Pastor Joel Webben and Pastor Michael Roundtree argue that children are divine blessings, urging Christians to fulfill the Genesis 1:28 mandate by prioritizing procreation over economic fears or overpopulation statistics. They condemn modern birth control methods like the pill and IUDs for potential post-fertilization abortion, advocating instead for natural family planning or condoms during fertile windows. While acknowledging exceptions for maternal health, they reject limiting families due to resource scarcity, asserting that greed causes poverty rather than population size. Ultimately, the discussion challenges listeners to view offspring as spiritual weapons against abortion culture and trust God's provision without judging smaller families. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Pastor Michael at Wellspring00:02:12
Applying God's word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right.
Welcome to another episode of Theology Applied with Right Response Ministries.
I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webben.
Today, I am honored and privileged to have as a guest Pastor Michael Roundtree with Wellspring Church in DFW, Bedford, right, Michael?
Is that the.
Yeah, pretty much.
North Richmond Hills.
I mean, it's just north of Fort Worth, basically.
Great.
So Michael is a pastor at Wellspring.
I used to be a member at Wellspring Church back when I was in college.
Michael was actually my mentor.
What year was that?
Was that 2007?
Oh, man.
That was probably.
That was a long time.
Are you going to tell the story about the excommunication?
I was not excommunicated.
I was not excommunicated.
But yeah, so anyway, so me and Michael.
You're like for clarity.
Yeah, we go way back, which is great.
And we've been friends for a long time.
He's also.
A co host on Remnant Radio.
And so some of you might recognize him from that ministry.
And so today, the topic that we're going to be discussing is Christians and birth control.
And before we hop into the topic, I want to just give Michael a chance to talk about his ministry and introduce himself a little bit more.
Sure.
I've been the pastor of Wellspring Church for, I guess, since 2012.
I've been actually a pastor at the church since 2005.
And so, been here a long time at Wellspring.
And we also, you can see this background around me.
He mentioned Remnant Radio.
It's a theology broadcast.
YouTube's our biggest platform.
We have pastors, theologians from all over the world, and try to help people bust out of their theological echo chambers and hear from somebody different.
We have Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, non denominational, charismatics, everything.
So, anyway, so that's what we do.
So, there's the church, there's There's the podcast.
Biblical Mandate for Multiplication00:15:37
I'm working on a book right now.
I'm about two thirds of the way through on the book of Revelation.
And I'm going to try to demystify it a little bit and walk through chapter by chapter, but do it in a way that's inspirational and devotional.
So, anyway, you can look for that coming down the road.
But anyway, so those are some things.
Cool.
Thanks, man.
Well, I'm glad that you're here.
Glad you're on the show.
And again, our topic is going to be Christians and birth control.
There's a lot of different views on this subject.
And It certainly tends to be controversial, at least for some.
But I think it's something worthwhile, something worth talking about.
And I believe the scripture addresses it.
Both Michael and I, we don't only tip our hat to the inerrancy of scripture, but we also believe in the sufficiency of scripture.
When it comes to the perspicuity of scripture or the clarity, perspicuity is just a very unclear word that means clarity.
And so a bit of irony there.
But the perspicuity of scripture, we believe the scripture is clear.
That doesn't mean the scripture is equally clear on all subjects, on all topics.
But we do believe that the scripture is clear.
And we do believe that it speaks to all of life and doctrine and that the scripture is not just authoritative, inerrant, but that it's also sufficient, meaning that it can be applied, that it has something to say for all of life.
So the kind of an illustration that's helpful is just, you know, a sword.
You know, the scripture is likened to a double-edged sword or sharper than any double-edged sword.
And so we don't want to just tip our hats to the authority of scripture and say, there's a sword.
It's a great sword.
It's a double-edged sword.
It's a sharp sword.
And you can see it on the mantle, clearly displayed in the glass case.
Well, we want to go a step further and say, And we're going to wield the sword like founders Tom Askell and Jared Longshore, those guys, you know, wield the sword.
We're going to pick it up and we're going to actually use it.
We don't just acknowledge that is a sword, but we want to be useful with the sword.
We believe it's not just sharp, but it's also sufficient.
So, all that being said, we believe the Bible speaks to this issue.
That doesn't mean that the Bible speaks to this issue as clearly as it might speak to salvation or other issues.
However, we think the Bible has something to say.
And so I just kind of want to pick Michael's brain, and we're just going to dialogue and talk back and forth.
And I'm not even convinced that we'll agree on every finite detail and nuance.
In fact, I'm pretty certain we probably won't.
But I think in general, we both have the same idea because we both have the same Bible and the same Lord, and we love Him and we love each other.
So, that being said, let's go ahead and just jump right in.
The first question that I have is What is the cultural mandate found in Genesis 1, verse 28?
And is it equally as binding on New Testament Christians today, now that the world contains nearly 8 billion people, as it was on Adam and Eve in the very beginning?
So, the cultural mandate be fruitful and multiply.
We're talking about birth control.
Well, the idea of being fruitful, multiplying.
I think a lot of Christians would say, Haven't we done that, Michael, Joel?
I feel like, you know, like there's a lot of things we've messed up as human beings, but can't we check that one off a list?
You know, I think we nailed it.
So, yeah, is the cultural mandate as relevant today as it was in the garden?
Yeah.
Well, is it helpful to let all the pagans have the kids and we Christians, we can just try to convert the pagans?
Is that so?
Yeah, let me just read the cultural mandate Genesis 1 28.
God blessed them.
God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply.
And fill the earth and subdue it.
So it wasn't just about filling the earth with sufficient population, but also subduing it, have dominion over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, the heavens and the living creatures and all that moves.
And so the point in man having dominion was to make the earth look like God rules over it.
And so I think one question I would ask is yes, we have lots of people, but has this mass multiplication of people caused the earth to look like God rules over it?
I would say no.
Okay.
So, and I think most of us would.
So, just as God rules over the heavens and the earth, man was to rule over the earth.
And then to kind of zoom forward, New Testament, I do think there is a connection between the Great Commission, therefore, go and make this all authority on heaven and earth.
So, you see the kingdom dimension, which carries with it a subduing and a filling and subduing the earth.
There's certainly a connection.
We see kingdom in seed form in the cultural mandate in Genesis 1.
We see it more fully in Jesus resurrected as cosmic Lord and King.
And then he commissions us.
And what I would say is the Great Commission is not a replacement of the cultural mandate.
The Great Commission is in some ways like a renewal of, because Adam and Eve were always called and their offspring always called.
Genesis 3, the seed of the woman was always called, Israel was always called.
To be a light to the nations.
Israel wasn't chosen to just have a bunch of babies in their own little cloister over here in Palestine.
Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations.
So, in a sense, they were called to make disciples.
Now, did Jesus bring clarity as to what it looks like to make disciples?
Yes, he did.
Is there a new era of history that was launched in Jesus?
Yes, there was.
The law came through Moses, but grace and truth came.
Through Jesus Christ, there is greater light, there is greater clarity, there is greater revelation, et cetera, in Jesus.
But I would look at the Great Commission as almost like a renewal of the cultural mandate, not a replacement of.
I'm not saying they're exactly the same thing, but.
I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the Great Commission doesn't replace the cultural mandate, it's a renewal.
And I would agree with that.
For me, I would probably just maybe even use the language of like it's a clarification.
I like what you said, like just clear.
You know, I think that both of us would agree in terms of Old Testament saints in regards to.
Soteriology, how they were saved, we would say that all people in all times, in all places before the cross, after the cross, have only been saved in one way, and that's through by grace, through faith in the Messiah, in Christ.
And what we have on this side of the cross is we have the privilege, and it is a great privilege to be able to look back with greater clarity at the person and work of Jesus.
Whereas Old Testament saints before the cross were trusting in Jesus, but for Adam and Eve, you know, all they really knew of Jesus is that he was the serpent crusher.
You know, and Abraham, he knew that he was the promised seed, you know, and so there's, you know, David knew that he was a king and the government would be upon his shoulders and that he would sit one day on his throne and rule the nations and righteousness.
And, you know, and so we have this further kind of progressive clarifying revelation of the Savior in terms of salvation.
But that doesn't mean that there's a new way now that people are saved.
It means they're all saved the same way and we're just learning more about it.
And I think in the same way, taking dominion over the earth, I think there's a clarifying in the Great Commission.
The Great Commission is a clarifying in many ways, a clarification of the cultural mandate.
I don't think it's meant to replace it.
I like the language that's meant to renew it, refresh it.
But I think in some ways it's kind of like what Jesus in the Sermon of the Mount.
You have heard it has been said or it has been written.
But I tell you, and Jesus isn't coming and replacing the law, but he's clarifying.
But I tell you, if you even lessen your heart, or I tell you, and so Jesus is further clarifying, he's further clarifying.
Describing and detailing the tenets of the law on the Sermon on the Mount.
And I think Jesus, likewise, kind of the same concept, same principle, I think that he's giving us more clarity, more vision on the great or the cultural mandate.
I think in the garden with Adam and Eve, this mandate before sin had ever even entered the world, I think there were some assumptions baked into the equation.
This idea that Adam and Eve were going to produce godly offspring, you know.
But after the fall, after sin enters the world, and then after Christ, It's like, hey, keep being fruitful and multiplying, but let's bring in the discipleship piece with more clarity because it can't be assumed any longer.
I think there's some of that there.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, you know, I'm just kind of thinking about right now.
I'm thinking about Isaiah 56.
It's in a section that's speaking of the eschatological future of the people of God.
And it says to the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, actually, I want to back up a little bit Isaiah 56, 3 let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, The Lord will surely separate me from his people.
Let not the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
So it's speaking about a time when foreigners are going to come into the kingdom of God.
This is the same passage that soon we'll be talking about.
My house will be a house of prayer for all nations.
So it's talking about the coming of Christ.
I'm actually just kind of thinking out loud here.
I don't have a drawn conclusion.
So maybe you can help me out, Joel.
But I'm specifically interested in this eunuch's piece because Jesus in Matthew 19 will pick up on this and he'll.
When he talks about, you know, there are people who were made eunuchs, there are people who choose to be eunuchs for the people, you know, for the kingdom of God.
And it's a strange idea.
Yeah, right.
So, it's a strange idea in the time of Jesus because, like, being a eunuch was pretty much not acceptable, right?
Like, it was always bad.
In fact, Pharisees would, like, they would marry somebody in order to fulfill the cultural mandate and have children, and then they would divorce their spouse so that they could be like, okay, now I'm free and clear.
I did my duty, right?
Like, it was unacceptable to just not have kids.
And yet, Jesus didn't have kids.
And so, I'm just.
Again, I'm kind of reflecting on this out loud and just kind of processing.
I don't know if that sparks any thoughts for you, Joel, but I think it speaks to something that was a shift in the commission to make disciples.
It's not as though prior to the Great Commission, they weren't supposed to make disciples of all nations to shine their light to all nations.
They were.
But I think what I would say is the one dimension of clarity that it brought was that there was a place.
For singleness in the kingdom of God, like lifelong celibacy in the kingdom of God.
Because I can't think of an Old Testament text that speaks of celibacy in a positive light.
I mean, you have Daniel who's forced into that position, but the command was, you do this.
And so, if anything, it seems like the Great Commission does open it up that you can be like Jesus and Paul, that you can choose to be that eunuch and to not bear children and to do it for the kingdom of God.
But those are outside of marriage contexts, okay?
Exactly.
We don't have.
That's what I would say.
We don't have any example in the scripture, old or certainly not, either Testament, that says it's okay to be married and capable of having children and opt not to, supposedly so that you can make lots of disciples.
So, what do you think of all that?
I'm with you.
I completely agree.
Like, there is a place for lifelong singleness in scripture.
By choice, which I think that's what we're meant to assume in the case of Paul and certainly in the case of Christ.
But then sometimes it's not by choice.
And I think that singleness can be a form of suffering for some and perhaps even for many, especially if it's not something that's chosen.
I don't know.
I don't think that that means that the person actually has the gift of celibacy.
But I think that God's grace is sufficient and that they're capable of obeying all of Christ's commands in the context of their singleness, even if it's not something they voluntarily chose.
But whether it's chosen or whether it's not, I think that the New Testament and Christ himself and especially Paul, 1 Corinthians 7, like he gives a certain level of esteem to those who are single.
There's a commendation that's given.
But I think the cultural mandate, we have to keep in mind, it's not given to Adam alone.
It's not given to Adam as a single man.
It's not given to Eve as a single woman.
The cultural mandate is given to a married couple.
So I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, that it's not so much that God is giving the cultural mandate to each and every individual person.
Many who might be single, but I think he is giving them to each and every married couple.
Those who are married, yeah, it doesn't seem like New Testament or Old Testament, there's any alternative option of, yeah, opting out of procreation, opting out of childbearing.
There's one thing I wanted to comment on earlier when you were saying, you know, fill the earth, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, exercise dominion.
I just wanted to say, in terms of the earth as creation, physical creation, the birds of the air, the fish of the sea, The cosmos.
In that sense, it's important that we understand dominion, I think, in the same way that Adam was given dominion over his wife.
Adam named all the animals.
He named Eve.
He named his own wife.
Husbands have a measure of, biblically, a measure of dominion over their wife.
We don't like that word because it sounds dominating.
And that has a negative kind of, I think we just impute into that an abusive connotation.
But that's what lordship is.
Like Sarah, the women of old, she called Abraham her.
Lord, lowercase l, but Lord.
And so there's this headship, this authority, this lordship and dominion.
And it's meant to be, in regards to a husband relating with his wife, it's just meant to be a dominion that's modeled after Christ.
It's a sacrificial, self-sacrificing, loving dominion.
It's not ripped of authority, but it's also not cold with an absence of love.
And so too, I think the idea, so when we say that Christians are called, we're called to be not just Christians, but people, the cultural mandate is given to all people.
To be fruitful, multiply, to fill the earth and subdue it.
We're not saying, because people say, man, well, that's why we have a problem, overpopulation, things that both of us would strongly push back on.
But my point is that this dominion, it's the same dominion that a loving husband exercises with his wife, that Christ exercises with the church.
It's a dominion that cultivates the earth.
It doesn't consume the earth for self interested.
Absolutely.
The raw wilderness of the earth cultivates it.
And and um, and taps it for its greatest potential.
It's absolutely go ahead, go ahead, yeah.
Uh, well, I was gonna say so, like, humans are the only creatures that can turn grain into bread or grapes into wine because we're able to take the natural elements of the earth, you called them the raw materials, and turn them into something beautiful and good, which is actually.
Cultivating the Earth's Potential00:05:18
The picture we have of God in creation.
And so, you know, God doesn't create Adam ex nihilo.
He creates him out of dust.
That's true.
And he creates Eve out of a rib.
And the entire earth was not the Garden of Eden, just the Garden of Eden was the Garden of Eden.
That's right.
And they were to make the whole thing look like that.
They were the whole thing, make the whole thing look cultivated.
So Genesis 2 gives us a picture of what subduing the earth looks like.
Part of it is the cultivating of the garden.
And so they're to take the raw materials of the earth and turn them.
Into wonderful things.
Okay.
Now, man, because our image was broken in the fall, what we end up doing is just like they did in the Tower of Babel, they use their great technology, which at the time was bricks, you know, that incredible technology, bricks.
But for them, it was.
And they build a tower in defiance of God.
And ever since, you know, ever since the fall, we've been using our technology, we've been using our developments to harm people, to figure out how we can kill more of them rather than building them up.
But if more Christians are having kids and raising their kids to love and fear the Lord and making disciples of all nations, then gradually that leaven spreads across the whole lump.
Gradually, the kingdom of God fills the earth and becomes a better place.
Yep.
It starts small, grows slowly, and becomes significant.
One pastor said.
Whoa.
How do you remember that?
Hey, I preached that.
Yeah.
I was like, that sounds familiar.
That was like five or six years ago.
I still remember it.
It was good.
It was pretty solid, bro.
Yeah, the mustard seed, a little bit of leaven.
There you go.
Yeah, I like what you're saying that, you know, that the Garden of Eden, the whole world was now, and it's difficult, I think, for us to wrap our minds around it because we know that thorns, thistles entered into the world as a result of the curse because of sin.
So we know that work was not the curse, right?
We know that the fact that the ground would work against man was the curse.
The fact that work would be vexing, that it would be frustrating, that it would be hard.
Well, I would go further and say that it would be really hard.
I think hard work.
Was always God's intent.
So I think the man was going to work.
And I think he was going to work hard.
There weren't going to be thorns and thistles.
The ground wasn't going to be working against him.
But I think he would probably crawl in bed a little tired at the end of the day if sin had still never entered the world.
And his primary vocation that God gave to him, his kind of marching commands, were to work and keep.
And I think work is to cultivate, it's to maintain.
But I think there's also in that kind of baked into the equation an implication, a commandment to expand, to advance.
That the garden was going to grow, that its borders were going to widen and expand.
And so he's going to work.
And then to keep, he's going to defend.
It's like advance and defend.
Advance and defend.
And that's what we were going to do.
And we're going to basically, Adam was going to, you could say that with the cultural mandate, like he was going to be fruitful and multiply.
So he was going to create people.
And that's a big part of the equation.
And I would argue the biggest is image bearers of the living God, reflecting, radiating the glory of God in his creation.
But they also were going to expand.
Their home, the garden.
And I like to think that this theophany, I would consider it to be Christ, actually, who walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the day.
Christ, before he had obviously been incarnate and taken on flesh, but Christ, who is eternal.
And just like we would say the Holy Spirit, or if God the Father would say he's a most pure spirit without body parts and passions, we would say that Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, was a most pure spirit without body parts and passions until in real time in human history, he took on flesh.
And so before that, You know, whether it's the burning bush or whether it's the angel of the Lord and Joshua, or perhaps, you know, the angels and one of them, you know, who approach Abraham or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego thrown into the flame.
And there's a fourth man whose face is shining like the sun.
I would say that all those are theophanies, and it's actually Jesus.
And so Jesus is, I believe, walking in spirit, and that's difficult for us to understand, but he's walking a theophany of Christ, a visible, a visible, I don't know, appearance of Christ, but without human flesh, walking with Adam and Eve in the garden.
And it's this idea that they're going to create more and more image bearers, more and more worshipers of the triune God, and they're going to expand the garden.
And I like to think that Jesus is just going to keep on every evening, the cool of the day, walking with all of them.
And Jesus is going to be walking over the face of the earth as his image bearers are walking over the face of the earth, and not just in wilderness or deserts, but they were going to.
You know, there might have been some deserts even before sin entered the world, but the garden was going to expand.
They were going to figure out irrigation and cultivation and all that.
And it was just going to be a worldwide garden filled with people, filled with vegetation and beauty and ingenuity and all these things.
And best of all, Jesus was going to fill the garden and be with them.
Yeah.
Filling the Earth with Image Bearers00:02:50
Yeah.
So, you know, in ancient Near Eastern thought, and specifically for our purposes, Israelite thought, a garden was a place.
In ancient Near Eastern thought, it was the place where the gods met.
But for Israel, it was the place where God was.
It was essentially their temple.
And in a sense, the whole earth was, when you read the creation story, it's portrayed as sort of like God's temple.
The words that you used to tend and to keep, the Levite priests were to tend and to keep the tabernacle.
And so it's the temple of God.
And whereas every other nation filled their temple with images, with idols, Israel was expressly forbidden by that.
Why?
Why?
Because we are his image.
We are, in a sense, his idol.
We don't like that word, but his image on the earth.
And so God created us in that way as true living, breathing idols, so to speak, images of him, unlike the nations that had these phony wooden things that they propped up in their temple.
And so, my point is that as we propagate, as we multiply, Filling the earth with more of these image bearers to continue to tend and to keep the entire earth to make it look like him.
So, yeah, I think, you know, Joel, when you first asked me about like this topic and you're like, what do you think about birth control?
And I think my response was, I think Christians should have lots of kids.
And this is just, I just want to touch on like why this is so important because I feel like Christians are too affected by the culture.
And the culture is like, have one kid, maybe have two if you can afford it.
Three, that's just a handful.
Four, you're just crazy.
And I just think, did you come to that conclusion because you read the Bible?
Or did you come to that conclusion because that's the way it is in culture?
I saw, this is a couple years ago, I saw the cover of a magazine.
It was actually Newsweek, and it said the title was Having It All, But Not Having Kids.
And it was the trend of young people, you know, wait till you're 35 to get married, maybe 37, 39, the last possible year, like before you might be able to have kids.
Now, it's one thing if it just happens that way for you.
Okay.
That's one thing.
It's another thing if you're just like living the single life, living it up, doing your thing.
And then you finally get married at the last minute.
Strategic Reasons for Family Size00:14:44
And then you're like, well, okay.
And then you're going to have kids at like 42, one kid.
And I'm just like, this isn't the way God designed it.
It's really not.
God designed us.
Actually, I think it's better to get married younger if you can.
We don't all have that choice.
Amen.
And I actually feel saddened for females, Christian females, because a lot of dudes don't know how to man up.
They don't know how to ask a woman on a date.
Dude, total side note.
Okay, side note, but it's kind of related.
My 13 year old daughter, I overheard her on the phone today, like just this single line.
She said, if a guy's not even willing to ask me out on a date, He's not worth going out with, or he's not worth having as a boyfriend.
I was like, yay.
But, you know, I think dudes should just go ask girls out.
Like, my dad taught me that.
He's like, dude, pursue the girl, man.
And anyway, I just think we've gotten backwards.
Dudes, part of your responsibility, pursue the woman, like, woo her, and then get married younger.
Blesses a man who has children in his youth.
Psalm 127.
That's what I was going to say.
Youth is a key phrase.
Rejoice in the life of your youth.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Psalm 127 is a key one.
We should focus on it.
Like, if the Bible speaks this way of children, then why don't we think this way?
I get it.
You know, Charles Spurgeon said, before children are a quiver full, they're often a handful.
They are.
But let me read Psalm 127.
It says, Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchmen stand awake in vain.
It is in vain that you rise up.
Early and go to go late to rest, eating the bread of anxious toil, for he gives to his beloved sleep.
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb, a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth.
Blesses the man who fills his quiver with them, he shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.
Now, this is a psalm of ascent, and uh, and so it's uh, psalm 120 through uh, I want to say it's 135, and um, and so.
Wow, rain's really coming down.
Anyway, so it's a handful of Psalms, and this specific one is by Solomon.
And it's interesting because it sounds like it's two different Psalms into one.
Like one's about the Lord building the house and protecting the city, and then the other is like, have a bunch of kids.
But they're actually connected because how does the Lord build your house, Joel?
By you having lots of kids.
And in fact, how does the Lord protect the city?
Through the kids that you have.
And so the two themes of house and city, the Lord is the one who builds the house, the Lord is the one who protects the city, arise again in the last few verses when it says that, okay, you won't be put to shame by your enemies at the city gate.
So there's the city part.
And then the fruit of the womb, a reward, a heritage from the Lord.
Like you see, like both of these, it's the house and the The house and the city being built up, being protected.
And that part about arrows in the hands of a warrior, the idea there is that, you know, like if I'm standing here and I take an arrow and I shoot it, the arrow ends up over there.
That's the heritage.
That is the blessing that the next generation goes further than I could go.
And so these are, this is, and it's also, I think, fitting that Solomon wrote this because when you talk about building a house, David wanted to build a house for the Lord, but the Lord said no.
Solomon got to be the one who did it.
And so it's actually a living illustration of it.
The next generation takes it further.
Now, Solomon got into his own messes and all of that.
But, point being, that if, overall point being, if the Lord considers this a blessing, why don't we?
Yep.
I think that's an important question to ask.
Yeah, I completely agree.
That's kind of my next question was, you know, it had to do with Psalm 127, 3 through 5.
So I'm glad you brought it up.
And, Just kind of with that, you know, I wrote this.
If children are a blessing from the Lord and a man is said to be especially blessed if his quiver is full, if he has implication being many children, what reasons, if any, might be considered as legitimate for intentionally mitigating the blessings of God?
And I think that's, for me, that's what it comes down to is I'm just not convinced that people in our culture today, and I think it's seeped into the church as well, I'm not convinced that people, and sadly, even some Christians, actually see children as blessings.
Because there's a lot of things that we do consider to be blessings.
And I don't really see people clamoring to put up buffers and boundaries and to like, don't want to be too blessed.
We've got blessings pouring in.
Money is a blessing, right?
It's the love of money that's the root of all evil, but money is a blessing.
And you don't see a whole lot of people, gosh, I just, I really need to find some kind of strategy to make less money.
I'm just making too much money.
I got to slow down this cash flow.
I want to mitigate that.
That blessing.
You don't really see people having that kind of mindset when it comes to many other things that the Bible calls blessings.
But we do often hear those kind of conversations when it comes to children.
And I'm not saying, you know, for me, and I'd like to get into this at the end, but in terms of the sin of owning, I do believe that there can be some measure of ethical, careful family planning for the Christian.
But I think the whole purpose in that is to be strategic.
And so maybe you're pausing for a moment, but it's to be strategic so that you can have as many children as possible and provide for them and have not just a bunch of crappy arrows, for lack of a better term, but quality matters too.
We want to have good arrows.
And so I think someone saying, like, hey, okay, we're going to wait a couple of years before we have our next kid.
Um, depending on the reasons, you know, like there may still be some idolatry and you know, comfort idolatry and selfishness and things like that, but there could be some actually good reasons, um, for you know, but but but that's you know, because we want to have quality children, we want to have as many children as possible, we need maybe to pause now so we can have three more later, whatever it might be.
Um, but that's not the that's just not the conversations that I hear for me.
I feel like what I often hear is like what you were saying earlier, let's have one.
Maybe two, and that's all we're planning on having.
And I just, again, I just, I have a hard time believing that that individual actually sees children as a blessing because I can't think of really any other blessing where people would say, okay, there's a blessing.
God's willing to give it to me.
I just want one, just one blessing.
Just give me one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, the way I look at it is I look at it like, okay, you've got the cultural mandate, you have all of these scriptures that.
Treat children as a blessing.
Do we have the reality that kids are hard?
So, I have four kids.
Kids are really hard.
They're crazy hard.
There's nothing in the world harder than being a parent.
It's also hard to carry your cross, which happens to be the religion that we abide by, right?
Like, this is what God has called us to.
And it's actually not that hard to be a crappy parent.
Sorry, I shouldn't have maybe used that word, but I used it.
Okay.
It's not that hard, right?
But if you want to be a good parent, that is hard.
And so I look at it like, you know, as a general rule, we should want to have lots of kids because God values kids.
Therefore, I should value kids.
If I'm close to God, I will feel about things the way God feels about things.
And if I feel differently about things than God does, that's because I'm not close to God or at least not in that area.
That's an area of growth.
And so that's the first thing.
Because.
I think we have to start there before we get into the nitty gritty of birth control, which is why you kind of have this series of questions starting very big.
I think that's important because we establish the value first.
Because we might disagree on some of the finer points, as you said at the very beginning.
But the big thing, and if there was anything else that I wanted people to walk away from, is kids should be valued, highly, highly, highly valued.
And that if you are married, you're called to have them if you're capable of having them.
And if you're not, I would invite you to receive prayer for that.
And lots of people in the Bible receive prayer for that.
And God's miracle for that.
Yeah, but anyway, but that's actually part of the calling of marriage and a high and holy calling, and how we make this earth look more like the kingdom of heaven, more like God reigns.
So that's the big picture.
Now, to get more narrow and answer your specific question, might there be any reason I could see, like you mentioned, one, the strategic reason, which you said it sounded like what you were talking about was if you have another kid, like every single nine months.
You know, it might not be the highest quality of parenting that those kids are getting.
I could see where you're going with that.
You know, we might also say the health of the mother.
You know, like if, I mean, there's, like I know of a woman, she is Roman Catholic and she has five kids and she's continued to have more.
And the doctors have warned her against it.
Of course, Roman Catholics believe birth control is always wrong, except they actually.
They believe in the natural planning.
They're okay with that.
We can talk more about that later if you want.
But anyway, so she's planning to have more kids, but her uterus is so thin that they said it's like a transparency.
Like it's so thin, it could just rupture and kill.
And so she sees it as this is my martyrdom to give children life.
But it would be a martyrdom, in my opinion, in my opinion.
Although I actually really respect her as a woman of faith that she's like, I want to do this for God.
I get it.
And she does love Jesus.
I've.
You know, and she has a proper understanding of the gospel.
Anyway, but with that said, I look at it and I'm like, okay, martyr, but what about your other five kids that you presently have and your husband?
You know, health of the mother, I think, is a reasonable reason.
I agree.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
So I guess the other question is the other question is economic.
And.
Because that's honestly the biggest one that people are thinking about.
Because once upon a time, having more kids meant more hands in the field.
Right, exactly.
Now it means more mouths to feed.
And the way inflation is working right now, I don't know about your grocery bill, but mine's like $300 more than it was three years ago.
And with just the way the world is, most families either do or feel like they.
They need to have dual income.
Like, there's so many factors.
And here's, I think, what I would say.
First of all, I would just stick with the high level standard of kids are a blessing.
And then I would go from there to God provides daily bread.
So I would aim to trust God to have lots of kids and trusting that He would provide.
And I believe he gives great jobs to people who have more kids because they need it, people who are walking by faith.
You know, could there be a scenario where somebody chooses not to have more kids because they just can't afford them?
For the people of God, I think I have a little trouble with that.
I kind of feel like, you know what?
If it's the cultural mandate and God should supply the finances for it, that would probably, I don't know.
I would wrestle with it.
It's not like something I would excommunicate someone from my church over by any stretch.
But it's something that, like, if I was just sharing my pastoral heart, my pastoral heart would be, you know what, I would just really encourage you to trust the Lord with that.
Right.
And they just may have to make some changes.
I think part of it is like a willingness to adjust your life, you know, to, you know, for the sake of your children, lay your life down, to lay your preferences down.
And so there may, there just may be some changes.
It may be that you have to take a job that's not your favorite job, or it may be one less.
It may be that you have to move.
You know, yeah, yeah, or you may not be able to go somewhere else, live somewhere else.
You know, there could be other scenarios, right?
And for some people, though, truly, it is.
I mean, for some, it's like this is a real struggle, and for others, it's like, you know, I really like going on a thousand vacations and I like, you know, my luxurious, posh lifestyle and all of that, you know, which you know, and when you talk about mega wealthy people like having nannies raise their kids and all of that, I just think that's totally unbiblical.
I think.
Parents, you need to raise your kids because you're entrusted to raise them up in the instruction of the Lord.
Yep, I agree.
Motives Behind Childbearing Choices00:15:38
In terms of the overpopulation thing, if somebody, you know, I could just hear somebody like pushing back and saying, again, you know, I feel like we already filled the earth, we already subdued.
I understand that like maybe we'd want more of the 8 billion people to be Christians.
One thing that I would say on that, I'd like to hear your thoughts, but one thing I would say on that is just even for those who are unregenerate, even for those who are not Christians, we still believe in the Imago Dei, we believe in.
Common grace.
We believe that even fallen people, unregenerate people, non believers are still image bearers of the living God.
And the way I see this kind of the doctrine of original sin is it's kind of like in terms of the image of God and in what way has it been marred and what way is it still there's a vestige that still remains.
I see it as like original sin in my heart.
For the unbeliever, the heart is deceitful above all else, it's corrupted.
The person does not seek to honor God.
So I always say that like, You know, they cannot do, an unbeliever cannot do anything in faith is what I would say.
They cannot do anything in faith.
And I would define doing something in faith as doing it with a reliance on God's grace and a desire for God's glory.
So an unbeliever could cure cancer, but they're going to do it a reliance on their own strength or in their defense, maybe, you know, I couldn't have done it without my team.
You know, it's always, you got to give credit to the team.
So they do it on a reliance on maybe not their own strength, but they do it on a reliance on the strength of humanity.
And they do it for the glory of humanity or one portion of humanity, you know, and, and, But what they're not going to do is they're not going to do it with a reliance on God's grace and a desire for God's glory.
They're not going to do it in faith to the glory of God.
They may do things to the good of people, to the love of neighbor.
A non-Christian can love their neighbor at some level.
They'll never truly love their neighbor to the fullest extent, loving their neighbor's soul, their neighbor's eternal good, because that would involve believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ and pleading and imploring their neighbor to do the same.
And so they're not going to do that.
But my point is, There's a lot of good things building suspension bridges, curing cancer, you know, walking a sweet old lady across the street, um, going to war, you know, and and I mean, there's stories, I mean, heroic stories of people who are unregenerate.
There, as far as we know, they were unbelievers and they laid down their lives.
You know, they, you know, jumped in front of a bullet to save a comrade in arms.
And I mean, just incredible things.
And so, my point is, I think on the outside, at the risk of being overly simplistic, on the outside, image bearer, because of God's common grace and because of the Imago Dei, incredible, incredible things.
They can be very loving toward neighbor.
On the inside, your heart is deceitful above all else.
Out of it come wickedness and malice.
And so, On the inside, there's not a desire to glorify God.
So, even when you do good things, they're not done in faith, not with the reliance on God's grace or a desire for God's glory.
So, my point is this: my point is, I think the world, here's the funny thing, and I think Christians have bought into this to an extent.
I think the world has the exact opposite message.
I think the world says, on the inside, your heart is good.
You've got a good heart.
Got a good heart, man.
You know, you just got a good heart.
And on the inside, you know, you just need to find yourself.
Your biggest problem is the company that you keep.
You know, you just keep hanging out with those toxic people, you know, and Your biggest problem is you don't have enough self-esteem.
You don't have enough, you don't believe in yourself enough.
And so on the inside, you're really, really great.
But on the outside, you can still make some mistakes and you'll especially make mistakes because it's really other people's fault and somebody else's to blame and you're a victim and all that kind of stuff.
So I think the world kind of says like on the outside, people are, you know, may be bad.
They may make mistakes.
They may do, you know, negative things.
And part of that being not caring for the environment and using up resources and all these kids.
So on the outside, people aren't great.
But on the inside, they're awesome.
That's the pagan worldview.
Right on the outside, not great on the inside, heart of gold.
I think the Bible says the exact opposite.
It says on the outside, image of God, capable of curing cancer and creating suspension bridges and finding new sources for fuel and finding new ways to plant more crops and feed not just 8 billion people, but potentially 80 billion people, you know.
And so on the outside, amazing on the inside, the heart is the problem.
And and and that's that's the Christian worldview of original sin and the imago day.
And the pagan anti-Christian worldview is on the outside, that's the problem on the inside.
That's the heart of gold.
And my point is, as that relates to overpopulation, I think the pagan would say on the outside, people are leeches.
On the outside, people are consumers.
They are leeches.
They consume.
But on the inside, they have really good hearts.
But we need fewer of them because we can't.
Whereas the Christian would say on the outside, you're made in the imago day.
And people are not consumers, first and foremost.
But because you're made in the image of God, people are not consumers.
They are creators, lowercase c creators.
Like you said earlier, not ex nihilo.
But we're able to take the resources that God has provided us with and cultivate them and create a lowercase c, create, not out of nothing, but with what God has provided and do incredible things.
And so as a Christian, I keep thinking, you know, over the last 48 years of since Roe versus Wade, 60 million babies murdered in their mother's wombs.
You know, it's funny that Christians have, it's not funny, it's sad, but Christians who have bought into this overpopulation thing and this pagan anthropology view of man, I think that they would never say it out loud.
They would never verbalize it.
But I think if we strapped them to a chair and gave them truth serum and asked them point blank and forced them to answer, I think they would have to say, the fact that these children were aborted is murder.
It's wrong.
It's heinous.
But then that would all be followed with a quiet sigh of relief.
And I know that's the strong words, but like in their heart of hearts, but it is kind of nice that there's 60 million less people, you know, because look at the world and look at the toll and, you know, look at, you know, this and look at that.
And, you know, I mean, COVID, that's because of climate change.
I mean, it's got to be, you know, and that wouldn't have happened if you weren't driving your F 150.
And, you know, and so my point is just to say that with a Christian worldview and my anthropology, my view of man, I see people as creators.
So I look at the 60 million children in the last half of a century that have been murdered.
And I think.
Which one of them could have cured cancer?
Which one of them could have found some new source of energy?
Which one of them could have found a new way of growing crops to feed 100 times more people?
You know what I mean?
People make way for people.
Yeah, absolutely.
For sure.
No, I think that's a great point.
I mean, when we think about overpopulation, what are we afraid of might happen if we overpopulate the earth?
If you overpopulate the earth, people might die.
Hmm, let's think about that for a minute.
What's better?
Like, even in your worst case scenario, is it better that somebody never lives than that they live and then die, like all of us do anyway?
I think I'd still be better to have people live and die, right?
Like, their worst case scenario is actually not that bad.
I didn't plan to come on your episode and quote Gandhi, but he does have a really good quote.
He says, There's enough for everybody's need, but not for everybody's greed.
And the reality is that there actually is enough resources in the world for all people, even if you multiply lots of people.
Last I checked, it was something like three Americans own 50% of wealth in America.
You just think about that.
You think about this.
Of the top 100, it's been a while since I looked this up, it'll be give or take, but of the top 100 top GDPs in the world, if you include corporations, And not just nations on that list.
Something like only 20 something, 27 of them are actual nations.
The rest are corporations.
These corporations have massive amounts of wealth.
They could totally do lots of philanthropy.
I'm not like anti rich people or anything like that.
What I am saying is if people shared the morals of Christ, then the poor would be taken care of and the overpopulation wouldn't be such an issue or wouldn't even become an issue.
So I would say, hey, What if the issue wasn't, or what if the solution was not let's kill and prevent life?
What if the solution was let's not be greedy punks, right?
Like let's actually give to the poor as a way of life.
Now, can I convince?
And let's also, I would add to that, let's not be lazy punks and rely on the welfare state and not work.
For sure.
Both sides.
Then we'd have a lot less poor people.
Yes, absolutely.
Go ahead.
That's the capitalist in me.
I had to say something there.
Yeah, no.
You're starting to sound a little socialist, so I just had to push back.
Hey, I told you, I'm not anti rich people.
I've been listening to too much Thomas Sowell lately.
Yeah, I'm not anti rich people.
I am pro generosity because that's a value of God.
And so I have a problem.
And when it's not legislated, it can actually be generosity.
It's not a problem.
I have a problem when the elites of the world.
Who are mega wealthy billionaires and millionaires are telling everybody else, you guys need to stop having kids.
And here's a bunch of RU486 pills, and here's how you can more quickly get rid of your babies.
Because you know what?
If you're really that concerned with the problems caused by overpopulation, why don't you try generosity?
It's a wonderful thing.
So I would say that when it's all said and done, overpopulation is not the problem people make it out to be.
I'm not saying it's not an issue at all, ever.
What I'm saying is if people practice the values of the kingdom of heaven, Generosity, number one.
And number two, I still think even if worst case scenario happened, it's better to live and die than to never live at all.
And so I think those are some good points.
And I would, from my perspective, I would say that I actually would say that it's not an issue ever.
And in part, from my point of view, I would say that, but I agree with a lot of the points that you were making.
But I would say I don't think Christ will let it be an issue.
So, regardless of your eschatology and whether you're pre mill or, you know, all mill or post mill, I really don't think if this is something that God's called us to, I have a hard time believing that God, who is a father, a good father, giving commandments to his spiritual children, I have a hard time believing that God would give commandments to his children and then maniacally be kind of like waiting and laughing under his breath, you know, knowing that if they obey, the final result will be their doom.
I just don't think God works that way.
Yeah, his commandments are not burdensome.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So I think like whatever God has called us to do, it doesn't just.
What God has commanded people to do, when we obey, it doesn't only lend towards his glory, but it also lends towards our good.
And so I have to believe that if it even were possible to overpopulate the earth, and I think logically I'd have to say, well, I guess it, you know, I guess like, you know, 100 trillion people, like, I mean, physically the earth is a finite place.
But I would say even if it was possible, I have to believe that Christ would come back before then.
And, or I should say, or, dude, Elon Musk, we're called to steer the cosmos.
That's what I was about to say.
I was going to say, Elon Musk is going to help us get to the moon.
Amen.
That's an image bear right there.
That is an image bear working on every.
I mean, he's got every piston of common grace firing.
Speaking of cultural mandate, though, Psalm 8, which was based upon the cultural mandate and repeats it, which is also quoted in Hebrews 2 about Jesus.
But anyway, one of the things that it says is we will rule over the works of his hands.
Which, in context, he has been actually talking about the cosmos.
So that's fascinating.
I've wondered sometimes if, in the new heavens and new earth, if expanding out into the cosmos might be part of that.
Totally.
I could probably see that.
Perhaps before then.
If overpopulation is really going to be that great of a problem.
Right.
And it's like we get practice on earth, it's like you get practice, like you start with a garden.
God gets you off to the right start.
This is a garden.
And here over here is a desert.
And to make that look like this is going to be a lot of work.
And you're going to have to figure that out.
And it's going to take you some time.
And I don't know, maybe it's just 10,000 years or so, give or take, of practice going from garden to desert.
And then it's just a jump from Earth to Mars.
Now we're just subduing that whole planet that happens to be a desert without water.
And it's fun things to think about.
But I just wanted to say that.
I guess we'll go quick on the end.
But I think it's really helpful that we spent time building a framework, just saying, first and foremost, children are blessings.
They're also weapons, you know, they're arrows.
And that's one of the ways that we push back.
You know, our battle is not with flesh and blood, but with principalities.
And one of the ways that we wage spiritual warfare is by enlisting people in the Lord's army.
And we do that through conversion.
We do that through discipleship.
But the Great Commission and the cultural mandate, as far as I can tell, the best disciples, Lord willing, that I'll ever make are going to be my kids.
And, you know, and so I'm discipling the nations.
But to disciple the nations, you can't disciple the nations if you can't disciple your house.
And those are some good disciples to make.
So you're doing both.
It's not one at the expense of the other, replacing the other.
and we're subduing, and that's a loving dominion that harnesses the earth.
It doesn't destroy the earth or just consume it.
Lowercase C, creators, people, because they're made in the image of God.
We multiply, we create, we don't just consume, we're not just leeches, and that's not just Christians, but even unbelievers, because that's a common grace, imago day kind of thing.
So all that framework, we want kids, they're a blessing, we need to be careful when or even if we ever seek to mitigate the blessings of God.
What other blessings do we do that with?
And then children are not just blessings.
But they're also weapons.
They're warfare.
And I love like the end of Psalm 127, verse six, where it says, you know, that he shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.
I see that.
I know Doug Wilson says this.
That's this man, his little sons that were once toddlers, little twinkling toes running around the halls of his home.
But now they're all grown up and they're fighting alongside their father.
He's not put to shame when he goes against his opponents in the city gates or when he's protecting that he has his sons, his grown sons.
Sons now, those arrows that he was sharpening and molding for 20 years, and now they're standing with him.
So there's like a beauty to it.
I look at that too, because it says he'll speak with his enemies when he speaks to his enemies at the city gate.
I look at that as a surrender, like the man and his sons caused the enemy to want to surrender.
So he has to come and meet them at the gate.
Christian Views on Birth Control00:13:04
I like that.
That's awesome.
That's really good.
Cool.
So, anyway, so that's kind of our framework.
I just wanted to kind of summarize and recap it.
But just giving, firing off now, you know, for the sake of time, trying to give some of the specifics.
So I'll just get right at it.
What forms of birth control should be considered unethical?
They're just off limits for Christians.
Really for all people, but Christians should obey.
Yeah, obviously, abortion.
Some people do view that as birth control.
RU486, which is the morning after pill, that's clearly wrong.
And because we believe, you know, a fetus is not just a fetus, it's a baby and made in the image of God.
And so there are some, there's a couple that I think need to be talked about.
And I don't think most Christians do.
When you talk about the pill and you talk about the IUD, do a little Google research.
I encourage you guys to do a little bit of Google research on this.
And what you'll discover is that most people will say, Everyone, maybe.
Okay, so it's actually debated amongst Christians, like Protestant Christians, whether those are okay.
But in my opinion, the ones who debate it, who debate against it, just really haven't fully done their research because the IUD and the pill both can result in abortions.
Now, it might not be intentional.
It might not be intentional.
But again, I said, Do your research, Google it.
Does this ever abort?
Now, the thing is, it aborts differently.
It aborts like before it's ever implanted in the uterus.
And so it aborts differently.
And so sometimes it kind of passes under the radar for Christians, I think.
And I think Christians will innocently get an IUD or they'll innocently take the pill.
Now, the pill has other issues too, and it affects hormones.
And so, for instance, I'm thinking of a Christian couple in my church that they were on the pill and they were telling me about it afterward.
They were saying, We got on the pill and then we got off.
And the reason we got off is because now they didn't know anything about the abortion side of things.
But they were talking about the effect that it had upon her.
She's getting pounding headaches and all of these different things, like she was just having these emotional swings.
It does affect you hormonally.
That's something to consider.
Now, anyway, so I would just say Google it, do your research.
I wouldn't feel comfortable getting either of those.
It sounded like that's where you stand too, Jewel.
Yeah, absolutely.
Great job.
That's what I would have said.
And to flesh it out a little bit more, because I remember at my previous church in San Diego, I remember with my elders, I don't know, maybe five years ago.
I don't know.
But we were working through this issue, and we disagreed in terms of whether or not we should actually put it in our membership covenant for formal membership in the church in terms of specifically the pill.
But we came to the same conclusions fairly quickly because you're right, all it takes is a little bit of research.
And there were people I noticed, you know, just pastorally as I dealt with congregants, there were occasionally times where people, part of the reason they had no clue wasn't just because they were ignorant, but part of the reason they didn't Google it, they didn't search, is because they actually did ask.
They asked their doctor, and their doctor assured them that it was not abortive because, come to find out, a lot of the scientific community has changed the definition of when human life begins in the womb.
So they've changed it from what we would hold and what we would say that Christendom has held for a very long time in terms of fertilization, it's been changed to implantation.
And so a doctor with a straight face will sit there and say, No, it's not abortive.
No way.
Yeah, that's actually, if you look.
You know what I mean?
Go ahead.
Yeah, if you.
I'm just saying, so you have to clarify with that.
That's exactly right.
And that's what's happening.
That's what's happening.
So good Christian couples are getting IUDs or they're taking the pill for that very reason.
My doctor said, It's not abortive.
Okay.
Well, um, That's the key.
What's the word again?
Starts with an I, M, I, I. Implantation versus fertilization.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, yeah.
So they don't.
If you look up the Hobby Lobby case where Hobby Lobby went all the way to the Supreme Court over Obamacare and all of this, like what Hobby Lobby was calling an abortion, and the Atlantic wrote an article about this some time ago, I remember.
But anyway, what Hobby Lobby is calling an abortion is they're saying, hey, if it's fertilized and And it kills that fertilized egg, that is an abortion.
And so there was a debate over that.
And so, as Christians, we would say, yes, the fertilization of the egg, that is when life begins.
So, as a pastor, I would recommend people don't get an IUD.
I would recommend people don't do the pill.
There are other forms of birth control, there are condoms, there are, of course, and There's natural family planning, and they can, they're getting pretty sophisticated with that now.
Abstinence.
There's.
With natural planning, yeah.
Strongly.
Well, I'm just saying you just.
Strongly abstaining.
Abstaining in marriage, you're waiting for a second.
Yeah.
But even in marriage, like, you know, Paul talks about, like, you could abstain.
Abstain.
He uses the word abstain for a season to devote yourselves to prayer.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think that's, those are reasonable.
So I would just say for the everyday married couple, probably my pastoral recommendation would be a condom.
I know there's, in some ways, maybe not preferable, but.
It's also not preferable to kill babies.
And so that's right.
And so that's why.
And you don't have to, you know, just we're not trying to be frank or crude, but just to be helpful and to be clear, the way that a woman's anatomy works, you don't have to wear a condom as a husband every time that you make love to your wife.
There's only certain times where, you know, if you're in that time you're trying to wait, you would need to wear a condom when she's ovulating, you know.
And so you might do a condom.
Now you might say, well, man, you're getting kind of risky.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Right.
So you're suggesting maybe a combination of natural family planning with condom during fertile days?
Yeah.
Is that kind of what you're saying?
Yeah.
And then, yeah, well, I'm saying condom.
I'm saying even like get the family planning out of there.
Just condom during fertile days and then have at it, you know, the rest of the time.
Now, I mean, just, you know, that's, I think, between the husband and the wife.
And I think that some of these things are worth bringing a pastor in.
I think that can be done appropriately where godly counsel can be given and where you're not being crude and you're not being, um, Inappropriate.
But even with that, I think there needs to be a carefulness.
Like, what are your motives?
What are you trying to do?
Is it just because we just really wanted to go on that vacation?
Or we just really, you know, there's serious questions to ask.
But real quick, I just did want to comment on the hormonal birth control pill, just so because some people may not understand exactly how it works.
And in a nutshell, from what I've been able to, you know, doing my research as a pastor so that I could counsel people in the church, I, you know, there's three main.
Measures of stopping pregnancy or having a woman not get pregnant, two of them are preventative, but the last one is abortive.
And so one is the thickening of the cervical fluid to where the sperm just can't, unlikely that they're going to make it through.
It's too thick, they can't swim.
The second is stopping the ovulation process.
So even if the sperm make it through the thickened cervical fluid, there's not an egg at the end of the journey for them to fertilize.
And then the third is a thinning.
And this is the one that matters.
It's the thinning of the uterine lining.
And that's the one that would not be preventative, but that would be abortive if we believe that life begins at fertilization.
And so that would mean that if a sperm could make it to the egg and did fertilize the egg, the egg would have nowhere to go.
It would not have a hospitable environment, habitat.
And so it wouldn't be able to attach to the lining of the uterine wall and it would fall off.
And here's one of the tragic things.
Again, I think a lot of Christians just don't know.
They're not educated.
Their doctors, sure as heck, aren't helping them because they have a worldview that's antithetical to the Christian worldview.
Not all doctors.
There could be a Christian doctor, but many doctors.
And so one of the side effects, long lasting effects, is Christians get off of the pill.
Christian women get off of the pill and they want to get pregnant and they want to have a baby, or maybe they just come to the conviction we're not going to use the pill anymore.
But what is possible, not in all cases, but what is possible is that the cervical fluid, One of the effects was its thickening from the pill.
Well, that effect will drop off quickly when you go off the pill.
ovulation, that you could go back to an ovulation, healthy ovulation cycle quickly when you go off the pill.
But there's been research done that the uterine wall, the lining, may not thicken for several months, even in some cases a year or two.
And so a husband and wife go off the pill, let's say they're Christians, and they don't know this.
And so now they're trying to get pregnant.
And unbeknownst to them, the The sperm is getting through.
She's ovulating.
The egg is in place.
It's being fertilized, and they have no clue, but it's her uterine lining.
The egg has nowhere to go.
Dead.
Dead.
And that could happen every month for months.
They could inadvertently, and I know this is strong language, but I want people to feel the weight of it.
So I want to be sympathetic to the ignorance, but they could inadvertently kill six children.
Now, that's a real scenario.
And if we think in biblical terms of what a child, you know, That is the, I think, the accurate language that a Christian couple could inadvertently, emphasis on that, inadvertently kill six of their own children.
And so it is, it's a really, it's a big deal.
It's a really big deal.
And I think it's so foreign to so many Christians who are like, what?
You guys think that the birth control pill, like, you guys are so conservative, you know?
And it's like, no, I mean, it's a pretty easy argument to make, really.
Absolutely.
Were you going to say something?
Oh, well, there's a couple of more points to hit on.
I know we're trying to go fast here.
We're trying to stay up.
One is permanent birth control, such as a vasectomy or a woman getting the tubes tied.
Which would be preventative.
Yeah.
Auto abortive.
Those would be preventative.
So I think where I would stand on that, I think there could be situations like a health of the mother, health of the father, I guess, well, father.
I don't know how much that's an issue.
But.
Health of the mother, particularly.
I could see an issue there.
I could also see, I don't know, I would be open to this.
Like, someone's having a baby at 39 or 40, and it's kind of like getting up there in years, and maybe they have a C section.
A doctor's like, Do you want us to tie the tubes now?
I could see the woman maybe saying yes, because, like, do I want to have a baby at 41, 42?
These are risky pregnancies.
Yeah.
You know, I could see those scenarios.
I could see that.
Yeah.
And, And so, but I think I would just say, I'd just be real careful with it.
Like the idea of like being 34 years old and getting a vasectomy because you have your two kids, I would be against that.
But really, all of this just comes back to motive, you know?
I won't say all of it.
So some of it comes back to am I killing a baby or not?
Once we get past that into like maybe potentially permissible territory, it's what is my motive?
Is it to protect the health of the mother?
Is it to go on more Caribbean vacations?
You know, like what's my real motive there?
Is it because children are hard and I don't want more children?
I, you know, so much comes back to motive.
The Danger of Quiverful Extremes00:02:11
I think the other thing I would say now, my view toward church history is that church history, okay, so the Bible is my authority, sola scriptura, right?
But I would say that church history provides a guardrail, right?
Like, so, If somebody believed what the church has believed for 2,000 years, I'm, as their pastor, I'm going to feel comfortable, like, oh, okay, good.
You believe what the church believes.
It's when we get outside of what the church has historically believed.
Hey, I got a new doctrine I just, you know, God revealed to me.
Like, no.
Right.
Right.
So, church history is important in that regard, even if it is, you know, below scripture in authority.
And what I would say on that is that throughout church history, the church has actually been against birth control, including the reformers, our beloved John Calvin.
That's right.
Yep, that's right.
And, you know, name a reformer.
Again, it's been some time, but I've read just tons and tons of church history on this.
I don't think I ever found anyone that was okay with it.
So, like, there actually is a reason that the Roman Catholic Church holds the position that they do.
Yep.
It grew out of that.
And so, I have sympathy toward that position.
You know, like the Duckers, you know, 19 and counting.
What is it, 22 and counting?
I don't even know what it's at now.
I think the danger, like, as somebody who comes out of the quiverful movement, is if they try to put that on everyone and say everybody needs to have 22 kids or they're sinning, right?
Like, that's a problem, I think.
But, um, But if somebody just decides to have a whole bunch of kids on their own, I ain't got no problem with it.
I think that's good.
Yeah, it's not.
And I would actually argue that in many ways, it seems to be the easier position to defend.
Yeah, I would agree.
I would agree.
It seems to be the easy.
So I think you have to be careful if you're of the quiverful mentality, which, just for the record, I think you and I would both say that we're of the quiver.
Letting the Lord Determine Numbers00:03:45
We believe Psalm 127.
Right.
So, like, what are we going to say?
We're not like, yeah, like, we're inerrantists and we, you know, solo scriptura, but Psalm 127, you know, we just opt out of that.
Like, so I want to have a full quiver.
I think what we're quibbling over with the quiver, the quiver quibble is, you know, is, is, I don't know, how, how, how, what is a full quiver?
You know, like, eight, eight might, you know, that sounds like a pretty full quiver, you know, and then somebody else is 22 or nothing, you know, and like, you know, and so now now, to be fair to the guys who would hold to like onanism being a sin, you know, and the quiverful mentality um, I think what they would say is like well, you don't have to determine a number.
I know they would say this.
They would say, you don't have to determine a number, Joel.
Um, you let God determine the number and you just, you just love your wife, do that?
I mean that, and so I don't know just, that's defensible yeah, yeah.
So how do you know what what?
You know what?
What's the counter?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think it's tough.
I mean, it's an easy position to defend.
So it is.
It is.
But okay, if I was to try to like maybe defend our more moderating position.
So, like, okay, giving is a blessing, right?
Giving financially.
Would you agree with that?
It's more blessed to give than receive.
Does that mean that in every single scenario, if you want the most blessed life, you will literally give away every penny that you have?
Because it's more blessed?
See, okay, so just, you know, just for fun, I'll play that.
So that's a good one.
So what I would say is yes.
I think every Christian, and not just every Christian, here's the irony.
I would say every single human being, by necessity, does give away every penny they have through death.
And the question is, the only reason that we wait to give our pennies now is so that we can give more pennies later.
So I am going to give every penny I have, and so are you, whether you like it or not.
to something or someone.
I would like to give them to my children and grandchildren and to the church of Christ.
So I want to give it to the church and, but first and foremost, my children and children's children.
A wise man, a good man, leaves inheritance for his children's children.
And the only reason, like the prodigal son, that I don't want to give the reprobate son his portion of the inheritance today is because I want to give him more later.
And I'd like him to be a little older and a little bit more mature and able to steward it better.
But just, you know, so I would say, yeah, we do want to give every penny.
And the only reason we don't give them all today is because we want to be able to give more pennies later.
I don't know.
Okay.
What do you think?
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
Where I was going with it was.
If it is always more blessed to give than to receive, then there's a feasible scenario.
Well, yeah, I don't know.
That's a pretty decent response, Joel.
I don't know what I was thinking.
It just came to me because, again, I've been reading a decent amount of Thomas Sowell lately.
So economics has been on the brain.
But I know your general point.
I know what you're making.
And just saying that, like, yeah, I think it's what I was saying earlier in terms of just.
Is there something to be said for timing?
Is there something to be said for, okay, like I'm waiting now?
Because even economically, you know, it may be that, like, all right, like I'm not going to make this economic choice today because I want to make this choice later on tomorrow.
And I think, and I'll have more if I'm willing to wait.
Waiting to Expand Your Family00:07:02
And so I think it could be possible that, you know, a young couple where, you know, let's say the husband, you know, they want to be in ministry, the husband's still in seminary, the wife is having to work at that point.
And they're like, man, you know what?
Our first.
Our first three, four years of marriage, we're going to wait.
And we're not going to use anything that would even risk the opportunity of being aborted by nature in terms of birth control.
But our intention is to, you know, God can do anything and we trust him, you know.
But our intention as far as man making his plans, our plan is to wait for the next four years while, you know, our husband, you know, tries, my husband tries to finish seminary.
And, you know, like, I think that that, like, I would see that as a reason, you know, and I think a couple like that could, you know, they could get married, for instance, they could get married at 21, 22, start having kids at 25, and maybe not Duggar level 22 kids, but they could have 10 kids, you know, if the Lord wills.
Like it's within the, you know what I mean?
So I think that, yeah, and I would look at that and say, I don't know if I really have, yeah.
Yeah, I think for me, just being a pastor of a church, I try to teach, The basic biblical principles, and I'll give my best hunch on how that plays out in the nitty gritty of life.
But I do try to avoid controlling people in the nitty gritty of life where it's not crystal clear in the scripture.
I don't think the scripture is crystal clear that everyone needs to have 22 kids or their sons.
I agree.
I think that the wisdom of Proverbs and planning and what that looks like, you know, and Even loving one's neighbor, health of the mother kind of deal.
I think there are certain mitigating scenarios that maybe common sense would speak into that I think we should allow for.
But as a general rule, I would encourage people to have lots of kids.
The other thing I want to say, and maybe as a more final note, is I know some of your viewing audience might be older, might be like, hey, I've already had my one kid, I've already had my two kids, and I can't go back and have a whole bunch of kids.
But I can see I had a worldly lifestyle back then, or a worldly view.
Maybe I even love Jesus, but I was just, you know, I kind of was looking at this from a world's perspective, but now I feel convicted by it.
Well, to you, I would say go to Jesus, tell him you're sorry, and then the Great Commission still applies to you.
Go and make disciples of all nations.
You can still do that.
And that's part of the beauty of the clarity that Jesus brought us when he became cosmic king and Lord after the resurrection and ascension, and all authority was given to him in heaven on earth, and he commissioned us to make disciples.
It brought a clarity that, hey, this is an ongoing thing.
It's not just when your kids are toddling around.
This is like your whole life.
You are a disciple maker.
So go to Jesus, get your forgiveness if you were doing it for worldly reasons.
I'm not saying.
Right, right.
And actually, on that note, I need to say another thing.
And that is we as Christians don't need to go around judging everybody who has a small household.
Some people can't have kids, some people could only have one, some could only have two.
Some didn't find Jesus until later.
You know, there's just so many scenarios.
That's just not the kind of thing we need to go around judging people for.
Yep.
I agree.
I agree.
It's just, again, it goes back to that perspicuity of scripture.
We believe the scripture speaks to all life and doctrine.
Having children is certainly something the scripture speaks to.
But the scripture doesn't speak to every single arena of life with the same measure of clarity.
And what we're talking about is, I mean, you're not even just talking about children.
The Bible speaks volumes to parenting and children, the blessing of children.
But we're talking about a specific sub point under that topic of children how many?
You know, and, and, and, um, yeah, it's just, you know, again, I think like it's, it's a, it is, you know, the argument of like how many, let the Lord decide.
Um, I get that.
I really do get that.
And, uh, and I, I think that that is a fine position to take.
And it may be the more biblical position.
And it's certainly, as you said earlier, Seems to be the witness of church history and my favorite portion of church history, the reformer.
So, not a bad stance to take.
But I do agree with you in terms of how we engage in that conversation with others.
Because even though I think that may be the most defensible position to take and perhaps the most biblically faithful position to take, I think it's still different than salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the best position to take, it's the only position to take.
But it's also really clear.
It's really clear.
It's the crux of the whole scripture.
So when someone says, well, I think we're saved by grace plus sacraments, or we're saved through faith plus works, and in Christ plus saints, and to the glory of God plus the glory of the Pope, and his tradition and scripture.
And we say, dude, you missed it.
And I would have no problem.
Obviously, I just described Catholicism, but I would have no problem talking to, well, I think there are a lot of regenerate Catholics because I think there are a lot of bad Catholics.
Um, but to good Catholics, you know, because if you're a good Catholic, then I think you're in danger, um, because you're actually prescribing to Catholic doctrine.
I think lots of people come to Christ despite Catholic doctrine, but not because of it.
And so, if you got a good Catholic, that's you know, I would push back on that good Catholic and say, dude, the Bible's clear.
And I and I and I would I would be pretty aggressive, whereas I would not, you know, go to that couple in a church that has two kids and say, dude, clear as day, you're in sin.
You know what I mean?
It's just not, yeah, it's not the same.
And I think.
Yeah, but it's important to have these conversations, though, because I think for you and me, the biggest thing is worldview.
Worldview, values.
Do I value what God values?
If I do and I'm married, I'm going to want to have a lot of kids.
And if I don't feel that value in my heart, I should repent, turn to Jesus, and ask him to make my heart feel about things the way he does.
Amen.
I think that's great.
So let's go ahead and close.
For all of our listeners who are tuning in, viewers, you know the drill.
What we do at the end of each of our episodes of Theology Applied is we ask our guests to stay on for an additional five, 10 minutes.
Me and Michael go way back.
As you probably tell in this episode, we have some differences because I was a part of your church 15 years ago, and we've gone different directions in some regard.
Bonus Question and Closing Thoughts00:03:38
But Michael, still to this day, I have to say, Michael can quote scripture better than just about anyone that I at least personally know.
He loves the Bible.
He remembers a time when I used to love the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
Now I just love the Bible.
That's what he would want to say and pick on me with a gift because I'm a cessationist now.
But Michael loves the Bible.
I love the Bible.
We both love the Holy Spirit.
We have a different view on the gifts.
But he loves the scripture.
He's a godly man.
And although we disagree on a few things, we go way back.
And because we go way back, we tend to have longer conversations.
So I know this episode is a little bit long.
And we typically go five, 10 minutes on the bonus edition.
But if you tune in, if you're one of our responders, one of our club members, all the bonus materials are available for you.
And I encourage you to do that if you haven't done it already.
And if you do it, I say it's five or 10 minutes, but who knows?
You might be in for a half hour.
So we'll.
We'll see.
So, anyways, here's our bonus question.
Just to whet your appetite, a little incentive here.
How would you defend?
We've already been dancing around and addressing it to some extent, but how would you defend the withdrawal method?
Right?
So, absence of condom could be that, or withdrawal.
How would you defend that method andor the use of condoms in light of God killing Onan in Genesis chapter 38, verse 6 through 11?
So, that's our bonus question.
We're going to let don't answer it.
We're going to come back on.
So, that's our bonus question.
We're going to end the episode.
Michael, you get the last word.
Tell people how they can follow you, what they should know, how they can keep up.
Okay, sure.
Well, you can find me on my church website, Wellspring.
Actually, website, who cares?
Just go to my YouTube page.
You can listen to my sermons, my preaching there.
So go into YouTube, Wellspring, just search Wellspring Church, DFW.
That stands for Dallas Fort Worth.
Another way is that you can, actually, another way you can.
Engage with me would be through my YouTube channel called Remnant Radio or The Remnant Radio.
And you can see that's more of like an interview format, kind of like this, but pastors and theologians from all over the world and all across denominations.
So next week we have, oh, you'll like this, Joel.
We have Dr. Tom Schreiner coming on the show to talk cessationism.
Oh, nice.
My co host and I are continuationists.
But that's the kind of show that we are.
We have people come on that.
Sometimes we vehemently disagree with, and sometimes that we agree with too.
So, anyway, so check out the Remnant Radio, check out Wellspring Church DFW.
I've been on a writing leave for five weeks, so you'll have to go back a little bit to hear any of my preaching.
But anyway, I'll be on for the next number of weeks before I get a break.
So, anyway, you can check it out that way.
Or you can follow me.
I have like 17 Twitter followers because I don't tweet enough, but entry81, you can look me up there.
I'd like to have 18 followers.
Nice.
Well, hopefully, we'll get you that 18th follower.
All right.
Thanks for coming on the show, Michael.
Appreciate it.
As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.
To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.comslash offer.
We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?
If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God, this would be a great resource.
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