I Don't Speak German, Episode 8: The National Socialist Movement
In this episode, Daniel tells Jack all about the present-day American Nazis, in the forms of the Traditionalist Workers Party (TWP), the National Socialist Movement (NSM), and related people and organisations, especially the Nationalist Front. We pay special attention to the best known representative of this nauseating subculture, Matthew Heimbach, and touch on the internal debacle which became known as 'The Night of the Wrong Wives'. Warnings apply - as always. Reminder: we're on iTunes and YouTube * Show Notes Christopher Hasson - Lt. in the Coast Guard, planning fascist domestic terrorism - arrested * Book: Everything You Love Will Burn by Vegas Tenold * National Socialist Movement website Black Civil Rights Advocate Takes Control of the NSM TWP Website (Archived) Nationalist Front Vice Documentary "White Student Union" 2013 Matt Heimbach American Freedom Party 2013 Heimbach assaults woman at Trump Rally The Neo-Nazi Has No Clothes Article about Tony Hovater "A Voice of Hate in America's Heartland." The Night of Wrong Wives Heimbach becomes community outreach director for NSM Heimbach removed from NSM White Right: Meeting the Enemy (available on Netflix) SPLC file on Matthew Heimbach SPLC file on TWP SPLC file on Jeff Schoep SPLC file on NSM League of the South secedes from the Nationalist Front Matt Heimbach on the Radical Agenda * Wrong With Authority episode on Mississippi Burning
This is episode 8 of I Don't Speak German, and oh my god, it's a terrible, terrible world we live in, folks.
It really is.
It really is.
So this week we are doing actual, literal Nazis, which are still a thing.
I'm sorry to have to inform you, but yeah, a little bit of catch up as we always do.
Daniel, how are you doing?
Remember back when you used to just talk about Dr. Who?
Yeah, it was lovely.
Wasn't it?
What a lovely world.
I mean, we mainly talked about how much we didn't like it, but we mainly talked about like, you know, how Doctor Who was referring to, you know, various political systems and kind of the terrible politics of the past and present, but.
It does feel like a slightly different era than today.
It does a bit, doesn't it?
Perspective, you know, perspective.
Although this is a little bit of the, you know, if Hillary had won, we'd all be at brunch, you know, grousing.
But, you know, that's just life, right?
Yeah.
So yeah, as I say, we are going to do a little bit of catch-up first.
Firstly, I mean, there is more that's happened in Christopher Cantwell land, but there always is, isn't there?
So I don't know if we're going to go into it now.
Well, I can read you a Gab post you put up today, if you're interested, just to see, you know, just to get your little weekly dose of Cantwell, your subcon of Cantwell's genius.
Just a bit, just a bit.
I keep hearing people say, anti-Semitism is at its worst since World War II.
Well, since the Jews haven't corrected their terrible fucking behavior, I suspect we're going to set a new record pretty soon, and that day cannot come soon enough.
Lovely.
So that's Christopher Cantwell, who is, I would like to note, not a Holocaust denier, suggesting that what maybe is going to happen to the Jews in the near future, if he has any say about it.
It's one of those ironies about Holocaust denial, isn't it?
That it's kind of, you know, it didn't happen, but I wish it did.
Whereas he's just sort of, he's just saying, yeah, it happened and it's good.
His perspective on that is more, I haven't done the requisite research into determining whether I think it could be true or not, and we will do a whole episode on how Holocaust denial works among these guys, and we'll talk a little bit about that today, I suspect, but it is worth mentioning.
Yeah, I mean, Cantwell kind of says out loud what a lot of the rest of them just kind of keep to their private servers.
He just kind of puts it right out there.
That's life.
He's also still battling the Bowl Patrol guys.
There's a whole drama about that.
I figure we'll just cover all that when we finally do the Bowl Patrollers at some point in the future.
OK, so we can move on from Mr Cantwell to more horrible things that are going on.
More horrible things.
Before we even get to our main topic today, it is, you know, I'm in contact with some people who kind of cover, you know, extremism, who are like academics and journalists and, you know, kind of work with law enforcement and such.
And there's a story that, you know, typically, you know, you find these these kinds of stories that happen and You know, somebody's arrested or whatever, and you know, we kind of trade them back and forth and kind of talk about it, but it's usually just kind of, oh, another guy who, you know, will start piling weapons.
Um, this one really freaked everybody the fuck out.
Oh, you know, another, another guy.
Just another guy plotting, you know, mass destruction.
I mean, he was going to kill a handful of people, maybe.
Uh, this guy seems a lot more serious.
Um, this is this guy, Christopher Hassen.
Uh, I'm going to, he's a Coast Guard, Coast Guard officer.
I put a link to a, um, an article about him.
He was plotting attacks at his desk.
He was apparently buying tramadol, a synthetic opiate, at his desk where he was working as a supply officer.
The US Coast Guard.
He's 49 years old and he has been at least tangentially involved in white supremacy since at least 2002.
Apparently he tried to buy a football, a dog, off of a storm front for him no later than 2002.
So he's been involved in this stuff for, you know, a decade and a half minimum.
He, at one point in 2017, had drafted a letter to what was originally announced as a, or kind of not known who it was written to, a, you know, kind of unknown Neo-Nazi in the Pacific Northwest that everybody kind of assumed was this guy Harold Covington, who we could probably do in this episode, but I've decided to save him and do him in another episode because he's big enough.
He doesn't really quite fit in the Neo-Nazis, although he started off as a Neo-Nazi.
Um, but, uh, he never sent that letter.
It was, uh, later on revealed that he actually did, uh, that his lawyer confirmed it was meant to be for this guy, Harold Covington.
And, uh, he was found with many, many guns and a whole lot of ammunition and, um, with a, uh, a list of, uh, targets and a Google history of things like, Our Supreme Court justices guarded.
And a list of targets that included all of Trump's enemies, including people in the media like Joe Scarborough, Senator Blumenthal, who was listed in the little Excel sheet as Sin Roman Jew, I believe, just to kind of give you the sense of it.
someone merely named Cortez, which we're assuming is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Poco Warren, who is clearly a Senator Elizabeth Warren, all of, all of Trump's greatest hits, all of his enemies.
And this guy was kind of actively putting together a kill list.
And by all intent, by, by all appearances, it looks like he was only, all of this was discovered when they executed a random warrant to, for his uh for his drug for his drug use for his illicit drug use and only because he was doing the like stupidest thing possible and like ordering drugs for mexico on his like federally monitored work computer
so yeah i have i have enormous faith in in the uh in the fbi and other federal law enforcement agencies to find these people don't you oh yeah yeah it's great yeah it's good to know isn't it that they're they've got their eye on the ball here yeah yeah and that you know we're not reliant on um you know accidentally things happening that are useful from the idiot war on drugs Exactly.
Exactly.
You know, clearly, clearly a better use of the resources is going after, you know, teenage people in black masks who break Starbucks windows.
Oh yeah, well they're the real Nazis.
Yeah, they're the real violent threat.
So yeah, just thought I'd mention that, just put that out there, because it is kind of, again, tangentially connected to kind of what we're doing.
And it's a big story, so if you didn't see that in your news, definitely go check that out.
And again, the major news media is much more concerned with the Jesse Smollett story than they are with this, obviously.
Which is really more important.
Well, I mean, something tells me you would have definitely heard about this.
In fact, you'd probably still be hearing about it and very little else if they'd found, you know, equivalent amounts of threatening material in the house of somebody connected with a left-wing group.
Or like an Islamic group, you know.
One guy with brown skin is caught with like one bomb.
Yeah, but there you go.
It's almost as if there's some sort of systemic problem.
Speaking of which...
This episode we're going to be talking about, well I mean, yeah, they are themselves a systemic problem growing within another systemic problem.
So Daniel, tell me about the Nazis.
Sure.
Today we are going to be covering the National Socialist Movement, and in particular I'm going to spend more time probably talking about the Traditionalist Workers' Party.
Last time I kind of went big picture and then kind of focused in on some kind of small figures.
I think this time we'll do it opposite.
We'll kind of talk about some of the individual people and then kind of get to some of the bigger picture stuff that goes on around them.
And I've got kind of two groups that are the most important to cover.
The first and kind of the easiest to discuss is the actual National Socialist Movement, or NSM.
There's a link to there.
SPLC page in the show notes.
This is a group that grew out of the old American Nazi Party.
Now, the American Nazi Party was founded in 1959 by a guy named George Lincoln Rockwell.
We will cover him in a lot more detail in a future episode.
I didn't want to have to do too much of the history, you know, kind of the deep background on this here.
He was an amazingly charismatic figure who ran this American Nazi Party for about seven years, coined the term White Power, and then he was assassinated by one of his lieutenants.
There are lots of conspiracy theories that it was like some leftist adjay or whatever, but it seems pretty well established that it was actually one of his lieutenants executed him in 1967.
A few years after that, a couple of those lieutenants ended up kind of founding this offshoot movement, kind of a, what do they call that?
Sorry, I don't have it in front of me here.
An offshoot movement?
Surely, surely that can't be true.
One of the issues with this one is that there's so many variously named groups with, you know, that I can't keep them all straight unless, I mean, I would have to kind of have it all written down in front of me and like, and I'm just kind of pulling it from various works that other people have already kind of put all this together.
And so I guarantee you I'm gonna get some detail wrong somewhere, which, as we know, will once again justify that I'm completely wrong about everything if I get the date wrong on, like, what year a group was formed or something.
Anyway, again, from the SPLC page, two of his chief lieutenants, Robert Brannan and Cliff Harrington, formed the National Socialist American Workers' Freedom Movement, now you know why I couldn't remember it, in St.
Paul, Minnesota.
A few years later, actually about 1994, leadership passed to this guy Jeff Shoup.
And who renamed the group the National Socialist Movement.
It is currently headquartered in Detroit as opposed to St.
Paul, Minnesota.
I do have their website up.
It's nsm88.com.
They formed a record label back in the day.
They're kind of connected to the skinheads, but not technically skinheads.
If you want a lot more kind of detail on Jeff Shoup, or if you just want to kind of watch him in work, You can check out this documentary that, as far as I know, is only available on Netflix right now.
It's called White Right Meeting the Enemy.
And this is a documentary by a young Muslim woman who went and met with a bunch of these guys, including Shoop.
She met with Jared Taylor.
She met with Richard Spencer.
In fact, it's in that documentary that you can watch him drink some of that mediocre bourbon, so definitely check that out if you're so inclined.
But you can get to meet Jeff Shoup.
It's very clear his family is not too fond of the work he's doing, but he kind of took over this organization when he was like 21 years old.
And kind of had, you know, a lot of sources will call it the kind of largest organized white supremacist, white nationalist organization in the United States in terms of they have a lot of chapters in a bunch of states.
And despite the fact that the kind of like raw numbers are small, they're bigger than any other kind of single group.
And so the NSM, these are straight up Nazis that devolve directly from, you know, old school American Nazis.
Which have, you know, deep connections to even like the, uh, the, uh, you know, circa World War II era, you know, German-American Bund and some of those other, um, you know, Nazi organizations.
This is a, uh, pretty, pretty old organization that kind of dates back, um, you know, that has sort of, sort of, you know, again, that sort of authentic roots concept as opposed to something, um, that was sort of born on the internet in, you know, 2014 or whatever.
This is, this is, this is, this has some legs on it that says, uh, You know, people actually marching in the streets who have been marching in the streets for decades.
That said, it is largely seen by people who observe it from the outside as basically a federal honeypot.
A bunch of people kind of walking around in like straight up Nazi gear.
Lots of federal informants, you get lots of arrests in these things, and it's kind of a little bit of a joke, at least in terms of, you know, having any kind of real political power.
That said, they are kind of well known to be shock troops, and a bunch of these guys were...
We're at Unite the Right and they were doing a lot of, you know, kind of in-person work with their fists, if you know what I'm saying there.
Currently, and this will just kind of give you the joke, you know, if you're at all interested here, The biggest piece of news from a couple of weeks ago is that there is a black civil rights advocate who is taking control of the NSM as of literally two weeks ago.
Oh yes, I heard about that.
So this is the man who has sort of taken over the NSM.
His incorporation papers filed in Michigan and legal documents in a federal court case list.
54 year old James Hart Stern in Moreno Valley, California as president slash director of the NSM.
Stern had previously been incarcerated.
He served time.
He actually shared a cell with one of the men who was convicted of killing the three civil rights workers in Neshoba County, Mississippi during the events that turned into the Mississippi Burning film.
And so he has created this group called Racial Reconciliation Outreach Ministries, and it's meant to sort of try to reach out to overt neo-Nazis and try to make common cause or try to find some way of getting along, which is sort of a…
Yeah, it's a complicated feeling right so yeah previously in I think 2017 this guy this civil rights attorney or the civil rights lawyer had Convinced the NSM to stop using the swastika Stern posted on his blog on February 12th 2017 that he helped the NSM drop the Nazi swastika from its logo and replace it with an odal rune a symbol often co-opted by white supremacist organizations and so you can kind of Google odal rune and you see this is the symbol that they're now using and all the NSM stuff
Um, so he has had kind of, um, worked with him in the past and they have, you know, kind of agreed to, you know, some, some concessions.
I mean, there is some kind of dialogue going on, but apparently, um, my, my, from everything that I can see, it looks like he is, uh, that, uh, Jeff Shoup, the, uh, the leader of the NSM and the, the organization's basically, uh, using this black man as sort of the front man who's going to, um, You know, give them sympathy in terms of their kind of ongoing legal actions with respect to what was going on and, you know, at the right and in Charlottesville.
So it looks like this very brazen Craven move.
But, you know, we'll kind of see how that goes out.
It was one of those things where I think, you know, it kind of got tweeted out and just about everybody went, what the fuck is this?
And then once you kind of look into the details, it's like, oh, no, I kind of understand what's going on here.
So, yeah, that's what's going on with the NSM these days.
Again, they are in Detroit.
That's just a couple hours from where I'm sitting right now.
And they do have connections to some skid head groups and Yeah, that's that's the NSM.
They're kind of a nothing movement.
Um, they definitely don't consider themselves alt-right They don't really kind of do I think they do some some radio here and there but they're mostly on this like really old-school website without a whole lot of online presence They've got a record label that kind of brings in some money, and yeah, that's kind of the NSM.
If you do want to check out that documentary, that's a good way to kind of get a hold of Jeff Shoup, and I kind of get a sense of who he is.
You can also check out the book by Vegas Tinold, Everything You Love Will Burn.
And we will get much more deeply into this book as we discuss kind of the other major figure who is profiled in that book, and that is Matthew Heimbach.
And that's really what I kind of wanted to talk about today, is Matt Heimbach and sort of his connections to the NSM, to the National Socialist Movement, because I think Heimbach is someone that people are much more familiar with.
That sounds like the organisation you've just described sounds, I'm sure it's very different because the context is different, but it sounds not a million miles away from sort of neo-Nazi groups we have in Britain, actually.
It sounds like the same sort of thing to sort of, you know, swastika flying skinhead types that we in Britain are fairly familiar with.
Yeah, it's very close to that.
They are not technically... there's a lot of kind of wink and nudge about whether they're...
Sort of overtly aligned with the Hammer Skins.
The Hammer Skins are the largest, you know, neo-Nazi white power street gang.
These are the kind of canonical skinheads, and that culture kind of came over from your country, came over to my country, and then what did we do?
We made it worse.
That's what all these things, but yeah, we'll I'll kind of get into that a little bit more again I've got I've got to kind of another place to put them on so they are kind of a.
Vaguely connected to the hammer skins and there is some kind of You know disavowal on both sides because the hammer skins are a lot more kind of directly You know kind of overtly violent where you know, they really will just kind of go up and beat up Puerto Ricans and black people and etc Whereas the NSM kind of sees themselves as a little bit more of a kind of vanguardist political movement but really, you know, one of the things you realize, you know is that I
All of these categories are fungible to a certain degree and that the more you try to delineate them particularly when you can after talking about.
Um, you know, decades of time, you know, uh, you know, the, the names of organizations change, the kind of overstated goals change, but the overall direction they're all pushing in doesn't really, and so, uh, it, it's, uh, it's difficult to kind of keep track of, you know, all the details sometimes, but, but ultimately, um, they kind of open, they, they disavow each other, but they also kind of work along the same, you know, uh, tracks, and a lot of people who are kind of former Hammerskins join the NSM and vice versa, so.
And that's just kind of the reality of that.
It's worth kind of going into the TWP.
That's the Traditionalist Workers' Party.
Traditionalist Workers' Party, yes.
So I'm going to ask you, just to kind of give myself a little bit of a chance to breathe here.
There's probably one thing that you know about the TWP above all else, and probably one thing that pretty much everyone here listening to this knows about the TWP above all else, and I'm wondering what you think of when you think of them.
Well, I mean, apart from their logo, which is a sort of, actually, I hate to say it, rather attractive sort of cogwheel design, I think of Matt Heimbach, who is a, shall we say, a stout gentleman with a beard.
Who, as far as I remember, didn't he have an affair with his stepmother or something like that?
Let me pull this up here.
This got the clever online metonym, The Knight of Wrong Wives.
That's brilliant.
Whoever came up with that deserves all the applause.
They won the internet that day.
They won the internet that day and unfortunately I couldn't find the original tweet.
Um, but it is, it is a delicious name, The Night of Wrong Lives.
Um, so, you're referring to, uh, on the, on the alt-right, they call it The Day the Box Broke.
Um, so for reasons that will become clear, I'm gonna read a little bit from this piece from The Daily Beast.
Um, this is by a, uh, a journalist named Kelly Wheel, who is, uh, really kind of up on this stuff, who is, who is, who is a good person, definitely worth it.
Um, I have no, uh, connection to Kelly Wheel at all, but, um, You know, I read her stuff and she knows what she's talking about.
So, she says, the Traditionalist Worker Party gained national attention after its involvement at the Daily Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia last August.
Its leader, Matthew Heimbach, was arrested Tuesday for allegedly assaulting his wife and his spokesman after Heimbach was caught cheating on his wife with the spokesman's wife.
David Matt Parrott was the party spokesperson until Tuesday when he quit in a statement to the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Parrott told the Daily Beast the incident might be the end for the white nationalist group.
Aside, it was.
The TWP ended and most of the followers ended up basically just moving off into the League of the South, which we kind of covered a little bit last week.
Parrott says people have lost faith in the party on every level.
Patrick scrapped the TWP's website after Quentin McCloskey believes the party be dead, he said.
The implosion began at a TWP compound in Pauley, Indiana, where Parrott's wife, Jessica, who was allegedly having an affair with Heimbach, who was married to Parrott's stepdaughter from a previous marriage.
So Matt Parrott is an older guy.
He's been involved in like white nationalist stuff for forever.
His stepwife, right, was having an affair with Matt Heimbach, and Matt Heimbach was already married to Parrot's stepdaughter from a previous marriage.
So there's no blood relation here, right?
But Heimbach is married to Matt Parrot's stepdaughter, and then he's sleeping with Parrot's wife on the side.
This becomes a lot more clear when you understand that all these people live in a compound.
They call it a compound, but it's really like four trailers that have been moved into a square or something.
It's this very low-key kind of thing.
But when you realize that all these people live in a group of 10 other people or something, it becomes a lot more clear.
To the degree that people sleep with the people around them, if they're going to have an affair, you don't really go too far off.
It sort of makes a lot more sense.
So I'll read this a little bit more because this is delicious.
Heimbach and Jessica told Perrett that they'd ended the relationship.
Perrett and Heimbach's wife were skeptical.
They agreed to set up Heimbach and Jessica in a trailer on Perrett's property to catch them having sex.
So more soap opera drama here.
Yeah, that sounds all very healthy.
Perrett stood on a box outside the trailer and watched Heimbach and Jessica have sex inside, according to a police report.
So Matt Parrott is watching his stepdaughter have sex with her husband.
Again, that sounds perfectly normal and healthy.
I don't know what you're talking about.
When the box broke under Parrot's weight, he entered the trailer to confront them.
So he's standing at a cardboard box, the box breaks, and he runs into the trailer.
Apparently he made enough noise that he kind of, you know.
Heimbach allegedly choked him and chased him into a house where Parrot threw a chair at him.
Heimbach hit back, choking him into unconsciousness according to the police report.
Parrot fled to a Walmart near his home and called police around 1am Tuesday morning.
So, and then there's more, like, apparently he was yelling at his wife and all kinds of other stuff.
So, just to put a little pin in this, now, this marks the official end of the Traditionalist Workers' Party, so we're kind of doing this in backwards, but it's, yeah, the TWP ends after this.
Yeah, apparently there was some like kind of a conspiracy about like where the membership roles went.
One of the things that was revealed is that the TWP was really good at sort of pretending that they had this kind of like massive, you know, um presence that they had a whole bunch of members it you know that's that's really interesting because that's something the original nazis used to do when they started issuing membership cards they started at like uh um i think the first card issued was 500 or something so right yeah you know people had membership cards that were 502 503 and they were actually the second and third members
No, no, I don't know if they did anything quite like that, but there was definitely a sense of you know They kind of knew how to use media to sort of make it look like they had a bigger crowd than they actually had The biggest estimates were that there were maybe a couple of hundred people in this in this movement the And it ends up being more like 35 or 40.
It was a really, really small group, and yet it was able to get national headlines because Heimbach was really good at it, and we'll kind of get into that here in a minute.
But I did want to just kind of mention, so the TWP website no longer exists, but it is on the archive, and I do have a link to the archive link there.
And from the 25 points of National Socialism that were supposedly the This is how we're going to set up things in our ethnostate.
Anyone trafficking in hard drugs, those who abuse children or women or the elderly, traitors and subversives will, like all criminals, face a fair and open trial and, if convicted, face a swift death penalty by firing squad.
Matt?
I think abusing the women and a traitor and a subversive.
I think that definitely all fits for Matt Heimbach there.
But of course, he is not going to be subjected to a firing squad, at least not for that, because we live in a much more forgiving multicultural society.
Well, it's something approaching a democracy, you know.
Yes, yes, definitely.
So that's something that definitely kind of gets, you know, Kind of got played out a little bit on Twitter after this event as well.
It's like, oh, what do you think your punishment should be there, Matt?
He did.
He did.
We always know we can come back to Cantwell whenever.
He did appear on Cantwell's show.
I've got a link to that in the show notes as well.
So you can go and watch.
Everything tracks back to Christopher Cantwell, doesn't it?
One of the...
One of the advantages of already doing Cantwell is now I can just talk about whenever someone appears on Cantwell, you can just kind of, you know, I can just kind of link back to it and you can go, now all the things you already know about Cantwell, now imagine these two getting together and having a conversation.
Yeah.
Heimbach had appeared on the Radical Agenda at least once or twice before this, but he did.
So, based on the results of this...
God, there's so much story here.
I'm telling it out of order.
So he did appear on the Radical Agenda, and he claimed that he had been battling alcoholism, which I completely believe and completely understand.
It doesn't quite justify fucking your buddy's wife there, but you know.
In itself, it's something human.
And he was apparently trying to kind of better himself and to rejoin the movement.
This was during a brief... Those two things are mutually incompatible.
Right.
Bettering himself would be not... Pick one.
Yeah, exactly.
But I put better himself in quotes there, but this was during the brief period where Heimbach had been hired by the National Socialist Movement to be their communication-slash-outreach director.
What?
PR for the Nazis?
PR for the Nazis, because there's one thing Heimbach is actually good at, it's talking to journalists.
He got unceremoniously fired from that position less than two months after he took it.
Nobody knows quite why.
And he got fired after Cantwell had him on his show.
Cantwell would definitely have asked him about it.
That's one of the good things about Cantwell.
He will actually ask the question that's on everybody's mind.
He's a better journalist than Dave Rubin then.
I mean, that is a low fucking bar, man.
I mean, if Kentwood were not a vile, misogynist, racist, transphobe, drug addict, he might actually be kind of a decent journalist because he just doesn't give a fuck and he actually will go there and challenge people on their bullshit.
It's just that all of his noxious ideology and...
Nonsense just Gets in the way of all that, you know, some of these guys do have some talent.
I can't you know I'm gonna give them that I think I think you know denying that Does get in the way of us understanding these these guys sometimes but yeah, so haven't haven't seen much from Traditionalist Workers Party since then or I will anything from the TWP but a Heimbach since he left the NSM I have seen nothing from him Heimbach has been involved in this stuff for years.
I mean he's, even now, I think he's only like 28 or something like that?
28 or 29?
He's been involved in this stuff since he was a teenager.
I mean he was literally attending clan meetings when he was 17 years old.
So he hasn't gone away.
He will come back at some point, but I haven't seen him kind of pop up anywhere.
Matt Parrott is also, from what I understand, kind of He's still kind of posting on Gab, but he's really not kind of engaged in a lot of the kind of organizational stuff.
I don't really see him on podcasts and stuff.
The other kind of big person involved in the TWP is this guy Tony Hovater, and I might as well go ahead and cover this while we're at it.
Tony Hovater does appear on podcasts.
He is kind of kind of showing up.
I don't know what his kind of organizational level stuff is, but he's the one who was living in Ohio who was profiled in this very kind of famous New York Times piece which was called A Voice of Hate in America's Heartland.
This is the one where the Nazi makes pasta and has Mein Kampf on his bookshelf, etc.
That's that guy.
Yes, I remember that.
If you were on Twitter when that happened and you were kind of following this stuff, then that piece got a lot of attention.
It got a lot of well-deserved scorn, but I think it got also a lot of not-deserved scorn, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
I have a lot of sympathy with the people who were angry about it, but I have to say that I personally found it useful, reading it.
Sure.
Um and I mean I think it does I mean I think the challenge is you know like when you're when you're trying to write these things and so this is kind of considered very bad journalism about the about the far right about white nationalism and um yeah we can kind of use it sorry go ahead I was just gonna say it wasn't good let's say I think it did the thing it was trying to do, which was to profile this guy.
It kind of did it accidentally, I think.
I think there's always a challenge, and it's certainly one that as someone trying to study these guys and talk about them, even just kind of tweeting about them, not to an audience the size of the New York Times.
The challenge of how do you understand these people's humanity and understand the monstrosity at the same time?
This, you know, a kind of a daily reporter like that he had, you know, two days with this guy to kind of like put together a piece on he interviewed some people he just kind of.
I think there was this assumption that, well, everybody's gonna know this guy's a fucking Nazi.
Like, I'm telling you he's got Mein Kampf on his bookshelf.
I don't necessarily have to push that that hard, and I think that that's kind of the challenge of that, is that... And then once you put that to, like, a New York Times audience, to an audience that size, it does look like you're kind of coddling him.
But one of the interesting things is that the reason that it was Hovater instead of Heimbach, who was actually profiled for that, is that, you know, essentially the New York Times reached out to the TWP and asked to do a profile.
And like Heimbach was going to show up and do it.
And I said, well, no, but we already kind of know who you are.
And we're looking for somebody who's like a little bit more just kind of like in the movement, who's like kind of in your group, but not like, you know, one of your big guys.
Well, they gave him Hovater, kind of pretending that Hovater was just sort of a just a run of the mill guy in the party.
But it turns out Hovater is essentially one of the co-founders.
He either co-founded or he showed up like a month later or something.
Like, he's very much kind of a top-end guy who had done the podcast and everything with Heimbach.
There's absolutely no question that, like, he was a top-level guy, but they sort of pretended that he wasn't in order to kind of get Better coverage more sympathetic coverage.
Yeah, but if you read the piece, it's very clear that the The author of the piece understands that you know, he figures out very quickly.
This is not just some regular guy So it is it is clear It's clearly stated in the piece that that hovader is kind of one of the co-founders which I think is interesting that they thought they were getting one over on him and they actually kind of weren't but anyway, that's a Complicated and difficult piece of, at best, so-so journalism on this stuff.
As long as we're on the topic, I would like to mention a very good piece of journalism on this same group, and it is kind of directly connected to Heimbach.
So this one is called The Neo-Nazi Has No Clothes in Search of Matt Heimbach's Bogus White Ethnostate.
And it is by a young reporter named Caitlin Dixon.
There is both an article here and about a 10-minute video.
I highly recommend both so you can you can kind of watch around.
Both Hovader and Heimbach are in this video.
And so one of the things like you mentioned that you really like their logo.
Their logo involves a A cogwheel and a pitchfork.
They ground their ideology in a kind of overt national socialism with a little bit more emphasis on the socialism, with a little more of the emphasis on kind of a rule by the workers, but just a rule by white workers and, you know, sort of a kind of overtly – it's not quite strasserite, but it definitely is, you know, kind of like a left-leaning racism, right?
Much more so than a lot of the other figures on the kind of more I don't know, traditional alt-right who tend to be kind of more libertarian-ish.
Heimbach never, never kind of went through that phase.
He was always kind of a pro-union, pro-workers, but in an explicitly kind of white supremacist context.
So, one of the things that, because Heimbach actually is, you know, like fairly knowledgeable, or at least pretends to, is, you know, kind of the importance of on-the-ground organizing of workers.
And so one of the things that he does is, you know, he says, we're going to open up like welding schools where we're going to get, you know, young white people who have issues getting jobs are going to train them in welding.
And then you can go off and that's a trade where you can go and actually like ply that trade.
And, you know, we can, we can help to put food on people's tables and we can help to materially help the people who are suffering in rural Appalachia.
Great plan.
Really great plan there, Matt.
Unfortunately, it was all fucking bullshit.
You amaze me.
Because when a journalist went around and said, can I actually watch you knock on doors?
Can we actually see this and verify that it's happening?
Can we talk to some of the people that you have?
No, I remember this now.
I think I did watch the video you're talking about.
just see it so that we can actually document that and put it out there and say, yeah, you're actually doing this.
They strung her along, they kept changing the meeting location.
She followed them for two whole days and she never got to see a single person who had gone through a welding program or anything.
- Yeah, I remember this now.
I think I did watch the video you're talking about. - Yeah.
Both the video and the written piece are very good and some of the best reporting that I've seen on these guys.
And so I'm just gonna, again, the link is in the show notes.
Please go check that out.
It's very well done, and it really does just kind of, it punctures the bubble of like, there is this fear, at least I've kind of seen this from some leftist anti-fascists and people, that this sort of merger of
An actual kind of left idealism in terms of like kind of reaching out to a dispossessed working class alongside this sort of nativist, you know, ideas about immigration and these nativist ideas about who belongs in the community, etc.
It could be a really powerful message to, you know, some, you know, some some Bernie supporters, you know, some some misguided people to people who are looking for some kind of you know, left answer, but are also kind of concerned about the, you know, kind of the browning of America or whatever, which I think is complete horseshit, obviously.
The working class is global and multi-ethnic and multi-gendered and all that.
But there is this, there is a lot of kind of hand-wringing over that kind of fear.
And Heimbach was kind of the, always the kind of person number one in terms of people worrying about that.
And ultimately, when you see that he's ultimately what he's doing is he's doing a PR move and he's not actually organizing people in any kind of realistic way.
It becomes clear that no high block is not really someone that we need to be too concerned about at least on that regard.
So yeah, go check that out.
Yeah, it sounds good.
No, I mean, it's that's a really good point.
You know, it's almost as if the the left wing rhetoric used by fascists is always insincere and cynical.
Remember when Donald Trump was supposed to put together this giant infrastructure plan to rebuild America?
That's right, yeah.
The jobs are coming back, folks.
So many jobs.
Big jobs.
The best jobs.
It's almost as if these far-right groups realize the popularity of left-wing activism and the need for material improvement in people's lives.
Since they can't actually execute that, they just pretend.
It's almost like that.
Yeah, you'd have to be very cynical to think that.
Yeah, no, that's silly.
Okay, so we've talked a bit about how the whole thing, the state it's in now.
Perhaps we can go back in time a bit and talk about where it comes from.
Sure.
One of the things that, so I mentioned this book, Everything You Love Will Burn.
This book actually is one of those books that I both highly recommend and have Deep fundamental problems with and I definitely do recommend that people read it.
It's a very good book.
It is by Vegas 10 old who is a I believe he's I know he's Scandinavian.
I forget which country is fun, but he is a he did actually embed himself in far-right groups in the United States for about five years and he did in bed with Jeff Shoup who we mentioned earlier from the National Socialist Movement.
He went to a bunch of clan meetings.
He actually
Watch some some cross burnings and I got some a lot of like practical advice on like how you actually make a cross burn So if you are interested in and kind of what it's like to attend a clan rally in you know 2012 or whatever That's highly recommended and the other major figure and really the major figure of the book is Matt Heimbach and he was following Matt Heimbach around when Heimbach was was literally nobody and he went and did some some really nice on the ground
journalism, following Matt around, and he decided it was time to write the book on election night 2016.
And so he sits around drinking with these guys, or at least kind of hanging out with these guys while they drank.
I think he did have some beers with them.
Watching the returns come in, and then he kind of leaves the trailer and kind of walks to his car, and he's kind of slightly half in the bag.
I hope he's exaggerating because it sounds like he's driving drunk at a certain point.
But he gets home, and he falls asleep, and then he kind of wakes up to a text message.
And this is a text message from Heimbach, and I'm going to read it to you.
Wisconsin goes to Trump!
Everything you love will burn!
LOL, and then a smiley face.
From that, the book gets its title.
Yeah.
I can see how that might make an impression on you.
Definitely.
So he did embed with Heimbach for a number of years, or at least he kind of hung out with him for a while.
One of the things that he does is he interviews some of Matt's old teachers.
And I've got a little bit from Everything You Love Will Burn here that I'm going to read, because I think it feels very true to Matt, but it also feels very true of the movement in general.
And so he says, another of Matthew's teachers, Dr. Kurt Borkman, one of the only conservative professors at Montgomery and a devout Lutheran, remembers Matthew as an intellectual arsonist, seemingly more interested in provoking than convincing others.
Both Thompson and Borkman regarded Matthew as smart or clever, but neither was ever sure he was intelligent.
Dr. Thompson said he was smart because he could recite facts, but perhaps not intelligent because he never seemed to give the facts his own interpretation.
Dr. Bortman saw him as someone who was clearly clever, but wondered how he wasn't intelligent enough to see through the blatant pseudoscience behind the paleoconservative arguments.
You see this kind of over and over again is that these guys, you know, when they do go to college and, you know, Heimbach is somebody who attended at first Montgomery and then moves on to Towson University, which is a larger school and I believe in Indiana.
And he ends up kind of doing student activism there.
He forms these various groups.
He kind of first joins a couple of groups and then ends up kind of forming a group that becomes the Traditionalist Workers Party.
But you see this a lot with these guys.
You know, when they do go to college, they usually don't graduate.
And they do have this kind of feeling of, you know, they're clever.
They're kind of smart guys.
They've got the ability to kind of do the reading and parrot it back and sort of like parrot talking points.
But they tend to not have a You know, a detailed knowledge, any kind of synthetic ability.
Rarely do they have any kind of ability to kind of think for themselves and to actually, you know, do any kind of real synthetic work in a kind of real.
Constructive work.
And they see their kind of failures in this regard and their kind of resistance to it as more a sense of, you know, that their intelligence, that their natural kind of superiority in some ways is being subverted by this, you know, system that's, you know, left-leaning or multicultural or Marxist, cultural Marxist or whatever.
And that it's, you know, kind of actively working to subvert like what is just kind of naturally real and true.
And so they just kind of see it as a whole bunch of bullshit and you know just kind of move on.
This is also why so many of these guys end up in.
Engineering programs and programs that don't involve you to actually have to do kind of a really difficult work thinking about things like sociology and politics and history, etc.
Engineering is difficult.
I can't do engineering and I respect people who can, but I know what you mean.
They want to be doing a certain kind of political thinking and they're finding it beyond them.
Decided like a like a stroppy teenager to say, you know, I don't immediately understand this.
So obviously, there's nothing to understand, really.
And I'm being I'm being unfairly told that I've failed.
Whereas in fact, I'm actually I'm actually smarter than the people failing me because I know that it's all a bunch of crap.
Exactly.
And, you know, it really is like the just the bright young man, the bright young white boy who's been very privileged and doesn't realize how privileged he is and thinks that, you know, just being clever is enough to kind of get through everything.
And, you know, they take a couple of like 100 level English classes or history classes, and they, you know, are able to kind of bullshit through a couple of papers and think, well, I was able to get an A, so clearly everything is, you know, these whole fields are complete horseshit because I didn't I barely had to do any work at all.
I do just want to tell them, you took the equivalent of a Physics for Poets class, and that's where you are.
Real philosophy is much, much more difficult than that.
I can't do it, and I have a degree in Chemistry, I minored in Math.
I am one of these guys, and I understand, no, this stuff is way, way beyond us, you guys.
This is it.
The ability to create this stuff for yourself.
You know, it's it's it's not widely distributed that ability.
You know, I actually my degree at university was in English and philosophy.
I have yet to write any novels.
I have yet to come up with any original philosophical ideas because, you know, very few people can actually do that sort of thing.
It's at some point you you know if you're grown up you you say to yourself well you know i'm i'm not the next.
I'm not the next schopenhauer or whatever all the next jones dickens you know what that's fine i'll live.
Pulling in just just the idea that i even beyond kind of being the next schopenhauer whatever is you know it's it's not even that it's just the idea that you know these disciplines are real and they have real results they have real.
Subject matter and just because you were kind of a clever boy who you know kind of was given a good grade for doing bullshit In an intro level class doesn't mean that everyone else is doing the same thing But they think that you know there is this sort of you know if it doesn't have equations in it Then it's definitely you know not like you know learn to code is like this this it's a whole thing and then we're a little far from from Heimbach himself But it's such a like knowing
Just such an accurate statement that i just wanted to highlight here.
Yeah we touched on this before it's the old you know they feel entitled to be right thing and it does come from that experience of being.
You know the boy who was at the top of the class in junior school you know and it doesn't translate into always being top of the class absolutely so.
Just a little bit of Matt Heimbach's history here, just to kind of give you more context for him.
So he does start off in college.
He establishes this thing called the Traditionalist Youth Network in 2013.
It was established by Heimbach and Matt Parrott, who, you know, ends up being his stepfather or whatever.
Heimbach had been involved in this stuff since 2011 when he had, you know, kind of been doing student politics at Towson University.
There's some indication that Heimbach was, you know, kind of groomed by some of the local, like, the young Republican clubs or whatever.
I, you know, I kind of see people talk about that.
I haven't seen really good documentation on that, so I wouldn't lean too hard into it, but clearly he has At some point he gained the kind of knowledge of sort of how to manipulate media, much more so than these other guys do in ways of sort of being able to kind of present himself well and maybe that just comes from kind of doing the student organizing and kind of being in these university classes.
But he does feel he does have a little bit of that sort of like coached right-wing youth guy that we've Kind of talked about in a couple of places in the past these These guys who sort of like join these like young Republican clubs and they kind of learn Like how to talk to media and kind of how to gland head glad hand donors and that sort of thing He definitely has a little bit of that sort of stuff going on.
So I don't know Kind of where that went, but I can imagine that his kind of work in this in the university and kind of working with this these kind of other kind of young right wing guys.
Um, I can imagine he got a lot of his knowledge from that point.
Um, he was definitely, um, further to the right than most of these other guys were, at least in terms of, you know, kind of having these like explicitly racist views.
Um, but then he also had these, these, you know, quite left, I mean, radically left-wing views in terms of like what the Republican Party in 2011 would have been at, uh, in terms of the, uh, you know, in terms of actually supporting unions and workers' rights and that sort of thing.
So, um, he was definitely kind of seen as an odd duck.
He does form this thing called the White Student Union on campus in 2011.
And he's actually interviewed by, there's a Vice documentary from 2013, which I put in the show notes, which you can watch.
And it's got, you know, like just graduated from college or, you know, late in his college career, Matthew Heimbach, creating this organization, which was like combating black crime on the Towson University campus.
So, yeah, none of this ever changes, right?
No.
So he graduates and that becomes the traditionalist youth network.
And then eventually that's going to turn into the traditionalist workers party as, you know, he gets a little bit further away from his university career.
According to Wikipedia, the group eventually became a chapter of the American third position, which was later known as the American Freedom Party, which I kind of put in the show notes last week and then never really covered.
But we've got some other places to kind of come back to that a little bit later.
But this is a fringe, like 19th party of two, you know, kind of far right party.
You know, it's one of those kind of perpetual also rants where they put up a candidate.
He's on the he's on the ballot in four states and they get approximately nowhere.
But it was a kind of a way to kind of gather money and kind of get signatures and get kind of people's address.
So we don't organize.
these far right groups and uh james edwards was on the uh i think he may even still be on the board and uh kevin mcdonald who i know i keep mentioning him we will do him soon i promise uh kevin mcdonald is one of the i believe one of the founding members of that so um all of this stuff you know i mentioned all that as a way of sort of saying like you know this is a tiny community of people who kind of all kind of working together and doing stuff so uh worth uh worth mentioning so you could almost cause it incestuous almost
and maybe one of them is going to sleep with the other and then they're going to fall through a box and then that's how that's how it's all going to end so So, Traditionalist Workers' Party is formed sometime after 2013.
It is kind of immediately recognized by the SPLC.
Heimbach does a bunch of speeches.
He grows a beard, actually, in his younger days.
If you see him, he is beardless in his college years.
And, in fact, there is a video with literally a few hundred views.
If half of our viewing audience goes, or half of our listening audience goes and watches this video, you're going to double its view count, so just be aware of that.
Not really double, but you know what I mean, you know We're gonna send a lot of traffic its way because there's a link to it, but it does only have a few hundred views But it is a Matt Heimbach speaking at one of these American Freedom Party I might have even been the third position at that point.
I can't remember like what the dates were but Back in 2013.
He is again an engaging young speaker.
He is one of these kind of like right-wing guys being groomed into kind of bigger positions in the party, but um The thing about everything you love will burn in what's really interesting about it is that it does kind of follow Heimbach as he is moving in this fringe far right space outside of the kind of overtly politicized space and he is trying to organize.
I understand.
I can't remember all of them all the time.
far-right groups into some kind of larger super organization.
And the thing that he ends up doing is he founds this thing called the Nationalist Front.
Again, all of these names are very similar.
Please.
I understand.
I can't remember all of them all the time.
I have to have notes in front of me in order to keep it all straight myself.
But he forms this thing called the Nationalist Front, or NF.
The Nationalist Front is designed explicitly to be an umbrella group, kind of a loose association, an affiliation of four different far-right groups with sort of the
Various aims that would then kind of all kind of work together and do rallies together like kind of each flying their own banner but under the kind of larger umbrella of the Nationalist Front and the four organizations were the Traditionalist Workers Party, Vanguard America, Vanguard America is the group that held the shield that James Alex Field was holding before he did the Karcher attack in Charlottesville that day and
The League of the South, who we mentioned last week, who withdrew from the nationalist front after they started collapsing.
And in response to their legal issues around the Unite the Right rally.
You see why we did the Unite the Right rally already?
Yeah.
And then the fourth group is the actual NSM, the National Socialist Movement.
So these four groups all kind of working together under one banner.
And then you've got to keep in mind that the League of the South has multiple chapters all over the place with kind of semi-autonomous organization.
Ditto the NSM.
They've got a whole bunch of chapters that are kind of vaguely all aligned, but kind of not.
Vanguard America is a lot more kind of one big thing, but it's like a fringe of a fringe, a splinter of the National Vanguard, which was kind of one of the very old school groups, which again, we can kind of cover in more detail when we do the kind of the more of the deeper history of white nationalism.
So that's the idea.
And Heimbach looks like he's actually doing a pretty good job of kind of keeping these groups together.
He does reach out to groups like the Hammer Skins and it is described as like he went out to like a Hammer Skins like metal club at one point and he was trying to recruit those guys but he's also like trying to do politics and they're really just interested in like beating up brown people on the streets and so he is kind of trying to kind of get members he is trying to get kind of alliance with the Hammer Skins but also kind of fails at that and then just kind of well I didn't want them anyway and
There was a lot of discussion of the frustrations and the difficulties that he runs through, and I want to be clear that Tenold is a very good journalist in terms of covering this, and he gives information that if you are at all interested in Heimbach, you absolutely need to read this book.
That said, he definitely falls for Heimbach's charm a lot more than I think he should.
He has a rather jaundiced view towards anti-fascists.
Which I'm gonna kind of give him a little bit of a pass on just because it does seem like you know if you're embedded with the NSM for long enough you're gonna get attacked by them and maybe he's just kind of got a little bit of like you know difficulty there but also you're fucking marching with with Nazis and maybe you should understand that um you know I it's it's difficult to know exactly where to where to uh how to feel about that but um I do want to read
One more little, one little segment from this just to kind of give you a sense of just how in the, in the bag he was on this.
So essentially, at one point, Heimbach asks Tenold, so why have you never asked me about the Holocaust?
And at this point, he's been following that around for, you know, a couple of years, at least like three or four years.
And he has interacted with many neo-Nazis, and he is aware that neo-Nazis do not think the Holocaust happened.
And yet he's never asked Heimbach about it.
And so Heimbach asks him, so why have you never asked me?
And this is from the book, he says.
I'm not sure why I haven't asked you about the Holocaust, Matt, I said.
I suppose I always planned on getting around to it, but now is as good a time as any.
I put down my fork and took a sip of ice water.
So how can you defend National Socialism when it was behind the murder of 6.6 million innocents?
With that, everything fell back into place again.
It was jarring to listen to Matthew explain the mathematical impossibility of pre-meeting millions of Jews, the lack of historical witnesses to the Holocaust, the impracticality of using Cyclone B, and the benefits that the international jury had seen in perpetuating the lie of the Holocaust.
These were all boilerplate Holocaust-denying arguments that had been debunked ad nauseum, yet they still proved irresistible to those who wanted to give a veneer of pseudoscience to their anti-Semitism.
They were feats of faux intellectual acrobatics, non-factual contortions designed to force a square peg into a round hole, and Matthew's refusal to acknowledge the mountain of historical evidence of the slaughter of a people reminded me that however friendly or rational he seemed, especially compared to other white nationalists, he still believed and promoted the same racist ideas.
It's an old is definitely, um, acknowledging his own kind of difficulties with this concept here.
But I think in terms of kind of reading, particularly kind of the last third of the book or so, I think he's much more forgiving of high bucket is much more kind of willing to let high box charm.
Kind of take him away.
He doesn't see Heimbach for what he is, which is a like viciously awful Nazi because he's just kind of charmed by him by his friendliness and again, he does kind of highlight that in terms of his his own kind of lead up to that passage and But but I think you know when you when you suddenly when you read at the end when he says of basically the book ends in Charlottesville at the right Uh, when you read, you know, kind of the descriptions of like, Heimbach was now someone I didn't recognize.
He had, uh, he was now, you know, engaging in street violence, etc.
And it's like, no!
Heimbach was always this person.
You dick!
Um, and... He was that guy all along.
You just fell for it.
Exactly.
And, and I think there's a little bit of an unwillingness to sort of see that clearly in the, in the book.
Um, and again, I have enormous respect for this book.
I have enormous respect for the journalists.
Uh, but, um, I highly recommend the book, just be aware that that's kind of an issue with it overall.
Read it critically, you know, so as you're, you know, as you're reading the author, kind of look at the author as well, you know, and look at how easy it is to get, you know, for even people who are there specifically because, you know, they want to understand Nazis.
You know, it's still there's still a there's still a way in which he's being kind of sucked in, even with all the defenses up, it's still happening.
And and that's something and just just to be clear on this, that's something that I think about very often in terms of my own understanding of these guys.
So I do want to highlight that for myself.
Yeah, absolutely, because you need to have a certain ability to listen to and look at these people as human beings, otherwise you're not going to understand them properly.
The trouble is that you fall into the trap of too much empathy, I suppose, and it allows you to You know, make the sort of allow... because we all do this, don't we?
We make allowances for the people around us, you know, when somebody behaves badly.
Because that's just life.
You have to do that.
But in situations like this, no, you can't.
You can't make allowances.
You have to be able to see people clearly.
And you had to be able to see that even though he's kind of a nice guy to you, even though he's kind of pleasant to talk to or whatever, even if you've driven cross-country with him and sang along with the radio, that he's nice to you because you're giving him press and you're covering him and it's ultimately...
You know, I don't doubt that Heimbach had, you know, kind of fond feelings for Tinold there.
I don't have any doubt of that in terms of, you know, just kind of knowing Heimbach as well as I do even just from listening to him talk.
But also, you know, you have to understand that, you know, this is someone with media savvy who knows what the fuck he's doing.
And this is also the guy who was in the audience at a Trump rally and at Trump's, you know, bellowed instigation assaulted a woman.
Yeah, a young African American woman.
Yeah, there's a link to that in the show notes as well.
I was actually just about to go there.
It is in fact because of So he was arrested for this.
He ends up basically getting a suspended sentence, but he gets probation for, I think, two years after this event, where it's like, you know, don't go and do anything violent, don't go get in any more trouble.
After the Night of Wronged Wives, he is forced to serve the remainder of his sentence.
So he ends up serving another like 100 days or something like that in jail over this first time that he assaulted someone in 2016.
And this is pretty clearly long before the book was written.
So Tenold had every opportunity to kind of understand who Heimbach really was from that point, if nothing else.
So he's trying to recruit the Hammerskins, which are literally like curb stomping people.
You know, like it's not this isn't complicated, right?
you know, so Yeah, no, that's pretty much.
I think that's all my notes Well, there you have it.
That's the that's the American Nazis folks.
Yeah Well, it's sort of the modern ones.
I do.
Okay one more one more thought.
I so there was a And this leads into what we're gonna do next week.
So I'll just kind of highlight that here.
Uh, I Heimbach does have, or did have, a podcast of his own.
For a long time he was doing this thing called The Daily Traditionalist, which was sort of a spin on the show The Daily Nationalist, which was on a radio network, kind of an online radio network called Radio Arium.
Uh, Radio Arian is run by someone who calls himself Sven Longshanks, but his real name is Steve Stone.
And, um, he's actually one of your countrymen, Jack, so you can keep him as far as I'm concerned.
Um, I listened to the Daily Nationalist.
Racists from Britain?
Surely not.
No, they're all Americans.
No.
Um, he does, uh, like a, I think a 30 minute show five days a week.
And it's usually just like highlighting some awful, like black crime.
He reads old books and is like, yeah, they really had the science right in 1820, you know, don't you know?
He's a deeply stupid human being.
As so many of these guys are, but somehow even more noxious than a lot of the other ones, just in terms of his completely unreconstructed racism that he just spews all the time.
I don't know the regionalisms of his accent.
One day I'll give you a clip and you can tell me where he's from.
Anyway, so this guy Steve Stone.
Sven Longshanks runs Radio Aryan, and Heimbach did a podcast on that network for a long time.
I never really listened to that podcast, because the difficult thing is you don't discover these things.
They're all kind of in their little silos, so unless somebody kind of crosses over from another one, where you go, oh, Radio Aryan, what's that?
And then you go and kind of find it, and they go, oh, there's literally hours worth of content they're producing every day, and I can't possibly listen to it all, but I'll add it to my feed and listen to a bit of it here and there.
Um, but, uh, Heimbach actually had, uh, quit with Radio Arian, um, and had, uh, moved over to, um, The Right Stuff.
Uh, this is, uh, the, uh, podcast network that is the, uh, Daily Show, uh, Mikey Knox, uh, gig, and, uh, he produced nine whole episodes of Action, which was, uh, Action, with an exclamation point, was the newsletter they put out with the TWP for a long time, and then they did a podcast, On TRS, and that ended when the box broke.
So that gives you some sense.
He betrays Sven Longshanks, goes to become part of TRS, and then when the shit hits the fan, TRS boots him immediately and the entire movement just closes its doors on him, and that's why he ends up back with the NSM.
He'll come back up again sometime.
He's like a turd in a punch bowl.
He's just going to keep showing up, I guarantee you.
He's in this for life.
We'll see where he ends up next.
I will let you know when I see more of him.
He hasn't been anywhere for the last couple of months.
He's got to repair that box.
Although Matt Parrott fell through the box, so it's Parrott's job to do that.
Parrott appears on some of these shows every now and then.
Again, I haven't heard him in a while, but he's one of these old school guys.
They just call him the Parrott a lot of times, but apparently Matt Parrott is his real name.
Oh, that's clever.
In case you haven't figured it out now, Jack has been hectoring me for the last couple of weeks, and I've been putting it off, but not for any really good reason.
We are going to finally do the right stuff in Mike Enoch next week.
When we started Cantwell I said, I've listened to more of Cantwell than any other person except for one that I've listened to for this project.
Mikey and I can do the right stuff, and The Daily Show is by far number one.
Like, there's just no... And so this will be a big one.
This is a big one, yeah.
I think, you know, just kind of thinking about the way we did Cantwell, I think I'm just gonna try to kind of hit the high points and kind of do it in one, and kind of cover it big picture, and then we'll just kind of come back to it as we need to, and kind of fill in details.
So I think we're just going to do one episode.
I don't want to try to split it across two, but the next one will be difficult.
I'm just going to tell you that right now.
The next one will be difficult.
Just, just, you know, like there, there's a lot, there's a lot of dark stuff in this, so just, just be aware of it.
Yeah.
It's going to be fucking horrible listeners.
It's going to be horrible.
Just skip it.
Just skip it.
Just don't listen.
Just stop listening altogether.
You don't need this podcast in your life.
You don't need to know any of this awful stuff.
What's the matter with you?
I promise, I will try to make it fun.
I promise.
We're going to be covering a podcast called The Daily Showa.
I was going to say, once again, it's called The Daily Showa.
That's its name.
Right.
Oh, these pieces of shit.
The Daily Holocaust.
That's what the show is called.
And, like, all the myriad of people connected to it.
Yeah.
You say it, you know, you hear it, and you say it, and you read it, and it stops meaning anything.
You just think, oh yeah, it's The Daily Show, and then you stop.
You know, you have to every now and again.
I think you have to every now and again stop yourself and actually concentrate on what this means, you know.
That's what they're, that, you know, the Holocaust is what they're joking about.
And this is right on point to what we're going to be talking about next week, so I'm going to cut it off here.
But yes, this is exactly what we're going to be covering next week, is the right stuff, The Daily Show, I'm Mikey Knock, and the use of humor, in quotes, heavy quotes, mini quotes, as a way of guiding people into this movement.
