Charles Haywood and hosts dismantle the "Big Lie" about January 6th, reframing it as an electoral justice protest rather than an attack on democracy. They contrast the single death of Ashley Babbitt with the higher tolls of the 2020 George Floyd riots, arguing mainstream media has manufactured a harmful national mythos akin to post-WWII narratives about Hitler. Advocating for "ethical triage," they demand full pardons for participants, restitution for imprisoned protesters, and severe punishment for officials like Liz Cheney, whom they accuse of suborning perjury. Ultimately, the discussion calls for restoring freedom of association through biblical justice principles while reclaiming Christian nationalism to counter perceived totalitarian prosecution tactics. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Why We Need Five Star Reviews00:03:39
Leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform.
I get it.
It's annoying.
Everybody asks, but I'm going to tell you why.
When you give us a positive review, what that does is it triggers the algorithm so that our podcast shows up on more people's news feeds.
You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.
We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.
Merry January 6th, everyone.
Welcome back to Right Response Ministries.
Today is January 6th, and it marks the fourth year since the horrific, for those who are just listening, I've got quotation marks there, attack on our sacred democracy.
And while most of you watching probably agree that the pearl clutching and drama from the mainstream media regarding January 6th is a little over the top, I have a few questions.
Three, to be precise.
Number one, Would you be willing to go so far as to say that the majority of protesters who gathered there that day were heroes protesting genuine grievances?
Number two, would you be willing to say that January 6th should be an informal national holiday held in their honor?
And could you, number three, in good conscience, advocate not just for the release of all remaining January 6th prisoners, but restitution and even reprisal against the corrupt justice system that imprisoned them in the first place?
Now, we will argue today that all Christians should be able to say a hearty yes and amen to all three of these questions.
In fact, tearing down the mythos of January 6th might just be essential if we are going to make any progress at all.
Join us today with special guest Charles Haywood as we discuss.
Tune in now.
All right, this is what we want to do.
We've got a tweet up.
I think it's fantastic.
It actually came out, if I remember correctly.
On the day that my fifth girl was born, it was the day that we found out, woke up, it felt like Christmas morning, maybe even better, that Donald Trump had been reelected as the 47th president of these United States.
Here's the tweet.
He says this Well, the first person, Deb, says, How can the total number of voters be less this year than they were in 2020 after we've had the biggest turnout than ever before?
Demand a recount and an investigation.
Hashtag do not concede Kamala.
Super ridiculous tweet.
And here was the retweet.
Absolute just professional trolling, something to aspire to.
I can't do this.
This is, it was inspirational to say the least.
So, Vinland says, Well, I suppose you could try to make a case in court, but since the states haven't certified their elections, it might be difficult to establish standing.
After the certification, you might have standing, but unfortunately, a court cannot overrule an act of the legislator.
You could potentially try to gather.
A slate of alternate electors, but the Congress is under no obligation to accept them.
At that point, you'd probably have to appeal to the Supreme Court, but that's tough since they don't want to be in the business of deciding elections.
Then all that's left really is a good old fashioned right of assembly for a redress of grievances, i.e., a march.
Friday Live Stream Schedule00:03:54
January 6th is when the VP certifies the election officially, and that's probably the time that you will want to aim for to achieve maximum public impact.
Good luck!
Fantastic.
This is what we need to see.
We need more of this.
We're going to go ahead and sparse out this tweet, and then we're going to bring on Charles Haywood right at 3 30 p.m. Central Time.
But, real quick, here's the intro sequence that you've come to know and love.
All right, we are back.
Welcome, GA.
GA.
GA, we're back.
We have revamped the studio a little bit for your viewing pleasure.
For those of you who watch us on X or YouTube or our app or our website, right, responsiveministries.com.
For those of you who are listening, well, you miss out on the visual aesthetic, but it's fantastic.
I assure you, you can go and check us out on YouTube.
Do us a favor if you're watching right now live on YouTube, then go ahead and subscribe to the channel and click the bell so that you'll be notified every time we come out with new content.
Our new schedule for the year of our Lord 2025 is going to be Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
Monday, Wednesday, Friday for the live stream three times a week at 3 p.m. Central Time.
And we're going to go live both on X and on YouTube.
So subscribe and click the bell on YouTube and go over to X while you're at it and make sure to follow our ministry there.
The handle is at RightResponseM.
At RightResponseM.
And you can watch all these live on X. They'll drop simultaneously on YouTube and X.
And then, of course, you can go to the website, you can go to the app.
Or if you're a listening person because you like to do two things at once simultaneously, or you're driving in the car, then go ahead and head over to whatever your favorite podcast platform is.
You can do Spotify, Apple, all the podcast platforms.
So that's our schedule for the live stream this year Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 3 p.m. Central Time.
Charles Haywood is going to be joining us here in just a few minutes at 3 30.
And in addition to that, the rest of our schedule for this year is on Fridays at 8 p.m. Central Time.
The Friday special.
So that'll be in the evening.
So you've got an afternoon live stream three times a week Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then the evening, Friday at 8 p.m. Central Time.
You'll be able to see the Friday special.
That's going to start this Friday.
It's going to be a nine part series with myself and Pastor Andrew Isker on all things Israel, Judeo Christian, that whole oxymoron, those kinds of things.
How Christians today should view the nation state of Israel, how we should view it biblically, covenantally, what do you do with the ethnicity?
All those kinds of things.
We're going to be addressing that nine part series that kicks off.
We showed the first two episodes to the public last year, 2024.
We're going to start back with episode one, but we're going to actually make all nine of them available to the public.
And so that's going to be Fridays at 8 p.m. Central Time.
And then Q2, we've already got lined up for the Friday special.
That's going to be a 10 part series with myself and Dr. Stephen Wolf on all things Christian nationalism, including the Christian Prince, all the good stuff.
So you guys will enjoy that.
That's going to start Q2 in April, the first Friday.
Of April.
Okay, so for today, let's go ahead and pull the tweet back up on the screen.
I want to hear from Michael and Wes.
Let's dissect this a little bit.
Nathan, if you could keep it on the widescreen, but go ahead and pull it up.
Yep, on the screens behind us.
This is the tweet.
I think it's hilarious because he's basically what he's doing is exactly how you, Wes, you helped us lay out our outline and the intro blurb for today's episode.
But I think you're absolutely right that what we can't do.
Dissecting The Minneapolis Tweet00:15:10
Is we can't allow January 6th to get out from under us, to get away from us, to where it gets etched in stone as a new national mythos, where it becomes eventually comparable to where people who weren't even alive, right, our grandchildren are hearing about it 70 years from now.
And then it becomes eventually comparable to, at a global level, the mythos of the post war, the whole post war consensus.
That's something that we spent a lot of time in 2024 dealing with, we'll continue to deal with it as it comes up, as it's relevant.
But we don't want everyone in the world to define all of life based off of Adolf Hitler.
Love him, hate him, right?
We don't love him.
But he's also, we don't think he's the worst guy in all of human history.
We don't think that either.
We think there are worse guys.
Mao was way worse.
Fascists killed their millions and communists their tens of millions.
And so, but regardless of where you land with World War II history, the point still remains all of life has been defined by, well, you don't want to be like Germany, don't want to be like the Nazis, don't want to be like Hitler.
And that's the same kind of mythos that's starting to become entrenched if we let it get away from us in regards to January 6th.
So we just want to come out with a banger right here on January 6th and say, No, January 6th was not that bad.
And in fact, there's a lot of things that are honorable and should be esteemed.
So, Wes, I'll give it to you.
What do you think?
Yeah.
So, it was something I do.
I go to the library a lot and I'll get what's new out.
And it'll typically be books I don't even agree with.
So, there's been a good amount of books written this year and they're against Christian nationalism.
So, these are mainline Protestant authors, Catholics, evangelicals, have nothing to do with Christian nationalism, don't like it.
And when I've read these books, I read about two of them.
The most recent one was called Baptizing America.
Let me tell you what the mythos, the idea, Of January 6th is permeates the whole book, the whole part of their like resistance.
We don't like this idea.
We don't want Christian nationalism.
It blurs the lines with the political and the religious.
The whole foundation of their argument, there's other things they sprinkle in, but it's if you get Christian nationalism, you get January 6th.
You get the mob.
You get rioting.
You get against the rule of law.
And it's this foundational story of look, this is what happens when you blur the political and you blur the religious and you bring Jesus into bear.
And for the record, I've been to a couple Trump rallies and I've seen the t shirts.
Jesus is my savior.
Trump is my president.
Don't really like that.
It's just, it's not helpful.
I get what you're kind of trying to do.
I get kind of the salt of the earth, you know, your Southern Baptist grandma.
I understand what's being done there, but not really a big fan of it.
So we're not here, you know, espousing for holding up statutes of Jesus and singing maybe amazing grace at the Capitol.
But here's the deal we also can't let maybe even some minor misuses of it then go on and be taken and leveraged and say, you can never have Christian nationalism because it looks like this.
Christian nationalism as a term, it came out of January 6th.
Like this term really didn't have any use.
You wouldn't have met a Christian nationalist in 2015, 2018, something like that.
It's been since the Capitol.
We've been trying to do the best work of saying, hey, Christian, we're that.
Nationalism, we're down with that.
We're okay with this term.
And there's a battle for the word.
Will it be the word that defines riots and tear gas and against the rule of law, this, that, or the other?
Will it be a good term for good salt of the earth people who love their nation, who love God, and want to see it be a moral, happy, flourishing place?
Yep.
My hand's up for the second one.
Right.
Michael, what do you think?
Well, about the tweet specifically, I think it's almost uncanny.
I don't know how this guy had such insight to lay out such a precise, specific, legally rigorous plan.
Like the foresight that he had in offering this advice to that original tweet, I really can't.
That must have taken weeks and weeks of planning and research into what would happen and hypotheticals and game stream.
No, I'm just kidding.
I mean, I don't know.
It's hard to.
It's hard to not come away from everything that's happening right now with the simple, it's been said before, conclusion of just the whole rules for thee and not for me.
Right.
And what I want to say is, I just want to get that comment out of the way now because I think actually, as we get into the discussion with Charles Haywood, we actually have some things to talk about that are not just, yeah, but they're hypocrites.
Yeah, but they do it too.
Right.
Like, and I think one of the things that, at least in the article that you had for us, Wes, that was really great was he said, yeah, that's obvious.
Right.
Like, it's obvious that they will do what they want and they'll criticize us for doing the same thing.
It's obvious that they're being hypocritical about this.
Okay, great.
What do we do about it?
Like, what about now?
What do we do moving forward?
How do we?
And that's why, Wes, I like how you framed the discussion.
And we actually need to leverage or at least consider how to think about January 6th in the light of what's furthering the cause of the dissident and the Christian right.
Well, these guys actually showed some heroism.
Actually, maybe instead of hiding and kind of, yeah, Christian nationalism, but not like that.
Well, actually, maybe these guys had more courage than a lot of other people.
Maybe there are some things that we can learn from them and some virtue in what they did that we can esteem and value and get behind, actually.
How many people died January 6th?
On the day of January 6th, one person, she was one of the ones, the belligerents, a woman, I'm not going to pronounce her name right.
Ashley Babbitt.
Ashley Babbitt.
She was shot by Capitol Police.
And I wouldn't get into the situation and say, well, actually, people do things under duress.
So one person was shot and killed.
And later on, an officer died of a heart attack.
It was a protester.
Yes, it was a protester.
Yeah.
I remember when I was first hearing the news about it, I mean, they made it sound like all these officers had died and that they had died.
At the hands of the protesters, right?
Where come to find out, you know, uh, what I think it was two or maybe three that died one a day after a heart attack 48 hours later, yeah, a heart attack, multiple like a drug overdose was one of them, drug, you know, multiple days after.
And so, um, yeah, I mean, the way that they spun it immediately was like this was this terrible thing, and you know, all the members of Congress were fearing for their lives, bodies were stacked outside, bodies stacked outside, exactly, you know, and it's just.
You can't, it's not just pointing the finger and you're being hypocritical.
Because, of course, the mostly peaceful riots, the Summer of Love 2020 BLM, way worse.
They're not even in the same category.
Well, let's show just even the worst convictions.
Go ahead.
So, I have a graph here made by yours truly.
Let's compare the Summer of Love.
So, these are the riots following George Floyd's arrest and death in 2020.
So, not even a year prior to January 6th.
And this is just the Minneapolis St. Paul area.
So, this is not across the nation, anything like that.
So, the scale of damage as compared to the January 6th electoral justice protest, I got that from Charles Haywood.
So, just as far as damages, I'm going to read it out for any of you who are listening.
$350 million worth of damage was done to the Minneapolis region car dealerships, businesses, restaurants, homes.
I just want to emphasize, I think you said this, but this was not the only riot that started.
Exactly.
Right.
Okay.
This is just the city where George Floyd's death actually happened.
So, $350 million in damage to Minneapolis and St. Paul.
January 6th electoral justice protest.
Estimates are about 2.7 million.
So you're talking about 120 times more damage.
There are more participants, 8,000 to 10,000 in the Minneapolis area, about 2,500 or so on January 6th.
There were two deaths in the St. Paul area.
One of them was a shop owner who was shot in the head during a burglary.
Another one died from smoke inhalation.
There was one death that we already mentioned on January 6th.
So then you would think more people, much more damage, marginally more deaths.
So that would mean like the cops and the National Guard, there were at least equivalent amount of arrests, right?
Best estimate I found 570 arrests in Minneapolis to 1,200 arrestslash charges issued in January 6th.
Wow.
570 to 1,200 to about 1,500, some of the higher estimates are.
So about three times fewer arrests and convictions.
So then there were arrests and there were charges.
Many of those have been dropped to date, as best I can tell.
And real quick, that 570 arrests, that's not just one, right?
That's all the rights combined that happened.
Just in Minneapolis.
In Minneapolis.
Okay.
Yeah.
Of those 8,000 participants.
Gotcha.
44 convictions.
So, in the St. Floyd riots, 44 convictions have come out of that.
How many convictions have come out of January 6th?
About a thousand.
So, some estimates as low as 900, others as high as 1200, some of them 22 years in prison, fines ranging in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
So, we're talking about a tenth as many actual convictions.
20 to 25 times more convictions for January 6th.
So, not even a tenth, it'd be like 5%, 4%.
A hundredth of the damage, much fewer participants.
And again, the point is not like, oh, look if the shoe was on the other foot.
It's friend, enemy.
It's politics.
It's leveraging optics.
That's what's being done.
The left knows how to play politics.
Real quick, this is not the subject for today, but knocked loose in the live stream.
I'm not going to comment on it, but not your most recent comment, but your second most recent comment.
That is correct.
Can confirm.
All right, let's keep going.
Yeah, so just absolutely wild.
What time is it?
We want to make sure that we get, hey, we've got 10 minutes on the clock.
10 minutes on the clock.
Yeah, but when you think about it, the reason why I wanted to share that tweet is.
The way that he laid it out, one, it was just fantastic, you know, superb professional trolling.
And I always appreciate it.
It was Stephen Wolf level trolling.
Yeah, it really was.
But beyond that, beyond just the comedic, you know, element, it also, for me, it just was succinct, it was concise, it was clear, and it helped me understand this is what was going through people's minds.
They were trying to make a difference, and they were trying to do so peacefully.
They weren't trying to, it wasn't to, you know, forcefully, you know, take the Capitol or take the White House, you know, with a bunch of, A bunch of guns.
They didn't storm it with guns.
Nope.
They stormed it with signs.
They stormed it peacefully, but it was to get a message across.
And they had no other avenue of dealing with their grievances.
And the whole point was saying, look, we think that there was some serious, funny business in this election.
And honestly, especially after our most recent 2024 presidential election, yeah, I feel like a lot of that, if anything, has only been further confirmed.
I was talking to over the Christmas holidays.
I was talking to my brother.
Don't see him very often, love him dearly, but we have strong disagreements.
My brother is on good days a Marxist and bad days a communist.
And I, on good days, am a Christian nationalist and on my bad days, a Christo fascist.
So the two of us are about as far apart as you could possibly get in our worldview and certainly our view of politics.
And all that ultimately is, you know, we have different views of the scripture.
That's where, you know, everybody ultimately, that's where your worldview is contrived.
But we were talking about it, and he was saying, you know, well, you just see that, you know, the Dems put forward a terrible candidate, and there was no turnout for her because, you know, she's just a laughing stock.
I was like, well, you know, we couldn't agree more on that.
I'm with you.
But I said, but that's, I mean, 90 quadrillion billion gazillion, you know, votes for Joe Biden.
81 million?
It was 90.
Trump had close to 80.
76.
Biden had 81.
Yep, 81 million.
71.
I thought it was 90.
76.
Okay, so 81 in 2020.
It was still the most of any election ever.
But it was a candidate.
Wasn't it like 10, 20% higher than Obama got?
Yes.
In 2012.
It's higher than Hillary, higher than Obama.
Higher than anybody ever.
And then what you see, if you look at every presidential election for every four years on the dim side, and then it's like spikes in 2020 for Joe Biden.
And then it comes right back down in line with 2008, 2012, 2016.
And I was just saying, look, at minimum, even if you don't want to say that, you have to at least be able to say that it was rigged, even if it wasn't stolen, even if it wasn't illegal, at least rigged with ballot harvesting and these kinds of things.
And it's not just that, oh, you know, people weren't motivated to vote for Kamala, but they really love Uncle Joe.
And so my point is just anybody with two eyes in their head was looking at what was going on and saying, this is absolutely absurd.
I refuse to believe this many people came out.
And voted for Uncle Joe, who has been on the wrong side of every issue for 5,000 years, as long as he's been in politics from the womb.
And he's currently like 170 years old.
I refuse to believe it.
And I understand that nobody voted for Joe Biden.
It was votes for Trump and votes against Trump.
But even with that, it was insane.
It was hard to believe.
So, what do you do if you feel like you're being lied to?
The January Sixers.
Did the only thing they knew to do.
They tried to get the message across.
There was no avenue for them to go to.
There's no court that was going to take that case.
All of their ones, their elected representatives, ignored them.
And when they came in, we have some concerns, they hid, fled instead of facing them.
Right.
So they're trying as patriots to say, we think something's wrong.
We think something's wrong.
And we're trying to make our voices heard.
And again, as we've already established, the only person who died.
At the protest on January 6th, was a protester.
Yep.
And so, yeah, this myth has to be debunked.
And if it's not, my fear, our concern is that it will be enshrined eventually.
It won't be the same level, the same status, but at a national level for America, it will be like what happened with the post war consensus, World War II, Adolf Hitler, Third Reich, Germany, the whole nine yards, is now anytime somebody says, you know, Stephen Wolf mentions the Christian prince.
And people say, well, the last guy who was a strong authoritarian leader on the right, which I'm not even, I think that you can poke holes in that whether or not Hitler was truly on the right.
But the point is, well, the last time somebody on the right, somebody who was a nationalist, rose to power and had strong dogma and opinions and this, that, and the other, it was Adolf Hitler, the worst person in all of human history, worse than Mao, worse than anybody else, the devil incarnate.
And I'm concerned that.
The same thing is going to happen.
The Case For A Strong Hand00:02:51
And so it's something that we just need to break the.
We need to be able to freely and publicly talk about January 6th and say, yeah, there can be some reasonable measure of criticisms, but on the whole, good on those people.
Well, they were patriotic.
Those who put them in prison, they need to go to prison.
It's not enough just to release them.
The tables have to be turned.
There needs to be a strong hand.
That's how the left wins.
They don't play nice, they're not reasonable.
They say they don't apologize and distance themselves from their.
Right.
And in this case, it's not just wielding power, you know, just to wield it.
No, it is just.
People were wrongfully imprisoned.
Anybody who put people in jail for four years for something that was not a crime, that was not wrong, those people need to go to jail for at least four years.
That is biblical restitution.
So there needs to be a strong arm and a message needs to be sent in the other direction that if you try to lie to people, you try to gaslight people, you try to crack down.
Down using the law against political opponents, what they try to do with Trump, you know, and convicting him and all these.
Yeah, the next four years needs to be crushing leftists.
Absolutely crushed.
I'm talking about sued into oblivion.
I'm talking about jail for years for anyone who's guilty.
Fair trials and then jail.
Overcooked, undercooked, believe it or not, jail.
By the way, so that's my opinion.
Michael, you're going to say something.
I was just going to say in some ways, this is the classic statement that history is written by the winner, by the victor.
And so the narrative that comes out of January 6th will be determined by whichever side comes out of this steel caged.
And we've had four years where we were on the losing side.
And so, what needs to be done is this next four years, it's four years at minimum to build.
I've heard that.
I agree.
I've made that argument.
At minimum, four years of some reprieve, some relief, we can build all those kinds of things.
But by God's grace, my hope is that we could accomplish a little bit more than that.
For four years, the narrative has already been starting to set.
And the cement, I would argue, is mostly dry, but not quite entirely.
I think that there's still time.
If the Dems had won, if Biden had won, and then they got eight years followed up on Biden's win with eight years of Kamala, After 12 years, you're done.
You're done at multiple levels.
You're done with immigration and importing the third world and their voters.
You're done at every single level.
And you're certainly done with this narrative being cemented into the annals of history.
But by God's grace, because Trump has won, it's only been four years.
I think that it doesn't just need to be reprieve.
It doesn't just need to be GDP goes up.
It doesn't just need to be four years of an opportunity to build.
It also needs to be let's go back and fix this narrative before it's totally etched in stone.
Punishing Those Who Created Injustice00:15:58
And that's part of what we want to do today.
So let's go to our first commercial break.
And then we're going to come right back out with Charles Haywood.
All right, guys, listen, huge development with our conference.
This is the Christ is King Conference, How to Defeat Trash World, happening the year of our Lord 2025, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th.
That's a Thursday through Saturday.
Now, we already had an all star lineup, but we've made it even sweeter.
We've got Steve Dace, Orrin McIntyre, Andrew Isker.
We've added his co host from Contra Mundum, that's CJ Engel.
We've got all the Ogden boys, Brian Sauvay, Eric Kahn, Ben Garrett, and Dan Burkholder.
Of course, we've got the Christian Prince himself, Dusty Devers, the reasonable Latino, A.D. Robles, and John Harris, the host of Conversations That Matter.
But we've also carved out now space for a formal 90 minute debate hosted between Stephen Wolfe and David Reese.
The debate is on natural law versus theonomy.
And then we've added one more special guest speaker to the lineup, Calvin Robinson.
We are super excited about this conference.
Eight main sessions, three different panels, plus the debate.
It's going to be an incredible time that we spend together.
Again, this is April 3rd through 5th, 2025, and you can go to RightResponseConference.com to register today.
Again, that's RightResponseConference.com to register today.
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All right, we are back.
Charles Haywood is going to be joining us.
This is what I would like to start off with.
Charles, I assume that you can hear us.
We are live right now.
I just want to turn it to you.
You've watched, from what I've heard from you and from others who have seen your analysis, you've watched probably hundreds of hours of footage and especially commentating all those kinds of things in regards to January 6th.
And so we just want To hear you give some of your commentary, your analysis, and help us to think about this properly.
We think it should be an informal national holiday, but what do you think?
Well, I certainly agree with the conclusion, so we can work backward from there.
I love your sweater, by the way.
Thank you.
One of my daughters loves yellow, so I keep showing up in yellow.
I, of course, call it the electoral justice protest.
That's never really caught on on my appearance with Tucker.
A year or two ago, he used it a couple times after that, but no one has really caught on to the term electoral justice protest, though I keep using it.
But Patriots' Day seems to be a new thing that people have been pushing.
So I'm willing to defer to Patriots' Day, whatever we call it.
It should definitely be a national holiday in the future.
But in some level, that's a joke.
I mean, it's not a joke, and I really think it should be Patriots' Day, but it's a distraction from the substance of it.
And I think the substance is extremely important because no one Likes to talk about the substance, but no one wants to talk about these things.
It's like no one really wants to talk about the Gulag and the Soviet Union or the mistreatment of the Romanian communists of people in the 1950s, which to be sure is the treatment in the Gulag or by the Romanian communists is worse than the treatment of the heroes of January 6th, but only by degree, not in terms of its actual quality.
And as I am fond of pointing out, and this is undeniably true, late communist Soviet Union or late communist East Germany.
Held a lot fewer political prisoners than America does at this very moment.
And in fact, most of the relatively few political prisoners in those places were actual spies, as in people they had caught spying for money and they were being held.
And that's not really a political prisoner, though it was counted in that bucket.
So certainly, I mean, I think it should be a national holiday.
And I mean, we can really talk about any aspect of it that interests you.
I mean, I tend to follow different threads.
Because I used to be a lawyer, I tend to focus a lot on kind of the distortions and corruptions of the justice system that have been engendered by the regime's response to January 6th.
You can also, of course, focus on the human interest stories and what have you, but because I'm a sociopath, I don't focus so much on the human interest, as important as that is, the lives destroyed and what have you.
And then, of course, there's lots to talk about what's going to be done about it, if anything, the new Trump administration.
So, I mean, whatever you want to talk about.
Let's do this.
What do you think should be done?
And then, number two, what do you think will be done?
I'd like to hear predictions as well as prescriptions.
Well, my predictions have been running about 50%, so take them for what they're worth.
Right.
Yeah.
Somehow I got into the prediction game, and then people like you gratuitously encouraged me to predict more, getting me into trouble.
I'm not sure.
So, I mean, what should be done is quite clear.
I mean, the parameters can be decided, but if I were king, First of all, the country would be a lot better off if I were king.
But second, more narrowly on this question, the kind of day one thing is that Trump should obviously pardon 100%.
There's 100% of the people connected in any way, their persecution connected in any way to January 6th, whether that includes, I mean, there's people who are in jail for a couple of decades for so called seditious conspiracy, a crime that literally never been charged in American history before for a law that had been on the books for 200 years or 200 plus years.
Something like that.
So obviously, he should issue pardons and he should issue significant compensation to everybody who was either imprisoned or persecuted or investigated.
I mean, very significant compensation, millions of dollars, maybe tens of million dollars for some people.
And then, of course, medals, rewards, commendations.
I mean, the kind of things that are not kind of quantifiable, but indicate the desire of the people in charge to applaud rather than to persecute behavior.
So I don't think people should underrate things like.
Commendations in favor of to say, well, here's a pardon, now let's forget about it.
And then, of course, the second half of this is punishing of everyone involved in the persecution of these people.
And that punishment has to be many times the seriousness and gravity of the persecution, or else it doesn't serve its game theory purpose of deterring such things in the future.
That's a much harder thing to do because it can't be done by executive action.
And even some of the first group could only be done by congressional action.
I mean, Trump doesn't have a bunch of money he can just hand out.
As the president to people, that's something that the left confines.
Only the left wing presidents have the ability to hand out money.
Right wing presidents are called on the carpet if they do that.
So, how you go about punishing these people legally or extra legally by extra legally, I mean kind of Nuremberg style things, saying, yes, you did this under the guise of legality, but you're going to be punished anyway because it was not, in fact, just or legal in the broader sense.
I don't really know how you'd go about that.
It's going to be difficult because the entire system is designed to prevent that kind of thing, that kind of punishment of anybody who's on the left side of the spectrum.
So, I don't have a great idea how to do that.
You could, for example, enable private rights of action, but there are various legal devices.
So, for example, there's a judge created, entirely judge created legal doctrine called immunity that if you are in the justice system as a police officer or a judge, you are completely immune.
From lawsuits against you.
This is nowhere in the law.
The judges just created it in order to protect themselves and the people that they wanted to protect.
You could have Congress pass a law stripping people of immunity.
You can override the judges.
Congress isn't likely to do that in its current incarnation, but there would be one avenue for attacking these people.
And obviously, people like the guy who murdered Ashley Babbitt should be in jail for the rest of his life.
The staff implementation doesn't run out on those things.
And Liz Cheney should be in jail for the rest of her life for various actual crimes, suborning perjury and what have you.
That she engaged in trying to make political hay out of January 6th.
But that's going to be harder to do, actually punishing people.
But it's absolutely necessary.
You can't just try to recompense people for injustices done to them without punishing the people who created those injustices.
So that's a very important part of the equation.
Right.
Because the restitution, in order for it to actually be just, the restitution actually needs to come from those who committed the wrong.
So, even from just a biblical standard of justice, if the restitution only comes from the taxpayer, the government is just giving money because these people were rotting in jail unfairly and unjustly for four years, but the money is ultimately coming from us and not from those who actually committed the crime and put them there unjustly, then there's biblical problems in terms of justice.
But then also in terms of political and shifting categories, politically, the message just isn't strong enough because ultimately what you're telling your enemies, your enemies.
Your enemies don't just need to be hamstrung, they need to be crushed.
It's not just that your enemies need to get the message that your worst attempts, enemies, will ultimately be undone four years later.
That's not a very strong message.
The message needs to be no, your worst attempts, as soon as we get power again, tenfold will come back down on your head.
Don't try it.
That's the only way to have an equilibrium.
I mean, that leaves aside the broader question of can we live with these people at all?
I mean, can you have a society?
But if you're going to have a society, you have to.
Restore the equilibrium.
And I, of course, am not privy to anything inside the administration, but you hear rumors that Trump is only going to commute sentences, that is, end sentences.
I mean, that would be a complete disaster and a betrayal of the reason a lot of people voted for Trump.
So, to the extent Trump has people in his ear that say, well, you know, there was some violence and there was no relevant violence by the heroes of January 6th, there was some pushing and shoving occasioned by the violence initiated by the Capitol Police, but there wasn't any actual violence.
Certainly, to speak of, certainly relative to the violence, a tiny fraction of any violence the left continuously meted out in the summer of 2020.
But Trump may be listening to people say, well, you know, some people got out of control and, you know, there were some people who did some bad things.
It doesn't, I mean, if you dug deep enough, there are probably some people who pushed and shoved people a bit more aggressively than might be desired.
That doesn't matter.
I mean, they should be rewarded and commended in the same way that someone who did nothing at all should be rewarded and commended because they were participating in a heroic action.
But Trump may listen to evil counselors, so we'll see.
We'll see.
Wes, what do you think?
I was going to say, you wrote, and for the record, you were early, Charles.
You deserve credit.
I think it was 2021.
You were like, January 6th was awesome.
This was great.
But you parse out friend enemy a lot.
And so you say, that which serves my side, my friends, my people deserves to be celebrated.
That which goes against, hurts my enemies, damages the reputation should be leveraged against them.
Can you help people see just.
When you have a friend, and again, not all your belligerents, maybe you're super thrilled about, but you got good salt of the earth people who loved their nation, who loved Trump, who genuinely protested and requested redress for grievances.
So they did that, and they did something cool, which is they made the representatives feel like they answered to them.
I think it was the first moment.
Some of those representatives who probably spent decades in Congress for a second were like, Oh, yeah, we answered to the people, and the people can ultimately say, Enough.
And that's helpful because they are our friends and they serve our.
Political purposes that we share with them.
So, friend, enemy, making your representatives remember that they answer to you.
Is there anything you can parse out there additionally?
I think I will step back and say that the moral frame is also important.
That is, just because people are my friends, like the guy who's slipping me cash kickbacks for my illegal scheme.
That's hypothetical.
I don't actually have any illegal schemes.
If I did have illegal schemes and some guy was giving me kickbacks, he may be my friend, but I don't have a.
You can't say, your actions need to be as a kind of premise.
Moral within the, if God is unhappy with the things that you are doing, maybe you should step back.
But the fact is, God is not unhappy at a bunch of people pushing and shoving inside the Capitol or outside the Capitol, rather, in order to demonstrate in a supposed democracy that the people are unhappy with their elected representatives.
So I think the, when you talk about friend enemy, you're bringing in Carl Schmitt kind of stuff.
And Schmitt was, I mean, I'm a huge, Schmidt fan, and Schmidt was a, he wasn't an indifferent Christian, but let's say he had an orchard relationship with the Catholic Church, which, and a disordered personal life.
So, a lot of, if you talk about friend enemy, it's easy to forget the moral frame.
So, on the premise that the frame is moral, and you also have the moral question on the other side in terms of like what punishments you should hand out and what have you.
But I think the friend enemy distinction is, as you say, the crucial.
Distinction here.
And people on the right for decades have completely failed to execute on this distinction while it's all that people on the left have executed.
I mean, this is, of course, not a point original to me, but I grew up, I'm older than all of you, but I remember I grew up in the 1980s reading National Review when it was actually, I mean, now, of course, it's just a pile of steaming horse manure, but it's back then it was a flagship publication, the only publication really other than, say, Chronicles, which was much smaller.
On the right, and all of it was more principles.
It was all looking back, and I'm always down correctly on William F. Buckley, but there was never any mention of justice or rewarding friends and punishing enemies.
It was all about more principles, which of course ended up in the right for decades, and hopefully now we're turning the corner on that, fighting the long defeat.
Driving The Political Car00:15:46
And if you don't approach all politics, All crucial politics.
I mean, if you're arguing on the local level about whether you should fund a sidewalk, you probably don't need to view it to the friend enemy distinction.
But I mean, all politics that is crucial has to be viewed to the friend enemy distinction.
The issue that I think that brings up in our society is that politics is far too ingrained in all of society.
That is, in a well run society, the average person has essentially no connection or interest in.
National politics and doesn't really have much to say about it.
And so, therefore, doesn't have to ponder everything through the prism of friend and enemy.
But since the left has politicized everything for a century and made America into political bedlam, the result is that you have a very corrosive approach to society, even though that approach is necessary that of friend and enemy.
I don't have a solution for that, but it's kind of a bad harbinger of the future because unless we can back off everything being politicized, Then everything will be viewed by both sides through friend enemy distinction.
And that's simply not a recipe for social comedy.
Yeah.
Right.
Biblically, I think of, because, you know, some people struggle with, you know, Christians, evangelicals are sadly, I am an evangelical.
That's why I pick on them.
It's my own tribe.
So, you know, but evangelical Protestants sadly really, really, really struggle with this.
And so they're, you know, like friend enemy, you know, once you get past, like, well, Carl Schmidt, and that's a Nazi, it's like, you know, the Nazis drank water too.
I still drink water.
Um, if you know, all truth is God's truth, it's a good idea.
I think it's the way that people behave.
Even at minimum, it's a good observation.
And at maximum, it's a good strategy.
And so once you get past that part of the conversation, then, you know, evangelicals, they're like, well, but crush enemies.
What do you mean, crush enemies?
That sounds terrible.
That's not what Jesus did.
Turn the other cheek.
And so then you get into public enemies and private enemies.
And Charles, you and I have had that conversation before, and you've done some good writing on that.
I remember one of your sub stacks on private versus public enemies and how you treat them.
And that's really helpful.
But one of the, the, the, Passages, biblical passages that I think of that I think can be helpful for people when you're trying to teach them how to understand these things, especially female Christians.
I would advocate for it, just don't have that conversation.
Say, I love you, sister.
Could I speak with your husband?
That's what I do.
Because it's just women aren't fighters and they're not supposed to be.
My wife is not a fighter, praise God.
I fight for our family.
But my point is biblically, one of the texts that I've used that has been helpful is talking about straining gnats and swallowing camels.
So, in terms of biblical justice, there can be infractions that at the objective level really do fail to meet God's law.
It's like, okay, well, this really was an infraction.
This really was a crime, or this really was, maybe it wasn't a crime, but we could argue that it was still sinful.
Not all sins are crimes, you know, but there was a sin.
But then you have to step back for a moment and realize that you kept saying my principles, you know.
So the principle guys, right, because the left has no principles, they are monsters.
They hate Christ, they hate God, they hate morals, they hate all those kinds of things.
They don't have principles.
But many people on the right do.
And so we can be suckers at times and we can be suckered into that by the left.
And because the left will sit there and they'll point and say, but that's a gnat.
I see it.
Can't you see it?
Here's a magnifying glass.
Here's a telescope.
You know, like zoom in, zoom in, zoom in.
Oh, it is a gnat.
And then we spend the next six months straining a gnat.
Meanwhile, the left is forcing camels down our throat.
And so my point is I think to help people see, we're not.
Advocating for turning blind eyes to injustice or these kinds of things.
But what we are saying is the common problem, as I see it on the right, is a problem of triage.
It's a problem of priority.
It's not that the right needs to all of a sudden become monsters like the left.
It's not that the right needs to forfeit its principles.
But what the right does need to do is triage, right?
It's just like an emergency room.
Here's the deal right now, we are in the ER.
America is in the emergency room.
And we have.
Millions of patients and only so much staff.
And so, what you have to do is, yeah, this is a crime, and that's a crime, and that's a problem, this is a problem, that's a sin, and that's wrong, and that needs to be improved.
Sure, all of it, all of it.
However, who has something, an object sticking out of their head?
Who's bleeding from the head?
Who can't breathe?
Like, let's start with that oxygen.
Who can breathe?
Who, you know, like, and then eventually we'll get to broken wrist, you know, and eventually we can get to, you know, my two year old has a rash, you know, or whatever.
But you have to start big.
The headline, what the right has done time and time again is the left comes in and makes the footnote the headline, and the headline the footnote.
And sometimes the left is correct in an objective sense of this footnote actually is an infraction.
And the right were such suckers that will say, well, I guess technically that is an infraction, technically.
And so then we'll apply our principles in the objective sense as Christians.
But the problem is that we're not applying the principles to the headline, to the major.
And then we get meticulous, and all our principled ethics get applied to the footnote, to the minor.
And I think that that's one of the major problems.
So, as I've talked to, I'll argue with people and say, look, yeah, yeah, there might have been some pushing and shoving, or yes, there might have been this, there might have been that.
But let's step back for a second.
You have private citizens.
Over here, you have publicly elected officials, and they've imprisoned people to rot for four years and lied.
Let's start there.
Let's start.
There.
And I think that that is a biblical principle that Christians should be able to get behind is first start with the big things, right?
Put that in order, right?
I mean, that's a constant principle throughout the scripture seek first the kingdom of God and all these other minor things, temporal things will be added unto you.
The principle of start with the big things, the things that matter most, and then move on, outflow from that.
So it's not turning a blind eye.
It's not that the right becomes the left, that all of a sudden we forfeit all of our principles and we don't care about morality at all.
But it is.
It is ethical triage.
And there's a principle, ironically, for triaging and prioritizing principles.
You guys got any thoughts about that?
I want to hear from you, Charles, as our guest, but then also, Michael, you pipe in after Charles.
Sure.
I agree with that, certainly.
I think, kind of on a temporal basis, this isn't a biblical principle, but fundamentally, the right has to decide to drive the car rather than being driven around as we have been for decades, reacting to whatever it is the left chooses to use as the Frame setting device for the narrative.
And unless Trump comes out of the gate strong doing that, and admittedly, he does show pretty good signs of doing that in his selections and in what he said and what have you, I think that we're not going to get the results that we want.
And really, I'm always hesitant to make kind of very broad statements like this.
But I think it is true that, and Musk is always banging on about this.
And I think it's interesting that people who are entirely not Christian also see this.
See the same way that this is really the last chance we have to regain our nation, or rather, the last peaceful chance we have to regain our nation.
That Trump and the people around Trump I mean, Trump is in some ways just a condensed symbol, though he is obviously the most important guy.
He can do things that are necessary in order to restore our nation and to restore justice and balance, and frankly, to put the fear of God into our enemies so that in the future we can move forward together.
That's a long shot, admittedly, even if.
Trump does all those things.
The divisions are very deep and so on.
But certainly the last peaceful possibility.
And if Trump had not been elected, there would be no possibility.
And we would be headed towards some form of violent conflict, whether low level or high level, I don't know.
But the good news is we have a potential escape hatch only if we use that not to restore the status quo ante of 2019 or 2008, but the actual.
Not to restore any status quo ante, because going back to the past is a waste of everyone's time.
I've written against nostalgia.
But for example, one of the things that Trump has to do, whether the right has to do in order to renew America, totally aside from things, this narrow question we're talking about, the electoral justice protest, we have to move towards restoring freedom of association, because America is run in a way that is completely incompatible with any social comity.
We're basically One group of people is, by law, white people, white men specifically, is basically deprioritized and persecuted and officially allowed to be oppressed.
And that's the most productive group in the nation.
And if you can't reverse the so called Civil Rights Act and all its associated progeny, we're not going to get social commentary.
And no one's even talking about that except kind of fringes on the right.
On the other hand, you know, there's a lot of things that are being talked about now that six months ago were only talked about on the fringes of the right.
So we'll see.
It's amazing.
The Overton is shifting at incredible speeds.
Michael, do you have something to add?
I have a question kind of about narrative and.
The article that you wrote about this was, it was almost four years ago now, right?
It was 2021.
And we were talking before the show about the idea, or maybe you mentioned it during the show just now, Joel, that within about four years, that's kind of some people have observed that that is the amount of time that it takes to build and establish something.
Right.
So, my question for you, Mr. Haywood, is in relation to January 6th and the larger narrative, because Wes brought up the idea before we brought you on that.
Even in Christian circles, evangelical circles, January 6th is pointed to as this is why we cannot have something like Christian nationalism, because then we'll get riots all over the place.
My question is as far as narratives go, is this narrative about January 6th being evil and the death of democracy and attack on sacred democracy, is that set if Trump does not pardon some of the January 6th?
Or all of the January 6th people, does that lock the narrative in into history?
Like this was an attack on democracy and that's going to be what settled.
And how big of a factor in kind of the culture war is the January 6th narrative overall?
Is this a big deal because we need some modern heroes?
Is this a smaller deal given Trump is tackling other things?
Where do you think we rank the narrative and mythology coming out of January 6th?
And how much does it relate to kind of some of the other goals that the dissident right has right now overall?
Well, it's a hard question to answer.
It's kind of like the apocryphal episode where the Chinese Communist Party Premier Zhao Enlai Nixon asked him what he thought of the French Revolution.
And he said, it's too early to tell.
Now, that story actually isn't true, but it's a good story, right?
It's too early to tell because it's tied to the Overton window, but the Overton window is a narrow political.
Question, basically, what at this moment is the acceptable range of political discourse?
The question of how history will view something is both hard to say, particularly in a fragmenting polity such as ours, and it's hard to say over time.
I mean, you're no doubt familiar with a couple months ago, Darryl Cooper got in trouble because on Tucker he questioned the post war consensus about who's a hero in World War II and other matters related to World War II.
But that's a sign that he's.
The fact that that was done and that it got a lot of kind of traction suggests that the history that we've kind of all been forced down our throats for the past 30 or 40 years, which is different than the kind of immediately post World War II history, it's hard to say what it's going to be.
And since certainly if the left were to emerge triumphant in America, the narrative of January 6th would kind of over the next decades be set as the kind of risible narrative that they've tried to put together.
Over the past four years.
But as you say, it's been four years, and it's pretty obvious that narrative has not gained traction.
I mean, certainly it's gained traction.
It's complete within a certain epistemically closed set of people, the people on the left.
But by the same token, there are large numbers of people who just reject that narrative.
In order for a narrative to kind of have common currency that is to be accepted by essentially everybody in the society, that's a historical process that depends on a variety of things, including the people writing the history having control over the history.
And one of the things we see with technology is that that's increasingly.
Or rather, it's increasingly impossible to have lies be established as a narrative.
I mean, you can have a narrative about the statistics related to copper mining from 1950 to 2020.
I mean, that's not going to be changed by the internet.
But it's very difficult now for the truth not to come out.
And of course, at the same time, that also means that there's more fragmentation.
It also means that people who are legitimately crazy, the reptiles are ruling us, kind of thing.
Also, are able to get more of a voice.
But again, back to the 1980s, I find myself as I've entered my 50s now.
I sound like that old guy now, but I'm like back in the 80s.
But back in the 80s, if you were not regarded as pure enough or there was something wrong with you with National Review, and you worked for National Review, Buckley destroyed you.
But if you just didn't appear in the pages of National Review, you had no platform to talk to other people about.
Right wing things other than mimeographing, if anybody remembers what a mimeograph is, mimeographing your bi weekly newsletter and mailing it to people who had somehow heard about you.
And that made it possible to create completely lying narratives.
And everybody knows that, or can feel in his bones, that huge segments of what we've been told our whole lives as history is partial or complete lies.
Some of that has been exposed, some of it hasn't.
But I think in the future, it's going to be very difficult to maintain that level of control over what the narrative about a historical event is.
Existing Laws Used In New Ways00:07:34
So, paradoxically, though, I generally would be happier if the internet were turned off.
I think it's a net negative.
The one thing that the internet does and associated technological things is it makes it extremely difficult to control this narrative.
Yes, it's true, this seems particularly spectacular right now because Elon Musk has opened up X, Justin Trudeau is getting canned, and Keir Starmer.
Is like fleeing for his life because people, his association with rape gangs has been exposed for the whole world.
But even without that platform, people would still be able to get much more access to the truth than they could in the past.
So, and given that right wing is basically correlated nearly 100% with reality based, I would expect to answer your question in kind of a long and roundabout way that the history of the future will be written in a right wing friendly way, not because the right wing is controlling the narrative, but simply because it reflects reality.
Yeah, that's good.
All right, we're going to go to our last commercial break for the day and then we'll come back with some concluding thoughts.
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Okay, Charles, if you're still with us, I just wanted to give it to you for some concluding thoughts and then we're going to go ahead and round out the episode.
But the first thing that I want to say, last thing I want to say is.
Thank you so much for your time today.
We appreciate everything that you've written on this topic.
You, like Wes said, you were one of the first guys to come out publicly when everybody on the right, including myself, I was like, oh, I don't know if I want to touch that.
That doesn't seem, you know, it just, yeah, it just did not seem like a winner.
But you were there.
And with hindsight, hindsight always, you know, provides more clarity, but, or usually does.
And I've been able to see why it matters, why it can't just be ignored, not just for moving forward, but, but, Like you brought up, you know, before we brought you on, we had kind of the same connection of the post war consensus with January 6th.
And we don't want January 6th to be etched, you know, enshrined into, you know, the collective memory of our nation to become its own little national version of the post war consensus where everybody says, well, we can't have, you know, we can't have Christian nationalism or whatever you want to call it.
You know, we can't have Christian government, Christian rulers because, you know, January 6th will happen.
Just like people still to this day are like, well, the last time you had somebody who cared about nationalism.
And use religious language, you know, it was Adolf Hitler.
So we've got to be able to move past it.
And I think one of the ways that you move past it is you have to not let the parasite, the virus, entrench itself.
Dig it up before it gets too deep out of the consciences of people.
And so I wanted to ignore it, definitely in 2021, wanted to ignore it.
But you didn't.
I'm glad you didn't.
So thank you for coming on the show and thank you for exercising some courage.
Any final thoughts on the topic, Joel?
Sorry, I want to, Mr. Haywood, sorry to interrupt.
Just with your legal background, there was one particular thing that, The three of us can't really speculate on.
And so maybe if you know, as you answer Joel's question, have there been any legal precedents that are now being built on some of the imprisonments and mock fake trials that have happened with some of the January 6th protesters in the same way that in the past legal precedent was built on some of the civil rights action?
Have any actual legal precedents been started to be erected around this sort of situation with January 6th?
No, because the issue with the persecution of the January 6th protesters is primarily that existing systems and existing laws are being used in new ways, which doesn't necessarily establish a precedent, except in kind of a tactical sense.
So, almost all and maybe all of the statutes that are used to prosecute the claimed violation of which are used to prosecute these people have never been used in that way before, which is a function of.
Federal criminal law being unbelievably voluminous and unbelievably vague.
And historically, people have relied on people, meaning the American people, have relied on the kind of neutrality and discretion of prosecutors to properly use those laws to charge people who have engaged in actual criminal wrongdoing.
And that they, of course, have upended this to do the exact opposite.
I mean, it's no different than 1930s show trials.
I mean, the communists, the constitution of the Soviet Union, and the laws of the Soviet Union.
Offered all sorts of hugely important protections for people in all sorts of ways, all of which were completely ignored.
And they simply made up the law as they went along in order to get the enemies of the regime.
This is the standard practice of any modern, tyrannical, totalitarian regime to use the letter of the law, which is so vague, where you have basically an unholy alliance between the prosecutors, all of whom are complete political actors, all of whom should be in prison.
Down to the secretaries in the U.S. Attorney's Office, everybody should be in prison for long periods.
Everyone associated in any way with any of this should go to prison using these same laws.
You can turn about fair play, but it's been combined with the judges.
And D.C., all these cases are held in D.C., which is a notoriously corrupt and evil judicial system entirely controlled by the left.
So you can do anything you want with that without actually changing precedents per se.
The criminal law doesn't work on the basis of precedence in the way constitutional law does.
So it's not really setting precedence, but the activity itself is, you could say, it's setting a pattern if the left has power in the future for exactly the same things they would do.
But those things aren't new, fresh, or original.
Stalin was doing them too.
So it doesn't require a lot of originality.
It just requires evil.
And that's what these people are.
And so they should be severely punished in case I haven't mentioned that 800 times.
We'll see.
So, I mean, I'll just let that be my final statement.
Severe Punishment For False Teachers00:03:33
And I don't mean it to sound, I think it's important to realize that people don't like to be negative.
And it ties back to something Joel said earlier that it's tied to the hyper feminization of our discourse.
We need to be kind and generous.
And we won't talk about it.
We'll do it, and we'll make sure they know so that they're terrified.
But we won't talk about it a bunch.
We'll talk about how democracy is important while we destroy the lives of these people.
So I think it's important to focus on things that men regard as normal.
Like, we're having a conflict.
We're going to resolve this conflict.
We're going to resolve this conflict finally.
And we're not going to pretend we're doing anything other than resolving this conflict because that's a weenie way to approach life.
But a weenie way to approach life, most of what American discourse is about.
So we should talk about punishment just as much as we talk about.
Justice for the victims of January 6th.
Amen.
Awesome.
And that's, you've said this, I've said this, Stephen Wolfe has said this, you know, in the epilogue of his book, The Case for Christian Nationalism.
But we are a country that is female led.
Everybody is either a woman in power or somebody who is woman adjacent.
But that's the only kind of leadership that we currently have.
Worst childless women in most cases.
Correct.
I mean, that's even, I mean, Jenny Vance said it well, childless cat lady.
Yeah, exactly.
And didn't back out his credit.
Right.
Yeah.
Good on him.
But as long as that's the case, then a lot of what you're going to have is the worst of the worst, the most vile of the population that is willing to be crafty and deceitful and do their deeds of wickedness in darkness, but paint on a smile and use flowery kinds of language.
Like, I think I'll just, you know, everybody knows I'm patriarchal and not a fan of women in leadership.
So, you know, but I'll say it like this the false teachers.
In the first century, in the early first century Christian church, the Bible is explicit.
The primary audience that they were winning were women.
The Bible says that these false teachers creep into weak willed women's homes and lead them astray.
And they do so.
The false teachers, this is the, it's so ironic.
I mean, anybody with an open Bible should be able to get this.
But the false teachers, you know, people are like, you're being divisive, you're being divisive, you're harsh, or you're, you're, You're a reviler, you're this or you're that.
But when you look at the New Testament, the bad guys are almost always described as the ones who have the flowery language, the soft, smooth speech.
And their primary target audience is the wives, the women, because they fall for it.
This is definitely true, but it's exacerbated as well by, and this is something that was true throughout the 20th century, for some reason, Many of the worst, most sadistic exercises in the 20th century, both in Nazi Germany and in the Soviet Union or in the Soviet satellites at various death and torture camps, while there were not a high percentage of women involved as torturers and guards there, the women who were, were always regarded as among the worst.
Taking Our Audience Seriously00:09:08
And you see this, for example, like the prosecution of Douglas Mackey, the guy who was prosecuted for memes.
I don't know, I can't remember the exact specifics, but basically, That was cooked up by a lesbian assistant U.S. attorney who may or may not have been the lover of the U.S. attorney as something cooked up and held in readiness for the moment Biden became president and they get the green light from the Justice Department to engage in this nakedly political persecution.
I mean, these are extremely bad people who, in a different way, would be perfectly happy, no doubt, to physically torture someone like Douglas Mackey.
It's just that that's not something that's.
Currently permitted in America.
But if the political situation changed, those same people would do the exact same things almost certainly.
In a heartbeat.
Yep.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Yeah, no, we should not forget that and we should play accordingly.
All right.
Well, I hope to see you again soon.
Thanks for coming on the show, Charles.
Talk to you soon.
All right.
Okay, Michael and Wes, I'm going to give it to you guys.
I'll land the plane at the very end.
But what do you guys think?
Any final thoughts for today?
January 6th, Charles Haywood, female leadership.
We got to, we got to, Uproot January 6th so it doesn't become the next national post war consensus, the whole nine yards.
So let's give our concluding thoughts.
I'll put my money where my mouth is.
I was there.
So at the time, it was in between semesters in school.
And Trump said, Hey, I want everyone to be there as constituents, as citizens of America to come support me.
And so I was there.
I showed up.
I left the city about 1 30.
I didn't go to the Capitol.
I didn't trespass.
So there's nothing illegal.
And even still, me saying this, I could get some reprisal for it.
But we connected.
We said they're heroes.
Really, they were the salt of the earth SBC type of people.
Not every single one, of course.
There were some, you know, the Proud Boys, different groups.
You can't sign on for every single one of them.
But there were so many people.
I remember Christian music playing, Amazing Grace being sung, Christian flags there.
Like these were salt of the earth, people who loved their nation.
They were gathered because legitimate injustice had been done to them.
And it's funny because, in a way, they saw what was coming.
What they were trying to prevent were the tens of millions of illegal and legal immigrants that have flooded our nation that are going to be really hard to get out over these next four years.
It's not going to be easy.
Inflation.
I saw something like 80% of our money supply right now has been printed in the last five years.
I've heard that.
Your grandchildren's future has been destroyed.
And there were some good people that were there.
And they said, we don't want that to happen.
They couldn't see it.
They couldn't know everything.
They couldn't put words to it, but they had a feeling and they were dead on and they were correct.
And people like me went there to support because we felt the same thing.
A presidency of Joe Biden, four years of left control, is going to be awful.
My son was born that year, my first son.
And in that four years, the future, a good future for him, became exponentially worse.
So praise God for the people.
They were there.
They didn't know all the future, they didn't know all the parts of it, they couldn't quite articulate it.
They said, We don't want that.
We want a better nation, and we're going to show up.
Some of us take suffer significantly for trying to stop something wicked from being done.
Yeah.
In the article that we read that Haywood wrote earlier, he mentioned a book called Crowds or the Crowd or something like that.
And it is true that a crowd on its own can get out of control.
There's a logic and a fervor that overtakes a crowd.
But, Wes, what you're talking about.
Was a collective consciousness among salt of the earth people.
And I think that a lot of the conflict between the elite and the populace, even the Christian elite, over the last five, 10 years is the fact that Christian elites and Christian thinkers, and certainly the left, the elites on the left and on the right, the rhinos, they can't account for and they can't even really argue against the collective consciousness of a people that says something is wrong.
We cannot put our finger on what it is.
We don't have the education or the rhetoric or whatever it is to articulate everything that is going on, but something is wrong.
And insofar as January 6th represents a gathering of people who are just saying, look, we just want someone to take us seriously.
We just want someone to say, you think something is wrong?
That is valuable enough, that's worth enough in a republic for us to say, okay, we'll hear you out.
We'll look into it.
We will give you a fair hearing.
But what was so frustrating for people at that time was that at no point were they getting a fair hearing, right?
At no point was anyone taking them seriously.
And I think it's going to be what Charles Haywood said about technology and how the narrative can no longer be controlled, I think is interesting.
I think that it will further highlight and increase the.
Well, it's what we talked about with Anans a few weeks ago.
Maybe individually, but go ahead.
The anons individually, maybe you don't have a lot of credence behind just one anonymous account on Twitter.
But that also represents kind of a groundswell of hey, guys, like there's hundreds of us, there's thousands of us.
We all can identify something, right?
And so I actually think in that sense, January 6th might represent kind of a larger, the rise of the collective consciousness because of things like social media, the internet, and the collective voice that can get out there.
I think it's going to be fascinating.
To see how that dynamic continues to affect American politics, the American church, all of that.
On the note to a facing constituents, at the end of the war, as I was doing research, a bunch of officers came to George Washington and they were pissed about wages.
They were like, we had this with hell.
You didn't have the money to pay.
And it was close to a mob.
And Washington came up to them and he talked, reasoned them through.
And they actually all left ashamed that they came there begging for money, trying to get their due because he sat down like a leader does and said, You have some concerns.
And I hear you.
You agreed to these wages.
They haven't been paid yet.
Here's how it can work out.
That's what leaders do.
And not a single representative, when the Capitol Police let many of them in, came to the hallway and said, You've got questions.
Let me talk to you.
Let's work through them together.
Imagine how different the day would have gone.
Man, someone listened to me.
Someone heard me out.
I had this to say and they really took it seriously.
Well said.
All right.
Well, happy January 6th.
Merry January 6th.
I don't know.
We'll have to get back to you on the proper way to say it.
But God bless the Patriots.
And let's pray that for those who have been wrongfully imprisoned, they would be able to be released and that restitution and justice would be done.
Those who have been wrongfully imprisoned should not only be released, but they should be financially compensated.
And all those who are involved in And committing the injustice against these individuals should have severe consequences.
Severe enough, it should be just according to biblical standards.
But if it's according to biblical standards, then it will be severe.
The Bible deals out specifically for everything we've been talking about the friend enemy distinction, sending a message to those who do vile and wicked things so that they wouldn't persecute further the righteous.
These are all biblical principles.
The Bible literally says that justice should be proportional, it should be swift, it should be blind and partial.
And in being proportional, it is severe.
It's exactly as severe as the crime that was initially committed.
And all of that for the purpose of thwarting off future potential evil.
That's the purpose.
It's not just setting things right, but it's also preventing future wrongs.
The Bible even says explicitly that when justice is delayed, then evil permeates, that more people say, hey, you know what?
You can do evil in this context and get away with it.
I think I'll do some evil too.
And so, for the sake of first the glory of God and his kingdom, but secondly, for the good of his people, for the good of Christians, and at a lesser extent, but still for the good of all image bearing people, even if they're not Christians, but who are not in an outward sense doing wicked, vile things to their fellow image bearers, for the sake of all people, innocent in that criminal sense, in a judicial sense, innocent.
Then, yeah, I hope that the perpetrators of these crimes, wrongfully imprisoning people and lying through the media about January 6th and what actually happened, I hope that they're all severely punished.
So, a merry, very merry January 6th to first and foremost, God fearing Christians, secondly, American patriots, and thirdly, a very merry January 6th to all those who, by God's grace, will soon rot in jail.