Jamie Winship and Russell Brand dismantle fear-based identities, contrasting the scarcity-driven separation worldview with a connection rooted in divine interdependence. They argue that negative internal voices stem from untrained listening, requiring individuals to filter noise like police radio frequencies to hear God's specific truth. While oligarchs seek false omnipotence, true transformation occurs when one is "encased in Christ," shifting the enemy from attacking past memories to confronting present lies. Ultimately, parents must reject generational trauma to help children receive their unique identity as beloved children of God, fostering natural unity across societal divides before fear can teach division. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Rumble Wallet Promo00:04:20
Russell Brand, a controversial conspiracy theorist.
Trying to bring real journalism to the American people.
Hello there, you awakening wonders.
Thanks for joining me today for Stay Free with Russell Brand.
It's a brilliant show today.
We have got Jamie Winship on the show.
Jamie Winship is a brilliant teacher, writer, former cop, and fascinating figure who's going to help you to understand your true identity and maybe why your life is so hard, so challenging, and so difficult.
Before we get into that, remember if you have not got Rumble Premium yet, get Rumble Premium right now.
You get additional content from me.
In fact, For those of you watching this on Rumble Premium, there will be an extra 30 minutes of content, and it's some of the best stuff you've got to get Rumble Premium.
Remember, too, a little bit of promo.
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There's a special offer this week.
Click the link in the description to get that.
And I have the great honor of telling you that, as well as Jamie's book being available, there's a link in the description.
Yes, Russell Brand, How to Become a Christian in Seven Days May Take 50 Years of Sin and Serious Fuck Ups to Get Started, is available for pre order.
There's a link in the description.
Telling you, showing you, making clear to you how to get that.
That's the cross made out of flies.
Because when the Lord came to me, it was like psychedelic kinesia, is how I describe it, or kinetic psychedelia.
It was eviscerating.
I knew that the Jesus of our culture and of our church was not the real truth of Jesus, that there was something deeper, more profound available to you right now.
If you've got to choose to buy just one book, maybe that one, two, Try that one.
If you've got time for free, very proud of this book.
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The way out is to believe about yourself, what God says about you.
Jamie Winship is a former law enforcement officer who has spent years working in conflict zones, particularly in the Middle East, training and advising local police and communities.
Today, through his work with Identity Exchange, he helps leaders and individuals identify the fears that drive their decisions and replace them with a clear understanding of who they are, teaching that when identity changes, behavior follows.
Whatever I'm doing, are the people around me being transformed?
If they are, I feel like I'm walking in the spirit with God.
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On-Chain Sovereignty00:03:09
Okay, then let's get into our conversation with Jamie Winship.
You're going to love this.
Please welcome to Stay Free with Russell Brand, Jamie Winship.
Jamie, will you pray for us?
Yeah, I would love to.
Yeah.
Lord, thank you for your love for us, your blessings, your forgiveness, your mercy for all humanity.
And I pray right now for every person listening, watching, Father, that you would work in them transformation that causes them to walk out of the false things they've learned to believe about themselves from the world, from the enemy, even from their own critical voice.
Walk them out of that through the power of your spirit, through the blood of Christ, into the truth of what you say about them, and that they would walk upright in that true identity with all freedom and authority and power.
In Jesus' name, amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Hey, that was cool.
Jamie, like, just so you lot watching know, what happened was someone told me to give my wife, uh, Leaving Fearless, okay, which is one of Jamie's books.
Um, and I read it while I was finishing my book.
This is Just to get things in correct order, this is not the book Living Fearless.
This is Jamie's new book that we'll be talking about today, The War of World Views by Jamie Winship.
Have a good look at that.
There's a link in the description for those of you that want to order it right now.
And while I was finishing my book, this is my book, first time I've shown it on the show, I was like reading Jamie's book Living Fearless, and I was like, oh no, this is better than my book while I was reading it.
I prefer this book.
But it made me really want to meet Jamie.
And then Jake here, who you guys who are regular viewers will know, who produces our show and so much more.
He, among those things, of course, performing nearly incessantly, incessantly with other Christian musicians.
Jake reached out to Jamie, and Jamie came here, and we spent a couple of days together.
Jamie worked these prayers and techniques that he has pioneered, developed, evolved, created, finessed.
I don't know, you, Jamie, will tell you.
And we got the opportunity to spend a lot of time with my wife.
With people in our community.
And it's been like, we're still sort of, Jamie, you having left day before yesterday, whenever it was, still sort of like, I saw Kyle this morning, our friend Kyle, the shark hunting seminar, seminary attending beekeeping warrior.
And like, he was like very moved by the time we spent together.
A lot of people have been really affected by you.
I love you just actually as a writer, even if you were just writing fictitious stories for entertainment and amusement.
I really enjoy them.
But the fact is, you're doing a lot more than that.
And thank you so much for joining us today.
Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
I had a great time with you and the lovely people in your community, your wife, and yeah, this is a great time there with you.
Thank you for having me.
In a way, you exemplified your work, as we also, I suppose, must, because when we reached out, you said, I'll come.
Essential Connections00:14:49
And I don't think I even said come.
I said, I wanted to talk to you, and you said, I'll come.
And you explained to me why that was.
How did you even with the process?
How do you think even our encounters together exemplify?
What you're espousing, explaining, and preaching in the war of worldviews.
How does.
Is there.
Would you say, even in our encounter, there are essential things that's from your.
Go on.
Absolutely.
Well, so like, and we can get into it, but really, basically, whether you're reading the Bible, the Torah, or studying anthropology or just history, there's really only ever been two worldviews put forth by humanity.
And they have different names, but, you know, Augustine might say city of God and city of man or something like that.
But really, when you're reading Moses explaining worldview to the Israelites, which is what he's doing in the book of Genesis, he's really saying there's only two worldviews, and they are the separation worldview.
And the connection worldview.
One is absolutely false and one is absolutely true.
And so, most of us, most of humans, whatever your background, are raised in the view that the world is separated based on scarcity and that kind of thing.
And so, we live very separated, isolated lives.
Even though we have lots of people around us, our worldview is still about separation.
And then we've got to separate ourselves from all the people we don't like.
And we've got to get rid of everything that we don't like, we're going to separate ourselves from in some way.
And first of all, you can't.
It's impossible to do that.
The other is for humans to live in isolation and separation is death to them, death to humans, because the reality is the whole system that we're in is built on connection.
It's all interconnected.
It can't be fragmented, it can't be separated and live.
And so if I'm living my life like the point of my life is self protection and self promotion, I'm living a separated, isolated life.
And then it's me first, then it's my family next.
And then, you know, maybe a few friends, but mostly I've got to self protect and self promote myself against a world where there's not enough of anything for everybody.
So it's constant war.
In the connection worldview, I'm paying attention to how vital it is that I stay connected at every level with nature, with God, with myself, with others.
And in that, because in the connection worldview, like in nature, everything depends on everything else, right?
And no tree is trying to go off and live by itself in a gated community because it can't.
The system will fail and die.
And so, if you're paying attention to connection, then when you're having, when you're meeting with a person or talking with a person, even a stranger, your question is, in what way is there an invitation here from God to connect at even a deeper level than just, how are you?
Constantly paying attention to that.
And so, you know, when I come and I've, when I have these sort of distant connections to someone like you through my, someone talking about your podcast or whatever, there's these, I realize that these are all connections.
And then the connections deepen, not because I'm making them deepen, but because nature, the universe, God is moving them closer together in connection.
And the closer they come, the more I pay attention to them.
And so, you know, someone I know sent you a direct message recommending, hey, Russell, when you're referring to identity, this is someone you might want to talk to.
And then another one of my friends, Picked you up hitchhiking in, you know, one day in Florida.
That was a good friend of mine.
And they're like, we're talking to me one day.
Hey, yeah, we picked up Russell and he was, he's this great guy, really loved him.
And so, and then, you know, when Jake contacted my assistant, it was all like, okay, wow, this has been building for some time, like just because I'm paying attention to it.
And so then when you and I finally got to talk, I was already asking God, are you inviting me?
Into a deeper connection with Russell, not because of celebrity or anything like that, but just because there's some kind of mutual, reciprocal blessing involved if you and I connected a deeper level.
So immediately I'm willing to come meet with you, as I would be anyone where I felt like God's saying to me, This is an important connection for him, for you, for your family, for his family, for his neighborhood, your neighborhood.
Because of this morphic resonance that happens.
And so, why would I want to miss that invitation?
I like your commitment to God, that your commitment to God is a spiritual program of action.
A lot of people that I feel I can connect with intimately and quickly may understand addiction in the most literal sense addiction to alcohol and drugs.
If you are addicted to alcohol and drugs, as I was, you don't have to remind yourself to think about heroin or alcohol.
It happens automatically.
In an ongoing discourse with drugs, alcohol, and even if you take that down a level, if you've got an eat in disorder or an obsession with pornography or an obsession with wealth or an obsession with self hatred and negative self talk, it doesn't require prompting.
You're continually caught up in these negative voices.
You tell a wonderful story at the beginning of this book about a time you were addressing Harvard University where you explain that, and I won't for a second time mess up the retelling as I did when I told it to my beloved friend Joe, who's also on the podcast with us on occasion.
What I was Say, is that through our encounter, an idea that I'd felt because I think, you know, as you say, with the sublime and holy truth of God's Son, there are myriad routes via which He will communicate, whether that's culturally, temporally, in the faith of Islam or in the Vedic traditions.
I'm a Christian explicitly and devoutly, I'm a follower of Christ Jesus, but I know that He has millions and billions, infinite ways of communicating.
So there are cultural ways of communicating, then there's a personal way, it's like we discussed when my beloved dog. Died, I realized he is a shepherd.
And I looked at it as I was burying him, or my friends were doing their spade work, Kyle among them, actually, and Nikki's husband.
Like, I wasn't doing the actual digging, I should clarify that.
But like, I noticed that I was wearing a Lord, the Lord is my shepherd, like, sort of top.
And I thought, oh my God, he's a shepherd.
He does make me walk by, lay down in green pastures and sit by still waters.
And he does restore off my soul.
And in that moment, I realized something that I'd found hard to accept that Christ would die for me.
Suddenly rushed into me.
So there are so many ways and infinite ways that God might communicate.
Most important, I think, is to recognize that there is the opportunity for continual unending communication with God within the most intimate temple of your own being.
And you really helped me under understand that Jamie on that visit.
What do you say about these voices and this sort of quality of inner voices, negative and positive?
Yeah, I mean, that's absolutely right.
And so, one thing that I talk about, and you and I talked about, and I think it's what the scriptures are saying, is that we know that what sets people free, what sets humans free, is knowing and experiencing truth, right?
Knowing and experiencing truth.
So, when we read that in the scriptures, it doesn't say knowing and experiencing Christian truth or knowing and experiencing Quranic truth.
There's not an ownership of the truth, it's the truth, right?
And so, when you're talking about all the ways that God can communicate with us, what God's always Communicating to us is what is true.
And so, when I'm with a group of people, like the Harvard example or wherever, whatever, even if the, and I did this yesterday with a group, is whether that group believes, I also am a Christ follower very devoutly and clearly.
Whether that group believes in Christ or the Bible doesn't matter.
My question to them is, we're going to talk about what's true.
And so I'm going to ask you a question right now.
And all I want you to do is tell me the truth.
Raise your hand.
If you can hear a voice inside of your head or heart somewhere that's telling you you're a disaster, you're a terrible parent, you know, you suck, you're a fraud, and everyone raises their hand.
Everyone raises their hand.
So we all agree right at the beginning, whatever our tradition is, is that we can hear voices inside of us, inside of our head that are external from us.
So we got, okay, so that's true.
So my next question is, okay, raise your hand then.
We all agree we can hear voices.
We hear voices that are critical.
Raise your hand if you hear a voice inside of your head that says, You're loved, you're amazing, you're more than enough.
Raise your hand, and nobody raises their hand.
Nobody raises their hand.
So we're all agreeing that we can all hear voices, and the voices that we're hearing, or listening to, or paying attention to are telling us that we're failures and we're unworthy.
But the voice, a voice that would tell us, You're amazing, you're connected, you're never alone, you're never powerless.
We can't hear it.
And that's a truth.
And that truth is a confession.
I can't hear that voice.
And so, because of just knowing that, then my challenge to the person is okay, well, what if we turn down the voice that's negative and turn up the voice that is there that is telling you the truth of who you are?
How liberating that would be and how empowering and how much fear that would take away if you could hear that voice.
And I give the example of when I was a rookie police officer and I'm in the car with my training officer, the troll, the beloved troll.
And he says to me, you've got to be able to hear your number when they call you, your unit number on the radio.
It's 510.
And I say, okay, I get that, but there's a hundred voices on that radio talking all the time.
And so he said, you've got to be able to hear they're saying 610 and 220 and 520.
You got to be able to hear 510.
And I said, okay, I will.
And he said, they've already called you twice while you're sitting here.
And I said, and so if you would have put me on a lie detector and said, did they call you two times already?
I would have said no.
And I would have been telling the truth and I would have been wrong.
It would have been false.
But because I couldn't hear it in my mind, it doesn't exist.
They didn't call me.
But that's the point is not the point is they were, they have called you.
But you haven't trained your ear to listen to that voice, but you can hear every other voice.
So, the discipline is how do I train or how do I be mentored?
Because it takes mentoring to turn down all the voices I've heard my whole life you're a loser and something's wrong with you.
Turn those voices down and listen to the other voice that's been talking the whole time.
But you say it wasn't speaking, not because it wasn't speaking, because you didn't hear it.
So, we're going to turn down the negative voices and turn up and focus in on the voice of the one who loved you, who's always loved you, who's never left you or forsaken you.
And we're going to learn how to listen to that voice.
So, the dispute is not can we hear voices?
The dispute is whether or not there's a voice that's loved you the whole time and created you and wants to guide you.
Jamie, I want to confess something to you.
Obviously, we're saying this to an audience, and hopefully, this will be seen at various points by my prayer, is millions of people.
I want to confess that sometimes I. Feel like I'm doing the voice of negativity to other people.
Like I'm doing the negative voice to maybe Jake, who I love, or my wife, who I love, or people I work with, or maybe even my children, who I completely, you know, would die for in a heartbeat.
And I think I'm doing the work of that negative voice.
How can I be cleansed of that?
We're talking to an audience now of people that I don't want them to experience no more of that negativity from me.
I want to be a conduit And amplifier of the voice within them that is telling them that they are beautiful, that they are enough, that they are loved.
What do I have to do?
Yeah.
So, Jesus says, out of the overflow of your heart, the mouth speaks.
So, like, what's filling this up?
You know?
And so, I mean, I was with some guys yesterday, you know, pretty serious people and not very open to emotional, Christian y kind of stuff.
And I was asking them, when you were growing up, you heard certain voices that made you fearful and doubtful in your life.
What were the tell me, tell me what those voices said?
And one of the men said, He's a successful guy.
He said, I've never really thought about it, but I, but I guess the main voice I heard was the times my dad, my dad, who loved me, would call me a dumbass, jokingly, you know.
And he said, But now that you're asking me that question, that's what I feel like.
That's what I feel like, even though I'm successful, but deep down, I still feel like that because that's what was spoken into me.
And in my own life, you know, you're a disappointment.
So that's spoken into us and a person can't give away what they don't have, but they, but they will give away what they do have.
And so, no matter what, what's going to come out of that guy.
And the reason I was talking to him was because of the conflict he's involved in, is because every time someone says to him, Hey, like we could do this better, all he hears is you're a dumbass.
That's what he hears.
And he reacts against it.
He reacts against it, but he doesn't know why.
Like, you're mean.
Why are you so mean?
I don't know.
I'm, I'm, but it's because that's been what's planted in him.
And so, when I'm talking to my kids as they're growing up, and I think, I think I'm a fake, I'm a fraud.
When I'm talking to my own kids, that's what comes out of me.
I've got to prove to them that I'm not fake, that I'm not fraud.
I've got to make sure that they don't make the same mistakes I make and you overcompensate or you whatever.
And so it's so interesting.
The way to speak blessing into people is by receiving blessing from God.
This is what Jesus says to the Samaritan woman If you drink from me, from you will flow the rivers of living water.
So the answer is receive from God.
Receive from God.
Receiving God First00:12:32
Let And this is hard for us, but you have to let God serve you first.
He has to serve you before you can serve other people.
And most humans think we're just here to serve God.
We're just here to serve God.
But He says, I didn't come to be served, I came to serve.
So we've always got it backwards.
Like, I got to get out and serve Him.
You can't serve Him unless He serves you first.
Man, I think about those geniuses in AA, just sorry to interrupt you, but like in the 12 steps, Like the first 10 steps are really about, well, the first six steps, evaluating yourselves.
Then there's some steps about making amends to people you've harmed to set things straight.
Then step 11, increase and improve through prayer and meditation, our conscious contact with God.
Step 12, carry the message, practice these principles in all your affairs, help others, go become a servant.
So the highest calling you can get is to become a servant of God, to receive what he's given you.
And it's not going to go back into, unless you're particularly called into sort of meditation, prayer worship, monasticism, mendicantism, you're mostly going to be going, Output transcript Outward in service and like our Lord, putting Himself among those who needed Him most the broken, the wounded, the hurt, the people that were most, I guess, in the material world, whether that's anchored, pulled down by their sexuality or by materialism and systems, bureaucratic, empire oriented systems.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
Hey, Jamie, isn't it strange that we all hear the same voice in the condemning?
You know, you're a disappointment.
You're a dumbass.
Like, I started to realize prior to reading.
Your book, I'm like, I'm programmed that there's certain things, certain stimulants that they would switch off my awareness.
In fact, yesterday after you'd gone, I was like, I was feeling very in the presence of the Lord, and I was like, I could moment to moment, stimulant by stimulant, identify, no, don't go down there, don't do that, you know, like just with interactions, no, don't stare, don't be silly, don't be.
And then the thought occurred, I wonder what it will be that will take me out of this.
And back into the kind of unconscious false identity.
And guess what?
It was a communication with my wife, me and my wife talking about money.
So I took out money and like I switched off and went into fear.
Like fear took over.
Exactly.
Right.
And so that's exactly right.
And that's where we get tripped up.
We're in this tight abiding with the Lord and listening.
And then, so something will happen.
And it's not just maybe you're talking about money or whatever.
And then what happens is this belief comes in there's not enough.
It precedes the fear.
It's the thought that precedes the fear.
What triggered me?
What statement triggered me?
We don't have enough money.
So that's the lie.
There's not enough.
There's the scarcity lie.
There's not enough, whatever.
And then immediately you feel fearful.
This is the mistake people make.
The fear isn't saying, you better be afraid you don't have enough.
The fear is saying, don't start believing the lie of scarcity.
That's what the fear is warning you against.
Stop right now.
What are you afraid of?
I'm afraid that we don't have enough money.
Keep going.
What does that mean?
God's not going to take care of us.
That's the lie.
And the fear is going, warning, warning, warning.
Deal with the lie.
Deal with the lie.
Don't try and get rid of the fear.
Deal with the lie and the fear goes away.
It's almost like the opposite of what people say if the finger is pointing to the moon and we asphyxiate on the finger.
People say that in a positive way, don't they?
Instead of focusing on God, we infatuate on the false idolatry, maybe of the carrier of the message, for example, or the nature of the church, or the doctrine, or the dogma.
But you're saying there's an inversion too, that fear is a gift.
My friend Gavin DeBecker, in fact, wrote a book called The Gift of Fear.
And the gift of fear would be pay attention, pay attention.
That's right.
That we actually go, oh, no, I've already done, we've sort of assumed that we're at the destination when in fact it's a journey energy.
It's journey energy.
Careful where you go, beware.
So, what does that mean?
I've heard you say elsewhere, you know, 365 times in scripture, do not be afraid, and yet poised or opposed or counterbalanced with.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Tell me about that, please.
Yeah, so, so, I mean, Hebrews chapter five, one of my favorite passages where, where it's talking about Jesus praying in the garden, Hebrews chapter five, especially in the amplified translation.
It says, with loud crying and groanings and loud tears, Jesus called out to the one who was able to save him up and out of death because he was horrified by the, by the idea of being separated from the glory of Christ, Hebrews chapter five.
So if you ask in that passage in the Garden of Gethsemane, if you ask Jesus, Why is he sweating blood?
What's the great travail in there?
According to Hebrews, his fear is that he in some way might be separated from the presence of God.
All of us should be terrified of that notion.
That's not what we're afraid of.
That's not what scares us.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of the wisdom.
Fear of the Lord is to fear not hearing his voice, is to fear not.
Not walking with him is to fear not giving to my kids the gift that he's given me and my identity.
Those are the things we should fear.
But what we should not be afraid of is that he's not with us.
We're not enough.
We're stupid.
And that has to be said 365 times.
Don't be afraid.
Because when the disciples lock themselves in the room after the resurrection, they do it out of fear.
It's not the fear of the Lord, it's the fear of the Jews.
That's why they're locking themselves in a room.
And so Jesus comes into that room through the locked door.
It's a very beautiful metaphor.
He comes inside of their locked door fear.
He doesn't need to open the door.
He just walks in it and he doesn't stand outside of your fear yelling to you.
He comes inside your fear and he says to them, Don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid.
That's the very first thing he says to them.
He doesn't say, Fear the Lord.
He says, Don't be afraid because what they're afraid of is that what's going to happen to them is what happened to Jesus and they're going to get killed and they're going to lose and the whole thing's a failure.
And he's saying, Don't be afraid of that.
Be afraid of locking yourselves in a room away from God.
Be afraid of isolating yourselves into separation and isolation.
And be afraid of that.
And so you and I talked about this too, you know, because I went through recovery myself.
And I was telling you that I would pray, as you rightfully said, I didn't have to wake up and say, Wow, how shall I think about alcohol today?
It was like, I've got to get to it as fast as I can.
Right.
And so, which we should be doing with the Lord instead of that.
And so when I'm going through the detox process, I kept saying to God, take this thirst away from me.
Take this thirst away from me.
Take this thirst away from me.
And he said, I want you to be thirsty.
I want you to be thirsty every single day.
I just don't want you to drink that.
Drink from meat.
Yes, yes, yes.
I notice, firstly, that fear is the beginning of wisdom, and that actually matches very beautifully.
And obviously, this is precisely your point, but just to extrapolate on that, that fear is the beginning of wisdom.
So, that fear, follow it, follow it, is going to lead you to wisdom.
Do you know?
I think there's something that seems very familiar to me, Jamie, in my own life, in this kind of sense of real irony that the thing that they fear, they are implementing.
Implementing through their fearful actions because the true fear is separation from God, and the actions that fear has led them to take is to separate them from God.
Now, I've got a lot of experience of that in my own life where I feel fear, and then the thing I do is manifest it.
I make it, I create it.
Now, does this do you sense the presence of the enemy in this, the enemy and the evil one?
Because even though I recognize, Jamie, that you know, we have to be men of our generation and use the language that's appropriate for our generation, that there is some kind of supernatural.
Component at work here if we, through the very fear that God gives us to lead us to Him, instantiate parts of the empire, counterfeit empire of the fallen one.
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's, it's, we live with the constant presence of the lie, right?
The lie, the liar.
That's exactly right.
And the lie is always right here, it's always here.
And so, even when Jesus is going through the temptation successfully, you know, it says that Satan, the liar, went away and waited for a more opportune time, not gone forever.
It's like, oh no, oh no, the lie will always be there to be embraced, always.
And so, that's no matter how tightly we abide.
That lie is always in our ear.
And so the discipline is for me.
Let me give you an example.
So for me, I'm a disappointment.
That's my big lie.
And that lie causes me to overcompensate or to withdraw one of the two.
And both of them causes me to move into a false version of myself the overcompensating me or the I'm not going to participate me.
Both of those are motivated by the absolute belief that I'm a disappointment is my actual identity.
That's the lie I have to deal with.
When the Lord, when I meet Christ and I start to understand, He never said that about me.
In fact, it's the opposite that He says about me.
So I learned to know that's true.
So we call this moving the enemy from behind you to in front of you.
So the idea is like when a person is triggered by something, they believe something that was taught to them or said about them from their past that's living in them as true in the present, it's coming from behind them.
When you experience transformation in Christ and Christ in you, the hope of glory, and the old has passed away and the new has come, it's taking away the lie from the past.
So, as you mature and you develop, you'll be able to go back into memories with Christ, who will redeem the moments in your past that cursed you.
The moments are real.
What happened is real.
This person said that about you.
This did happen, whatever.
But with Christ, In back in the memory with you, he's telling you, yeah, they said that, but here's the truth about why they said it.
Here's the truth about what I said about you on that same day.
And so the memories that have been fragmented and fractured, he remembers them.
So when we go back with him, they're not condemnation and accusation.
They're being remembered by Christ so that when the enemy tries to attack us from the back, there's no condemnation there.
That's what the verse is.
There is now no condemnation in the past.
So that means when I go back there and I did all of these things because I believed all these lies about myself, when I go back there with Jesus, then I can walk through this same incident with him talking to me the whole time instead of my dad or the abuser.
It's him talking to me, and he takes the fracture and the fragmentation that happened in that horrible moment and he remembers it.
He puts it all back together in a way that's true.
And this allows me to forgive the people in the past.
It allows me to forgive myself, right?
And then it allows, so the enemy, this is how we tactically talk about it, can no longer attack me from the past.
He still will, but now he has to come from the front, right?
He has to come from in front of me.
And the benefit of that is I can see him coming.
I can see him come a mile away.
Tax Network USA00:03:38
And I could go, here we go, here we go.
I'm going to hear I'm a disappointment.
Here we go.
But I beat it before he gets there.
Right?
So Jesus, the enemy never can attack Jesus from his past.
So whenever the enemy comes at Jesus, Jesus is right there.
It's right there.
It's right there.
And so if I'm in a, you know, Donna says something to me that triggers me, I'm like, there it is.
What she said, you know, is there another way you could have disciplined our son there?
Instead of hearing, oh, I'm a disappointment as a parent, and then reacting against all of that with anger and defensiveness and fear, I can go, wow.
Boy, the enemy, right when she said that, the enemy is right there going, You know what that means, your disappointment.
But I can see him.
I can see it.
I can hear the lie.
And I'm not going that way.
I'm not going to go down that route.
I reject you in the name of Jesus.
Jamie, we're going to pause right now for a quick message from one of our partners without whom we can't make this content.
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That's how they want it.
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Prowling Lion Media00:05:01
There's a link down there.
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Tax Network USA, stop what you're doing.
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Click the link in the description.
Stay to the end.
Learn from this.
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So, check out this.
Like, there's like, you know, prowling like a lion.
That's good, isn't it?
Because you can see a lion.
He's prowling like a lion.
No problem.
I can check out a lion rather than some weird, insidious, invisible, parasitic thing rising up from the guts.
That's harder to detect.
Two things there.
Around that verse in Hebrew, there's the, I always think I pronounce this wrong, Melchizedek or Melchizedek.
How do you say in your accent?
Like, you know, he's making.
The point that outside of their tradition, there is a high priest that appears in their history outside of Levitical tradition, i.e., even from outside, I guess, because Hebrews is one might imagine addressed to Hebrew people, letting them know that there is something beyond the limitations of their tradition and that Christ is of that tradition.
Now, C.S. Lewis, he in his book Great Divorce seems to be espousing two key ideas, as far as I can say, and I'm not suggesting this is the final now in the coughing of analyzing any of C.S. Lewis's great works, but I would say.
One thing he plainly says, literally, is like when you look back at your life, if you accept the Lord, you will see that it was all heaven, that it was all coaching you into this state.
If you reject the Lord, then you will look back and see it all as purgatorial in all of its greyness and drabness, as excellently depicted in that book by C.S. Lewis.
Notable, too, given the nature of your work, my friend and teacher, is that the problems those people have, the individual case studies in this visit to heaven, as explained in The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis, Is each one of them unwilling to let go of their identity?
The ones that are unwilling to let go of their worldly identity cannot receive heaven.
They can't receive it.
They can't go there.
I'd like to offer you this too from the Maharabhata, specifically, I think, in the Bhagavad Gita.
The warrior Arjuna, who does rightly choose Krishna, Christ, to be at his side in the battle, and is told, you know, this battle's already done.
All of us are already killed by time.
It doesn't matter that you're lining up against your Cousins and your uncles and your teachers, they're all dead by time anyway.
When Krishna's finished explaining everything to Arjuna, Arjuna's last words are, I remember.
I remember.
He puts it all back together in that moment.
And finally, one time while making a movie, this dude on the movie had worked for Rupert Murdoch.
Rupert Murdoch is the Australian media magnate, owner of much of News International at different times Fox News, Sun newspaper, Times in the UK, lots.
He's a big, big, powerful dude and he's going strong at 93 years and four marriages in.
I said to this guy way back 20 years ago, whatever, when I was making this movie, can you tell me something about Rupert Murdoch?
You know, I was kind of fascinated by him because, as a British Person, I've seen the impact of his media empire on British culture, and it's not a good one, I would say, largely.
And he goes, Yeah, Reuben Murdoch lives like he's never gonna die, like as if death doesn't apply to him.
So if something doesn't go his way, he's like, He waits for a more opportune moment.
And I note that there is something Luciferian often in these oligarchical figures.
These magnates, a while ago, were strewn in the world of mass print media.
Now, We have a new oligarchical class.
One might say they're doing that.
They're sort of carrying that false arc of false counterfeit knowledge together.
And I note that they have an extraordinary fascination with not dying.
With like, don't worry, you'll be able to download your consciousness into a thing and we'll all live forever and we'll take this supplement and that supplement.
Note the irony.
I do love the methylene blue myself.
But like what I would say is that this fixation with God's domain and entering into his domain, creating great knowledge bases, false omniscience, false omnipresence, false omnipotence is a, The hallmark of the evil one, the hallmark of the empire.
I wonder, Jamie, how do each of us demark our particular assignments in the kingdom?
How do you help to determine that?
I mean, you have a very extraordinary backstory, and of course, it's a matter of public record that you were a police officer and a police officer that excelled in unusual ways.
But I was very curious about why you found yourself spending so much time in Middle Eastern countries working.
Out there.
It seems to be a very interesting path that's led you to where you are.
Yeah, I mean, so that's like everything that you're saying.
It's super interesting when you're talking about these Lucerian figures that are actually in denial of the truth of who they are.
Untying Identity Knots00:10:21
They wouldn't even know.
The whole thing that they're doing is this denial of mortality and fallibility and all the stuff that's real in a connected worldview.
And so, to me, it all comes down to identity.
I think this is what the scriptures are about from the very beginning when God names Adam and Eve and then he gives them the power to name.
That's what he gives them the authority to do to name, to give identity to nature, to creation.
And then naming is critical to God.
The names of things, the names of places, what does the enemy call you?
What does God call you?
So it's about identity.
And you said it in the intro.
Identity, if identity isn't transformed in a person, nothing will transform.
Beliefs won't transform.
Nothing transforms.
And so when I'm a You know, rookie police officer, and you're out there, and we're like, if we could just put people in this kind of housing, or if we none of that transforms the person, what transforms the person is identity.
Once the person understands the truth of who God says that they are, it's like the Apostle Paul says in Philippians, he says, People say I'm imprisoned, and they're ashamed because I'm in prison.
I'm not in prison, I'm encased in Christ.
That's what he says I'm encased in Christ.
And so, his identity doesn't come from the circumstances around him.
Or his vocation, it comes, he brings his identity into the circumstances and into his vocation.
So then, identity for me is, you know, I wanted to be a police officer.
I wanted to be a police officer.
That was the key word to me, not do police work.
I wanted to be a police officer.
And it represented something in my 14 year old mind when I wanted to do that.
And as I journeyed towards that vocation, you know, I met this amazing nurse who walked me into understanding Jesus in a correct way.
And she modeled it to me.
So, when I got into the police department, I knew that I was bringing my identity into the vocation, which allowed me the freedom to make decisions even if I lost my job.
So, a person who gets their identity from what they do, what they have, and what people think about them are absolutely imprisoned their whole life.
Yeah.
Right.
And so, identity to me was like, this gives me the freedom to, if God invites me to do something and it's counter to my vocation or, you know, the general orders or something like that, I can weigh it and say, What's more important, this person that I'm talking to or my job, which is one of the stories I tell in that book there.
And so once I understood identity, then started to understand my identity, and my identity happens to be identity is interesting.
God speaks at identity generally, and then he becomes more and more specific.
So he might say to a person, Your identity is you are beloved.
Unless a person really understands and accepts that they're loved by God, they won't go any further to receive anything from God that he offers them.
Well, so I'm calling you a mighty man of valor.
Yeah, but I don't think you'd love me.
So why would I believe that I'm a mighty man of valor?
So there's these basics.
You're loved by God.
We love him because he first loved us.
How do we know he loved us?
Because he demonstrated his love to us and that while we were his enemies, he died for us.
That's, that's how you know he loves you.
He did it.
He demonstrated and you have to receive what he did when he served you on the cross.
He served you there.
He served you there.
And you have to receive him serving you.
And if you don't receive what he served you, you can never become anything, right?
And so that's why to be in the kingdom, you have to receive.
You have to let God serve you first.
And what he's serving you is the truth of who you are.
He's telling you that, and you have to receive what he says about you, not what the pastor says about you, not what.
Anybody says about you, what he says about you.
And then the goal of life is to live and believe about yourself what God says and believes about you.
That's the key.
That's identity.
Then when you start to understand that my identity in the kingdom, this is from Mark chapter four, is God refers to me as an untire of knots.
That's how he refers to me.
I'm born again.
I'm a child of God.
I'm one of the chosen.
Those are collective family identities.
Yeah.
But each Child has a distinct identity, just like in our family.
So once I get, once I understand that, and this is what we're always walking people into this process of understanding their own unique identity, it says the identity is so, as Isaiah says, that you will know that you are mine.
I'm giving you this name so that not so you can do stuff for me, but so that you will know that you are mine.
Like your little kids, you know, when you say their names, and I love the way you talk to them, what you're telling them is you belong to me.
You belong in this family.
And that gives them security.
And you tell them you're beautiful.
You're telling, and they have to receive that from you, right?
Instead of saying, you know, you're a nutcase, but you're saying you're beautiful and you're smart and I love how you draw.
You're pumping identity into them and they're receiving it from you.
Now they're all your kids and you love them all, but you love this one in a certain way and this one and they have distinct identity.
So you're giving that to them.
And so what happens to them, and I've watched this in the short time I was with your kids, I watch vocationally what they do because of their identity, these attractions towards certain actions and nature and drawing, it's because that's their identity expressing itself.
And so as a parent, You're trying to help them, along with you, identify that the identity God has given them.
You're helping them identify it and walk in it and learn not to be afraid of it or to reject it or to believe other identities that the world's going to call them and give them.
That's what good parenting is teaching a kid how to hear from God and know their identity.
If they can hear from God well and they understand their identity, you can put them in any situation in the future and they'll be fine.
But Christian parents can't do it because those kids can't hear from God and they don't know their identity.
So, we've got to take them away, put them over here, keep them over here, keep them away from everybody else.
It's separation.
We can't throw them into the dark real world because they won't be able to stand.
All they'll be able to do is to try and make the whole rest of the world just like themselves, which means they'll become its dominant theology.
If I can just dominate everything, then everyone will have to be like me.
Then I'll be okay.
Yeah, that's no good.
And then it crushes the identity of all the other people, right?
No good, right?
And everyone has to be just like you.
And so, as an untieer of knots, so once I understand that's my identity, then my gift to every person I encounter is to untie their knots.
That's my gift to them.
And you can say your own identity, I know what it is, but my wife is a timeless life giver.
And so, when she's talking with a person, she's giving them life.
That's what she does.
She doesn't untie their knots, I do.
She gives them life.
But when we're together, I'm untying their knots and she's giving their, it's like a double infusion.
And when you have five identities together with a people group, you have five different identities pouring their identities into this people, and it allows them the freedom to become who they are.
Yes.
And so I was saying this to some police officers yesterday.
Imagine you're on a 911 call in a domestic dispute, and you're not going to go in there to lock people up.
You don't need God to lock people up or the Holy Spirit or prayer.
It doesn't require any of that.
But to go in there, and I know, okay, I'm a police officer, but I'm an untired nun.
I'm going in this to domestic dispute.
The greatest thing I can do in my vocation, my vocation has allowed me to be there.
That's what my vocation is giving me access to these people.
Beautiful.
Yes.
Acting gives you access to people.
Writing gives podcasts access to people.
Why?
So you can give them the gift of your identity.
And from that, they can discover their own identity.
That's what makes it transformational.
Otherwise, it's just a podcast or whatever.
So when I go in there and I would say, you know, we break up the fight, you know, all that.
But when I'm with the person and I start to say to them, look, I'm a police officer, but really what I'm here for is to give you the give my, here's my, tell me what you're afraid of.
Like, what are you afraid of in the situation that you're in?
And help them untie knots that they don't even know they have.
The beauty of that is when a police officer does something like that, you don't just stop the domestic dispute for tonight.
You can end it forever for that person.
Beautiful.
Like, we're not going back there anymore.
And then the person writes a letter to the chief of police saying, Wow, we didn't know you trained your police officer to talk like this.
You know, oh, right.
That's good gear.
That's good gear.
You know, because untie of knots, that's a very good.
Position like a good vocation to approach from because the person's in a kind of crisis mode, and like so, they're very good position to receive that wisdom.
I was just thinking about this Our Lord, I knit you together in your mother's womb.
The fallen one ties the knots, makes you into a new pattern, conforms you to the pattern of the world.
The fallen one, because the reason it's hard to untie people's knots is they think they are the knot that you think they think you're undoing the truth of who they are, they're living in a counter.
Fit identity, a sort of a facsimile identity that's been woven into him.
In the sense you were here, you know, because I chatted to Joe, who's on one of our podcasts with us.
You know, while I wanted to do it with Joe, my best version of what I've seen you do with people with Joe, so that you could see me do it.
Clothing as Identity00:02:53
Then I like, and you said it was good.
So, like, I felt empowered to carry on.
Then, when I was with like a friend of the family, like, there was this lady, and like, funny enough, she did do it exactly how you just described.
Firstly, she said a generic identity, daughter of God.
And I said, keep going, keep going.
And like, she got to an idea, like, a different identity.
And then I saw her again today.
And I said hi there to her, and I said her name, and she said, No, call me by my new name.
And before, like, really crazy.
And before I met you, I kept having this feeling all the time when I was reading scripture of, I'm going to change my name.
I'm going to change my name.
I'm going to change my name.
I want a different name.
I'm going to change.
And I kept, like, you know, looking at words in scripture.
It's like, hmm, Ezekiel, that would suit me.
And I'm looking at it, so I'm like, But now I realize it's not that name.
It's not that, although my name is Brand, unbelievably.
I'm like, like, um, You know, like it's like because brand as a noun, it's as a verb.
Oh my word.
I mean, it's there's such a lot in there.
It's got fire in it.
There's so much stuff going on in that name, Smith.
I like, yeah, and out there is Fields.
You know, like it's like there.
This whole thing has been sort of beautifully crafted by him.
And anyway, so this morning we were having Mabel, my daughter, she was sick in the night, you know.
I must say I didn't do excellent.
I heard what was going on and I pulled that duvet up nice and tight while my wife was like dealing with puke on the rug and stuff.
Stuff like that.
Anyway, kind of like this morning, Mabel weren't sick no more, but she was not in a good state.
And like there was conflict in the household, and I heard her and I said, Come.
And she came to where I was praying, you know, where we were hanging out.
By the way, you've left a notepad there.
I've not even looked at it in case it's like I should look at it.
There's a small notepad.
Yeah, I won't look at it.
I will get it back to you.
Anyway, Russell Brand, psychopath, charlatan.
Wait a minute.
Anyway, so we were up in that.
We were up in this place, and we.
Like, uh, when I was, you know, obviously it's different when you're talking to a child, and because a child won't know how to communicate to you, they won't know how to, but I was feeling.
Like, she was angry about not being able to find an item of clothing, but item of clothing is identity.
You know, what is that technicolor?
What's that technicolor dream?
That technicolor dream coat's got some work to do.
Like, you know, and I felt like I was able, just by being with her and by allowing the Lord, like, before she was making her way up, I was like, you handle this, Lord.
You handle this.
And, like, so in my dealings with her, I didn't get irritated or agitated.
And I actually didn't do or say anything that profound.
We prayed a little together.
And I told her that I, like, I loved her.
Her and I loved her exactly.
She wasn't as much as I loved her.
She was loved even more by God.
And I said, You don't need me, by the way, to get that.
Technicolor Dreams00:03:16
You have your own access, your own access, not via me to God.
And then we just played and we were just talking about dumb stuff.
And she just wanted to stay there, carrying on doing it.
You know, like all of our parents, they make those errors.
They give us those synecdoche identities that they casually flick on you because, you know, the great poet, the British poet Philip Larkin wrote, They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They give you all the faults they had and some extra just for you, but they in turn were fucked up to by fools in old style hats and coats.
Identity.
Get out, man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can and don't have any kids yourself.
At the end it says Philip Larkin is an atheist.
But the Christian version of that is you can learn how to break those chains.
You can learn how to, by receiving your true identity in him.
Endow them, endow them.
And you're really doing an amazing job of bringing clarity.
And one of the other things I'm learning is how to manage this space because, you know, I do have the zeal of the newly converted as a person that came to Christ early, you know.
And I wonder how to manage that language, Jamie.
I wonder how to, you know, I'm from a country that, you know, I know I'm going to be spending more time in soon where there is a lot of dispute around identity, the identity of the United Kingdom, the role of the Muslim population, the tension.
As people stop believing in God and stop, it seems, believing in anything.
Even the whole country has an identity crisis because Great Britain is no longer the imprature of empire.
Whoever that was has migrated to US power, whoever's carrying out those counterfeit empire versions of power.
And I wonder how you propose we conduct this conversation with a variety of communities that seem to be positioned to, for example, I take the working class British.
And Muslims, there's this idea that they should be in continual conflict, and that's really getting a lot of pace at the moment.
How do we do?
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So in those situations, that's really where we kind of learned what we've learned.
It was in the Middle East, in those Islamic, Christian, Jewish conflicts.
And the only way that we could figure out how to do it was like what I learned as a police officer is when you go into that, into a room with, it was interesting when they put Arab Muslim little kids with Israeli kids in a kindergarten, they made friends immediately and they could begin, they started to develop their own way of communicating back and forth with a mixture of Arabic and Hebrew.
Connecting Children00:00:48
They just could figure it out because they connect.
That's what they'll do as children, they'll connect.
Because they haven't learned yet that you're not allowed to connect with that person.
They have to be taught that.
So at first they just connect and they're very, and there's all these, it's like amazing how they get along together until about third or fourth grade and then they'll start separating.
And when you figure out, like, why were they such good mates, you know, playing on the playground and everything up until third grade, it's because the parents hadn't taught them the fear of the other one yet.
They hadn't taught them that yet.
Right.
And so when they get older, then the parents are like, well, okay, yeah, it's nice to be friends with those kids when they're little.
But let me tell you the reality of this you they're our enemies, they're going to hurt you, and they instill fear.