In this bumper episode, Daniel tells Jack all about the recent response to us by Matt Heimbach and Jesse Morton on their Walk on the Right Side podcast. Also, we do a news roundup, taking in Camilla Long, Lauren Southern, Andrew Neil, Ben Shapiro, Tim Pool and Hank Hill; Tucker Carlson and his writer Blake Neff, recently revealed as a racist forum poster; the arrest of Steven Baca; and the latest scary developments in Portland as ICE/DHS start black-bagging protestors, featuring the rise to instant fame of Tazerface. Also... the triumphant return of Cantwell News. Content Warnings Apply. Notes/Links: Cantwell's additional charges. https://www.fosters.com/news/20200714/jailed-white-nationalist-from-nh-faces-more-charges Blake Neff exposed: https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/media/tucker-carlson-writer-blake-neff/index.html Tazerface16 assulted. https://twitter.com/PDXzane/status/1285037835058180097?s=20 Tazerface aka "Chris David" describes the assault: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1284999020188807168?s=20 Chad Loder thread on ABQ militia shooting: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1272715820938850304?s=20 Steven Baca arrest: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/ Take a Walk on the Right Side Episode 6. https://anchor.fm/take-a-walk-on-the-right-side/episodes/Episode-6-Pandemic--Protests-and-Reciprocal-Radicalization-Gone-Wild-egk0ah/a-a2m68bt
Hello and welcome to I Don't Speak German, the anti-fascist podcast in which I, Jack Graham, he him, and my friend Daniel Harper, he him, have conversations about the far-right's conversations.
Every episode comes with a big content warning.
Hello everybody and welcome to your island of sanity in the ongoing destruction of Western civilisation.
This is I Don't Speak German, the podcast that's actually made of cake.
Too online?
What does that mean?
That's actually an old joke now, the everything being made of cake joke.
It's moved on to, this is episode 59 by the way, it's moved on to would Hank Hill have voted for Trump?
That's the new thing, isn't it?
That's a new meme, and actually that's something I would much rather talk about than what we're actually going to be talking about today, frankly.
I think doing a King of the Hill podcast, we're just going to transition into Doing an episode-by-episode guide of King of the Hill, and I think it would be much more pleasant than the work we're already doing.
Yeah, that's what we'll do when all this Nazism thing has gone away.
We'll do our King of the Hill podcast, because everything now has to have a podcast.
There isn't a way to be a cis white man on the left and not have a podcast.
It just doesn't exist anymore.
No, that's right.
It's compulsory.
So yeah, hello everybody.
Welcome to episode 59.
Wow, how about that?
Firstly, a couple of apologies.
Sorry for not doing an episode last week, because we didn't.
And I'm also sorry that we're not this week doing an episode about American History X as advertised.
Actually, we're not that sorry about that.
I'm really happy about it.
Oh, I am.
I'm sorry.
The plan was last week to do American History X, and then like this Heimbach Take a Walk on the Right Side episode 6 came out.
And I thought, oh, and it came out, like, it came out Saturday when we normally record on Sunday.
And I saw it Sunday morning and went like, well, let me Listen to this and like if there are responses to us, then I will you know do that We'll do it as a like a brief aside for before we get into American history X and then it was such like batshit nonsense that I get completely overwhelmed with trying to like even begin to understand like what was going on on that episode and I almost just did a solo episode just playing and laughing at that episode.
It's ridiculous.
It takes a fair amount of batshit nonsense to overwhelm Daniel Harper as well.
If it was just like Nazis being Nazis, it would be at least a sort of like you just get to sort of like laugh and go like, well, yeah, but you're a genocidal lunatic, so whatever.
But like, this is slightly more sophisticated.
I mean, it is more sophisticated.
It is more sophisticated.
And so I feel like it deserves, like, more, like, effort on my part to sort of, like, try to, like, kind of get it right and to understand it in terms of, like, to really kind of dig into the details.
But the more you dig into the details, the more you find yourself lost in an array of, you know, just, like, random shapes and colors.
It's like this, like, geometric you know, patterns that make no sense.
It's sort of like one of these, you know, sort of Lovecraftian, you know, like, you know, landscapes that have no, like, where the geometry doesn't make sense.
That's sort of what it is to try to understand Heimbach and Jesse Martin having a political conversation with any context of, like, a reality of what, like, actual politics is like.
And I'm sorry, we're not even going to scratch the surface of the nonsense here, but we're going to, like, touch on it.
I'm gonna go, we're gonna go over it.
But, like, believe me, I think everyone listening to this podcast should drop it right now and go listen to Episode 6 or take a walk on the right side and then come back.
Because it is, it is, if you do not feel the need to respond to it, it is hilarious.
So, yeah.
Yeah, just go and do that, but just be aware you might find yourself metaphysically transfigured by a giant black monolith into a gigantic floating baby.
It could happen.
You're just going to turn into an insect halfway through and wake up the next morning.
Yeah.
The sheer conglomeration of non-Euclidean geometries will actually turn your body into a load of bubbles like Azathoth.
That will happen.
We're just going to continue to go down sci-fi literary references.
Well, this is part of the process, I think.
This is how it works.
But yeah, this is episode 59, The Heimbach Maneuver.
So we're going to be getting into that.
But first, we do have some other things to... I mean, so much news these days.
Haven't you found that, listeners?
There's so much news, we can't even talk about how much news there is.
Earlier today on Twitter, Camilla Long, the columnist, said that having to wear masks was Nazism.
And I beg to differ.
I beg to differ.
I don't think wearing a mask to protect people against COVID-19 is Nazism.
I mean, I don't know, maybe Richard Evans and Ian Kershaw all disagree?
I don't know.
But I don't think it is.
I think Robert Jan van Pelt is going to say, well actually the really terrible thing that they did at Auschwitz was forcing the inmates to wear masks.
That was the real crime.
Well no, I mean clearly by Camilla Long's logic, you know, Nazism is when you force the middle class people in the town down the road from Auschwitz to wear masks to protect themselves from the smell.
That's the real tragedy here, apparently, by this logic.
This really is the darkest podcast in existence.
Please continue.
Yeah, and another news story we're not going to talk about, but I wanted to just sort of put a pin in, basically because I'd like to put a pin in all the people involved, is Lauren Southern, apparently back from her little break, and now again apparently hired by Andrew Neil, the left-wing journalist, according to Ben Shapiro, to work for the Spectator magazine!
Hold on, was Andrew Neil the one that did the completely softball interview with Ben Shapiro that one time?
And Ben Shapiro was like, well, clearly you're a man of the left.
Is this the same guy that I'm thinking of?
That's the one.
And I wouldn't, I mean, to Neil's credit, I wouldn't call that a completely softball interview.
Because certainly, that was the problem, wasn't it?
From Ben Shapiro's point of view, that it wasn't a softball book tour interview of the type that he was expecting.
He actually got challenged on some of his shit.
And it was just amusing.
You know, I have to give Neil some credit here, even though I despise Neil and everything he stands for.
I have to give him some credit.
It was fun watching Ben Shapiro instantly fall to pieces under the slightest pressure, you know, of his own words being repeated back to him.
But yeah, he was the one that did that.
Andrew Neil did that to Ben Shapiro.
And Ben Shapiro said, just admit that you're on the left.
Which, of course, if you're British and you know anything about British journalism, that is the funniest thing that's ever been said by anybody ever.
I don't have the energy.
I saw that Lauren Southern had a new gig and I didn't really look into it.
I'm dealing with other stuff.
We will do a Lauren Southern episode.
I promise we will do it.
I just don't have the energy.
I'm done right now.
I don't need more bullshit to deal with.
And certainly not Lauren Southern having a career again, so... No, indeed.
I just thought it was worth noticing.
I mean, the Spectator has always been a disgusting right-wing rag, but I think this is worth making a note of.
You know, Lauren Southern now, you know, with the slightest sort of barest fig leaf of a faint wisp of a pretense of slightly toning it down, she's now acceptable at the Spectator.
That's great.
The fact that Ben Shapiro is apparently beyond, like, gets the slightest pushback at all from Andrew Neil, whereas Lauren Southern, who is, by any standard, You know, 10% worse than Ben Shapiro.
Not to say Ben Shapiro is in any way blameless or should not be challenged at all, but the difference is who gets a challenge and who gets a place in your network.
Kind of like this.
Slightly inconsistent, I would say.
Who am I to choose who gets hired by The Spectator?
I'm not saying this.
This is not an accusation of any kind, you know.
But anybody who's familiar with the British magazine Private Eye will be familiar with a particular photograph.
And, I don't know, I think maybe it's sexist of me to imply that Lauren Southern was hired by Andrew Neil for reasons other than her journalistic skill.
I don't know.
I don't know who that reflects worse on.
But let's... One other thing I wanted to say was that Daniel and I, maybe by the time this podcast comes out, Christine will have met her Patreon goals for... Because one of her goals sees Daniel doing a podcast with Christine Kelly, who's a brilliant culture writer.
She does a blog all about Kate Bush.
And it's brilliant reading.
Dreams of Organon, it's called.
She's at Ballardian Gorse on Twitter.
And another of Christine's Twitter and Patreon goals is she gets to a certain point and I do a Shabcast with her.
The Shabcast is my old occasional solo podcast.
And yeah, if you can, if you can tootle over to look at Christine's site and read her stuff, that's something you should definitely be doing if that, you know, if pop culture writing, Kate Bush writing interests you.
And if you can contribute to her Patreon, that'd be a great thing to do as well, because I want to do that podcast.
So get on it, listeners.
Well, the beauty is, in between you and I kind of playing into this episode, An hour ago, and right now, she has met the limit of which I am going to be on the podcast.
I was just talking to her, and I think we're going to talk about Life of Brian, Monty Python's Life of Brian.
Oh, that's not fair!
I want to talk about Life of Brian!
Well, we talked about that, and you could come on and talk about Life of Brian, or you and I could do it together, it would be perfectly fine.
The problem is we don't really know where we're going to put it, so we're probably just going to ask you to put it on the Shabcast feed.
Yeah, okay, I'll host it and put it on the Shabcast feed and then I can just interrupt all the time.
Great, sorted.
Yeah, you can just edit in your own comments.
That will be fine.
So yeah, I think that's the news we're not talking about covered.
We're now moving on to the news that we are talking about.
Indeed.
And we're starting, wait for it, with the triumphant return of... Cantwell News, aren't we Daniel?
I'm so sorry about this.
This was the most obvious thing.
So, Cantwell's been in jail for a while, since January, and COVID hit in March, and you couldn't get a grand jury for a couple of months.
There was always going to be an amended indictment because they all like they they got him in jail on like the most basic charge they could get one and the prosecutors always wanted to amend the indictment it was always an obvious thing but it came down and you know here's the here's the the sort of reality of this so I just you know We can just read this, you know.
Christopher Cantwell, a New Hampshire resident who rose to prominence in 2017 after a violent rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, has remained in federal custody since he pleaded not guilty to using the Telegram messaging app last year to threaten to rape the wife of a person he was having a dispute with.
This is like the most generic examination or description of this event possible.
He also threatened to publish the person's personal information on the internet.
Campbell was initially charged with the store shit and sending interstate threats.
But on July 8th, he was indicted on additional charges of cyber stalking and threatening to injure property or reputation.
So, essentially they just admitted the indictment for all the other shit they could have charged him with to begin with, but they didn't quite get the paperwork in order, and now he's facing like 40 years or something like that.
He won't actually serve that, even if he gets convicted of it, because you never do.
But Cantwell has, these are literally charges that Cantwell has admitted to doing to federal agents.
Like, you know, he's going to get convicted of this.
There's no open question about this.
You know, I normally do not troll over people like having to serve federal time, but when it's Cantwell, he had every opportunity not to do this.
It's also interesting that the thing that he ultimately was trying to threaten his buddy Cheddar Mane, or his ex-buddy Cheddar Mane with, was he was trying to extort the docs of quote-unquote Friend of the pod, Nazi terrorist, 09A, Bowl Patrol shithead, Vic Mackey.
And it came out like a couple weeks ago that Vic Mackey's, Vic Mackey's information finally, he was finally doxxed.
And it turns out that all you have to do is like spend 10 months on Google and actually do the work to dox people as opposed to threatening your buddy with Child Protective Services coming after his family.
And threatened to rape his wife.
Turns out there's a right way to do this and a wrong way to do this.
And yeah, so go to hell, Chris.
Also, Vic Mackey, you can also go to hell.
Like, you know, you're both bad.
Oh, totally.
Yeah.
And it turns out, you know, Vic Mackey probably committed some hate crimes.
At least one hate crime.
Oh, really?
You showed me.
Yeah, he vandalized a synagogue.
There's very, very good evidence that he vandalized a synagogue.
And bragged about it on the quote-unquote missing episode of BullCast, which I always had.
I always had.
Let's not even pretend.
Yeah, no, nobody has that episode.
I don't know who possibly would have that.
No, it was always perfectly available to a number of people, including me, which Chris Cantwell also tried to threaten people to get that episode back in the day.
So, you know, maybe they'll keep him in the indictment.
Maybe that's going to be the process of, you know, the Feds just continuing to add charges onto Cantwell to make his life a living hell.
I think that would be sufficient.
But also, maybe they'll actually do something about Vic Mackey now.
So we'll see.
You never know, do you?
Again, it turns out there's a right way and a wrong way to do these things.
The right way involves more work, but it's both morally superior and more efficacious.
It doesn't involve threatening to rape somebody, which is always a plus.
If a plan doesn't involve that, I would say it's a better plan.
And to be fair, just to be clear, I don't think Cantwell necessarily considered Cheddar Mayne's wife to be a person.
And so it's not like he threatened to rape somebody, he threatened to rape somebody's wife, is sort of where I think Cantwell's brain would go on that.
Yeah, that's it, isn't it?
That's the whole point.
Um, yeah, as always in these situations, you know, I kind of instinctively recoil from being happy about the American authoritarian, law-and-order, carceral state throwing somebody into one of its privatised slave gulags for decades, but, you know, on the other hand, he's a Nazi that threatens to rape people, so... fuck him.
I would be happy, I mean, you know, just let all the people out on drug charges and minor assaults.
Like, if everyone else who committed a crime that he committed or less gets to get out, I'm perfectly fine with him getting out too.
Like, that's great for me, you know?
It's kind of like when Nazis go like, what do you think, somebody should get fired just for being a Nazi?
And I'm like, what do you think, somebody should get fired for just being gay?
Like, you know, like, I'll tell you what, let's trade!
Not to make a clear, like, direct comparison between the two, because being a Nazi is a horrifying thing, and being gay is perfectly reasonable, but at the same time, like, you know, in the United States, and certainly in right-to-work states, and in most other states regardless, you can be fired for basically any reason whatsoever.
And so, like, yes, I agree.
There should be greater workplace protections against, like, all people.
And not just fucking Nazis.
You know?
So, like... Although I think even with greater work protections, it should still be possible to fire somebody for being a Nazi.
Yeah, no, no.
I would... You know, this is kind of my opening kind of bargaining position.
This is sort of, like, kind of where I go on, like, well, maybe if you would, like, Be less of a Nazi and support like people not being fired for Completely innocuous reasons then maybe I will take your argument seriously that maybe you should be allowed to have a job You know to have that job, you know like yeah sure sure, but you won't stand behind that you will This is going to come back later when we talk about the Heimbach episode by the way But you know we can we can move on from here
Okay, so the next news story that we, that was Cantwell News.
I was going to do that literally in like 20 seconds and just kind of like do it like on one breath and like, it turns out Cantwell is now back in jail because, or you know, I was going to do this in a very, I was going to kind of pre-write a thing and just kind of go like, and there's our Cantwell News done.
Done over, good.
Onwards.
Yeah.
So, yes, onwards to the second news story that we are going to talk about, which is Tucker Carlson and his writer.
What's this guy's name?
Blake Neff.
Blake Neff, yes, who is kind of a daily caller writer going back to 2014.
Kind of picked out.
I think he went to law school and kind of either got out or I'm not sure kind of what the background was I was trying to look into this guy's background into his like history And it's kind of hard to I mean, he's done some interviews, but they really don't kind of dig too deeply in I mean, I know he went to Dartmouth.
So he you know, he went to sort of sort of the the baby Ivies but he I believe at least a little bit of time in law school and then graduated and then or didn't and
And then became a Daily Caller writer and eventually graduated to being Tucker Carlson's sort of like head writer for Tucker Carlson's television show and by Blake Neff's kind of interviews, which are, you know, you always have to kind of take this with a grain of salt when it's a guy talking to his alumni letter and saying like, you know, every word that comes out of like Tucker Carlson's mouth and his monologues went through me first.
Like I wrote the first draft of that.
Imagine that being your boast.
But it does seem that that's also, like, fairly true, is that, like, he was kind of the head writer, and so he was writing these sort of, like, opening monologues.
And the opening monologues are ultimately kind of where the sort of, like, pseudo-white nationalist stuff from Tucker Carlson's show is really the most overt, right?
Yeah.
And so...
Without wishing to give Tucker any excuses, I'm quite willing to believe when I look at his gormless, slack-jawed, empty-eyed, eyes-like-buttons-sewn-on face that he doesn't write his own material, to be honest.
Right, I mean, you know, Tucker Carlson's a perfectly, I mean, I think he's a perfectly sort of, like, bright, you know, like, person with his ability to, you know, in terms of kind of delivering material.
I mean, certainly, you know, I would not pretend to be a professional broadcaster myself, but it's clear, like, you know, the way that you become a brilliant person on screen is you have, like, a bunch of writers that give you good material.
By any standard, you know, in terms of just kind of technical skill, Blake Neff clearly knows what he's doing.
And so there's this piece released by CNN, and it's Oliver Darcy broke this story.
And it's pretty amazing.
It turns out that this guy Blake Neff was hanging out on this forum, which is apparently, like, I'd never heard of this forum, and I kind of listened to a bunch of Nazis this week kind of talk about this story.
And kind of like none of them had ever heard of this forum either, which is kind of interesting, but it is this forum which is kind of built around like it's apparently a like built around like kind of a law school students sort of sitting on this board and kind of talking about It's sort of like, it's like a 4chan for law school students, or whatever, and so it's this pretty obscure board.
Oh, that sounds great.
Yeah, no, it's like, imagine 4chan, but only with, like, rich fucking assholes going to, you know, law school.
And, um, he was posting onto this forum under the name Charles XII.
And, uh, it's a bunch of, like, vaguely racist shit.
Now, the one thing that he seems to have not really talked a lot about, or any about, like, everybody's kind of going, like, what did he say about the Jews?
What did he say about Jews?
Um, and nobody could kind of find a bit of him, like, kind of talking about Jews or anything on this forum, and so he may not be completely full-fledged, like, kind of far-right Nazi, but, I mean, certainly there's a lot of, I mean, like, look, you know, In the subject line of this like question where like and this is sort of like the the back and forth that you just kind of get on this forum, would you let a jet black Congo N-word do LASIK eye surgery on you for 50% off?
And Neff wrote, I wouldn't get LASIK from an Asian for free, so no.
So like um that's pretty overtly racist.
I mean you know this is this is you know This is like stupid like this even just like kind of the nonsense stupid racism like this is almost like the racism that people Graduate from in order to become like full-fledged neo-nazis in a way But he's in his you know, like 30s or whatever.
still kind of kind of pulling this shit and um writing for like who the person who is as who was as of this uh kind of uh release the single biggest name in cable news in the united states was tucker carlson like he'd been kind of sitting at two or three for a long time and uh with the uh with the kind of riots in minneapolis and such he had kind of graduated to number one so way to go uh tucker carlson and you're fucking vaguely nazi proto-nazi bullshit
And this guy, Blake Neff, seems to be kind of the person who was kind of in charge of developing that.
Interestingly, on the Monday after this was released, because this came out on a Saturday, Tucker did a show on Monday he talked about it kind of like said well this is unacceptable we can't possibly support this and we don't think that this really kind of reaches the standards of our program and oh by the way I'm going on a long-planned fishing vacation I will see you in a couple of weeks That was the response from Tucker Carlson.
Well Tucker, I've got some bad news for you about one of the other key people in your show and some remarks you made on a radio show a few years ago.
You know, lots of them about underage girls and stuff like that.
So you better fire that guy as well.
No, I think it's particularly interesting given that Tucker's shtick is kind of to do this, you know, it's not racist to talk about immigration, it's not racist to talk about how society is changing so fast under the impact of immigration, it's not racist to talk about the fact that there are loads of communities now where You know, people who were born there no longer speak the same language as loads of these people that moved in.
You know, he does this same old anti-immigrant racist shit over and over again, together with loads of other reactionary crap.
And his shtick is always to do this, it's not racist to talk about these things, I'm not being racist.
I'm not saying that immigrants are nasty, most of them are nice, it's just a matter of demographics.
And the hysterical left try to smear you as racist if you talk about these things.
And meanwhile, his key writer is in a racist forum doing racist jokes with a bunch of racists racistly.
My immediate thought was, like, this guy's got to have been.
Like, I went on, like, the Discord leaks and I started kind of looking for, you know, kind of similar stuff.
And looking for Charles XII and kind of going and did, like, a very kind of cursory search.
And it's very possible that he used a different name.
It's very possible that he had some other alter egos.
It would amaze me if he did not have much more exposure to this kind of stuff than, like, I've long said there was somebody on Tucker Carlson's staff who's listening to Fascination.
You have?
Not because, and I've said that since 2017, long before we were doing this podcast.
I thought that there was some kind of feedback, some kind of back and forth going on.
One of the things that I, you know, kind of long had this kind of thought of is, like, somebody needs to go and, like, find all the people who are kind of working on Tucker Carlson's staff, and just go and, like, dig into all their backgrounds.
You know?
And it sounds like maybe that's kind of what's going on, or at least with this guy Blake Neff, is, like, they found these messages, and it seems to be very, you know, concretely confirmed, you know?
Certainly, Tucker fired the guy.
And the reality is that, you know, like every Nazi in my sort of like field of vision, everybody that I'm kind of like following, has always kind of been like, well, Tucker knows more than he's allowed to say.
He's hiding his power levels.
And some of them get frustrated with him not kind of going out there and like really like quote unquote naming the G or whatever.
But more and more often it's more, you know, well, he's out there and he's kind of doing the thing.
But there has been some frustration of like, well, you know, ultimately he's just kind of a release valve.
He's, you know, kind of giving people the ability to express their frustration over this without really giving them like the real enemy, quote unquote.
And so there is this kind of back and forth over this.
But it is interesting that this kind of came out.
And the immediate thought was like, well, this guy's clearly one of us, even if he's not like kind of like going right out and naming the Jew.
Like this is somebody who is like clearly he's kind of our guy to some degree.
And so, yeah, it's, you know, it's it's it's one of those things.
It's like, you know, once you saw it, it's like, yeah, no, clearly, you know, big surprise.
I'm sure what we've got here is a little window into the truth about the Ivy Leaguers and the baby Ivy Leaguers, you know, these sons of privilege, you know, with their sweaters tied around their waists and their polo shirts and shit.
You know, behind closed doors, bunch of fucking racists.
Well, yeah, I mean, clearly, and particularly... And not even really behind closed doors a lot of the time, but they do hide their power levels, I think.
Right, and clearly sort of the way that this sort of like alt-right language has been, you know, like you're not...
Like, there was a moment in sort of 2016-2017 in which you could sort of be much more open about this, and you could sort of talk about these things in a fairly open way within the confines of these kind of halls of power.
And then since Unite the Right, there's been a much more, well, after Hellgate, before when Richard Spencer did a speech and a bunch of people did the, you know, the Hal Hitler salute, the Roman salute.
And then, particularly after Unite the Right, it became much more, you know, we have to kind of hide back in the shadows again.
And if you're past, or you say something that sort of exposes you to the brass, they're definitely going to fucking fire you, because it's their better optics to do that.
But ultimately, this is part of the ecosystem of far-ranked media at this point.
And even like, I mean, I'm sure if you talk to Sean Hannity's staff, If you found his fucking interns, they're saying the same sorts of things.
All of the college Republicans at this point speak this language.
And that's the thing that I keep trying to get across here is that it's not what they say, it's what they say where they think we're not listening.
And the fact that I don't have access to those internal forums doesn't mean They're not saying it and so knowing this guy Blake Neff who is at the tippy top of like the like far right or even the middle right center right news medium he is the head writer for the top show in cable news is sitting and going almost to the point of denying the holocaust on a forum under a name that was connected to him yeah and once you realize that
You understand just how the media ecosystem works in this country.
This is certainly not going to come back in the next two weeks when we talk about the intellectual dark web and their obsession with cancel culture.
Anyway... Oh no, certainly not.
No, I mean, you mentioned that moment, you know, the...
You know, the alt-right at Perihelion, and that moment when it became kind of acceptable to start saying these things, and a lot of people kind of, they went, great I can say it now, and they ran straight in and they started saying it, and I think what we see with people like Tucker and his mate, obviously, and I hate to give him any credit, but I think we see the smart play, where Tucker, you know, Yeah, he never actually declared himself at that moment.
He's playing the long game.
You know, there was the opening at Fox News when Bill O'Reilly had to go because he just sexually harassed too many women and Tucker saw the opportunity.
Just one too many.
One too many.
Yeah.
34 is fine.
35.
That's where, you know, I don't know the exact number, but like it really was this kind of moment of like, you just made it too obvious.
So now you have to go away and make 50 million dollars a year on your own podcast.
That's your, that's your punishment.
Well, you know, that's podcast money for you.
But yeah, you have to hand it to Tucker.
He played the long game.
He's now, in my opinion anyway, one of the principal ideological motors of the progression towards open fascism in the United States.
I mean, he's getting thrown around as, like, you know, presidential candidate.
Presidential candidate, yeah.
There's been increasing speculation about that, which is something, again, Fascination was talking about in, like, 2018.
It's like, well, you know, Tucker in 2024, after Trump does another four years, and now they've completely lost faith in Trump.
Um, you know, Carlson doesn't have the, uh, I mean, there's just no way to get Carlson in for 2020, but, you know, they're certainly sort of, like, talking about, like, Tucker Carlson would be a really great candidate, you know, for, you know, a future presidential run, uh, for sure.
Oh, yeah.
Well, again, I mean, Tucker's smart enough to think, well, you know, I don't want to be the candidate in 2020.
I want to leave it a bit.
But yeah, that's something that could well happen.
Hey, Biden-Carlson 2024.
That's going to be the big battle, apparently.
Yeah.
It's going to be great.
Looking forward to that.
We don't talk about Joe Biden.
We don't, no.
It's our new catchphrase.
That's right.
Don't mention Joe Biden.
We can mention, we just don't talk about him.
We just don't.
Others don't need to talk about this.
Anyway, next on our News Roundup episode, which I should have said before that this is a News Roundup episode, but I'll probably edit in the music so you'll know.
The next story that we're going to talk about is Portland.
Yes, Portland.
It's sad when it's enough to just say the name of a place.
Portland is sad.
I'm just going to say go and check out friend of the pod Robert Evans who has been on top of this.
There have been 50 plus days of protests, and he has been out there for at least 30 of those days.
As of a couple days ago, he had an interview in the New York Times.
Go, Robert Evans, for your New York Times interview.
I was once quoted in the Times talking about Christopher Cantwell's dick.
This is much more important than Christopher Cantwell's dick.
But he was talking about the protests, and about what's going on on the ground, and about the fact that we now have Federal agents, in contrast with what the kind of local authorities, like sort of the governor of Oregon, the mayor of Portland, who is also the police chief of Portland, and sort of a complicated situation, the local authorities do not agree with the federal agents kind of coming in and doing snatch and grabs.
And the federal agents are coming in and doing snatch and grabs.
And where they are essentially taking, from everything we've heard, they're taking people off the streets.
Taking people who were suspected to be involved with protest actions or with rioting.
This is Department of Homeland Security, isn't it?
Yeah, this is, I forget the exact name of the thing, there's a particular group which is, it's in DHS, it's part of ICE slash Customs and Border Patrol.
So one of the things you kind of have to understand about sort of icing, particularly CBP, is that there's a 100 mile zone.
around the country like essentially if you're within 100 miles of like salt water you are uh subject to like search and seizure by cbp regardless um you will notice that i live in the state of michigan and the entire state of michigan is within 100 miles so you know and i saw some like comments on twitter of like that can't be real right like you can't they can't actually do that and it's like no no i mean you can link the aclu will tell you no this is completely something they are legally allowed to do now
whether that's a thing that they should be allowed to do is a very different question but they definitely can do this uh for sure um so uh but you know certainly portland is within 100 miles and so you know you do have essentially uh unmarked vans of people with uh you know clearly federal agents who have federal training and it's
As much as we say, you know, fuck the cops, the cops are basically, you know, your local police are essentially trained to do like crowd control and they're trained to do, you know, they're not trained killers.
Let's just put it that way.
These federal agents are fucking trained killers.
Like that's just, that's just the reality of the situation.
These are people who know, and one of the things that happened The cops kind of have to teach themselves to be trained killers in their spare time.
These guys are actually trained as part of their job training.
Well, and they're trained to do, I mean there is this sort of like killology thing.
It's kind of done by this like one guy who's trained like 20% of US cops or something like that.
And I forget the guy's name, but there is this sort of like program where they're trained to like sort of like you are always under threat, you're always in an attack, you have to see the people around you.
And so they are sort of given training to teach them to kill without feeling bad about it and without bias, but they don't get the kind of training that a soldier gets or that these kind of local agents get.
Like specific, this is how you kill people.
This is how you actually do this, right?
Yeah.
I can put links to the relevant episodes of Some More News and QAnon Anonymous if you want to know about this insane man that goes around teaching the police to be homicidal killers.
Yes, Behind the Bastards did a nice piece about it as well.
So, you know, but yeah, no, it's it's and so the federal agents are not that.
These are people who are actually trained specifically on like how to kill people, how to actually like put down insurgents and that sort of thing.
Like these are these are like kind of counter-terror groups or kind of whatever.
It's really unclear because this particular unit of the federal government, like they don't wear badges, they just kind of wear like camo gear.
And they just kind of go out and snatch people and they have the authority to do this.
And what they're doing is they're snatching people off the street.
They put them in an unbarched van, a rental van, drive them around for a while, put them in a, for like an hour and a half, put them in a particular location, question them for a little bit, or just release them.
question them for a little bit or just release them and you go okay bye you're done and uh there's been a lot of speculation about this like is this like so i mean it's a terror tactic clearly um because you never you know if you're just snatched off the street by like you know like armed federal agents this is uh it's scary it's scary it's scary you know nobody wants this uh to happen um but it's also like it does kind of feel like trial run for for other things
And you go, okay, bye, you're done.
And there's been a lot of speculation about this.
and um you know there's let me be clear about this there's a long history of this being done to uh uh minority population particularly with african-american populations within you know sort of quote-unquote high crime cities um there is there was a black site in chicago for instance that was well known where there were literally thousands of people who were brought to this black site and tortured and given like very little access to lawyers
and then they just sort of like either held or released after a few days and it seems like they're kind of ramping up doing something like that in portland at this point but doing it under federal auspices instead of local chicago police uh auspices um also Also, Hispanic populations, particularly populations that are composed primarily of immigrants, undocumented immigrants.
This is a very routine experience among many, many people.
you get these kinds of stories all the time of like we were snatched up, we were taken to a place, we were let go, um, you know, or we were put in detention for, you know, for a few days, whatever.
Um, this is, uh, this is ultimately terrifying.
This is not anything new.
We shouldn't think of it as anything new, except that it's being done specifically to, um, protesters in Portland.
Um, yeah, I have seen, um, isolated reports of this happening in Miami and Chicago as well.
Um, I don't have like really clear confirmation of that, but it is definitely happening in Portland.
And, um, ultimately this has to be resisted.
I feel I am nowhere near Portland.
I feel I Bad that there's so little I can do about this because it would feel better to be able to go out there and at least to document this and to be on the streets because this is a really important point in history, I think.
But I have so much respect for the people who are going out there and doing this who will suffer.
Post-traumatic stress disorder for the rest of their fucking lives over this and in particular, you know Friend of the pod Robert Evans and plenty of plenty of other people who are both known and unknown anonymous and anonymous if I can Use that use that phrasing and in particular we had a a A man who is, you know, this morning on Twitter he kind of becomes the Captain Portland is what they're calling him, but his Twitter handle is at taserface16.
And if you've seen Guardians of the Galaxy 2, you'll get the joke.
Yeah, it's like he's given himself one name referring to the MCU, and the internet's given him a different name referring to the MCU.
And it's ironic really, because this new power that's going around Portland picking people up is basically what S.H.I.E.L.D.
would be like in real life.
Right, although Captain America definitely had some things to say about S.H.I.E.L.D.
That's true, they turn out to be HYDRA.
Yeah, they turn out to be HYDRA, but they were always HYDRA as kind of the ultimate issue.
This is important, you see, because I get all my politics from Marvel movies.
Right, well also Tim Pool, you know.
Sorry, you just have to say that name and it makes me laugh.
Yeah, yeah, who is a giant Marvel movie fan.
I mean, I like the Marvel movies, they're fun.
I just don't take them seriously as political theatre, as Tim Poole tends to reference them on a regular basis.
I have to say, talking about wonderful interviews between people, one of my favourite things that ever happened was Tim Poole talking to Sam Seder.
You know, I have my issues with Sam Seder, but Tim's still talking to Sam Seder, and he tries to bring up analogies to the Marvel movies, and Sam Seder's just going, yeah, I didn't see it.
I didn't see it.
Well, you know that the villains in movies are mostly deontological, as opposed to... It's like, what the fuck are you talking about?
No, no, Tim Poole, not a friend of the pod, just to be clear.
I keep meaning to do an episode on him, but like, my god, why?
No, why?
Oh, we'll do it one day, just for the sheer pleasure of dissing the... Yeah.
Well, he put out this TimCast IRL, so he does his regular TimCast show, which is this show about... I mean, where he just reads the news articles for 15 minutes and then tunes in, but he also does this two-hour live show with a buddy of his, which is him in a studio, or a couple of buddies of his in a studio, and he goes through news stories and chats.
It's more of a chat show.
And he does a bit where he's talking about this story, and he's like...
You know, they're basically black bagging these people.
They're putting them in black bags.
This is like V for Vendetta, and you know, this is hilarious because it's Antifa, right?
But I always thought, like, you know, we always saw those movies when I was a kid.
I saw V for Vendetta, and it's like, those guys are supposed to be the bad guys.
But, like, man, it's hilarious.
Like, they're totally not the bad guys now, because they're going after Antifa.
And, um, no, Tim, actually.
He's scum, isn't he?
Actually, you did not understand that movie.
You missed the point, it turns out.
It turns out.
Yeah.
I mean, I do resist the simplistic like anti-anti-fa is like where it's two negatives and you're But in this case, it's pretty obvious.
It's pretty obvious.
Pretty clear, yeah.
Tim is one of those people.
See, they're the people standing up to the powers of the state to forcefully oppress people in ways that you may not like.
And then there's the power of the state to put those people into horrifying terrorist situations.
There's one side of these that's much better than the other.
Sorry, go ahead.
I'm trying to contemplate what goes on in Tim Poole's mind when he watches V for Vendetta and just the contortions of logic that, you know, I think I'm traveling down that star tunnel already.
Yeah, I mean, I'm just imagining, like, you know, how did you get to the end of that in which, you know, like, Evie blows up fucking Parliament and think, like, well, at least they're not Antifa.
I mean, does he think, like, V is the bad guy because he takes over the news studio and interferes with the news program?
Is that Antifa, you know, shutting down free speech and it's actually a tragedy because Adam Suttler loses?
What the fuck?
But then he is one of these people that says, you know, Orwell would have despised Antifa.
You know Orwell who actually voluntarily went to Spain to shoot fascists?
Yeah, well, you know, it's a thing.
So, yeah, that's Portland.
Sorry, I meant to talk about our, hopefully, friend of the pod.
I follow him on Twitter now.
He kind of woke up this morning and had about 300 followers, and then I checked it this afternoon and he had like 8,000.
So, you know, good for you, Taserface.
Fair enough, because that is badass, that clip.
That clip, we will put it in the show notes, but he's a Navy—and let me be clear about this.
I checked his Twitter feed.
He's a pretty normal Biden-supporting liberal.
I mean, let's not pretend this guy is something he's not.
But he put his fucking body on the line.
He went out there and did it.
He stands out there.
He's a Naval Academy grad.
He's in his 50s or something.
He stands out there and the cops wail at him.
They tear gas him at least three times.
They beat him with a stick.
This is all within about 20 seconds.
And he walks away and gives him the double middle finger on the way back.
And then it turns out they broke his right hand and his fingers in several places.
And a street medic, like, got him and, like, you know, protected his eyes and, like, helped him to, like, find his way to transportation and then drove him around to, like, find an ambulance to take him back.
And, like, on Twitter he's a little, like, I can only, like, type with one hand because my right hand is broken but I just wanted to say thank you to, like, this particular street medic.
Who helped me out and like you know and you know people were asking people were like basically saying like that is the most badass thing I've ever seen dude And he's like they're gonna put screws in my hand and don't worry.
I'll be back out there.
It's Jesus Christ like yeah fucking hero, man And you know this is where this is where we're leading into our main topic here.
This is where you say You know it's not what you say.
It's what you do that matters and I'm sure that Taserface and I would have deep ideological disagreements on a lot of things, but mad respect for getting out there and doing the thing that needed to be done at that moment, period.
Absolutely.
Yeah, serious props to Taserface.
I can't believe I just said that, by the way.
Somebody asked him, you know that's the bad guy, right?
And he's like, I just always like the name.
I love it.
Yeah, it's great.
I love it because the joke is the name's so crap as well.
Right, and even when you find out his name is Taserface, you're just like, I can't even be mad at you anymore.
It's fine.
It's fine.
Yeah, no serious, as I say, serious props to Taserface.
Fucking awesome.
And just to be clear here, he does nothing.
He's standing there completely innocently.
And the cops!
The cops!
Exercising his fucking democratic right to protest.
Exercising his right to protest completely peacefully.
And they wail on him.
And he just stands there like nothing's happening.
And it's...
I'm just gonna say we're about to be talking about a confronting violent extremism organization, and if you really want to combat violent extremism, maybe you should look at the fucking cops.
That's, you know, where I land on this.
Yeah, there's violent extremism right there in front of you, in action.
Yeah, like the metaphor of like the in-group out-group distinction I mean there are some like technical definitions for how extremism works and it's like Look at the code of like, you know blue lives matter and tell me that's not like an in-group out-group bullshit Like, you know, look at look at like this works exactly the same way any kind of violent terrorist group works They're just like sanctioned by the state and therefore sacrosanct And if you're not, look into that question.
In this situation, and you choose to make a political conversation around it, you do not deserve any of my respect.
That's where I land.
You're not serious.
You're not sincere.
You're a fucking opportunist.
So, yeah, on to our main topic.
And, yeah, this is... Fifty minutes into the recording!
That's right, yeah, fifty minutes of intro later on to our main topic, which is, I mean, this is the great, this is the perfect lead-in because it is the difference between what you say and what you actually do.
You know, putting your podcast out there and putting your body on the line.
You know, I can talk, but it is the difference, isn't it?
So, yeah, on to... I mean, to be fair, I've been on an Adam Woffin kill list, so, you know, let's, let's, you know, grant us, grant us a little bit of space here, to be fair.
Hey, I, I said me, not you, I said me.
Fair, I mean, so, no, no, no, sorry, I was just, I was just, like, clarifying, like, you know, Nazis hate us.
Don't, don't be, don't, don't be, don't, don't, don't keep yourself off that list there, man, you know, it's fine.
That's right, I was forgetting there for a second that I put myself in physical danger just by releasing this podcast.
Just by being my friend, you put yourself in physical danger, just to be clear.
Yeah, for a moment there I forgot our entire topic.
You just have so much fun talking to me that you forget how dangerous it is.
Yeah, that's fine.
That's right, yeah, that's right.
I'm prepared to, you know, if you can't take me at my Nazi-threatening best, you don't deserve me at my worst, or whatever way around it is.
So yeah, do you want to talk about Mrs. Heimbach and Morton?
Sure, so as of the last episode when we talked about this, I had mentioned that they had not, so Heimbach and Morton had not released a new episode of Take a Walk on the Right Side, and then a few days later they released the next episode of Take a Walk on the Right Side, in which they were supposed to talk about George Lincoln Rockwell's white power, which I was really looking forward to that one, because I'm just looking forward to seeing how they decide to cover that.
But instead, they decided to talk about, uh, let me, let me look up this, and I, I actually do recommend that people listen to this.
I, you know, I was kind of joking about it before.
I do want to be clear.
I think people, uh, interested in this topic should absolutely listen to this, and in fact, the, the podcast itself is not a, like, once you understand that they're sort of apologizing for white nationalism, there is some good information in there.
Like, if Matt Heimbach were actually the, uh, were actually, like, A reasonable person who, like, we could compare notes.
I think he and I could have a really interesting conversation about, like, Kels, there are things that he emphasizes a little bit more than I do, and things that I emphasize more than he does, and, you know, I think it is interesting to get his perspective.
So you have to sort of take it, uh, you sort of have to take it as written that there are quote-unquote problems with their presentation, but I think there is some good information in there.
Of course they do claim like we provide a unique nuanced perspective about the history of white nationalism in the United States and the growing international community and They say very little that we have not said on this podcast.
So just to just to be clear, you know They do pretend that like, oh, we're the only place to go for a nuanced conversation.
And what that means is we also blame Antifa for everything, even worse than the white nationalists.
So this is episode six.
It is called Pandemic Protests and Reciprocal Radicalization.
We'll put a link in the show notes so you can so you can check that out if you want to I am NOT going to like if we Spent less time kind of previously kind of going into this.
I would have probably spent more time kind of talking about the the details of this episode but pretty much what they want to do is the strategy is okay, we're gonna come in we're gonna talk about so what's going on and with the kind of aftermath of the George Floyd protests and Kind of talk about like some kind of what this means and what the far right is doing in response to this Etc and it turns into a giant let's blame Antifa for everything
You know, best.
Yep.
Heimbach gives pretty obvious, he's still got some kind of racist bones in his body kind of thing.
I mean, he kind of speaks, he speaks the right language.
And I think one of the things that I find interesting about this is that there is a, first we're going to kind of talk about sort of, you know, the kind of socio-political situation that we find ourselves in, you know, kind of July 2020.
And then towards the end, they start responding directly to the criticisms that they've gotten from people online, and specifically from a certain lowly podcaster, you know, our set of podcasters.
They do not mention us by name, and I think that's, you know, I think the reasons for that are obvious.
And so, for instance, you know, Morton sort of, you know, he kind of starts off and he says, like, we want to talk about sort of the socio-political phenomenon, like, kind of what's going on here in America today.
And then he says, you know, hey, Heimbach, Matt, tell us, you know, kind of tell us what you're thinking about in this moment.
Just kind of take it where you want to go.
Let's just have a conversation about it.
And Heimbach says, and I'm reading from this, so I put this through an auto transcription service, so the exact wording of this is probably slightly wrong, but I've got it mostly right.
Again, I've told you to listen to the full audio.
So, you know, he says, I saw a really great meme on Reddit and it was a guy in a skull mask.
We all know like the skull mask from talking about the siege killing groups like Atomwaffen.
And I was again, there was a guy relaxing on his couch where he says, it's wise for us to sit back and watch America tear itself to pieces.
And in a lot of ways, I think that's pretty accurate.
So essentially there's a meme he saw on Reddit where there's a guy in a skull mask who's kind of leaning back and going like, you know, Yeah, fuck this shit.
Like, what the far right is doing is just sitting back and letting, uh, letting the country tear itself apart, which is what they wanted to happen and begin with.
And then these two kind of work into, they start talking about, well, first of all, Heimbach, you know, he has his little bit here where he says, you know, there's rioters and looters and then there's protesters and these are kind of two different things.
And then he says, like, it is possible for a riot to be a legitimate form of protest, but, uh, you know, also, you know, you know what it's like when, uh, you know, people just kind of go out and stealing shoes, like, oh, you know, whatever, not like I care about the, you know, the bottom line of corporate America or whatever, but like, that seems like, ah, yeah, kind of whatever.
And it doesn't exactly say, like, you know, you know, black people be stealing, but that's clearly kind of what's in the back of his mind at that point.
You know, that sort of thing.
This is kind of what I'm saying, like, you know, there is some kind of, like, implicit racism just kind of right there while he's speaking, you know, on this.
And Morton, of course, doesn't challenge him on any of this, to be clear.
But he does kind of talk about this stuff, and he's kind of talking about, you know, people stealing.
And he says, like, well, look, all the white nationalists that I follow, all the people sort of in my realm, are saying, like, Stay out of this.
This is not our thing.
We do not need to kind of be out there, like, doing anything.
We do not want to be involved with this.
I agree.
All of the explicit white nationalists that are in my orbit, or the people that I follow, have also been not encouraging their people to kind of go out and be involved in this.
You and Heimbach and I agree on this.
Heimbach also says that there was like sort of this media frenzy around like was there sort of a white nationalist group or were there kind of white nationalists kind of out there like spreading this and kind of making this happen.
Also, not true, guess who challenged this?
At the time, us, here on this podcast, we did a whole episode about this, despite the fact that I didn't really want to, but we did one, and basically every other anti-fascist that I follow, or in any way in my orbit, in fact, Emily Gorsinsky has put a ton of energy into combating this.
Now, there were some academics of far-right extremism who fucked this up, But, you know, almost everyone in my orbit, and almost everyone who is knowledgeable about the situation at all, had a very interesting nuance of things to say about, like, the nature of the Boogaloo movement, and the way the Boogaloo movement was influencing these things, and the way that some of the white nationalists have been kind of influencing this stuff.
From the from the front from afar, but who were not like actively getting involved In fact, even the siege pill groups were sort of like hanging back because they didn't really want to get involved This was something that literally everyone in my orbit.
It was completely obvious We were talking about this the fact that the mainstream media was not listening to us Has nothing to do with anything right guess who does not get credit for that in this podcast episode us any of us know Yeah, by us I meant, you know, anti-fascists in general.
Right, anti-fascists in general.
And so instead, Antifa, as Heimbach presents it, is a bunch of people with Molotov cocktails, breaking windows, and throwing things, and destroying stuff.
And those people are just trying to instigate these protests, and ultimately a whole bunch of white people, and we're going to play a clip here in a second about this.
So he accuses the anti-fascist left of mongering a moral panic about fascists and white nationalists being involved in the protests, which we didn't do, and then he proceeds to monger a moral panic about evil terrorist Antifa out there throwing Molotov cocktails.
And actually instigating the violence instead of... Causing the... yeah.
Which isn't true.
Which isn't true at all.
And Morton in particular actually conflates Black Lives Matter and Antifa.
It's like, well, they have kind of a similar ideology.
And I mean, look, there's a lot of, you know, here's where I think...
Let's, you know, there's no need to play the same game that they're doing and sort of play open defense.
I know for a fact that there were people out there who were in like black block, you know, kind of breaking windows and throwing things and starting fights or whatever.
Because of course there were.
Because of course there were.
People like to break shit.
It happens.
What you do not see was sort of an organized effort of anti-fascists using anti-fascist tactics, kind of going out there and doing the thing.
The people that I know who consider themselves anti-fascists, who were going out and protesting, were protesting as part of larger groups, right?
Like, it's part of the whole process, and there is plenty of video and plenty of reporting that demonstrates this completely like you do not see like armed blocks of antifa like attacking cops this isn't what's happening the cops are laying quote unquote less than lethal armaments into unarmed protesters that's the story of what's happening and yes there are fires being set and yes there are windows being broken and yes
and if you want to like clutch your pearls about that you can do i mean whatever that's not my problem but um if you're not focusing on the fact that the fucking cops are the instigators of this violence uh then you're missing the point And in fact, the initial round of protests in Minneapolis, and this is something I'm pretty sure we mentioned at the time, What happened was, you had perfectly ordinary, reasonable protests.
The cops opened fire on the original mass of protesters in Minneapolis, and it escalated from there.
And it's pure escalation that was created by the fucking cops.
Because if you're being fired upon by agents of the state, you're going to respond in kind.
You have to, or else you're going to fucking die.
And this whole thing could be prevented by just getting the cops to stand down.
By actually doing the thing.
Look, if you ask me, whole communities are just under normal conditions.
They're under sustained systemic siege by the police as the violent enforcers of white supremacy and capitalism.
You know, to the point where they're in danger from the police routinely, right?
So if they took to the streets to defend their community, they would be completely within their rights to do that, in my opinion, right?
That's not even what's happening.
What's happening is that they are protesting about the normal conditions of violent police enforcement of white supremacy, and the police are meeting those protests with violence that then escalates the situation.
So there's no moral equivalence, let alone the moral flip that these people are doing.
Exactly, exactly.
I mean, the whole logic is just broken, you know, ultimately.
Bass-ackwards.
Right, you know, and so it takes the people... I mean, they completely neglect.
Now, and there is some distance between Heimbach and Martin here, and I want to be... This is one of the things that was fascinating to me, sort of listening and re-listening to this episode.
It's sort of like where Morton lands on things versus where Heimbach lands on things.
Morton is really tough to sort of like, you know, understand kind of where his politics lie because he often produces a bunch of word salad and doesn't make simple declarative sentences.
He just sort of kind of wanders off into a point, you know, a lot.
Heimbach kind of does the same thing, but at least he has like enough of you kind of get a sense of enough of his perspective.
And since you reach a period a little bit more often, so you at least have like some kind of sense.
I have no clear idea about where Morton's politics lie except for who he chooses to surround himself with and who he chooses to attack.
And so my read of Morton, based on my kind of through a fog darkly kind of understanding, is that Morton is probably more... Morton is not a white nationalist and not someone who...
I would consider to be kind of a full-fledged Nazi.
In fact, he speaks the language in some ways of, you know, kind of like, well, we need to reform and possibly dismantle the police.
This is something we need to kind of talk about.
And, you know, he speaks this kind of very nice kind of like progressive game, very similar to some of the IDW figures that we're going to follow.
In fact, I'm prepping those two IDW episodes.
In fact, I'm prepping more than two, but I'm particularly prepping two episodes for
Intellectual dark web figures and it's striking how similar some of the rhetoric is to that and we will kind of cover a little bit of that in future episodes, but I think it's important to note that we can differentiate between Heimbach and Martin here And I want to be absolutely clear about the fact that I do notice that and I do recognize that you know I know I do not want to be accused of doing the thing of sort of like not not presenting the nuance here and not presenting the
A realistic picture of kind of who I think these people are, you know?
Well, clearly we'll be accused of it, but we need to be able to say, yeah, that's... Well, I want any reasonable person who's actually listening to what I have to say, you know, be able to laugh at that.
That's sort of the thing.
Yeah.
Over and over again, Hein Black omits facts, presents things in ways that are kind of very right-wing leaning in terms of, you know, it's kind of like his perspective on events that are happening.
At one point in this, At one point in this thing, I mean, he does mention, for instance, that some of the people who have been arrested as part of the Boogaloo crowd are, you know, definitively non-white.
And that would be awkward for those white nationalists, although there are, you know, open white nationalists who are, you know, distinctly non-white looking by the standards of what white nationalists think is white.
In fact, even Vic Mackey, if that... I'm choosing not to name him on this podcast, but definitely had a sort of brownish hue.
if, you know, I don't fucking care.
But, you know, let's not pretend that that's not, like, a thing.
But there's even, he mentions the fact that he's long said, he says he's long said this, I don't remember him explicitly kind of saying this.
I could probably find it.
But he's long said that, like, the civic nationalist militia types are actually more dangerous than kind of overt white nationalist types.
Again, defending white nationalists from being actually instigators of violence, right?
His logic is that civic nationalists are trying to defend an existing country, whereas white nationalists or white separatists are trying to kind of build their new country, as if that matters at all in terms of who's likely to be, but like that's, yeah, this is deeply fucked up.
So, he did have, he does have this moment, and again, this is reading from the auto transcript here, and I apologize for not kind of cleaning this up a bit, but he says,
You know, I feel like one of the biggest ones in incidents of, you know, things that are not getting quote-unquote reported by the media is there were a couple militia guys in Hawaiian shirts hanging out at protests, and there was a conflict there where a shooting where a militiaman was attacked by an Antifa, and he was shot back, and then he was charged with attempted murder or some crazy thing like that.
But the most serious charges were dropped like once everyone began to catch their breath and then look at the facts.
And I feel like this happens a lot in America.
And I don't know this militia guy from Adam.
Who knows?
He could be a crappy person.
He could be a great person.
I don't know.
But the rush to judgment creates this media narrative and this feeding frenzy of where it can go from.
Well, let's find out what happened.
Let's do an investigation.
Guess who has done an investigation?
Actually, not me.
It's Twitter user Chad Loader, who I recently found out follows me.
Thanks, Chad.
If you ever want to be on the podcast, you're welcome.
So this is a reporter.
He has, you know, like 73,000 followers.
And so what he's referring to is this guy Stephen Baca.
Now, Stephen Baca, and this kind of gets repeated on far-right media as someone who was, quote-unquote, protecting a statue in Albuquerque, and he was swarmed by Antifa.
And then after he was finally attacked, he shot in self-defense and injured someone.
And then he got arrested and was charged with violent felonies.
And I'm going to link, we will link to a thread about this from this journalist, Chad Loader.
Who demonstrates completely with video taken at the time and then highlighted again with more video from because this was recorded from several angles that this guy Stephen Baca actually violently assaulted at least two women before he was ever attacked and by the laws in New Mexico in Albuquerque and When he fled the scene after attacking these people, they were completely under their rights to actually commit a citizen's arrest.
Which, if you remember the Armand Arbery case in Georgia, that was the whole justification for why it was okay to murder a man and chase him with a truck.
Yeah.
And in this case, you have unarmed anti-fascists who dragged this guy down.
And this guy, Steve Baca, he Both.
At one point he literally like body slams a woman.
He pepper sprays at least two or three people.
This is clear.
This is on camera.
This guy is definitely going to get, you know, and then he's like, well, the charges were dropped, et cetera.
It turns out they weren't as serious.
And then like a few days later, they, they brought the charges back.
And, uh, you know that, um, you know, while I've given you, I'm going to give you a link to this so you can kind of look at more of the details and I've given you the guy's name, et cetera, et cetera.
I'm not going to kind of done a deep dive on this because the details of this are not like important to my story here, but Heimbach gives you absolutely no detail at all.
Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, so what's happened here is that while whinging about people rushing to judgment, Matt has actually rushed to judgment and gotten it completely wrong.
Right, and he even says, like, people won't even watch a five minute clip.
Well, obviously you didn't watch the clips that were in this thread, and maybe you don't follow Chadloader, which, you know, I would completely understand.
And maybe your media diet is completely overwhelmed with, like, fucking far-right media sources, in which case you would get that impression.
I think that's a problem, personally.
Yeah, I'm very bothered about these people who rush to judgment because they live in an echo chamber and they just listen to each other.
Yeah, watch the... won't even watch the clips.
It's only one Sargon long, for God's sake.
And I want to be clear here, I'm just waiting for somebody to blame me, to accuse me of not following any right-wing news sources, just to be clear here.
It is really funny, I actually got accused of that by resistance liberals, like, yeah, you just follow the far-left people that you agree with.
Yeah, the trouble with you, Daniel, is that you just speak to your little hug boxes and your little echo chamber and you never expose yourself to other people's views.
You just don't listen to the people that you comment on.
That's your problem.
You know, if you actually listen to these people, then that could make an interesting podcast or something, you know?
But you don't, do you?
No, you just listen to these far-left sources like The Daily Showa and Christopher Campbell and Red Ice Radio and Nick Fuentes.
Yeah, you and your far-lefty friends, you know.
So then they move on.
And after Heimbach, you know, spews a bunch of nonsense like this, you know, Morton comes back on and he has his opinion and he's like, you know, one of the things that I found interesting was that the George Floyd protests, they were presented in the media as being, you know, largely just and, you know, like reasonable things and that we should be supporting and yet there's a big distinction between the protests like a few weeks earlier and
From the the reopen protests and those people were like considered like conspiracy theorists And you know they were not generally respected by the media, and there's this real double standard and Open your fucking eyes to the thing you know like yeah Yeah, like granted that I mean first of all when these people talk about the media what they mean is like nothing to the right of say like NBC right and
Like, because there is this right-wing ecosystem which had the exact opposite opinion of all of these things, of course, right?
But those don't count as, like, despite the fact that Tucker Carlson is the, like, number one, like, cable news source, he doesn't count as a mainstream media source.
He's fair and balanced, you see, you know?
Yeah, that's right.
The mainstream news sources are, you know, CNN, MSNBC, etc., etc., and the fact that they presented a narrative which was, I'm trying to say, accurate, But which was perceived as being biased in some way.
See, that is a travesty.
But certainly they would never call out like Sean Hannity, or Tucker Carlson, or One American News, or any one of a number of local news sources which presented all these things.
Like even fairly kind of liberal papers, there are reporters that I respect who, you know, kind of working kind of my local media markets, who did not treat these protests in a way that I thought was fair.
But who, you know, work for very mainstream news sources.
Like, you know, basically I saw 10 Seconds on NBC and I get to, like, blame that as being, like, the entirety of the, you know, like, media narrative with no systematic look at that, you know.
And again, what this is... And also, you know, the George Floyd protests were justified and reopening was a bad idea.
You know, it's like, you know, when I compare the way I was treated when I went for a walk in the park to the way I was treated when I went for a walk naked down the middle of the motorway.
It just shows that there's an institutionalized bias against nudist motorway walking.
And I mean, just, I mean, just again, I hate, just for posterity, for people listening to this who may not, like, remember the details.
Like, the whole thing that, like, people were talking about with the reopen protest was not that people are protesting like the governor of Michigan.
Like, that's a, you know, A, they were protesting without masks, they were crowding inside the, uh, the statehouse, and they were bringing, like, heavy weaponry.
They were bringing like AR-15s into like they were this was a clear show of force armed from like people with like militia connections and you had like you know and I don't like to kind of push on this because there are kind of like this this gets into kind of questionable things and like a lot of this was being astroturfed by like Betsy DeVos in connection and people connected to her and Yeah.
And there's none of that going on with the George Floyd protests.
People go like, Black Lives Matter is funded by George Soros, and big corporations get Black Lives Matter money to invest in diversity programs.
No, this is a very, very, very different thing.
This is not the same thing in the slightest.
If the protests were mainly started by and mainly featured, you know, massed hordes of armed Antifa thugs who were provably being funded by an evil Jewish conspiracy, then you might have something.
But the thing is, they're not.
I mean, if the DNC, if the Democratic National Committee, was like funding, you know...
I mean, imagine finishing that sentence.
It's how ridiculous it is, right?
Yeah, exactly.
If the DNC were funding, you know, like, massed anarchists to go out and, like, break store windows at a Target...
Or like at Starbucks, or like, you know, burn a Wendy's to the ground or whatever, you know.
And then it got treated on MSNBC as like, these are the new freedom fighters.
Burn that Wendy's down.
Like, you know, Rachel Maddow.
It's like, you know, putting her hand over her heart and like, you know, black fist in the air, fist pumping, you know, in terms of, you know.
But that's like, we expect that from like Fox News.
We expect that from our right-wing media.
And like, as bad as like the central liberal, centrist liberal media as like, kowtowing to power as it is.
Like, it doesn't do that.
It just doesn't.
You know.
No, the mainstream media manages reality to preserve the capitalist system.
The right-wing media just invents it, you know?
Right.
And we just accept this as normal, and our calibrations are off as a result.
Exactly.
And I mean, the whole thing is, you know, that we're kind of moving into this space in which, you know, what we... Again, it becomes just like both-siders, ultimately.
And again, this is a very, like, obvious thing that's going to happen where, again, we're going to come back to this over and over again when we talk about the Intellectual Dark Web over the next couple of weeks.
Moving on.
He starts bringing up this book by this guy, Hoffer, who, I have not read his book.
Eric Hoffer, I think is his name.
Morton does.
And this is someone who had kind of studied sort of, like, how movements form, how radical movements form back in the 50s and 60s.
Um, he was a well-known scholar, apparently, who is very, you know, kind of, uh, you know, seemed to be a very respected guy from, like, the little bit of Googling I did.
Um, and he talks about, like, how, you know, this kind of, like, radicalization process, and how these kind of movements form.
I'm not going to dig into this except that, again, this kind of feeds this kind of both sides of the narrative because a political scientist, if you read sort of political science and how elections work and how you sort of build an electorate to support the things that you want to support, these are techniques that you use that are value neutral.
It's just a set of tools.
That's how these kind of political science things work.
And so talking about the sociology of how sort of mass movements are formed out of like vanguardist movements or how this sort of radicalization, how you can kind of influence politics or you can influence sociopolitics through – like I find this to be – again, this is value neutral.
And just describing that like, well, you get a small group of people who are radicalized around a cause and they sort of form an in-group and out-group.
This doesn't really say anything about anything if you're trying to sort of judge the morality or the justification of the actual thing that they're fighting for ultimately.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's form, not content.
As we've said many, many times, which really should be like the real subtitle of the show, politics has content as well as form.
When you're focusing on form and you're not paying attention to content or context, you're just missing everything.
You're missing everything that's at all important.
And so, I did want to highlight that he does bring up somebody who I'd probably like to read.
Honestly, it sounds like an interesting book.
I haven't read it.
I'm not really going to respond to that, but I did want to bring it up again.
What purpose does this serve?
There's a far left and a far right, and they're both equally bad.
And you see, the far right is actual violent Nazis.
Vic Mackie is beyond the pale, okay?
And on the left-hand side, it's kids breaking windows.
So these are the confines.
Now, Matt Heimbach, he is within the confines.
We take the people in the black block who genuinely do stupid shit sometimes, because of course they do, because this is a world of human beings, so any cause is going to have people in it that have silly ideas and make mistakes.
We take the worst of those people, They don't even begin to compare to the venomous, toxic, evil, you know, human shit like Vic Mackey.
Right.
It doesn't even start to be comparable.
And I'm pretty sure he would consider you and me to be sort of outside the realm of reasonable conversation because, I mean, on this podcast, I've called William von Spronsen a hero.
I've called Taser V-16, standing up to the cops, like William von Spronsen, who I did see some indications that he may have been an abusive spouse in his past.
And so, you know, again, we can't we can't we can only judge people based on what we know about them.
And, you know, that's sort of one of those, like, ah, that sounds, uh, bad if that's true.
But, um, he worked to, uh, he lost, he failed, but he, he worked to, um, materially change the world to attack the systems of oppression against, uh, you know, uh, tortured brown children.
Um, and only hurt himself in the process.
And, uh, you know, I do consider him to be a hero for that.
And I'm not going to apologize for that.
And if that puts me beyond the pale because, like, Willem-Barnes Franssen did not decide to engage with a reasonable debate with ICE and the Customs Border Patrol, then so be it.
Absolutely, yeah.
We just... I mean, it's just... Here we are again discussing the absolute nonsense that is, uh, the false equivalency drawn.
Moving on here, they then kind of move into Morton asks Kaibak, so what's your opinion of Antifa?
So you spent a lot of time talking about sort of like the varieties of the far right in terms of like the sort of the militia movement and the...
You know where this is going.
Actually, you don't.
This is even more batshit than you think it is.
So you've talked about sort of the militia movement, you've talked about sort of the siege pillars, you've talked about sort of the alt-right and the white nationalist movement and sort of differentiating between those.
So what's your feeling of Antifa?
Here we go, we're entering the Stargate, everybody.
And so, Heimbach is against it, clearly, which, you know, I can only speak... So he's anti-Antifa?
He's anti-Antifa, yeah, I know.
He's anti-fat.
He's anti-fat.
Yeah, I know.
I can only speak to the – that speaks well to Antifa ultimately as a group, as a philosophy.
But he goes off and he starts talking about how like, well, the anti-fascist action logo was sort of the logo of the militant wing of the KPD in Germany, whereas the Three Arrows is the group of the Social Democrats.
Yeah.
in germany yeah and then you see the anti-fascists are kind of both standing there and they use those same logos kind of together and these actual organizations fought each other because like later in the thing the anti-fascist action were actually sort of like proto-stalinist or kind of full-fledged stalinists and so you've got anarchists working with stalinists and it's like some of us have learned things about politics since 1935 yeah
like i can like the three arrows logo which i do and not agree with social democracy.
We've learned things.
We can actually appropriate these logos for things in the 21st century, because the left actually learns things from their history, or tries to, and moves forward.
And we're not stuck in, like, the Jews are controlling the world bullshit.
I hate to have to argue this.
This seems like such basic shit, But the fact that this gets taken remotely seriously, it's like arguing from like logos and so there are all these ideologies and they just don't make sense together because like clearly there are these groups and they're using, they don't seem to understand and it all is meant to sort of portray as like all anti-fascist and all a bunch of like rich white kids who are kind of LARPing and don't really understand the actual thing that they're doing.
And it's just bullshit.
It's just bullshit.
You know what?
Firstly, yeah, it's form not content again.
It's playing around with form.
And it turns out symbols are socially constructed.
They're made by humans and therefore they're fungible and adaptable and they change with time.
Who knew?
And, you know, secondly, yes, there's going to be a lot of people in the anti-fascist movement who don't have The most perfect grasp of the intricacies of early 20th century German left-wing politics.
That's probably going to be a thing, and they probably might not understand why those symbols don't actually go together perfectly.
Not really the point, is it, at the moment?
No, not at all.
So I do have a clip on this purpose, and I think we can play it now, if that's OK with you.
OK.
Oh, this is about Karl Marx, just to be clear.
I guess my biggest critique would be You know, Marx said, you know, workers of the world unite, and Marxism is fundamentally about the unification.
of the working class and taking the means of production for the workers.
And it's not about, like, dudes wearing dresses and getting to use a woman's bathroom.
Like, it's not about abortion.
It's not about any of these, like, bizarre social issues that people want to bicker over about, like, the need to, like, force, like, a vegan diet on every person or whatever, right?
Like, all these social things have nothing to do with economics and the working class owning the means of production.
Have really dominated the thought, whether it's the Frankfurt School, which were leftist intellectuals who came to the United States after the rise of Hitler and went to Columbia and other universities, who set up for the 1960s radical movements, to the legacy of Antifa over the past 50 years.
I mean, they're allowed to commit acts of violence, especially against political opponents they disagree with, around the country and get away with it.
They're allowed to attack police and get away with it.
They're allowed to destroy property and businesses.
I'm going to separate that entirely from my thoughts on communities of color rising up in protest right now.
Anti-fascists are overwhelmingly white, not a lot of members of color traditionally, and, you know, based on studies that have been done in Europe and things like that, they're usually well-educated in terms of degrees, not necessarily sense, usually coming from, you know, middle class, upper, you know, rich backgrounds.
While there are working class members and, you know, not to paint all antifeminists with a broad brush, I've met some nice individuals that have had a good impact on me.
Most of them are now more involved in community organizing than anti-fascism and black bloc.
But yeah, like anti-fascism I think is just like a destructive temper tantrum in many ways of kind of the bourgeois elements of society that want to, you know, just kind of wantonly destroy things.
So, I could spend an hour taking this apart, to be clear.
Uh-huh.
The first thing I really wanted to note, and the reason that I pulled this clip in particular is, you know, you notice the first thing that he does is beat up on trans people.
Like, that's literally his first move, right?
Yeah.
You know, dudes in dresses going into a women's restroom.
Like, you know, clearly.
And this is part of why I've been kind of focused on the kind of transphobia issue lately, is that it is It's a very basic thing that a lot of these guys use as a weapon against, in order to, you know, sort of build their politics up.
Also, this vision of anti-fascists as overwhelmingly white, which certainly not in my experience, and not in my DMs, just to be clear.
Certainly not overly educated, like a lot of people.
It really is from all walks of life.
Now, a lot of the people who become prominent, who put their neck out there a little bit more, tend to be more white.
and tend to be more educated and have a few more resources.
And that's because the people who can afford to stick their necks out a little bit more tend to have a few more resources than the people who can't.
For what, if you have any understanding of sociology at all, are completely reasonable and understandable reasons.
He calls anti-fascists like kind of the rich bourgeois who just want to go out and break stuff.
I mean, he's essentially infantilizing anti-fascists.
And this is absolutely universal language among the far-right talking about Antifa.
This is what they always say about the people who actually are the most effective at opposing them, is to treat them as big, dangerous children, effectively, who are wealthy, who do not understand the travails of the working class.
And in other places, Morton even has done this in quite a few places and in this podcast he talks about, you know, I think that the problem is that these anti-fascists who want to go out there and confront the far right
Don't understand the idea of blowback and there's nothing that's more The idea that the people who put their bodies on the line directly to confront like violent fucking neo-nazis Don't understand the idea that they might hit back and don't understand the idea that there are consequences from Both their ideological opponents and their ideological opponents in the state.
This is like nonsense.
It's like How stupid do you have to be to believe this and to be taken seriously as like a reasonable person talking about these issues?
Sorry, please, please, like, your thoughts.
Well, no, I don't want to interrupt you, but it sounds... I don't know if it's meant this way or not, you can tell me, but it sounds like a veiled threat as well.
I mean, it sounds like they don't understand the concept of blowback.
That sounds almost like, you know, oh, nice antifa you've got here, be ashamed if something happened to it, wouldn't it?
It's like they're saying, you shouldn't be protesting us, because if you do, we're going to hit back.
That's what it sounds like to me.
Sure, I mean, you know, it's kind of, I mean, certainly the, you know, certainly the kind of overt fascist and, you know, when they kind of talk about that, they certainly mean that in that way.
I think there are a lot of people, and I put myself in this category, who have long suspected that Jesse Martin is sort of like aiming light upon light at doing some kind of like Antifa CBE.
And sort of using the tools of the state of the disposal to, you know, like, de-radicalize anti-fascists in some way, and use the force of the law enforcement to combat anti-fascism when they can.
I love the bit where Antifa are just allowed to assault people who disagree with their political opinions, i.e.
Nazis.
Yeah.
We just have a different political opinion.
I just believe that all the Jews should be genocided.
I don't understand why you get mad at me about that and want to punch me in the face.
I just don't get it.
Why shouldn't I just be allowed to have my opinion alongside your opinion?
My opinion just happens to be that we should murder all the Jews, but that's just an opinion like everybody else's.
I don't see why I should be singled out for that.
And the idea that, like, anti-fascists, like, don't get arrested and don't, you know, suffer, uh, you know, legal penalties.
Like, I know a number of people and, you know, look, I don't do street activism.
I'm just, you know, I'm not, I'm not claiming that.
And certainly, you know, but I know a large number of people who have had, you know, kind of legal issues around their activism and to take that on willingly because the laws are unjust, you know.
And, I mean, this whole thing, this whole idea of, like, well, these people were breaking the law, it does, you know, sort of presuppose this idea that, like, well, there is no such thing as an unjust law.
There is no such thing as, like, unjust social structures.
You know, we have to work within the system or else you're not legitimate, you know.
And that's the thing, like, you know, the Nazis, the white nationalists who are looking to work within something like the political structure are looking to, like, what, you know, what Mike Enoch wants to do effectively is to take control of the U.S.
government.
Like, that's sort of the goal, right?
The system of hierarchy is already there.
What he wants to do is to use that hierarchy against his own political enemies, right?
Whereas those of us on the left want to dismantle that so no one gets to have that hierarchy again.
Yeah.
Right?
And so these two things, like, there are different tactics that must be used in these two, you know, ideas, right?
And so the idea of saying to an anarchist, and I don't think either one of us considers ourselves an anarchist, the idea of saying to an anarchist, well, you just need to vote.
I mean, it's nonsense, it's nonsense.
Nice form and content again.
Right, right.
And fascism always tries to use the laws of the bourgeois democracy against itself to take it out.
I just found that clip incredibly confusing.
I mean, firstly, he sort of meanders around and doesn't really get to a point that I can see.
I mean, maybe you can explicate it for me.
What's he actually... is he actually saying something like, you know, whereas Marxism has this focus on economic issues, you know, the working class, Well, actually, what he says is that it's about taking the means of production for the workers, which is wrong.
Marxism is about the workers themselves taking it, but never mind, I'm nitpicking now.
Is his point sort of, Marxism has this proper economistic focus?
On taking property for the working class and sorting them out economically.
Whereas in contrast to this, we have this illegitimate focus on social issues like trans people, etc.
by these kids who are not actually Marxists.
They're actually of the bourgeoisie.
Is that what he's saying?
Because that sounds like an odd critique for somebody who's basically a Nazi.
Right, or who was a Nazi ten minutes ago if he wants to.
I mean, essentially what he's doing is he's sort of making this sort of vulgar class reductionist quote-unquote, this kind of vulgar Strasserite kind of critique.
Yeah.
Which seems to be sort of like where he's landing on this.
And I mean, frankly, you know, the thing that you kind of run into is like you could see this same critique, like Eric Stryker will say this same thing.
Amy Therese sort of makes these same kind of comments.
You get this on like, you know, Stupid Poll.
This is kind of all over the place.
And so, listening to this and kind of re-listening to it, it may very well be that Maynard Heimbach has moved beyond, you know, kind of overt white nationalism and has like moved beyond the idea of like a white ethnostate and has moved into this, you know, kind of class reductionist, strasserite kind of politic.
Because you're absolutely right.
That's essentially what he's trying to argue.
And I know I kind of pulled that clip out of context.
And so what he's doing is trying to contrast like this sort of, again, this vulgar Marxism, frankly, with, you know, this vulgar idea of identity politics of, you know, like, first of all, he kind of points out like, well, you know, It's not, I mean, sorry, but it's not even vulgar Marxism.
It's simply a misunderstanding of what Marxism is.
Right, right.
No, no, no, not at all.
I was hoping I can make steam kind of come out of your ears with that clip.
Well, kind of, you know, but it's not anything I haven't heard before.
Right.
I mean, that's the other thing is that it's such like, you know, like he's acting like I've got like these big, deep ideas and the ideas are like, Antifa is violent and also like we should stop thinking so much about like these bourgeois gender and identity issues and really kind of like talk about Class and economic issues instead.
And ultimately, I mean, you know, just to kind of, like, wrap to the end here, the thing that he's ultimately saying is, like, we should have, like, infrastructure programs where, like, you know, we kind of come out and, like, everybody works together to, like, train people to weld and build bridges and that sort of thing, as opposed to, you know, caring about, you know, transgender bathrooms and abortion and all this kind of thing.
And it's, like, You know, A, whenever you say we should stop fighting about, like, some issue, what you mean is, like, we should stick with the status quo on this issue.
Like, that's kind of what you mean, right?
It means you should stop complaining about your oppression.
Right.
Because I would be perfectly fine if we would stop arguing about trans issues.
I think, you know, like, hey, Trans people get treated as like full-fledged human beings by on every level of society.
Transition surgery should be available for free to those who want it.
There should be excellent counseling opportunity and you know kind of whatever trans people want like yeah yeah give in to every demand from the trans community and I'll tell you what they're gonna stop arguing about this issue!
But that's not really what he's saying.
He's saying shut the fuck up and we don't care about listening to your issues anymore.
And I mean also like, you know, trans people are part of the working class.
Women are part of the working class.
Like abortion is a working class issue because women Want to in many cases need to work and also like, you know, if you were to make you know Child labor and household labor a wage labor within society You would have less abortion because people could afford to have children Like, you know, all these things are intimately connected to the economic issues that you claim you want to focus on So really what you're saying is I actually want women to be oppressed.
I want trans people to be oppressed.
I Um, you know, I want all of these things.
Um, I don't want to have to fight about it anymore because, like, really we need to get together and we need to, like, build more bridges.
I agree we need to build more bridges.
I agree we need to rebuild infrastructure.
I agree, like, broadly with, um, all of these kinds of, like, you know, but, and again, to jump to the end here, you know, where they're, where they kind of land is, or where Honeybug lands is, you know, we've all just got to work together and have a conversation about how to solve these problems.
About how to get together and, like, build, like, a better, Society for all of us and like the answer that question is fucking Bernie Sanders, right?
Like you're essentially saying like well We need like free health care and we need better infrastructure and we need like basic precepts of social democracy and you know what there was somebody out there calling for that and this was not like you're like centrist candidate who Appealed to this was like the quote-unquote super far-left person and I'm not sitting here to like Bernie has problems and I'm not trying to like You know, do the thing.
I'm not Bernie posting and alienating everybody, you know.
But I'm saying, like, to look at, like, American politics in 2020 and to think, like, well, if the far left and the far right went away and, like, the center left and the center right could get together, we could make, like, realistic decisions about, like, what kinds of, like, policies that would be better.
And yet all of the policies that I support are actually the ones that were supported by the fringiest of the fringy who I would consider actually like vaguely center-left um candidate in the most who was right there who's been pushing for this for the last you know five years on the national stage has made like enormous progress and so like if you want to build a better world stop talking to Jesse Morton and go join the IWW or something
I mean, you know, like, you know, there's, there's, and it's just, the idea that, like, this is the perspective you're bringing in, this is the thing that you're saying, and this is, like, your, like, new ideology that you're trying to spread, and this, and the way you're trying to do that is, like, punch Antifa.
Like, you are missing the fucking point.
Period.
You know, like.
Yeah, look, I mean, you know, Bernie's politics is not my politics.
You know, he's a reformist social democrat.
It's pretty weak piss water from my point of view.
Right, agreed.
I'm not disagreeing.
I know, I know that.
But the point is, right, that's basically all these people have.
You know, that's basically all Matt Heimbach has.
He has basic reformist social democracy with, you know, racism and bigotry stuck on top.
He basically just wants, you know, some tweaks and some reforms and some social programs and stuff like that.
He just wants them for white people, you know?
So if you could just get past that and cope with the fact that Bernie was making some efforts towards being more inclusive on racial issues and stuff like that, then you could have your social democratic reformism that slightly improves the economic condition of workers, you know, if you just accept that it's all workers instead of just white men.
You could have that.
Right, right.
And I mean, I think even in this sort of like sense in which like, you know, we're sort of working on the, you know, at least the provisional sense that maybe Matt Heimbach has decided to not be, you know, overtly racist anymore.
Even then, like this idea of like, well, we've got to kind of come together.
I mean, you're talking to the wrong people, ultimately, if like what you're like, what you really need to be doing is calling out Fox News and Tucker Carlson and the like demagogues on the right.
You need to be calling out Sean Hannity.
You need to be attacking those people.
Those are your fundamental enemies.
Because I guarantee you, your normie liberals are totally going to get behind a jobs program for poor people.
But, if he has moved away from overt white nationalism, That's what he's moved to.
He's moved to Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson territory, hasn't he?
Because he wants to carry on bashing Antifa, bashing Black Lives Matter.
He might want to say, I'm not a white nationalist anymore, but basically he wants black people to shut up and put up with what they've already got and not ask for any more.
So, basically, what it looks like to me is that, like you were saying, Jesse Morton's project looks like it's trying to bring in sort of ex-white nationalists into this anti-antifa politics.
Well, that's It's still reactionary politics.
It's still politics which is against social movements for change from below.
So, it looks like what's happening here is that these two are representative of a drift away from white nationalism, you know, sort of overt fringe fascism, into this kind of authoritarian, pro-police, anti-Black Lives Matter, anti-antifa Sort of official fascism that basically Trump represents and Trump's gonna run on in the election, right?
I mean they do they do have like sort of criticism of Trump and in particular Morton, you know It kind of calls out Trump as being this kind of like sure they might not like Trump in particular But it's it's a systemic thing ultimately a symptom, right?
I mean, I just want to become to be clear about that because I don't know how clear that was there but I mean, you know, it's it's You know, and again, Morton makes, like, kind of big progressive noises the way a lot of people in this kind of, like, quote-unquote radical centrism kind of thing do.
I mean, again, I found a lot of echoes between, like, sort of this intellectual dark web stuff and what kind of Morton seems to be pushing, which we'll kind of explore a little bit in the next couple of episodes.
But again, Tucker Carlson does that.
Tucker Carlson will stop in the middle of his anti-immigrant screed to say, it's not about immigrants being nasty, most of them are nice.
And don't smear me as a racist just because I oppose immigration.
Right.
Well, I mean, Martin didn't even go so far as to talk about structural and systemic racism and the need to combat those things.
God, there's so much in this episode I could go through, and I really don't have time to do that here.
He has this idea that income inequality in the United States is driven by the War on Terror, when income and wealth inequality, if you look at the graphs, and these are particularly normie economic graphs, it starts around 1974.
Which, in case you, like, missed your calendar, that's 25 years before 9-11.
You know, certainly we spend a lot of money on our military, but that money is ultimately, like, it funds itself through, you know, kind of the oil industry and, you know, money is kind of fake regardless.
There are lots of problems to oppose.
uh the war in iraq and you know certainly the economic cost is one of them but like it's not like the primary driver of wealth and income inequality in the united states i don't have no idea where he even gets that you know but he kind of talks about that he brings it up like two or three times it's kind of it's amazing um that's bizarre yeah Yeah.
At one point, this is worth noting, I don't have the audio of this, so we're going to rush through this just to kind of get to the end of the episode because we are getting close to two hours here, but Matt Heimbach calls, in terms of like the closest he gets to sort of like describing sort of his like sort of like what he thinks No!
should happen politically is that he wants to sort of like bring in politicians who will work for like the poor white working class the poor black working class etc and he brings up huey long oh christ and he says probably one of the greatest americans in my personal opinion he helped the poor so the poor's and the blacks and the whites during segregation and And like Huey Long, I mean historians kind of go back and forth a bit on Huey Long.
Let's just say he has a mixed record, alright?
Let's just say, you know, yes, helps the economic impact on poor white people, went after the big oil companies mostly by feeding the profits to slightly smaller oil companies.
And in the name of consolidating his own power through demagoguery of the people around him, and consolidating a corrupt system that lasted up until the early 1990s at least, and was part of the thing that made David Duke possibly governor of Louisiana in 1992.
If you kind of look at sort of the history of like how that corrupt system sort of influenced things.
Um, just, just, just, you know, on the basis, yes, improved the economic situation of a lot of people in Louisiana.
Agreed.
Not an uncomplicated figure in the slightest.
And certainly not one of the greatest Americans.
And the fact that like Heinbach just throws that in as like a random aside is...
Yeah.
It's remarkable.
I think that's incredibly telling as well.
It is, it is.
Let's move on.
I heard that.
I think I had a cup of coffee in my hand and just kind of did the slight where you almost dropped the cup of coffee in the moment where I was like, you know, I think we should do a look at Huey Long, one of the greatest Americans, and you just kind of go like, what?
Yeah, I almost did a double take, like a spit take in that moment.
I do have one more clip and this is Heimbach talking about far-left social programs and his vision for the future and who he thinks is not going to get on board for his vision of a broadly social democratic idea.
We're gonna play this clip and talk about it and then wrap up because there's so much more in this fucking episode.
It's ridiculous and I really don't want to just keep reviewing and take a walk on the right side but it's hilarious and like I felt the need because they're legitimately responding.
They do respond like to the like you know what you call He called George Lincoln Rockwell commander.
And it's like, well, he was a commander in the Navy.
Like, that's his rank.
Shouldn't we call him by his rank?
And it's like, you've completely missed the point of the criticism.
It's not that that's not his rank.
It's that you're giving, you know, a Holocaust-denying racist Nazi douchebag who did as much to, like, found neo-Nazism in America as any other single human being, you're not treating him like a giant piece of shit, the way you should be.
And If you're not treating him like a giant piece of shit, I kind of think you like him.
What's your problem with me calling Hitler the Fuhrer?
That was his official title.
I mean, I'm just talking about the Man of Steel, you know, this great leader who did so much to help the people of the Soviet Union.
That's right.
Alright, so we're going to play this clip and I think there's something that should jump out at you pretty quickly here.
I think we need to ignore the very loud voices on the left and the right, right?
And basically the politicians.
Just turn them off.
Forget that they really exist in the media.
Because the majority of people, I think, across color and creed and age, and all these things that divide us, I think most people really can agree on improvements we'd like to see in our system to make our country better, to make our lives better, and to make it more fair, and to make it more just.
I don't think you're going to get a James Mason-worshiping Atomwaffen member to agree with a public's work project To get, you know, Muslim Americans, Catholic Americans, Jewish Americans, white Americans, black Americans, so on and so forth, learning how to fix a bridge or weld and doing it together.
On the flip side, I don't think you're going to find a radical leftist who's going to agree with any sort of social programs going to help poor, impoverished, and working class white Americans as equals.
Not in a superior way, but as equals with other groups of people.
I don't think you're really going to find that either, so let's forget these super loud voices, which is so hard because some dude with a tweet or a girl with a tweet that has a lot of opinions and can set off this firestorm that can cost you your job and ruin your life and stuff like that.
They seem to have a lot of power, but I don't think there's that many of them.
What stands out to you there, Jack?
Well, I mean, so many things.
Firstly, I love the stuff at the end that sounds like a certain Harper's Letter that got lots of signatories recently.
The bemoaning of Twitter mobs and cancel culture and stuff like that.
How dare people on Twitter be angry?
How dare they give my mentions?
How dare they talk back to me?
But it sounds like, I mean there's a couple of things jump out, I'm probably missing the thing that you thought would jump out mainly, but it sounds like a kind of dunder-headed centrism, and I love the idea that sort of basically we can all agree on the need for these social programs, you know.
Can we?
Really?
Is that the case?
That everybody, apart from the far left and the far right, all agree on the need for these... Sounds like some sort of new deal that they're proposing.
You know, we should be building new bridges and shit like that.
And everybody agrees upon the need for stuff like that, right?
Yeah, maybe we could add some environmental stuff into that too and call it a green new deal.
I'm sure everybody would be on board.
Everybody will be on board with that, yeah.
And the other thing that jumps out at me is the idea that the radical left will be against social programs that help the white working class if it treats them as equals.
The implication being, of course, that at the moment the white working class are treated as inferiors.
All they want is for the white working class to be treated as equals but we on the radical left of course will be against the white working class being treated as equals you know getting the same social programs as everybody else because we are dead set on trans people and black people and stuff like that all being treated as this continuing to be treated as superiors the way they already are is that What's being said there?
I don't know what the, like, being treated as equals thing.
Like, that seems like...
That's the only sense I can make of that.
There are a couple of different readings I kind of had for that.
Like, maybe he's saying, like, we should support the white working class and me as an ex-white nationalist.
I mean, we treat them as equals and not as superiors.
Like, if you think that I may be being a white supremacist, that was kind of my original read of it.
I think really what he's... Yeah, but that doesn't work if he's saying the radical left would be against that, though, does it?
Right.
I think my other read was... Of course, the other problem is, what do they mean by the radical left?
I mean, do they mean, you know, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
They mean me!
They mean us, right?
You know, with the radical left.
Do they?
Or do they mean Nancy Pelosi?
I mean, who the fuck knows?
You know, the idea that... That's the bit that gets me.
It's like, the radical left is not going to support universal programs that will support the white working class.
That's exactly what the quote-unquote radical left...
Again, I might to kind of bring Bernie back up then, who is a reformist, center-left, not-my-politics, not-your-politics, not-at-all sort of guy.
Again, he has his problems.
He may not have even been the best candidate for, you know, whatever.
But this is exactly what Bernie Sanders was supporting the whole time.
And he was the radical, loony-left candidate, right?
And look, I know anarchists who would never, like, vote for a candidate for any office at all.
I know, like, radical communists who, like, phone-banked for Bernie Sanders as, like, this is the one chance we have for someone who is, like, vaguely going to work in our interest.
And Bernie Sanders ran an entire campaign on things like Medicare for All and on these kinds of universal programs, which would enormously help the white world in class.
So, like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Exactly, what the fuck?
The only other answer I could get is, like, maybe he's saying, like, well, the white working class is just automatically racist, and we know what these, like, Antifa thugs, they're kind of out there, and they don't want to, like, let people who are racist have jobs.
And so they had to be treated as equals.
Like you can be racist and still have a job.
Like I would totally support my social democracy for, even for racists.
I have said that on many, many occasions.
I'm, you know, look again, gay people get to have a job, racists get to have a job, or at least like UBI or whatever, like we can talk about it.
Like everybody I know who is on the quote unquote radical fringe left agrees with that basic principle.
You, Universal programs are universal.
This is the point, you know?
The people who argue against that are exactly like you're sort of like blue wave center left like rich democrat suburbanite people who don't want to give money to red states because they see them as intellectually or morally deficient or whatever.
And you know who opposes those people more than anybody?
The radical left!
Oh god.
I believe in something called the principle of charity, or the principle of coherence.
It's got several names.
But it's basically the idea, and this is just standard procedure.
This is basic philosophy.
I learned this in Introduction to Logic.
You know about this.
When you read somebody, you should try to read them in a way where they make sense.
Because you're most likely to be getting their intention if you read them in a way where what they're saying makes sense.
And the only way I can make that make sense is if They think white people, the white working class, are currently treated as inferiors and they think the radical left will be against social programs that will benefit the white working class because those social programs would involve treating them as equals with everybody else and the radical left is committed to treating the white working class as lesser or of less importance than the black working class or, you know, gay people or trans people or whatever.
That's the only way I can make that fit together.
That is a completely reasonable reading of that.
I listen to that whole segment... And that's me being charitable!
Yeah, no, I listen to that whole segment many times, and I... I mean... You know, and I really didn't give you any of Jesse Morton in that, you know, and Jesse Morton does like to just sort of ramble on for a while.
Like, look, I realize that I kind of do the same thing sometimes.
I just sort of like, you know, talk on and sort of talk around ideas and, you know, kind of circle back or kind of whatever.
And I get that I'm not the most engaging person on a microphone who's ever existed, and so I give people a lot of credit.
I do not understand what sentences Jesse Morton is constructing on a regular basis.
Oh dear.
Shouldn't laugh.
And I am certain that is not his goal in terms of his podcast.
Um, but yeah, no, it would be really nice if I kind of understood if Jesse Morton would speak in like more simple declarative sentences.
But I think it fits his purpose to sort of be vague, so that he doesn't have to actually be nailed down to any kind of particular idea.
I think it benefits him to sort of like not really kind of talk about his own ideas or his own, you know, kind of perspective.
And to let other people speak for him, in a way.
Anyway, there is so much more to that episode, but leave me going for two hours and I am done talking about this.
Oh man.
There might be some follow-up on this one, you never know.
Well, who knows?
Episode 7, I didn't see it today, maybe it showed up when I wasn't looking.
Um, you know, they are gonna talk about white power and I'm sure that's gonna be a doozy and so we might just have like Heimblatt and Morton episodes until You know, I want to be clear here Like, um, I have not had any personal contact with Morton except for the public conversation I had with him I asked him to put me in touch with Matt Heimbach, and he never said yes, he never said no.
He kind of invited me to come on one of his shows with Matt, and to have a group conversation, which I'm sure would go swimmingly, because that would just be a way of treating me as the bad guy, ultimately.
So, Matt, Heimbach, you know how to find me.
I'm easy to find.
I would love to have a chat with you.
I have no interest in having a detailed, nuanced conversation with Jesse Morton or anyone else kind of involved in that organization about any of these topics.
I would really like it if they would just sort of clarify their fucking point.
But I think what I'm trying to demonstrate here is that they have no answer to the fact that, like, they're ultimately sort of working to platform these kind of far-right ideas, and ultimately all they're doing is just punching left.
They're punching the people who are, again, anti-fascists who are the most effective force against the rise of fascism in the United States and around the world today.
You know, it is like people sitting.
And I mean, Heibach even sort of obliquely references this.
I mean, he says like it was anti-fascists who, you know, kind of talked to me and helped to kind of, you know, bring me out of like my former beliefs.
Right.
And that's part of what anti-fascists do.
Anti-fascists do research.
Anti-fascists do, like, doxing.
Anti-fascists, like, you know, like, do all kinds of, you know, the idea that it's just, you know, throwing Molotov cocktails or whatever, like, that's, you know, that's missing the end.
I mean, it's got to be deliberate on the part of Heimbach, ultimately.
It's got to be, it's got to be a, you know, like, he knows better than that, and so he knows kind of which, you know, side of the bread is, which side of the bread is buttered, right?
Yeah.
And I have no doubt that, I mean, Jeff Shoup has no, who's also a part of Light Upon Light, has no pleasant things to say about anti-fascists or about the recent protests.
And we could have done an entire episode just on Jeff Shoup's tweets lately, because they have been really amazing.
Who knows, maybe if we get desperate enough to not talk about American History X, we'll get around to Jeff Shoup's tweets.
No, please, let's not do that.
But, like, he goes out of his way to punch Antifa, you know, rhetorically, on a regular basis, and, you know, it's like, you know, like, that's that organization, that's what they do, you know.
You can be super far-right, you can be a white nationalist, so long as you're not preaching overt race war, you're part of the fold, but if you actually oppose people who support white nationalism, then you're the bad guy.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
This podcast is dedicated to Taserface.
Absolutely.
You are awesome, sir.
You are awesome.
And we should tweet this at him.
Please, everybody, tweet Dazerface16 with this podcast link.
No, please don't.
Please don't.
He has better things to do.
But yeah, this podcast goes out to Dazerface.
Thank you.
Okay, and that was episode 59 of I Don't Speak German.
Thank you ever so much for listening to this extra long episode.
We promise they won't be this long, usually.
Somehow this just turned into an epic.
I'm really happy with this, actually.
I think this is one of our best episodes ever, personally.
I really enjoyed this.
But yeah, I hope you managed to make it this far, listeners.
And if you did, bless you.
So, you can find us in the usual places, and we appreciate all the help you can give us by spreading the word, retweeting, sharing, telling people about us, and maybe even toddling over to our Patreons and helping us out.
It genuinely does help us to make this show.
This show is 100% listener-funded.
We have complete editorial independence, and that's very important to us.
And your help is just enormously appreciated.
But as I say, if you can't help us that way, you can help us by spreading the word.
That's, you know, in listening, that's just as good.
Thank you ever so much.
No, absolutely.
I'll just add, you know, my wife is out of work at least until September because she works for a school.
And COVID is definitely kind of throwing a lot of things up in the air.
And so that little bit of extra money definitely helps us out quite a bit.
And so thank you to all of my Patreon subscribers for sure.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, without wishing to sound like I'm trying to morally blackmail you, the, you know, the help and support, you know, not just monetary, but in terms of friendship and kind words that I've had, it's just been incredibly meaningful.
So, thank you so much for all of that.
And, yeah, thanks for supporting the project in any and every way that you do.
And we'll be back, hopefully, next week for episode 60.
Episode 60!
Can you believe it?
And it will be the first of a two-parter on the Weinstein Brothers.
Not, uh, not the ones who created Miramax.
Not those ones.
Not those ones, no.
Please do not make me do that.
Not those awful Weinstein Brothers.
The other awful Weinstein Brothers.
The other who are, in their own way, even worse than those Weinstein Brothers.
Which is worse?
Like, Global Empire of, like, fucking Actresses Against Their Will?
Or working for Peter Thiel?
Oh yeah, that seems kind of a wash.
It's not immediately obvious.
It's not, it's really not.
I mean that legitimately, not even to belittle the crimes of Harvey Weinstein.
No.
But yeah, no.
So yeah, so in the next two we're gonna be doing first Brett Weinstein and then Eric Weinstein.
And it's kind of like a two-parter because they kind of go together, but there's enough material.
There's definitely enough material for two full, probably not this long, but pretty long episodes.
So look forward to that.
I've been suffering through listening to these douchebags talk.
They are both completely insufferable.
So please tune in to the next two.
I would appreciate it.
Like the man said, we've suffered for our art.
Now it's your turn.
Yes, indeed.
That was I Don't Speak German.
Thanks for listening.
We're on iTunes and show up in most podcast catches.
You can find Daniel's Twitter, along with links to pretty much everything he does, at at Daniel E Harper.
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