Bowing to necessity, this week Daniel and Jack talk about the Boogaloo, the shortcomings of the current discussion around it, and the reality. CONTENT WARNING Notes/Links: Bundyville Podcast https://www.opb.org/news/article/bundyville-occupation-podcast/ Robert Evans; Jason Wilson: The Boogaloo Movement Is Not What You Think https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/05/27/the-boogaloo-movement-is-not-what-you-think/ Robert Evans guests on Qanon Anonymous, on the Boogaloo Boys https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-qanon-anonymous-30956096/episode/episode-96-the-boogaloo-boys-feat-63994902/
Hello and welcome to I Don't Speak German, the anti-fascist podcast in which I, Jack Graham, he, him, and my friend Daniel Harper, he, him, have conversations about the far-right's conversations.
Every episode comes with a big content warning.
It's fine if you don't understand the labour theory of value, don't then lecture me about it.
Don't tell me it's wrong if you don't know anything about it.
I'm fine with you not knowing anything about it, but don't pretend that you...
I understand the two-minute version of the labor theory of value, and that's enough to know that I know more than any liberal ever will.
I can describe it in a few sentences.
I don't claim to know it as well as you do, obviously.
But I know enough to crush any fascist, and that's enough for me for right now.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, well, if value comes from labour, what if you make something that's useless?
Does that make sense?
No.
Believe it or not, he did actually consider that point.
It turns out capital is longer than four paragraphs?
Yeah, yeah.
It turns out that this guy who, whatever you think of him, was a very intelligent chap, with a Doctor of Philosophy and everything.
He did actually give some thought to, what if people put work into doing something useless?
That did cross the desk at some point.
I can't even believe you could even get to that point and ask that question.
That seems like a sub-bottom tier point to make, to me.
But maybe it's just, you know... Well, it's like, you know, the a priori assumption is that it's wrong.
So the first thing that you run into when you think about it, I mean, don't mean you, but you know, the person who goes into it like this, the a priori assumption is that it's wrong, so they think about it for a second without knowing anything about it, and the first thing that pops up, of course, When you ponder something called the Labour Theory of Value, it's, well, not all work is useful.
But to then assume that you've cracked it, you know, like, ah, I've discovered the...
I do feel like it's sort of the challenges to libertarianism, which are sort of like, but who will build the roads?
But I feel like the question of who will build the roads is a reasonable question for certain forms of libertarianism, because there is no form of libertarianism that is too absurd to not be held by someone, right?
Yeah, well look, I mean, I went into studying the Austrian school with a pretty strong bias to, you know, to them being wrong, right?
Right, right.
I did look into it.
I didn't just say, yeah, they're wrong.
No, no.
Well, what is this whole project but as an attempt to try to understand them as they understand themselves, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And these people are far more stupid than Murray Rothbard.
I mean, Murray Rothbard is pretty...
pretty fucking stupid but you know well you know Rothbard you know he was he was not i'm not stupid i'm so you know what i'm trying to i mean i'm not trying to yeah this is this is a complicated one because i despise Murray Rothbard and everything he stood for but he was not a fool and some of his certainly his earlier work is not as, you know, it's not as dumb as we would like it to be, let's put it that way.
And the same is certainly true of Hayek.
I mean, I think Mises is pretty much a complete charlatan, but Hayek is a genuine intellectual, whatever else you can say about him, you know, but.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of libertarian.
This is kind of relevant, I think, actually, isn't it?
This thing about libertarians, if we're talking about the boogaloo.
I think I think we'll we'll get into libertarians here shortly.
Maybe you'll use some of this in the in the intro.
It could be a cold open, yeah.
Could be.
Who knows?
You do, by the time this airs.
And the listener as well, when they hear this.
When they're listening to it, yeah.
When they listen to it, yeah.
They'll know whether we use this audio or not.
Professional podcasting.
Letting people in on our process is kind of the key.
It's how we maintain the audience.
I think people mainly tune into this show for just the craft.
I think that's...
People really admire how well put together and professionally edited and produced it is.
Yeah, that's it.
Such professional audio production capability and professional hosting as well.
Absolutely.
Yeah, going in very well prepared, you know.
Ultimately, we're NPR hosts who are just slumming in on this podcast.
That's the level of professional training we have.
It's like an hourglass over here.
Yeah, I'm a temporarily embarrassed NPR host.
BBC presenter.
BBC Newsnight, yeah, that's me.
I'm the next Emily Maitlis.
Yes, but this is- I thought you were going to be Ash Sakaar in an orange lolly in a park.
Oh god, what the- I mean, did you- I did, I did!
What the actual fuck?
Any excuse to go after a communist woman of colour, right?
Well, I mean, yeah, obviously that's the subtext, isn't it?
They have special loathing for certain people, you know, and it's... Ash Sarkar is one of them, surprisingly.
I can't think why.
And she looks so adorable in that photo as well.
I don't even like orange lollipops, but I was like, yeah, that looks like a nice time.
I'm there for that.
Yeah, that looks like a good time.
Hanging out with Ash Sarkar in the park, eating ice lollies.
Yeah, I could do that.
I'd probably end up having a political argument with her, but it would be a fun political argument.
It would be much better than the ones we'd have with the fucking Nazis.
Absolutely.
We'd argue over, you know, Marx's fragment on the machine in the Grundrisse and what it means, but, you know, it'd be amiable.
And we have our ice lollies.
But this is I Don't Speak German, episode 57, I think.
There's that professionalism again, everybody.
And I think we're going to be winging it a bit.
Well, I think we already are, as you can hear.
But we're going to be talking kind of from a feeling of obligation, I think.
About the Boogaloo and about how it's kind of... Boogaloo is kind of having its incel moment, isn't it?
You remember a few years ago when suddenly everybody in the mainstream found out about incels and it was like, oh, incels!
Look at this!
There's this thing!
Incels!
Incels, everybody!
Incels, incels, incels!
Suddenly kind of the mainstream's having a bit of a moment of a similar type about the Boogaloo.
Yeah, it turns out that when people show up to protests during the middle of a pandemic with long rifles and Hawaiian shirts and military garb, usually in expertly used, usually in complete bullshit ways, The mainstream media has some big question marks and they go to the quote-unquote experts who give them mostly useless information and only muddy the waters.
And so I kind of thought, I think this is the fourth episode that we've done that has the word boogaloo in the title, and I don't even consider myself like an expert on sort of the militia movements from which the boogaloo, you know, comes.
And so I don't really like to cover these things here, but I feel like it's kind of a necessity.
Like everyone that I know who kind of covers these materials has felt the need to do a Twitter thread or to do something to talk about like sort of the issues surrounding this right now.
So why not skip away from the thing that I was already working on for a week and talk about the Boogaloo for an hour.
So that's what we're gonna do.
Yes, indeed.
Anything to buy time, Daniel.
Anything to avoid thinking about Mikey and Ike in TRS a little bit longer.
That's the key.
Absolutely, yeah.
No, I mean, originally this episode was going to be, like, another part of our discussion about Episode 52, really, wasn't it?
Because we did... I mean, you did Episode 52, which was a great episode.
And then we kind of had a little discussion about 52, which hasn't actually been doing terribly well in the old download charts, I'm afraid.
I think it's because I gave it the rather unappetising title Afterword to Episode 52, which people are obviously looking at that and thinking, oh, I don't need to bother with that.
But I actually think that was quite a good episode.
I think we touched on some interesting stuff.
But we didn't get around to talking about anything like as much as I wanted to.
And one of the things we didn't really get around to talking about as much as we should have done, maybe, is the issue of trans people and Nazis' attitudes to them.
And I think we kind of identified that as something we haven't touched on enough.
So the original plan for this episode was for us to go to that.
But we've... I mean, not from any lack of... I mean, I'm eager to talk about this, but this Boogaloo thing has kind of got in the way, hasn't it?
Because, as I say, from a kind of feeling of obligation, we feel like we do need to touch upon this.
Well, initially my plan was to kind of do, oh, we'll do 15 minutes on this and then kind of move into the real episode.
We'll just kind of do it as a little intro bit.
And then it turns out, like, well...
Actually, it kind of requires maybe a little bit more time than I was going to give it.
So we'll do a chat about it.
Yeah.
So I do have just kind of a brief announcement or statement here at the beginning of the episode before we get into the Boogaloo proper.
Not to derail the conversation, but particularly since the Minneapolis protests started, going back for a while, particularly since the Minneapolis protests started, I've been getting A ton of DMs a ton of some email less email a little more kind of kind of DMS from people Asking for information and usually it's you know a couple a day if not more than that of People you know all kinds of questions I get all kinds of weird questions people share all kinds of things in the my DMS and
That you really shouldn't.
If Richard Spencer ever subpoenas me for, like, a civil lawsuit because I called him a dickhead, all of that is legally... I have to give that to him if that happens, so be careful.
Like, you know, really?
So, you know, don't start talking about drugs and violence in my DMs.
I'm not even gonna read it.
Seriously.
I'm really not gonna start.
I'm really not gonna read it.
But that said, I get a lot of, like, requests for I live in such and such area, I'm interested in kind of what you might know about, you know, people who might be organizing in this area.
And the reality of the thing is, I don't know much about, like, sort of hyper-local groups.
Really anywhere.
And the reason for that is, like, that's not what I do.
I cover kind of the bigger picture movement and sort of the ideology and the propaganda that's produced by major players.
And believe it or not, like, anti-fascist groups who are on the ground in, say, Minneapolis or Columbus, Ohio or whatever, Do not, like, email me a list of the people that they're following me.
You know, like, it's just not a thing.
Like, I don't have that kind of relationship.
For a lot of reasons of, like, you know, I'm kind of this weirdo journalist that, um, and anti-fascist groups don't necessarily want to share their information with me.
They put out their information in their own way.
Yeah.
And that's great.
That's each of us doing the thing that we do, right?
But when you send me an email that says, like, I'm looking for information about people who might be on the Grand of Minneapolis, I completely feel for you.
I have no fucking clue.
The flip side of that is, if you are an account, and people do kind of create an account just to send me information or to send me questions or whatever, if you send me a question from an account that was created two weeks ago that has eight followers and like four tweets, You could just as easily be a Nazi, as far as I'm concerned.
We're going to view that with a certain amount of skepticism.
The easiest way, like it's totally a thing that Nazis do, that I have seen accounts that I have later confirmed to be fucking Nazis, who are literally probing me to know what I knew about things.
And so, um, I would love to kind of dig in and respond to everyone and kind of get like a really good sense, but if you're kind of asking me those kinds of questions, I am probably not even going to respond.
And I do feel bad about that, but I don't, like, A, I don't have time to respond to all of them, and B, it's just sort of the reality of the situation, that it's better for both of us if I don't.
Here's my advice to you.
Questions I get.
How do I join an anti-fascist crew?
The answer is, it's actually very difficult to join a crew unless you are deeply involved in a local community.
Who are doing these sorts of things in your area.
The best way, if you want to kind of get involved, and I'm not an anarchist, I don't define as an anarchist, but if you want to get involved in anarchist politics, your best way is to find your local Food Not Bombs and start volunteering there.
And if there is an anti-facist crew in your area, and if you are kind of involved in that and you are trustworthy, they will likely find you.
That is the way to do that, right?
And there's no shortcut to doing that.
Because doing anti-fascist action on the ground, which is not something I do.
I don't know anything about this.
I'm just some guy listening to podcasts and talking about the mental microphone.
But if you have that kind of interest, that is the way that I have been told.
That is the way to sort of, like, fulfill that.
And there's not a sexy answer to that because people really want to get involved immediately when they email me.
And my answer is, there's no shortcut to this.
There's a reason that these people are insular because the Nazis are trying to infiltrate them constantly every day.
So just be aware of that.
The other thing I get is like can you give me information about some local?
crew in my area What you want to look for is you want to look for a Twitter feed or you want to look for some kind of like organization that is in your local area and it's sometimes difficult to find that depending on where you live but if you live in a major metro area there's almost certainly an anti-fascist crew there's almost certainly a Twitter that is feeding information out there and your best bet is to message them or to tweet them or to You know, find them in some other way.
That's your, that's kind of your best bet to reach out to them.
And that's something that you will do better than I will.
The other thing that I would recommend you do if you are afraid of some group or if you find some flyers that you are worried about in your area is to contact your local paper.
Contact some local journalists in your area and let them know what's happening.
You might want to vet that a little bit to kind of figure out like which journalists you're reaching out to.
But most places will have some journalist who is interested in at least kind of exploring that.
And if that journalist has questions about sort of the ideology or the motivations of the people involved, tell them to contact me because they will have a professional email address and a known identity where I can verify who they are.
That's my, that's my, that's my, that's my advice to you.
And yes, a lot of journalists will not necessarily be able to kind of follow up on that.
And depending on where you live, you may not have a local paper anymore.
Because capitalism is destroying the news industry, but I've just gotten a lot of requests and I just want to kind of say right here at the beginning I am frustrated with the situation because I am only one person and I can literally not do all of this by myself But that's my advice to you Yeah.
Cosigned.
Everything Daniel says goes double for me because I'm even more disconnected for obvious reasons.
Yeah, I can only imagine if you started getting emails like, you know, I live in southeastern Washington and I saw these flyers.
What would you do about this?
Your answer is, you should DM Daniel, he would probably be the person to contact.
This is it, yeah.
I'd be like, fuck you Jack!
My response is going to be to send you to Daniel so that he can tell you no, instead of me.
And so, that's kind of my, I don't want to sound angry or upset, I really understand the impulse.
Believe me, I completely understand the impulse.
The answer I have is that, like, I do not necessarily have the answer for you.
And there are other places you should go for that.
And that's kind of the long and the short of it.
Turning away from public service announcements.
Right.
To the boogaloo.
To the conversation around the boogaloo.
Why is it now suddenly something that everybody's talking about?
I mean, they've come out of the woodwork, haven't they, to be part of the protests.
Well, they came out to be a first It's incredibly difficult even to talk in these basics because almost anything you say is going to be misleading in some way.
Well, I want to first kind of apologize a little bit for sort of the earlier discussion that we had in previous episodes about the Boogaloo.
Because I first ran across it in these sort of like far-right, accelerationist, terrorgram, siege pill community.
That's where I first kind of ran across the term.
And my kind of assumption was that it came out of that particular community.
And so I sort of was talking about it as that.
It does seem that the term actually predates that by some degree, and it originally comes out of sort of like these far-right libertarian Facebook groups, and we shared this on a previous episode.
Some of this will be recapped for regular listeners, but we're gonna just go over it again.
We did talk about this on a previous episode.
There's an article by Jason Wilson and Robert Evans at Bellingcat.
We will put this link in the show notes, maybe the only link in the show notes, depending on what else we go over.
But it is a description of sort of the origins of the term, and it starts off on the 4chan K-Board, which is a board about weapons, which is largely populated by sort of right-leaning libertarian types.
And I'm going to just bracket here and say when I say libertarian for the rest of this podcast, I mean the right libertarianism of, you know, kind of an Ayn Rand or Robert Heinlein or Murray Rothbard, et cetera, et cetera, as opposed to the more authentic libertarian socialism, libertarian communism, formal libertarianism. as opposed to the more authentic libertarian socialism, libertarian communism, And the reason for that is like in popular parlance in the United States, libertarian means that sort of right libertarian variety.
So I'm just going to not, I'm not going to nuance it in this conversation.
When I say libertarian for the rest of the podcast, I mean right libertarianism.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think.
And quite a, quite the, you know, the non-intellectual quite crude form of it as well, because there are, there are thoughtful forms even of right libertarianism.
I mean, I'm very far from being of that persuasion, but there are, somebody who's looked into this to a degree anyway, there are thoughtful forms of even right libertarianism.
That's not what we're talking about here.
Right, this is mostly a sort of a vulgar version that kind of derives out of like, you know, people who read too many Ron Paul newsletters or, you know, want to smoke weed and don't want to pay taxes.
I like my guns and my drugs and I don't like taxes and I'm okay with black people so long as they like my guns and my low taxes.
And they never complain about anything.
Right, and this is part of one of those.
And so I did kind of seek out a sort of About an hour and a half ago before we started recording, I did kind of put out a thing on Twitter and just kind of say, if you've got questions about it, we'll try to cover some of these, you know, at least kind of cover some of these issues.
And so we will kind of hit that at the end, and I'll, you know, maybe read a few of those if we don't kind of cover the bigger picture issues.
But I do want to kind of, just you and me have A little bit of a conversation around sort of the bigger picture stuff and just kind of like clear the air a little bit about this kind of Boogaloo movement.
Because it does start in that kind of libertarian space and mostly on 4chan and then sort of like migrates over into like Facebook groups.
over the course of mostly sort of 2018 and 2019, is sort of when it seems to have really metastasized into a thing.
And then those ideas kind of fed into the more, you know, Nazi spaces, these terrogram siege pill spaces, and some of the terminology feeds over, and then there's sort of a feedback loop where they're kind of feeding back and forth to each other, and some of these ideas are kind of going back and forth.
And there does seem to have been a certain degree of these terrogram people, people from these groups, from these, like, telegram groups, from these siege pill podcasts that I've been kind of talking about, trying to sort of feed back into the Facebook groups in terms of, like, trying to sort trying to sort of feed back into the Facebook groups in terms of, like, trying to sort of, like, hype up the rhetoric and sort of,
Oh yeah, I mean, they've definitely been engaging in a conscious attempt at, I suppose what you could call entryism, haven't they?
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Well, and this is something that I think really kind of gets like...
Again, something that we talked about in the very first episode, and I guess I just don't talk about it as much.
We kind of have our own audience that has an understanding of what we're talking about, and maybe I should be more clear about some of these things.
One of the things that, like, we kind of learn is that, um, you know, when you kind of do studies of, like, kind of what people in the United States believe and kind of where these kind of ideologies lie, um, it's very difficult to get, like, kind of hard numbers on this because people don't ask these, don't answer these questions honestly, and there is a sort of, like, difficulty in terms of just kind of collecting it, but the best data that we have indicates there's something like 300,000 open white nationalists White supremacists, Klan members, Nazis, etc.
etc.
in the United States who would sort of like openly identify with that or sort of openly agree with that kind of ideology.
About 300,000 which is about one-tenth of 1% of the US population.
There's about 3 million or 10 times as many people who are more associated with sort of that patriot movement the militia movement the three percenters um this sort of kind of like weaponized libertarianism you know in in that kind of like kind of big picture idea and these are all kind of mutually contradictory groups in some ways um
but you got you have another another group which is about 10 times the size of the sort of the open nazis or the people who are what i would call implicitly white supremacist by which they support a um sort of a white supremacist division of society in terms of you know when they say low taxes and when they say i want to be free to do my thing it derives from this kind of point of view of
well i want to go and kind of live by myself and not have to like pay my fair share to society in terms of actually combating the systemic racism that was kind of built into the thing that made me in a position to where i can go and live the life that i want to live you know like i want my weed in my guns but i don't want to like you know actually think about like how i got to have the money that allowed me to have that you know and so there's an implicit versus an experiment and explicit kind of white supremacy white nationalism um racism
that's kind of built into this and And so when you ask the question, and this seems to be kind of a sticking point for people, and this is what I find like really difficult for people who claim to be experts in this stuff to not understand.
And I really don't want to get angry, and I really don't want to sound like I'm upset here, but there are particular people, J.J.
McNabb, Who is a world-class expert on the militia movement, who has been at this for 20 years, someone that I have looked up to for quite a long time, who has had a ton of publications, who works with George Washington University in their, I forget what their program is, but it's like the program on extremism.
She is an expert.
She knows the stuff backwards and forwards.
She's actually a paid professional expert on this.
And she's pulling me, well, the Boogaloo guys are not necessarily white supremacist, or, you know, they're not necessarily racist, because this one guy has a black wife.
And that's like, wow, JJ, that's really fucking stupid.
It's really stupid.
And then she kind of goes off and is talking about, like, you know, how they're not racist, these are just right libertarians, and it's like, well, yes, if you're talking about explicit racism, you're talking about sort of an explicit, like, we're actually pushing for a race war kind of racism, then no, they're not, right?
I agree, but we need to have a more nuanced and complicated understanding of what racism means than that, right?
And to say that, oh, they're just right libertarians, they're not racist, is to deny this kind of long history, which J.J.
McNabb is very, very aware of, of racism within right libertarianism.
And that's what sort of frustrates me when she starts tweeting out some bullshit about this.
That she has this huge audience of people within the mainstream media who are going to listen to her, and then I get a thousand emails about like, you know, but she, but what I thought they weren't racist.
And it's like, oh my God, we're just using words in different ways.
And like, I think once we start defining our words properly, everybody sort of understands and sort of agrees with sort of the basic premise.
But all this nuance is getting lost within sort of like this Twitter sphere and this sort of like the mainstream media suddenly paying attention to this and I find it all completely frustrating as I think you can hear my voice.
Yeah, I think I picked up on that.
I have to cop to having probably done some of this myself, talking about this subject on Twitter.
I've described these things in two simple terms, although I think I was basically on the right side of the argument.
But, I mean, as you say yourself, you know, the boogaloo has its origins not in the, sort of, the siege pill circles that I thought was the origin of it.
Which I told you was the origin of it.
So, like, it's my fault for, sort of, misinforming people.
Because I wasn't aware of, sort of, the full origins of this.
And this is why, this is something that we're all, sort of, like, researching in real time and trying to discuss in real time.
And so there are ambiguities here, and there are sort of mistakes that people make, and there are sort of honest mistakes.
Believe me, I take full responsibility for that sort of bit of misinformation.
I always give people the best information that I have at a given time, right?
And then it turns out, no, the term sort of originates earlier than that.
That doesn't negate the truth of what we did in episodes 28 and 29 talking about the siege pillars.
It just means that the term Boogaloo was sort of adopted from this sort of larger militia-style libertarian movement.
Yeah, yeah.
But I'm just trying to make the point that, you know, I'm on Twitter throwing my weight around and, you know, I'm getting things wrong as well.
So, you know, it's easily done.
Like, you know, I'm calling the Boogaloo a Nazi concept.
And, I mean, it is now, I think.
But if I seem to be implying that it originated in... Well, I mean, that's what I thought.
So I was mistaken on that.
I mean, it's very difficult to talk in terms of, like, part of the problem that we run into, and this is something that, like, the alt-right dickheads in 2015 and 2016 realized, at least implicitly, when they were sort of working to get Donald Trump elected, and they were kind of working with the Pepe era, this kind of period, was that social media, it's this kind of period, was that social media, it's very difficult to get complicated ideas expressed through social media.
And so, especially through Twitter, which at the time was 140 characters, a tweet, now it's 280.
But even at 280 characters, it's very difficult to really kind of sink in nuance without, you know, sort of, like, writing a thread or kind of doing, you know, you're always sort of missing detail for any kind of, like, complicated idea.
And so, if you can hone your ideas into the simplest sort of message, Jews bad, or, you know, like, you know, blacks do crime or whatever, you're going to get much more, especially if you can make it funny, to, you know, kind of whatever your audience is, you're going to be able to get kind of whatever your audience is, you're going to be able to get much more play than if you're, like, kind of trying to do, like, a multi-tweet tweet thread about, you know, some kind of, like, nuanced idea and trying to really explain it into a lot
Those ideas just don't spread as quickly, and to be fair, there are people doing multi-tweet threads who have been spreading a bunch of bullshit, and I will leave some of those people unnamed in this juncture, but there's been a lot of stuff that's been kind of spread on Twitter in the last week or so, which is again like 80-85% good, but then 15% like, you know, facepalm.
But there has also been some some very nice stuff and I would you know, I don't know It's just it's difficult because I just sort of like understand how much time I've spent like trying to understand this stuff and trying to kind of follow this movement and trying to explain it to people and then when I find people following me who are sort of like misinformed or sort of confused in ways that I didn't think they were going to be confused I
Um, it does, it did strike me as, obviously I'm not doing enough to explain this properly, or I'm not doing enough to sort of combat some of this misinformation.
And so, again, I'm not trying to make this about me, but this is sort of like, I'm trying to come out here and sort of like, correct some of the mistakes that we might have made, or some of the miscommunication, right?
Well, yeah, and that's certainly something that I think is a really great thing to do.
I think it's really important that we do that because we're dealing with important subjects here, you know, and I think it's great that we... I mean, I'm sort of praising us, you know, but I think it's an important thing to do to go back and say, look, you know, we maybe got this wrong or maybe we need to nuance this and there's complexities here.
I think that's just the responsible thing to do when you're dealing with topics like this.
Hang on a minute.
Let me just see if I sort of understand the basic thrust of this, right?
Sure.
Because as I said last week, my role here is to be the idiot that you clarify for the audience by explaining things to.
Well, if you don't understand it, then I'm definitely not doing it properly.
This is the goal of the podcast is for Daniel to explain it so simply that even I can understand.
No, the point is that Jack not only listens to me talk, but then edits me talking, and then probably re-listens to the episode afterwards.
So you get it at least two, if not three times, right?
So this should be, If anyone is not understanding my words, I may be wrong, but you should be able to understand what I'm saying.
It's just noise to me, Daniel.
When I edit, I don't listen to the words.
I just listen out for coughs and sneezes and dog barks.
You just play it backwards and take out the noise.
But, let me see if I've got the basic thrust of this right.
This is a concept that originates on 4chan, on the K-Board, rather than on the Poll Board, which is kind of a place where people who are into guns and right-libertarian politics congregate.
It's kind of a non-explicitly political board.
Yeah, I think you were about to clarify that.
Yeah.
They're not actually supposed to talk politics on that board, but they do, or whatever.
The denizens of 4chan are almost entirely like this kind of libertarian crowd, as any sort of place where people talk about guns on the internet just ends up being either kind of straight-line Republican or libertarian.
And so it's just sort of like...
Not by explicitly this is meant to be a Libertarian board as much as we're a bunch of white dudes talking about guns.
We've all read Murray Rothbard or at least familiar with him.
You know, it's just sort of the reality.
So, yeah.
I, yeah, I wonder how many of them have actually read Murray Rothbard.
No, no, I wanted to, I said that and then I'm like, no, they really haven't read Rothbard.
They've like, you know, um, you know, we can, we can, they've all, they've all seen The Incredibles.
Let's put it that way.
They've all watched South Park.
that's That's probably closer to the mark, yeah.
Yeah, so 4chan, k-board, guns, right libertarians, and this concept originates there.
And the Boogaloo is kind of the second civil war, isn't it?
It's kind of the uprising against authority, against the government, against the forces of law and order that are repressing them by making them pay taxes.
And it's supposedly anti-cop as well, and that's something that gets a little bit lost in some of the conversation about life because um one of the differences between the kind of overt fascists and uh these kind of libertarian types is that fascists fucking love the cops so long as they're after the right people you know which they are depressingly often which they are depressingly often which they are depressingly often which they are depressingly often Depressingly often, although they don't think so.
They think the cops are... We'll talk about that in a future episode, maybe.
Yeah, I've got some real TRS bullshit.
They've been on some... Yeah, anyway.
They think the cops are all paid by Soros to oppress white men and protect trans people.
It turns out that Antifire are the foot soldiers of the system.
Anarchists just believe the same thing as Starbucks and Amazon, etc, and it's all enforced by the cops.
And the central feature of the police force is to oppose white nationalists.
Of course, white nationalists, that's the sole purpose of the entire police system.
Yeah, the American police and the anarchists, the anarchist cadres in Antifa, they're on the same side.
Yeah, and it turns out Noam Chomsky, lover of the cops, that's the... or kind of like stooge of the system that includes the cops in Starbucks.
Anyway... Oh God, complete digression, but have you heard Noam Chomsky's interview with Alex Jones?
Oh, I feel like I need to now.
I didn't know it existed.
It's from a good few years ago now.
Obviously Chomsky hasn't got a clue who he's talking to.
He's just, you know, we want to do an interview.
Fine, I'll do an interview.
I do interviews for anybody.
So he's on the phone with Alex Jones and he's sort of talking and Alex Jones is agreeing with everything he says until he says that he's in favour of gun control.
Whereupon Alex Jones immediately decides that he's a CIA asset.
It's hilarious.
Yeah, that describes Noam Chomsky very well, almost as well as monolingual.
You know, not interested in languages would be the other thing that would describe Noam Chomsky as well.
I think people forget that Noam Chomsky is a linguist.
Anyway, so fascists love cops, except for they believe that the police system is universally opposed to them, which, okay, we'll cover that in the future.
But these libertarian circles tend to be very strongly Anti-cop in ways that are almost to an absurd degree.
I think I can speak for both of us that we're anti-cop on this show.
We are anti-law enforcement in the sense of the systemic issues within law enforcement, particularly in the United States, but also in Britain where you live, are designed to preserve capital and designed to defend the capitalist class, etc.
And ultimately are used to crush working class people, in particular racial minorities who exist within this kind of subaltern class and are ultimately crushed by this police force.
And therefore the police force is just sort of fundamentally bad.
Libertarians don't like the police because they come and enforce what they consider to be like stupid regulations around you know like getting your like enforcing kind of like the regulatory state seems to be kind of the place that these began.
And also enforcing drug laws, which libertarians tend to really be into drugs.
I don't have a problem with people who are into drugs.
Like, that's fine.
You know?
I'm having a beer right now.
Alcohol is legal.
The fact that weed is not legal in most of this country is disgusting, and the Schedule 1 drug, etc, etc.
I think it's awful.
Other drugs, you know, go nuts.
I'm fine.
Be safe.
You know, I would rather it be legal and safe.
than the system that we're under now.
But libertarians love their fucking drugs, and because they can get hassled by the cops, they are virulently anti-cop.
And if you recall our Christopher Cantwell episodes, this was part of his origin story, was being virulently anti-cop, until he kind of transitioned into being a fascist after a cop was nice to him once.
So, yeah.
Sorry, there's our Cantwell reference for the listener who's always listening for the Cantwell reference.
Yeah, for those of you jonesing for Cantwell news, there's a little methadone for you.
Yeah, go back and listen to episode 6, that's the one where we discuss that.
Anyway, so the libertarian movement is, you know, very strongly sort of anti-police in the sense of the current regulatory state.
They're perfectly fine with cops, although they would typically say, like, we want, like, private security forces instead of, like, a state-run police force, which sort of works in the same Right.
in terms of the kinds of things that cause, like it's not really, it's a distinction without a difference in terms of like the actual material reality of what cops do, except that a private security force isn't going to enforce sort of like the sort of what they call victimless crimes, like drug crimes, et cetera, et cetera, or like pornography, you et cetera, et cetera, or like pornography, you know, taxation, et cetera.
And they're just going to sort of defend property.
And this is where you get to the other sort of like, sorry, go ahead.
No, no, no.
I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to start asking logical questions about the ideology of libertarianism.
Forget I even started saying it.
We could!
We could go into that.
One of the things that I think people might not understand is I was a teenage libertarian.
When I was 16 I believed all of this shit, right?
So I speak with some, not to say I grew out of it in my late teens, but I read a big chunk of Heinlein, almost all of Ayn Rand.
I believed all this shit.
I used to hang out in the Von Mises forums and all kinds of stuff.
I was a believer.
I used to argue with people.
That you should allow for, like, dead rats to be used as upholstery in furniture making because, like, oh, some competing company is just going to do it better.
Like, it's such, like, bullshit, right?
You know?
But, yeah, no, I was that kid when I was, you know, 15, 16.
So, you know, thankfully I grew out of that.
So many men do not.
But, like, so I speak with some authority in terms of, like, what vulgar libertarians believe because I was one, you know?
Yeah, but as I say, I'm not going to get into it, so please continue.
Sorry, I kind of lost my train of thought there.
You were talking about their views on the police.
Oh, OK.
So the flip side of this is that...
They absolutely believe that a police force, like the sole purpose, and this is sort of the difference between sort of the strict anarcho-capitalist versus sort of the mini-archist sort of realm, is that the mini-archists believe in sort of the smallest government possible.
And there is some, you know, the anarcho-capitalists will say, well, all this can be done through private security forces or sort of private agreements.
They go and reinvent the wheel 50 times to sort of figure out How you do it without having a binding use of force that's imposed without their version of contract, etc., etc.
But ultimately, we can smooth over all those details and say that we usually support some kind of use of force in order to defend property.
Which is why I think that these right libertarians should more precisely be defined as propertarians.
Because that's ultimately the central idea of this ideology, is that there is a thing of private property, and that private property is inviolate by any standard.
And then they don't have a differentiation between sort of private property and, you know, between what you own and sort of the means of production.
That's not a sort of differentiation that they would make.
And so this private property can grow as large as sort of a massive wealth you can accumulate.
But at the very least they sort of defend like, well, you know, that store belongs to like some person or some corporate entity or whatever.
And you have no right to go steal from it, regardless if you're starving or whatever.
And so, this is why you see these Boogaloo Boys showing up and defending like fucking Hobby Lobby and Dick's Sporting Goods and Target and shit against looters during the riots, because despite the fact that they are virulently anti-government and anti-cop, they are very much in favor of major corporations not having a window broken.
Yeah, yeah.
It really is the ultimate sort of form of safe rebellion, isn't it?
It's posing as a rebel and really underneath it all being the nerdiest, geekiest, speckiest nosebleed there ever was.
Which is again like not really, when you're not willing to confront the sort of systemic issues that like have built a society around you.
When you see the entirety of sort of the problems in the world as being built by this sort of like government or state and don't see the issues that capitalism has brought in that kind of historic, like the historic role of like the state and capital working hand in like the historic role of like the state and capital working hand in hand as opposed to being sort of like combating features, then you're not looking at sort of the systemic way that the world has
And therefore, when you're not examining those issues, despite the fact that you may not be kind of personally racist in the sense of like you may have black friends, you may have a black wife.
I'm assuming these people are white.
They're not universally white.
That's another thing we can kind of get into.
But like despite the fact that you may have friends and family of other races, despite the fact that you may have whatever your personal situation is, whatever your sort of personal beliefs around people of different races, regardless of like what kind of music you listen to, et cetera, et cetera.
If you're not confronting these systemic problems that have sort of created this situation, then you are not really combating racism.
And you are not, convincingly to my mind, and to what a critical race theorist would think, actually combating racism.
And this is where, again, we've talked about this a few times on the show, Ibrahim Kendi's book, Stamped from the Beginning, and his new book, How to Be an Antiracist, I think also kind of covers this in more detail.
I've not read that one yet.
I've talked to people who have and said it's equally excellent.
But he uses this sort of tripartite.
So we tend to think of people as like kind of racist and not racist.
That's sort of like a very kind of like very broadly speaking, the conception of like how we think of racism.
And Kendi argues that we should think of these things as like even in terms of sort of a personal ideology.
And not even looking at sort of systemic issues as racist, assimilationist, and anti-racist.
And that both the assimilationist and racist positions are racist.
And so, again, to oversimplify, our overt neo-Nazis who want to create a white ethnostate are actually, like, overtly racist.
They fit into the racist category, great.
We all agree.
The people actively combating racism and actively combating those people and these systems that sort of allow them to be prominent in our society, and the people actually combating these kinds of things, to the degree that they're doing that are working from an anti-racist position.
That's where I try to be.
I'm a white man.
I have my own issues.
I have my own prejudices.
I have my own systemic issues.
I'm not denying that, but that's where at least the goal is to sort of act in an anti-racist manner, at least through the process of this podcast.
The assimilationist position is much more complex.
Well, it doesn't matter what race you are, so long as you agree with my right to own guns and have private property, and as long as you pull your pants up, and as long as you listen to the kind of music that I like, and as long as you kind of agree with me on all these things, and you assimilate to The cultural and socio-economic kind of vision of whiteness and you get to be like one of us and we accept you as one of our own but only in so far as you accept that kind of whiteness as being the best way to be.
And so that assimilationist position of not allowing people to be of other cultures and allowing people to kind of be who they are and to have that kind of broader perspective about like the variety of human experience It's also a racist position because it means that, well, we like particular kinds of black people.
We like particular kinds of Jewish people.
We like particular kinds of this and that and the other.
Yeah.
And so, again, sorry, I've butchered that.
I apologize to Dr. Kidney, but that's sort of the summary that I give of that concept.
And I think, again, we've talked about it a few times, but I think it's essential to understanding this kind of divide among these kinds of groups of people.
Yeah.
The assimilationist position reminds me of an old joke by Richard Herring, who's kind of a dickhead to be honest, but it's a good joke, where he says, I'm a feminist, I believe that women should be treated as if they're as good as men.
Which, sure, that sounds like the sort of thing, I mean, you know, in joke form.
Well, I think about, and not to, not to, I mean, not to get, but you know, Joe Biden, you know, kind of saying to me, like, well, if you don't vote for me, you're not black.
You're not black, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, which is, you know, like, I'm not, we're not talking about Joe Biden, but it's a very easy kind of go to example, right?
Of like, you know, well, if you perform your blackness in a way that is supportive of the Democratic Party, then you get to be like part of our coalition.
And if you don't perform in that way, Then, therefore, you're not appropriately black.
It's a complicated example that's not the clearest example, but it's very easy, and this is something that very well-meaning white liberals do all the time.
Whenever you talk about, like, oh, I'm just looking for good schools.
I just don't want to go to the bad parts of town.
I'm just, you know, worried about like, you know, the thugs who might, you know, be around the corner or kind of whatever.
Or, you know, talking about credit scores.
You know, well, certain kinds of people just shouldn't be in the neighborhood and that, you know, that's very much that assimilationist position.
And it may be completely well-meaning and it may be completely based on, you know, some of this kind of sense of personal safety or this sense of, you know, kind of, you know, I just want to live a nice quiet life.
But if you're ignoring these kind of larger systemic issues that are literally crushing African-American people and people of other races under the boot heel of the oppressive white supremacist society in which we live, Then you're not being an anti-racist.
Period.
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, to try to steer us back onto the... Yeah, we should probably get back to the Boogaloo, right?
I mean, this is all good stuff.
It's all relevant.
But I was trying to sort of do the narrative, okay?
So, we've talked about its origins on 4chan.
It migrates to Facebook.
Now, my understanding is...
Firstly, we have the narrative about it sort of cross-pollinating with the neo-Nazis, right?
They kind of get hold of some concepts and they try to feed their own ideas back into the boogaloo discussion that's going on outside their circles.
Is that a fair characterization?
I think that's a fair characterization.
I mean, I haven't seen sort of like explicit.
We know that people like Vic Mackey and some of these other figures in this Boogaloo movement were kind of pollinating this idea of race war.
We're pollinating this idea of Boogaloo in a whole lot of places.
I haven't seen, like, Vic Mackey showing up in a Facebook group and kind of spreading this.
I have no reason to doubt that it happened or that some other person similarly situated has done certain things.
I mean, we know that there is sort of a cross-pollination.
We know that it's a thing.
And certainly there were indications of in these sort of like teragram chats and on these podcasts, whenever you would see someone who would kind of kill cops or whatever, or they would do something that was, you know, from that kind of militia perspective, kind of create chaos in their from that kind of militia perspective, kind of create chaos in their sense, they would cheer And they would definitely see that as kind of part of the same thing.
And they would egg it on in their own way.
So, I mean, it's difficult to sort of trace the exact relations because people use SOC accounts.
And so I don't want to kind of make the simple declarative sentence that we know that there are people.
But certainly I think it's pretty obvious that there has been like cross-pollination both ways, you know, that there are sort of right libertarians who kind of found their way into the teragram stuff, who might have been influenced.
And certainly some of the memes kind of go back and forth.
Um, The other thing... Sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say, I think this is why the metaphor cross-pollination is a good one, because we don't need to sort of posit a one-way relationship where it's a kind of plot on the part of the Nazis to conduct entryism, although I don't doubt that that happened.
But it's a case of ideas with enough similarity and enough resonance and enough compatibility naturally sort of bumping into each other and interpenetrating, isn't it?
And really essential here, and really something that, again, we mentioned in episode 28, I talked about to some degree, is that the siege pill types, the people who are actually followers of James Mason's siege, I'm not going to get into the details of that.
Please go back and listen to episode 28.
We discussed it to some degree then.
In 29, we discussed some of those figures.
I mean, really, this should be a kind of a sequel to those two episodes.
We are kind of, you know, I just don't want to have to go over siege again.
One of the things that's essential to note is that in the Siege, on many, many occasions, and in many other places elsewhere, and throughout like all these kind of podcasts that I was following, Back when they still existed because all these C12 podcasts went away, certainly after episode 29.
Funny how that worked.
But one of the things that's really important to note is that James Mason would always say, like, no, don't do that.
I mean, if you put yourself in a situation where you've got to do violence yourself, You know, go out with a blaze of glory, take as many with you as you can.
You can't say it in that many words, but that's essentially his message.
But the real message is, we just need to increase the tensions in society.
We need to sort of push the common man, this kind of large crowd of people who own guns.
We need to push this kind of large, the more normie types.
We need to make their life more difficult.
We need to kind of push racial tension.
We need to push societal tension.
We need to push economic tension onto them to make them snap and then go out and do the violence for us.
The idea was we're going to go hide off in our little hole somewhere and let like the militia types go kill all the black people.
And then the black people do violence against, you know, and then because they see this kind of growing race war, et cetera, et cetera.
And then we're going to kind of come out at the end and go like, well, I guess we're wrong things now.
And that's sort of the, you know, that's sort of the philosophy.
Like there was never a sense in which like James Mason is going to come out there with, you know, and be like the great military leader that creates a civil war.
The whole point is just to create mass violence, which they don't really intend to participate in except for in like limited ways.
If someone kind of comes across them.
I mean, I think some of them did fantasize and obviously wanted to go and kind of do things for themselves.
But the idea was always to make other people do the dying for them.
It's strangely similar to Charles Manson and Helter Skelter, actually.
Oh, no, no.
It's taken directly from that.
It's both inspired by it seems to be sort of to some degree parallel lines and to some degree kind of, again, another cross pollination, although Manson didn't get it from Mason.
But Mason, He met Manson, like he spoke to former members of the Manson family in the 80s.
Oh, right.
Like, yeah.
I mean, you know, during the, during the portion, during the period when he's like really kind of coming up with seeds, there's this sort of a universal order concept, which I was sort of reminded by someone who's probably listening right now.
I was kind of asked, like, how much do you know about the universal order?
And I'm like, that kind of esoteric religious shit.
I just, I have a hard time like really putting that much brain work into.
But I guess I'm going to have to, because nobody else seems to be talking about it, so I guess I'm going to have to become an expert in universal order.
More things for me to learn in all my coachless free time.
You've probably told me about the connection with Manson before, and I just forgot.
Oh yeah, yeah, no, it's in episode 28.
I mean, it's fine.
There's so much material.
Nobody should have to know this stuff.
Nobody.
But it strikes me that the key sort of The area of tessellation there, if you like, is the accelerationism.
I mean, that's what the murders were for the Manson family.
They were an attempt at acceleration.
And both these ideas, the idea of the Boogaloo originates with this idea of, you know, having the showdown, having the second Civil War.
Wouldn't it be great when, you know, the day finally comes when we rise up and et cetera, et cetera.
And I don't know to what extent people in that online community talked about pushing for that or actively trying to cause it to happen, but that obviously connected quite well with that element in Mason's siege mentality.
Right, I mean it's clear in terms of the people, sort of the content creators and the people within the telegram community, which a lot of these telegram channels only had A few hundred members, you know?
Oh yeah.
That's the thing that's really kind of essential here, is that these are sort of the most hardcore of the hardcore, kind of pushing these ideas in this very explicit way.
And these are people who, you know, some of them did kind of derive from the Iron March forums, which was sort of a place where all this was sort of like percolating in sort of the pre-alt-right years, kind of leading up to this kind of moment.
And people were kind of sharing these sort of like Quote-unquote intellectual arguments about various forms of fascism and the need for violence, etc.
This is something that Matt Heimbach was very fond of in his days of reading the Iron March forums and spoke highly of in the Take a Walk on the Right Side podcast, by the way.
It's like, how intellectual!
Those conversations were of people talking about fascism.
Interesting.
Yeah, interesting.
Anyway, we won't talk about that.
That's another topic we will not discuss today.
Hey, can I just throw in one little tidbit?
This is fun.
After we played the bits of Matt Heimbach speaking to Vic Mackey on Waffenhaus in the last episode, or in that two episodes back, Guess what happened to that Waffenhaus channel on BitChute?
Oh, it didn't go anywhere, did it?
It's gone!
It's gone, the whole channel.
Not even that episode, the whole channel is gone.
Really?
Yeah, no, it is.
It's gone.
Well, it's lost forever then, because I'm sure nobody's got any.
Nobody managed to maintain a copy of that, I'm sure.
Can't imagine who might have a copy of that.
Anyway, anyway.
Anyway.
So yeah, but there is this kind of very concrete thing.
So this very tiny community of just a few hundred people who are people who really kind of believe this stuff and are really kind of pushing for this race war concept, then sort of, again, sort of speculation, it's kind of hard to kind of, but push these ideas into these sort of Boogaloo Facebook groups, these kind of more, but push these ideas into these sort of Boogaloo Facebook groups, these kind of more, you know, LARP-y kind of guys who like guns, who
A lot of the people who went to the protests in the, you know, in the kind of the COVID, the Reopen America sort of protests, like the ones in Lansing, seem to have not really been sort of hardcore about it.
They just sort of liked the idea of like, yeah, we're going to spark off a, you know, it's sort of like, we go, we show up in the wine shirts, we're carrying our sparkly guns that seem to be rarely used.
Go paintballing, guys!
that are put together wrong.
We don't even know how to hold properly.
We don't even know how to hold properly.
I mean, it's this sort of, like, there is this sort of fantasy element to it for a lot of people.
And so that's where, but the idea is, you know, you go paintballing guys, go paintballing.
Seriously, seriously, like, fine, you know, go just masturbate more.
If you masturbate more, you know, I'm just saying there's a reason that these far right communities do the no fat thing, you know.
No, you're going to lose your male vitality and you're not going to want to go out and kill all the black people if you don't masturbate.
It's like, just, it's fine.
Masturbate.
Like, pay for your porn.
I always say pay for your porn.
You know, like, you know, support your local sex worker.
Just go clean the pipes out.
It'll be fine.
It's just going to be fine.
Your life will be better, I promise you.
Or, you know, do something.
Use it to lose it, guys.
But a lot of these guys, I mean, but a lot of this is, there is a sort of LARPy element to it for a lot of people.
And there is a sort of, like, daring themselves how far they're going to go.
And I don't want to deny the danger of, like, putting several hundred or several thousand people, armed men who maybe do and maybe don't know how to handle the weapons they're carrying in, like, enclosed space, because it only takes kind of one accidental misfire for all hell to break loose. because it only takes kind of one accidental misfire for
And that's sort of the thing that I think a lot of these, like, kind of more hardcore boogaloo types were sort of itching to happen, was sort of to make... I mean, we had these members of the base, these, I think, two or three members of the base, who showed up to the Richmond gun rally on January 20th.
Um, seemingly with the intention of, like, we're just going to open fire to the crowd, and, like, we won't kill that many among us, but it'll just create so much chaos and it'll just be bloods will run in the streets and this will, like, spark off this race war.
That seems to be the, like, explicit idea.
Yeah.
And to use this kind of larger tension, this larger crowd.
Apprehended peacefully, I assume.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because that to me is the most interesting political point about these guys that turned up, you know, at the State House with guns and masks and shit.
It's not really them that's significant, it's the fact that they were able to do that and survive.
Because of course their skin is pink.
Those guys, it turned out, they were being infiltrated by the FBI.
And it turns out it's very difficult to spark off your race war when, you know, you inform all your plans to the law enforcement, who are probably not, like, big fans of Black Lives Matter and socialism, et cetera, but do have a certain obligation to prevent, like, you know, a mass massacre. but do have a certain obligation to prevent, like, you Yeah, I mean, at the very least, their careers would be harmed.
Right.
At the very least, you know, like, you might lose your pension, you know, if a thousand people died or something.
Oh yeah, this is a depressing era, isn't it?
Anyway, but that's where we kind of are with that.
So you have this sort of like increasing tension, which again, sort of the gun rally in Richmond in January, and then the COVID-19 and these kind of lockdowns start in, you know, March, like middle of March is sort of when That sort of starts coming to a head, and then you start seeing this, like again, it increases the tension.
The situation itself, like the material conditions under which people were living for a couple of months earlier this year during the kind of the height of lockdowns, and the whole point was to sort of like create this increased tension, to create this sort of increased anxiety among people that sort of forces them to kind of go out onto the streets and to kind of like do these things.
And hypothetically, if you're going to be out there protesting anyway and hanging the governor of Michigan in effigy, maybe you could just let off a few shots while you're at it.
Why not?
Let's park off the race war.
Yeah.
And then, of course, the protests, the Minneapolis protests and the sort of like the uprising sort of arrived that kind of came about after the George Floyd murder, which we're still sort of living in now.
That's where we reach this kind of current moment.
And so there is this sort of heightening tension.
or it's this sort of heightening anxieties, heightening Pressure on this that sort of is happening now And that's why I like suddenly the mainstream media is paying attention to because suddenly you get all these dipshits in Hawaiian shirts carrying rifles Showing up to these things and then like CNN has to ask that like why why the Hawaiian shirt?
And they don't have a good source of information because it turns out I don't think anyone to CNN is listening to this podcast and that's really unfortunate I think I think all of CNN should be listening to this in fact I They should just hire.
No one will hire me.
Hire somebody who knows more than me.
There are plenty of people.
I could give you a list of people, but if you want to throw a few thousand dollars my way, I'll explain this to you.
Don't worry.
Yeah, absolutely.
The thing is that some of the confusion stems from the fact that there is, as I understand it, I stand to be corrected, but there is far from ideological conformity among people who identify as Boogaloo people, isn't there?
Because at the same time as you have this version of the libertarian to fascist pipeline going on where elements of the Boogaloo people online and the neo-Nazi people are cross-pollinating, you also have the Boogaloo spreading out in other directions all over Facebook.
And what you have now, again I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, but what you have now I think is I mean, I was going to say a lot.
We're not talking about a lot of people.
We're talking about a relatively tiny number of people.
But people from this subculture, I suppose you could call it... I mean, some of these groups have tens of thousands of members.
I mean, this is not like a miniscule number of people.
Yeah, but the active people actually showing up at protests, that's a small number, isn't it?
Yeah, sure.
I mean, you know, and of course, like, the more kind of hardcore and devoted you get, the smaller the number goes, kind of by definition, right?
A handful of people who are actively pushing for race war influence a larger number of people who are kind of showing up with guns, who really itch to do something, but don't have the courage for it.
And there's a larger number of people who don't really want to do it, but kind of think it's possible.
And there's a larger number of people who don't really want to do it, but would do it if it was necessary, and et cetera, et cetera.
And so you get this sort of, I don't want to say like a concentric circle model, because that's kind of an, it's not a very good image to do it.
But like essentially, like as you kind of move along that spectrum, things get larger and larger in terms of the number of people.
Because that's just how these kinds of things work, you know, kind of a definition.
But there is not ideological conformity or homogeneity among these people.
They are turning up at the protests, they're inserting themselves into the protest, and some of them, again, as I understand it, some of them are, you know, they are disavowing Nazi ideas, they are claiming to be there to defend protesters, To, you know, to fight the police on behalf of the protests and protect protesters and things like this.
There are people, you know, Left Boogaloo, if you like.
Well, let's put a pin in that, we'll come back to that in a second.
Well, that's really what I want to get to, because I think what it seems to me is that the Boogaloo is an inherently, if not necessarily an inherently fascist idea, an inherently fascistic idea, because it's based upon this idea of the non-class-based popular rebellion against the government.
Whereas, of course, you know, a left-wing revolution is one that's based on class.
This is one that's not based on class.
It's not necessarily based on race in an explicit form.
But of course, in practice, what happens to these sorts of ideas, where class is completely eradicated from the analysis, but you have this kind of Populist, anti-government, anti-authoritarianism.
Is that it kind of almost inexorably and inevitably slides further and further right-wing?
You know?
Well, it does.
Just to kind of, you know, like, the question is, like, are they universally right-wing?
I'm sure there are some Bernie supporters or two in there.
It kind of depends on how you define right-wing.
The movement grows out of right-libertarianism.
I'm sure there are some people who don't necessarily agree with Rothbardian ideology or whatever.
Who hang out there because they think it's cool, or like all their friend group is there, or kind of whatever.
But this is an overwhelmingly right-wing movement.
To my knowledge, and I would be happy to be corrected if this is wrong, but I have kind of put this question to some people who follow this stuff a little more closely than I do, and like, so, have you seen anyone from, let's say, the Socialist Ragful Association?
Hang out in these groups is sort of like spreading this meme.
And the answer is no, we haven't seen that.
No, absolutely not.
Have you seen people kind of like supporting like revolutionary socialism?
Have you seen, you know, like proper anarchists, like Antifa members kind of sitting there and going like, yeah, we actually think the Boogaloo is a great, you know, we're going to ally with these people.
And the answer is like by and large, no.
You have seen attempts and you haven't really seen attempts for like the Boogaloo crowd to sort of co-opt that.
to co-opt those sorts of things.
They do really hate Antifa.
Some of them might claim to hate the Nazis more, but they do really don't like the...
Because in their mind, what Antifa does is property neighbors.
They break windows and punch people in the face.
And they're like, we prevent violence by standing there with our guns, etc., etc.
What we have seen, and this is what I think people are kind of confused by.
And I'm not saying that you are, but what we have seen is attempts to make inroads to the Black Lives Matter crowd.
And this has gotten pretty explicit.
I mean, there are like flyers that are being kind of put around, both in real life and on the Internet, that are sort of like these flyers that are, you know, like to BLM we support.
These are the things that we support, like an end to policing, end to the drug war, et cetera, et cetera.
You know, and some of these, like there's a flag that goes around that has like the names of various people who have been killed by police.
And then they put like George Floyd and they put Breonna Taylor.
But they'll put that right next to like Lavoie Finnegan, who was the member of the Maller Wildlife Reserve, the Yal-Qaeda thing.
Yeah.
And he was killed by the cops, largely because he sort of wanted it to happen.
I'm not trying to like victim blame and I'm certainly not saying, you know, but go listen to Bundyville season two.
I think there's a there's a really great episode that sort of explores this idea in some good detail.
And I think, you know, largely he, you know, that's a man who wanted to be a martyr and ended up being one and whose death has been used by this kind of like far right militia movement to sort of spread a kind of ideology.
But they use these same kind of these same kinds of figures, these sort of right wing militia people.
And he's sort of like, you know, Ruby Ridge and, you know, kind of Waco and all this kind of stuff.
Yes.
Alongside, like, the Black Lives Matter stuff and saying, like, see, we are all on the same team, don't you see?
And we should all oppose the cops for the same reason and say, you should pick up a gun and join the Boogaloo with us.
And that's the sort of, like, entryism and the sort of, like, appropriating the moment thing that we're seeing.
And that does seem to be coming, from what I understand, and again, I would be happy to be correct on that, seems to be coming from these sort of Libertarian spaces as opposed to this sort of like the overt Nazi spaces if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely.
They're very into David Koresh, they're very into Randy Weaver and that sort of stuff that goes back to the populist, anti-government, sort of militia-tinged extremism from the 90s.
They're big heroes for them.
There's another guy, I'm completely spacing on his name, but he was...
Killed in a police raid and he was supposedly a boogaloo guy.
Yeah, yeah, think of Duncan Lemp.
Duncan Lemp, yeah.
The circumstances of his death.
I mean, I'm quite prepared to believe that the police murdered him because they murder people.
You're more likely to be murdered by the cops if you're black, but it's quite possible.
But he's another of the the martyrs that they're sort of, you know, on their side that they're sort of linking with names like George Floyd.
And it's grotesque to link whatever you think about what happened to Randy Weaver and Finnegan and people like that.
It's grotesque to link them to George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.
Breonna Taylor was asleep on her couch.
And got shot eight times by cops.
And her killers have not been arrested, so far as I know at the time of this recording.
As opposed to, you know, Lavoie Finnegan was reaching for his gun after a multi-week standoff with the police and with federal authorities.
Driving at them at speed or something.
He had parked at that point.
I mean, you know, there are real questions about what happened, but he definitely, like, He, you know, in the video he's like reaching for his gun at that point.
Like there's a, this does seem to have been a sort of suicide attempt.
And that's not to justify his killing in the slightest.
No.
But that's a very different situation.
It's different.
That's a very, very different situation.
We're not saying it's okay, we're saying it's different.
And it's grotesque to link them together.
And for me that speaks enormously of the difference, because their analysis abstracts away from not only class, I mean that's why they hate Antifa, because Antifa are generally speaking people of far left, you know, anarchists, people like that.
I call it moderates, moderates, moderates.
We gotta make sure to push the Overton window our way, you know.
No, no, no, no.
That's fine, move on.
I'm sorry, I was going for a joke there.
That's okay, sometimes you reach and it's not there.
As I know full well.
Yeah, whatever we think of the politics of Antifa, they're generally class-based in their analysis, right?
They hate Antifa and also they abstract away class from the analysis and they abstract away race from the analysis.
If you're lumping George Floyd in with Lavoie Finnegan, You are abstracting away from the real problem with the police, which is, I mean, I completely accept the left-wing analysis of the police is fundamentally there to protect capital and property, etc, etc.
But the problem, you know, at this moment is that the police are an instrument of white supremacy.
That's obviously the key issue at the moment, in the current situation.
They are completely effacing that when they try to lump this all in together and make a kind of common appeal.
And that to me is a... that's like a perfect example of how this kind of, you know, classless, deracinated, almost sort of weirdly apolitical, anti-government populism, it just inherently drifts right-wing, even there where they're trying to reach out and make common cause.
They are effectively abstracting away the issue of black people as being under siege by a racist white supremacist police force, and what wider than that, a white supremacist system.
And that's an inherently pro-white supremacist thing to do in the context.
Right, I mean, and the whole point of like, okay, we're gonna spark the boogaloo, And, like, create a civil war to, like, end police violence or whatever, you know?
You know, who's going to be, like, the primary victims of this civil war?
It's going to be, you know, people in, you know, more marginalized communities.
Yeah.
Like, like the, you know, so I doubt that you're really going to see a real, um, Yeah.
like effect there i think that like to some degree i think what that exists to do is to sort of prove their non-racist bona fides like you know yeah because a lot of like what you see and particularly in these i mean you know you see this from liberals as well and i mean some quote-unquote leftists he said through gritted teeth um of uh you know leftists in name only as far as i'm concerned
but but who you know do pay lip service to uh to these sorts of racial issues into this sort of like you know system of white supremacy as a way of sort of like pushing an already kind of existing ideology
For people who might be interested in sort of following them but are not interested in sort of but but who want to kind of see the lip service be paid right you know and so it's not like you know the Democratic Party again I'm very frustrated with American politics at the moment trying to talk about it but like the Democratic Party spends a lot of time in election year talking a lot about African Americans and the issues that they face and you know really kind of listening to them and then like once they win or lose an election
It kind of goes away until they need the votes again, you know, and they don't really do a whole lot.
But the Republicans are actively trying to, like, destroy African-American communities, so you end up kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place on that if you're an African-American person.
Again, I'm white, I do not, you know, I'm not trying to speak for anyone, but, you know, there is, you do kind of see that issue over and over again in various movements.
So I think that some of this, like, trying to kind of reach out to Black Lives Matter is less about really thinking they're going to find people in Black Lives Matter who want to sort of join their movement as much as it sort of proves how not Nazis they are.
Yeah, it's kind of performative for the benefit of people watching rather than for the benefit of Black Lives Matter.
Right, right.
Yeah, but I think some of the confusion stems from the fact that this is not a nice, neatly coherent, ideologically coherent group the way people would like it to be so that they can get an easy handle on it.
We see a lot of, you know, it's a lot of like questions of like, you know, there was again sort of another Twitter thread where, you know, saying, the Boogaloo is not a movement.
It's not a movement.
And so then the question becomes, well, What is a movement?
You know, in the same way, like, what is racism?
What does racist mean?
You know, what does, what does any of this mean?
It depends on how you define movement, right?
whether it's a movement or multiple movements that are sort of working, kind of moving in one direction or sometimes working across purposes, you know, like, you know, it's not like one thing.
It's kind of multiple things that sort of all go under one name.
It's more apt to call it a meme, you know.
The Boogaloo is a meme.
It's sort of being adopted by kind of various people who are in some ways kind of working together and in some ways working, in some ways don't like each other, but still sort of like pushing to some degree the same sort of general kind of idea.
And so, yeah, it gets very complicated.
But the point is that, like, you can't do this in 280 characters and kind of describe it without kind of really kind of defining your terms very concretely, you know.
No, I mean, as recent years have shown us very amply, the meme is something that lends itself very well to fascistic politics precisely because it's kind of contentless.
No, as recent years have shown us very amply, the meme is something that lends itself very well to fascistic politics, precisely because it's kind of contentless.
And, you know, famously, fascism is a scavenger ideology.
And famously, fascism is a scavenger ideology.
It will take whatever it wants or needs from any other set of ideas on a completely ad hoc basis and just use them, use ideas that don't fit together, jam them together and use them cynically.
And this is because fascist politics is essentially contentless.
It doesn't actually have ideas.
What it has is a set of things that it's against, and everything else is pure aesthetics.
And I think what we see here with the Boogaloo is that it's pure aesthetics.
It's the aesthetic of civil war, insurrection, you know, Settling accounts with the government, with the powers that be.
And that appeals... because it's an incredibly simple idea that you can adapt to all sorts of different contexts.
It appeals to all sorts of different people.
But it's... the way it's used by fascists is... it's pretty dangerous.
Absolutely.
And it's also like, you know, these are people that sort of like, I love, like, embrace the aesthetics of Civil War.
Like, you know, I know people personally who have been tear gassed like a hundred times in the last month or so since, in the last two weeks, three weeks.
I know people who have taken rubber bullets.
I know people who, like, police cars have tried to run over During a protest.
The Boogaloo Boys are not prepared to deal with that in the slightest.
To my knowledge, none of them has ever been close enough to the action.
They mostly stand on top of mini-malls with rifles to defend them from the terrible looters.
Yeah, they've played Call of Duty, you know.
But they like the idea of dressing up and going out with guns and sort of cosplaying.
Which is why, I mean, I was listening to Robert Evans, a friend of the show, on the QAnon Anonymous podcast recently.
That's a good episode.
It's a good episode, yeah.
It's a podcast about QAnon, it's not a QAnon podcast.
A very important distinction.
I have a feeling most of our listeners will know what it is.
Yeah, but if you haven't listened to that, that's pretty good, and he's quite amusing on this subject.
They want to be out there holding guns and posing, but they don't actually necessarily want to be up against the police in a pitched battle, so they go and guard the Hobby Lobby.
It's great, it's great.
I feel like we should, I want to read a couple of these or at least sort of like summarize, I don't want to read the exact words and I don't want to kind of expose people who might have commented on my Twitter feed to the Nazis listening to this show.
So I'm not going to read the exact language, but I do think some of these questions we should probably get through before we wrap up here.
So if you have kind of anything else to, I mean, I guess we can kind of go through these and, you know, just kind of throw in what you feel like you need to, if that makes sense.
Yeah, sure, go for it.
All right.
A question, sorry, I'm definitely not going to get through all these.
We covered most of these issues already, and so if I didn't get to yours, hopefully I tried to cover it already.
I did get a question about how the Libertarian Party, capital L, capital P, has responded to this um and like sort of how like if if how they're kind of responding to the boogaloo um i have not like i don't really follow the capital l capital p libertarian party really at all so i'm not sure kind of what like joe jorgensen or whoever um is saying about this stuff
um i will say that i have like some kind of libertarian friends on facebook who were very much like sharing like the some of the some of the like flyers like particularly one reaching out to Black Lives Matter and kind of going like, I agree with all of this Now, there are methods.
I'm not sure I agree with that.
So I imagine that's sort of like the respectable libertarian perspective.
This is just what happens with fascistic politics.
Look, I remember the BNP manifesto coming out 10 years ago and people on the left were saying, there's stuff in here that I agree with.
They always do that!
Anyway, sorry, go on.
Somebody asked about the term boy, B-O-I.
Because some of the some of the media around it and some of the You know some of the tweets have been boogaloo boy with an eye And so boy with an eye is a term that I don't know the exact history but it comes out of I believe gay male culture and then has sort of been appropriated into like a larger queer communities and sort of like kink communities will use it of various kinds and use it in various ways.
It seems to be in this context being used to sort of like demasculinize the boogaloo crowd in terms of sort of like going like, oh, like kind of soy boy, like look at the effeniment, like they sound like they're so tough, but really they're effeminate and using this term from like gay culture to do that. but really they're effeminate and using this term from like And that seems kind of really distasteful to me.
It's not my term to use or not use, but I, we should avoid it.
Like, it just seems kind of, you know, not, not a cool thing.
Somebody asked, phrases, like what slang would give somebody ways of boogaloo.
Boogaloo, big igloo, big luau, the hawaiian shirt, talking about civil war, talking a lot about guns, and like wanting to fight the police.
I don't know if there's like a particular language that is gonna, if you're in a boogaloo crowd you're probably gonna know it.
Somebody asking about like BLM, somebody kind of got into the BLM chat.
I think we covered that sort of entryism already.
The way I'd say to deal with them if you think you got a boogaloo, if you're running a board that is kind of devoted to Black Lives Matter or sort of racial justice or anti-racism, and you get a boogaloo guy kind of running in there trying to start some shit, Probably ban him.
That's probably the best way unless you feel like you've got somebody who really wants to sort of approach and kind of do the thing.
What if they get involved with your protest?
I don't really just treat activism on that level.
So, you know, like these guys are largely armed and, you know, I would keep my distance and, you know, kind of treat that as a security risk.
That's sort of my goal with that.
And, yeah, that's pretty much it.
I think we covered everything else, really, in terms of sort of the immediate questions I got.
And I may kind of put out and do more of this, kind of ask people to sort of put questions in because it is nice to sort of know what people are talking about.
That way I can sort of cover it during the main conversation.
But yeah, no.
I think we kind of got it across.
It's kind of hard to know whether people are going to be confused.
Do you think there's anything that we didn't cover?
I think the note to hit really is, you know, this is still inherently white supremacist, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, no.
It's implicitly if not explicitly white supremacist, right?
These are not leftists who are kind of going out there, this is a pretty explicitly racist No.
kind of idea.
This does not match what left-wing organization looks like.
Left-wingers talking about, even, you know, like, guillotine memes are not talking about, let's go out and blood run in the streets as we indiscriminately kill people.
That's class war.
That's talking about the ruling class.
I mean, this just isn't this kind of violent revolution talk.
It's just not part of left-wing organizing.
So it does just kind of like, I don't kind of understand how you can sort of be on the left in any kind of meaningful way and then not kind of understand that this just doesn't match anything.
Like, I find it difficult to believe that, like, in Any ostensibly left-wing movement is really going to be convinced by this, despite the fact that they may be trying to do entryism in that way.
It just doesn't match what left-wing organizing looks like.
Now, they may peel off some left-wingers by going, like, go out in a blaze of glory and kill the cops or whatever.
I'm not saying that's not going to happen, but it doesn't match what left-wingers do when we organize.
It doesn't match the kinds of activities that we do.
It is explicitly a right-wing thing to think about and a right-wing way of viewing the world.
You may disagree with me on that, but you know, it strikes me as, you know, when people go, like, well, is it right-wing?
Well, yeah, it's just not, like, this is, okay, let's kind of hit this point, you know, like, the whole point of, like, what Mikey and Ike and what the alt-right people going back to 2013, 2015, 2016 have been trying to do Yeah.
is to be sort of the far-right figures and provide cover for the not-quite-as-far-right figures who are, by any reasonable definition of the term, pretty fucking far-right, right?
Yeah.
Suddenly, Milo Yiannopoulos is not a far-right figure because Richard Spencer is sitting there.
And then Richard Spencer is not a far-right figure because there's this far-right Dylan Roof fans sitting further to the right of him.
And so suddenly, well, Richard, I'm just a reasonable voice.
This is the whole thing I'm talking about in the Matt Heimblok episode, right?
The one we did, you know, is he's sitting there going like, well, look, I'm not saying be violent.
I'm not as crazy kooky as those guys.
I'm just saying maybe we should think of white nationalism as a...
Yeah.
ideology that is worth discussing.
Yep.
And we need to kind of reach out to people's material needs and that they don't like trans people.
And I get to be the reasonable voice.
And if we allow them to play that game, they win.
Right? - Yep, yep, yep. - And that's not to say we don't approach this with nuance, that's not to say we don't approach this with an understanding of the material reality that's out here.
And that's not to say that we don't understand these things for what they are.
That's what this podcast is meant to do, is to understand these things for what they are as best as we can.
And it is confusing, because it's this big mess of people all doing different things, and all kind of doing this, like, kind of existing in this kind of complicated rhetorical space, where they're pretending to be things they're not.
In some cases, they're pretending to not be things they are.
In other cases, etc., etc.
But ultimately we have to understand this as a right-wing phenomenon and if we start treating it as, oh, it's like left and right sides and anybody can be part of the boogaloo because, like, they're not Nazis, then the Nazis are winning.
Period.
Yeah, absolutely.
It is confusing.
If you want to study the internecine ins and outs of who thinks what and who says what in this subculture, knock yourself out.
But don't let the confusion of that, because it is confusing, because it's complicated, But don't let the confusion of that, you know, cloud your clarity on the central point.
All this stuff is kind of just aesthetics.
It's empty signifiers.
All the left-wing stuff, all the progressive stuff, you know, maybe even some of the people saying it believe it.
It doesn't matter.
That doesn't matter.
If they buy into the idea of the boogaloo and the idea of the sort of the, you know, to get in there and accelerate towards the great Civil war in the sense of a kind of populist uprising of the people against the government and everything.
What they're doing is they are recycling basically a Nazi meme.
They have allowed a Nazi concept that's been injected into their online... You know, if they are one of these people that genuinely doesn't think they're far right, they think they're something else.
What's happening is that they're being used... It's like a virus.
They've been injected with the genetic material, and they're being used as a carrier for it, and they're spreading it around.
And the actual content of the idea is, as I say, it's just... I mean, I think it's telling that it comes from... It's a meme, ultimately.
I don't like to use disease factor metaphors for complicated rhetorical reasons, but it's a meme.
They've been injected by this meme, this Boogaloo meme, Yeah, like they're kind of pushing it and kind of putting it in like kind of diluted form into other people and that you know It's sort of like I don't like Again, like we've talked for an hour and a half here I don't know how much of this ends up in the final episode But we've been speaking for an hour and a half and kind of going through some detailed stuff And there's still a lot of confusion because this is a confusing thing, but ultimately the bukulu is a meme it's spreading in this like complicated way in this kind of complicated space and
But there are certain things that we just sort of need to sort of fundamentally keep our eyes on, and the fact that this is a right-wing phenomenon that encompasses a slightly complex set of ideologies, but kind of is within one movement, and that it's ultimately all pushing towards an anti-left, an anti-socialist, an anti... really anti what I would consider truly kind of combating the evils of systemic racism and white supremacy, That's what it's trying to do.
It's trying to be against me, us, and hopefully the people listening to this podcast.
So ultimately, it is, you know, on that level, and this is a complicated term, and Jack is probably getting mad at me, it is almost by definition a fascist movement.
Like, by definition.
Yeah, no, I agree with that.
And it is, I mean, I was using the disease metaphor, you know, to use the viral metaphor, which may be a little bit sensitive at the moment.
It is a perfect metaphor for this because, you know, a virus is not a living thing.
It's like a set of rogue instructions and its only purpose is to just make your cells do shit that they shouldn't do, right?
So this idea, it's not alive.
It's not a living idea.
It doesn't have content in the way that actual ideas and actual ideologies and actual conversations have.
It's like this rogue set of signifiers that latches on to other ideas and other communities and makes them do things.
And what it's making them do is not necessarily fascist, but it tends towards fascism.
is an inherent, you know, it's not necessarily fascist, but it tends towards fascism.
It's fascistic.
And that's because, I mean, I think it's very telling that it's like, it's based on the idea of another civil war, Well, what was the first civil war?
The first civil war was a secessionist uprising by, you know, it's a little bit early for what we would call fascism.
Yeah, the Confederacy is a bit early to be technically what we would call fascism, because fascism is a product of the 20th century, but it's very clearly proto-fascist, and of course it gave birth to the Ku Klux Klan, which is very legitimately a fascist movement, because it's based on white supremacy, right?
And some of the earliest of what we would call concentration camps seem to come out of the American Civil War as well.
Absolutely, yeah, although it also comes out of imperialist war generally.
But what you have here is an idea that latches onto a genuine movement, a genuine people's insurrection, Against police brutality, police authoritarianism, police-supported white supremacy.
A genuine ground-up, bottom-up movement of working people, black people, against this oppression of their community.
And these people are coming in and they are, again, it's like the rogue strip of genetic material of the virus.
It's attaching itself to this and it's trying to sort of inject itself into it.
And its own content is it doesn't have the race analysis, it doesn't have the class analysis, it doesn't have any of this.
It just has this completely Contentless, deracinated, sort of populist, I-hate-the-government thing.
And it's a danger.
It's a danger to a genuine people's movement.
And, if you think about what they want, even the people who are the cuddly libertarians who think, oh no, I'm in favour of Black Lives Matter, I hate the police.
Like, they get what they want, right?
It's going to be the black people that are fed into the mincer of this second civil war, and at the end of it the structures of capital are not going to be gotten rid of, they're going to still be there, and whether it's the state police or whether it's your corporation's private law and order force or whatever,
Libertarianism always, it amputates history, so you are where you are, you have the liberty and the freedom to stay there, but we don't redress historic injustice, we don't do anything to address injustice generally, or oppression generally, and they get their version of the uprising, they get their version of the revolution, the people they think, maybe even think they're on the side of, they're going to be right back where they were, probably even worse off.
Yeah, I mean, it becomes the end of any kind of like welfare state or anything like that, you know, if the libertarians get their way.
And the same people who are being brutalized by being pushed into, you know, carrying a counterfeit $20 bill and being brutalized by the Minneapolis police.
Don't have this public police force to deal with now.
It's the security cops that run the monolith super corporation Walmart that they had to go to instead and those people work under no particular set of sets of Civil liberties beyond, you know, don't steal, hypothetically.
But of course, that wouldn't happen anyway, because it's mad bollocks.
What would happen would be fascism.
That's the fantasy version.
That's the happy version of what they want.
Right, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The actual outcome would be fascism.
Yeah, no, exactly.
Okay, are we done?
That's all I got for now.
Okay.
Now we no longer have to talk about the boogaloo.
We are now done.
Surely, we've recorded this episode, the concept will now be thoroughly explained, the whole of the mainstream media will listen to this episode, and we will be heroes for clarifying all this, and then the idea will then go away, because once everyone understands it, all the people kind of pushing race forward will just go, oh, rats.
Daniel Harper and Jack Ram, they've just... We would have done it if it weren't for those meddling podcasters.
And then the whole thing, they'll all go away.
And then we can go back and talk about Dr. Who again or something.
It's great to have such a... I'd like to thank the Pulitzer Organization in advance for my award, and CNN in advance for my massive salary.
Yeah, clearly, clearly.
You can work for CNN, I'm going to go work for MSNBC.
Ah, we got it covered then, haven't we?
Yeah.
We'll be working for rival news networks, but, you know, that fat salary, that's what I'm looking forward to.
Or augmenting the Soros check, obviously.
Jesus Christ.
Anyway, yeah.
Okay, so that was episode fifty... Fifty-seven, I think, yeah.
Fifty-seven?
I think it's fifty-seven.
And thanks for listening, everybody.
And thanks for everything you do for the show.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for recommending us to everybody.
Thanks to those of you wonderful people who help us out on Patreon.
It genuinely does help us to do this.
And we will be back.
I think, again, we're on a roll at the moment.
Hopefully next week with... Do we know what we're doing next week?
Are we going back to the original plan?
We're going back to the original plan.
We're going to cover the... We're going to go back and do another Addendum to 52.
I mean, I thought the episode was fine.
You know, I don't know.
People download it through their RSS feed.
Maybe people just skipped that one.
But I would recommend people listen to 53.
I think there's some really great stuff in that one.
But we're going to kind of go back to that same idea.
We're going to cover basically the sort of the way the Daily Showa treats trans people and the way the kind of far-right, this alt-right, dissident-right neo-Nazi shitheads treat trans people and the way they treated it in that episode and the way that I talked about the way that they treated it in that episode.
So we'll kind of go back and kind of revisit some of that again, which I re-listened to that.
I re-watched that video actually this week, and now I get to do it again next week because this episode got in the way.
So thank you for forcing me to do that.
So tune in again for Episode 58, or as I like to call it, Episode 52 Part 3.
And as always, the third part of the trilogy will be the best.
It'll be lovely.
So tune in again for episode 58, or as I like to call it, episode 52, part three.
Yeah.
And as always, the third part of the trilogy will be the best.
Yeah, clearly, that's always the way it works.
That was I Don't Speak German.
Thanks for listening.
We're on iTunes and show up in most podcast catchers.
You can find Daniel's Twitter, along with links to pretty much everything he does, at at Daniel E Harper.
You can find my Twitter at at underscore Jack underscore Graham underscore.
Daniel and I both have Patreons, and any contribution you can make genuinely does help us to do this, though it also really helps if you just listen and maybe talk about us online to spread the word.
