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March 9, 2023 - Health Ranger - Mike Adams
48:26
EPA whistleblower Dr. David Lewis joins Mike Adams to discuss EPA cover-ups...
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All right, for today's featured interview, we have EPA whistleblower, author, and scientist Dr.
David Lewis, and he's the author of this extraordinary book, Science for Sale, and this book is available at booksellers everywhere.
He's working on a second book that he's going to tell us about, or the next book.
Dr.
David Lewis is the scientist who opened my eyes to the issue of bio-sludge Years ago, and then he flew to Texas and we filmed Dr.
Lewis.
He was featured prominently in the film that I produced called Biosludged, which you can watch for free.
It's at biosludged.com.
And he joins us today to cover what's going on with the EPA in Ohio and elsewhere.
So thank you for joining me for today's interview, Dr.
David Lewis.
It's an honor to have you on, sir.
It's an honor to have this opportunity with you.
Thank you.
Well, no, all the credit goes to you.
Not everybody knows what you've done for America.
You were the one who tried to sound the alarm on the pollution of our soils with bio-sludge.
You ran a science lab with the EPA. For those who are new to your story, give us a little bit of background of your experience as a scientist with the EPA. Sure.
I have actually wanted to be a scientist since I was five years old.
My father was a Navy pilot and I just developed an interest in science mainly from him encouraging me in that direction once I showed an inclination for it.
And my love for science has not waned in all these years.
I'm 74 years old now and yet During that time span, I've seen science, as I knew it, pretty much fall to pieces to become politically driven, to have other agendas beyond just understanding what's going on in water pollution,
air pollution, and what I ended up focusing on, which was soil pollution, which becomes a source of most, if not, or much, if not most, of air pollution and water pollution.
Going through the soil.
Well, exactly.
You really opened my eyes to this, and a lot of people, I don't know how many millions have watched the Biosludge documentary or read your book, but it's a lot of people worldwide, so you've had a major impact there.
But tell us about, and you talk about this in your book, Science for Sale, the EPA forced you out.
Didn't they cut the funding for your lab when you started to raise the alarm on this and say, wait a minute, why are we polluting all our soils?
Yes, my case along these lines, my experience at DPA, developed during my early years on the graduate faculty at the University of Georgia, where what was going on was exactly what President Eisenhower commented on on his way out of the White House when he retired,
and he mentioned that Science had become corrupted within academia, and what I saw was that that was only the beginning, that now that we're having problems with Russia and its allies and China and others,
get their hands, their fingers in the pie, so to speak, to manipulate what is Published as environmental information is not that in fact.
More and more cases turn out to be propaganda.
Yeah, that's a trend that we've all witnessed over the last few years, whether we're talking medicine, biology, climate science, EPA now.
And I think COVID obviously got a lot of people asking big questions and a lot of things are coming out now where we know we were lied to about many things.
But back to the EPA, the thing that's on people's minds right now is this train crash That happened about a month ago in East Ohio and that train was carrying, as you know, many cars of toxic vinyl chloride monomer to make PVC and the first responders,
for whatever reason, after the train derailed, they drained all the vinyl chloride out of the train cars, the tankers, and then they set it on fire.
And when they set it on fire, it released this massive, huge black plume into the sky that just spread for, you know, thousands of square miles, covering tens of thousands of farms.
And I've had experts on talking about, you know, dioxins.
Here's the dioxin molecule, you know, chlorine-heavy molecule falling out.
You're familiar with this.
Yeah, I know you are.
This falling out, 2378 TCDD is this particular dioxin, and the EPA refusing to test for it.
So I wanted to ask you, Dr.
Lewis, when the EPA is asked about why aren't you testing for dioxins, The answer that they're giving publicly right now is, well, we can't test for dioxins because we don't have a baseline of what the levels were before this accident.
That's their excuse.
What do you say to that?
Well, obviously, they can test for it, whether there's a standard for it or not.
It doesn't make sense to use that to explain why you don't want to generate the data What's going on here?
Well, yeah, and especially if there are no additional dioxins happening, then if they test for it now, they would find that it's still low.
Why wouldn't they want to test for it now and say, yeah, it's still low?
Absolutely.
Something fishy is going on.
But this seems to be kind of the way they've operated for a long time.
For example, on the issue that you focus on, biosludge, Tell us about sort of how the cover-ups worked, or what were they unwilling to look at?
As you were trying to raise the alarm, what were they unwilling to look at?
Well, in what I observed over decades of working for EPA on just these issues, I focused on chemicals that are chlorinated, that get multiplied up the food chain, that are very stable in the environment.
We're not going to biodegrade.
That was my focus.
And so when I looked into what was going on in my situation, all the way up to Washington, to Carol Browner, who was the EPA administrator during most of the time I was doing my research.
And she was very supportive of it and actually awarded me with this EPA Science Achievement Award for my work in this area.
Which is EPA's highest award.
She took me aside at the award ceremony in Washington, D.C. to give me a plaque on that and strangely she walked off, signaled to me to meet me halfway across the stage away from the microphone.
I'm sorry, it's getting a little background noise.
Oh, no worries.
Anyway, when Carol Browner walked me off the stage away from the microphone, She looked at me and she just said, I just want you to know how important your work is in this area.
And I talked with one of her underlings, Jerry Melillo, who was in charge of these sort of issues for EPA at the time and was very interested in supporting my research.
And I said to Jerry, why is it that Carol Browner Wasn't doing anything to uncover the problem here, put an end to it.
And he said that all she would tell him was that she was being overruled at the highest levels.
Wow.
And so, you know, when you go over the head of a federal agency...
The EPA Administrator, for example, there's only one level over that, that's the President of the United States.
And shortly after that, Nature came out with an article about my research, and Science Magazine did as well, but Nature pointed it out, or described it as a failure of five presidential administrations.
Something's going on here that is Has captured the attention of our federal government from top to bottom.
So it just gives you a hint of how big this issue is, how important it is to industry.
Yeah, you've really hit upon something critical there.
It appears to have driven the response to the train disaster in East Ohio.
And it was the railroad in this case, Norfolk Southern.
And lawsuits have already been filed against Norfolk Southern and the EPA and the government of Ohio because it seems like they set all these chemicals on fire in order to eliminate them as quickly as possible so they could resume operating the trains carrying the chemicals on the tracks.
So instead of doing the correct thing, which would be to contain the spill and then transfer the chemicals to special hazardous materials trucks that could take it to incinerators, very high-temperature incinerators that would destroy the molecules, instead they set it on fire in a ditch, which created a low-temperature fire that actually created more toxic compounds, such as dioxins, as you well know.
And it seems to have all been done in the name of industry while polluting tens of thousands of farms, small American farmers and Amish farmers as well.
It's like decision after decision.
It hurts the people, but it protects industry.
And from what you just said, Dr.
Lewis, it seems like that's the way the EPA has been operating for quite some time.
Your thoughts on that?
Well, the interesting part of all of this to me Is that my life's work was spent looking at these same compounds, dioxins, you know, halogenated compounds.
These are the compounds that cause birth defects, that cause cancer.
These are big issues.
And so if you have a train spill that is just loaded with those kind of chemicals, I guess if I was a corporate executive and my world rested on being able to get by with spills like that and it's no big deal, not a public danger, I could see where some executives would want to be tempted to go that way.
Anything like this trail derailment that occurred with a fire stands a reasonable chance that Somebody in the federal government, EPA or otherwise, Department of Agriculture, is likely to start digging into, well, how big of a problem is this?
What do we do when this happens?
How do we clean it up?
And what they will uncover is the fact that all of these chlorinated organic compounds, they're extremely persistent.
They're going to be around for years.
Eons of time to come, particularly in complex mixtures, and it's a hornet's nest that you start to disturb it and look into it, there's no limit to where it could go.
It would potentially uncover all sorts of federal crimes that go back for decades and decades.
So it seems like they need to keep this quiet in order to maintain the status quo, to protect industry.
But then the people pay the price.
And as you know, dioxins in particular, they cause a lot of DNA damage and they lead to accelerated cancers and, as you said, birth defects and children being born with asymmetric faces or missing limbs in some cases, right?
That's happened before.
Yes, that's right.
There was a report that one person in East Ohio now is exhibiting symptoms of chloracne.
And you know about chloracne.
Tell us about it.
What does this mean about what may be coming from these exposures?
For someone to develop chloracne, visible sores on their face, their arms, wherever they've come into contact with this material, is going to stand a good chance of raising this massive secret That's been carried on at the highest levels of our federal government back to when I was working closely with Carol Browner.
She, for example, was asked by Jerry Melillo, who was in charge of climate change at the time, at the president's, to report to the president, and he and I worked closely together, and We found that, you know, this was a problem that was going to reach far and wide and end up eventually polluting the air, the water and the soil.
If you look at this problem as it reaches a global state, then you really begin to understand what's at stake.
If you go to any farm in the United States, And I live around plenty of them around here and test the soils.
You're going to find all these same chemicals that spilled out of that train on that train track and caught fire.
You're going to find them in Seoul all over the place.
Oh, yeah.
That's the thing.
They're persistent.
Actually, you know the terminology, but let me just explain this to the audience.
The EPA calls them PBTs, persistent bioaccumulative toxins.
And they persist for centuries, and they bioaccumulate up the food chain, so they tend to aggregate, especially in animal products over time, and they're extremely toxic.
Let me just...
Before you continue, Dr.
Lewis...
I want to read a quote about your work from Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
This is on the back cover of your book.
David Lewis, again, this is from Bobby Kennedy here.
David Lewis has been a beacon of integrity against the apocalyptic forces of ignorance and greed, endeavoring to divert science from the noble pursuit of truth and pervert it into a tool that supports the most destructive policies of industry and government.
That's, again, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Now, did you know, Dr.
Lewis, that Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
has publicly stated that he may be running for president?
I was not aware of that.
I wish he would.
He is looking at that.
He said his wife approves of it, so that's always the most important milestone to overcome.
Tell me.
Right.
So she approves, and I approve.
I think he should run for president.
I think he should beat Biden.
He should become the Democrat nominee, and maybe...
Bring in this whole discussion about real integrity in science into the debates.
Even if he doesn't win, he can be part of these debates.
But things are changing.
There are people speaking out like Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And so you influenced him.
And that's something I think that you deserve to be quite proud of, having influenced him and joined him in this effort.
Yes, he had a very strong and A very knowledgeable understanding of the big picture of all of this.
If we have developed a mechanism for collecting all of these kinds of chemicals that are chlorinated or they've got fluorine in the molecular structure that makes them non-biodegradable, just perpetually polluting our planet, And being focused on farmlands, that's where most of this material in high concentrations gets dumped and spread out.
In the course of time, what's in the soil blows up into the air and dust particles spreads around our jet streams to encircle the globe and fall out, have this fallout everywhere globally.
We're just setting up the whole planet to become It's...
Something that is mutagenic and...
Yes.
Just a toxic stew.
No.
Yeah.
That's the thing.
People don't realize this is building up.
It's been building up for the last, let's say, 150 years or less for certain chemicals.
Let's say it's from the 1950s and 60s for dioxins, roughly.
But as industry has expanded, the production of these chemicals has expanded.
None of these chemicals have gone away or very little have gone away.
They persist.
And so if humanity continues on this track for even another 50 years, what's the toxic load going to be at that time?
You can't just keep dumping all the pollution into the soils, into the rivers, into the oceans.
You can't just keep doing this forever.
Eventually, and maybe we're at that point now, eventually your species starts to die.
You start to become mutants.
Are we there?
Are we starting to see that in your view, Dr.
Lewis, or do we have a little more time?
What's your take?
I don't think we have enough surveillance to even scratch the surface of how big this problem is at the current time.
People think about levels of carcinogenic and mutagenic chemicals that It's required in order for someone to have a high probability of developing cancer or birth defects.
I don't look at it that way myself.
I look at it that this is a problem that's rooted in the cellular level.
All it takes for a human being to get cancer, colon cancer, lung cancer, skin cancer, whatever, Is for one single molecule of these chemicals like we're talking about now,
just any chemical that is environmentally stable and is highly carcinogenic or mutagenic, EPA regulates on a basis of whole body exposure.
That's the fundamental groundwork for EPA, the FDA, and others.
But that's not how the world works.
You have one cell in your brain or one cell in your skin that becomes cancerous.
It starts multiplying.
And in the course of time, you're staring at death in the face from cancer.
Yeah, exactly.
So by design, EPA and the FDA and others have modeled this problem in a way that totally deceives the public on how dangerous this is.
We've got to look at things at the one cell level.
If we have an environmental situation where we're putting something on the land and it's getting in the air and water that's carcinogenic, we've got to look at that from, you know, what is the probability that one cell is going to be exposed to this and start multiplying?
And so you might permeate somebody's body over time with something that started with just one cell.
A tiny part per billion sample of soil.
Well, that's the thing.
I've been reading about dioxins, and I find that even way below parts per billion, we're talking about picograms of exposure load, or in some cases, femtograms.
But I want to add this, Dr.
Lewis.
This is really critical.
Now, you're one of the few people, you have been to our laboratory.
Because we filmed you there.
Remember all the mass spec instruments we had there?
Yes.
Well, we've added to that substantially.
We're now running six mass spec instruments.
Terrific.
Yep.
We've got two ICP-MS instruments, and we've got triple quad mass spec, and then some other single quad LC-MS instruments.
And...
We're purchasing now a gas chromatography add-on to test for dioxins.
So within a few months, as soon as that interface is up and running, we will have a triple-quad tandem MS-MS mass spec with a GC interface, and it can give us a 10 to 1 signal-to-noise ratio Of 2378 TCDD, two femtograms injected as load on column.
Two femtograms, we get a signal.
That's how sensitive that instrument is.
And you, not everybody understands that, obviously, but you do.
So I'm happy to be able to share this news with you.
We're going to be testing for doxins.
Yeah, I'd love for you to keep me up to date on what's going on there.
What I am doing still, even though EPA, for those that are not familiar with the story, Henry Longest, who served in the top ranks of EPA through various administrations,
who targeted me, he above all people in EPA that wanted to get rid of me because of looking into these problems was just I'm obsessed with it, but the thing that became apparent of what I did,
and at my own expense, the CPA was not funding my research anymore, is to get out and take soil samples and have them analyzed, which I paid the University of Georgia to do for me, have them analyzed for yttrium and two or three other rare earths.
Really?
Yeah, because what I found in my research at EPA is that all biosolid samples contain a handful of rare earths that aren't found in nature.
So it's a good way for tracking how big this problem is.
Huh.
You're kidding me.
See, we can do that with ICP-MS. We'd be happy to help you out on that.
We ought to work together on that.
Absolutely.
We'd be happy to run those for you at no cost.
And you just need to tell us the elements that you're looking for.
And we can even do like a semi-quant mode that scans almost the entire table of elements, you know, except a very low range.
We can see what those are, get a snapshot.
But I'd like to know what other elements, because you're the one who told me that there was an over-the-counter medication that was always found in biosolids as well.
Benadryl.
Benadryl, yeah.
Antihistamine.
Yeah.
But we don't have a way to check for Benadryl.
We don't have a method for Benadryl, but we could look for yttrium or the other elements for sure.
Yeah, I actually did a Interesting experiment.
I don't have an office anymore at EPA or University of Georgia, but I had the results clear as can be that where I tracked yttrium, for example, I focused on an area in Georgia that I actually did science fair projects at when I was in high school and have still been going back occasionally to revisit some of the Things I got started there, I'd still check on.
But what I found was that there was an area where a very unusual plant was growing, and I started collaborating with Jimmy Carter on it.
I ran into him when he was inaugurated.
A girl I was dating at the time had been invited to his inaugural ball, and I took her to the ball and met him then.
We got to chat a little bit and he took a great interest in my research in this area and has kept up with it until recently and is so unfortunate about with cancer now.
But what I found in a field study is that plants had developed, native plants in that area, had developed a way to resist The impact of these biosolids that were being applied in many, many acres around these pristine creeks that I was studying back from high school days.
When I went out there sampling, what I found is that the area where these chemicals were getting disturbed in the soil and moving down into the creek and beyond, that you could track all of that and understand The ecology of it,
the big picture of it, this could be turned into an incredible environmental tool for understanding how much damage has been done to the environment for these biosolids-related chemicals.
Well, that's the question of our time.
I have a feeling we are way past the tipping point of being able to really reproduce as a species in a healthy, sustainable way.
I mean, there's so much mutagenic damage that is being done right now that will persist for generations.
I think we're in real trouble right now.
A lot of the human species is in real trouble.
And you sounded the alarm as early as anyone on this.
And now, as I understand it, you're working on another book to continue to tell this story.
Can you, without giving away too much, tell us about this second book, what you have coming, and when can we expect this book to hit the shelves?
Well, thank you for asking.
I am pretty consumed at the moment with writing a book that documents at least my own personal experiences It was something that developed a number of years ago within an administration or two back that took root where there is interest in the work that I began with Jimmy Carter to
look at the impact of areas where sewage sludge has been Spread and cows are dying and humans are claiming to be affected.
And this field site that I studied back in high school, I went back to and began sampling in the creek area where I had noticed that a plant that was very common back in my high school days in the 1960s had started to do a weird thing It was absolutely bizarre.
It's a common plant found in marshes that grows in the water during certain periods of time and out of the water.
And it began to do this total remake of the way the stems to the flowers of this plant Which had these yellow star grass, and that's what the plants call star grass, these yellow star grass blooms at the top of maybe a six or eight inch thin stem with some leaves in it.
The weird thing it was starting to do was to grow in a way that when that flower pod was forming, it would go underwater.
But only in these areas where the biosolids with all those toxic chemicals We're washing down into that part of the creek.
You go above that part of the creek that was not being polluted with these biosolids related chemicals, the universe of toxic chemicals, and the plants would be perfectly helpful, healthy, blooming and reproducing with seed pods.
So I've dug some of these up and in fact to this day I still go regularly Down to the creek on our own property where I reproduced that environment and transplanted some of these plants.
And to this day, they're still doing that.
Unfortunately, I don't have the resources that it would take to understand what's happening here.
All I have is just a glimpse of how amazingly important this is biologically.
If you can just imagine a plant that's getting hit by every pollutant you can imagine, has figured out a way to survive this, we should be really looking at this at the cellular level and figuring out ways we can transfer this ability to other plants.
While we still have plants on Earth.
Exactly.
Our very survival may depend on understanding what's going on there.
And yet, in order for any government funding to be directed towards that, they would first have to admit that there is pollution, right?
And they don't even want to admit that.
And so we end up with a government that is telling us that there's nothing to worry about.
It's all okay.
And, you know, we do have a Clean Water Act, but we don't have a Clean Soils Act.
You're the one who told me that years ago.
We don't have a Clean Soils Act, so they take all the pollution.
They can't dump it in the river, so they dump it in the dirt by the river.
And then the rain washes it into the river.
You know, we're building a toxic stew that is incompatible with the sustainability of human life, period.
Yeah.
Well, the one thing that I wish everyone could take home and internalize is the fact that cancer, which we worry about with these types of chemicals, for example, all it takes is for us to breathe one microscopic particle of biosolids,
treated sewage solids is what it is, just one molecule of that Going into our lungs as we breathe.
All it takes is one particle of biosolids to come to rest against one cell in a person's lungs.
And there it lodges.
It gets stuck there and rests until that one cell becomes mutated and after that becomes cancerous and you've got lung cancer.
So...
You have to look at the planet Earth in that way.
Yeah, and it's, you know, I'm a food scientist and nutrition focus, and what I understand too is that if a person has a healthy diet and healthy foods, they may be able to handle, you know, their body's immune system will deal with that one cancerous cell or even a thousand cancerous cells that are isolated.
But when a person is living on junk food and processed food and they're exposed, To all these toxic chemicals, and they're immunosuppressed from a variety of vectors, you know, environmental, dietary stress, lack of sleep, all these things, then their body can't handle it.
So at that point, the toxicity of the exposure gets amplified by their lack of self-healing capability.
And I think that's what we're looking at right now.
People are getting cancers like never before.
More people are dying than ever before.
We're seeing entire countries, like Japan, is having a demographic collapse.
The U.K. is having a demographic collapse.
The U.S. is at a stalemate demographically right now.
If it wasn't for all the new migrants coming in, the U.S. would be collapsing in terms of its population and so on.
I mean, we're looking at the tipping point of a die-off globally.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Dr.
Lewis, in wrapping this up, there was something you told me off camera.
I don't know if that's anything that you're allowed to share, but I want to give you the opportunity.
You were talking about some interesting things that had happened to you.
Is that something that's going to be in your book, or is that something that you can mention publicly?
I just want to be respectful of the privacy of it.
Well, thanks for that.
I'm wide open to talk about any of that you might be interested in.
Tell us how you were approached by people during the Trump administration and then what happened from there, if you would.
And again, I mean, I'm not probing.
You can feel free to keep private whatever you want.
I just thought you might want to talk about it.
Sure, I appreciate the opportunity.
I've much The current book that I'm working on, the working title is From Latvia with Love.
This experience that much of my book deals with began where a woman scientist in Latvia showed up in Watkinsville, Georgia of all places, a little town in North Georgia.
And I was introduced by a mutual friend of ours to this woman who was very enthusiastic about my research and invited me to come to Russia to basically do what EPA is not allowing me to do in the United States, that is do research on these problems.
And it turned out that That was only the first of a series of individuals from foreign countries that showed up when EPA was not supporting my work and they wanted to support my work, which to me is very disturbing.
It probably wouldn't be to most anyone else, but what it tells me, knowing how these kinds of problems, if we don't deal with land application, sewage sludge, or let's just say Soil pollution and water pollution and air pollution,
but particularly soil pollution, if we don't deal with that, then it can be weaponized to where if the EPA says, if they wash their hands of this, says, oh, these things are not carcinogenic enough to worry about, they're not mutagenic enough to worry about, we're not going to regulate them.
That just opens the door to foreign adversaries to come in And weaponize these weaknesses by promoting them and just making it a whole-scale free-for-all where our adversaries from China to Russia can come in and ruin our soil if they want to.
But isn't that interesting, though, that you were invited essentially to go to Russia to do the research?
Why would...
Is Russia trying to prevent pollution of their soils so that they have a future and they can have families and children and food that won't kill them?
Or was there some other purpose, like a weaponization vector?
Any idea?
Yeah, well, that is my...
The summation of this, my own personal belief, is that this is creating an opportunity that countries like Russia, people like Putin, Vladimir Putin, is so tempting they can't turn it down.
If the United States government is going to say, it's not a problem to put toxic chemicals in sewage sludge and spread it out and use it as a fertilizer on the places where we grow all our crops, They'll come in and put things in our sewage sludge that will,
since nothing's tested for it in the way of these really dangerous chemicals, and the things Russia would add would not be tested for anyway because we don't even know what those are.
Yeah, but this is something you said to me years ago for the Biosludge documentary.
And by the way, I want to mention it could be communist China as well, right?
But you said that any kind of bioterrorist, they could simply dump chemicals into the sewer, and it would go into the Biosludge processing facility, which exists in every city in America.
And then from there, it is trucked out and dumped on the farms.
And in some cases, dumped on, you know, School property, government property, parks, you know, but a lot of it or most of it goes on the farms.
You told me that and that stuck in my mind and it could be biological terrorism, it could be chemical terrorism, it could be unknown agents like you're talking about.
So what you're saying right now is really echoing what you said before that A foreign adversary could just show up in America, order up a bunch of chemicals, dump them into the sewage system, and then our cities distribute it onto the farms.
That's right.
That's crazy.
It really is.
It's as crazy as it gets.
And so what I did most lately was just find two or three chemicals that, like yttrium, that You can test for, and you find yttrium in your soil at any appreciable level.
That means you've got sewage sludge dumped on it.
So we need to get to mapping of all of our farmlands and other lands, school playgrounds, public parks, major creeks and rivers that are not being monitored by any of these chemicals, and just go around and look at the yttrium levels and see how badly We've polluted the Earth's soil at this point.
Would you let me know what elements?
Is it more than yttrium?
Is it a couple others as well?
Or is it just that one?
Yttrium is the one that I I chose to use, but there are a couple of others.
They're also universal.
After we finish this, if you would, let me know what those are.
We can talk after this and see how we can collaborate on this because I would love...
ICP-MS... Is not only obviously very good at seeing these elements, but ICP-MS is very, very accurate with a very small margin of error, as you know.
It's a much more accurate mass spec assessment.
And we can see subparts per billion on these kinds of elements, especially if we get some external standards of these, then we might be able to hit, you know, a few hundred parts per trillion limit of detection.
So let's talk about that off camera as we wrap this up.
But is there anything else that you want to offer here in this interview today?
Well, yeah, I would like to say that I have always worked closely with members of Congress that have environmental interests.
They're the people they represent to have environmental concerns that.
I had hoped that Joe Biden, given his background, would take an interest in this problem.
So I corresponded with his staff in the Atlanta area back when he was campaigning.
He had invited His staff had invited me to come have lunch with him one day, which is what happens when you donate the minimum of $10,000 to a campaign.
That's automatic.
So it was the way I got my foot in the door just to talk about these problems and urge him to get a grasp of how big these problems are and do something about it, unlike his previous five or so predecessors as president.
And it's His staff arranged a couple of meetings and canceled on him and then came back to me and asked me to donate additional money to his campaign.
That's what every congressman campaign staff does for a living.
So none of this was unusual.
It just struck me odd when I got an immediate response to my request For him to follow up on his breakfasts that I'd been invited to originally.
And the message was simply, no, you haven't donated enough money.
And it just drove it home to me.
Really, has it gone that far?
Well, yes, of course it has.
And you'll never have enough money to compete with industry's money.
Obviously, none of us will as individuals.
And it's politics.
I mean, your book is called Science for Sale.
Maybe your next book should be called, you know, America for Sale, because that's what you were experiencing.
Everything is for sale.
You know, politics is for sale.
Policy is for sale.
And you and I don't have deep enough pockets to ever influence policy in any kind of significant way, sadly.
Unfortunately.
That's where we are.
Well, Dr. Lewis, I just want to say thank you for your contributions to this debate, to this sound of the alarm, what you're trying to do for humanity.
I mean, Biden's people, if they had any idea, they should have given you $10,000 and I Like, join, you know, work for us.
Help sound the alarm.
I mean, here you are, Dr.
Lewis, trying to literally save the world or the future of our world from these chemical contaminants, and all they can say is, like, give us more money?
Are you kidding me?
That just seems completely insane to me.
But we're doing the best we can.
We'll have you back on, Dr.
Lewis, when your next book is available.
And in the meantime, stand by.
I want to make sure you've got my mobile number so you can reach me.
And let's talk about these elemental markers for BioSludge and see what we can do together on that front.
Sounds good.
Absolutely.
Thank you for joining me today.
It's always an honor to speak with you.
Thank you.
Same here.
Absolutely.
Quite an honor just to get to talk to the public once in a while.
Yeah, well, we've got to make that happen more often.
You can't stay in your den working on your book 24-7, right?
You've got to get out and talk to the world that you're trying to save.
Anyway, folks, the book, again, is Science for Sale, Dr.
Dr. David Lewis, and that's L-E-W-I-S if you're looking for the author name, L-E-W-I-S, Dr. David Lewis, Ph.D., former EPA scientist, EPA whistleblower, and is also featured prominently in the film that I produced several years ago called BioSludged, which you and is also featured prominently in the film that I produced several years ago called BioSludged, which you can We actually filmed Dr.
David Lewis in our mass spec lab for that documentary, so that's some interesting history there.
Thank you, Dr.
Lewis, and please stand by so we can chat after this.
But again, thank you for joining me today.
It's been a pleasure.
It's been an honor.
Thank you.
All right, and for those watching, feel free, as usual, to repost this interview on other channels and platforms.
You have our permission to do so.
We've got to spread the word about this, or we don't have a future, bottom line.
We just simply don't have a future if we don't solve these problems.
That's why we chose the green grass, the fields of grass, the Brighteon logo for us today for this interview.
If we lose the natural world, we lose humanity, okay?
We lose everything.
We lose civilization if we don't solve these problems.
So thank you for joining me today.
Mike Adams here, the Health Ranger, brighteon.com, and also naturalnews.com.
God bless you all.
Take care.
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