay. And then she came to your house?
No. I know that all these things are like way out of order.
No, she didn't come to my house.
When did she come to your house?
That was like a month ago or like before, even before she came to my house and...
Are you talking when she came to my house and took all the stuff?
Yes. That was like a month before.
A month before you met her in the tanning salon?
Yesterday, yeah. Okay.
So I hadn't talked to her.
She came, she took all the stuff.
I said, that's it. I'm never talking again.
You're gone. I take the stuff and just go.
And she took it and she left.
And I never talked to her. Then yesterday, I'm walking down the street and she barges out of this tanning salon thing that she was in with her friend, the store, and said something, stuff to me.
And then...
Did you feel very sad or very upset?
Is that right? Yeah, it did.
It made me feel like...
You know, like...
Literally, I thought in my head, no matter where this conversation goes, it's not going to go to a good place.
I tried to be kind of civil, and I just said, I didn't hear from you.
I thought maybe you wanted to apologize for taking that stuff, and can you please return the stuff that you know isn't yours?
And then she's like, okay, I'll take the stuff back, and then And then, like, she has, like, I have to go.
And I'm like, okay, bye. I'm sorry, I'm missing the crisis here.
I'm just, I'm a little confused, so...
Well, and the other part was, I said, like, are you...
And then, well, that's what I was getting to.
I know it's a really complicated thing, and I apologize for that.
Then, while I was talking to her, the phone rings, or it's like she gets this phone message thing.
And it's an email from my mom.
Because my mom's still talking to her.
Right. My mom is still buddy-buddies with her.
I'm sorry, are you expecting me to be surprised by that?
No, I'm not. I'm just saying, like, that kind of upset me.
And then I left, and I said, well, you know, have you been hanging out with Jesse?
Because that was the guy that she was saying, like, all this...
I'm sorry, you said that you left and then you asked her something?
I'm confused. No, no, no, I didn't.
I'm just trying to remember all the things that were said.
So then I left, and when I left, I got home to my parents' house, because it was in my hometown.
I went to my parents' house, and I said, Mom, will you please, please, please stop emailing back and forth and talking with her?
It's really hard on me.
Sorry, you've asked your mom before to stop being in contact with Natasha?
Yeah, I asked her before to, yeah.
Okay. But she did anyways.
Which tells you what? That they don't care.
Okay, and how long have you been aware that they don't care about your preferences?
I don't know. I don't know.
I'm not sure that one's confusing to me.
Okay, but you're sure now, right?
Yeah. Alright.
And did your mother agree to stop emailing Natasha?
Well, she did after I explained it over and over, but there was a lot of arguing.
Okay.
And my dad got really upset and he got really mad and my mom got really mad and he basically kicked me out.
They kicked you out?
Well, they said I need their house, and said, like, not really kick me out, like, not get out, but it was, like, an argument that was pretty clear that I shouldn't be there, and then, um...
I'm sorry, and you're living at home, is that right?
No, no, no, I'm not. I'm living in a town, like, about 40...
Okay, sorry about that.
So I drive in every couple days, right?
Because I don't have the internet hooked up there or a lot of my stuff.
Because I'm trying to sell that house that's just sitting kind of like a prop.
Right. And so it's not too livable and I don't want to mess it up too much.
Anyway, so I said to my mom, don't talk to her.
I said to my parents, don't contact her.
And then they got all mad and I left.
And I contacted a friend of mine who was saying all those horrible things about me that was pretending to be my friend.
I contacted him and I asked him, I just said, do you remember a conversation you had?
Can you please not say those sorts of things about me when I'm not there?
David, what on earth do you expect me to say to all of this?
Right? Your girlfriend is insane, or your ex-girlfriend is insane, and you still remain in contact with her, then you get back together with her, then you ask her, Right?
To tell you about this guy who's saying bad things about you.
Then you go to your parents and you ask them for something and they shit all over you.
And then you go to your friend who's bad-mouthing you to your crazy ex behind your back and you ask him to treat you better.
Do you see the pattern here?
Yeah, like I shouldn't be asking these people anything.
I just get them out of my life.
Okay, right. So, go on.
So that's what I'm doing.
That's why I'm really doing this and I'm having a hard time because I feel like I've got these ideas and these standards that aren't being met even in the slightest.
And yeah, I was masochistic about it for a long time.
And I don't want to be masochistic about it.
I'd rather... I'm having a really hard time doing it.
Yeah, it's really tough.
It's embarrassing.
It's truly embarrassing.
But at the same time, in a fucked up way, that's all I've got.
Sorry, what have you got?
Well, all I've got is a bunch of crap.
So I go, okay, well, now I've got nobody, or I'm getting these people out of my life, and, okay, I've got them out.
So now, what do I have in my life?
I'm sorry, who have you gotten out of your life?
Well, I'm trying to get Natasha out.
I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to, like, say to my parents, this is either, this is what I expect from our relationship, or we can't.
Pretend that you care about me if you don't do the things that I ask because I asked you not to talk to her because it really upset me and then you did it anyways and that just shows that you don't.
So I'm telling them that that's really messed up.
And I'm trying to clean these things up and yeah, some of them need to get thrown away and so now I'm...
What do I have to replace those things with?
Nothing, really. Well, then you should stay with those things.
I don't want to.
Well, but you're giving yourself an impossible situation, right?
I mean, if you feel that the best you can do in terms of relationships is abusive and exploitive ones, then you should stay with those relationships.
Because if the alternative is nothing, solitude, complete loneliness, no human kind, I mean, then stay with the relationship.
If you can only eat bad food, it's still better than starving to death, right?
But I think I can have good ones.
No, that's not what you said to me.
What you said to me is, I'm going to replace them, or I have nothing to replace them with.
Yeah, I feel like at this moment I have nothing to replace them with.
Right. At this moment.
Okay. But I'm looking towards the future and I'm saying like, maybe and hopefully I can replace them with good things.
Right. I can't be certain about that.
How would I know for 100% certain that I can do that?
I don't know for sure. So I'm not going to say like it's going to happen for sure.
So maybe it is going to be loneliness.
Maybe it'll be really hard.
But I want to do it.
Is it your perspective that it's other people who are failing to reach certain ideals?
I think it's sort of a...
Well, no.
Other people are just like either...
The people that I'm talking about are either...
They're just not even understanding what ideals I'm talking about.
And they're just not.
But yeah, it's me too, for sure.
And I have to stand up for myself and I have to be this person that I want to be.
And it means me doing the work.
But what is the work?
The work is taking what I know To be true and honest and acting on it.
But how do you know that you even want to do that?
Because, I mean, to be perfectly honest, David, it would seem to me that you have used these higher standards mostly to torture yourself over the past year, let's say.
Yeah. Right?
Because if you say, well, honesty and treating people well and so on, If that is an ideal and you continue to surround yourself and be subjected to toxic people, destructive people, then it seems to me that philosophy would be part of the masochism, if that makes sense. Yeah, I agree.
So you may not even want these better things, as you say, because the best thing for you might be this feeling of rejection and despair and invisibility and exploitation and danger.
Like, that may be what the purpose of philosophy is for you, if that makes sense.
You know, like a fat person may put a picture of a thin person on his fridge, right?
But not because he wants to lose weight or whatever, but just because that's part of his humiliation, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it makes sense.
Because you're in a pretty low place, right?
And I know you're giving me some like, well, you know, rah-rah, we'll get better things probably down the road or whatever.
But I think that if you're using these values to torture yourself, then the values are just going to make you feel bad, right?
And that's sort of what...
But that's sort of...
Yeah, I agree.
And that's sort of...
That's really kind of where I'm at.
And it does feel that way.
You're right. It does feel that way.
And at times I'm like, well, you know, like, I think to myself, like, wouldn't it be great if I was seriously, like, just like, maybe I was happier before I even understood any of this stuff.
Right, right. Because it's not like I can pretend it's a bunch of opinions.
Like, it's the truth. And that's what sucks even more.
I totally understand.
I'm happier with a blue hat and I can just take off the blue hat.
Right, right. No, and the reason that I say that is because I don't think that you...
I mean, you had at least an hour to prepare for this conversation, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It's because you posted something on the board a little after 5 o'clock saying, Steph, I want to talk to you, right?
Yeah. And, you know, if I had been you and I wanted to regain the trust of someone who I had kept important things from, right, and gone against reasonable advice, right? Yeah.
Then I would have made sure, I would have written down things to say, okay, the first thing I need to say is, Steph, I'm totally sorry.
I kept all this from you.
I've been evading being honest with you because I've done these things and blah, blah, blah.
Like, you would have been upfront about that, right?
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does, but I don't think I was avoiding that.
I really just didn't go in prepared.
I just thought I'd talk to you.
Sorry, you don't think that you were keeping anything?
No, I do. I do think I was keeping things, but it didn't occur to me to apologize to you.
And especially when you're asking for help, right?
Like if you borrow $5,000 from me and I say, you know, please don't blow this on liquor and women and you go and blow it on liquor and women and then you come back to me a year later and say, I need another $5,000 because I got my money stolen when I know that you blew it on liquor and women.
That's pretty manipulative, right?
Yeah, it's awful. And again, this is not to make you feel bad.
I'm not trying to sort of play into that, right?
I'm just talking about the reality that you're not really interested in these values from a put them into practice standpoint.
you're interested in these values, I say is a possibility, a strong possibility, that you're interested in these values because you get to be deficient.
I get to be deficient and then that satisfies my need to feel like I'm not doing something right.
Right, and so I would submit to you, David, the possibility, again, this is all just windy internet nonsense, but I would submit to you the possibility that you called me because you hadn't been humiliated in a while.
that you needed the fix.
Because I don't hear from you for like a year, and then you're totally desperate for a call, and then you open up the call by evading and by snowing me, right?
Yeah. Does that make sense?
I'm your heroine, right?
I don't want to participate in that way and that's why I'm sort of Talking to you about this, and again, I don't mean this with any hostility.
I'm not saying that you have any bad intent or anything like that.
But I think that you hung on to Natasha because you need the humiliation.
I think that you beg her to tell you terrible things that your friend has said because you need the humiliation.
I think that you go and beg your mother to treat you with some kind of decency because you need the humiliation, which you got, right?
They called you an asshole and kicked you out.
This is your Simon the boxer, right?
You need to be humiliated.
You are so used to managing humiliation that in the absence of humiliation, you then have to call the most honest guy you know, who you know is going to call you on it, and give him a whole bunch of manipulative mythology, right?
Yes. Does this...
I mean, tell me what you think about this.
Again, it's just a theory. I mean, your...
It sounds accurate, but it sounds like something...
I didn't even think of it, though.
No, no, I'm not saying you did.
Please understand me. I'm not saying that you thought, hmm, let me go through my Rolodex.
No, I mean... No, I get that.
No, I'm saying I never even considered it as, like, an idea that I was doing that.
Right. When people want to speak with me very urgently...
I assume it's because there's been a recent crisis or because they have something really pressing that they want to tell me.
And what comes out of that, and you wouldn't know this because you're not in my shoes, right?
But the way it shows up when people really want to talk to me, they're very emotional, they're very this, they're very that, right?
And there's a kind of raw honesty that comes out of those conversations.
And you've heard some of those in the show, right?
Yeah. When someone is really, after a year of not talking to me, is really urgently wanting to talk to me, and then they give me a whole bunch of self-justifying, self-pitying mythology, with no reference to any conversations that we've had before, then clearly you're looking to be brought up short, right?
Yeah.
Especially since I've told you that she was a vicious exploiter, and then you play the pity card with me, right?
You know that's not going to work.
Deep down, you know that I wasn't going to go, oh, that's terrible, boy, how sympathetic.
Who could have seen that coming, right?
Right.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
And the reason that I'm bringing this up to you is not because, obviously, I don't want to humiliate you further, but I want to rather empower you with the idea that if you are addicted to this, then you will constantly need to bring destructive people into your life.
right? Right.
Because you said, and one of the things where I thought there was some real emotional content was when you said, you know, and Natasha was doing all of this and my girlfriend was right there, right?
Yeah.
And that was really humiliating for you, right?
Thank you.
Yeah. And it must have been really humiliating for your girlfriend, right?
Yeah. And it's also humiliating for you to have to explain how this all came about, right?
But, you know, just between us, isn't there a little bit of sick pleasure in that humiliation?
Yeah. I don't mean that you're sick.
I just mean that that pleasure is a little unholy, right?
I don't know.
I can see, like, if I look at it, like, as a reoccurring event, it kind of makes sense.
That feeling makes sense.
Like, it keeps occurring.
So why am I doing that?
There must be a reason. But I don't...
I don't feel good...
No, I don't feel good.
Well, but here's the thing, though, is that you have, over the last year, consistently pursued actions that would continually humiliate you, right?
Yeah. Right, in terms of not being part of the philosophy community, in terms of staying with Natasha for, what, five months after the email she sent while you were in Japan?
Yeah. Then breaking up with her, right?
And then you're like, holy shit, I've been a couple of weeks without being humiliated.
I'm going to get back together with Natasha, right?
Right. Does that make sense?
And then you go out with her for another couple of months, you break up with her, and then you're like, holy shit, I haven't been humiliated.
I'm going to beg Natasha to tell me what my friend said, right?
Yeah. And then it's like, holy shit, I haven't been humiliated in a while.
I'm going to let Natasha in when my girlfriend is here rather than call the cops, right?
Right. Do you understand?
You're setting yourself up over and over and over again.
And then it's like, oh my god, Natasha said that she got an email, an email from, or an IM from my mom, right?
Yeah. So then you go charging over to your mom's place where you get humiliated again, right?
And then you go charging over to your friend's place where you get humiliated again, right?
Yeah. And I think what's happening for you, David, and I mean this with all sympathy, I think you're getting sick of being humiliated.
I hope so. Well, I don't know.
Only you can tell when you hit rock bottom, right?
Yeah, it feels like I couldn't get any lower.
I mean, this feels like it.
No, no. You can get lower.
You can always get lower, right?
I mean, and what I mean by that is you can end up in the ground, right?
Yeah. Because this life, this life of a year's worth of in-your-face stuff till you burst humiliation is not really worth living, is it?
This life where you're tortured between being humiliated by people who claim to love you and being completely isolated and alone is not a choice that you would give to your worst enemy, right?
No. So, this shame addiction, this humiliation addiction has brought you low, right?
Very low, yes.
Now, it hasn't brought you so low that you will be honest at any cost because you didn't start off, again, with no prejudice, no negative judgment, you didn't start off this call being honest with me, right?
No. Because you weren't talking about you and your feelings and you and your choices and how tough it was to tell me that you'd gotten back together with Natasha.
All you did was talk about how badly other people were treating you, right?
So, you're not low enough to be honest yet, if that makes sense.
I would strongly suggest you don't roll those dice.
I would strongly suggest that you don't take the risk of going lower in the hopes of having a commitment to honesty erupt from you because that can drive you to suicidality, right?
Yeah. Tell me what you think.
I don't want to speechify the whole time.
No, that sounds like exactly how I felt this morning.
It's complete despair, isn't it?
Yeah, it feels like I look forward and I don't see anything good.
I feel like I'm walking in darkness and there's nobody around that's on my side.
Just like I'm completely alone.
Right. Right. Right.
Right. Right.
And what I'm struck by is that this is what I see from the outside, David, and you can tell me whether it makes any sense at all.
What I see from the outside is a guy who spends his days being punched.
And then, when I say, you should not be punched by people, he says to me, but then I would live a life without being punched.
And that's bad. Right?
Because, let's just say, everyone around you is treating you like crap, and you have actively avoided for the last year people who don't treat you like crap, which is the FDR community, right?
Yeah. And so I say to you, well, you should get the bad people out of your life, and then you say, but then I'd be all alone.
In other words, for you, being punched is better than not being punched.
Because in the absence of humiliation...
I bet you you feel really, really fucking depressed.
And the humiliation is what you use to jolt yourself.
It's what you use to... It's like self-cutting, right?
Sorry, I just get the feeling you're drifting off emotionally, so tell me where you are.
No, I'm listening to everything you're saying.
It's like a new idea for me, so I'm trying to...
Figure out why.
Why would I want to be humiliated all the time?
It sounds so strange.
Well, you've read RTR? No.
Oh, you haven't? Okay. Why would you have avoided that?
I don't know. I tried to download it and then it didn't work because I downloaded it and then I went back to my home where I live and it wasn't working.
But I read all the other ones and I think I get some of it.
I think you get some of what?
Like, the concepts.
Like, I've heard about them. Like, I've listened to all the call-in shows and everything, so I've heard you talking about it and everything, so...
Well, you should get a hold of it, and if you can't get a hold of it technically, just send me an email with your address and I'll mail you a copy.
Okay. Because in it there's something called...
It's a theory that I think is very good, useful in this situation, called Simon the Boxer.
And basically it's the idea that when we're repeatedly humiliated as children, we don't have any power over our environment, but we have power over our own feelings.
And so managing and controlling our responses to being humiliated becomes what we consider control and power.
In other words, I can manage my feelings of humiliation, but I can't manage being humiliated because that's my environment, right?
So our sense of power and our sense of control become around managing humiliation.
And that way, when we get older and we become free from our parents, we are still drawn to recreate that humiliation because that's how we get our sense of self and of power and of control over our environment.
And so in the absence of Because it's a fantasy to think that we control our environment by controlling our feelings or by controlling even other people.
It's a fantasy. So what happens is when we stop acting out that fantasy of control, of self-management, we actually get to the emotions behind the humiliation, which is despair, nihilism, and so on, right?
Yeah. And what you're afraid of is that in the absence of being humiliated, you don't exist.
The nothing is not your relationships.
The nothing that you fear in the absence of having people around you who treat you like crap, the absence, the emptiness, the nothingness that you fear is yourself, not your environment.
Does that make any sense? Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's all new to me, but I get it.
And So the nothingness, the emptiness that I felt like that's what I was walking around in was actually me.
Yeah, this is what happens if you begin to stop having people who want to humiliate you in your life.
You will feel like shit.
That doesn't sound like it.
But the longer, the longer, this is why it's so essential to change now, right?
You don't have the rest of your life to change.
And there's this fantasy, because, you know, a year ago, you basically said, well, you know, Steph might be right, he might be wrong, but I can piss away another year, right?
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Now, you don't have another year, I guarantee you.
Because every time you take that drug...
You get more addicted, and you get more empty.
Every time you get humiliated, you get more addicted, and you get more empty.
Yeah. So, the urgency that you felt was partly to re-experience some kind of put-down, and I hope that you haven't experienced that from me.
I'm trying not to put you down at all, because I don't want to.
But you have got to take your life by the balls.
And what I mean by that is you have got to make changes.
You have got to make changes.
Habits are like concrete.
They set around you.
And soon you can't move anymore, right?
Right. So you spent another year in the underworld of sick people, right?
Yeah. You don't have another year to spend.
If you spend another year, you're never getting out.
You don't have another month.
You don't have another week.
Okay. Before this crisis, what did you say to people on the board or in the chatroom about where you were?
Before, like, today, you mean?
Yeah, before this crisis that occurred.
You were saying some things about your emotional state or your life or your environment.
Do you remember what they were? I'm still a little bit confused by your question.
Like, are you asking what I said to Greg?
Oh, I don't know who you're saying it to.
I won't play this question game.
You said that you were bored, right?
Oh, that was a while ago, yeah.
Yeah, nothing's going on, I'm bored, right?
Yeah. And that boredom became unbearable, and so you sought out the stimulation of humiliation, right?
Yep. And that's what I mean when I say that it is not wise for you to be dating someone right now because you're not there.
And if she doesn't notice that, David, if she doesn't notice that you're not there, then it means that she's not there.
Which means she's only going to feed your emptiness.
and you're only going to feed hers.
Does she not know any of this about you?
Not, not, not, not in this kind of depth, no.
Okay, does she know it in a shallower kind of depth?
I think so. Well, but has she talked to you about it?
About, about...
About your depression, about your humiliating relationships, about this horror that you did.
Yeah, we talked about it, yeah.
I'm sorry? Yeah.
And what is she proposing that you do about it?
Is she asking questions?
I mean, what's happening in your relationship with this woman that is helping you to solve these issues?
She's strong about it and sort of like says...
I think I put up a false thing to her and I say, like, I don't want anything to do with her.
I'm trying not to have her in my life at all.
You know, she's nuts and I don't want that in my life.
That's exactly what I don't want.
And then she says, yeah, I don't see why you're even upset about it.
I'm sorry, she says, I don't even see why you're upset about what?
Well, she says, I don't see why, like, because I was really upset, and there was, like, the culmination of things yesterday, right?
It was running into Natasha and having her, you know, talking to her, and then the confrontation with my parents, and I would say, she'd say, I don't know why you're so upset, and the Natasha thing, like, I thought, you know, like, she's just crazy, and that's, You know, like, you thought you were just totally over that, and I would say, yeah.
Okay, sorry to interrupt you.
Sorry to interrupt you. Do you think, or did you expect that I would say to you, oh, I just, I don't know why you're so upset about it.
Did I expect you to say that?
Yeah. No. Why?
Because you respect my feelings.
And so when she says, I don't even know why you're upset about it, do you feel respected or not?
Well, maybe I'm...
You know the answer.
I'm sorry if...
Yeah, I know the answer, but I also don't want to put words in her mouth that weren't there.
No, I'm asking how you feel, not what she said.
Well, how I feel when she says things like that?
Yeah. I feel...
Like she's not validating my feelings?
Well, she's...
Look, there are guys in India who don't call me up every day and validate my feelings.
I don't feel bad about it, right?
She's actually rejecting your feelings.
Right. Right?
And what is that for you, emotionally?
How does that fit the pattern we're talking about?
Yeah, it's like my crack.
It's more humiliation, right?
Right. And then I apologize because I feel like I'm being...
I'm like, oh, I'm sorry that this is even occurring.
It's kind of embarrassing.
Right. Embarrassment, humiliation, shame.
Do you see? Yeah.
Fuck. Yeah.
Yeah, I'm addicted to it.
You're addicted to it and you don't have a long time to turn it around.
Right, there's no such thing as a little heroin to an addict, right?
No.
wants to change his life, especially when his addiction has brought him so low, he's got to change everything.
Do you understand?
Yes.
When a drinker has almost died from drinking, right, he can't go out with his party friends, right?
He can't go home to his alcoholic family, right?
This is going to kill you if you stay in this environment.
It may not kill your body, but it will kill your spirit.
And so you need to change everything.
If you want to live. If you want to have a different kind of life than these photocopied eat shit days that you've had for the last year, right?
Yeah, they're terrible.
Right, and you're getting a sense that it's not going to change, and you're right.
If you continue to accept this, if you continue to pursue it, So you've got to change everything.
This is just my advice. Now it's not advice that comes out of nowhere.
This is well known in terms of addiction that you have to change the whole environment, right?
Yes. So what does that mean to you?
What does that mean to me?
Yeah. Well, just like I said before, it means I'm dead, basically.
I don't know what that means. Well, it means like I feel...
It feels like my entire world disappears, and I'm replacing it with something else, but I don't know what that something else is, so...
It doesn't matter what it is, David.
Right? That's like saying, well, if I stop drinking tequila, if I stop drinking a gallon of tequila every day, what am I going to replace it with?
It doesn't matter what you replace it with.
Do you understand? Yeah, I get it, but it's still a fear of, like...
Well, but it's only a fear, and I understand the fear, but it's only a fear if you think that continuing to drink a gallon of tequila every day is an option.
Right. Yeah, it's not an option.
So this isn't an option.
So everything else is a fear, but it's only a fear.
But I don't have an option.
Well, you do have an option.
I mean, we all have options, right?
But the option is just going to lead you to a kind of spiritual.
Yeah, the options. Yeah, exactly.
The options are better. I mean, if the plane is crashing into the ocean, you have the option of staying on the plane, right?
Yeah. Or you have the option of jumping when it gets low, right?
Right. And you know if you stay on the plane, you're gonna die, right?
Yes. Because I also guarantee you, and this is where I really do have sympathy for you, David, this is where I have the most sympathy for you, if this helps, and real compassion, and really, this is not your fault.
It's not even so much that you are addicted to being humiliated, David, the reality, the truth of the matter that it's fundamental to your childhood and how you became this way.
It's not that you're addicted to To being humiliated, it is that everyone around you is addicted to humiliating others.
Yeah. Natasha is addicted to humiliating you.
Your friends are addicted to humiliating you.
Your parents are addicted to humiliating you, and they're the cause of it, right?
Yeah. So you don't actually even have an addiction.
Fundamentally, you are simply complying with other people's addictions.
Yeah. When you beg Natasha to tell you what your friend said, you are complying with her need for sadism.
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does.
It serves her need for cruelty.
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's not even so much that you're taking a drug, it's that you're giving a drug.
Does that make sense? Yeah, I see, yeah.
You're more of a dealer than a user, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does. And that's why you have to change your environment.
Because if you have people around you who don't have this compulsive need to humiliate you, then you will be much less likely to do it, right?
Yeah. To give them what you had to give your parents in order to survive, right?
Right. But that means getting out of the town, right?
And you're going to say, well, but I have this house, I've got to sell it, and so on, right?
But the house is not worth more than your soul, right?
No. And if you have the will to change, you will find a way to change, right?
Yeah, it's just so scary.
Right. But the important thing to remember is that the fear might well be not yours, but everyone else's.
Everyone who wants you with their whipping dog.
Everyone who wants to kick you around.
They may be afraid of you leaving.
In the same way that a crack addict is afraid if the dealer moves out, right?
Yeah. And tell me this.
Did you feel healthier in Morocco?
Did you feel healthier? Mm-hmm.
Um... I think I just sort of swapped the humiliators, I guess.
I didn't really, but I think I sort of put people in those roles over there.
Yes. To me, you sounded healthier in Morocco.
Yeah? Yeah.
Yeah, you're, like, healthier than here, yeah.
Yeah, I don't mean...
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I just have trouble just...
Putting it all together, but yeah, I mean, compared to right now, for sure, 100%.
Right, and that's what happened when you changed your environment, right?
It doesn't change you, but at least it keeps the temptation at bay, right?
Yeah. So, your surroundings are like a cancer, right?
It's like you're living in a tumor.
Yeah. Right?
Right. And you're losing yourself, right?
Right. It's so weird.
It's just... It's sad.
Well, the technical term is you got re-food, right?
Yeah. This is your childhood, right?
Yeah. This is it.
This is it. Fights with your parents, fights with women, fights with friends, humiliation, despair.
This is your childhood.
You got free food.
And this is why, if you have a toxic family, you can't be around them.
I see. Yeah.
It's messed up.
It sucks, you know. Yes, but it's time for you to stop living for the needs of others, right?
And it's time for you to at least start to make the commitment to yourself, David, that you're worth more than being kicked around like a dog, right?
Yeah. And that's going to require specific action on your part, right?
Yeah. So what can you do?
Not think, not listen, but what can you do?
Because thinking and listening hasn't helped, right?
You say, well, I listen to all the Sunday shows, and then you go and beg your parents to be nice, right?
Yeah. I know.
I can...
I can just leave.
I can sell the house. Just take off and let the realtor sell the house.
Yes. And just do it over the phone.
Yes. Just be somewhere else.
Away from all of these historical cages, right?
Where you get pushed back to who you were, not who you could be.
To who you had to be to survive in the past, not who you could be to flourish in the future, right?
Yeah. Because you're a good guy.
You're one of the good guys, right? I mean, okay, so you fucked up a year, you lost your way a little.
So what?
I've spent more time than that doing worse things.
I feel like I'm kind of detached from it right now.
Like I'm watching it, you know, like in the kind of...
It feels like I have to do this, but at the same time, it just doesn't feel like me.
Sure. I mean, that's called dissociation, right?
Yeah. And that's what happens when you're traumatized.
That's where I'm at. I just feel like it's so surreal.
Right. Like this is just one possible chapter and there's like all these other ones that I could be watching or, you know, like it's a movie and there's a bunch of other movies on and all I have to do is switch to channel and go to one that's good and just ditch this one that sucks.
Yes, for sure, but you have to jolt yourself with something other than humiliation to do that, right?
Right. And that jolt is what?
Well, the jolt is you just got to get sick of being treated like this and treating yourself like this and putting yourself into this situation.
You just have to get sick of it.
And I'm suggesting that if you get a lot more sick of it, you're going to endanger yourself.
So, just say, willpower is going to have to substitute for motivation, right?
Yeah. And shame, the humiliation, has pre-verbal origins, right?
That's why it's so hard to remember.
It doesn't feel like part of us, it feels like us.
Because it's pre-verbal, it happens in the crib.
There's a book, John Bradshaw, Healing the Shame That Binds You.
You can get it on Amazon for $7.93.
Okay. What's the name again?
Healing the Shame That Binds You.
I'm going to write that down.
It is about shame addiction and practical things that you can do to overcome it.
Okay. Send me your address.
I will send you a copy of RTR. You need to read that.
Okay. I'll do it.
I'll do it. This is hard.
This sucks.
Okay. Sorry, what sucks?
Like, knowing that I have to do this, it's going to be hard.
Compared to what? Compared to nothing, I guess.
Because let me tell you, right?
I mean, you call me, you ask for help, and all you've done is complain about me giving you help, right?
This sucks, this is terrible, this is bad, this...
Yeah, that's really...
I'm sorry. No, that's okay, right?
But I'm just saying that...
No, yeah, I get it. It's like, yeah, because it sucks compared to what?
Compared to every other option that sucks even worse, so...
Compared to dying, your soul, your spirit, yeah, not even close, right?
It's just hard, but everything else is going to be worse, and I need to do this.
Right. Again, you can not do it, right?
I mean, I want to keep your options open, because if you feel like you have to, you won't be committed, right?
You can go on eating shit sandwiches every day for the rest of your life.
A lot of people do, right? Right.
You can manage your depression.
You can continue to date women and be unavailable to them.
You can continue to be shamed by everyone in your life.
You can continue to drag yourself through this veil of tears.
And you probably will become a fucking Mormon or something, right?
Right. That's a viable option.
Lots of people do it. Yeah.
That's not good. I mean, in the abstract, I can look at all this stuff and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, and then everything gets a little harder when I have to do it myself.
Right. Well, that's true.
It's not easy.
It's just easy relative to alternative.
And look, you've got a community, right?
I mean, I know you don't have internet out where you are, and that sucks, for sure.
But, you know, do what you can, right?
Maybe there's some sort of godforsaken internet cafe within an hour or something, right?
But, you know, set yourself the projects.
You've got the time, right?
Set yourself the projects. Work through the workbooks.
You know, keep a thought journal. Listen to RTR. Read RTR. Whatever you can, right?
Yeah. And stay in contact with people.
Stay in contact with the community or any community that works for you.
Don't be isolated.
Just, you know, you can't do it alone.
And of course, if you can get into therapy, you absolutely need to.
But I know that things are tough that way.
Even group, right? Even if you got into group therapy, that would be great.
It's cheaper. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm going to try. I mean, I'm going to I was, like I said, I think I told you I was seeing a therapist, and then I couldn't because it was too expensive.
Right, and look, I mean, if you can't see a therapist because of money, that doesn't mean that you give up on self-knowledge, right?
Right, right, right. Right, because then you say, okay, well, shit, I can't, you know, it's not like I don't have a gym, therefore I can't exercise, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I thought I had some of this stuff, you know?
No, you didn't. Don't give me this.
Don't end the conversation with that crap, too.
Because if you thought you had it, you'd have been involved in the community.
You knew you didn't have it. You knew you were succumbing to old ghosts and demons.
And that's why you...
No, I know. Yeah, that's for sure.
But it's disappointing that at this point I am succumbing.
Yeah, maybe that's what I'm saying.
There's nothing wrong with post stuff on the board.
You can post stuff on the board and say, you know, this is what I'm thinking, what do people think, get their feedback and so on, right?
You don't have to lift the whole planet by yourself, right?
Yeah. No.
Yeah, it would be good to have people...
But you've got to be honest with people.
You've got to raise that bar for yourself, right?
Because you've still got the weasel bar, right?
Because if you're going to ask people for their help, if you're going to get them involved in your problems, you have to be relentlessly honest with them.
You just have to be. Because otherwise, they just won't stay interested in what you've got, right?
Yeah. It's just like how you were explaining it.
It's hard to engage someone who's not telling the truth.
Right. And again, I in no way mean to indicate that you were consciously trying to lie or anything like that, right?
That's just the way you were. So, I'm going to close up here, but is there anything else that you're dying to talk about?
How was the call for you as a whole?
Is there any major topic that we didn't cover?
I'm trying to think if there's any major topic we didn't, but let me know.
I think it was really good.
It was good. You know, there's lots of things I didn't even think were going on.
You could see them and I guess I saw them.
You know, that's good.
I appreciate it. I know you do.
Well, keep us posted.
Let us know what happens and, you know, make a plan.
Even if it's just a fantasy plan, just say, okay, what am I doing over the next month?
What am I doing week one, week two, week three?
What am I going to do to change my life, to change my environment, to get out of this cesspool?
Just make a plan. Even if you're just fantasizing, just make a plan and activate your brain that way.
Sometimes our brain just responds when it's poked with change, right?
Yeah. Alright?
Thank you. Alright, man.
man I'll talk to you soon all the best bye sorry if those who are still on Are those still on?
Anyone else? Hello?
Still here. Yeah, so it wasn't too harsh, was I? No, I don't think so.
I don't think so at all.
I felt a lot of, just in my exchanges with him in the chat room earlier before the call started, I felt a lot of anger and frustration at what he was saying.
I'm actually kind of glad you made it into a conference call because it really needed to be – It needed to be expressed vocally, I think.
Well, I knew that he'd involved other people in the issue.
Yeah. So, it seemed only fair.
And God love him, he sure did try a lot of manipulation at the beginning, right?
Yeah, yeah, he sure did.
I couldn't make a shower of it.
Yeah, it was like getting flipped around worse than some Philip Glass song.
Yeah. Yeah, it was very confusing.
I mean, he was totally confusing me in the chat room as well.
I didn't understand it all.
Yeah, I think the sequence of things was probably a little bit closer than he's saying.
It doesn't really matter. But yeah, he was definitely trying to sell me a bill of goods about victimhood.
Yeah, and he had actually, in the chat room with me, tried the suicide thing, and I wasn't having any of that.
I mean, it is genuine despair, for sure, but it is pretty manipulative to bring that up.
Right. Well, I said to him that...
Well, I said that...
What did I say?
I told him...
That was horrible, that he said he wanted to kill himself.
But then he said he actually felt relief at the idea of killing himself.
And my response to that was, well, that's just false self-bullshit.
Nobody feels relief at the idea of killing themselves, right?
At that point, he's just trying to manipulate me.
Right? If that is the situation, then he needs to check himself into a hospital, right?
A chat room isn't going to help somebody who's standing on a bridge, right?
Right, right, right.
That's exactly right. You know, if you're feeling relief, then there's nothing I can do for you.
Yeah, I mean, how is a chat room going to reverse that kind of self-destruction?
I mean, it's just not, right?
But it's putting a lot of burden on somebody in a chat room, right?
Right. Right.
Right. Somebody that he knows isn't really equipped to deal with an issue like that, right?
None of us are. I mean, that's legal stuff, right?
That's professional ramifications.
That's, you know, I don't do tracheotomies and I don't do suicides.
Right. This is philosophy, not medicine.
Right. Right. Because it could be a chemical imbalance.
It could be like a syllogism isn't going to help your serotonin levels, right?
At least not in the short run.
Right. Right.
Right. And what was interesting about that, too, was once I sort of drew that line in the sand, he stopped throwing that out.
Right, right, right.
Okay, good. Yeah, no, I was just, I never feel particularly comfortable when people are, you know, at a low point doing the tough love thing, but I didn't think there was any other way to approach it.
Right. I definitely got that sense from him as well.
He was sort of asking somebody to sort of grab him by the collar and shake him and say, dude, what the hell are you doing?
Okay, yeah, and hopefully he'll think about this masochism thing because I think that's really at the root of it.
Yeah, this was a really good call.
All right. Well, thanks for the stuff you put in the chat window, too.
That was helpful. And I'll talk to you soon.
Excellent. Okay, bye.
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