Jeremy Carl and Pastor Joel Webbin dissect the "war on whiteness," citing Walmart's rejection of Carl's book, the doubling of self-identified Native Americans since 2010, and legal doctrines like Griggs v. Duke Power. They contrast the left's strategic use of radicals with the right's tendency toward being "beautiful losers," noting Carl would vote for Trump despite theological disagreements. The discussion highlights Elon Musk's acquisition of X as a tool to amplify conservative voices, urging listeners to buy The Unprotected Class on Amazon to shift the Overton window and combat perceived anti-white racism in America. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Christianity vs Whiteness Hostilities00:15:09
All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
In this episode, I'm privileged to welcome to the show, for the first time, Jeremy Carl.
Jeremy Carl just wrote a book that actually has had a decent reception, maybe a little bit surprisingly positive.
But the book, ordinarily, just from the title, you would think is perhaps a little controversial.
It's called The Unprotected Class How Anti White Racism Is Tearing America Apart.
He's dealing with A war, not necessarily a hot literal war, but a cold war that has been going on for a while in America against white people, that there really is an anti white discrimination.
So, we're talking about the war on whiteness.
Is this war on whiteness really just a war on Christianity, or are there two wars?
A war on Christianity, war on whiteness, side by side, overlapping in some parts.
All these kinds of things.
The evidences what are your evidences that you actually lay out in the book that proves your case that there is an anti white discrimination?
This is what we discuss, as well as solutions.
And predictions.
It's a fun episode.
I hope you enjoy.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries.
And in this episode, I'm privileged to welcome to the show Jeremy Carl.
Jeremy, thanks for coming on.
Thanks so much for having me, Joel.
I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
Me too.
So, real quick, give a little bit of background.
What do you do for work right now?
Where have you been?
Where are you going?
Sure.
So I'm a senior fellow at the Claremont Institute, which is a big public policy think tank.
It's actually based out of California and Texas, kind of the headquarters, but I work out of my home in Montana.
Prior to that, I served in the Trump administration.
I was a deputy assistant secretary of the interior.
The president also later appointed me to the National Board of Education Sciences.
And prior to that, I worked for many years at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University as a research fellow, and that's a conservative public policy think tank.
And, you know, I have a record going back further than that, but that's probably good enough for our discussion today.
Great.
So, the main reason that we're having you on the show is because you wrote kind of just a vanilla, bland book, no controversy at all, you know, just basically suggesting that there might be a smidge of racial prejudice against white people, right?
I imagine the feedback has been just a universal applause.
How's that been going for you?
It's actually, you know, surprisingly, ironies aside, it's been surprisingly good.
And it's interesting because I've been hit.
From the left a lot before.
I mean, when I was in the administration, the Washington Post, among others, and several members of Congress expressed their displeasure with my existence.
So I figured that as soon as I released my book, The Unprotected Class How Anti White Racism is Tearing America Apart, that I would get an avalanche of criticism.
And I'm sure that the left is just kind of putting together the dossier to hit me.
But actually, the great thing has been it's been reviewed both in formal reviews and in customer reviews.
Kind of shockingly good feedback.
And I like to think because I know that this was a sensitive subject.
And so it was provocative enough.
I really tried to stick with a just the facts, ma'am type approach.
I've got like almost a thousand references in there and I didn't try to exceed my brief, I just made my case.
And so I think it's a little bit hard to hit.
And so that's been actually a really pleasant surprise.
Good.
Well, let's start with the facts.
What are some of the things that you lay out in the book as evidences that they're actually not even just in a social cultural sense, but on the books, maybe legally or maybe standards for universities or SAT scores?
What are some of the actually etched out on paper biases against white people in America?
Yeah.
Well, let me kind of give you, I'll kind of start out with the formal things and sort of the way my book is structured.
And then I'll get into a couple informal things that I think sort of illustrate it nicely.
So, the formal things my book is sort of structured that I kind of give a lay of the land.
I then talk about existing civil rights laws because I think it's very hard to have this conversation without at least a little bit of familiarity with that.
And then I look at 11 different subject areas and I look at everything from the church to the environmental movement to the military to the healthcare system to big business to immigration.
And for each of these chapters, I kind of sketch out a brief of exactly how anti white racism and discrimination.
I sort of tie that all together.
I then have a chapter where I look at the motivations for people to do that and why I think this is going on, and then make some policy suggestions.
So there's all sorts of formal things.
Again, we can get into this in the conversation, but everything from affirmative action to overt job discrimination, where people are being told, like, you can't, you know, we have this fellowship and it's only for minorities.
This sort of thing is epidemic.
And I kind of document a lot of this.
In the book, but I'll give you kind of two informal things that I think illustrate this very nicely.
And the first is a kind of flight from whiteness that we're seeing in self identification.
So, since the 2010 census, we've had almost a doubling of Native American population according to the census.
And this is, and we had a collapse in the white identifying Hispanic population.
Now, this was not due to the deaths of millions of Hispanics or the fact that.
Native Americans had a big baby boom.
It's because people are increasingly realizing that it is incredibly advantageous to identify as something other than white in America.
And so I document this, I lay it out in a great deal of detail in the book.
And then the second kind of informal thing, which I think kind of just illustrates the cultural zeitgeist a little bit the original title that I had for this book was It's Okay to Be White.
And that was kind of a snappy little title.
And I actually had my editorial kind of directors, they got behind it.
And then we were told by the sales staff, ultimately, after it had been agreed to for months, that, yeah, we can't sell a book with that title in Walmart or Costco.
So you're going to have to change the title.
So you changed it and got back to them and said, all right, fine, I concede.
We'll call it It's Good to Be White in the same way it's good to be black or good to be, you know, because it's more than just okay.
It's not just permissible.
God made you this way.
It's wonderful.
So it's good to be white.
And that's what you went with?
That's what we could have done.
But you've hit on the core thing, right?
Which is, of course, it's okay to be black.
It's okay to be Hispanic.
It's okay to be Asian American.
But when you say it's okay to be white in our current context, our current cultural context, this is a provocation.
You know, I might as well put on my KKK hood.
And so I think that tells you a lot about where the culture is today.
Yeah, great point.
Here's a question.
So, this is a conversation that's been going on a little bit on Twitter and, you know, behind the scenes privately between conservative evangelical pastors.
And so, some of my friends and peers and then even mentors, we all recognize that there is a war.
Culturally, politically, and I'm not saying it's a hot war in the same way that people talk about a cold civil war versus a hot war.
So I'm not saying that it's gotten to that point.
Praise God.
Not yet.
Hopefully never.
But there is a hostility and a growing hostility on white people, white America.
And the crux of the argument where people kind of find themselves on either side of the aisle disagreeing is is this war on white people, for lack of a better phrase, Is it synonymous with just a war on Christianity?
Is this really just the world as a whole having a sense of hostility towards Western civilization, which is predominantly white, but just really to move it away from just pigment or lack thereof?
Is it a global war on Western civilization out of some sense of, you know, the neo Marxist, right?
Instead of, you know, Elon Musk tweeted this out a while back.
It's basically the opposite of, instead of the Darwinian might makes right, so the strong, you know, strength.
Equals morality.
It's the opposite.
It's weak makes right.
So if you're weaker, you could be as sinister as all get out.
But so long as you're little and you're picking on someone bigger than you, the person bigger than you could have all the virtues imaginable and you could actually be a complete degenerate.
And yet, right now, in a Marxist kind of leaning thought process in society, people just naturally go with the underdog.
They just immediately assume that this must be the innocent one, the oppressed one that, you know, Weak makes right.
So, my point is, is this war, if we could call it that, this hostility, animus against white people, could we call it a war on Western civilization?
Number one.
And then number two, could we call that a war on Christianity?
Because most Western countries are predominantly, or at least historically, have been Christian.
And from that, have experienced, I believe, the Christian worldview lends towards, maybe not in one generation, but over centuries, that.
That following Christ and submitting to his law and loving him and making disciples, that it lends towards blessing.
That's not a prosperity gospel.
But I would say, I would add the caveat following Christ, obeying his law always leads towards blessing in the life to come and ordinarily leads towards blessing in the temporal world as well.
We've seen that over centuries.
So is there this weak against the strong in Western civilization because of his Christian faith has been strong and blessed and then therefore there's an envy?
The other alternative is Are there two wars side by side, like a Venn diagram, but most of these two circles overlap, like 90% overlap, but there is a distinct war on Western civilization and a distinct war on Christianity, two separate wars, but with a lot of overlap?
Or do you see them as one in the same?
Yeah.
Wow.
I mean, there's a lot to tackle in that, and I'll see if I can get to kind of all of it.
But I think that there is an element of this, and I think it's good that you've sort of separated them into different wars because I think that there are.
Different things going on.
So there's an element about this that is disliking Western civilization, hating the church, absolutely.
But when we've got folks like Jamar Tisbee kind of doing effectively critical race theory in very prominent ways in evangelical circles, I think it's too simplistic to say, well, this is about the church.
And I don't know if you've read Vodi Bakum's book, Fault Lines, which is one that I refer to a lot in my own book.
But I think he really kind of diagnoses a lot of this, and particularly.
This strong versus the weak and everything as a form of Christian heresy, really, that has crept in to the church that is fundamentally just incompatible with Christian doctrine and this notion that you have.
I mean, we all, again, I'm a Calvinist.
So, I mean, we all are inherently sinful from my view, but that is not conditioned on our race.
It's conditioned on our humanity.
And we don't have any special guilt because of our race.
So that's why I think it does, when you look internal to the church and you see all this going on.
I think it's too simple to say that this is just coming from a hatred of Christianity.
And I think another kind of data point in that favor is I think a lot of what we're seeing right now in the anti Israel protests in these universities is fundamentally downstream of anti whiteness.
So, I mean, yeah, there's probably some Arab protesters there who really just don't like Jews, but the nice middle class American young women who are sitting in those protest camps are not doing so.
Because they read Der Sturmer and the autobiography of Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, and they were somehow influenced by them.
It's because they're seeing the Israelis, who are, of course, Jews, they're prosperous, they're Western, they're white, and therefore they're oppressors.
And the Palestinians, who are brown, and again, this is their taxonomy.
Obviously, if you go to Israel, you don't see this is not really the case, and therefore they're oppressed.
And so that's why I think that really whiteness is kind of driving the train here, and we need to be honest about that.
Amen.
Yeah, so I completely agree.
And I've landed on that side of it.
I threw out two options.
I fleshed the first one out much more thoroughly.
But at the end there, I said the second option is two distinct wars, not one in the same.
War on whiteness is war on Christianity, but a war on whiteness and a war on Christianity with a lot of overlap, but still two distinct battles going on.
And that's the position that I've landed on.
And I have some pastor friends, and they really are friends, guys who I have learned a ton from, respect immensely, and love immensely.
But I appreciate that you brought up Israel because I think that that's actually a good case study that proves that these two hostilities against Christianity and against whiteness, for lack of a better word, are distinct.
They're two separate things because, you know, one of my friends that I greatly respect, a pastor, he said that the hostility towards Israel is because he lumped it into, yes, of course, Talmudic Judaism is not Christianity, but it's Christian adjacent.
And so, you know, he used a phrase, he said, you know, they're.
You know, there are plenty of perversions in the Talmud and this and that and the other.
And they've, you know, the whole religion in many ways it does rest on the central focus of a rejection of Christ as the Messiah.
That's one of the core tenets of Judaism, is we are not Christian.
He said, but their Torah observance, which is the Old Testament, you know, that gives off a whiff of Christ.
And so the reason, and that's the phrase he used, was a whiff of Christ.
And so he said, the reason why people are against Israel is that still because the war is, there's not two wars, whiteness and Christianity, there's one war.
It's against Christianity, and the hostility towards Israel is because they're also lumped in as Christian adjacent.
Whereas I feel like it's a lot easier to argue that Israel, if the hostility towards Israel, number one, I think Israel is perfectly capable of garnishing enemies all on their own, just for themselves.
Number two, and that's a longer conversation that we don't have to go into, but number two, if there's any kind of tandem latching on, I feel like it would be that Israel, although they don't necessarily have every Jew having white skin, I think that there's more, it's an easier case to make for Israel being white adjacent than Christian adjacent.
Private Family Banking Wealth Growth00:03:48
That they're lumped in as Westerners, that they're lumped in as the American outpost in the East.
Don't you think?
No, I 100% agree.
And obviously, that's why I brought it up.
I think it's just a compelling refutation of the notion that this is really all about Christianity.
And I've heard the same thing from some pastors.
I'm not nearly as versed in this, obviously, as you are, but I still do pay attention to these debates online and elsewhere.
And I think part of the reluctance to do this in the church is because confronting race within the body of Christ, it's messy, right?
Like, we don't want to.
Have that there.
We want to pretend that we're all just as unified as we can be despite our denominational differences and everything else.
And to kind of understand that there are some people who are really undermining the gospel, maybe not even with malicious intention.
Okay.
I mean, I think most of them not with malicious intention, but fundamentally, like that's what they're doing in promulgating these doctrines about essentialist white guilt and systemic racism and et cetera, et cetera.
You know, we want to pretend that that's not there, but I think unfortunately it is there.
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So, you said as you were kind of outlining for us earlier, this is maybe 15 minutes ago, you were outlining basically the order, the logical order that you laid out your book in.
Challenging The Civil Rights Act00:13:14
And one of the things that caught my attention that you mentioned was that you got to, you tried to spell out, and I'm sure you did it carefully, trying to avoid just outright speculation, but not just evidences of anti white bias, whether it be with universities or what have you, or medicine or whatever, but you also tried to get to motive.
Why?
Could you talk a little bit about that for us?
Yeah, absolutely.
And as I say in the book, Anytime you get into motives, nobody can know the human heart.
So you're obviously engaging in a speculative activity.
So I kind of put that in as a big caveat, even though I marshal, it's not just like, oh, this is my opinion.
I mean, I marshal a ton of evidence in support of it.
But fundamentally, kind of, here's my motive that I would sketch out.
It's really, there are spiritual elements of that.
And although I think they're secondary, they're useful to talk about.
But I think fundamentally, this is a material motive.
And that motive has been.
A motive that we've seen in a lot of human conflicts, most human conflicts over history.
And to oversimplify, whites are at least perceived to have a lot of resources in our society.
They own even American history in a certain way, if you want to talk about that.
Again, I'm oversimplifying.
Other groups want those resources.
But in 2024, you don't come up to somebody and just say, hey, I'm taking your stuff.
That's not seen as acceptable.
So what you have to have is what the mid 20th century sociologist, C. Wright Mills, who's a very famous sociologist, called.
A legitimating ideology.
So, a legitimating ideology is an ideology that you create that justifies kind of doing whatever it is that you want to do, at least in your own mind and to your supporters.
And so, the legitimating ideology is you have all that stuff, white people, because you have white privilege, systemic racism.
We talk about critical race theory.
If you object to that, it's white fragility.
Therefore, justice demands that we take some of your stuff and that that is ultimately the driving motivation.
Of what the conflict is that we're seeing.
And again, I lay out the evidences for that in my chapter.
That, yeah, that has been my inclination as well.
That, you know, Marx and his concept, you know, he primarily rooted it in economic class, you know, and the bourgeoisie, you know, versus the peasant and the working class.
And that just doesn't seem as though it's conducive for a place like America, especially when you think of the 1900s, you know, and the 50s.
When, yes, there is a disparity between rich and middle class, but in a world where the economy has been so strong, the middle class just don't have that much to be angry about.
So it's like, okay, my boss makes more than me, but I still own a home and a car and two weeks of vacation, and kids are playing on the lawn, and I'm just not angry enough to quit my job and riot.
And so, but.
Given America's unique history and its origin, you know, economic class warfare, where everybody who makes less than $60,000 unites despite all their other differences, that probably isn't going to work.
But to make it about race and past injustices, that with America's history, that one that has some explanatory power, that one might work.
And so it's so that's why we, you know, we say neo Marxism because it's it's The same basic concept, but reapplied with different metrics.
And that has seemed to be the play I can't just walk up and say, I want your stuff.
I have to walk up and give a reason, an ideology, a reason why you shouldn't have your stuff and why I should.
And it very much does seem as though that's a lot of what's going on.
So maybe here towards the end, anything else you want to say, leave it all in the field.
That's what I tell my guests leave it all in the field.
But did you get to any solutions in your book?
What do we do?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, nobody wants to just hear somebody.
Complain and say, Oh, you know, well, here, let me tell you how awful things are, and let's just trust in Christ for the next world.
And in this world, it's all completely hopeless.
Now, actually, theologically, that's arguably a defensible proposition, but I do, of course, suggest things that we could do.
So I have six formal and six more informal kind of solutions that I put forth in my book.
I won't go into all of them here just in the interest of time, but I'll give you a few of them.
So A couple of them fall into like, how do we cohere a new American identity that's a more unified identity?
So, the first thing you've got to do is you have to get control of your border, which means you have to kick out every illegal alien that's in the country to the best of your ability.
And you've got to pass strict immigration laws.
Once you do that and you get a little bit of control of the situation, then you can kind of pursue what some scholars would call ethnogenesis.
That would be kind of the fancy word.
Or, a kind of more intuitive word that I kind of like that was used by a multi ethnic Canadian scholar in a recent book named Derek Kaufman is called white shifting.
And what is that?
Well, white shifting is the notion that you've got a lot of groups that we're talking about adjacent, white adjacent, or Christian adjacent in this country.
So, you have groups, very large groups like Hispanics, that are overwhelmingly predominantly of European ancestry, although not universally.
Now, Hispanic is just an artificial category that was created by the left for the 1980 census.
It wasn't, of course, that they didn't have a distinct identity as a people to some degree before then, but we lumped them in.
A lot of them would have kind of considered themselves white at that time.
In fact, even on the census today, still a lot do.
So you take them, and a third of them are marrying non Hispanics, whites.
So you've got lots of cultural mixing going on there.
And I think, are you down in Texas?
Am I remembering that correctly?
So you see a lot of that.
I mean, when I went down to San Antonio about a month or two ago, I mean, I really saw a lot of that kind of.
Mixed majority culture really very visibly in Texas.
But beyond that, you've got Eurasians and other groups that have a lot of affinity for kind of what we're just going to oversimplify and call white culture, or even sort of mono ethnic people who don't have any white background at all, but just kind of feel a great affinity for America's history and traditions.
If you sort of lump all those groups together and you sort of change laws around how people categorize themselves and stop encouraging people to identify as things other than white, You could imagine the development in conjunction with getting control of the border of a new American majority ethnicity.
That's what we call ethnogenesis or white shifting.
So, that's a couple things.
Then, I'd say beyond that, we've got to look at really fundamentally reformulating civil rights laws.
And some of the progenitors of mine who've written in narrower but adjacent areas to this book, I think this book is the most expansive look at these issues that's really ever been done.
But they kind of like to.
Kind of really go after the Civil Rights Act.
And I actually don't do that.
I think it was a very blunt instrument that was used to solve a very real problem in 1964.
But I would say that we are as far away from that as they were from the Wright brothers in terms of timeframe.
And we don't have the problem today of people not being served at lunch counters.
We've got the problem of being told, like, you can't get this job because it's reserved for a non white person.
So we need to restore freedom of association.
We need to kind of basically reformulate in some very fundamental ways our civil rights regime to fit the problems of today.
And I think one of the ways that finally you get there is ultimately lawfare.
And there's some folks, some friends of mine over at America First Legal in DC, which is Stephen Miller's shop.
Stephen Miller was kind of Trump's right hand man at the Domestic Policy Council.
So you basically are taking these things that are being done right now.
There is all sorts of racial discrimination going on against white people that's just facially illegal, hiding in plain sight.
Nobody's really challenged it.
They're now suing over this.
And in most cases, they're winning because they have the law actually on their side.
So I think those are some of the things that I would do to kind of try to address the problems that we're looking at today.
Yeah, that's very helpful.
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
I read, like everybody else in the entire world, we all read Christopher Caldwell in The Age of Entitlement, which was fantastic.
I read that back in, I think, 2021, a couple years after it had come out.
And it was eye opening, it was really helpful.
And I agreed with the majority of what he wrote.
But then later, reading some follow up, different things, I heard some decent cases being made for, well, maybe the Civil Rights Act was not the worst idea in the world, but maybe the worst part about it is that it would just remain indefinitely.
That there was a temporary problem that needed a strong but temporary solution.
But the problem is that what happened is it just lingered and just stayed around forever.
And then all of a sudden, the Civil Rights Act becomes the.
It ends up paving the way for LGBTQ rights and all these other things that were not the point.
So, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm glad that you brought that up because this is, again, something I talk a fair bit about in the book.
So, you have the act and then you have everything that followed on the act.
And I actually think that that's been much more damaging than anything in the act itself.
So, there's a bunch of stuff that the deep state or the administrative state or whatever you want to call it, Latches onto, makes a bunch of rulings that are not in the statute.
And if you go back and actually read the original text of the debates around the statute, it was really clear that they did not intend for anything like that to be in the statute, but they just put it in.
And then you have times where the Supreme Court does really bad things and then actually tries to sometimes correct them only to be shot down.
So the most kind of famous case I write about in my book is Griggs versus Duke Power.
It's a 1971 case that has, you know, average person doesn't know it, but it has huge effects.
On what we do.
And that is where a doctrine called disparate impact is invented out of whole cloth.
And that basically says I'm oversimplifying for any lawyers who are listening, but it says if you have a job hiring process and it winds up with a substantially non identical to your population size hiring result, that it is said to have a disparate impact on the groups that are underrepresented.
And therefore, you have to jump through all these hoops.
To kind of show that there was a big business necessity.
And it doesn't matter, even if there's no intent to discriminate.
And there was no intent on Duke Power's part to discriminate, or at least none was alleged or proved.
The Supreme Court says in 1971, it doesn't matter.
Now, that ruling turns out to be so radical that in 1989, the court does something very unusual, which is they fundamentally kind of walk it back.
They decide in a case called Wards Cove, they basically dramatically raise the threshold that you have to prove discrimination in this case.
And so that should have fixed it.
But at that point, the civil rights groups' establishment freak out the older Bush administration, so not Bush Jr., but his dad.
Who's just kind of a weak sister, unfortunately, although well intentioned in some ways, caves under public pressure and they end up effectively putting Griggs versus Duke power in a statute.
So then it passes as part of a Civil Rights Act of 1991.
And so there's all sorts of follow on things like that that happen that were not part of the original civil rights struggle that have been incredibly destructive in terms of kind of getting rid of racial preferences in this country.
I see.
That's helpful.
Okay.
Well, maybe for the rest of the episode, I would just be curious to hear.
And again, leave it all in the field if there's something you want to go back to or something else from the book that you want to discuss.
But I'm curious to hear you know, we've talked a little bit about evidences of an anti white discrimination.
We've talked a little bit about motives for why.
We've talked a little bit about solutions and how to fix it.
Motives Behind Anti-White Discrimination00:02:54
Maybe predictions could be fun.
Yeah.
What do.
Are we going to get out of this easily?
Or I kind of have the sense that things may get a little bit worse before they get better for America.
And then with that, we're in an election year.
I actually think, by golly, I actually think Trump could win.
And I'm just wondering how much of the country will be left after most of it burns down when the election results are announced.
What do you.
What do you predict?
Let's do it like this.
Let's do short term and then long term, long, you know, relatively long, meaning, you know, 5, 10, 15 years.
But, you know, over the course of this year being election year, what do you see?
How do you see things playing out?
And then over the next 5, 10 years, do we get better with race relations in our country?
Do they get worse?
What are you predicting?
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Conservative Mandates And Political Shifts00:16:30
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Well, the Nobel Prize winning physicist Niels Bohr said, prediction is always difficult, especially about the future.
So I want to.
Caveat everything I say with that.
I don't have a crystal ball.
I can read the Bible and tell you how things will eventually end up, but I don't know in the sort of near term how things are going to end up in America.
But I would say I wrote this book to kind of head off or do whatever small part I can play in heading off a calamity.
And in fact, I kind of end the first proper chapter of the book to say, hey, look, we have a lot of history that we can look at of multi ethnic democracies that start fighting a lot around race.
And it does not end well in 99% of those cases.
So we need to kind of reorient ourselves pretty fundamentally.
I think the good news is that if we play our cards right, there are an increasing number of people who recognize this is a problem and we need to do something.
And you kind of touched at the beginning of our conversation about saying, hey, what was the blowback, et cetera?
And I said, actually, a little less so far than you'd think.
And I actually think that's just even in the time I started writing this book two years ago.
When I kind of first took up a pen, and of course, I'd been thinking about these issues for years.
In fact, I've used the analogy in some other interviews that it was a little bit like Jonah, where God told me to go to Nineveh, and I said, No, no, no, you know, I don't want to preach to them about their sin.
I'm just going to kind of go move to Montana here and mind my own business, et cetera.
And then they sent the fish, and it swallowed me, it spit me up on the beach, and said, Hey, you know, why don't you go to Nineveh?
And I said, Okay, okay, God, you know, I'll do it.
So there's a little bit of that.
I mean, I was reluctant to even Touched this book, which is an idea I'd had for a long time of doing it.
And then finally, two years ago, I just sort of said, okay, you know, it's not being done.
Nobody else has kind of really come forward.
So I'm going to go do it.
But even in the time I've written the book, when I started, I was like, whoa, this tightrope is really narrow and the crocodiles below there look kind of scary.
And as I've gone through to the point of publication, people are saying, wow, this is really well timed.
We've got very mainstream figures on the right.
Like Tucker Carlson and Charlie Kirk, two of the endorsers of the book, or Matt Walsh, who used the term talk about anti white racism pretty freely.
We even have Trump in remarks last week that didn't get a lot of attention, but I'll hopefully be amplifying talking.
He used the term anti white and said, hey, you know, that's not okay either.
So I think the kind of cultural zeitgeist, if you will, around these issues is changing.
And broadly, that's a good thing.
So I think if we've got some people of goodwill, and again, I've got a multi ethnic kind of cast of endorsers of this book.
If we can get them all together, I think we can.
Head off the worst.
On the other hand, and I kind of tend to agree with you that in the short term, it's going to get worse before it gets better.
We're going to have to, there's no way to run away from the conflict.
That's why I wrote this book so directly.
We're going to have to meet force with force.
And I don't mean that in a physical sense, but in a kind of metaphysical sense.
I kind of, again, I use in the book the idea of mutually assured destruction, which is a Cold War analogy.
So that was, you know, the Soviets weren't going to attack us because they knew they'd be obliterated.
So, right now, the racial dynamic is the left just uses racism regularly.
They attack white people and they attack particularly white conservatives with racist things, et cetera, et cetera.
And we kind of tend to respond pretty limply, or at best, we sort of put in ghazi rhetoric about all people being created equal.
What we've got to convince them is white people and people who are allied with equal justice of all races need to make it very clear to the left that when they engage in these types of tactics, It's going to be very politically painful for them.
And I think that's when things stop and not a moment before.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Political will.
We saw that in real time.
We got a front row seat.
We watched it with COVID.
The science didn't change.
The political science changed.
America was done with the mask mandates and the vaccine mandates.
The moment that the American people had nothing to do with the virus changing or going away, we were done the moment that the American people said, okay, we've had enough.
We're done.
Yeah.
And then it was that.
Just like that.
Political will is a very powerful thing.
The problem is that the right, at least the recent right, I think neoconservative right, maybe not paleoconservatives once upon a time, God bless them, wish they were still here, but the neoconservative doesn't have a lot of political will, Jeremy.
I don't know if you're aware of that, but conservatives, I mean, they do have a lot of motivation and energy to do one thing, and that is to seize.
Out of the jaws of victory.
They're like, let's do it.
Even with the protests about Israel on Columbia and different Ivy League colleges and universities, it's like, okay, so there's the leftist LGBT purple haired 22 year old girl for Palestine.
And then there's the Marxist university that hates me and my posterity.
So here's the left and here's the left.
You know, it's like we finally got them.
Like they're getting themselves, they're shooting themselves, and the right's like, not if I can help it, let us step in and save our enemy.
Like, I'm like, what is going on?
I just, I don't get it.
I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean, both with the specific example that you just cited, where I'm in that meme that you'll sometimes see on the internet of let them fight, you know?
Yeah, let them fight.
Yeah.
We don't need to get involved in this at all.
And it's to my great frustration that we are.
I'm also just frustrated, of course, with the spinelessness and weakness of our elected leadership to begin with, with obviously some honorable exceptions.
Folks who are familiar with Claremont know that we've really been on the leading edge of the fighting.
Of all the think tanks that would be anywhere near respectability in the country, I think we are unquestionably the most hard edged and willing to kind of engage in those fights.
And I'll give you a trivial example.
From COVID, which you just cited, when suddenly people decided that it was enough and it changed.
A judge, you know, the airlines just kept doing those mask mandates forever.
And a young federal judge who'd been trained in Claremont's programs, who's 34, I think she's the youngest woman on the federal bench, kind of said, no, you know what?
Like she gave a long constitutional ruling, very smart.
I think she was like a Yale law grad or something, but this is not constitutional.
Mask mandates are over.
And as soon as that ruling came down, All of a sudden, everybody kind of did the right thing, which they kind of wanted to do anyway.
Right.
Which I think also points out the importance of political leadership because that one thing in that area just flipped things and every airline got rid of their mask mandate.
So that's the sort of leadership that we need.
I agree.
So we need political will, we need leadership, we need courage.
What you're describing is leaders stepping out on the front lines.
And then often, not always, sometimes you stand up alone, right?
Sometimes you're Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and it's like, Yeah, you stand up and, like, all right, everyone stand up with us, you know, and no, it's just the three of you.
And, um, yeah, and maybe God saves you, maybe he doesn't.
Um, but, but often, or at least, you know, at least a decent amount of the time, you stand up and you find out there's a bunch of other people who are thinking the same things.
They just didn't have the courage to say it out loud.
So, so there really is that.
Uh, but there's, I think, one other piece in terms of winning cultural battles.
Um, there's a lot of players, you know, I think of like a chessboard, you know, and, and, you know, they're, you know, Kings would play chess, you know, and think of it as military strategy and honing their senses and those kinds of things, getting a lay of the land.
There are different pieces on the board.
There are leaders, there are pawns, but there are also pieces that don't, they're not necessarily the leaders.
They're a leader of sorts, maybe, but they're not necessarily the primary leaders, the generals of the army, but they're the ones who are getting out there and taking a ton of.
Of fire, you know, that allows, you know, a whole platoon over here to go and gain cover and strategically position themselves.
They're the people who are maybe a little bit outside the Overton window who are pulling it while there are other guys inside, you know, who are pushing.
And I think we've seen a lot of that since 2020, that we've seen a lot of guys who are a little bit further out there.
It's like, okay, that guy is to my right.
Yeah.
But one of the things, you know, two things.
One, I think the right often hurts itself.
Uh, by not having the political will or not just letting their enemies fight, you know, or you know, like we already said, grasping defeat from the jaws of victory.
But another way is, um, I think the left has a better understanding of uh strategy when it comes to using their radicals, right?
The left, I think, um, is able to use their radicals, and I don't think it's just because you know, if the left didn't have double standards, they'd have no standard at all, or because they have no virtues or they have no principle, no, they do, it's just it's.
It's just in the opposite direction.
Everything they're doing is in their mind, it is virtuous.
They have convictions.
They have an ideology.
They have virtue.
They have all these things.
But they also, I think, have more determination.
They are willing to, they want to win.
And I think the right sometimes is just too committed to be beautiful losers.
You know what I mean?
Absolutely.
And Christians, evangelicals especially, like Trump, he wouldn't be an elder in my church.
I'm not even sure if he'd be able to pass a membership interview, but he will have my vote.
And I make no, and not even with my nose plugged.
I will vote for Trump and I'll sleep really well that night and be just fine with a clear conscience before the Lord, knowing that I don't idolize Trump.
I don't worship Trump.
I'm not even sure if he's a brother in Christ.
I hope he is, you know, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.
But I think that the people on the right, and especially Christians on the right, are unable to think, they're unable to categorize.
They struggle with political theology versus soteriology, you know, or something, you know, and it's just, and that the outcome is just beautiful losers.
It's going down with the ship, you know, while standing in a salute, you know, and just face of Flint.
And what do you think about using, you know, so the concept, no enemies on the right, maybe not to the, you know, but on the right.
Right.
And I think of, you know, the things that I can say today.
If I had said these things in 2017, I like it's over.
I would have been, you know, and the point that you made like, you when you started the book two years ago, you were pretty nervous when it came closer to publication.
You're like, hey, this might land okay, and then and then it landed better than okay.
It sounds like, you know, I mean, sure, you'll get pushed back, but but there's been a large positive reception, and so things have been moved.
But part of the reason they've been moving is because of.
Your strategic radicals.
The left has them.
The right has them.
You don't have to agree with them.
So I'm not saying somebody says something and you have to retweet them and say, Yeah, you know, somebody says Adolf Hitler was the last Christian prince.
Yeah, I agree.
You don't have to do that.
Right.
But the right, we, man, I just, I feel like we shoot our own far more than the left.
Any thoughts on that?
That no enemies on the right kind of political strategy and idea?
No, I absolutely agree.
And you cited the phrase beautiful losers a couple times and perhaps not.
Coincidentally, it's a title of a book of essays by Sam Francis, who was a really powerful conservative political theorist who had a lot of stuff that was outside the Overton window, not even all of which I agreed with, but a person who 30 years ago in that book really kind of diagnosed a lot of the problems that conservatives had their lack of fighting spirit, their kind of fixation on essentially being beautiful losers.
And the subtitle of that was Essays on the Failure of American Conservatism.
So to write that book in 1992, and unbelievably kind of published by a mainstream university press.
At the time that he wrote it, it was indicative that the right has had this problem for quite a while.
And I think absolutely your point is well taken on radicals.
And it's one of the reasons why it was so important.
And I said so at the time, I was even quoted in major news outlets the importance of Elon taking over Twitter, because what it allowed to do is a lot of these voices that are well to my right.
I mean, I'm like, you know, actually, like what I'm asking for is very mainstream here, you know, like I'm not asking for.
Thousand year American Reich, or something really weird, right?
I'm just saying, hey, we should all be treated equally.
But what it actually shows when you have those voices back in the debate, as opposed to being taken off the playing field, as all the other social media sites had done and Twitter had done before Elon bought it, is I can say, hey, look, there are these crazies to the right of me.
And I'm not kidding.
I mean, of course, a lot of them really are kind of crazy.
But the left can see, oh, actually, those people actually have a lot of following.
Maybe this Jeremy guy, he actually isn't so crazy after all.
Maybe we could do business with him because it's a lot more.
Preferable to compromise with somebody who's saying what he is than trying to compromise with the totally crazy nutcase over there on the far right.
And I'm not, of course, saying that everybody to the right of me falls into that description.
There's a lot of good friends of mine who are probably, maybe not that many to the right of me, I'm pretty conservative.
But there's certainly a lot of people out there who certainly have much more radical political prescriptions than I have.
And just even making them visible on X slash Twitter has been.
Enormously helpful.
And again, we just need to get much smarter.
We need to get much tougher.
I kind of echo all your comments about Trump.
And again, it's sort of like Trump loves winning and he hates losing.
And for whatever his moral shortcomings, that matters a lot because the right needs a lot more of that mentality rather than the beautiful loser mentality.
Right.
Okay.
Well, here we are at the end.
Signaling Market Demand For Books00:02:29
Any final thoughts for the listener?
No.
I mean, I just thank you for having me on.
Again, the name of the book.
Is the unprotected class how anti white racism is tearing America apart?
You can find me on x slash Twitter at real Jeremy Carl.
You can find me on Substack.
I have a Substack called The Course of Empire.
And I guess I kind of make the pitch to your listeners.
The book has gotten a great reception.
The sales have been better than I could have possibly hoped for.
So that's been really gratifying.
But even if I hope that you've been, folks have been really swayed by my arguments, but even if you're like, well, I don't know about this element of what he said.
If you buy a book like this, you don't make me rich, unfortunately, if you know anything about the publishing business.
It's pretty marginal for my net worth, but it does send a signal to publishers that, wow, there's a market for people who are interested in this.
We should have more books like this.
And so that way, people like me are not alone out on an island, but we've got more people making these cases in different and hopefully even better ways in the future.
And so these discussions become much more a part of the mainstream and much less something where I'm having to move the Overton window.
So that's what I'm trying to do.
Do.
And I appreciate being able to talk to you about that.
Absolutely.
Well, it was, yeah, we appreciate it.
It's an honor to have you on the show.
In that vein of strategy and signaling to publishers that, hey, the public wants more of this, where would be the best place for them to get your book and to leave a review?
Amazon or Amazon is always best.
Although I would say that if you can leave, certainly to buy, because I think that's where most people are buying.
And then if more people are buying it, more random people just sort of see it on the algorithm.
Right.
So that's good.
But also, certainly, especially for reviews, I've already got a significant number of five star average Amazon reviews.
So if you read the book and like it and want to go on barnesandnoble.com or thriftbooks or whatever, that's fantastic.
And certainly, if you buy on those platforms, that's also fantastic.
Or your local bookstore.
And I think because of the early sales being so good, more and more local bookstores will probably be carrying this.
So buy it wherever you'd like as long as you buy it.
I promise it's not going to add more than.
A few dollars, sadly, to my net worth, but it does get the issue out there.