Steve Dace and Pastor Joel Webbin analyze the impending cultural schism, characterizing Russia as a thugocracy and Ukraine as a Soros-funded kleptocracy used for Western geopolitical leverage. They condemn the church's neutrality on abortion and transgenderism as complicity with rival religions, rejecting identity politics that demand self-hatred while criticizing Republican "rhinos" for prioritizing power over righteousness. Ultimately, they argue that a peaceful national divorce is impossible against non-negotiable worldviews, predicting only a great revival or catastrophic civil implosion awaits America. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Steve's Political Campaign Experience00:02:46
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Thanks.
Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
You're listening to another episode of Theology Applied.
In this episode, I was privileged to have as a special guest Steve Dace from the Blaze Network, and we talk about really a Bunch of stuff.
We talk about Russia and Ukraine.
We talk about a civil war in America.
We talk about a peaceful divorce possible option.
And we talk about ultimately what we hope that the Lord might bring, which is revival and reformation.
I think it's an insightful conversation.
Steve has headed up Ted Cruz and his campaign when he was running for president.
And so the unique thing in having him on the show, and one of the reasons I wanted to have him on the show, is because he has more political expertise, actual experience in that.
Field running campaigns, working in local politics than most of the guests that I have.
So, yes, he has the theological background, and yes, he loves the Lord Jesus Christ and he is a Christian, but he also has not just understanding political matters at a theological, theoretical level, but actually on the ground in these machines pulling levers.
And so, I think you'll be blessed by this conversation and learn a lot.
I know that I did.
Thanks for tuning in.
Applying God's word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right.
Welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
And today I'm very privileged to be joined by Steve Dace.
I'm pretty sure that's how you pronounce it, Steve.
Did I get it right?
Correct.
You did?
Well done.
Correct.
All right.
Steve, go ahead and just introduce yourself to our listeners.
Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Sure.
I host this show on Blaze TV after Glenn Beck each weekday from noon to 2 Eastern.
That you can subscribe to the podcast version or.
The TV version over at blazetv.comslash days.
I've written several books.
My last one, or my second to last one, Fauci and Bargain, the most powerful and dangerous bureaucrat in American history.
That actually went to number one overall on Amazon, where 83% of all American book sales take place every day.
So that's far more indicative of the success of a book than the New York Times completely rigged bestseller list.
One of my books, A Nefarious Plot, about a Satanic Takeover of America is due out in the next six to eight months as a film adaptation.
Christian Culture and Schooling00:06:37
We've already made the movie, it's in post production now.
I used to be a senior strategist for the Ted Cruz for President campaign.
I think that's probably what, other than utilizing a biblical worldview as much as I do, I think probably the thing that sets our show apart from a lot of others in this industry is I've actually done the nuts and bolts of politics.
I've worked on campaigns from school board all the way to president.
So I kind of know the process and not just the The ideological aspect of it.
I've been married.
My wife and I just celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary.
We have three kids.
Anastasia is our oldest.
She's 21.
And then I've got two more kids still in school.
Zoe is 16.
She's about to be a junior in high school.
She's still homeschooled.
And then my youngest, Noah, is 15.
He just finished his freshman year and he goes to Des Moines Christian here in town.
I don't know what else you guys want to know, but that's a No, that's great.
So, I guess the only other question I have for you is Has Anastasia considered changing her name since we're boycotting all things Russian?
I'm thinking of the movie.
You know what I mean?
Like, is she, what is she going to do about that to be politically correct?
Well, she's actually, my wife's a Russian history buff.
Okay.
And was always fascinated with what happened with the Zarina Anastasia and all the conspiracy theories and everything surrounding that.
And so, Anna, that's actually that and the prophetess Anna from the Bible, and then a member, an aunt of hers.
So she gets that name, actually.
That's part of how she got the name Anastasia.
But no, we won't be changing her name because.
Might have been Russian once.
Amen.
Yeah.
It's so funny.
I feel like, you know, I'm not a fan of Putin, but I am a fan of nationalism.
I would, you know, I guess I'm a Christian nationalist because I believe that America is a good nation.
I like it to continue.
I want to have a Christian worldview.
I think that the Bible applies to politics and all these different things.
And I do happen to be a white cisgendered male.
So I'm a Christian nationalist by default.
So I appreciate Putin in the sense that I have to be careful with my words here, but in the sense that he is, it's You know, he has that national mindset instead of the global mentality, you know, the whole global forum and everything.
But with the whole narrative with Ukraine and Russia, I just keep thinking that it keeps, I keep seeing the scene in my head from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe where Diggory Kirk, you know, the professor that the kids are staying with when dad's out in the war and mom's gone.
And it's after, you know, Lucy has been now to Narnia twice.
And the second time Edmund went with her.
And then they come back and she's like, oh, it's so great because finally now you can vouch for me.
You can give me credibility because you've been to Narnia too.
And so they run to, you know, Peter and Susan, tell them, Edmund, tell them, you know.
And Edmund says, Oh, little girls, you know, they love to pretend.
And she's just distraught because it's just, it's not just mocking her, but it's this deep betrayal from her brother.
And the older, you know, siblings, Peter and Susan, they go to Diggery and they sit down, they're talking to Diggery.
And he says, What do they teach in typical C.S. Lewis fashion?
What do they teach in school these days?
Do they not teach logic, you know?
And they're like, Well, yeah, they teach logic.
And that's why we don't believe in this magical world in a wardrobe.
And he says, Well, so.
So, Edmund, he's usually the truthful one.
And they're like, well, this would be the first.
And Lucy, she's prone to lying.
Well, she's clearly not mad.
You know, so see his classic liar, lunatic, lord argument.
She's not mad.
She's not a lunatic and she's not prone to lie.
So, the logical thing is to assume that she's telling the truth.
And so, I just think of our legacy media, you know, with COVID and everything that's been going on.
And I'm like, yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Putin, but it's probably at least, if nothing else, at minimum, it can't be this simple because all you guys ever do is lie.
What are your thoughts, just out of curiosity, on the Ukraine, Russia kind of?
Ordeal?
I think that in general, I think American and Western Christians, but particularly American Christians, because we are the, in the 2000 year history of the church and Western civilization, which was originally established post Constantine and then became known originally as Christendom and then Western civilization.
It was essentially created by the Catholic Church and then post Dark Ages was essentially.
Resurrected, pardon the pun, by the Protestant Reformation.
This is the first time here in America that we have a country that was directly inspired to some degree.
We can debate to which degree, but was at least to some degree directly inspired by the Christian worldview.
And so I think because of that, and in fact, my next book will actually be a children's book.
We're going to start a children's book series on America's Christian heritage.
And we're going to start it from the very beginning.
The first children's book that we'll put out this fall will be about the pilgrims and the true origin of Thanksgiving and who the Puritans really were and why they really came and those sorts of things.
And so I think because of that, I think we are more tempted to fall into a binary choice fallacy than any previous generation of believers.
Prior to the establishment of America, the binary choice that most Christians faced was twofold.
A, Survive or not, meaning I was under some form of persecution.
So I would survive or not.
Or B, the typical Christian temptation to deny my Lord or not.
And that doesn't mean necessarily, it can mean that, but it doesn't have to mean on some cosmic grand scale before a king.
It could just mean in my decision to sin or not.
Okay.
And I think because we are birthed in a culture that, even though it is largely post Christian and secularized, and Completely co opted by what I call the spirit of the age, which is really just my term for the physical manifestations of the demonic influences at work in our culture today.
You still see the names and titles and relics of the value system we were founded on, right?
Like the Iowa Lutheran Hospital, where I was born 48 years ago, still exists here in Des Moines, right?
St. So and so's Hospital or Orphanage or Children's Clinic still exists in most cities in America.
Those relics are still there.
War, Money, and Kleptocracy00:08:35
I think that there's this notion that therefore this is a Christian culture.
And so therefore everything kind of falls into a binary choice of good or evil or lesser of two evils or just evil.
And I think that the true way to see the world from a Christian worldview is with the nuance.
It's the classic seminary question Is God transcendent or imminent?
Yes, is the answer.
He is both.
Okay.
And so has Vladimir Putin committed atrocities?
Yes.
Has Vladimir Putin violated God given or human rights?
Yes.
So that means Ukraine is good then?
Well, that's the way the world worked.
And I, you know, hey man, I'm a we're an America suck it kid from the 80s.
I get it.
Okay.
There was us in the Soviets.
I understand not wanting to let go of that simple view of the world, but it's just not that simple.
Ukraine is a kleptocracy, it's one of the most corrupt regimes in the world.
Real quick, define kleptocracy.
It's just run by, it's a money laundering racket.
It's the point of it, the stealing is the point.
I mean, it seems like Ukraine has been the money purse for pretty much the entire West.
Yep.
So if Russia's a thugocracy, so we have the former head of the KGB, he's the head oligarch, and then beneath him are essentially gangsters, right?
Like in our past, Lucky Lucianos, Bugsy Siegels, John Gaudis, Okay, those are the guys.
That's the bureaucracy now.
That's the new Politburo, are the oligarchs.
Okay, they're a thugocracy.
Ukraine is a kleptocracy.
It's for money laundering, product laundering, influence peddling.
It's a front for larcenous activities.
And so, I guess if you really desire a rooting interest between a thugocracy and a kleptocracy, okay, I don't.
You know, I kind of feel terrible for the innocent Ukrainian people.
Who don't get access to the money trail, the money laundering scheme within their country, and were invaded and displaced from their homes.
So, I think as Christians, we absolutely show them as much mercy and charity as we possibly can.
But I don't see the desire to choose a side here when both sides are back.
You know, sometimes we just stand up and say, Here I stand, I can do no more.
May God have mercy on my soul.
Sometimes we just say no to two bad choices.
Sometimes we have to remember what it said in the movie War Games when we were kids the only way to win the game is not to play.
And in this case, I think that our only interest, frankly, is that our money laundering interests here in the West, primarily through the World Economic Forum and George Soros.
George Soros is essentially the sugar daddy of Ukraine.
And he's not a good guy, obviously.
I think that this isn't even like using the Spanish Civil War, the Republicans versus the nationalists for each side to prep for World War II.
We don't even have those kinds of stakes at stake here.
This is really just.
Will the thugocracy be able to get access to Ukraine's assets and strategic bearing?
Or will the kleptocracy continue to allow itself to be an influence penaling money laundering scheme for an entirely different set of corruptocrats?
That's really all we're fighting for here.
There is absolutely nothing righteous here.
This is Sadducees versus Pharisees, except it's the Pharisees that actually aren't even studied.
They're just Pharisees in name only versus the Sadducees that are largely.
That are denying the resurrection.
So they're basically proto versions of secularists, right?
Jesus didn't try to reform the Sanhedrin, okay?
Didn't try to pour new wine into old wineskins.
And I think we try to do that a lot.
That was really, yeah, I think that's really helpful the Pharisee, Sadducee kind of thing.
So, with that being said, how do you feel about $40 billion to Ukraine?
Right?
It sounds like neither side is a good pick.
Why do we have mothers not being able to give formula to their kids here in America?
And we're, what do you think about that?
Here's what I think is really happening, and man, I hope I am wrong.
Okay.
Okay.
There was a phrase used when they voted for that $40 billion swindle about 10 days ago, and the phrase that was used was lend lease.
And I don't know if members of your audience know what that is a reference to.
Okay.
But the lend lease was the name of the legislation that the Congress passed in the spring of 1941.
When the US politically Americans still did not want to get involved in World War II, another European war, we're still digging out of the Great Depression and revitalizing our own society.
But it was recognized by the politicians that sooner or later we were going to get roped into this.
And we were concerned that the British would lose, and they were the last line, the last wall between the Nazis and us.
We were concerned that they would lose before we had political.
Clearance from the voters to get in.
And so Lend Lease was established as a method by which to get guns, money, resources, munitions, technology to the British to try to sustain their war effort long enough for when the time came that the U.S. would find its way in the war, which of course came later that year on December the 7th.
I think that's what their plan is here, actually.
And I don't think there's any moral equivalency between those circumstances and what's happening here.
Okay.
If anything, it's Hitler versus Hitler.
Like, I don't know.
I mean, Klaus Schwab versus Vladimir Putin.
I mean, do you like a Bond villain kind of Hitler or do you like, you know, a more studious version who looks cool on a horse?
You know, I mean, which version of megalomaniac do you prefer?
But I think that's what the elites in our system are planning.
The war is not going well for Ukraine.
And our own media is actually now beginning to admit this, which just goes to show you it's actually going even worse that they're actually admitting that it's not going well.
The war is not going well for Ukraine.
Russia has, aside from taking Kiev and conquering the country, has accomplished most of its original strategic initiatives that it claimed was the rationale, the Donbas and the other areas in the Crimea.
It already controls those.
And so I think we are just trying to prop up the Ukrainian regime long enough so that later this year, like Labor Day or maybe shortly after, when it's pretty obvious that this election is lost, you'll see Biden go ahead and put American troops in there to try and push the Russians back.
And he'll know it's incredibly, well, first of all, he won't know because he has dementia.
But the people who are actually running the country know it'll be incredibly unpopular.
But at that point, the election is lost.
So what's the point?
And they'll be looking ahead to the next one.
With a plan of forcing Republicans, who will be the new majority in Congress, to it'll be a chance to split their base.
You have to make a choice.
You have to alienate your rally around the flag traditional GOP base by not funding the troops and the war, or you'll have to alienate this new emerging and bigger base of America firsters by funding the war, especially with Trump getting ready for a likely comeback in 2024.
And I think that's, I hope I'm wrong.
I really want to be wrong because the only other option here is.
They just thought it was easier to give Ukraine $40 billion than just to flush it down the toilet.
Okay.
That's the only other option.
And I hope, you know, and that's not a comforting option.
It's certainly a better one than what I am proposing.
But I think that is their plan.
And I think they will do it unless there is the kind, even more pushback than what we saw in the summer of 2014 when they tried to get us embroiled in the Syrian civil war, you know, with John McCain's.
Islamic freedom fighters that don't actually exist because Islam doesn't even believe in freedom.
So I think that's the end game here.
I hope I'm wrong.
I hope I'm wrong.
Pharisees, Sadducees, and Parties00:15:09
Yeah, no, that's helpful.
Going back to what you said earlier about the Pharisees and the Sadducees, I think of, you know, sadly, I think, you know, there's a lot of people within my tribe.
So I'm within, you know, the Reformed tradition, Reformed soteriology.
So I'm Reformed Baptist, 1689 confessional.
And I, you know, I've been disappointed over the last two years as we've had, you know, Civil tyranny, and we've had all these different things plaguing the American people and really across the globe.
I hoped that my tribe, due to the Protestant resistance theory, guys like John Knox and the Scottish Reformers, resistance to tyranny is obedience to God, these kinds of glorious sayings.
I thought that we would have the theological framework to really lead the charge in terms of civil disobedience and obedience to Christ.
And, you know, to my surprise, it's a bunch of Calvary Chapel guys.
And I'm grateful for Calvary Chapel.
I don't mean that in a negative way, but it's not my tribe.
You know, they're more Arminian, they're less reformed.
And it's, you know, Jack Hibbs and it's all these, you know, it's my point is it's like there's this big game of musical chairs right now and everything because every institution has discredited itself, whether it be the media, whether it be pharmacies, whether it be, you know, government, academia, all these.
And sadly, the evangelical church is not exempt from this.
This providential move of God, where every major institution, it's like, you know, you're seeing the guy pulling the levers behind the curtain.
And so people are moving.
So I've got all of a sudden, you know, we were in California.
I left with it, brought about 20 people with me at the end of 2020 to plant a new church here in Texas where I was born and raised.
And by God's grace, we've gone from 20 people to 120 in just a year and a half.
But a lot of the people in our church are not.
I'm used to pastoring Calvinist, to just say it frankly.
And I've got a lot of people who are, they're like, I don't know about that Calvinism thing.
I don't know if I like that.
But what I like about your church is that you'll go and you'll preach out front of the courthouse when there's some kind of.
You know, event happening, and you guys don't wear a mask, and you guys don't shut down, and you guys, you know what I mean?
And, and so it's like there's these new fault lines, like Bodhi Bacham wrote his book, Fault Lines.
And so it's like all of a sudden, it's, um, there's a shift in these things.
Yeah.
And so I say all that back to the Pharisees and the Sadducees to say, Tim Keller.
All right.
So that was a long lead up to say, so Tim Keller is reformed in his soteriology, and he's somebody that I really enjoyed once upon a time.
Um, but his third way ism, I don't know how familiar you are with Tim Keller, but it's kind of, it's always like, well, there's this and there's that, and there's Jesus, you know, there's this and there's that, and there's, Jesus.
And it's always this third way.
And he always did that with politics.
You know, it's, well, there's conservatives and there's liberals, you know, Republicans and Democrats, and then there's Jesus.
The impression, though, that I think a lot of people got, including myself, because I bought into this for a time, is Pharisees and Sadducees, you know, so I'm taking your analogy, but I'm applying it now to the two parties in our system.
The impression that we got was, okay, Republicanism is not that the Republican Party and its policies are not synonymous with the Bible.
No Christian would say that they are.
But the impression that people come away with is that Democrats and Republican policies are equally distant from the Bible.
And so I think there's a lot of young voters and a lot of young Christians that are all of a sudden, it's like the veil has been lifted and that lie, that third way ism kind of thing has been really debunked in their minds and they're coming out with a vengeance.
And I would be one of them and saying, okay, there is a culture war and we do need to fight.
And the Bible calls us to fight, to fight in a godly manner, but to fight these kinds of things.
And so, all that, what would you say to somebody?
Because you talk about the Republican Party and the problems that they have.
And sure, there are rhinos and all these different things.
But what would you say to someone who says, man, well, Steve, it sounds like there's a lot of problems in the Republican Party.
So I feel like it's a toss up.
You could go either way.
I think much of what you're describing, I would describe as a false objection.
Okay.
And that most of the time, in my experience, and I've spent as much time.
As almost anybody my age, I certainly have not been at this as long as the original religious right guys or some of the more famous ones that are more in my age group or a little younger boomer who,
in many cases, frankly, I'm not fans of because they just allow themselves to become reduced to mascots for the Republican Party as opposed to someone who represents God's people within that party.
Because I do think there's a difference.
I'll give you an example of what I mean so I don't just leave the audience hanging with that.
They used to say about Dr. Richard Land, who was the original head of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission at the Southern Baptist Convention before, what's his face, whose name I can't remember, basically ruined it.
Thank you.
Yeah.
They used to say about Richard Land back in the 80s, he used to go to Washington and tell them what we at the Southern Baptist Convention demanded Republicans do.
But nowadays, he comes back to Washington and tells the Southern Baptist Convention what we'll be permitted to have.
That's what I'm talking about.
Are you a mascot for a political party?
Can you be a Daniel?
Can you work within the confines of a political party, but the salt doesn't lose its flavor?
And when they ask you to do that or say that or defend that, which God says is clearly wrong, your answer is that's going to be a no for me dog.
Okay.
When you guys are right, I'll go to the mattresses for you.
When you're wrong, that's my tap out.
Okay.
At a pretty simple standard.
When you guys are on the side of righteousness, I'm right there with you.
When you're not, I'm not.
I think a lot of what.
There's two things that work with the pastors and the church leadership, I think, that are Gen X, my generation, and then older millennials that are now beginning to take over the pulpits.
And one is, I think, a sincere concern.
They don't want to be the next horse for the Republican Party, if I can just put it very bluntly.
They don't want to be the next Ralph Reed.
They don't want to be the next Richard Jeffries, Robert Jefferson.
They don't want to be those guys.
And I don't want them to be either, by the way.
I don't.
And I'm not buddies with any of those kinds of guys.
Okay.
When I mobilize evangelicals, it's not to sell out a conference or to build my donor base.
It was to actually win elections, to like move numbers on the ground.
That's why I kept getting, I kept being asked to join Iowa caucus campaigns during presidential elections because me and the people I work with can move numbers on the ground, not just put out press releases, sell out a banquet, and line our pockets.
We're actually trying to win.
Okay.
And so I totally get not wanting to be the next generation of Republican prostitutes.
Because the party's not worth it anyway.
At least Esau got a bowl of stew.
You want to get that from a Republican leader.
And I tell my audience all the time you've probably heard me say this the only political party that hates you more than the Democrats are the Republicans.
Because the Democrats, it's just straight up honest hatred of what you believe.
You can deal with that.
Otherwise, you haven't been a Christian for more than two minutes.
Okay?
Jesus doesn't say, hey, look out for those wolves with their shiny teeth and sharp claws.
We know what to do with them.
Okay.
It's the guy, it's the wolf in sheep's clothing.
That's the issue.
I mean, you're totally fine taking on Nancy Pelosi with a gun at your face.
It's Mitch McConnell shaking you in the back.
That's what you can't defend yourself against.
Because the guys that most people that become Democrats run for office to do things, most people that become Republicans run for office to be somebody.
And so you and I, our people come along and say, Hey, we need you to do blank, blank, blank, blank policies.
Well, I'm just here to work my side of K Street, bro.
I'm not here for you.
You know, and vote for me because if you don't, then the communists will win.
They hate your guts.
So I'm not here to pump them up or elevate them in any way, shape, or form.
Okay.
That all being said, though, that's a very small group of pastors that I think are just will directly preach the gospel and right and wrong from the pulpit, but will just not directly politically or culturally engage out of fear of getting co opted from a political party.
I don't blame them for that at all.
And frankly, if they just do that first thing, Of boldly proclaiming the truths of God's word.
The rest of it, pastors weren't politically involved in the 40s, dude, or the 50s, or the 20s, or the 1890s.
Okay.
They just did their damn job.
And then the saints left the church and were like, I got my marching orders.
Now I do my job.
Okay.
Well, and I, to interject for just a moment, I would say, I think, I personally think, just a little bit of pushback here, that's part of why we're in the boat that we're in.
I personally think that there's a lot of Christians who are under the impression that the Bible, it's, it's, Family in the church, home in the church, home in the church.
And so I have this theology, I have this set of principles that applies to my marriage and my parenting, right?
Another marriage conference, another parenting conference, another marriage.
And it applies to church planting, right?
The church planting movement and overseas missions.
And it's like the boomers, for instance, you know, I, you know, I want to, it's hard for me.
I'm an older millennial.
And so it's hard for me because I want to, I want to keep to the fifth commandment, honor thy father and mother.
And I don't want to be, I don't want to be like the progressives.
That's how hypocritical would it be?
That's, that's everything that they're doing is dismantling the work of our fathers, our, you know, our proverbial fathers and saying everything they did was wrong and everything they did is bad.
That said, so I want to honor boomers as much as I can.
That said, though, I think that, you know, boomers sought to fulfill global missions.
And their kids grew up and denied the faith and went apostate.
They beat communism abroad only to allow it to be imported to all their institutions here.
So, anyways, I'm just saying that I think.
Let me finish my point.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
My point was because they fulfilled their primary mission of preaching the gospel, the issues of morality were not politicized in their era.
It was not considered the idea that the only people who thought.
That it was bad to kill your child before it was born would belong to one particular party.
And then the people in the other party would not only think it's not bad, but shout their abortions.
That would have blown their friggin' minds.
Those were moral absolutes, they were universal.
And that's what kept the two political parties largely in this left of center, right of center, sort of narrow Overton window.
What's happened is that window's been smashed by the stained glass window smashers, the iconoclasts.
And so, what's happened is the church wants to remain in the same somewhat politically neutral position it was in so that it doesn't become co opted.
The problem is, though, that what it thinks is the Democratic Party isn't a party, it's a cult.
Progressivism isn't a political ideology, it is a rival religion.
It's a religion, yeah.
And in no other culture would the church plant itself and then never directly confront the enemy.
The enemy religion to the gospel.
I mean, there are the stories of St. Boniface with the Norsemen cutting down the oatmeal tree right in their faces because he was disgusted with their pagan worship.
Okay?
The church understood we have to do, the only way out is through.
We have to directly confront the demonic false religions or the pagan transcendent false religions.
We have to directly confront them in contrast with the gospel.
A lot of American pastors.
Want to pretend as if they don't have to do that.
And to do that would make them Republicans.
Right.
And so that's their excuse.
That's their false objection to not doing their job.
That's the point I make.
And it's their fig leaf.
And so what happens is they end up importing a lot of that belief system into their churches.
And I've had this conversation with several pastors over the last few years.
If you let's remove America from the equation.
Okay.
If you went to some third world country as a missionary, and when you arrived, there was a pagan religion that had dominated that community, that village for a generation, so that the water supply you're tapping into, all right, the human resource supply you're tapping into, whether they go and perform the rituals of that cult or not,
They're all infected with it.
They're all influenced by it.
It's been the leading depositor of influence, the leading hub of influence in that village years before you arrived.
If you went there and just, hey, I'm going to build my tent, we're going to do some revival, I'm going to preach the open air, open the Bible, preach the word, and I just preach the Bible as a standalone construct, and I never directly confronted the baggage that the people I'm preaching to are bringing into my ministry, would that be an effective methodology of evangelism?
No.
No.
In fact, what is most of the New Testament?
When we get done with the Gospels, the rest of it are frankly letters, epistles.
Written by Paul, John, Peter, James, Jude, addressing the cultural rot gut that was influencing the communities.
They were just called Colosseum, Corinth, Philippi.
They were specifically who were the Judaizers?
Who was the woman coming from the pagan temple?
Who's the guy in the front row with his arm around his mom that Paul's talking about?
These are specific people, specific movements.
They're not generalities, they're not constructs.
They are directly addressing, and Paul looks at one of them and says, You're a son of the devil.
Right.
They are directly confronting that which is leading the people astray.
They didn't want to kill Paul in Ephesus because he believed in the third way.
Right.
That's right.
May 10th for nine hours a day, and then at night preach the gospel.
In Ephesus, they literally even said, We're in danger of losing our livelihoods.
It's actually affecting the religion to the point where it's affecting the economy, our economy.
Yes.
Yeah, it was a threat.
Christ was a threat.
Confronting False Choices in Society00:12:09
And so I honor the instinct of not wanting to be the next generation of pastors completely used, abused, and ridden hard and put away wet by the Republican Party.
I'm all in on that.
Okay.
But is that your real concern?
Or is it a false objection excuse for you not to confront the spirit of the age?
And it's your fault, frankly, that the spirit of the age is largely embodied in a political party because you didn't confront this for a generation when it was a broader cultural issue.
Back in 1998, Bill Clinton was signing the Defense of Marriage Act into law, and almost every damn Democrat voted for it.
Okay?
That was when you had a chance to stay out of politics directly and directly engage what was going on in the culture and restore moral universal absolutism.
You chose not to do that.
You chose to punt.
You chose to go to a Rick Warren seminar on church growth.
Okay?
You chose that.
And so now what's happened is it's weaponized.
It's not the fringes of San Francisco or the bowels of a college campus.
It is weaponized in the full form of a political party, and there's only two of them that matter in America.
And so we've got one of them given over to demonics, basically.
And that happened because the church chose a different path coming in the 90s and early 2000s than directly confronting this stuff, and to the point that it would be politically obscene for any mainstream Democrat outside of a place like San Francisco to embody this.
Now they've become governor of Kansas saying this stuff.
That's right.
And that's because the church abdicated its responsibility.
To confront it when it was largely a quirky, abnormal, fringe moral movement.
Right.
Because now it is mainstream and weaponized, not just even in the universities, but all of the government schools down at now we have drag queen story time hour and at every public library that matters in America.
And so now you have no choice.
You cannot confront the baggage your people come to your congregation with, the lost come to you with.
You cannot confront it without confronting what is said in left wing media.
And what is said by left wing politicians, because they are its acolytes.
They are the shamans that the church confronted in yesteryear.
They are the high priestesses that the church confronted in yesteryear.
The idea that we're going to put naked men in locker rooms to rape our daughters and nieces and wives and sisters, that originated, that's a public policy from a political party.
That is not just, that's not some esoteric work of a, of, of, you know, of a, of a naval, went to the naval ponderer with his own theological, you know, ruminations that no one pays attention to.
They're freaking doing that.
They're doing it.
And they're doing it because you didn't, you didn't dam the river at its source.
So now that, now the water's flowing downstream now and it's got momentum.
And now it's fully weaponized within a modern American political party the way it was.
That's just the Democrats.
In another era, we would have called them Caligula.
In another era, we would have called them Nero or Domitian.
That's what we would have called them in another era.
They're just called Democrats, too.
Right.
Yeah.
Everything you're saying is really good.
It's certainly a religion.
I like one theologian, Gerhardus Voss.
He actually is the guy who trained Cornelius Van Til.
Van Til was big on presuppositional apologetics and his thought.
That's where we got Greg Bonson, which I would agree with a lot of Greg Bonson and his theonomic thought.
Consider myself to be a general equity theonomist and wanting to apply divine law in the realm of the civil government.
And so, all those kinds of things.
But all the way back to Voss, one of the things he said, and you might end up using this on one of your shows, it's so easy with abortion to say, all right, Molech, this is religion.
This is a false God.
It's not science.
Secularism is a religion.
And this is just one of the sacraments.
But when you think of transgenderism, one of the things that Voss said about the Asherah poles, so you think of Molech, Baal, Baal, You know, and then you think of like Asherah, the Asherah poles were in stark contrast by design to a fruitful tree.
A tree has branches, it has limbs, it bears fruit, it produces something.
The Asherah pole, it makes me think of Isengard, you know, the two towers, you know, and tear down the trees, you know, and so it's stripped of all of its fruitfulness, all of its life.
It's no longer verdant, it's turned into a pole.
And so when you think of transgenderism and stripping away fruitfulness and reproductive organs and those kinds of things, so Molek, you know, with abortion and then Asherah with transgenderism and so.
The sacraments, you know, and the high priestesses, and then everything has an orthodoxy, right?
The idea of, you know, cancel culture.
Well, I do want to cancel.
I want to cancel wickedness.
I'm happy to cancel wickedness.
I think that anytime you legislate, neutrality is a myth.
And I think we bought that as evangelicals.
We bought into that neutrality was actually something that was possible.
And oh, you know, government is neutral.
I believe we had cultural hegemony.
That's why.
Explain that.
Because we were comfortable.
We bought into that Faustian bargain because.
We figured it always worked to our favor because we're the majority.
We're the silent majority.
We're the hegemony.
We're the belief system that is the mainstream default in America.
And so you cut deals like that when, you know, there's the King David who, when he unites the tribes of Israel, disrobes, and when his first wife questions him on it, he says, I'll become even more undignified than this to honor the Lord for what he has done through me.
And then there's the King David that, after he's been a king for a while and he thinks he's got it going on, Then he decides in the springtime when kings went off to war, David stays behind.
When you think you're in charge and therefore you can only lose, you're at a point of diminishing returns.
You make those kinds of compromises.
The reason why the early church never made those kinds of compromises, the reason why Christians in China, and there's far better odds today that if you're born in Beijing, China, you will eventually get converted to Christianity than if you're born in Boston, Massachusetts, or any major urban population center in the U.S., actually, when you look at the numbers.
But they're not making those kinds of calculations in the Christian church in China.
Why?
Because they're underground and aren't permitted any above ground real influence whatsoever.
To peddle or to trade off.
They aren't permitted political trade offs.
They're just trying to survive and exist the way most of Christianity did for its first 1500 years, the founding of this country.
It's because of the amount of comfort we have and social station we have that we believe in these myths.
We believe we can make these compromises because the direct confrontation is a price right now.
We don't want to pay because it would cost us too much of our own comfort.
Right.
I completely agree.
And so now it's like people are waking up.
Praise God for that.
In His providence, there's been many blessings from the tyranny and all the bad things that have happened.
The sad thing, though, is I've noticed that there's a trend with a lot of people who are waking up and they want the principles of Christ.
They want the fruit, but they don't like trees.
It's like, I like apples, but I don't like orchards.
And so there's a lot of people who are waking up and they want the principles of Christ, but not the person of Christ.
And so it's like We've created that idea with our political activism.
This is why I wanted to mention the first group who has concerns, because I share them.
This idea that you can Christianize a society.
But from the outside in.
Okay.
That there are certain external factors that we can humanly create that will anesthetize people from their sinful natures.
Okay.
And we look at the thing, like, for example, we look at the 50s as an idyllic time, an idyllic time of innocence.
And for the most part, it largely was, but lying underneath the surface was the birth of Alfred Kinsey.
That was his decade.
That was Hugh Hefner's decade.
Right?
And so, underneath our comfort and the veneer of wholesomeness, morally therapeutic pietism, as it's sometimes referred to as, germinating just underneath the surface of that, because we're very comfortable, was the next layer of evil, which we simply were completely unprepared for.
And within a generation, launched the sexual revolution.
And had essentially unmoored the American family before we even got to Jimmy Carter and the Reagan Revolution and everything else.
And so that is where we have to be careful.
And I have fears about that as a believer.
And that's one of the reasons why I am so adamant.
There's two reasons why I'm adamant about using leading with a biblical worldview on my show.
One is because I think it's the ultimate truth of the universe.
And I don't think there's any hope whatsoever for the human condition without the word of God.
That's number one.
Okay.
The other reason is, though, and it's a very minor reason, that's like 90% of why I do it.
The other 10% of why I do it, though, is a check on myself to make sure I don't just create a more principled version of the religious fallacy that failed in the previous generation.
Right.
Amen.
So I'm going to preach the same morally therapeutic pietism.
I'm just not going to take kickbacks from the Republican Party to do it.
Right.
I'm just not going to endorse every rhino for a seat at the table to do it.
I'm going to be very, I'll be more principally, more personally principled, but I'll present the exact same fallacy.
And so I check on my own spirit and another reminder that ultimately Jesus didn't die for a theology.
I think theology is extremely important.
You can probably tell, given the fact that I used a lot of real inside baseball theological names and terms in this conversation so far.
And for the most part, I've been able to keep up.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And you've used a lot of political terms and names.
And for the most part, I have not been able to keep up.
But I sit here and I nod my head.
I don't know who that is or what that means, but I'm going with it.
Yeah, I recognize Jimmy Carter.
I know Reagan.
But I love theology.
Yeah.
But Jesus didn't die for a theology, Jesus died for people.
And we have to remember ultimately that it is not by a perfect systematic theology or cultural hermeneutic that God's people will be known.
But as you just used the term, by their fruit, you will know them.
And you look at those early disciples, first disciples, you mentioned.
There's kind of this eclectic movement forming right now, right?
Right.
That was a pretty eclectic group, fishermen, tax collector.
Okay.
I mean, that's a pretty eclectic group that was originally collective.
You got a zealot in there, you know.
And I think of what the Lord's doing now.
It's like, yeah, there's a couple guys.
It's like, okay, let's, I want to abolish abortion, but let's not bomb the clinic, you know, like this, you know.
So you got to hold a couple guys back.
And that's kind of, you know, you've got this similar group.
Yeah.
And I think that that is, that it's not about saving America.
It's about saving Americans.
Right.
And this isn't a country with a perfect history.
Right.
I'm still very proud to be an American, thankful that God let me, created me to be one, because it's still the greatest place to ever live in the history of humanity.
But did I say it was the perfect place to live?
Saving Americans Over America00:03:54
No.
Did I say it was uniquely and specifically and perpetually righteous?
No.
So we're here to save Americans.
And when there are more saints than sinners around here, that's what makes for an exceptional country.
And I think we just need to be careful that the reason why we can't overcome the rhinos in the Republican Party isn't because they're just this much smarter at this than we are.
I wish that were true.
I could live with that, actually.
Yeah, well, we'd have less moral responsibility if they actually just beat us outright.
We could stand before Jesus and say, we tried, and they would just.
That's exactly right.
And you just quantified why I could live with it, is what you just said.
Okay.
What's painful to me is the opposite is true.
It's that the number one news outlet for our people, and more Christians know more about what is said on Fox News every day than what's in their Bibles.
Right.
That's the same Fox News.
I played two clips from Fox News on my show today.
One of them comparing Zelensky to Patton, for goodness sakes, and the other citing a Reuters fact check that the election wasn't stolen.
Okay.
Now, that doesn't mean that the election was stolen.
It was.
But that doesn't mean that it's just the Reuters should not be the evidence for anything you cite if you spend five seconds ever reading Reuters.
Much less if you're Fox News.
Yes.
That's a little bit like showing up at the Council of Jerusalem in the first century and saying, Guys, I've got this, you know, I've got this.
Rome just completely debunked this whole thing is missing from me.
That's it.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
They're the news source for the regime, for goodness sakes, or one of them.
Okay.
And that's what our people are watching all day long.
Well, now I get why all these rhino pukes win all these primaries.
If that's our people are low information, too.
Yeah.
Okay.
John Cornyn must be a great senator.
He must be a real rock ribbed conservative because he's a senator from Texas.
He's a complete hack, a complete hack.
But hey, he was on Fox News.
He was on Hannity.
So he's great.
He must be good.
And that's the stuff that has me pulling what hair I have left out.
Right.
Well, and then the other half.
Right.
So half is listening, you're right.
So half listening to Fox News and a low understanding of what's really going on.
And so, yeah, so they're squishy because they're listening to squishy leaders.
And so they're squishy followers.
The other half, though, is following, especially back to the reform camp, kind of my tribe and my experience.
It's like, okay, so I was a part of Acts 29.
I don't know if you're familiar with that, but I was a pastor in Acts 29.
I left when Eric Mason, he was on the board at the time for Acts 29 internationally and very close friend of Matt Chandler, who's the president of Acts 29.
He came out with his book, Woke Church.
And I pulled our church out of Acts 29.
I said, no, no way.
Like, no, I'm not going to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and tell people if they're white to hate themselves.
I'm not doing that.
I'm white.
My kids are white.
Like, I, you know, I'm just not this whole systematic racist, you know, thing.
I'm not doing that.
He wouldn't tell any group to hate themselves.
Yeah.
Except for white people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But we wouldn't.
That's, I think that's where we have to come off the top rope here and take the conversation higher.
It's not that it's wrong to tell a particular group of people, to tell white people to hate themselves.
It is wrong to, first of all, we are created individually and uniquely in the image of God.
Individually, He has counted all of the hairs on our head.
We are individually given gifts.
Individually, we can boldly approach the throne of grace without an intermediator.
Okay?
It's about my, when I stand before God at my judgment seat, there will be no witnesses.
One on One Before God00:09:49
This won't be a trial.
I won't have a committee to appeal to.
It will be one on one, me against my creator.
Are my sins blood bought and forgiven by Christ through his atoning sacrifice or not?
Yes, pass through.
If not, pass down.
Okay?
That's it.
There won't be opening, closing arguments.
We won't subpoena anybody.
We won't have any intermediaries whatsoever.
It's a one on one transaction.
So it's antithetical to biblical Christianity to tell any group to hate themselves on a group identity basis.
Right.
And what happens when you do that, when you start having a Collective moral responsibility, you ultimately end up with the underlining tone, which is no moral responsibility.
And criminals become victims and victims become criminals.
And so that's what it ultimately amounts to is that nobody's actually responsible for their own choices.
Nobody.
So instead of standing before the God of heaven who will lay every thought bare, and then I have to give an account, and my only defense is to point to Jesus and say, No, I am a sinner, but he paid for it.
It's already been paid in full.
Instead of this individual basis, it's, you know, it's, well, you're guilty for everything within your people group.
And you get, you know, you get.
Grouped into these different identities based off of these characteristics, and race just happens to be a popular one.
People have done this in societies for centuries and centuries and centuries.
It's just in America because of our unique history with the African slave trade that race works, that you can hustle race better than, you know, like Marx would have been furious.
He would have been like, no, this is not what I meant.
I meant classes, class, you know, like my brother.
So, me and him are very different.
My brother is a Marxist and he hates the identity politics, all about race, the transgenderism stuff, all this.
He's furious.
That's how he sees the arc of human history.
Exactly.
So he's furious about it, but he recognizes he's like, Yeah, but it wouldn't work in America.
And I'm like, Why would it not work, brother?
And why would Mark's system of classes not work?
And he'll even admit, you know, he'll say, you know, to some extent, he'll say, well, part of the reason it won't work is because the middle class, even though somebody else is making 200 times the amount, the middle class still makes enough to have two cars, a nice house, vacations in the summer, and they're not upset enough or oppressed enough to revolt.
The West came up in America mainly and then exported it to the rest of the West.
But the West came up with two devices that Marx never foresaw because, in a purely naturalistic sense, His view of the world was largely correct.
If you remove Christ and redemption from the equation and just look at it in the natural sense, whether we call it mercantilism, feudalism, colonialism, whatever the ism of the era was, his view is largely correct.
It just lacks the dynamism that is produced by the transformation of a one on one relationship with Jesus Christ.
But we came up with two social devices he did not foresee a middle class and collective bargaining.
He didn't foresee those two things.
Oh, you mean that the workers can now combine together to collectively leverage their skills and relationships as a hedge against robber baronism?
Didn't foresee those two things, which is why we never flirted with those things here.
Which, to your brother, it's a little bit like if someone came forth and said, I found Jesus' remains.
The tomb wasn't empty.
I found the remains.
We carbon dated it.
The DNA all checks out.
The dude actually died.
Now, for some of us, we might view that as a real demonic scheme.
It wouldn't really test our faith at the core, but for a lot of people, frankly, it kind of would, wouldn't it?
Sure.
Okay.
Probably not for the elect, but it would for pretty much everybody else, particularly those in the nominal camp.
But likewise, isn't that what your brother's admitting?
Your brother wants to belong.
And see, this is how I love how we can make arguments.
Your brother is admitting to you that he wants to devote his life to a philosophy.
That has shown in certain circumstances it can't possibly work.
Who would do that?
Who would say, I want to devote my life to a philosophy that the most successful nation on earth, I admit, the most successful nation on earth has demonstrated actually does not work?
It's never been truly tried, though, Steve.
Yeah, but go ahead.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I just, back to the original point, I think it is important for us.
I don't think it's a choice between standing for what's right in the culture.
And leading with Jesus.
We stand for what's right in the culture because we lead with Jesus.
Because to not directly address evil.
If you found out tomorrow that my next door neighbors over here were a child sacrificing cult, and I've lived next door to them for 15 years, and I do this show with hundreds of thousands of downloads every day, and I'm open about my faith, and I speak at churches all over the country.
But I never bothered to question, dude, what's with all the strange kids coming in and out of the house throughout all hours of the night?
And, you know, what's with the chanting?
You know what I'm saying?
And the screams.
Ah, not my thing.
The third way here is for me to, I'm just going to go on my show and I'm just going to stick to presenting the gospel.
But I'm going to absolutely pay no attention to the evil around me whatsoever.
Would you look at me as a good steward of my faith if that story were to come out?
No.
No.
That's essentially what is being argued for by a lot of American pastors.
So I don't believe in the false choice between call it third wayism, you can call it whatever you want.
I just call it fig leaf gutlessness.
There's a false choice between that and then just becoming a whore for the GOP.
There's a wide chasm there between those two, between turning a people around us and then just becoming essentially a street hooker for a political party that hates me.
I got to think, everyone watching right now and everyone in the comments and everything else, we got to believe that somewhere in the wide chasm between these two choices, there is some place where we can actually, let me throw this out there, do both.
That we can simply say, I'm here to support this cause because my Lord compels me.
The Holy Spirit within me convicts me that this is right.
And I've seen the changes in my own life when I've been sanctified by giving myself over to that conviction.
And I want to share that goodness and taste and see that the Lord is good.
I want to share that goodness with others.
But when you ask me to, you know, give $40 billion to Ukraine, And we'll give you, no, no, I'm not here to conduct deals.
You know, when you guys are right, I got your back.
When you're not, I didn't move.
You did.
Okay.
And so there must be the problem is, we don't, nonconformity isn't great for business.
Belonging to a team or a tribe is.
And to your credit, you pointed out, hey, I've had to align myself theologically with people that I kind of thought I was going to have to.
Theologically correct or even opposed in some cases, but it's like with the apostles say, Hey, Lord, this person over here is doing these incredible things in your name, but he's not one of us.
Should we go over there and say, No?
Right.
If he's not against us, you know.
Not against us, yes.
And the fact that you're seeing such an eclectic group of critical thinkers emerge across our tribal lines, I think if you look at the history of how God's economy operates, that is at least a hint that it could very well be a movement of God.
Mm hmm.
Cool.
Well, let's go ahead and land the plane here.
Let me ask you one more question and frame it up for a moment.
So, you mentioned the Overton window and how it used to be so much more narrow, you know, in the 70s and the 80s, you know, in the 90s.
And now it's like, I mean, when 49 out of 50 Democrats don't just vote to codify Roe, they were way past anything that Roe ever said.
And even that, I always want to say to the conservatives, do you see what they're doing right now?
How they're scrambling to try to codify Roe?
Meaning what?
It was never law, it was a Supreme Court opinion.
Yeah.
They're admitting their own.
Yeah.
So now, all even a lot of the pro life industry is the veils being lifted.
It's like, oh, yeah, you guys could have been doing more this whole time, but you were splitting the penny a million different times with, you know, like, so.
I then have a bill coming in spice that you reject mercy and spirit of the law.
You should have kept the letter of the law, Christ says.
Right.
Nothing wrong with the letter of the law.
But you don't do it in spite of the spirit of the law.
That's right.
So with the Overton window, it's like when you got 49 Democrats, and they're not just trying to codify Roe, but they were trying to, you know, abortion for any reason in any state, all the way up until the baby takes care of the baby.
His first breath.
That's 49 out of 50.
And you have that as a party, as an ethos.
And then you've got companies like Disney, and Netflix is starting to see a whole snap.
We don't want to be Disney.
Go woke, go broke.
But you've got this over here.
And then you don't just have the right, but it's starting to splinter.
And so you've got some of these new conservatives.
And you've got some of them.
I'm not saying they're far right in the sense of they're conspiracy theorists.
I'm sure you've got plenty of those too.
But my point is you've got guys like me.
I'll just throw myself in as an example that I. You know, I'm like, man, I want us to, I don't want to just conserve.
National Divorce and Internal Division00:03:57
I want to reform the nation.
I want reformation.
I want us to go back to God's law, back to, you know, very, very, very conservative.
So, my point is just to say the Overton window is just massive right now.
And so, the question is, you know, how does a nation, I mean, you know, I feel like we've been in a cold civil war.
I think I've heard you and other guys talk about that for a little while now.
It hasn't gotten hot yet, but still it's cold.
And I think of, I don't know if you ever read, it was a couple of essays put together, Grubbs, I think was his last name, but The Fate of Empires.
And he does this survey of world history and talks about how.
Every major empire lived, you know, it lasted for about 250 years, like right on the dot.
And, you know, and we're right there.
However, back to what you said in the very beginning, it is unique that America, because I would agree with you, I think the American experiment is the closest.
I'm not saying it's synonymous.
I'm not saying that it's not, that it's perfect, but the closest to a nation built on biblical values, the biblical worldview that I think the world has seen.
So I think, you know, we could have maybe more than 250 years.
But my point is, it seems like when a nation gets that strong, if it's Rome or Persia or Assyria or Babylon or whatever it is, A nation reaches the point of strength to where the only thing that ultimately takes it down is enemies within.
It's an implosion of division.
There's a decadence that begins.
There's a, like David, he's older, right?
Kings go to war, but I think I'll sit this season out, you know?
And it's self sabotage and it's division within the ranks.
And then somebody, when they're weak, then somebody comes in and takes over.
And so my question is, Are we going to have a civil war?
Are we going to have a peaceful just divide?
I mean, something's going to have to happen.
This isn't sustainable.
Well, I think the setup to your question is spot on, every syllable.
I've got good friends in our industry slash movement that are advocates of what they call national divorce.
And I don't believe that's possible because we're not dealing with an aberrant political philosophy, but a religion.
These are Jehovah's Witnesses with tanks.
Right.
How many times you show them the proof that their founder, Charles Taze Russell, admitted once in court under oath that he could not translate Hebrew or Greek, but he could claim to still offer his own Bible translation?
It doesn't matter how many times you deconstruct the Watchtower Society or ask them questions like So, if only 144,000 people are going to be saved, but there's already four and a half million of you, why are you still trying to add to your ranks?
It would seem like you have to settle some things internally here first, right?
Those arguments don't work because it's religious, not science, not logic.
It's beyond logic.
That's exactly right.
And so I think that if we were capable of national divorce, we wouldn't be here.
They're not going to let us go.
You're right.
California and New York are going to let all those Sun Belt states with low debt and high earnings and positive economic forecasts that are undergirding all of their profligate spending.
They're going to let you guys all go and be stuck with their own.
No, they're not.
Now, I do think we can do some form of involuntary self sorting where we can make red communities even redder.
That's what we did.
Red states even redder to the point that the idea that they would even want to move to your state to infiltrate it wouldn't even be contemplated.
Okay.
I do think we can do that.
Like, they don't move to West Virginia to infiltrate it, they move to like Texas.
Okay.
Right.
Think that that could happen.
All right.
But I don't think there'll be any form of formal, peaceful national divorce, even though it's clear these worldviews cannot reconcile.
Revival or Bust00:02:10
On my show, we have said for years that the end game here is revival or bust.
That we will see either another great awakening, like what you saw in the 18th century that gave birth to American liberty and independence in the first place.
I prefer the first great awakening, just for the record, to the second.
That's why I like that word a little bit more.
Yeah, go ahead.
But you'll either see revival or bust.
And bust could look a lot of different ways.
It could look like cultural implosion, it could look like foreign invasion.
It could look like we just do the slow boat, the slow death by a thousand cuts like Western Europe, and we just wake up one day and the old Catholic cathedrals are now mosques, and 2% of the population identifies as evangelical, which is what I just described as France.
Okay.
And so, but it's bust nevertheless.
It could be a cataclysmic bust.
You know, the Visigoths come over the wall one day, or it could just be the slow bleed out like what we've seen in Western Europe.
Okay.
But it's bust nevertheless.
And those, I think, are the only two options of where we stand right now.
Nope.
I completely agree.
Well, any final thoughts for our listeners before I let you go?
I appreciate the conversation.
This has been very fun.
You know, your stuff.
And I'm glad I set aside the time to do that.
And I hope people really enjoyed it.
So thank you.
Thank you, Steve.
Thanks for coming on the show.
And all of our listeners, we appreciate you guys, your support, your encouragement, and your prayers.
And if you want to follow Steve Dace, Steve, how can they do that?
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All right, great.
Thanks so much for tuning in and thanks for coming on the show, Steve.
You bet.
God bless.
Thanks so much for listening.
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