I Don't Speak German, Episode 9: Mike Enoch and 'The Daily Shoah'
This week we delve into the dark pit of deeply pathetic depravity that is Mike Enoch of The Right Stuff and his 'Daily Shoah' podcast. Big deals within the 'alt-right'. This episode comes with strong content warnings. We relay racial slurs and "unironic exterminationism". Daniel has been less sparing than usual and Jack has decided not to bleep anything. TRANSCRIPT: https://idtg.net/9 FULL TRANSCRIPT LIST: https://idtg.net/ * Show Notes: From last week - NSM taken over by James Stern * The Right Stuff Andrew Marantz's New Yorker profile of Enoch, Birth of a White Supremacist Enoch and David Duke in Charlottesville Unite the Right TRS on Youtube Mike Enoch and Sven doxxed The Pool Party is Closed - Timeline of Alt-Right Meltdown Genocide: The Inescapable Conclusion SPLC profile on Enoch Jessie Dunstan's old band, "Mathematic the Waves" Alex McNabb suspension Alex McNabb cleared of charges Audio clips for episode 9 including the extermination clip: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=13uWKSYl4D1YysQVo7s8lU6LVDosO9GXG * Daniel's appearance on Queer Transmission livestream
Hello and welcome to episode 9 of I Don't Speak German.
Welcome possibly lots more of you than previously this time.
Because we've had a sudden spike in download numbers.
Quite a huge one, actually.
So yeah, hi newbies.
Welcome to I Don't Speak German.
This is, as I say, episode nine of the podcast where I talk to Daniel Harper about what he learned from more than two years of listening to the American far-right, white supremacists, etc.
Talk to each other in their online safe spaces, their podcasts, their YouTube videos, etc.
Hi Daniel, how are you doing?
Considering all the things that I've been listening to lately, I'm doing great.
Never that well, given the day-to-day drudgery, but we're doing fine.
Yeah, this is it.
I mean, when I say, how are you doing?
And you say, oh, I'm doing fine.
You know, I take that in context, you know, in the context of a life spent listening to Nazis talk to each other.
So I actually only listened to like an hour of that today.
I was doing other stuff.
So, you know, yay.
You're losing it.
I'm getting behind.
I'm going to have to listen to some more after we do this.
So, you know, that's the thing.
I have to do so many hours a day or else I do actually start to fall behind.
That's right.
You need to get your fix.
We should just move on from that.
That's going to take us into some really uncomfortable places.
Yeah, this is it.
It's best not analyzed probably too deeply.
Yeah, so this is episode 9 and the subject of this episode is Mike Enoch and the Right Stuff Podcast Network and The Daily Shower.
I still haven't gotten over the fact that that's what it's called.
Yeah, we're basically just doing the Daily Show today because the rest of the Write Stuff would take up another two or three episodes, and we're going to try to do this in one.
So this is Mike Enoch and the Daily Show specifically today.
Sure, but this is going to function as a sort of an intro to the Write Stuff.
Yeah, definitely.
But before we can get to that lovely topic, We do need to, I mean, firstly, we could do Cantwell News, but then we could apparently do that at the start of every fucking show.
Apparently we could just do an entire show that's just Cantwell News, but we're not going to do that.
It's just the bullshit that Cantwell is getting himself involved in.
It turned out that when we did the Cantwell episode, it just happened to be in a particularly rich vein of Cantwell bullshit as well.
Because he's been in like rare form even for Cantwell lately.
And so there really is.
I'm glad we already did those episodes so that I didn't have to try to like cram all this stuff that's happened since in the last month into one of those episodes as well.
Because my god this man is creating loads and loads of bullshit.
He is a one-man omni shambles.
Yes, and just to mention, I was going to kind of cover the news of the Heel Turn Network.
If you remember Episode 1, I said that the Hillturn Network was sort of Richard Spencer's new gig, and that it was weird that he was sort of taking over this tiny little thing that's in the corner of the internet, and that he was kind of making that his baby.
This whole stuff moved so fast that two months later, since we recorded that episode, it had become one of the central hubs.
Of, uh, you know, content creation.
And as I was prepping this, and I said, oh yeah, I'm going to, um, talk about that as part of the intro, that it's actually gotten much bigger and it's much more important, uh, two days ago it completely collapsed from the inside, and Kent Will seems to have been in some way responsible for that, or at least connected to that.
I wouldn't want to say responsible, that's giving him too much credit.
Um, so all of that tells you, like, there has been a lot of shit going on in the last few weeks, and, uh, I'm just, You know, we could cover just all that and fill episodes worth, and we have much more important things to talk about today.
Don't worry, we'll come back to all of it.
Although I think we should take the credit, to be honest.
Yeah, no, no.
I think it's really us.
We did this.
Yeah, we have set downhill turn.
Yeah, go us.
So yeah, so there's that.
As I say, we're going to skip over Cantwell News because that could just be an episode to itself.
And we do need to do a little recap on something that we talked about in The previous episode, which is the National Socialist Movement and James Stern.
Do you want to tell us about that?
Sure.
So there's a very nice piece in the Washington Post, which I'm going to link in the show notes.
It is worth one of your X number.
I think four free articles you get to read from that a month.
I actually subscribed to the Washington Post because it's kind of my source for mainstream news.
So, you know.
But there is a very nice piece in the post and it does kind of go into some of the details.
Now, I feel a little bad because I was really skeptical of this when we covered it last week and I kind of like pooh-poohed it.
I thought that Stern was being manipulated by Jeff Shoup and the NSM, and that's because I worked on the presumption that Jeff Shoup was not a completely oblivious, stupid person.
Yeah, not a total moron.
But that was unfortunately treating him far, far too kindly.
That was giving him too much benefit of the doubt.
It was.
He has been the leader of this group for nearly 25 years.
And he literally signed the rights to it away to this guy, James Stern.
He got apparently tricked out of it, although they're also trying to avoid some of the legal battles.
That come from the Science V Kessler case, which we covered in one of the Charlottesville episodes.
And so it was part of kind of this legal action, but Stern seems to have taken over the National Socialist Movement.
He's going to turn it into like the website and everything.
The few resources they have, it's going to be turned into a Holocaust memorial, and everybody is running out of lives from the NSM.
So it's great, it's great.
But yeah.
So Stern is like a, you know, he's an information terrorist.
I mean, I wouldn't want to give him that.
I mean, that makes it sound more negative than it is.
I mean, it just sounds like he's... No, no, I meant it in a good way.
Right.
You know, I was like, oh, he's going to kind of come in and do this like racial reconciliation thing.
And it just seemed like a kind of, He was letting himself be used by these guys, but it turned out he fooled me.
I was really iffy on it.
I just wasn't sure, but I was kind of leaning in that direction, so I don't want to kick myself too hard.
Stern has completely destroyed the NSM, and that's pretty amazing.
This piece also has some interviews with Heimbach, who we covered last week.
Heimbach says that there were only about 40 dues-paying members in the NSM.
The NSM is both considered to be one of the largest networks of white supremacy in America, and they may have only had 40 dues-paying members.
Those two things are not necessarily in conflict with each other, if you understand that the dues-paying members are only a small proportion of the people who align with its aims and attend rallies and such.
So, um, Anyway, that's that.
NSM is over.
I expect James Shoup, or Jeff Shoup, to found some other organization sometime later this year or next year, and keep doing what he's doing.
I don't expect him to go away.
These people don't go away.
But that's where we land, and I do recommend reading that whole piece.
I'm not going to read it here.
Plus, again, we have other stuff to cover today, but it is worth a read.
Yeah, check that out.
I'll just say, you know, well done, James.
Yes, you are.
You are a fucking legend.
So yeah, definitely.
Okay, so moving on to the main topic of this episode, which is Mikey knock and the date again, I can't get over that.
The fucking thing is called the daily shower.
I just can't, you know, maybe that's just me revealing what a What a naive milquetoast I am, but I've never gotten over that when you told me about that, that it's called that.
It's honestly, like, this is kind of key to understanding what they're doing, actually, is that it is sort of meant, you're meant to have that reaction, that's the point.
Well, you know, if it's meant to shock, I mean, they succeeded, because, you know, it is shocking.
Yeah I'm not gonna pretend I've been in a permanent state of you know tears about it the whole time if that's what they're after but it is nonetheless it you know that there is a foul taste in the mouth and it doesn't go away to put it that way.
I definitely agree and I'm just gonna say just here at the outset of us talking about this that like as you can tell from the fact that you know just getting past the title takes a little bit of effort and takes I've been trying to keep these fairly safe to listen to.
We are talking about racism and Nazis and stuff, but I have been trying to dull the edges of it a bit in order to make it listenable radio and to make sure that people are not put off by me describing it in the terms that it should be described in.
Um, there's really no way to avoid a certain amount of, like, some of the proper nouns in this episode are going to be slurs.
Like, that's just the nature of this.
Um, and, uh, so I'm gonna ask for a little bit more latitude on this one.
Um, in terms of, uh, you know, I am gonna have to use some words that I'd rather not use here.
Um, that said, uh, if you are, you know, kind of put off by that, or if that's gonna bother you, I fully understand skipping this episode.
Um, and I'm just gonna kind of leave it at that.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, take care.
Take care of yourself.
Do what you got to do.
But, you know, big fat content warning because, you know, not nasty stuff coming up and we're not going to.
I mean, you know, we try to be as honest as possible.
But as Daniel says, we also try to make it not an absolutely objectionable experience.
Every time you listen to us for an hour or so, you know, as much as possible, we try to make it light and bearable.
There's just no way to sugarcoat this stuff.
There just isn't.
One of the things with sort of the journalism around this stuff is that you know if you kind of read like a news like a piece in like The Washington Post or The Huffington Post or whatever and it'll say you know.
So-and-so was found with materials of an anti-Semitic nature or was found with, you know, racist diatribes on his computer or whatever, and they avoid describing it out of propriety and out of, you know, these are mainstream publications that don't want to put, you know, things like the Daily Shoah in their headlines, for instance.
And I understand that, and I agree with that.
At the same time, if you are kind of looking for the nuances and you're looking for the details, you know, someone like me, I read these pieces and I want to know, like, exactly what they're reading so that I can, you know, kind of place it within a more nuanced and detailed context, and often that information is really kind of hard to come by.
And so there is kind of a balancing act with this stuff.
But I also think that, like, that very Act of avoiding using the kind of the language that they use leads to a certain leveling of the stuff.
Yeah.
Where, you know, you just kind of hear like, oh, he had like a racist pamphlet and you think like, oh, maybe that's like a Ben Shapiro thing or whatever and not, you know, a pamphlet with, you know, the happy merchant meme, you know, describing how, you know, the Jews are out to destroy, you know, white America or whatever.
And, uh, you know, there are some nuances there.
There are some differences there.
And I think it's important to part of this project is trying to, um, give it that weight.
And in this episode, uh, my goal here is to, um, let you see how bad some of this stuff is.
Uh, because I do think it's important that like, this isn't like sort of ordinary Fox News, you know, Tucker Carlson level stuff.
This is, Truly appalling content that should not exist, frankly.
They say the quiet part very loud indeed, these people.
This sort of goes all the way down, not to get too far off topic, but it does annoy me because the line between being tasteful, as the media understands taste, and making excuses or sort of covering up for people is fuzzy.
Even if they don't mean to, it's often what they end up doing.
They will sort of in their endless quest for objectivity and fairness and balance which they of course misunderstand as meaning sort of always giving both sides even when there is only one side.
They will they will report things like you know Steve King says or even people more mainstream you know Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio or whoever it happens in this country too.
They will report vile things these people say and they will report them with with sort of euphemisms like Racially tinged remarks.
Sure.
You know?
Whereas what they mean is racist remarks.
And if they can't even be honest about people like that when they're openly racist, then how are they going to deal objectively with people like Mike Enoch?
It's a wider problem is all I'm saying.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
But yeah, so if you want to start in on the unpleasantness.
So we can, just to clarify, I'm not going to say the word Shoah 5,000 times this episode.
They have fairly successfully rebranded, at least internally, to, they no longer call their show the Daily Shoah, they call it TDS or Tedious.
Um, and, uh, that's supposed to, in some way, sort of distance themselves from the, uh, kind of the, the horror of the name.
Um, this was done partly in, in kind of response to the kind of publicity around the lawsuit.
Um, everybody who listens to it knows exactly what this content is, but, um, they do call themselves, uh, TDS.
Um, and so I'm just gonna kind of use that just to kind of simplify it and make it easier to talk about.
And it is actually easier than saying show endlessly, you know, right?
You know, this is this is the show that I have spent the most time listening to.
I've spent more time with these people than anyone else that I followed with this.
This is One of the biggest, you know, kind of propaganda sources in what might be, what we would generally call the alt-right.
TDS gets, it's hard to estimate, you know, kind of podcast listening numbers in general, like just any way, but most estimates are that they get somewhere between 10 and 100,000 listeners per episode.
With a kind of medium number being like in the 40-50,000 range seems to be a kind of like reasonable, you know, best guess.
They do have a YouTube channel.
Which is terrifying.
That's terrifying.
Wait till you hear the material, like, you know.
That's why it's terrifying, you know, material like this should not be getting anything like that much of a hearing.
Right.
I mean, that's almost as many listeners as we get in this podcast, Jax.
I know!
They're catching up on us, aren't they?
That's sarcasm, listeners.
No, we don't get anywhere near that.
We treasure every single one of you.
We do.
Tell your friends.
Share it with a friend.
Tell other friends about the podcast that you listen to that is talking about vile, disgusting shit like this.
I'm trying to find the way into this.
It's just difficult.
I've spent many, many hours listening to this.
There are something like 400 currently released episodes.
Of which I've listened to probably three quarters of the of the total ones because this is one where I actually went back and listened to it from the beginning It started in late 2014 and it grew out of a There's a bunch of guys posting in Facebook discussion groups in 2010-2011, like political chat groups.
These are guys who are in this edgy libertarian space.
Lots of racist jokes.
I'm going to describe the four guys to you who are the key members here in a second.
But, um, people think that, you know, like 4chan is the origin of this stuff.
And 4chan is important, don't get me wrong.
Um, but that's really sort of your, um, that, that's like the troll army.
Those are the kind of the nameless figures who just kind of, um, pushing memes, pushing, you know, stuff into, you know.
Those are the people on Twitter with the, uh, you know, uh, Pepe avatars and, you know, eight numbers in their, in their, in their handle.
Uh, you know, kind of the auto-generated bot kind of handles.
That's those guys, who they have 8 followers, and then when they get banned they just create 20 more.
Those aren't the sort of top-level people doing, you know, actually kind of propagating and kind of creating narratives and memes.
Those aren't the, like, important people in the movement.
They don't really spend time on 4chan.
Some of them, you know, kind of get started on Reddit, some of them get started in, you know, Twitter was a huge place until they kind of all got banned, or most of them got banned.
But, um, The right stuff started off as basically a Facebook discussion group and then eventually when they started kind of getting like enough sort of like longer form kind of conversations together enough kind of like post together.
They formed a website, and they started TheRightStuff.biz, and they called it .biz just because they thought it was funny, and it's a mix of sort of like fairly high-minded political conversation around this sort of vaguely libertarian neo-reaction movement.
Um, and, uh, kind of edgy jokes.
Lots of, um, stuff that's just kind of, uh, you know, racial humor and that sort of thing.
And, um, you know, it's this mix of it that becomes, um, kind of the genesis of, in a lot of ways, of the tone, um, and the sort of the, the cultural content that we come to associate with the alt-right.
Um, one of the things that I think I have, um, What I've failed to approach in the previous episodes is that I've been describing these figures and kind of giving a lot of background but I haven't given a lot of experience of sort of like why people get into this.
Like, you know, the alt-right was born with Gottfried and Richard Spencer, the term was, and sort of the growth of the movement.
Matthew Heimbach was Building a political movement a political party built around kind of National Socialist principles and he had a website that had kind of a list of you know things that they believed in in that sort of thing, but That's not the thing that made people that made this thing happen in a real way on the internet There are a lot of debates about you know exactly what the sort of generative event is and this is a it's a big kind of complicated question and
There are some people who believe that there is some kind of big money man who sort of was pushing this stuff in there, you know, behind the scenes.
I can't confirm or deny that.
I would believe it if it comes out.
But regardless of sort of the details, the weighting of particular things, the creation of the Write Stuff blog, and in particular the creation of the Daily Show, a podcast, in 2014 is one of the Really clear, crystallizing events that created this new cultural movement.
The triple parenthesis meme started out on the Daily Shoah.
Starting in one of their very early episodes, they have a reverb panel where they can, you know, basically a soundboard where they can make things echo in the audio in real time live.
And so whatever they would do, a Jewish name, or a name that sounds Jewish, like Silverstein, they would make it reverberate.
And that was just kind of one of the jokes that they made.
And then in order to sort of represent that in text on forums, they started putting triple parentheses around it.
And then that becomes like a thing that gets propagated all throughout the internet.
And this literally kind of Started and was popularized by a couple of guys like recording over Skype in their basements on this on this podcast That never had any kind of major Distribution network that was never it was just like some guys fucking around.
They've never been on iTunes They used to call themselves the biggest podcast on SoundCloud, you know And a SoundCloud banned their asses, you know fairly early on but I believe it like they were getting tens of thousands of downloads at a time and Um, and it is and again, it is this mix of a sort of
Political, metapolitical, kind of cultural conversation combined with, you know, it's kind of fairly, I mean, I don't want to say intellectual, it's certainly not like academic, but it's certainly like sort of higher-minded than what you're going to see on like cable news any given time.
It's sort of that like kind of higher-minded internet discourse stuff.
And it's the combination of that with like this explicitly racist humor that really took off and it really becomes the really kind of generative thing.
And, um, in that sense, it is massively, massively important to understand what these guys are like, and who this is, and who they are, and what this show is, in order to understand, like, why this became popular.
And, uh, to that end, I'm now gonna tell you, um, the four current, uh, members of, uh, The Daily Show-Off.
The four guys who are the sort of four paid employees of this network that we know of.
There may be some others, but these guys are sort of the four main guys.
There are a couple of former guys who have been docs who have kind of left the TRS network and are kind of doing other things.
I'm not really going to talk too much about them.
They kind of have their own importance on the ground, but they're not like important to this story in this episode because I'd like to kind of tell you kind of who they are Now and sort of what the kind of before and after unite the right kind of process is so I'm gonna introduce you to these four guys The main guy is this guy Mike Enoch.
Now, he and the kind of second-in-command were doxxed at one time in early 2017 right after the Trump election but before the inauguration I believe it's like right in that time frame and Mike Enoch, his real name is Mike Pinovich.
His father is a university professor.
His parents are, you know, kind of very WASP-y New England types who donate lots of money to Democratic political candidates.
He grew up in a million-dollar home.
Very much that kind of standard issue, like alt-right figure that I've kind of described previously.
These are well-off kids who grew up in the suburbs and he ends up going to New York City.
He gets a job at AOL around the time of the dot-com boom in the late 90s and early 2000s.
Without a college degree, I think he might have had a little bit of college, but mostly just kind of self-educated.
He learned to code and has kind of coasted along in his coding life ever since, up until the moment when he got doxxed in which he got unceremoniously shit-canned and I made this his full-time gig.
He was, at the time he got doxxed, married to a Jewish woman who they have since divorced.
He does not talk about anything about that on the show.
The clear implication is that there is a kind of a gag order preventing him from talking about anything about his wife or his personal life at that point.
And he is manifestly careful to never ever mention anything about that in public, as far as I can tell.
It is because of his Jewish, uh, Jewish wife or his Jewish ex-wife now that he is, um, denigrated as a Jew in other parts of the, uh, this far-right racist internet and, uh, in, uh, some circles he is called, uh, again, I apologize here, he is called Mike the Kaikapinovich, uh, because he is, uh, you know, they think he's Jewish and they isolate segments of him talking about his, um,
Jewish wife and sort of like oh am I tainted because I had a Jewish wife etc And they use that as a way of sort of demonstrating that he's actually talking about his own genetic heritage And like I listen to all these things like in their original context.
It's complete nonsense So far as I know there's no evidence that like he actually has Jewish heritage it's apparently mostly Norwegian heritage, but you know that's Mike Enoch and He's a good Aryan, then.
I think it's Norwegian and English or something.
Oh, Anglo-Saxon.
With a name like Pinovich, it is kind of like 100 years ago, you wouldn't have been living in this country either, you shithead.
Yeah, exactly.
He has a kind of a history with kind of far-right noodling about online.
He published a couple of pieces in one of kind of the Mises publications, the Von Mises Institute publications a couple of times.
He had a blog.
He was – he flirted around with this kind of far-right neo-reactionary libertarian stuff.
They called it egetarianism in sort of the early days of the podcast.
Um, really didn't embrace a, a really sorry, edutarian as in edge is an edgy libertarian.
Yes.
As in, as in we're libertarians, but we're also like race realists and stuff.
Um, and we'll kind of do the, um, and we'll kind of go places that the like respectable libertarian organizations like reason or whatever won't.
Um, and this kind of, um, Sense of approaching this material in that way, again, becomes really central to the brand and to the movement, certainly in kind of 2015 to up until Unite the Right, basically.
And even today to a large degree, it becomes central to the Right Stuff brand in general and to the Daily Show in particular.
TRS, I kind of differentiate between the two, although I'm, you know, TRS also has hosted many, many different other podcasts from other people who are sometimes directly and sometimes tangentially kind of connected to Enoch and his buddies.
At this point, I looked at their website this morning, they have 18 podcasts that they release, most of which are, have been around for a little while, and at least a third of which are kind of directly The same guys who do the Daily Show are just kind of doing other shows.
At one point that was more like 40 or 50 and it was kind of like very kind of indifferent quality.
One of the things about the kind of the declustering after Unite the Right is that TRS kind of went into self-protection mode.
Enoch in particular went into self-protection mode and basically disavowed quietly or overtly everybody that he thought might not kind of get in line with his own feelings about how this thing should be branded.
He is the one person who managed to talk himself out of the Sines v. Kessler lawsuit, which we talked about a bit in one of the Charlottesville episodes.
And it seems to me he just gave the judge enough double talk and he actually argued his case.
I was amazed when it happened, but the man can talk.
I'm not going to say he can't.
He is very good at spinning memes.
He's very good at spinning this sort of metapolitical language.
Some of them are very good at it.
Like squid squirting their cloud of ink into which they can disappear.
Right.
I mean, in the episode of Cantwell, I talked a little bit about the, like, the Chalmudic reasoning stuff, the sort of, like, using this kind of, like, the Talmudry of, you know, like, arguing around and, you know, kind of using high verbal IQs in order to kind of trick white people into believing certain things.
It kind of came up just because it kind of came up naturally in conversation, but that stuff isn't really associated with Cantwell.
It's associated with Enoch.
Enoch is the king of that.
In terms of accusing other people of it or doing it himself?
In terms of accusing other people of doing it, in terms of being able to sort of shift, like he considers himself a narrative guy.
The whole point of sort of the show is to Take the news of the day and then spin it in a direction that ultimately all of these stories are about race.
Ultimately, all of the problems that we're having in the society are resolvable down to some kind of base racial conflict or racial resentment.
It's all about these sort of like Jewish power brokers who are, you know, kind of controlling the media, who are controlling the narrative quote-unquote and it's all about sort of like this this political spin this kind of socio-political cultural spin that he puts on every event and just kind of spins it all in his way a lot of people and I disagree with some people and who kind of cover these guys a lot of people
I talk to think that Enoch is dumb because he says some manifestly dumb things I think he's smart.
I think he's mendacious.
I think he's lying.
And I've listened to enough of him that I think he's smart enough to know that what he's saying is bullshit.
I mean I think he believes the thing he believes, but I think he knows that he's spinning and he's doing it as a sort of professional political actor.
I mean he does this for a living now.
He is a professional political commentator.
He's just not doing it on like Fox News or whatever.
Yeah.
He sounds sort of like the far right version of Glenn Beck to me.
And the fact that we could even say that we're the far right version of Glenn Beck, like Glenn Beck being the reasonable moderate center, that's very 2019, right?
Yeah, that's terrifying.
But that is where we are, you know.
Glenn Beck's less mainstream than he used to be, but he's still...
Mainstream compared to these guys, but it's just the form, you know, I was thinking of which is that he inhabits that fuzzy zone somewhere in between, you know, talking complete batshit rubbish and knowing he's doing it and doing it, you know, for the money and the viewers, because it's his job, etc.
And he's a performer and actually sort of believing it because I remember when Glenn Beck sort of hit, you know, it was about 10 years ago.
And now I suppose he was on Fox News and he was sort of a cultural obsession with people.
And the people sort of the narrative about him was always oh he's crazy you know he's he's he's a lunatic he's paranoid etc and i remember thinking no he's he's a really bad actor that's what he is but at the same time of course they do still believe this crazy stuff.
I think I think Glenn Beck I mean kind of has come out and said that like oh some of that stuff I was I mean it was it was kind of an act it was kind of just for for for television ratings.
They are doing it in furtherance of things they really believe aren't they?
Exactly and it is sort of this case where for instance I believe fully that Mikey and I believes like everything he says about racial hierarchies and differences and you know kind of a creating a white ethno state in north america for instance um he believes that that's not the bullshit i mean it's stupid to believe that but like he he believes it for his own reasons yeah um but he lies in furtherance of that you know yeah um in the sense of you know for instance uh he
he was kind of one of the big people who was spinning the um heather hire um death uh you know at the right he was the one who sort of came up with the you know the back of the car was hit by anti-fascist and that's you know the fear you know kind of spewed him to go on and he said that within hours of this you know event happening um and it was certainly the first place i saw i saw like that narrative happen
and uh it just kind of spread like wildfire throughout the movement because like enoch is very effective at kind of coming up with these things that aren't going to spread um it's it's always the way the best propagandists do this i I'm not necessarily saying he's a great propagandist, but he is.
He is a great propaganda.
I mean, that's the that's the danger if he wasn't as good at it as he is.
He wouldn't have had the influence he's had.
Exactly, exactly.
But the best propagandists do do this.
They will consciously and cynically lie and manipulate the truth and spin stuff that they know isn't true.
And they will do it from deep conviction because there is no amount of mendacity that isn't justified in terms of Pushing what they believe to be the deeper truth.
Exactly.
I mean, you know, I think I think there is a sense of, you know, like framing a guilty man sort of thing that's going on in some of this where I think I think I can like demonstrate particular things where like he has to know this is a real but he'll never admit it and he will never.
So you'll never be able to really like demonstrate it to to a large degree of certainty.
But at the same time, he will In no way, uh, late.
It's all in service of sort of the greater good in his mind, and the greater good is, you know, kind of like ethnic cleansing of the United States.
Yeah.
That said, so Enoch kind of comes out of this kind of like pseudo-intellectual kind of, you know, internet world.
Lots of kind of discussions online.
He reads a fair number of books.
He's a, you know, he mentions Kevin Carson from time to time, which is weird for me.
Like, you know, he's He claims to have gone through a Marxist phase.
I don't believe that for a second, but he claims to have been a leftist for a while.
I believe he's floated around with some different ideologies.
He can speak to mutualism, for instance, in ways that does not feel...
you know, entirely off.
He kind of comes out of that sort of like, you know, intellectual like dorm room discussion side of the internet during the kind of 2000s.
It's sort of like, I believe he spent a lot of time in like internet forums arguing about arcane politics. - Oh yeah.
I mean, I, you know, I did a little bit of research into him myself for a previous project.
And at the same time, I read a little bit of Mencius Moldbug, the neo-reactionary.
And it's very similar because, you know, Moldbug will Drop loads of names of people that he's read you know he will talk about me says and and hobson lock and etc etc etc.
And you know it it's sort of superficially extremely learned an error died but the the actual content of it is just dribble.
Oh yeah, no, absolutely.
And a lot of the actual content in the show at this point is because they now have a sort of video component.
They've got enough money to actually set up cameras, and they do a kind of video version that's only behind their paywall.
And many of their shows, like a third of their shows, are only behind the paywall, plus they have paywall-only
Podcasts that they do and so like video is a huge part of their thing But I only listen to the audio version because I do not pay these people money But they have you know, there's no there's no ethical Consumption under capitalism, but that you know, some consumptions are more ethical than others if I thought they were if I thought they were releasing content that was really important for me to have
Behind the paywall, I would be willing to give them the 10 bucks a month, don't get me wrong.
But every indication I've seen is that it's basically the same stuff they're already putting out for free, just more of it.
And the last thing I need is more of Mike Enoch yelling into my ears.
Yeah, because in the last analysis they're all fucking grifters as well.
Right, exactly.
And again, I'm not giving him money.
If I thought there was a utility behind it, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but there's not, so I'm not.
A lot of what they do, they'll cover news stories, but then they'll also drudge up some piece of internet ephemera.
And, uh, kind of play it, and then talk over it, and make fun of it, uh, in these, uh, you know, just, you know, take this thing, um, we just kind of ended February, and February is Black History Month, so every year they do a thing called Fake Black History Month, where they talk about all the, like, all the things that you're learning in Black History Month are actually not real, um, and, uh, for instance that, you know, So they won't examine sort of the realistic sort of legacy of, you know, kind of race and invention in America.
They just point to the fact that like, oh, George Washington Carver, like, he invented peanut butter.
Like, yeah, and we invented quantum physics.
Like, it's literally like that kind of content.
That's the level of it, then?
That's the level of it.
With many, many more racial slurs and with Even lower level of, like, continuity.
And they've gone over that over and over again.
In fact, I have a segment that maybe we'll cover in detail sometime where they discuss the inventor of the potato chip, who is kind of often on these lists, you know, these kind of internet lists of, like, African American inventors, and they go over and it's like you know oh yeah this this this black man just was getting uppity with a white guy and he's like giving him because you know the story of the, the, the canonical like folk myth about the creation of the potato chip.
I guess the, uh, the, uh, the crisp in, in, in the UK, but, uh, the story is that there is a chef who, uh, was told, like, the potatoes, the fried potatoes he was making were too thick, and so he makes them, like, super thin, and boils them in oil, and then brings them up, and then, oh, look, the potato chip!
And, uh, this story is completely apocryphal, it's complete horse shit.
They believe in the story because they believe that what that really means is that there's this uppity black man who decided that he wasn't going to give the white man what he wanted, and he was going to just shove it in his face.
And then it just ended up being something that some other white guy realized was going to be really popular and managed to build into a full industry.
There's a really fascinating story behind the invention of the potato chip and this figure, which we will discuss later on, because it actually is interesting, and it does kind of show that they completely don't know anything.
The modicum of research behind that reveals a much deeper, more interesting world.
It's kind of a fascinating story.
I've got a clip, I might put it up in the show notes for you, but anyway.
Sorry, go ahead, Jack.
No, that's fine, don't worry.
I was just going to point out that they have to claim that something a black man supposedly invented was invented by accident.
But I think you covered that, so don't worry.
So much of invention is sort of by accident.
I think the point is also that there's no evidence that that's even true.
There are like levels of bullshit here that I'm just not like prepared to discuss in detail.
That's just one of those clips in my head because it was one of the early times that I like heard them just completely spew off into this nonsense and they'll go off for you know like a 20 minute segment about like you know a black man invented the potato chip and how ridiculous they think that is on so many levels and then the second you do the slightest bit of research into it you realize that like they're completely Off the rocker they have no understanding they don't know fucking research they don't know anything.
So like the intellectual content is at the level of like reciting stuff like Isaac Newton discovered gravity when an apple fell on his head and you know George Washington cut down the cherry tree and then said I cannot tell a lie father and they just repeat stuff like this that they think is relevant to their racist agenda.
You know when you know just going to wikipedia could tell them that this stuff is just focused that's the level we're talking about.
That's the level we're talking about like that's you know perspective i mean sometimes they will sort of have enough knowledge to kind of get well.
And they will look into it enough to to say like oh and then it turns out that you know things weren't so simple and it ends up being like there's it but it's always sort of like.
And furtherance of a sort of predetermined conclusion, which is that, you know...
Which is white supremacy, you know, ultimately, and so, you know, they will get like highly convoluted and make, you know, kind of pseudo intellectual arguments about stuff, but it's always in furtherance of this, you know, kind of particular, you know, the conclusion is already set, you know, and there's no attempt to sort of validate that because like validating stuff is for is for cocks, right?
It's gonna be like, like, you know, stuff about IQ that they got from the bell curve.
And old copies of the Ron Paul newsletters, you know.
Right.
Oh, they talk about IQ constantly.
The IQ thing.
We'll probably end up having to do an episode on IQ.
There's no way to get around that, I think.
Gee, I did not see that coming.
Sorry listeners, this is in stuff between these two.
There's so much behind-the-scenes stuff where we start listing episodes and it's like, oh my god, it just multiplies the more we talk about it.
IQ never comes up when Daniel talks about this off-air to me.
He never mentions IQ.
I don't get really upset at really stupid people talking about IQ.
It never bothers me at all.
Should I pull up my copy of The Bell Curve?
No, let's not do that today.
We'll do the IQ one another time, don't worry.
We'll get to it.
So I should mention... That will be a separate 17-episode series on IQ.
On the history of racist, abusing IQ?
Yeah, no, that's...
There probably is I would love to hear like an actual like IQ researcher do a do like an actual kind of deep dive on the literature I think there is like a kind of fascinating limited series about you know just the way that you know kind of racists use IQ and in their in their arguments, but anyway, oh I want to I want to Highlight one more thing or at least kind of move on a little bit from Enoch because he's not the only person There are three other people that we should mention
Who are sort of the kind of main, they call it the death panel is the sort of, you know, today on the death panel, we've got Mike and Sven and you know, etc.
And then they kind of bring on guests and at least it's sort of, yeah, exactly.
You know, this is the level of humor.
Vox Dei has been on the show.
I mean, you know, basically everybody who is, you know, in that sort of far right space.
Well, there's some intellectualism for you right there.
Right, Vox Dei.
Vox Dei is, for the listeners, I don't know, maybe who don't know, Vox Dei is a racist fantasy author, I suppose, and an all-round shit weasel.
You might have heard about him in connection with him completely fucking up the Hugo Awards a few years ago.
Yeah, the rabbit puppies were him.
Again, there's a Descent of Manosphere episode on him.
Go and watch that.
Which is pretty good.
But yeah, basically everybody in this kind of far-right space kind of guessed it, or at least sort of was.
Yeah, a whole lot of people guested on the Daily Show in 2016 and 2017, or in a couple of 2015 and 2017.
It was a really popular hub for this stuff.
And then again, after Unite the Right as part of the optics debate, they just sort of like shuttered up and it became much more You know just us and our sort of like key people that we trust to stay on to stay in within the bounds of what we consider acceptable.
In our safe space?
In our safe space, exactly, because they're really terrified.
I mean, Enoch is terrified any time they even mention, like, Opening up somebody's mail or something.
It's like oh, we would never do that in real life you know he's terrified about being accused of crimes that like the FBI is gonna listen and Use the slightest excuse to kind of come after him.
That's done an unreasonable fear if I were McKenna He's very smart about that.
I mean You know the the thing that you hear a lot if you they call it fed posting right where?
God this gets like in so many of these memes like to describe them as to sort of like they're three levels deep but the idea of Fed posting is that if you're within this movement anytime you see anyone sort of like overtly planning crimes or anyone sort of.
You know, saying things that, like, hey, wouldn't it be nice if we go blow up a building or wouldn't it be nice if we kind of do this?
They're actually either a federal agent or a federal informant trying to entrap you.
And so in the sort of modern movement, anytime anybody kind of does something of that nature, they're immediately suspect.
And so when people do say, like, oh, it would be nice if we could just kill them all, they will then append Comma in a video game.
So like in Minecraft or in, you know, Call of Duty, etc.
Because that way it's not real, it's satire.
And so that's just kind of another thing that, you know, and that seems to have originated.
I don't think it actually originated with the show, but certainly, again, kind of a big popularizer of it.
There are lots and lots of memes that you can sort of track as, like, Come directly from, like, this group of a handful of guys kind of bullshitting on a microphone.
And then the forums that no longer exist, as far as I can tell, but for a long time they had forums and you'd see kind of forum members kind of coming up with stuff in, like, text form.
Sometimes even in terms of, like, the pronunciation of words.
For instance, they will pronounce the word interesting with a sort of, like, high-pitched, like, kind of stereotypical female valley girl voice.
with um kind of a long i and so it'll be like interesting um i can't really do it because i'm not good at like kind of making voices that way um but if you hear uh but if you hear someone kind of pronouncing interesting in that way or if you see it in a um in a post or on a on a forum somewhere with the double i uh so two i's in the beginning of interesting um that's a trs meme that comes from these guys um what's that what is that supposed to mean
it's just supposed to mean that uh it's it's like part of the deep misogyny in the movement like the These memes don't even have meaning anymore.
It's just... It just is the insult to Valley Girls.
It just is the insult to Valley Girls, right.
So, I mean, it's essentially like, you know, like, so, oh, so you're, like, talking to women and you're, like, on a date or whatever and she's like, well, isn't it interesting that we have, like, you know, that people are still racist these days?
You know, like, it's that sort of thing.
I see.
It's about how girls are a bunch of empty-headed morons.
I see.
Exactly, exactly.
From this bunch.
From these fuckers.
Yeah, good.
Enoch is very proud.
He has bragged about the point several times that there has never been a female guest host on the Daily Showa.
That's not technically true, but it's close to true.
It's not technically true.
true they have had some uh you know at the beginning of the uh in the in the early days they actually had a uh kind of a cadre of female um uh um no not co-hosts but sort of uh you know like segment producers who did this thing called uh the shit lord report and they would kind of pre-write segments and then they would make like racist jokes and stuff and that was like a deliberately kind of female uh segment um and they have had um you know
but but it is it is almost it's true that they have never had a female voice on that show.
And certainly not in the last year or two.
I don't know if that's worse or better.
I'm just reporting here.
It just is what it is.
I just love the fact that he brags about something that isn't true and then he'll say it's not really true but it's basically true.
I don't know, I could, like, there's another, like, um... Sounds like Talmudic logic to me.
Oh, it does, doesn't it?
You know?
Like, I don't know.
Um, one of the other, like, they'll, they'll pronounce the word segway, you know, like, oh, we gotta, like, segway into the next segment or whatever, and they'll, uh, pronounce it segyou, and they seem to do that just because it's funny to them, uh, but, like, they say it every time.
They go, oh, we gotta, we gotta do another segyou.
And so, um... There's a real thing with this, isn't there, in these racist subcultures of just this sort of adolescent in-group In joke humor.
I mean, trace it right the way back to the early Klan.
It's sort of frat boys fucking about and creating silly rituals.
And I think that that's the thing.
I mean, and this kind of gets back to, like, kind of part of where we started here, where, you know, the point isn't like we call ourselves the Daily Shoah and we are actually, like, openly advocating a daily holocaust.
That's not the point.
The point is multifold.
One, if you see that title and you're immediately put off by it, you're not our audience.
If you see that title And you think it's, like, kind of funny.
I mean, like, literally, like, a lot of this humor is just, like, finding new ways of saying, like, the same old racist bullshit, but in sort of, like, clever new ways.
Yeah.
Um, and so, uh, you know... Because their repertoire is so fucking small, isn't it?
It's just the same crap over and over again.
Oh yeah, no definitely.
And again, you know, I listen to so much of it and it's just sort of like, because occasionally there's something new that kind of pops out and it's important to kind of know what they're saying so I can track all the new memes and everything.
But, you know, the point is also, and in particular with the Holocaust, and we will do an episode on the Holocaust soon, I promise.
I look forward to that!
Yippee!
But the point of that is, you know, they call themselves the Daily Shoah as a way of making the Holocaust not something that's worth discussing.
Like, they don't want to have like a real conversation about, you know, whether the Holocaust happened, for instance.
The point is to turn it into a punchline so that their audience, who are, you know, overwhelmingly young, overwhelmingly, you know, in their 20s or younger, Um, we'll push discourse to the degree that, um, any time that the Holocaust is mentioned, it's like, oh, you believe in the Holocaust?
I'd never thought of that, thought of it that way before.
Um, I mean, like the three pronged thing.
Firstly, you know, if you, if you have a shred of basic human decency, you're not our audience.
And then there's the finding a new quote-unquote amusing way to say the same old crap for the 10 billionth time, but the last one particularly.
They're not of that generation that want to endlessly have the Holocaust denial quote-unquote debate necessarily, but what they want to do is kind of circumvent it.
So what you do is you turn it into a glib joke, whereupon it becomes something that you just sort of brush aside.
Same thing with like, you know, sort of like...
You know, any kind of conversation about sort of like a disparate, you know, sort of like socioeconomic outcomes between like races, for instance, any kind of discussion of like systemic historical factors.
And it's like, oh, come on, get out of here with that bullshit.
You know, it's just that sort of like we don't even have to consider that we have disproven it like so many ways.
And like we just we're just going to pull up like FBI crime statistics and like the statistics about like, you know, who's committing crimes are Like, um, no, um, you know, conversation about, like, how that data is collected, or what that data means, or, uh, you know, that, that the, that the, like, uh, they'll just mention, like, FBI Table 43.
FBI Table 43 is, like, victimization by race.
Uh, yeah, like, uh.
And so if you see a reference to FBI Table 43, you already know what they're going to say.
This is about, like, black crime data, for instance.
And any discussion of that, like, in its appropriate context and, like, what is, you know, by that time you're already losing the debate because suddenly...
You're forced to kind of combat this like meme culture by which it's sort of become a truism and so much of what this movement is trying to do is to create the new set of truisms that become the new basis by which this sort of discourse continues.
I was just gonna say, I think that's a really valuable insight.
You know, they're trying to create truisms and endlessly put the people that want to unpack them, you know, and interrogate them onto the back foot because, as you know, as they say, when you're explaining, you're losing.
So they just take these things for granted.
They take them as read.
So they've invented this rhetorical strategy where they can just sort of endlessly skim along the surface of things.
With these casual jokey references to things that are by implication just already settled.
Exactly.
So we don't need to, yeah.
And the longer they kind of run their shows and the more they can kind of get you into this meme culture to where it's all this sort of like sets of nested in jokes.
The harder it is for someone on the outside to penetrate that, and the harder it is to kind of reach people with real information.
And the more enclosed you are inside what Dave Newhart called the epistemological bubble.
Exactly, exactly.
And, you know, so much of what I feel like kind of my projects and the reason that I'm fascinated by this is because, I mean, this is, it poisons your brain.
It poisoned my brain.
I mean, you know, I've, you know, hundreds of hours of listening to these guys, like, spread this nonsense.
Like, it does affect you, you know?
Honey, ContraPoints said a similar thing about studying incels, you know?
She said that she started to, sort of, against her own better instincts, without knowing it, she started thinking in terms of incel buzzwords, you know?
Because the poison got in.
And, you know, it's just sort of the reality of kind of dealing with it, and everybody who follows this stuff sort of has to have a way of taking a break from it.
It has to have a way of kind of neutralizing it, and, you know, you have to stay grounded.
But they enjoy their symptoms.
That's the problem, isn't it?
They don't want to stay grounded.
Well, for them, the point, like, This is the one point at which the, like, you know, oh, if it's a white man listening to this, you know, we're gonna convince him in the end.
And, like, this is the one time when it sort of becomes, like, the thing where, you know, you absorb into that, like, sort of, like, this little bubble of theirs, and you kind of understand their means to the point to where, like, I can, like, I can now see the world through their eyes.
Like, I know what take they're gonna have on a new story, because I can think through this, like, internal logic, right?
Um, and once you realize, like, when I realized I could, like, watch... I realized one day I was watching, like, you know, uh, footage from one of the hurricanes.
And it was a bunch of, like, African American people, like, stealing shoes from a, uh, from a, from a, like, a footlocker or whatever.
And, uh, I realized that I had that immediate response of, like, oh god, I know exactly what the show guys are gonna say about this, you know?
And I realized that I could, like, see it through that lens, and I could see, like, these aren't, like, human beings, like, kind of seeking out resources that have, um, you know, extreme socioeconomic depravity kind of, like, thrust upon them by racist white supremacist society, seeking shoes so that they could sell it for other resources, or even just, like, wanting some fucking sneakers.
Like, suddenly I wasn't seeing it through that lens, I was seeing it through that, like, Incredibly racist humanizing racist blends you know and it's a really disturbing thing to recognize in yourself and i say it here as a way of like you know this stuff is fucking dangerous like i know what they're doing and it you know works on me occasionally.
I think it's a really another really valuable insight actually because you know what you're describing is what's been described as a sort of an internal switch.
You know, that can be flicked.
And you choose not to flick the switch.
You found the switch through listening to them flick it endlessly, endlessly, endlessly.
So you know what happens when you flick the switch.
All the context, all the history, all the complex, messy reality disappears.
And you just see everything through this simplistic racial lens that's based on fear and loathing.
And you but you choose not to flick the switch you stay in the land of context and history and reality and everything like that where is they they choose to flick the switch and i think that's a real you know to see the world in one way rather than another and i think that's a really valuable thing because so often we talk about these people like.
You know, sometimes people talk about these guys like they're kind of sufferers from an illness, and I think there's really a degree of sort of enjoying shitting your pants about fascism.
I think there's sort of an enjoyment of sitting in the shit and flinging it around the place, and it's very voluntary on that level.
They choose to do it because it's kind of a, you know, fascism is kind of a dirty protest against civilization.
You know, and these guys, they found the switch and they're flicking it because they get good, they get, you know, good feelings from it.
It's like behaviorism.
Press the button, get the little buzz.
It's like an addiction.
And you get, like, again, another episode we're definitely going to have to talk about is sort of the role of social media and sort of feeding this, but, you know, certainly sort of like social media likes and sort of upvotes and retweets and such.
Play that play that game, you know, if you can make a sort of like you can put a new spin on a racist slur and get you know, a thousand retweets on it, you know, it's it's it's a good feeling and suddenly and it's rewarding the worst kind of behavior, you know,
Um, if you can, like, trigger the libs and you can get, like, a whole bunch of people who you, uh, have already dehumanized in your, uh, ideology to, uh, to freak out at you and to, like, throw at you, you know, kind of the, you know, they want people to throw them sort of the standard lines, you know, they want people to throw them the, um, You know the the how dare you they want people to just kind of go it's 2019.
How can you believe that?
Because they've got the responses to that stuff off Pat haven't they exactly and certainly I mean there there's a video there videos online I mean, you know, um Enoch was uh, sorry, I wasn't gonna go into this but Enoch was on a Andy Warsky's channel in early 2018.
This was during the kind of early days of internet blood sports.
I don't really want to go into the details of that history just because it'll take us pretty far afield, but we will come back to this, I promise.
It's a big topic.
I'm sorry.
Enoch was on one of these live streams and he was Yeah, basically if you, there's like a cut down version of this, which is, you know, like Enoch takes on three liberals and like, you know, totally owns them or whatever.
And the three people who came on were, you know, so it's like Warski and then JF who, again, whole other episode.
J.F.
Gary Eppie.
J.F.
Gary Eppie, who is kind of the co-host of this Warski Live thing.
And the three people that kind of came on to quote-unquote debate Enoch were Tim DeMotivator Opinion, this guy BronxBlogger, who I believe was listening to the podcast because he now follows me on Twitter as of like the last week or two, so hi, nice to have you on, BronxBlogger, who is an anarcho-communist, and then Kevin Logan.
Kevin Logan was on.
And these are three really bright people who understand discourse on the internet, who kind of understand how this stuff works.
And Enoch, frankly, he completely annihilates them.
And the way he does it is because he's not kind of going by the standard right-wing talking points.
He's pushing a completely different set of reactionary talking points.
And Tim was just trying to understand what Enoch believed.
He was just trying to explain this to me.
I don't believe you.
And he hasn't delved into the racist literature to the point.
And so, you know, I can just kind of walk circles around him.
And that's not an insult to Tim there.
I mean, not in any way.
I quite like a lot of his videos.
But it's just a, you know, you weren't prepared for this.
And you went into a debate with someone who has, like, spent years and years arguing on, like, Facebook political discussion groups in terms of getting the shortest, most succinct way of sort of, like, defeating your enemies possible.
And again, if you're explaining, you're losing.
And, like, ultimately, All you can do is say you're completely misrepresenting things, this is complete horseshit, and it's very difficult to meet Enoch point for point.
Keep your balance because he's just willing to kind of be mendacious and lying because he's clever in that.
I mean, he's very, very good at that.
Yeah.
And they're very practiced.
And that's the point of debate for them, which is to, you know, performatively destroy the other side.
Whatever the quality of the argument, it doesn't matter.
The point is winning.
Debate's really a bad forum for arriving at sort of truths, especially because especially when one party is just manifestly not approaching it in good faith.
And I think a lot of people don't get, I mean, this is another thing that's kind of gone mainstream, isn't it?
With these endless sort of Ben Shapiro destroys Libtard, etc.
stuff.
And what they sort of pick on, you know, college kids who aren't necessarily the most experienced or knowledgeable people yet.
And they, you know, people like Shapiro and he's, you know, he's very good at this as well.
He's not quite a fascist, but he's definitely, you know, very right wing.
He knows how to run rings around people rhetorically regardless of whether what he's saying makes any sense whatsoever.
And the point is that sort of performative, well, I just smacked you down, didn't I?
And that's what they're in it for.
It's like I always say, you know, it doesn't matter that 9-11 trutherism is a bunch of bullshit.
If you don't know anything about aeroplanes and metallurgy and rocket fuel and you get into a debate with an experienced 9-11 truther, they will wipe the floor with you.
It's the Gish Gallop.
I mean, I'm sure you know this phrase, but it's named after Dwayne Gish, who was a creationist, one of the original 1960s creationists, who would get into arguments with scientists who wanted to discuss the ideas, and he would just sort of put out 15 different talking points in 15 seconds, and then a scientist coming in and trying to pull all that apart.
Uh, can't possibly cover it all, and that's, and that's, I mean, you know, that's, that's the Shoah, that's the Daily Shoah in, in general.
That's just sort of the form of it, is there are so many lies, there's so much bullshit, there's so much stuff that's just completely lacking any context that, you know, I could, I could have a full-time job just transcribing the fucking episodes and, like, detailing all the lies and putting it out there for people, but it would be, you know, 40 hour podcast or it would be, you know, like a book length thing like every fucking week to try to like challenge it all, you know, and the volume of the bullshit.
I mean, it's not just these guys.
It's the whole movement kind of relies on there's just so much bullshit out there.
They just produce so much content that you can remain ensconced in this forever.
Yeah, well I was looking at Confronting Denial, I was looking at their blog the other day and they have this whole section that's just them debunking YouTube Holocaust denial videos, right?
And you go to one page and there's six, five, six different debunks of five or six different, and this is just a sample of course, of the endless supply of Holocaust denial videos on YouTube.
And there's links to other pages about other Holocaust deniers that they've debunked, and you go to one section about one video, and it says, well, he mentions this, and this leads to this issue, which we've debunked here, and then you click that link, and you just, within a minute or two, you lost down a rabbit hole of them debunking, I mean, they do it brilliantly, I'm not having a go at them, it's a great site, they debunk it thoroughly, but, you know, you'd be there for days following the links
About one 20 minute YouTube video because the level of crap that it's stuffed with takes pages and pages and pages and pages of these brilliant people debunking it point for point.
This is part of why it works.
Exactly.
And, you know, when we do our episode on Holocaust denial, there's a particular thing that I'm going to—there's like a particular video we're going to go into in some detail, and it is an episode of The Daily Show, so look forward to that, audience.
And Jack, as well!
I want to cover the other three major guys.
Yeah, sorry, we did go a bit wide there.
I think it's a really worthwhile conversation.
Honestly, I almost didn't put notes together for this one because it's just sort of like I could talk about these guys forever.
But yeah, the other guys involved.
Sure, your second in command is a former musician, kind of a former goth kid.
I believe he had working class jobs coming up.
He liked painting houses and hanging drywall and that kind of stuff.
He has been doxed at the same time that Enoch was doxed.
He was doxed.
His real name is Jesse Dunston.
He was formerly in a band called Mathematic the Waves.
I have put a link to their band page if you want to go listen to their music.
I'm going to withhold judgment on the quality of that music for here.
Jesse did not come in.
I mean, he was involved in sort of The same kind of like internet discussion forums, but with a slightly different bent.
He was not as interested in sort of the pseudo-intellectualism as much as he was just the racist humor.
He's the guy on the show when Enoch kind of goes into his intellectual sophistry.
Again, intellectual in quotes there.
Sven Will... sorry, Sven is the name he goes by on the show.
His real name is Jesse.
He kind of... it's interchangeable.
Sven Will...
Either play a drop like they have like these kind of pre-made audio drops and he'll kind of like play some something that like has a slur in it or has some some joke, you know Or he'll he'll just kind of start making it kind of making fun of Mike or make fun of Something in there like he's he's constantly just kind of throwing the humor in just to kind of throw you knock off of Whatever point he's making.
Sven seems to come from these sort of, like, online message boards.
These sort of, like, overtly racist versions of, like, Something Awful and that sort of thing.
A lot of these have names.
Like, one of them is, like, again, I apologize for the language.
I told you, like, some of the proper nouns we have to cover, actually.
There's one called, like, Niggerology.
And this is a board.
I mean, it still exists.
It's a shitty little website.
And you can go in and it's a forum and you can click on things and it's basically, you know, like all every like any anti-black stereotype that you can imagine just in one place.
And if you do, go check out that website, which, why should you?
But you really understand Sven because it's exactly his sense of humor.
That's exactly the sort of thing he'll do, is just kind of find new ways of making fun of African Americans and Jews, and using ethnic slurs, coming up with ever more creative ways of Describing, you know, sort of, uh, you know, for South Asian people, people from India or Pakistan, the term is like poo in the loo.
And this is referencing the fact that in this sort of racist diatribe.
People from that part of the world don't know how to use a toilet.
Oh, that's an obsession with all these people.
I mentioned Vox Dei earlier.
Vox Dei is obsessed with the idea that Africans can't use toilets properly.
Or river shitters, based on the fact that the Ganges is filthy with...
Flick the switch.
because of you know and of course there's this huge like history of colonialism and you know such that has nothing to do with like the people of india are like defouling their environment because they're genetically predisposed to do so or whatever um all of that context lost which abstract to the context the history everything yeah it's it's not it's not about like it's about flipping the switch and then you know they're not human beings that are suffering through a terrible deprivation They're river shitters.
And once you can, once you can put that name on them, you've completely dehumanized them.
And they're not, and they're not your problem anymore.
There's so much projection.
I said it was a dirty protest, didn't I?
That's why they're obsessed with other people shitting.
Anyway, sorry, go on.
Other figures, I'm trying to kind of get to a certain point here.
Alex McNabb, who is our Nazi EMT I've mentioned a couple of times.
He's from rural Virginia.
He was an EMT guy.
He used to call in from the backseat of his ambulance when he was on call.
That's gotta be against some rules somewhere, but there's probably no way of actually proving that it happened or if he was just saying it happened or whatever.
Um, he was kind of brought up on, uh, you know, kind of an investigation into whether he had, uh, there were any incidents of kind of racial bias in terms of his, uh, treating of the majority African American population.
Um, I will, um, kind of put the, I did put this in the show notes as of a couple of days ago.
It is, uh, the results of that investigation have been, um, released and apparently there, they can find no, uh, kind of direct evidence of him, uh, being racially biased towards, uh, any person, uh, through his job.
And I just want to, just for journalistic integrity, I'm going to say that for, you know, I'm just, I'm putting it out there for you.
He is a deeply, deeply unreconstructed racist person who is like a completely stupid human being who pretends to like a faux intellectualism.
And this is not meant to be like some kind of classist thing because he's from the, because he's from the South.
He's, he's just a, he's just a very, very stupid man.
The other guy, now Alex McNabb, he would often call himself the Undoxable Alex McNabb because he went by his real name.
And apparently he got to do that for years before anybody really paid any attention.
The fourth member of this podcast, what's the for version of a triumvirate?
Quadriumvirate?
Tetrarchy, I guess.
Tetrarchy, yeah.
The fourth member of our tetrarchy here is a guy named J.O.
De La Rey.
Now, J.O.
kind of used to hang out in Neo-Reaction circles kind of back in the day.
He is from Detroit, he admits to being from Detroit, which might mean Detroit suburbs.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, no, it's okay.
I was just laughing at the word admits.
Yeah, I mean, he's open about the fact that he's from Detroit.
He has not been identified.
He is one of the absolute worst people in this movement, and I'm gonna justify that here in a minute.
My guess is that he has some connection to the NSM people because of just some of the language he uses and some of the, uh, I think he's kind of had like buddies who are like hammer skins, which were the, um, neo-Nazi skinhead groups.
Um, he looks like that type.
He kind of talks, he talks tough.
All these guys talk tough.
I believe there might be some reality behind it.
Um, but he has not been docked.
And so, uh, it would be really nice if somebody would figure out who he was and, uh, we had a little bit more context for that, but.
As a way of sort of, um, I meant to kind of do this at the beginning, um, as opposed to kind of talking about their jokes, um, just because I didn't want to, uh, kind of feel like this was going to be, like, a funny one.
I, I, like, I deliberately wanted to kind of get away from the jokes, um, but I like the way that we did this because I think we're going to end on one of the, um, something really horrible.
And, uh, J.O.
De La Rey, who is one of the four paid employees of this, um, organization, Who is on not every episode, but he's on very many episodes.
He is he is kind of guest hosted on other shows plenty of times.
He is he writes a segment for one of the other podcasts called the Europa Report.
Well, he writes a segment called the Europa Report for this other podcast, Fashion of the Nation, and then that's read by someone else.
And this is basically collecting all the horrible refugee crime stories from Europe, essentially.
So he is very well connected in this.
This is not some French character within this.
Um, I mentioned earlier that, um, these guys are trying to kind of rebrand as sort of like, just, oh yeah, we're just racist comedians.
Um, we're just kind of making edgy jokes.
Um, that's always their defense, is, you know, whenever they're kind of approached by the mainstream, oh no, this is just a gag, this is just something we're doing, uh, for funsies, right?
Um, Geodilla Ray is an unironic exterminationist, and by that I mean, He believes in the large-scale extermination of pretty much every non-white person on the face of the planet.
Maybe not immediately, but at some point in the not-too-distant future.
And he believes it unironically.
This is not a kind of joking position that he holds.
This is a real, this is going to be necessary at some point down the line for us.
This is something he explicitly advocates without a caveat.
Without a caveat.
And so we've discussed sort of the pluses and minuses of sort of having a Putting clips into the show and I have a I do have a clip it is gonna be in the show notes You can you can go listen to it.
It is called unironic exterminationism if you want to listen to this But um, I transcribed this a while back and I'm gonna read kind of a segment of it to give you a sense of how dark this stuff gets that this is what's behind all the joking nature of it and hopefully he'll send to me talk about it and Um, will not be as bad as listening to the, um, original text.
So, um, if you want to turn off this episode right now, uh, this is pretty much the end for now.
So, um, I completely understand that, but, um, I'm gonna kinda, now that I've introduced you to these four figures, I think reading this will, um, give you, uh, kinda give you the sense of what it's like to listen to these people talk for, uh, several hundred hours.
This is in the context of talking about the South African farm murders, which they believe is a kind of coded, slow-moving white genocide.
The thing that is going to happen in the United States the second the white population drops below 50%.
This is from about a year and a half, almost two years ago at this point, and so I can give you the exact episode number, but I just kind of clipped it out, and I have, and this is my transcription, and I'm going to just kind of read segments of it, but the point is to sort of give you the needed context.
This is kind of what they're talking about.
And so Enoch says, but was Mandela really a communist or just pro-black and anti-white?
J.O.
Both.
I think both.
But the way they whipped up their people was just, hey, white people have stuff and it belongs to you so go blow them up and take it.
Enoch.
Which is sort of the future?
J.O.
He knows his own people are retarded.
Absolutely.
I don't think it was like a Cold War move to fuck the West, because the West had all these embargoes put on them too, you know?
I think this was an explicitly racial thing.
It was like the last stand of implicit white identity, right?
The last country that had some form of segregation.
And that's why every time I talk about this, I come back to this point.
I talk about this on every show I go on.
People say, well, how do we prevent this from happening?
Listen, there's no version of segregation that will ever work because somebody will use it as a cudgel against you.
Some outsider will use it as a cudgel against you.
And no federal body will ever allow for secession, especially not from its productive class.
They're not gonna let whites have a homeland.
They'd pay all the fucking taxes down there.
And they wouldn't let the U.S.
do anything similar.
I'll remind you, 150 years ago, 600,000 fucking people killed each other.
And even being a continent away from each other, um, we still find a way to fucking have conflict.
Okay, well, we understand these people are retarded, so hey, we'll buy them up and put them to work on our farms.
You can't live around these people.
You can't have them in the next town over.
Someone will always leverage them, or they will leverage you, or one way or another, the shit's always gonna fall apart.
And that's why I get ragged on for being the unironic exterminationist, but until someone comes up with another solution that hasn't historically failed, that's where it stands.
Sven.
Hmm.
That's rough.
Enoch.
So you think that just like because the thing is and before people start to get upset about what you just said, and it is radical and upsetting, but it's also like South Africa is seeing its termination.
Sven.
It's termination the other way is what's going on now.
He's laughing while he says that.
Enoch.
So the thing is that for somebody like us to say that is like, how shocking, how terrible, how awful.
And that's gonna be focused on.
It's something that would be brought up and, oh, you're talking about like a race war and one side having to win.
And it's like, well, in South Africa, there's a race war, okay?
And the blacks are winning that war.
And we're supposed to apologize for pointing out that eventually, when the demographic situation gets to a certain point, this will happen, right?
And you think, oh, this can be managed, that can be managed, this can be managed.
Maybe so.
But so far, the evidence shows that a demographic issue like in the United States is used to create social wedges, interest groups, and then you push and push, and that white people are down to 60% of the United States, and it's going to fall, and the conflict is only going to increase.
You don't reduce the conflict by increasing the diversity.
Sven.
Well, you reduce it to nothing once you've won.
Once you've increased the diversity to 100%, I mean, that's how ethnic conflict goes.
One wins, one loses.
And we're headed to where they are right now, where they have these black quote-unquote students, like, destroying artwork and things inside the university down there, and just destroying every edifice of what white's built down there, everything they can get their hands on.
And I think that's enough for now.
Well, yeah, that's a deeply disturbing, nauseating peek inside these heads, these people's heads.
But it goes to show they do believe this stuff.
And they do believe that there is an irreconcilable racial conflict.
And they do believe that white people are superior.
And they do believe that black people are a bunch of murderous savages.
And they do believe that they have the right to kill them like animals.
That is absolutely what these people think.
And that the state should be used for that purpose.
Yeah.
Enoch is incredibly sort of anti-interventionist war, like he kind of got into this through that, right?
But he's not sort of on humanitarian grounds that the United States shouldn't be killing people.
The idea is they shouldn't be killing people across an ocean.
The idea is we should just bring all that military home and put it on the southern border and kill anybody who tries to step over the border.
That's essentially the position.
Libertarians and reactionary anti-statists.
They're never actually against state power.
They're against state power being used, you know, for stuff they don't like.
If it's being used for their racist stuff, they're fine with it.
You know, if it's killing brown people or persecuting black people or whatever, that's fine.
It always is.
Or Jews.
And this is exactly the sort of mindset that you would have heard around the table at the Wannsee conference.
Yeah.
Which is where the Nazi bureaucracy planned the genocide of the Jews in the 1940s.
It was kind of more of a planning meeting, but yeah, no, it's a... It's a coordination between bureaucracies.
But it's the mindset that's operative.
They don't... They very rarely go this explicit on this stuff.
I want to be clear about that.
But they do that specifically as a way of avoiding sharing their real thing.
It's so much better if they... They want you to think they're just a bunch of jokesters making a more racist Opie and Anthony show.
They want you to think of them as shock jocks.
That's not what they are.
These people are, and I want to be clear, Enoch doesn't think this is, like he's not looking forward to this.
He thinks it's a bad thing.
He doesn't want it to happen, but he thinks it's probably necessary.
He thinks this is probably one of the things that is going to be necessary down the line in order to preserve Quote, white identity.
And that's always the way with the genocidal people that, you know, there's always a lot of them that are, well, you know, it's a shame.
It's it's a shame.
It's I mean, this is again, this is Himmler's speeches to the SS.
This is saying, look, this is dirty work, you know, and we're going to have to keep it secret because it doesn't look nice.
But we have to do it.
It's the right thing to do.
And the fact that we're going to do it and remain something he says about remaining Humane despite, you know, absolutely obscene stuff, but that's how they think of it.
They think of this, you know, killing Jews or killing black people or whatever.
They think of it as like exterminating lice or bacteria.
Yeah.
So these people are fucking poison.
You don't need to tell me that, believe me.
I know, I know.
No, no, sorry.
It's tough to kind of approach it that directly sometimes.
Yeah, yeah.
But this is what they don't want you to see.
This is the, you know, what you've just read to us is the mask slipping.
Exactly, exactly.
And, um, this is, this is the murderous intent.
The systemic murderous intent behind every single one of those fucking Pepe memes, every single one of those Gas Chamber memes, everything that was like, oh no, we're just kind of making jokes.
This is just joking around.
We're just laughing at stuff that we find stupid and silly.
And we're just like, normally right-wingers who just, you know, want to, like, consider race.
And we're just after, uh, protecting our, um, That's what we're trying to prevent here, right?
doing this out of love for our people.
No, that's not what this is about.
That's never what this is about.
And I haven't even talked about the vicious trans misogyny and transphobia.
I mentioned the misogyny.
I mean, it goes so much fucking deeper than this.
But unironic exterminationism, that's what this movement is built on.
And that's what we're trying to prevent here, right?
Yeah.
And I think I want to leave it at that.
Yeah.
No, I mean, thank you for, you know, thank you for hacking through the jungle of this and, you know, and bringing that back.
Because I don't know how many people, I don't know how many people will have heard that, you know.
It's around.
There are, you know, if you kind of Google it, you can kind of find it.
There are other places it was covered on, other people who kind of follow this movement.
Um, but uh, yeah, no, it's, it needs to be, I want this segment to be like shoved into Enoch's face every time he shows himself in anything resembling polite society.
Yeah, this is who you really are.
Yeah.
And we know.
Yeah.
We see you.
We see you.
This is the segment that when Alex McNabb was questioned about his beliefs in his racist show.
This is the segment.
I wish that somebody had read this to him and said, is this something that you believe?
He wasn't there for that episode, so you can't like pin that directly on him.
But these are the people you hang out with, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Everybody who's ever appeared on The Daily Show, which is basically everybody on this alt-right movement, has some connection to these guys.
They're deliberately hanging out with people, they are associating with people who believe this.
Yeah, and that makes them guilty.
Complicit at the very least.
Yeah, absolutely.
No.
Okay, that's Mike Enoch.
And the Daily Shower.
At least the introduction.
There's so much more.
Introduction, yeah.
This is it.
This is not exhaustive.
You know, this is a peek into the swamp.
Into the nightmare.
Yeah.
Next time we're going to do some big picture stuff, I think.
And kind of look into a little bit of the history.
I think we're going to look at the movementarians versus the vanguardists.
Uh, which is, uh, more of a, um, it's moving away from kind of the modern movement and looking, looking again, kind of more at the history, more it's sort of this, um, division because one of the things that I highlight here is that, like, someone like Mike Enoch wants the government to do this for him.
But there are other kind of figures who are want to really kind of get their hands dirty a lot more directly and This is a really important division and a really important kind of cleave point That again is not as well understood as I as I want it to be and so It's really important to sort of like highlight that at some point.
So we're gonna do a whole episode on it next week That sounds really interesting.
Okay, right, well that's next week.
We should probably plug the live stream that you just did.
Yeah, we should plug our pluggables, right?
Yeah, yeah.
You were just on a live stream, Queer Transmission, I think it's called.
And that's on, is it Comrade Sarah?
She's called, isn't she?
Yeah, something like that.
We can put her Twitter in the show notes.
And she was a very lovely host, and it was supposed to be, I was supposed to be one of four people who kind of came on for a 30-minute segment.
Everybody else got sick or had to cancel, so I ended up kind of spending about an hour and 20 minutes discussing some of the, in kind of like big-picture detail, a lot of the stuff that we've kind of covered on this podcast.
And she discovered me through this podcast.
So, Thank you for inviting me on, Sarah.
It was fun.
Hopefully we'll do it again sometime.
And we did get invaded by Nazis because we were doing a YouTube live stream, and so you get to watch that happen in real time as well.
So, fun times.
So yeah, I'll put a link to Sarah's Twitter and the live stream in the show notes.
Apart from that, I don't know if I really want to plug my stuff now after that, to be honest.
We should do it at the beginning.
Like, hey, you just listened to us talk about genocide.
Give me money to my Patreon.
I think I don't know about you, but I think I'll plug my stuff another time.
You know, if you if you want to find me, you can find me.
