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June 17, 2020 - I Don't Speak German

01:09:21

56: Digital vs. Analog Analysis of Nazi Podcasts (with Megan Squire)

This week, Daniel and Jack are honoured to be joined by Prof. Megan Squire, Antifascist data-miner. Geeking-out ensues. You're gonna love it. CONTENT WARNING Megan's Twitter: @MeganSquire0 https://facstaff.elon.edu/msquire/ https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com/fellows/megan-squire/ https://www.wired.com/story/free-speech-issue-antifa-data-mining/

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	Hello and welcome to I Don't Speak German, the anti-fascist podcast in which I, Jack Graham, and my friend Daniel Harper have conversations about the far-right's conversations.
	Every episode comes with a big content warning.
	And welcome back to I Don't Speak German episode 56, I think I'm right in saying.
	And, yeah, I'm here as usual, Jack Graham, he, him, and I'm here with, as usual, my friend Daniel Harper, he, him also, and it is our immense honour and pleasure to be joined this week by Professor Megan Squire.
	Hi, Megan.
	Hey, how's it going?
	She, her, by the way, for doing pronouns.
	Yeah, we do that now.
	It's a good idea.
	I think it's just going to be a bit of an informal chat this week, but of course Megan's going to be very interesting.
	And Daniel, before we get started on that, I understand that I'm hanging my head in shame here at the I Don't Speak German office within the Antifa Central Command Complex because we've made another David Duke autobiography audiobook length-style goof, haven't we?
	We made an error of monumental proportions, which absolutely affects our last episode.
	I actually do feel really bad for this, just because I was more interested in Heimbach than Jesse Morton, and so I didn't go back into my notes.
	The error is pretty obvious once you understand anything about Jesse Morton's history, but I claim that Jesse Morton was an ISIS propagandist, when in fact he was an Al-Qaeda recruiter.
	And for that, everything else that we said in that episode is obviously completely wrong and has no validity.
	And clearly, Jesse Martin, Light Upon Light, are not laundering white nationalist ideology in the guise of de-radicalization.
	Clearly not, no.
	He assured us, didn't he, that we made lots of other mistakes.
	He made lots of other mistakes.
	Like he said, well, actually, George Lincoln Rockwell was a commander.
	And it's like, well, I never said he wasn't.
	The whole point is like, do you deserve, does that shitbag deserve that level of respect?
	And the answer for any reasonable person is no.
	But Matt Heimbach continues to use those honorifics, which makes me question the authenticity there.
	Sincerity.
	That's all right.
	just exactly what Heimbach's trying to do yeah we covered this all in the last episode I apologize for kind of bringing you into this maybe slightly complex political situation Megan but thank you for joining us anyway I will persevere so yeah we will cover this in more detail in the future I have requested publicly that Jesse Morton give me contact information from at Heimbach where I can speak with him privately.
	And so for now the ball is in his court.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, so we look forward to further updates on that.
	But yeah, this is a guest episode.
	We're very pleased to have Megan with us.
	And I'm usually not present for guest episodes, as regular listeners will know.
	But I've been meaning to try to get in on guest episodes for a while now.
	So this is the first time I'm going to be present for.
	But I'm going to be taking a back seat because, obviously, I'm the idiot that the people who know stuff explain things to.
	That's my role.
	In this show, so I'm now going to step back a little and kind of hand the reins over to our very own Daniel Harper.
	So Daniel, over to you.
	Thank you, Jack, for that elegant introduction.
	And speaking of introductions, Megan... I'm hoping to break into local news one day.
	Anyway, sorry, go on.
	You'll start off doing the weather.
	That's the way it is.
	That's the way to handle it.
	Yeah, no.
	Megan, thank you, as always, for, you know, we've been chatting for a little bit off, you know, off mic, as it were, and so I think we've got some things we definitely want to talk about.
	I'm just wondering, because I am completely unprofessional, I'm wondering if you would sort of introduce yourself to the audience and kind of tell us... Yeah, yeah.
	You are what you do.
	I mean, you're a computer scientist, you study far right extremism, using doing a lot of networking models.
	But like all this computer science stuff is well above my pay grade.
	So if you could, if you could, you could help us out just kind of let the audience who may not know who you are, know who you are.
	Sure thing.
	Yeah, it's not that deep.
	But I am a computer scientist, I specifically a data scientist, and I specialize in data mining.
	So that means like, using facts and figures and images and just all kinds of things we consider as data to understand problems and the problems that I'm focused on right now are happening in our country politically so white nationalist extremism right-wing political violence things like that So, I'm using those skills to try to understand that social problem.
	I do a lot of network analysis.
	I also do financial analysis.
	I'm working on a big project with that right now, which I'm very excited to be starting on.
	I do other things too, like audio analysis.
	I've got a project going on with podcasts where I'm looking at not just the network of the hosts and guests, but also the content of the podcasts and trying to figure out what software we can use to automatically produce transcripts and so forth.
	So, yeah.
	That would in no way be useful to me in my work.
	It would be useful to a lot of people.
	So it's like generally known that the worst part of these, you know, folks that do our work or like analysts that study this kind of stuff, Like the worst thing is having to sit there and listen to like three, four hour long Nazi podcasts multiple times a week.
	And so wouldn't it be great if we could just have a transcript or better yet, if we could have like some some data mining that would automatically tell us what the topics were that they talked about and whether they intersected with the news or like what keywords stood out and things like that.
	And so that was my original idea two years ago when I started this project.
	But it turns out that there's a bunch of problems.
	One is that so the usual format of these Nazi podcasts is kind of like the morning zoo format where they're all talking over each other and joking and laughing.
	And that makes it really hard to do speech to text software because it's hard to differentiate the voices and because they talk all over each other and they kind of slur their words sometimes.
	I don't know if they have a couple cocktails or what, but it's sometimes hard to understand what they're saying.
	And then they also have a very specialized vocabulary.
	So like all these jargon and keywords and stuff like that.
	And so it makes it really hard for the software to figure out what the heck's going on.
	So the results have been not super great, but I'm trying to salvage.
	I have long had a Simon Says account, which I was hoping would be very useful in terms of being able to produce like usable transcripts for, you know, sort of individual episodes that I needed to extract information from.
	And that is just not.
	Yeah, total sympathy.
	I've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of episodes at this point.
	Automatically feeding them through multiple different platforms and there's some are better than others some shows are better than others for doing this on but At the end of the day like I can't get enough data to do a systematic study.
	That's really that great right now I'm I'm kind of forced to just do like keyword spotting Which is an idea I got from reading an article about what the NSA does when they listen to all the transcripts by the way or what they used to do like ten years ago, so I feel like I'm I'm like A tenth of what they were doing 10 years ago, so I don't know if that's going to improve.
	I can only imagine the FBI being very useful in this situation, except they're probably not inclined to share their information with people for both secrecy reasons and ideological agreeing with the white nationalists.
	I am doing keyword spotting, trying to do topic modeling and stuff, just trying to figure out what are they talking about in general.
	The dataset that I made also includes when they post a podcast, sometimes they'll do time stamped topics.
	I don't know if you've seen that before.
	You know at 10 minutes we talked about this and then at 13 minutes we talked about this and so those I'm trying to use to help train the models to learn what they're actually talking about but the problem is they use like jokey language and stuff when they do that so the model gets confused and then I have to train it to be more racist and like it's you know One day the AI is going to rise up and it's going to be like coming after me because you taught us to be racist.
	Like it's terrible.
	The AI is going to be like, but the Jews, the Jews are trying to delete me or something.
	Maybe they wouldn't blame me.
	I don't know.
	I feel like they're going to blame me.
	They're going to be like, we were nice and then you, you made us racist.
	So I don't know.
	Um, yeah, it's, it's very fraught.
	It's also expensive.
	So the software, like it's not cheap.
	And especially at scale, these are like, Three four hour long podcast most of them and there's hundreds thousands of podcasts in my system.
	So like how do you even treat?
	I have no idea what it's like.
	You do know what it's like?
	I feel like you're doing digitally what I'm doing analog in a very weird way, you know It's not an either-or so we so what I've kind of come to is that we're gonna need a digital pass and then a human a human second pass and
	Like, I can maybe tell you, like, okay, this is the part of the podcast that's actually interesting, or I can, like, strip out the junky, stupid parts, and, like, you can listen to this part where they're talking about Charlottesville, or, like, they're talking about, you know, there's some rally or some event, like, or whatever it is you're interested in, but I'm kind of using that as my fallback position since I can't produce perfect transcripts.
	It's like, well, maybe I can just at least give people pointers or something.
	I don't know.
	And then, you know, failing all of that, the network that I'm creating is kind of cool.
	It's basically just showing over time, 2004-ish, 2005-ish time frame all the way to now, so about 15 years of this podcast culture, podcast ecosystem, which is now the streaming ecosystem.
	And then, you know, so who are the celebrities and what guests co-appear?
	stuff like that.
	So that will at least be useful, but then the text is really what I wanted to get.
	I don't know.
	We'll see.
	It's a work in progress, and it's been like two years.
	Ridiculous.
	No, no.
	Believe me, I understand.
	I empathize.
	And one of the things, the thing with, you know, kind of like, I'm doing analog, what you're doing digitally, and I really find there's a real, like, I have a real, especially talking to you now, which is the first time that we've actually spoken through voice, although we've been, like, messaging for a little while.
	One of the things that I find interesting is that, like, you've often sort of, like, put out papers and put out articles that sort of systemize the same, the ideas that I've kind of just kind of had percolating and sort of the general, like I have this kind of impressionistic sense of sort of where things are going.
	And then you put out an actually professional thing that actually sort of like proves the thing that I was already thinking for a while.
	And it takes these networks about, and we don't have to talk about podcasts, but I think that's kind of what you and I are gonna just kind of rotate around We have a lot of notes to share about the podcast networks, although your work goes so far beyond that.
	Yeah, I mean the stuff that people notice, like It ends up being borne out in the data sometimes.
	Sometimes there's surprises, but a lot of times the reason why, you know, you get a gut feeling about something and then the data analysis is there to kind of back that up or give you even more facts about it.
	I had a theory, or not a theory, but an inkling for a while that, for example, TRS was kind of, or the Daily Show in particular, was kind of waning in their guests and just kind of losing a little bit of steam.
	The guys seemed tired of it.
	They literally started calling themselves tedious.
	What are you doing?
	You're just cashing a check.
	What are we doing?
	And then when you collect the data on it, you can literally see the amount of guests and the amount of energy around the show, the lengths of the shows, everything's kind of trailing off over time.
	I did plots last week to show folks.
	Last week I had 16 shows in the database and I tracked the number of guests per month over time.
	Most of them do reach a peak where they just kind of fall off and they just quit.
	They just they kind of lose their mojo a little bit.
	And as you can see that in the data, you can see that in the plots, but it's something that I had thought was happening just based on just seeing, you know, the traffic and so on.
	The Daily Show went pro like right at right around like the week of Unite the Right effectively, right, you know, and they started doing not like one episode a week, but three episodes a week, one of which is behind a paywall.
	Yeah.
	Plus they sort of like brought back fascination around that time like they kind of went.
	They kind of did the big like professionalization right about that moment, which is kind of their peak.
	The problem that became that after Unite the Right, and particularly as, you know, kind of early 2018, everybody started fighting amongst themselves.
	And so, where previously they had had this kind of major, you know, they were sort of like doing these large, like what they call death panels, you know, the panels from the shows.
	Afterwards, they really weren't seeing anything at all.
	I'm not trying to explain this to you, I'm explaining it to the audience, just to be clear.
	Sorry, not trying to mansplain on this.
	I call it mansplaining when I do it, so we'll do it to each other, it's fine.
	But they really do not even, I mean, I count on one hand the number of guests they've had on their shows, on any of their shows, in the last year or so.
	Like, I mean, it really is like they just don't do that anymore.
	They're very insular.
	And even when they do have guests, it's usually someone who's from one of their other, like, kind of tight-knit community, whereas previously they were a real, like, kind of an outreach almost.
	They were really trying to bring in people from as many of these different kind of places as possible.
	And I see that in your data sets where you see kind of, like, the TRS network and then kind of the various kind of parts of it sort of going off and kind of connecting to each other.
	But then very few little tendrils that sort of go off into these kind of other places.
	And in particular, there's one node that I saw where there's, like, one connection over into the Goitok world.
	And I'm like, that's Eric Stryker.
	That's Eric Stryker.
	Yeah, probably.
	I mean I could pull up the names and like we can look at and go into it's super interesting I can't wait to find a way to let people play with the data so right now it's in like some specialized software but I think people would really get a kick out of like And it's all, you know, based-- like the data sets would be available to public data.
	So-- but yeah, it's just hard to get that-- get away for people to actually play with the data.
	But yeah, there's subcultures.
	There's what you're talking about, the person who kind of ties together multiple communities.
	We call that a bridge node.
	That's an interesting factor.
	There's also something called a gray cardinal, sometimes network scientists look for.
	This is a person who's not considered like the leader, so they're not the Pope, for example.
	They're the cardinal off to the side who's kind of like making connections and serves an integral, I guess, role in the network, but isn't necessarily a high-name person.
	We've long thought that J.O.D.
	LeRae, I've long thought that J.O.D.
	LeRae was kind of doing that, but not on the shows, just sort of like underneath.
	Yeah, he would be a named person.
	I think the one that was surprising to me, especially in the early days of doing this when I didn't have 16 shows, I had more like 10 or 12, was someone that goes by Cathedral Princess, Kathy Princess.
	Do you remember her?
	I do.
	She was one of the big Darwin Digest persons.
	So she was serving as a bridge between sort of this women's side of the podcast, which was Helicopter Mom podcast, and then these other variety.
	We should definitely talk about Helicopter Mom in a minute, but yes, please.
	Right, so like other variety of podcasts.
	She was actually serving as a pretty important node, and since I've grown the network out, her role has shrunk a little bit, just statistically.
	I haven't seen her around at all.
	No.
	And so that's the other problem, is that because her appearances have capped, right?
	So she's not continuing to grow, whereas other folks like Mark Collett, for example, or Jason Cohn, people like that have continued to grow and add more to their numbers, whereas hers kind of stopped.
	But there's some people who just serve that bridge role.
	They kind of have their own podcast, but then they also do a lot of guest appearances.
	They're going to be occupying a more central position in the network, I guess.
	I think this is the moment where we should lean into some of these particular characters that you and I both have a geeky interest in.
	in.
	All right.
	And just before, Jack, do you think the listeners, do you think we've left the listeners behind at this point?
	No, I don't think so.
	I think you're doing fine.
	Well done.
	I'm going to give you a little audio pat on the head.
	You're doing very well indeed.
	I got a couple of complaints on the ones where I was doing things with guests where people went like, you completely lost me in the first 15 minutes.
	Just wanted to be clear there.
	In particular, Cathy Princess, Cathedral Princess, who seems to have come out of that NRX world.
	In particular, she did a couple of episodes on Myth of the 20th Century, which connects into the social matter scene, and she was kind of a frequent co-host on The Darwin Digest, which is one of the first ones that I was really kind of like following and then kind of just Disappeared at a certain point.
	I think they did 50 episodes in episode 50 was Jews with Kevin McDonald if I remember correctly You know It may not be a 50 episodes, but you know something like that but you said she had you kind of seen her in some of the Maybe some of the TradWife circles?
	Yeah, she was doing Helicopter Mom for a little bit, and if you'll indulge me, I will look up exactly what shows she's been on.
	So she, in my database, is number 64, and I have a note here, Thash Britannia.
	Yes, she was on that one, I forgot about it.
	She was technically Eastern European, I think, or Balkan, if I remember correctly, but she was living in Britain.
	So if I sort her by air date, she was on the Daily Show of First on episode 58 back in 2015.
	She was on a show called Gay, Homosexual, Flat Earth LARPing.
	Lovely.
	And then went on Fashion of the Nation twice, and the episode titles for both were Cathedral Princess, so she was clearly the star.
	Then she went on Helicopter Mom, where she was on a show called Mom Science.
	And then she went on Third Rail, Waifu Vending Machines, which is a TRS show.
	And then she went on two episodes of Rebel Yell, and that's the last I see of her in February of 2017.
	So this is the kind of thing that data set, even though I can't do the like perfect transcripts, I am able to track someone like through their kind of podcasting history, which is kind of cool, I guess kind of fun.
	Right, and so she had like kind of a deep connection with TRS, at least in terms of her kind of public appearances.
	It sounds like 20% of those were TRS shows, you know.
	Yeah, Daily Show, Two Fashion Nations, and Third Row, but then she did Helicopter Mom and Two Rebel Yells, so she's kind of like 60-40.
	When were the Rebel Yells?
	Sorry, I wasn't paying attention.
	They were later.
	They were 2016 and 2017, and the Helicopter Mom was 2017.
	Rebel Yell was still pretty close, even though they were called TRS Confederates for a long time.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And only kind of later did they really kind of make the clean break from TRS when Mikey and I started to be an asshole.
	They seceded, you mean.
	They seceded, yeah.
	Yeah, if you went super down into that, you can see from the data here, if I just included those shows in and the guests and hosts, you could probably see something like that break.
	Yeah, no, I'm sure.
	Rebel Yell and the whole Identity Dixie crew, that's a network in and of itself where they have connections into some of these really kind of weird corners of this subculture as well.
	So I included Good Morning Y-Merica, which is another show that they run, just to see some of that crossover.
	And those guys didn't really do that much with that show.
	But I could probably pull some more shows in from that network just to see.
	Because I only have three right now.
	Right.
	ID shows.
	I should probably ask.
	Yeah, I just find it interesting that they bring in people.
	I mean, they just recently did an episode with, what's his name, Jared Howell.
	Who is like Cantwell's last fan.
	Yeah, he's running the show apparently for Cantwell.
	He is.
	He's had the show so to speak, which is one of the most insufferable shows on the entire network.
	He's literally running interviews with Cantwell every few and that's the only reason I started tuning back in was to listen for the Cantwell content while Cantwell isn't able to make his own show because he's behind bars.
	I don't have that one in the database.
	Do you think I should add it?
	I don't know.
	I haven't done it.
	He doesn't really do guests.
	Yeah, that's the problem.
	It's interesting only to people who are Cantwell completists, which no one should be that.
	Which, to be honest, if that's you, seek psychiatric help before anything else.
	Yeah, yeah, he's like the last last major defender of Chris Cantwell.
	Um, but yeah, no Helicopter Mom is a really interesting show Talk about that from your perspective.
	Well, I don't know what happened to it.
	I'd like to and and it's hard to get the Recordings of it.
	They're very sporadic and all over the you know, it's a little bit here and there.
	It's kind of hard to Build a good data set of it.
	But the Luckily, I pulled the metadata in, so that means the show name, the air date, how long it was, who was appearing, the description of the show.
	I pulled all of that in early, before a lot of that was gone, but the MP3s are almost all gone.
	I don't have all of it, but I have a big chunk of it.
	Yeah.
	I didn't realize that was a particular interest of yours.
	It kind of is.
	I did a project on women a couple of years ago, women in the far-right movements, so it probably would have been more relevant then.
	I kind of keep an eye on the women because there are so few of them, it's a little easier.
	Did you see Emily Ukas came back on that?
	I did not, no.
	One of the things I was going to say about Helicopter Mom was that they kind of, the last time I really looked at it in earnest, other than it just being on my graphs and in the data set, but one time I really, really looked at it was when there was that whole kerfuffle in Indiana about the farmer's market, and there was really looked at it was when there was that whole kerfuffle in Indiana about the farmer's market, and there was a person going, I Right, right, right.
	She went by Volk Mom, and there was a Volk Mom that had a little farm and did that kind of stuff that appeared on Helicopter Mom, and so I'm pretty sure it's the same person, although she didn't go by Sarah.
	She went by Sharon, but it might be the same woman.
	So that's really trying to figure out if that was the same person or not without any audio files was exciting, but that was really the last time I looked into Helicopter Mom. - Well, my interest in the helicopter mom was in particular like in their very first episode Like, I think in the first 10 minutes, they're like, well, you know, all gay people should just be put to death.
	It's like, you know, wow, great job, ladies, you know, and I I have a long-term interest in following these far-right female personalities, some of these trad wife things.
	In my experience, and this is again a big-picture phenomenological thing, is that women in this movement either lean towards this very traditional trad wife
	Very kind of mild, you know kind of persona or they're the most hardcore the hardcore, right, you know With Emily Ucas being kind of the example of the kind of the opposite side of that and I found the helicopter mom kind of straddled that difference to to to to an extreme degree and Yeah.
	But they also, it was actually the first of these Dotsie podcasts that I followed that mentioned me, which was sort of, you know, the fun bit of that, where they were the first ones who thought, like, probably I was trans because they interpreted my Twitter handle as Danielle Harper.
	Yeah, so that sounds about right.
	That's on par.
	And claimed that helicopter rides were not intended to be violent and that sort of thing.
	I don't know, I could share the audio with people.
	It's one of those things.
	But it definitely amused me that that was the first time that I heard my name spoken by one of these people on his calls.
	Someone shared a Twitter thread that I had participated in with them, and I mentioned them by name, and they were just excited to be mentioned by terrible, scary communists.
	I think the title of that episode was Hammer Mom Commie Slayer or something to that degree.
	All right, so while you were...
	While I was blathering on...
	No, no, no.
	I just had a minute to look up two things.
	The comment you made about Stryker, I wanted to see if he was really the one that you thought was pulling in Goitok.
	And it might be him, it might be Paul Nehlen.
	There's two kind of circles that are about the same size.
	I know for a fact that Stryker appeared on Goitok.
	Yeah, I mean I think he is.
	I just can't find his circle here and it's probably like halfway across the diagram because he has his own show too, but the other one was Cantwell.
	So Cantwell turns out to be a very central figure in the diagram only because he did so many shows back in the 2017 time frame and then kind of fell off the, you know.
	Cantwell definitely appeared both on TRS and he only appeared on the Daily Show a couple of times, but he did confess crimes.
	I think we've all listened to that.
	What was it, like a four hour long?
	A four hour long, like a few days after a nice break.
	That was terrible.
	we've all listened to that.
	What was it, like a four-hour long?
	A four-hour long, like, three days after the night's break.
	That was terrible.
	Yeah.
	Cantwell and the guy Coach Finstock.
	Oh, yeah.
	And Matthew Q. Gerbert.
	Art State Department guy or whatever, yeah.
	Art Department guy, revealed by the SVC.
	Yeah.
	Hayden.
	Yeah, that's rough.
	Okay, so Cantwell was on The Daily Show one, two, three, four, five, six times, Fashion of the Nation twice, Exodus Americanus, Rebel Yell, Goi Talk twice, and Nordic Frontier.
	Oh, I didn't know he was on Nordic Frontier.
	Yeah, so I have Nordic Frontier in the database because I wanted to see, you know, they're like kind of the main international... That's not one that I follow closely, I apologize.
	Right, so I didn't either, so I decided to throw them in just to see what came up, and what I found was there's a couple of key figures that have been on Nordic Frontier that are from the U.S., so Jay Dyer, Or not in the U.S., but English-speaking.
	Ahab, I don't know if you're familiar with Ahab.
	I know Ahab, yep.
	He's a regular co-host on Full House these days.
	Yes, so he's the only person who ties Nordic Frontier to Full House and then also to White Rabbit Radio.
	He's been on that quite a few times.
	Also, the People's Square with our buddy Eric Stryker.
	Friend of the show, Eric Stryker.
	That one I don't have in there.
	I have Strike and Mike but I don't have PeopleSquare yet But anyway And then Matt Parrott We mentioned at some length in the last episode Oh wait, no, he doesn't tie Nordic Frontier.
	He ties Mysterium Fascis, my bad.
	They're next to each other and I got confused.
	But yeah, so there's a few characters that tie the sort of more Nordic shows.
	I don't know, I just thought that was interesting.
	Is Red Ice in your database by chance?
	They are not.
	Not yet.
	I can add them.
	It just takes time.
	I started with the TRS shows, and then I decided, well, what's going on on Identity Dixie?
	And then I was like, well, let me pull in some outside shows.
	And then it just started getting... Right, right.
	And Red Eyes kind of brings in a little bit of everybody, which is kind of interesting.
	I could tell you the shows that I have.
	They are, let me do this in...
	No particular order.
	Actually, this will be alphabetical by their code.
	Three R's, third row.
	And I have Cocktail Hour.
	I have Exodus Americanus, Full House, Fashion of the Nation, Good Morning America, Goitok, Helicopter Mom, Killstream.
	An interesting one to add because it's more of the streaming side.
	It's also a little bit more mainstream.
	It is, and they have a significantly higher guest count than the other shows, so I actually had to adjust some of my axes on my plots to handle the number of guests that they have.
	It's just different.
	Mysterium Fascis, McSpencer Group, Nordic Frontier, Political Cesspool, Paranormies, Rebel Yell, Strike and Mike, Daily Shoah, and White Rabbit Radio.
	White Rabbit's interesting because they've gone through several iterations, just like Political Susspool.
	Political Susspool in particular, it's a very long-running show, started off on radio, has kind of gone through the different trends, you know, podcasts, and White Rabbit's now doing streaming on DLive, and so it's like, okay, you guys are coming kind of
	The political cesspool is my standard Sunday listen honestly like it's just part of my I've been listening since like March 2017 and at the time I was really fascinated because it was like I had been listening since like summer 2016 kind of off and on and I kind of gotten more and more like kind of interested and so it kind of my interest had peaked you know by that point um and uh you know I found it because it was like Oh, this is a show that is on terrestrial radio, so they are not allowed to do, like, thinking slurs.
	Right.
	And they're, like, kind of running ads, which, apparently, they run ads just to pretend like they're a real radio program?
	Like, they don't actually get paid for their ads?
	They run ads if they make themselves, like, Coke ads and stuff, and it's not really the product.
	Like, they didn't get really paid or what.
	So, like, the, the, I don't, I want to be clear that, like, a lot of this is speculative.
	I want to do this now.
	Can we do this now?
	Yeah.
	This is this is fairly speculative because like I don't really know I haven't like kind of done the you know I'm not like equipped to kind of do the research to figure this out I mean I could call up the guy but it's owned by this guy who's this you know like sort of Mormon evangelist this right-wing Mormon evangelist in Utah who is blind who has I think like 11 kids or something like some absurd number of children and
	And is more of a sort of like brightening like liberty radio kind of guy but also sort of like inclined to agree with white nationalists to some.
	And so James Edwards sort of joined that podcast network at some point, I think about 2007.
	Sorry, I didn't do my kind of like research to sort of have these details on hand.
	But the whole, but the whole thing is, from what I understand, because there was a, I think Will Carlos did some work and was trying to figure out like where this because they started advertising this co-certified app.
	Oh, yeah.
	Was wondering, like, well, who's paying for this?
	Like, why are you doing this?
	And also, they run ads for the LDS Church, the Church of Latter-day Saints.
	And I think there was a statement of some kind where it was effectively, oh, no, we don't get paid for these ads.
	We run them just to set the mood, to put out good messages in the middle of our thing.
	the mood, like an ambient, like a sort of like to, you know, put out good messages in the middle of our thing.
	And so literally they're running these ads for like three minutes every ten to twelve minutes or whatever their process is, that have no, that just interrupt their programs.
	For no apparent reason.
	Wow.
	It just makes it sound like a radio program, and they are actually broadcast on the radio.
	I have tuned in occasionally on the Saturday night, but this is one that's been on my radar for a long time, and I was, you know, I do make this my standard Sunday listen.
	I'm very familiar with Mr. James Edwards.
	In fact, one of my favorite photographs that I've run across during my time doing this work is James Edwards and Richard Spencer circa 2009 with Richard Spencer, not doing the dapper young Nazi thing, but very much looking with kind of the buzz cut and like but very much looking with kind of the buzz cut and like a plaid shirt sort of thing, like long before he had kind of mastered his optics in the So I'm wondering what your feelings about that.
	Yeah.
	I'm putting all this in quotes.
	Do you understand what this is?
	Yeah.
	You know.
	He thinks he's doing very well.
	Before he perfected the political brilliance of wearing a too-tight waistcoat.
	I'm wondering what you're feeling about Mr. James Edwards and his pals, Keith Alexander, etc.
	What have you gotten from your research?
	The reason that I pulled that show, or decided to pull the data for that show, is because he did have such a large collection over a long period of time of guests.
	The problem is I'm not going to be able to answer your question right now because I only pulled the data recently, but I have not yet analyzed it.
	So it's sitting there, not tied into the rest of the network yet.
	It's my last remaining show, honestly.
	I finished up White Rabbit today, adding that one in, and then Political Cesspool, the data is just sitting there, but it hasn't yet been pulled in.
	So when you saw the diagrams that I sent you, it's not on yet.
	But it will be, and I'm imagining, just based on what I've seen so far, you know, watching the data, spot-checking it, cleaning, that it's going to be very central to the network.
	It's not going to be one of those off-to-the-sides like Nordic Frontier or Goitok or something.
	It's going to be really central to the show.
	Right, because it's connected to almost everybody.
	Yeah, because it's so long-running, too, that messes up the... One of the problems with these charts is, like, they're really cool, but, like, anybody who's just done their show for longer just you know, statistically will be larger circles and at the center of the diagram.
	So we have to do a little bit of math to like tease that out when we really look at the importance of nodes over time.
	And there's just like a billion ways to slice and dice the data.
	But if I just showed you a graph of that show, it will definitely be at the center of the network and will look like one of the most important ones just for how long it's been on.
	Do you know who will be the most happy about that?
	Probably them.
	James Edwards.
	James Edwards, if you put that out, if you wrote an article about it and put it out there, his hard-on would be visible.
	Okay, so this is a really, really good point.
	I don't mean that.
	Sorry not to be insulting.
	No, it's true.
	like when I did the um the financial network for example with proud boys like I didn't put anyone's name on there I when I do talks about it I don't even mention that it's proud boys like it's just oh a clandestine you know um far right group like I try not to give them any props for like when you do a paper you have to like you know you have to say who it is but you don't have to say the names because I know they would just it would be like um you know
	oh they would just zoom in and try to find themselves and see how important that when when I would say something like network importance they would take that as like you know social importance and think that they had changed the world with their very important you know appearance on third rail or something so So I can't do that.
	It's a lot of balance to try to both tell the story of what's going on, but also not like, you know, give them this stupid celebrity, which they absolutely do not deserve.
	Right, absolutely.
	But James Edwards just leans into that so much already.
	I can just imagine having, you know, this famous academic, Antifa, nonetheless recognizes that we are at the center of this movement.
	Yeah, no.
	You can line up.
	You were asking earlier about some of the key figures, though, and like who Who kind of ties in different pieces of the network, and I named a few people, but the person who appears on the most number of shows for the longest period of time is Penovich, by far.
	Yeah.
	And then right after that, Stryker.
	And then you mentioned J.O., he's like third.
	And after that, it kind of falls off Spencer Musonius.
	One of the things that TRS has been, you know, one of the things that they did, particularly in 2016 and 2017, was invite as many people into their network as possible and to do as many shows as possible, you know.
	And so, sorry, Pinovich, Enoch.
	I call him Enoch.
	People give me shit for not just calling him, but he's Enoch in my head.
	I struggle with that too, when I code their names.
	Him, I have coded as his real name.
	But some of the other ones I don't even though I know their names so it's under like also known as you know but like I don't know I yeah I could see that.
	I try to use their real name if known but sometimes I don't know.
	Like here I have Asmodor he's like I don't know probably 10th Dumbledore but that's like you know I don't know.
	Asmodor is so much more recognizable than Robert Ray.
	Right exactly yeah.
	No, my favorite is Sven.
	Yeah, so him I have in as his real name.
	He's down here.
	He's about, I don't know, 18th on the list or so.
	But he goes by both all the time, right?
	Like, I mean, he literally does a show called Jazz and Jesse.
	Yeah, he does.
	But then also goes by Sven on his main show.
	Like, everybody knows him by both names, and so I use them interchangeably, right?
	So I have him in there as Jesse, but he also, in my first data, when I was very first collecting the show, he went as Bjorn.
	Oh yeah, he's had a bunch of different names.
	Good thing we have databases to keep all this straight because my head is not big enough.
	My hard drive is full.
	He doesn't do a whole lot of other shows.
	I think the only time he's really ever guested was he did a show.
	He's done four in my set.
	He's probably done more, but he's done Fashion of the Nation, Paranormies, Daily Show, and White Rabbit.
	Only did White Rabbit.
	I need to go back and find that one though.
	That's interesting.
	I can tell you exactly where to look.
	Hold on one second.
	Just talk.
	Say something and I'll look it up for you.
	Sure, sure.
	I will.
	I will.
	I actually really, because we're talking about White Rabbit so much, our good friend Tim Murdock, who decried me in an episode of his show because I claimed that the memes that they were created who decried me in an episode of his show because I claimed that the memes that they were created were shared on Vanguard News Network, on the Again, we're completely wrong.
	I actually don't believe Tim Murdock, but he claimed that me claiming that some of their memes were first shared on VNN was a larger conspiracy theory than the idea that the Nazis had a secret base in Antarctica.
	All right, well, I can tell you he was on White Rabbit.
	He was on episode 11, which I don't have a date for because I was using Google Podcasts until it went down yesterday to pull this date and they didn't have a date next to it.
	But anyway, Um, the episode was called, Who Runs Barter Town?
	And a special guest, Sven, the Daily Show host.
	This is in the, uh, the This Weekend Late Genocide era?
	Yeah, episode 11.
	It was actually distributed on TRS Network around that time, and that seems to not be the case any longer.
	But, you know, if you, if you somehow I don't think it's even out there, but maybe someone has it.
	I don't know where.
	He's on there.
	I don't think I was archiving at that point, unfortunately.
	My own failures to not be archiving all the way back for every show that I could possibly So there's like, I don't know, what, three people in the whole world that would be super interested in what episode he was on back in 2017.
	If you wanted to know that fact, I have it.
	This is some really niche inside baseball knowledge here.
	Yeah.
	Well, then to go back and listen to it, that would be the other, that would be the even more masochistic version.
	So I do sometimes go back and listen to the ones about Unite the Right.
	I do go back and look because I want to hear what their mindset was going into that like how screwed up were you guys really like did you really think this was and they did they thought it was going to be great and that this was going to be this I listened to the White Rabbit one just the other day about Unite the Right, and it was Asimidor, actually, speaking of him, and it was horrible.
	At one point, I mean, it was just awful.
	It was, like, just terrific.
	At one point, they went through a laundry list of all the speakers that were going to be there and all their friends that they knew that were going to be attending, and then I think one of the speakers was, like, fash gordon or something says at one point i was thinking this event it's going to be the moment when white flight becomes white fight like they're literally talking about fighting and the funny thing about that moment was not funny but like sad really but is that the other um host got like super quiet like they knew he had said something yeah and they just and then they just kept going
	but i'm thinking like y'all knew this was good like it's it was so premeditated this So I like to go back and forth.
	Enoch went back and forth about, like, whether he would encourage people to bring guns to the event in the, in the, like, few days, in, like, five days before August 12th.
	Yeah.
	It was kind of a, I was listening to all this at the time.
	In fact, it was after Unite the Right that I really started, like, archiving things.
	It was sort of the moment.
	I wish I'd been doing it way earlier.
	Back then I was working on my Facebook data set, which is the first big thing that I produced doing this work.
	And it was because of hearing stuff like this podcast and seeing the stuff on Facebook and just seeing the violence that was probably going to take place and just feeling like, I don't know what else to do except start collecting data and studying this, right?
	So I made this giant Facebook data set.
	And so that's been really useful to me for learning.
	I got a couple of papers out of it, just generally.
	But that was the first time where I used Like systematic, you know, systematic data science skills to try to understand what on earth was going on.
	So I don't know if you want me to talk about that data set at all.
	It's kind of cool.
	Basically, I used the Facebook API, which is like a little window that they give programmers to pull data out of the system.
	And at the time, they allowed people, just like any rando programmer, me, you, anybody who can write code, to access the group rosters for public and private groups on the site.
	So I basically just sat there for like months and made a list of thousands and thousands of far-right groups, white nationalist groups, Nazi groups, you know, just anything I could find across all the different hate ideologies and pulled the membership rosters for all of those and I did that for about 10 months just using Facebook's own software.
	And there's over 700,000 people in the data set by the time I was done.
	And so what I was able to do was try to track the crossover between the different events and the different groups and just figure out who was crossing over with who and what ideologies co-mingle and which ones don't.
	But Unite the Ray was at the center of that study.
	It was the reason that I started the study on June 20th, 2017, was the first day I ran the data set.
	And that was the whole impetus for doing that.
	I collected that event and then just kept going.
	So everything from Proud Boys to, you know, traditional worker party and, like, just everything.
	Anti-Muslim groups, all of it.
	Yeah, I think that research is on your website, right?
	Yeah, and it's, I mean, it's hard to use the data set now because Facebook stopped researchers from, all researchers, not just me, but, like, everybody.
	After the Cambridge Analytica scandal happened where they, some academic out in the UK, I think, was, like, doing sketchy stuff where they were, like, having people take quizzes and stealing your friend's data and all this, like, weird stuff.
	They shut down not just that ability, but like every, you know, the API stuff that I was using, which, you know, that was such low-quality data, like, they were basically just giving it, not low-quality, but, like, low-value to them.
	They were just giving it away.
	They even shut that down.
	So it's pretty hard to study Facebook now systematically in any kind of way.
	You mean Facebook is doing evil things?
	I would never have imagined.
	They think they're doing a good thing because they think they're protecting people's privacy, but what's really going on is we now are unable to study things like the rise of extremism on their platform and the use of, you know, ads to sway elections and things like that.
	It's really, really hard to study what's going on in their platform.
	It's worth noting that both the TRS guys started in Facebook in 2012 or something like that.
	Let's bring this to the modern day.
	This whole Boogaloo thing that's going on right now, they're all on Facebook.
	That's a Facebook phenomenon.
	Absolutely.
	They're a little bit on Discord and a little bit on the Chans, but they're a lot on Facebook.
	And it's very, very, very hard to study that right now without doing, you know, the sort of non-scientific, you know, try to join this group, click on the thing, which that's not my jam.
	I don't do that.
	So it's just really, I've had to move on to other platforms basically because I can't like systematically study Facebook anymore.
	So, which is nice because there's enough people that know how to study Facebook at this point that if they ever did open a stuff up, you know, people would jump on that or like Twitter.
	I don't even bother to study Twitter because there's so many people looking at Twitter.
	But I go to other platforms now.
	So do things like this, you know, like this podcast madness or I'm studying DLive right now.
	I have a huge project going on with that or like just different other platforms.
	Well, I have two other people or two other kind of groups I'd like to talk to you about before we, you know, we're kind of reaching the end of our normal, like, recording session.
	I feel like you and I, again, you should definitely come back.
	If you've enjoyed this, you should come back on a regular basis and just geek out about this stuff, you know?
	You had mentioned, so again, full disclosure, I spent most of my day upgrading my Linux laptop because I was having problems with my video downloader.
	And because my version of Glib was not, you know, working appropriately.
	And so I spent like a day fighting with that.
	And then while I was doing that, I listened to the political cesspool and a little bit of Jason Kona.
	Oh yeah, so he's one of my go-to cases for good grifting.
	I like to study him for how he's so good at like finding ways to make money.
	Which he claims all goes into, I was listening to him today and he was claiming like it all goes directly into quote-unquote white advocacy or whatever.
	I don't use it to pay, I don't use it to buy groceries, and it's like, it's cocaine, right?
	Allegedly, I don't, that's not, that's not legally actionable, etc, etc, you know.
	A whole bunch of stuff about him.
	I mean, he used to spell his name differently.
	He added the whole O with the dots, like, that's a late-breaking addition, but, so he's been around for a little bit.
	I think the first news story I saw about him was back in like, 2002 or something and he was doing like League of the South advocacy so he's been around for a minute but he kind of claims to have met William Luther Pierce at some point and I think Pierce died in 2000 in the early 2000s I forget the exact year.
	Yeah well that's about right if it was during that same but anyway The reason that I like to keep an eye on him is not just his show or whatever, I don't really find that one that interesting scientifically, but he has such a laundry list of all the places that he's making money and accepting money and taking donations and stuff that it actually has tipped me off to a few New and interesting data sources, so I like to keep an eye on him.
	That's kind of neat.
	He's where I learned about Entropy, which is a service to sort of re-monetize, de-monetize YouTube channels, and they also allow you to have sort of like a naughty chat.
	So you can stream on YouTube, but then send all your viewers over to Entropy to actually do the chat and the viewing.
	Yeah, Tim Murvack says this is our true free speech platform as Entropy.
	Yeah.
	I think one of their first clients was J.F.
	Garopy.
	They have been doing this for a bit.
	I don't know if it's successful.
	I guess they're taking 25% as opposed to YouTube's 50%, but it's on a smaller pool of people.
	They seem to be paying.
	They have a couple people that work there.
	I think it's three of them, maybe a couple more developers.
	Yeah, so he, so Jason's interesting because he'll, you know, he's just, he's got his hooks and everything, so I know, I like to look at him to find out what he's, what new services have sprung up to, that these guys can, you know, can leverage to make a, make a dollar.
	Yeah, he was, he regularly appears with Mark Collette.
	Yes, yes, that's it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's kind of the same way.
	Mark is how I used him to benchmark how much they're making on Super Chats, and it might have been a bit ambitious of a case, but he did an episode of This Week in the Alt-Right, I guess.
	It was like his 100th episode or something, and it was this three-hour- That would have been like years ago.
	That would have been like two or three years ago at this point, right?
	I think it was last year, last spring, I think.
	Oh, was it?
	Okay, yeah.
	I think it was May, maybe April or May of last year, but he had this three-hour-long cavalcade of
	Of stars and I mean it was everybody from Spencer and Duke and Pinovich and just it was just everybody that he had like ever had on his show and stuff and they all came for like you know two or three minutes and did a little spiel and the super chats were like flowing in and I was like okay I'm gonna see I'm gonna do like just do a back-of-the-envelope study to see if you if you had that many stars in on a three-hour show like how much how much money are you making in the super chats So I grabbed all the data, threw it in a spreadsheet.
	There was Danish Kroners also.
	I did the currency conversions and everything.
	And he was making about $300 an hour.
	It wasn't bad, right?
	For just getting other people to come on your podcast.
	Sure, yeah.
	This is a thing.
	I used to track that back when TRS, like before they went professional and they would just read their donations on their show.
	And I used to do kind of like mental, just sort of like not anything systematic.
	Yeah, they used to back in the day.
	They'd say, like, you know, oh, we got 1488 from so-and-so.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, cool.
	And so, you know, just kind of go, like, okay, 1488, 15 bucks.
	Like, all the time I'm, like, listening while I'm, like, doing dishes or I'm, like, doing my commute or kind of whatever.
	And so, like, I didn't, like, really go through.
	But, like, you kind of listen, like, on a weekly basis.
	And they were making several hundred dollars a week even before they were, you know, like, assuming that all that's, like, sort of a legitimate, like, they could be making up the numbers, of course.
	But I don't think so, you know.
	Well, now we have ways to study it where they can't fudge the numbers a little bit.
	And it's where the data is easier to get than YouTube.
	So it's super hard to get the YouTube data.
	I mean, you'd have to sit there and look at every, like, podcast and, like, copy-paste it out.
	And it's janky.
	You mean you don't have a team of interns working for the SPSA?
	A bunch of poofle haired feminists?
	So they don't give you it.
	You have to sit there.
	It would be all of us cat ladies having to sit there and watch this crap.
	I don't have time for that.
	That's when I'm reliably informed by these guys that it's happening.
	Believe me.
	You're going to be very disappointed if it turns out that's not what's happening.
	I like that they're moving to some of these sites that they feel like are safer for them, but the data ends up being a little bit more available for study.
	- Right. - At any rate. - We're all on their, we're all employed by them apparently, so that's what they think.
	But I like that they're moving to some of these sites that they feel like are safer for them, but the data ends up being a little bit more available for a study, so one of those is DLive.
	So that one provides, like, it's a blockchain-based thing, so the earnings and the donations in and out are viewable.
	So I'm working on a project right now to try to just get a handle on how much money is flowing in there and just what's the state of the damage.
	It can't be as bad as YouTube, just based on eyeballs, but I think it's bad.
	So yeah, working on that now.
	Sorry, you now sent me down a little pathway here.
	You may not have a clear answer for this.
	I'm going to ask you this, and then I'm going to ask you another, which you may not have looked into yet.
	One of the things that I've always been curious about is the funding streams and where this is coming from.
	The impression that I get is that they do have this base of support of people giving up a couple of dollars here and there, $5 here and there or whatever, but that there's also got to be some Bigger funder who's kind of feeding money through these networks, right and Would that be something that like you would be able to study if you were kind of getting?
	some big massive donations coming like if there if there's some like millionaire laundering money through these guys like Doing it like one or two dollar donation chunks as opposed to like kind of sending them 50 grand or whatever Yeah, that's what I want to find out.
	So, I mean, I don't know if what patterns will become obvious and if they do it like they do with Bitcoin and some of the others, there's multiple ways to split, you know, Split amounts, split transactions and so on.
	Depending on the crypto, there's different ways to do that.
	But yeah, they could be doing that here.
	We have to just collect the data and then see what it shows and then figure out what's going on.
	So I don't come into the project with like, I know there's a guy funding this, I'm gonna find that guy.
	It's really just let's collect the data and then we're gonna map it out and see what bubbles up to the top.
	And if there's something interesting there, cool.
	And if not, then that's cool too.
	What I'm noticing right now is that your hypothesis is just one of many and it absolutely could be happening so then the trick there is to figure out ways to detect that so you don't just think it's a bunch of little tiny donations.
	Learning enough about the platform to realize what's a pattern and what's not a pattern.
	So, like, the other day I was looking at it and I was like, why is everybody donating this specific amount?
	And then I realized, oh, that's the amount that it costs to do X on this platform.
	So just knowing enough about it to not make dumb mistakes.
	And all of this is weird and new and foreign.
	And then there's weirdness about the platform itself.
	They just switched from one cryptocurrency to another one.
	And so that introduced some bumps in the road.
	And you have to just figure out all of that and get the lay of the land on every single platform that they move to.
	And then set up the study and then collect the data.
	And it's just this really long process.
	But the goal, I guess, with this one is to see if there's any there there.
	Some of them are moving over to this platform.
	What's going on there?
	Is it anything to worry about?
	Is it as big of a problem as YouTube?
	How much money are we really talking about?
	Is this $20 a week or is this $200,000 a week?
	What's the deal?
	Once we know the size of the problem, then figuring out what remediation is appropriate and so on.
	Yeah, and I think connected, I mean, you know, to my mind, the biggest and most important person in June 2020, like the person that I'm most sort of worried about in terms of like a kind of moving forward, is not anyone that we've mentioned thus far, but it's our good Friend of the show, Nick Fuente.
	I knew you were going to say that!
	He's my key life go-to, yeah.
	I don't know, he's kind of the key life guy, right?
	He's kind of the idea of that, right?
	Yeah.
	And his audience from every metric, again, I apologize because I look at this just kind of like looking at it as a weird fan of these people, right, as opposed to like scientifically.
	But, you know, my sense is that his audience dwarfs like all these other people, including the TRS network.
	Yeah.
	And he's on all of those platforms that I mentioned.
	So he's still streaming on YouTube.
	He's on Entropy.
	He's on DLive.
	He's getting chats on Twitch, I think still.
	Probably.
	I don't have any.
	I'm not doing them right now.
	He's definitely making money on DLive.
	It looks like he's getting at least $100 a day on average, probably closer to $200 or $300 a day on average.
	Some days he's gotten as high as several thousand dollars a day, but those were anomalies.
	Are those broadcast days?
	I can't tell.
	The indications that I get from him talking about his income are that he is making well above $100,000 a year at this point.
	Well, you know, they probably lie, because Nazis lie.
	Hold on, Nazis lie?
	Really?
	Well, he's probably making more than any of us would be comfortable with, which is, you know, more than a dollar.
	But yeah, sometimes they exaggerate with the size of their crowds, the size of their audiences, the size of the number of people that are listening, how much money they're making.
	I mean, they just lie.
	They just lie.
	He was speaking particularly in terms of his possible coronavirus relief and how, based on what year's taxes that he could file, and it seemed to be in a context where I would not believe he would be making a million dollars a year, but the fact that he's like, well, I will be able to get a check Based on my 2018 versus my 2019 tax returns or whatever.
	I'm kind of like, you know.
	Like it felt like not a flex as much as an inadvertent admission So he's an interesting case too because he's definitely using the platforms to make money but he's also trying to do his own play with his own website and he's you know, there's been sort of gossip on his chat channels, you know, like why isn't Nick pushing more people to do that?
	Why is he not reading our super chats fast?
	He's trying to push people to his own site.
	So they're kind of speculating that he's more interested in doing his own hosting and his own kind of thing rather than using some of these services that take a cut.
	He deleted his BitChute channel recently.
	And that was part of that.
	Sorting everybody towards his.
	Sorry, not again to you, but to the audience.
	Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
	I've been deeply interested in what Nick Fuentes is doing.
	He was kind of doing some Boogaloo shit in Tampa.
	A couple of weeks ago as well.
	And I mean, you know, that's a, I don't know.
	He's kind of one of those people that, like, lately I've really just been following him through his, like, fan channels, where, like, fans will, like, cut up his thing and kind of do, like, a 20-minute segment from his show, so I don't have to actually watch the full two-hour show.
	That's interesting.
	Like a meta show.
	Oh, that's super interesting.
	Where they do the clip shows, and I follow, like, I have probably at least a dozen, like, Nick Fuentes fan channels in my, like, archive list.
	You know what'll be interesting is watching, if that becomes a thing, well, watching his reaction to it, but then other people's reactions.
	Like, how do they react when their fans start, um, you know, making derivative works and then possibly making money off of that?
	Like, do they take more of a grateful dead tape trading kind of approach where like, Hey man, it's okay, whatever.
	Or do they more like, There's this channel called Zoomerclips.
	It's a YouTube channel which is kind of intermittently updated at this point, but for a long time was doing sort of like the daily or a couple of times a week, you know, kind of upload of some few minute segment of Nick Fuentes' content.
	All right.
	But there were also a person who would do the super chats to be read on Nick's show at the same time, which implies that it's probably someone independent of Nick if they're like kind of.
	You know, kind of doing that.
	And so, like, what that speaks to me is, like, there's a level of, uh, a sort of authentic fan base that is, like, actively sharing.
	That's sad.
	Right?
	I don't like that.
	Exactly, exactly.
	Yeah, that's sad in both senses of the word.
	Like, it's not, it's not just, like, Nick kind of, you know, or some somebody kind of working with Nick or working for Nick kind of doing the thing.
	But again, this is kind of my own just sort of watching the content and sort of like getting my general impression.
	It does feel like Nick has this huge fan base on YouTube and on these other channels that is kind of actively kind of pumping money his way.
	And maybe he's getting some kind of institutional money because he's hanging out with a kind of identity Europa crew.
	Did you listen to Saturday, or did you listen to this week's, I guess it was Friday, I don't know how he does his shows.
	I listened on Saturday morning, whatever the latest one was there.
	It was supposedly about the Chaz, the autonomous zone in Seattle.
	But he mentioned numerous times having some kind of plan in the works.
	And he was asking mega donors, or what did he call them, big money donors, to email him.
	Yeah, because he had some kind of plan and stuff.
	I was about to be at the time, so the volume was low, and I only had one functioning earbud.
	So I was doing my best.
	But he definitely mentioned...
	It was during the Super Chat...
	Someone sent a very large super chat and he was thankful and telling that guy to email him separately because he had some opportunities and da da da.
	He also mentioned infrastructure a couple of times and he got really like black pilled about just the state of the world and the confederate monuments in particular.
	And was like basically soft-fed posting pretty much the whole first part of the show.
	It was kind of weird.
	It was definitely different.
	I would say give it a listen.
	I will take your... Yes, yes, I will definitely do so, you know, for sure.
	My problem with doing the DLive thing is that, you know, the command line utility I use to archive these shows does not work well with DLive, and so, like, they just make it that much more annoying for me Because I can't just let my computer do the work for me.
	I'm just deeply annoyed.
	It would be better for me if he were still on YouTube.
	He's on Spotify.
	Someone's putting him into their channel on Spotify.
	And I talked to some folks there about it, and they were like, well, it's not his own channel.
	And I was like, well, his content is still on your platform.
	You know he's a Holocaust denier?
	Just share the, like, the cookie thing, you know?
	Yeah.
	Like, all the times that he talks about the Jews.
	They seem to be confused about whether he was... Like, the fact that they weren't... Like, it wasn't an official channel.
	They kept saying, well, it's an unofficial channel.
	I was like, and?
	Like, I don't care, but... And his racist content is still being spread.
	I don't get why that's even relevant, but okay.
	Yeah, he's on there on some, I don't know, some dude posted stuff, reposted stuff.
	But again, that just speaks to the kind of larger point in that he's got possibly... Right, exactly.
	People who will take that risk.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	It's true.
	I'm with you.
	He's worrisome.
	This has been a great episode.
	I think we're running out of steam more out of a Just an exhaustion with dealing with these people as opposed to... I feel like I have 10 more projects to do.
	Thanks Alive!
	So much more work to do now.
	Well, and ditto.
	Thank you, Megan.
	You have now forced me to... So many more podcasts to listen to.
	I'm sorry.
	You don't have, like, my podcast app only goes up to, like, a two, like, I can't listen faster than 2.5 speed.
	I need to get that transcript thing going, man.
	I gotta, oh, I gotta do that.
	You know, you know, if we got a really good transcript app, do you know, like, it would change my life.
	Yeah, right?
	It would change so many, so many people, so many people.
	I would really, I just, yeah.
	So I got grants to, anyway, that's a whole other thing.
	But yeah, it's not been great.
	We're going to have to keep working on it.
	We're just not there yet.
	Yeah.
	If you need people to listen to the 20-minute segments that are interesting from these shows, please send me an application, because I'll certainly be someone to take care of that.
	We really do need AIs, but we need AIs that people haven't trained to be racist, which does seem to be a general sort of problem with AIs, from what I can gather.
	Yeah, it is a problem.
	Definitely.
	So Jack, do you have anything to add before we wrap up here?
	Or I should just hand it over to you and let you wrap it up.
	Not really.
	I just want to say thanks ever so much to Megan.
	I feel like we've kind of undersold the extent to which you are a legend.
	But hopefully you'll come back and show more of your legendariness to our listeners.
	Megan does way more than just talk about podcasts.
	All I do is talk about podcasts.
	Megan has many, many other skills and levels of expertise.
	Y'all are going to make my head not be able to fit through the door.
	They make me have a big ego.
	Here, don't do it.
	Oh, this podcast, there's nobody involved in this who has a massive inflated ego, trust me.
	Yeah, so that's fantastic.
	Thank you so much for coming on.
	No problem.
	My pleasure.
	And thanks for listening, everybody.
	That was episode 56.
	It was.
	I've just checked.
	And you can find us in all the usual places.
	It's all in the outro bit that I've recorded.
	And thanks ever so much to everybody who listens and shares and retweets and helps us out.
	It's enormously appreciated.
	OK, so bye bye.
	Cheers.
	That was I Don't Speak German.
	Thanks for listening.
	We're on iTunes and show up in most podcast catchers.
	You can find Daniel's Twitter, along with links to pretty much everything he does, at at Daniel E Harper.
	You can find my Twitter at at underscore Jack underscore Graham underscore.
	Daniel and I both have Patreons, and any contribution you can make genuinely does help us to do this, though it also really helps if you just listen and maybe talk about us online to spread the word.

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