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July 6, 2020 - I Don't Speak German
01:03:17
58: Transphobia and 'The Right Stuff'

Daniel and Jack skip back a bit to re-examine the raging transphobia on display from the 'Right Stuff' crew, as evidenced with clips in IDSG 52.  Also, some 'LUL News' and general 'TRS News'. Content Warning.  Notes/Links: IDSG Episode 52 and 53 Jack's article Schoep's tweets:

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Hello and welcome to I Don't Speak German, the anti-fascist podcast in which I, Jack Graham, he, him, and my friend Daniel Harper, he, him, have conversations about the far-right's conversations.
Every episode comes with a big content warning.
And welcome to I Don't Speak German, episode 58.
Got the number down pat this week.
And sorry about our little absence last week, because we were doing so well, an episode a week there for a while.
But we're back now, we're back now.
We're back, we're back.
Yeah, sometimes you just need a little break.
It happens.
Yeah, that's right.
Slave drivers expecting us to put out a bloody episode every week, honestly.
But yeah, so we just took a break.
We went on strike.
Yeah, we went on strike.
We need to own the means of our own production, which we do.
Which we do, yes.
So theoretically, everything's already perfect.
It's a worker's utopia.
Yeah.
No, I was going to put out an episode of my own.
I was going to put out a little bonus thing, and then I just didn't have the time to do it during the week because we missed our normal recording session.
So, my bad.
Sorry about that.
Yeah, it's really... I mean, I should get all the credit, really, because it's really me sort of forcing Daniel to turn up week after week that gets any of this done, to be honest.
Yeah, no, clearly, clearly.
Jack is the only reason this podcast happens, ever.
Absolutely, yeah.
So that having been established, that's something I've been wanting to get clear for a while actually, so that's good.
That having been established that I'm best, let's move on to less important issues.
So this is, as we said last time, this is kind of episode 52, part 3.
Basically, yeah.
Yeah, because episode 52 was the episode where Daniel put together a clips package from the Right Stuff guys, the podcast, to illustrate in their own words and their own voices what a bunch of shits they are, and I think did so triumphantly, successfully.
And then the episode after that, episode 53, which statistically none of you have listened to.
You ungrateful bastards.
That was us talking about episode 52.
And now we're going to do that again.
Well, no, not really.
It's a bit more interesting than that, honestly.
We're going to be... Well, go on, Daniel.
You tell them what we're going to be.
Yeah, well I thought 53 was really, uh, pretty good.
I think that, I don't know why, I don't, I mean, you know, the numbers are fine.
It's not, I mean, you know, we try, I try not to look too closely at the numbers, just to like, which ones get listened to and which ones don't.
But I feel like maybe, uh, you know, releasing it right afterwards, people were kind of like, yeah, I'm kind of done talking about that subject.
And so, you know, I think that's, um, I would recommend to people who, if you didn't listen to 53, I think it's definitely worth listening to.
I think there's some interesting stuff there.
Um, but, uh, in particular we kind of talked about sort of the stuff that was brought up by 52 and about the way that the, uh, the boys at the Daily Show-a treat, um, genocide and in the way that they treat trans people as, uh, um, the first victims of genocide, although they don't call it that.
And then we kind of spent 90 minutes talking about it and we really didn't talk much about sort of the the issues around the way that they're sort of weaponizing transphobia and I feel like that's definitely we've already done one episode about sort of like sex and gender and Nazis and I think that episode is very good I'm happy with that one but it is worth kind of like covering this topic again because it is like enormously important and I think it really we just didn't really kind of get into the nitty-gritty of that in the Yeah, we didn't do our pronouns.
He, him.
I'm Daniel, obviously.
I guess it's in the intro now?
Is that what we're doing?
Yeah, I was just gonna say, I've put it in the intro now, Daniel.
Oh, okay, okay.
I did listen to the last one.
I just, you know, we just want to make sure it's done, but we are a couple of cis white guys, and so we don't want to speak for trans people, but I will punch Nazis.
On the behalf of trans people, and if I make any fuck-ups, just let me know.
I'm happy to learn.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm he him as well, by the way, just in case the version of the intro that I put on isn't the one with the pronouns on, because I mean well, listeners, but you know, I'm kind of crap.
I mean, JK Rowling's not a Nazi, but with her on a sort of ongoing Twitter rampage of self-clarification, which is as awful as you would imagine, this is kind of in the air at the moment, isn't it?
And this is something that's a very important topic.
Transphobia and the persecution of trans people and the stigma against trans people.
And yeah, the Nazis, kind of, probably not all that surprisingly.
They're a bunch of filthy, disgusting, evil transphobes, aren't they?
Right.
And they use it to weaponize against other groups.
And we'll kind of talk about that a little bit.
And all this is in episode 52, but I think I want to kind of draw it out and kind of discuss it in a little bit more detail.
We want to emphasize it a bit.
But before we get there, we have some news.
We have some news.
We have Morton news.
Light upon light news.
So I was really trying to be nice in the episode about Matt Heimbach, anti-racist, question mark.
Bending over backwards to be fair.
Very fair to Jesse Morton and to that organization.
And they've been kind of going a little bit more mask off lately.
And I thought I would just read a couple of tweets and I will provide screenshots of this and we will stick those in the show notes or on the website somewhere.
But this is a tweet Jesse Morton posted on June 22nd.
This is in response to a tweet from the anti-fascism and far-right account.
And they were talking in response to the American Department of Justice tweeting out that the Nazi satanic group Order of Nine Angles aka O9A is a neo-Nazi anarchist white supremacist group.
They included the word anarchist in the description as they were challenging the group and they were sort of like putting it on like a terror watch list or whatever.
And this is really dangerous because it conflates neo-Nazi terrorists with innocent anarchists.
Yeah.
And the anti-fascism and far-right account correctly kind of called that out and was like, no, this is very dangerous and we need to make a lot of noise about this.
Well, Jesse Morton has his own opinion here, and you can imagine.
His tweet said, or maybe simply took 09A at their word, and he links to the Order of Nine Angles website, in which it's a reprint of an article that they did in 1991 discussing how they kind of consider themselves anarchists, although in other places they've said we've moved beyond anarchism.
And their version of anarchism includes a sort of like overtly white supremacist, satanic sort of thing.
I think it's really unfair to call them anarchists despite what they call themselves.
But even if we kind of grant them that, that the description, that they kind of have described themselves that way in the past, I think the rest of this tweet is completely indefensible, even if you sort of grant that first thing of bullshit that we shouldn't grant.
Yeah, you really should read Rosa Luxemburg.
to argue that hashtag anti-fascists themselves have quote-unquote nothing whatsoever to do with anarchist ideas or groups while diverse most are in support of totalitarianism hashtag read rosa luxembourg yeah you really should read rosa luxembourg i agree reading reading rosa luxembourg is an excellent thing to do and um i don't know that i mean i don't want to get into the details of like rosa luxembourg's opinion of anarchism
i mean it's it's kind of this kind of like very kind of complicated fight amongst you know like what the general strike was supposed to be in you know like 1906 germany uh from what i understand and um i'm just gonna say uh get her fucking name in your mouth jesse that's that's kind of that's kind of all i have to say to that yeah absolutely yeah yeah she was murdered by far-right terrorists so right like Like, I don't think that she would be sitting around palling around with people like Matt Heimbach and Jeff Shoup.
Let's put it that way.
No.
I think she would have fucking known better.
Absolutely.
We can just kind of leave it at that.
I don't feel like I have any... There's nothing else that I have to say.
Whatever her criticisms of anarchists, she wouldn't have gone in for that kind of, oh, the left and right are the same and totalitarianism, anti-totalitarianism bullshit narrative.
She wouldn't have seen through that crap.
Right.
It turns out that anarchists, by trying to silence genocidal racists, are acting in a totalitarian way and not overt national socialists trying to push a coded form of white supremacy.
All right.
I do find it interesting that we haven't seen another one of those Take a Walk on the Right Side podcasts.
Like, there hasn't been a new one.
It had been a couple weeks since they had released one when we did our episode, but they haven't released the new one, which was supposedly about George Lincoln Rockwell's white power.
I hope this means they just decided to stop doing that.
It would be nice.
That would be good, yeah.
I actually just wrote and published a thing about how socialism and fascism are not the same thing.
Anarchism and socialism don't map perfectly onto each other, but you know, for the purposes of this discussion, I just wrote about this, because it's stupid.
It's certainly very different from fascism in every conceivable way.
Yeah, kind of the complete fucking opposite, anyway.
Exactly, yeah.
Yeah, we should definitely link to that in the show notes.
It's excellent.
I heartily agree with everything in that essay.
Also worth noting, our good friend Jeff Shoup.
Not our good friend, a led-upon-light former white nationalist.
Was that irony?
Thanks for clarifying.
That was irony.
I just wanted to be clear about that, you know.
I wouldn't want our tanky detractors to decide that moment to treat us with seriousness instead of irony there.
They say that, you know, fascism and socialism are different, and then they say Jeff Shoup is their friend!
They're contradictory!
Clearly, clearly, that's exactly, you know, no one ever says anything in a hyperbolic or ironic way.
But Mr. Jeff Shoup here, I feel like I should read one of his tweets, and this one is from July 4th, from just after midnight.
If you were a former, hashtag, these people use hashtags.
It's ridiculous, but I'm gonna read the hashtag just so you can understand just how obnoxious these fucking tweets are.
Yeah, leave the hashtag.
If you were a former hashtag far-right hashtag extremist and and ampersand and you are ripping into other farmers because they do not support your anti-capitalist or hashtag Marxist views comma or they are hashtag conservative period you are still an extremist exclamation point.
I witnessed this at length once again today on Twitter and it's not right.
Second tweet, this was a thread of two.
Remember where you, capital U, came from, exclamation point.
Show some hashtag empathy, exclamation point.
Don't talk about hashtag compassion when you, capital letter U, have none, exclamation point.
Don't play like you understand the work we do when you, capital U, are literally driving people who need our help off the fence and back into the movement.
Show kindness and love, NOT, capital letters, division slash hate, exclamation point.
It's so moving, I'm in tears here.
So, yeah, basically it's like, well, if you're on the left, if you're treating conservatives as bad, And you are left of center, then you are just as bad as the Nazis, and you are a new extremist, you see, because you're embracing leftist politics.
You are just as bad as the Nazi you once were.
And I, who hate anti-fascists and still work with my former Nazi pals, and I've drugged my feet on this fucking lawsuit that I've been subject to for the last two years, And I'm paying money in sanctions because I refuse to cooperate with his lawsuit.
I am clearly your moral superior because you, my friend, are a Marxist who calls out systemic as well as overt white supremacy.
That's really the point he's making.
So, Jeff Shepherd, welcome to your own politics.
You are not welcome to your own politics without criticism.
And that's where I landed.
That's right, yeah.
At a time when anarchists, and indeed Marxists and socialists generally, are coming in for an awful lot of slander, I think it's important to point out that it's not the same.
And certainly I'm not going to be told that I'm essentially the same as a Nazi by somebody who was a Nazi five minutes ago.
Fuck you!
He spent 25 years as the head of the National Socialist Movement, got out, and now wants We'll give moral lessons to the rest of us about what is and is not the right way to live your life.
Congratulations.
Yeah.
Anyway.
No.
So I think, you know, I really try to be fair.
I'm really happy to kind of have a back and forth and, you know, if I'm wrong, I'm happy to learn.
I find the complete brick wall to which the light-upon-light organization kind of puts anyone who criticizes them and the way that they treat Antifascists, I think that's morally reprehensible and I don't think they have any desire to actually move forward and work For people I think they're I think they are far-right dickheads who just want to work within the system and and you know, they just they see themselves as sort of like You know, far right but not Nazis.
They work within the political system.
And I would love to learn otherwise, but until I learn otherwise, yeah, go fuck yourself.
It's about the size of it, yeah.
OK, so all those valuable points having been made... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I wanted to be clear.
I wanted to really give a little bit of space for our critics and for people who don't agree with our point of view and really let them kind of have their say here by reading their tweets.
And I feel like we've responded all that we need to.
I don't think that there's any more need to really, you know, the ball's in their court if they want to respond to this.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm a little surprised at us, really, the totalitarian fascist left, you know, platforming them.
Oh yeah, no, clearly, clearly.
You'd think that we'd be doing effectively, you know, the same thing, the equivalent of putting them in a gulag and then putting them up against the wall and shooting them by refusing to just hand our podcast over to them, really.
Anyway, on to the main body of the show.
Well, a little bit more news, because we are talking about our good friend, fellow totalitarian fascist, I guess, Mike Pinovich, Mike Enoch, today.
And we had some some actual TRS nudes one of the problems that I kind of run into with the TRS news segment Which is news that was not TRS nudes.
No, no, no one wants those no one sounded like TRS news Sorry, that was a that was a bit of a cough on my part there.
But uh One of the problems with the TRS news segment is that I said they don't really do anything They just kind of sit around and bullshit in front of their microphones, which you know, that's fine.
Yeah middle-aged guys talking on microphones That's describes my life as well I also don't get into a serious legal trouble the way Cantwell does that provides an ongoing saga of hilarity.
But it turns out that Mike Enoch is disobeying a subpoena from the Science v Kessler lawsuit, the same lawsuit.
Inuk was previously a party to this lawsuit, and he sort of talked his way out of it.
And he thinks because he talked his way out of being a defendant in the lawsuit, it means he doesn't have to respond to subpoenas.
And as any competent lawyer will tell you, you still have to respond to subpoenas when you have information.
And this is a 390-something page document.
I will link to it in the show notes.
And it's just filled with great details about the glorious things that Mikey and Ike has done.
He has apparently hired a lawyer who is apparently a movement lawyer, somebody who's a true believer in this kind of white nationalism bullshit.
There's one bit where he was served, and I think this is the bit that's hilarious.
Let me find it here.
These guys' lawyers, they always seem to be guys with big curly mustaches and string ties and waistcoats with fob watches and have names like Dixie Von Cuddlepuss and stuff like that.
It's really weird.
So, among other things, this is from the document.
While he was defendant in the Charlottesville action, the plaintiff served requests for production on Pinovich.
Pinovich vigorously fought these discovery efforts, filing numerous motions with the Western District of Virginia to slow discovery and issuing numerous objections.
The efforts were successful.
He never produced any documents in the Charlottesville action and was never deposed.
Yadda yadda yadda.
So they're still seeking documents.
They're still seeking the stuff from Pinovich, from Mike Enoch, and he's sort of like avoiding it.
And they have like this kind of specific list of documents that they're looking for, which are communications with people who are still subject to the lawsuit.
There's no reason that Enoch is not subject to have to give these up.
I mean, there's their like clear legal precedent forces him to do this.
This is just Civil lawsuits suck for everybody involved.
This is why you never want to be subject to one, and this is why you should try not to plan an event which you're going to commit violence against marginalized people, whether you're going to be civilly liable or not.
Well, you shouldn't organize an invasion of somebody's town by an army of white nationalists and Nazis.
Yeah, no, this is one reason.
At least one lower tier reason.
It's on the more pragmatic end of the reasons why you shouldn't do that, but it's certainly a valid reason.
But it's certainly a valid reason, yeah.
So this is quite amusing.
Pinovich dodged service of the document subpoena for over a week.
The process server had to return to his apartment at least eight times over four days, including waiting over six hours for Pinovich to appear.
The process server observed someone in Pinovich's apartment, quote, peering at the process server through Pinovich's balcony window.
And observed sounds coming from the department despite not answering the door.
The document subpoena was finally served June 1st, 2020.
A separate subpoena to give deposition testimony remotely was served at the same time.
The deposition subpoena scheduled the deposition for Yada Yada and was set as a remote deposition of a video conference.
To ensure he received the subpoenas, plaintiffs sent Pinovich additional copies of the subpoena by express mail to Pinovich's post office box and by email.
So, two things here.
One is that Enoch claims it's, uh, because of COVID he can't, like, kind of show up to the thing.
Like, it's a burden for him to actually come to Virginia.
And I said, no, we'll do the deposition through, like, video conference.
We'll do it over Skype or Zoom or whatever.
So that's bullshit.
He said, well, we can't reach him.
Well, they did finally find him.
But I find the detail of, he's literally hiding in his apartment, in his shitty little apartment, from the process server.
Like, as if the process server doesn't realize he's in there.
Like, the process server's job is to, like, wait until they can serve you.
Like, you're just increasing their billable hours at this point.
Like, you're not going to actually dodge the process server.
This is, you know, this is the level of childishness that you would kind of expect from these people.
Like, England's been fighting this shit for years, but apparently England is, you know, a little bit wilier or just kind of more willing to spend, you know, three years in the dark in his basement or, you know, in some, you know, somewhere in Southeast Asia or Ukraine or wherever he's heading out.
But, you know, when they know where you live, like, you really can't avoid the processor.
It's just a thing.
I find it really amusing that at the same time that this bit is happening, he's sitting and whining about Holocaust denial on his podcast and refuses to do anything to actually talk about these issues.
He never talks about some of these personal issues because he doesn't want to create drama for himself.
And then when the legal documents come out, it just makes it all the more hilarious.
Because on such and such a day when you were talking about gas chambers or whatever, you were also hiding inside your apartment and avoiding peering out the window.
I just kind of imagine that his girlfriend is just kind of going out and getting groceries instead of him and all that sort of thing.
Yeah, it's pretty remarkable.
So, yeah, that's kind of where we are.
Also, they've been having paywall processing issues.
We've been kind of talking about that recently.
Yes.
If you go to their website and check out, if you want to sign up for their paywall, they no longer can process credit cards at all.
They've gone through several different processes of this.
They've gone through a couple of different credit card processors and now they can't do it at all.
You can pay by Bitcoin or you can send them a money order.
Those are the two options.
And so they are now Put down to literally processing all of the money orders by hand and manually inputting people's usernames and passwords for their paywall.
And if Cantwell is any indication, this is going to dramatically decrease their monthly income, and I can't think of nicer people for it.
Yes, indeed.
Yes, in this economy, yeah.
Yeah, I can only imagine what percentage of their fans, who are their hardcore fans, who would pay them the $30, or $10 a month, $30 every three months or whatever, who are not going to bother going to the post office every three months or six months and pay them.
We can hope, we can hope.
So yeah, onwards to the main topic under discussion, and we're going to be, as we've already said, we're going to be talking a bit about
Transphobia and TRS and so on with with with reference using as a jumping off point The stuff you've already heard in episode 52 in particular maybe the the Adolf in the room clip Yes, so this episode The episode I believe is episode 442 of the Daily Showa if you want to go back and listen to it It is available on their Bitshoot channel very easy to find if you you know go to Bitshoot and
Search, you know, the Daily Show at 442 or the Adolf in the Room.
It should come right up.
I'm not linking to it for obvious reasons, but I did play a little bit of that episode on episode 52, and we talked a little bit about it in episode 53.
And the point of that episode, and this is...
This is pretty key, right?
Like this is kind of like, so the reason that I think this is important, the reason I wanted to cover it is because it is sort of like the way that they're using entryism into kind of like a more mainstream conservative politic by exploiting pre-existing bigotries, right?
And so the point, the kind of the structure of that episode is they start off and they have like a Reddit thread Which they don't link, or I would have loved to have read the full context of the Reddit thread, you know?
But they never link to their fucking sources, and they're almost impossible to find later down the line.
But they link to this, or they read from this Reddit thread, which is a list of people's transition surgeries that did not go well, and sort of like medical disasters that happened.
And reading between the lines, it's very easy to see that A, sometimes medical transition, as any medical procedure, does not go well, and oftentimes people who are not wealthy, who are navigating, particularly the U.S.
healthcare system, but this is worldwide, particularly when you're talking about trans healthcare,
Have to deal with whatever medical care they can get and often this is of not the greatest quality For a variety of reasons and so you do have a large number of you know botched transition surgeries It's just something that happens And they start reading these horror stories and then sort of like use this as a justification for well this shouldn't exist when you have this many transition surgeries when you have like these people who are quote-unquote mentally unwell and
When you have these people who are fucking nuts, as Enoch describes them.
You know, at a certain point in the episode he says, like, I don't agree, I don't think that there's a... that mental health is really something that we have, like, this kind of complicated, you know, like, there's no such thing as sort of, like, we read too much into, like, mental health and we spend too much time trying to describe it.
In his mind, you're just fucking nuts, and you need to be along in an institution, and you need to be kept away from other people, and you need to be put under extreme restraint to avoid hurting other people.
On many occasions during this episode, they start to get closer and closer to just kind of saying like, well, it's okay if you die.
It's just fine.
It's really fine.
I was going to say, people with his politics don't have a particularly good record when it comes to people who've been put into institutions.
But in particular trans people, it's like, well, you know, if you want to do this, then maybe you should just not be here anymore.
You should just, you should just shoot yourself.
You should just, you know, no great loss to society.
And I think before we really... Which kind of shows the hypocrisy of detailing, you know, transition surgeries that go wrong.
Well, I mean, it's like, well, you've done this thing, you've done this, you know, you've got, I mean, in some of these, yeah, I don't want to wallow in the details of it, you know, because ultimately these are, you know, I mean, you know, where parts of the body get nicked or, you know, kind of tubes go the wrong way.
I mean, I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to belittle this or anything like that.
I'm just trying to keep the conversation light here.
But, you know, and, you know, one of the stories is like, you know, I have a neo vagina and I've got like, Shit coming out of my neovagina uncontrollably because my colon got ruptured during this process and this is There's no empathy for the person suffering this in this episode, right?
There's no empathy for that of being like I can only imagine having that it's this is disgusting Well, this is what you deserve because you did this thing to yourself and it's because you're fucking nuts and ultimately It's because there's this Jewish conspiracy that's kind of creating this in our society, and ultimately what you needed was you needed an adult, an Adolf, a Hitler to come in and make sure that this didn't happen in your society anymore.
And this is what happened in 1930s Germany.
Was, um, you know, society said, uh, you know, you started to see, like, kind of the beginnings of transition surgery, the beginnings of, like, actual acceptance of LGBT people, um, in Weimar, Germany.
And, uh, in particular in this, in the name of this person, this researcher, this sexologist named Magnus Hirschfeld, And when that got too much for, you know, mainstream German society, you know, the brown shirts, they knew what to do, and that was to destroy that research.
I mean, the background here, again, the historical background is, Magnus Hirschfeld was a sexologist, a sex researcher in Weimar, Germany, who did some of the initial research, some of the initial transition surgeries, who helped a whole lot of people in the early days of what we would consider modern medicine.
And, you know, I'm sure there were some botched surgeries, I'm sure there was some stuff that got wrong because all medicine at that time was iffy, you know, let's just call it what it was.
But helped a whole lot of people and like built a whole body of knowledge.
And the Nazi book burnings that are completely decontextualized in terms of our modern history and modern kind of understanding of what was done in the book burnings in Nazi Germany, those book burnings, that actual incident that we really think of that's kind of the big book burning incident, was the burning of Magnus Hirschfeld's research and the destruction of all that good that was being done for trans people.
And so in a certain sense, trans people were the initial victims of the Holocaust.
The one, you know, the one kind of bright lining on that cloud was that because all those records were destroyed, the Nazis could not persecute the actual individuals because they destroyed the fucking records.
And so it does seem that most of them did escape the actual, you know, extermination program.
But this setback research, actual scientific research into helping trans people and helping LGBT people for decades, pretty obviously.
And the segment and that whole episode, the Adolf in the Room, that whole episode is saying, this was a good thing.
This is what we want.
This is what we want to happen in our society is look at all these, quote unquote, disgusting trans people.
Look at all these botched surgeries.
And this is not something we want in our society.
And this is something that there was this Jew, Magnus Hirschfeld, brought to us in the 30s in Germany.
And this guy Hitler came along and made sure it stopped.
And if you, dear listener, or your relatives who are not full-on Nazis as you are, listener, but if you're conservative, your right-wing uncle, your right-wing cousin, your right-wing brother, your wife, whatever, in some way uh not willing to kind of go full nazi with you if they have this mental image of hitler as this like ultimate evil you just tell them well look look at this thing that was happening then look at all this disgusting trans stuff
look at how awful these trans people are and look at these disgusting surgeries and look at this thing that's happening and you know hitler came in and he said um yeah no we're not going to do that anymore and maybe hitler wasn't all bad if he beat up on trans people in this way and that's the that's the logic that's exactly what they're trying to do that's why they made that full episode public because a they think it's hilarious they i mean it's just one of their like they are uh luxuriating in these uh in the details of these
They spend a ton of time on the most infantile discussion of shit and piss and blood and bile.
At one point, they start talking about, well, how do you make the transition penis or how do you do the thing?
And it's like, oh, no, you're just like a bologna, like a sausage.
It's got that little metal ring, you see?
And so there's one of those metal rings on the inside.
And so this is the level of infantile humor.
But for them, this is like this completely hilarious thing.
Their fans both loved and hated it because it's like this sort of intense gross-out humor.
And yet they find it like because it's so deeply uncomfortable for them, they find it hilarious.
It's one of their classic episodes, quote unquote.
But it comes with a purpose.
And the purpose is to justify Hitler's reign, to justify Hitler's violence against this kind of thing.
And to say, well, you know, Hitler couldn't be all bad because, hey, he beat up the trans people for us.
And so, yeah, maybe we want more of that and not less.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's attempting to drive a wedge into the consensus negative view of Hitler, isn't it, I suppose?
And it comes part and parcel with the Holocaust denial, with kind of the more straightforward Holocaust denial, right?
Because, like, basically these things come of two parts.
It's, you take away the worst part of Hitler's thing, you take away the Holocaust, or you sort of justify it as like, well, no worse than what was done to Dresden, no worse than the Holodomor, no worse than, like, the atrocities by the Allies, etc., etc.
you make that equivalence first of all or you deny the holocaust altogether which is kind of what they're what they're on now um and then you say but also there are these like good things that hitler did and like yeah wouldn't you rather be speaking german but not have all these trans people around you than to have to deal with this quote-unquote degeneracy in your society um that was brought about by all these jews that's that's the that's the thing yeah absolutely um you Using a bigotry that is still socially acceptable.
Right, exactly.
Driving a wedge through the existing bigotry and then pushing it further.
Do the same thing with like Muslim terror, like Islamic terrorism, excuse me, I don't want to misspeak there, but they do the same thing with like...
Islamic terrorism where they say well the Islamic terrorism is bad, but it's not because like Islam is a bad religion You know it's sort of like the Sam Harris kind of like they have like this set of bad ideas They have this set of like bad like programming in their heads that causes them to do it's like no It's because they're Muslim because they're this like genetic stock they just sort of like do this terrorism and so we need to they so they use the the horrible example of the Terrorist Act and That's a complicated sociopolitical thing.
I'm not trying to, you know, either justify it or not.
I don't want to deal with that.
I just want to say they use the example of sort of the terrorists and then say, well, all of them are like that.
And if we get rid of all of them, then we don't have to deal with that problem anymore, period.
And they use this kind of same strategy over and over again by sort of agreeing and amplifying with the sort of like the baseline bigotry that's in society.
And they say, well, no, but you don't have it right because actually the real thing that you're missing is like even more extreme thing, even more sort of like baseline thing.
And so they get to be the kind of they always want to be kind of the furthest right argument.
They always want to push the conversation further right.
They will never grant you a single inch on this.
They will never sort of agree with anything that kind of disagrees with their kind of basic premise of, you know, they will never agree with any leftist on any point whatsoever.
This is why it's kind of pointless to debate these people unless you're speaking to kind of a large audience and you want to try to persuade the audience.
I still think that's even kind of a difficult thing to do, but you will never get Mikey to ever agree with anything that does not push his propaganda because he's a fucking liar and propagandist first and foremost.
Done.
Yeah, yeah.
And as you say, the thing with using the example of terrorism is that they're using the widespread and still socially acceptable Islamophobia bigotry against Muslims.
To justify and soften their own version of reality, this racial view, isn't it?
And they're doing the same thing with... I mean, when I say transphobia is a socially acceptable form of bigotry, I don't mean to say that bigotry against people of colour has been completely extirpated or anything like that.
Obviously not.
But it's not something you can... I mean, everybody now claims to be an anti-racist, even Donald Trump claimed to be.
You'll never find anybody less racist than me.
You can't say it openly without making yourself beyond the pale in polite society.
That doesn't mean society isn't still structured along lines of white supremacy.
But, you know, it's not even like that with transphobia.
You can be openly transphobic and, you know, you might come up with against criticism, but you're not going to lose your job necessarily.
And I think, you know, I hate to harp on about this because it's, you know, it's kind of a comical, I mean, not comical in the sense of being trivial, but comical in the sense that she's so ridiculous.
But, you know, Rowling isn't going to be anathematised and she's not going to... I mean, they like to play at being, you know, Graham Linehan no doubt thinks he's been sent to the Gulag, you know.
But she's going to still be able to sell books and produce Hollywood movies and shit like this, despite the fact that she's been on just this tirade of transphobic shit on Twitter recently.
So yeah, it is still a socially acceptable bigotry and they're exploiting it.
And it's interesting to me that they're kind of doing a version of the same concern trolling that she's now doing and transphobes like her do.
And Graham Linhan, for instance, did the same thing.
I mean, again, I'm harping on Rowling.
It's not because I think she's incredibly important or anything.
Please, please.
People love it when we go after JK Rowling, I think.
I'm honestly not going after JK Rowling because I think she's particularly important.
I mean, she has got a huge platform, etc.
etc.
So it is dangerous when people with huge platforms and so much power... Because, you know, J.K.
Rowling is a member of the ruling class.
She is a billionaire capitalist movie producer.
She has fundamentally different interests to most of humanity.
And she has a great deal more power to, you know, to get things done, to control people, to employ people, to...
to get certain ideas propagated etc etc but you know I'm not necessarily particularly talking about her it's just she's a perfect example and she's recently been on this tirade on Twitter and she's been doing it via concern trolling about things like oh the side effects of hormone treatment you know
And that's just a less overtly disgusting, less overtly sadistic, less overtly Nazi version of what the TRS guys were doing, with their harping on about operations that went wrong.
Well, it plays on the same... I mean, you know, I think there is a difference in kind to a certain degree.
In the sense that the TRS boys are, you know, denying the basic humanity and the basic agency of trans people.
Yeah, I don't want to sound like I'm trivializing the difference, because I don't trivialize the difference.
And using them as sort of like, as sort of the acceptable kind of victims of a repressive state.
But I think what JK is doing and what other, you know, the kind of more mainstream transphobes, I mean, Jesse Singal and various other people kind of do the same thing.
It's sort of like this, well, you know, we've really got to think about kind of like the nature of these hormone surgeries and like are we really kind of rushing people into these surgeries too fast and like what are the complications?
We don't know what the long-term impacts of this are and we really just need to be asking a lot of questions about this and like maybe these trans kids, they are just kind of being convinced by society that they're, that you know, this is the trendy thing to do and they're not really kind of answering these questions.
Jesus Christ!
Honestly, and they're not kind of, you know, are we making it too easy for people to transition?
And look, I don't, you know, I'm not here to speak for, I mean, this is something that like, that I'm not going to speak for, I don't know.
I know a lot of trans people at this point, you know, because when you're not a vicious transphobe and you're online, trans people tend to actually kind of want to be your friend sometimes.
Funnily enough, they're not actually this incredibly hostile, fanatical, dogmatic lobby that refuses to tolerate any dissent.
If you don't hate them, they're fine.
I got somebody's pronouns wrong once and they pulled a gun on me.
That was the one.
It totally, you know, you get the pronouns wrong and you go, oh I'm sorry I did that, it's like, you know, it's fine.
You know, when you're doing it honestly, you know, it's usually like, perfectly, you know, trans people are people.
But I mean, the one universal thing that you find.
We're making it too easy to transition.
Just saying it, you know.
People spend years trying, even beyond the sort of financial costs of it.
You've got to find a doctor who will talk to you.
You've got to go through, you've got to jump through numerous hoops.
I mean, and this varies a bit from the UK and the US, and I'm not 100% up on the exact procedures that people have to go through, and I will not, and I will not speak for that for myself, because again, as a cis white dude, I'm, this is not my
Thing but like it takes years for people to like a process the internal issues that they have with coming to terms with the fact that they might be trans because people deny it for years because Despite how much they may feel like they are kind of stuck in the wrong body or with the fact that like they're not comfortable with their gender presentation The world is not actually very kind to people who want to present their gender differently No.
And so you get all this kind of internalized kind of problem that kind of runs into that.
But even once you kind of decide to start exploring it, like doctors set up, put up enormous roadblocks to this.
This is not a sort of a case where like a six-year-old walks into a doctor's office and says, hey, sometimes I feel like a girl.
And then, you know, they like pick up a scalpel and start slicing.
That's not, you know, that's like the, I mean, I would love to pretend that that's sort of like the straw man version of what these people believe.
But like very respectful people tend to believe something very close to that, you know.
Absolutely.
Or at least that you get pumped full of hormones or that it's going to damage your ability to reproduce down the line, et cetera, et cetera.
And they'll bring up like desistance factors.
They'll bring up kind of the percentage of people who desist from transition.
And like the biggest reason that people do desist, because some percentage of people start the transition, start social transition, start hormonal transition, and then decide it's not for them completely.
I mean, I have no problem with that one way or the other.
But the main reason that people say when they do desist is that they find social transition difficult because of ingrained transphobia in society.
And not because they don't actually feel like this is the best decision for them.
It's the wrong decision because society does not treat them with respect, right?
Yeah.
And then like a large percentage of those people then do go on to later transition at some point in their lives and so the idea that people are just sort of like willy-nilly picking their own gender and going into like Horrifying surgery that they're going to regret later like some percentage of people do let's not let's not pretend it never ever happens because you can find horrible example stories and But for the most part, this is just not the case.
And to focus on those handful of stories as opposed to the larger picture of trans people being horrifyingly repressed in our society and given every obstacle to becoming the people that they are, and to treat that as not the main story, it's complete fucking horseshit. and to treat that as not the main story, it's Backwards and forwards.
It is, and the slightest acquaintance with the reality here on planet Earth.
Again, like you, I'm not going to speak for trans people.
I'm not going to talk about it.
I'm not the person to do that.
I don't know enough.
But just the faintest acquaintance with reality here on Earth, you know, the idea that it's becoming too easy to transit.
It's just, I mean, we've got the proposed Gender Recognition Act reforms.
The Tory government here in Britain, they're talking about scrapping them.
At the moment, that's happening.
And at the same time, we have Rowling retweeting people who are doing this joke tweet like, you know, oh, the reason you... I don't even want to say it.
But, you know, going through this sort of joke where men treat trans women differently.
to uh to cis women and the joke is that you know you men treat trans women with more respect the obvious implication being that trans women are really men right i don't even like saying it but you know i have to say a lot of things i don't like to say on this podcast the tweet sort of lists the way you know men as a blob treat trans women and it's just like what fucking planet are you living on that
you think this is how trans people are treated in our society With this much respect, are you... Right, that you have to like... But they don't care to acquaint themselves with the reality of what people go through, do they?
Well, no, and there's no sense of kind of just, I mean, all you have to do is like talk to a few trans people and not like sort of the hand-picked examples that right-wing dipshits use as their kind of like exemplar of this, you know?
Because again, you can find a handful of people who, you know, and then they end up getting to be on like the right-wing circuit of like, I was, I thought I was trans and it turned out it ruined my life, etc, etc.
And to the degree that that's authentic, I feel for these people, obviously, but this is not the main story.
And all you have to do is look at There are reams of scientific data on this at this point where we have spent, you know, decades kind of like collating it and kind of finding different stories and particularly in the last few years, you know, like as it has become slightly more socially acceptable and as people are being able to transition younger because we are kind of finding this in younger people and people kind of prepubescent who do kind of run into this problem and who do or are able to kind of get on puberty blockers and are able to
Socially transition and then possibly medically transition down the line.
You do find that there is more acceptance and there is a better, that we do get better outcomes than we got like 40 years ago when the social disapproval was even higher.
The problem is that the, even the, you know, run-of-the-mill transphobes, even the J.K.
Rowling's, even the Graham Linehan's, even the people who are not overt Nazis, let me be clear about that, um what they want to do is move us backwards back towards that direction and to make it more difficult than it already is and then the overt nazis just want to put these people in an institution or to completely crush them socially so that they have no ability to do this whatsoever um up to and including the point of um assassinating doctors that would perform these procedures yeah absolutely
and i think that and i think that the the the real again the real key here and the real thing and the real reason that i wanted to kind of like do a kind of fuller episode and kind of get more into the details on this is just that it does affect let the thing that we always kind of run into is like why are these super far right people with relatively small audiences worth paying attention to And the answer is because they exist as the tip of the spear.
They exist as sort of the, well, I'm not as bad as that, right?
And so someone like Graham Linehan can say like, look, I don't have a problem with trans people who are kind of out there who kind of keep to themselves, who have their own problems.
I'm just kind of, I just kind of have my own kind of issues.
I'm not saying that like the doctors who perform this procedure should be executed the way those far-right people are.
I'm not doing, I'm not telling the horrifying jokes.
I'm not kind of doing that thing.
I'm just like kind of accepting kind of place in society.
I just want us to kind of put the brakes on.
And so you get to be seen as this sort of like reasonable center, this kind of reasonable moderate.
As opposed to a far-right transphobic dickhead, which is what Graham Linehan has proven himself to be over the course of years.
It is amazing to me.
I actually used to be a really big fan of The I.T.
Crowd, you know?
And, um, you know, a show that has its problems, but one that I really enjoyed.
And I, I, I will never watch it again.
It's just one, it's, it's just, you know, the fact that that man, he could have when he first started saying transphobic shit, He could have just gone, oh, this is really upsetting people.
And oh, look, I've got millions of dollars.
I can just do that.
But like he got enveloped in this sort of crowd that love bombed him.
And suddenly he becomes like the great male feminist hero protecting, quote unquote, women from trans people or whatever, you know?
And so, you know, that's it just becomes like it becomes the thing, you know, and.
Again, the Nazis will use people like that and will say, see, you can't even be a moderate.
You can't even ask questions about that before you become a Nazi in people's minds.
And so therefore, you should just come on and be a full Nazi.
You should just come on and go like Hitler.
Hitler did nothing wrong, clearly.
And, I mean, similar story about Graham Linehan, you know, with me it's Father Ted rather than the IT crowd.
I used to love Father Ted.
I'll never be able to watch that again.
I mean, not that, you know, obviously I'm the real victim here because of that.
Clearly.
No, the other thing, it kind of works the same way in reverse, because when these bigots present themselves as the reasonable centre, It allows them to then point to people who are activists for change, for radical change, which is what we need.
It allows them, kind of circles back to what we were talking about at the beginning, it allows them to point to people like that and say, well, I mean, look at these extremists, and to draw comparisons between people like that fighting for justice, fighting for radical change, which is what we need.
To draw comparisons between them and totalitarians and fascists.
And that, that's not just bullshit in itself.
It's not just the fragility of privileged people equating freedom of speech with consequence-free speech.
Like we were talking, you were talking previously, this is a byway, you were talking previously about the Nazi book burnings being now completely decontextualized in people's minds.
Dave Rubin recently published some stupid book and he called it Don't Burn This Book.
Like he thinks he's...
A martyr for free speech who's being persecuted by, you know, totalitarians that want to silence him.
He thinks it's him.
I mean, I know he's a gay man, but... Right, right, but that's not the point here.
That's not what he's saying.
I was giggling because a friend of the show, former guest, Ina Mohamed, did an episode Demolishing that book and she got Michael Brooks to come on and kind of guest and they they they ripped that book a new asshole So that's that's worth that's worth listening to just to kind of put that out there for people But that's a perfect like Dave Rubin calling his book.
Don't burn this book That is a perfect illustration of a the ridiculous self-pity and the ridiculous lack of historical knowledge of these people and the way we've decontextualized these historical realities that people now don't understand, you know and It goes from the other angle too, because these bigots, these transphobes, they present themselves as the reasonable centre.
And you can see the same pattern happening in all sorts of... like you mentioned, you know, Islamophobia earlier, same sort of thing happened.
They present themselves as the reasonable centre, we just have legitimate concerns, we just have questions, etc, etc.
And then they point to the people who are out there agitating for radical change, which, as I say, is what's necessary, and they blacken those people as fanatics, as dogmatists, you know, the trans lobby, etc, etc, all this filthy rhetoric.
And they actually, they draw comparisons between these people and the fascists who want to kill them.
Which is not just disgusting and obscene in itself, it also helps the fascists because it obscures what they really are.
Well, it neutralizes the people who are fighting against the fascists ultimately, by equating fascists.
Me, Dave Rubin, I exist at the Reasonable Center.
I have questions about how fast we're moving in our society in terms of acceptance of trans people.
And I think the radicals on both sides, the people who want to throw trans people into ovens, and the people who want children to get medical care that they need, are equally bad.
And therefore, by fighting both of these quote-unquote extremists, We're just going to make it harder for children to get the medical care they need, and give more space over to the fascists.
Because ultimately, these people never punch right.
They will never punch... No, no.
They will never go that far and go like, well no, no, I mean you...
They'll just kind of deny the genocidal transphobes actually exist, right?
They just kind of deny that that's like a thing.
Oh, no, that's just a handful of losers on the internet.
Nobody cares.
The real institutional power is in big trans because Caitlyn Jenner got to be on the cover of Vanity Fair and therefore trans people are everywhere.
I see them everywhere I go.
I just can't get trans people out of my head now because I occasionally see someone who presents their gender differently than I think would exist in 1950s television, and therefore I just don't know how to deal with my life anymore.
And so they will always punch left instead of right, which means that the discourse around this subject sits further and further right.
And this is why I make it my job to fight the extreme far-right people, so that people both to kind of diminish their ability to spread the propaganda, And to make it more open to give people the knowledge that they need to contextualize these things properly in terms of understanding kind of how this kind of discourse works so that we can then stop the Dave Rubins by understanding they exist on a spectrum with the actual overt genocidal racist people, you know, and transphobic people.
Absolutely, and it's not just that they're on a spectrum, it's that there's an interaction between the different parts.
They pull each other along.
Dave Rubin won't talk to Ben Shapiro, or won't talk to Mike Enoch, but he's buddies with Ben Shapiro, and Ben Shapiro won't talk to Mike Enoch, but Ben Shapiro used to work on, like, he'll spread like 90% of the talking points, but then because he's Jewish, Mike Enoch hates him and they attack him, and therefore it's like, Ben Shapiro isn't even far right anymore, because Mikey Enoch exists further to the right, you see.
And Dave Rubin is very chummy with someone like Ben Shapiro, and I guarantee you there's never been a trans person on Dave Rubin's show.
I'd have to go look and make sure, but I would guarantee you he would never talk to someone who is trans, or someone who is actively working in favor of trans people's rights.
Even a sort of moderate, center-left person who thought that trans people were human, almost assure you that wouldn't exist unless they were actively using the talking points of like well i'm maybe blair white who's like well i'm trans but like that doesn't mean i'm a woman it means that i'm a man who presents as a woman etc like you know that's kind of the right-wing douchebags who you know use their uh trans identity as a weapon against other trans people yeah yeah absolutely yeah um also
Also, I just want to put this out there, because this isn't the first example of this sort of thing.
Previously, one of the early, early TRS memes was the standard fuck party.
And I think this actually predated the podcast.
I think this was a thing that was even in their like kind of Facebook and their website days.
I'm not sure exactly how far back it goes, but it goes back at least back to like the earliest earliest days of the podcast.
And the Standard Fuck Party, it was a meme where there was a documentary which was about gay men.
And I believe San Francisco or in like kind of the West Village or in this kind of 80s, maybe early 90s gay male community.
During the horrifying ravages of the AIDS epidemic when that was really at its peak who were bug chasers and who Saw nihilism in there who saw their entire like everyone like them was being annihilated by this disease just wasted away by this epidemic and the only who saw no future for themselves and who sought a
Companionship and love and who sought a community and so there was this kind of group of people who said like Well, actually I'd kind of like to just get the disease and then just live the short number of years that I have With other people who are but in this sort of a form of community and so that's toxic in terms of a personal choice I mean I can't but I can't judge it really because I've never been in the situation of believing that
That everyone like me was just going to die of this horrifying disease that the government was never, had no desire to combat at all because of the bigotry around the society.
But what they do is use clips from this movie as a way of justifying because there's this party where it's like, and then we're going to have the sex swing over here.
We're going to have the thing over there.
And apparently the documentary is kind of a little bit of a like look at the freaky gay guys and they're kind of freaky gay guy sex party thing.
But they use it not as a way of like, oh, this is kind of a weird cultural artifact of this kind of particular moment.
And like, let's think about the humanity of this.
And they kind of look at it as, see, this is what all gay people are like secretly.
Right.
Yeah.
The cameras are rolling.
Right.
Yeah.
And so like gay people are also diseased and they spread disease among each other.
And HIV is a gay disease and we shouldn't put any energy into curing it.
And we should just let them all die out.
And so trans is sort of the existing, trans people are sort of the existing victims of the same kind of idea.
But this sort of idea of like taking an extreme behavior and kind of generalizing it or sort of like some percentage of these people will get some sort of disease and it will be kind of dangerous or will have some medical condition and it will be problematic.
They then use it to universalize against the entire group of people, right?
And then they say, well, these people don't deserve our respect because they're existing in this kind of degenerate lifestyle, et cetera, et cetera.
They also use it to talk about women, women getting abortions.
You know, my body, my choice.
No, no, it's not your choice.
We're going to force you not to kill your baby.
And we will use force to make that happen because our Uncle Adolf is going to tell us how to do that, you know.
And, you know, it is about disrespecting the agency and the choices of anyone who is not a far right wing, straight white male.
And therefore they are enemies of all of us.
Yeah.
Misogyny, transmisogyny, homophobia, even more than racism, exist at the core of these people's ideology.
And I think that's something that we really can't emphasize too much, particularly the misogyny bit.
I feel like we don't emphasize that enough on this show, but it's absolutely there.
It's just so built into the ideology that there's hardly ever a time to sort of bring it up because it's They never talk about it, right?
It's just sort of like the base assumption is that women are not really fully human, right?
Yeah, it's just so completely baked in it doesn't even need to be discussed between them, I suppose.
Right.
Yeah, and it's worth, you know, it might seem redundant, but it's worth emphasizing over and over again that when you're talking about people that are in this cul-de-sac, this is what they actually believe.
This is what is fundamental and integral to their worldview.
It's baked in.
You can't take it out.
You can't moderate it.
And this is its actual content.
Yeah, I mean, when I first kind of got into this, I kind of thought you'd find somewhere like that kind of Sam Harris type of like, well, I agree with sort of fascism.
I agree with like, you know, like, I don't like black people because they're, like, unkind to gays, for instance, or I don't like, you know, that sort of, like, logic, right?
Yeah.
But you never ever see that.
It's always sort of, it comes from this sort of, like, personal discomfort with, quote unquote, degeneracy, first and foremost.
I mean, some of the first, like, times I ever got trolled by Nazis on Twitter.
Was people going like, yeah, you just want to come.
You're just interested in orgasms.
You just want to, you know, have sex with women.
And I'm like, yeah, those things are great.
You know, really having sex with not just women, you know, for I wouldn't I wouldn't want to, you know, kind of limit myself to that.
But, you know, it is it is kind of like, you know, like, you know, there is this kind of sense of like, You're just a degenerate loser because, like, you just like to have orgasms.
And I'm like, yeah, orgasms, they're cool.
You should have more of them.
You would feel better.
I'm sorry to kind of bring that up again.
I think we did in the last episode.
Yeah, it's got those on the brain.
But it is, like, these people have such, like, this, like, kind of sexual repression and this such, like, kind of, they have this such, like, desire for, you know, control over kind of that aspect of their lives.
And it is, Worth noting just how often that comes up in this, um, in this kind of cultural milieu, this kind of idea of like, you know, well, certain kinds of sex and certain kinds of intimacy are forbidden because they're degenerate and disgusting and because it's not, you know, no, no, no Greek would ever behave this way.
Um, they know nothing about it.
Actually, they mostly don't use Greece as an example.
They're mostly fine with that.
But, you know, they do sometimes start to justify, like, well, and this kind of behavior was, you know, the Jews translated this, you know, centuries later, in the early 19th, the early 20th century.
These are, like, later translations.
So this was not considered to be normal by the initial translations.
And it's like, well, yeah, maybe they weren't translated properly to begin with because of, you know, horrifying homophobic situations.
I'm pretty sure people knew the Greeks were pretty gay, you know, a long time ago.
I don't think that's a secret.
No, no.
Yeah, fear and loathing.
Definitely.
Yeah, I feel like this one is a little bit loose, but, you know, we really wanted to just kind of give this a little bit more time, and this was kind of an easier episode to produce.
I've got some bigger stuff coming up down the pipe that requires a little bit more baseline research for it.
Do we want to tell the people listening what we're doing next time?
Yeah, we'll do another light one next time.
We'll do a movie.
I'm thinking maybe for the summer we might do some more movie episodes just to kind of get us through the doldrums of the hot months where it's kind of maybe people are just wanting something a little bit lighter.
The movie that I get requested the most is American History X, and I've been kind of putting it off because I do not think this is a very good movie.
In fact, I kind of loathe this movie.
The more I learn about Nazis, the more I loathe this movie.
There's some good stuff in it, but it's few and far between.
So I look forward to that.
People keep asking me to do it.
Oh, you should do American History X. It's bad.
It's real bad.
And we'll talk about exactly why next week.
We're going to talk about why it's bad next week, yeah.
And I'm somebody who made the journey from thinking it was great to being somebody who thinks it's bad.
I'm a bit like the character in the film.
I made a journey.
I made a journey.
You've got that swastika tattoo on your chest there?
Well, no, I've got a tattoo of Edward Norton with the swastika tattoo on my chest.
But I'm going to leave it there because I'm going to own my past.
Yeah, yeah, no, no.
Oh, yeah.
Well, we could tell all the American History X jokes next week.
Yeah, save them for next week.
Okay, that was episode 58, and I still remember the number.
Thanks a lot for listening, and we'll see you next time.
Cheers.
Bye.
That was I Don't Speak German.
Thanks for listening.
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