Mark Hamilton critiques LeBron James for inciting violence over Micaiah Bryant's shooting, labeling the celebrity's tweets hypocritical and dangerous. Hamilton argues that modern "ethnic emotionalism" ignores biblical justice, urging Christians to prioritize spiritual identity over race while resisting social media's pressure for immediate commentary. Drawing on James 1:19-21, he advocates listening before speaking to avoid fleshly anger, asserting that Scripture alone can withstand cultural decay without compromising divine glory. [Automatically generated summary]
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Applying God's Word to Life00:13:26
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries.
We have another episode of Theology Applied, our podcast slash show.
Today I'm privileged to have as a special guest Mark Hamilton.
Mark Hamilton and I have gotten to know each other recently through social media and then having a call on the phone.
And he wears many hats.
He is a pastor of a church called Faithful Stones, and he'll share some of that.
With us, but that's not really his day job.
He's a bivocational pastor.
His primary vocation in terms of income for his family is he is a detective in Buffalo, New York.
He also does a lot with fitness.
If you ever check out his Instagram, you'll see a lot of fitness tips.
And he does a lot of that, not just for vanity or image or those kinds of things, but to train public servants and how to be more equipped and more effective in their jobs.
He's also a husband.
He's also, by God's grace, a father of five.
So without further ado, Mark Hamilton, anything I miss, feel free to introduce yourself.
Welcome to the show.
Well, thank you for having me, Joel.
It's a pleasure and a joy to be here.
I'm overwhelmed by God's grace, how he has brought us together.
Yes, as you said, I am a husband of a lovely wife, a nice lady, as I joke with her.
She's a nice lady and she laughs because she truly is.
She's a worthy woman, as Ruth says, and she loves.
Her family, she loves God and she loves the people of God.
Our girls, we're raising to love God most so that if they love God most, they will love us just fine and everyone else too.
So we are happy to have our family growing by God's grace.
Tell me a little bit about what it is like being a detective?
What's it like being a police officer in Buffalo?
What's the temperature there, New York?
Well, I believe it would be similar to what's going on around the country.
The temperature is high.
Emotions about what's going on is at a fever pitch, really, because everybody is reacting emotionally.
And in my case, I get to see what I call the ethnic emotionalism because we have a lot of.
Premature reacting to situations that heightens the situation, makes it worse.
It doesn't make it better.
It doesn't bring any calm or any sense to the matter.
It just brings feelings and personal agendas to the situation.
So, being a detective in the city of Buffalo is, I would be able to sympathize with.
A lot of the officers around the nation that are going through things, some deservingly, some undeservingly.
Most of it is unwarranted, I would say.
Most of it is unwarranted because the heightened pitch where the media has really infused this animosity against the police and the citizens is just unfair and unwarranted.
Right.
I was going to say, it's not just that you're under, as the police department all across our nation, it's not just that police are under intense scrutiny or meticulous scrutiny, but it's, like you said, it's unfair scrutiny because basically you have what nobody likes.
I don't like it.
Nobody likes it.
Even pastors don't enjoy when somebody who doesn't have your job thinks they know more about your job than you do and tells you how to do it.
So you have the whole nation.
And part of that's just the phenomenon of social media and everybody carrying around a video camera in their pocket.
Essentially, you know, and being able to, but the problem is, you know, I keep thinking about, I think it's Proverbs 18 17 that, you know, the first one to bring his case seems right until another cross examines him.
And you might say, and I think with the George Floyd instance, a lot of people are like, hey, that's not just somebody bringing their case.
They didn't just present a case, they presented evidence and they presented conclusive evidence because it's video, Joel, it's video, Mark.
You know, what more could you want?
But the reality is that there are many different Variables at play.
And even with video, there's video from multiple angles.
There's the person who's got an iPhone standing off to the side.
There's the body cam footage.
And so I can't imagine in your line of work being under, you know, not just intense scrutiny, but unfair scrutiny from the peanut gallery, you know, like just your average Joe who doesn't know anything about the police department, but then also the higher paid peanut gallery, aka the mainstream media, you know, who's.
Really, they're kind of the peanut gallery these days, also, but who, you know, are saying, well, why don't you just, I saw Wyatt Earp shoot somebody's gun out of their hand.
Why don't police officers aim for the weapon in their hand, you know, and things like that?
So, do you have any comments on that?
I just can only imagine what the frustration you might feel.
Well, yes, I do, because it's almost that, you know, people want you to take sides.
You're black, Mark, and you're a cop and you're a pastor.
What do you say?
Well, I quickly and hurry to say what's right.
What's right?
The scriptures you brought in, Proverbs 18, one man thinks he's right until he's cross examined.
And then it's a different matter.
And I think the church, the community has done a poor job, especially my community, because again, no matter how much you beat the drum, no matter how much you try to stand, and a lot of times you stand alone pointing out the truth.
What happened to George Floyd?
What I said, one thing I said, because my social media, as you said, is business and is to serve people in a physical way.
But I did speak out because I seen so many people reacting prematurely, you know, just saying this and saying that.
And one thing that I wanted to make clear is that George Floyd might not look like you.
He did not, he might have not lived where you lived, but he deserved the right, the respect, the care, the love that an image bearer of God deserves.
And as well as Derek Chauvin.
And when you put that in there, it's like, wait a minute, stop the press.
What do you mean?
No, no.
The Bible is clear there is no partiality with God, God shows no respecter of people or persons.
And so, real justice without the adjectives is God's justice.
Justice is of God, is of truth.
And we wait till a matter is heard fully, no matter what color you are, no matter what economic status you are.
And so you have to look at the matter, and it's so tough being a black man on the police department.
It's like double whammy when people look at you and they question you and they automatically think, yes, we're together.
But no, we're not together in that sense.
I'm sorry.
Yes, I love you.
But the truth matters.
The truth matters.
Facts matter, and I can't detach myself from it.
Right.
And when you say, like, I'm not with you, and I think I could speak for you in this matter, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying, you know, if there's another person in the black community who's looking on and you're investigating some kind of crime or something like that, and they're like, hey, you're with me, you know, you're like, no, I'm not with you.
But also, I think you would say, Mark, and I'm not with them.
I'm not with the black community.
I'm not with the police.
I'm with Christ.
I'm with the truth, wherever that lands, whatever side.
And so that's, I mean, our world is so, there's so much tribalism today.
We're so polarized, we're so divided.
And everybody's passing out t shirts or everybody's passing out jerseys.
Join our team.
Get on the right side of history, get on the right team.
And it's really hard as Christians to continually say, no team but Christ.
That's the team that we're on.
And all of these secondary ways of finding identity, it's not that they don't matter.
The Bible speaks to secondary identity.
I was talking about this recently with a friend, but our primary identity, there's only two identities a person can have.
You're either in Christ or you're in Adam, right?
You're in Christ, and all the blessings of God are you by virtue of your union with Christ by grace through faith in Adam.
In Christ, or you're in Adam, you're a dead man walking, you're on death row under the just condemnation of God, and if He does not intervene in His salvation, then you're hopeless, you're without hope in the world.
First Corinthians 15 talks about that.
So, in Christ or in Adam, at a secondary identity level, there's, well, I would say the next biggest thing is male and female.
Genesis 1 27, male and female, He made them in His image, He made them.
And then, you know, further down, we might say tertiary, it's not that it doesn't matter, it does matter.
But beneath gender, male and female, there's only two genders, then we would have ethnicity.
We'd have black, white, brown, Asian, you know, and down the gambit.
And that does matter because we do have, you know, revelations and texts that say from every tribe, tongue, and nation, right?
That God is, you know, heaven is going to be ethnically diverse.
And so that's something that God created, something that should be celebrated.
But what I've noticed in our culture today is, you know, what ultimately the pagan culture, the unbeliever wants to do is always pervert the truth, twist the truth, turn things ultimately on their head.
Right.
So, like, God says, if you eat of the fruit, you shall surely die.
And Satan says, you will not die, but rather, and he doesn't just say, God's lying, you won't die, but he turns it on his head.
He says, not only will you not die, you will be like God.
And so, there's always this reversal of upside down flipping things.
And so, in our pagan culture, unbelieving culture, we have, I think, from a biblical worldview, we have like top tier identity in Christ, in Adam.
Right.
Then, second, I think we'd have things like male, female, and subcategories from male and female.
We'd have, um, A man who is a husband, a man who is a father.
And these are secondary identities that matter because the Bible has specific things to say based on which category you fall into.
If you're a woman, the Bible has something to say.
If you're a man, the Bible has something, a lot of similar things, but some distinct things also to say to a man versus a woman.
And then if you're a husband or if you're single, the Bible has different things to say.
But then again, down the line, ethnicity and what our culture, I think, has done is our culture says male and female, that's a distinction, an identity category that doesn't matter at all.
Or they'll even go further male and female, that's a category that doesn't even exist.
Genders don't even exist, this binary gender.
But then they'll take something that, That is a biblical category of ethnicity, but in my assessment, in biblical terms of priority, the identity that an individual person gets from being black or white, I think, is inferior to the identity in terms of biblical terms and what the Bible has to say of man or woman.
I think the Bible has a lot more to say about if you're a man or a woman, and then certainly the most to say about whether you're in Christ or Adam.
So, in Adam or in Christ, man, woman, And then we could say black, white.
And what our culture has done is said, man and woman doesn't matter at all, or it doesn't even exist.
Black and white means everything.
And so a man, like Caitlyn Jenner, Bruce Jenner, a man can dress up like a woman.
But we've seen a couple of times where some white person gets caught trying to pull off acting as though they were black.
And our culture doesn't really like that.
And so it's just, and I would say both are wrong, but the problem is we've elevated these kind of tertiary identity categories.
The Church and Secondary Identity00:15:01
As though they're the end all be all.
And so there's this extra incentive, not just incentive, but demand for you to take a side, take a side, put on the jersey.
Whose team are you on?
And so I just, I can't really, I can't imagine the pressure that you feel.
Are there a lot of other, if I can add, are there a lot of other black detectives or police officers where you work in Buffalo?
Or do you feel like there are other black detectives and officers, but we would be considered the minority.
Times two.
Yeah.
Because that's just the makeup.
And that's a whole nother issue.
But there are.
There are.
And again, the way I think as a Christian man, and that's my title.
You know, all the other titles are secondary, as you just said, because the world, the culture tries to label you even if you don't want the label.
And they push that in the media.
They push that in the university.
They push that in the open square.
And that's all you hear.
But when one proclaims and identifies with Christ as the ultimate, you get so much pushback.
And that's people in the church, sadly, now, which we're dealing with.
But of course, the world.
But the church, that's the sad thing because you're dealing with these issues that.
The church is supposed to have the answer.
The church is supposed to shed light and bring clarity to the truth.
And you're fighting, you're infighting with friendly fires coming in from all sides about an issue that we're supposed to be in agreement on.
You know, Paul said, I regard no one according to the flesh.
And he goes on to talk about we are new creatures in Christ.
That should matter most.
Yep.
Amen.
So, with that, the church and that friendly fire, where the church, I can't remember who said it, but he said the church is one of the only armies he's ever seen, the only group of soldiers he's ever seen that shoots its own, sadly.
And yet, at the same time, the church is the bride of Christ.
And Spurgeon says that even despite all the faults and all the infighting and all those kinds of things, Charles Spurgeon said that the church is the sweetest place I know.
And so the church is the sweetest place on earth, even with all its faults.
I think Calvin is the one who said that wherever the word of God is rightly preached and the sacraments rightly administered, there a church of God exists, even if it swarms with many faults.
And so we love the church, but she's rough sometime.
And me and you are part of the problem.
We're sheep too.
We're under shepherds, but we kind of have that dual identity.
We're Christ's sheep who also are shepherds.
And so we make plenty of mistakes.
But speaking to your church specifically at a local level, How is your church handling that with you being a police officer, you being their pastor, you really holding to a, not social justice, but biblical justice and a biblical worldview and seeking to apply those things?
Is your church with you, I guess?
I'm sure plenty of them are.
Or do you have, even at a pastoral level, do you have some of those moments with some of those individuals who are kind of buying into the spirit of this age?
Well, isn't that the temptation?
That's the temptation for us all.
Romans 12 said, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
And that's the emphasis at our church that we would be transformed and reject, resist conformity to the culture, to stand up and to speak.
He has given us his spirit to speak clearly and boldly, not our truth, as the world says, not a tribal truth, not an ethnic truth.
But a biblical, Christ centered truth where he is proclaimed and made much of.
And, you know, they know my position, and I try to communicate that position from scripture, but without any other vantage point, not as a police officer.
I don't separate myself from being a police officer or anything else.
I come as A servant of Christ saying, This is what God says, thus says the Lord about every issue.
That includes government, that includes the culture, that includes family, that includes all of our life.
And I think, Joel, one of the major problems in the church is they have detached Christ from life.
And the separation is obvious and it is damaging.
Where Christ is on the Lord's day for an hour or two, and then on Bible study and whatever service you come to, but then you scatter and there is no reflection of his authority in our life.
And so when things like this come, when things like this threaten the church, we are up in arms.
And we're questioning or we're giving an ear to these ideologies that are.
That are godless and pagan and just plain evil because we have not recognized the falsehood.
Yep, I completely agree.
And I think part of it is exactly what you're saying.
It's all of Christ for all of life.
It's theology applied.
That's the point of this show.
And it's when our theology is actually lived out.
And I think part of the problem is there's a lot of evangelicals today who would quickly salute the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
They would absolutely affirm that the Bible is infallible, that it's without error, it's inerrant, that it's eternal, that it's immutable, that it's.
That it's also fully authoritative, that it's the highest authority in all the universe, that it's absolute, that it's universal, all these kinds of things, objective.
The problem is that something like social justice comes on the scene or whatever.
It doesn't even have to be that issue, but whatever it is, you leave the Lord's day, like you're saying, you leave Sunday, you leave the church, and you go about your life, whether it's in the home or whether it's on the street or in your vocation or In media or whatever it might be, with parenting, with education, and what you know, how are we going to school our children?
All these kinds of things.
Um, it's precisely at those points that, um, we don't question the authority of scripture, we we question its relevancy, we question the sufficiency of scripture, not the authority of scripture.
But, um, and and what we think, what many Christians think, is that, um, it's not that they're saying, Well, I know God has said this, but I just want to do that.
Um, that that happens sometimes, we are that rebellious.
But often, what I find pastorally is that a lot of times people say, I know God says this.
What does this have anything to do with that?
They don't see affirming, saluting God's word here, and then the way they're living in a particular action over there as a blatant contradiction.
They don't see how the scripture applies.
I think that's a big part of the problem.
So, especially with politics, I think a lot of Christians would say, The Bible has nothing to say about politics.
And really, pastors need to not really be talking about politics or preaching about politics that has no place in the church.
And there's this clear line, separation of church and state, which a lot of people misinterpret what that's actually supposed to mean.
And if the Bible says anything about politics at all, what do we hear most often?
Romans 13, Romans 13, submit to the civil magistrate.
And that gets exegeted to mean an unconditional submission to the civil magistrate, even when they might be legislating something that's.
that's contrary to God's word.
And so there's just so many misnomers and so many misunderstandings about the word at the level of application.
I think that's a big part of the problem.
So that we see certain things and we just, Christians will be so quick to buy into narratives that are antithetical to the truth of God's word.
And it's not necessarily because of this blatant heart that desires to rebel.
Because we're speaking of Christians with new hearts that in their inner being they delight in the law of God.
It's because in their mind they have not yet conformed, been transformed rather, to the truth of God's word to the degree that they see the connection between God's word says this and that means on the ground it means blank.
I think it's that ground level Christianity, practical, lived out Christianity that I think a lot of the church is missing.
That's good.
So, that being said, tell me, tell me, tell our listeners a little bit about the story that you shared with me, just about your church, because it's a unique story of the church that you currently pastor, where it came from, how it got there.
Share that with us.
So, I grew up in the church.
I would be a third generation preacher.
Grew up in my, well, at a very young age, started off in my grandfather's church.
My father, shortly after, started his church in 1983.
Well, actually, I would say 1982, because he started in a house church preaching to drug addicts and drunks.
And he grew out of there and started, bought a, purchased a building.
1983, we went into a building.
The church was named Word of Faith.
And a lot of the, and all the baggage, all the heretical, damaging, dangerous doctrine of that movement came along with it.
It wasn't as, I would say, blatant as some of the, Preachers, you hear, but it was still just as deadly.
And so, but with that said, he started the church in 1983.
We bought a building, we purchased a building.
Church is flourishing, it's growing, but all the while, it's wrong.
It's unbiblical.
I mean, it's a seeker friendly, so to speak, kind of church.
Everything goes.
There was not much.
Emphasis on the scriptures and the authority of them, and that as our king and head and our direction.
And so, by God's grace, my father continued to pastor.
And let me add, his mercy, because we often bring up how merciful God was to allow us to operate in that state.
But he knows, he knows, and I know by his great providence that.
He knew who he called and he knew who he drew out of darkness.
So for years, the church continued, it flourished and grew so much out of that particular building.
We built another building.
And right not shortly after that, we had success there.
Seven years later, I believe we paid off the mortgage off of a brand new building because people were giving, faithful coming, all of that.
But something still wasn't right, Joel.
Something still wasn't right.
We knew that.
And I think that's when the Lord started to get my attention, just putting things in my path, starting with listening to the Bible Answer Man and Hank Hennegraaff.
And again, one thing led to another.
I got a hold of John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, and The various ones, and I'm like, Where is this?
Where is this teaching?
Where is this teaching?
And I'm feeding my father, and I'm like, Dad, you got to hear this.
You got to listen.
And so, as it would happen, the Lord really convicted us, convicted us.
And I would just dig, dig.
I read all I can read, I searched, I can search.
And I began to, again, question my father.
You know, gently, and then sometimes it would be vigorous, and we're going at it, and just in the scriptures saying, How is this true?
And so that would go on.
And then my father and I would have conversations, frequent conversations.
And then the Lord opened his eyes.
The Lord opened his eyes.
There's no other way I can put it.
And from that moment on, he committed to the biblical authority and doing things the right way.
And he had to announce to the church that we're going in a different direction.
And when he said that, Joel, it was done.
It was done.
You go from a full membership of over 200 people to 50 people.
And they just started slowly.
Everybody didn't leave at once.
Everybody didn't leave, but they just started slowly going for the door.
And it was tough.
It was sad.
We cried.
I know my dad was very, very broken over that.
Humility in Reformation00:11:47
Anytime you're shepherding.
People and you're involved with families, and then you have to expose and because you love them, because you love them.
That had to be done, and it was done.
And I think, again, I said, I think two, seven years later, the mortgage was paid off.
Thank God, because everybody was gone.
So we were left there with the mortgage and just a few people, but God, again, was faithful, was faithful.
And seeing us through as we were reforming.
Because the reform really started in 2002, and then, you know, Sempera Reformata.
You know, we're always reforming, but we weren't reforming in the way that, in the classical sense, we were just trying to right some wrongs and be conformed with Scripture.
And then it's been going on by God's grace for a strong.
Strong as we've been in reform and learning and growing.
And just last year, well, this is 2021, 2019, but my father asked me to take over as lead and senior pastor.
And I didn't know that was happening when it was happening, but God knew, and now we are grateful, grateful, ever grateful that God has withheld his.
His judgment and his mercy is so abundant and it is clear and evident how he has spared us.
Because every time I think about how we operated, what was going on, and at any time he could have just said, No, you're done.
But thank God he is a merciful God, slow to anger, slow to wrath.
I had the same kind of experience.
I know we talked about it previously, but I. You know, I planted a church in San Diego, California about 11 years ago, and just not what I should have been doing.
I wasn't qualified at the time.
I wasn't meeting the biblical qualifications.
I wasn't able to teach.
So, both in competency, you know, if you took it and you said, you know, biblical qualifications, put them in two categories of competency and character.
Competency, able to teach, but then also some of the things that often get categorized as character, I think, have to do with competency, like managing your own household.
That speaks to the character of a man, but it also speaks to a man's competency.
And if he can't manage his own household, he has no business managing the house of God.
And so both in terms of character and competency, I was not qualified at the time, should not have been planting a church.
And by God's grace, you know, after about four years, at about the four-year mark, there was serious reform in the church that ultimately began by God in his mercy doing serious reform in me and in my heart and through repentance and seeing things in the word rightly in terms of doctrine, also in terms of holiness.
And then all of a sudden, it just kind of became, I can think of, you know, the steady, you know, reformed and always reforming, like what you were saying.
But then it's like the way the Lord does things and the way that he slowly reforms, it's funny because it's like this slow, gradual reformation.
But just like stock investments, there are spikes every now and then.
It's like the Lord reveals something, you know, he's revealing things to you every day as you're following him and serving him and submitting to his word.
But there are moments where he reveals something big.
You know, and in those big moments where it calls for serious change, right?
Like it's like the Lord calls you all over again.
And I think this is just the Christian life, you know, and you see it in church life, you see it in individual Christian life.
But it's you're following Jesus, and along the way, you know, there's daily taking up our cross and following Him.
But there are moments where that cross is really heavy.
There are moments where that are extra sacrificial, right?
Like Abraham was following the Lord.
For quite a while before the Lord said, and now I require your son Isaac, sacrifice him.
You know what I mean?
Like that?
Like, I'm sure there were, I mean, God had already asked him to leave everything that he knew and to go to the place that he would show him.
And I'm sure there were multiple, you know, a daily grind of sacrificing current comforts and pleasures and my will ultimately to serve the will of Christ.
But then there are big, kind of monumental moments.
And so I know, I remember for our church and for me, there were those big theological mountains.
Where we, you know, I just couldn't.
It's like something got, you know, I just saw something in the word and I couldn't unsee it.
You know what I mean?
Like you miss something for years.
And then you see it and you can't unsee it.
And then you have to change.
I mean, right then it's like you have a choice.
You're either going to repent or you're going to harden your heart.
I remember a big one for us was, you know, continuationism versus cessationism.
And so I became a cessationist and have been for a few years now.
And That was a big one.
And so it's like at every step of the way, you know, you're reformed and always reforming.
The first, and that 11-year journey for me, the first four years were just like what you're describing, where you can only chalk it up to the slowness of anger, his long-suffering on the Lord's part, his mercy, right?
So for the first four years, it's like, I shouldn't have even been doing this.
Over the last, you know, seven years, it was this gradual reformation, being, I believe, pleasing to the Lord the whole time, but becoming more and more.
Formed, forged into the image of Christ, better doctrine, better character, more love for holiness, all those kinds of things.
But in that seven years, there were those milestones, right?
Like those big ticket items, like, okay, we don't believe in speaking in tongues anymore, you know, and some people walk out the door, you know.
I remember when I preached through 1 Timothy, you know, when I preached through 1 Timothy, and typically you get to hard text and you just kind of want to get past it.
But I remember just being convicted and we got to 1 Timothy chapter 2, verse 9 through 15, where it talks about, I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.
She must remain silent.
And, you know, in verse 15 says, you know, but women will be saved through childbearing if they continue with faith openly, you know, and it's like, that's like, let's just get past that.
And I just, I felt convicted.
And I, so I slowed down.
I spent four weeks just on those few verses.
And, and you could literally each week that I came back, there was a noticeable lack of people at church.
Like, I mean, like 10, 20 people per, well, not 20, but about 10 people per week for four weeks.
We lost about 40 people in that month.
And so anyways, all that being said, I commend you.
I commend your father.
You can tell I said this.
I just, the humility, I think, that's required to do something.
Because it's one thing for a young man to reform.
Because really, reform, we're just talking about changing.
And in this particular case, changing in accordance with God's word.
But there's a reason why, you know, we have the old adage, you know, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, right?
I mean, the older a person is, it's not that God doesn't save the elderly or change or reform the elderly.
But when a person has been going in a certain direction for a long time, I think we.
Could say God ultimately is sovereign.
He'll save whoever, whenever he wants.
But there is a reason that most conversions happen in the childhood years or even like maybe young adult college years.
But, and not to say that your father, this was his conversion, I don't know.
But my point is to make a huge reformation and to say, yeah, the direction I was going was wrong.
I'm going to repent.
It's going to be costly.
And I'm ultimately later on going to hand it over to my son.
All that I think is just.
Incredibly honorable.
I know a little bit of what that's like.
We didn't go from 200 to 50.
But my hat is off to you and your dad for doing whatever it took to be ultimately to love the glory that comes from God more than the glory that comes from men.
So good on you for that.
So anything else you want to share about just being a pastor and what that's like?
Well, it's a tall task, but I do enjoy.
Serving the people of God.
I do enjoy serving the people of God because I watch my dad.
One thing out of the things he's admitted and repented of, he did a lot of things right.
And I've seen how he served the people, I've seen how he studied.
He is a masterful wordsmith in the Word of God, he can quote large portions of Scripture.
And I gained that love.
Of the scriptures from my father.
Because, you know, just quoting from, it's nothing like quoting the scriptures from memory and having it come out of hiding at the right times.
And so I love teaching that to the people and teaching them to love the word of God.
Because loving the word of God means loving Christ.
And so now, with this right understanding and this reforming to this authority that's higher than anything and which should guide us and be our light, this is our goal.
This is my goal to create a love for the glory of Jesus Christ in our people.
And we are on a path of feeding the confessions and catechisms and.
We're going through all of that.
I had a dear sister come to me after the study of the scriptures the other night and said, Pastor, this is what I've been looking for.
This is what we need.
And that just, I mean, it just melted my heart because even though I know what the scripture says, I know what I'm supposed to be doing, that confirmation from the flock, the confirmation from the people that you are feeding, Is just, it's second to none.
And I just praise God for that.
So, a pastoring is an all day, everyday grind, as you made mention of.
But I do love seeing people grow from this point to this point and grasp the understanding of the word.
So with that all-day grind, everything you said, beautiful.
I agree wholeheartedly.
But with that all-day grind, because I completely agree, being a pastor is you're always on the clock.
The All-Day Pastoring Grind00:03:33
Now, that doesn't mean you're always working.
Pastors sleep.
Pastors get to hang out with their wives and their kids and all that kind of stuff.
I don't want to make it sound miserable.
But faithful pastors work hard, and they're always, it's 24-7 in the sense that they're always on call for the sheep.
There's always a sense that if the sheep are in trouble, right, the pastor, he gets out of bed and he goes and he helps the sheep.
That's the difference, John chapter 10.
Between, you know, the shepherd and the hired hand.
Right, the hired hand stays in bed, you know, as a sheep is getting ripped apart by a bear or or a wolf, you know, and uh, but the but the pastor gets out of bed, he goes and and he takes his staff and he puts his life on the line and he tries to defend the sheep, and so it is a full-time endeavor.
So, with that being said, what's it like?
This is kind of my.
My next question with your pastoral ministry, what's it like being bivocational?
What's it like having because it's not just bivocational in the sense that you're, you know, you work a, you know, punch in, punch out, 40 hour a week job, You know, and then go pastor, but you're working another vocation that is also, I can only imagine, fairly demanding.
So, what is that like?
Well, prioritizing and really narrowing down what really matters.
You know, my life at home has been totally rearranged.
You know, my wife is so wonderful with our children.
And scheduling and things like that nature, and keeping the home intact where our time is basically planned and scheduled and things of that nature.
No time for television.
I think television has been just dwindling down to nothing.
The TV is not on through the week, and we'll allow the kids to watch it on the weekend or whatever for a little bit.
There's so much to do, Joel.
There's so much to do.
There's so much to read.
There's so much to prepare for.
You know, you mentioned taking care of the sheep in the middle of the night.
We have one elder right now in the hospital, right now.
If you can keep in your prayers, Elder Cyrus Hines.
He's a dear brother that's been with us, and he suffered a stroke.
And we've been visiting in the hospital, taking care of whatever he wants me to do and the things of that nature.
And again, with the reform and things like that, preparing for a walk at our local.
It's called Compass Care.
This Saturday is a walk for their services, is erasing the need for abortion.
And so our church is preparing for that.
We're trying to get the word out for that.
We're trying to be in touch with the community.
And there's always something to do.
And that issue in itself is a tall task.
So, again, working my vocational job, yes, it's demanding.
But I love it.
I'm in a position now as a detective where I can slow down a little bit, where I'm not on the beat and patrol, where now I'm doing investigations and things of that nature.
Navigating Dangerous Public Speech00:10:00
So it's good.
It's good.
I'm in a good place.
I'm in a good place so I can balance until the Lord takes me off of the job totally so I can devote myself to full time pastoring.
And that is your desire?
Because I will definitely be praying for that.
I didn't ask you that.
Previously, but is that what you would like to do?
Is vocational ministry?
It most certainly is.
It most certainly is.
Praise God.
I think that's great.
Okay, so we've talked about your church.
We've talked a little bit about policing.
We've talked about your family and your five kids, being a husband.
Towards the end of the show here, last thing kind of going back to the police department, going back to some of the crazy rhetoric and some of those big, you know, hot button issues in our culture today, Black Lives Matter, those kinds of things.
Recently, and I told you ahead of time I was going to ask you about this, and so hopefully you're not caught off guard, but recently there was some infamous tweets, or at least one from LeBron James, great at basketball, very poor in my assessment at social commentary.
I think he needs to just keep Keep dunking a basketball, you know, in a goal, and he'll do just fine.
But he likes to get involved and give his two cents from time to time.
And his two cents, I wish he'd just keep it in his pocket.
So, anyways, you know, he tweeted out, and this was the tweet that I'm referencing, this specific one.
He's fairly vocal from time to time, but this is the most recent one that I can think of.
He said, You're next, hashtag accountability.
He had a picture of the police officer, I believe it's the police officer who shot Micaiah Bryant, who is the young black woman who.
As far as we know, from the body cam footage, you know, but we should say just you know, because one is thought right until another cross-examines him.
So we should use the legal, you know terminology, the one uh, this black, young black woman who allegedly and so we'll say allegedly, um was attempting to stab with a knife another young black woman, and so anyway, so that was, that was, that was news, that that, you know uh, was very polarizing, and you know people, Lebron is a saint, saint Lebron, and then other people saying well wait wait, a second man, black lives matter.
Like this police officer technically, As far as we know, was saving a black life, namely the girl who was going to be stabbed by another girl.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
If LeBron, being as respectful as possible, if LeBron was sitting here in this video chat with us and this recording, what would you say to him?
How do you feel about the subject?
Well, I want to be gracious, of course, to the young man.
With his influence and his platform, the good he could do, the change he can make is so great.
And it's so sad, Joel, that he is using it for filthy lucre, to use the old term, the King James Version term.
I mean, to be that irresponsible, to be that irresponsible.
Black Lies, he wore the shirt.
He wore the shirt.
He's pumping the fists in protest, but he's not lining up with.
What he claims to fight for.
He's not lining up.
His speech is not lining up.
When you critique a police officer that has seconds to make a decision and you have no idea of the circumstances or the facts, and you come out so quickly and again, irresponsibly, it is so damaging because.
You have the ear of so many young people.
You have the ear of so many of the culture, young and old.
You have fans of all ages listening to you, and they pay attention to what you're saying.
And now you are putting in jeopardy and danger the life of everyone when you say or when you put out that kind of rhetoric.
And even this is not the first time he's tweeted.
I believe in 2020, he's tweeted something like, You know, the police are hunting us down every day, something to that matter.
It was just grossly irresponsible.
And you know that's not true.
And I think he added every time we step out of the homes, LeBron, please, out of your home.
Every time you step out of your home, they're, I mean, that's just so hypocritical.
And it is dangerous, though.
And then you have the echoing of other athletes and actors and entertainers.
Advising people to resist the police.
You know, you just put not only that person and that police, but everybody that can suffer from that interaction in danger.
And so for LeBron to continue to talk about, and then he uses accountability.
There's no accountability because if there was, you would not have tweeted that tweet.
And, you know, you just continue to use your platform for bad as opposed to what you could be using it for.
And I just think it's just grossly unfortunate that he would say what he said and then put, you know, blast that officer putting his picture there and all of that.
And again, as you mentioned, we forget to see that he saved a life.
He actually saved a life.
I mean, I can't imagine that he wanted him not to shoot the young lady and let her get stabbed.
To death by the other young lady.
But it's just, again, it's unfortunate.
And I wish he would not.
If you're going to voice your opinion, don't use it as a weapon.
Don't use it as a weapon, as a divisive tool, because that's what I think ultimately he's doing.
He's doing, and he's creating an unbelievable danger, an unbelievable danger.
When you say the police are hunting us down, when you say you're next, people that are.
Are not thinking, will act on those words.
They will act on those words, absolutely.
And then I don't think and I don't believe that that's what he wants, but the careless tweets will be the result of it, for sure.
Yeah, I was going to ask you, that's really good.
I was going to ask you in that light, you said two things.
You said it's hypocritical, and I completely agree with you, and I think that's palpable.
I think the hypocrisy.
Of, you know, not just to pick on LeBron, but anybody in the limelight, in the spotlight, you know, to say something like, you know, like the moment we step out of our homes, it's like, you step out of your home, how much does your home cost?
You probably have private security, you know, all these, like, so it's hypocritical.
That's clear.
But I like that you said, Mark, you said, you know, it's also irresponsible.
And I just wanted to kind of ask, and it sounds like you're already saying this, but I wanted to ask you in terms of that irresponsibility of putting the picture, Right, it's one thing the social commentary, you know, and for it to be hypocritical and backwards and upside down and just untrue, um, as far as we can tell.
Um, but but for it to be irresponsible, putting the picture of the police officer, and I wanted to ask you from you know somebody who serves on the force, um, from from your kind of talk some inside baseball here that would that police officer would he is he in does that actually would that put him in physical danger?
Because I would imagine it would absolutely what so.
Oftentimes, now you see the movements, Black Lives Matter, Antifa, the various people that hate the police, that yell, defund the police, and all of those types of things.
They're on a mission to destroy officers, especially those that are in the limelight.
And so now, when you have someone of LeBron's status putting a picture there, and I'm not sure, so I'm not sure if he put.
The name, but the name was out there already.
So I'm sure that's not hard to get.
But now you have people capitalizing on that and going after, searching, and they show up at your job, they'll show up at your house, they'll show up in your neighborhood.
Yes, he's in danger.
Yes, he's in danger for putting his name on blast and putting his picture there.
Because again, the crazies, For lack of a better word, those that have no sense and no care for life, they will act on that.
Urgency to Reach LeBron00:10:38
So, yes, absolutely, without a doubt, he would be in danger for doing something like that.
And I believe that's why the suing.
That's what I assume.
I believe he's suing him for that very reason or one among them.
Good.
Yeah, it just makes me think, you know, maybe we can wrap up with this, but it just makes me think of James chapter 1, verse 19.
Well, we could do 19, verse 19 through 21.
It says this, Know this, my beloved brothers, let every person be quick to listen or to hear and slow to speak.
And slow, and it's pretty interesting how speaking and anger are listed side by side slow to speak and slow to anger, as though one produces the other.
Verse 20 now says, For the anger of man, a fleshly carnal anger, not a righteous indignation that a Christian man might have from time to time, but the fleshly carnal anger of man.
Does not produce the righteousness or the holiness of God.
Therefore, because of that truth, man's anger doesn't produce God's righteousness.
Let us put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word which is able to save your souls.
And I think of the way you started answering my question in terms of LeBron James and that particular tweet.
You used the old King James.
What did you say?
What was the term you used?
Filthy lucre.
Yeah, there it is.
And so I just think of filthiness, filthy lucre, all of that.
I think you nailed it.
That's precisely what it is.
And I think part of it is it's the kind of language, we could say the nature, the quality of language, filthy lucre.
And that's what James chapter 1 gets to at the end of those three verses in verse 21.
What it starts with in verse 19 is that it's not just the quality or the nature of the language, that it's filthy, that it's vile, that it's ignorant, but it starts in verse 19 by saying, It's rash.
It's too quick.
It's too quick.
You're quick to speak, but you should be quick to listen, quick to hear, quick to research, we might say, quick to study, quick to think, all those kinds of things, and slow to speak.
And I think in our world with celebrities, and then not just celebrities, because there was a time where there were celebrities, but a celebrity would have to go, you know they'd have to go to some journalist.
You know they'd have to go, you know they'd have to go to some kind of public event, you know where there were news, you know news anchors or news reporters and things like that some kind of press event.
But now you know, I mean, that was the whole thing with Trump.
You know, like I I appreciated a lot of his policies um, but man his, his twitter account got him in trouble um, fairly often, and and part of it was just the fact that you know the president is gonna, is gonna be making public addresses quite often, but and and that's just historically, that's always been the case, But even more so when that president doesn't need to go to the press.
He doesn't have to call a press conference or anything like that.
He doesn't have to get the cameras ready.
He doesn't have to put on the makeup.
He can literally, it could be three in the morning and President Trump's rolling over in bed.
And he's like, an idea just popped in my head.
I think I'll just shoot it out there to 40 million people on Twitter.
And it's like, well, I wish you wouldn't.
I prefer you just, why don't you just sit on that?
Just, why don't you sleep on that one?
Let it marinate a little bit.
And so my whole point is just to say it's always been biblically true.
That we should be quick to listen and slow to speak because a quickness in speech lends towards a quickness.
Quick speech lends towards quick anger.
And man's quick, hot anger does not produce the righteousness of God.
And so that's always been true biblically.
But now, with just monumental celebrities coupled with social media, And an iPhone in their pocket, and all in technology, it's just the temptation to speak immediately is before all of us.
All of us.
And that includes you and I.
That includes Christians and pastors.
I mean, as a pastor, there have been some times where there's a current event and I'm thinking, I want to do a podcast on this like we're doing right now, you know, or where it's the Lord's Day is coming.
Something happens on Saturday night.
It's a global, you know, I mean, or at least national event.
And it's like, I got to say something on this.
And I think all of us just feel, whether you're a pastor, whether you're a Christian, whether you're LeBron James, whoever you are, all of us feel the kind of urgency. that used to only a news reporter would feel.
You know what I mean?
And now it's like all of us fancy ourselves to be kind of like, like, you know, private detectives and, you know, news reporters.
And we all have to, you know, what's your statement?
Why haven't you made a statement?
Why didn't you put a black square on your, on your Facebook page?
Why didn't you say something?
Why didn't, you know, and it's like, man, you know what?
Like I don't think the Bible really, I don't think the Bible advocates for that.
As a Christian, I feel like the Bible often says, why don't you not say something?
Why don't you wait at least a few days?
Let a week go by.
Think about this.
Pray about this.
Let's see if some more things come to light before we cast.
Because ultimately, our statements is our casting of judgment.
And I think that's what's frustrating.
And I see guys like LeBron casting a hypocritical and irresponsible judgment because that's what it is.
It's a judgment.
And in some sense, it's a hit.
It's putting out a hit on that police officer.
But I have to look inward.
And I think you'll agree with it.
I have to look inward at the end of the day and think.
Man, like, I don't have millions of fans.
I'm not nearly as popular as LeBron James, but I've got a few people who follow me.
And how often am I tempted to make that statement about the big hot button issue that just happened less than 24 hours ago because I want to be seen.
I want to be heard.
I love the glory that comes from men rather than the glory that comes from God.
And there is a sense of urgency.
People are demanding an answer.
They want to know, what does John MacArthur think about you know, what is John Piper going to say about, but I think if we're wise, the Bible has answers to these things and biblically faithful men will be able to find those answers.
But sometimes they can't find them in three hours.
And sometimes they don't fit into 140 characters on a tweet.
And so, you know what I mean?
Sometimes it's, yeah, the Bible does address this.
And I'll get back to you in a week.
And that's just going to have to be sufficient.
Because the Bible commands that I'm slow to speak and slow to anger.
And the quick answers and quick statements and rash judgments, it produces the anger of man that doesn't lead towards the righteousness of God.
I'll give you the floor as we close out here.
Do you have any final thoughts or anything you want to share?
Well, again, I appreciate the opportunity to be with you, Joel.
It's been a joy just to get to know you, man.
And I look forward to many more encounters and conversations.
As we depart, I just want people, as I said, I wanted to be gracious to LeBron because he needs to know the Lord.
He needs to be saved.
And he has such an influence on people that, again, as I said, I wish he would not have said it.
But as you all just said so rightly, that we need to look in, we need to look in, consider ourselves in all these matters, and continue to stand for the truth and be ready with an answer.
To answer the culture, to reject the ways, as Deuteronomy says, be careful, be careful in how you live, and be careful that you don't forget God.
I love what John MacArthur says about the culture.
He says, Be an expert in your Bible and you'll know how to answer the culture.
And as we're departing, and I just want the listeners to know that, again, whatever is coming up, the Bible is the Word of God and is the answer for everything, every ideology, every argument, everything that's coming our way, the Word of God is sufficient.
Every major battle, as a matter of fact, when Jesus Christ was tempted, The three words that came out of his mouth first is it is written.
And how much more we, the people of God, will battle against Satan, will battle against the culture and the society with it is written.
It is still sufficient, it is still powerful, it is still sharper than any two edged sword.
And so, with that said, I want the people to know that we know that we will win, the church will win.
No matter how bad, I know John Owens says that, yeah, we'll suffer decay and we'll have some decline, but no one will overtake the kingdom of God.
No one will ultimately overtake the kingdom of God.
And so I am encouraged with that, that God is not only enough, he is all.
He is all.
And so I praise God for this opportunity, and I praise God for you.
So, thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks, Mark.
I appreciate it.
I'm grateful for you as well.
And I look forward to continuing a friendship and having you back on the show, Lord willing, sometime soon.
So, thanks for coming on.
Absolutely.
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