Today, after too long a time since Part 1, Dan and Jordan get back on track with trying to follow the path of Bill Cooper's coverage of the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. In this installment, the gents gain some extra insight into Bill from his biography, learn about one of Bill's listener's relationship with their dad, and reveal what Dan learned that made him dance around his apartment.
| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
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unidentified
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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys. | |
| Knowledge fight. | ||
| Dan and Jordan. | ||
| Knowledge fight. | ||
| I need money. | ||
| Andy in Kansas. | ||
| Andy in Kansas. | ||
|
unidentified
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Stop it. | |
| Andy in Kansas. | ||
|
unidentified
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Andy in Kansas. | |
| It's time to pray. | ||
| Andy in Kansas. | ||
| You're on the air. | ||
|
unidentified
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Thanks for holding us. | |
| Hello, Alex. | ||
| I'm a first time caller in my future. | ||
| I love you. | ||
| Hey, everybody. | ||
| Welcome back to Knowledge Fight. | ||
| I'm Dan. | ||
| We're a couple dudes who like to sit around and drink novelty beverages and talk just a little bit about Alex Jones. | ||
| Oh, indeed we are, Dan. | ||
| Jordan. | ||
| Jordan. | ||
| Quick question. | ||
| What's your bright spot today? | ||
| Okay, here's my bright spot. | ||
| What's your bright spot? | ||
| Alternative milks. | ||
| Are those racist milks? | ||
| Is that what those are? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| I've always been a 2% guy or a whole milk guy, but I've been experimenting lately with the milk substitutes. | ||
| And I'm very excited about it. | ||
| I haven't hit a snag yet. | ||
| All pretty good. | ||
| I've gone with the almond milk and now oat milk. | ||
|
unidentified
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Oat milk. | |
| And both have been winners. | ||
| They're pretty good. | ||
| Serious question. | ||
| What can you not make into milk? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I looked at the shelf and there's so many things. | ||
| There's so many things. | ||
| I have a macadamia milk that I'm going to try eventually. | ||
| So nuts get turned into milk all the time. | ||
| There's cashew milk too, yeah. | ||
| That sounds wild. | ||
| And then there's like, I think I saw a hemp one. | ||
|
unidentified
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A hemp milk? | |
| What? | ||
| How does milk even work now? | ||
| Hazelnut milk? | ||
| I think almost any nut makes milk. | ||
| You just squeeze it. | ||
| See, that's the image I have. | ||
| That brings me back to Louis Black's bit about soybean juice and that whole thing. | ||
| The whole factory is just really strong guys with cashew in their hand. | ||
| Squeeze this fucking... | ||
| Yeah, I was always really averse to anything that wasn't just cow milk. | ||
| Right, right. | ||
| And now I'm realizing there's a whole world out there of possible things to try that might conceivably be healthier. | ||
| There's kind of like a feeling that I have, like I'm not going vegetarian or vegan or anything like that. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| But like leaning a little bit closer to that is something that probably I want to do as I age. | ||
| It's better for the environment, for your health, etc. | ||
| The whole thing. | ||
| Definitely. | ||
|
unidentified
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I say eating a pile of goat cheese. | |
| Eating a pile of goat. | ||
| But yeah, being able to sort of take that attachment away of the milk. | ||
| Because I do love milk. | ||
| And so that's kind of nice. | ||
| That's great. | ||
| How about you? | ||
| My bright spot, Dan, you'll notice I'm wearing a nice little yellow shirt with an iCloud print on it. | ||
| This is made by one of my partners. | ||
| Friends. | ||
| It's a nice looking shirt. | ||
| It's very good. | ||
| He's got an Etsy store called Flooding Factory and it's fucking fantastic. | ||
| He's a really talented artist. | ||
| He's incredibly overeducated. | ||
| Went to one of the finest art schools in the country. | ||
| Juilliard? | ||
| No, that's music. | ||
| Berkeley? | ||
| No. | ||
| That's also music. | ||
| I think it's the Rhode Island School of Design which apparently has a huge fight with Chicago art schools. | ||
| It's a disaster. | ||
| But yeah, I got one of these and it's absolutely fantastic. | ||
|
unidentified
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That's great. | |
| I just, I really like the shirt. | ||
| Yeah, it does look good. | ||
| That's a nice yellow shirt. | ||
| Cool. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| Bright spot. | ||
| Hey. | ||
| Thrilled. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So, Jordan, today we've got an interesting episode to go over, and we'll get down to business on that here in a moment. | ||
| But before we do, we have to take a moment to say thank you to some folks who have signed up and are supporting the show. | ||
| So, first of all, HRH, I'm guessing Her Royal Highnesses, or His Royal Highness. | ||
| It could be. | ||
| King James VIII, thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Thank you so much. | ||
| I was going to go with human resources. | ||
| Hello? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Could be. | ||
| Richard H., thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Thank you. | ||
| That's R-H. | ||
| Yes, it is. | ||
|
unidentified
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So H-R-H-R-H. | |
| His Richard H. Next, Kirsten P., thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Next, Kirsten. | ||
| Next, AJ, thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Hi, AJ. | ||
| I don't know how to pronounce this. | ||
| It's all one word. | ||
| D.L. Rohe Newell. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Thank you, D.L. Rohe Newell. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Next, Stephen D. Thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Thank you, Steve. | ||
| And then next, Ruk T. That's R-U-H-K. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Thank you, Rook T. And Underwater Man of the Emerald River. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Thank you very much, Underwater Man of the Emerald River. | ||
| I like that. | ||
| Yeah, and finally I'd like to say thank you to a couple people who donated on an elevated level. | ||
| We appreciate that very much. | ||
| So... | ||
| Kazeril, thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a technocrat. | ||
| And Valerie W., thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a technocrat. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Crikey, mate. | ||
| That's fantastic. | ||
| Have yourself a brew. | ||
| How's your 401k doing, bro? | ||
| All right, we got to go full tilt boogie on this, Watson, all right? | ||
| Let's just get down to business. | ||
| We ain't making that money off that heroin. | ||
|
unidentified
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Why are you pimps so good? | |
| My neck is freakishly large. | ||
| I declare... | ||
|
unidentified
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Infowar on you! | |
| Thank you so much, Valerie W. and Cazero. | ||
| Yes, thank you very much. | ||
| To the both of you. | ||
| Yes, if you're out there listening and thinking, hey, I enjoy the show, I'd like to support what these gents do, you can do that by going to our website, knowledgefight.com, clicking the button that says support the show, we would appreciate it. | ||
| Very much so. | ||
| Or if you'd like to, you could take that generosity, tie it up with a bow. | ||
| I'm just... | ||
| You're doing great. | ||
| Keep going. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| You gotta just fucking push through. | ||
| I've heard a lot of... | ||
| Do you remember so many inspirational comedians who've said something like, you know what? | ||
| If you don't know where the bit is, just push through it. | ||
| Just keep talking. | ||
| Trust yourself in the bit. | ||
| Come on, Dan. | ||
|
unidentified
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You can do it. | |
| Go to your parents' house. | ||
| Find the cabinet where they keep last year's Christmas paper. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Wrap up that generosity and give it to a local charity. | ||
| See, that's perfect. | ||
| You landed it. | ||
| Come on, you nailed it. | ||
| I'm not made to do this. | ||
| I'm not meant to do this. | ||
| I can't think of ways to wrap things. | ||
| There's only so many. | ||
| There are only a few ways to wrap things. | ||
| Oh, I gotta figure out how to do this better. | ||
| Anyway, we would appreciate it if you'd take that generosity and support the local charity in your area that's helping people in need. | ||
| We would very much appreciate it, yes. | ||
| So, Jordan, before we get to the episode, we gotta take a moment to look in at the year of the... | ||
|
unidentified
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Seltzer! | |
| Alright. | ||
| A lot of progress. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| A lot of progress. | ||
| You putting almond milk in your seltzers now? | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| No. 143 seltzers down at this point. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| We're coming up... | ||
| Yeah, very good. | ||
| Yeah, thrilled. | ||
| I'm realizing two things as I get into today's seltzer update. | ||
| The first is that I'm getting really sick and tired of everybody having the same flavors. | ||
| Almost everybody has the same damn flavors, and it's annoying. | ||
| Fair. | ||
| It's all just berry, and everyone's got a grapefruit, and none of them are good. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Lime, lemon. | ||
| Those are usually pretty good, but, you know. | ||
| Effervescent tastes. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| I really am yearning for something different and some creativity. | ||
| I've hit a little bit of... | ||
| The slog of that. | ||
| Anybody making seltzers out of spiders? | ||
| And I think part of that is really leaning into me really appreciating this week some just plain seltzers. | ||
|
unidentified
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Like Perrier plain. | |
| When you've eaten all of Ben& Jerry's, sometimes you just like to go back to a nice Haagen-Dazs vanilla. | ||
| Vanilla's great! | ||
| Perrier Plain got in at 73. That's pretty damn good. | ||
| 73 for just a plain water that they put some carbonation in. | ||
| And then very unexpected, I found a brand called Liquid Death. | ||
| It's a really aggro can. | ||
| That is aggressive. | ||
| That came in at a 66. It was really crisp, really refreshing. | ||
| Just plain seltzer water. | ||
| It's nice. | ||
| So did it give you seven days before somebody's going to come out of your TV? | ||
| Conceivably, yeah. | ||
| That sounds right. | ||
| It's going to be Ezio. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I'm going to climb out of my TV. | ||
| Everything is permitted. | ||
| Except bad seltzers. | ||
| Yes, exactly. | ||
| Second thing, maybe this is unpermitted. | ||
| I believe on our first time that we started talking about seltzers, I had a confession, and that was that I didn't like spin drift. | ||
| Right. | ||
| I've tried a couple more spin drifts, and they're not as bad as I think. | ||
| Oh, no. | ||
| I think I originally just had some bad flavors. | ||
| I think I got the first ones that I tried. | ||
| We're just some shitty flavors, but I've had a couple like the raspberry lime was pretty good. | ||
| Can't remember exactly what it came in at. | ||
| What do we got? | ||
| Oh, 57. That's not a great score, but I expected it to be shit based on what I thought about Spindrift. | ||
| That's fair. | ||
| Not as bad. | ||
| So congratulations. | ||
| Spindrift, not as bad as I thought. | ||
| Slightly exceeds expectations. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Still not a compliment. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| But okay. | ||
| Yeah, that's about it for the seltzers. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| So, Jordan, today, this episode that we're doing here is not an Alex Jones episode because Alex was still out of the studio. | ||
| Still out of the studio. | ||
| Well, I believe he came back over the weekend. | ||
| We're recording this on Sunday. | ||
| And I think that he did some coverage of Trump's rally from last night. | ||
| A resounding success. | ||
| I haven't read the news. | ||
| Oh, huge. | ||
|
unidentified
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Huge. | |
| Huge. | ||
| Great question. | ||
| Has Bill Hicks been doing shows again? | ||
| No. | ||
| Although that is an interesting theory. | ||
| I'm guessing that he just took the week off. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I imagine he has a lot to get in order with his house. | ||
| Not his literal house, but his metaphorical house. | ||
| I would assume there's just some kind of a need to take care of business. | ||
| Some administrative stuff. | ||
| Yeah, who knows. | ||
| Maybe he'll explain when he gets back. | ||
| But I figured that that would not be really enough for us to really bank on being an episode by the time we need to get to recording. | ||
| So, we'll save that for Wednesday, and today, I'd like to start off this episode with an explanation. | ||
| About a month ago, we started covering Bill Cooper's coverage of the Oklahoma City bombing, which I had sincerely intended to become a running weekly investigation. | ||
| I was so confident that we were going to keep moving forward that I teased that I'd found something that made me dance around my apartment, which to this point has not been revealed. | ||
| It is the computer chip and a homeless man of our show. | ||
| That's not fair. | ||
| And that tease wasn't fair. | ||
| And I'm sorry that people have had to live in that confusion. | ||
| I promise that that mystery will be solved today. | ||
| The issue was that the very next week from when we started that, we learned that Project Camelot was going to a subscription model. | ||
| And as such, I felt an obligation to check in on that. | ||
| Camelot's been a large part of this podcast's history, and it's been an important pressure release, as well as an interesting case study in how so many of these different fields of weird conspiracy share a ton of DNA. | ||
| So Camelot filled the next week's open slot for a non-Alex episode. | ||
| And then that was the week that the police murdered George Floyd, sparking protests and an important movement that runs directly counter to what Alex Jones wants to see in the world. | ||
| It felt critical that we keep a sharp eye on the present day of his show, and I know that you and I had conversations about how it would feel bizarre to do an episode and it not be about Alex's take on the evolving situation, the protests, all of that seemed like it was important to chronicle it, even if Alex's response to it was not necessarily as interesting as you might have expected. | ||
| I'm pretty sure we had this conversation at the same time, which was... | ||
| It's going to be disappointing. | ||
| Probably. | ||
| It's just probably going to be disappointing. | ||
| I don't recall if we necessarily had that conversation, but we definitely could have. | ||
| It's a mind melt. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So that took on a life of its own. | ||
| And also, through those couple weeks, I was trying to move, which took up a ton of my time. | ||
| Our episode from Friday about Owen's dumb push-up contest was the product of multiple influences. | ||
| The first was that Alex had been out of studio all week. | ||
| The second was that I really needed something kind of light to discuss since we were recording just a few days after I moved, and I was still working on settling into this new place, and Owen's dumb push-up contest fit that bill amazingly. | ||
| It is empty. | ||
| I would probably have rather done a Bill Cooper Oklahoma City episode. | ||
| Like I even said on the episode, this isn't the kind of meaty thing I want to be doing. | ||
| But I just couldn't swing it, for a couple of reasons. | ||
| The first was a time issue. | ||
| Cooper episodes are dense, and they require a lot more prep time. | ||
| The second issue is probably more important, and that was that I needed to finish reading Bill Cooper's biography, Pale Horse Rider. | ||
| Our show focuses on Alex Jones, who doesn't have a biography written about him yet, so the idea of reading one about another person we were covering seemed strange to me. | ||
| It almost felt like cheating. | ||
| I really enjoy the process of discovery that comes from having no idea what's going to come up, and we're diving in and learning as we go. | ||
| That works alright with Alex or these space weirdos, but I realize that with Bill Cooper, not consulting that text is essentially missing a big part of the story. | ||
| There are important pieces of context in that biography that I wouldn't ever have gotten from just listening to the hour of the time, and those pieces of context are pretty important. | ||
| So I felt it would be irresponsible for me to move forward and do another episode about Bill Cooper without taking in that biography and really sitting with it. | ||
| This leads me to what I would want to give as a Sort of sizable clarification. | ||
| We were wrong to give Bill the benefit of the doubt as it relates to him being a gigantic piece of shit. | ||
| Oh, great. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Why do we always find that out? | ||
| I knew about him being a bit of a drunk and an asshole, but I was unaware of how violently abusive he was to his wives. | ||
| This, among other revelations, have caused me to question my stance of like, hey, Bill's bad, but at least he's not Alex. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| I was unaware of a lot of the depths of some of the stuff in his personal life, and... | ||
| That was wrong. | ||
| I don't know if it was wrong, it was incomplete of us. | ||
| The problem is, we're dealing almost exclusively with tremendous monsters. | ||
| So we're so far below the Mendoza line of just general being a fair human being, that simply because we speak about you on our show, chances are you should assume that they're the worst human being in the world. | ||
| Maybe so, but it's a pretty big part of his life. | ||
| For sure. | ||
| One of his wives out of a moving car while she was holding their daughter. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Well... | ||
| No. | ||
| Like, he's a fucking monster. | ||
| Yeah, that's a monster. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That's a monster. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I mean, like, the level to which he was that is something that... | ||
| I don't know if we played down, but we weren't aware of the depths of it. | ||
| Sure, sure, sure. | ||
| And I feel bad about that. | ||
| And now, knowing that... | ||
| Like any glowing biography of Norman Mailer, you're wrong. | ||
| I would like to now, knowing this stuff, make it an apology for not being aware of this earlier. | ||
| Overall, I think that book, Pale Horse Rider, does a really good job of demonstrating how much of a liar Bill Cooper was without outright making accusations. | ||
| Beyond these things, there was one piece of information in that book that's very relevant to our current exploration about Oklahoma City. | ||
| Which I highly doubt I would have learned about from listening to Bill's show. | ||
| We'll get to that down the road and also the thing that made me dance around my apartment as we go through this. | ||
| Also, I recommend that book very highly. | ||
| It's pretty good. | ||
| Alright, I'll read it now. | ||
| I'm excited. | ||
| So we're going to start this off where we left off. | ||
| We left off a couple days after the bombing and our next episode is on April 24th. | ||
| If you don't recall, Bill Cooper had largely... | ||
| Decided that it was a false flag. | ||
| Trying to make patriots look bad. | ||
| Standard operating right wing militia kind of narrative. | ||
| False flag. | ||
| One of his big pieces of it was that seismograph that he was misinterpreting. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That's alleged to show two bombs. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And then misunderstandings about people who had gotten on police scanners and said that they thought that there was another bomb in the building. | ||
| Bill has just taken those things and used them as definitive proof. | ||
| Examples of incuriousness leading to disaster. | ||
| And conclusion jumping run amok. | ||
| Monsters. | ||
| And so we jump in here as Bill begins on April 24th, 1995. | ||
| I'm William Cooper, and you're listening to the Hour of the Time. | ||
| Well, we have a much larger audience tonight, folks, thanks to the propaganda press. | ||
| And a lot of the new audience are the press, who I absolutely refuse to even talk to except to tell them to go themselves. | ||
| And I will continue that. | ||
| What did he mean? | ||
| They are scum. | ||
| They have no moral values. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They have no ethics. | |
| And they certainly wouldn't know the truth if it hit them in the head. | ||
| Bill's on shortwave and he does a better job of censoring himself than Alex does. | ||
| It's pretty remarkable. | ||
| So there's such an interesting phenomenon that seems almost entirely consistent, which is that when there's terrifying, seemingly random tragedies in this country, people flock to whoever is most loudly calling it fake. | ||
| Alex got a huge surge out of 9-11 denial, and we've seen him explicitly discuss how his traffic increased in the days after the Boston bombing when he was yelling about it being a false flag. | ||
| We've also seen him discuss lately how his COVID-19 denialism led to an increase in viewership. | ||
| This makes some sense, but it also says something really sad about people. | ||
| It's scary to process things like a bombing or a virus outbreak, and we crave easy answers. | ||
| A pandemic is terrifying, and there's no easy fix to it, so it becomes very appealing to listen to the person saying that the virus itself is no big deal and that all the actual problems could be solved by killing the globalists. | ||
| A random bombing carried out by domestic extremists is super terrifying, because no matter how much the police might try, they'll never be able to uncover and stop every possible plot people may come up with. | ||
| It's just a reassuring thought to believe that, you know, there's an evil cabal of globalists who are orchestrating all of these bombings, and if they're just taken care of, the bombings will magically go away. | ||
| Yeah, if you had to grapple with the reality that ultimately no one knows what's going on, the world is complete chaos, and really you can bully a lot of people who think they're powerful into doing whatever it is you want them to do. | ||
| So that's kind of scary. | ||
| That's a real bummer. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It is. | |
| It is terrifying. | ||
| Yeah, it's really terrifying. | ||
| In times of crisis, these kinds of narratives are an attractive crutch to reach out for, and I'm depressed but not surprised to see that people were behaving the same way back in the times of Bill Cooper. | ||
| It's unfortunate for the listeners because all they get is junk food narratives that mean nothing and go nowhere, but it's also bad for people like Bill and Alex. | ||
| They learn the wrong lessons from this kind of reinforcement. | ||
| They learn, whether consciously or not, that denying tragedy is something that draws, which definitely has been a lesson that screwed Alex over more than once. | ||
| Eh, well, personally, I think it's a bad idea to just immediately deny something happened. | ||
| That's just me, though. | ||
| That's an interesting angle that you have. | ||
| Prove your case. | ||
| Lately, I've been known for my hot takes. | ||
| I've been tossing them around left and right. | ||
| Hot takes like, hey, let's not kill people. | ||
| Jordan, that's a treat. | ||
| Prove it. | ||
| Shit. | ||
| I don't even know what you're wearing right now. | ||
| Shirt. | ||
| Prove it. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, knee-jerk denial of things that are really scary and providing easy answers and identifiable explanations for things. | ||
| It is an attractive thing, and it's just sad. | ||
| I mean, I don't know. | ||
| Like I said, it's a bummer, but it's expected. | ||
| I think it's really interesting just because deep down, regardless, you can hate authority or you can love authority, whomever may be in power at any given point in time, but what unites most people is just that I want to believe somebody is in charge. | ||
| I want to believe there's an adult in the room. | ||
| There needs to be an adult in the room, and there simply aren't. | ||
| Yeah, and I think that that is part of what's being exploited. | ||
| And then also, the way that it's done is... | ||
| Unearned confidence. | ||
| Totally, totally. | ||
| Just bullying. | ||
| Yeah, Bill and Alex both project themselves as like, we've done 20 years of research on all this and I know everything and, you know, all that. | ||
| Like, I know everything about seismographs and I can tell you that for sure there was two explosions. | ||
| You know, he doesn't know any of that stuff. | ||
| And if he was being completely honest about it, he'd be like, I don't know what this means. | ||
| This is... | ||
| Weird. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And that wouldn't draw. | ||
| That wouldn't get people's attention. | ||
| You need to speak authoritatively about things you have no business being authoritative about, and that will give people the false confidence that they need to put aside those feelings of fear and uncertainty. | ||
| Something nobody likes to hear is, let's wait until all the facts are in. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Ooh, no. | ||
| No, thank you. | ||
| That's no good. | ||
| No. | ||
| So, Bill's mad at the media. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| This episode is actually titled CNN Communist News Network. | ||
| Ooh, he got him. | ||
| And he actually has initials for all the news organizations, like National Broadcasting Communists. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| Perfect. | ||
| Just throw communists wherever there's a C. Like CBS's Communist Broadcast Service. | ||
| Friends of ex-communists. | ||
| Just come on, man. | ||
| Come on. | ||
| They have sold out for an opportunity. | ||
| To have their ugly mugs on your television set. | ||
| Somehow they think that's worth losing all their liberties for. | ||
| And, of course, the promise that if they're really good and do what they're supposed to do and echo the Marxist-Socialist party line, that they might get to have a retirement check someday. | ||
| Well, I hope they get it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I hope they get it, and I hope they get it. | |
| from the cause that they're working for because they will live to regret it. | ||
| Actually, folks, I don't really hope that they get it because if they do, it means the end of all of us and it means the end of liberty. | ||
| Ooh, that's bad. | ||
| You see, if we lose our liberty in this country, the whole world goes down. | ||
| That doesn't sound right. | ||
| We're the last bastion of freedom and we are the only ones who can save it. | ||
| That's just not true. | ||
| We're the only people left in the world with the right to keep and bear arms. | ||
| That's also not true. | ||
| That doesn't sound right at all. | ||
|
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|
No, that's not true. | |
| But you know what? | ||
| I was thinking about it, because it's demonstrably not true. | ||
| You can own guns in other countries. | ||
| But I think it's because of what his definition of right to bear arms is. | ||
| Sure, sure, sure. | ||
| I think that he has, and people like Bill, have such an absolutist view of what that right entails. | ||
| Maybe. | ||
| Maybe based on your definition, the U.S. is the only country. | ||
| But until you define your terms, I can't even argue with it. | ||
| No matter what, the goalposts will be moved. | ||
| You can already tell. | ||
| I suspect that. | ||
| So in this next clip, Bill says something as suspicious as we're the only country that can have guns. | ||
| Oh, I can just see the socialist puke twinging. | ||
| Twinging when they hear that. | ||
| You see, they don't want you to know that Nazi means socialism. | ||
| Nazi means national socialism. | ||
| Hitler was a socialist. | ||
| Nazi Germany was socialism. | ||
| That's right, folks. | ||
| You heard it right here. | ||
| You see, in this world today, they're trying to turn everything around so that wrong is right and right is wrong. | ||
| I don't know, man. | ||
| I think that any time you hear someone say that Nazis were socialist... | ||
| Bye! | ||
| Yeah, it's indicative of, like... | ||
| It's headline reading. | ||
|
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Yeah. | |
| Because, I mean, like, yes, it does. | ||
| Socialism isn't the name. | ||
| It's in the name. | ||
| Well, and obviously, since Democratic is in the name of North Korea's republic, we can assume that they have the right to vote. | ||
| I imagine they probably have the right to keep and bear arms. | ||
| Right, Dan? | ||
| I would think so. | ||
| I think so. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I mean, this is Dinesh D'Souza level stuff, quite frankly. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| It's the mark of somebody you should not be listening to. | ||
| That is as reasonable as believing that Americans for Progress is interested in progress or Americans. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| It's all in the name. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So, Bill gets to talking about Nazis. | ||
|
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|
Sure. | |
| And he lays out the history of the Reichstag fire. | ||
| And fine. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Whatever. | ||
| You got us. | ||
| I'm not interested in relitigating a lot of certain issues. | ||
| One of them is the Reichstag fire, and another is Waco. | ||
| When Bill brings up and starts yelling about Waco, I don't care. | ||
| I will talk about that on episodes that are about Waco. | ||
| I'm not doing that while we're covering the Oklahoma City bombing. | ||
| It's too much. | ||
| We're focusing. | ||
| So I'm not going to argue with him about the Reichstag fire right now, but I am going to take issue with how he uses it, and this is not great. | ||
| Goring immediately informed Hitler and Goebbels, this is a communist outrage. | ||
| One of the communist culprits has been arrested. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| Talk about speed. | ||
| Remind you of anything? | ||
| They're talking about people vaporized in Oklahoma City, yet they found immediately enough parts of a truck to identify those who rented it and make absolutely accurate photographic sketches and get them on the wire service. | ||
| So quick. | ||
| So, like I said, he's in the middle of reading basically an essay one of his listeners wrote about the Reichstag fire, and he's editorializing here to compare that, how that unfolded to the current situation with the Oklahoma City bombing. | ||
| What grade did he get? | ||
| The listener. | ||
| Well, I think the listener probably got an A, because Bill's grading, and he's not a hard teacher. | ||
| Okay, fair. | ||
| You provide him content, you get a pat on the head. | ||
| So, Bill seems to bring up two specific complaints. | ||
| One is that a suspect was identified too quickly for his taste, and two, it's absurd that they found an axle which led to the rider truck that Timothy McVeigh used for the bombing. | ||
| The story about the axle is actually pretty interesting, and you can find corroborating information about that find pretty much wherever you look. | ||
| There's an indie online piece from earlier this year where they interview Dennis Muntian, a firefighter who was a responder to the bombing, looking back on it 25 years later. | ||
| Muntean was 19 years old when he assisted in the response to the Murrah building, and if you read his account, you'll find this. | ||
| Quote, Muntean recalled, on his walk to the bombing site, he pointed to a truck axle in the middle of the road. | ||
| Twelve hours later, as he walked back to the bus, investigators were circling the axle and studying it. | ||
| He later learned that it was from the rider truck loaded with explosives. | ||
| This firefighter had seen the axle, which he didn't think was necessarily meaningful at all. | ||
| Could have been from another car in the area or whatever. | ||
| So that was when he was entering the scene, and it wasn't until later that that item was seen as significant. | ||
| It's not weird at all, really, that a destructive bomb could discharge something like a truck axle and have a completely different effect on other matter surrounding it. | ||
| It's how explosions work. | ||
| Yeah, it wasn't until Paradise City that anybody really cared about the axle. | ||
| Oh, come on, man. | ||
| All right. | ||
| I should be more supportive. | ||
| I'm going to take that one down. | ||
| I should be more supportive. | ||
| I'm going to take that one down. | ||
| That's payback for you not liking my sound drops. | ||
| Okay, fair enough. | ||
| Bill's making a nonsensical point here about how he thinks the axle should have been disintegrated or something like that. | ||
|
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Sure. | |
| It just doesn't mean anything. | ||
| In the real world, this axle was found and traced to a rider truck, which then led to a specific location that the truck was rented from. | ||
| The employee of the truck shop gave the FBI information and a description to make a composite sketch, which they then took around to all the businesses in Oklahoma City, ultimately finding a hotel where the staff recognized him and put a name to the face. | ||
| It went pretty quick because this was a crime that required around-the-clock work by all available agents. | ||
| Timothy McVeigh had already been arrested at this point. | ||
| He'd been pulled over by a state trooper 90 minutes after the bombing, approximately 80 miles north of Oklahoma City, which is about where you'd expect a guy to be if he was fleeing. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know, it's about the right distance. | ||
| I would have gone south, but I'm imagining because he was so racist, Mexico was out of the situation. | ||
|
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|
Might have been. | |
| Might have been. | ||
| Unclear. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| McVeigh was missing a license plate and was found to have a concealed weapon, so he was arrested. | ||
| And while he was being held, the word went out that the FBI had put a name to the sketch, and it was this guy. | ||
| It's pretty remarkable how quickly a suspect was determined, and it's a weird quirk that he'd already been arrested for a seemingly unrelated charge, but none of that proves anything nefarious. | ||
| The timing and causality of these events makes total sense, so I'm going to need to see stronger arguments here from Bill to be convinced that this is a New World Order plot. | ||
| You can yell about, like, oh, they found a guy so quick, it's like the Reichstag, how they fingered the commies, and it's just like... | ||
| It's not necessarily the same thing at all. | ||
| It does feel like everyone in this, when you go through this story, unlike so many others, it does feel like everybody is acting almost reasonably. | ||
| You know, like there's nobody who's doing something absolutely insane on the side. | ||
| Anytime you read about, like, Waco, who is doing something insane on the side? | ||
| The federal agents fuck up. | ||
| All of this shit happens all the time. | ||
| But in this situation, everybody's like, he bombed a federal building. | ||
| Let's get round-the-clock shit to find this guy. | ||
| I'm almost certain if you looked far enough, you could find probably some example of some botched... | ||
| The cops still planted a gram of weed on Timothy McVeigh, just in case. | ||
| You gotta plant something on him. | ||
| You can't prove that. | ||
|
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|
That's a Bill Cooper-ass theory right there. | |
| So, yeah, I mean, there's just these thin, flimsy analogs that he's trying to make with the Reichstag fire, and it's just no good. | ||
| It is unearned entirely. | ||
| And he goes on, because he talks about the motive. | ||
| Hitler controls some 250 seats, not a clear majority. | ||
| If he could wipe out the critical 100 communist seats, he would win his battle for power. | ||
| Nazi authorities had already raided the Karl Liebknecht House, headquarters of the Communist Party in Bland, but they had failed to incriminate the Communists in a revolutionary conspiracy as a pretext for silencing them. | ||
| They had to think of something else, because the date for a national election was fast approaching. | ||
| And so Hitler burned the Reichstag. | ||
| Blamed it on his political enemies and seized control of Germany and you know the rest. | ||
| And the same thing is happening here now. | ||
| This argument is dumb. | ||
| No, that's insane. | ||
| Yeah, it's the result of desperately straining to make connections between historical events and present circumstances. | ||
| It's one thing to say that Hitler blamed the Reichstag fire on communists in order to solidify his power and demonize his enemies. | ||
| But it's a completely different thing to claim that it's the same thing going on with Oklahoma City. | ||
| Bill Clinton became president in 1992 and was up for re-election in 1996. | ||
| After the 1994 midterm elections, the Republican Party had control of both the House and Senate, so presumably what Bill Cooper is trying to imply... | ||
| Is that Bill Clinton was trying to blame the OKC bombing on the right-wing extremists to take control of Congress in the 1996 election. | ||
| This did not happen, as the Republicans held on to their majorities in both the House and Senate, as well as their majority of governorships around the country. | ||
| Yeah, it's always nice to remember, when you look at our political system today, that once we were allowing Newt Gingrich to roam the earth with power, which is a terrible idea. | ||
| He comes up every now and again, and I'm like, whoa. | ||
| Right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Whoa. | |
| Right? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That guy. | ||
| Really? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Newt. | |
| Newt Gingrich? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| We allowed that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| Goddamn. | ||
| Narratives like the one Bill is putting forth here sound good if you're looking for a way to blame your political enemies for everything bad that happens, but at a certain point, you have to take a step back and recognize how none of the things that should happen if Bill Cooper is right ever happen. | ||
| The Clintons didn't use OKC to bring in a socialist dictatorship, and they didn't even win Congress the next year. | ||
| This should kind of leave... | ||
| This should lead you to question the conclusions. | ||
| He's just talking shit. | ||
| Here's my problem with his internal logic. | ||
| If he's painting the Nazis as a socialist regime with, as he would call it, a Marxist socialist doctrine, why is Hitler trying to get rid of the communists instead of allying with him? | ||
| I don't think I follow. | ||
| Well, he's saying that Hitler is an avowed socialist. | ||
| Right. | ||
| He considers Marxism and socialism to be equal and the same, I suppose. | ||
| So why is it that Hitler hates the communists in his worldview, wherein Hitler is also a communist? | ||
| Wouldn't it be possible to just wrangle him in and be like, hey, we're getting a communist system, and they're like, well, we don't like fascism, and he's like... | ||
| Or I'll kill you and they're like, we love racism! | ||
| I gotta be honest, I have no answer for that. | ||
| Yeah, right? | ||
| It doesn't make any sense. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It makes no sense. | ||
| Because you're saying that Hitler and the communists are the same people, but he's gotta get rid of them to take over. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's very smart. | ||
| Yeah, that's a good point. | ||
| I think he's a very smart person. | ||
| That's a good point. | ||
| I really, I legitimately, I try to... | ||
| You know, enter these people's minds to understand the logic and the thinking, and I don't know. | ||
| I think I could answer from Alex's perspective, but from Bill's, I don't know what he would say. | ||
| He would say that the communists and the Nazis are not actually of the same ilk, but they're being controlled by the same people to be against each other. | ||
| Ooh, that's smart. | ||
| That's what Alex... | ||
| That's what Alex would say. | ||
| But I don't know what Bill's take on it would be. | ||
| Because the way he's presenting it, it does seem contradictory. | ||
| Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. | ||
| I got nothing for you, man. | ||
| Fair enough. | ||
| So there's not a whole lot of development of the storyline of the OKC bombing in terms of Bill's conspiracy on this episode. | ||
| There's just mostly continuation. | ||
| And here on this 24th, we see him continue to talk about the... | ||
| The seismographs and the multiple sound waves. | ||
| So there's no mistake, and I'm not making this up, he clearly says, ladies and gentlemen, I don't care what the government says, these are clearly two separate and distinct events. | ||
| Both of the same magnitude and the same duration, parted by ten seconds. | ||
| Ten seconds. | ||
| He clearly shows us how to read this. | ||
| He shows us a train that passed close to the sensor. | ||
| He shows us normal traffic, heavy traffic, and then the two events. | ||
| Two separate and distinct explosions, not echoes. | ||
| The source is Dr. Lusa of the Oklahoma Geological Survey, Starkey Energy Center, University of Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma, and we received this information on the 21st. | ||
| of April at 120 to you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| Thanks for the time stamp. | ||
| Why isn't the communist news networks, why aren't they reporting this? | ||
| The government is lying, ladies and gentlemen. | ||
| To clarify, the media is not covering this because Bill's misrepresenting this information, not because the media is lying. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| The Oklahoman reached out to Dr. Ken Luza to get a comment about this, because Bill was going on and on about it on air. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| And from the article in the Oklahoman, quote, Luza said the second event recorded on the seismograph could have been a secondary reaction, which he referred to as a refraction effect, from the explosion at the federal building in Oklahoma City. | ||
| He said the reading could have also come from a quarry blast. | ||
| Lusa described the waves detected in Norman as surface waves. | ||
| He said without seismographic readings from two other locations, geologists cannot determine where the waves came from. | ||
| Sounds like the government is lying to you, John. | ||
|
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Sure. | |
| This mystery is solved eventually, as we discussed in our last episode, but that was what the Oklahoman was putting out then. | ||
| Having got comment from Dr. Lusa... | ||
| The Oklahoman reached out to Bill Cooper to get his response, which was predictable. | ||
| I'll see you in hell! | ||
| Quote, contacted for comment Friday, Cooper said, The press has been discredited in the eyes of all patriots. | ||
| Don't you ever call me until you learn how to print the truth. | ||
| God damn it. | ||
| God damn it, Cooper. | ||
| What a dick. | ||
| This piece of information that Bill has latched onto as proof of multiple explosions is not true. | ||
| The foundation of his conspiracy is something that he's misunderstanding, and he's reinforcing his misunderstanding by misrepresenting the comments of an expert. | ||
| This is just bad work. | ||
| This is just bad work. | ||
| Yeah, if an expert says two things, refraction and I'm going to need the confirmation from two other sources, that means the government is fucking lying to you, Dan. | ||
| I don't care what the government says. | ||
| No, I don't give a shit what the government says. | ||
| I'm going to tell this person who listens to Bill Cooper's radio show and emails him constantly that I can tell you definitively the government is lying. | ||
| It's the only thing that makes sense to me. | ||
| I don't buy that. | ||
| Bill develops a little bit of another tendril of conspiracy here. | ||
| Very suspiciously, a lot of senior supervisory personnel were not at work that day. | ||
| We're not at work. | ||
|
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|
We're not at work. | |
| Why? | ||
| Who warned them? | ||
| What the fuck is this? | ||
| That's not even reported. | ||
| Who warned them? | ||
| That's rumor mongering. | ||
| Who warned them? | ||
| Here's how you know that this doesn't mean anything. | ||
| How many people is Bill talking about not being at work? | ||
| He calls them senior supervisors, but senior supervisors of what? | ||
| Bill has no specifics, just vague insinuations, which seems like it's counter to his motto of always doing your research and not passing along rumors. | ||
| Well, I mean, they were important senior advisors on account of they were the, how do we keep this building from being bombed advisors? | ||
| So that they were missing was kind of a tell. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, that's the one that's going to do it, I think. | |
| How can someone who pretends to be a just-the-facts kind of investigator get on his show and report that an unspecific number of senior supervisors for an unspecified agency weren't at work on the day of the bombing without substantiating that at all, then use the insinuation to assert that someone must have warned them not to come to work? | ||
| Even if we go ahead and assume that an uncommon number of supervisors were not in the building when the bomb went off, how can Bill prove that someone had to have warned them? | ||
| Is it not possible that some of them might have been in the field or on assignment? | ||
| Is it not possible that some might have called into work sick that day? | ||
| There's a ton of possibilities that Bill's just completely ignoring because the conclusion has already been reached in his mind, and the process of reporting on this story only exists to serve the goal of solidifying that conclusion. | ||
| Bill Cooper basically cosplays as a guy who's looking for the truth. | ||
| Sometimes it manifests in good ways, like when he scolds his listeners for bringing up unfounded nonsense, but in reality, those are not instances of him caring about the truth. | ||
| When Bill scolds his callers for bringing up rumors, that's really just him expressing his authority over the audience. | ||
| It's good research when he passes along rumors, but it's abhorrent and stupid when the listeners do the same thing. | ||
| It's basically cult leader stuff, where it's a sin for you to do something that's a virtue for me. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| It's deeply messed up. | ||
| Yeah, I was thinking he's less interested in the truth and more interested in controlling what the truth is. | ||
| It has nothing to do with searching for anything. | ||
| It has everything to do with being like... | ||
| This is concrete, and I know it. | ||
| And kind of like setting the terms of the search itself. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| We can have disagreements on very small, surface-level things, but if you come at me with anything like, it's not a false flag, I will kill you. | ||
| Yeah, and I'll accuse you of doing the same bullshit I do. | ||
| You're the communist news network. | ||
| Uh-huh. | ||
| So, in this next clip, Bill discusses the arrest of Timothy McVeigh, and this is messed up stuff. | ||
| And this brilliant explosives expert, who planned and carried out one of the most terrible crimes in the history of the country, speeds away in a car with no license plate, and he is expediting the speed limit to the point where he has to get caught. | ||
| And the officer stops him, notices he doesn't have a license plate, and begins writing a ticket, glances inside the car, and sees a concealed weapon? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It was a concealed weapon. | ||
| How did he see it? | ||
| Ooh, you got him. | ||
| The plot thickens. | ||
| This really begins to eat it, folks. | ||
| This guy made no attempt to get away, made no attempt to shoot the officer. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Whoa! | |
| So, first of all, Bill's playing games here about the idea that if a weapon is concealed, it'd be impossible for a cop to see it. | ||
| He's invisible. | ||
| That's ridiculous. | ||
| And the fact that Bill's going down that road is kind of embarrassing. | ||
| It's an indication of how weak his position is, and he's just trying to cast doubt and make the arrest suspicious. | ||
| There's something interesting going on here with Bill's claim that, you know, it's weird that he didn't try and kill the police officer, that Timothy McVeigh didn't try to kill him. | ||
| It's a little weird. | ||
| That's a real telling kind of thing that you expect someone to do. | ||
| It's weird. | ||
| Six years after the bombing, a right-wing media figure would tell a story about how they had met with Timothy McVeigh and an associate before the bombing. | ||
| The meeting ended with them telling him to, quote, watch Oklahoma City. | ||
| But one of the topics of conversation was what should McVeigh do if he's pulled over by the police? | ||
| Quote, just take the ticket and go on your way, was the advice McVeigh was given, to which he replied, quote, you don't think I should shoot them? | ||
| This was rebuffed, quote, why would you shoot someone over a ticket? | ||
| That right-wing figure was Bill Cooper. | ||
| Get the fuck out of here. | ||
| Do not say that to me. | ||
| Get the fuck out of here. | ||
| When Bill Cooper saw the sketch of Timothy McVeigh and saw that he was the main suspect for the Oklahoma City bombing, he had to have realized that he'd met that guy and he was pretty fucked up. | ||
| Bill had to realize that he'd seen McVeigh in possession of a bunch of copies of the Turner Diaries and that he'd been told to, quote, watch Oklahoma City. | ||
| According to Bill's own telling of the story. | ||
| That's a real... | ||
| I mean, I could see him narcissistically inserting himself into the story, but also, that's deeply, deeply fucked. | ||
| Yeah, this doesn't... | ||
| If that's true, that's really fucked up. | ||
| This doesn't seem like the right kind of inserting yourself into the story. | ||
|
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|
I don't know, I mean... | |
| I mean, you know, some people confessed to murders they didn't commit. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| It's true. | ||
| So McVeigh and his associate had been traveling on I-40 when they decided to stop in at Surplus and Stuff, the owner of which was a friend of Bill Cooper's named Tim Lesperance. | ||
| According to Pale Horse Rider, quote, Lesperance asked them if they'd ever heard of Bill Cooper. | ||
| That sounds Alex-y. | ||
| That's how the meeting came to happen. | ||
| Eventually, investigators learned that another man named Michael Fortier had been aware of the plot to blow up the Murrah Building, but had dropped out of the conspiracy before it came to fruition. | ||
| Pale Horse Rider includes a passage from an interview that Michael Fortier did in August 1995 with an outlet called The Outpost of Freedom. | ||
| Quote, what led to the bombing? | ||
| Hunt asked Fortier, who had backed out of the Murrah Building plot halfway through and later served as the state's star witness against his former compatriots. | ||
| Well, Fortier sighed, I can't say a whole lot, but we heard a lot of tapes and saw videos and read things. | ||
| There's this guy with a radio station in Arizona, Phil Cooper. | ||
| He kept calling people sheeple and was mad that they ain't doing anything to change things. | ||
| Well, we got to thinking, that's right, things need to change. | ||
| Tim really responded to that. | ||
| Bill's work of trying to build up a conspiracy theory that gets Timothy McVeigh off the hook is sloppy and desperate, and possibly on some level that could be motivated by a recognition that he knows fully well he's part of what inspired the bombing. | ||
| This is basically the same behavior that we see from Alex Jones all the time, and it's an important thing to understand. | ||
| While this is certainly not a universal thing, a lot of conspiracy theory operates as a way to cover up the unpleasant and damning parts of one's own community that you don't want to recognize and accept are real. | ||
| Alex constantly comes up with conspiracy theories to minimize and ignore white supremacist violence because he knows that his show operates on a white identity level that has a possibility of inspiring such acts. | ||
| Similarly, he knows that his extremist, gun absolutist rhetoric requires him to come up with conspiracy theories every time there's a mass shooting. | ||
| The reality of mass shootings and white supremacist violence are threatening to Alex's worldview, so it's important that those things be denied and explained away with conspiracy theories. | ||
| It's the globalists doing it. | ||
| They juiced somebody up. | ||
| It's mind control. | ||
| In the same way, Bill Cooper's entire thing is very threatened by the idea that someone who was directly inspired by his show and ideology could have bombed a federal building and killed tons of people. | ||
| It's the ugly conclusion of the rhetoric that he's put out, and Bill knows that, so this requires a conspiracy. | ||
| Yeah, that's... | ||
| I mean, I can't believe that. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Like, I could not live with myself. | ||
| Like, the idea that you could just go on with your show and just use denial, just basic denial, with the full awareness that... | ||
| This guy. | ||
| You knew this guy. | ||
| You met this guy. | ||
| Well, there's no indication that they knew each other well or anything. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no, no. | |
| I'm not saying that. | ||
| I mean, I would believe that initially, maybe Bill wouldn't immediately realize that this is the guy. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| But that would fuck me up forever. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| Jesus. | ||
| Bill wouldn't tell his story of meeting McVeigh until a few years later, but even here, mere days after the bombing, you can see the ripple of Bill's influence. | ||
| Timothy McVeigh could have shot the cop who pulled him over, and he might have gotten away. | ||
| But he didn't, because he was just pulled over for missing a plate, and as Bill Cooper had allegedly told him, why kill someone over a ticket? | ||
| And here on air, Bill is baffled by the decision that he very well might have advised Timothy McVeigh to make, and is using that decision as proof that McVeigh couldn't be the bomber, because if he was, he would have tried to kill the cop. | ||
| Whoa. | ||
| Man. | ||
| Inadvertedly inspiring the OKC bombing and inadvertently catching the OKC bomber. | ||
| Is a very strange existence to live. | ||
| That is real weird. | ||
| These are the things that are like, this is why I needed to finish the book before we could get back to business on this stuff. | ||
| Oh, man. | ||
| So, that is a mess, and this will develop a little bit as we go through the rest of this episode. | ||
| But before that, we've got to get to what made me dance around the apartment. | ||
| Mic down. | ||
| Larry Nichols on the Jazz McKay Show, WWWE, at 11 a.m. in Cleveland, identified one of the suspects from the artist's drawings as either Brown or Boyd of Mena, Arkansas. | ||
| And speaking of Mena, Arkansas, Hillary Clinton will be indicted. | ||
| My information is that she has already been indicted in secret, and it will be announced to the public sometime within the next week. | ||
| Yeah, so Larry Nichols is in play. | ||
| That was a fucking rollercoaster ride. | ||
| We start with Larry Nichols is in play, of course, and then we end with QAnon, Hillary Clinton has already been secretly indicted. | ||
| God, nothing ever changes. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| That's another thing that I want to really drive home. | ||
| Looking at this coverage of the OKC bombing, it's like... | ||
| It's less sophisticated in terms of the radio, whereas a lot of this propaganda is so much more media-savvy now. | ||
| Yeah, way more media-savvy. | ||
| But so much of it is exactly the same tricks. | ||
| God, you can sell it over and over and over again. | ||
| So I know we've been sort of wondering where the worlds of Bill Cooper and Alex Jones would intersect as it relates to Larry Nichols, and here we have it. | ||
| Part of me had hoped that Bill would be smart enough to not trust Larry, but as it turns out, if someone hates Bill Clinton, you just go ahead and believe whatever they say. | ||
| That was Larry Nichols' entire career. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Just like finding people who hate the Clintons a lot. | ||
| Enough to believe him. | ||
|
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|
Yeah. | |
| Back in the 90s, there just wasn't a conspiracy that didn't somehow link back to Larry Nichols somehow, which is awesome. | ||
| Because it allows you to laugh at pretty much everyone who took him seriously. | ||
| And unreal. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Unreal. | ||
| Also, like what you were pointing out, that thing about Hillary is fascinating, mostly because this is a meme that's recently been resurrected on social media and spread around by dum-dums. | ||
| Not just the QAnon, like this specifically. | ||
| Exactly what Bill is talking about. | ||
| We're all gonna die. | ||
| The Clintons at the time were in the middle of the Whitewater scandal, but Hillary wasn't set to be indicted, nor was she secretly indicted. | ||
| According to a 1995 article in the Washington Post, this theory was spread by a guy named Sherman Skolnick, a contributor at the Conspiracy Nation newsletter. | ||
| Skolnick was, quote, convinced that either Clinton's financial supporters or someone in the government ordered the bombing to obscure the fact that two days earlier, Hillary Rodham Clinton was indicted on two felony counts in the Whitewater probe. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Secret indictments are kind of a standard trope of conspiracy, as you can see from the present and from the mid-90s. | ||
| They're an appealing angle because there is such a thing as a sealed indictment, so you can craft all kinds of theories about them that feel like truth to people. | ||
| Yeah, I'm waiting to find out fucking Xerxes' son was secretly indicted, for God's sakes. | ||
| Could have been. | ||
| It's old. | ||
| It's so old. | ||
| It's so old. | ||
| The bottom line here is that Hillary was not indicted for Whitewater, and it has nothing to do with the Oklahoma City bombing. | ||
| This is just another weak attempt on Bill Cooper's part to do anything he can to take the blame off his big fan, Timothy McVeigh. | ||
| Man, that's nuts. | ||
| So this brings us to the end of the 24th. | ||
| And we jump in on the 25th. | ||
| And man, this was not a good episode. | ||
| This was a bad episode. | ||
| So it wasn't labeled very good? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| Only episodes with callers are labeled by quality. | ||
| Bill gets into, like, I only have a few clips from the 25th, because mostly it's him just rambling about militia. | ||
| Sure, sure, sure. | ||
| So in this next clip he talks about how these aren't militiamen. | ||
| Those arrested for the Oklahoma City bombing have not been charged, have not been tried, have not been found guilty of anything. | ||
| And in this country, you are innocent until proven guilty. | ||
| Unless you're Hillary, in which case you're already guilty. | ||
| None of them have been, or ever will be, connected to any militia in this nation. | ||
| They're not militiamen, they're not patriots. | ||
| It's fair enough to point out that people in this country are innocent until they're proven guilty. | ||
| The issue comes down to the fact that it's pretty obvious that Bill will consider these guys innocent long after and despite the fact that they've been proven guilty of the bombing. | ||
| He doesn't care about the process of law. | ||
| You're innocent even after you're proven guilty. | ||
| He's just using the idea of innocence until being proven guilty as a way to insist that they are, in fact, innocent. | ||
| It may be the case that Timothy McVeigh was not a formal member of a specific militia, but that doesn't mean he's not a creature of the same world of militias. | ||
| There's been reporting that shows that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols attended meetings of the Michigan militia. | ||
| Their then-leader, Norman Olson, told the Associated Press, These people were told to leave because of that kind of talk of destruction and harm and terrorism. | ||
| This naturally is the kind of thing that makes sense to say after someone bombed a federal building. | ||
| However, you may sound a little different beforehand. | ||
| Michigan Live pointed out that a year before the bombing, Norman Olson told a recruitment meeting, quote, if this country doesn't change, armed conflict is inevitable. | ||
| Yeah, well, there's that. | ||
| This is how it goes. | ||
| You bring in disaffected, angry young men with talk of armed conflict, then deny that you had anything to do with them when they follow through with those words. | ||
| This is a pattern that you see in right-wing propagandists pretty much across the board. | ||
| Infowars interviews Jack Posobiec about how scary Comet Ping Pong Pizza is, then they pretend they never got into Pizzagate stuff after someone shows up at Comet Ping Pong with a gun. | ||
| This is how it works. | ||
| On a more meaningful level, the fact that McVeigh may not have been officially in a militia is meaningless. | ||
| His beliefs lined up almost entirely with the beliefs of right-wing militias at the time. | ||
| He was largely motivated by the government's actions in Waco, which was a galvanizing point for pretty much all right-wing militias. | ||
| He had almost identical politics to all of them. | ||
| I don't like calling them militias. | ||
| Militias calls back to proud, you know, Minutemen kind of history. | ||
| I prefer to call them Civil War pre-enactors. | ||
| Like, they're just as lame as Civil War reenactors. | ||
| That's a good pun. | ||
| It just hasn't happened yet. | ||
| That's a good pun. | ||
| It's so annoying. | ||
| I'll erase your earlier bad joke for that. | ||
| No, I'm going to keep that one there. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So here's the only other clip that I have from this episode where Bill talks a little bit about Timothy McVeigh. | ||
| And this is where I'm totally convinced Bill knows that this is the guy that he had met. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| The one whom I have investigated, Timothy McVeigh. | ||
| Claims to have participated as a volunteer in a mine control operation in the United States Army and was implanted with a microcomputer chip. | ||
| He has been telling his friends this ever since he left the United States Army and nobody has listened. | ||
| He even claims that the United States Army could follow him by electronic surveillance of this chip and knew where he was all the time. | ||
| It's weird that Bill is bringing up this idea that McVeigh had a chip implanted in him, because this sort of thing apparently wouldn't require any research for him to know about. | ||
| From Pale Horse Rider, Then the withdrawn McVeigh spoke up plaintively. | ||
| He also had a computer chip implanted in his body, he said. | ||
| Cooper could touch it if he wanted to. | ||
| It was in his right butt cheek. | ||
| He really wanted me to confirm it was there. | ||
| "I declined for obvious reasons," Cooper said, suddenly turning sympathetic to the executed bomber. | ||
| "But I wish to this day that I had not been so squeamish and had personally checked his buttock to see if there was something there." According to Bill Cooper's own telling of the events, Timothy McVeigh himself Yeah. | ||
| So there are two possibilities here. | ||
| One is that Bill is reporting things that he got directly from McVeigh, and he's lying by omission by not telling the audience where that information came from because he knew that it would probably raise more questions than he'd like if it were known that he'd met with the Oklahoma City bomber who was in the process of, you know, he's in the middle of creating a conspiracy to defend the guy. | ||
| It wouldn't be a good idea to be like... | ||
| And listen, my buddy Timothy McVeigh over here, he was telling me that he had a computer chip in his ass and I wouldn't touch his ass because obvious reasons. | ||
| Look, he had a computer chip in him. | ||
| I know that because I met him and I'm also trying to desperately defend him. | ||
| This doesn't look good. | ||
| He claimed he was being followed, which was obviously true. | ||
| So that's one possibility. | ||
| But the other is that Bill's later story about meeting McVeigh could be totally made up. | ||
| Bay's claim that he had a chip in his buttocks as early as April 22nd, 1995, prior to this episode that we're listening to now. | ||
| Okay. | ||
|
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|
And it's conceivable that everything in Bill's story of the meeting is just stuff that he'd Whatever the case... | |
| Michael Fortier's interview, where he discussed how Timothy McVeigh really responded to Bill Cooper's talk about how people needed to actually do something, that's information that's not filtered through Bill, and thus it can be taken a little bit more seriously. | ||
| Bill may or may not have actually met Timothy McVeigh, but he definitely inspired him. | ||
| That's the conclusion that you really can't shake. | ||
| It's the only conclusion you can draw. | ||
| And it also, like, you know... | ||
| Believing Bill's story about meeting Timothy McVeigh is fucked up. | ||
| If that's true, it's fucked up. | ||
| Wild. | ||
| If it's not true, and he's making that up, what does that say? | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Either way, I really... | ||
| Because if you're making that up, it's almost like, hey, I want cred with the militias, which means the militias respect what he did, which means... | ||
| All of my lies about how it's not militias who want to do this is bullshit. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That is another, that is a complexity. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So we get in here, or we're about to jump to the 26th, but like I said, this episode on the 25th is just Bill rambling about how great militias are. | ||
| And it honestly has no connection to the present day or the bombing, really, outside of it being intensely defensive about people suddenly being a bit curious about what's going on in these militias. | ||
| I found myself zoning out almost entirely as Bill went on and on about how if you're an able-bodied person in Arizona between the ages of 18 and 45, you're a member of the militia whether you want to be or not. | ||
| It was all just stuff that I couldn't get myself to care about because even if that's technically true according to the Arizona Constitution, who cares? | ||
| What does that mean today? | ||
| Probably nothing? | ||
| Most likely nothing. | ||
| Man, you start reading state constitutions, you're going to find all kinds of weird shit. | ||
| If I'm automatically a member of the Illinois militia, let me say this right now. | ||
| They don't need me. | ||
| Are you sure? | ||
| No. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| I'm a conscientious objector to being in a militia. | ||
| You can't be. | ||
| Yeah, that's my plan. | ||
| You can't be. | ||
| How is this different than the draft, then? | ||
| If everyone's automatically conscribed into the militia to be called up if needed. | ||
| You're already there. | ||
| I don't know about this. | ||
| Anyway, I don't care. | ||
| That is most of what that episode is. | ||
| I just... | ||
| What a shit day. | ||
|
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|
It's on fucking CNN, the Communist News Network. | |
| By the way... | ||
| Everybody's going to fight now. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| Excuse me? | ||
| Yeah, tomorrow you're all going to show up at the war. | ||
| Everyone under 45, get a gun. | ||
| Goodbye! | ||
| So, Bill starts out the 26th on a bit of a down note. | ||
| Well, ladies and gentlemen, everything that I've been warning you about is coming true, and I hate it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, I mean it, I hate it. | |
| It had been my intent, my dream, my purpose in doing all that I have done and subjecting my family to all the suffering that they've been subjected to and spending all the money that we've spent upon this instead of upon ourselves to try to prevent any of this from ever happening by waking enough people So | ||
| that by sheer weight of numbers of educated, awake, intelligent, smart people could prevent all of this. | ||
| I have this overwhelming sense that somehow I failed. | ||
| You should. | ||
| I really don't know what to do about that. | ||
| Except to... | ||
| Continue in some manner to try to help bring this to some eventual resolution by hook or crook. | ||
| It's interesting, because we just recently saw Alex getting into this mode as the coronavirus, as the COVID-19 stuff, started to become more outside of his narratives, I guess. | ||
| More real than his narratives. | ||
| A lot of talk of... | ||
| We've lost this. | ||
| The globalists have won. | ||
| That kind of thing. | ||
| You're seeing the exact kind of similar response to Bill after realizing, yeah, Timothy McVeigh is going to be proven to be guilty of this. | ||
| That one's me. | ||
| Oh boy. | ||
| It's so interesting to see after a crisis point, after a really big thing that is maybe beyond your abilities to spin or to make all right, you realize, I've failed. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's strange because it's kind of their way of taking responsibility for it by absolutely not taking any responsibility for what happened and instead taking responsibility for something that is 100% fictional. | ||
| I am so sorry I have failed you. | ||
| We lost the fake battle. | ||
| Yeah, I have failed you. | ||
| We should have all woken up by now. | ||
| Is there a way of being like, ooh, I caused that bombing? | ||
| Fuck! | ||
| You know what? | ||
| That's a generous reading. | ||
| Yeah, it is. | ||
| Sorry, I should have assumed they're all psychopaths. | ||
| I would like to believe that it's the way of allowing that grief or whatever to process, but I'm not convinced it is. | ||
| No, I'm fair with that. | ||
| So, one of the things that I've come to realize as I listen to more and more of Bill's show is that his information gathering process is almost entirely just messages that he gets from listeners. | ||
| It's just letters. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And so, this is one that's like, you don't need to report everything. | ||
| You don't need to report everything. | ||
| From our station chief on the scene in Oklahoma City. | ||
| Did I dream that I heard this? | ||
| Did someone else say it? | ||
| Please find someone else who listens to National Public Radio's All Things Considered evening show today, and make sure that I am mistaken about this. | ||
| I hope I am wrong. | ||
| I thought I heard a professor from George Washington University, when being interviewed about the explosion of hate, say that we would have to choose between keeping and expressing our freedom of speech. | ||
| This is such a great manifestation of how bad this operation is. | ||
| Like, Bill fancies himself to be the head of an intelligence operation of the Second Continental Army of the Republic, and as such, he has the Citizens Agency of Joint Intelligence, or CAGI, which serves as his data-gathering team. | ||
| That's just his listeners who have paid him dues, sending him emails that he calls intelligence reports. | ||
| And here you can see the quality of the work that's being done by his station chief who has emailed Bill to complain about something she thinks she heard on NPR. | ||
| Something she... | ||
| Thanks! | ||
| She heard on NPR. | ||
| Dan, did I dream that Obama was president again? | ||
| Could somebody please confirm that? | ||
| I would like at least one letter confirming. | ||
| You, sir, are my intelligence operation. | ||
| That on this American life, they were like, by the way, Obama's still president. | ||
| So Bill's Oklahoma station chief and his source for a lot of his bombing reporting is a woman named Michelle Moore. | ||
| She had no training in journalism or intelligence gathering, being a ballet instructor by trade. | ||
| Moore liked Bill Cooper, so she paid her dues and signed an oath of allegiance to the Second Continental Army of the Republic and was named a, quote, second lieutenant of the intelligence service under Bill. | ||
| Plie, you sheeple! | ||
| On her commission papers, the general who was above Bill is, quote, listed as George Washington. | ||
| You kind of get the sense that Bill was running the entire Second Continental Army of the Republic and pretending there was a chain of command. | ||
| Basically, Moore cosplay. | ||
| It was the ghost of George Washington. | ||
| Moore would go on to write a 640-page book called Oklahoma City Day One that Bill thought was going to be his masterpiece. | ||
| It was going to definitively prove all these conspiracies based on thorough documentation of media lies on the day of the blast. | ||
| Bill insisted on expensive binding for the first edition, which he charged $60 for. | ||
| He sent for an initial printing of 500 copies, and he couldn't even sell that. | ||
| In Pale Horse Rider, one of Bill's friends says he, quote, still has several untouched boxes of the limited and signed first edition piled up in Cooper's old storage unit. | ||
| That sounds like every comedian's t-shirt. | ||
| Anyway, Michelle Moore is Bill's station chief in Oklahoma, who is where he's getting a lot of this information from, and, quote, in recognition of her tireless work. | ||
| Cooper promoted her from lieutenant to major. | ||
| Oh, well, that's really nice. | ||
| Hard to imagine how he got George Washington to sign off on that promotion. | ||
| This is a battlefield promotion, Dan. | ||
| Also, if you're going by officer rankings, this is a pretty big jump. | ||
| Second lieutenant is 01, whereas major is 04. So this promotion is skipping first lieutenant and captain. | ||
| Man, she went from four to six figures. | ||
| I'll tell you that right now. | ||
| My guess is that they were able to pull this off because the rankings are meaningless. | ||
| And also, I should tell you, Jordan, that I've just decided to make you a colonel for all the hard work you've done on this podcast. | ||
| A colonel? | ||
| Congratulations. | ||
| A colonel? | ||
| Colonels above major. | ||
| Nonsense. | ||
| Total nonsense. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| If you're a four-star general and I'm a colonel, this is real trouble right here. | ||
| There's a definite balance of power. | ||
| Yes, I agree. | ||
| Imbalance of power. | ||
| How did I mix that up? | ||
| We're going to have to deal with that. | ||
| All right. | ||
| So, I believe, I don't know, I think it was on our last episode that covered the Oklahoma City bombing coverage. | ||
| Some of these dispatches that Bill got about updates on the bomb seem to just be, I met a nice person. | ||
| 100%. | ||
| Like your mom writing you about her vacation? | ||
| Yeah, 100%. | ||
| And we get a little personal in this night. | ||
| So weird. | ||
| So weird. | ||
| So you can imagine my surprise, shock, and utter disbelief to hear the dreadful things coming from my dad's mouth since the federal building bombing. | ||
| In a short period of seven days, all of the years of his life have been erased. | ||
| And he is somebody else now that I never knew before and do not want to know at all. | ||
| He sounded to me like a clone of the mainstream media news broadcasters, and the words he was saying were treasonous. | ||
| He has been brainwashed and mind-controlled by one week's worth of television coverage. | ||
| Unbelievable. | ||
| I did my best to explain to him what the militia really was, according to law. | ||
| What purpose it serves? | ||
| What principles most militias stand for? | ||
| That a few foolish men do not make all those who love this country evil and dangerous? | ||
| He wouldn't hear a word of it. | ||
| He said he'd rather be killed in his home by some invading enemy than to be rescued from the invader by a militia member. | ||
| Now that's... | ||
| That's quite a bit of brainwashing ladies and gentlemen. | ||
| That is really something. | ||
| He'd rather be killed in his home by some invading enemy than to be rescued from the invader by a militia member. | ||
| That's over the edge. | ||
| I don't care about your station chief's relationship with her dad. | ||
| Is this news? | ||
| What is going on here? | ||
| What is happening? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Why? | |
| He's denying the bombing and trying to, like, carry water for Timothy McVeigh and also spending time reading a friendly between compatriots. | ||
| It's a personal interest story, dude. | ||
| You gotta personalize the news. | ||
| You know, people really gotta empathize with this woman being mad that her dad is listening. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I guess. | ||
| I was listening to this and I resented it, honestly. | ||
| I found it, first of all, to be distasteful. | ||
| Because I don't care. | ||
| And then second, because conceivably Bill Cooper is supposed to be this guy who can see through all the conspiracies and he knows everything. | ||
| Did a 43 fucking hour series on Mystery Babylon. | ||
| 100%. | ||
| Your time is valuable, man, according to you. | ||
| This is not the best use of your time. | ||
| Chris Wallace goes on his show. | ||
| My dad said some really mean stuff about Fox News. | ||
| And listen, I don't ever want to speak to that asshole again. | ||
| If you're starting out this episode talking about how you fear you've lost, maybe it's because you're reading emails like this instead of doing work. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Maybe. | |
| I don't know. | ||
| That's a really good point. | ||
| How could we have lost? | ||
| Hey, maybe you could have figured out what the seismograph readings meant if you weren't spending your time dicking around talking about your station chief's dad. | ||
| How he doesn't look malicious. | ||
| Who cares? | ||
| That's a good point. | ||
| That's a very good point, Dad. | ||
| But there's an undercurrent that's also really ugly about this, and that is that there is a feeling of alienation that's coming. | ||
| From this station chief and her dad. | ||
| Oh yeah, no, this is cult leadership. | ||
| Yeah, you're seeing a family break, I mean, who knows how accurately she's portraying things, I have no idea, but taken at face value, you're seeing someone feel alienated from their own parent, where they're saying treasonous things because they believe the communist news network. | ||
| You need to cut off ties with all family, they're suppressive persons, and only believe Bill Cooper. | ||
| When I was thinking, and this is the station chief, Talking again. | ||
| When I was thinking last Saturday night that my life had changed, I guess I did not realize the full extent of it. | ||
| My dad is now the enemy. | ||
| That's so fucked up. | ||
|
unidentified
|
The station chief didn't know that Bill Cooper had met Timothy McVeigh. | |
| Bill Cooper could have been just like, Hey, yo. | ||
| Don't leave your dad. | ||
| Between you and me, look, I can't do this on the show. | ||
| For obvious reasons. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Just like I couldn't touch his butt, can't do it on the show. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But, yeah, don't get rid of me. | ||
| Your dad's totally right. | ||
| I allegedly met Timothy McQueen. | ||
| Let's be clear, because I still don't know what I believe. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure, sure. | |
| I could believe, certainly, that there was a random chance meeting between them, and I could believe Bill made it up. | ||
| Because he's a fabulist and a liar. | ||
| Totally. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| Right-wing liars tend to always right-wing lie. | ||
| That is a fallacy, though. | ||
| Just because someone's a liar, assuming they're always lying is a dangerous game. | ||
| That's why I said tend to always lie. | ||
| Don't worry about that. | ||
| Don't worry about that. | ||
| So that bummed me out, like, in the middle of this time frame, like, just taking a weird route through this personal email. | ||
| Doesn't belong on the show at all. | ||
| Check this out. | ||
| I made my station chief hater dad. | ||
| That's kind of what he's doing. | ||
| I mean, but it's framed through the lens of, like, they're so evil, they've brainwashed her dad. | ||
| That's just too yuck. | ||
| It can get close to home. | ||
| I'm sure all of you have had terrible experiences with your family members believing not Bill Cooper. | ||
| It's a tragedy. | ||
| So, there's the other thing. | ||
| Bill touched on this back on the episode from the 24th, and that has to do with the axle that was discharged from the rider truck. | ||
| Was it an honorable discharge? | ||
| It was. | ||
| And the notion that people were vaporized by the explosion. | ||
| So you get some more to talking about that here. | ||
| Spoke today with Sean at Oklahoma Cremation Service in Oklahoma City. | ||
| He went through the cremation process with me in some detail. | ||
| Now they're telling us that some people were literally vaporized. | ||
| Listen to this, ladies and gentlemen. | ||
| If these people were vaporized... | ||
| Then I can guarantee you they never found any trace of any truck. | ||
| So they better choose which it is that happened. | ||
| So you begin to be able to tell, like, he's reading a message from the station chief, lieutenant, soon to be major. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So you start to be able to tell, like, oh, this is him reading an email. | ||
| That's what's going on here. | ||
| So his station chief went to go talk to this guy who works at the crematorium. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Now, what they're doing is that they're taking information that they got from the crematorium person and applying it to news reports of people being vaporized. | ||
| And then they're saying, like, well, if one happened, then the other can't. | ||
| And I don't think that that's fair. | ||
| Because the issue comes down to force. | ||
| Depending on where the bomb was in the truck, it's possible that the axle could have been sent flying with the complete outward force from the explosion. | ||
| Simultaneously, someone standing near the truck might have had the force of the blast hit them and drive them, let's say, straight into a wall, which could lead to their body being essentially vaporized. | ||
| What Bill is doing here is creating a false contradiction. | ||
| He's implying that one thing is true and therefore another thing cannot be true, when in reality both can be. | ||
| to physics, it totally could. | ||
| What Bill is doing here is also mixing up what vaporized means in different contexts. | ||
| Yeah, I was going to say. | ||
| He goes on to give a long diatribe about the temperatures at which things like calcium vaporize, which he's trying to use to prove that any part of the rider truck would have been vaporized as well if a human body was vaporized. | ||
| This isn't what people mean when they say that a body was vaporized, generally speaking. | ||
| There's a definition that scientists would use to describe the chemical processes, and then there's the sort of vernacular. | ||
| The third definition in Merriam-Webster is, quote, to destroy by or as if by converting to vapor. | ||
| This sentence is, you know, that they use to demonstrate it in a sentence is, quote, a tank vaporized by a shell. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Obviously, the shell tank didn't become all vapor. | ||
| It's just a term that people use to describe a particular type of destructive process. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| When in this context, it's just hyperbole. | ||
| And it's a sci-fi term for it. | ||
| Because when you say vaporized, if you mean it in a destructive way, the way that these guys are talking about it, they're talking about there should be nothing left. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It should be literally vapor, which is only sci-fi. | ||
| No, it's not. | ||
| It's real. | ||
| I mean, it's real, but in this context, it's not like there's zero evidence of... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| I mean, there's, you know, like a nuclear explosion could... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, yeah. | |
| Like radiation. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| You could get there. | ||
| A volcanic eruption, you can leave all that. | ||
| Yeah, I get it. | ||
| From the stories that I was able to find, both about the Oklahoma City bombing and also the World Trade Center, typically the ways in which vaporized was being used generally had to do with people who died in ways that you couldn't get identifiable remains. | ||
| If someone's body is exploded to a point where it's not recognizable, it seems like there are instances where that's just called body was vaporized. | ||
| It's not a technical term, and I think that what Bill is doing is seeing that word being used in some media coverage and then implying... | ||
| Or pretending that what they're actually saying is that everything was so hot that the body became vapor. | ||
| And I'm not convinced that that is the truth. | ||
| I'm not convinced that that's what those news stories were saying. | ||
| Well, I mean, the... | ||
| I would assume that the crematorium, because it takes a ridiculous amount of heat to cremate somebody. | ||
| That's why they went there, to talk to that guy in order to get the evidence that it would melt the axle before a human body. | ||
| That's the game that's being played. | ||
| I mean, you could look up how much heat it takes to vaporize an axle. | ||
| You could look up all of these physical situations. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Like, you could just look at it. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| The internet exists. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| Or not in 95. Books exist still, though. | ||
| They still exist. | ||
| So does Kaji. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| They're probably more reliable than... | ||
| Just fucking tell one of your listeners to go look for it and call it a day. | ||
| Once again, you can find so many people who've dedicated their entire life to studying the physics of just this type of situation. | ||
| It's true. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But... | |
| You should really probably trust your station chief who hates her dad now. | ||
| And instead of talking to one of those people who could actually tell you those things, go talk to an unrelated field, someone at a crematorium. | ||
| Totally. | ||
| One thing that I haven't really pulled out from each episode, but does deserve mention, is that Bill is still selling his gold. | ||
| Ladies and gentlemen, the time is brought to you by Swiss America Trading. | ||
| If you're interested in getting your hands on some real money before the proverbial buffalo chip hits the fan, and I'm telling you it's not far off, then you better call our sponsor, Swiss America Trading, and talk to them about what real money really is. | ||
| So, you know, he's announcing it as an ad, so it's not as offensive as Alex, but it's still worth mentioning. | ||
| There is a trend of, like, the shit's about to hit the fan, you gotta get real money. | ||
| It's still a little bit fear-based sales, but whatever. | ||
| It's overly manipulative, but so is all advertising, really, isn't it? | ||
| Somewhat. | ||
| So Bill has a big philosophy, and that is whoever fires the first shot loses. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| We've heard Alex say this exact same thing. | ||
| It's pretty common, and it also is nonsensical and internally inconsistent. | ||
| And remember, I've always told you, I've warned you, I have admonished you, whoever fires the first shot wins. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| Did you hear what I said? | ||
| That's what the socialists... | ||
| Believe. | ||
| And that's why they blew up in the building in Oklahoma City, because I'm telling you right now, it was the government intelligence community that did it. | ||
| There isn't any doubt about it. | ||
| So, Bill believes that whoever fires the first shot loses, but these socialists, they believe the New World Order. | ||
| Of course, of course, of course. | ||
| They believe that whoever fires the first shot wins because they get to blame it on their enemies or whatever. | ||
| Why not? | ||
| So, Bill has said that the New World Order did the Oklahoma City bombing in that clip, which I have to assume would count as the first shot. | ||
| So what is he telling his audience? | ||
| They've lost. | ||
| Is he telling them that they should just wait for another shot? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| This kind of shit is so stupid. | ||
| Why would you be insisting to the audience that whoever fires the first shot loses if the first shot's been fired? | ||
| They lose, according to your principles. | ||
| It's not some abstract future thing now. | ||
| It's the past. | ||
| According to Bill Cooper's canon, the first shot's been fired. | ||
| Fuck, this is probably the thousandth shot, according to him. | ||
| So now any offensive action taken against the government isn't offensive, right? | ||
| No, that's self-defense. | ||
| It would be by definition. | ||
| It would have to be a response to this first shot, and therefore completely justified. | ||
| That's the implication of what Bill's saying, but he would never say that, because then the game's over. | ||
| This is one of the things that I see as just proof that these people are full of shit. | ||
| If you think you've proven that the New World Order blew up a federal building and killed tons of people, and that isn't enough for you to say that it's time to take up arms against them, where is that point? | ||
| There is no point, because you know that when you cross that line, you're not making any more money, and you're probably going to jail. | ||
| So you stay right on the edge of that point. | ||
| Yeah, I would say at this point, same-day shipping is more important than liberty for most people, so I don't think there is a first shot anymore. | ||
| I don't think it can happen. | ||
| Especially when you're like, alright, this is a New World Order conspiracy that goes back to Babylon, and it's a thousand-year-old conspiracy. | ||
| What the fuck are you talking about a first shot for? | ||
| I would like to know. | ||
| When does the first shot start? | ||
| Well, that goes from cold to hot war, Dan. | ||
| Shut the fuck up. | ||
| And then it eventually goes back to Cold War. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Shut up. | |
| And then it'll go back to Hot War. | ||
| So stupid. | ||
| And whoever fires the first shot in each Cold War loses the Hot War, which is why they come back during the other Cold War to win the next Hot War. | ||
| I just get a headache. | ||
| Yeah, it's bad. | ||
| I'm just sick of it. | ||
| It's a bad idea. | ||
| So, in this next clip, Bill gives what I would describe as a rare apology. | ||
| Sorry to that, ladies, Dad. | ||
| They're not patriots, and I should not have said that because apparently... | ||
| They were in the military, or at least one of them was. | ||
| Or two, I guess. | ||
| And they did serve honorably. | ||
| And at least one, to my knowledge, is supposed to have served in Desert Storm. | ||
| Under the concept that you are innocent until proven guilty, I apologize for making that statement last night. | ||
| I should not have made it. | ||
| That's what Bill decides is worth giving an apology about. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yep. | |
| He said that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not patriots, but he since learned that they were in the military, so he's sorry he said that they weren't patriots. | ||
| That's amazing! | ||
| None of the other stuff in his career requires retraction, but this does. | ||
| The first chapter of his book was based on a fraudulent document, The Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars, but he's not apologizing for that. | ||
| Behold, a pale horse contained a full reprinting of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. | ||
| It did not. | ||
| It did, but it had a note attached to it that said that you should replace the word Jew with Illuminati. | ||
| Oh, no! | ||
| But that's not apology-worthy. | ||
| He dared suggest that two men who've been arrested for blowing up a federal building aren't patriotic because they were in the service. | ||
| And that's something that he's got to make right. | ||
| Hey, you gotta. | ||
| That's wild. | ||
| Do not absolutely denigrate our military men, even though technically, in my worldview, they are controlled by the New World Order and they will be used to destroy us. | ||
| Something like that. | ||
| Don't fuck with the military. | ||
| So we get back to this other theme here of the socialists are Nazis, Nazis are socialists. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| That kind of thing. | ||
| We must not allow. | ||
| To happen here, what happened in Nazi Germany. | ||
| It will not be us sitting in a defense docket in another Nuremberg trial. | ||
| It will be the real Nazis. | ||
| The real Nazis. | ||
| Nazis are socialists. | ||
| Don't ever forget that. | ||
| We believe in Republican constitutional government and liberty. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| The Constitution says no state shall tender and payment of debt anything other than gold or silver coin. | ||
| The United States Code says that money is gold and silver coin and that it is expressed in a measurement called a dollar. | ||
| All Swiss America Trading. | ||
| Now, 1-800-289-2646, folks, and get some real money. | ||
| And you'd better do it soon. | ||
| All indications are that time is running out. | ||
| That's an ad pivot. | ||
| That's a lazy ad pivot. | ||
| That was. | ||
| Yeah, that's Jonesian. | ||
| His heart wasn't really in it, though. | ||
| No, but he did it. | ||
| Hey, look, these are the real Nazis, and hey, Nazi, Nazi, buy my gold. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I mean, it's so Alex. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Just a different personality, different broadcasting style, doing the same thing as Alex. | ||
| It's wild. | ||
| I hate, I don't understand, well, I understand it completely, but... | ||
| They always say Nazis are socialists. | ||
| Socialism being an economic system. | ||
| They never say Nazis are fascists. | ||
| Fascists being the government system that they don't like. | ||
| So, it seems to me that they are more angry about an economic system than they are about a government system. | ||
| I think that's probably true. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| So much of the libertarian leaning kind of Alex Jones-y, Bill Cooper-y stuff is like, it's so much like, Property rights are above everything. | ||
| Yeah, and that's a way to get to fascism real fast. | ||
| And it's something that would be at loggerheads with any ideas of heading more towards socialist systems. | ||
| Totally. | ||
| So there's something else that Bill is a little bit upset about. | ||
| He's got a little bee in his bonnet, and that is that Bill Clinton went on 60 Minutes, and they had an interview, and Bill has decided that he has condemned Timothy McVeigh to death. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| On 60 Minutes. | ||
| Steve Croft. | ||
| It seems almost certain now that this is homegrown terrorism, that the enemy is in fact within. | ||
| How do we respond to that? | ||
| Well, we have to arrest the people who did it. | ||
| We have to put them on trial. | ||
| We have to convict them and punish them. | ||
| I certainly believe that they should be executed. | ||
| I hate to tell you this, Slick Willie. | ||
| We all despise that bombing. | ||
| Do you? | ||
| So we don't know if anybody's guilty yet. | ||
| You've already convicted them and you're executing them. | ||
| That's not what he said. | ||
| That is not America. | ||
| He literally said not that. | ||
| And it is not for you to decide. | ||
| It is for a judge and jury. | ||
| To make that decision. | ||
| I don't think he decided that. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I mean, maybe a president, if asked that, should just be like, I defer. | ||
| Let the justice system do it. | ||
| But also, if a president is asked after a federal building has blown up, hey, what should happen to the people who are found guilty of this? | ||
| I think the death penalty is appropriate. | ||
| I don't think that that is equivalent of him being like, he's called for his death. | ||
| This person's death. | ||
| No, no. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I guess if you want to really be a stickler about it, whatever, Bill. | ||
| Have that one. | ||
| It's dumb, but you can have it. | ||
| So Bill Cooper also gets mad that Bill Clinton said some things about Waco in this clip from 60 Minutes. | ||
| And Bill goes on a diatribe about Waco that I'm not going to address, but I am going to point out that Bill is very mad. | ||
| And he is... | ||
| Very mad. | ||
| I cannot believe that any serious patriotic American... | ||
| This is the quote from Bill Clinton. | ||
| ...can believe that the conduct of those people at Waco justifies the kind of outrageous behavior we've seen here in Oklahoma City or the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that we're hearing all across the country today. | ||
| It's wrong. | ||
| What is he talking about? | ||
| No patriotic American in this whole country ever said that those people at Waco justified anything that happened in Oklahoma City. | ||
| He is lying! | ||
| That doesn't sound true. | ||
| There's a long pause. | ||
| And the only way that you can really get around a comment like that is just how do you define patriotic American? | ||
| No true Scotsman. | ||
| If you're going to say that saying that Waco justifies the Oklahoma City bombing precludes you from being a patriotic American, then this is just... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| If that's one of the things that's disqualifying, then yes, no patriotic American would believe that. | ||
| But I mean, like, Timothy McVeigh definitely thought that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And I would be shocked if there wasn't at least one episode of Bill Cooper's own show where he said... | ||
| This justifies some sort of response that is commensurate with what the government did, and so on and so forth. | ||
| I can't say, so I would be reticent to make a prediction of that, but I wouldn't be too surprised. | ||
| It's ludicrous to say that that wasn't a position that some people held. | ||
| No, absolutely. | ||
| Maybe it wasn't all militias. | ||
| Probably wasn't. | ||
| I'm sure that there were a lot of people who were horrified by the events. | ||
| That transpired and were condemning. | ||
| I'm positive of that. | ||
| But there is a contingent of people who would have those beliefs. | ||
| The only real way that this works is Bill's definition games. | ||
| I think that's important for his preserving some sense of self. | ||
| So Bill has a big plan. | ||
| He's going to get to the bottom of both Oklahoma City and Waco. | ||
| Is he going to buy a TV station along the way? | ||
| It is as harebrained. | ||
| I'm going to ask that every American gather evidence and proof and begin an investigation to find the culprits, the perpetrators, and help bring to justice the murderers of Oklahoma City and the murderers of Waco, Texas. | ||
| These were both despicable acts. | ||
| And we are going to find out who did it. | ||
| And we are going to raise a fund that is going to ensure that somebody comes out and talks. | ||
| And I hope you all participate. | ||
| This is going to come back on you, Bill Clinton and Janet Reno and FBI and BATF and whoever and however Did the bombing in Oklahoma City. | ||
| I mean, it looks like you don't need to do that investigation, Farrah. | ||
| You've already decided. | ||
| No, I think he's done. | ||
| I think his investigation has been completed already. | ||
| Great. | ||
| Yeah, we're going to raise up a whole bunch of money in order to lure some very competent grifter to tell a great story that confirms my theories. | ||
| Larry Nichols' ears perked up. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What's that? | |
| I can hear money. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I gotta go to work. | |
| Someone's offering them money. | ||
|
unidentified
|
These guys like the soft rice. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Great plan. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So we've got one last clip here, and it's Bill giving a theory about how we're going to get rid of this menace that's known as Bill Clinton. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| And, spoiler alert, didn't work. | ||
| I cannot believe that this nation has sunk so low, or that we have someone of the despicable character. | ||
| Such as Bill Clinton in our White House. | ||
| It does not speak well for America. | ||
| And we're going to have to change that in the next election, and the way to do it is to join the Constitution Party. | ||
| You'll find a forum to do that in the next issue of Veritas, which, by the way, you should all be subscribing to, because it's the only place that you're ever going to read the truth. | ||
| So, at this point, Bill Cooper had gone all-in on the Constitution Party, also known as the U.S. Taxpayers Party. | ||
| They were never a viable party, and at no point have they ever fielded a candidate that has received more than 0.2% of the vote for president. | ||
| Who got 0.2? | ||
| I don't remember. | ||
| But they've also never won an electoral vote. | ||
| Well, of course not. | ||
| In 1996, Howard Phillips was running his second of three campaigns for president on the ticket, and he managed to come in sixth. | ||
| 7th. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm not sure that they've even ever successfully fielded a candidate for Congress. | |
| In 2018 I can find one seat that the party won and it was in North Carolina the Green County Commissioner election for District 3. Anyway. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Anyway. | |
| Get that guy out of here. | ||
| What are you doing? | ||
| He needs to be impeached. | ||
| If you're a member of that party, you gotta go. | ||
| I don't know anything about the Green County Commission. | ||
| Maybe he's a good commissioner. | ||
| Who knows? | ||
| Anyway, Bill's on board with this party because that's what people like him are supposed to do. | ||
| They're supposed to be on a team that never wins because then they never have to deal with what comes after winning. | ||
| And you always have a ready excuse for why you lost. | ||
| This is the one thing that Alex forgot to include in his impression of Bill Cooper. | ||
| And it's bad news. | ||
| You never want to win. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| You never want to win. | ||
| That's why you stay with Ron Paul. | ||
| Stay with the Constitution Party. | ||
| Stay with those sorts of principled also-rans. | ||
| That's the way to go. | ||
| If you need a little bit more juice, go straight Libertarian Party. | ||
| Although that's never really going to work out for you, because then you've got to be in favor of Gary Johnson. | ||
| You've got to do a whole thing. | ||
| Alex couldn't do that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no, no, no. | |
| So, I mean, I found this a little bit disappointing as a stretch of time, because I really don't think that there was much coverage of the bombing. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| There was talk of, like, you sort of decided it's fake, or what have you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| There's a lot of yelling about Waco. | ||
| And then beyond that, it's sort of largely continuations of the threads that had already started. | ||
| Oh, are you? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| But, I mean, hey, look, we now have, within our field of awareness, that Bill may have met Timothy McFay. | ||
| That's so wild. | ||
| That's just so wild. | ||
| And that Bill is name-dropping Larry Nichols, and that means that he might do it again. | ||
| I don't think Larry's ever been on his show. | ||
| Let's call it. | ||
| I would have seen his name scrolling through. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure, sure, sure. | |
| That would have been the first episode we did. | ||
| No, no, we're on that one. | ||
| Yeah, for sure. | ||
| All day. | ||
| All day. | ||
| I don't think he's ever been on the show, but I wouldn't be surprised if... | ||
| Especially as Whitewater is continuing to go along and anti-Clinton sentiment gets higher. | ||
| And as Linda Thompson, who did the Clinton body count, comes on Bill's show. | ||
| He might be quoted and referenced. | ||
| I could see Larry Nichols becoming more of a prominent figure in the Cooper-verse. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| And it might necessitate a phone call. | ||
| I don't think he's going to take your call anymore. | ||
| I think he will. | ||
| I might. | ||
| He is not busy. | ||
| That is true. | ||
| So, I would like to apologize sincerely for the delay of this from the Part 1 episode, and we'll continue. | ||
| I'll try to do my best to... | ||
| I'm pretty sure everyone blames you for that. | ||
| I think they do. | ||
| Yeah, I'm pretty sure. | ||
| Certainly don't blame you. | ||
| I meant there were other circumstances going on that may have distracted you and not your personal decision-making. | ||
| That's nice, Colonel. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| But yeah, we'll keep on this thread because I do know that the conspiracy evolves. | ||
| It just didn't in these couple days. | ||
| There really isn't that much growth. | ||
| And so we'll see what the section chief brings up next time. | ||
| But until then, Jordan, we have a website. | ||
| We do have a website. | ||
| It's KnowledgeFight.com. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| We're also on Twitter. | ||
| We are on Twitter. | ||
| It's at KnowledgeFight, and I go to bed, Jordan. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yep. | |
| We're also on Facebook. | ||
| Indeed, we are. | ||
| Leave a review. | ||
| And then if you could, please find a local charity in your area, bail fund, or the like to help with people doing God's work. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| We'll be back. | ||
| But until then, I'm Neo. | ||
| I'm Leo. | ||
| I'm DZX Clark. | ||
| I am the Chicago Station Chief of the Citizens Agency of... | ||
| Journalistic integrity for the Second Continental Army of the Republic. | ||
| Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. | ||
| Thanks for holding. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Alex. | |
| I'm a first-time caller. | ||
| I'm a huge fan. | ||
| I love your work. |