All Episodes
July 7, 2021 - Knowledge Fight
01:48:22
#574: May 28-29, 2003

Today, Dan and Jordan check in on the past.  In this installment, Alex reveals that some of his more sensible-sounding positions are actually dumb, interviews a guy his audience clearly hates, and gets a call from a guy who recently lost a tiger. Citations

Participants
Main voices
a
alex jones
13:54
d
dan friesen
01:03:57
j
jordan holmes
22:29
| Copy link to current segment

Speaker Time Text
unidentified
I have great respect for Knowledge Fight.
Knowledge Fight.
alex jones
I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys, saying we are the bad guys.
Knowledge fight.
unidentified
Dan and Jordan.
Knowledge fight.
alex jones
I need money.
unidentified
Andy in Kansas.
Andy in Kansas.
alex jones
Stop it.
Andy in Kansas.
It's time to pray.
Andy in Kansas, you're on the air.
unidentified
Thanks for holding us.
Hello, Alex.
I'm a first time caller.
I'm a huge fan.
jordan holmes
I love your room.
unidentified
Knowledge fight.
alex jones
KnowledgeFight.com.
unidentified
I love you.
dan friesen
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to Knowledge Fight.
I'm Dan.
jordan holmes
I'm Jordan.
dan friesen
We're a couple dudes like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene, and talk a little bit about Alex Jones.
jordan holmes
Oh, indeed we are, Dan.
Yup.
unidentified
Dan.
Jordan.
Quick question.
dan friesen
What's up?
jordan holmes
What's your bright spot?
dan friesen
My bright spot today, Jordan, is a callback to a bright spot of days past.
I was going to do laundry.
I went down to the laundry room and what should fly past me but a thing.
I thought it was a bat.
unidentified
Right.
dan friesen
It was pretty early in the morning and I was like, maybe there's bats around.
jordan holmes
Laundry rooms have bats.
That's science.
dan friesen
It's in a basement.
You gotta go down a set of stairs.
alex jones
Just fact.
dan friesen
And I thought like, oh, bat.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
And I looked and there were birds nesting underneath the staircase.
And it was, you know, I remember seeing that like a year ago.
unidentified
Yeah.
dan friesen
It was really delightful.
It brought to mind feelings about the...
The pandemic waning, I guess, a little bit, or life returning to a little bit more of normalcy, and the birds are in on it, too.
jordan holmes
Yeah, that is nice!
Was it the same birds?
dan friesen
No, it was in a different spot under the stairs, and it was clearly different birds.
jordan holmes
Sure, sure.
dan friesen
I got to know these birds pretty well, and these were different birds.
jordan holmes
I was going to say, it would be nice if you had a whole intergenerational thing starting in the laundry room.
dan friesen
I don't think generations of birds last a year.
I don't know how long birds live, but I think it's longer than a year.
jordan holmes
It could be.
dan friesen
Yeah.
So what's your bright spot?
jordan holmes
My bright spot, Dan, is DJ Danarchy has made me and us and all of us something very cool.
If you could, please.
God's damn wizard!
God's damn wizard!
The maracas begin to shake and they gradually shake faster and faster and faster until they get louder and louder and louder.
Yeah, this sounded like our theme song.
Hey, that's right!
We finally have a theme song for the podcast that will be coming out next week.
dan friesen
Oh, wow.
Very exciting.
The release date for your...
Is it all just going to come in one...
jordan holmes
It's all going to come in one giant shot.
It's going to show up.
You'll be able to download it and listen to the whole thing.
And then if there's a second season, we will let you know.
dan friesen
Sure.
We'll have a theme song now.
jordan holmes
Exactly.
It seems almost like we're obligated.
dan friesen
We'll see.
I'm not.
jordan holmes
I didn't think so.
dan friesen
I'll probably do it if you do it, but I am certainly not obligated.
I am not good at acting or playing along with things.
jordan holmes
You were great.
dan friesen
Thank you.
jordan holmes
You were great, Dan.
dan friesen
I was fishing for compliments.
jordan holmes
I know, and you caught something beautiful.
dan friesen
So, Jordan, today we are doing a little sneak snake episode.
We're in the past.
unidentified
Okay.
dan friesen
We're talking about May 28th and 29th, 2003.
unidentified
Okay.
dan friesen
I didn't know what to expect, going back to this, because time's a little confusing.
jordan holmes
Sure.
dan friesen
And the last time we went back to the past, I found it to be a little bit stagnant, and I was a little bit worried.
I was like, I don't feel like there's any progress about things that I know are actually important for what happened at this point.
But today, business picks up a little bit.
jordan holmes
Oh, okay.
dan friesen
And I'm very excited about a couple of things that happened that have nothing to do with how important, like these important stories from 2003, nothing to do with them.
jordan holmes
That sounds right.
dan friesen
But there's one caller in particular that blew my mind, and I spent a couple hours researching this call, and I'm very excited to talk about it.
And we'll get to that.
But before we do, Jordan, we gotta take a little moment to say thank you to some folks who have signed up.
And our new wonks.
jordan holmes
Yay, that's a good idea.
dan friesen
That was me vamping while I pulled up my sheet.
So first, Nick fucking Gage.
Thank you so much.
You're now a policy wonk.
alex jones
I'm a policy wonk.
jordan holmes
Thanks, Nick fucking Gage.
dan friesen
This Nick also asked me to do the entire Steiner math promo.
jordan holmes
Okay, well.
dan friesen
And I unfortunately could not do that.
It's way too long.
jordan holmes
I was going to say, I've got a clock up, but...
dan friesen
Next, Nessa the Cryptid.
Thank you so much.
You're now a policy wonk.
alex jones
I'm a policy wonk.
jordan holmes
Thanks, Nessa!
unidentified
Thank you.
dan friesen
Next, bad uniball parachutist zero-sum.
Thank you so much.
You are now a policy wonk.
alex jones
I'm a policy wonk.
jordan holmes
Thank you!
dan friesen
And now it is time to get deep.
alex jones
Giving someone life is giving someone death.
You could say that...
Life is death.
dan friesen
You could.
jordan holmes
It's true.
dan friesen
So, Matty, happy birthday.
Happy birthday.
M-A-D-D-Y, Matty.
jordan holmes
Matty.
dan friesen
Also, I apologize.
I think it's Goral.
Goral.
This is one of those names that has an O that has a slash through it.
I don't know what to do with that letter.
jordan holmes
Is that Gourl?
dan friesen
Could be.
jordan holmes
I never remember with the slash.
dan friesen
That's not one of the characters that I'm aware of how to pronounce.
There's a number of sort of non-English...
Symbols, yeah.
Yeah, that I'm fine with.
jordan holmes
Totally.
dan friesen
That one I don't know what to do with.
I stare at it and I'm like, I do...
jordan holmes
The A with the little spiral on top?
No.
Just get it out of here.
I don't understand it.
dan friesen
This one's from Torstein in Norway.
Wanted to wish possibly Goral a happy birthday.
jordan holmes
Happy birthday!
dan friesen
Also, Michael T., happy birthday.
Anna wanted us to give you a shout-out.
Happy birthday.
unidentified
Happy birthday.
dan friesen
Next, DW Static.
Also having a happy birthday.
Happy birthday, D.W. Having a happy birthday.
Also, Joseph sent a message.
He's got a birthday, but instead of wishing a happy birthday to himself, he wanted to spread this to all the community of wonks and wish everyone else in the world, I guess, even if it's not your birthday, have the good feelings of someone wishing you a happy birthday.
jordan holmes
That's a good one.
I like that.
I like that.
dan friesen
Very nice and communal.
So thank you.
I guess.
jordan holmes
That's right.
That's why I think we should celebrate the way that The Giver did with Lois Lowry.
Everybody has the same birthday once a year.
Everybody, same birthday.
dan friesen
Move on with the rest of your year.
unidentified
Just take care of it.
dan friesen
This is birthday day.
jordan holmes
This is birthday.
The end.
I like it.
dan friesen
Might be functional.
jordan holmes
Yeah, we'll see.
dan friesen
So, Jordan, we're going to get into business on this episode, but before we do, here is an Out of Context drop from today's episode.
alex jones
No grandchildren for you!
dan friesen
Alex Jones is the grandchildren Nazi.
jordan holmes
Still no grandchildren!
dan friesen
He's the grandchildren Nazi.
No grandchildren for you.
jordan holmes
I know, but it's funny that we're in the present day on our last episode talking about how there's no way for your next generation to grow into adults and then we go back in time and they're still...
There's gonna be no grandchildren!
dan friesen
It is something of a preoccupation for Alex.
jordan holmes
Seems like it.
dan friesen
Yeah, but it's not being formulated in the same way that they will all not grow up.
jordan holmes
Well, it's good to know there's a lot of ways to get to the same destination, I suppose.
dan friesen
So we start on May 28th, and I will say that the beginning of this episode, a little bit slow.
I'm lying.
It heats up fast.
unidentified
Okay.
dan friesen
Got me...
Very interested, very quickly.
jordan holmes
Okay, okay.
alex jones
I'm for the death penalty, too.
I believe that a serial killer or whatever should be executed.
I mean, that's an eye for an eye.
That makes sense.
It's something that needs to be done.
But you have the big criminals running the government.
How can you trust them to mete out the death penalty?
So death penalty moratorium considered in North Carolina, a blue-collar town known for its furniture factories, law and order conservatism, hardly seems the kind of place that would call for a moratorium on the death penalty.
But people don't trust the government.
So how can you trust the government to hand out the death sentences?
I mean, certainly you're for the death penalty, most of you.
So am I. But in Soviet Russia, would you be for Stalin handing out death sentences?
dan friesen
Immediately, I was like, I am so fascinated.
I got completely thrown for a curveball here.
jordan holmes
Is this a nuanced take?
dan friesen
It's not.
For Alex?
No.
It's something that's trying to have the appearance of a nuanced take that actually isn't.
And honestly, I think this is the first time I've ever heard Alex give a definitive position on the death penalty.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
Up till this point, I'd gathered from context clues that he didn't support the policy, given that many of his other ideas that appear to be based on principles have to do with the government not doing things to individuals.
jordan holmes
Right, right.
dan friesen
The position he's putting forth is absolutely the definition of not having a position.
Right, right, right, right.
whether or not that is actually true.
jordan holmes
Right, right, right.
dan friesen
Still other positions can be based on ethics, where there's an intrinsic moral character to sentencing someone to death, and that consideration guides your position.
And then there are sets of political beliefs that could include a strong position regarding the relationship between the individual and the state, which would impact your views on the death penalty in obvious ways.
Alex seems to only be operating on the most elementary level here.
He's appealing to an emotional desire for an eye to be taken for an eye.
This is really unimpressive stuff from him, and I once again regret that I gave him more credit than he deserves in terms of this position.
The other cowardly thing Alex is doing here is that he's claiming that he's for the death penalty, but not when the government is corrupt.
The level of corruptness of the government is a completely arbitrary and subjective measurement for Alex, so this actually means nothing.
According to his feelings, the George W. Bush government, and obviously the Clinton one before it, they are too corrupt to responsibly hand out death sentences.
but it would be impossible to formalize this into any meaningful scale that you could judge things on.
Literally anyone could just counter his argument by saying that they believe that the Bush administration was not too corrupt to hand out death sentences, and Alex would have nowhere to go.
He could rattle off instances of governmental corruption to try and build to a point, but that still doesn't handle the subjectivity of his assessment of which government is or isn't too corrupt to sentence people to die.
It makes no sense.
jordan holmes
Was he...
I didn't realize that it was in specific...
With the level of corruption of the government.
I thought it was more of a blanket, like, you wouldn't trust the government to do that just because there's a good chance they are corrupt in some fashion or another, because they always have been.
dan friesen
No.
jordan holmes
So he's like, in specific, there are certain governments...
We'll get more into this.
Really?
dan friesen
Yes.
jordan holmes
Okay, well now that doesn't make any fucking sense.
unidentified
No.
dan friesen
By presenting his position this way, Alex is effectively making it seem like he's taking a position when he's actually not.
He's in favor of the death penalty, but only when it comes to some imaginary ideal government that could be in place.
By planting his flag there, he can manage to not alienate either side of the debate while getting each to think that he's actually on their side, which is a bit weaselly.
There's an additional problem here, too, and that's that there's no reason why the logic Alex is using should apply exclusively to punishments involving the death penalty.
If your opposition to the state imposing a death penalty has to do with the state being too corrupt to responsibly give out that sentence, then it should stand to reason that they're also too corrupt to responsibly incarcerate somebody.
The reasoning that Alex is using is that the state is too corrupt to responsibly incarcerate somebody.
And the way he's presenting it, I understand where you're coming from.
And I actually think that it does get closer to what the point should be.
You're saying that by the very nature of it, the government is too corrupt to...
jordan holmes
To mete out the death penalty.
unidentified
Yes.
dan friesen
And I think that that would be a position that you could call, I guess, functionally...
Anti-death penalty.
I think that that would have much less problems than what Alex is saying.
Because he's not saying that.
He's saying that if there were somebody in charge who was cool, then the death penalty would be good, because murderers deserve to die.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
No, I mean, if you wanted to get into it, like, what's the level of...
I mean, yeah, Nazi war criminal.
Maybe the death penalty's fine there, I guess.
That's an argument.
Whether or not you can trust the government to single out individuals is an obvious open and closed question from all of human history.
The government can't do it without eventually abusing it and killing a bunch of people that they just want gone.
dan friesen
I think what's going on is that you're giving more credence to what Alex is saying than it merits.
jordan holmes
Yes, I'm giving far more credence.
dan friesen
You're reading into this and trying to find a way for it to work when it doesn't.
jordan holmes
No.
dan friesen
We'll see more as we go along.
I always thought there would be a blanket opposition to the death penalty from Alex because of the relationship between individual and state that is implied through all of his...
And I was surprised when he says that he's for the death penalty.
I was also surprised when I heard this.
alex jones
Look, it's like drugs.
I'm against drugs, okay?
Other than caffeine.
I do drink coffee.
But I think illegal drugs are bad news.
So are big pharma's pharmacological, over-the-counter, and prescription garbage.
But at the same time, we're forced to decriminalize because the government ships the drugs in to create the crisis.
The bigger the war on drugs gets, the more drugs, the more people in prison.
That's a fact, people.
dan friesen
That is not how I've heard Alex explain his opposition to drug laws at other points in his career that I've listened to.
Every other time I've heard this discussed, the issue is that Alex is not in favor of drugs, but you have the right to take whatever you want.
It was literally one of the main selling points of Ron Paul to people on the left, and one of the major tools Alex tried to use to insist that he wasn't a right-winger.
unidentified
He was cool!
dan friesen
He thought drugs should be legal!
You have the right!
You're an individual!
You're an adult!
Freedom!
unidentified
Totally.
dan friesen
He clearly doesn't actually believe that.
His opposition to drug laws is purely a consideration of trying to break up the cartel of globalists who he believes ship in all the drugs.
Legalization is in essence a strategic move against the globalists, not something that Alex supports because of the political belief that adults should be able to use drugs if they want to, which is the way that he presents it pretty regularly.
This is super weird, man.
I'm like five minutes into this episode and already Alex has explained two of his positions on things that I thought he was pretty rational about and shown that his positions are all wrong.
I'm starting to question if there are any positions that he and I would agree on.
jordan holmes
Nope, can't think of any.
unidentified
No.
dan friesen
I don't think so.
jordan holmes
No.
Even when you agree, he's wrong about it somehow.
dan friesen
I hold out that last bit of hope that somehow the conversation about civil asset forfeiture won't somehow turn out to be his position on that is based in some kind of alien fear or something.
jordan holmes
I'm more like, we need to get way down on a base level of you guys in a room with a mediator just being like...
Who's got the best pizza?
Just, like, start there.
dan friesen
No, that's even too...
jordan holmes
Can you even agree on it?
dan friesen
That's even too murky.
The way we don't do it is, is this green?
jordan holmes
Is this green?
Yes, that's a good point.
No, nothing.
Just pure is or is not.
dan friesen
Yeah.
So, like I was saying, about the execution thing, the death penalty, Alex talks a little bit more about his feelings, and this is where it kind of gets into, like, alright.
I can kind of see what you're saying, but it's still incredibly stupid.
alex jones
But you need to have massive evidence to do it.
There need to be strong rules in place.
But no, there should not be a federal death penalty, ladies and gentlemen.
It's unconstitutional.
It's dangerous.
You don't want a central government having that power.
dan friesen
Here's an interesting statistic that I'd like Alex to chew on.
Maybe you know the answer to this.
I'm not sure if you do.
How many people were executed by the federal government during the eight years that Obama was in office?
Do you know that?
Yup, zero.
From 1958 to 2001, only four people were executed by the federal government, one of whom was Timothy McVeigh.
Three of these came during George W. Bush's presidency, but none after March 2003, so at the point when Alex is complaining about federal executions, he's talking about something that won't happen again for over 17 years.
And then Trump became president, and 13 people were executed by the federal government, and I don't think I ever heard Alex bring it up as a problem.
jordan holmes
No, that's because we finally had a government that wasn't corrupt.
dan friesen
Right?
jordan holmes
Exactly.
dan friesen
See, this is kind of why I get the sense that this is, oh, if there's the right person in charge, I don't think this is actually a problem.
jordan holmes
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
dan friesen
Because it became a giant issue during Trump's presidency.
jordan holmes
You would hope.
dan friesen
The shift in tone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
unidentified
Was stark.
dan friesen
Insane.
unidentified
And the fact that it wasn't a major breaking point for Alex, if this is actually what his position is rooted in, that, oh, it should only be states doing it.
dan friesen
Then that's, I don't know.
I don't know if that makes sense, and I don't trust it.
jordan holmes
It doesn't, that idea of the different, that federal government shouldn't be able to, but state government should, that's so stupid, I can't even breathe.
dan friesen
So, there have been few federal executions for Trump for many years.
But conversely, according to analysis from USA Facts, between 1977 and 2018, there were 1,490 executions carried out.
...
particularly Texas, carry out the vast majority of executions.
And Alex is saying that he's fine with that, which makes absolutely no sense based on what he's pretending to base his positions on earlier.
If he doesn't believe the federal government should be able to sentence people to death because the government can be corrupt, it's absolutely idiotic to pretend that the same concern doesn't exist in slightly lower levels of governmental organization.
Being opposed to the death penalty, but only on the federal level, is the very definition of a meaningless position.
It only becomes more meaningless when you explicitly support state executions and you live in Texas, the state with the government that seems most interested in killing convicts.
It's a downright farce when you also go on to support Donald Trump, the president who presided over 13 federal executions, a total reached in four years that surpasses the number of federal executions that have been carried out for the preceding 67 years combined.
My point is that Alex's political beliefs are idiotic and they're not based on anything.
But, at very least, this kind of brings things into focus.
You know, at least you can kind of get a sense, because he's given us this little piece of information, it's just a states' rights kind of argument that doesn't have anything to do with ethics, morality, or even opposition or support for the death penalty.
jordan holmes
Okay.
dan friesen
It's...
Meaningless.
jordan holmes
I mean, well, because here's a big problem.
If you want to abolish the death penalty in Texas, in Alex's eyes, what it should do is secede, then it will be its own federal government and will no longer be able to perform executions.
dan friesen
Wow.
Yeah, and then I guess the state of Austin would have to choose.
jordan holmes
Exactly!
They would have to hire their own executioner.
dan friesen
But then Austin would have to secede.
jordan holmes
That is such a fucking stupid thing to say.
It is beyond...
I mean, wow.
dan friesen
Yeah.
It's interesting to me because he just hates the federal government.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
That's it.
He just hates the federal government so much that he's willing to accept how many probably innocent people are being killed in the state of Texas by the government.
unidentified
Yeah, tons.
dan friesen
I don't understand this.
One of the things that I find most remarkable about it is that I could have listened to hundreds and hundreds of hours of Alex's show and still have this be, oh, I had the baseline position that you had wrong.
I had way too generous of an assumption.
Because I've heard him talk about not being in favor of the death penalty.
I just didn't realize that maybe it was rooted in something that's really stupid.
jordan holmes
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, there's just...
Yeah, the only way to carry out the death penalty in Alex's eyes is if there is a, I suppose, philosopher king who's choosing each and every individual person based upon God's orders.
dan friesen
And when we talk about philosophers, we're talking about Trump.
jordan holmes
Donald Trump.
Donald that fucking Trump.
Yep.
dan friesen
So, at this point, the process and policy of debathification is in place.
jordan holmes
Right.
dan friesen
And Alex still is not addressing that or dealing with it in any way, which will end up being, I think, a gigantic thing he was wrong about.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
And here is another thing vis-a-vis the Iraq War that Alex is very wrong about.
alex jones
I want to take calls on a bunch of subjects today.
They haven't found weapons of mass destruction, but don't worry.
They're going to find some here pretty soon and say, see, we told you so.
I can see from what they're doing.
That's the propaganda that they're setting up.
That's the play they're running on us right now.
dan friesen
Now, in 2021, looking back, I do not believe they did find...
jordan holmes
Yeah, you know, that's Alex almost underestimating the government.
That's Alex being like, well, you know, they wouldn't just straight up lie us into a war, right?
dan friesen
Yeah, I mean, like, if his ideas were correct about how the globalists operate and their level of control over everything, that's exactly what would have happened, because he's writing that novel.
jordan holmes
Yeah, because that would have been the way that they are like, see, we proved it, because we set it up the whole time.
Instead of him really not grasping that they could just lie us into a war, which seems weird for a guy whose job is to turn lies into money.
dan friesen
Yeah.
Well, that conversation, though, about what you need to do or how you should respond to the reality of the Iraq War and the lead-up to it...
That lie isn't easily monetized.
It's not super easily turned into, and that's why you need to buy my tapes.
jordan holmes
Right, right, right.
That's fair.
dan friesen
That's fair.
This is.
jordan holmes
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The government is operating with complete impunity and lying to your faces about starting a war for this reason.
Buy my pills.
No, that's like, let's do something about that.
dan friesen
To be fair, Alex isn't selling pills at this point, but what it is is kind of like...
Ah, here is this science fiction conspiracy intrigue spy novel that's going on.
And if you read all my information, you'll be able to crack the code.
jordan holmes
Right, right, right.
dan friesen
And then we'll be able to transcend it.
That's the sale that he's offering.
unidentified
Yeesh.
dan friesen
So I think that these two things, if you were to listen to this episode, one of the things you would definitely take away from it is that this position on drugs and this position on the death penalty...
Are things that Alex really wants to take calls about.
I think it's a slow news day for him.
I think he's trying to solicit calls.
Now, at the same time, I don't know if I can get a sense that these are fictional versions of his positions.
Like, I don't think he's saying these things to try and antagonize people like someone might on a shitty call-in talk show.
jordan holmes
Right, right, right, right.
dan friesen
It does seem like, oh, this makes sense that you...
I could believe that.
It's just stupider than I thought your positions were.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
And so he takes calls, and this one guy who calls in, he wants to sort of distinguish.
When we're talking about drugs, we're talking about, like, not weed, right?
jordan holmes
Sure.
No, no, no, no.
dan friesen
And Alex is not chill.
unidentified
I agree with you that cocaine, heroin, crack, methamphetamines, I do agree with you that all those drugs are bad.
And all those drugs that you'll notice are synthetically made by humans.
Now, marijuana, I don't consider to be personally a drug.
And I think that's very important for people to understand that a lot of the drug laws, as they were put down at time past, were not really made to stop the drugs.
alex jones
Well, sir, let me stop you.
This whole line, and I agree with some of what you're going to say, and what you've said, but look.
Nightshade grows naturally.
It'll kill you if you eat it.
Too much of it.
Wow.
Cyanide shows up naturally.
jordan holmes
Good point.
alex jones
And that'll kill you.
So this line that marijuana isn't a drug is a joke.
dan friesen
This kind of feels like trolling.
jordan holmes
You got me.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
Well, with an argument that good, nothing I can say against that.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
Wow.
dan friesen
I feel like from Alex's branding that he wants to put forth about himself.
He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who wants to be quibbling about whether or not weed's a drug when he's talking about being against drugs.
jordan holmes
I think weed grows and it's, you know, it's not really that much of a drug.
Oh yeah?
Well, did you know poisons exist?
dan friesen
They grow.
unidentified
Aha!
jordan holmes
Now everything's illegal!
dan friesen
Smash cut to close to the present day in Alex's smoking blunts on Joe Rogan's show.
jordan holmes
Yes, exactly.
You fucking hypocritical asshole.
dan friesen
Oh, look, I like this tobacco.
jordan holmes
Oh man.
dan friesen
What a jerk.
jordan holmes
Yeah, he definitely cut him off before he said...
You know, these drugs were illegalized because of, and then the answer to that was going to be criminalizing underrepresented groups in government, especially racism in Portland.
dan friesen
He does bring that up a little bit, this caller.
But he also, this caller, brings up the death penalty and Alex's position on it.
And this caller has an interesting reason to be against the death penalty.
He's coming from a utilitarian perspective.
He believes that the death penalty is not a deterrent.
unidentified
I want to say, I guess another point, I see myself being against the death penalty just because of the fact that I really don't see it as a detractor from violence.
I could see it...
alex jones
Oh, yes it is.
It is an incredible deterrent.
The death penalty is a good thing if it's done by the states or locally, not federally.
And now you can't believe anything this federal government hands down because of all the DNA fraud they've been involved in.
That's my point.
We've got to get rid of the federal death penalty because this government can't be trusted.
dan friesen
I guess Alex got his wish.
I mean, from the moment he said those words, there were literally zero federal executions until his chosen god-king Trump came into office and started wantonly killing people.
jordan holmes
Yeah, I really wish he had gotten the death penalty abolished at the federal level.
dan friesen
Also, consistently, research has shown that there's no discernible deterrent effect in having a death penalty.
Statistically, violent crime and murder rates are lower in states that do not have death penalties, and a 2018 study reported on Death Penalty Info found that countries...
The study looked at murder rates for 10 years after 11 countries got rid of capital punishment, and they found that six of them had lower rates all 10 years.
Four had one or two years above the baseline and then saw a downward trend underneath the previous level.
Only the country of Georgia had a higher murder rate after, and explaining exactly why that might be the case is beyond me or this study.
Anyway, the point here is that no credible data that would back up Alex's conjecture that the death penalty is a good deterrent for crime exists.
jordan holmes
It's not a good deterrent, Dan.
It's an incredible deterrent.
dan friesen
According to Alex.
jordan holmes
It's almost like you can't believe how good a deterrent it is.
dan friesen
It feels like it would be, since you'd think that people would be less likely to commit crimes if they knew they might get killed for them, but that feeling is not based in reality.
According to the CDC's numbers, the states with the three highest death rates from homicide in 2019 were Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama.
All three of these states have active death penalties.
This shouldn't be the case if what Alex is saying is true, but it's not because he's not living in the real world.
jordan holmes
Yeah, it seems like the death penalty exists almost to justify an emotional need in...
I guess voters, you know?
dan friesen
Well, and I think that that's what you see when you hear Alex talking at the beginning.
Like, his support for the death penalty comes out of the emotional appeal to people deserve to die.
And I think that that is the lowest level of reasoning that you can approach the situation from.
Other than, I guess, randomness.
That's the lowest level.
Let's flip a coin.
jordan holmes
Oh, maybe!
dan friesen
Appealing to emotion of, like, I think that this person deserves to die because they committed this crime is...
It is not a well-thought-through position, and obviously, people's feelings are different about different crimes, and you'd get yourself in a lot of trouble if everything was organized that way.
That does seem to be what Alex is basing it on.
This caller has a slightly more evolved position than Alex, and Alex is telling them that they're wrong.
jordan holmes
Right.
Yeah, no, I mean, it is that kind of feedback loop of, yes, it is the most base...
The most base form of reasoning is that appeal to an emotion of, this person did bad, bad happens to this person now.
And that's why so many prosecutors and elected attorney positions are fucking running on those, like, look at how tough and look at how cruel I have been.
Because that appeals to that emotional base, and it's...
Law and order.
Yeah, it's how we get to where we are, is they can exploit the lowest form of reasoning to only enact worse.
God!
That sucks!
dan friesen
Yeah, because I think that the other thing, too, that is part and parcel with that is that the appeal to that emotion of this person deserves this because they did this crime is also an appeal to, like, your feelings of security and stability.
jordan holmes
Sure.
dan friesen
Because if you're the person who's hearing a politician be like, I'm tough on crime, really how it hits you and how you experience it isn't so much about, like, they deserve this.
It's...
I get the feeling that I will be safe from crime because this person is taking care of those things.
jordan holmes
Yes, the bad people who get bad done to them.
dan friesen
Yeah.
And I think that that security is an artificial emotional crutch that Alex is selling to.
jordan holmes
You bet.
dan friesen
So these callers are not great.
Alex has another caller who's, hey man, I got another idea about what we do about crime.
jordan holmes
All right.
unidentified
You know, America is the most technologically advanced nation on the planet, yet we still engage in barbarity and savagery.
You know, like, I figure that you should take the criminals, once it's been proven that they're criminals, they're the communities, vile acts or whatever, put them on an island with their own kind.
And, you know, never let them off.
alex jones
You know, that's an idea that's been tried before.
jordan holmes
Where?
alex jones
And I certainly think that if someone is convicted, take these people and put them on an island, put the violent offenders together, let them enjoy their own type, their own type of hate.
unidentified
Exactly.
dan friesen
What?
jordan holmes
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
dan friesen
I was with this guy until he got the island idea.
jordan holmes
I think we should send all of our criminals around the world to one island, perhaps a continent even, a big island, huge island, just send them all there, and I'm sure it'll never come back.
dan friesen
No.
I feel like this guy had some points that, you know, like we have a barbaric system in place.
I'm listening.
People should be given due process and make sure that they're guilty before being punished.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Send them to an island.
jordan holmes
Oh, boy.
Here's what I think we should do.
Restart the state of Georgia!
dan friesen
See, I feel like that clip is a really good tell that Alex isn't coming in with any real position that has an application in the real world, because in the modern day, the idea of creating a penal colony is stupid.
If he just wants people to call in and discuss how they'd like to punish criminals, I guess that's fine, but it is not a productive use of time.
jordan holmes
It does seem like everybody's having a little bit of a fantasy, like, here's how I would punish criminals.
All right, now you think the death penalty's a good idea.
What I would do is I would fill their room with cupcakes and then cover their hands in plastic bags and open their mouths real wide and they would eat one cupcake every day.
dan friesen
See, now that's interesting.
jordan holmes
That's how you solve crimes.
unidentified
You drive someone nuts.
jordan holmes
You drive someone insane!
dan friesen
This caller does not have an idea that that is quite as innovative as your approach to criminal justice, but this one would not.
unidentified
I think the state should only have the power of death, and I think it's like no quarter, no half measures.
If somebody's vile and wicked enough...
Then you have to put them to death.
When you put them in prison, all that does is create a situation where, oh, that's merciful, it's okay to put somebody in prison because they walked on the grass.
alex jones
They put nonviolent people in prison, they come out hardened thugs, it's a historical fact.
unidentified
Exactly.
dan friesen
I, too, feel like there are too many people in prison, but I strongly disagree with this entire conversation.
This is an unhinged position that would not stand up to the smallest amount of scrutiny.
So, if I were talking to this guy as a guy who was, like, hosting a radio show where you're taking calls on a subject, I have a couple questions that I would start off with.
jordan holmes
Alright, let's start this way.
Here's my job.
Okay.
I think the death penalty should be for everything.
dan friesen
Well, where's the line on when someone's bad enough that you gotta kill them?
jordan holmes
Uh, did they step on my grass?
dan friesen
No, apparently he's not for that.
jordan holmes
Okay.
dan friesen
But, like, what offense would qualify someone for the state to commit?
jordan holmes
All violent crimes.
dan friesen
So, okay.
Interesting.
Like, what about assault?
Like, what if I just came up to you and I punched you?
jordan holmes
Well, you gotta die.
That's vile.
dan friesen
I don't know, man.
I feel...
jordan holmes
And hands should be chopped off for property theft.
If we're gonna be brutal, I'm going for it, man.
dan friesen
No, no, because he's saying that the state should not have the power to do anything except kill.
jordan holmes
What is this deal?
I don't know.
It's your idea!
dan friesen
This is a completely untenable way to organize society.
If you think that white-collar criminals have it easy now, imagine how they would do in that country where the punishment is death or nothing.
I guess maybe this caller has an unstated position about...
What states can do.
So maybe states can have a robust criminal justice system, but the federal government can just kill.
jordan holmes
Only kill.
dan friesen
But then Alex would have to disagree with that because he doesn't think the federal government should be able to kill.
jordan holmes
What about a Hunger Games scenario?
If we're going to get batty and just have the federal government with the right to kill or zero kill, I say we have some fun with it.
This is the problem with people who think they can improve society with their terrible ideas.
They don't have fun.
And you just want the government to kill people?
No!
Make it a show, man!
dan friesen
What about...
Now here's...
This is not very fun.
I admit this is a little in the weeds.
jordan holmes
Alright, alright.
dan friesen
I would like to know what this person thinks about fines.
jordan holmes
I would imagine this person has received a great many fines in his day.
dan friesen
I think that these conversations are stupid.
jordan holmes
Sir, you can't be in my office anymore.
Sir, this is a $100 fine.
dan friesen
I'm listening to this show and I'm blown away that Alex is articulating his opposition to the death penalty and drugs the way he is.
And then he takes these calls and they're idiotic.
jordan holmes
Insane.
dan friesen
They are completely stupid.
jordan holmes
Absolutely, absolutely insane.
dan friesen
It's another caller.
And this lady, I don't know what to...
I can't make heads or tails of what she's talking about.
jordan holmes
Okay.
dan friesen
I think I can.
It's just a long story.
A long story about...
From what I can tell, the details of it are that there were some police that showed up at her house.
Because she has some acres of land, and there's maybe something suspicious going on on some of the acres of the land that she allows other people to use, and they wanted to look into what was going on, and so she let them in, and they said, thank you for letting us look around, and this is a giant conspiracy of some sort.
She's under attack.
Okay.
jordan holmes
That escalated very quickly.
dan friesen
This turns into Alex screaming.
jordan holmes
Okay, okay.
dan friesen
Intense stuff.
jordan holmes
Sure.
dan friesen
Like this.
alex jones
So what happened next?
unidentified
Well, you know, they were real nice, and they said, you know, we appreciate your cooperation.
alex jones
Oh, they're trash.
unidentified
And I told the children, all the children were there, and we had, see, I homeschool my children.
alex jones
And they call DCF on you.
They're real nice.
unidentified
Oh, absolutely.
But see, my children read better than their friends.
alex jones
What did the child grabbing services do to you after your husband died?
By the way, the hospitals have tracking records of that.
They know when a woman's alone.
They attack like predators when you're weak.
They're child kidnapping trash.
dan friesen
That's a little bit of an extreme response to the story that this person is telling him.
unidentified
Yeah.
dan friesen
So, like, she has 70 acres of land.
Her husband had passed away, and she does say that she allows people to use, like, 30 acres of it.
unidentified
Sure.
dan friesen
And there's not really a good sense that she has an idea of what's going on.
Sure, sure.
Some law enforcement showed up and wanted to look around, like I said, because they had reason to believe there was something suspicious there.
They didn't find anything, and they thanked her for cooperation, and now we've done this.
I fully understand standing up for your rights, and if this lady had chosen to let the police look around or told them to come back with a warrant, I think either is an appropriate choice to make in her situation.
It's one thing to be mindful of your rights and protect them.
It's another thing to do what Alex is doing, where he's trying to take some very benign details this caller is giving him and escalate the story into hospitals keeping track of when you're alone so they can kidnap your kids.
This is a sick person acting out at his audience, even back in 2003.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
You see a bit less of this at this point in his career, but it's pretty clear that this behavior is still part of Alex's psyche, even back at this point.
unidentified
Yeah.
jordan holmes
It's gross.
That's great.
That's a great way to calm someone down who's just had a bit of a scary experience, not used to having cops show up at their place.
You know, to have somebody to bounce things off of like, hey, DCFS is following you and they're going to steal your kids at any moment.
That's what I want to call me down.
dan friesen
And steal your land.
jordan holmes
And steal your land.
dan friesen
Apparently because this caller also brings up that one of the police that showed up knew her husband, her late husband.
jordan holmes
He was taking her to the land back?
dan friesen
Alex takes this to be like, oh, he knew you had land.
jordan holmes
Of course.
dan friesen
There's no indications.
jordan holmes
This is modern day.
It's very witch-burning, Dan.
They're trying to take moneyed and propertyed women.
dan friesen
And honestly, she's lucky she survived.
unidentified
You know, like you say, big bullies, you know, just go, oh, we have a right beer.
They come out, and the only way that you know that they're the law is because they have their shiny badge and they have their goat.
alex jones
They're only a step away.
They're now recruiting illegals, criminals, you name it.
And they've caught them in California.
They're only a step away from walking you to the back of the house, blowing the back of your head off.
And throwing down a bag of marijuana and taking your land and moving into it with their fat, stinking bellies.
unidentified
Well, I want you to know he would not take your 9-11, uh, the road to tyranny tape.
alex jones
I mean, it was a criminal.
unidentified
I actually tried to give him the 9-11 road to tyranny tape.
jordan holmes
They have a 90% wake-up on that, Dan.
dan friesen
Yeah, I know.
Cowards.
Cowards.
alex jones
Um...
dan friesen
Yep.
So apparently the police were looking to squat on this land, or I don't know.
It was a very extreme turn.
He takes a lot of time sort of yelling at this lady.
Seems to have a really good time.
jordan holmes
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It sounds like he's having a cracking time.
dan friesen
Yeah, and it all leads inevitably exactly where it's supposed to go.
alex jones
I'm sorry, Don.
I just am sick of it.
unidentified
God bless you.
I am too.
And listen, you don't know how many people out here you've woke up.
I give your tapes away.
alex jones
Yeah, I want you to make 100 copies, and I want you to tell the neighbors that story and say, we need you to make 100 copies, and for them to make 100 copies, let's have 10,000 copies of my video in that area so people know what they're dealing with.
Let's expose the...
Criminals!
dan friesen
Yeah, so the only solution, everything bottlenecks to promoting Alex's stuff.
jordan holmes
See, that takes me back.
That's good old-fashioned religion is what that is right there.
That's somebody telling you a story and you listening to them and you being part of them and you giving them the spirit of God and then at the end of it, my friend, what you need to do is...
Evangelize!
That is the way you pay for your sins!
dan friesen
You can hear Alex sweating.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
Of excitement from the forehead.
jordan holmes
We need a hundred tapes out of you.
unidentified
Yeah.
Wow.
dan friesen
So Alex has a guest after this.
He goes to break, comes back, he's got a guest.
Very exciting guest.
alex jones
Let's now go to a special guest.
I appreciate joining me on short notice.
Good friend of mine.
Great sponsor of this show.
dan friesen
It's his water sponsor guy.
unidentified
Oh, there we go.
dan friesen
It's the U.S. distributor of Black Berkey water filters is his guest.
jordan holmes
I'm afraid that I just don't think it's going to get much better than the soap guy.
dan friesen
No.
jordan holmes
It's just not.
dan friesen
No.
I have not yet heard another guest who is so clearly abusing Alex.
jordan holmes
Oh, just...
dan friesen
Forcing him to set up limericks.
Yeah, that...
unidentified
No, no, no.
jordan holmes
That's just too good.
dan friesen
Marty Schachter is...
Just the best.
jordan holmes
Then he even exists as beautiful.
It really is.
It makes me feel good.
dan friesen
I don't want his soap, but I'm sure he's an awful person.
But in terms of somebody who has bullied their way onto Alex's show with money and forced him to broadcast limericks, pretty great.
jordan holmes
It's pretty great.
dan friesen
But I will say, this is not limerick level, but it is still pretty funny that this is what's going on on Alex's show.
alex jones
And it's an amazing system.
And they have an insane deal where I told you a pallet fell over a couple days ago.
A few of them got broke.
Most of them got a few scratches.
Those that have any real damage are being thrown away.
Instead of $199 for the two-filter Black Berkey clear filter that does dozens of gallons a day, tens of thousands of gallons in its lifetime, only $149, $50 for the scratch and dent sale.
And a lot of these don't even have a scratch on them.
It's a great deal, folks.
You need to get this.
dan friesen
Oh, my God.
A pallet fell over.
jordan holmes
What kind of fucking hold up the used car salesman ass?
unidentified
We got a pallet fell over, so they're 50 bucks cheaper.
dan friesen
I thought that was pretty amazing.
I was thrilled.
jordan holmes
Listen, hey, it fell off the back of a truck sale.
You walk up, you take it, you give me cash, and you go away, no questions asked.
dan friesen
Yeah, I thought that was...
unidentified
I mean, low rent is the...
dan friesen
Term I would use for that sales pitch.
jordan holmes
Almost mint condition.
Lightly used.
dan friesen
You probably wouldn't even be able to tell that these fell off a pallet.
You might actually suspect that we just have too many of them and we want to move them.
jordan holmes
I can't believe you got so lucky that you got the one good one off the broken pallet.
That's amazing.
50 bucks off for you.
Good job.
dan friesen
Every month we have a guy pretend to knock over a pallet.
jordan holmes
Good find.
dan friesen
So, we head to the 29th, and Alex, not to outdo himself, has another guest in this episode that he teases at the beginning of the show.
alex jones
We have another guest coming on.
In Alabama and Georgia and other states in the South, they're having massive military checkpoints for the last three years in a row.
Now, I've caught some of these on video here in Texas, but now...
They're routing the highway off the road, the cars, into the National Guard armory.
They are ransacking vehicles, literally foaming at the mouth.
We have seen this over and over and over again, and we've got a guest coming on to talk about that coming up in about 30 minutes.
This is what the National Seatbelt Use Initiative is all about.
dan friesen
Bill Clinton funded with billions of dollars a year in 98. Seatbelt clicker ticket is about getting cars to armories to ransack.
jordan holmes
Such a weird stretch of time for us specifically.
So much seatbelt-related melodrama happening.
dan friesen
A lot of seatbelts.
jordan holmes
In a very short period of time for us!
dan friesen
Yeah, and it is weird.
It's another sign of my witchcraft that in the present day, Alex was going down to McAllen, Texas and doing the seatbelt snitch act.
jordan holmes
They're not wearing this!
dan friesen
Yeah.
It does add a little bit of hilarity that these things are sort of coexisting in our show at the same time.
Yeah.
jordan holmes
Bananas.
dan friesen
So, I don't want to spoil anything for you.
jordan holmes
Sure.
dan friesen
But this caller doesn't actually have much to say.
jordan holmes
Oh.
dan friesen
It doesn't prove a lot of this.
jordan holmes
Oh, no.
dan friesen
So, this next clip gets into something that's, I think, a little bit murky, and there's a lot of, there's probably a good bit of explanation that I need to, a lot of track on this one.
jordan holmes
Sure.
dan friesen
But Alex starts talking, and I was very confused, and it took a while to sort of disentangle some of these threads.
alex jones
I heard Joyce Riley talking about the report out of Brazil yesterday, so I went and got the actual document.
We're posting it on Infowars.com right now.
Of course, this has been out for years, but I think it's important to remind people of it.
She reminded me when I heard her show yesterday morning.
And I have the actual report put out by the National Security Agency and the CIA, Population and National Security, 30-page report where Dr. Kissinger and others talk about exterminating half of the Third World's population through birth control.
Forced sterilization, and it's been going on since the mid-70s.
Tens of billions of dollars of your tax money to do it.
And, my friends, it's just amazing.
Here's the headline.
Brazil launches inquiry into U.S. population activities.
Billions sterilized to meet U.S. policy objectives.
A U.S.-sponsored program that resulted in the sterilization of nearly half of Brazil's women has prompted a formal congressional inquiry sponsored by more than 165 legislators from every political party that is represented in the Brazilian legislature.
The investigation has ignited after information about a secret U.S. National Security Council memorandum on American population control objectives in developing countries was published in the Journal of Brazil.
And other major newspapers in early May.
Now, again, this goes back to the early 90s.
We have the 30-page report directly off the Library of Congress.
You can link through at InfoWars.com and read it.
dan friesen
So, just listening to this, I started with a little bit of confusion, because he's talking about a report out of Brazil.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
And so he said that we have this report.
And so I was like, does he have the report itself?
jordan holmes
Right.
dan friesen
What is the report?
And it didn't make sense to me, because he claims he's read this thing, and he's posting it.
It's a 30-page report called Population and Homeland Security.
Okay.
So I'm starting to put the pieces together, but there's no such report.
jordan holmes
Sure.
dan friesen
It's not a report out of Brazil.
This is something else.
This is this national security report.
jordan holmes
Right.
dan friesen
I know what he's talking about.
It doesn't match what he's saying.
The report he's referring to is National Security Study Memorandum 200 from December 1974.
The subtitle of the report is, quote, implications of worldwide population growth for U.S. security and overseas interests.
But the problem is that document's 123 pages long, not 30. I don't know what he's talking about.
Maybe some report about that report?
jordan holmes
Yeah, and you would say, like, oh, maybe he only read 30 pages of it, but he didn't read two pages of the 30 pages that he didn't read of the 124 pages.
dan friesen
Yeah, I don't know what...
The specific report he's talking about is.
But I do know that underneath it is this NSSM 200.
jordan holmes
Okay.
dan friesen
And we've talked about it in the past, particularly in the endgame coverage and stuff.
But to give a brief recap of it...
This is not a plan to sterilize the world.
That's a fake version of this document that Alex has imagined because it's really about providing foreign aid in the form of healthcare and reproductive assistance to people in less developed countries, and Alex is super against that.
He's smart enough to know that he would look like an asshole if he spent his time passionately yelling about how evil it is to provide healthcare to people in developing countries, so what he does is attack the policies and proposals to do just that by pretending that they're actually plans to kill everyone, and he's a hero for telling you about the evil.
If you actually go read NSSM 200 after having only heard Alex yell about it, one of the things you'll be surprised by is how much of the document is not about providing reproductive options to people in the developing world at all.
In reality, it's about the implications of the post-World War II population growth that's been seen around the world and how it could impact the general stability of the world, mostly as seen through the prism of U.S. interests.
The document places equal importance on programs aimed at, quote, The word sterilization is used two times in the document in the same paragraph when it's listed as one of the short-term options that are available to provide improved fertility control for
people in the developing world.
There's a list of options like oral contraception, IUD, and even teaching ovulation prediction and the rhythm method.
And sterilization in this context that it's being used is things like tubal ligation or vasectomies.
So, that's the thing.
Sterilization is a word that's a bit loaded.
On the one hand, coerced or pressured sterilization is definitely hugely unethical and unacceptable, and there is a history of it in the world, and I'm not minimizing that.
On the other hand, there's a long and widespread history of people using voluntary sterilization as a method of birth control, and Brazil is a place with an interesting history on that front.
There's a much larger picture here and a bigger story to unpack than what Alex is doing.
He's pitching a made-up version of this document from the 70s, combining it with a recent headline he's read from Brazil and declaring his work done.
In reality, he's done nothing and he's covering up what's actually going on under the surface.
The actual news headline here that he has is about an investigation in Brazil into the history of sterilizations, which was said to have been prompted by reports about NSSM 200 in Brazilian outlets.
Instead of talking about the details of Brazilian sterilizations and what this actual news story is about, Alex just rattles off his normal talking points about the memo and he pats himself on the back.
That was unsatisfying for me as a listener, so I decided to look a little bit deeper into the subject.
For a little background on the situation that Alex is covering, it's important to understand the roots of family planning history in Brazil.
As discussed by Jose Alves, professor of the National School of Statistical Sciences at the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics, titled, quote, The Context of Family Planning in Brazil, from the early days, there was a moratorium on any sort of birth control.
Federal decree 2029-1 from 1932, quote, established that doctors are forbidden from indulging in any practice whose aim is to prevent contraception or terminate gestation.
In 1941, a law was passed making it a crime to even advertise processes or substances that would be meant to encourage reproductive choice.
As you could probably imagine, this didn't stop the public demand for birth control options, and beginning in 1965, a group called Family Wellbeing Civil Society started providing some family planning services.
Though they were unable to meet demand, and even if they could, the ability to provide things like oral contraception was nearly impossible in the context of Brazil's laws.
The country was playing from behind.
And it didn't help that in 1964, Brazil was the locale of a US-supported coup that led to the installation of a military dictatorship that lasted until 1985.
Over the course of that period, opinions began to soften on family planning, with it becoming seen more as a matter of individual rights and health decision-making.
By the time that the real progress was being made on the issue of reproductive rights, there were already a ton of people in Brazil who had opted for sterilization as a means of birth control.
And many of them were women who already had kids and didn't want more.
And that predates the NSSM 200 memo that Alex is talking about.
One of the primary drivers I've been able to find identified as contributing to a high number of sterilizations in the country has to do with the period just after the end of the military dictatorship.
As the country went through the process of democratization, one of the moves that was made was to decentralize the medical system so there would be more local control and responsibility for the providing of healthcare to the public.
This was a decision that cut in two directions, particularly in higher poverty, less developed areas of the country.
As explained in an article from the journal Population and Development Review from March 2004, While efforts to improve and decentralize the administration of the public health care system undoubtedly led to progress in a number of larger municipalities, it is possible that decentralization actually fueled clientelism in smaller and poorer municipalities by providing an additional source of assets to be used for political purposes.
Decentralization resulted in a two-tiered system in which the better-off segments of the population opted for private, managed health care, while low-income groups were left to depend on public services of uneven or poor quality, in which preventative medicine as well as contraception had long been undervalued.
It was in this context, as politics and health care provision became deeply entangled and the demand for contraception rose among low-income groups with few alternative options for birth control, that sterilization acquired importance in the clientelistic exchange of medical care for votes.
From the paper, quote, Considering all our sterilized respondents, 71% said that they took the initiative of asking for the surgery, while 22% reported that the physician had suggested the procedure or had provided a medical indication for it.
People want reproductive health care that they just didn't have access to.
One doctor they spoke with explained the prevalence of sterilizations.
The reason one of them is that there's a shortage of other options.
And even if something like the pill was available, it's only available, quote, on an irregular basis, which prevents...
jordan holmes
Which kind of makes it pointless.
dan friesen
Yeah.
In this climate, where there is a demand for birth control and no access to it, people who are in positions to provide some access pop up.
The authors of the paper talked to another surgeon who explained, quote, Essentially, These mayors are friends of physicians.
Essentially the way it would work is that because the state wouldn't reimburse the doctor for performing a tubal ligation, they would do it in conjunction with another procedure at the patient's request in order to game the bureaucracy.
Of the 281 women they spoke to, 159 had personally asked a politician for a favor to get a tubal ligation, and 100 said that they, quote, returned the favor by voting for them.
78 of those 100 even, quote, tried to obtain additional votes for their benefactors.
It's a compelling snapshot here of this mutually beneficial yet inherently exploitative system that arose out of the inability of people to access reliable services.
self-directive reproductive health care.
It's always so fascinating to me how I can get curious about a subject that Alex is talking about, scratch the surface a little bit, and find that the exact solution to it is the thing that he opposes the most.
Yep.
And again, nothing that I'm saying is meant to minimize or pretend that eugenic applications of sterilization have not been used many times in history.
That's absolutely the truth.
It's just that there's a wider story that exists in terms of Brazilian history than Alex cares to even be curious about.
The headline he's reporting on is about this investigation in Brazil, and it's nothing new.
A parliamentary commission of inquiry was opened in 1967 to explore accusations of mass sterilizations, and another was launched in 1983.
There was a third opened in 1991, quote, to examine the spread of female sterilization in Brazil and identify persons or organizations responsible for its misuse.
This was followed by a National Congress investigation in 1992 that was to examine, quote, the possible racist motivations behind the provision of sterilization, the role of international agencies and interests, the availability of alternative birth control methods to low-income women, and the politically motivated use of tubal ligations.
The result was that, quote, in its final report, the congressional CPI echoed the findings of the state's investigations by noting that pervasive poverty and the lack of reproductive health services contributed to women's dependence on sterilization as a birth control method.
jordan holmes
Shocking no one.
dan friesen
Not really.
unidentified
Yeah.
dan friesen
This has been a matter that's widely discussed, and it's something that has been investigated and talked about in terms of Brazil for many years.
And I'm fairly certain that Alex doesn't even know about the existence of these previous investigations.
He just thinks that recently in Brazil someone found NSSM-200, and the whole thing's blowing up and exploding now, which is just dumb.
Alex provides his audience with a dumb but easy-to-understand story that leads them to accepting bad positions.
If you're opposed to sterilization being used as a birth control method, then waging a crusade against widespread access to alternative birth control methods is exactly the wrong way to do it.
jordan holmes
Ah, or you could have a draconian crackdown and remove all rights from women.
There are two ways to go.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
There are two ways to go.
I'm not saying that one is better than the other.
dan friesen
Yeah, and one of the things that I found really difficult was that, like, I don't know, like, and obviously I would never say that...
the use of sterilization or tubal ligation, and to a lesser extent vasectomies, as widely discussed in the sources that I was able to find.
I wouldn't ever pretend to be naive enough to think that there wasn't any abuse.
jordan holmes
No, of course.
dan friesen
And even the system that that one paper that I found discussing the clientelism aspect of it in poorer, less developed areas, like that is intrinsically exploitative.
jordan holmes
Oh, no, the power of balance is fucked up.
dan friesen
It would never happen like this if everyone had agency.
Exactly.
unidentified
Exactly.
dan friesen
Yeah.
unidentified
And what is available to be offered is an unfair exchange.
jordan holmes
Yeah, of course.
unidentified
Oops.
dan friesen
I wouldn't bet that there aren't instances of also abuse.
jordan holmes
It's people.
dan friesen
It's just that the stories that you hear about sterilization campaigns being used as methods of genocide or eugenics are what Alex wants you to think every single birth control initiative ever has been.
unidentified
Yes.
dan friesen
And that's unfair because I think it's a disservice to.
the campaigns that have happened and are horrors.
unidentified
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
jordan holmes
No.
unidentified
Yeah.
It's, it is, It's difficult for Alex, simply because you can't be for any kind of birth control.
jordan holmes
You just can't.
There's no way for Alex to square being like, okay, it's okay for sterilizations if there's no other available birth control method.
So it always has to be wrapped up in something else being a murder.
That's the only way you can talk about birth control through his eyes, you know?
dan friesen
But his politics don't allow for you to be able to dictate what someone can do with their own body.
Like, if you say, I want to...
jordan holmes
If that person's a woman, they do.
dan friesen
Fine, then let's make it vasectomies, then.
jordan holmes
Well, exactly.
dan friesen
It can't ever be someone's rational choice.
To engage in a birth control act.
It always has to be some sort of a conspiracy where you're tricked into it.
jordan holmes
Yeah, because if it is one time a rational choice, then that means that there are other people who can make that same rational choice and then all of a sudden there are a lot of things that you have to recontextualize as maybe that's a rational choice too until it becomes reasonable to assume that some forms of birth control are rational actors and then your whole argument about how everybody's trying to kill you is kind of gone.
dan friesen
It hurts.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
So, this conversation is about birth control.
It's about reproductive rights and health.
But Alex takes this story about Brazil, and you can see him pivot it, because he doesn't know really what anything is about, and he has a certain amount of talking points.
And he makes it about vaccines, because he also believes that they're trying to sterilize the third world through putting secret stuff in vaccines and stuff.
And so he just takes this story and makes it about that because it works.
alex jones
This is the mindset.
So you go ahead and take your vaccines, America.
People wonder why the male sperm count is down by 76% as of 2000.
I haven't seen the numbers in 2001 yet or 2002.
They come out years after.
Europe's sperm count is down by 80%.
jordan holmes
Hotly anticipated report.
alex jones
I know dozens of women that are friends of the family who are healthy.
Who don't use drugs, who are 30 years old, who cannot have children.
Europe's population in some cities is off by 50%.
Overall, in the next 30 years, Europe will lose about 40% of its population.
Whole cities are ghost towns now in Germany and France and England.
They're replacing them with immigrants from the third world.
So you can see what the policy has done.
It's not just in Africa and Latin America.
So you go ahead and take your tetanus shot.
You go ahead and give your daughter that tetanus shot and you wonder why she can't give you grandchildren 15-20 years from now.
Okay?
No grandchildren for you!
No grandchildren for you!
dan friesen
It is still about vaccines that he's yelling no grandchildren for you.
jordan holmes
No grandchildren for you.
dan friesen
Yep.
jordan holmes
Has anybody had any grandchildren?
dan friesen
To get into a white fear there quite a bit.
Yeah, some people have grandkids.
jordan holmes
In the past 20 years, I have not heard of any new grandkids.
Now, I mean, technically, in the past two years, I have had three combined nieces and nephews appear into this world.
unidentified
Yeah, so have I. But, but, whose grandchildren are they?
alex jones
Oh, God.
unidentified
Your parents?
jordan holmes
So stupid.
So stupid.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
So stupid.
dan friesen
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't want to speak too much about, like, Not believing Alex, because I feel like I do it too much.
But I wonder if these people that he knows who can't have kids are made up, or like the lieutenant colonels he talks about all the time.
Could be made up.
jordan holmes
I gotta tell my family to start vaccinating their kids if they want them to stay at that baby.
You know how some people are like, oh, I wish they could stay this age forever.
Guys, COVID vaccine now.
Three years old forever.
dan friesen
I, Jordan, I just had a terrifying moment.
jordan holmes
What's that?
dan friesen
I have to make a correction.
jordan holmes
Oh, no.
dan friesen
I said that Alex makes things up.
I have to, I forgot.
alex jones
Folks, you've been listening to the show for four or five years, six years, some of you, some of you eight years, you live here in Austin.
And you know I don't make stuff up.
I post the documents on Infowars.com for the five years we've had the website.
We tell the truth here, and I'm sorry if the truth is scary.
But truth is stranger than fiction, and you had better wake up.
I mean, the evil is spiraling out of control.
Now is the time to stand up for America.
We have got to do it now!
We could not wait any longer.
dan friesen
Certainly can't wait 18 more years.
jordan holmes
No, no, no, no.
It's got to be done now.
It's got to be done now.
dan friesen
So I'm sorry that I claimed that Alex made things up.
I forgot that he said that he doesn't make things up.
jordan holmes
No, I think he's got a good case for libel.
dan friesen
Yeah, probably.
So here's something that Alex is making up.
unidentified
Sure.
alex jones
The average doctor giving you the shot is mandated by the AMA.
It's not a law, but he will try to bully you into it.
How dare you question him?
The AMA says it's good.
It must be good.
The AMA is a corporate body owned by the military industrial complex.
What?
unidentified
It's compartmentalization.
alex jones
Only the people working at the vaccine plants at the higher levels, only a few hundred, know what they're doing, and they're all CIA.
What?
unidentified
Many of them are Nazis, ladies and gentlemen.
alex jones
What?
unidentified
Literally.
alex jones
I'm late.
We are under attack, ladies and gentlemen, and you've got to face the facts.
dan friesen
All right.
jordan holmes
That escalated three levels very quickly.
AMA.
No.
You thought it was doctors.
Bullshit.
Military industrial complex.
dan friesen
Sure.
jordan holmes
What's that?
No.
You thought it was military industrial complex?
Uh-uh.
300 people know the real truth.
dan friesen
About vaccines.
jordan holmes
What's that?
You think it's just 300 people?
No.
It's 300 Nazis!
dan friesen
CIA Nazis.
jordan holmes
CIA Nazis!
dan friesen
Literal Nazis.
I just also like to see this in, like, sort of relationship with Alex complaining about everyone calling him a Nazi.
Yes.
He calls everybody Nazis in the past.
jordan holmes
You are...
Seatbelts.
Seatbelts are a problem.
dan friesen
Well, but that's because they are.
jordan holmes
That is true.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
That's all right.
dan friesen
And his history has borne out that he is taking it much more seriously in the present.
jordan holmes
It seems like it.
dan friesen
Anyway, as we discuss on pretty much every 2003 episode, one of the things I'm most interested in is trying to figure out if Alex believes he's fighting the literal Christian devil.
jordan holmes
Yes.
dan friesen
And I'm still not sure.
unidentified
Damn it.
dan friesen
Although this gets me a little closer.
jordan holmes
Okay.
alex jones
Everything is just bonkers, ladies and gentlemen.
We are under massive attack by what can only be described as pit of Hades, say, panic.
Force Hitch.
I mean, it just freaks me out every day to do this show.
I cannot believe how insane things have gotten.
dan friesen
That was getting so close to the I Gotta Quit vibe.
jordan holmes
That was.
That was really close.
dan friesen
But yeah, it can be described as pit of hell forces.
unidentified
Yeah.
dan friesen
It's not good enough.
jordan holmes
That's not quite there.
dan friesen
Damn it, it's close, though.
jordan holmes
That's not quite there.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
And even though he said Massive Attack, the song is named Angel, not Devil, so we can't go that angle if we want.
dan friesen
Maybe he's a big fan of Tricky.
jordan holmes
Could be.
Could be.
dan friesen
Also, Teardrop.
jordan holmes
Yep, yep, there was that one.
dan friesen
Theme song from House.
jordan holmes
Didn't they do the entire soundtrack for a Jet Li movie?
dan friesen
Probably.
jordan holmes
He was a dog.
Jet Li was captured by a British gangster and he was raised as he had.
I think Morgan Freeman was in that one.
dan friesen
I bet you a dollar they're on the Snatch soundtrack.
jordan holmes
Oh, they're on the Snatch soundtrack, my friend.
Don't you dare say they're not.
dan friesen
Even if they're not, they are.
jordan holmes
They are, yes.
Spiritually, they are the Snatch soundtrack.
dan friesen
Yeah, so Alex has this caller coming in.
To talk about seatbelt stuff ending up in ransacking at the armory.
unidentified
But...
alex jones
We're about to go to Bill McFallin, who's in Alabama, who has seen these massive military checkpoints with the black helicopters the whole nine yards.
We've gotten these on video in Texas, but they're intensifying it.
It's been going on since before 9-1-1, and during the click-it-or-ticket system, the Army-directed people into the National Guard armory.
That's coming up in just one moment.
But first, ladies and gentlemen, I want to tell you about HerbalHealer.com.
dan friesen
That sucks, but it's also like, alright.
There's no passion behind it.
It's clearly paid programming or whatever.
It's clearly an ad.
I don't think that that's unethical.
I think it's a little bit disjointed somewhat.
Whatever.
It's how you would expect ads to work in a radio show.
Yes!
And the reason that I'm playing it, even though it is more like, here's a topic we're going to get into, before we get to that, I want to talk to you about a sponsor.
Right.
I'm playing that because that's not how he does it.
jordan holmes
No, that's...
dan friesen
In later times.
It's so eroded.
jordan holmes
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's almost like a 1950s TV show where they would cut in with an actual actor from the show and be like, I know we're having a grand time watching this thing going on, but first let me tell you about Thompson's...
Yeah, yeah.
dan friesen
I also think that Alex's sales pitch is a little underwhelming.
alex jones
Ancient knowledge that's been passed on.
They've got books for your region on naturally occurring treatments and cures.
It's ridiculous.
I'm looking at their catalog here, folks.
This thing is 100 pages long.
They've got natural remedies to get the parasites out of your body that most people have.
Apple Cider Vinegar Plus, Formula One, Super X, Herbs.
Folks, it goes on and on.
Correspondence courses.
It goes on and on and on.
Just get the free catalog or you're insane.
dan friesen
It doesn't feel like someone who's super familiar with Super X. I like whatever you're doing an ad read in the middle of it.
jordan holmes
You get mad that you have to continue doing the ad read.
It just goes on and on.
dan friesen
It's a hundred pages, this catalog.
jordan holmes
It just goes on and on.
You're insane.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
dan friesen
So this guy calls in, or this guest, because this guy might as well be a fucking caller, but he's a guest.
He's a bona fide guest who has some experience with the Click It or Ticket campaign, I guess.
jordan holmes
That takes you to the armory.
dan friesen
I don't know if this guy actually...
I mean, he definitely didn't say that he did.
jordan holmes
Well, I would imagine that would be hard.
dan friesen
So, I...
I was listening to the details of this guy's story and from everything I can tell there was just like a traffic stop.
jordan holmes
Sure.
dan friesen
And he didn't have to stop.
unidentified
Oh.
dan friesen
But other people did.
Okay.
And Alex makes it a little bit racial.
unidentified
Okay.
alex jones
We were allowed to pass through.
unidentified
Although we drove very, very slowly after the stop.
alex jones
Yeah, they just randomly picked cars out.
They're saying they stopped the Volvo with the old people.
unidentified
They stopped the Volvo with a very old couple in it.
alex jones
And as we drove slowly past them...
For those who don't know, they will have CIA FEMA operators, the type of listeners you've seen in the road to tyranny in Kansas City teaching a classroom of police that, quote, Christians...
Founding fathers are terrorists, so what if they have to die?
We have the training manuals, constitutionalist homeschoolers.
If you look conservative, and we've seen these happen, if you've got a giant turban on your head, you speed through.
The FEMA directors on the ground will direct the young troops and the police to go after middle America.
This is training them.
dan friesen
That uh-uh middle America was a little telling there.
jordan holmes
Uh-uh middle America.
Going after uh-uh.
Middle America.
dan friesen
Also, that clip is about a minute long and it begins with this guy who's the caller saying that he went right through the checkpoint.
I didn't hear the part where he said I was wearing a giant turban.
jordan holmes
Well, I mean, that's assumed with all of those conversations, just because if you are driving through Austin, you know the only way to avoid the cops is by wearing a turban.
dan friesen
This guy's not in Austin, to be fair.
He's in Alabama.
jordan holmes
He's in Alabama.
Traditionally, I have not seen turbans treated well in Alabama.
dan friesen
Well, you haven't been to a checkpoint.
jordan holmes
That's true.
I have not had a clicketer ticket in Alabama.
dan friesen
So yeah, this interview is the definition of why is this happening?
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
I don't know.
You went to a checkpoint.
You saw a couple of old people get pulled over.
And now, look, I mean...
jordan holmes
I had a small percentage chance of receiving a ticket, so Alex is going to turn this into a vast racial conspiracy to destroy white people.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
dan friesen
Basically.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
That sounds about right.
dan friesen
So there's another story that Alex is trying to make people scared about, and it has to do with fingerprint scans being used for school lunches.
And we'll talk about that a tiny bit after he pretends to be very emotional about it.
unidentified
Sad.
alex jones
Imagine 20 years ago making some 1984 movie or Brave New World movie, you know, a PHX 1138 type film.
Where the kids, imagine a future movie.
Imagine if they'd have made America with a K with Christopher Stopperson and where the communists take over.
Imagine the movie, the kids having to thumb scan to get food.
You'd have been, oh, that'll never happen.
Imagine that nightmare future.
And now there are dozens of school districts that we know of in Texas that are doing it.
It's happening in England to get library books, to get food.
Oh, man.
unidentified
I mean, come on!
alex jones
And simultaneously it's going in the driver's license facilities, the banks, the grocery stores people, from Kansas to New York to Texas.
Come on.
You want to fight these people?
dan friesen
The only way to solve these problems are to promote Alex's products.
jordan holmes
It just seems almost too easy.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
It seems almost too easy to defeat the globalists.
dan friesen
All roads lead to that bottleneck of the solution is free publicity for Infowars.
jordan holmes
It's really convenient for him.
dan friesen
So this story about the fingerprinting, this wasn't mandatory.
Students could choose to use a PIN number.
Which is...
They're right.
They can choose that if they want.
Apparently, this is a really good system for school lunches for a couple of reasons.
The first is that it streamlines overcrowded school lunch lines, which is a problem in many overcrowded schools.
The second is that by making the transaction uniform in appearance, you completely eliminate the stigma that many kids feel if they're on lunch assistance programs.
And the concerns were addressed.
A copy of the student's fingerprint is connected to a unique identifier, but the stored data isn't the actual fingerprint.
Also, quote, parents who do not want their child fingerprinted may obtain an opt-out form.
jordan holmes
Of course.
dan friesen
None of this...
I don't know.
I just don't care.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
I don't know why this is...
The most pressing issue in the world.
jordan holmes
Your argument to me can never be, can you imagine making a sci-fi film in the 70s and thinking, oh, they'll use their fingerprints to get lunches.
That's nothing to me.
If every time I use my fucking credit card, I tap it against a thing and it references a ridiculous amount of information about me in an instant and then comes back and they know it all.
No one cares.
dan friesen
The notion of...
Creating a database of children's fingerprints is a little bit fucked up.
jordan holmes
Sure.
dan friesen
And that's not what they were doing.
And secondarily, it was also fucked up.
This is a concern that I think is very legitimate.
If you keep that all on file, that seems like something someone could hack.
jordan holmes
Yeah, totally.
dan friesen
But that concern is also addressed in not storing the fingerprints, but storing as numerical identifiers.
Perfect.
And so, you know, it's not like these concerns weren't something that the people who put this system into place didn't think about.
jordan holmes
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it does seem like all too often many of the complaints that Alex brings towards any kind of system are things that you could just address.
dan friesen
Well...
jordan holmes
And instead of being like ultimate flaws in the system, they're just like bugs that you can work out.
dan friesen
The real complaints that he has, or the ones that are based in reality, are things that people are aware of and other people are conversing about in...
jordan holmes
Reasonable, rational tones.
dan friesen
Based in reality kind of ways.
The things that are nonsense that he's yelling about are all just things to be appeals to the emotions of the audience in order to bring them closer to that bottleneck that gets them to making a hundred copies of his movie.
jordan holmes
Jesus.
dan friesen
And you gotta do it, man, or else.
alex jones
I want you to get the videos.
And I want you to make a copy when you go to work in the morning and a copy when you go to sleep at night.
Two copies a day.
Two dollars a day and a fifty dollar VCR.
I want you to get the videos.
They're $25.95.
Order three or more of any of the nine films.
They drop down to 20. I want you to do it now.
It's waking people up.
We've got to save this country.
Do it now.
Please make the call.
Get in the fight, or it's over, folks.
dan friesen
Get in the fight by reproducing videos to give to people as free promotion, or it's over.
That's awful.
jordan holmes
Oh, man.
For an initial investment of $50 and just $2 a day, you can make sure that Alex Jones will be richer than you can imagine.
Can you just open your heart?
dan friesen
This sales pitch is not compelling.
Can you change it to Saving America?
Because then it's going to work.
jordan holmes
If you don't make this $2 a day sacrifice...
Click it or tick it.
Soldiers will come to your home, rip your children away from you, take them to a 70-acre...
dan friesen
High schoolers with submachine guns in gray uniforms.
jordan holmes
And Daleks with guns wandering the streets.
It's chaos!
For just $2 a day, though.
dan friesen
So Alex does talk a little bit about 9-11 stuff during this period, but not in any way that I feel like, we're going to go ahead and cover this now.
But one of the things that I find really fascinating...
He's listening to how his tone is so different from the present.
When he's asked direct questions like, what happened with 9-11 now?
He'll be like, you know what?
I don't know.
There's not a lot of questions.
In 2003, he's like, I know everything.
I know names.
jordan holmes
He made a movie about it.
He made multiple movies.
He should know about it.
unidentified
He wrote a book.
jordan holmes
He should know everything.
Everything about it.
dan friesen
Yeah.
He's like, I know everything.
Look, we got him dead to rights.
We have all the proof.
Now in the press, he's like...
Yeah, I think I kind of forgot.
jordan holmes
It is interesting that he's in a place where it's like, somehow he exists in a space where we've learned less in the intervening time from when he started.
We've somehow forgotten all the information.
dan friesen
About what should be the most important thing for him to understand inside and out.
jordan holmes
Your entire career is based off of this thing.
dan friesen
I find myself...
Every now and again remembering that in the present day he doesn't answer direct questions about it, and it gets really funny.
It's one of the things that makes this very tolerable.
Another thing that makes this tolerable, Jordan.
jordan holmes
Have we hit the collar that you're excited about?
dan friesen
Yes, we have.
Mic the fuck down.
alex jones
Grant in Minnesota.
Grant, you're on the air worldwide.
unidentified
Speaking of out of control, I was recently just surrounded by the military.
An unsigned search warrant looking for bombs and explosives.
I was lured away from the court by activists on false charges.
And while I was there, I have Siberian tigers on my property.
jordan holmes
What?
unidentified
While I was there, the military surrounded the place.
jordan holmes
What?
unidentified
As they were confiscating my tiger cub, the military were high-fiving each other and laughing.
alex jones
Was this in the newspaper?
unidentified
No.
alex jones
We need to call the newspaper.
That's very newsworthy.
dan friesen
Yeah, no shit.
Okay.
jordan holmes
Are you telling me that all that happened is we just missed out on Tiger King by 20 years because nobody was listening to Alex Jones' show?
Is that what's really going on here?
dan friesen
This is not Joe Exotic.
Yeah, but I was like, holy shit.
You can't get calls like this on regular shows.
jordan holmes
No, you cannot.
dan friesen
You have to have a crazy show because you'll get crazy calls.
jordan holmes
You cannot get this call from Howard Stern.
dan friesen
And if you did, it would be an actor.
jordan holmes
Yeah, it would be bullshit.
You wouldn't trust it.
dan friesen
There's something about this that I just couldn't resist getting to the bottom of.
I was like, I've already spent a bit of time preparing this episode.
This is towards the end of May 29th.
Fuck it.
Starting over.
jordan holmes
I don't care.
It's time for you to save that tiger cub.
dan friesen
Exactly.
jordan holmes
You've got to save that tiger cub.
dan friesen
So here, there's a caller on Alex's show who had a Siberian tiger taken away from him in a raid.
jordan holmes
That's got to be in some newspaper somewhere, right?
dan friesen
There's a red alert.
jordan holmes
That's got to be something.
dan friesen
For me, it's like, no way.
I had absolutely no idea where to go with this, but I used some clues.
I was able to find something that looked promising.
So this caller says that he's in Minnesota.
Honestly, how many Siberian tiger seizures could there possibly be in Minnesota every year?
jordan holmes
I don't know.
dan friesen
So I found an article in the Albert Lee Tribune from January 2003 about a raid on a house where a female baby tiger was taken, quote, because the owners did not have a permit for possessing the wild animal.
This seems like a winner.
jordan holmes
It seems close.
unidentified
Yeah.
jordan holmes
It seems close.
It's sounding right.
dan friesen
The problem though is that the owner of this tiger is a 17-year-old kid who said that his 15-year-old sister is the pet's owner.
I don't know much, but I don't believe this caller is 17. No.
Then, I read this little nugget in the Tribune article.
Quote, Peter also emphasized the past record of the child's father, who has also lived in the house, saying it indicates the family's inability to provide appropriate care for the tiger.
The father was barred from having a pet by the court in October 2001 as a penalty for a cruelty to animals conviction.
However, the child said his father is not living at the residence anymore.
I'm intentionally not using these people's names because as I was getting into this, I had no idea if they are the people who are involved in talking to us.
But it was like, how many raids resulting in the confiscation of a baby tiger went down in the first few months of 2003 in Minnesota?
I can't imagine that the number's higher than one.
jordan holmes
And now we know that this is a family business.
dan friesen
I found a follow-up article that includes some other bizarre details.
Apparently, that whole thing, the tiger seizure, was set in motion because the child, quote, had scratches and bite marks and was falling asleep in class.
When asked what was up, he, quote, told a teacher that he lived with a tiger and it smelled bad.
Police searched the house and found a malnourished 35-pound tiger cub as well as a bunch of urine Very sad.
jordan holmes
Poor tiger.
dan friesen
I was completely obsessed with this story by this point, so I had to keep looking around.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
If this was the story of this person who's calling into Alex's show, I can match the story to the caller.
It was very exciting to me.
unidentified
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
jordan holmes
I can see.
I can see.
It's palpable.
dan friesen
So I was able to find a list put out by PETA of all Tiger Cub-related incidents in the United States, and guess what?
This was not the Tiger case that prompted this call to Alex's show.
jordan holmes
Wow.
dan friesen
I was able to find Grant, this caller, on the list from PETA.
So that means in the first five months of 2003, there were two Tiger Cub incidents in Minnesota.
What are the fucking odds?
To be fair, though, I do want to make this clear.
The guy who was keeping the Tiger Cub at home with his kid, the story we just talked about, did buy his Tiger from this caller.
So there is a connection.
jordan holmes
I...
Knew that there had to be some kind of connection.
dan friesen
Yeah, you had to know.
jordan holmes
Man, that's just awful.
dan friesen
So this guy is named Grant, and he ran a business called Tiger Zone, and he's also pretty full of shit about how this didn't make any news outlets.
The reason he's in trouble here is that in March 2003, one of his tigers, quote, Jesus Christ!
Yeah, so Tiger Zone was a place where people could come and look at exotic animals.
jordan holmes
Yeah, of course.
dan friesen
There had been reports of people being attacked by his cats in the past, but people had been reluctant to press charges until this incident, which led to the downfall of Tiger Zone and a police search of Grant's home where they found some guns.
This would not be the end of Grant trying to hurt people with tigers.
In 2005, he was arrested after a woman who was employed cleaning up Yeah.
Anyway, this guy's lying to Alex about the circumstances of his run-in with the police.
And yes, Jordan, you brought up Tiger King.
After the success of that documentary, Grant's nephew tried to kickstart a documentary about this whole thing, but it apparently didn't take off.
And also, in the Kickstarter, it says, this is not just because Tiger King happened.
jordan holmes
Yeah, it sounds like that's exactly what you would say if it was just because Tiger King happened.
dan friesen
I think that there's probably a very interesting story to what happened with this guy.
Because I did watch the trailer for his documentary.
And I think that there's probably some experiences of people who are involved that are worth hearing about.
unidentified
Sure.
dan friesen
I don't know if it's this guy's daughter or who the person is, but there's someone who's in the trailer talking very passionately about how hard it was to watch people take away these tigers that she knew and cared about as friends or pets.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
And how they were, you know...
Treating them very harshly?
I think that's a valuable thing to hear about, and people...
I don't know.
But this guy, he wasn't lured to court by false charges, whereupon the military, looking for bombs, took his tiger cub.
jordan holmes
Yeah, yeah.
dan friesen
Anyway, I would say that the fact that he sold a tiger to this person who was keeping it in their house and the tiger was peeing and shitting in the house and recklessly around this child, it means that he's not necessarily doing due diligence and vetting who is able to adopt these animals.
And that to me is a red flag.
Along with the multiple people who were attacked by his animals.
jordan holmes
Man, all kinds of shit's a red flag.
I mean, just like, hey, private exotic animal zoo is the biggest red flag I can think of.
dan friesen
I don't know if that's actually the case.
I mean, I can understand why you think that, and I think a lot of times it is.
But I don't want to stigmatize people who do actually take care of animals.
jordan holmes
No, sure, that's awesome.
dan friesen
Yeah, but a lot of times in order to make enough money to provide Of course!
I think that there are people who do that responsibly and within the parameters of it's not nuts.
jordan holmes
I agree.
And I would say that it's probably more than the others.
I would say there are more people who do it responsibly than irresponsibly.
At the same time...
Still a red flag to me.
That's one of those industries where it's not, I mean, and it's not even like I think it's evil or malicious or anything.
It's just like there should always be somebody, there should always be a neutral third-party observer on the ground at all time being like, that's not okay.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
That's what it is.
dan friesen
And there is.
jordan holmes
It's one of those industries where you can't even have, like, any self-reporting is just not possible.
dan friesen
There are regulations, but it probably needs to be better.
Yeah.
For reasons of human safety and the welfare of the animals themselves.
jordan holmes
Yeah, what that guy was doing to that fucking tiger and his kid just is fucking disgusting.
dan friesen
Right.
And again, just to be totally clear, that is not the caller.
jordan holmes
Different guy.
dan friesen
Although the guy did sell the animal, which is, you know, you're implicated a tiny bit for not being...
Like, if you're fucking selling a tiger in Minnesota...
You should do a lot of background work on who are you selling this to?
Can they possibly take care of a fucking Siberian tiger?
jordan holmes
Are they a person who's going to put the tiger in their basement?
If so, you don't get a tiger!
dan friesen
Surprise!
So Alex talks to this guy and he's very excited about this story.
jordan holmes
Oh, of course he is.
dan friesen
Because he thinks that there's no media coverage of it or whatever.
I think he thinks, like, oh, I got a fresh lead here on some government abuse that's going on.
jordan holmes
Breaking news, yeah.
dan friesen
And so, like, this guy tells his story, or his version of it, and Alex just accepts it unquestioningly.
And I think, like, this is kind of bad.
alex jones
So what exactly happened to you, sir?
Describe what developed.
unidentified
Activists were, all they have to do is say somebody got scratched, and they'll come in, and all somebody has to do is lie to the police.
And this girl lied in court five times on the stand.
alex jones
So it was an endangered species grabber went and lied in court?
unidentified
Yes.
alex jones
I know, I've seen those stories in the press.
And so what happened?
The troops hit you and hit you hard.
dan friesen
So, yeah, this 16-year-old who got attacked by one of his cats just lied.
unidentified
Yep, yep.
jordan holmes
She lied in court five times and in writing three times, so the story was exactly the same every time, and that's how you know she's lying.
dan friesen
Well, I mean, like, hey, you know, this is an interesting way to present a story to Alex Jones.
Alex should not just accept immediately, oh, they're lying about what happened, because maybe someone got attacked by a lion.
I'm sorry, a tiger.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
I think that it's unquestioningly accepting this guy's version of the story only serves to use them as a prop to push the government's out of control and want to take your Tigers narrative, which is silly.
jordan holmes
Yeah, and there's a bit of a credibility gap.
There's a bit of a credibility gap.
dan friesen
Yeah, I think also there's just an inherent issue with...
I know that it's 2003 and Alex isn't as...
Gross a figure in the public consciousness as he is now at this point.
But this guy saw fit to call Alex and talk about this story.
And that's an indicator.
jordan holmes
Yeah, that tells you what kind of reaction he's looking for at the very least.
dan friesen
Yeah, or where he would go to get the story out.
jordan holmes
Where am I going to get a positive spin on this story?
Because it won't be anybody legitimate.
dan friesen
Yeah.
Gotta get those tigers.
unidentified
Yep.
dan friesen
Anyway, that was a fun little path of trying to figure out...
I had so many walls I ran into trying to sort out what happened here, and the issue is there were too many...
Kernels of information.
I'm like, there's no possible way I can't figure out who this guy is.
unidentified
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
dan friesen
That I just had to keep pushing.
jordan holmes
Look at how specific this has to be.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
And it happened four times?
That's not possible.
That's not possible.
It can't.
No, it can't.
dan friesen
It's so weird.
Like, there's not other...
There aren't other years where multiple instances of tiger incident happened in Minnesota.
jordan holmes
Look, I know that America has the most...
Concentrated number of Tigers just because of private ownership, but it's not like a Minnesota thing.
dan friesen
Right?
Like, I'm looking over this list, and in 2000, this list from PETA, there were two incidents regarding tigers in Natural Bridge, Virginia.
But that's because they both happened at the same zoo.
jordan holmes
See, there you go!
That makes sense!
It does.
unidentified
Sort of.
dan friesen
It makes sense.
It's so nuts that there's two different...
Separate stories in Minnesota.
I mean, granted, I guess the fact that he sold it makes them connected stories.
jordan holmes
Right.
I mean, you know, but it does make sense.
If you've got a disreputable tiger zoo operator who is willing to sell cubs, you are going to find out you have more than one incident about tigers in your region very soon.
dan friesen
That is probably a truism.
So, here Alex complains about how you'll be arrested for pissant stuff, like in Germany.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
If you don't open your mouth at the dentist, your parents will be arrested or something.
jordan holmes
Yeah, and then a tiger will bite you.
dan friesen
And then Alex says something really fucked up.
alex jones
Binding and arresting parents in Germany and England if they refuse to open their mouths to the dentist.
They are doing stuff in Ohio, in Pennsylvania.
They take five-year-olds and do genital checks.
I caught a Lesbo ring doing it in one area.
You all heard about that.
dan friesen
A what?
jordan holmes
A what?
dan friesen
Yeah.
unidentified
What is that?
dan friesen
That caught me a bit off guard.
unidentified
For what purpose?
jordan holmes
To whom?
And who are they?
dan friesen
Also, even leaving aside whatever the reality of this story is, why are you articulating it this way?
Why is that the way you're...
jordan holmes
That doesn't make it...
Boo.
unidentified
Boo.
dan friesen
So Alex has a hour-plus interview with a guy named Michael Haga.
And I don't know who this guy is.
He apparently wrote a book that I can't find even by Googling the name of the book.
jordan holmes
That's not good.
dan friesen
I don't know how to spell his last name.
jordan holmes
That's not great.
dan friesen
Haga?
How do you spell that?
So many ways.
jordan holmes
Could be any way.
dan friesen
Yeah.
I tried a number of different spellings.
jordan holmes
Yeah, E-H.
dan friesen
I don't know.
And I tried to figure out just like what the bottom line about him was, but I wasn't really that interested, so I don't really mind that I didn't figure it out, because he's just kind of a guy who is the standard New World Order talking points.
Just kind of someone who's playing a game of boring ping pong with Alex.
There's hitting the ball back and forth until...
jordan holmes
I find it fitting.
That he didn't get enough traction from being on Alex's show to penetrate the consciousness to the point where he's even Google-able.
So it makes more sense for him to definitely not even penetrate onto our show.
alex jones
True.
dan friesen
And I think that I probably would ignore his appearance because it's really boring until they end up taking calls.
unidentified
Oh!
jordan holmes
Now you're talking.
dan friesen
Things do not go well.
unidentified
Mr. Hey Guy, I first started listening to you back around 1992-1993 on the American Freedom Network.
Uh-huh.
And I listened to you religiously back then.
I was working in a bank myself, handling the mutual funds and annuities and other insurance products for the bank.
And I took your advice.
I got out of the market when I was setting, the Dow Jones was setting a $3,300.
And I bought $410, $15 gold, and I'm still waiting for my gold to come back, and the market's been to $11, $6, and back and forth.
Bought a few of your books, and I put them up on my bookcase.
They're right beside my copies of The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey.
So you said in that book that you're a little bit premature.
I guess you were about seven or eight years on the peak of the market.
I guess what I'm hearing you say today, Mr. Hagin, with all due respect, is anybody that reads Alex Jones' Infowars.net or Infowars.com and stays abreast of the current.
Mainstream publications and stuff.
I'm not hearing anything new out of you, Mr. Hegel.
I'm still waiting for the $3,000 to $5,000 gold.
Well, have you been watching gold?
Yeah, I've been watching it.
I've been watching it for the last nine years, you know.
Well, I haven't recommended it that far back.
Oh, yeah, you were on American Freedom.
I listened to you religiously back then and would call into your talk shows.
alex jones
Well, didn't they start in 1995?
unidentified
What, the...
jordan holmes
Me on...
unidentified
Yeah, I wasn't even back on the air back then.
Oh yeah, you were.
American Freedom Administration, I guess.
alex jones
Well, sir, I believe that organization started in 95. I'm not saying you're...
unidentified
Well, they changed their name in 95. They used to be something else.
I forget what it was.
alex jones
Okay, well, let me just tell you something.
The Davos, Switzerland people said they were going to plunge the dollar.
Almost four years ago.
dan friesen
Shift to a talking point.
unidentified
Yep.
dan friesen
Yeah, so this caller is not happy with Michael Haga.
jordan holmes
I like it.
I like it.
I am in.
dan friesen
And he is unflappable.
jordan holmes
No, he does not seem to give a shit.
dan friesen
No.
I listen to your show.
I know the things that you said.
unidentified
Hey, buddy.
jordan holmes
Hey, come on now.
dan friesen
Nice try.
jordan holmes
You've been lying to me for nine years.
I have several dollars worth of gold to prove it.
dan friesen
Yeah.
So they don't let him talk too much more and just sort of bicker about gold a little bit.
Sure.
And then they address the question more like once he's gone.
unidentified
Yeah.
dan friesen
A little bit of like, yeah, perhaps maybe I was a little bit early on things, but I think as a whole, if you look at the total thing, you know, whatever.
Sure.
I was like, okay, that's fun.
I like that.
jordan holmes
I want the salty guy to stick around if you're going to have a little conversation.
dan friesen
Well, they unfortunately take another call.
unidentified
Oh.
alex jones
All right, let's take a call.
Let's talk to John in New York.
John, last caller from Michael Haga.
Go ahead, sir.
dan friesen
Yeah, Mr. Jones.
unidentified
Protecting Mr. Haga, as you did from the last caller, was noble of you.
alex jones
But we read his book.
unidentified
I'm calling you from the economics department at Syracuse University up here in Syracuse, New York.
Some of my students have read Mr. Haga's book and used it as a reference.
Mr. Haga needs to go back to read his book, Mr. Jones.
jordan holmes
Oh, now that's a one-two punch that they were not expecting.
unidentified
No.
jordan holmes
That is so funny.
dan friesen
Another caller.
jordan holmes
That is so funny.
dan friesen
Like, fuck you, Michael Hager.
jordan holmes
One more caller.
Hey, we're going to go.
Last caller for Michael Hager.
Fuck you!
Ah, well, that's going to be it for Michael Hager.
unidentified
I'm sorry.
dan friesen
Calling you from the economics department of Syracuse University, and Michael Hager can go fuck himself.
So I wanted to play more of this caller, but there isn't much of it because it just deteriorates into yelling.
Alex just yells over him and doesn't allow any points to be made.
Creates a false version of the things that he's saying in order to be like, I don't even know what that guy was saying!
He's nuts!
That guy was nuts!
And maybe, just maybe, Alex is still being very nice to Michael Haga in this interview and everything, but maybe...
Some of that negative response has something to do with why we don't know who he is.
jordan holmes
That could have something to do with it.
dan friesen
Yeah.
Maybe the audience, not thrilled with the idea of this guy being on, and Alex will take note of that and not have him back on as much in the future.
Because I also, honestly, if I were Alex, I wouldn't have him on.
And not because, just strictly from the negative reaction, but he isn't bringing much else to the table that you don't get from.
What Alex is saying, or anybody else he could have on.
He's like, oh, the Federal Reserve is bad.
Oh my god, I can't get a hundred other people to say that.
So the benefit of having him on is kind of dwarfed by clearly the negative phone calls.
And I thought that was pretty fun.
jordan holmes
That's so fun.
dan friesen
At the end of this episode, the 29th, just being this, like, pile on Michael Haga and a caller who had his fucking tiger taken away.
jordan holmes
So good.
unidentified
What fun.
jordan holmes
What a good day.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
What a good day.
And he doesn't think it is!
But it's a great day!
dan friesen
You can't, like, you can't prepare for what you're gonna get.
Alex Jones in 2003 is like a box of chocolates.
jordan holmes
That is so...
I would almost imagine if I was planning a show where I knew Alex was going to have a gold guy on, I would have a giant button with an X on it for if an econ professor called.
Just like a button I could run to, press, technical difficulties, just a thin line, just...
dan friesen
I agree with you, but from Michael Haga's presentation of himself, he's not like a super gold guy.
He's not one of those guys who's like a lot of Alex's other people who are strictly gold people.
jordan holmes
He's not a Chapman.
dan friesen
No.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
But he is apparently had some opinions about gold over the years.
It's unclear.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
Yeah.
dan friesen
They didn't let that one caller speak as peacefully, and I think if they had, I'd have a better sense.
Or if this guy was Google-able at all.
jordan holmes
Right, right.
Well, I imagine from what that guy said is he was invested in the Dow when it was up high, and the guy was like, it's gonna collapse, and you should put it all into gold.
Gold's going to skyrocket up to $3,000 an ounce or whatever it is.
unidentified
Yes.
jordan holmes
And then you'll be a billionaire, and the guy was like, the Dow is at $11,000, dickhole, and gold is at fucking nothing!
dan friesen
Yeah, or it's up a little bit, but it didn't move.
Nearly as much as...
unidentified
Yeah.
dan friesen
That's the sense that I got for sure.
And that does seem like the kind of thing that people in the right-wing space especially...
jordan holmes
It happens to them a lot.
dan friesen
Yeah.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
Like Alex in Nigerian Princes, right-wingers and gold scams are always together.
dan friesen
Yep.
They walk hand in hand.
jordan holmes
Oh, yeah.
dan friesen
So, Jordan, we've come to the end of this adventure in 2003 and...
Some of that stuff was fun.
But I also think it's very valuable to recognize these little glimpses where Alex speaks a little bit more about his positions that we kind of got the sense were admirable, like his opposition to the death penalty or preference for drug legalization.
These things are things that you can agree with, I guess, in terms of like the end result of them.
Sure.
unidentified
But you can't agree with how you get there.
dan friesen
Yeah.
unidentified
And because you can't agree with how you get there, you actually can't agree on the end result.
dan friesen
Because for me, I think the end result of opposition to death penalty execution is opposition to it.
Full stop.
Right.
unidentified
For Alex, clearly that is not the case.
dan friesen
Because we can see that his opposition is based in a distrust of...
Some people who are running the federal government, and if those circumstances change, then he is now totally fine with executions.
And he's fine with executions on a state level.
So, like, there isn't actually agreement.
He is, for all intents and purposes, a pro-death penalty person.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
dan friesen
Just, he has some...
doesn't like Bush or Clinton.
jordan holmes
Yeah.
I mean, the thing that gets me about that, though, is that it's like, because he's so malicious, And so, I suppose, fungible on just about anything.
Like, no matter what it is you agree with him on, he doesn't care about anything other than...
Finding a way to give himself and white men more power.
So even if you can't agree with him on an issue and then come together or even work together or anything towards that, because if he's given any access, he's going to take whatever access he's given and funnel it towards the point of white male dominance.
So even, you know, it's like there's not even an issue that you can talk to him about because his only issue...
Beyond all the takes on the news of the day, the end result of all of this should be white men running everything, me specifically.
dan friesen
Yeah, and you even get that from other issues that he ends up covering during this time.
It's like he's complaining about these clicker ticket things, and it's like, well, they have these stops, and they only stop white people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's your concern?
jordan holmes
Yep, sure.
dan friesen
All right.
jordan holmes
Great.
dan friesen
He was talking about immigration a little bit, and like...
His concern about immigration rules, like, they're gonna, you know, it's like, all of your jobs are gonna be, you're gonna make less.
All of it does.
jordan holmes
There's ghost towns in Germany that they're bringing immigrants into to run, like, he even said they're replacing, you know, it's like, Jesus Christ.
alex jones
Yeah.
jordan holmes
We get it.
You're a white nationalist.
dan friesen
All bottlenecks of his ideology go there, bottlenecks there, and everything about action and specific things that can stop.
Any of this is promote my shit.
jordan holmes
Yep.
dan friesen
And then eventually, of course, once he starts selling pills...
jordan holmes
There we go.
dan friesen
Cash, cash, cash, cash.
The only solution to globalism is...
jordan holmes
Supplements.
unidentified
Yep.
Yep.
dan friesen
And...
Bad documentaries.
Anyway, Jordan, we'll be back.
But until then, we have a website.
jordan holmes
We do have a website.
It's KnowledgeFight.com.
dan friesen
We're also on Twitter.
jordan holmes
We are on Twitter.
It's at KnowledgeFight and at GoToBedJordan.
dan friesen
Yep, we're also on Facebook.
jordan holmes
We are on Facebook.
If you're down on the side, you could please find a local charity or bail fund in your area to help out people doing God's work right now.
dan friesen
We'll be back.
But until then, I'm Neo.
I'm Leo.
I'm DZX Clark.
I'm Daryl Rundis.
No grandchildren for you!
alex jones
Andy in Kansas.
You're on the air.
Thanks for holding.
andy in kansas
Alex, I'm a first time caller.
unidentified
I'm a huge fan.
I love your work.
Export Selection