Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

Jan. 7, 2021 - The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters

01:53:49

Triggernometry | The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #41

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the podcast of the load seaters for Thursday, the 7th of January, 2021.
	I'm joined today by the Trigonometry Chaps, Francis Foster and Constantine Kissin.
	Welcome to the podcast, guys.
	Can you hear me?
	Thanks for having us, Matt.
	What a good slow news day to have us on.
	Yeah, isn't this wonderful?
	Well, thank you.
	I mean, thanks a lot for having us on, Carl.
	I was actually half Venezuelan, thought I'd slip it in there.
	I was talking to my Venezuelan cousin the other night, and I said to him, you know the world's gone to shit when even the gringos are going mental.
	Okay, YouTube, I disavow that statement.
	We're too problematic even for Carl.
	I was expecting it to be the other way around.
	Yeah, well, we haven't got to talking about what happened yet, so maybe you'll be disavowing me in a minute.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, I guess we'd better give people a quick summary of what's happened.
	There was a big protest, the Stop the Steal protest, because the Congress and the House were meeting to arrange the confirmation of Joe Biden.
	Going to be something like 12 objections to this in the Senate.
	But during the first objection, a crowd of Trump supporters somehow managed to fight their way past the police and storm the Capitol building, breaking in.
	And then, I don't know, they kind of paraded around, taking selfies and acting like prats.
	Through the building, which amusing as that is on social media, you've got to ask yourself why are they doing it, before one of them was shot, a lady was shot by the Secret Service in the process of this, which seems to have soured the mood somewhat, and then all hell appears to have broken loose.
	I think that's a fairly accurate summary, isn't it?
	The lady also died as well.
	She did, yes.
	And there are three other people who have died as well, but we don't know exactly why they say there's some kind of medical emergencies that they had.
	Yes, I'm not actually aware of why they died either, like you say, but you are correct.
	It seems to be four protesters have died during these protests.
	So I guess I'll just throw it over to you guys and say, what do you make of it all?
	Well, so, I don't know where to start.
	Just dump you in the deep end, you know?
	No, no, but look, there's a reason that we've been condemning Antifa, BLM, all the stuff that people on the left have been doing for the last four years, the Russia collusion hoax, all the lies, all of that shit.
	We've been condemning it, not because we've been on the side of Trump, because we haven't.
	We've never been on that side, and we've always made that very clear.
	But we've always condemned the excesses and stupidities of the left so that precisely when something like this happened, we could be authentic in saying, we don't support this either.
	This is crazy, man.
	And, you know, I completely understand people who say, well, BLM rioted, Antifa rioted.
	I totally get that.
	But when you storm the Capitol as they're about to certify the election, And you prevent that from happening by breaking through and people die as a result.
	That's terrible.
	That is not what democracy should look like.
	And for that to be happening...
	Look, I'm from Russia.
	If that was to happen in Russia, everybody would be like, yeah, that's fair enough.
	They didn't kill enough people.
	But in America, this shouldn't be happening.
	Yes.
	Sorry, go on, Francis.
	No, I was going to say that what it does is it sets a very, very dangerous precedent for democracy, where you have somebody, the president, consistently saying that the election was stolen, consistently whipping up a section of his fan base.
	And you have to ask yourself, after all the rhetoric, after all the tweets, after all the speeches that he made, was this inevitable?
	Was this going to happen?
	And I think it was.
	If you use that kind of rhetoric, unfortunately there's going to be a small section of the fanbase who are going to then go and do something extreme, whatever side of the spectrum you're on.
	Before we get back to you Karl, what I would say just in the interest of balance is, and this is separate things to talk about, so having condemned it all, what Twitter has done and what big tech have done I think is a big problem that sets a terrible precedent.
	So I completely disagree with what Trump has done.
	I completely disagree with the people who stormed that.
	But Twitter preventing him from speaking, I think, is a bad mistake that will come back to bite everybody in the ass.
	And, you know, there's obviously the media who've been completely just inconsistent and hypocritical about it as well.
	But yeah, broadly speaking, not fans of what happened yesterday.
	And I think it was a big, big mistake.
	And he will come back to hurt conservatives, by the way, in a very big way.
	Because they've, you know, this is why you see mainstream conservatives, everyone from Vice President Pence down to Dan Crenshaw to Douglas Murray, everybody has come out and condemned this.
	Why?
	Because it's going to destroy the brand for a very long time.
	It's going to tarnish it very, very badly.
	Because, you know, you can't be doing this, in my opinion.
	And it's also delegitimized Trump's presidency.
	And, you know, there are things that he did, the things that, for instance, that we agreed with when it comes to opposing factions of the hard left, some of the most insane and lunatic policies of the Democrats.
	But you cannot say now, oh, I agree with some aspects of Trump's presidency because of this.
	It has delegitimized everything.
	It has tarnished everything.
	And it's completely destroyed his legacy.
	Yeah, I mean, I... Just to be clear, I don't...
	I disavow storming capital buildings, obviously.
	For anyone on YouTube who might be listening, we obviously disavow this kind of thing here at the Lotus Eaters.
	We are a movement of peace and do not wish for any mostly peaceful protests to take part in our name.
	But yeah, I think you're making a great point there.
	The...
	The problem...
	So my view is that the actual events are not quite as shocking as I think they're being made out to be.
	So I was following it, obviously, as it was happening live.
	And it is shocking to see a group of protesters storming the Capitol.
	But this isn't unprecedented.
	I mean, the same thing happened during the Kavanaugh hearing when, what's her name?
	Elizabeth Warren.
	In fact, Fox News reported it as Elizabeth Warren's protesters because she was the one there riling them up in very much the same way that Donald Trump was doing, in fact.
	buildings and occupied them in the same way.
	The Hart Senate office building was broken into and 302 protesters were arrested and charged with unlawfully demonstrating in Senate office buildings in 2018.
	So this isn't unprecedented, but the difference is the timing of the confirmation, as you say.
	And so it's also the nature of the issue that is being that is in question.
	You Yes, appointing Brett Kavanaugh.
	And by the way, a reminder, you, me, Francis, everybody condemned what happened on those days.
	But there is a bit of a difference, even though the appointment of Supreme Court justice is very big and very important.
	An election for U.S. president is a different level.
	Well, I mean, it's still the confirmation of one of the highest offices in the land.
	Yeah, I agree.
	I mean, I agree it's an escalation.
	I agree it's an escalation.
	Obviously, the president's a higher office, but it's not much of an escalation.
	They're still both important positions.
	And like you say, all of us and you guys and pretty much everyone on the same centrist liberal view of things doesn't want this kind of political activity.
	And this is what we were always saying that Black Lives Matter and Antifa were going to lead to.
	Because watching their street violence go unchecked or defended in the media, I think it drove the Republicans into a kind of form of resentment.
	Why are they getting this special treatment?
	And now it seems that the Republicans have reached the same point of political activism that Black Lives Matter and Antifa are at.
	You know, it's like, okay, well, we're prepared to use force to occupy these buildings.
	We're prepared to fight with the police.
	And, like, none of these are new phenomena in American politics.
	So the reaction...
	The thing I find really interesting about this is the direction in which the ire is going.
	Because when it was the Black Lives Matter and Antifeld ones, they're attacking private property and police, whereas with this, they're attacking the government buildings.
	And the police that are defending them.
	But I don't think they were really, like, angry at the police per se.
	It's that the police were doing their jobs.
	And so I just find that interesting that there's this kind of difference there, the directions in which they're moving.
	But I mean, obviously, I agree that, you know, we shouldn't be storming anything.
	But, I mean, do you guys not think that this is the kind of end result of, well, I mean, what I'd say, like, four years of censorship?
	Yeah.
	I think part of this is glamorising violence on both sides.
	And I remember, I can't remember when it was, it might have been a couple of years ago, three years ago.
	Do you remember when people were starting to talk about milkshaking and how it was a bit of fun?
	And you're like, oh, it's milkshake Nigel Farage, it's milkshake Tommy Robinson.
	I got milkshaked.
	Yeah, of course.
	Well, that we approved, Doug.
	Oh, yeah, thanks.
	To be honest, I enjoyed it.
	It was fun.
	But the problem is, is that it's a very, very slippery scale.
	Once you've condone that sort of behavior to one particular person, then you go, okay, well, then I can throw something else.
	Milkshake turns into something else, turns into fist, turns into rights.
	We have to, on every side of the political spectrum, whatever your viewpoint, whether you're right, left, centre, say that any form of violence is unacceptable.
	Because once you start condoning violence on your side, your position becomes untenable and you can't condone violence on the other side.
	You can't say, for instance, oh, what Trump supporters did is unacceptable if you're in agreement with BLM burning, looting, Chas, all the rest of it, and vice versa as well.
	We need to have some consistency applied to our politics.
	Yeah, and you're right, Carl, that it hasn't been for the last four years, probably longer.
	And that will undoubtedly have riled up a lot of people.
	But I also think that anyone who, like you and like us, I mean, we have a very sort of centrist audience and a lot of left-wing people that watch us, and as well as a lot of people on the right.
	And I'm saying to my followers who are right of center, you listen to me when I told you BLM and Antifa were being wrong and bad and the media were wrong and bad to cover in the way.
	You've got to listen to me now when I'm telling you this is also wrong and bad.
	Yeah.
	I think you're exactly right, because you're speaking to the procedure of the thing.
	You know, how we get from A to B to C, aren't you?
	The intention behind it really doesn't matter, because it's the means itself that delegitimizes what the cause is.
	And I completely agree with you.
	I completely agree with you.
	But I've got to say, right, I hate the media coverage of this.
	I hate the media coverage of it so much.
	Like, I mean, this is from the New York Times coverage.
	They say there's no...
	Yeah, I know.
	That'll be balanced then.
	If you've got anything from The Guardian, mate, that'll be a little bit more down the line.
	What about pink news cards?
	We'll get to them.
	So they say, there was no parallel in modern American history with insurgents acting in the president's name, vandalizing Speaker Pelosi's office, smashing windows, looting art, and briefly taking control of the Senate chamber, where they took turns posing for photographs with fists up on the dais where Mr.
	Pence had just been presiding.
	Well, I mean, I don't know what they consider modern, but I mean, the Black Panthers stormed the California state capitol in 1967, armed with assault rifles.
	So, I mean, this seems like a modern parallel to me.
	But again, it's one of those things that they're trying to make this out to be a unique and exceptional event.
	And I don't think it is.
	And we've already mentioned the Kavanaugh protest.
	But I mean, you can go back to June in 2020 and look at the riots there, the George Floyd riots there, where you had a curfew across the city because, and there are pictures of it that you can Google, where a large section of the city is just lit up by fire because there's fire everywhere.
	And so it's like, okay, we're not going to pretend.
	The last four years have just been this peaceful, peaceful activist protest, putting flowers in gun barrels and stuff like that.
	And then suddenly the Trump supporters have come along and introduced violence into things.
	Sorry, we've seen all of this going on.
	And like you say, we've disavowed it then.
	And like we have to do, if we want to be consistent, is disavow this now.
	We've got to say no.
	No violence.
	But I mean, I don't think it's going to be the end.
	What do you guys think?
	I hope it is.
	But this is sort of you're approaching red shirts versus brown shirts territory here, aren't you?
	And it's very scary.
	And as we've talked about, I don't think...
	The main thing that people on the right should be thinking about, in my opinion, is, is this helping you in the long run?
	Because the truth is, we all understand this.
	Joe Biden is going to be the next president of the United States.
	He is.
	There's nothing anyone's going to do about that.
	He will be the next president, right?
	And the Democrats will control the Senate.
	And the House.
	That's what's going to happen.
	So you've got a complete lock on the entire American electoral system by the Democrats on the left.
	And you want to kick this shit off now?
	What do you think they're going to do?
	Well, I mean, we've got Trump's concession statement, actually.
	He says, What do you make of that?
	I don't even know what that fucking means.
	Sorry, I don't know if I'm meant to be swearing or not.
	I don't know.
	What does that mean?
	Okay, he's saying there will be an orderly transition, but he's also saying it's the beginning of our fight.
	What does that mean?
	I assume that he means it's his opposition to the radical left-wing agenda that is continuing.
	But it seems that he's conceding that Joe Biden will become the next president.
	He's committing to an orderly transition of power.
	And he did actually post tweets and a video of himself calling for the protesters to stop, not use violence, and go home.
	But Twitter removed those.
	What do you think of Twitter being able to censor the President of the United States?
	I think it sets a very, very dangerous precedent.
	Social media companies need to decide what they are.
	What are you?
	Are you a publisher?
	Are you a platform?
	Are you going to edit content?
	Are you simply going to put up content and leave it there?
	Which one are you?
	Because at the moment, it seems that social media companies can't actually decide what they're going to be.
	And if they continue doing this and editing content and essentially...
	What was I going to say?
	They're editing content, putting up content that...
	I'm sorry, I've lost my train of thought.
	That's the word I'm looking for.
	Censoring content.
	Then they need to be treated as such.
	What we cannot have are four big companies who disseminate the majority of our information with a political agenda.
	That is an incredibly dangerous place for democracy to be in.
	Well, it's actually worse than that because if they were to listen to Francis, they'd make things even worse because, and he and I have talked about this, which is if you make them publishers, they're just going to censor 10 times as hard, aren't they?
	So there is no actually obvious answer.
	But the reality is what happened with Twitter last night is Twitter decided the outcome of this whole thing.
	Single-handedly.
	Facebook also censored Trump as well.
	But Twitter were first, right?
	And Twitter is Donald Trump's main outlet for communicating with the public.
	So what Jack Dorsey essentially did is single-handedly decided how this incident would play out.
	Now, as it happens, I don't agree with him doing that on principle.
	I do agree that, Joe Biden, there needs to be a smooth and orderly and democratic transition to the next duly elected president of the United States.
	But the precedent of Twitter deciding who is the next president of the United States is not a healthy precedent.
	And I've been warning about this for years now, Carl, which is that once the big tech overlords realize how powerful they are, it's like that...
	14-year-old teenager who's 6'4 and really big, and he doesn't know his own strength.
	And then one day someone pisses him off.
	He knocks them out.
	And then he goes, oh, wow, look at this power I've got on my fist.
	And you've unleashed somebody who might well get out of control.
	So that aspect of it troubles me tremendously.
	And I think that was a big, big mistake.
	And also the problem is, as well, is that these people are in bed with the Democrats.
	The Democrats aren't going to do anything to censor them.
	Trump would have done.
	Trump would have actually been interested in tackling these people head on.
	These people, the Democrats and Big Tech, they have similar politics, they have similar outlook on the world.
	The Democrats aren't going to be interested in dealing or tackling these monopolies.
	So do you think censorship and kind of a tightening of restriction of editorial control will increase under the Democrats and Joe Biden?
	I feel like I should ask in a neutral manner.
	So I'm setting up the question for you to answer exactly as you like.
	I know what the answer is.
	Look, the answer is in the word.
	What is a word that they all use?
	I'm a progressive.
	What does progressive mean?
	You progress, you move forward.
	They're not going to stay still.
	They're always going to move forward in a political direction.
	They want to be, and again, you hear this many times, they want to be on the right side of history.
	What does the right side of history mean?
	It means getting rid of views and opinions that are problematic, racist, i.e.
	not their own.
	If you disagree, you are problematic.
	And they are progressing every day and every month in a particular direction.
	And more and more, you're going to see what is being allowed on YouTube It's going to get narrower and narrower and narrower when it comes to people's viewpoints and the content that they publish until we're going to reach a point where it's only going to be a narrow subset of the correct views.
	And if you stray from these views, if you challenge them in any shape or form, you become, again, to use another word, problematic, which means that you're on the wrong side of history, which means that your content will be deleted and so will your channel.
	Right.
	And I said this at the time when the Hunter Biden story didn't break.
	They tried to break it and it didn't break.
	Big tech suppressed it.
	To me, that was the biggest story of 2020.
	It was bigger than the election.
	It was bigger than coronavirus.
	It was bigger than lockdowns.
	It was bigger than everything.
	Because what we knew, what we found out then...
	Big tech companies, they were ready to play.
	They wanted to be a player in our electoral system.
	And the reality is that unless someone addresses it, and I don't see it happening in the next four years under Joe Biden, unless somebody addresses it, we're never, ever going to have another free or fair election ever again.
	I mean, I think you're exactly right with the Hunter Biden thing being this kind of unnoticed but massive problem.
	I mean, I'm underplaying it.
	It's not unnoticed.
	But you've got the sort of mainstream, and then you've got the sort of MAGA stream that goes along parallel to it, and then you've got the sort of Antifa stream on the other side that goes along parallel to that, right?
	And in the sort of mainstream and Antifa stream, the left stream...
	The Hunter Biden story was completely suppressed and nobody really understood any of it or knew any about it.
	So it was just completely...
	The MAGA side were very, very much like, oh my God, this is outright corruption.
	This looks like Banana Republic stuff.
	You know, this is really bad.
	And social media...
	And it was the New York Post as well.
	If it was some sort of wacko fringe...
	It wasn't the New York Post.
	Yeah.
	And so if it was some wacko fringe outlet, you'd be like, okay, well, you know, another day, another dollar.
	But when it's such a prestigious and old, you know, this is like Alexander Hamilton's newspaper.
	You know, it's the oldest newspaper in the United States.
	And Twitter are just like, no, you're not having that link on our site.
	Right.
	The link will be deplatformed.
	And there were polls done that showed that if people had known about the Hunter Biden story, then something like 10% of them wouldn't have voted for Joe Biden, which would have been enough to actually swing the election.
	So if we're talking about election interference, that's actually a really clear cut example of how censorship can swing elections and affect democracy.
	That's only part of it, Carl.
	What about the polling?
	Let's talk about the polling.
	The polling is consistently under-representing people who are right of center.
	Someone who's in the center, that troubles me a lot, because if you keep releasing these polls that are done in a way that doesn't reflect reality, those polls act as voter suppression as well, right?
	If you keep telling people your candidate is never going to win, some people aren't going to go to vote.
	And so...
	I do not in any way, and I say this knowing that both your audience and a portion of our audience don't like hearing this, but I don't in any way buy these claims of election fraud.
	I'm sure it happened on individual cases.
	I don't think it was in any way sizable enough to affect the outcome of the election.
	Does that mean I think it was a free and fair election?
	I don't think it was a free and fair election because of all the other things we're talking about.
	Completely biased media, election interference by big tech, election interference through the polling.
	So I don't think there was fraud on a scale that affected the election, but was there interference?
	I'm certain of it, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, one thing that's interesting, Francis, about what we've discussed there is I'm not even sure we're actually allowed to make the counterclaim that there was because YouTube's guidelines say, and we got this from clarification through Tim Pool, that we can say that the election was stolen from Trump or that the Democrats didn't win, but we can't say that there was widespread election fraud by the Democrats.
	So we're not allowed to say that, apparently.
	So, I mean, and that in itself is an editorial policy.
	As you're saying, the range of opinions are allowed and narrowing.
	And there are other ones about the coronavirus.
	We had a video taken down because I had done a video presenting what two German doctors had said about the vaccine.
	Now, I don't know anything about the vaccines.
	I was just saying, well, look, these guys are saying these about vaccines.
	Maybe there's something to consider here.
	I don't know.
	You know, we should at least be aware of this.
	And YouTube took it down and said, no, this is medical misinformation.
	So, OK, well, there we go.
	I guess I guess now you have to be a registered doctor to be able to talk about these things.
	Oh, no, actually, you can't because these were registered doctors and they were talking about these things.
	So I don't know what the what the case is.
	And, you know, if you can't go against the World Health Organization, but their position on this changes like the wind.
	So who knows what we're allowed to say there?
	So it's it it's mad.
	And we completely agree with you.
	We did an interview with Dr.
	Sukurik Bhakti, who is a professor of medical microbiology or former chair of medical microbiology at the University of Mainz.
	And he came on and he challenged several narratives about the coronavirus, discussing the vaccine.
	And then that was taken down, ironically, just as it was about to hit a million views.
	And it's now come to the point, like we were saying before, there are opinions that...
	That YouTube see as being valid, as being fair, as being on the right side of history, and there are opinions that are not.
	And when it comes to the coronavirus, what is very, very interesting is if you talk to anyone who's got a scientific background or knows about immunology, virology, and you ask them questions about the coronavirus, and they will respond with the same words, we don't know, we don't yet know, we're doing investigations.
	So how can it be that people come on and challenge particular narratives or challenge hypotheses, which is surely what science is all about?
	And immediately they're wiped and erased from history when we don't know enough about this virus at the moment.
	And equally, coming back to your thing, Kyle, as well, about being able to articulate the counter-argument on the electoral fraud, I would love to have that conversation with you, for you to go, actually, Constantine, this is what you don't understand, here's something, here's this, here's that, and for us to have a debate and then people can make up their own mind.
	And the fact that we're not allowed to happen, I would bet you, means that there's way more people who are convinced of the electoral fraud being true than otherwise would have been true if we'd actually been able to have a conversation with it.
	I can actually give you the statistics of this, because YouGov did a snap poll about yesterday's events, and they included the question, voters who believe enough fraud took place at the presidential election to change the outcome.
	And overall, so from both Republicans and Democrats, 56% of people supported this statement, while 34% opposed.
	So more than half of American voters, at least, do reply to this poll.
	I don't know how representative it is, of course, but there was another poll as well done about a month ago where it suggested that about half of the American public think that there's been a steal.
	And so, like, I mean...
	I was watching stuff going on last night and it just struck me as strange optimism to think that the Republicans and Democrats could stand in the chamber and just speak their narratives and the Democrats could speak their narratives and both narratives are speaking past each other.
	You know, no one's engaging with each other's points.
	And so it's a complete breakdown of dialogue.
	And that this could just go on.
	You know, you can't govern a country where 50% of the people think that the person in charge is illegitimate.
	That's just not possible.
	That's the end of a democracy.
	So what would you guys say is the solution to moving forward?
	How can the Americans fix the problem that they have?
	I think it goes much deeper than this, and you've used a word which, to me, goes at the very core of this problem, which is the word narrative.
	Everybody has their narrative.
	Whatever the narrative may be, you may have a narrative as a Trump supporter, you may have a narrative as a Democrat, BLM, trans, whatever it is.
	And what that means is that you are regurgitating a position without investigating, without challenging it for yourself, without reading into it, without actually deciding what is and isn't real and what you truly think.
	And that's what people do now, is they just regurgitate a narrative and they don't find out what the facts are and what they truly believe.
	And what that means is we increasingly live in ever-polarized societies because all we do is listen to what someone says, listen to or read what someone tweets, regurgitates it and goes, that's what I believe.
	And by doing that, all you're doing is perpetuating lies and misinformation.
	Read about it for yourself, make up your own mind, think about it and then say what you think.
	Yeah, I mean, if I speak to a hardcore MAGA supporter or a hardcore left-wing supporter, I know exactly the points they're going to bring up.
	As soon as they bring up one point, they'll say stop the steal or they'll say white supremacy or something like that.
	And as soon as these sort of key words come up, you know exactly the rest of what's going to come out of their mouth if you ask them about this topic, that topic, and the other topic.
	It's literally like they're in a play, like there's a theatre production or something.
	They've got a specific set of lines to recite.
	So I was watching the lead-up to the storming of the Capitol, and I found it really frustrating because the Republicans would get up and say, In Pennsylvania and Georgia, there was procedural problems.
	So the poll watchers were kept out in Detroit, for example.
	And there's video of this.
	There's video of the Republican poll watchers not being allowed to go into the polls.
	And that is procedurally illegal.
	That's a federal offence.
	You have to have the polls watched by two members of each party to prevent malfeasance, obviously.
	And so the fact that one was kept out when the other one wasn't, presumably by the other one, I think is a perfectly valid thing for the Republicans to object to.
	It's a true thing.
	We've got the video evidence.
	We've got 30 or so affidavits that have been sworn by the people who are supposed to have been in there watching the polls.
	And so the fact that the Democrats, I can't remember which senator it was, stood up and gave this information, then sat down.
	And the Democrats just stood up and said, there was no problem here.
	There's no evidence of fraud.
	Therefore, we don't care what you have to say.
	I can totally understand why the Republicans are so angry, right?
	Because there are lots of large theories that are going to be very, very difficult to substantiate coming out of people like Linwood and Sidney Powell, right?
	I have no particular time or interest to try and unravel.
	But when you've got very specific points like in Michigan, where you have very good evidence, video evidence, on the spot that was going on Twitter as it was happening, and the Democrats refuse to engage with that at all, I really can't help but think that we're doomed.
	You know, the American Republic is doomed.
	Because if the Democrats can't accept that some people on their side may have done something wrong.
	Now, I'm not saying that's an indictment of the entire Democratic Party or anything, but you would think the Democratic Party would say, well, okay, well, what we're going to do is investigate those poll watchers in Detroit and find out what happened.
	You know, why did they keep them out?
	What was going on?
	But there was none of that.
	You know, it's been like, no, there's been no problems.
	Shut up, Republicans.
	You're all Nazis.
	Well, two things I would say on that.
	Sidney Powell was where I jumped off the train because up until that point, I was like, let's find out what's going on here.
	I'm interested.
	I'm open-minded.
	And then when she started talking about Venezuelans interfering in the electoral system in the United States, I work with a guy who's Venezuelan.
	I know they can't do anything.
	So that was never going to happen.
	YouTube disavowed.
	Disavowed.
	No, it's true, we're not.
	They're not that organised.
	We're disorganised, we're very bad, we like sugar sniffing, but we're exceptionally good lovers.
	So there we go.
	I don't know about that.
	Anyway, thankfully I've never found out.
	So that's the first thing.
	The other thing I would say is I completely understand that some people have concerns about these individual issues.
	My position always was I am very open to hearing what they are.
	Let the judiciary in the United States investigate and run its course.
	For the most part, I think on most of the issues that did happen.
	Where it didn't happen, again, I'm open to that.
	Can I contradict you on that?
	Yeah, go for it.
	But in the phone call with Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia Secretary of State, Trump's legal team were complaining that they haven't been assigned a judge and they haven't been given the reports that Raffensperger is referring to, saying, well, you know, we've got a report that shows that your numbers are wrong, your evidence is wrong.
	And they're like, well, can we have that, please?
	And Raffensperger was refusing to give it to them.
	So he was being uncooperative and not enabling them to be able to at least see their side of the argument, you know?
	So the Trump team are like, well, we haven't had our day in court.
	We don't have the information that you have.
	Why should we just believe you?
	And so I really can see, on the Trump-supporting side, the frustration, because it looks like they've been stonewalled, and it looks like the courts have essentially ejected.
	I mean, Texas' court case was rejected on standing, not on the merits, because it looks like nobody really wants to go through the merits.
	Because, again, the Linwood-Sydney Powell stuff, who knows what's going on with Venezuela...
	You know, data mining and all this sort of stuff.
	I don't know anything about that, but that's irrelevant.
	But it is obvious that, like, I can't remember which states it was, but one of the states just extended the deadline for receiving mail-in ballots, which is itself an unconstitutional act.
	They can't just unilaterally extend this deadline.
	This had to have gone through their state senate, and it didn't.
	It was just the governor was like, yeah, well, we'll just extend it.
	That's an unconstitutional act.
	And so you would think that the courts would be like, well, okay, that's a very easy thing for us to point to and say this is crystal clear, as the Constitution reads out, like in Detroit with the poll watchers.
	You know, this is a crystal clear, I mean, you could say mistake, but it doesn't look like a mistake.
	It looks kind of intentional.
	Why can't the Republicans have that addressed, you know?
	But again, it just gets shunted out of the courts.
	The Democrats in the Congress say, and then in the Senate just say, well, sorry, we don't recognize the legitimacy of any of these complaints.
	And so it kind of, it corrupts the image of the Democratic Party in the minds of the Republicans, because the Republicans don't look at them like they're the loyal opposition anymore, because they look like they're lying and they're covering up and they've closed ranks, you know?
	Well, there are two enemy sides now, aren't there?
	I mean, on the court cases, I heard Lindsey Graham talking in the Senate precisely about a number of these cases saying that if Al Gore can accept 5-4 against him, I accept 4-3 against us this time.
	So he listed a number of these court cases.
	And I hear you.
	Some of them weren't heard on the merits.
	They were heard on standing.
	But that is the legal system.
	And really, the position that I think we're stuck in now is either you accept that the United States has a set of procedures that are, broadly speaking, being followed, or you go the other way.
	And the other way is you say what some people are saying, which I completely don't approve of, which is, Well, the system is corrupt and what we need is to take matters into our own hands.
	Those are the two choices.
	Those are the choices now.
	There is no third way.
	And the problem is, as well, is that people's faith in democracy has been shaken and it really no longer exists.
	And you can take it all the way back to 2016 with the Brexit vote.
	Look what happened with Brexit, where it came through and people did everything they could to stop it happening, without realizing how dangerous it is to say to people, your vote doesn't count, your vote doesn't matter.
	And they did the same thing with Trump.
	When he got elected, this wasn't real, this was fake, this was Russian collusion.
	Again, damaging the very foundations of democracy.
	I think you were about to disagree with me.
	Go for it.
	Well, yeah, I think that this is the problem, right?
	Because...
	The particular instances of procedural and constitutional malfeasance that seemed to be very evident, these individual cases, in particular places where we've got video of the people involved, or we've got direct records because of executive orders that were signed to accept mail-in ballots after the date and whatnot.
	These are very boring and quite legalistic things.
	And yet they weren't accepted by the courts.
	And so I can see why the Trump voters feel like there is no legal avenue because this is normally what they would do.
	You know, but if the courts are refusing to take the cases and the Democrats are refusing to accept that, like, and as you were saying about narratives earlier, Francis, I think this is very important.
	Like the narrative, like you get these points, you know, these narrative points.
	So the narrative on the Trump side is that none of the court cases were accepted by the courts.
	And I don't think many of them were.
	Maybe one or two were, but I'm pretty sure that most of them weren't.
	And if the Democrats say, no, you've had your day in court, then we've got an irreconcilable two positions that can't come together.
	And so essentially you need to get them to sit down at a table and accept whatever is true about the other person's position.
	And it seems to me that the left broadly has spent the last four or five years deliberately not doing that, you know, because they think control of the narrative means control of events.
	And so if you can refuse to engage with the other person's narrative, then effectively you stop them from progressing, right?
	You stop them from getting any further down the road they're heading down.
	And if the road you're trying to head down as a Trump supporter is, I would like the Michigan poll watchers to be punished for breaking the law and the Democrats refuse to accept they've broken the law and you can't get that into a court, then where do you go as a Trump supporter from there?
	Like, what's the impression you're left with?
	See, there's...
	I mean, in terms of how the left has behaved for the last four years, I think there's no disagreement between the three of us.
	Totally, totally.
	Totally.
	So we're all on board with that.
	The one thing I would say, we've had many big Trump fans on our show.
	One of our biggest interviews with a guy called Jim Rickards, and the title of that episode is literally, Donald Trump is a genius.
	That is what he said, right?
	Yeah.
	So we are not at all averse to...
	I mean, he's going a little bit far there, but...
	Well, so that's our show.
	We talk to people from the left.
	We talk to people from the right.
	We talk to people from the center.
	And the one thing that Jim Rickards, this big Trump fan, said on our show a year and a half, two years ago, was Donald Trump is a genius.
	And the reason that he was talking about it was that Donald Trump, according to him, was reshaping the American judiciary in a way that will last for generations, right?
	He's appointing these young conservative judges to benches at every level.
	Yep.
	From the Supreme Court down.
	So when we talk about the Democrats denying the Republicans their day in court, it's not really the Democrats that are denying them that.
	I didn't say it was the Democrats that denied the day in court.
	It was the court system itself that seems to have rejected these things.
	Right.
	And so this is my point.
	I can't speak to why either.
	So this is my point.
	So when I see that the Supreme Court, which has three Trump nominees and five or six now Republican justices nominated by Republican presidents, and they reject things that Trump tries to bring to the Supreme Court.
	And in other cases, you see Trump-appointed and conservative judges rejecting all that stuff.
	To me, that is reassuring about the nature of the judicial process.
	I see that as reassuring.
	If these were all people appointed by Democrats, then that would be a different conversation.
	But one of the big things that Trump fans talked about with Donald Trump is that he has reshaped the judiciary in his own image, if you like.
	And people were very happy with that until three weeks ago.
	Now you have to look at those judges making those decisions, whether they're on the standing or in the merit, and go, well, that to me is...
	I'm not saying I know the exact ins and outs, but I'm just saying, to me, that is reassuring.
	See, I see that as being more worrying because the cases that I'm pointing out here, like the two cases I've just brought up here, they don't seem to be very controversial from a partisan perspective, right?
	Like if one side keeps poll watchers out of the election count, then that side's done something wrong.
	I mean, we can agree that, right?
	That's unquestionable.
	There's just no way of spinning that to one side's favor or another.
	That is, the people there who are taking those actions, if it's videoed, if you've got sworn statements from the people involved, then that seems to be plenty of evidence that should be brought before a court, and the people who did that should be charged with a crime, because it is a crime.
	And yet those people have not been charged with a crime and there's no repercussions for this.
	It doesn't even matter about the election and the results.
	I'm not even saying that means that the ballots are invalid or anything like that.
	but if these people aren't going to be brought to justice for committing a crime, then what now, you know, and they may well end up being, I just, I don't know that that will change the outcome of the election.
	But what I agree, I agree.
	I'm not even thinking about changing the outcome of the election here.
	What I'm concerned about is, from the MAGA point of view, it looks like The political atmosphere, because we've got to remember that in America, the judiciary is a branch of the government.
	It is a political actor, which is why you always get to hear the name and the party political affiliation of the judges in America.
	Whereas in the UK, they never tell you the name of the judges, do they?
	They try to keep it so it's the institution of the judiciary that is part of the government.
	But it's subservient.
	It's the king's law or whatever.
	But in America, it's not.
	It's its own branch.
	And it's a separate thing.
	And so it is a political thing.
	And so watching the environment where it's been very tense, you know, it's been very, very high tense.
	High tension.
	Lots of violence in the streets.
	And the fact that none of the courts seem to want to engage with what appear to be really quite genuine concerns about the legality of certain elections in certain states and certain counties in those states.
	I find that deeply concerning.
	I do think the Trump supporters deserve their day in court with this and they feel like they aren't getting it.
	And then when they bring it finally to the Senate and object to the confirmation of Biden on these grounds, the Democrats won't recognize the truth of it.
	The Republicans don't either.
	This is the point, Carl.
	Republicans don't either.
	So the vast majority of the Republicans, people like Mitch McConnell, the vice president, many other senators, a huge swathe of the House and Senate Republicans, don't recognize this challenge either.
	So I don't think, frankly, at this point, it's a Democrat versus Republican issue.
	I think it's a Trump issue.
	Fan versus people who follow the process issue.
	But look, maybe I can extend an olive branch on this.
	My, and maybe to wrap it up, is my feeling on it is this will be like a sort of Cuban missile crisis type of moment when everybody wakes up and realizes how close we've come to the brink.
	And maybe the only hope for the future is people get so scared by what's just happened, they take a step back.
	And I do hope that's what happens.
	Because I think all of these cases you're talking about, they're legitimate conversations.
	And they do need to happen.
	And they do need to be investigated.
	Now, I'm not convinced that that will change the outcome of the election.
	I'm not sure that even you are.
	But they do need to be investigated, right?
	They need to be looked at.
	And the systems that caused all of this crisis need to be looked at and changed.
	And I hope that does happen for sure.
	Well, I really think it should because I think that until...
	I mean, okay, so here's a question.
	I think that democracy is based on compromise, right?
	So both sides have to come together and give the other side some of what they want in order to get some of what you want.
	And so both sides feel that they're with the loyal opposition rather than an enemy camp.
	That refuses every action at every point, right?
	So what is it that you think the Democrats should give for the Republicans?
	And what is it that you think the Republicans should give for the Democrats to bring this back to the center and create this kind of reunified body politic?
	Well, I don't know that it's about Democrats giving to Republicans and vice versa.
	I think it's about having ground rules that everybody follows.
	And this is what we've been talking about from the beginning, which is violence is unacceptable.
	Free speech is...
	Enshrined in the Constitution and people are allowed to express opinions.
	The job of the media is to be unbiased.
	This is what needs to happen.
	We need to go back to or forward to a time, maybe, as I say, where we've all gone, oh my God, this is what happens when for four years you just try to undermine and destroy the credibility of a duly elected president.
	Which is what happened.
	In 2016, Donald Trump was legitimately elected and the left tried to sabotage that.
	They tried to lie about him.
	They smeared him.
	They misrepresented a ton of things that he said.
	This is partly the product of that, right?
	So people, I hope, will step back and go, what are the ground rules that keep us, you know, like if you think about it in sporting terms, right?
	What are the rules that allow us to play the game of rugby without someone taking a gun out and shooting someone?
	That's a tense game of rugby.
	That's my point.
	But that's exactly where we've got to.
	So we need to go, what are the rules that we need in place that everybody can shake hands at the end of it and walk away from it feeling like it was a fair game?
	And look, somebody didn't get the rub of the green here or there, but on the whole, the judiciary was fair, the judicial process was fair, the electoral process, okay, it's not perfect, but it was reasonable and it was fair and it accurately reflects the voting of the people.
	You have to address all of that, because if you don't, this game that everyone is playing politically is going to descend into something very, very nasty and very ugly.
	Well, it's right that you say that.
	Unfortunately, I think we can all agree that it has descended.
	One thing that I think that is very, very important is the use of words, Karl.
	The way that we use words like fascist, racist, there's a long litany of them.
	They're currently trending on Twitter, in fact.
	We need both sides to stop using these words and only use them where appropriate.
	And that applies to a very, very small subsection of society.
	And we need to stop hurling these words around.
	We need to stop labelling people as these particular words and think these words don't have a consequence.
	Because what we need to all accept as well is that these words are not, they've ceased to be adjectives.
	What they are, are tools and weapons to shut down conversations.
	And when you use that word as a tool or weapon to shut down a conversation, all you're going to do is incite anger, frustration, resentment, which is then going to boil over in a different place.
	Which I think is what happened yesterday, frankly.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And it's the enemy of debate and it's the enemy of free speech.
	But this then comes back to the debate itself then.
	Because, I mean, I completely agree with you, obviously, on the rules that we play the game by.
	And this is one of the things that I'm so angry at the left about, is that they broke those rules first, and now the Republican, the MAGA side has caught up to them in the rule-breaking scheme.
	And it's like, oh God, this is where it starts going off the rails, right?
	Yeah.
	So it seems to me that, okay, so we want to get back to a position where we are in the centre and we can, you know, have some common overlap with the things that we believe.
	Because at the moment, the two narratives have diverged so completely that they don't recognise each other.
	And so if you want to bring them back, you've, like...
	On the left-wing narrative, you could say, right, police are heavy-handed towards black communities.
	They are treated as if they're a hostile threat and things like this.
	And I think there are lots of Republicans who probably could accept the truth of that, right?
	And I think there are a lot of people on the left who are saying things like that.
	And there is an underlying thread of truth to that.
	And, you know, you get the narratives that build up around the narrative that blow it out of proportion.
	But there's definitely something there.
	Otherwise, people wouldn't be saying it, right?
	So, I can...
	You know, if I'm representing the sort of MAGA side in this conversation, and you guys are representing the left side in this conversation, then, you know, that's something I can say, right, you're claiming this, and I can take ownership of some of this, you know?
	I can recognise the...
	But the MAGA folks are saying, well, okay, now let's point to this constitutional breach and the fact that nobody cares.
	What are you...
	What's the left going to do about this?
	And it seemed the left was just like, we're going to do nothing, screw you, you know?
	And that...
	Seems to me to be the antithesis of getting everyone back onto the same pitch, playing the same game.
	And I don't really see what else can be done, you know?
	And so I'm just kind of...
	The problem is with the left, and I'll make this point, and then, Constantine, you can jump in.
	I don't have anything to say.
	I was going to say I don't know what to say.
	Is that the left are obsessed with purity?
	They are.
	Even if you're on the left, you can never be left enough for the left.
	I'm an example of that where people go, yeah, but you're not really on the left.
	I'm like, well, I worked for 12 years as a primary school teacher in deprived communities.
	How can I not be more left?
	You're not a communist.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But that is how it works within the left.
	They're obsessed with purity.
	They're obsessed with being on the right side of history.
	They're obsessed with being right.
	Right.
	And it doesn't matter if someone puts forward an argument that has merit and has validity to it.
	They can't see to be agreeing with that particular person because then they're agreeing with a fascist or somebody on the right, which means you're not truly of the left, which means inevitably after a while, if you carry on with this particular behavior, you will be expelled from your own side.
	And that is a problem with the left.
	They are obsessed with purity.
	You talk to somebody who identifies as being left-wing, and you talk to them and say, oh, I was talking to this person, or I really like this person on the left's views.
	You always hear the same thing.
	Oh, but they're not really left.
	They're a centrist.
	Well, I'll give you an example of this.
	We have a friend of ours, another fellow comedian, who's a black guy from Barbados, and he gets called racist by other comedians because he's friends with us.
	You guys are not very controversial, in my opinion.
	No, we're not very controversial.
	But we do have the power to make a black man racist.
	That's how we have, Carl.
	That's how powerful we are.
	But actually, you know, I said I had nothing to say, but it made me think about, you know, what is some of the answers to this?
	And actually, not to blow anything up our own backsides, but actually, I think the conversation we're having now is part of the way you do this.
	Yeah.
	We clearly, there's disagreement.
	And I imagine your chat is popping off like crazy right now.
	I can't see it.
	So I imagine they are too.
	Probably at me for not prosecuting the case hard enough.
	Or at us for prosecuting the opposite case.
	But actually, we're still friends and we're still having a conversation, right?
	And I think that will be the way.
	And it's going to take people from different points of view to come together and actually talk.
	To hear each other, to try and understand where each other is coming from, to heal this.
	Because that is what it's about.
	It needs healing.
	There's a big divide.
	And unless it gets healed...
	And I see this.
	I see a lot of, quite frankly, irresponsible people on both sides.
	And, you know, how that looks on the left, we've talked about endlessly ad nauseum.
	On the right, that looks like people talking about how America should split and what we need as a succession.
	I think that's crazy.
	I think that's deeply irresponsible, very dangerous, and people should stop talking about it, frankly.
	Oh, I totally agree.
	I mean, like, I follow both echo chambers, the sort of radical echo chambers on either side.
	Half of it is just for my own entertainment, because you never know what's going to come out.
	Like, Lin Wood going on about QAnon and stuff like that.
	It's amusing, you know, to watch.
	But then you realize, this guy's got millions of followers, and he really believes this.
	And then all his followers, you know, a lot of them really believe this.
	And they've got to the point of demonizing the opposition that the opposition had got to the point of demonizing them.
	And so I'm very, very concerned.
	I mean, I don't think that four years of Biden is going to fix anything.
	I think it's just going to exacerbate the problems.
	No, of course not.
	Yeah, of course, right?
	But this is the thing.
	So when it came down to like, right, we're going to confirm Biden today and then we're going to swear him in on the 20th or whatever.
	It's like...
	I mean, like, you are living in a fantasy world if you think that Biden is going to be a president with 50% of the country thinking that he stole the election.
	Whether you think the election was stolen or not, it doesn't matter.
	It's the perception in their minds.
	If they think it, they're going to act on it.
	And it's that, you know, like France was saying, the narratives, the narratives that people hold in their minds dictate all of their actions.
	And so it's like, you know, there is no...
	There's no way of moving forward, in my opinion, until the Democrats come to the table on the legitimate issues the Republicans have raised and actually sit down and in a detailed manner and an open manner address the points that have been made.
	And I'm happy for the Democrats to say, well, we want that same right from the Republicans.
	I agree.
	If you guys have got some problem with X, Y, or Z, then the Republicans are duty-bound to sit down with you and listen to your concerns to bring everything back together.
	But I just can't see it happening.
	I just can't see Biden doing anything of I mean, what about this then?
	So, I think when I said Joe Biden will be the next president of the United States, you nodded.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, I think that Trump has been defeated at this point.
	I just want to be clear, because there are people like, no!
	I'm not happy.
	I support Trump.
	I would have voted for him if I'd lived in the United States, and I'm sure I did a fair amount of activism on the internet for him.
	So I'm a Trump supporter.
	I've got my MAGA hat and stuff like this.
	But I think you've got to be realistic about what's happened.
	The way that the pieces are moving on the chessboard, it looks like Biden's going to become the next president.
	Right.
	So yeah.
	Okay, so the reason I ask you that is just to set up the next question, which is, if he's going to become the next president on the 20th of January, which I think it's clear that he will be, then what you and I are really talking about is the same thing, which is you're talking about...
	The allegations that have been made being properly investigated.
	I'm fully down for that.
	And the reason I'm fully down for that is not only that that investigation needs to happen, but actually the mistakes that have been made and the flaws in the systems and the various shenanigans that may have gone on, they need to never happen again.
	This is what happened after Florida with Bush versus Gore.
	People woke up to the realization that The world came very close to a very, very bad place.
	And they started looking to fix those things.
	And they need that sort of day of reckoning now as well.
	So I actually think, given that you understand that Biden will be the next president, we're actually on the same page, which is what you're saying is, in order for the MAGA people to feel comfortable about what's happened, there needs to be a full and proper investigation of everything.
	And I'm completely on board with that.
	I think that's very, very important.
	I find it weird that Joe Biden himself isn't demanding such a thing, because it seems to me that that kind of transparency would be the only way of persuading the MAGA voters over, right?
	Like, if you say, well, it was a perfect election, there was no problem, and the MAGA voters are completely persuaded the other way, then you need to start, like, opening up and showing them and, you know, having these investigations, as you say, you know.
	But I just, I can't see it happening.
	And so I'm really quite...
	I don't think it's going to get any better, man.
	I think we're going to start seeing an uptick in domestic terrorism, and then some kind of civic war where the two factions recognize themselves as enemies.
	So if a group of leftists are in a cafe or something, and they see a group of people with MAGA hats walking by, I think they'll start attacking each other.
	Start throwing things at each other, you know, and this kind of social war will start escalating.
	And Biden will just be not seen as legitimate by half the country.
	And so that's, I mean, that's really bad, you know.
	I think the most important thing, though, Carl, is if they do this, that they're socially distanced while doing it.
	Well, only the Democrats are going to do that.
	You know, the MAGA guys aren't even wearing masks.
	Yeah, stay at home, save lives, protect.
	They need to protect the NHS, mate.
	What's going on?
	They don't even have an NHS to protect.
	Yeah.
	Protect Obamacare.
	Protect Obamacare, there you go.
	There's a divisive slogan for you.
	Right, well...
	Oh, sorry, go on.
	No, but I think the point that you raise is very, very real and very worrying.
	And I'm in the position now where I think that is inevitable.
	I think it's inevitable because...
	In order for us to heal, there needs to be the spirit of reconciliation.
	There needs to be a humility where you accept that your side hasn't been perfect, that you have made mistakes, but also the other side has, and you are prepared to hold your hands up, meet in the middle, Coming back again to what you said, that there needs to be an exchange.
	And I can't see that happening.
	I think people are too entrenched.
	I think people are too angry.
	The right are too angry with what is happening.
	They feel that they have been cheated.
	The left are too focused on their moral purity and the fact that they are on the right side of history.
	And as a result of that, they are never going to meet in the middle.
	Yeah.
	Well, and this is why I've been saying, look, my view is that these conversations that we're having are important.
	But another part of it is I think people who are on the right need to start saying to their audience, they need to stop being afraid of their audience.
	Because that's a reality for people who talk about this stuff as you do, as we do, etc.
	If you have people in your audience who are pro-Trump, you have to start talking about how this gets healed.
	Because if we just sit here and talk about how civil war is inevitable, well that just encourages people to go down that line.
	I don't think it's inevitable.
	I don't think it's a responsible thing to do.
	And I'm saying to anyone who follows me, don't go down this path.
	We need to retain democracy.
	And violence is not the answer.
	Storming the Capitol is not the answer.
	And I hope that as many, many people – look, people were saying yesterday that all these people are actually not MAGA people.
	They're Antifa people.
	Yeah, that's an ultra.
	And then Andy Ngo, who is the world's foremost expert on Antifa, came out and said that's nonsense, right?
	But people are clinging to all this stuff, and enough people who have an audience need to come out and call it out for what it is, which is not true, right?
	That has to happen as well.
	We have to recognize there's a level of responsibility we have.
	I posted on my parlor yesterday something to the effect of I haven't seen any convincing evidence that Antifa was meaningfully involved with anything that happened yesterday because I just don't.
	I don't think you need that to explain it.
	I think that there's adequate explanation in the Trump supporters feeling so marginalized and so beaten down by what they perceive to have happened that they have reacted in this way and they've escalated to now the point where the radical left have arrived at.
	And I completely agree with you.
	I think that both sides need to sit down and have an honest conversation on the merits of what they both are asking for and what they're both demanding, and actually try and see things through the other guy's eyes.
	But that's not happening with the left to the MAGA, and that's not happening from the MAGA to the left.
	And so, I mean, I don't want...
	I'm not an advocate of civil war or anything.
	No, I wasn't saying you were.
	No, no, no, I know, I know.
	But I am a realist like Francis.
	You know, it looks bad.
	Francis is not a realist, mate.
	He's a pessimist.
	Do you know how happy he is about everything that's been happening in 2020?
	He calls himself Fostadamus now.
	Do you know how annoying that is?
	Francis, I'm the same man.
	In the office yesterday, all these guys were like, nothing's going to happen.
	I was like, well, I think something's going to happen.
	Well, John wasn't.
	But the rest of them were like, nothing's going to happen.
	I think something's going to happen.
	I think it's going to be bad.
	And it's nice to be proven.
	It's not nice to be proven.
	No, it's really bloody awful.
	It's a very, very depressing place to be.
	Because in order for something to change, you need to see signs that Both sides want a reconciliation.
	That's the fundamental crux of it.
	Both sides need to want a reconciliation.
	But they don't.
	So it's going to continue.
	And until both sides and the main players and the leaders in this say, we want a reconciliation, we want to heal America, we want a united America, Then we're never going to move forward.
	But that is happening.
	I mean, as I said to you, Vice President Pence, Mitch McConnell, Dan Crenshaw, all the big players, Lindsey Graham, these are all the people that have been supporting Donald Trump up to this point, right?
	They're all coming out.
	So Pence, yes.
	Crenshaw, yes.
	Mitch McConnell and Crenshaw and Mitch McConnell are kind of...
	Not really Trump supporters.
	I think they just went wrong with Trump because they had the energy.
	Sure, sure, sure.
	But my point is, Francis is talking about the big players on both sides.
	I mean, those are the big players on both sides, right?
	Look at Douglas Murray, wrote a piece in The Spectator yesterday talking about how this was Trump's responsibility and he needs to concede and leave the stage.
	Douglas Murray is the most sensible right of center commentator that I personally know, right?
	Douglas Murray is not a shill.
	He's not like some kind of, you know, paid leftist or whatever people love to say on YouTube comments or whatever, right?
	So when people like that are coming out and going, come on, everybody needs to calm down here, you have to listen to that and you have to be sensible about it.
	That's my opinion.
	A lot of people would disagree with it, but that's the beauty of the free speech that we still have for another two days.
	Yeah, and that's fine, obviously.
	But I guess the count's question that raises itself then is, okay, what's Joe Biden going to do for the MAGA folk?
	How's he going to reconcile them?
	What's he offering them to come on board?
	And, I mean, he seems to be, like, you know, he seems to be just returning to the neoliberal status quo that got us in this place in the first place.
	He's pro-immigration, pro-exporting businesses out to China and places like that.
	He's obviously corrupt.
	He's obviously corrupt.
	He said he's going to be abandoning the America first, you know, interests of Trump.
	And it's like, why would, like, the MAGA folk...
	You said something interesting earlier in the conversation.
	If this was in Russia, I wouldn't be surprised.
	It's just another day, right?
	But in America, there's an expectation that's been placed on them.
	You've got a higher expectation for the United States.
	And this expectation is on the backs of the MAGA supporters as far as they're concerned.
	They view themselves as the people carrying that expectation, and they're the ones who prop it up, and they feel like they've been lied to.
	And so everyone's looking at them going, well, you should be acting better, even though we're not going to act that way.
	And so it doesn't seem fair.
	It seems like they're being held to a standard that other people aren't being held to.
	Well, that's true.
	And they're not being listened to.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	This is why I said to you, I think a full and thorough investigation is needed.
	Probably it would have to be bipartisan at this point for anyone to believe it.
	You would have to have people involved in it from both sides.
	You have to do that.
	If you're Joe Biden and you don't do that, I mean, you are going to start some serious trouble.
	Do you think he's going to do it?
	I think he may do it.
	I think the seriousness of this is such that he may transcend his natural inclination to go, I've got the Senate, I've got the House, I've got the presidency, let's just ram all our radical leftist crap down everybody's throats.
	I think he may, if it was AOC, I don't think she'd be like that.
	But Biden still, I think, may have a little bit of that I don't know.
	We'll find out.
	I hope he does, because I'm wrong.
	Let's be honest.
	We're all fucked, aren't we?
	Yeah, I really think so.
	And I find it difficult to be able to persuade the MAGA supporters that the burden isn't on their shoulders and that a double standard isn't being applied to them.
	It is being applied to them.
	Yeah, it is.
	It is being applied.
	But you have to say, as I say to them, there's a double standard, but democracy is more important.
	The future of the West is more important than your double standards.
	You haven't been treated fairly for four years, and it is unfair.
	It is unfair.
	Then the question I think rises is, when will they be treated fairly?
	It's a good question.
	And if the answer is, we can't tell you, why shouldn't they revolt?
	Because then you end up in civil war.
	But they're looking at a future of nothing but oppression.
	Not necessarily.
	I don't think that will happen.
	Well, they're being treated unfairly, aren't they?
	They have been treated unfairly.
	I personally am not very optimistic about Biden treating them fairly.
	I actually don't think Biden is going to have a bipartisan investigation.
	I'm not saying that the media are suddenly going to become fair overnight.
	What I'm saying is we can agree on that there needs to be a full and thorough investigation that needs to be bipartisan.
	I agree.
	And the systems that were in place need to be changed so that this never happens in another election again.
	So to me, that would be addressing the unfairness that people have complained about in this election.
	If indeed it did happen, we will have to see as a result of that investigation.
	So in my view, that needs to happen, and that would go some way to addressing that.
	Is the world going to become fair overnight?
	I don't think so.
	No, no, of course.
	Of course.
	I don't think it's going to be fair of night.
	And I don't think the MAGA folk expect that.
	But, like, I think the reason that Trump and Brexit happened is because these people who felt that they were being treated unfairly were looking into the future and looking for a light at the end of the tunnel, and they can't see one.
	And I'm just thinking, okay, so I'm looking at the next four years.
	Where's the light at the end of the tunnel?
	Do I think that Joe Biden is going to have this bipartisan investigation and then actually, with the particular examples where there's clearly a problem, do we think that Joe Biden's going to bring those people to justice?
	I can't see it.
	I just can't see it.
	And if the MAGA folk can't see it either, which I don't think they can, then...
	I mean, I don't know what to do.
	You've got to give it a chance, Kyle.
	You can't prejudge it.
	I agree.
	I'm all for giving it a chance.
	And like yourself, I'm totally pro-democracy.
	I want everyone to come together.
	But I just don't see how I can persuade people that that will happen.
	You don't need to persuade them that that will happen.
	I think what you need to persuade people is to give it a chance to happen and then see what happens.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Right.
	So we've gone over the hour.
	So what I'll do is I'll let you chaps go because we're going to have a load of super chats to answer.
	And I'll be fighting in your corner.
	That's going to be fun.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, I don't...
	Do you guys want to stay while we do them?
	I mean...
	I don't mind.
	We can do either or not.
	What time is it?
	Two o'clock.
	If we have another thing, Anton...
	We've got something of four, so yeah, we've got time.
	Yeah, okay.
	John, can we do that?
	This was a bit of an ad hoc setup.
	It's up to you guys.
	We can jump off if you want.
	I don't mind either way.
	It's really about whether John can get them up so I can read them out.
	Okay.
	Okay, I think we can do it.
	I don't know whether you can see me or not, though, so...
	Right, where...
	Oh, God.
	There are going to be loads, and there are going to be loads of angry ones now.
	We're all in such trouble.
	Okay, there are a lot.
	Right, okay.
	So we'll try and do as many as we can, chaps.
	If we don't, just for the audience, if we don't get to yours, I'm really sorry.
	Right, so my name's Dave says, if Trump is the emperor, then Pence is Horace, and I hope that doesn't make Alex Jones Lorgard.
	That's a nerdy Warhammer 40,000 reference.
	Alex Alexandru, look where their daggers pierced his noble flesh and stained his mantle crimson.
	Yeah, that's a Shakespeare...
	Hey, you get some seriously sophisticated super chats.
	We do, we do.
	Is that Julius Caesar?
	It is.
	Mate, you've got people quoting Shakespeare.
	Yeah, we've got...
	People telling us that, you know, I'm a fat leftist cuck.
	Yeah, we get Shakespeare.
	I don't know how we've done it.
	We've managed to cultivate a rather intelligent audience.
	They must all be laughing at us or something.
	Liam Philp says, who's going to seriously explain Tier 5 to Assange if they free him?
	Come on, son, back indoors like everyone else.
	Well, lockdown is one thing we didn't talk about, yeah.
	Yeah, I know.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, I'm happy to do another one of these.
	This is really good.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Apparently there's also a defund the NHS protest at eight o'clock tonight.
	Yeah.
	God, I'm not even getting into it.
	Just, I support our noble Tik Tokers.
	Mute stream says all negativity is making me sick.
	Hashtag team Hugo.
	That's an internal joke.
	Rational Redneck says, I find it odd that the senators just happened to have gas masks under their seats when the Capitol building was breached.
	It could be normal for them to keep gas masks there.
	I just find it odd.
	I think these things are normal.
	I saw the pictures of the gas masks and they were protecting against all kinds of hazards.
	So it's probably just something they have there.
	Tobin Russell says, if the government fears the people, there's liberty.
	Mr.
	Mayo says, Civil War II, Revenge of the Boogaloo.
	Brian Alleman says, preemptive, disavowal, just to be safe.
	Yeah, definitely.
	Andreas E has sent us something in Russian, but I can't speak Cyrillic.
	Can you pull it up on the screen?
	I'll read it.
	Yeah, can you do that, John?
	It's probably saying Francis is a fat leftist cuck, but I'll read it.
	Oh, it says, Hi Kostya.
	Yeah.
	There you go.
	Gideon says, I'm concerned about the response to the riots by the establishment.
	History has shown the demonstrations of power that don't immediately remove those in power lead to severe backlash by those still in power.
	What kind of backlash do you think there's going to be against the Trump supporters?
	I don't know, man, but I think they would be very wise not to overreact.
	Yeah.
	It would be very wise not to overreact to this.
	The last thing you want in this situation is to knee-jerk and to make people feel even more unfairly treated, let's say.
	The people who broke laws should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, absolutely.
	But when you've let other people riot for six months nonstop and burn down cities and whatever, you can't then have a massive crackdown.
	On everybody in any way connected to this.
	So I think they need to deal with the people who legitimately broke the law and be very sensible and sensitive to everybody else, I think.
	That would be the spirit of healing, right?
	That would be the spirit of healing.
	Hopefully that happens.
	Yeah, I think that's a really sensible position.
	Especially, like, again, I really do think that the actual damage done has been a bit overblown here because it just seemed like idiots from the internet wandering around the Senate chamber.
	You know, they weren't burning stuff or anything like that.
	They just seemed to be taking selfies.
	So, like, you know, they're wrong to have done it, obviously, but it's not that, you know, millions in property damage has been done or something like that.
	So anyway, um, uh, Vittely, uh, the time, Vitaly, yeah.
	Hi, Carl.
	Ask the trigonometry folks why they hypocritically refused to debate the alt-right a while back, smearing them instead like true leftists.
	Well, how do you answer that charge?
	Go, Francis.
	Why did we not debate...
	Because we're flat leftist cugs, we told you.
	Yeah.
	Because what they tried to do was intimidate us and force us into debating them and essentially trying to bully us.
	And I don't care who you are or what your position is, we don't bow down to bullies.
	Very simple.
	Very good answer.
	Raptor10001 says, how would you respond to someone who cites the long term effects that some experiences from COVID in conjunction with the death rate as a reason to aggressively slow the spread of the virus?
	I assume that's aimed at me, unless you guys have got any thoughts on that.
	Karl, sorry, I missed that.
	Say that again, mate.
	How would you respond to someone who cites the long-term effects that some experience from the COVID-19 virus as a reason to aggressively slow the spread of the virus?
	I guess I would answer, how do we slow the spread of the virus?
	Oh, well, my answer would be that I remember in 2017, I woke up with a cough and a high fever for about six weeks.
	I literally couldn't get out of bed.
	I felt terrible.
	I lost my sense of smell.
	I lost my sense of taste, which is literally the worst thing that I've ever experienced.
	I've broken bones, had my bones sticking out of my arm, all that stuff.
	Losing your sense of taste is way worse than that.
	It was horrific.
	And I didn't recover from that for about three months.
	So the idea that the coronavirus is somehow this exclusive virus that has long-term consequences when flu and other things don't, it's just a misnomer.
	I think they all have long-term consequences.
	Look, maybe the coronavirus one is worse.
	But I am all down for saying COVID is...
	A big problem.
	It's killing people, elderly people, blah, blah, blah.
	I'm just not sure the lockdowns prevent it from spreading.
	So even if the virus is a really bad thing that really needs to be addressed in the best way that we can, doing the wrong thing in response doesn't seem to me to be a sensible, rational, reasonable solution.
	And I think one of the key points as well, and there's a very interesting interview with Neil Ferguson in the Sunday Times, where he said that they didn't think lockdown was possible until they saw China do it and saw the way they implemented it, and then as a result of that, decided to implement it over here.
	Well, if it's good enough for China...
	Yeah, exactly.
	I mean, that's what you want, isn't it?
	To follow China's lead, because they do things absolutely spot on.
	Let's weld people in their homes for progress.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But I mean, I think you're absolutely right, Constantine.
	It's like, A, I don't think the lockdowns have worked, which is why we're on our third one.
	And B, this seems to me like saying, oh God, I've burnt my hand.
	Well, I better chop it off at the wrist.
	Exactly.
	It's like, okay, but that seems to create more problems than it solves.
	No, that doesn't do anything, does it?
	Yeah, exactly, yeah.
	But, right, Mighty Ninja says, It's strange, if someone tried this in Parliament, they'd have spec ops on them in minutes.
	You'll think the lack of security was intentional.
	Yeah, so one of the interesting points about this is that it seems to have been fairly easy for the protesters to get into the Capitol building.
	What do you guys reckon?
	To me that's just about, actually we were discussing with our producer and I was saying to him this is just a reflection of the fact that unless you have overwhelming police presence a small number of even armed people are not going to stop a wave of protesters because at some point someone has to make the decision and go okay we are prepared to shoot hundreds of people.
	If the ratio is one to a hundred that's the only way you're going to stop people and even if you do that they're just going to run you over and it's going to be an outrage and terrible.
	I'm not all that suspicious about it, to be honest.
	I just think they didn't have riot police there for some reason.
	Maybe they weren't anticipating that.
	Maybe they just were very badly prepared.
	I don't want to say this live on air because I saw something about the mayor of D.C. telling police to stand down.
	Okay, well, we'll talk about it off air if you want.
	Yeah, I don't know what happened there.
	I'm not particularly suspicious, would be my answer to that.
	Possible pilot deviation says, yesterday was employers stopping by to check on their employees.
	Right, yeah, so the idea that the Americans have a right to revolt and to storm the Capitol building.
	And to be honest with you, again, if it was any other country being like, oh no, I can't believe the people are rising up in revolution, I'd be like, yeah, okay, that's bad.
	But I mean, America kind of was founded on the idea.
	It is part of the moral and intellectual principle of the United States, that this is actually something that's within the power of the people.
	So, again, I do think it's being blown out of proportion.
	Tia Fullspark says, Norwegian money to our British heroes.
	The capital situation is a clusterfrik that has ruined Trump's chances for re-election.
	Mobs are wrong.
	Yeah, I think there's probably some truth to that, unfortunately.
	Evan Mishanek says, Predictions.
	Free speech is the first to go, then the Second Amendment.
	Supreme Court is packed, and the Ministry of Love is established.
	Off to the gulags.
	What do you reckon, Francis?
	Off to the gulags?
	Mate, you'd lose a lot of weight in the gulags.
	It'd be good for you.
	Yeah, it would be.
	Yeah, I'd get ripped.
	Um...
	To be honest with you, I think the age of free speech online is dead.
	It's the way it is.
	And what we're seeing now is the dying embers of it.
	And I think more and more of us will be forced off.
	And eventually we've got to find our own platforms, find our own ways around Google, trying to find ways to optimize that so that people can find us.
	And you're going to see a splintering because the days of big tech supporting and sharing our own views are sadly gone.
	Wow.
	Paul Wilkinson says, how can the American people ever have faith in the electoral system again after such blatant fraud?
	All we know now is violence wins.
	We covered that during the podcast, so I rehashed the discussion.
	Stephen Amore says, Antifa wants to do the same and worse.
	They deny the USA. That's true.
	Antifa hate the USA. Well, we recorded an interview with Andy Ngo literally a few days ago talking about Antifa.
	So we're not at all unaware of that.
	But there's no reason for the right to get onto the same path.
	Yeah, I mean, this is the, you know, spend too long fighting monsters and become the monster yourself.
	If you're no different to the monster, then why should anyone be sympathetic for your cause?
	Astronaut Kitty says, I was watching the live stream as it happened.
	The White House doors opened and let them in.
	It was a trap.
	The best security money can buy at the Capitol too.
	Convenient that they were let in.
	I don't know what a thanatocracy is.
	Thanos?
	Is that something to do with one of those nerdy things?
	I don't know.
	The protesters were just there to tell Capitol Hill to bring out your debt.
	Richard Enormous says, Antifa angry because they accomplished much less despite corporate and political backing.
	Oof.
	Shade thrown.
	Christopher Biker says, BS in America.
	The people are not heard by those in power.
	Those in power can be disposed.
	That's how we have always been, so why the surprise?
	Pelosi's eyebrow says, Lotus Eater Saving Face Keck.
	Well, we're on YouTube.
	Finally, we've got to the juicy stuff.
	Yeah, you literally know that there is an editorial policy on YouTube, despite the fact they shouldn't have one because of Section 230.
	And there are only so many things that we can say.
	But Stuart McLean says, This is just the beginning.
	It's exposed the rhinos.
	Your guests are sorely uninformed.
	75 million people still back Trump.
	I hear you, brother.
	One Doe says, Podcasting Avengers crossover?
	Well done.
	Krizzle says, When you bend reality non-stop with lies and slander, it snaps back violently.
	The fault lies almost entirely with those denying that which is blatant.
	James Reid says, stop pretending to disavow and trying to be PC. This conversation is why the left will destroy you.
	Pathetic.
	Sorry, James.
	I know.
	I told you I'm in so much trouble.
	But I don't want violence.
	I never have.
	I've always been against political violence.
	Gold818 says, with Trump winning Texas by only 2% and unchecked election fraud, do you think Trump will be the last Republican president for the next 24 years, or do you think the Republican Party will become a shell of its former self?
	I'll answer that, because I think that what you won't see is a MAGA president again.
	You'll see Republican presidents, but they'll be the sort of neoliberal, neocon consensus that they want to return to.
	The sort of Bush-Clinton sort of consensus.
	But, I mean, I think that things will get worse because of that.
	Possible pilot deviation.
	Trigonometry working hard to remind me why I unsubscribe from their channel.
	Good to see you again, mate.
	The top lobster.
	Send us a super chat, mate.
	Don't send it to Carl.
	Tell us how much you hate us, but give us money.
	Drop by.
	Tell us we're cucks.
	The top lobster.
	What if the election had been stolen and all other means had been exhausted?
	Well, that's the kind of end point we came to earlier.
	Bastia says, I'm not sure Trump's legacy is destroyed.
	Am I wrong?
	You know, I think that after four years of Joe Biden, Trump's going to look absolutely golden by comparison.
	And I also think that in like 20 years, a sort of JFK-style documentary will come out and redeem Trump's memory.
	But that's for 20 years in the future, isn't it?
	Carl, shall I throw a firebomb into the works here, or have we had enough of those?
	No, no, go on, that'll be fun.
	This is a hot take, and I'm not saying I in any way approve of this, but I am almost certain that, I mean, Trump has come out and said he will do a smooth transition.
	Yes, he has, yeah.
	But if he hadn't done that, or if in some ways he goes back on that in the next couple of days, they will put him in jail.
	I'm telling you that now.
	If he does not concede and if he does not engage with the peaceful transition, I'm not saying I necessarily approve of this, but they will throw the book at him when, in fact, I think most people would rather he just went away quietly.
	But they will do that if he doesn't hand over power.
	I'm guaranteeing you that.
	And you agree clearly.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	I totally agree.
	I mean, I think that...
	I don't think Biden will go after Trump because he said that he doesn't plan to because it's kind of understood that the incoming president doesn't go after the outgoing president and it's been a consistent thing in America.
	But I do think that if Trump is to cause more trouble, then they will.
	Yeah.
	And obviously, I don't want to see that either.
	Anyway, Mr.
	Crosshaven says, Rip the USA. Say hello to the GRA, the Great Reset of America.
	I'm not even American and I'm saddened by its downfall.
	Invoke martial law, now King Trump for life.
	Disavow.
	I don't think that's going to happen.
	I think Trump's conceded, and I think it will be President Biden, which will probably mean President Harris.
	Alexander Cross says, This has been an exercise in poor planning and bad ideas.
	All sides seem to have reacted to the fire by whipping out gasoline.
	That's a good point.
	It's a very good point.
	Yeah, Mr.
	Mayo, so they can rob us, destroy our livelihoods, destroy our system, and rig it so they can monopolise power and rule us, what other recourse do we have?
	We'll just leave that hanging in the air.
	We've talked about it.
	Yeah, we talked about it earlier.
	Salvador Esperanza says, much support for you, Carl, but trigonometry shows they're typical European intellectuals that know absolutely nothing about America.
	Mate, I'm done with an intellectual!
	You're an intellectual now!
	Yeah!
	My former teachers would be horrified.
	Thank you very much, Esperanza.
	It's nice to be upgraded though, isn't it?
	Yeah, it is.
	Leftist cut to intellectual.
	Yeah, you're moving up in the world.
	Yeah, mate.
	European intellectual as well, mate.
	Yeah.
	That's nothing to be proud of, to be honest.
	Latin American intellectual doesn't sound nearly as good, does it?
	Let's be honest.
	Yeah, but like we were saying, you know, the whole point of...
	I mean, the point of any conversation, really, I think, is to find common ground with anything you're talking about.
	And people have got to remember that, you know, if you're talking to people who don't necessarily agree with you, I mean, even if I were to say, all right, okay, the hardcore MAGA position is 100% true, even if I thought that, it wouldn't be worth prosecuting it as stridently as possible, because no common ground will be found then.
	It will just be viewed as an attack, you know?
	Obviously, I'm friends with you guys.
	I don't want to attack you.
	So even if we disagree on something, I would like to respectfully disagree rather than yell at each other.
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	I mean, I would contest the claim that the point of conversations is to reach agreement.
	The point is to destroy people with facts and logic.
	Well, touche.
	I'm only joking, mate.
	I actually have really enjoyed this conversation.
	I think, as I said, going forward, this sort of respectful disagreement is the way these conversations need to be had.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Zach Redopiller says, Who cares if an illegitimate institution considers you illegitimate?
	Violence has been rewarded, so violence is what you'll get.
	Public sentiment yields to overwhelming violence.
	This will escalate.
	I just want to say that that's not an endorsement.
	I think that's just a prediction and a description.
	I don't think Zach is celebrating these things.
	I think he's making the same kind of prediction that me and Francis were making, in fact.
	I think this is going to escalate as well.
	I don't think Biden's going to do the necessary things that are required to bring the MAGA group back to the table, and so I think that we're going to see things getting worse.
	Winter Forest Kirin says, That's what the left have done.
	That's how Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez came into being.
	Stay Frosty says, please get these people off the podcast, Kyle.
	No.
	Is that what he said?
	Did he say people or did he say something else?
	He may have said something else, but I'm going to translate it into YouTube speak.
	YouTube has editorial policies I have to follow.
	So I'm afraid that I'm bound there.
	But no...
	Can we just say, from everyone at Chigonometry, thank you for using non-gendered language.
	That's true.
	That is very, very progressive and considerative, Steve Frost.
	We appreciate it.
	But no, no, I think it's important that we have conversations with people who disagree.
	And I just want to say, we had this booked, like, last year.
	We didn't even know that this was going to happen.
	It was just...
	Today was when you guys were going to come on.
	And otherwise, I'm sure we've been talking about, you know, gender pronouns or something.
	But this all kicked off.
	And I didn't want to cancel or anything like that, you know.
	So it's just, I think it's been really interesting to have, like, the two sides of the discussion meet in a reasonable forum and have a reasonable discussion.
	And by the way, you should know that in our world, comedy, creative world, whatever, we are Sargon.
	No, we're not.
	We're Nazis.
	Like, we are, like, the evil Nazi racists who talk to the...
	Like, the fact that we've even had Carl on our show, that's it.
	Like, we're evil.
	So I think it's important to have these conversations.
	I don't think you'd be able to have this conversation in a meaningful way with an Ash Sarkar or an Owen Jones.
	Totally agree.
	But we are, I think, sensible enough that we can have it.
	But I would never lump you guys in with those people in the same category.
	I mean, you're obviously not like them, you know?
	And this is the thing.
	I consider myself to be a reasonable person.
	I think I can hold reasonable conversations, and I think you can too.
	And I think that's the value, is watching intelligent, articulate people, like intellectuals like Francis, come to the table and have a reasonable discussion, even if it ends in disagreement.
	Yeah.
	So not so stealthy yet, he says, if the Blue Cathedral theory is true, then Trump supporters were barbarians profaning a high holy ceremony.
	The reprisal may be swift and terrible.
	So there's a theory on the right that...
	It's called The Cathedral.
	And it suggests that the left isn't in conspiracy with itself.
	And it's not conspiracies.
	It's the movement that is the left has a particular set of values.
	And it's the values that make the whole thing move in tandem.
	And I think it's a fairly good representation of what's happening, actually.
	But yeah, I think the reprisal, as we talked earlier, it could be swift and it could be bad.
	Okay, I'm just going to skip the insult ones, okay?
	Because I do not want us to be insulting guests.
	He's going to run out of Super Chats very quickly, isn't he?
	2,984 of them were all insults.
	I will, but I'll just say thank you, Slowerboga.
	And MuteStream, the chat is really crazy right now.
	Yeah, this is probably back near the beginning of the conversation.
	Yeah, I imagine they are.
	Matthew Hammond says, it was interesting that burning private property in Washington, D.C. and a Bernie guy shooting a baseball field could not unify Congress, but this could.
	Yeah, this is the thing, like, the violence that's been done by Black Lives Matter has been massively disproportionate compared to what happened yesterday.
	I mean, like, the protesters didn't kill anyone yesterday, whereas in the George Floyd riots, 19 people have died.
	Like, the shooting he's talking about with Steve Scalise in 2017, he was a judge.
	You know, the violence has been really astonishing from the left, and this is being blown way out of proportion, in my opinion.
	But anyway...
	Stetson's Gold says, the presidency is nothing to be sniffed at.
	Old man noises intensify.
	Harry, are you guys pleased with the Biden win?
	No.
	God, no.
	Yeah, no one wants Biden.
	No.
	But, you see, both Francis and I would have voted for Donald Trump, very reluctantly, but we would have voted for him over Joe Biden.
	So, yeah, I'm not happy about Biden winning, but just what's happening yesterday has nothing to do with that, you know.
	Where am I? Harry the Sublime Human...
	Harry the Human Substitute, sorry.
	If Trump wins, he will be glorified like he did nothing wrong like Linco, but if he loses, it might lead to the Republican Party being outlawed.
	I think that's...
	I don't think that's going to happen.
	I think that's beyond the realm of possibility, I think.
	Solar Dragon.
	Never forget the day that Carl got kippered.
	That fish went flying.
	Yeah, but I blocked it like I'm a ninja.
	I was in the Matrix.
	Psh!
	Did someone throw a kipper at you?
	Yeah, yeah, but I got good reactions, so I was just like, out of the air.
	Steve says, I was on the ground in DC yesterday.
	No one called for violence.
	There was Antifa, Horn Guy, 100% Antifa.
	Videos are about to come out.
	BLM influencers.
	Well, if there's evidence to prove it, then I'm happy to accept the evidence, but I haven't seen any yet.
	Um...
	Oh, actually, can you...
	Okay, so Jack Posobiec has a video on his Twitter feed.
	Go up a second.
	You can hear the crowd booing and demanding this person stop breaking the window at the Capitol in this video.
	I mean, that's all well and good, but they still did march in there and wander around taking photos.
	So, I mean, I guess we'll find out when all of the evidence comes out about what really properly happened.
	But I haven't seen anything that persuades me that Antifa were involved yet.
	But, I mean, if there is, I'm happy to accept it, like I'm sure everyone else is.
	Kevin Malolany says, Antifa attacked a courthouse in Portland last night too.
	Yes, that's true.
	Andy Ngo was reporting on the Antifa attack on the courthouse, but of course it got overshadowed by the events in Washington, D.C. But again, this is nothing remarkable.
	State and federal buildings being attacked by protesters is absolutely par for the course, unfortunately.
	Nope Nopeman says Trump supporters were viewed as weak, but now they've bared their teeth.
	Politicians should fear the people.
	Their suppression is backfiring.
	Well, this is what you were saying, Constantine.
	They really should take perspective with this, right?
	Alexander Cross says his concession means he's decided that he will not cross that Rubicon.
	Do you agree?
	Yeah, I think so.
	I hope so.
	And the thing is, I remember years ago saying to people, because I'd watched a lot of Trump's speeches, listened to him talking about things and what he was trying to do, right?
	And I said back then, look, Trump is not a dictator.
	Trump is not Caesar.
	He is not going to install some dictatorship.
	He's not a fascist.
	And all these leftists were like, yes, he is.
	And now that the opportunity has presented itself, he's conceded.
	So, you know, I stand by what I said.
	Trump is actually a reformer.
	Possible pilot deviation.
	When Pelosi's office was stormed, my father loved it.
	The people in D.C. are only a fraction of the hate.
	Moulin Labe, please, we want it.
	Yeah, this is the thing, though.
	How can these people ever come to terms with people like Pelosi who demonize them?
	You know, Hillary Clinton was like the basket of deplorables.
	Biden said many similar things.
	Pelosi has been very, very, you know, all of them, all of the Democrat leadership have been Very strident when it comes to the MAGA supporters.
	So I don't know what the options are.
	Dean Loveday.
	The Second Amendment is the right to bear arms against a tyrannical government.
	It's both morally right and constitutional to oppose Biden by force.
	Calm down.
	We're not suggesting anyone uprisers here.
	We're having a conversation.
	Tobin Russell says, Question.
	If the election was stolen, lawful procedures have been prevented from being followed.
	What has left for us to get justice?
	We covered that earlier, so we'll refer you back to that part of the conversation.
	Can we go up a bit?
	Peter North.
	Where do I know that name from?
	Oh, you've given yourself away, mate.
	Oh, it's the porn star.
	No, I'm sure it's not the actual porn star.
	You know, I thought we were in the presence of greatness.
	Four years of bullying.
	Extracurricular hobbies, Carl.
	Hey, well, sorry, sorry.
	Which one of you is going to cast the first stone and say they don't watch porn?
	Oh, right.
	Silence.
	Yeah, I thought so.
	Four years of bullying, four years of riots, four years of investigation, four years of intimidation.
	You get what you deserve.
	Yeah, I mean, we've covered this.
	The left has been acting unacceptably for the last four years.
	Big Gun Brother says, from what I've seen, the protesters didn't really vandalise anything outside of a mean note left on Pelosi's desk and a few papers thrown around.
	Yeah, well, that's what I was saying.
	I think it's been blown out of proportion.
	Vitaly says, if Biden is sworn in, the boog kicks off.
	I'm not going to read out the insults, though, chaps.
	Not Nate says, thanks for the Dyslexic August Company plug from Callum.
	I'm curious if you've seen Skeptics Conspiracy videos or Chris Reagan's Snark Tank.
	I like skeptics conspiracy videos because I love conspiracy videos like Bigfoot videos and stuff like that.
	And looking back at it, I remember when YouTube platformed all these things going, oh, they're making people believe crazy stuff.
	And it's like, yeah, but it was better than what's happening now, isn't it?
	I'd rather people be trying to storm Roswell or something than storm the Capitol building.
	Like, my God.
	But, you know, I like conspiracy videos.
	And I think skeptics ones have been fun.
	I haven't watched the Snark Tank, though, so I don't know what that's like.
	Guitar operator says, Yeah, so that's a good question.
	How competently do you think this is being handled?
	Well, this is probably my biggest reason for not believing in most conspiracy theories about anything is that I have been face to face with government machinery and large organizations enough that I know they're never competent enough to pull anything off.
	The truth is, we were chatting in studio today, we don't know where the battle lines are.
	You, us, everyone is still making their mind up really about it.
	So I don't think anyone knows what exactly position they should be taking, which is great because that means you get to hear what people actually think for a change, which is nice.
	Yeah, when there's no narrative.
	When the narratives are being shaped, then those of us who are talking about it are literally shaping the narratives from both sides.
	We'll have to see.
	I don't think it is being handled in any way at the moment, really.
	We have to see how this one plays out.
	What do you think?
	I think that the narratives are being shaped and formed due to the partisan nature of American media.
	Fox are creating their narrative.
	NBC are going to create theirs.
	And that is going to flourish and it's going to spread and all the rest of it.
	But we're seeing the narratives being created literally as we speak.
	Yeah.
	Nobody says, how can one reconcile standing by principles when they see the opposition as being unscrupulous and entirely without them?
	Why follow any rules?
	What do you teach your son, Carl?
	Well, I mean, I obviously teach him to follow the rules because I'm the dad and they're my rules.
	What if the other person he's in a scuffle with, he doesn't follow the rules?
	Oh, I mean, well, it depends.
	I mean, if some kid was to punch my son, I'd tell my son to defend himself.
	Sure.
	What if someone else was stealing money from the sweet shop?
	Well, I'd tell them to tell the teacher.
	But if the teacher then said, shut up and go away, I would have to go and talk to the teacher myself.
	Right.
	But you wouldn't teach your son to do the same thing, right?
	Sorry?
	You wouldn't teach your son to steal from the sweet shop just because someone else is there?
	No, no.
	Of course.
	Of course.
	Right.
	That's all I'm saying.
	But I think the point they're making there is why play the game?
	And then we get into the separation and bifurcation of the political life of the United States.
	But this is why I was emphasizing the point of like, look at the very small individual cases.
	where there's obvious procedural anomalies that aren't constitutional.
	They, you know, what the left needs to do, the Democrats need to do, is get those people punished for what they did.
	You know, it doesn't matter.
	I'm not trying to overturn the election when I say that.
	I'm saying if you want, exactly as nobody here says, why follow the rules if they don't have to, you know, and they do have to follow the rules, and therefore those people should be punished, regardless of whether it changes anything.
	Having a full and thorough investigation, right?
	Yeah.
	That's what we're talking about.
	Yeah.
	And I think that is something that can cross all sides of any aisle.
	You know, everyone in all of the political quadrants.
	Yeah, exactly.
	In all of the political quadrants, everyone can be demanding a bipartisan investigation.
	You know, that's definitely something that should be happening.
	We should all be pushing for.
	Profis says...
	Thank you for the donation.
	Moving on.
	I don't want to just read out insults, Chavs.
	I can't do it.
	There's a certain kind of British politeness that one has to have when one invites a guest into their house or onto their show, in this case.
	And I'm not going to be able to just read out insults, but I will thank you for doing it.
	He's managed to monetize left-wing cuckery.
	We need to get some left-wing cucks on our show so that everyone insults them with Super Chat, and we're going to be absolutely minted.
	That's how you do it.
	Okay.
	Clanghampton.
	I won't read that either, just because I don't think YouTube will allow me to read that.
	That's not an insult against you, in fact.
	Well, it's kind of in a sly way, but not directly.
	But YouTube just, I don't think, will let me read that, so I'm not going to.
	Good.
	Aurelianus says, what a pathetic showing.
	Don't play by the rules of people who hate you.
	This is why conservatives always lose.
	Appeal to heaven, get someone better on.
	Well, this is the point of conversation with people you don't agree with, so you get to express your opinions.
	Matai Chirathia says, the object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
	I don't know who that's a quote from, but it's a quote from somebody.
	But it's a good one, yeah.
	Grimbold Knight says, the Republicans have lost the moral edge.
	Part of me hopes that this was Antifa in disguise, smearing their opponents, but I really doubt it.
	It's so upsetting.
	I totally agree.
	I think the strength of the MAGA crew was the moral edge that they had, and I agree that this has definitely blunted that, and that's not good.
	Graham B says, Capital invasion was so un-American.
	Agent provocateur is a French idea.
	I don't think we should call it un-American.
	Revolutions are a very American thing.
	Invading government buildings, you know, they weren't saying that when you were invading the buildings that the king had set up, were you?
	So, you know, it's not un-American.
	Philip Heron says, I don't think Trump should have had that rally yesterday.
	It was never going to benefit him.
	I hope you're all doing well.
	What do you guys reckon?
	Oh, I don't know, man.
	Look, I would never deny someone's right to peacefully organize and protest and speak.
	So people should be entitled to do that.
	But the question is, is it tactically sensible?
	Well, in hindsight...
	I think we can all agree not.
	But I would never want to be out there going.
	People shouldn't be allowed to go out and protest and talk and speak.
	I mean, would I agree with the stuff that he was saying and the way that he was saying it?
	No.
	No, I don't think so.
	I think he needed to have accepted.
	He can call for an investigation, and I completely agree with it.
	He could call for the legal process to be followed, and it was, to the extent that it was.
	And now, my view is we have to play by the rules.
	Right, possible pilot deviation.
	The last comment can take his British pounds and shove them up his...
	Okay.
	Matthew Hammond says, Newt Gingrich had a contract with America in 1994.
	I think we may need another one that focuses on the populist movement.
	Quite possibly.
	Sorry, we've got loads to get through.
	We're coming on 4 o'clock, aren't we?
	3 o'clock.
	So I want to just try and get through a few more quickly.
	Remember when American independence formed through mostly peaceful protests against their British overlords?
	Well, that's what I was saying.
	It's not un-American to revolt against the government.
	Lego Kingdom says, I agree.
	I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Soviet States of America and to the Banana Republic for which it kneels, one nation under dominion with liberty and justice for none.
	See, that's the sort of future that Joe Biden's ushering in.
	Gareth Green for $99.
	Thank you, Gareth.
	When I suggested yesterday that the PM changed course on the lockdown because the Queen told him to, I did not mean to suggest that she made any kind of official demand that he did, just that he went in for his weekly audience, she made her views known and went along.
	Right, okay, well thank you for the clarification.
	Thank you for the amazing super chat.
	I really appreciate it, man.
	Alex Masters says, the MSM got exactly what they wanted.
	A crazy shirtless guy, a body, a confederate flag.
	Now they can virtuously pound MAGA into the dirt.
	Yes, there's definitely going to be what they do.
	Christian says, if the law does not matter, then if the procedure does not matter, if the legitimacy does not matter, then nothing can be allowed to.
	Six semper tyrannis.
	Daryl McCullough says, I agree.
	And I think you guys agree with that as well, right?
	Hmm.
	I don't think he was listening.
	He pulls our face and went...
	Sorry, I was...
	No.
	Sorry, I was no.
	No, sorry, no.
	Well, the BLM riots were much more damaging and killed lots of people, whereas this was not very damaging and didn't kill anyone outside of the protesters themselves.
	Yeah, well the BLM protests obviously ran for a much longer period of time as well.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	But the thing is, I would just go back to what I said at the beginning.
	I think there is a difference between storming Congress, which is the Senate, which is about to certify the results of an election, and looting a target.
	Looting a target is very, very bad.
	This, I think, has a political dimension that is far worse.
	Profis says, the protesters who stormed the Capitol didn't burn the whole thing down or start killing cops.
	Rather, they were let in and then they were violently forced out with four killed.
	Well, I'll check the facts on that because, you know, there's a kind of fog of war that overlays the news stream at the moment and it's hard to be exactly certain.
	But I mean, I do think that there is...
	I mean, I saw videos of them pushing their way past cops and fighting through the cops.
	So I don't know how true that is.
	Papa Moose Man.
	I'll have to check.
	Papa Moose Man.
	Listen to Simple Man by Leonard Skinner.
	I think they are words to live by.
	I'm not familiar with it, but I will look it up.
	JJHW says, is Constantine really saying that Biden got 80 million votes more than even the sainted Obama?
	If yes, I'm having him sanctioned or sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
	That wouldn't be the first time.
	Yeah, he should be sectioned and sanctioned.
	Good call.
	Now you've got it from the horse's mouth.
	There we go.
	I've got it from a European intellectual.
	No one's ever called me a European intellectual before.
	I'm so annoyed.
	They are heretic.
	You can't represent authority like we do, Carl.
	Exactly.
	I'm gutted.
	We're neoliberal shills.
	The R Heretic says, the reasons why Capitol Hill was stormed is based on legitimate grievances as opposed to Black Lives Matter protesters who just want to burn, loot, maim and claim more racism.
	Imr Flex says, Trump supporters better be ready for the gulag.
	F. Yeah, we've already discussed this.
	Anything that we've already covered, I'll just refer you back to the bit we covered.
	Mr.
	Twisted Frenzy, not halfway through the first month, and already 2021 is making 2020 look tame.
	Did you hear that Archer's channel got hacked and terminated?
	Yeah, I hear that YouTube are helping him get it back, though.
	But yes, 2021 is not any less surprising than 2020.
	Matthew Hammond.
	Yep.
	Stigma of the Rose says, I would recommend listening to Robert Barnes and Viva Fry on the topic about standing.
	It's a political tool to ignore crimes that isn't constitutional.
	Yeah, I don't want to get into the weeds or anything, but it is pretty sus.
	Edward of Woodstock, accusations of corruption and violence on the streets.
	The capital has stormed.
	It might be black pill-taking, but it sounds like the first century BC. Who will be left to have seen the Republic?
	Yeah, this is why we're having a conversation like this.
	I mean, it was inevitable that the conversation was going to go like this.
	Because we all agree, look, we don't want violence, we don't want storming anything, let's have a real conversation about things.
	Mr.
	Crasher J says, using martial arts as a metaphor for ideas, there's a difference between being shown a martial art and just being told it's effective.
	It's actually seeing it used in battle with the possibility that it might not win out.
	Rez says, nothing but gives us 99 Aussie dollars.
	99 Aussie cents, sorry.
	So thank you.
	Lucas Penner says, an insult, but thank you for the donation.
	Ivan Ehrlich says, the Republican name has already been thrown through the mud because there is no fear of repercussion.
	The mainstream media speaks better of Islam than of them.
	Kissinger knows nothing of the world.
	That's interesting.
	Stuart McLean says none of the court challenges were heard by a Trump appointee.
	SCOTUS was right to punt it when they did.
	It should have been filed today.
	Okay.
	Rez, did you disavow Ukraine storming the parliament?
	Is YouTube going to make me disavow it?
	I mean, I'm happy to disavow if YouTube's going to force my hand.
	What's their editorial policy on the Ukrainian parliament storming?
	Sheikha Silva says, Constantine Trump fans are not Republicans like the GOP. There's a difference between conservative, liberal populists and neoliberal neocon sellouts.
	That's what I said.
	Yeah, yeah, no, I think we all agree.
	I view the Trump supporters as being a lot closer to the Bernie bros than the neolibs.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And this is something I found really frustrating about the Bernie Bros, actually.
	Just to sidetrack very quickly.
	I would have thought that Trump could have done more to court them, and they should have done more to court Trump.
	You know, Trump would probably have given them a lot of the things they wanted.
	Anyway, Pence literally called in the National Guard on peaceful protesters.
	Constant insults, right?
	Okay, I'm not going to read the rest of it.
	You've upset a lot of people constantly.
	That's what I do.
	That is.
	And I'm sure I get the same when I go on your stream.
	Tobin Russell, we call these rules the Constitution in America.
	Yep.
	This is why it's frustrating.
	But anyway, Stephen Thompson, there's not been gunfire in the Capitol building since the British shot up the place and set fire to the White House.
	It's in the White House in 1814.
	That's true.
	The good old days.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah, yeah.
	When things were better.
	No Vegetal says, there are two types of people right now, those who have looked into the fraud allegations and those who don't believe them.
	Both can be seen here.
	Oof.
	Gareth Green, the compromise is the problem with democracy.
	It erodes principles.
	Compromise is the only way democracy works.
	Right.
	Mark G says, if the left wasn't trampling on our rights, maybe peaceful protests would be easier.
	We took on Britain and did some unspeakable things for taxing us.
	Okay, and am I supposed to be in favour?
	Shaker Silver, they want truth and reconciliation, not peace.
	Alexander Cross, the thing about chess is while there is no rule about the opponent picking up the clock and bashing your skull in, it's nevertheless a possible outcome.
	The rules do not dictate all outcomes unless they are respected.
	Tobin Russell says, this is the Rubicon Sargon Sic Semper Tyrannus.
	Well, Trump walked up to it and then walked away.
	Stay Frosty says, hey, it's the time for healing.
	What a cop-out.
	The healing phase will be the persecution of big-name Trump supporters.
	There are already leftists calling for lists of Trump supporters they want to persecute us.
	Yeah, and that's what leftists do, is that they persecute their opposition.
	But like we've all agreed, there shouldn't be any persecution of Trump supporters.
	MuteStream, I'm here to simp and listen to stuff.
	Love you all.
	Thank you very much.
	Ripperman, we're almost at the end.
	60% of people don't believe the election and we just exhausted the last non-bloodshed option.
	Leave that hanging in the air.
	Adam1 says, what recourse does the Trump base have to be heard?
	We covered this earlier.
	MichaelVPS, are Dems evil or just power-hungry and ignorant?
	Francis, what's the answer?
	I really, really dislike the word evil.
	I think it's a very, very childish word when used by both sides.
	Are they power-hungry?
	I think all sweeping statements are bad.
	There are people within the Democrat Party who want...
	A free and fair election.
	There are people in the Democrat Party who believe that they have the answers to America's problems.
	Everybody has different solutions to America's problems.
	There are people in the Democrat Party who I feel are unhelpful, but ultimately calling one particular side evil and wrong is fundamentally unhelpful and is not going to solve the problems we face.
	Plus, they're all politicians.
	They're all power hungry and evil.
	Yeah, right.
	So we're almost on the second hour now, so I'm afraid I don't think we're going to be able to read out any more Super Chats.
	And I'm really sorry about that, because loads of people have sent loads in, and I don't doubt you've got really, really good points that you've raised.
	But unfortunately, time is getting away from us.
	So what I'm going to do is say thank you very much to Constantine and Francis for joining us, despite the controversy that you have caused.
	But no, I really appreciate the fact that you've come on generally.
	But even more so in the light of what's happened and even more so in the fact that you disagree with obviously a sizable segment of my audience and myself on some of these points.
	But again, I think that we've shown that discourse is possible and desirable.
	So thank you everyone for joining us.
	Thank you for constantly again and Francis.
	And I'll leave a link in the description to Trigonometry should you wish to go and check their channel out, which I think you should.
	I mean, I'm subscribed, so I don't see why you wouldn't be.
	See you later, guys.
	Well, I can see why they would be now.
	The comments on tonight's stream are going to be spicy.
	We look forward to it.
	I'll listen in.
	I'll listen in.
	Take care.
	Take care, guys.

▲