Michael Malice and James Smith dissect American political rigidity, arguing the left functions as an evangelical religion demanding total ideological conformity. They critique Antifa's violence, contrast it with corporate co-opted movements, and analyze Hans Hermann Hoppe's controversial alliance with the alt-right to undermine institutions. The discussion highlights the impracticality of immediate anarchist transitions due to state incarceration power, yet notes how "defund the police" rhetoric successfully shifts the Overton window toward restored gun rights. Ultimately, they conclude that realizing opponents are merely wrong rather than existential enemies is essential for peaceful coexistence beyond the state's divisive control. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Heshy Socks Sponsorship00:05:25
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All right, let's start the show.
We need to roll back the state.
We spy on all of our own citizens.
Our prisons are flooded with nonviolent drug offenders.
If you want to know who America's next enemy is, look at who we're funding right now.
Every single one of these problems are a result of government being way too big.
You're listening to part of the problem on the Gas Digital Network.
Here's your host, James Smith.
Hey, what's up, everybody?
Welcome to a brand new episode of Part of the Problem, the crossover event of the century continues.
It's what everybody's been talking about.
They want more.
People are demanding more.
They are, though.
Yeah, they are.
People are very starting to get upset that this might be the end of the lockdown and thus the end of the crossover episodes.
What will happen in the future?
Anybody's guess.
Nobody knows.
But we will see.
Of course, I'm joined by the man, the myth, the legend, Michael Malice.
How are you doing, brother?
I'm okay.
You're a little bit annoyed about some jeans you ordered.
There's two things I'm annoyed about.
I'm not going to lie.
First of all, I've been going on this.
This is, by the way, this segment is brought to you by Autism Speaks.
Autism Speaks.
Let's all listen.
First of all, I went on this tear of getting, and the fans chipped in, of getting every cereal because I eat a lot of cereal and I'm going to review like literally all of them.
I have 100 boxes cereal in my house.
And the last two are from exclusive cereal.com, those fuckers.
I ordered them on May 20th and they're not here and they didn't reply to my emails about whether they've been mailed or not.
I want my magic fruity pebbles and my drumstick cereal.
Those are the last two I need other than the Oreos from Korea, which are en route.
And I pay by debit card and I can't figure out how to dispute the charge on my card.
That's one.
Then I got these super heavyweight handmade jeans from Indonesia yesterday and they're not super heavyweight.
Like super heavyweight jeans should be hard to move around in.
And these are thin.
And I'm fucking pissed.
Wow.
So there is a real problem.
Look, who's the real victim here?
Me or George Floyd?
I'm still suffering.
He's in heaven.
He's in heaven hanging out with Malcolm X.
Yeah, he's in heaven.
Martin Luther King.
And all the founding fathers, especially the slave owners.
But they're all getting along together very well.
But Indonesia still has a metaphorical knee on your neck.
Well, yeah.
It's sick.
It's sick.
I got a child called on my wallet.
So what's your favorite cereal?
Well, I love the idea of booberry because that has emotional resonance for me, but it's not a good cereal.
Okay.
My favorite cereal to eat.
Corn pops is up there.
Oh, corn pops are good.
Cranberry Almond Crunch is up there.
Lucky Charms and Milk is up there, but I've been eating all the cereal dry.
Fruity Pebbles is surprisingly good.
I haven't had fruity pebbles since I was like nine years old.
It's like gay rice krispies.
That is an excellent way to describe fruity pebbles.
Yes, they really are.
They're rice krispies, gay cousin.
Yeah.
Oh.
All right.
Memories.
So.
And don't ask about Coco Krispies.
Coco Krispies was shot by the police.
By the Cookie Krisp guy.
Cookie Krisp cop.
Oh, man.
So this is obviously we're going to kind of pick up, you know, to some degree where we left off on your show because there's so much here still to talk about.
It seems that what you pointed out on your show last time has really spread, which is the message that, and it comes along with a like, how stupid are you?
Generalizing Political Movements00:11:53
Defund the police doesn't mean defunding the police.
It obviously means X, Y, or Z, something else.
But it does, it seems to me.
Wait, can I say one thing?
Go ahead, sure.
It doesn't mean that, but we need to have less immigration clearly means the Klan did nothing wrong.
Yes, that's exactly right.
That's what that means.
It's a really, it's a, and well, this has been that, what you just touched on is like a broader theme of real.
I mean, it's my entire lifetime, but really it's been ramped up in the last few years where anything coming out of the right wing, broadly speaking, will be given the absolute least charitable interpretation.
And anything coming out of the left is you bend over backward to interpret it in the most charitable way.
I think they have to do that because it's become impossible to not hear right-wing points of view and especially right-wing points of view that are coherent and intelligent and informed.
I'm not talking about Turning Points USA or something like that, right?
So when you, if your whole argument is that you got to buy our shtick, a hook line and sinker, like all of it, it's a big package deal.
You have to be for Obamacare and pro-choice and the UN and environmental justice and the, you know, and blah, blah, blah, like the whole list.
Like you can't deviate at all.
And then when you hear someone say, okay, how about seven out of eight of that?
Great, but like, let's just like not do this one.
That's because then you don't have a monopoly.
Then you don't have control.
Then you have panic.
So they, because there's all these, you know, it used to be a binary worldview, right?
You had the Republicans and the Democrats, whatever, and each had some umbrella, sure.
Now you've got, you know, in the internet allows one, look at like hobbies, right?
It used to be cats and dog owners.
Maybe some weirdo had a bird.
Now if I want to get a chinchilla, or you did, not only would I not think that's weird, I'd be like, I wouldn't be certain.
If you said I can't find out how to raise a chinchilla, I'd be like, you're ridiculous.
You could go online in five seconds, right?
And find, I'm sure, 100 chinchilla breeders who'd be happy to tell you, right?
So now that you have all these options in pets, in sodas, in cereals, to have it be two options in politics is really, really hard to maintain.
So it has to be, instead of a logical argument, it has to be a sociological argument.
Don't listen to these people.
It's not that they're wrong.
It's that they're radioactive.
Do not look and don't trust the judgment of your own eyes.
Yeah, it sounds like what he's saying is wrong and not something I agree with.
It's not that he's wrong.
It's that he wants literal lynching today.
Yes, that's right.
Well, the pet analogy is really great.
So I guess we are the chinchilla breeders of the world.
We're offering you a whole different, a whole different flavor.
Well, I think if we start talking about pure bread, it has certain connotations.
Oh, I'm aware.
That was not an accident.
That is exactly what we are offering you.
My dog whistle has a megaphone.
You know, this was a big theme in your book, The New Right, which people, if you have not already, should go read or listen to.
Yes.
You know, I actually haven't listened to it.
I read it.
I'm not a big audiobook guy, but everybody who has listened to yours also says that one of the best parts of it is hearing you do all the voices and stuff like that.
So yeah, people really enjoy that.
But one of the major themes of the book, in fact, I suppose in a way, a central theme of the book is that the left is an evangelical, progressivism is this kind of evangelical religion that the right, the new right is reacting against.
And that's kind of what keeps the new right together.
There's really nothing else except that that keeps all of these different groups together.
And as you just mentioned, and everybody, I think almost every normal person has noticed this about the new left, if you will, that seven out of eight is not acceptable.
You're a Nazi.
You could disagree with all eight points that they make or one and you're a Nazi.
But that's really been on full display during with the Black Lives Matter protests, riots, whatever, all this stuff that's going on.
Now, I think that many people have pointed out that something we'd probably agree with that's like, you know, Antifa is really kind of worse than Black Lives Matter.
Yeah, I had this poll on my, sorry to interrupt you.
I had that poll on my Twitter, which is obviously not scientific.
And I was like, you know, who do you, who would you align with more?
It was, I actually misspoke.
It was white collegiate women or Black Lives Matter activists.
And the Black Lives Matter activist took it away seven to one because there is, I think if you sit down and the emotions die away and you think about, okay, which of these groups is worse?
It is pretty sure that there's a possibility, 10%, that, and I'm being very conservative.
I think it's much higher, that you could have that conversation with that Black Lives Matter activist.
And many of them, who, if you're not a Black person, would be this like, all right, let's actually have a conversation.
Let me explain to you where I'm coming from.
Now, you might disagree, but they, I think a lot of them are trained and prepared to have these explanations.
And like, this is what you're not hearing, right?
Yes.
That collegiate girl, she's not having a conversation.
She's telling you what to think and she's going to be annoying as hell.
Yes.
So between those two, it's not even hard for me.
Oh, no, I mean, yes, I completely agree with that.
And I think that it's like, if you, you know, look, Black Lives Matter, and I've said this from the very beginning, I have a large degree of sympathy for the movement.
I mean, I do think that like, you know, I believe in liberty, period.
And even if you're going to argue that you don't think the cops are that bad, if a group of people doesn't want this security force, I think they have every right to not have that security force.
And so just by the very nature of their complaint, it makes it a tyrannical force.
As soon as you don't want something and it's forced upon you, that's wrong in my book.
And even if they're not killing anyone.
Like, what if it's just a customer service issue?
What if like, you know, you have this business and everyone who works for this business is an asshole to you.
And you're like, this fucking sucks.
That's fair.
I don't know what it's like to be in a black person in a black neighborhood.
That doesn't mean what they're saying is true.
It doesn't mean what they're saying is valid.
It just means it's not impossible that there's some truth to what they're saying.
This collegiate chick, it is pretty much impossible.
Yes, I agree.
And I will say, I mean, you know, look, even like, who's that guy?
Sean King?
Yeah, who's yes, who's, you know, an easy target to make fun of because he's, I believe, a white person pretending to be black.
And he's threw his own mother under the bus when he was confronted about that.
And he's just, you know, some a bit of a ridiculous person.
I mean, at least a third of his tweets are like really good points.
Like at least like, you know, something like around there, you go, ah, that is, he did kind of nail that one like that.
So there is something there.
Whereas the Antifa guys are like these fucking, you know, privileged, to borrow their word, kids who show up at a rally with like people.
Oh my God.
Hold on.
Can I tweet something out?
I just, you just inspired a great tweet.
All right.
And I'm going to tweet it out right here.
Antifa is the first example in contemporary.
You're watching the magic happen, people.
Sociopolitical discourse, where a predominantly white, and that's in quotes, movement is not stigmatized on its face as such by the corporate press.
Right?
Every other time, predominantly white, predominantly white.
Yes, that's a great point.
The Tea Party, any movement.
Every time, they always call it predominantly white.
Oh, they had a couple of black people.
It's like, okay, what's your point?
And the implication is, well, something's wrong if you're not attracting black people because it has its roots in the civil rights movement.
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
And right, Antifa does not get this.
And they're actually using, in many cases, the thug, you know, element of these marches.
Not saying everyone there is a thug, but they're in many ways using the thugs that are there, like trying to incite other black people to go loot and things like this.
No, I'm not taking responsibility off anybody.
Can I say one more thing?
I'm sorry to care for you.
You're inspiring a lot of thoughts of mine.
I'm reading a book right now by Eugene Lyons called The Red Decade.
And he talks about the 30s.
He was a reporter for Russia.
And I'm pulling all these quotes on my Twitter because a lot of the stuff people are like, oh, the reporters used to be good back in the day.
And I'm like, they're saying verbatim the same thing in the 30s they're saying now, 90 years ago.
And what you're saying is true.
Like he had all these examples of communists flipping out at union workers.
They were called social fascists.
That's the term they made up specifically for labor unions because the labor unions are mitigating the damage of the capitalists.
They're asking for piecemeal improvements.
They're saying 10-hour workday, ridiculous, like these absurd 10-hour workday.
I want to have a weekend off, some benefits, whatever.
And the commies taking orders from Moscow were saying you guys are thwarting the revolution.
So you're the enemy.
So it's a very similar thing to what you're seeing now.
It's like a lot of these Black Lives Matter activists are not communists.
They don't want full overthrow of the government.
They want things maybe you and I and a lot of people be like, hey, this is ridiculous.
You're not getting like a personal teacher for every kid, blah, blah, blah.
But they do not want violent overthrow and this kind of totalitarianism that many in Atifa want.
Yes.
Well, that's for sure.
However, you know, switching the focus to the Black Lives Matter movement.
And again, it's very difficult to talk about a lot of these groups that are decentralized and don't have one leader and don't have, you know, it's not like these are the official Black Lives Matter talking points.
But at the same time, when something this big is going on, you have to generalize a little bit.
Otherwise, you can't talk about them.
But the thing that's really disturbing me about the Black Lives Matter movement, and I'll separate them from the rioters and the looters, say, okay, because I don't think it's the same thing.
I think one is opportunistic thugs and the other are people concerned with the movement.
But what's really concerning me is how evangelical and totalitarian the movement seems to be.
And there seems to be this thing where it's like the white, what is it, the white silences violence is a hashtag that's been going around.
So if white people don't say anything, that's violence.
But also, white people are supposed to shut up and listen to black people.
Unfair Positions for Activists00:15:17
So it's basically like you are not allowed to say anything except agree with us.
And you're also not allowed to not say anything.
You can't even sit this one out.
And there's been a lot of things going on.
Like, did you see that soccer player got fired because his wife tweeted something?
I thought the thing with Drew Brees was pretty crazy.
This is, it really is, and I get a lot of this from your work.
You're writing about North Korea as well as in the new right.
There really is this like strain of totalitarian ideology that you have to control what other people say.
And whether or not you believe it in your heart, you have to say, you have to say the words.
You have to pretend you believe it in heart.
Really creeping me out.
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The founder of CrossFit retired because he said, we're not mourning for George Floyd because that's a white thing to do.
Give me one reason, right?
And he had to step down because of this.
He's not wrong, number one, that it's a white thing to do.
What it reminds me of is, you know, people, a lot of people, conservatives, were kind of flipping out and or rolling their eyes on Blackout Tuesday, and all of corporate America had a black square on their Instagram or on their Twitter.
And what I pointed out, which I don't think anyone listening to this is going to disagree with, it's like you don't want to be, it's not that they all care about, someone's like, oh, I want, I wish Amazon cared about Duncan Lemp as much as they cared about George Floyd.
And I said, they do.
Zero.
They do not care about George Floyd.
Don't get it twisted.
And I said, it's like in Russia where you didn't want to be the first one to stop applauding Stalin.
So if everyone's applauding, everyone's watching, hey, we're all doing this.
It costs you nothing to change your thing to a square.
You are making a point by not acknowledging Black Lives Matter.
What is wrong with you and your company?
So that's how it works.
So it's not at all a function that all of corporate America has taken the Kool-Aid to some extent.
It's not between right and left.
It's between this ideology and people who don't really care or don't feel the need to display they care.
I tweeted this out yesterday.
I go, it's very creepy.
I don't, I didn't say creepy.
I hate that word.
It's, it's interesting to notice how often members of the evangelical left feel the need to publicly tell strangers how much they like black people.
Like, I mean, seriously, you're going around, oh, black people, I love black.
It's like, really?
Like, why do you feel the need to tell you?
And let me tell you this.
If you're saying, you know, it's to change racism, I promise you, having worked with many and know many, that racists, when they see you say how much you like black people, aren't going to be like, huh, you know, maybe I should consider this liking black people thing.
It's a very phony and it's a very white thing to do.
So it's interesting to watch the dynamics.
I've also tweeted out, this episode is going to be a commercial for my Twitter, about Pride Month.
If you go to Times Square, it's rainbow flags everywhere.
And I said, it's only corporate America that can make sodomy and perversion seem downright boring.
Like, is there any, like, it's about men fucking each other.
It's about like getting high and orgies and all that stuff.
And then you see these billboards and you think it's about like two dudes holding hands and walking through a meadow.
They're not even holding hands because they can't even really, it's so, so in a sense, it's very interesting to see what happens when any movement gets co-opted by corporate forces because very quickly it changes its dynamic.
And I tweeted this out and I think we have the answer.
I said, who do you think is someone should do a compilation of how many times I mentioned my Twitter?
Who do you think they're going to cast as the face of Black Lives Matter?
Because it's not going to be someone from those ghetto neighborhoods.
It's going to be someone who toes the party line.
Stacey Abrams is looking for work.
It's probably going to be her.
And I just saw just today, LA Times had an article and I couldn't believe they're this stupid about it.
Where as America rallies to hear about Black Lives Matter, Don Lemon, you know, steps forward.
I mean, Don Lemon is basically one degree away from NWA.
I mean, it's just...
Don Lemon is whiter than either of us, for sure.
I mean, like, by the way, this is, this used to, at least when I was a kid, I grew up in Brooklyn.
This used to be a very common thing amongst black people is to like call other black people white who they didn't see as black.
And Don Lemon would have been called that all day long.
He's Carlton Brown.
I grew up in Brooklyn.
Yes.
He's literally Carlton Banks.
He is like...
But also gay.
Yes, right.
Even whiter than Carlton Banks.
Yes.
So, yeah, that part is fascinating to watch.
But there is something where you like, Look, Jordan Peterson used to say this, I remember I thought this was a really good point, is that he was like, you don't automatically take someone at their word when they tell you what their motives are.
So just because someone says, I'm in this because I care about trans people, or I'm in this because I care about black people, that doesn't mean that's really what their motives are.
I mean, if we just took people at their word, then North Korea is a people's republic, a democratic republic.
You know, I mean, like, that's so that's not fair.
And again, to echo the point you made before, they certainly don't take right-wing white people at their word when they tell you what they are.
So that's not accurate.
And he said, he said, well, look at the communists.
They claimed that what they were motivated by was their love of the working class and that they really cared about the proletariat.
But if you actually look at what they did, they seem, you don't really see too much evidence of love for the working class.
You see a whole lot of evidence of hatred for the bourgeoisie.
That certainly is real.
So, you know, you wonder a lot of times with all these people, because as you said, well, you're not really going to convince a racist that way.
You wonder if that's even entering into the equation.
Now, I don't think it's so much, you know, any, I don't think most of these people are motivated by an actual compassion to black people.
I think a lot of them are motivated by their hatred of the other side.
And this is a way to almost like touch base.
You know, here, my screen's black.
Now I'm safe.
I'm one of the good people.
And now I can join in on the mob hating the person who doesn't change their profile picture.
It just seems to be what's going on.
It's not about black people.
It's just this idea of black people because this is their part.
I had this quote about how, not on my Twitter, how for them, every Facebook update is a personal march on Selma.
If you're taught, you know, same with a lot of these Tea Party, you know, they were hearkening back to the, to a lesser extent, they didn't really believe that they were the revolutionary war soldiers, but they genuinely believe that they are marching on Selma and their lives are in danger.
And there's a quote from Eugene Lyons on a certain site that I won't mention from that book, The Red Decade, where he talks about all of these commies, you know, are anti-fascist when they're not in danger and when the need suits them and they can be at their cocktail parties.
So it's very much, that's the other thing I said.
I hit on this a lot in my work, and I really want to stress this to the listeners.
If they really cared about these groups, they'd be caring about them all the time.
But for some reason, George Floyd is the reason, sure.
But like, we all have to care about black people now.
What happened to trans people in the bathrooms?
What happened to the DREAMers?
Remember?
Like, we have to shut down this country because, and this is not a ridiculous argument.
You have a lot of people who haven't committed any crimes, who have jobs, who contributed to America.
They don't have any legal stability in terms of like being citizens.
This is an unfair position For them to be in.
We need to resolve this.
And the way to resolve it, in our opinion, is to let them stay here because they're net positive.
That makes a lot of sense.
Where'd they go?
Forgot about it.
We had COVID, right?
COVID is a deadly disease, transmission through proximity.
We have children concentration camps.
The term concentration camps comes because people are concentrated close together.
They're in close physical proximity.
Where were those kids?
Are those kids getting COVID?
Are we making sure they're planting social distancing?
They forgot about it.
So, you know, when I was talking to some alt-right people back in the process of writing this book and they were just complaining about whatever was Caitlin Jenner, I'm like, do you not understand that if Caitlin Jenner and trans people didn't exist, it would just be some other random group that they can use as a weapon to further their need of dominance.
And the way you know this is that progressivism, and both progressives and conservatives will tell you this, got its start in like the late 1890s, early 1900s by fighting off the gay subculture that was living in these cities because they thought it was degenerate and disgusting.
And whatever you think about gay people, the point is this claim that progressivism has always been about, you know, the minorities.
No, no, no, that's what they want you to believe.
And then you react against them and saying, oh, you like this group?
Well, screw you.
I'm going to hate this group.
You're still playing defense on their terms instead of calling them out on their bullcrap.
I had this tweet.
I said, why am I so obsessed with my Twitter?
What is going on?
This is very odd.
This is very odd.
But the point being, I said, who of these do you think is closest to a good person?
George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin, George Floyd, and Derek Chavin, right?
It's perfectly fine, although binary thinkers can handle this, to say all four of those people are bad people.
And with George Zimmerman, I don't even mean in that incident.
He's been involved in lots of other crap where it's like, okay, you're kind of an asshole.
So even if you regard what he did as justified and so on and so forth, you could still think, yeah, this guy's an ass.
So, but people can't wrap their heads around this.
And I don't want, just one more thing.
I don't want to live in a culture, and I would hope most people don't either, where bad people are killed in the street in public.
Yes.
And I think that, and I've seen a lot of people, even libertarians, I think, get getting confused about these types of, you know, like issues before, where it's almost like if you, you know, if there was like a bar fight and, you know, you were like, okay, well, who should be charged for assault or something like that?
And you were like, well, this guy's really shitty to his wife.
And you're like, yeah, okay, that has, that has no relevance on what happened in this bar fight.
Like, did he attack the other guy or was he attacked?
If he was attacked, I don't care about that.
I also, by the way, think that a lot of the, like, I think Ayan Rand got this wrong in the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
A lot of people will go, oh, well, whose side should we be on in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
They'll be like, well, look at Palestinian culture and look at the Israeli culture.
And you're like, that is not the question here.
Now, you can have those feelings and you can have strong opinions on them.
But the question is the conflict.
Who is the aggressor and who is initiating violence?
And I don't want to get sidetracked into a lot of people.
Here's a non-sidetrack that's a lot easier, which is the Confederacy, right?
You can easily say, truthfully, the conspiracy stood for evil things.
Does an evil group of states have the legal right to secede?
And people cannot wrap their heads around this.
That's a simple, it's a legal issue.
No, and this is how they slander people like myself and Tom Woods and Ron Paul.
Well, it'll be like, oh, you guys were obviously you love slavery because you're defending the Confederacy or something.
And it's like, well, look, I mean, constitutionally, yes, that's clearly what's going on here.
But you can say, hey, constitutionally, the North did not really have the right nor the moral right to declare war against a group of states for the crime of seceding, for the crime of wanting to be independent.
And to invade your own country and slaughter people by the hundreds of thousands for this non-crime is kind of fucked up.
Now, that can be true.
And you can also say slavery should have been abolished.
I mean, like, that's great too.
But, you know, of course, people, you know, don't like to get into that level.
There was a great argument someone made, which I hadn't thought of.
And I saw recently, where they made the point is if they let the South secede, then the Underground Railroad becomes a lot easier.
So instead of having to get to Canada, all you got to do is get to West Virginia and you're free.
And I'm like, that is, and I also think that with regard to Civil War, the fact that, you know, it's kind of like we won the war, but we lost the peace.
The fact that there was no transition or even intention of a transition of having some kind of racial harmony where your former slaves are now, you're supposed to treat them as equal and you're also the subjects of an invading, hostile organizing force.
I have a book on my shelf about the election of 1876, where the North basically said, screw you, black guys, you're on your own in the South and all hell broke loose.
That transition is something people don't like to talk about Reconstruction because it's complicated and nuanced.
Like, who's the good guys?
Who's the bad guys?
I mean, the black people, I think, are the good guys, obviously, but is it working for them in the medium and long run?
On the other hand, was there anything that was a better alternative?
These are all very complicated questions, but because we like to have our binary North good, South bad history, they're both bad in different ways.
Complicated Questions of Justice00:04:58
And it's easy to say that the South is worse.
But again, this is a very complicated situation.
What do you do when you have a population that was illiterate by law and was understood socially to be your complete subordinate?
And now you're expected as a southern prideful, pride culture person to be like, okay, this is my equal.
That's going to be very hard to pull off.
Very hard.
And it's very hard in general when things are not achieved through voluntary means to deal with the lingering resentments that come with that.
I mean, it's not as if the South realized slavery was wrong and abolished the institution.
They were forced by an invading army.
They were beaten into submission and forced and in brutal, brutal ways.
In many ways, warfare back then was far more brutal because it was more primitive.
And so, you know, you like it's, and, you know, I mean, I was talking about this, and it seems like quite oftentimes people who advocate these kind of forced solutions don't even think this stuff through.
But, you know, you really, I wonder how much racial, you know, tensions that exist today in 2020 exist because of all of these forced policies.
Like, you know, when the Democrats were advocating in this last election cycle, and a whole bunch of them were at least advocating reparations for slavery, you know, it's like, do any of you think to yourself, what do you think that's going to do for race relations in America?
Like, you really want all white people to see on their check where they're being taxed to pay for black people, to give to black people.
Like, you know, that may already happen disproportionately, but we're going to make it crystal clear for you.
This is your money and now we're giving it to black guys.
How do you think they're going to feel every time they see a black guy on welfare?
Every time they see a black guy with expensive sneakers who can't really afford them.
Like, you don't think this is just going to really inflame the existing problem?
And even if they're wrong, they still get to vote.
So, again, if your argument is, well, he doesn't have the right to think this, this is restitution, blah, blah, blah.
Well, good luck telling him that.
And now what happens?
Yeah, it's a real problem with people who believe in democracy.
Luckily, we're not in that group, but the same people who love democracy so much also think, you know, 40% of the country is Nazis or something like that.
You're like, all right, well, you're all for those Nazis getting a right to vote.
So watch out.
They don't have to convince that many more people.
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All right, let's get back into the show.
So another theme in your writing, in your books, and in your tweets, since that seems to be the focus of today's episode, is the quote that you've really made famous at this point that conservatism is progressivism, driving the speed limit.
That's also a big theme in the creation of the new right.
And that to me is a big part of it.
I mean, obviously, like the new right or the alt-right, they're clearly right, just in the title, they're rejecting the right, what has been the old, the old right, the conservatism ink, as they call it.
Rejecting Old Conservatism00:15:00
And I think a lot of it is because they just feel like, well, look, I mean, you don't advocate for us.
To me, it's always seemed like, you know, politics is like pro-wrestling.
Like they, you know, they claim to hate each other.
They're in front of the camera.
They're like, I'm going to beat the shit out of you and blah.
But afterward, they're going out.
They're grabbing drinks.
They're all friends.
They're kind of on the same page.
And it seems like it's always been since I've been alive.
The Republicans are there to lose.
They're there to put up a fight and then lose.
And the fight's all kind of a show.
And then they end up losing.
And eventually, the people who are like voting these Republicans in were like, well, fuck this.
We want someone who will fight.
And to me, that's really probably the major factor that got Trump elected.
Oh, yeah.
Like when the people never realize, you know, it's like you'll see these, these, you know, like, they'll bring like some preacher on to CNN and he's like, how can these evangelicals support Donald Trump?
He's not a Christian.
You know, he's just pretending.
He doesn't really care.
And they're like, yeah, no, they, they know that.
Evangelicals aren't fooled to think that this guy who lives.
Did you not read a lot of them are?
Okay, sure.
Some of them are.
Sure.
Fair enough.
But many of them know that this guy who's had three wives and does, they're not like convinced that he goes to church every Sunday.
But they think the other side hates their guts and wants them dead.
Correct.
And he's fighting that side and pissing them all off.
So they're like, okay, well, at least this guy's fighting.
Anyway, I was just thinking about this recently because as you've seen these mass riots, it's really an amazing.
you know, experience over the last few weeks where you could see a protest against the lockdowns that's completely peaceful and it's demonized as you're going to kill grandmothers.
And then you see a protest where they're looting, burning cities, beating people up, and that's excused.
It's, you know, it's really quite a stark contrast.
And then it would seem so simple for Republicans to point this out.
If nothing else, just kind of make fun of it and take the win.
It's like they won't take the win that's being handed to them.
And instead, you see my boy, Mitt Romney, marching saying Black Lives Matter and all this other stuff.
And it's really, it's just made me think about that.
It's like, man, Republicans are so quick to embrace the leftist narrative and sell out their own supporters.
It's really unbelievable.
That's not how I saw it exactly.
Mitt Romney is as close to the incarnation of corporate America as it is possible for a human being to be.
And what I do discuss in the book is how ideas reach the mainstream, right?
And what happens is you have people on the fringes.
And when you're in the middle, such as yourself, it's impossible to figure out because they're equidistant.
Am I talking to a visionary or am I talking to a lunatic?
They're both so removed from what I have been raised and believed and trained to accept as normal.
I don't really have the mental bandwidth for it.
And you see this a lot actually on Twitter.
When you talk to blue-pilled people and you present them with, let's suppose you're talking shit about Trump, but you're saying it in a way that they're not using arguments that they wouldn't be comfortable with, which is contradictory signals to them.
They'll say you're weird because they kind of mentally have to quarantine you until they're trained on how to perceive you correctly.
So you have these people at the fringes, and then you have like the early adopters who have their finger on the pulse, whether it's in music or whether it's in politics or whatever.
They take those ideas.
The cathedral wasn't original to me.
Menchus Mulbug is the one who came up with the cathedral.
He was a fringe figure.
He was writing on Blogspot, for Christ's sakes, popularize it to people who are kind of like outliers and looking for the next thing.
Then it becomes part of the common parlance.
Greg Gutfeld was talking about the cathedral.
He was quoting, he didn't use my name, but he actually had a tweet of mine.
He was just talking about it on the five on Fox.
And then corporate America sees this, consumes it, and I'm using this imagery very intentionally, excretes it out in a manner that which the average blue-pilled person can consume it and still feel safe.
And that's why, you know, it's in one way, it's a very dangerous thing for Black Lives Matter to be so co-opted by corporate America because a lot of blue-pilled people now will genuinely think that these concerns, well, the right people, it's got the attention of the right people.
They know what they're doing.
They're going to take care of it.
My work here is done.
Now, they're not wrong because if you're some blue-pilled suburban asshole, there's nothing you need to do anyway.
This isn't your problem.
And many of these problems are fallacious problems, not real problems to begin with.
And not everything has to be everyone's business.
But that is the process.
And Romney, of course, is the culmination being the ultimate corporation of just consuming everything and being like, yeah, I'm for this.
But when you asked him what, if you would ask Mitt Romney, what do you mean by Black Lives Matter?
He would give you the most Martin Luther King, you know, systemic, just double talk, corporate double talk, but would not have any real coherent analysis or any real insightful solutions.
Yeah, no, I think that's right.
It's funny as you say he is as close to a corporation as a person could be, and Mitt Romney is the one that corporations are people, my friend.
Like he's just trying to convince you that he's a person.
That was my tweet.
I said the difference between Mitt Romney and corporations is that corporations are people.
That's great.
Yeah, that's great.
A corporation's a person.
Yeah.
We should have a timer.
Can we add a timer?
We are setting a record for tweet references on this one.
So one of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately, along with the defund the police stuff, is that, you know, I'll be honest here, and I'm being honest as an anarchist, there is something about the idea of defunding the police that did, there's something about it that I find very intriguing, of course.
I think if done the right way would be a wonderful thing.
But it's, you know, when you're seeing mob violence and then people are talking about defunding the police, there's part of it that is a little bit scary.
And you almost go like, oh man, if this is done the wrong way, this could end up being really bad.
And actually, as now more, you know, like more tangible proposals are being put out there, it seems like what they're talking about is the wrong way, in fact.
And you could get, if they're talking about just really cutting funding and cutting numbers of police, it is quite possible, you know, that you could end up in a situation, much like with these riots, where cops are strong enough to push an old man to the ground when he's no threat to them, but they're not strong enough to deal with the looting and the violent crimes, the only ones that we care about being dealt with.
So that's a pretty big concern of mine.
But just in the bigger kind of picture, you know, I remember there was this one guy who's, I'm blanking on his name right now, but I believe he's a member of the part of the problem inner circle, and he was a member of Tom Wood's private Facebook group as well.
And he made this video that I thought was really, really great.
And he made a point that I've shared on the podcast before.
And he was talking about immigration.
And he was saying, look, if you're an anarchist, are we allowed to have an order in which we'd like to see things dissolved?
And the analogy that he gave was...
Right, right.
But so the analogy that he gave was, he said, let's say, you know, you were like in some country that's been completely disarmed, like England or something like that.
It's completely like there's no gun ownership has been allowed for generations.
And there are militias that hate England right outside of its borders.
And they say, okay, we're going to disband the military.
Now, as an anarchist, you could be for in theory disbanding the military, but are you allowed to say, first, we have to restore gun rights?
Like, we have to have an order in which we do this.
And I'm just kind of, you know, making the point that, you know, defunding the police, even as an anarchist, I think you can be like, I'd like to see a few things happen first.
Yeah, there's a lot of fatuous thinking where it's kind of like, you know, you're not allowed to have preferences among bad things.
Like people in the trade-offs, it's like they pretend they don't exist.
And it's like, or sometimes they'll be try to be too clever and they'll be like, well, which would you rather have?
Cancer AIDS, AIDS.
Like, this isn't hard.
Like, people, you try to make it a gimme.
It's very, very simple.
And, you know, that is a good example of like, okay, which would I rather have as police brutality?
People at random or the guys who play their music on the subway.
This isn't a hard choice, even within the context of anarchism.
I want to piggyback to build on something you said, which is even though I've been very, very white-pilled about this whole situation, I think a lot of Americans don't appreciate how little socialists value human life and how willing they are to, in the words of Ms. Rand, sacrifice entire nations in the service of their ideology.
There was a criminal, I forget his name, and I'm sure someone watching this knows.
And he became one of these cause celebs for Hollywood.
He went to jail for a long time for violent crime.
And they're always like, free this guy, free this guy, free this guy.
And the argument was, well, he only stole either $1.50 or $150, whatever.
And they're like, and for that, he's got life in jail, blah, blah, blah.
And then you read at the case, and it's like, it was an armed robbery.
And the reason he only stole that much is because that's what the guy had on him at the gas station he was robbing.
It's just completely factual, but not truthful stuff.
And if you did bring up things like, yeah, lots more people are getting murdered and raped in their homes and people don't feel secure in their person, that they'd be like, well, you know, we don't have police brutality anymore.
Sure, that is a factual thing, but you're dropping the entire context.
So yeah, as anarchists, we are opposed to the state.
But if that state is doing the number one worst thing, which is preventing me from being secure in my person and property, I don't care, you know, whether it's police or not is almost secondary because some police is keeping me helpless.
Some police is going to put me in jail if I have a handgun and try to protect my life and my family.
So yeah, maybe that police force is not there on the local level, but boy, there's a reason they call it the long arm of the law.
Right, right.
No, absolutely.
You know, I remember Hans Hermann Hoppe said in a speech.
Have you had him on your show?
You should have him on.
Malice is the only one who's gotten him.
Woods couldn't get, you got him before Woods.
That was just.
And I got him to sign my book to Michael.
I like you more than Tom.
Yeah, that literally, that counts for two debate wins in my book.
But so he was saying, and he gave this very controversial speech about the alt-right.
And he was, you know, somewhat, he was open to the idea that libertarians should work with them, at least to some degree, that basically our number one goal is to tear down the credibility of the press, the institutions, all of these things.
And that they're that, I mean, he did, he was critical of them in many ways, particularly their economics and their obsession with the kind of white stuff.
And he was like, oh, it's, you know, he said, you know, he was critical of Richard Spencer and some other people.
But one of the things he said that I thought was a really interesting point, however you feel about the speech in general, was that he basically said that and CAPS have worked out to meticulous detail this really well thought out philosophy.
They've thought of all of these different hypotheticals and take on all these.
But one of the things that we really don't have a great answer to is how do we get from here to there?
And after you've figured out the philosophy, at least to a reasonable degree, you realize that that is kind of the pressing question.
Like, how do we get from here to there?
And then his other question was, how do we maintain it once we're there?
That's where the physical removal stuff comes in.
There was a great essay by Lenin, which he was very famous for before he became Lenin.
And it was called, What is to be done?
And that really is like, okay, we got it.
Now what?
That is the question everyone needs to ask.
I agree.
Yeah.
And that is one of the things that this defund the police movement kind of seemed to expose and make me think about a little bit more like, okay, yeah, I'm concerned about this plan for transition, but really, I must be honest, I don't know that I have a great plan for a transition.
I know that getting there would be better than being here.
But it is, you know, it's kind of hard to imagine a painless transition.
And I don't know.
I mean, like, do you, do you think there's like a legitimate shot that we could see a peaceful anarchist society in our lifetime?
And what do you think of like, what would the transition look like?
Yes, I do.
I do think that that could happen.
And I'll explain that in a second.
I think we also need to not forget that this is a very golden opportunity because now in intellectual circles, and I just mean marginally intellectual, there is going to be a lot of think pieces about what do alternatives to the police look like.
And that is going to be very thought-provoking for people all across the political spectrum.
And that is totally tearing a hole in the Overton window.
Now, a lot of these articles are going to be complete bullcrap, or they're going to basically be doubling down on the police or whatever they are.
But the point is to have such central issues as minarchism, you know, the basis of, I think that was the consensus everywhere about politics, to have people be able to have these conversations within the Oberton window, I think that is a really, really big deal.
Look at it this way.
It was ridiculous for a long time to even suggest ending the draft.
I mean, without the draft, if we can't have a country come together to fight in a foreign enemy, what really unites us as Americans?
This is only used in extreme cases.
What about Pearl Harbor?
What about the Civil War?
Embracing Peaceful Coexistence00:09:25
We can't not have this.
I mean, right away, it was completely an obscenity to suggest this.
Oh, my God.
You know who wants this?
It's the commies and this.
Yeah, this is what Stalin wants.
He wants, he's got a draft and it became the law.
Now no one other than Charles Wrangel, maybe 15 years ago, is advocating for its return.
So to have something like this in the common parlance is great.
Now the transition, and why, first of all, why I think it's possible in our lifetime?
Because censorship, and I can hear heads exploding right now, has been solved in our lifetime.
And by censorship, I mean it is impossible for me to write a book that you can't read.
There is no way for that book to be destroyed.
It could be sent anywhere.
I talk about this in my book.
You can send it anywhere at the speed of light.
You can make infinite copies for free.
It can't be destroyed back in the day.
You just got to burn 100 and then this book is gone.
The question of anarchism is the only reason, to me, in my opinion, the biggest hindrance of anarchism is the fact that we're made out of meat.
So, you know, at the very last resort, your people can come to my house, take my meat, put me in a cage, and then it's like, hey, A is A, cool story.
See you in 20 years.
And there's nothing I can do.
If it gets to a point where human beings are physically capable of very quickly exiting their geographic location, I don't know what that would mean, whether it's, who knows.
That would be an enormous step forward in reducing the power of the state because that is, at the end of the day, their last resort, their ability to incarcerate you at their whim.
Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes a lot of sense.
And the transition, I think it's not going to be hard to have America increasingly self-segregate ideologically.
I think a lot of conservatives are going to start toying with the idea of having a more neighborhood watch, more armed society.
Oh, this is what you guys want?
No cops.
Okay.
Everyone's going to have a gun.
And me and you are sitting back being like, oh, yes, please.
So I think there's going to be, as our national discourse collapses, and I'm doing everything I can to make that happen.
There are going to be many more experiments on the local and on the international level.
And that brings me great hope because truth and lies are very asymmetric in terms of persuasion.
It's a lot easier to persuade people who aren't intelligent that this system works than this doesn't.
If you just look at the two of them and there's food and safety here and there's no food and I'm on fire here.
It's like, okay, I'm going with this one.
Right, right.
There really is something so fascinating about the defund the police hashtag movement, whatever.
And I was saying this the other day, that it's really this thing that I think upon first glance, lefties tend to look at that and say, I love the way that sounds.
And right-wing people look at that and go, that's the most batshit, crazy idea on the planet.
However, once you unpack the implications a little bit more, I think there's actually a lot more for the right to embrace about it and a lot for the left to be terrified of about it.
Because, you know, when you start to, if you really think like truly defunding the police, what that would look like, it's like, okay, well, the Second Amendment has been fully restored.
There are no more laws against guns.
Good luck enforcing your minimum wage laws and your EPA restrictions and all of these different, like, I mean, all of this over-regulation goes away.
Communities are empowered.
Like all of these things happen.
And so to the right, there's actually a lot that you have that you're offered in Defund the Police.
And to the left, it's like you lose your whole game, which is controlling everybody else.
So it's fun to watch them unpack this.
To me, what the most disturbing element of the last couple of weeks was the boomer con reaction when it's like George Floyd, who is a horrible human being, you know, was part of a home invasion.
That's the one we know about.
You probably don't do just one home invasion.
He probably did other many crimes.
And like, oh, he was high when he was killed by the cops and blah, blah, blah.
Now, I understand, and this is something I hate, that there's this conservative need to kind of knee-jerk react to whatever is being put forward by the left and be like, oh, yeah, well, I'm going to call him Bruce Jenner because I'm the hero.
It's like you're still letting them dictate the terms of the debate.
There was a little bit of a window, and I don't think it's closed, where there is a possibility for conservatives to talk to these communities and have some fruitful dialogue.
And this would be the death knell for the blue pill.
Because if there's any dialogue where it's just like, you know what, I don't agree with you at all.
I don't agree with you at all.
I don't think you're the devil.
I just think you're an asshole.
But that's a huge step forward.
For Rush Limbaugh to go on the breakfast club with Charlemagne, and I didn't hear it, but I'm sure they were perfectly respectable toward each other.
And for a lot, and for the black community to be like, yeah, you know what?
It's on us to come up with our own solutions and figure this shit out.
That's really bad.
And the counter to that, which is really funny, is people like Candace Owens, the Ayn Rand of our day, saying like, oh, yeah, well, George Floyd isn't a hero.
You know, he had Methodist system and he had been arrested several times.
It's like, this is not, all you're doing is getting your own boomer cons to kind of dig in their heels and you're missing an opportunity.
I'm not sitting here and saying that 50% of black people are going to vote for Trump or we're ever going to vote for Trump.
I'm also not saying if that happened, America would be saved or the black communities would be better.
I'm saying when you have any sort of discourse that does an end run outside of the cathedral, that is only a good thing at the very least for lessening unnecessary tensions.
If you're sit down and talking to lefties and they, it's the same thing with gay rights.
When more and more people came out and now it's your uncle or your teacher who's gay, it's a lot harder to be totally homophobic.
It's like, oh, wait a minute, I know that guy.
I don't like him, but like he's not a monster.
And the same thing's like, okay, I talked to some conservatives.
I don't think they're making sense, but they're not Hitler and they have some ideology thinking to what they're saying.
That's really bad for an organization whose role it is to train people what to say and to fight their ability to think critically.
Yes, I think you really hit the nail on the head.
And it's interesting because it's not that the outcome we're looking for is everybody to be united.
What we're looking for is peaceful coexistence.
Yes, yes.
And that's what you end up getting when you really, you know, like, and by the way, and we have it all the time.
Like all the areas where the state is not involved pretty much, we have peaceful coexistence.
I mean, there's people of fucking different religions.
Like that's a huge difference in the way they look at the world and their philosophy.
And we all just kind of accept that's fine.
You can feel that way.
I don't have to go to a mosque and you don't have to come to a temple or whatever.
I mean, I don't go to temple, but, you know, hypothetically, whatever the example is.
And there's the way, you know, it's like when you, when you realize that the, you know, like, okay, this person might be wrong.
They might be an asshole, but they're not Hitler.
They're not, you can realize that you maybe don't have to be best friends with them, but you also don't have to be at war with them.
Yeah.
There's just, it's just not necessary.
And that's one of the things that I've been thinking about throughout all of this is like, it's unbelievable how much the cathedral thrives off pitting people against each other and convincing them they have to be at war with each other and through the state.
We have to be at war with you by making sure Trump doesn't win, but Biden wins.
You know, like this, this is always how we have to dominate the other half.
And when you realize the truth is the Antifa kid who wants to throw a brick through a window or the neo-Nazi who wants to rid the country of other races are an incredibly tiny percentage of the population.
We're not a racist country as many in the protests will insist.
There are certainly policies from our government that fuck over black people and fuck over white people.
But it's not as if most people in this country are really vicious, nasty racists.
It's not as if most people on the left really want to see people in gulags and things like that.
Really, we could just peacefully coexist and go our separate ways.
Yeah, their new party line is, as people have started figuring out, if you're not speaking out about racism, you're racist too.
And it's like, you know, if the worst thing that happened to black people in the South were like white people just didn't care and like, go do whatever you want, that would be a lot better than I'm going to go to your home, drag you out, dismember you and hang you in front of your family and in front of your part of your neighborhood in this town to make sure everyone flees overnight.
A slight improvement.
Yeah, but again, the whole binary thing is if you're not panicking and hysterical, you're the enemy.
The Cost of Constant Panic00:00:55
And it's very hard to maintain a constant state of panic and hysteria unless this is your faith, unless this is your kind of testimony that you have to be living 24-7.
And you and I know many, very many religious people in the traditional Christian sense.
And there's many different kinds.
And there's some who have this quiet dignity and they like Christ and so on and so forth.
And there's some who it's got to be Jesus 24-7.
And even Jesus is like, listen, have some fish, have some bread, a glass of wine, just give a five.