Aug. 27, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:27:13
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| Time | Text |
|---|---|
| Hey, Steph. Hey, how's it going? | |
| Alright, how are you? I'm very well, thank you. | |
| Can you hear me okay? Yes, that's just fine. | |
| Oh no, you're breaking up a little bit. | |
| Can you hear me? Is that alright? | |
| Yeah, this is good. I just listened to a podcast where it gets broken up a lot. | |
| I'm saying, oh, you're breaking up. | |
| Yeah, no, that was a problem. | |
| I've been working on it and hopefully it's solving, but I think at the moment it's Skype, so hopefully we'll be alright. | |
| Good, good. So, Rachel is listening in. | |
| We're sharing some headphones. | |
| I can't quite figure out how to loop her in on the mic. | |
| Wow, sharing headphones, that's so romantic. | |
| Yeah. Yeah. Well, hi, Rachel. | |
| It's nice to meet you. | |
| Hi, it's nice to meet you, too. | |
| Good. So, I don't know, a little background on what's been going on. | |
| Today, this evening, Rachel and I got... | |
| into a chat about some of her history that was I think a little emotionally draining I know it was a little emotionally draining so I don't Rachel's expressed to me that she's probably not going to participate as much as she was hoping to on this call at least but she'll listen in And I guess in general, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts recently. | |
| I've been back in the office and not on the road, so I've had a commute that I can listen on. | |
| And there's certainly been a lot of thought and discussion between the two of us about our families and our family situations. | |
| I guess what we're going to do about it. | |
| I have a feeling in the next few months things are going to come to a head with mine or both of ours. | |
| Around holidays and there's this whole drama about my mom having not met Rachel yet. | |
| So family has been the topic that's been We've taken up most of our discussion time recently. | |
| And sorry to interrupt, but just the conversation that you guys had tonight. | |
| Yes. Was it... | |
| We don't have to get into specifics, obviously, if you don't want to, but was it about history or was it about the future? | |
| It was about history. | |
| Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so... | |
| Some past relationships that were... | |
| We're pretty terrible. And some new information, some new stories that I didn't know before that she decided to share with me tonight. | |
| And are those past relationships with immediate family, or was it more extended? | |
| It wasn't with family. | |
| These were romantic relationships. | |
| Oh, I see, I see. | |
| Okay, got it. So the family thing's a bit different and not specifically about tonight. | |
| Okay, got it. | |
| So, we also, we just came back from a little walk, and I was filling Rachel in a bit on what was going on this morning, you know, that sort of engendered this call. | |
| We were discussing that a little bit, and she had some more examples of where this sort of shows up for me. | |
| And I have to say, it's... | |
| It's a block that I guess I was blind to or I didn't quite put together all the pieces and now I'm realizing how sort of pervasive it is for me and how important it is for me to sort of understand it or deal with it. | |
| I definitely don't want this to be a part of my life anymore. | |
| Sorry, I'm just trying to crawl back up off the ground with my motivation because you're saying, well, I guess I'll deal with it and I'm going to, you know, take it on. | |
| Let's do that. It's like the black hole, you know? | |
| I'm a little sad. | |
| I mean, there were situations that came up that... | |
| The whole situation, it's very sad for me. | |
| And I don't know. When we were chatting this morning, and I know we didn't even get into very much depth, but me just expressing, you know, that I felt left out and all those emotions were very... | |
| Old and very sad to me. | |
| They came on quite quickly and quite strongly. | |
| I think the lack of motivation is really... | |
| I think I'm a little scared to dive into this and see what's down there. | |
| I'm a little bit nervous about that. | |
| Well, but of course, this is going to sound weird, and obviously this is good for Rachel to hear me sounding weird right up front so she doesn't get surprised later. | |
| But if you weren't ready for it, you wouldn't have posted what you posted on the board. | |
| Can you repeat the question part of that? | |
| Well, if you weren't ready to deal with this, you wouldn't have posted what you posted on the board, right? | |
| Oh, we're having some trouble hearing you. | |
| Oh, am I breaking up? It's the headphones. | |
| Is it that I'm too quiet? | |
| I can try moving the mic closer to my mouth if you like. | |
| No, you sound like you're talking through a theremin or something. | |
| Yeah, it's a little bit robotic, I think. | |
| Is it a Skype issue? | |
| I don't know. What I can try doing is I'll try calling you back in just a second. | |
| I'll try switching directly to the internet and not going through a router, so I'll call you right back. | |
| Okay, that works. | |
| Hey, Steph. Hey, alright, let's try that again. | |
| Hopefully it'll work out alright. It's starting off bad, but hopefully we'll swing back into shape. | |
| Okay. I don't have anything else running on the net, so... | |
| Anyway, we'll just... I'm directly connected, not through a router. | |
| This is as fast as I can get, so we'll just hope for the best. | |
| Have you explored using other programs, or is it...? | |
| Do you know if it's just a Skype-related thing? | |
| I don't know if it's just a Skype-related thing. | |
| I haven't looked at using other programs, so I'm sure I could. | |
| Can you hear me at all? | |
| Yep. Okay. | |
| So, if you weren't ready to deal with this issue, you wouldn't have posted what you posted on the board? | |
| Yes. Yeah, no. | |
| I understand that. | |
| And just because, I mean, I have this weird laser-like ability to sort of hone in on what may be going on unconsciously for people, and it's not an ability you're unfamiliar with, so I'm sure that's why it came up for you. | |
| Sure. No, and, you know, I am very excited to look into it. | |
| I think it's a really good thing for me to do. | |
| Yeah. While we were off, Rachel reminded me that I told her earlier that I was a bit embarrassed by it. | |
| It doesn't fit with the story I tell myself, you know, being independent and being able to make up my own mind and That sort of thing. | |
| This need for approval is just a little embarrassing. | |
| Right. And you said that that had showed up for you with regards to me. | |
| Is that right? That's right, yeah. | |
| So I've definitely felt just a need to... | |
| For you to think that I'm doing well or I'm important to you and to the community and just sort of like this need for unsolicited feedback, | |
| I guess. Right, and just by the by, I thought that your interaction with Manuel was very good. | |
| Manuel? Yeah, yeah. | |
| Who's Manuel? I'm sorry, I forgot the name wrong. | |
| The guy from the Dominican Republic that you were talking to about manipulation? | |
| Right, Victor. Victor, sorry. | |
| Yeah, so I mean, I thought that was good. | |
| A good interaction. | |
| Thank you. I'm kind of at a... | |
| I don't know where to proceed from here. | |
| He kind of... | |
| The ball's in my court, I feel, on the post. | |
| His was the last repost, so... | |
| I'm a little at a standstill, but... | |
| Well, but you know what to do. | |
| If you wanted to RTR with him, you know what to do, right? | |
| Right. Which is to say, what? | |
| I don't really want to respond. | |
| I feel like I'm at a standstill. | |
| I don't know. Yep. | |
| Yep. So... | |
| Okay, so you feel that you want positive feedback from me or maybe from others on your participation in the conversation, is that right? | |
| Sure. When related to FDR, yes. | |
| And you didn't feel this in sort of phase one of your involvement with the philosophy, is that right? | |
| I... I think I did at the beginning, but it was just such a small group. | |
| I definitely remember that coming up as the conversation started to go into the free will determinism Sort of meta-convo, meta-conversation, which I didn't feel as involved in and didn't interest me as much. | |
| I definitely felt this coming up then. | |
| No, no, you were holding out for the conversations about nihilism. | |
| Right. Because those are really productive, right? | |
| Yeah. I heard a A podcast that you did, it must have been at the end of all that about just, you know, don't bother, skip to the childhood. | |
| You just end up going in circles. | |
| So I had a feeling there was a lot of history that went into that sort of advice. | |
| Right, right. Yeah, I felt it during phase one, I guess. | |
| We're calling it phase one. | |
| And I've been thinking about it today since we chatted. | |
| Immediately I thought of My experience with work, with the last year and a half of being with this company, feeling very sad when I felt I wasn't getting... | |
| I was underappreciated for the work that I was doing. | |
| And I remember saying underappreciated. | |
| And it would get to a point where I wouldn't want to go to work. | |
| I would... On a couple occasions, I cried with Rachel before having to go on a business trip. | |
| It came up a few times very strongly in that sort of sense. | |
| And with my relationship with Rachel, it's come up a few times. | |
| We just chatted about this before the call. | |
| This past winter, we would go out sort of into Rachel's environment where she knew people, and she would be very social with them, and I would feel left out, | |
| even though I would have friends there, and I became quite emotional even though I would have friends there, and I became quite emotional the next day, that, again, that I wasn't getting the sort of attention that I felt I needed the Yeah. | |
| Now, you're leading me on a fantastic goose chase here, right? | |
| I don't know if you're aware of that or not. | |
| I'm not. I felt like these were all sort of related to the same issue. | |
| I didn't want to bring up more than... | |
| More than... | |
| We can handle all at once. | |
| I guess it was just to illustrate that this is not a... | |
| I realize that this is not necessarily restricted to one area of my life. | |
| Well, no, it's just that you said to me about the nihilism conversation, or sorry, about the free will conversation, forget the symptoms of the present, go to the causes in the childhood, right? | |
| That's right. And then you started talking to me about work and Rachel, right? | |
| So, why don't we lift the veil and follow your advice, right? | |
| Yes. Which is, of course, where I was going next. | |
| Right. So, as a kid... | |
| The first things that came to mind were around lessons. | |
| As far as music, art, that sort of thing. | |
| I was a very active kid. | |
| I was enrolled always in tons of extracurricular, be the sports or sports before high school. | |
| Lots of art things, lots of art classes, lots of private music lessons, voice lessons, things like that. | |
| And that is... | |
| There's a connection there for me, but I'm just not feeling emotionally connected to any sort of approval seeking out of that. | |
| But it was the first thing that came to mind. | |
| Okay. What is your relationship with your parents' approval? | |
| That's another foggy territory for me at the moment because I don't want to be affected by their approval or disapproval, but I think I still am. | |
| Yeah, that's like saying you don't want to be affected by their sperm and their egg, right? | |
| I mean, it just is what it is, right? | |
| That's right. And in fact, your resistance, and first of all, I've got to tell you, not just because you're looking for positive feedback, but I think that the honesty and the vulnerability that you're bringing to bear on this topic with me is hugely admirable. | |
| I mean, Lord, if most of the people that I talk to have this level of honesty, well, my podcast would be very short, which is... | |
| You know, which is good. Or they'd be much more productive in the same time frame. | |
| So I really appreciate that, and you certainly have done some amazing stuff with that. | |
| But why don't you want to be vulnerable to your parents' disapproval? | |
| You cut out at the end. | |
| I assume that you asked why I don't want to be affected by my parents' approval or disapproval? | |
| Yeah, I said vulnerable to, but it's the same deal, yeah. | |
| Okay. Okay. | |
| I... I guess I don't know what that looks like. | |
| So I don't know what... | |
| It's hard for me to... | |
| Alright, enough storytelling. | |
| Okay, let me ask you another way. | |
| Thank you. If you say, I am vulnerable to my parents' disapproval, what is the feeling that arises in you? | |
| It's very sad. | |
| Okay, and what is the sadness? | |
| What am I sad... Okay, since you said that this is foggy, I'll give you a few energetic shoves and we can see if we end up with anything productive. | |
| It's like screech to a heart. | |
| Yeah, no, no. Look, I mean, we all have this retarded area within our brains, which is, you know, where propaganda meets forbidding meets emotional needs, right? | |
| Right. But... | |
| What I'm going to theorize, and you can just tell me if I'm just full of nonsense or whatever, but what I'm going to theorize, Ned, is that I think that you were born as somebody, as we all are, as somebody who wants approval from your parents, right? Now, if you simply could not get approval from your parents, then most times what people do is they kind of give up. | |
| Okay. You know, like, I'm not going to get approval from these people that is going to mean anything to me, so I'm just going to give up. | |
| Now, there are other more sophisticated parents, though, who consciously or unconsciously recognize in the children the desire for approval, the need for approval, and they play their children like a fish. | |
| Right? They use approval and disapproval to... | |
| To drive their children in particular directions, if that makes any sense. | |
| That makes a lot of sense. | |
| So it's like the kibbles and sticks philosophy of parenting, right? | |
| Yeah. And so for you, your desire for approval, I would guess, was actually used to control you. | |
| And that is why you feel... | |
| Humiliated by that desire. | |
| Okay. That seems to fit. | |
| Well, sir, there's a couple of ways to tell. | |
| Do you remember getting approval from your parents in any form? | |
| Sure. | |
| I mean – Yeah. | |
| Yes, I do. It's all coming up around school. | |
| I went to a... | |
| All-boys Jesuit high school that I had to take standardized tests for and apply for. | |
| That was approved. | |
| How well I did in that. | |
| I mean, that was coming right off of homeschooling, so I'm sure there was some pressure there that they did a good job or whatnot. | |
| Okay, and what about the homeschooling? | |
| Yeah, that's... | |
| It's a problem area. | |
| Honestly, the homeschooling thing is a huge fog to me. | |
| I remember a lot of fighting during it. | |
| I know that during it is when I became really religious. | |
| I'm sorry, let me just understand what you mean. | |
| Fighting with, was it your mom or your dad or both who were homeschooling you? | |
| My mom was the main teacher. | |
| My dad started to fall out of my life at about that point. | |
| Not physically, he was still always around, but I've just never had really a connection with him since high school or before. | |
| So... Okay, and with your mom, what were you fighting about when she was teaching you? | |
| The one that got me upset the most was the threat that they were going to send me to public middle school, and that the public's middle school in town was terrible. | |
| I knew some of the kids there from soccer, and they used to really kind of torment me. | |
| So that was terrifying to me, and that was always the threat. | |
| Now, sorry, I'm sorry to keep interrupting. | |
| That's the threat, but what was the fight about? | |
| The fight was, you're not doing your work, so we're going to have to send you to that middle school. | |
| And why did your mother believe that you weren't... | |
| I mean, let's say you weren't doing your work. | |
| what was your mother's theory as to why you weren't doing your work? | |
| I don't know. | |
| Yes, you are. Sorry. | |
| I know. Can I just say I know instead of I don't know? | |
| And just not say what it is? | |
| Absolutely. You can do whatever you like. | |
| Why did she think I wasn't doing my work? | |
| Well, I mean, can we say that I wasn't doing my work? | |
| Yeah, let's say that you weren't doing your work. | |
| That's fine, right? We can go with that as a theory. | |
| Because we're trying to figure out... | |
| Why your mom thought you weren't doing your work? | |
| So she... | |
| So... | |
| Every year she had to give the town, the public schools, a curriculum of what I was going to cover this year. | |
| And they would approve it and say that she could homeschool me for that year. | |
| And those curriculums were... | |
| Huge. And sorry, just so I clarify, how old were you when you made the transition to the Jesuit school? | |
| It was freshman year of high school. | |
| Do you know what age that is? | |
| 14 to 18 is high school. | |
| So you were homeschooled up to 14? | |
| Yeah. Um, yeah. | |
| And the whole thing is a fog? | |
| No, no, no. Okay, sorry, go ahead. | |
| Sorry. I went to, um, a Waldorf elementary school up until, uh, the end of the third grade when I was pulled out, um, and I started, uh... | |
| I did the homeschooling for fourth through eighth, but I did it in three years. | |
| I had done a double year of kindergarten, so I ended up going to high school at the time I should have, but I made up a year during the homeschooling years. | |
| Okay, sorry, I don't know the map. | |
| I lost the map. Okay, so you're homeschooling at the beginning, and then you went to a public school? | |
| So, from five years old kindergarten up until end of third grade, which is, do you know what ages those are? | |
| Nine years. | |
| I was eight or nine. | |
| I was going to a private school. | |
| Okay. Then from 9 to 14, I was homeschooled. | |
| And then from 14 to 18, I was with the Jesuits. | |
| And then 18 to 22, I was at private university. | |
| Yeah, okay. And why were you pulled out of your private school? | |
| My teacher was at least verbally abusive towards me and possibly physically. | |
| Possibly physically? I don't remember, but I remember being told that he was physically... | |
| that he hit me. | |
| Wow, okay. | |
| And, um... | |
| Why were you taken to homeschool rather than to another private school? | |
| Um... I was... | |
| The story was I, um... | |
| I was quite precocious and was already working ahead of my classmates and my mother has a teaching background and essentially a child psychology background and thought that she could do a better job at challenging me than a private school could. | |
| And did you have a preference yourself as to whether you wanted to be taught by your mother or to go to another school? | |
| At the time I did want to be homeschooled. | |
| I didn't enjoy school by the time I was being pulled out and homeschooling seemed like a really good idea. | |
| And did you not enjoy school because of the content or because of the abuse? | |
| I think because of the abuse. | |
| I was quite a different person. | |
| So at the private school I was at, I had the same teacher, first and second grade, and then third is when it changed to that man, and that's when I started sort of mentally dropping out. | |
| And was the assault or the attack or the verbal abuse – well, the verbal abuse obviously is not part of the school policy. | |
| Did the school policy allow for the hitting of students? | |
| You cut out a little. | |
| I'm assuming you said that you asked if the school policy allowed for corporal punishment? | |
| Right. No. | |
| So, were charges brought against this teacher? | |
| No. Why not? | |
| I don't know. | |
| Why do you think it did not happen? | |
| I don't think there was any proof. | |
| I don't think it was witnessed by anybody, and I... I just don't think it... | |
| I know that there was quite a few kids who were pulled out of my class that year. | |
| I think some of the parents tried to pursue it with the school administrators, but as far as I know, he continued to work there after that. | |
| Right, okay. | |
| And so what did you fight with your mom about when you were being homeschooled from 9 to 14? | |
| You said that she didn't think you were doing your work or didn't want to do your work? | |
| Yeah, that I wasn't... | |
| I wasn't doing my work and that they would have to send me to public school. | |
| And that I really didn't want to go because I thought the kids were going to beat me up. | |
| And when you... Sorry to just jump back to the private school. | |
| How long did the verbal abuse go on for and did you talk to your parents about it? | |
| And how long was it before you got pulled? | |
| I think it all happened very quickly. | |
| I think it was within... | |
| I think it started a couple weeks, and then maybe a week, and then that doesn't make sense. | |
| But I know the time that I remember really being yelled at and just sobbing and feeling miserable, I never went back after that. | |
| Right, okay. Okay. | |
| And did your mother or did your parents talk to you about the after effects of this, you know, pretty frightening series of episodes with your teacher? | |
| I believe they did. | |
| They also brought me to the pastor of our church, and I spoke with him on two occasions about it, and also brought me to sort of this, I don't know, new-agey sort of art therapy kind of I don't know, mystical thing. | |
| Whereas I think that was supposed to be therapy as well. | |
| And your mom and dad did talk to you about this, right? | |
| Yes. Okay. So when your mother, Ned, threatened to send you to public school, she was actually threatening to send you in a way back into the same situation that they pulled you out of for being abusive insofar as you felt afraid of emotional abuse or physical assault, right? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. | |
| That's, I think, what it felt like, yeah. | |
| Sorry, you think that's what it felt like? | |
| Well... I mean, it was really... | |
| I remember just being terrified of it, of going to that school. | |
| Right, okay. So, I mean, you were basically being bullied, right? | |
| Yeah, I think that's clear. | |
| By your mom and threatened with having other people act out verbal or physical abuse, right? | |
| Yeah, I mean, there certainly was. | |
| It was like that was the only option. | |
| I think the other options were taken off the table and it was either you do your work or we send you to this place where, you know. | |
| Sorry, can you tell me what you mean by the other options? | |
| I don't know. I don't remember entirely, but I think there was... | |
| I don't know for sure. | |
| If you were to talk to your mother and say to her now, if you were to talk to her and say... | |
| Mom, you were an educator and you studied some child psychology. | |
| Where is the theory that says that a good way to motivate children and to make them enthusiastic about learning is to threaten them with physical or verbal assault? | |
| Because she's educated, right? | |
| She's not out of the Ozarks, right? | |
| I mean, she's not straight off the boat, right? | |
| No, she has a shockingly large amount of education. | |
| Okay, so just like the option is to not threaten your child with physical and verbal abuse, right? | |
| That's an option for an educated woman who understands child psychology, right? | |
| Yes. So help me understand that. | |
| I talked to her about the abuse from the elementary school, and her answer was, I asked her why they didn't send me to a psychologist after that. | |
| And she said that they had done the priest thing and the New Age thing, and that was enough. | |
| And I asked about... | |
| So, sorry, she said that was enough. | |
| She, yeah. I mean, she said that she felt that that was... | |
| That was an appropriate amount. | |
| Do you understand why that's a non-answer? | |
| Because it's not... | |
| She should have some sort of reason why it was enough? | |
| No, Ned. No. | |
| Because it's not her decision when it's enough for you. | |
| It's like me having a dinner with my wife, and I'm full, and I take away her food saying, hey, it's enough. | |
| I remember asking her about the arguments that we, or the fights that we had about the public school, and I don't or the fights that we had about the public school, and I don't remember what her response to Which would be very valuable right now. | |
| But for sure, there would be no theory that says you threaten your child with physical and emotional abuse in order to motivate them to enjoy learning, right? | |
| Yes. In fact, all of her education would be specifically counter to that, right? | |
| Yes. So she's got a kind of angry will here, at least extrapolating from what you've told me about the past, right? | |
| So from 9 to 14 when you were homeschooled, she had things which she had to teach you according to the curriculum that she submitted, right? | |
| That's right, yeah. | |
| And what were the consequences if you didn't learn those things? | |
| I mean, there wasn't really. | |
| I mean, there's... The big pot at the end of it was I had to pass this standardized test and go to private high school. | |
| So why was it such an absolute that she had to threaten you with basically being sent to what you, I'm sure, at the time perceived as prison, right? | |
| Yes, absolutely. | |
| To threaten... | |
| A child with prison. | |
| Because... Like... | |
| What was so dire that that had to be... | |
| That was the only thing on the table? | |
| do this or go to prison. | |
| I can't think of it. | |
| I mean, there's nothing that would warrant that, certainly. | |
| But I can't think of what... | |
| In her mind. I mean... | |
| Okay, let me ask... | |
| I'm having a hard time just accepting that she was bullying me just to bully me. | |
| Oh, look, I don't think... | |
| I'm not saying that she was bullying you just to bully you. | |
| That's not where I'm coming from. | |
| Sure. I mean, that's... | |
| Yeah, I don't... I'm just saying there was no external reason for it. | |
| And all of her education told her that that was the exact wrong thing to do. | |
| It's the exact wrong thing to do, yeah. | |
| Right, right. I mean, you'd have to go back to a 19th century German textbook under Bismarck to find this theory of childhood motivation, right? | |
| Yes. Yes, yes. | |
| Now, just to take a silly example, but just so you understand it, if you talk to your mom and you ask her these questions and she's hesitant or evasive, are you permitted to say to her, if you don't give me an answer, a friend of mine is going to come over and beat you up? | |
| Right. I mean, that would be a shocking thing to say to your mother, right? | |
| Yeah. He's going to come over and he's going to punch you in the face and he's going to grind your face into the dirt. | |
| Yeah, that's pretty terrible. | |
| But this was her approach to you. | |
| If you don't do what I say, if you don't answer my questions, if you don't learn, I'm going to send you to public school where you're going to get beaten up and attacked, right? | |
| Right. Yes. | |
| Yes. Now, this doesn't connect with you at all emotionally, right? | |
| I just, this whole time, just kind of felt this sort of sadness and knot in my throat. | |
| There's a scratching noise. | |
| It's coming from your side. I'm not sure what that is. | |
| I'm sorry. I think the cord's hitting the mic there. | |
| All right. Because what I'm feeling is a kind of outrage, and I think that that's because you're not feeling it. | |
| Yes. I just, I guess it's unbelievable to me. | |
| What is it? I don't understand. | |
| I know it happened. | |
| And I know that the consequence, but what it means. | |
| I don't understand the why. | |
| I don't... Look, I mean, I'll step you through it, so at least you can get the why, because I know that that's torturing you, so we'll take a shot. | |
| Is that okay? Yes. | |
| Okay. Here's the why, Ned. | |
| The why is that if I am an educator, and I am failing to educate someone, I have two choices, right? | |
| I can blame myself, or to be more accurate, I can take responsibility for For my failures as an educator. | |
| Or... I can just blow up at my customer. | |
| Yes. Right? | |
| Yeah. And clearly, your mom was not so much with the column A, right? | |
| Right. Because a sensitive and intelligent teacher... | |
| your mom is certainly intelligent, certainly well-educated, will say, tell me what's missing that you don't want to study this stuff. | |
| Right, yeah. | |
| I mean, my input was never, or it wasn't solicited as much in the making of the curriculums, but I mean, like, if I had a direction that particularly interested me or that I was going in, she, I mean, for example, I think we spent, like, half a year or something studying ancient history when it was only supposed to be, you know, a little bit of time, you know? | |
| Right, and it wasn't something that was particularly interesting to you, is that right? | |
| No, that was fascinating to me, and we took time on it. | |
| Oh, it was? Okay. Spent hours at the museum and just kind of dove into it where I wanted to. | |
| Okay. I feel like my opinion was solicited to an extent, and also that the story that I... I don't know. | |
| I'm having trouble... Because that doesn't go with the fights. | |
| Well, look, I mean, everyone gets along when you all agree, right? | |
| Right. So, if your mom wants to go to the museum and you want to go to the museum, it's pretty hard to have a bad time, right? | |
| Right. The challenge in relationships is where you disagree, right? | |
| Right. Right. | |
| And if she was willing to go, look, I mean, without wanting to pump up the empathy side of you, it's a pretty desperate place for a parent to go to say, do this or you're going to get beaten up. | |
| I mean, that is a confession of a complete failure as a parent, right? | |
| Yeah, I can see that. | |
| No parent sits there and says, boy, I can't wait to start shaking my fist in this kid's face, right? | |
| Right. It is a kind of absolutely desperate, horrible place to be as a parent, right? | |
| Yes. In the same way that threatening to hit your wife or your husband is a desperate failure on the part of any spouse, right? | |
| I mean, you're fucked at that point, right? | |
| I mean, you've got nothing left, right? | |
| You're just completely hysterical. | |
| You are completely at a loss. | |
| You're completely out of solutions. | |
| And you are unable to manage. | |
| Violence arises out of tension, right? | |
| And the tension is, I must do it, I can't do it, right? | |
| I have to do it, and I can't do it. | |
| And if I don't do it, I'm going to get horribly punished, but I can't do it. | |
| And I have to avoid the punishment, but I can't avoid the punishment. | |
| And that tension, that impossible situation makes people crazy. | |
| I have to, but I can't. | |
| Right. So you had to learn stuff, but she can't force you to learn it, right? | |
| Right. And you sense that she wants you to learn it because of her, not because of you, right? | |
| Right. And so you resist, right? | |
| Yes. Because nobody likes being a puppet for other people's neuroses, right? | |
| Yeah, there was a call-in show that I listened to where there was a female caller who was talking about how anytime somebody wants her to do something, she resists. | |
| Yeah. Do you remember that one? | |
| Yeah, everybody does. | |
| Yeah, that was important for me. | |
| I feel like I do that a lot. | |
| Right, right, right. | |
| And so, when you want someone to do something, and you want your child to learn, and you feel that it's not a choice, he has to learn X, Y, or Z, right? | |
| Yes. And your child senses that it's your anxiety that is driving that, right? | |
| Yes. And your child then resists, right? | |
| Yes. He has to learn it or the world will end. | |
| He is refusing to learn it and the more I want him to learn it, the more he refuses to learn it, right? | |
| Yes. That escalation of dominance and resistance is only broken by one of two things. | |
| Either you give up the absolute or you aggress. | |
| Not you, your mom. | |
| Right. Does that make any sense? | |
| Yes, it does. Your mother clearly was not able to give up the absolute, right? | |
| Right. Because when you give up the absolute, like... | |
| The absolute isn't you have to learn it. | |
| Maybe you did have to learn stuff to get into high school. | |
| I'm sure you did, right? Otherwise you'd be put back in grade 8 and it'd be pretty embarrassing. | |
| You'd be too big for the chairs, right? | |
| So you did kind of have to learn stuff. | |
| But... For your mother, the absolute was... | |
| I have to be a good teacher. | |
| I am a good teacher. | |
| And if little Ned isn't learning, it can't be because I'm a bad teacher. | |
| Yeah. | |
| Yeah. | |
| I mean, that makes sense. | |
| I... Yeah, no, that's right. | |
| And what would have happened to your mom if she'd have taken that deep breath that God knows we wish all parents would, if she'd taken that deep breath and said, things are kind of getting crazy here, right? | |
| I am obsessed and in a ridiculous battle with my nine-year-old kid. | |
| I've lost perspective. | |
| Clearly, I have problems taking theory and applying it to practice. | |
| I have emotional barriers, I have emotional immaturities to the application of wisdom, the wisdom that I have studied, the knowledge that I have studied, to a real world scenario, right? | |
| I'm not living my values and I've turned into someone I don't want to be, right? | |
| Thank you. | |
| Where I'm shaking my fist at my kid and threatening him with dire consequences, right? | |
| I'm sorry, you broke up a little bit. | |
| The shaking the fist I got, what was the point? | |
| Well, shaking your fist at your kid and threatening him with dire consequences, right? | |
| So, if she had humbled herself and admitted her lack of competence, her lack of maturity, and her lack of knowledge in this area, what would have happened to her life as a whole? | |
| I mean, actually, or in her mind? | |
| Well, let's go with actually, because I bet you what was in her mind was probably pretty close to accurate. | |
| Well, I think... | |
| I think these arguments were coming up around... | |
| I mean, at the beginning, I think it was fine, because we were just kind of learning, like, casually, and what we wanted to learn in things. | |
| And then when it started studying for that test to get into school, there was that have-to... | |
| And I just remember the threats of the middle school were kind of outrageous because it was like half a year or something that I would have to go there. | |
| You know, it just kind of didn't make sense to me anyways. | |
| So I don't actually know what the... | |
| I mean, if she admitted that she was failing at this, I mean... | |
| I don't know. She was a bad parent? | |
| Okay, let's throw dots and see what we hit. | |
| I feel so stupid about this. | |
| No, no, don't. I mean, well, you can if you want, but it's not. | |
| I mean, you've heard everyone else where you're shouting the answer at them, right? | |
| Yes. Right. And it's totally clear, right? | |
| Now it's my turn. Now it's your turn, right? | |
| In the foggy spotlight, right? | |
| Okay. Okay. The issue is your dad. | |
| How the fuck did your dad let it come to this? | |
| Yeah, that's a really, really good question. | |
| I mean, if I come home and my wife is yelling at her child, threatening him with being sent to where he's going to get beaten up, I mean, oh my god, right? | |
| Yeah. The other part of this is, I mean, this was the level of verbal fights that they had. | |
| Between each other. I mean, I just remember growing up and every now and then it would just explode to these, you know, four or five hour yelling and arguing things. | |
| I mean, it felt very similar to that. | |
| Like now I was involved in the same kind of yelling that my parents have been involved in. | |
| Now, you were having inflicted upon you the same kind of yelling. | |
| Yes. Right? You didn't get involved in it, like, you know... | |
| Sorry, yes. You got involved in drugs, right? | |
| I picked it up one day and found it suited me. | |
| No, yeah, no, that's right. | |
| It was inflicted upon me. | |
| Okay, so your mother was verbally abusive to your father and your father was verbally abusive to your mother, right? | |
| That's correct. So... | |
| Now, when they were verbally abusive, did they treat each other with contempt? | |
| Like name-calling? Yeah, name-calling, denigration, and so on. | |
| I believe so, yes. | |
| Come on, you were there. Don't give me this. | |
| Yeah, I think there was name-calling. | |
| You think there was name-calling? | |
| Yeah. I'm not going to budge from that one. | |
| Yeah. I'm not trying to make things up, right? | |
| But this went on for years, right? | |
| Well, that's what I'm trying. | |
| I'm trying to not make things up, too. | |
| Okay. If it goes on for five hours... | |
| Yeah. It's not good, right? | |
| I mean, there's probably nothing that didn't happen, right? | |
| Yes. Yeah. | |
| There was name calling. So, if your mother... | |
| Had said to herself, I should not verbally abuse my child or threaten him with these terrible consequences because verbal abuse is bad, right? | |
| What happens to her marriage? | |
| Well, she would have to apply that logically to the verbal abuse that was... | |
| That, you know, the verbal abuse between her and my dad. | |
| And what happens to the marriage if she does that? | |
| Everybody stops yelling and thinks they're great and we all eat ice cream cones. | |
| Don't make me come over there. | |
| They would... | |
| Yeah, the marriage would be over. | |
| The marriage would be over. | |
| And was she in touch with her own parents at this point? | |
| Were they alive? Yes. | |
| Okay, so if... | |
| Obviously she got this from her family, right? | |
| Nobody just wakes up one day and decides to start screaming epithets at people, right? | |
| That's right. So she would also have to confront her own parents, right? | |
| Yeah, there's some great history there that I'm sure will be... | |
| Her mom and dad are separated, and there was a screaming match between her dad and her, and they no longer talk, and her dad's living with a mistress, and it's a mess. | |
| Right, so it's horrible, chaotic, messy shit, right? | |
| Yeah, and apparently that was going on for most of her life. | |
| The mistressy thing? | |
| Or the screaming thing? The whole thing. | |
| Just the dysfunction. | |
| Right. Okay, so she would have separated from your dad. | |
| She would have separated from her family. | |
| What was her career, or does she have one? | |
| I can't recall. She was a stay-at-home mom with me before me. | |
| She was a speech therapist, which got into the realm of child psychology. | |
| As well. She's a trained speech therapist, but had to deal with cases that were extreme abuse and things like that. | |
| And what was the point of her education? | |
| Was it a hobby? I mean, you say she's very well educated. | |
| She stayed at home. Nothing wrong with staying at home. | |
| I just don't quite understand the point of the... | |
| She has a real lot of degrees. | |
| I've asked her many times to explain to me what her education was, and I've yet to get an answer from her, but I know she has a whole lot of degrees and a whole lot of honorary degrees and just a ton. | |
| I'm sorry, honorary degrees? | |
| Yeah. For what? | |
| I mean, Nelson Mandela, I can understand. | |
| I don't get this connection. | |
| I have no idea, honestly. | |
| I know she has at least one, though. | |
| Okay, at least one. So, okay. | |
| You said a bunch of honorary degrees. | |
| Well, okay, I'm sorry. | |
| At least one honorary degree, and she has at least two undergraduate and two graduate that I know of. | |
| And why does she have these degrees? | |
| No, I don't mean practically. | |
| Sorry, I know. I'm just switching the question. | |
| But why does she have them emotionally? | |
| I mean, does she use does she use them? | |
| Do people know that she has these degrees? | |
| Nobody knows that she does. | |
| Okay, well that may be too murky a question to ask. | |
| Yeah, I mean, she was in the hospital a lot during those years and on crutches a lot, and I think there's a lot of psychology going on there. | |
| Okay. Okay, so it would have been a disaster for her, as she would have perceived it, and a genuine one in terms of her life, for her to confront herself on verbal abuse, right? | |
| Yes. Because of her marriage. | |
| And her family. | |
| Well, I mean, she wasn't speaking to her dad and her mom. | |
| I mean, her mom's an alcoholic who... | |
| It's, you know, sort of in and out of, I mean, she's still in contact with her, yes. | |
| But, yeah. | |
| And when you were, sorry, I guess we're talking 20 years ago. | |
| Was that the case then as well? | |
| She's, yeah, she's always been an alcoholic. | |
| No, sorry, what I mean is, you said that, I mean, 20 years ago, was your mother in touch with her parents? | |
| Yes. Right, because we're talking about the decisions that she made when you were seven, right? | |
| Right. I think my grandfather left the picture around in those years. | |
| It was somewhere around there. | |
| But she was still in touch with her mom, right? | |
| Yes, yes. She's still in touch with her mom now. | |
| And... As we know from this process where you confront yourself and you authenticate or you become authentic or you strive to, that it has massive ripple effects on all your relationships, right? | |
| Right. Yes. | |
| So it would have been her husband, her mom, any remnant of hope with her dad, her friends. | |
| I mean, it would have been the whole thing, right? | |
| That's right, yeah. I mean, you light a match and the whole fucking forest goes up, right? | |
| Right. Right. | |
| Right. So that's what's on the other side of not bullying you. | |
| Yes. | |
| Yeah. | |
| Yeah. | |
| Thank you. | |
| This is not at all, of course, designed to give you sympathy. | |
| I mean, it's not designed to do anything other than to just sort of point out the stakes that she was playing with, right? | |
| Right. She doesn't have any tools other than bullying, and you have to learn this stuff, right? | |
| So this is how in the lack of self-knowledge, in the lack of self-reflection, and the lack of applying her education, this terrible situation arises. | |
| I have to wake the baby up and all I have is an air horn. | |
| *sshh* Yes. Yeah, I see. | |
| Yeah. And there's a grinding repetition to this kind of interaction. | |
| It's the same fucking day, over and over, right? | |
| When you have these kinds of conflicts. | |
| For her? Well, for both of you, really. | |
| Yeah, it was. It became very monotonous. | |
| And your dad, of course, couldn't intervene because he'd lost his credibility by himself being verbally abusive. | |
| Yeah. Yeah, he did. | |
| I remember listening to their fight. | |
| I would listen to the whole fight, and I would become enraged, and I would every time take my mom's side. | |
| Why? Why? I felt my dad was being irrational. | |
| I would talk to my mom after the fights, and she would talk to me after the fights, and I never talked to my dad after the fights. | |
| Oh, so she used you. | |
| It certainly looks that way. | |
| I'm not looking at anything. | |
| I'm just going by what you're saying. | |
| Yes, yes. | |
| She used me. And you're still doing it now, right? | |
| I don't know if you're aware of that. | |
| I'm still defending her. | |
| Yes. Yes, I am. | |
| I absolutely am. | |
| And why? She terrifies me. | |
| I understand that, but the antidote to terror is anger, right? | |
| Not compliance. | |
| Yes. Yes. | |
| And why does she terrify you now? | |
| Uh... I don't know. | |
| I know she shouldn't. | |
| I mean, she... | |
| I don't think she shouldn't. | |
| I think, as I've always said, we're always terrified of her parents. | |
| But I mean, like... | |
| I don't know. | |
| I do things like, I missed her birthday, and she got angry at me, so then I sent her a large birthday, larger than I should have sent her. | |
| And then she was okay. | |
| I mean, it's just like I'm just scared to stand up and be like, you know. | |
| That's why I think... | |
| But I don't understand why I can't just be like, well, she doesn't have control over me anymore. | |
| I'm living my own life. | |
| You know, it's... | |
| I don't have much in common with her. | |
| I mean, it's not even... | |
| I just don't... I don't... | |
| I don't like still being controlled by her. | |
| You don't like still being controlled by her? | |
| I don't like being scared of her. | |
| Well, but you reject the feelings of fear, right? | |
| I mean, as far as I understand it, you try to minimize or push them away, right? | |
| Well, I know I'm... | |
| I know I'm... | |
| I know I'm managing them. | |
| I don't... | |
| I mean, what if you were to just feel the fear of her? | |
| Feel the fear. The truth. | |
| The truth about what you're experiencing. | |
| Of her now. Then I would... | |
| I would just feel those emotions, I guess. | |
| Well, but then what, right? | |
| What would happen then? Then I would have... | |
| Then I would just... | |
| What am I doing? | |
| I mean, I would have to... | |
| Does Rachel ever find you emotionally unavailable? | |
| Rachel, do you ever find me emotionally unavailable? | |
| Have I in the past? Did you hear that at all, Steph? | |
| No, I'm sorry, I didn't. She said towards the beginning, but not as much lately. | |
| And if she can talk to me, that would be great. | |
| if you could switch. | |
| I just want to ask her what's... | |
| Yeah. | |
| Okay. | |
| Oh, hi. | |
| Sorry to jump in. | |
| I know you weren't that keen on talking and you don't have to, but I'm just curious because I can't see. | |
| What's your experience of Ned? | |
| Have you been hearing both sides of the convo? | |
| Is that right? Yeah, I have. | |
| And what's your experience of being in the room with Ned while he's talking about this stuff? | |
| Well, it's very layered. | |
| It's very intricate, so... | |
| Right now it's frustrating for me that... | |
| I think he didn't want to admit that he still defends his mom. | |
| And I don't think he defends her totally out of fear. | |
| But I don't, that's something I would want him to explore more. | |
| Right. | |
| Because he jumps into laughter about stuff a little bit. | |
| This is not a criticism, right? | |
| I'm just trying to sort of figure out where he's at, right? | |
| There's lots of voices. And I know that he's very analytical, right? | |
| So he thinks through stuff. | |
| Or he says, you know, yes, I defend her, right? | |
| As if it doesn't have implications, if that makes sense. | |
| Right. No, totally. Yeah. | |
| I don't think he's letting it sink in or realize that he actually does defend her. | |
| Okay. | |
| Yeah, and I just wanted to know, because, I mean, you obviously know him a lot better than I do, and I just wanted to sort of get your impressions, because I've been sort of trying to go around from different sides trying the house, right? | |
| Trying to see which doors are open. | |
| Right. And I can't find a door that's open, so to speak, if that makes sense. | |
| And I was just wondering if you had that experience either tonight or at the Times been talking with Ned about these issues. | |
| I'm sorry. | |
| Could you repeat the question you were cutting out? | |
| Oh, sorry. I just feel like I'm sort of going around a house and trying to find doors that open, and I'm not finding doors that open. | |
| Or if they open, they open to another door that's locked, or a wall. | |
| Is that your experience when talking with Ned about these kinds of issues, or is it different? | |
| Um, somewhat. I think that there are some blocks there. | |
| Like I said, with the, um, defending her thing, I think there's definitely a block there. | |
| Um, and... | |
| One thing that we've talked about is that, uh, Ned has problems of vulnerability. | |
| So, like, if he's feeling vulnerable, he'll make a joke or something right afterwards. | |
| So... Like, if we're being romantic and, you know, having a moment and he says something really sweet, he'll have to say something funny right afterwards to sort of cancel it out. | |
| Right. So I think there's... | |
| There's blocks up with his mom around all of these issues. | |
| And then... | |
| I don't know how related the fear of vulnerability thing is, but I know that it's there. | |
| And sorry, if you could just move your bike a little bit away, it's kind of breathy. | |
| Were you around, and I'm sorry, just do pass Ned my apologies, just because I don't want to talk about him like he's not here, so I really do apologize. | |
| But were you around when Ned forgot his mom's birthday and then sent her this big gift afterwards? | |
| Was I around? Yeah, I mean, you were involved in that decision or that process? | |
| I wasn't involved in the decision. | |
| I didn't even know that he'd sent her a gift until, like, probably a month later. | |
| So you didn't know that he'd forgotten about the gift? | |
| You didn't know that his mom had gotten angry at him and you didn't know that he'd sent her another gift? | |
| I knew that she got angry. | |
| He shared that with me and that, um, you know, he sort of thought she was sort of being a diva and making a big deal out of it, but, um... | |
| He didn't tell me right away that he was going to send her a large gift to make up for it or anything like that. | |
| And so your understanding was that he was not going to send her a gift because he thought she was being a diva? | |
| Yeah, pretty much. | |
| And then how did it come out that you found out that he had sent her a gift? | |
| I think the next time he got worked up about her or angry, he just mentioned like, and I spent all this money on this gift for her, you know, for really no reason. | |
| That must have been a bit of a surprise for you, right? | |
| Really. I mean, it didn't really surprise me because I knew that when he brought up that she was angry, I could tell that he was really stressed about it and anxious. | |
| So, I was a bit surprised, but when I thought about it, you know, it made sense. | |
| Right. It seems, I mean, you guys live together, is that right? | |
| Yeah, we do. It seems a bit secretive, and this is without any negative judgment or anything like that, but it seems a little bit secretive. | |
| It seems a little bit... | |
| Whenever Ned's around his mom brain or his mom image or whatever, he seems to me very isolated. | |
| Do you know what I mean? Like he kind of goes into a cave with his mom and he makes decisions and then he will bring you the results, so to speak, right? | |
| Yeah. Is that your experience at all? | |
| Does that make any sense? Yeah, it makes total sense. | |
| And it's that solitary aspect of his relationship with his mom that I guess concerns me, right? | |
| Yeah. Well, recently... | |
| Sorry, you're not allowed to talk. | |
| No, I'm just kidding. Go on. We're talking about you. | |
| It doesn't help if you... | |
| I've been thinking a lot about... | |
| We had gone down together to Rachel's parents, and I got to see her interact with her parents for a weekend, and it was quite helpful for... | |
| Her for me to be that witness to her childhood. | |
| And I've been thinking a lot recently about how much that would mean to me. | |
| Because I just kind of feel like unsure. | |
| Like I need somebody to share this with. | |
| I'm so sorry for not remembering this, Dad. | |
| You don't have siblings, right? | |
| No, I don't. Right. | |
| That's why your mom doesn't want to meet Rachel, right? | |
| Well, she's very anxious about it. | |
| Well, yeah, which means that she doesn't want to do it, right? | |
| Yes, that's right. But that was a great defense there. | |
| One last one for the call. | |
| Well done. You're a fucking ninja, I'm telling you. | |
| You're like catch cannonballs between your teeth. | |
| It's amazing. No, she doesn't want to meet Rachel. | |
| Yeah, she doesn't want to witness, right? | |
| Because the homeschooling with no siblings, there's no witness, right? | |
| There isn't. And what you said to me that you actually had some of what I thought a little more emotional content was when you said there was no witness to the abuse with my teacher, right? | |
| Right, there wasn't. | |
| And there was no abuse, sorry, there was no witness to the abuse that your mom, right? | |
| No, not at all. | |
| I mean, when Christina, when my wife's relationship with her parents began to unravel, it was when I came over. | |
| Because from the outside, you see, right? | |
| And you say, well, I didn't quite understand how that happened. | |
| Or what was up with that? | |
| That seemed like... Or your mom got really tense about this. | |
| Why was that, right? Because when you're in it, you don't see it, right? | |
| It's like a noise that plays for 20 fucking years. | |
| You don't hear anything after a while, right? | |
| Certainly, yeah. And so your mom not... | |
| Wanting to have Rachel around, I'm sure it has to do with this outside eye thing. | |
| Yeah, no, and that has crossed my mind. | |
| Her power over you will diminish, right, if you have a sympathetic witness, right? | |
| I hope so. Yeah, I mean, that, yeah. | |
| Because it is odd, I think, if you're living with someone, and I know you guys have a close and great relationship, and this is in no way meant to diminish that, but it is odd to go into the mom cave, make the decisions, and then it only comes out when you're angry a month later, right? | |
| I don't... Yeah, I don't... | |
| I didn't see it as odd. | |
| Do you see it now as a bit secretive? | |
| I see where... | |
| It would have been helpful to share that. | |
| I guess I don't have any... | |
| I know you would. | |
| Yeah. So I have an exam, yeah. | |
| Rachel's much more open about... | |
| Well, but you're trying to approach it from an argument from a fact, right? | |
| Which is that it would have been helpful to talk about it? | |
| Yeah. Yeah. But that's not the issue, right? | |
| No, it's not the issue. | |
| What's the issue? That I didn't, or I don't want to... | |
| No, the issue is that it would have been honest to talk about it. | |
| It would have been honest to talk about my... | |
| Well, if you leave Rachel with the impression that, you know, my mom's being a diva, I'm not going to give her a present. | |
| And then your mom gets mad at you, you feel guilty or you feel like you want to pacify her, and then you decide to go out and buy a present, right? | |
| Yes. And did you go out? | |
| You didn't order it online, you went out to buy a present? | |
| I sent her flowers. | |
| You sent her flowers online, is that right? | |
| Yep. Big honking mess of flowers, right? | |
| And how long between your mom getting mad at you and you sending the flowers was it? | |
| Within a week. | |
| Okay, so for a week you were kind of stewing on this decision about what to do with your mom's anger and your feelings about it and this and that, right? | |
| Yes. Because I had met with her in New York City for Mother's Day. | |
| So all the birthdays, my birthday, her birthday, Mother's Day, all happened within a couple weeks of each other. | |
| Right. I thought that, you know, traveling there, you know, spending the time and money a whole weekend with her for Mother's Day, and my understanding from her was that was sort of a, you know, a nice bulk sort of gift for everything. | |
| The gift of me, absolutely. | |
| For Mother's Day and for birthdays, for both of our birthdays. | |
| Right. And I think you mentioned this when you and I talked for the first time when you sent me the article about the guy working with his hands. | |
| You had mentioned that you'd gone to New York to meet with your mom. | |
| Yes. And I knew that there was more to it, but obviously you didn't want to talk about it at that point. | |
| But... Sorry, you broke up there. | |
| Sure. No problem. | |
| So, you spent a week not talking about your thoughts and feelings about this issue with Rachel, right? | |
| Yeah, no. I don't think I did, no. | |
| You don't think you did spend a week? | |
| No, I'm sorry. I didn't talk with her about it. | |
| I was just... | |
| I had at least one phone conversation with her where she was very, sorry, with my mom, where she was very disapproving and hurt that I had not sent her anything for her birthday, a card or a gift or anything. | |
| And that pissed me off. | |
| And I told Rachel and And, yeah, then I just, I sat on it for, I'd say about a week, and then I just paid up. | |
| And then you didn't tell who you'd sent the flowers until sometime after you'd sent them. | |
| Was that another week or two? | |
| Is that right? It was definitely after I had sent them. | |
| I'm not sure. I'm not sure how long. | |
| It was a while. I guess it was a while after. | |
| Like how long? That was at least two or three weeks later. | |
| Two to three weeks? | |
| Right. Right. | |
| And you see, though, that this is the same thing that was going on when you were seven or eight and not learning, right? | |
| Which is that your mother feels that you're doing something that is deficient, and it's all your fault. | |
| Yes. Right? | |
| You're not learning, and it sure as hell isn't because I'm not a good teacher, right? | |
| Right. And you didn't send me flowers, and it sure as hell isn't because I'm not a good mother, right? | |
| Yes. And she isolates you from Rachel. | |
| Even when you're living with Rachel. | |
| Right? Because you're on this planet, you're on like the mere space station, sort of nodding and smiling at Rachel while thinking about your mom and not talking about it, right? | |
| Oh, yes. | |
| Yes. It's called the Fuglu. | |
| It's like an igloo, but colder. | |
| That's sad. Right, and I would just, you know, you've got to fight that. | |
| You don't have to do anything, but it would be great if you would fight that isolation thing, that your mom isolates you from the people around you. | |
| Because the opposite of abuse is interaction, is intimacy, right? | |
| Right. The abusers, and again, I'm using strong terms, and I don't know enough about your mom, but let's just use it for now. | |
| Abusers will always want to isolate you. | |
| Right. No, I can totally see where if I had talked with Rachel in that week, I might not be talking about it now. | |
| Right. And it doesn't matter whether you would have sent the flowers or not. | |
| It doesn't matter. The important thing is that it's so important for you, Ned, not to go back to this seven-year-old that's just you and your mom and there's no witnesses and there's no one who can help. | |
| Yeah. No, that's a very good point. | |
| Because the other thing, too, is that if you keep secrets from someone in your life, then Rachel is going to feel that she doesn't know if you're keeping a secret now, right? | |
| Right. Yes. | |
| Yes. It's still like... | |
| I know it was a secret, and I know it was dishonest, and it still feels like that's just what you do when it comes to your mom. | |
| Right. That's what your mom wants you to do. | |
| Right. And it's time to stop obeying your mom, right? | |
| And to deal with the fear, right? | |
| To not avoid the fear through compliance. | |
| Because this has been going on in your gene pool for a thousand years it could have been, right? | |
| And someone's going to stop it. | |
| And it's going to be you or it's going to be your kids. | |
| Now, if you stop it, you have a great relationship with Rachel or whoever, right? | |
| And you have a great relationship with your kids. | |
| If your kids end up having to stop it, they'll defoo your ass, right? | |
| And I don't want that. | |
| I hate the defu. I hate the defu. | |
| Yeah. And I know, I really do know and sympathize because I had years with my mom where it was just me and her. | |
| I didn't even have a dad for her to fight with. | |
| So I know, I really do understand that The food glue, right? | |
| Where you're put in this little frozen thing and you can't talk to anyone, right? | |
| I really do understand that. | |
| But you do have to, I mean, you really do have to, if you're going to be in this relationship, this close relationship with Rachel, which I respect and, you know, this is great, you've got to reach out from that isolated place with your mom, from that history, from that homeschooling place, right? Yeah. | |
| Yeah. And you will find strength in your communication with her. | |
| You cannot overcome the fear on your own. | |
| You cannot overcome in solitude problems that are created through solitude. | |
| Yeah, I mean, that's absolutely what I've realized. | |
| I mean, I've tried many times to... | |
| I guess start the DFU process and just have fallen apart. | |
| Yeah, you can't do it alone. | |
| I didn't do it alone. I had a therapist. | |
| Christina didn't do it alone. | |
| You can't do it alone. | |
| You just can't. And there's... | |
| It's like saying, you know, can you lift up a car on your own? | |
| It's like, no, unless you're on PCP, which, you know, I don't recommend for a DFU situation. | |
| But... Yeah, you need to forge those bonds. | |
| The bonds with your mom are just guilt and obligation and history and crap. | |
| But the bonds that you're building with Rachel are warm and vibrant and glowing and future-based and affectionate and honest. | |
| And you just got to cast off the dead ropes and you go with the new life, right? | |
| Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. | |
| Yeah, that's... It's perfect. | |
| I mean, it's... I hate... | |
| I hate having, you know, having this effect or interrupt our, you know, the great stuff that we... | |
| or our great relationship. | |
| And the great thing now is that after this hour and 20 minutes, Ned, you won't feel any desire for feedback from me for a long time, right? | |
| So that's going to be totally better. | |
| You're not going to miss that at all, right? | |
| Like, I can't believe I wanted feedback from this asshole. | |
| Now I've got to do all this shit. | |
| I mean, that's no good. | |
| Let's go back to talking about 33 cents a day, right? | |
| You and Rachel are going to be passing me back and forth. | |
| Right. Okay, well listen, you go talk to your girlfriend. | |
| That's much more important. And unless there's anything else you wanted to add now, that certainly I think is enough to mull on. | |
| No, thank you. Yes. | |
| All right. I'll send you this recording and have a listen if you can. | |
| Thanks, Steph. All right, man. | |
| And good night to Rachel as well. | |
| I really appreciate you jumping in there. | |
| Oh, thank you. Good night, Steph. |
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