Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

July 24, 2018 - Project Camelot

01:28:53

BEN EMLYN JONES RE HELEN DUNCAN - PSYCHIC MEDIUM

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Hi, everyone. everyone.
	I'm Carrie Cassidy from Project Camelot and sorry for the late start here.
	We've just had all kinds of technical things go on.
	So at any rate, I'm here with Ben Emlyn Jones and I'm very happy to have him on the show.
	There's such a great amount of material that he's been covering and he's an investigator and a filmmaker and he's made a documentary on a very fascinating woman It's called Helen Duncan.
	And as I wrote below in the chat, basically, her story is that she was framed and thrown in prison by Ian Fleming, with the help of Ian Fleming and Churchill during World War II, because they didn't want her to reveal Their plans for D-Day.
	That's ostensibly the reason.
	And she was a very excellent psychic and a medium.
	So I've also got her granddaughter.
	I think she's her granddaughter, but we'll clarify that with Ben.
	And she is standing by to come on the show partway through to talk about her grandmother briefly as well.
	But Ben really did an amazing documentary.
	And Ben, you want to say hello to everyone?
	Hello, everybody.
	Thanks for tuning in and listening, and it's great to be on the show.
	So thanks for inviting me on, Carrie.
	Absolutely.
	So if you don't mind, could you just give yourself a background a little more elaborate than the one I just gave you?
	Sure.
	Well, my name is Ben Endling-Jones, and I am a person who, like yourself, has come to realize that the world is not what most people think it is.
	It's not what we've been generally yet to believe it is.
	And certain issues...
	To do with the paranormal, the UFO phenomenon, government cover-ups and related subjects, far from being insane and crazy and fringe, are actually real.
	And they're not only real, they're probably the most important subjects in the entire world.
	And as a result of this, I have set up my little website, Hospital Portals Against the New World Order, and it's expanded from there.
	As you said, I have a YouTube channel.
	I make documentaries like the Helen Duncan documentary and several others.
	I've made several about Helen Duncan and many other subjects, so that's what I do.
	Okay, so...
	Sorry, I was just getting my tea.
	So, anyway, what I'd like to do is talk about your documentary, how you got into...
	To the idea of actually doing a documentary specifically on Helen Duncan and also give some background as to your understanding of who she was and anything you can add to that.
	Helen Duncan is an amazing person and her story combines the paranormal side of things and the government cover-up side of things, the imperfect proportions.
	It was also a terrible injustice that was done to somebody and this combination of factors really is the kind of thing that draws me in.
	The subject of what I'm going to talk about, the principal subject, actually happened a long time ago.
	It happened 74 years ago but it's still an open case and I still think it's very very important and it's very revealing about how this world works and especially our relationship to those What you might call the elite or the powers that be.
	But Helen was born in 1898 in Callender, which is in Perthshire, Scotland.
	And she is a spiritualist medium.
	From a very young age, she knew she had this amazing ability.
	And she did several things like, for example, when she was a young girl, a man who lived in the town where she lived went missing.
	And so the police and some local people went out on a search party and they took Helen with them and it was a very, very worrying situation because it was very cold in the middle of winter.
	There was a heavy snowfall.
	And using techniques that we today call remote viewing, Helen Duncan managed to find this man and he was rescued before it was too late.
	And as she grew older and she grew up, she joined that special class of medium, a very, very rare talent that mediums have.
	Which is manifestation.
	Manifestation is where a medium does more than just what most mediums do, which is go to a spiritualist church and say, yes, I have a message here from somebody over here, someone called John, is anyone there?
	Not that there's anything wrong with that.
	I don't dismiss that.
	I think it's something I take seriously and respect.
	But Helen could do more than that.
	Helen Duncan could actually manifest physical objects By exuding ectoplasm.
	Ectoplasm is a substance that's exuded from the medium's body, which forms into shapes, very often into the shape of an actual person who has passed away.
	And Helen did this, she did it her whole life, and she was one of the most powerful mediums who's ever lived.
	Right, absolutely.
	Now, in terms of the story and the documentary, why were you so propelled to actually make your documentary?
	I wanted to cover the Helen Duncan story for the reasons I've explained.
	It drew me in, it fascinated me and it enthralled me.
	I felt very passionate about what was going on here, about what had happened, about what happened to Helen and about how this really It was so revealing.
	It told the story that I think is just so important.
	So I decided I would do a documentary.
	I'd make a documentary by visiting the locations, the prime locations where the story of her life took place, especially the witchcraft trial of 1944, which I think is the center point of her whole life.
	And I did so.
	I visited the places where this happened and I made my documentary, which It could have been technically better, but I had made an updated version of Scents, which I'll bet that.
	But I was especially...
	You actually, I'm sorry, but I was wondering, you know, it is interesting because it is a very unconventional shooting style, and obviously...
	I don't know if you actually had a cameraman or not.
	So it was almost as if you were almost a stream of consciousness style.
	And that actually makes it very appealing because you seem quite taken with the story and the way you convey it.
	The filming, your enthusiasm and your kind of off-the-top way of speaking was very, I thought, compelling.
	And so I wonder if I had wondered whether you had a background yourself in mediumship or had members of the family or what your exposure was to that kind of material before you ever started the documentary.
	Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it, Kerry.
	Thanks.
	And I hope Other people did as well.
	I don't, to my knowledge, have any family links to anything like this.
	No one in my family is a spiritualist.
	No one in my family has any interest in spiritualism apart from me.
	My father and my brother and my daughter are all skeptics.
	I'm getting in from three generations.
	So I'm pretty much a loner in terms of my family.
	I don't know actually what caused me to take this path which they haven't.
	I have many friends of course in the UFO fraternity or in the community and in the what's called conspiracy theory community and the spiritualist community.
	But this is one of the big questions of my life exactly about why I Became what I am.
	And to the point, I have sort of dedicated my life to it.
	Right.
	All right.
	So you decided to go to the site of where she actually, you know, set up her shop, so to speak, and all of that, which is also a sort of unconventional way of doing things because other people were already living in those spaces, right?
	That's right.
	But they let you in.
	That was what was so fascinating.
	I'm really grateful, actually, to the...
	To the owners of the location, the 301 Jewelers in Portsmouth.
	They actually have been in contact with several people, including Maggie Hahn, who we're going to speak to later, hopefully.
	I just wrote to them and I said, can you tell me about the Master Temple that is above the shop?
	And they just explained, the Master Temple no longer exists.
	It's now a...
	If someone just lives there, it's a lounge in somebody's flat.
	So I said, would it be all right for me to come and film?
	I'm making a documentary about Helen Duncan And the witchcraft trial.
	They said, sure.
	So I went to Portsmouth with my camera.
	I don't have a camera, but it's just me.
	And I filmed inside what was the master temple.
	And it was really amazing to be in that room.
	And even some of the furniture, well, one piece of furniture, which was there in the 1940s, is still there now.
	It's just a footstool, but it's still there.
	It's quite something.
	Changed a lot, obviously, because in those days, there was the cabinet.
	With the curtain around it and the rows of seats for the spectators.
	If you ever go to one of these events, it's pretty similar today.
	The people who ran it, the shop was a chemist shop in those days called Mr.
	and Mrs.
	Homer.
	They ran this spiritualist temple, the master temple, the spiritualist church, privately in their own home as a small business on the side.
	Now, I don't know if it's because it's Britain or what, and there's sort of a tradition of...
	You know, in Britain, sort of, I guess, sort of psychic ability, you know, the stone circles, the emphasis on the occult permeates, I think, British culture.
	And so I don't know if it's because of that.
	But the people who you did go visit the sites were very open to having you film this kind of unconventional film.
	And I'm just wondering what your take is on that.
	In other words, was it because of British culture that they were particularly receptive to that?
	Because I can imagine in other countries, maybe even America, where they might not be so interested in having somebody come inside their home and reveal that there used to be a psychic medium who lived there, et cetera, et cetera.
	So you know what I'm saying?
	Yeah, it depends where you go in the world, I think, and even within a single country.
	For example, when I went to...
	It was quite difficult to find out exactly where it was, but I did manage to find out where Helen Duncan performed her last seance, and this was in Nottingham.
	And I went there, and the people...
	It was very, very different.
	The people there were...
	I actually didn't...
	I didn't go and knock on the door because the people at the local spiritual church told me that they don't want to be disturbed, so I just filmed in the street outside.
	And the people there, they came out and they told me to go away, basically.
	And I said, no, this is a public highway.
	And they knew I was there.
	So it varies where you go.
	And I know that in some parts of the United States, I think people are more open to this than other parts, from what I gathered.
	I know there's a big spiritualist tradition in San Francisco, because I watched a documentary about it, about Gordon Smith, the medium from Scotland who went there, but other parts made it different.
	Exactly.
	No doubt about it.
	So, in terms of your overall approach to this subject, you know, because I don't know what your chronology is, I don't know if you made this a long time ago and then you kind of progressed since then and got into the UFO subject, or if you'd already been in the UFO subject and then stumbled on this story.
	I kind of dived into everything at once.
	Once I realised that things were not as they seemed to be.
	And when I was a child, I had a moderate interest in UFOs.
	There was actually a TV programme called Project UFO, which is a drama series that was on at the time.
	And I read a couple of...
	There was a children's book about UFOs my parents once gave me.
	But I never really gained a major interest, I think, until, perhaps I was a teenager, I read a bit more about it.
	But it might have been a little bit later that I... Maybe a few years later that I suddenly...
	I came across several streams of information and one of those is David Icke.
	I came across a video by David Icke and a book and that, it's fair to say, changed my life.
	It's not to say that I endorse everything that David Icke says.
	It's not...
	I'm not suggesting I agree with everything he says.
	I certainly don't.
	But I found...
	The book, it was the biggest secret.
	I actually watched the video first, and then I bought the book The Biggest Secret, and there were several other books of his that I bought.
	And that really led me down the rabbit hole, so to speak, as the saying goes.
	I took the red pill.
	Yes, absolutely.
	David has covered excellent material and We interviewed him many years ago, you know, and I highly respect his work as well.
	So in terms of doing what I was kind of getting at is, again, this sort of chronology of how you got into doing a documentary about Helen Duncan.
	And whether or not along with it came any interest, let's say, in World War II, in the whole, you know, I don't know if you ever got into the Ian Fleming story.
	And whether or not you'd gone down that rabbit hole and found out some of the unconventional story behind World War II. In other words, were you interested in World War II or is it only because you were interested in how a psychic was treated?
	Because for me, the reason I'm actually having you talk about this on my show is that I think there are parallels to today when You could say that people in the UFO sector are quite psychic and that we are the sort of precursors of what will come after us.
	People accepting the notion that, you know, we are not alone, that we have ET presence here and always have had and so on.
	In other words, in a certain sense, she, of course, this goes back centuries.
	There have been a tradition of psychics and mediums, etc., etc., Proven, correct, reincarnation, and so on and so forth.
	But a lot of that is all ignored.
	So when I look at these days, I see that there are a lot of people that are still treating these subjects as if they are, you know, forbidden, like they don't exist, or they're questionable, when in reality they've been proven through the centuries over and over and over again to be quite true.
	So what I'm kind of saying here is there are parallels to our time, to the way she was treated.
	And I'm wondering if you delved into that story, because you tell the story, but I'm also wondering if you kind of went beneath the surface a little more and found out, was that the only reason?
	Was it Because of D-Day, that they didn't want her to find out what they were doing and put it out there.
	Because it's very interesting that they didn't trust her.
	So it's a deeper story in that sense.
	So I'm just wondering your thoughts on all of that.
	I touch on this in the film at the end of the documentary.
	But to begin with, I've always been interested in history.
	It's always something that's fascinated me.
	Especially here in Britain, it's a major part of our culture in the modern world.
	I did look into the background of some of the people from the Helen Duncan story, for example, Commander Ian Fleming, the author of James Bond, and it turns out that he of all of them has the most interesting backstory and I think he is probably the...
	there's no evidence of this precisely, but it's the circumstantial evidence points to him being almost a pivotal figure in this because It was Fleming who was involved, basically, in the D-Day organization.
	And this included the seeding of disinformation towards the enemy.
	And there's another book that's been written about this, which is a title I can't remember and I've not read, but I've looked into it.
	And he took a dead body, he and his team, and put authentic-looking fake documents on it and left it to be found by the enemy.
	Indicating that there'd be an invasion of Europe from the Mediterranean first.
	And of course, the invasion of Europe was going to come from the north.
	It was going to come from Britain to Normandy, as we know from history.
	So that really does fascinate me.
	And I think that's, I think, that's almost a sense is your answer to why this happened.
	I mean, why they didn't trust her, that's a good question.
	Because why didn't they just, and I've spoken to Maggie about this, and this is what the family have often said.
	Couldn't they just simply get her to sign the Official Secrets Act, they don't have to tell her why, and just ask her not to do any sayances, not to do any services, just for a few months.
	And they could pay her off, they could pay her compensating money, they could actually pay her more than she was earning from her work, and it would cost less than the actual trial.
	As Winston Churchill pointed out, it was the cost of this to the state.
	So why didn't they?
	Why didn't they just trust her?
	Like most people in the country, she was behind the war effort.
	She was a patriotic woman.
	So why didn't they do that?
	And I think there's no clear answer to that question.
	But I do think perhaps there was more at stake even than this.
	And it could be the reason why they wouldn't let Helen Duncan perform a seance in court.
	Because during the witchcraft trial, she actually pinned all her hopes or her solicitor did.
	In a sense, pinned her hopes on this, that she would actually prove she was a genuine medium by performing a seance in court.
	And the judge wouldn't let her do it.
	She said, no, you're not doing this.
	Yeah, that's another piece of the puzzle, which is really strange.
	But the question is, did, for example, Again, Ian Fleming and or Churchill, did his people sort of communicate ahead of time with the judge and say, don't allow her to do this?
	In other words, you know, we don't know.
	The Prime Minister Winston Churchill was not in on this.
	He actually wrote to the Home Secretary just saying, demanding, but what's going on?
	What's this witchcraft trying to keep reading about in the newspapers?
	And words to that effect.
	And he said, let me know what the cost this was.
	What was the cost to the state?
	Couldn't the work of the courts be better used and things like this?
	So the Prime Minister Winston Churchill was not in on it.
	But I do believe it looks like there was some kind of cabal involved when you look at the background of the people.
	For example, John Cyril Nord Casey was the prosecuting counsel.
	He is head of Section B19 at MI5, which is a human intelligence agency.
	So he's the kind of person who would be behind any Any plot to spy on Helen Duncan.
	And we know that someone else, another intelligence officer called Brigadier Roy Firebrace, specifically recommended that Helen Duncan be watched.
	We have a letter in existence, his daughter has published it, showing that he did recommend to the government that they keep an eye on Helen Duncan.
	The judge, the recorder of London, was the kind of person who was very sentimental about anything to do with the Navy, the Royal Navy.
	And this did involve the sinking of ships, you see, because they wanted to keep the sinking of several ships quiet because of the war effort.
	This is what brought Helen Duncan to their attention.
	And so, in a sense, the very fact that this case was escalated to the Old Bailey, the Central Criminal Court of London, which is almost unheard of.
	You'd have a comparatively minor charge and a minor offence dragged to this level It indicates how important it was to the state that Helen Dunn could be put away.
	This is not something that could be happened unless it was planned.
	It couldn't happen by accident.
	Well, I quite agree with you, but I have to say in terms of my understanding is that Ian Fleming reported to Churchill and that they were trying to hide D-Day and D-Day, Churchill was in charge of D-Day, really.
	And I don't know if you've read this book.
	It's called OPJB. It's a very old book.
	Actually, it's reversed now and I put it on the screen this way, so I don't know why that happens, but it does.
	Anyway, I highly recommend it if you haven't because it really does reveal Fleming's involvement, very deeply involved in D-Day.
	And behind the scenes and also some things going on in World War II and being orchestrated by the British so that he would not have taken any actions had it not been for his direct orders from what this book says,
	you know, if you want to believe the book, was Churchill and And I forget the man who worked with him, but he is sort of almost a partner in the intelligence world who also was orchestrating all of this, what was going on.
	And so there is a direct involvement there.
	At least it went, you know, a direct line between Churchill and Fleming.
	And therefore, if Fleming was involved, now I am suspicious also, knowing the Brits and knowing their history, and of Churchill actually having an issue with something being in the courts to do with psychic ability or mediumship.
	Again, I'm thinking that it's not so much that he didn't believe in it, as he didn't want them delving into it in the public.
	Because he considered this part of the secret sort of skills of, you know, of what would be, in essence, agents, even back in those days.
	Because this is during the time when the Nazis were doing a lot of investigation into these areas with Maria Orsic and all of this.
	And I have to say that Churchill cannot have been blind to the sort of Black, satanic side of the Nazis and many other things that were going on during those times.
	Of course, I have other evidence because I've got a witness, Captain Mark Richards, who I interview in prison.
	You may be familiar with his name.
	And his wife.
	Yes, Joanne is on the circuit talking about his story.
	But I, as I say, have gone to the prison and interviewed him actually eight times.
	And he has family that were in Britain, and actually specifically his father, who was known as the Dutchman.
	And so that the, what you might say, the occult, he as a boy was going to parties on Churchill's estates.
	And there was a heavy duty, this is not widely known, but it is part of his work, revealing that the whole ET thing was known by Churchill and members at that time.
	Top secret, way above top secret, really.
	So what I'm saying is that what Churchill was trying to do is shut down inquiry into these areas.
	It's kind of like trying to commandeer Under a certain heading of secrecy.
	So this is where my interest also goes, because I really find your investigation fascinating, and I'm also interested in the fact that they tried to stop you from doing this documentary.
	Isn't that right?
	Well, there was the people in the church, in the church, Nottingham did.
	Yeah, they didn't want me to do it.
	Now, as far as the book you mentioned, I've not read it, but it sounds fascinating.
	Yes.
	And if it's true, what it says about Winston Churchill, and obviously he was involved, and the memo to the Home Secretary might have been a piece of disinformation.
	Now, the reason behind it, now, Winston Churchill himself is a strange character, and he was involved in several secret societies, the Freemasons, things like that, and that...
	Even as a small child, he obviously had some kind of mental difficulties, mental problems and things like that.
	Now, the idea that he doesn't want people delving in to these spiritual arts is very persuasive.
	It makes sense.
	I actually touched on this in the film, about why Helen Duncan was forbidden to actually perform in court.
	Now, you would think, from a legal standpoint, That it's unthinkable that she wouldn't be allowed to prove herself innocent using this method, because she was charged under the Witchcraft Act, this was the prosecution, the Witchcraft Act of 1735, which states, I think it's the render, I can't remember the actual text, it's in old language, but it's the rendering the pretense of conjuring spirits.
	So basically what you call fake mediumship in today's world.
	And to actually do something real in a controlled situation in court would say, well, look, legally it's basically saying you've accused me of being a fake medium.
	I'm going to prove to you I'm not by doing some real medium shit.
	Exactly.
	And for the judge to refuse that is really extraordinary.
	Yeah, it's extraordinary.
	It's totally unjust.
	And it's very revealing about what was going on, not just for the fact that they wanted Helen in jail because of D-Day, but also the fact that they I don't think the people who rule this world want us to know that when we die, we continue.
	We have a soul which continues.
	I mean, we're allowed to believe that as long as we believe in one of the off-the-shelf religions.
	But we're given that choice.
	So you either have God that judges you, if you're a Muslim or Christian or something like that, or you're a sceptical materialist, which means there is no afterlife, there is no soul, and Your physical body is all you are and when that ceases to function you cease to exist.
	In a sense we're given the choice between this kind of dual dialectic and that's the only thing permitted in the public domain.
	What Helen Duncan and other mediums like her demonstrate is there is a third option and this I think is where the state will step in or whatever power you like will step in.
	I think this is why that really you know extreme religious people and Very devout sceptics will forget their differences and stand shoulder to shoulder and unite in condemnation of people like, well, people like us.
	People like Helen.
	I think that's very revealing.
	It's what David Ike calls the phony bone of contention.
	That's Richard E. Hall.
	Sorry, I can't remember what David calls him.
	Okay, well, there is another aspect to this that people may not have thought of that I do look at, which has to do with Sean David Morton.
	I know this is going to sound extraordinary, but Sean David Morton is a psychic and has been proving this for many, many years.
	Publicly.
	And, of course, a very public person.
	And he got thrown in jail supposedly for overstepping certain investment laws or whatever associated with the SEC inquiry into some money.
	And I was actually involved in...
	A group that, and I lost money, but I didn't blame Sean because I know sort of the machinations of what happened behind the scenes and so on.
	But I have to say that there were people that did, and I'm not sure whether that contributed to his being, him and his wife being thrown in prison.
	But I do know that he's writing a book that is disclosing the UFO story really historically, going back through who was running the Area 51 who was running the scene here on planet Earth in terms of the ET situation and so on.
	And that this man, the story goes that there's a whistleblower who gave, had his lawyer give all his material to Sean and said, Please turn this into fiction and don't reveal who I really am.
	And then Sean wrote these three books called Sands of Time.
	So what Sean, on top of being psychic, is doing, he's also working with this whistleblower, in essence, behind the scenes.
	And he has been thrown in jail.
	So what's fascinating about all of that is the link-up with what happened to Helen in a similar time in which You know, all of this is very pent up.
	There's a lot of talk of war behind the scenes here and the financial crash and this and that and the other.
	And you have to look at also what was being revealed in the sands of time and the fact that he was due to actually meet with the whistleblower.
	From what I understand.
	Now, the whistleblower supposedly was dying, and he's no longer alive, but somehow Sean was supposed to get more information.
	Now, I don't know if he did or he didn't, but then he got thrown in jail, so obviously he can't meet with this person, whoever it was that was a connection to the whistleblower or the whistleblower themselves, who might not have died, but instead...
	Time traveled.
	I know it sounds outrageous, but this is the story and he has been thrown in jail.
	And, you know, so you could say it's a very mundane reason or you could actually take a look at the life of Helen Duncan and you could see parallels to what is happening to at least one of our colleagues at this time.
	In our sector that we're in and the potential, you know, how it is, you know, the saying goes, you know, they came from my neighbor and I said nothing and so and so and eventually they came from me.
	So I believe that this is a syndrome that we have to watch and that they're targeted individuals are also along these lines where they're being disbelieved by the greater society.
	And yet eventually all of this can be proved true.
	Number one.
	But number two, a lot of people have suffered over the centuries for their abilities, specifically witches and so on.
	Now, a lot of them have gone under the radar and all of that.
	But it is fascinating to me that Helen Duncan would have sort of junctured with history at such a time that was so crucial.
	And then that her trajectory would have put her in such jeopardy.
	And then didn't she die like six months after that?
	No, she did.
	She actually was released from jail in September of 1944.
	And she continued to practice.
	She died 12 years later.
	Oh, really?
	Okay.
	I didn't realize that.
	Just after the event in Nottingham when I went to film.
	Right.
	You know, I was really sorry to hear what happened to Sean because I know Sean.
	I've interviewed him on my show.
	And I know that, I didn't believe for one moment, there's the official story about what happened to him in the mainstream media.
	And I haven't read his books yet, but I will do.
	But it is a strikingly odd situation.
	So many people, to do the things that we do, end up in jail.
	I'm just thinking Michael Shrimpton, I'm thinking James Caswell.
	That's right.
	I'm thinking a whole list of people who somehow end up in jail for one reason or another on rather Dodgy grounds, I would say, especially the length of sentences that some of them get.
	And the fact that Helen Duncan was prosecuted under, got the maximum sentence of nine months in jail for what she did, which was really nothing.
	They didn't, they couldn't prove anything against her.
	And so I just, I just wonder if there is a connection here.
	There really is.
	And that you've meant to bring up the witchcraft situation.
	The idea of witchcraft, of course, goes back a long way.
	But it's interesting that speaking specifically of my own country, there was a situation where if you lived here through the Middle Ages, you lived in the age of, before the age of reason, you had to believe in Christianity in its most fundamental basis.
	And there was no alternative to that.
	And if you were somebody, what you call a pagan, Cunning person, you know, things like that.
	The word witch itself comes from an old English word that means wise woman.
	If you're one of these people, you could literally lose your life.
	I mean, even if having red hair or being left-handed could be enough to get you on the stake in a fire.
	They'll burn you or they'll drown you in a ducking stool and things like this.
	And when the Age of Reason came along, the Enlightenment and the Renaissance and science began, this could have been a wonderful moment for us because we could have actually We could have had a society based on logic and rationality rather than superstition and the dogma of the church.
	But instead, the science and logic mutated into its own form of dogma.
	And I think it's expressed in its most extreme form by people like James Randi and the skeptic movement.
	Right.
	So in a sense, these are two sides of the same coin.
	And then people keep getting persecuted, jailed.
	Almost anyone who comes out with any alternative to this society, this degenerate society, somehow finds their life getting very, very difficult and very, very short, I might add.
	Well, right.
	And, you know, there's also...
	There are people that have had insights into various things.
	And of course, you know, any kind of innovation, scientific innovation or otherwise, these individuals also get targeted, it seems to me, and then chosen and thrown in prison on various sort of trumped up charges.
	That goes for also people like Anonymous, people who are Sort of hacking and like Gary McKinnon, for example, and trying to get the truth out through that action.
	It's actually an act of protest.
	Of social consciousness, of trying to change the system by revealing the inequities in the system.
	And of course, this is what whistleblowers are also doing.
	And yet, a lot of whistleblowers are having great personal troubles.
	They end up having no money.
	They can't get hired, et cetera, et cetera.
	Once they have become whistleblowers, they and their families are in dire straits and often threatened as well.
	And free energy activists, for example, and I have a lot of background in this area in terms of knowing You know, through intelligence sources.
	And I just had Paul Price on my show who's created a warp drive, written a paper that has gotten a lot of notice of the intelligence agencies several years ago.
	And he's talking all about that and how the CIA has been trying to shut him up, how they've been questioning his sanity, trying to track him, you know, black helicopters, the whole thing.
	So it These kinds of areas are not, you know, there's not like psychics over here and free energy activists over there.
	Actually, there's actually a link up between what you might say are People that approach reality from an alternative standpoint.
	And that's a pretty big sort of bucket, if you will.
	And then how the system, how the state deals with you when you try to color outside the lines, as I call it.
	I think that Helen Duncan was such a person.
	Now, I wonder if you have studied her actual cases.
	You do talk about some of it on your documentary, but did you kind of go back into her history and study some of the cases?
	I don't know if you had the opportunity to interview other people who were interacting with her back at that time, because it's quite a few years later.
	Unfortunately, the only person who directly Was involved with Helen is Maggie.
	Maggie was two years old, unfortunately, when her grandmother died.
	Right.
	But I have looked at the cases.
	There's a lot of documents on, for example, online.
	Now, I know that, and also in the book, there's several books you can read.
	For example, Helen Duncan, The Mystery Show Trial by Robert Hartley, which I specifically recommend the most.
	There's many others.
	There's Hallie Schnell by Arthur Crossley, there's many many other people who've written biographies of Helen.
	Now in 1930 she was actually involved in a psychical study.
	It didn't go very well because there were two rival groups of people, two rival operations in London trying to analyze Helen and do experiments with Helen and Helen was caught up in the middle of essentially But politics between the two, which was a shame.
	This resulted in some false information being published about her.
	I know that the people who attended the Master Temple had a lot of respect for her.
	There was Ann Potter, for example, who managed to communicate with her own mother who passed away and stood up in court and defended Helen, saying quite clearly, it was definitely my mother I encountered through Helen Duncan.
	She came close to me.
	I even kissed her face.
	She had moles on her face, which I remember, and things like that.
	So there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that there's a whole list of people who...
	there's a whole list of various people who could and were, I think, very close to her.
	Her reputation, I think, says an awful lot because she was very sought after.
	She spent her whole life traveling everywhere, performing in various spiritual churches.
	That's what she did.
	That was her job.
	So she was going all over the place.
	She was married, wasn't she?
	And did her husband help her in her work?
	I can't remember what that relationship was.
	She was married to a man who did, who was very supportive of it.
	Now, I know what the skeptics will say about this because both Helen and her husband were very ill and they couldn't really do a conventional job.
	And Helen basically was the breadwinner of the family.
	And I personally don't think there's anything wrong with this.
	I don't believe this is any reason we should be suspicious because she used her abilities to earn a living the same way as someone who perhaps is trained in carpentry or plumbing or any other skill.
	Yeah, I do agree with that.
	I think the skeptics really expect her to just charge for nothing and then bring her family up in poverty.
	Which they would have done.
	She had a large family, lots of children, lots of grandchildren, as I know one of them.
	So the family were very, very close-knit.
	They were very bad from what I hear.
	I met a few of them at a conference where I spoke about this.
	And I know Maggie quite well.
	And from what I gathered, they loved her very much, and they still do.
	Fascinating.
	And she was very unusual in the sense that she was doing this sort of strange thing.
	I don't quite understand it, really.
	You know, was her way of performing conventional at that time or was it unconventional at that time?
	It was quite unusual to have a powerful manifestation medium.
	This is quite rare.
	According to a friend of mine in Australia, Victor Zamet, There's only about six people today in the world who can actually manifest, and I've met one of them up in the northeast of England quite recently, and that's another one like Helen.
	But generally speaking, I was quite lucky to actually encounter her.
	The majority of mediums are clairvoyant, and they can actually communicate.
	Some are physical in terms, some of them can generate noises, some of them trance.
	In other words, they can actually Allow a spirit to take over their body.
	That, again, can be done.
	But the manifestation is extremely rare.
	So Helen Duncan was an exception.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	Now, in terms of your sort of, I don't know where you go with this, but you've done other kinds of work that's related to this, but also going off in different areas.
	Do you want to talk a little bit about the other sort of subjects you cover?
	Yeah, well you mentioned Gary McKinnon, and in fact, Gary McKinnon, it was actually the first Project Camelot interview I ever watched was the one with Gary McKinnon, which is one of your early ones.
	And that was actually very influential on me.
	I actually, I think that's where I got a true grasp, firstly, of the legal situation, because Gary, of course, is very similar to Helen Duncan in many ways.
	He's receiving a completely, he was in risk of Of receiving an extremely excessive sentence for the alleged offenses he committed.
	Right.
	And what is the...
	I think the reason for that was the information he was giving out, which is related to the UFO subject.
	But also, the UFO subject is intimately connected with the issue of free energy.
	And that's another thing I actually am interested in.
	And this is to do with the What UFOs actually are?
	What drives them?
	What kind of power plant do they use?
	What kind of propulsion system?
	It's not SO unleaded four star.
	It's something far more exotic.
	And it's quite likely, I believe, that the deep state, whatever you want to call it, the cabal, they are aware of this.
	Through various crash retrieval stories you hear, I think some of them are genuine.
	And also for human inventors, I mean, you mentioned free energy inventors, you know, people like Well, they didn't jail him, they actually killed him.
	He was actually poisoned, I believe.
	But there's several other people.
	There's Eugene Maloff who, well, he fell off a train when he was drunk, I believe, which is an extremely unusual thing to happen.
	Well, also John Mack and Wilhelm Reich are two people that died.
	Well, Wilhelm Reich was actually killed.
	I think they say Tesla died of natural causes, but I'm suspicious of that.
	But yeah, so John Mack, there is a fascinating story that's associated with that.
	And I guess everyone knows who John Mack was, but he was in England, stepped off a curb and was hit by a car, as I recall.
	At any rate, someone did an investigation and In England, this sounds completely bizarre and totally unbelievable, but there were persons named John Mack that all died on the exact same day.
	Something like six.
	Someone did an investigation.
	So what it would appear, and just offhand, I mean, just in a strange thing, you'd have to really do your investigation of all of this.
	But I was told this.
	And I think what happens is that it's possible they were hits put out on the name John Mack.
	Yeah.
	You know, and apparently I think they would have died of different sort of causes.
	But it makes one wonder what the hell is going on if something like that can happen, a synchronicity, what I would call a synchronicity, happening like that unless it's literally orchestrated.
	It seems just too much of a coincidence.
	I don't think this is the Terminator killing all the Sarah Connors he knows.
	Well, it's a question, isn't it?
	Yeah, but it sounds to me more like what the people behind or whatever they are behind this conspiracy, what they like to do, which is they like to tease us.
	They like to drop hints.
	They like to almost gloat about what they do.
	Yes.
	And that they do it through various...
	This is one of the ways they do it, I think.
	Yes.
	And it's a great show.
	And John Mack was a brilliant man.
	I mean, I'm just halfway through reading his abduction book.
	And I think he, more than anyone else, along with both Hopkins and several other people, I think we're on the point of bringing the UFO abduction situation into the mainstream, where it belongs, where he's desperately trying to keep it out.
	I know several people who have contact experiences, and they all have attention from the government, all of them.
	Right.
	Without exception.
	Now, in your case, I sort of asked you this, but maybe I misunderstood when you were talking about in the documentary, but I got the impression that you actually...
	We're told not to pursue the story by other people in your life, like at the time when you were thinking about pursuing it or something.
	Is that not true?
	Somebody...
	I can't remember who it was, actually, but there was a...
	It was more than one of them, I think, actually did say that this is something not to get involved in.
	They didn't actually warn me or threaten me or anything like that.
	They just said, maybe this is not a good idea.
	I don't know if that's significant or not.
	It is.
	It is to me.
	You know, these kinds of things that don't overlook this kind of thing because it's so interesting.
	It interests me because it's so many years later that they wouldn't want to reveal this, which of course makes me all the more interested in it.
	Because again, the parallels to our times.
	And to the way they also stigmatize a conspiracy theorist, you know, per se, as being, they're trying to classify that person as being crazy.
	They've actually, although they have done some tests, apparently, on some of us, and found out that we have higher IQs than the normal people out there.
	So that should, you know, kind of allay any sort of skepticism right then and there, but it doesn't, of course.
	And there are so many aspects to this.
	I guess there's also various religions.
	There are some religions that don't allow for this kinds of psychic perception, certainly not mediumship.
	And the life after death question is always a very important part of the mediumship aspect.
	So, you know, it gets into that as well.
	But in terms of your own Sort of trajectory.
	So you were warned slightly somehow in various ways against doing this, but you continued to pursue it, correct?
	Yeah, I didn't consider it very serious at the time.
	I can't even remember who these people were.
	And it wasn't a warning as such.
	It's just several people thought this wasn't something I should pursue.
	The difference, I think, is the people in Nottingham At the actual location of the Spiritual Church, where Helen Duncan actually performed her final seance in October of 1956.
	There was a police raid there, similar to the one in Portsmouth all those years earlier, when she was first arrested.
	Only this time she was badly injured.
	And the police wouldn't even allow her to go to hospital.
	Arthur Crossley says that there was a very ugly scene where they wanted to search her body for props.
	Which would involve the very undignified strip search at the scene where she suffered burns to her body.
	Because if you disturb a medium in trance, a manifestation medium in trance, the ectoplasm can actually cause burns.
	And Helen Dunkel was burned.
	She died just two months later.
	She went back to her home in Scotland to recover, but she never recovered completely from that incident.
	And she died.
	And I believe that the cause of death was that raid.
	Right.
	Now, but you went back to Nottingham and then they didn't want you to film there.
	Isn't that right?
	Yeah, it did.
	I mean, you can actually see on the films, you can actually hear the voice of the person who comes out and says, who just says, look, I don't know why you're doing this.
	Can you please turn the camera around?
	And I respond that I'm on a public highway and I can film whatever that I like.
	Right.
	I didn't break the Data Protection Act or anything like that.
	I didn't reveal the address of the place I was filming, but I'm quite entitled to film on a public highway if I wish.
	Hmm.
	And they really didn't like it.
	And the people at the church who told me where to go, who gave me the location, actually did say, you know, don't try knocking on the door.
	They won't have anything to do with you.
	So the people who live there now, I believe it's the same family who were there back in those days.
	Even after all these years, they still are very alarmed by the whole thing.
	And it's obviously haunts them quite considerably.
	Which means, it says an awful lot about perhaps what happened at the time.
	Whether there was something that needs to be suspicious that perhaps Helen was deliberately harmed.
	Exactly, yes.
	Now do you get, of course this is something you'd have to have sort of your own intuition about, but did you have a feeling that this so-called spiritualist church Then and possibly now, I think you're saying it continued to this time, has sort of satanic leanings?
	Oh, the West Bridgeford one?
	I guess.
	No, Nottingham, I think it is.
	Oh, that's right, yeah.
	Well, I mean, the actual, from what I gather, it's the same group, it's the same institution that has moved, it's basically moved to a different address.
	It's the West Bridgeford Spiritualist Church.
	And I actually found they were very nice people there.
	I attended a couple of their events.
	I actually had a partner who actually lived nearby and she and I used to attend these events together and we knew the people at Westbridge for quite well.
	They were nice people.
	They had a They've got a little Helen Duncan Museum there.
	Okay, that's the first site.
	But the site where she...
	Wasn't this called Nottingham?
	Am I getting it confused?
	Yes, it's Nottingham, England.
	Okay.
	I can't remember the name of the actual location.
	It was in someone's private house.
	It's similar to the Master Temple.
	They had a room in their house, which they converted into a seance room spiritualist church.
	The same way that Mr.
	and Mrs.
	Homer in Portsmouth converted one of their rooms into the Master Temple.
	And this is where Helen was actually performing.
	I guess what I'm getting at is...
	Oh, shoot.
	I'll have to stop that.
	Is the Nottingham site that you were told not to...
	You couldn't film at.
	Was that associated with...
	I'm not sure...
	Do you mean the one in the final scene of the film where I'm outside the location where Helen did her last seance?
	Do you mean that location?
	Yes.
	Right, yeah, I'm...
	I didn't get good vibes off the place, obviously.
	I mean, even when I was approaching it, the people at the church said, you know, don't try knocking on the door.
	So they were sort of warning you?
	Yeah, they didn't say anything about satanic faculties or anything like that.
	They just said that they're people who are private and they're people who are not welcoming to anyone who wants to talk about this subject.
	Interesting.
	So when I approached the venue, I knew that I felt outside the house, and I was always preparing myself for some kind of trouble.
	So was there any...
	Now, I don't know timing-wise, so this question might be a little strange, but she was during World War II. So was Crowley alive during then, do you happen to know?
	Yeah.
	Crowley died in 1947, so he was alive.
	And he was active during World War II and indeed he moved into some social circles which included Ian Fleming and Brigadier Roy Firebrace who have come up in this discussion already.
	Right.
	So the plot thickens then.
	Crowley, it seems to be centered on the Society of Psychical Research.
	Crowley I think was a member.
	I know that some Firebrace and Fleming were members of the SPR Crowley, I think, I don't know exactly what his relationship was to the SPR, but he seemed to know a lot of people at the SPR. Crowley was, of course, an occultist.
	He wasn't necessarily a medium or a psychic investigator.
	He was an occultist.
	He called himself the Beast 666.
	So it says he was a very different kind of person.
	Well, I'm not so sure he was that different.
	If you delve into his work at all, you do find out that, you know, he was aware of a lot of that stuff and he was working in certain aspects, if you want to call it that, as an occultist.
	And then, you know, in the area of manifestation, you know, because a black magician will call into this world various entities and so on, some which will generate ectoplasm, etc.
	And there's also the side that has to do with, you know, life after death and certainly psychic ability, intuition and seeing the future.
	And also Crowley did have interaction with what appears to be gray from the drawing, a gray alien.
	So, you know, in other words, if you start drawing these connections, kind of reminds me of Kathy Morgan, what she does with her, you know, the connections between her family lines and all the Illuminati and this and that.
	In other words, you can start diagramming and see where these things are all connecting.
	And in the person of Ian Fleming, they do connect, which is really quite fascinating.
	It's not only through the SBR, through the psychic and Absolutely.
	So you see these things are not isolated from each other either.
	They weren't then, and they certainly aren't now.
	Of course, remote viewing is very...
	People, they say they shut the program down, but of course that's a lie, and they're very heavily involved in remote viewing at this time, the military and various intelligence agencies, etc.
	So all of this is still in play.
	You could even call it a battle going through the ages type of thing.
	And, you know, I'm going to look over at the chat.
	I don't know if we can get Maggie on or whether she's still in there.
	So...
	Maggie, if you're here, I know that she's there and she was just agreeing with me.
	So if you'd like, I can bring her on.
	I was going to try to do it.
	And now Maggie, the easiest thing will be is if you can come on Skype, I can call you and add you to the call via Skype.
	But if you can't do Skype, type into the chat and let me know, and then I'll just call you on the phone and we'll try to bring you in that way.
	So if you could type into the chat and let me know if you're able to use Skype, and then I'll look for you on my Skype and see if you're there.
	So Maggie is in the chat for those of you that are interested and has been chatting along, it looks like.
	So we're going to wait and see if she shows up here.
	And then in the meanwhile, what I'll do is stop this and put the banner on here for the moment while I try to connect these two calls.
	If this is going to work out.
	So Now, Ben, before you, while you did, while we're waiting to see if we can connect you guys, did you interview Maggie, like, behind the scenes to give you some other information at all?
	Or was this some, you met her somehow afterwards?
	How did that happen?
	I met her after I produced the documentary.
	I was actually doing a live show in Nottingham at the Truth Juice Nottingham, all about Helen.
	And, uh, Maggie got in touch with me and said, you're talking about my grandmother?
	And I said, yeah.
	And she asked me a few questions.
	She was a little bit nervous and suspicious at first because I know she says that a lot of people misuse and abuse this situation.
	But after all, it didn't take me long to reassure her that I was sincere.
	And I wanted to do only to do good.
	I didn't want to make money or anything like that.
	I only wanted to do good.
	And she said, are you being paid to do this talk?
	And I said, no.
	I'm just getting my expenses covered, that's all.
	Right, okay.
	It looks like maybe the Skype connection isn't going to work, so I have to get my cell phone so we can try to bring her on the call here.
	I don't know whether this will work well or not, but we'll try it.
	I hope you can, because she's really interesting to talk to.
	Yeah, I think she's quite a fascinating woman.
	As it happens, there's a link up here as well with Eddie Page, which is so bizarre because I think she's the one who connected me to Eddie Page.
	I know Eddie Page, yeah.
	And what she said, I'm going to get the verification from her, is that he actually, she connected me to Eddie Page because her grandmother told her She seems to be in touch with her in the other world, so to speak.
	Oh, she is, yeah.
	Yeah, and she said she's the one who told her about Eddie Page.
	So that's kind of fascinating.
	So let me get her here.
	According to my app here, she's here.
	She's actually been added to the call.
	Yeah, I did.
	Hi Maggie, how are you?
	Hi Maggie.
	Hi.
	Am I on the mic?
	Yes, you're on the show here.
	Your voice is...
	Oh, okay.
	Anyway.
	Hi everybody.
	Hi Maggie.
	Hi sweetheart, how are you?
	I'm alright thanks.
	How are you feeling?
	Right.
	It would interfere if you try to watch the show.
	So it's probably better if you don't.
	But you can watch later.
	Yeah.
	And see how you did.
	But it's lovely to have you here on the show.
	And I was just saying that could you explain how you got me connected with Eddie Page?
	Was it because you're still in touch with your grandmother?
	Is that right?
	My grandmother is one of my guys.
	All right.
	I've researched my grandmother.
	Here's what happened.
	I stayed away from...
	You've got to understand.
	My grandmother was killed in 1956.
	And I do...
	Well, I really do believe the authorities...
	Played a big part in her death.
	So I stayed away from this stuff for many, many, many years.
	I wanted nothing to do with spiritualism.
	I wanted nothing to do with any of it.
	And what happened is I just kept having an overwhelming sense that I had to look into my grandmother.
	I had to find out the truth.
	And I said, okay, you know what, I'll look into it, let the cards fall where they make.
	If she was a fraud, I could accept that.
	If she was genuine, I can accept that.
	I've spent 30 years researching her life, and she was genuine.
	We were brought up as kids that she had a gift from God.
	So getting to Eddie Page, here's what's happened.
	As I was in the UK, I'm British, even though I don't sound it, I am definitely, I'm Scottish.
	And 2013, I was back home.
	I sat with a medium.
	My grandmother came through.
	And my grandmother gave me some personal messages.
	And she said to me, you're going to find out where you come from.
	And I thought, what does she mean by that?
	I had no idea.
	I thought it had to...
	Honestly, I thought it had to...
	because I had been researching our family tree, so that's what I thought it had to do with.
	And didn't pay much attention to it.
	And then, in 2015, I met Eddie.
	And so I spent some time with Eddie.
	I've reviewed all the documents.
	Actually, I'm the one that's responsible for Eddie.
	And I do say my brother because I carry the same bloodline as him.
	For getting his message out there.
	Because I said, look...
	I don't care if anybody believes us, believes you or not, but we have to tell people, we've got to tell the world what's going on.
	And I mean, you've seen the documents, I've seen the documents.
	Right.
	And so that's how I got connected with Eddie, because of my grandmother.
	Okay, now, did your grandmother just simply say, I mean, did she connect you with Eddie?
	How did that, I mean, did she use his name?
	How did you meet him?
	No, she didn't.
	The message she said is, you're going to find out where you came from.
	And I sent things.
	And...
	And I researched things.
	And I had actually met Eddie.
	Eddie was in a UFO group.
	And I looked at what he was saying and I went, oh my goodness.
	And so I connected with him.
	I went over and spent a day with him and then I spent a week with him.
	Just pouring through all of these documents and just going, oh my god, I can't believe what's been done.
	Honestly, I was shocked.
	I was angry and was like, how dare they do this cover-up?
	You know, I think the American people have a right to know and I think the world has a right to know.
	And I think that my grandmother connected me with Eddie Because she knows that I'm one to kind of get things done.
	I didn't know how I was going to do it, but I was going to do it.
	Right.
	And I had Daniel, you know, I spoke to Daniel, and Daniel said to me, you're one of us.
	And I said, what do you mean I'm one of you?
	And he said, you're one of us.
	And I said, okay.
	And I'll tell you, I had some blood work done.
	I said, could you please check my blood type?
	And so I had my blood checked, and sure enough, I'm one of them.
	Right.
	And so, at some point, you got in touch with me.
	Was this your own idea, or was this something that Eddie brought to you?
	No, it was my idea.
	Okay.
	Because I watch you, I follow you, and I know that you're a good person.
	And...
	And I trust you.
	Because I trust Ben.
	And so, you know, Ben has also seen the documents.
	You've seen the documents because it was like, we've got to get this, you know, look, I'm not here to convince anybody Whether Eddie is genuine or not.
	I'm only here to...
	I guess, you know what?
	I'm being used as a catalyst to get him out there.
	Sure.
	And...
	So, back to your grandmother, because she's such a fascinating woman.
	Did you research her story in terms of what happened to her when she was thrown in prison around World War II and all of that?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah, listen, my grandmother was born, oh gosh, she was born in 1897, and my great-grandparents were very, very religious.
	They were Presbyterians.
	And my grandmother, she, as a child, had the ability to see, she could see deceased spirits.
	My great-grandson, her mother, said, you cannot ever talk about this.
	It was just so frowned upon back in those days.
	When she met my grandfather, my grandfather believed in, we call it, in the UK, you know, we call it spiritualism.
	He researched it.
	He used to bring her little trinkets.
	He would go buy her little trinkets.
	And she'd hold them.
	And she could tell them exactly who made it, where it was made, how much he paid for it.
	And he helped to develop her mediumship.
	In the 30s, in the 1930s, and she had a lot of, oh God, Dr.
	Rusk, In Scotland, she researched her.
	She would, I'll tell you, I would not, here's what they did to my grandmother when she sat.
	They searched, she would be script searched.
	They searched every orifice.
	On her body, and I mean every orifice on her body to see if she had stashed anything.
	I would never go through what my grandmother went through.
	I just think, how humiliating.
	I sent me a picture.
	She was what we call, today they call it a physical medium.
	I thought she was a materialization medium.
	So she would go into trance and ectoplasm would run from her body and materialize your loved ones.
	And so your loved ones, you could see them, you could catch them.
	If you got permission and you could talk to them.
	And it didn't matter, let's say you had somebody who spoke French that was coming through.
	They'd speak in French.
	Now my grandmother didn't know French or any other foreign language.
	She was just a plain, simple woman.
	Scottish woman.
	What happened, here's what happened.
	The HMS Barham, she was actually in Portsmouth.
	A sailor materialized.
	His mom was in the city.
	And she didn't know he had passed over.
	Wow.
	So she had contacted the British Admiralty.
	And see, they weren't releasing the stuff right away.
	Because the British wanted the Germans, you know, they wanted the Germans to think we had more ships out there than we had.
	So, that was in, I'd say, 1941.
	Then, in Scotland, Brigadier Firebrace, he was actually a spiritualist.
	I mean, Lord Dowling.
	He was a spiritualist.
	There were many, many people that were in the British Admiralty that were spiritualists.
	Brigadier Firebrace was the head of National Security for Scotland.
	He sat in, I don't call them seances, I was brought up in the city.
	He sat in a sitting, and my grandmother's guy is Albert Stewart.
	I refer to him as my Uncle Albert.
	My Uncle Albert told him, we've lost a great warship.
	Pretty dear Firebrace went back to his office, made a phone call.
	And they said, no, we haven't lost anything.
	I think about four hours later, he got the call that we had lost the food.
	I know that they spoke.
	I know that the government did, well, according to Brigadier Firebrace, and that is on public record, and I sent that to you.
	That they did speak to my grandmother.
	She was definitely a threat.
	Do I think Flemmie had something to do with it?
	You better believe I did.
	Guy Lidding, he kept a diary.
	The home office, right?
	So they couldn't try her for being a fraud.
	So they came up with the witchcraft act of 1735.
	Now, the Witchcraft Act, it used to read, Conjuration of Evil Spirits.
	They took the word evil out, so she was guilty before she even went to trial under U.K. Ross.
	Right.
	She was sentenced to nine months in prison.
	And let me tell you, my grandmother, while she was in prison, just wanted to die.
	I have a letter that she wrote to my granddad, talking about that she just wanted to die.
	Because they put her in Holloway Prison, which is, they finally just closed it a few years ago.
	One of the worst prisons in England.
	And she wasn't treated very, very kindly in there.
	Because I have a diary.
	I have a lot of stuff that hasn't been released to the public.
	One day it will be.
	I have released some things that people have where they've written to me.
	People that sat with my grandmother.
	Because I figured, you know what, that is, you know, that's their words.
	They sat with her.
	I never sat with my grandmother.
	I was just a child baby when she was killed.
	But I can tell you, I'm 63.
	It has caused me a tremendous amount of pain when I think about what happened to my grandma.
	I mean, what the British government did to my grandmother and to my family should never, ever be done to any family.
	And so I made a decision.
	My son was 14 and I said, somebody's got to speak up for grandma.
	Because there was a lot of controversy around her mediumship.
	I'm not here, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to debate whether she was genuine or not.
	I know she was genuine.
	I've got too much research that tells me she was genuine.
	Let me get my train of thought.
	Well, thank you.
	That's wonderful, you know, to hear your testimony there, and I'm sure that Ben appreciates it as well.
	Ben, is there anything that maybe you could help here with Maggie in terms of anything that you think that maybe she or you haven't talked about that perhaps she could bring to the attention of the audience?
	Yeah, there's a campaign...
	To pardon Helen Duncan going on at the moment.
	It's a whole website set up at the moment and it's getting close to success.
	So the aim is to get a posthumous pardon for Helen Duncan.
	And if you just Google Helen Duncan's name, you'll find a website.
	The reason is because of Alan Turing.
	He's another guy from World War II. He's actually one of the most important people in World War II. He took from the British war effort.
	He's the greatest hero.
	He was a computer whiz kit and he designed the computers which were way beyond anything that ever existed before and to the point where they managed to decipher the famous Enigma code the Germans were using.
	That's right.
	And what happened with him was he's very very tragic and it's very shameful because rather than being a hero he was locked in jail and in 1952 he was jailed under the Le Bruchere amendments, the sodomy laws, which basically was homosexuality.
	It was considered a crime.
	And he was offered freedom.
	He was offered to be allowed out of jail, but he had to undergo medical treatment, which destroyed his physical and mental health.
	And in 1954, he committed suicide.
	Now, there's been a campaign ever since then to actually pardon Alan Turing.
	And in 2008, the Prime Minister Gordon Brown apologized, an official government apology.
	And then again, quite recently, actually, it was just last year, He was issued an official full pardon.
	This means that not only were the charges against him lifted, but this has set a common law precedent, which means everybody else prosecuted under the Le Bruchet Amendment can now apply for pardons themselves.
	There's been an absolute onslaught in the courts at the moment trying to get people pardoned, who were simply gay, which in the modern world is considered completely acceptable.
	It's a person's private life and everything like that.
	Now, the thing about this precedent means that anyone else who was prosecuted under a law, which was then repealed, because the Le Brucherois Amendment was repealed in 1967 in England and Wales, in 1981 in Scotland, this precedent means that other people who've been prosecuted under laws, which then are repealed, could also apply for pardons.
	Helen Duncan was prosecuted the Witchcraft Act of 1735, as Maggie's just explained, This was repealed in 1951, which means there's no reason why she can't get a pardon too, a posthumous pardon.
	I know she's passed away, but it means her name will be cleared, her criminal record will be absolved.
	What's the website called Maggie?
	HelenDuncan.org That's it.
	And, you know what, if any, you know, I was in the chat room, and some people go, oh, you know, she worshipped the demons.
	My grandmother was very, very, very religious.
	The Church of England, let me, I will say this, in 1937, the Archbishop of Canterbury commissioned a report on spiritualism.
	He appointed ten people to look at it.
	Seven out of the ten agreed that, you know, the church should start to embrace it.
	They had, I think it was 1967, they finally released it.
	But a lot of people, even in the UK, are not aware of it.
	You can contact...
	Their library, like I did, and I paid, I don't know, $12 for the actual report.
	So even the Church of England acknowledged there is something to spiritualism.
	Very good.
	That's very good to hear that that's happened.
	Yeah, I mean, they're not going to talk about it openly.
	I can't publish the document, but I'm willing to email the document.
	Because I think the more people that, you know, and I'm not, I'm more spiritual.
	I believe in God.
	I believe in Jesus.
	But I also believe that, you know what, we all have the abilities to communicate with, you want to call it God or higher self, source, whatever you want to call it.
	Call it.
	We all have those abilities in us.
	You know what?
	They've been dumbed down.
	I do want to say, in 1956, in Nottingham, then I did go to the house.
	I think I told you about that.
	They weren't very receptive to me.
	No.
	I mean, here's what killed my grandmother.
	Within spiritual, it's very sad, is within spiritualism, a lot of mediums, it's like they compete with one another.
	And when I do talks on my grandmother, and my message is, you know what, if you're a medium, they're shaping you no jealousy.
	If somebody is doing good, You know, we should be supporting that person, not backstabbing them, not bringing them down.
	That's what drives me insane about a lot of the spiritualist community is, you know, we need to be supporting one another and there should be no room for jealousy.
	I mean, if you're doing good, I think it's fantastic you're doing good.
	That is a message that I always get from my grandmother.
	In 1956, they raided her.
	She was in France.
	And let me say, when you're in France, you have no knowledge of what is coming through you.
	My grandmother would go completely out.
	Her guy would take control of her body.
	And he'd be the one to speak and be the one to lead the city.
	And they pulled away.
	At Timmons' house, they pulled away.
	There was actually a policeman and a policewoman sitting in the city.
	They were a plant.
	When they raided the house, they turned on They turned a flashlight on my grandmother.
	It burned her breath.
	It burned her stomach.
	She had third degree burns.
	Um, she went into shock.
	The police just wanted to, um, they just wanted to search her.
	Uh, Gert Hamilton, who was with her, because towards the end of my grandmother's life, she couldn't see.
	She was a diabetic.
	And, um, And she couldn't see, so she always had somebody go with her.
	And Gert kept saying, you've got to get a doctor, you've got to get a doctor.
	They finally called the doctor.
	The doctor said she was in shock.
	She stayed at Jimmins' house for a day or so.
	Got her back to Edinburgh, where my grandparents lived, and she was hospitalized.
	The hospital said, there's nothing more we can do for her.
	Uh, she, um, she went home and was veteran.
	The doctor, back there, the doctor would come in, um, and see her, and, um, uh, my Uncle Albert had told, I mean, we, my,
	my grandfather, we all knew, they knew that she was going to pass, um, So, Maggie, when you talk about you think that they killed her, do you think that the raid was planned in order to get at her in that sense?
	Yeah, and I have contacted, I've contacted Nottingham.
	And I said, I want the records.
	And what they said is, there's no records.
	And I said, excuse me?
	And I've worked with criminal justice.
	So I know if you're calling a raid, you're going to have a record of it.
	And especially if you had to call a doctor out.
	And, I mean, they've written to me saying they've got no records because there was no charges.
	Oh yeah, I know, I most definitely, they definitely contributed to my grandmother's I have no doubt in my mind.

▲