Knowledge Fight - #180: Heresy and God Kings

July 13, 2018 - Knowledge Fight

02:21:19

#180: Heresy and God Kings

# without_walls_international_church vashti twin_towers 2011_trump_prayer_story adult_swim alex_jones andy_and_kansas apostles_creed band biblical_figure christian_nation_myth conspiracy_theory danny_sue_bakker donald_trump esther fundraising_exploitation jim_bakker johnson_amendment jonathan_kane journey kid_charlemagne knowledge_fight media_criticism neil_schoen new_destiny_christian_center nicene_creed paula_white_cain political_manipulation project_camelot religious_fraud tabby_sue_bakker theocracy

Knowledge Fight dissects Jim Bakker and Paula White-Cain’s fraudulent religious-political grifts, exposing Danny Sue Bakker’s role as announcer while mocking Tabby Sue’s silence. White-Cain’s $29M bankruptcy, Trump’s 2011 "six-hour prayer" fabrication, and Bakker’s $45 pen scam reveal exploitation of faith for profit. Her "Esther prophecy" about the Twin Towers and fear-mongering over Christian persecution are dismissed as manipulative political warnings. Their revisionist claims—like America’s founding as a blood-soaked theocracy—undermine facts, mirroring anti-intellectual con tactics in conservative media. [Automatically generated summary]
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Participants

Main

dan friesen

01:13:04

jim bakker

05:42

jordan holmes

45:02

paula white-cain

10:58

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Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Andy in Kansas, you're on the air.
		Thanks for holding.
		Hello, Alex.
		I'm a first-time caller.
		I'm a huge fan.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I love your work.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I love you.
		Hey, everybody.
		Welcome back to Knowledge Fight.
		I'm Dan.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I'm Jordan.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We are a couple of dudes that sit around, drink novelty beverages, and talk a little bit about Alex Jones.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, we are.
		Dan, Dan.
		What?
		If you were just some fucking guy.
		Just like taking a motorcycle ride from the East Coast to the West Coast.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Intercontinental.
		Across the continent.
		I used the wrong word.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Intra-continental.
		Right.
		Or whatever.
		You derailed the whole thing.
		Dan, who are we?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I know a lot about Alex Jones.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't know anything about Alex Jones.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We got to get a new introduction for this show.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this one's getting unwieldy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm tired of it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Me too.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I feel like you're tired of it based on you having to do all the heavy lifting of it, and we just respond to you with the same thing.
		And also, I think that no longer, I mean, the criticism has been levied that you do know a lot about Alex Jones, and that's fairly accurate at this point.
		And then also, I think we need to even just change the introduction of we sit around and drink novelty beverages and talk about Alex Jones because at this point there are much more topics that we're covering.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We have evolved a long way.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think that maybe two years ago, whenever we started this whole thing up, about two years ago, I was a bit more mentally unwell.
		Perhaps.
		And I had a much bigger tolerance for listening to Alex Jones.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And he wasn't nearly as- Almost as a self-flagellation kind of situation.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And he wasn't nearly as awful as he is in the present.
		And when I mean to say awful, I mean boring.
		Like, I could still listen to his 2016 shit all day.
		I wouldn't have a problem with that.
		But something has changed, and it's not as satisfying to me in any way.
		It's very boring and a waste of my time.
		And further, as we've gone along, I have come to the point where, and we've talked about this here and there, that the bigger revelation that we've learned from watching him and studying him is that he is a piece of a larger ecosystem.
		And this is really our bigger message, I believe, is that almost everybody who is in a speaking role on the right is a con person.
		They're all trying to defraud people.
		Yeah.
		That is the name of the game.
		He is a symptom of a bigger thing.
		Right.
		And as we go through, you might want to say that Project Camelot isn't right-wing, but boy, it is.
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If you look at the Venn diagram of guests who have been on both, there's that end of it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We've expanded it even more.
		And I want to expand it to talk about other very, very clear hucksters.
		Not to say that we're going to leave Alex Jones or anything like that, but I feel like we're in this, like, I don't feel like it's a holding pattern or anything like that.
		But I feel like we're on the cusp of evolving into something new.
		While not abandoning what we have been, but I think I can speak for both of us and say that it's not pleasant to do episodes about the present day.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think what you just described is that we have outgrown the small pond that is Alex Jones' bullshit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Maybe intellectually, yeah.
		And again, that's not to say leave Alex in the dust, because I still think he's the easiest person to illustrate a lot of these truths about.
		But at the end of the day, I need to, in order for me to treat this like a job and to continue moving forward, one of the things that I need to do is have some sort of intellectual exercise to it.
		There needs to be some kind of rigor to it that makes it challenging and compelling.
		Otherwise, I'm going through the motions of like, oh, here's Alex saying something that's not true that we've talked about over and over.
		And then we try and fill in the gaps by saying everyone should go to The Hague.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Something like that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What you're basically saying is that as Alex has gotten more and more boring to you, so has this job somewhat turned into a little bit of like a knowledge of like a knowledge fight Starbucks, where it's like, really, I'm going in and I'm making coffee again.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, that's not fair.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		The same fucking coffee, huh?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's not fair.
		The show isn't that I still know everything about this, but his show.
		But for, yes, for me to sit down and listen to anything current, it is that.
		It is a slog, and it's just like, why am I even doing it?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We need to bring you some fulfillment in life, Dan.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So by way, this introduction, I guess, is my way of saying that as we move forward, there may be, I don't know, there might be tweaks.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We haven't really had a conversation about exactly what we need to do.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We don't really have off-air meetings or anything.
		But I do feel the need.
		And if, you know, I'm open to any input from listeners, if anybody has any ideas, I would love to hear what you think we should become.
		I'm not going to take your.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This is the problem with you, millennial podcast hosts.
		You're always talking about fulfillment.
		You're always talking about all this shit.
		You know, the older generation of podcast hosts, they would go to work, they would toil in their coal podcasts for eight hours a day.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They're talking about the history.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		They would go home to a wife they hate and they would fucking deal with it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Dan, goddamn millennials, you're ruining the podcast industry.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I really could hear Adam Carolla saying that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like I legitimately.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I wish I was farther away from what somebody might say.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's back in my day.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		When I started podcasting.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Shut up.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Why don't people think I'm relevant anymore?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So, anyway, no matter what, we're going to keep going full steam ahead as a show.
		And maybe you won't even notice the incremental changes that happen.
		Who knows?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Just like creeping fascism.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		So something that is not creeping is a new donor.
		Give a shout out.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Great transition.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Give a shout out to a new donor.
		Thank you so much, B. I'm a policy wonk.
		Thank you so much.
		We appreciate it.
		Thanks, B. Generally, I hate things that are bees because they scare me.
unidentified		Flying little insects that stand by me.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, not stand by me, my girl.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		My girl.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Come on, man.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's the sassy sister film.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Now, I think I got stung by a bee when I was really young, and I assumed it hurt that much.
		But I was just a kid.
		Things hurt more when you're a kid.
		I imagined that getting stung by a bee as an adult would almost incapacitate me.
unidentified		But I realized, nah, I'd probably just be on the stage.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		When I was a kid, I was like five years old.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And this is a weird story about my dumb family.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Thrilled.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Thrilled to hear this.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I was playing a little wiffle ball with my grandfather, and I was like five years old.
		And we had a basis system that was built around the trees.
		And he decided that third base was the tree that had a giant beehive on it.
		But he did not tell me that.
		He knew about it.
		He specifically knew about this in advance.
		This was not an unheard of thing.
		And he was like, he was like, no.
		And he was like, yeah, we're just going to keep playing.
		Don't even worry about it.
		So I hit the thing.
		I'm running around the bases, touching third like a fucking baller.
		B, bam.
		Like three of them stung me right on the top of my head.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Now that's a boring story.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That is.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		However, I learned that my grandmother at one point in time either knew how to make a poultice, had heard of a poultice, or just put some shit into a boiling pan and then put it on my head.
unidentified		Okay.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It was one of the weirder things I've ever.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She has exhibited zero down-home country wisdom.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Except for that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Except for one poultice.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And thank God she was there.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It has never been.
		I swear to God, it never happened before.
		It has never happened afterwards.
		I feel like if I knew how to make poultices, I would be doing that shit all the time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I feel like you just want to say poultice over here.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I can't stop saying it now.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, you'll have many opportunities on this episode.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Dan, do you have a bug bite?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		I don't.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If you did and I had poultice making abilities, covered that shit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It would be like Jack Spratt and his wife.
		Yeah, yeah.
		So, Jordan, like I said, we're not going to be talking about Alex Jones.
		Today we're going to be dipping our toe into another weird world.
		And we all know this guy.
		We met him a little bit in a recent episode.
		And here's an out-of-context drop from today's episode.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		It does get weary raising money all the time because you just got to do it to pay the bills.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that is rough, Jim Baker.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Jim.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We really, boy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It does get weary.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's a boy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That is the most ridiculous thing that you could say as a rich, dumbass fucking human being.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right, absolutely.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		As someone who most of your life is co-opting scripture and shit like that in order to get money.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Your primary motivation is getting the money.
		It's not really about the Christianity aspect of it.
		So I imagine that would be tiresome.
		Anyway.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's very wearying to do this job.
		And I can't tell you what that job is because this job is gamming you by asking you for money.
		But I wish I hadn't said that last part.
		Hey, it's tiring to ask for money.
		Ah!
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So today, Jordan, on our first venture into the world of Jim Baker, the new Jim Baker show, we went over an episode where I had fellow Alex Jones guest, Steve Quayle, to give a sort of a concrete bridge between the Alex Jones show and the Jim Baker show.
		Right.
		And today I have a different guest that will create more of a philosophical bridge.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Ben Jaker.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
unidentified		Okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that'd be great.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If you just had an upside-down version of him?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, but like a Mr. Mixel Plick.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Or if you just came out like Rainbow Snatch.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I could totally see him doing if he did like a point counterpoint bit that didn't even Steven?
		Colbert.
		Didn't Colbert wear it?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Even Stephen.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If he did that, that'd be fucking fantastic.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yes!
unidentified		No!
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That'd be fucking fantastic.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Love it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That was some good parody.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It was good stuff.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Didn't change anything.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, he really nailed it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And so far it has still kept going.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Everyone's still just yelling no at each other.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So here is where we start, and we get the announcement of this guest who I'm almost certain you've never heard of, but will infuriate you to know.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It would be amazing if I do this guy personally.
unidentified		Hello, and welcome to the Jim Baker Show.
		I'm your co-host, Danny Sue Baker.
		Today's very special guest, Paula White Kane, and her husband, Jonathan Kane.
		Now, please give a warm welcome to my parents and the host of the Jim Baker show, Jim and Lori Baker.
		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Their announcer is their kid.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What?
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And also.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Holy fucking shit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Also, co-host is putting it incredibly strongly.
		Tabby Sue Baker doesn't say word one through this fucking thing.
		She's very silently just at the table.
		But so do you know who Paula White Kane or Jonathan Kane are?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I will start with John.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I'm really unhappy about this whole.
		She's the announce.
		The kid is the announcer for the show.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Not always.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But she's there.
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She's usually there, but she's an adult.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		So if I understand correctly, she, as an adult, did not divorce her name from her parents' name forever and ever in perpetuity.
unidentified		No.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Instead, she was brought back in like a return to the dynasty of evil peddling with con men.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure she's.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And she becomes her own fucking mafia Don below that level.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Wet her beak.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		On the food bucket that comes in.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, got to get that food bucket money.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So I'll start.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She gets a year's worth of food every time she opens up her mouth.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And only one time a show when she says, here are my parents.
		So I'll start with Jonathan Kane because this is going to blow your goddamn mind.
		Jonathan Kane doesn't talk much during this episode, so we're not going to talk extensively about him.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		On a Christian show, The Man Not Talking does blow my mind a little bit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Would you believe that Jonathan Kane is one of the main members of the band Journey?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He's not the original.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
		Yeah.
		I'm going to tell you this right now, Dan.
		Yes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He's not the original keyboard player, but he was the keyboard player during their main run.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So he has a writing credit on Don't Stop Blessing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's Don't Stop Believing Jonathan Kane.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		All right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And they do have him play it live.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they have him sit down at a piano and play Don't Stop Believe him.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm like, come on, buddy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But he's not the guy who sings.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He has a decent voice.
		He doesn't know Arnel Pineda or Steve Perry.
		Steve's not coming to the show.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Steve is not coming to that show.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's really weird because it's like, well, I mean, this is a guy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This is like a, like, he's a big, like, he has writing credits on most of their hits.
unidentified		I mean.
unidentified		I mean, there's a difference between.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he is rich as fuck.
		Okay, that's why.
		Because I hope you're not saying that he's like a famous guy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He is.
		Not in terms of recognizability or anything like that.
		Most people don't know his name or couldn't pick him out of a lineup.
		Exactly.
		But he's super rich, and people who love Journey know who he is.
		So he probably could get a lot of backstage action.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And people who love Jersey are really easy to get rid of to divorce from $40.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That is what I know about Journey Fandom is that they will send $40 to just about anywhere.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if they'll pay $40 for tickets to see Journey at this point, they'll send $40 in for food buffs.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Give me a year's worth of food or a shout at Journey.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Whatever you got.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know what his story is necessarily.
		They talk about how he and Paula White Kane met.
		And apparently they, I don't know, something about they were on the same plane, and she talked to him the whole time.
		And I think from what I can imagine, he probably was tired of the rock star life or something like that.
		Maybe had some problems.
		And she's a very strong woman, let's say.
		Okay.
		Commandeering, perhaps.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She's a bit motherly.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
		I wouldn't like that.
		If she was my mother, I wouldn't like that at all.
		No.
		But I think that maybe she corrected some of the lifestyle issues that he might have had.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, did he even – wait, did he convert?
		Like, is he like, oh, yeah.
		Oh, he's gone evangelical.
		Like, he's born again.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he's that guy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that guy's fucked.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That guy never had a chance.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And from what I can tell, he's still in Journey, so good for him.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Not for much longer after this.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this is from 2017, so it's a little ways back, this appearance.
		But they also, the only other thing I really know is they got married three times, which is they have a nice fun line.
		It's like, yeah, you know, he said we were never going to get married, and then we married three times.
		Like, that seems to be a lot of fun.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what that means.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They just had three wedding ceremonies.
		Oh, they just love weddings.
		Oh.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Well, then you just got married once and then had three parties.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		My prediction is that it's actually also Paula White Kane's third husband, and so maybe she was trying to undo the other ones.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like, yeah, I've been married three times, so I married you three times.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She gets a redo.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
unidentified		All right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She's got to undo all of that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's a loophole in the law I did not expect.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And God's Law.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, even God's like, shit, I didn't think of that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So you don't know anything about Paula White Kane?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I do not know anything about Paula White Kane.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I do like saying Paula White Kane.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's not bad.
		So we'll get, I don't know.
		Let's see if you can have some context clues he can pick up as we go along.
		I don't know.
unidentified		I don't like your Cheshire Cat grin.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		We're so grateful that you could come by.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		I know your schedule's extremely busy.
unidentified		Yes.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		You were preaching last night till almost midnight.
		Yes, so here you are here.
		You're catching a plane in another hour or so, going somewhere else.
		But you have unbelievable energy.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		You know, God is so good.
		It says he gives us boundless energy.
		And I believe when we really surrender, of course, we do the right things.
		We try to eat right and exercise and take care of ourselves.
		But also, it's really the life of Christ in us.
		And I've got to say, how could I not come here?
		I am sitting with one of the greatest generals that God has ever raised.
unidentified		Raped up in the earth.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		One of the greatest rapists.
unidentified		And I honestly raper.
unidentified		I thank God for you.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I have always, the countless lives, you've paved the path for so many of us.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And sometimes people forget really the significance and who you are spiritually.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So what I think she's saying there that I find very interesting is like, you've paved the path.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I just wrote that down.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You've paved the path.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Wrote that down so fast.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		The moment she said that, I was like, oh, we're in for a, you guys are going to fucking do your dance on us.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, because the path that he paved is a really lucrative business out of religion.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Of course he paved the path.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It has nothing to do with like some.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Joel Olstein isn't around if it weren't for this motherfucker right here.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Uh-uh.
		So she is a televangelist and also adherent of the prosperity gospel.
		Oh, what a surprise.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's almost like they know each other.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and, you know, of course, the idea of, you know, you paved the path is that you made it possible for people like me to scam millions of dollars from people.
		Right.
		And, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		On TV.
		Now, let's not lie, evangelicalism has been scamming millions upon millions upon millions of people.
		It has scammed almost as many people as malaria has killed throughout Christianity's history.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's just, that's just, like, you go back to the beginning, man.
		The revivalist tents of the early 1900s were fucking packed.
		It was insane.
		Yeah, it's ridiculous.
		Christianity is all a scam, but these guys are so fucking good at it.
		And they put on a good show.
		They do a little dance.
		They do some singing.
		Then you've got to worry about the guy from Journey's there.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Wait, the guy from Journey married a televangelist.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We've got to really hammer this thought home for me.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So you just got to let that go.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if I can.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand people who bury televangelists.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's very weird.
		It seems suspicious.
		But so she used to be the pastor of this Tampa church called Without Walls International Church.
		And this story here from 2014, citing millions and liabilities without walls international church is seeking bankruptcy protection.
		A move a major lender asserts in court papers is an attempt to dodge a foreclosure judgment.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yada.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The California-based Evangelical Christian Credit Union says the Tampa mega church owes it $29 million.
		It calls Without Walls filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on March 5th, a quote, litigation tactic to prevent foreclosure on the West Columbus Drive Church and also a shuttered church in Polk County.
		So at the time, she was preaching the prosperity gospel and making tons of money from this church.
		Right.
		And then mysteriously, somehow, they're $29 million in debt when she's living an amazing lifestyle.
		Jet setting.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It does seem odd.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, the prosperity that God is providing for her has nothing to do with the church itself.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The church itself is like $29 million in debt.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, but God wouldn't allow that church to go $29 million in debt.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's the congregant's fault.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He appointed his very own credit union to lend her money.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's the congregation's fault.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She had plenty of faith, but she was let down by the parishioners and the people who came to church, and that's why the church would be able to be 20.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's why it would be going to be a good thing.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But she still is doing quite well.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Her faith is too good.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Okay.
		And then she, after that, ended up running a church, which she still runs now called the New Destiny Christian Center in Apopka City near Orlando.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Has that church been like, are the proceedings still litigated?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Are they still fighting it out?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't know about that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Is that even her real name anymore?
		Did she change her name and burn everything down?
		Like Kaiser Sosi?
		What's going on here?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She's Paula White Kane.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So, look, my point is more that, like, you know, all right, we got the sort of traditional backstory of huckster preachers who end up wrecking everything in their wake to their much like Trump, bankrupting businesses and walking away with money or any of these abusive capitalist fucks.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Just like it says in the Bible.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So she has that in her background, and that only makes it make crystal clear sense why this happens.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		It seems like you're at the White House every day.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		God damn it.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		We're on a little committee thing for pastors.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And we call in, and you're always on the phone from the White House, too.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		I am.
		I try to make it up at least every week.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		We do.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes I'm up there several times.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And you guys pray.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		We pray.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		I know the world don't like praying, but we love praying.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		You know, a lot of people, our president loves prayer.
		I will never forget.
		We were, oh, John wasn't doing a show still, so I went to the Kennedy Center for the Faith and Freedom, and I loved it because he went off script for a while, and he just said, Let me tell you something.
		As long as I am president, you will pray, and you can always pray at your football games.
		You can pray in school.
		You can pray.
		And I loved it.
		I was just like, you go.
		You go.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Whoever thought of making prayer illegal?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No one.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I am now.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Not super much now.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Not private.
unidentified		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, so illegal.
		So if I catch you praying, unless it's to any of any number of gods, just this one.
		Just whatever prayer you are saying to Jim Baker and Paula White's God, illegal.
		Illegal.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, here's the thing: Paula White is maybe Trump's spiritual center.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She's the one who gave him empty.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She gave morally just empty.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She gave the benediction at Trump's inauguration.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She gave a prayer at Trump's inauguration.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She was one of the pastors that came and laid hands on him for the photo ops and shit like that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She's not a pastor, though.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She's a con woman.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, but that's part of it, man.
		This is all like, this is endemic.
		This is the system that we have operating right now.
		The right wing, and especially, you know, things like this, this version of the right wing, is all beholden to cons.
		Everyone's running cons, and so they work together on these cons.
		How can I elevate you while you elevate me, falsely?
		It's all interconnected con people helping each other.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think, didn't we used to have a system where it was every con man for himself?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We got fucked whenever they teamed up.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		They teamed up like a motherfucking blockbuster, and they are running rampant on us.
		They didn't realize that they could Oceans 11 the world.
		They went from politics or they started a religion or politics or whatever.
		They just fucking expanded everywhere like a goddamn evil octopus.
		Fucking crazy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's wild.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So one other problem is that, and I mean this literally, Paula White is a heretic.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Like, she was excommunicated from a church and shall be put to death at the soonest possible ability?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't know about the death part, but she should be excommunicated because she's made many statements that deny the Nicene Creed.
		Okay.
		Which, if you don't know, is one of the foundations of Christian dogma.
unidentified		I did not know.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed are foundations that pretty much every branch of Christianity follows.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I only respect the Assassin's Creed, Dan.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I understand that, and I respect your.
		So everything is permitted, Dan.
		So the Nicene Creed goes basically a little something like this.
		We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of heaven and earth, and things visible and invisible.
		And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of Father and God the Father, the only begotten, that is the essence of the Father.
		God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten and not made, and of the same nature of the Father, and by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
		So there's a lot more.
		And this is the Armenian version, but it's the same as spiritually the same as the other versions, which the essence of the Nicene Creed comes down to the idea that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God, and he was of the same material as God.
		Right.
		Those things are incredibly important for every branch of Christianity.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's pretty big.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Pretty much every branch of Christianity.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's probably a couple examples that are way on the fringe.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Do you really want to talk about how great that Jesus guy without ever like, hey, what Jesus did was great.
		Let's not talk about that, though.
		Let's not apply what Jesus did to anything else.
		He was great.
		Let's never talk about what he did.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So multiple times, Paula White has made the statement that, quote, Jesus is not the only begotten Son of God.
		He is the first fruit.
		And things like that.
		How does that work?
		Well, it's meant to imply.
		It's sort of like.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You're all Jesus?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Are we going back to the genetic line of Jesus's?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It comes back to cons.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because first fruits is an idea that people from the prosperity gospel and the evangelical world really abuse.
		They have this, and especially Paula White, she does this all the time.
		This idea that first fruits belong to God.
		So she encourages people who watch her shows to give their first month salary of the year to the church.
		Because you give a sacrifice of the first fruits, and that assures more plentiful harvest for the rest of the year.
		Because you know God's going to provide for you if you provide for the church.
		So even the phrasing that she's using in these times, when she's talking about Jesus wasn't the only Son of God, he was the first fruit.
		That was God offering the first fruit as sacrifice in order to have a more plentiful harvest later, which would imply that there are more sons of God, which is a direct counter to the Nicene Creed, and is part of the heresy that the Council of Nicaea came together to correct.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So all of this stuff, like, she is way outside Christianity.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like, even with, like, the.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Even within the prosperity gospel, which is way outside of Christianity.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't think Creflo A dollar would be heretical.
unidentified		Nah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like, it's one thing to lust after money so much that you make it this overt about like, you know, give me all this money and blah, blah, blah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You show up on Jim Baker's fucking show.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It is wearying to ask for so much money.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's so tiring.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's so tiring.
		But that's, you know, it's super important.
		Like, a lot of people have written about this about how it's so offensive that Trump would have her give the prayer.
		Even like Christian folk are like, if he had a Buddhist or a Hindu person or a Muslim give a prayer, that is not offensive.
		What is offensive is someone who believes in a heretical version of Christianity presenting themselves as Christians in a way that is dangerous to the faith of the church.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, Aleister Crowley gave my benediction whenever I was baptized.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Perfectly fine.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, totally fine.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No problem.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's only one true law.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's no wilt.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's good prayer.
unidentified		So this is a bit of a problem.
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This is a bit of a problem for Paula White.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She is a heretic who has apparently also bankrupted churches and now is Trump's favorite preacher.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't know why they would see a lot of themselves in each other.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Kind of like game-recognized games.
		It's a little bit like that.
		So in this next clip, she talks about how she's been friends with Trump for a really long time.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't like that either.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And man, I'll tell you what, you might not know this.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Trump loves prayer.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I've known our president for 16 years.
		I'm sure we'll get into that.
		But in 2011, to show you what.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		That's the next question, by the way.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
		To show you how much our president loves prayer in 2011, by this time, I've had an extended relationship with him.
		He calls me up and he says, Paul, I'm thinking about running for president.
		He said, would you bring some men and women of God to really pray?
		I need to hear from God.
		Now, he wasn't saying bring them around because I want to vote or I want this.
		He said, I really want to hear.
		So I brought about three friends.
		You know, we went in and we just stayed for six hours praying, talking about God, praying, talking about where our nation was, praying.
		Six hours.
		It's back in 2011.
		So the next day he calls me up.
		He says, What do you think God's saying?
		I said, I don't believe it's time.
		I said, let's keep praying.
unidentified		He said, me too.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Because he had to make a decision within 24 hours that affected some things with the network and some businesses that he was doing.
		And so he continued to pray.
		And he said, Paula, just have the prayer groups pray.
		And what he was asking was, I really want to do what God has for me.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So we should talk a little bit about 2011.
		So Trump did.
		Trump did really play around with running for president in 2011.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, I recall.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's played around with running for president since he was like nine.
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		In an article from The Guardian, quote, in a statement, he said, quote, after considerable deliberation and reflection, I've decided not to pursue the office of the presidency.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This decision does not come easily or without regret, especially when my potential candidacy continues to be validated by ranking at the top of the Republican contenders in polls across the country.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Nice way to end it, Trump.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		In spite of Trump's claims about being frontrunner in the polls, one published Monday by Politico and George Washington University showed 71% of those surveyed thought he had no chance of becoming president.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Simpler time, 2011.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, much better.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Much better.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		In 2011, Donald Trump got roasted on Comedy Central by such comedy heavyweights and real-life Donald Trump friends as Snoop Dogg, Larry King, and The Situation from the Jersey Shore.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It did happen, didn't it?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Also, Trump was a real asshole during that roast.
		This is from someone who was there behind the scenes information.
		Quote, Trump complained that the woman he was supposed to hand his coat to on stage wasn't hot enough.
		He demanded that jokes implying he's not as rich as he says he were were off limits.
		Roasters were told to refer to him only as Mr. Trump.
		Hair jokes were also apparently off limits until one was written that managed to tie in his wealth into the punchline.
		And even then, the net worth used in the joke became a negotiation.
		He was a complete shithead.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Doesn't sound like a man of God.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This lady I give my coat to isn't hot enough.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that's because he was talking in spiritual terms.
unidentified		You could feel that she wasn't praying that much, Dan.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's possible.
unidentified		That was her heat for God cold.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Interesting theory.
unidentified		Colt!
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's a possibility.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I need a godly matron to hand me my coat when I walk up there.
		I want a woman wearing, I'll be goddamned if it isn't, fucking shit.
		What's the show?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		What are you talking about?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The roast?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Handmaid's tail.
unidentified		Oh.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Handmaid's tail.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's what I was reaching for.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Isn't it also funny that Snoop Dogg was one of the people who roasted him, and now in the present day, Alex Jones screams about Snoop Dogg making that video where he puts a gun to Trump's head and the bang flag comes out?
		Isn't it funny that it's kind of like, oh, everyone's just, this is all fake.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think it's funnier that Snoop Dogg hosts a game show.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think he's hosted a few.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Has he?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think he's very charismatic, very charming.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Never watched one?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I kind of want to.
		So also, in 2011, that was the year when President Obama and Seth Myers humiliated Donald Trump at the correspondence dinner.
		And a lot of people believe that's what motivated him to try and run for president in earnest.
		I don't know if I necessarily believe that 100%, but it's something that a lot of people seem to believe.
		Also, I don't know.
		This is so stupid.
		The idea that he's like, I just need everybody to pray back in 2011.
		We know what he was doing in 2011.
		This is all bullshit.
		And let's talk about what he would have done in 2011.
		First of all, he was never going to run because he knew Barack Obama was going to fucking win against anybody.
		He didn't want to be humiliated by losing in that election.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But if only he had.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think any amount of cheating could have bolstered.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, he would have gone down that one.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And the social media infrastructure they had probably wasn't nearly as good as it needed to be in order to sway people as well as it did.
		But Trump in 2011 talked about dreamers on Fox and Friends.
		Quote, you have people in this country for 20 years.
		They've done a great job.
		They've done wonderfully.
		They've gone to school.
		They've gotten good marks.
		They're productive.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Separate them from their parents.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Now we're supposed to kick them out of the country?
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't believe in that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you do.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I mean, he does now.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, he spent another six years watching Fox and Friends.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Having this crazy broad prayer.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		So this story she just told is complete fabrication.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I bet.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		There's no way any of this is true.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't think each other.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't think Jeffy knew that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He has an attention span that, according to every report we've heard from his outgoing staff, it's like he has an attention span of, hi, Trump, and then he runs away and scurries under a hole in Christ.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		His dementia might not have been as bad seven years ago.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's possible.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So that's possible.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's an element to consider.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's possible.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But then also, like, yeah, I think most of the fundamentals of this are the embellishment of televangelism.
		Yeah.
		I don't think this is true at all.
		I think it's like, I have my horse here.
		I have my guy that is my guy, and I'm going to do everything I can in order to create this backstory where we're intimately involved, and he's been on the right side of things forever.
unidentified		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because if I don't, I have to wrestle with the fact that I have chosen to take this con man and believe all these positive things about him when the evidence is all to the contrary.
unidentified		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And in 2011, he didn't even believe in the principles I'm thrilled he's enacting now in terms of what you do with immigrants.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But what she's got to rely on is the rules of the code.
		She's got the con man's code.
		As long as she's helping him out, he's going to corroborate whatever dumb shit she says.
		It just doesn't even matter.
		Like, oh, yeah, no, we prayed for seven hours.
		Wait, did she say six?
		It was 10 hours.
		It doesn't fucking matter.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She probably just didn't realize she was in a prayer trance.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is amazing.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This is a few hours.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This is imaginary televangelist bullshit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But of course it is.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They're all liars.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This is such a lie, though.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's so bleak.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Why do you expect proof from liars?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		How do you buy this?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Who are these people?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's pretty crazy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So at this point, Paula goes on to talk a little bit.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		The crowd went to prayer.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Prayer.
		So Paula wants to.
		She's in the middle of a story here.
		The rest of the story isn't really all that important.
		It's kind of just more about praying with Trump and stuff like that.
		So you'll notice that it's a little bit jarring.
		We come in in the middle of the story, but the only thing that's really important is what she says at the end, which is one indication that everyone should be like, this person is nuts.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And then within minutes, right?
		He calls in and he says, send Paula out to pray.
		So now I'd already been praying for six hours because the Lord said, you're going to lay hands on him.
		And so we go in, of course, Milani up there and some others were around him and the family.
		And I just started praying him.
		And I'm just telling you, giving, well, I'm going to say what I'm what I'm going to say what I did.
		I started prophesying.
		I started speaking prophetic declarations and praying.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Paula, you're how you're going to.
		No, don't clap yet.
		Don't clap yet.
		Wait until the prophecy is said.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They made a cut there, too, in the video that Jim Baker put out.
		They just went to applause and then him changing the subject.
		I don't know if she explained.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		So she may have said what prophecy she said, and then they cut it so people, so it looked like people were clapping that she had done it in the first place.
		Not what she had prophesied was like, and this guy, I believe that Trump is going to make this a whites-only nation.
		And then everybody clapped.
		But in the broadcast, you can't clap.
		I mean, yeah, you can't let her say that part.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if she ever gives any specifics on the prophecy stuff.
		And I know that she does talk about one thing.
		I don't know if I have the clip of it here, but she talks about how, like, when she came to God, when she was a wee 18-year-old or so, I think, I think that's her backstory.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		After she heard Don't Stop Believing for the first time, heard those soft peas.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Also, he has a writing credit on Faithfully.
		That's pretty exciting.
		But anyway, oh, man, there's a clip.
		There's a clip that I don't have because it was from a different video that they put out.
		But Lori Baker is talking about how back when she apparently has a real rough backstory.
		Oh, yeah.
		She did some drugs in the past.
		Oh, so she's also born again.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She's born again.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		And so, like, she's talking about how they used to listen to Journey.
		And she's talking about back in that day, I was living wild.
		We had drug paraphernalia on the tables.
		But we would be up late.
		We would be up late with our drug paraphernalia.
		But even though, even though we were doing drugs, we would still turn on Christian TV.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure, sure.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And I'm like, I can relate to that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can enjoy that as long as you're doing drugs.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's when you're not doing drugs and you put that on that you're in real trouble.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, back when I first started smoking weed, me and my buddies, what we would do is we would try and sync up music to this guy.
		I don't remember his real name, but we called him The Rev. He was a televangelist in central Missouri.
		And he was very like, he did a lot of hand gestures and stuff like that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So we tried to find music that would sync up perfectly with him so we could mute him and watch him dance to music.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		See, now that's great.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I mean, I get it.
		We would do that.
		I don't think that's what you're doing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand why drugs are illegal, period.
		What should be illegal is whatever it is she's doing.
		Drugs that make whatever she's doing impossible to look at, I'm fine with.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, when she was younger, she had a prophetic vision that she said God gave her.
		And that was that she was going to be on all continents and that whenever she would speak, people would be saved and miracles would happen.
		But if she closed her mouth, all the evils of the world would happen and shit like that.
		So it's basically just like a sort of an allegorical explanation for why she doesn't shut up.
unidentified		All right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Listen.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I know.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't mean this to be like this lady is mouthy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
unidentified		I know.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's the problem.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		The problem is, she has got a spot where it's hard to attack her without dipping into the misogynistic language.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm not on board with any of that, but I will say if anybody wants to go listen to these episodes, please go for it and then feel sad for me trying to edit this stuff together or trying to find points where I can stop it.
		Because she doesn't ever stop talking.
		She just takes little breaths and then goes to new thoughts.
		It is just a rambling, like it's clearly she's on something.
		She's probably on Adderall or something.
unidentified		Just like, well, she's got a long flight.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She's traveling a lot.
		She's got to do some uppers.
		It turns out that her husband is the guy from Journey, so she knows a guy.
		It's no big deal.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's pressured speech elements to it.
		It's wild.
		So now, I believe that I have thoroughly called myself out at this point for the minimal and unfortunate life misogyny that I expressed by saying this broad earlier.
		But hey, hey, look, this is set up for the next clip.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		All right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Fair enough.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So I apologize for that if anyone's offended, but you should be more offended by this.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Some of the ladies, especially, men too, need this book.
		I don't know why I'm really feeling this thing with women today.
		They need it because that obedience.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		That's my whole life.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		That's what I've been saying.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, to God.
unidentified		And if you, if, if you, if you, people say, why does God use you, Jim?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		You're so fumbly, bumbly, and old.
		God uses me because I say yes all the time.
		That's all.
		That's all.
		And that's all.
unidentified		That's all.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		But that was that obedient.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And you admit it, you hear it.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I love it.
		I didn't know that was.
		Go ahead now.
unidentified		Let's haul.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's cringy.
unidentified		Oh, my God.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This hurts me physically.
		This hurts every part of the way that.
		The way they speak?
		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I actually kind of like how Jim speaks.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Don't.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I hate it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Every time he speaks.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's something cute about his vocal pattern.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Every time he speaks, I believe less in God.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Like, if God was real, he would shut that mouth he brought up and let Paula give Paula White talk.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, shut up, Jim.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Look, I understand what you're saying.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		What I'm more interested in as a whole is, boy, I have real red flags whenever con men preach obedience.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That always seems to me like, hey, maybe you just want people to be malleable and follow your everyday.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I just feel like women should really listen to this, and some men too.
		But I think women really should read your book because it's that obedience.
		That's what women don't, and some men too.
		But women don't understand obedience.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't know why I'm not.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Women don't understand obedience.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Do you hear me, Lori?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Tammy Sue.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, there's something that you can't get away from that's really there that you're expressing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't know why I'm feeling it.
		I don't know why I'm feeling like telling women what to do so much today.
		Come on, that sounds right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So the book that she wrote is about Esther.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, that's not good.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's a blank slate.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We'll get to that here in a second when she gets to it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But it's important that she's really idolizing Esther and being like, we need to raise up Esther's.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's not a good idea.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Why don't you choose Ruth?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Anyway.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think we both know why she doesn't choose Ruth.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We'll get to that in a little bit.
		But first, Paula White wants to tell you a little bit about what kind of man Donald Trump is.
		He's a good man, and she knows it because of a couple really innocuous details about his behavior.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And one of the best ways that I can describe him is if he says, I'm going to be there at 12 o'clock, he will be there at 12.
		I can tell you the story just like Mark Burnettwell of Wednesday.
		Mark Burnett came in and he says he's pitching, you know, he's got the survivor and he's pitching the show called The Apprentice.
		And he says to him, he pitches it, and now President Trump, then Mr. Trump, shakes his hand.
		This is important.
		He takes it and he shakes his hand.
		He says, deal.
		But I can't tell the amount because it wasn't nearly what he'd be making later.
		And he says, yes.
		And even Mark Burnett's told this to a certain degree.
		And afterwards, I was in his office not many months after that.
		And he's told me the story.
		They call his agent, and he's with a big, you know, one of the big agencies.
		And there's two, basically, William Morrison, CAA, and he's with one of the big agencies.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's like, no, no, no.
unidentified		You know a lot about agencies probably.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And he says to his agent, but I shook his hand.
		You aren't hearing what I'm saying.
		He said, but I shook his hand.
unidentified		Yes.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And the agent, the expert saying, don't do this.
		This is absolutely disaster.
		It didn't turn out to be too disastrous.
		He said, don't do this.
		He said, but I shook his hand.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So he's punctual and loves a handshake.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Great.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		President!
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because I know a lot of contracts that he's not honored, you know, historically.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, but he didn't shake his hand, Dan.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of contractors and stuff that haven't, you know, he hasn't paid.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they didn't shake his hand.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think that those are more important, though, the handshake of a contract.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right, but they didn't physically shake his hand.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't count.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I understand that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		God can't read English, Dan.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He didn't invent that shit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's a good point.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't know.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		As long as you write it in English, God can't follow up on it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's like, okay, well, translate it back into ancient Sumerian and then we'll figure it out from there.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But for Christ's sakes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I should have.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Also, I think God says that all the time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But you can't take a punctual puncture.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		For Christ's sake.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's fine.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You can't take away his punctuality, though.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You can't take away his punctuality.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's a man who knows how to be on time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This is how I would describe him.
		He's on time.
		Cool.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Awesome.
		It's a sincere talent.
		There's no equivocating I can make.
		It is a sincere talent to make a guy being on time one time, that story, into a like, and this is what kind of a great man he is.
		He can go somewhere and you will say to him, we should meet at 12 o'clock and he will meet you at 12 o'clock.
		Now, can you imagine a man who can do something like that?
unidentified		And the way she says it, you're like, I guess I can't.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I can very easily.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I would argue that when you pull out punctuality, that means you're having a tough time coming up with good attributes.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, he was on time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That seems like a really low, low-scale, sort of good character trait.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, look, okay.
		So, yes, he was not warm.
		He did not particularly enjoy my or his company.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He kept talking about not wanting to rent to black people.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He really, really wanted us to shut up when we were praying after our six.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He kept talking about jeans.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He did talk about jeans a lot.
		He really mentioned how white he was and how white he wished everyone.
		He's really German.
		But you know what?
		That's not bad because now he's blaming the Germans for not taking advantage of another Holocaust.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But he's on time.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He was on time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's like the trains in Germany.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He was on time.
		Right.
		Those were in Italy, right?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		All over the place.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, a lot of trains on time.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It was Mussolini who made the trains run on time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So did Hitler.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Anyway.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Any authoritarian leader loves trains.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, Jordan.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And so does Ayn Rand.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Trains are a big part of fascism.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It seems that way.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So, Jordan, we know one thing.
unidentified		What's that?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And that is that Jim Baker has got a lot of products that he likes to push.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Or at least years' worths of them.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So we talked a bit about the food buckets on the last episode.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Some of which will never not delight.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We don't learn anything more about the food buckets today, but he does do probably a 10-minute irresponsible commercial for a water bottle.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Now, hey, I know what you're saying.
		What are we going to do?
		We have all of this food, but clothes rot.
		Well, let me tell you something.
		If you send in $700, we will give you one buckets of clothes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's not a bad bucket.
unidentified		If you get it now, we will give you a second buckets of clothes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Somehow you still have to add water to make the clothes.
		Very weird.
		Dehydrated clothes.
unidentified		We suggest pairing a white wine with these.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So we got a water bottle commercial on this show.
		They do a very long commercial for this water bottle.
		And this is what I would describe as probably the most irresponsible part of it because if anybody else does what they do, I think there's a chance they'll get sick.
		And this is very dangerous.
		Don't do this.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember going into the rainforest?
unidentified		We went to the rainforest and they said, do not drink the water.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		We didn't know that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
unidentified		There were big signs that said, absolutely, do not drink the water.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		But we read the signs after we drank the water from our water bottle.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		So he just dipped his bottle right in the water.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we did.
unidentified		Here he sits.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		We sat in the rainforest in a little place with a roof on it, you know, like a couple of picnics thing.
		And we ate our lunch there.
		We'd packed and everything.
		And we drank our water from our bottle.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Non-drinkable water.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think it's kind of big.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		You're going to be dead right now if these bottles weren't good.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		They said there were pesticides and all types of nasty things inside there.
unidentified		We just drank right from it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a proven testimony that the bottles do work.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they work.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They don't destroy it.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		You know these bottles everything that they say show makes, they sell a big amount in Japan.
		They have great stuff all over the islands in armies.
		This is the number one bottle that armies use.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Why the hell did you drop that thought about Japan?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And then why did that guy say I'd hope so?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
unidentified		Is that a stereotype amongst white supremacist Christian evangelicals that I didn't know?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That Japanese people don't drink enough clean water?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm guessing.
		If I had to guess, I don't know this, but I'm just guessing it has to do with Fukushima.
		That's what I would guess.
		I'm guessing that they believe that all water is unclean and radiated in Japan or something like that.
		That's my guess, because I can't think of any other reason.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You don't think it's going to go back to Nagasaki or something?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, that's way too far.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Even if it's just like a random assignment, like I like to imagine it now as more of like whenever you buy a movie ticket and somebody's like, hey, enjoy your show.
		And you're like, yeah, you too.
		And you're like, God fuck, that doesn't make any sense.
		That, to me, sounds like he was just trying to.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You're saying, I'd hope so.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He was just trying to agree in whatever possible way he could.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'd hope everyone would agree.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And then it just got weird.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's very weird.
		I don't know.
		But don't do that.
		Don't.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Hey, you know what?
		I specifically hope the Japanese are using these.
		Everybody else, I am ambivalent about, but the Japanese better be using these water bottles.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I would also just like to say a public service announcement.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Unless you have to, don't do this with Amazon water.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Don't ever do that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Don't do this with any water you don't need to do that with.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's probably very competent to getting out like, you know, normal pollutants of water that you have with like, you know, people who have Britta filters and shit like that.
		It's probably very competent on that level.
		Don't trust it to take poisons out of your water.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Here are our examples.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We have one story from a group of known liars and hucksters.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Who also have a financial interest in this live.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		Yeah.
		And then we also have, I don't know, like naked and afraid.
		If you don't even want to leave your house to find out how terrible bacteria in your water can destroy you.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's dangerous.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead and watch Discovery Channel for a while.
		You'll never drink water again.
		That shit's gross.
		Unless you're in Japan, in which case, you better drink that water.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Drink the water.
		It's like the reverse of that Dave Matthews song.
		Do drink no water.
		Do drink it.
		There's no blood in the water.
		So this commercial interruption, Paula wasn't there for it.
		I guess it was probably pre-taped and they just dropped it in.
		And so now we get back to Paula.
		White.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If I was on the show and they started doing that water commercial and the guy Jonathan Kane was there, I'd just be like, yeah, man, it's like there's a lot of smoke on this water.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You know what I'm talking about, Jonathan Cain from Jerdy?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's deep purple.
unidentified		Smoke on the water.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that's my point.
		I would just be fucking with him the whole time.
		Every song.
		Every classic rock song.
		Every fucking one.
		Throw it into his faces.
		Any references possible.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I was trying to come up with a way to bring in lights.
		If I drank this water, me and my stomach would have to go separate ways.
		So anyway, now Paula comes back.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't need no instructions to know how to drink water.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		What was that?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Foreigner.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Never mind.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It was not a big hit.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I know.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No instructions.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Fuck off.
		No, fuck off.
		No, no, no.
		Fine.
		Whatever.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Oh, boy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Now my classic rock is gone.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The boys are back in town, and they brought water filters.
		If the boys are going to drink water, you better let them.
		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Paula comes back.
		And she says some stupid shit.
		I mean, what are you going to do?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		I need to ask you, how can the president?
unidentified		You can always get what you want, clean water.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Withstand the hatred and the pressure.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Everything he says, they turn it around.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		There's never been hatred like this.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I've never seen it.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		It's a precedent.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I've never in my life seen it.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		They want to trip him up.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		They ask for him to be assassinated, even.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm going to even take it further, right?
		I'm going to take it further because we are not wrestling against flesh and blood.
		And there are people right now that are sending hate mail to me right now that are going to say, I can't believe you say this, but you've got to recognize what the real deal is.
		Especially if you are a Christian right now, you have a responsibility that Jesus Christ gave you the infallible word of God and told you that you are not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She says principalities about 25 times.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She says principalities a lot?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Against darkness, against witness, wickedness.
		And so you know the quadrants of the enemy, and the principalities are going crazy because principalities want to control nations by controlling a person.
		And principalities cannot control this man because he surrounds himself with Christians.
unidentified		He is a Christian.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He may be a Christian.
unidentified		He loves prayer.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And like John said, he is fierce.
		He has a fortitude.
		He has an inner strength.
		But no man could withstand this kind of pressure.
		So I'm going to take it a step further.
		We've got to pray.
		I mean, not just pray, but fervently pray.
		Men ought to always pray and not faint.
		We have a responsibility, whether you like him or don't like him.
		You can't stand in God's word and not be responsible to pray for those who are in positions of authority.
		It is our God-given mandate.
		It is our responsibility.
unidentified		You've got to pray the will of God to be done for him and through him.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		You've got to pray in alignment, not solely.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Still going.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Because if you pray soullish prayers, they're going to backfire and come back on you.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This is Whitney Houston holding the note at the end of the bodyguard, man.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This is long.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, but see, that's what I'm saying.
		I wanted to leave all that there to give a little bit of a taste.
		That's most of the show.
unidentified		Whoa.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Her taking those little breaths and keeping going and just being like, with just random ass that's all principalities.
		Quadrants.
		That is soullish prayer.
		That is all.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's Alex Jones.
unidentified		It is.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what Alex is.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's 100%.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		100% Alex.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We all wrestle with flesh and blood.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We wrestle with demons.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Ryan.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Brings in these code words that supposedly mean something.
		Quadrants of the enemy.
		You know, the quadrants.
		The principalities can't take over Trump's.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You've seen the 34-year-old men.
		You've got the elderly.
		You've got, what are the four quadrants again?
		Those are the ones that are important for selling movies.
		Right, right.
		She's so talking in TV production.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And marketing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She is so talking in marketing and TV production.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You know, the quadrants of the enemy are the markets that we don't tap into.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Those are the ones who don't give me any money, so fuck them.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Fuck them.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think that's kind of the subtext.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Pretty much.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Maybe all of this.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I think that's.
		It's weird that she's giving up the like she's not even bothering to, to be better at hiding that.
		She's talking about TV, like everything she's talking about.
		She's not even bothering.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Interesting, you should, I wonder.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		If that develops.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You should at least try to be like.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I am not talking about hitting a targeted audience of people who are both afraid of black people and also believe in a bull version of Christianity.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You know the demographics of our enemy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They are in the non-white males.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Look, look out amongst yourselves in this audience, you old white people, all of you.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We know the demographics we're against.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Hey, look at you old white people.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Hey, all those old white people out there, choose any demographic you're against.
		Guess what?
		Ah, that's the ones we're against.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Bad quadrant, turns out, it's about all of them.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So you know how Alex Jones uh uh, and all of these people put on victimhood as a sort of a suit of armor.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Dude Trump, when she said that Trump is withstanding a level of criticism that no man could withstand in the natural people fucking lynched Obama in effigy.
		I was gonna say set it on fire, were they?
		I mean, I get why they don't remember that and that's because they weren't doing it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They don't want.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She herself had a lynched Obama effigy on her home and then she's like no man could withstand this.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They're very keenly aware, whether they want to admit it or not, that the people who do support them are largely of that ilk.
		Yeah, and it does them uh, no favors to admit that.
		So you pretend that piece of history didn't happen.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No one has.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's a small piece of history.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Think about the presidents who have actually been killed.
unidentified		Oh yeah, like who?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I can't think of any, you know.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, I will tell you who did it, though.
		The quadrants that we are against, i'll tell you that's who killed those presidents, except for the one that killed that one guy who was against slavery.
		That was the quadrant that we were super, for.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Let's not talk about those quadrants.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Those quadrants are great, though.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So you know what?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's not just presidents that are under attack, it's people of god like Jim Baker.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I was standing up for for Trump, miss past Pastor, Trump president Trump, it was and it I was it.
		I was in a warfare.
		Physically, I became physically beat down.
		I mean just I thought I was gonna die and then I got quite injured.
unidentified		That from one of the watchers who watches the watchers.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		They said, if you don't stop, We're going to destroy you.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And they got a hold of one of the members of my family and told him, so you tell your dad.
unidentified		Yeah.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		He'll never preach again.
		He'll never.
		And I had to decide.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		By the way, I know he's trying to be vague because this story isn't true, but he just sold out Tammy Sue real hard because he said, Your dad.
unidentified		Yeah.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And you know what?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		I've come too far.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He has more than one kid to turn back.
		Yeah, he's proud for not.
		No, what he's really talking about is one of the many kids that are not his legitimate kids who are like, hey, for real, I'm here.
		Could you please.
		And he was like, ah, you're not real.
unidentified		Get out of here.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You're one of the watchers.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We'll get into the details in a second.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		He'll never preach again.
		He'll never.
		And I had to decide.
		And you know what?
		I've come too far.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		To turn back.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for not compromising.
unidentified		Thank you.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		This is the reason I was born.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This is, you know.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And America needs God.
		We're in deep trouble.
		And this is.
		I don't think there's another chance.
unidentified		I think it's over if we don't allow a great global awakening and for global?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Global.
		But I mean, I don't think that they have the same stupid ideas about globalists and shit like that.
		But yeah, what do you think about Jim Baker being threatened, my dude?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		To me, what that sounds more like is while he was doing time, he had himself a thought experiment of like, okay, well, I'm doing time for all the crimes that I committed.
		And I can either get a job as like a guy and just have a job, or I can just keep on doing them crimes, but do them better.
		That's what I'm hearing.
		And I'm hearing him say, I don't like working at Macy's, so I'm going to keep doing them crimes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't want to end up like some, you know, some celebrity, some minor celebrity who ends up working at Starbucks or something like that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Well, what's that, Jim Baker, the Walmart greeter?
		Fuck that.
		Time for me and God to ride for the money.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I can't remember his name, but one of the WCW announcers, one of the old awesome WCW announcers, works at a Starbucks now.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it's like one of those, like Jim Baker would never do that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He would sooner start a sooner start a doomsday cult, which he has done.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I mean, or at the very least, he would sooner go back to jail for the same crimes that he has already committed.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But he knows that he doesn't have to go to jail as Trump is in office.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		As long as Trump is in office, he is a free man.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He will get a pardon if anything goes wrong.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		For the pettiest of reasons.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So I told you that Paula White has written this book about Esther.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And what I think is more important is I don't know if she likes Esther as much as she hates another character in that story, which she gets into in this next clip.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And let me tell you something.
		Vashtai is easy to be replaced because Vashtai, who is married to the king, Vashtai, and this is what people don't recognize.
		You say, what is God doing?
		Vashtai did not serve purpose.
		And because she did not serve purpose, when the king, and it seems, oh, this is silly, but he shouldn't have asked this.
		It doesn't matter.
		The king asked her to dance.
		The king asked her.
		But because she could not be obedient to what was asked of the king, because sometimes we think, well, we want to do it, and we negotiate with God.
		If the king asks you to do something, then you do it.
		If the king asks you to stand up and to take your show and to be in support of President Trump, it doesn't matter.
		If people troll you, if people lie about you, if people hate on you, if people leave you, it doesn't matter.
		Because if God be for you, then who can be against you?
unidentified		Because God is looking for someone who will say yes to God's agenda, to the king's agenda.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And so what it was, it doesn't matter if you understand the instruction of the king.
		It doesn't matter.
		It matters if you are obedient.
		Because God, Vashtai, could be replaced because she wouldn't serve purpose.
		So God finds this young girl Esther, whose name literally means myrtle tree.
		Myrtle trees come from the bottom.
unidentified		It means come from bottom places.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		It means you get overlooked.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		It means God will raise you up.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So she just rambles a whole bunch, but she hates Vashti.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And it's interesting because I don't care to talk about the entire story of the book of Esther or anything like that, but I would like to talk about Vashti a little bit.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She was a character who, if I recall correctly, said no to a man and was thus appropriately punished for it in the time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, the reason that she said no was she was the queen of Asuerus, the king in Persia.
		Look, the issue is the translation, the scholars who study it, the understanding of the story is that the king got drunk and he called people to bring her to dance in her crown.
		And the understanding of the text is that meant that he wanted her to dance naked in front of them, which is an incredibly inappropriate request for someone to make of the queen, even if you're the king back then, in that culture, especially.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's incredibly inappropriate.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Period.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So she said no, and then Esther came in and was a replacement.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Once again, a great story about dudes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I would argue that this is a bad story about obedience.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Look, ladies, ladies, what I'm just trying to tell you, what I'm telling you about.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand why your man wants you to do that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And obedience is that when the king tells you to do something, you do whatever it is.
		Just like when my husband asked me to do something, I don't do what the fuck he tells me to do because fuck him.
		I'm not in journey.
		You don't tell me what to do.
		Anyways, Esther, she did whatever was asked of her.
		Dance naked in the crown, it doesn't fucking matter.
		Women, do whatever you're told to do.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		People who have studied it, again, I just need this to be incredibly clear.
		In the time, in the context of it, this is an outrageously inappropriate request for a king to be making of a queen.
		And the idea that she said no, like we know why he wanted her to come dance naked.
		One, humiliation.
unidentified		Yep.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Two, to give his friends a boner.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Or to make his friends jealous or something.
		Any of those motivations.
		There is no higher purpose to that come dance naked for me and my drunk friends.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		God asked her to do it, though, Dan.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, he didn't.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But he did.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He didn't.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		The king asked her.
		God appointed the king.
		Kings, gods, boom.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She was a Zoroastrian.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, she didn't even know about the God that she was supposed to be listening to, and that's another issue for me.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She should have known.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Zoroastrian.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that's not important.
		The important part is that God of a different faith, whom that guy didn't know, appointed him king to do shit the way that he said he should do it.
		And what was my point again?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		No.
		I think that the idea here, which I think is very dangerous, especially in a modern world, is that what she's advocating for is you say yes to this obviously inappropriate, confusing, humiliating request from the king because then you'll be able to stay around and maybe have some influence later, which makes me think Trump has had some really fucked up requests for her.
		I'm not saying dance naked or anything like that.
		No, I'm not.
		My mind isn't in the gutter or anything like that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But the idea of shady business deals, the idea of she knows shit that she's not saying, that sort of thing.
		You keep your mouth shut, and then you'll have the ear of the king.
		Absolutely.
		That sort of thing.
		That mentality, if that's the lesson that she's getting from Vashti and Esther's story, I think, like beyond even the heresies that she's guilty of, I think you have a really warped and dirty version of Christianity that you're pedaling.
		You're pedaling a dangerous version.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But they let you do it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You can run up on them like a bitch.
unidentified		They let you do it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can move on like a bitch.
		No big deal.
		You're the king.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The other thing, too, is that I need to make this point crystal clear.
		It's all about this idea of obedience.
		That trend is not an accident on this show.
		The show is so much about quizzical obedience, obedience that you don't even understand why you're obeying.
		That sort of thing is very important to people with this sort of an agenda.
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This sort of message that they want to put out.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I remember it in youth group.
		I remember it in church.
		I remember it all the time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And we'll get to the payoff of that here in a second.
		But first, man, Paula's about to say something really scary.
		And then Jim is about to, I think, make the audience really uncomfortable.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		We were not sent into this earth to fit in or just to, we weren't just sit here to be a part.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		We were sent here to take over.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Are you listening?
		That's the church.
		That's why we have the president we have.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't fit.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Amen.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		He's not a normal president.
unidentified		Amen.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And here's a woman who is from the bottom land.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		But God has raised her up.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So real quick, before we get into the rest of this, now Jim has stood up.
		And the audience, there's a thin line between excitement and discomfort going on in the audience.
		Because Jim, I don't think, stands up very often.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, I doubt it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The spirit is really getting to him with this, Paula.
		Right.
		Because he knows that she has the ear of the president and also that she is one of the big mega church televangelist preachers.
		Like, he's not slumming it here hanging out with Paula White King.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's looking up to her right now.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This is like what I would describe it as like, you know, on a podcast, like when Jimmy Pardo had Paul Reiser on or something like that.
		It's like, we got this guy to come into the show.
		This is very exciting.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Jim is really excited that Paula's there.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I can tell.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And I think he's trying to preach a little bit in order to impress her.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's out of the game, though.
		He's not at her preaching levels.
		He's not doing 10 sets a night.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So he's standing up now and yelling at the audience.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		To the White House!
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		To the walls!
unidentified		Till the sweat drips down on me in the valley of the shadow of death!
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Time and time again!
unidentified		Yes.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		She now can walk into the White House anytime she wants to.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		She has full access to, in the Bible days, the king, the president.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Why?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Because used her and broke her.
unidentified		Yes.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And she's been through that brokenness.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		But the Bible declares, can I keep preaching?
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		No, the Bible declares.
unidentified		This is it.
unidentified		This is it.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I love the messengers and whoa.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So when I said there was a discomfort, you could hear that, like, I think what was going on, if I had to guess, I would guess that the teens that he has working the applause sign got confused by him standing up and yelling at the audience.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He didn't know quite where to punctuate his yelling with applause.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		They're still learning.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		They're still in school.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And so I think.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And they haven't had sex for a long time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No masturbating.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		How would you even know where the applause sign begins or ends if you haven't come in a month?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So they're all fumbling with their boners and not being able to hit the right points.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
unidentified		So he yells like, she's in the White House.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Silence.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I'm a big fan of the weird, gross, Scooby-Doo villain-esque.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It is ghostly.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That is bad.
		Yeah.
		I don't know.
		On another level, I kind of love it because it is one of those things that, like, you know, it's not every day you get to see Jim Baker try and pull his skills out.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of like, I don't know, an old former pro ball player going down to the park and like trying to play pickup ball with kids.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Or whatever.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, they do a good job or whatever, but maybe some guy's going to dunk on them.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's Rocky V. Sure.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Let's go with that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'll allow that metaphor.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You can't be doing that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		So, Jim, good on you.
		I appreciate it.
		But now we get back to the obedience thing, and this reveal will not surprise anybody, but this is why they keep talking about obedience.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		So that you can see what he's called you to do.
		And then somebody needs to obey God right now because you need to give a lot more than $45.
		You need to give thousands of dollars in obedience for the word of the Lord that is coming.
		I pray right now for revelation to come to you.
unidentified		Amen.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I pray right now that God would open your eyes according to Ephesians 1, 17 and 18, that the eyes of your understanding might be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of the riches of the glory of your inheritance as saints.
unidentified		Wow.
		Wow.
		Ugh.
		Wow.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Putting on a show.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		How impressive is that?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Putting on a show.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's crazy.
		But that's the payoff of the obedience.
		You talk about obedience all the time, and now you're like, what you need to do is obey.
		They've already earlier introduced a concept of $45 because it's the 45th president.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure, sure, sure.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And the Easter sale.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They always do this.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Give your Easter sale gift to God or whatever it is.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They always do this with symbolic meanings of money.
		If there's a Bible verse that's like, you know, like 818 or something like that, like this is a specific example.
		Paula White has been like, give me $818 in a year on a monthly basis.
		It's blank because that adds up to this scripture.
		Sure.
		Sure.
		Why not?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Great.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		How about I give you a wand?
unidentified		Sure.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's all magic.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't give a shit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And I don't think, I don't think that asking people to support you in creative endeavors or whatever like that is a negative thing.
		I think that the way that this sort of economy has come up of supporting artists who create stuff and all the people who support our show, I think it's great.
		But if I were to come up and try and manipulatively trick people into donating to us, it would be as evil and ugly as well.
		They could do this on the level.
		There's no reason to do it like this.
unidentified		Of course not.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This is so manipulative and tricky.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, there is a reason to do it like this.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because it works better.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Get more people.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It works better.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Look, if we had a GoFundMe for our show, and at the end, the end goal was like, we're going to put out a better show.
		Like, people would not be as driven to that as opposed to if we all of a sudden were just like save your souls.
		Dan has cancer.
		Dan is dying.
		We need $50,000, which is the symbolic amount in Ephesians' $50,000 verse.
		Dan needs money.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We would get more money than that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		So, of course, you lost.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		When you play on people's strings and their emotions and stuff like that, you're able to get them to, again, we've talked about this a bunch.
		You override the part of your brain that works on a rational system and you overwhelm it with this emotional response.
		And I'll be honest, I didn't get into it as much as I did the last time listening to Jim Baker where he, like, the swelling music and the vignettes kind of were like, oh, man, this is great.
		But, like, listening to Paula, I kind of understood how you could be tricked into almost a hypnotic state by the way she speaks.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, absolutely.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The quick measure, like the measure of her speech, the way she never ends a sentence.
		It always leads into something else.
		There's always a reference to something, and it's all ostensibly backed in some sort of biblical truth when she's just making shit up.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, she's trying to run a non-stop guitar solo.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But it's very, I see how it works.
		And I mean, take ethics and morality out of it.
		I respect it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I can feel it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		In the same way that I respect Alex's former gifts as an amazing broadcaster, I respect this in terms of like, I know what you're doing.
		You're trying to get people to give you money with the sweet candy shell around the M ⁇ M of Christianity.
		For sure.
		The shell is the Christianity.
		The chocolate is I want money.
		You trick people in with those bright colors of the M ⁇ Ms, and then they eat that sub-par chocolate, and then they're like, all right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's so similar to if you've been, like, if you've been doing stand-up for so long, at a certain point, you stop seeing jokes, and you start people, you start seeing, oh, this person is just doing the sleight of hand.
		This is just the rhythm.
		This is just the, you pause for but and then and that's all you need to do.
		Like, she has got the patter down so good.
		I, you can, and, and even now, even in my cynical, yeah, no, even in my cynical, monstrous state of mind that I am in now, I can still feel that I went to, like, I went to God camp when I was like 14, and I can still feel getting into that moment where that, that preacher revival.
		Yeah, just doing that whole, you gotta, you gotta believe it, you gotta, and then all of a sudden there's all, there's 314-year-olds going, yeah, we need to get baptized, whatever it is.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I used to have a bit about this.
		I don't know if I've ever told you this story, but one time I went to Bible camp and I pretended to be overwhelmed by the spirit.
		Did I ever tell you about that?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think so.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So I went to like a Baptist mega church when I was like formative years.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's what my parents landed on after the Mennonite church in our town didn't work out.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And Plymouth Rock.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Didn't land on us.
		We landed on.
		Who cares?
		Yeah.
		So we went to a Mennonite church, but it just didn't have the right feel.
		So we went to a bunch of places and tried to find the right fit.
		We ended up at this Baptist mega church.
		And it was the sort of place where, I mean, there wasn't like snakes and talking in tongues or anything like that.
		Right.
		Boring.
		But it was the soft version of that where adults would be putting their hands up and some people would go.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Getting Holy Ghosted.
unidentified		Yes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Holy ghosted.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes you would see people on their knees during the songs and stuff like that because they had been overwhelmed by the Spirit.
		Or maybe they fall down in an aisle or something like that.
		Not aggressively, not like over the top, like where the preacher is touching them and they fall down.
unidentified		Right, right, right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So, I had this sort of image in my head of what it meant to really feel God's presence.
		And it really bothered me that I'd never felt it.
		And so, I went to camp one year, and it was through the church.
		We went to this camp, and I decided, I made a mental decision that I was going to force it.
		And so, during one of the songs, I don't know what it was, but the only song I really remember they played every time was Our God is an Awesome God, He Reigns.
unidentified		It is an awesome God here from here and don't stop believing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Wait, what?
unidentified		Okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Jonathan Kane was on the keys.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It was a great retreat.
unidentified		Yep.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So during whatever this song was, I just decided I'm doing it.
		And so I fell to my knees.
		And I acted like I was overwhelmed by Holy Ghosted.
		But then it dawned on me that as I got down there, I didn't feel anything.
		I thought that doing the act would force the feeling.
unidentified		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And I thought God would come in and be like, all right, you did it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And somehow that would cheat code.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		All right.
		Up, up, down, up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, AB, AB, AB.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I thought for sure it would work.
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And it didn't.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And it introduced the worst feeling I've ever had in my life, which was, I cannot stand up now.
unidentified		I was just.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I was completely fucked.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		I thought you just wrote a short story that should be added to Winesburg, Ohio.
		What the fuck just happened here?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I had artificial.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Holy shit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I had acted like I was overwhelmed by the spirit that led me to come to my knees.
unidentified		Made you realize that the spirit isn't even real in the first place.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm surrounded by my peers in the youth group who are all like, oh my God, Dan's having an experience.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And I didn't want to stand up and be like, I was faking that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Of course not.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because then I got to still stay at camp.
unidentified		I can't just go home.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What day is this?
		This is like day two.
		Oh, no, you're fucked.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm there for a week.
		So I had to sort of play it out.
		And so what I did is I faked crying a little bit.
		Like I put my head down on a chair.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's always a smart move.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And then people came over and like patted me and stuff like that.
		And I was like, thank you, thank you.
		And then I minded my own business and went to bed because I didn't want to have a bad thing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's actually how most Dan stories wind up ending.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But it was so disappointing on so many levels.
		One is that, well, that doesn't work, first of all.
		And then second, I was like, why did I do that?
		Like, why was that an impulse that I had?
		Like, I thought that I could get around God on a technicality of it.
		And then just like.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Well, but isn't that what these people think?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know, I know.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But like, but that's the memory that comes up in my head when I listen to people like this who are like trying to get people into that state.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like, because she's doing that.
		She's trying to get people to throw your hands in the air.
		Like, trying to get people to overwhelm their limbic systems in order to get on her side.
		And, I mean, we've been there.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		See, this is why I don't understand these people.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I will never, now, anytime I'm at the same time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I understand too well.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They're all full of shit.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, that's what I'm saying.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The innocent people are desperate.
		I think maybe not all of them, but I'd say a vast majority of them are like me when I was 14, who really wanted to feel that thing that they saw other people feel and were willing to play along in order to maybe try and have that experience.
		Now, whether or not they're the same as me, and when they had it, they realized this is all artificial.
		What am I doing?
		Or whether they're like, oh, I am going to tell myself I had a profound experience.
		That's a whole nother issue.
		But I think that a lot of people are well-meaning people who want that extra human experience.
		They want something super spiritual.
		They want to feel something that's not the normal day-to-day experience of life, and it's really abusive when you tell people that you know how to do it and you got to give them money to do it.
		Like, it's because it's such a natural impulse that people have.
		If you go back and you read anything from history, it's something that everyone always feels.
		You don't want to feel like an animal, you or if you do want to feel like an animal, it's like Aleister Crowley.
		You want to feel that enlightened animal, that visceral wild animal kind of thing.
		You don't want to feel like I'm just a biological accident.
		You want to have a profound connection to something bigger.
		And a lot of people understand that there is a way to make money off of that supposed hole in the human psyche.
		And I think that that's maybe one of the most evil things that has ever happened.
		That people are able, like, they know they can manipulate it, and they do.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because it's so fucked up.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We're alcoholics.
		What else are we doing?
		What do you mean?
		Like, I mean, what else is that?
		But to me, if you can experience that feeling by meditation.
		Right.
		If you can experience that feeling by going to a fucking Kanye West concert.
		If you can do all that stuff there, all of that stuff is great.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I have no problem with the never-ending quest for human transcendence in a moment.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I have a problem with the commodification, the manipulation.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't even have a problem with that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think I have a problem with the commodification to take away from it because, like, if we include going to the gym as sometimes being able to be a transcendent experience, there are shitty people who try and sell you abusive gym memberships.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But it's not the same.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's not the same.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I guess it's.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because the gym doesn't market itself as something for your soul.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Well, sometimes it does, though.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But that's a fucked-up gym.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of fucked-up gyms out there.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's a really, really fucked up gym.
unidentified		And I mean, this is a fucked-up form of Christianity.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Like, this is all fucked up.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This whole fucking thing is ridiculous.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I don't know.
		I guess my problem is whenever people try and tell you.
		I think that's my biggest problem with all this stuff.
		Because, look, if you're going for a fucking spiritual experience, human history has shown us that you can find one.
unidentified		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And I am fine with you trying all of them.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		My problem comes when you deal with these people who say that I'm the only way you can have one of these spiritual experiences.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The other ones you have aren't real.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If you don't have one through me, not only are you not having a spiritual experience, you're worse.
		You're the worst.
		You're worse off for not even, you know.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's part and parcel of the prosperity gospel and stuff like that.
		Because the idea is you give this seed of money and then it grows into more money coming back for you.
		And there's a built-in trapdoor to explain why that doesn't work, and that is you didn't want it hard enough.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Or you didn't give enough.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You didn't give enough.
		You didn't actually, somewhere deep inside your heart, you weren't doing the right things.
		You didn't love God enough.
		You didn't follow.
		You didn't obey enough.
		That sort of thing.
		And so any preacher can just, any preacher like these people can just slip around that sort of thing.
		It's like, yeah, there's a built-in excuse to blame the person who's the victim of the con.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Always.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And it's it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I have no words for how much I hate this.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's cruel.
unidentified		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And it's prey.
		It's prey.
		Like, I guess the best word for it is prey.
		They love turning people into prey because they are fucking animals.
		And they are predators.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She's friends with our president.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Who is it?
		Also, he moves on her like a bitch.
		I'll tell you that right now.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So, in this next clip, Jordan, you were making an astute observation that I didn't know if you would pick up on as early as you did, that Paula White Kane doesn't seem to really be interested in hiding the fact that she's talking about like demographic stuff, the quadrants of enemies, and like TV terms and stuff like that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She might as well be asking what her Sunday ratings are.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I thought that this next clip was pretty like, this is weird.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I think we're from the same tribe.
		I know the system.
		I know the system really well.
		I understand.
		Listen, I know how to do TV blindsided.
		I can close my eyes now, just like you, Pastor Jim.
		But we don't do it by the world ways.
		We don't do it by the system because we do it by the Spirit of God now.
		That we are not afraid or intimidated or trying to fit in or trying to be popular.
		We are being purposeful.
unidentified		That's right.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Because we are doing what thus saith the Lord, because we want to hear God say, Well done.
		So, enlargement and deliverance is coming to God's people.
		But then he turns around and says, He says, But will you be the carrier of it?
		Because it's coming.
		But if you don't do this, he says, Then destruction will come to you and your father's house.
		In other words, God is going to bring enlargement.
		God is going to bring deliverance.
		But the question is, will you be a part of it?
		Will you get in the game?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Enlargement is direct TV for real.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Why haven't you picked up my goddamn show yet?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We are bringing God to you at 4 p.m. Eastern, 3 p.m. Central.
unidentified		That's 1 p.m. Pacific time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Granitch Mean.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, what are we doing?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, enlargement is prosperity gospel code for the money that comes back when you plant those seeds.
		So she's talking very directly about the idea of like, all this is coming.
		Are you going to get on board with it?
		And she started that fucking sentence by saying, we can do this in our sleep.
		We know what to do.
		I know how to manipulate these people.
		She's essentially just pulling her dick out on air and just being like, hey, I know what to do.
		I don't give a shit about you guys.
		Hey, look at this.
		You're so stupid.
		You're so stupid.
		Look at you, you dumb sheep.
		I can manipulate you with my eyes blindsided.
		Yep.
		It's crazy.
		It's another level of brazenness.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Which only deepens and heightens my respect for her.
		It's not that hard to con people.
		It is really hard to tell people you're conning them and then have them believe you, anyways.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Some people just like the thrill of the hunt.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She's like someone out there hunting boar with a knife.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Instead of a gun.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She's like up in her, she's up in her degree of difficulty rating.
		If we're in the playing on New Game Plus, yeah, if we're doing dives here, Jim Baker, barely able to do a straight swan dive without a splash.
		She is fucking backflips and all the turns and all that shit.
		Yeah, she's nailing it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She's the Rodney Dangerfield and back to school of televangelism.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So in this next clip, man, this made me so fucking, this made me feel so weird.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This made me feel so weird.
		So there's a relic that ends up showing up on the show.
		A relic.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		A relic.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They don't call it that, but that's how Jim is acting.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This is the Shroud of Turin?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's so fucked up.
		But then at the end of this clip, we get something that is very familiar to our podcast.
		And I would say this, if there ever is a Jim Baker Mike Down clip, this is it.
unidentified		Okay.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		This is a platform.
		We're sitting on a platform.
		This is why you call it stage, a platform.
		But the platform of Donald Trump says, I'm against abortion.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The platform is also an album by the Dilated Peoples.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		The platform says he wants to appeal the Johnson Amendment, which You were there when he signed it, right?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And there's the pen.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		My goodness.
unidentified		How is he?
		This is the pen.
		I was just, I felt like the heavens had opened.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I can't describe this moment.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		And the inauguration and this were probably two of the women back there.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And there they're in the pink dress.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		I was like, I mean, when I say, I just give God all the glory because people don't, I think, fully understand.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Can I touch that pen?
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		This is what I waited for most of my life.
unidentified		I have fought.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		The government has tried to destroy the church people for decades and decades and decades.
		And he said, as long as I am president, no more ground.
		And he signed with this pen.
unidentified		Can you see the pen?
unidentified		Signed with this pen.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		And then he reached over and he handed it to this little lady.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		I can call you a little lady because you are little.
unidentified		Oh, precious.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		What a major moment.
		Now, I want to give.
		I want to.
		Sit down.
unidentified		For a 45.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		I'm asking to help.
		You got to give it back, though, obey.
		For $45 to help us stay on the air.
		We need support.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Ad pivot.
		Jim Baker just did an ad pivot after almost coming in his pants about a pen.
		That's outrageous.
		That's next level.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I am rooting for climate change to win.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You were going through some stuff.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I have now given up entirely on humanity.
unidentified		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		There is no point to any of this.
		Those people were all going ape shit for a pen.
		He turned a pen being signed for fucking whatever into an ad pivot.
		Why?
		Why do we, why really?
		Like, do we even need us?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Do you see this pen?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Do we even need us?
unidentified		This pen is what I've been fighting for my whole life.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		Then stop and die.
		Die.
		Fuck a pen.
		If Obama handed me a fucking pen during the height of his tenure in the White House, I'd still be like, this is a fucking pen.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He's like, this is the pen that I used to sign the ACA.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'd be like, I don't, it's a fucking pen.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's cool.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Why didn't you get single payer passed, you piece of shit?
		That's my response.
		Well, who is impressed by?
		Why are so many people impressed by a pen?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's a relic.
unidentified		It's not.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's a fucking asshole's pen.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's like a shroud of pen.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		They're assholes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's like the shroud of tourism.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Your assholes.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Nah, man.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I would not.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's big stuff.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I could not.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You got to worship that pen.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I have a dream now of just fucking going to one of these shows and just losing my shit.
		I want to go full streaker at the World Cup.
		Like, I want to rip into that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He's very educated.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I want to fucking tear everything to part.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It would not work.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Jim has, on one of these episodes that I watched, did say that people get paid to come and try and disrupt his show.
		So he's aware.
		He's got security.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he's.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There are also 18-year-olds who are probably working for free.
unidentified		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So I think we'd be all right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I could probably just bang them.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Probably just bang heads.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Hey, you ever.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You ever have fun?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You ever had fun before?
unidentified		All right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Really not.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because you work.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Come on.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah, man.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Let's go have a beer.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So he's talking about the Johnson Amendment.
		That's what Trump had an executive order loosening.
		And the Johnson Amendment, for everyone who doesn't know, has to do with churches as part of their 501c3 status that they can't advocate for or in opposition to any candidate in public office.
		That's the major part that they really hate.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Put through because it's almost like that part is trying to keep them from creating a theocracy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And I mean, we can't have that if your entire religion is built around the concept of a theocracy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's one part of it, but it was put forth in 1954.
		And if you think about what was going on in 1954, you had a lot of World War II.
		You had a lot of Christian organizations in heavy quotes who were not super into equal rights.
		I can't think of any of them with three initials that were not into Amway?
		Yep, that's it.
unidentified		Okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So you had sort of agitating groups hiding under the auspices of Christianity.
		And I think a large portion of lynching under the auspices of Christianity.
		I think one of the good things that the Johnson Amendment is capable of is sort of trying to split up some of that.
		And I don't think that a church is a place for political messages.
		And if you think it is, I think we have a fundamental disagreement about what faith is and what our country is.
		Anyway.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think that's already been the case for a long time.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		All this dingham.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And that ad pivot.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Pretty harsh.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That was a harsh ad pivot.
		That was a really.
		He went from God and it seemed so sincere.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He really seemed so stoked about it.
		And then immediately after the ad pivot, all of the pre-show screening showed up in my head of them being like, okay, we want you out here.
		Do you have anything?
		Do you have a relic special?
		And they're like, I've actually got this pen that Trump gave me.
		And they're like, fuck yes.
		We are going to turn that into a set piece.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Lie about it being what he signed the stripping of the Johnson Amendment.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Jim, we need you to really fuck.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You're going to need to stand up for this one.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And then, Jim, we're going to need you to mumble that you want $45.
unidentified		Yep.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Time is now.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We need you to really incompetently do an ad.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Please give me $45.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If you thought that $45 wasn't worth it, let me show you a pen.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's a great pen.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Done.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So, in this next clip, we have another moment where Jim actually tries to preach a little bit.
		And this one, more unsettling than the first.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he's out of the game.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		You know, I say this.
		You're the greatest woman preacher in the world.
		Forgive me for saying that.
unidentified		and a heretic I don't want to embarrass you but it's true but you are And what you're saying is the message for this minute.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		In America.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		It's the brokenness.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		What are you going to do?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Are you going to curl up and die?
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Come on.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Preach it, sir.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Because you made a mistake?
unidentified		Right.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Because something went wrong?
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Are you listening to me?
unidentified		You are.
unidentified		God sent his son to die on the cross because you would blow it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Also.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Wait, what?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		About.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Was that why God sent his son to die on the cross?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		About his son?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Because you would blow it?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Wait, that's not the message.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Also, about...
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Because you would blow it?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But also, about that son that you seem to love yelling about.
		Paula has some weird ideas about him.
		You should ask her about him.
		Don't want to do that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Well, she would blow it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's why God said his son to die.
unidentified		And he uses the weak things to confound.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		The Donald Trump to confound the wise.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What is that?
unidentified		Who said?
		That's why we love him so much.
		That's why we stand up for Jesus Christ.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		That's why we won't give him up.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		That's why we're not going to let him tear the crosses from our buildings.
unidentified		The cross!
		The cross.
		Forgive me.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		You just got me too excited.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You are too excited.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No one's asking to tear your cross down, buddy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Enjoy your cross.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Man, the only people that make me want to take the things away from them that they are afraid of me taking away from them are the people who are afraid of me taking them away from them.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They kind of know that, and you are facilitating the continuation of the circle.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's just like, no, I don't want to take your cross away.
		You want to take my cross away.
		Well, now I want to take your cross away.
		You're making me want to take your cross away.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But see, here, you've now touched into what he's actually talking about and why this has nothing to do with religion.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The reason that you want to take his cross away, I think, even though you don't care about Christianity and neither do I, is because he's not a church.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		The reason that anyone would want to be like, hey, you need to shut down, isn't because the message of God or anything like that.
		Though I would put myself more in the agnostic category.
		I'm open to ideas of spirituality and shit like that.
		I don't have a hard line like a lot of atheists do.
		Right.
		But I have no love lost between me and the Christian church of any denomination.
		But at the same time, I'm super thrilled that they exist and I think they should exist.
		Same as all Muslim churches, Buddhist temples, all of it across the board, Jewish synagogues.
		I can name them all.
		Shinto huts.
		I don't know.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I like community baseball teams.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's the same shit to me.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Somewhat, but it isn't for a lot of people.
		The reason that Jim is so much like people want to tear down our crosses and want to shut us down is because he's keenly aware that he's conning people.
		He knows that the accusations that come at him are legal accusations.
		They are like, you are committing a very at least unethical business practices here.
		This is crazy what you're doing.
		It has nothing to do with God.
		It has to do with you using God as a method to sell your bullshit buckets and what have you.
		So it's really utilitarian for him to be like, we are under attack because we love God so much.
		Because then that frames the argument for anybody who believes what he's saying is like these very measured, reasonable complaints that you or I would have about him.
		It's like, oh, no, they just hate God.
		And that's not when you say, I want to tear down his cross, now it becomes you are the embodiment of exactly what he is lying about existing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it doesn't matter.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, of course not.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I'm already the embodiment.
		I'm already the embodiment, regardless of whether or not I do it.
		So I might as well fucking take your goddamn cross away, you piece of shit lying.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Woo!
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Go fuck yourself.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		All of this would be fine.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I will shit on your cross.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Jim Baker, if you have a cross, I want to shit on it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, this would be fine if you just had a bit of transparency, I think.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think Jim Baker's whole operation, like his whole show would just be really funny if there was just transparency about it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Hilarious.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, because I think that the real crime is the sleight of hand stuff about what we're using the money for.
		The sleight of hand stuff about the abusive marketing tactics and shit like that.
		The rest of it is just like, look, there are worse problems in the world than someone going to a dumb church.
		And if that's all, then that's all.
		But if there was just an opening of those documents, I think he could skate on some stuff with me.
		I wouldn't care about that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What's weird is if these churches didn't exist, it would be an amazing adult film, adult swim.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Not a pornographic swim.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, not a pornographic film.
		Adult swim show.
		Like, if we didn't have so many Fucking televangelist shows on at 2 a.m. in the morning or whatever it is.
		Adult Swim would have one.
		It would be word for word the exact same thing.
		Like this is a parody of itself.
		Oh, it's insane.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's wild that this exists.
		And it's even wilder that Jim Baker is a person who did hard time for fraud because of this exact same behavior.
		In the past, he just tweaked a few things and now came back.
		And is doing the same game.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's a redemption story.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's not, though.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's redempted himself.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's like if someone did something bad, went to prison for it, got out and realized, all right, now I know the line that doesn't redeem themselves and just does the exact same thing.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's no redemption story here.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, look, I went to prison for selling.
		I went to prison for selling heroin.
		But in prison, I got my pharmacology degree, and now I sell opioids to doctors.
		It's a completely different thing.
		There's no difference whatsoever.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think that requires more effort.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's more, I went to prison because someone snitched on me for selling heroin.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		So I just murdered all the snitches.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Now I'm solo.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Or whatever.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's that sort of thing because it's not like he got clean.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, that's definitely true.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like the opioid stuff is unethical as shit, but that's still legal.
		What he's doing is still the same fraud.
		It's not like just because he didn't pretend he was creating a hotel this time that he overbooked that they got him on the first time.
		That doesn't mean that there's any less deceptiveness in this marketing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, of course.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He's playing the same fucking game.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And that's why it is Adult Swimmy in terms of like it's almost beyond the pale of what you think is like this is this is nuts.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is this is a too many like that when too many when too many Trump's favorite preacher is on.
		Oh my god, that can't be real.
		That's a lie that she tells him.
		Or no, that he tells her.
		That has to be.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's a bunch of pictures of her, and she did give the benediction at his inauguration.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but he can't.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what the fuck is going on.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, her backstory on that is that she had a televangelism show that was on air that reached Mar-a-Lago.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And so when he was there, he would watch her and he loved her.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		All right, all the ice caps melt immediately.
		Now, flood.
		This is the first time I've really believed that God was right whenever he got rid of Noah's shit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He nailed it, except for he probably just let the wrong family.
		Like, God just fucked up one time, and that was when he killed everybody and then let Noah live.
		Like, there was probably a guy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They don't even allow bees on that ship.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, well, you got to have bees.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Where would the pollination?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		God could make drones.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		God could not make drones.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He'd be fine with that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That is.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It'd be fine.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That is heretical belief.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If there's one thing I know about the Bible that says that God can't make drones.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, then me and Paula are on the same page.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Heretics, Jesus.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Heretics.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I would say that me thinking that God can make drones is not directly a heresy against the most foundational doctrines of Christianity.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So I'm on better footing than her.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Man, it's crazy.
		It's really, it's legitimately crazy that she rebukes the Nicene Creed and then is like, no, I don't.
		Yeah, you do.
		You do.
		You straight up do.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Listen, Dan, I will stop denying the Nicene Creed if you donate $8,118,1 million to whatever it is I do.
		I'll believe in anything for as much money as you can.
		I will believe in anything for money.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Also, in case you're curious, the Apostles' Creed is the Declaration that you believe in the reality of reincarnation of Jesus Christ.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And also a really good song by Jedi Mind Tricks.
		Okay.
		So now we get to, so you know how you heard this a little bit.
		Paula White likes to talk about how she does prophecy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She likes to talk.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		She does.
		And she likes to do prophecy.
		Here's a prophecy that she had that I think is ludicrous.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's 2018, people.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's 2018.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You know, we don't do prophecies.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, especially when you put yourself in a position of I do prophecy, that puts you on shaky foundations with, I think, most mainline churches.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You would hope.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's at least narcissistic.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think most churches are like, hey, look, we got a lot going on with our bullshit as it is.
		Let's not throw prophecy.
		Because prophecy is concrete, man.
		Do you know what was great about the old prophecies?
		They kind of didn't mean anything.
		And you could just throw whatever you want on them.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And spoiler alert, a lot of them were written after the fact.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		A lot of them were debating on them is a little iffy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		A little iffy.
		But you don't give out like, I'm going to prophesy this because it's not going to come true.
		And look, I'm sure Christians believe a lot of what they believe, and that's fine.
		But even Christians are like, dude, don't put our names to a prophecy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Don't put our business on the prophecy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Because it's not going to come true.
		We know it.
		We know we're not telling the real truth, but it's not the point.
		The point isn't that we're telling the truth.
		The point is that we're like feeling it, you know?
		Yeah, baby.
		Don't tell a prophecy that's like, look, okay, yeah.
		So science found out that we revolved around the sun, and yeah, so somebody prophesied that we didn't.
		But that's not the point.
		The point is that we felt like we didn't.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's one of the things that's really interesting is that in terms of this Ms. White, Paula White, her prophecy that she talks about with her childhood.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Paula White Kane, she is a Christian, so she would prefer to be referred to her both.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think if there's anything that we have heard so far, it's that she would prefer to be subservient to her husband and make sure that everybody knows that her choices are absolutely subsumed by his.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Fine, Paula Kane, then.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there we go.
		I don't even like Paula.
		Let's call her Mrs. Kane.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So, Ms. If you're an essayist, so the idea that she has of her first old-time prophecy is just this vague idea of I'm going to be listened to, and if I stop, then people will be hurt.
		Right.
		That sort of thing.
		And that's just a good origin story.
		I don't begrudge that.
		That's nice.
		But then the other prophecy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		There's no toxic adventure, but I'm fine with that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, the other prophecies that she gives are just counterfactuals of real things that did happen.
		Like, here is one that she gives about what would have happened if Trump hadn't have won, which to me is a shitty prophecy because it's like, great.
		What are we on?
		Alternate Earths?
		What are we doing?
		This isn't a multi-verse Marvel comic.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And God said to me, if I did open my mouth, then the Twin Towers would fall.
		So I did.
		Oh.
unidentified		Shit.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Fuck.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That was me.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		They don't recognize how much we were on the verge of losing what we call it religious liberties.
		But the reality is I believe.
		I believe in.
		I'm going to make a bold statement that I've never made publicly.
		But I believe that had God not divinely intervened through the church, through the church, praying, through our obedience, through an awakening, and giving us this a moment, this a window.
		And if we missed this, I believe the church in America would have been an underground church within five years.
unidentified		I do.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		Paula!
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Five years!
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Paula, that's progressing me.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		Why I couldn't give it up.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		If they only understood.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		How many believe that?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Come on.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, not many, not many.
jim bakker ▲ ● ▼		We come too far.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		How many believe that?
		Almost fucking nobody.
		That's how many people believe that.
		Everybody was like, wait, five years?
		What are you talking about?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that's a delightful counterfactual prediction that is like, had things not gone the way they did in reality, here's a consequence I imagine for it to scare you about why we need to support Trump because he is in and is avoiding the churches becoming an underground church.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like, fuck all that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And if you don't support Trump, then the majority religion that runs this entire fucking country will become an underground church in five years.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Five years.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Five years.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That would be fast.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I think that the reality is that if, you know, on a national level, conservatives, Republicans have not done traditionally all that well in the last hundred years or so, last 50 years particularly.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They've not won a ton of elections, especially ones that didn't involve George W. Bush, his dad, or Nixon.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Which is why they learned how to cheat better.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Speaking of George W. Bush.
		Yeah, so I think that what she's expressing is actually probably an accurate prophecy, but has nothing to do with the Christian church going underground.
		But like, eventually, if people keep making liberal progress, our con is not going to be allowed.
		At a certain point, people are going to get sick of this.
		The word's going to get out on us, and our livelihoods are going to be completely busted.
		At a certain point, we will have to go underground, not the church.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		If people's lives improve to the point where our fear-mongering bullshit doesn't really make sense even to them, we're fucked.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we are great fucked.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We need to make sure.
		Why else would they join the side of the Coke billionaires and the like?
		It's because if people's lives aren't shit, they're not going to go.
		Like, we get back to the now.
		I can't even remember the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right?
		Like, if you have all of those needs level, then you are not afraid of, you know, somebody from another country is coming to take my job.
		Do you know why I'm not afraid of that?
		It's because I have my needs met and I'm comfortable in what I'm doing.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And if I'm not afraid of immigrants coming to take my jobs or all of that shit, then I'm really not going to be picked up by the con men.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
unidentified		Because I don't have that fear to play on.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I don't have that imaginary hole that these people are offering to fill for me.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		So of course religions, of course, all of these things are jumping in with that because they need a base level of misery.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, they're not going to be successful.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But I also don't think that it's most religions.
		I understand that it's very easy, and the numbers are real bad in terms of especially evangelical Christians and stuff like that.
		But I also think that most of the evangelical Christians are under the sway of a really toxic version of Christianity.
		I don't think Christianity as a whole is bad.
		I think very smart Christians exist, very scholarly Christians who write essays about how Paula White is a heretic, things like that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		What we've done is we've entered a world where anti-intellectualism has metastasized to include everything.
		So you have these con men who are like rebuking the very idea of knowing things.
		You have Trump who doesn't, like, I don't want to get briefed about stuff.
		I don't give a shit.
		My impulses are perfect.
		So now you have that distrust of politics as a thing that like or even like take politics out of it because that is an inherently dirty game, but like diplomacy or international relations.
		It's like, no, fuck that.
		No one needs to study that.
		I know better because of my great genes that I have.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So you have him infesting that sort of world.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You have someone like Paula White, who probably has much more influence than Jim Baker, if we're being totally honest.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And you have her, who she doesn't have a degree from a seminary.
		She's not like, she hasn't studied the Bible in a formal environment.
		What?
		No.
		So she has fake accreditation.
		Right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		She's the doctor group of Christianity.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And she comes in with a heretical version of a misunderstanding of what Christians believe about Jesus.
		And you have just like, hey, you know what?
		She's super charismatic and fun.
		And let's fucking let this become dominant.
		And it's not just her, but there are tons of her around.
		They're tons of her within the evangelical community.
		And they're leading well-meaning people into a complete idiotic world.
		And that's what bums me out because I think a lot of people who are deep, and this is me going back to my dumb centrist roots, but like this is something that I care about a lot.
		Like I know a lot of really good Christian people.
		Like my parents are devout Christian folk.
unidentified		And I can confirm they are the people that you say they are.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They're great, and they're also very liberal.
		They're progressive as shit.
		They're very understanding of, like, the ideas of the teachings of Jesus being adaptable and metaphorical on some level.
unidentified		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You know, like, you don't have to be beholden to these dumb ideas about, like, I watched a video where they were talking about, like, where Paula White was on another show and they were talking about, like, why the prosperity gospel is the truth.
		And that's because when Adam was sent out of the Garden of Eden, it was about the sweat of his brow.
		He would work and it would mean nothing.
		He would have all this work and it would never come to the middle.
		It would never be made right.
		But Jesus had the crown of thorns on his head and they humiliated him and he bled from the brow and it was the parallel of the poverty that was thrown on Adam.
		And so there's a metaphor of economic redemption that I'm bringing to you through Jesus.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That makes the least sense of anything I have ever heard in my entire life.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's just because the idea of the brow, the word brow being used in both contexts.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, like, one of those is like farming is hard, and then the other one is like getting murdered is hard.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		But you have stuff like that where people are trying to twist the literalness of scriptures.
		And I think a lot of Christians get a really bad shake.
		And I know that I have now abandoned my desire to defend Republicans.
		No, and here's.
		I still think I hold out hope, and I believe that there are a lot of great Christians in the world.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Look, you're talking to me.
		My family is fucking nuts.
		Like, they are like all of the shit that she is saying, they would totally say.
		And if they listen to this episode, if everybody in my family listened to this episode, I swear to God, they wouldn't even hear the ad pivots.
		Like, it would just like, like, some part of their brains would just out, and they'd be like, no, what she's saying is good and true, and prayer is good and honest.
		And I believe that.
		And I'm like, no, I get it.
		You're just missing the ad pivot part.
		You realize that you're being tricked.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And they can't.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You're focusing on the fatty meat when you need to see the skeleton of what's supporting that meat on the animal.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And part of it is just like they're not bad people.
		My family is, they're wonderful, beautiful people.
		I'm not going to paint my family as something awful.
		Like, they would give you a sandwich.
		Which I don't fucking know.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No need to unpack all of that now.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Whatever your basis for like an okay person is.
unidentified		Sure.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But if like you can't go back on it to them in their way, at a certain point, it's almost like they're pot committed.
		They're playing poker and they're like, well, we've already put all of our chips in.
		Why would we stop now?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's money protecting bad money already spent.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I can't quit this job I hate because I've worked here 10 years.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And also, at the same time, for so many of these people, even if my parents, even if my mom and dad, who have been with this church for like 20 years, even if they know it's bullshit, if they leave it, now they don't have any friends, man.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's true.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's tough.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Now what are they going to do?
		What are they going to go to a card club?
		Like, they've got nothing.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's a hundred possibilities, but it is tough.
unidentified		It's scary.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you just let all of that shit go.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, there's an ad pivot, but I'm not going to give them money, so it's really not about me.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Rape.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a prosperity gospel, but I don't really worry about the prosperity parts.
		I'm just doing that for the God.
		Of course, I get it.
		It's just ruining it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and unfortunately, people like Apollo or people like Jim have much deeper things that they want.
		They have issues that they care about that are not so much about being religiously based or anything like that.
		The reason that Jim almost jizzes on himself with that pen, signed the stripping of the Johnson Amendment.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It was a great pen, though.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Is because what he cares about is using the church that he has in a political way because that will allow him to open up so many more vistas of fundraising.
		There's so many more things that he'd be able to do in a tax-free environment if he's able to not have the IRS breathing down his neck about what you can and can't say.
		Like, those sorts of things would be so.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I just want to thank God for making the crimes that I committed before legal now by electing Donald Trump.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's so many benefits that he stands to gain from it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's fucking ludicrous to think that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		At one of my old jobs, I had something happened or whatever, and the corporate head sent me a pen.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Fuck pens.
unidentified		Sure.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Fuck pens.
		What are you doing?
		It's a fucking pen.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Nah, I disagree.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Come on, man.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I disagree.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What are you fucking doing?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		On my last day of work at my old office, this guy named Trez came in.
		This guy ran a couple coffee shops, and he was an awesome dude.
		He's one of the only people I actually liked interacting with.
		I worked in a role where I had to collect overdue amounts from people who bought our coffee and shit.
		And he'd always be pretty behind.
		That's because he was super busy.
		He'd always come into the office about once a month or so with a checkbook and be like, here, I'm going to get even.
		And he'd come in.
		He was super awesome.
		He's just a really, really fucking nice guy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And cool and fun.
		I liked him.
		Every time he came in, very exciting to see Trez.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's a nice guy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		He's the Paula White.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		No.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, because he wasn't a shithead.
		But he came in on the last day that I, or around my last day of work.
		I think it was my second last day.
		And he's like, oh, I want to give you this.
		And he gave me a pen from his coffee shop.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I still have it.
		I thought it was really sweet.
		Very nice thing.
		It has a thing on the end of it so you can use it as a stylus.
		It's a good pen.
		It's a cute thing.
		But it also, just the sentimentality of it meant a lot.
		Whereas if Paulo was saying, like, Donald Trump signed a bill with this, and I know it doesn't mean anything, but it's a sentimental artifact of my time or whatever, I'd respect that more than Jim Baker being like, I've waited my whole life for this pen.
		That's very different, you know?
		Anyway, enough pen talk.
		Now let's get to historical revisionism.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		So you have to.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Pens were invented by Americans.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		What's the purpose of America?
		What was the purpose?
		Not for us to slaughter babies.
		Not for us.
		Oh, people will get upset if I start going on that.
		I mean, I can continue to go.
		The purpose was when our forefathers came over that we would not have a state religion.
		They took their crosses when they landed at Plymouth and when they walked out and they put their white crosses down and they dedicated this land and said it will be a lighthouse for God to submit the world.
unidentified		All of the people.
unidentified		The gospel will be dedicated this land with the blood of everyone who is here for this particular nation.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		As a sacrament.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Thank God.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But even taking that aside, I don't think that the original intent was that this will be a Christian way station on the way to other places.
		I don't know.
		I think that what we have there, more importantly, whether or not that's blatant historical revisionism or not, what you have there is absolutely a declaration that what we want is a goddamn theocracy.
unidentified		Yep.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We want this to be, and we believe that it was supposed to be, and it's not because of these demon folk who are you and I.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, there's a certain part of me that respects it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Because here's what you're doing.
unidentified		Me?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
		I mean, if you're them, you're taking everything that humanity has ever done and are going like, ooh, no, that doesn't sound great.
		And that really doesn't support my argument.
		So I'm going to make my own up.
		And my own human history supports what I want to do.
		So let's just make that the real human history.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Like, that makes perfect sense, right?
unidentified		Yeah.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Like, if I just convince enough people that reality isn't reality, then they'll do what I tell them to do.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And she's good at it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Like, I mean, I've had this conversation.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I feel like I keep having this conversation more and more recently than I think I ever have before, which is just like what we've always talked about, which is like a conversation doesn't happen until there's an agreement of terms, an agreement of definitions.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's a classic idea.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		What is when you say table, are we talking about table?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And we are no longer doing that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Conversation can't happen without.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		There is no conversation to be had with somebody who believes that the founding fathers wanted a Christian theocracy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		do you say well here's a good uh good or or or you believe that god wanted the founding fathers to have a god with the you know like what do you say to that well Well, here's a good concrete example of that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like, if you look at the reality of Trump going to North Korea and talking with that hand deal he made with a non-binding statement that they were.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Which has turned out to be one of the most hilarious things that they are rubbing their asses in our faces, and I think it's hilarious.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But we get back to this idea of the beginning of a conversation as the definition of terms.
		And you have denuclearization as being a term that has been agreed on in this statement that they made.
		Right.
		But to us or to Trump, denuclearization is a one-sided thing where he gives up all of his nukes and submits.
		Whereas for him, the term denuclearization is a universal like a more unilateral thing where South Korea gives up their weapons, the entire peninsula becomes de-weaponized, the United States scales back involvement and stuff like that.
		So you can come to an agreement that says we believe in denuclearization.
		But if one side thinks it means X and the other thinks Y, then you don't have anything.
		This agreement doesn't mean anything.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's not real.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And that is the conversation.
		That's the impossibility of the conversation we keep having.
		It's the reason why bad faith actors like Alex Jones, all of his ilk, all of the commentators on the right, why they are such a big problem is that we don't have a consensus about what we mean, and they are doing that intentionally.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And that is...
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because they can't have the conversation on a level playing field.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Of course not.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't make any sense.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because when you nail things down, people can't wiggle.
		You know what I mean?
		You can't get around it.
		You can't be like, well, what do you believe in?
		And then make a hard declaration of what you believe in.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Well, and this has happened to everybody.
		Absolutely.
		And it's something that we all, I think, is one of the big things as far as growing is like getting over this is when you are talking to somebody, when you're having an argument, and they start to pin you down, you start to feel it, though.
		Like, there's a certain point where you start to feel like, oh, shit, I might be wrong.
		And instead of for I, like, this is humanity, like 95% of us, instead of saying, like, oh, no, okay, tell me more about that.
		You're like, well, that's not what I was saying.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And that's the unit and dismount fast.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		No, I wasn't saying that.
		And then that allows you to continue believing the same shit that you, for a brief instant, you had that chance.
		You had that moment of like, maybe I could be wrong here.
		And I could say I'm wrong.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And then I could change.
		My two things that I do in that situation is, well, I mean, the first thing is universal, and that is I assess.
		And the second thing is either I reject your premise.
		This conversation's stupid.
unidentified		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		If that's the case, or I laugh and like, oh, man, I was off.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Because who cares?
unidentified		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Who cares?
		If you're wrong about something, then you're wrong about something.
		It's not the worst thing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think that's one of the most fun things that I have experienced with this, with our whole podcast, is always just like, eventually I'm either like, no, yeah, yeah, you're right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		All of the stuff I said was dumb because it was based on information that I didn't really have, and you have that information.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But I also still don't think you're dumb.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like your reasoning is still there.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's not that, no, no, that's what I'm saying.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Like, that's part of the indictment of you.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's part of growth, though.
		That's part of the thing that makes me excited to do this pod.
		Like, when we talk about it's boring for Alex to continue to say all this stuff, for me, it's really exciting because I like not being wrong.
		And when I'm wrong, that's just a super exciting opportunity for me not to be wrong later.
		You know?
		Like, it's great.
		I like learning shit.
		And so often, like with these people, you could tell them, and you could rhetorically have an argument where they're like, but maybe if I, and you just keep pinning them down, just like, hey, stay in the pocket.
		This is what we're talking about.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No way.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		This is what we're talking about.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Not a chance.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You are staying right here with me.
		This is what we're saying.
		Until you and I agree that this is what we're talking about, we are not talking.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But this is why philosophers don't go on info wars.
		This is why people who are actually good at conversation in that sense don't go on these shows.
		It's because.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		See, but I think that's also one of the problems.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not talking about that.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Why won't these philosophers do?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Why won't they debate?
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I'm not talking about it in that regard.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I may subject themselves to this level of bullshit.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, I made a leap that I didn't let you in on.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, I know.
		So apologies.
		I understood the implied leap that you were making, but at the same time, just on its face, that was stupid.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, no, it's dumb.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, of course not.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Why won't the like it is a problem that smarter people don't go on these shows?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, that's not what I'm talking about.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, I understand, but that was a piece of what you were saying.
		And yes, it is a problem that, like, you know, this will never get better if these worlds, like, what it is, is this is an infected tooth.
		Jim Baker.
		Alex Jones is another infected tooth.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And it's not going to get better until you put some medication in there.
		You do, like, a root canal.
		And that root canal is probably smart people showing up and embarrassing them on their own show or something like that.
		But you're like.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But I think that's where one of the big disconnects happens.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And also, as we've seen, like Dr. Dean Adell has gone on that volcanologist.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		So people go on and they do a root canal, and then the behavior of eating candy all night happens again, and then you have another.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'm trying to say.
		That's what I'm trying to say: is that it is not that smart people don't say this stuff to them.
		It is that the way that you put it is what triggered it for me.
		When you said, well, it's that people who are good at this kind of thing don't go on there.
		And that's the way people view it too often.
		You're not right.
		You're just better at arguing than me.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, Steve Pieczenik's really good at arguing.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That's brilliant.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But that's the way that people get out of being in that conversation with you.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I've had this happen to me plenty of times.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Tons of people who are good at arguing go on Alex Jones' show.
unidentified		Right.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Tons of them.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But they're just refolding to the same ideas as Alex, so they never have an argument.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		But if their argument is losing, they will say it is not because their argument is bad or it is because their argument doesn't make any sense.
		They'll say it's because you're just better at arguing than me.
		It's a question of who is dominating this argument, not whether or not your ideas make any sense.
		And that's the way that so many people view it.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that even goes back to Alex talking about when he was on that British show.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		He's like, I dominated that interview.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's why so many, that's the heart of so many fears about sending their kids to college with these evangelical communities.
		It's like, no, no, no.
		It's not that they're, you're going to think that they have knowledge that you don't know.
		But what it really is, is they're just tricking you with better arguments because we don't teach you how to argue.
		You don't need to know how to argue.
		God says don't argue.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They're sneaky, high-falutin city learning.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And that's the anti-intellectualism.
		Yeah.
		Is the idea that it is about a quality of argument being real as opposed to a fact.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I think some of that's certainly true.
		But at the end of the day, Jordan, I really don't think it matters because all of these things that we're particularly concerned about, these issues that we've brought up here, certainly the anti-intellectualism, the nature of argumentation, the agreeing on terms, these sorts of things that are really important in having a conversation.
		It doesn't matter with these people because there's one thing that this is about.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		So you can see exactly what he is calling you, you right now, to get up on the phone and sell that $45 seed, not just to get the book, not just to get the prophetic series, but so that this message can keep going forth.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		So that you can see what he is calling them.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Don't bother them that it's really close to 40 pieces of silver.
		Does it even bother?
		Do they even, for a single fucking second, think about that?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Nope, doesn't matter.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And we have one more clip where Paula goes a little bit too hard.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		But I've had the same things, the death threats, and spiritually and naturally, they're spiritual assassins.
		And naturally, they said there are things after your life.
		But you know what I did?
		John and I grabbed each other the other night.
		We put our feet in oil.
		We started taking communion.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		All right, I like this.
paula white-cain ▲ ● ▼		We took a prophetic instruction and we obeyed because God told us to sow an amount.
		We took the amount and God told us to sow it into a certain thing because He said it would be for the preservation of our life and for the preservation of our children.
		We obeyed God and somebody needs to obey God right now because you need to give a lot more than $45.
		You need to give thousands of dollars in obedience for the word of the Lord that is coming because it's going to preserve you and your family.
		And when we did this and we preserved, here's how I prayed.
unidentified		I didn't pray, oh God, will you just keep 45 bucks into a couch?
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I think that's what she just described.
unidentified		She just described you're trying to make the metaphor literal.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Here's what she just described.
		She just described her and her husband, who controls all of her finances and whose keyboard refuses to allow her to speak for herself.
		Of course, she is subservient to him in every possible way.
		They were told by God to sow some money into a place for the protection of their children.
		I'm going to go with misspelling.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You're misspelling the word.
		You're thinking it's S-E-W.
		It's S-O-W.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to go with couch.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Sowing seeds.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		This is just the basis.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		They sow those seeds into a couch.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, this is the basis of the prosperity gospel stuff.
		We've talked about this over and over again.
		But when I hear her say that, what I hear is I'm going to lie and say that we put our feet in oil and then had communion.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That was they took a bath together and drank wine.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Which I love.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's great.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I hope your relationship is wonderful.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Sexy.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But the idea of her sowing this seed or whatever, what she's talking about is I made an investment.
		And now I'm trying to imply to all of you that you need to do the same thing, but with me.
		You need to make an investment in me.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, of course.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's the same fucking thing.
unidentified		I still kind of believe they put it into a couch or something.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I do bet they have a safe or something like that in their house.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		These folks never exist without a grain of paranoia somewhere.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's definitely there.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Hard cash on hand.
unidentified		No, she's not.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Not trusting a bank.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		As much as that was a metaphor, that was also a very real story about a very real discussion that they had.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		About oil on their feet.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Something.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, like, for real, that does sound like her dramatizing a like we took a footbath.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		No, it's dramatizing a story of an investment decision.
		Yeah.
		It's not like God told us to give away a recognizable amount of our fortune.
		Like, it's not that.
		I don't believe that for a hot second.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Of course not.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But she wants to imply that it is in order to make it seem like you have to give more.
		So anyway, the reason that I end with this is that, like, again, for all of our intents and our pretenses of trying to have a real conversation about what these people are up to, it always boils down to this stuff.
		It always boils down to $45.
		Over and over again, saying, give me $45, and after that, being like, that's not enough.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		That's not enough.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Thousands of dollars.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You need to give 10% of everything.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		And the reason is because I have this magic pen and I'm friends with our God King who is the president.
		It's disgusting.
		And this sort of behavior is going to lead down the road to a gross, gross theocracy.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Really feel like America was founded on like a like oh man, there was something about Kings.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I remember when America was like started, they were like they had like opinions about kings.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you, Kings is one of my favorite Steely Dan songs off of Can't Buy a Thrill.
		It's a great album, one of the deep cuts.
		You know, everyone knows Reeling in the Years, shit like that.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Which is the lamest one on that on that album.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		They had a song called Kings that was a fucking banger.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Kings.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Get a lot.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		That was Kid Charlemagne.
		Never mind.
		That's a good old song.
unidentified		But that was from a later album.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		But the Kings was, we've seen the last of Good King Richard.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Raise up your glass for good King John.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I was thinking about the Ice Cube Mark Wahlberg.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		George Clooney classic Three Kings.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, Steely Dan's version of Kings was really all about the fall of Richard Nixon and the rise of JFK.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		So was the movie Three Kings.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Well, absolutely.
unidentified		I gotta go.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I want to talk more about Steely Dan.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I know.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		It's time to wrap this up.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Man, they had a nice song called Midnight Cruiser off that album.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I reckon.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Stop turning into a middle-aged man in front of me.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I like that now.
		My new thing is going to be the next day.
		At the end of every episode, talking about music I like.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		I feel like I'm.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Scatman John last time.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Now I feel like I'm a 20-year-old girl cornered by a man talking about Steely Dan, which is not an uncommon feeling.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever listened to.
		I already said Midnight Cruiser.
		I can't think of a third song.
		Too much.
		Anyway, these people are a disgrace.
		And whoo-hoo, good times.
		Anyway, if you can't quite get it, the parallels are very clear in terms of where the con work is more important than the actual content being portrayed.
		And that's why these sorts of things are very relevant to our show, even if they aren't Alex Jones.
		But if you like our show and want to hear more of us talking ad nauseum about Alex Jones, you can go and find that stuff over at KnowledgeFight.com.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, you can follow us on Twitter at that Knowledge Underscore Fight.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We're on Facebook.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		We are on Facebook.
		You can go to iTunes.
		You can like.
		You can support the show.
		You can leave a review.
		You can do a whole thing.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		Any of that shit.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		You can do it.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		You can put us on message boards.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Whatever there are messages.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		We also have a Facebook group called Go Home and Tell Your Mother You're Brilliant.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, we do.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's a lot of fun.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		And, Dan, I believe it is.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		It's your turn.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		No, last turn.
		Last time there was a cornucopia, and now you have narrowed it down to a few key players.
		One of whom plays the keyboard.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm certain of who I need to give the honors at the end of this episode.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Televangelist.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of musicians.
jordan holmes ▲ ● ▼		Televangelist married a member of Journey.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of musicians in the world.
		A lot of them are very credible musicians, and some of them have technical talent, but also are pieces of shit for reasons that I don't know.
		And actually, I'm probably speaking out of turn.
		I have no idea what their life is like, but from the age of 19 or so, I decided this guy sucks.
		And hey, he didn't come up on this episode, but he involved Neil Schoen from Journey.
		Neil Schoen, go fuck yourself.
		Andy and Kansas, you're on the air.
unidentified		Thanks for holding.
unidentified		Hello, Alex.
dan friesen ▲ ● ▼		I'm a first-time caller.
unidentified		I'm a huge fan.
unidentified		I love your work.

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