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March 14, 2024 - The Joe Rogan Experience
03:01:28
Joe Rogan Experience #2119 - James Lindsay
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james lindsay
01:50:45
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joe rogan
01:00:01
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donald j trump
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jamie vernon
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00:07
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Speaker Time Text
james lindsay
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
unidentified
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Showing my day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day!
joe rogan
How are you, sir?
james lindsay
I'm good, Joe.
joe rogan
This is your American masculinity shirt.
We both, we didn't even coordinate, we're both wearing American flags.
james lindsay
Yeah, well, I mean, it's that time, right?
It's time to start saying, you know what, I'm an American, and that's cool.
joe rogan
Before you say that, I mean...
If you don't, we're on the way to saying I'm Chinese.
james lindsay
Yeah.
Well, how's your Mandarin?
joe rogan
Yeah.
Might be a good time to learn it as they're all sneaking in across the border.
That's one of the more disturbing things.
When I talked to Brett Weinstein, he was talking about how many Chinese military-aged men are sneaking across the border.
And you want to...
Do you want to look at it the best way possible?
You say, well, it's probably a bunch of people that are looking for work, and it's probably a bunch of people that are, you know, there's not as many Chinese women, and they're looking for a girlfriend or something, and why do they have military haircuts?
Well, they're probably, you know, just like a young man thing.
unidentified
Yeah.
james lindsay
I mean, I've heard more specifically, I can't vet it, so I can't prove it.
So like there's the grain of salt up front.
But I have heard that even Chinese special forces, if I was a special forces of a hostile country, I'd try to sneak across and do infiltration.
So I've heard that there might be even hundreds or thousands of those, not hundreds of thousands, hundreds or thousands.
But I don't know if that's true.
joe rogan
Well, I wouldn't.
unidentified
It's not even really sneaking in anymore, is it?
james lindsay
No, you just kind of walk across.
And I mean, there's even memes that are like, I'm going to go to Honduras and give up my American citizenship and come back across.
So everything will be paid for for me.
You know, it's like, no, it's not sneaking across.
It's, as they are saying, full-scale invasion.
joe rogan
Well, it's just weird.
It's weird that we've just kind of gone, well, well...
We've always...
I mean, there was always customs.
There's always...
You land.
They check out your stuff.
They look at your paperwork.
They go through your passport.
They ask you questions.
Why are you in this country?
You know?
And it's always been that way.
Like, I was watching this video with...
You know who Deadmau5 is?
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
Deadmau5 is the musician.
The DJ. He was trying to come into the country to visit his friend.
And they said, no, you're coming into work.
He's like, no, no, I'm coming because he's famous.
He works.
He's like, no, I get paperwork.
And they kicked him out of the country for like seven years.
james lindsay
Whoa.
joe rogan
He should have just walked through.
james lindsay
Yeah, right.
He should have been, no, I'm just here to do whatever I want.
joe rogan
But what a bizarre thing.
If you're undocumented, if you are poor, and if you're going to do cheap labor, walk right in.
But if you're a highly skilled, world-famous DJ, and you want to go visit a friend, we're concerned that you might actually be working there.
james lindsay
Yeah, or like a super pro tennis player who's going to go play in the US Open, but no, maybe not, right?
joe rogan
Well, that was the vax.
james lindsay
That was the vax.
joe rogan
By the way, Neil Young came back to Spotify.
Congratulations, Neil.
james lindsay
Yeah, well, that's good news.
joe rogan
And his excuse was, he said that because all of the platforms are now allowing my disinformation, so that his just go back on Spotify too.
james lindsay
Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
Great to know you've got some ethics.
james lindsay
Yeah, well, everybody's doing it these days, disinformation.
But yeah, I mean, there's a strategy.
The reason the border is the way it is, well, there's a strategy.
I don't know who's playing the strategy for sure, but The Cloward-Piven strategy, I'm sure you've heard of that.
Somebody's got to have talked to you about the Cloward-Piven.
joe rogan
Can you explain it?
james lindsay
Yeah, it's pretty simple.
The idea is that you take advantage of a system in the way that it's set up so that you overwhelm it.
In particular, in this case, you're going to overwhelm social services.
You're going to overwhelm border enforcement.
You're going to overwhelm whatever they're doing in the cities.
It's like tens of thousands of dollars per taxpayer or whatever per year going to Dealing what they're calling the migrant crisis.
So you try to overwhelm the system in order to basically collapse it so that you can create a crisis and the crisis creates the excuse to bring in new policies.
Oh, well, maybe what we need is, what do they call it, e-verify or something?
So we need a digital system where we can track who everybody is, but then they get their digital system and you're off to the races.
But yeah, this is an old strategy, well-documented strategy.
joe rogan
Who do you think is implementing this strategy and what are the conversations, do you think?
james lindsay
Well, it's not possible to deny that the Biden administration is implementing it because, look, they tried to fight Texas on securing its own border to protect its own citizens.
That blew up, what was it, end of January?
Is that when it all blew up?
joe rogan
Very recently, yeah.
james lindsay
Yeah, it was pretty recent.
And so certainly they are.
We know historically that the Open Society Foundation or the Soros Foundation Which is Open Society, has been funding that and has been helping out.
We know that the UN is involved now.
Like, these aren't mysteries.
The UN is coming and doing, you know, aid and coaching them.
And somebody's organizing not just – it's like it's not just a bunch of people from South America and China or wherever else or Mexicans wandering up to the border and, like, just, hey, I'm here.
There's, like, routes.
There are – it's caravans.
There's help.
unidentified
Right.
james lindsay
It's coordinated with a lot of money behind it.
And we know that those organizations, the United Nations particularly, is helping this.
So big players.
joe rogan
So what do you think the strategy is?
The strategy is to implement some sort of a worldwide verification system and the way to get these freedom-loving shitheads in America on board is to turn America into a crime-ridden place of Immigrants coming from very hostile places where their life has been very hard and they've been in prison or whatever and they're escaping that and they're coming to America and then They're off to the races.
james lindsay
Yeah, well, I mean, that's a plausible motive, right?
Let's overwhelm this system because these freedom-loving shitheads here in America, which I think I am for sure.
joe rogan
Look at your shirt.
james lindsay
Look at me, yeah.
But no, I really am.
I'm still at the end of the day.
I just kind of want to be left alone to live my life.
You do your thing.
I'll do my thing.
If you understand, there are two lines.
Let's be real clear.
Before I say, do whatever you want, as long as you don't hurt anybody, it's not clear enough.
There are two lines.
Do you understand the difference between public and private, and do you understand the difference between adult and child?
If you understand those two lines, and you're on the right side of those, I don't care what you do in private, as long as it's with adults.
I don't care what you do.
Leave me alone.
I'll leave you alone.
You're cool.
I'm cool.
Like, let's not interfere with one another.
joe rogan
That's what real freedom is.
james lindsay
But we don't want a system, you know, tying us, like the Chinese social credit system's real, right?
This isn't some conspiracy out in the world.
Whether or not it's coming to the United States is a question, whether Americans would want it is a question, but it's in China.
It's real in China.
It's been there for a decade.
I've been to China.
I've experienced, you know, life there.
And the fact of the matter is that This would – the worldwide verification system would set something like that up.
You can also overwhelm the US system so that all of a sudden it has to start taking some kind of an emergency measure to deal with whatever problems.
We can talk about the crisis here in the United States.
But holy crap, look at what's going on in the UK. I was over there right after – right at the end of October.
So on October 7th, we all know what happened in Israel.
And then all these huge protests broke out like pro-Palestine.
So I had some places to go.
I don't really give a shit about my surroundings all that much.
I'm going to do what I want to do as long as I'm not like...
So I'm walking against the grain up this, whatever they said, like 150,000 or something like that people waving the Palestinian flag walking down the street the other way on their march in London because I had to get where I was going.
London's in trouble, right?
Like the UK is in trouble.
When we start talking about this overwhelming the system, we're looking at these kind of much more generous social democracies.
Sweden, Germany's hosed.
I mean, their economy's possibly in free fall, the UK.
And at that point, what does the solution look like, right?
How could they fix that problem now?
Belgium's a big one.
I was riding with this guy.
I spoke at the EU Parliament this time last year.
So I'm riding with this dude and it turns out he's like the European James Bond.
He's like driving me from the airport and he's like, oh, yeah, you know, we've got to deal with this problem.
I do all the security stuff or whatever.
And he's talking to me about how you can get arrested if one of them starts a fight with you and you do anything about it.
It's racism and you'll end up hauled before a tribunal.
That's happened to him.
And it's like, we've got to start figuring out a way to get them out.
But it's like, how do you get them out?
And I don't mean everybody.
I mean the people who are causing criminal problems, the people who aren't trying to follow Belgian law or UK law or whatever else.
And they're going on TV saying this.
Like, you know, there's that imam or whatever the other day that famously went on and was like, in London, it was like, you know, we're going to take this country.
Like, we're not going to follow your rules.
We're not going to follow your law.
I don't remember what he said, so that's not exactly right.
A lot of information passes between these ears these days, but the fact of the matter is the question becomes when you have a crisis at that scale, what are your options for fixing it?
And I think that that's part of the Cloward Piven strategy is how do you end up fixing a problem that's at that scale?
I think they're doing the same thing.
To be honest with you, it sounds all crazy conspiratorial, but I think this is why I've been pedal to the metal with the transition stuff, the trans stuff.
If you end up with a million kids, You've got a million kids like that really are on the medical system.
What do you do with them?
What do you do with a million kids?
And then their parents and their aunts and uncles, everybody, the whole system has to start bending around a reality that was kind of manufactured and you can get some major changes.
joe rogan
But it seems like this, if you want to go full tinfoil hat, there has to be a plan So that means there has to be conversations.
There has to be a bunch of people that agree to this.
Like, who are those people?
And how do those conversations take place?
james lindsay
Well, I mean, we do.
Who are the people?
Well, again, I just point back, the Biden administration has to have had conversations.
They petitioned the Supreme Court to stop Texas from enforcing its border.
I would love to know what those conversations look like.
Whoever is funding it at some point had to sit down at a table, probably not exactly like this.
It might not have as much cool stuff on it, but they sat down and they signed some contracts and said this is where the money is going to go.
joe rogan
Do you think it could be that it's the federal government putting power over state governments to make sure that state governments don't say, we can do what we want?
james lindsay
Well, I mean that's the fight between Texas and the federal government.
So for sure that's part of it.
But I think there's the United Nations that's kicking this too, that's pushing this.
I mean so a lot of people don't understand – and I'm skipping around.
The United Nations sees itself as a kind of global entity, 193 member states, blah, blah, blah.
17 Sustainable Development Goals to Transform Our World, all that.
But I'm going to skip over and talk about like Soros for a second because we know that the Open Society Foundation has pushed a lot of this kind of stuff too.
And it's a lot of people don't understand Soros or what is the Open Society that he's talking about.
Well, that's based off of – a lot of people don't know.
Soros' mentor was the famous Karl Popper and Karl Popper wrote a book in 1945 called Open Society and Its Enemies.
And so the open society is what we've been taking for granted basically in the post-World War II era and it's what we want.
That's where – it's a free society.
It's a high-trust society.
It's a – people can do what they want.
They don't have to worry about whether they're going to get carjacked all the time or whatever else.
And Soros is like, well, you could have that in the nation or you could have that where there's kind of one open society in the globe.
So a lot of people start thinking that he's working with China, but he doesn't like China because China doesn't have an open society.
That's not what he wants.
But the idea that there's this line that comes across the south of Texas and New Mexico and Arizona and California, where arbitrarily, so to speak, The United States says this is our land and Mexicans have to stay out.
He would be against that.
That should be like an open Pan-American kind of mega-continent kind of in his mind with one society.
So what do you have to do?
Well, you have to dissolve a border.
And how can you dissolve a border?
Well, make so many people be able to cross that border through changes legally and through flooding the system so that The border doesn't really mean anything anymore because borders are simple, right?
What is a border?
It's a line we draw on a map and we say laws on this side of this border mean this and laws on the other side of this border are different, right?
The US has law.
Mexico has law.
And this line is where we have US law versus Mexican law on either – one step across and now you're in another set of laws.
That's what they mean.
That's what borders are as a political entity.
But if you can water that down so it's like, well – There's so many people coming across, like, is there really a border?
That's the idea, because Soros' idea is a global open society.
Everything in the whole globe, maybe, I don't know if it's that extreme, but maybe you don't need passports.
It's like the EU, but for the whole world.
joe rogan
Wouldn't a better option be America, but for the whole world?
james lindsay
I would say so, because you can look at Europe and see that the EU's not doing really well.
joe rogan
Well, we're not sneaking into Mexico.
james lindsay
No.
joe rogan
In fact, you can just drive into Mexico.
Mariana Van Zeller, who does that fantastic show, Trafficked.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
You ever watch that show?
james lindsay
No.
joe rogan
That lady is a gangster.
She goes to the craziest places.
She goes to Columbia and watches them make cocaine and then goes through the jungle with them when they have it on their backs.
So she did one in Los Angeles where it turns out that cops, dirty cops in LA, Are confiscating weapons and then selling them to the cartel.
And they just drive into Mexico with them, because nobody checks you when you go into Mexico.
So these guys have trunkfuls of AKs, and they're just driving into Mexico, and she goes with them.
james lindsay
Holy crap.
joe rogan
The whole episode is documenting this.
And that's...
See, we're not sneaking into there.
You could just go right into there.
They're sneaking into here.
With the best-case scenario, is it even possible to have this everywhere?
Well, that's what we wanted, right?
And that was the whole idea of spreading democracy.
But it doesn't totally seem like it worked.
james lindsay
Yeah, no, it doesn't seem like it worked.
And there are some big reasons for that.
joe rogan
Well, power is the big reason.
james lindsay
Power is a big one.
And the fact is when you start getting divorced too far away from Mexican issues being ruled over in, say, Ottawa is a little bit difficult, right?
joe rogan
Right.
james lindsay
So there's that kind of stuff.
But there's also a huge geopolitical – I hate misusing that word.
I learned what the word geopolitical really means.
joe rogan
What does it really mean?
james lindsay
It means politics of earth things like waterways, oceans, dams.
Oh, interesting.
joe rogan
I've always used it wrong too.
james lindsay
I go totally autistic every time I say the word now and I'm like, damn it, I know it means something different because we all use it wrong, but I'm going to use it wrong anyway.
There's a geopolitical move from China right now called the Belt and Road Initiative.
And the Belt and Road Initiative, that's tied to the BRICS. The idea is that the entire global south with China as its head is going to become the new epicenter, the superpower of the world.
And it's going to be not just trade.
I mean, China doesn't exactly trade on fair terms.
They're going to go and basically exploit places.
We'll build you a nice airport.
We'll build you a nice port.
We'll build you some highways.
By the way, they all go straight to the mine and we're taking all of your lithium when we come in.
That's your deal.
And now you're economically dependent on us.
Pretty standard game that they're playing.
And that Belt and Road Initiative actually is a competing interest to spreading democracy around the world.
So I know Vivek Ramaswamy really hit this out of the park where he said, we went over to China and said, let's spread democracy to China.
So in a sense, we bit off way more than we could chew if you want to think of it that way.
Let's spread democracy to China.
And China was like, ha, ha, ha.
Yeah, let's see.
And they flipped the table on us.
And made it so that if you want to get in the Chinese market, so first they become the manufacturing base of the world, but then if you want to play in the Chinese market, what do you have to do?
Well, the CCP puts up a firewall, and if you don't play by the Chinese rules, you don't get into China.
So now Nike and all these big corporations and all these other – NBA.
I named Nike because it just keeps coming to mind.
But there's a huge consumer market over there that's buying up stuff like crazy.
That's one of the things I witnessed in China.
Everybody is starting to have money.
So they're buying up brand name stuff everywhere that they can all the time to show that they have some money now.
And huge market.
So they want into the market.
The market is gigantic.
It's a manufacturing base.
So it's – relationships are built.
But if you want to play, you play by Chinese rules.
So spreading democracy partly didn't work because we have to play by China's rules.
And that's – the Belt and Road Initiative is meant to create a global south network.
So we're the global north.
That's South America, parts of Africa, a lot of like Indonesia, India, and then China.
Of course, BRICS just throws Russia into that mix.
But otherwise, that's who you're talking about.
And China is setting itself up to be the kind of global superpower or hegemon of that entire project.
And we're talking about the flow of trillions of dollars of – Goods and oil and energy and whatever every year.
So that's a huge thing to play with.
And it turns out I don't think – if we take Vivek's line, we got outfoxed in the deal.
So spreading democracy – there are lots of these cultural reasons.
Oh, they're not ready for democracy.
I don't know.
Maybe some places, maybe not some places.
But there are other pressures too that we've been asleep to.
We have not been paying attention as a country.
Maybe some of our like State Department people have been.
To China for the way that we should have been.
We should have been in the 80s and 90s like, oh no, China.
But we were like, oh yeah, China.
Okay, cool.
Make all of our cheap stuff for us.
joe rogan
Well, they've done an amazing thing in combining communism with capitalism.
james lindsay
That's right.
joe rogan
If you just have North Korea, you never develop a real superpower.
james lindsay
Thank you.
Thank you, Joe.
I beat this drum and I get called crazy all the time because what I'm trying to tell people is that communism is what's happening to this country.
OK, but it doesn't look like communism because it's like, how is Nike communist?
joe rogan
Right.
james lindsay
And I'm picking on Nike.
How's Boeing?
Let's pick on Boeing instead.
How's Boeing communist?
You know, all these...
How's Disney communist, right?
They're huge megacorporations.
What did Google just lose over its stupid AI? $90 billion or something?
It's something insane.
Like, I didn't even know they had that much money to lose.
And it's like, holy crap, you know, in stockholder value or whatever, or shareholder value.
joe rogan
I think it was only $9 billion.
james lindsay
Was it?
I thought that was Bud Light.
That was $9 billion.
joe rogan
No, no.
Bud Light was $27 billion.
james lindsay
But look, We're haggling over 11, 12-figure...
joe rogan
I know, right?
james lindsay
Yeah.
And so it's like at least 10-figure numbers of money.
Elon kind of rolls in that department, but nobody else does.
So anyways...
What – where was I going with this?
Because this is huge.
Oh, the communists – how in the world are these huge things communist, right?
So communism didn't work, right?
Soviet Union sucked.
North Korea sucked.
Cuba sucks.
Like I'm sure it's like geographically beautiful, but we know those places are dysfunctional as hell.
We can go to the Eastern Bloc.
They're still devastated in a lot of ways.
They're still not all the way together.
Like communism didn't work.
But if we think of like what Marx did – Leading up to, say, 1917 when Lenin kind of took over as communism 1.0, that never really even got off the ground.
Then Lenin got it off the ground and you get the Soviet model, which is – Soviet just means committee by the way if you didn't know that.
It's like a ruling council or committee.
So the Soviet model takes over with what they called Marxism-Leninism and that worked kind of.
It worked – they still had it in China until Mao died.
They had it in Soviet Union until, what, 89, 90, 91, something like that when it fell.
But what happened was when Mao died, like the Soviet Union wasn't doing great.
It was starting to fall apart.
A new model got picked up and nobody's – we talk about Mao Zedong sometimes and I would love to talk to you all day about Mao.
That's my new research project.
But we don't talk about his successor.
His successor was Deng Xiaoping and this is where I actually disagree with Vivek about what I was just saying.
Deng Xiaoping had a saying that was, I don't care if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice.
And what he was talking about is I don't care if we use markets or we use a Soviet-style central committee to organize our society as long as China's economy comes back.
That's what he really meant.
And so Deng didn't come up with this new model to open the markets on his own.
We didn't go to China necessarily just to spread democracy.
We went to build China.
And who's we?
Well, let's name the names.
Who was in the meeting?
And there's a movie about – some of these meetings were in China and there's not a movie.
But there's a movie called Mr. Deng Goes to Washington that took place in Washington, D.C.
So you can go watch the movie.
I'm not making this up.
Deng Xiaoping was the leader of China.
He's already networking with Klaus Schwab from the World Economic Forum in his spacesuit.
But he meets with – and the list of people were Henry Kissinger, Jibinu Brzezinski, allegedly T.H. Chan, David Rockefeller, and the sitting new emperor or whatever, CCP chairman of China, Deng Xiaoping.
And they cook up this plan to open Chinese markets.
And the plan was to maybe to spread democracy into America, but I suspect it was mostly to get really rich.
We open those markets, huge amount of money, giant multinational corporations are not tied to any geographical place, and they can get rich off their balls.
Now, some of these guys I think were also ideologically motivated.
The Rockefellers have funded communist crap all over the world for a very long time.
China was communist.
Deng Xiaoping said, I'm not opening the market.
I'm opening the market for socialism to make socialism productive.
And so they had a – I think there was more of a plan there than we take into account, which means Vivek gives – I need a tinfoil hat.
Vivek – Sees that our motivations in building China were necessarily good.
I think the motivations for building China were to create the pincher of a trap that's called Thucydides' trap in ancient kind of military strategy that they only escaped from would be to facilitate China's rise and decimate the West in order to avoid a nuclear-tipped World War III. And I think they knew what they were doing and were going to get rich on it.
joe rogan
You think by spreading democracy, their idea was to reinvigorate China's economy so that China becomes a threat?
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
Really?
james lindsay
Yeah, so is China get...
joe rogan
That is so 4D chess, the back pages of Reddit conspiracy.
james lindsay
Well, listen, we know that Klaus Schwab is...
If there are conspiracies, the James Bond villain...
Kind of not quite out of central casting.
joe rogan
See the photo we have of him in the bathroom?
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
With the Darth Vader outfit on?
james lindsay
With the spacesuit.
I'm the one who told you about his spacesuit.
We put it up on the screen.
joe rogan
Yes, yes.
james lindsay
Do you know who Klaus Schwab's mentor was?
joe rogan
I do, but I forgot.
james lindsay
Henry Kissinger.
joe rogan
That's right.
james lindsay
Who was in the same meeting.
This was a Harvard plot.
joe rogan
Well, his father was a Nazi.
james lindsay
I can't vet that for positive, sure, but that's what I have heard.
joe rogan
What is the truth of that?
Let's find out.
Who is Klaus Schwab's father?
At least his father did something.
james lindsay
Wasn't he the guy that was bringing the nuclear technology for the Nazis to South Africa or something like that?
joe rogan
Something crazy like that?
james lindsay
I mean, I know the story vaguely.
I knew it at one point.
joe rogan
Look, you can't help who your father is.
james lindsay
That's correct.
joe rogan
And, you know, unfortunately you get born and your dad's a Nazi.
james lindsay
I'm much less worried about Klaus being a Nazi than I am, like, he has an interview he gave where he's in his office and behind him up on the bookshelf is a bust of Lenin.
How the hell did that get there?
Like, other than Jordan Peterson, who puts one of those up?
unidentified
Communists.
james lindsay
Jordan's studying them, and that's why he puts them up as a reminder.
No shade at Jordan, obviously.
But, like, Klaus has got some, you know, big ambitions, I think.
And his mentor was Kissinger.
joe rogan
Well, he's such a strange guy, the way he talks about it, too.
It's so right out of a movie.
Like, this cannot be real.
No one is really.
You will owe nothing, and you will be happy.
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
With that accent and no one's freaking out?
james lindsay
I think that my favorite one is where he's having the conversation.
He's like, yes, in some years we will all have the chips on our brains.
And so you will be sitting there and I will be sitting here and we will be having a conversation.
jamie vernon
There was a false...
Attribution?
joe rogan
So it's fake?
Inaccurate?
This is from a book I read.
james lindsay
Yeah, this is Reuters.
joe rogan
Founder, Klaus Schwab, Family Tree shared online.
So what is the inaccuracies?
jamie vernon
He was related to the Rothschild family.
joe rogan
Oh, that was the fake one.
james lindsay
Oh, yeah, because his mother is, like, super secret.
joe rogan
Okay, so that's fake.
unidentified
That's not true.
joe rogan
That's not true.
But the thing about his father...
jamie vernon
That's what I was getting.
I mean, this is explaining what his father was, too.
His mother was Jewish.
joe rogan
And his father did what?
james lindsay
Don't open that can.
joe rogan
Well, I mean, that's the whole thing with Soros, though.
You know, Soros was Jewish, and his uncle took him around as a young boy when they confiscated...
He had property from the Jews, and he had to pretend that he was a Christian.
james lindsay
Yeah.
Did you ever see the interview with...
joe rogan
So who is his dad?
jamie vernon
I mean, I'm trying to get to something that says it, but there's not...
joe rogan
Okay, we should really clarify that, not miss it.
Okay, so who is this gentleman?
james lindsay
Wilhelm.
joe rogan
What did he do?
Wilhelm, what did you do?
Okay.
unidentified
Did Schoros's or Klaaschvab's father work for Hitler?
joe rogan
False.
Claim.
George Soros worked for Hitler.
Okay.
b-real
But what did his dad do?
joe rogan
Because this book that I read was about elite power structures.
And they go into the world economic form.
I wish I could remember exactly what they were saying.
But it was something to the tune of who his dad worked with.
james lindsay
Well, just to be clear, since you have the tinfoil hat right now, Joe, that my source for his mentor being Kissinger is a book called – that was published by the World Economic Forum called The World Economic Forum, The First 40 Years, which was published in 2011 to brag about how cool they've been.
He also brags that in 78, he started making connections to Deng Xiaoping and trying to bring the stakeholder, as he called it, capitalism model – It's this dirty fusion of neoliberalism, which is basically how do you get huge corporations to basically suck off of the government?
That's the thing the left has been mad about for 50 years.
How do you fuse that to communism?
And China is the answer.
And what I think is all this ESG stuff was constructed around it to make the West have it too.
joe rogan
So environmentalism, social – what is it?
Environmental social governance?
james lindsay
That's right, yeah.
joe rogan
That's ESG. Yeah.
And that stands for – like what is the goal of ESG? Corporate control.
unidentified
The stated goal.
joe rogan
Oh, no.
james lindsay
So it is to create a metric, a measurement tool to assess the likely long-term viability – Of a corporation based on its environmental, social, and internal corporate governance policies.
joe rogan
Long-term viability for the nation?
james lindsay
No, for the corporation.
joe rogan
For the corporation.
james lindsay
Because here's what's going on is ESG was created at the United Nations in 2003 by a guy named James Gifford.
And the point was – he said, well, there's at that point about $6 trillion of money that's sitting out there.
It's people's pensions.
It's like passive, right?
Mutual funds, index funds, all this – mutual funds particularly, 401Ks.
There's state pension funds in particular.
$6 trillion in the world sitting out there.
It's just people's retirement funds gaining interest, playing in the market through this money management.
And the question James Gifford asked was how – he was a forest guy.
He was like, how do we apply that to saving the forest, save the trees, right?
And so he came up with this idea that if we had environmental assessments, anytime you have a metric, you can use that metric in some way or another.
In other words, or you can game that metric.
If we had metrics to say, well, how environmentally compliant are companies?
Like kind of an extension of corporate social responsibility, they used to call it.
If we can measure that, then what we can do is we can start directing – we can say, well, companies that have a long-term – that have good environmental policy have a better long-term portfolio.
But these are 30-year investments because they're people's pensions.
So that's long-term success that we're interested in, not boom and bust cycles in the market.
So the stated ambition – Not just to do what I said, but specifically to do that to bring that passively invested money into what they call impact investing.
In other words, to do activism with investor money by investing in green energy companies or green other environmental companies or socially just companies or companies with good governance.
And in principle, at least the good governance thing should work.
But the thing is, is corruption exists.
I don't know how they neglected to account for that if we give them all the credit in So like right now, it's super corrupt.
I just did a podcast about this where I had this document.
It's not like some mysterious document.
It's on the Harvard website where they're talking about corporate bonuses, right?
So it's Harvard corporate law website document.
And they're talking about corporate bonuses and the corporate bonus structure and that your governance score, your ESG score, so the G part will go up if you give corporate bonuses to yourself for implementing ESG.
That's just naked corruption, right?
And so they can come in and say, well, you want a good ESG score?
And they can make that important or whatever.
I guess they have made that very important because everybody's doing it.
And they say, well, if you want a good ESG score, you need to put an activist on your board or 30 percent women on your board or DEI requirements on your Boeing board.
Or you have to have a good corporate equality index score, which is published by the Human Rights Campaign, which means that you're not just having a nondiscriminatory workplace for LGBT, but you're also promoting LGBT agendas.
You're lobbying on behalf of bills one way or the other.
And the legislature will tell you which ones.
Just a couple of years ago, they told the airlines they needed to fly around activists to the Pride Parade so they'd have more people with them for reduced prices.
Oh, yeah.
Why do you think Dylan Mulvaney's face was on a beer can?
The whole fallout of the Dylan Mulvaney explosion at Bud Light, all of it was about the CEI score because then the Human Rights Campaign came out and said, well, you didn't stand up for Dylan, so we're going to lower your score anyway.
And they were like, oh, no.
And then everything got all tossed up.
These numbers mean a lot to people.
So the stated goal was to take – to create a set of measurements that they could use to justify taking trillions of dollars of other people's money and doing activist investing with it.
unidentified
Right.
james lindsay
And then all turned into the S is now DEI. It's woke.
It's woke social justice.
It's not social responsibility.
It's whatever they want.
Elon Musk bought Twitter, and his social score for Tesla went through the floor.
Like, what did they have to do?
And then all of a sudden, Tesla's a racist company they accused him of.
Like, what are you talking about, right?
They didn't like that he bought Twitter.
Weapons manufacturers like Dick Cheney's Halliburton were social bad, bad, bad, bad.
And then all of a sudden the conflict in Ukraine breaks out and they're like, oh, we need missiles.
And they changed the score basically overnight because the social environment of the world changed.
These are real things.
This is all verifiable.
So I think it's an instrument.
Maybe it wasn't meant to be in 2003.
Maybe the guy just wanted to save the trees.
But it's become an instrument of control and effectively a social credit system for corporations to force corporations – And that's what Larry Fink said about it on TV. He said you could pull up – I'm sure we can find the video and pull it up where he says that we're interested in forcing behaviors and that's what we're doing.
joe rogan
I want to get to that, but I still don't want to gloss over Klaus Schwab's dad.
james lindsay
No, of course.
joe rogan
I want to remember that.
james lindsay
And I got a George Soros that I'd love to not gloss over, too.
joe rogan
Okay.
james lindsay
Because he had a crazy interview in 2004 nobody knows about, and I think he'll get a kick out of it.
joe rogan
So hold what you were just saying about Larry Fink.
We'll put that...
james lindsay
Yeah, we're piling Jamie up here.
jamie vernon
The best I could find is this Newsweek...
It was a story about whether he's linked to Nazi Germany.
This is...
I'll get down to here.
There's a post.
Look at this on the screen.
james lindsay
Look at him.
jamie vernon
That's not him.
joe rogan
That's not his dad, so that's a fake photo.
jamie vernon
Right, so that starts there.
Okay.
And then there is...
He worked at this company, Isher Weiss.
james lindsay
Yeah, that's right.
jamie vernon
And then this is where there's no proof, but it also says it's not definitive, but there's no actual...
joe rogan
It says, Hitler's father, on the other hand, was the managing director of a subsidiary of Zurich-based engineering firm, Eischer Weiss.
The history of Eugen's relationship with Nazism in general is complex, but there's no substantive evidence of ties to high-ranking German leadership, particularly Hitler.
No evidence.
A fact check published by accredited German journalist DPA used denazification records to uncover that Eugen Schwab was a member of some national socialist organizations, but that alone does not prove any relationship to German high command or a belief in Nazi ideology.
But wait a minute, but the German national socialist organizations back then essentially were Nazis.
james lindsay
Right?
joe rogan
I mean, that is what it means.
james lindsay
By definition, Nazi.
joe rogan
That's what it means.
Like, that's what Nazi means, right?
james lindsay
National socialism, yeah.
joe rogan
So this is a weird sort of...
It feels a little dodgy.
Yeah, it's dodging, right?
james lindsay
Yeah, and it says he doesn't have evidence of ties to high-ranking leadership.
He was a member of organizations tied to the party, just not Hitler.
joe rogan
But hold this.
While the Escherweiss branch in Ravensburg, Germany, which Eugene managed, used prisoners of war and forced laborers, it's not clear whether the company was forced to do so by the Nazis or because of a lack of workers.
Wait a minute.
You just admitted 100% that he's a Nazi.
Because that's what Nazis did.
They used prisoners of war and forced laborers.
So they ran prison camps.
With probably Jews.
So what does that mean?
That's what the Nazis did.
Are we arguing over semantics?
james lindsay
Well, they are.
I don't think we are.
joe rogan
But that's an incredible argument.
To say that he managed a plant.
He managed the branch that used prisoners of war and forced laborers, but we're not clear whether he's a Nazi.
This is a weird article.
james lindsay
It's super weird.
Newsweek.
joe rogan
Well, maybe Newsweek was like, you gotta be real careful with what you say.
unidentified
I mean, it's a bit of a damning accusation.
jamie vernon
He was a confidant of Hitler, and I think they're just saying there's not a proof that he was that close to him.
joe rogan
Okay, but this is weird, right?
They're discrediting it by saying maybe he wasn't that close to Hitler, there's no proof.
But what they're not discrediting is that he did exactly what was horrific about what the Nazis did in World War II. Yeah, and I saw the word plutonium up there, so the nuclear stuff that we were talking about is connected to it.
What a weird article.
That's how much power is at the top.
You have to write weird articles like that going, well, there's no real proof that him and Hitler were homies.
james lindsay
Yeah, he was just a member of some national socialist organization.
joe rogan
Unlike reports, Hitler was not his top nine on MySpace.
james lindsay
I mean, That would be like – you'd think that they would write the article like about me because I've said like make America great again before but I've never met Trump.
So like would they write the article like James has never met Trump?
No, I got an SPLC profile that's sort of the other way around.
Did you know I'm an extremist now by the way, Joe?
joe rogan
I think I am.
james lindsay
Oh.
joe rogan
I think I've been labeled that.
james lindsay
They put me in a category called general hate.
So I sent a letter formally thanking them for the title.
I'm general hate.
It's like a war general.
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
I totally missed it.
Anyway, I'm funny.
joe rogan
Well, it's just ridiculous.
You're a brilliant guy and you're pointing out really important stuff.
james lindsay
Do you know what it's...
One of the first things they go after me for on there is, it's like the second thing that they go after me, that I made a series of tweets.
So you're a comedian, you get it, right?
I made a series of tweets mocking George Floyd on January 6th.
joe rogan
On January 6th?
james lindsay
Yeah, I pretended that George Floyd is like, you know, leftist Santa Claus.
So I was like, if you fight for justice for George Floyd, the spirit of George Floyd will bring you presents on January 6th.
joe rogan
Oh, boy.
james lindsay
Just stupid jokes.
I totally had forgotten that I had done it.
And then it was on my SPLC profile.
I'm like, oh, my God, these people.
joe rogan
Jokes.
Well, did you see about that Flemish...
That guy who was a part of the government who just got sentenced to one year in jail for sharing racist memes in a private chat.
james lindsay
I saw that last night.
Yeah.
Holy crap.
joe rogan
A private chat.
So if you got like a fucking iMessage chat group, is that a private chat?
Are they talking about that?
Are they talking about social media platforms?
Either way.
This guy shared racist memes.
james lindsay
Well, that was like when Tucker Carlson went to Russia, which I'm kind of like, I don't know what that's about for sure, but Tucker Carlson went to Russia and he finds out while he's there that the NSA is reading his encrypted signal chat.
joe rogan
I have a theory about that.
I don't think...
If I was the government and there was a bunch of these...
Companies that do something like that.
I'd make my own company.
james lindsay
Yeah, right, of course.
joe rogan
Or I'd infiltrate all of them.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
Come on, guys.
It's not really encrypted, right?
james lindsay
Yeah, totally.
joe rogan
How the fuck do you know?
I know a lot of people that trust those things.
They'll say wild shit on those things.
Hey, talk to me on WeChat or whatever.
james lindsay
Yeah, totally owned by Facebook.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's fucking get the fuck out of here, bitch.
Let's make a WhatsApp group.
james lindsay
Oh, yeah, that's WhatsApp.
joe rogan
WeChat is the one that's on my CCP. WeChat's the Chinese one.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
But, Jamie, so what was the story behind that?
jamie vernon
The Flemish guy?
joe rogan
Yes.
jamie vernon
I'm reading it right now.
He's trying to find out where they found those things.
joe rogan
I want to know what the memes were, if they're any good.
jamie vernon
It says they were accused of using a chat group to exchange racist, anti-Semitic, and other extremist comments, but I'm not finding it.
joe rogan
Right, but they're saying memes.
The problem with memes is it could just be funny.
It could be like the Jews in the tunnel in New York City.
james lindsay
Yeah, right.
joe rogan
And something crazy like they're encountering Gollum down there, and that's a racist meme.
james lindsay
Well, it wasn't like the Pepe Frog alone like a racist meme or something.
It's like a frog.
joe rogan
Exactly.
But the thing is, like, you could take that frog and put a Hitler armband on him, and now, all of a sudden, the frog is tied to Hitler.
james lindsay
Yeah, exactly.
joe rogan
Which is what they do.
james lindsay
Yeah, that's exactly right.
joe rogan
But it's also, people do use that frog for crazy shit for funsies.
james lindsay
Yeah, for right.
joe rogan
Because they're talking, they're shitposting.
james lindsay
Yeah, shitposting's totally a thing.
joe rogan
Shitposting is a thing, and you have to understand, these people don't even mean what they're saying.
They're saying something, some of them might, but a lot of them are just making something that's so outrageously offensive that it's funny.
james lindsay
Right.
joe rogan
And they're doing it anonymously, and they're sharing with people just for the lulls.
unidentified
Yeah, shocked.
james lindsay
Shock comedy.
It's totally a thing.
And then you got some dude, you know, that passes physical fitness test wearing a polo and some khakis like, oh, we've got an extremist here, guys.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
You know, it's weird that physical fitness and exercise and health is being tied to right-wing extremity now.
Extremists.
james lindsay
Yeah, I saw your gym.
You're totally a lunatic.
joe rogan
I must be a lunatic.
But there's many times they've tried to push things like that.
You're like, what is the motivation behind this?
Is this just for clicks and outrage?
It could be.
Is there someone who's actually saying that it would be a good idea if we connected health and fitness?
To right-wing extremism so that you'd be scared to be fit and healthy?
That's the full...
You want to go full tinfoil hat.
Who do you want to have a war with?
Do you want to have a war with Trump supporters?
Or do you want to have a war with the people who wear pink hats and are mad?
james lindsay
Like our health ministers.
joe rogan
Yeah, exactly.
Which war do you want to go to?
The people that are unhealthy, I'll fight them all day long.
They're going to quit.
They don't have any training.
james lindsay
You just walk up a hill.
joe rogan
Yeah, fight them from the top of a large mountain.
That's where you make your base.
No one's making it up there except fit people.
I mean, that's probably what...
The reason why they put civilizations up high, you know?
Make it really hard to get to them.
james lindsay
Yeah.
Lots of advantages.
joe rogan
This is stupid.
It's a stupid thing.
Everybody should be healthy, you fucking idiot.
Like, what are you saying?
james lindsay
Well, I get to take the tinfoil hat back.
I think there's a strategy.
I call this the politics of compliance.
And I think that we've gone through it with everything.
In fact, I think it's all they do.
It's the same thing over and over again, right?
Whether it's COVID, whether it's MAGA's as deplorables, which worked kind of backfired big time, right?
And then whether it's all the identity politics, whether it's the environmental stuff, even with this, though, what they do, and this is the politics of compliance.
I just did this for Robert Maloney.
He had me come speak at his International Crisis Summit, and I'm sitting there and I have to talk.
It's like 9 in the morning.
I'm not awake yet.
I'm not a morning person.
I'm like, what the hell am I going to talk about?
And so I get an idea that comes to my head, politics of compliance.
So what it is is that you start off by saying, look, we're going to have this glorious, better world, but there are people who are keeping us from getting there, right?
So there are the people who want to move forward into the glorious better world, but then there's the enemies of the people who are dragging their feet, the deplorables, the climate deniers.
It doesn't matter if the climate change thing is true or not because there's a label now, right?
The Christian nationalists, there's a label now, the racists, the transphobes.
So we could have unity.
But we can't have unity.
You were making the sacrifice.
You got the shot in your arm.
You did what you were supposed to, but we can't open up a society yet because these other people are dragging their feet or resisting.
So you have to have ways then, why the fitness thing, right?
You have to have ways to identify who the people are that aren't going along with the program.
So it's like you.
You got blown up for this.
You're like, well, I got COVID. I feel like shit.
I feel really, really bad.
Did you know, by the way, last time I was here, I went home with COVID, even though we did the test.
joe rogan
You got COVID? Yeah, I went home.
james lindsay
I had COVID. How'd you get it, do you think?
I think from when I went out to dinner after this, because I felt fine until I got home.
joe rogan
Oh, right from dinner?
Like a couple hours later?
james lindsay
Well, there was somebody at dinner that had like a cold or something.
But the COVID is like, so I barely got sick.
So I didn't know that it was like the person I would have gone out to dinner.
I wouldn't have thought I was sick.
joe rogan
I didn't even say I really got really sick.
That's part of the problem, too.
james lindsay
But the thing is that you became an emblem of the thing that you're not allowed to talk about, right?
The apple pectin, the horse paste, right?
And so there's all those articles.
That's why you got all that drama.
You got kicked off stuff or whatever all happened to you.
I don't remember exactly what happened, but you were the pariah, man.
Why?
Well, one of the things I remember you talking about was health and fitness.
Like, I'm healthy.
I'm fit.
I got this set of drugs.
I took it.
It seems to work.
I felt way better real quick.
And they can't have that if they're trying to create this dynamic that all the people who are staying home and wearing a mask and, you know...
We're cowering in fear primarily or later getting a shot.
joe rogan
And more importantly, complying to the pharmaceutical.
james lindsay
That's why I call it the politics of compliance.
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
So all of a sudden you became an emblem of, well, you know, maybe you should go outside and exercise sometimes.
And that's a huge problem for that group of compliant people.
And if you can whip them up or create conditions with misuses of power like many of our state governments and national or federal government did, Canada really did, and say, well, we have to keep everything closed down for your safety and we could open it back up except disinformation right-wing extremists like Joe Rogan are out there pushing the wrong ideas.
Well, in that case, you can get people to hate the person who's not going along with the program.
That's why I call it the politics of compliance.
jamie vernon
This is what I could find about this story.
joe rogan
The Flemish story.
Okay.
So, Belgium's far-right prodigy gets prison term for inciting violence.
jamie vernon
So, this goes back to 2018. So, I'll shorter walk you through the background.
joe rogan
Okay.
unidentified
Okay.
jamie vernon
This is the sentencing that happened.
james lindsay
He got a year.
jamie vernon
Five other people in his group got suspended prison sentences.
Their charges included hatred, racism, Holocaust denial, and breaching local gun law.
It's the only notice of that I saw.
joe rogan
What is local gun law?
Is that like depicting guns in a favorable way?
Like, what is their law?
jamie vernon
It could be that...
Because if it's a meme.
joe rogan
Isn't that wild, like, gun law of memes?
james lindsay
I love how good you're getting at picking apart their BS, though.
jamie vernon
It said here it showed them posting pictures of themselves holding weapons.
joe rogan
Saying they were totally ready.
Oh, okay.
So posting photos, is it illegal to hold the guns?
Like, I want to know if they're illegally possessing the guns.
Is that what they're saying with gun law, or is it just photographs of the guns?
jamie vernon
This is the report from the 2018 documentary that got made about them.
Some guy got infiltrated and got into their Discord, I think, is where they were sharing some of the stuff.
joe rogan
So these are far-right, allegedly far-right people in Belgium.
jamie vernon
And I'll show you, not showing the audience this, but this shows some of the memes, I guess.
joe rogan
Okay.
james lindsay
I don't know which ones are illegal or not.
joe rogan
That Muhammad is a Lego puppet, a Lego toy.
And this is this woody Islamic harassment reward, the heroic man with sex.
jamie vernon
Obviously Nazi meme.
joe rogan
When you go full gas.
jamie vernon
No, they're obviously Nazi meme.
joe rogan
Mm-hmm.
See, these are problematic.
You can't be racist if there's only one race.
Okay, that's like an anti-Hitler meme.
jamie vernon
Something like that with the guns might have been the problem.
joe rogan
Just holding the gun.
So here's the thing.
Is that gun illegal there?
jamie vernon
I don't know which one.
That didn't explain it.
joe rogan
Let's Google.
Just pause for a second and open up a new tab and Google Belgian gun laws.
I want to know if they have laws similar to...
There's some countries that have a high population of people having guns.
Firearms are generally not allowed in Belgium, but goods such as switchblades and pepper spray are also considered a prohibited weapon.
Okay, so you can't carry a gun.
Click on that.
Can citizens carry a gun in Belgium?
See if there's any?
See where it says it right there?
Just click on that.
Whether an arm is legal or illegal mainly depends on who owns it, sells it, or uses it.
While most people are prohibited from owning or using automatic firearms, they are not illegal per se.
The armed forces and the police may use them.
Traders may procure these arms for them, and arms collectors can own them.
So, if these guys were an armed collector, they could own them, but that gun was an automatic weapon, I think.
I'm not really a gun expert, and I only got a quick glance at it, but it looked like an automatic weapon.
At the very least, a semi-automatic weapon.
jamie vernon
Could have been that.
joe rogan
It had a large magazine.
Go to the photo again of the gun.
Let me take a look at it.
So either way, it seems like unless you're a security person, yeah, that's an automatic weapon.
Unless you're a security person, it might not be.
It could be an AR. It could be a semi-automatic weapon.
I don't know.
But at the end of the day, it seems like unless you're military or police, you're not supposed to own that.
Right.
So that could be the gun law.
Like, they had a photo of it.
That makes me feel a little bit better than if it's just like a gun meme.
james lindsay
Yeah, if it was just a meme, that'd be insane.
joe rogan
Well, those memes, those are insane that they're using the Hitler one as an example.
Because it's really like showing that Hitler was crazy.
Like, you can't be racist.
This is my thing.
We'll have only one race, so no one can be racist.
Like, that's fucking ridiculous.
james lindsay
I mean, that's one of the things that the SPLC accuses me of, though, is that I promoted the white genocide theory, which that is not true.
But what are you going to do about these things?
joe rogan
Well, there's plenty of people that have said crazy things about white people lately that you're allowed to say that just drives me nuts.
james lindsay
I just said that if the logic of CRT was played out to its conclusion, that it would end in a genocide of whites, which is a completely different thing.
That word if means a lot.
joe rogan
If it was taken to its fullest extent.
I think there's also a problem with When you tell people that a group of people are responsible for things, or a group of people just completely composed of individuals with completely different lives, and everyone's got different experiences, and we say that that group of people is either bad or that group of people is responsible for everything, as soon as you do that, you allow othering.
james lindsay
That's right.
joe rogan
Othering is the number one problem we have tribally, culturally, that we can look at other human beings as if they're not us.
And this is what's going on in Gaza in Israel right now.
james lindsay
That's what's going on with this guy.
I'm not going to defend whatever, but this dude, like, the counter-reaction eventually to relentless identity politics is for the other side to start saying, okay, identity politics.
Right or wrong, what it does is it creates more of itself.
It's like it's contagious.
joe rogan
It makes people more racist.
james lindsay
Yeah, it does.
joe rogan
It does.
And when they feel like there's racism allowed against white people, that there's this double standard, then they get racist.
There's a lot of people that do that, man.
And it fuels it.
It's fucking horrible.
We should abhor racism with everything.
We should just treat everyone as individuals.
james lindsay
That's right.
Any arbitrary power, especially when it's applied corporately to groups, we should oppose it.
In Tennessee, it's in our state constitution.
The second article or whatever, Section 1, Article 1, or I got that backwards.
No, Article 1, Section 2 is that The non-resistance, I think I can almost do it from memory, the non-resistance against arbitrary power is to be considered slavish, absurd, and against the good and happiness of mankind or something like that.
So we should resist racism's arbitrary power.
You don't know that guy.
His skin color doesn't tell.
It's arbitrary to dislike him or to exclude him or whatever.
Whether he's white, whether he's black, whether he's Hispanic, it doesn't matter.
Same thing with sexism.
You don't know what that woman's capable of, for sure.
Let her try.
It doesn't mean you change the standards, right?
And so this is the pattern that has been exploited.
And this is where the double standards came from.
It's you should give us access.
And our sensibilities are like, hell yeah, we should give people access.
Let them try.
Let them in.
You know, don't exclude people.
Racism sucks.
Homophobia sucks.
Sexism sucks.
Misogyny is awful.
Let them in.
But then what happens is they say, well, you're not accommodating us.
You're not accommodating.
So it's like firefighters, like, well, we got to lower the standard or military.
We got to lower the standard so more women can pass the test.
Well, now we've got a problem.
Right?
And so after you make the accommodation, then you've changed the political structure.
And if you – it's one thing if that's just about people.
But what – it's like almost all this stuff seems to forget that manipulators and sociopaths and psychopaths exist.
joe rogan
Exactly.
james lindsay
Because what they're going to do is they're going to come in and they're going to say, you have to change it for me.
And you change it for them.
And then they're going to say, you have to change it for me again.
And then you change it for them again.
And then, you know, an inch or two at a time, you're a mile down the road.
You're like, how did I get here?
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Right.
james lindsay
But that's the thing.
It's like I'm all in this restorative justice thing in the schools.
Oh, let's sit around and have a talk circle and talk it out.
Two kids get in a fight or whatever.
Somebody is doing some antisocial something.
Let's talk it out to the group and let's heal.
All right.
So it sounds a little hippie to me, but, you know, fine.
Let's look at it.
Some percentage, I would guess it's probably three or four, not very big, of the population, just to throw a guess out there because that's roughly where you start.
What's the total number of psychopaths, borderline personality, and so on?
It's about three or four percent of the population.
They're going to be like, oh, I can get away with this.
Oh, we have to – I'm not going to get in trouble if I bust some other kid's head at school.
I just have to sit in a talk circle and say, oh, I'm sorry.
OK, whatever.
And then it's all over and we've healed.
Like they're going to game – there are people who will game a system.
And it's like this kind of like empathy-driven, airy-fairy, if we just gave everybody money, there would be no crime.
Nonsense is driving us off of a cliff and it's causing these fights in our schools through terrible policies like restorative justice policies.
A lot of it's in criminals.
I remember all these articles back a year or two ago.
I don't know if they're still publishing.
It's like if we just paid people not to commit crime, they wouldn't commit crime.
joe rogan
Yeah, I've seen that.
james lindsay
Like, what the hell are you talking about?
It's like, have you ever done something edgy?
It's fun.
joe rogan
I'm not a criminal.
It's a part of their identity.
james lindsay
That, for real, like if you're in a gang, that's how you like validate yourself too.
joe rogan
Wasn't there something, they were trying to do this recently, they were trying to give people money to not commit violent crimes?
There was like an actual policy that was being proposed.
Somewhere.
james lindsay
Like Maryland or something.
joe rogan
Somewhere nutty.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
Where you're like, what the fuck did you just say?
And the root of it, it's like, if you don't have...
Everyone wants a meritocracy.
We all agree to that.
We want a meritocracy.
We want the best people to...
And we want competition, which allows people to get better, and it allows us to have the best products, and the best thing, and the best music, and the best art.
But what is this?
jamie vernon
Give people money to not commit crimes.
joe rogan
This is it.
The Dream Keeper Foundation Fellowship will pay participants.
I think this is it.
A new program out of San Francisco aims to decrease gun violence by paying high-risk individuals at least $300 a month to stay out of trouble.
That just means don't get caught.
That just means don't get caught.
And also, how do you make your money?
$300 is not going to cover...
james lindsay
In San Francisco, especially, yeah.
joe rogan
If you're selling meth, you're making a lot more than $300.
james lindsay
That's right.
joe rogan
Like, what are they going to do?
That's ridiculous.
But my point was, where I was getting to, is like, everybody wants a meritocracy.
But if you can keep...
So, there's no equality of opportunity.
If you can keep it that way, you're never going to really get a meritocracy, and that would be a better way to control it.
james lindsay
Yeah, sure.
joe rogan
I mean, this is full tinfoil hat.
The reason why all these social justice people are so excited about pumping billions of dollars into Ukraine and billions of dollars into whatever's happening with Israel and I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Fix this.
There's got to be some sort of a solution.
But if you don't, if we never get, not in 10 or 20 years, never get to equality of opportunity, you're always going to have a certain amount of disenfranchised people.
You have a portion of your population for sure that's going to be in trouble.
They're going to have problems.
Then you always got solutions.
You've always got opportunities.
You've got like this little moving game.
If everything is even, and then it's just competition, and then America thrives to be the greatest utopian idea of what we had hoped it would be.
Well, then it's really difficult to control people because they recognize that freedom is one of the most important aspects of having this kind of amazing opportunity to do whatever the fuck you want.
james lindsay
Brother, this is why I wear a tinfoil hat now all the time, basically.
Except I'm not really afraid of the radio waves, so I don't really wear a tinfoil hat at all.
I'm more afraid that this is intentional in a lot of places.
Well, we know in those cities.
We know.
joe rogan
But if they played it out this much, if they thought about it and said, you know what?
We want more crime.
We want more illegal aliens.
And if we keep the chaos, then we keep passing laws.
james lindsay
We'll get further down the road.
Because if you read the Marxist literature, which is unfortunately my damn job, They – you can derive a number of different conclusions.
One of these conclusions that you can derive absolutely is – do you know what repels a revolution in a country better than anything?
Stability, social stability.
So if you can destabilize a population, then you can get them to crave a revolution or you can – like with the Patriot Act, you can get them to assent to sacrificing their liberties for security.
So if you can destabilize an area, then you can – We just saw this.
This woman was in the Fox News this morning, so I had to double-check.
But she's talking about – was she from Maryland?
She's in the government.
She says that she wants to burn the country to the ground so her ideology can rise out of it, out of the ashes.
Right?
So she said this publicly.
She's the equity coordinator in one of these cities.
If you can find it, Jamie, you can pull it up.
I don't know.
It's on Fox News.
Equity coordinator, burn city, rise from the ashes.
You'll probably find it.
So this...
We know who's causing these crime problems.
It's those DAs.
We know who ran the DAs, who paid the money to run them is the Open Society Foundation.
They call them Soros DAs.
We finally broke the spell saying that this very, very rich man and now his very, very rich son are using their very large amounts of money to do things that aren't necessarily great politically.
joe rogan
Well, they used to be able to say if you criticize George Soros, you're an anti-Semite.
And that was what they always went with.
We always went with that.
james lindsay
Like, you got to see this thing, and I don't want to overload Jamie again, but in 2004, Soros gave an interview to the LA Times, and you can actually look this up.
I thought, that can't be real.
It's real.
He said that he thinks he's a god.
He said that he always suspected Is it possible that he was doing exactly what you were doing when you were making jokes about George Floyd on January 6th?
Maybe.
I'm trying to think of a time where I would have talked to the Los Angeles Times in a deliberate interview and said, you know, I'm Zool.
joe rogan
Maybe he was a little drunk and he was just like, why am I doing this bullshit interview?
I'm worth $30 billion.
james lindsay
Let me just talk some shit.
He reads pretty intentionally, but it's possible.
Maybe George Soros was doing some shitposting to the LA Times.
joe rogan
I was having a good time.
james lindsay
I mean, I would shitpost.
I would love to shitpost these big journalistic outlets now, but 20 years ago, I don't know.
joe rogan
Well, now they're all falling apart.
If you want to shitpost, you better do it quick.
james lindsay
I mean, you know what I did in the past.
I did my shitposting.
joe rogan
You did a lot of shitposting.
james lindsay
I did some epic shitposting.
joe rogan
What was the thing that we were just looking up before that, though?
james lindsay
The Fox thing?
joe rogan
Yes.
james lindsay
Yeah, because you should see this.
This is for real.
I saw it this morning.
joe rogan
Yes, the lady said burn it all down and have her idea of what society should be.
james lindsay
It's unfortunate.
I took a screenshot and I can pull it on my phone, but nobody can see that.
joe rogan
Well, there's a lot of people that don't have anything, that haven't accomplished anything, where that sounds like a good idea.
james lindsay
That's right.
So if you can make these people...
jamie vernon
It's just the headline.
joe rogan
I'm trying to find the video.
So my ideology can rise from the ashes.
james lindsay
The equity officer.
It's like, okay, lady.
joe rogan
Equity.
But if you've created a whole industry based on equity.
james lindsay
But also says, I don't want to work.
joe rogan
I don't want to work.
james lindsay
This is exactly what you were just saying.
joe rogan
Yeah, she also says, I don't want to work.
She doesn't want to work.
james lindsay
So we've got to ask the question 100% for real though, right?
Equity official wants her ideology to rise from the ashes.
What ideology is it that she wants to – it's the equity one.
Well, what is that?
Do you know the definition of equity?
joe rogan
What is it?
james lindsay
It is an administered system in which – what's the word I'm looking for?
It's an administered system in which shares are adjusted so that citizens or participants are made equal.
So it's not equality of opportunity.
It's shares are adjusted so people are made equal.
So that's when you and I go to the range and I shoot the bow and I suck.
And you shoot the bow and you put it through the hole.
Then Jamie goes over and pulls my arrow out, moves it over three inches and sticks it in and like, James tied you.
I can't beat you.
I have to tie you.
joe rogan
Right.
james lindsay
Or we pull your arrow out of the bullseye and we move it over and like put it like right below mine in like the third or fourth ring out.
Actually, I missed the target.
Let's not lie.
Let's not brag about my show.
jamie vernon
It's worded slightly differently.
joe rogan
I can't wait for society to collapse so my ideology can rise from the ashes.
What's different about that?
jamie vernon
Burn.
I mean, the word burn is different.
joe rogan
Rise from the ashes?
It says the same thing.
That's what we read.
james lindsay
No, it's in this other quote in 2020. So Fox has stitched some things together here.
joe rogan
Okay.
So a different quote says, already been planning for how we will eat and live and grow after we burn it all down.
Well, I think the idea is that there's enough money.
If you take away the money from the billionaires and distribute it evenly, no one has to work.
james lindsay
Yeah, that's right.
joe rogan
It's like a 12-year-old's idea of what to do with money.
james lindsay
It's exactly what it is.
joe rogan
And it's also like...
Do you like phones?
Okay, who do you think makes those phones?
Who do you think designs those phones?
Who do you think works really fucking hard to make sure that the new Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra is better than the iPhone?
Who the fuck do you need competition?
james lindsay
Yeah, the person who does that is somebody who's willing to lay it on the line for a huge reward if it works out.
joe rogan
They want a yacht!
james lindsay
They want a yacht.
joe rogan
I want a yacht.
That guy wants a yacht.
He's like, I can see myself right now in the fucking British Virgin Islands, party with my friends on this yacht.
That's what he wants.
So that's why he's willing to work so hard.
If you fucking get free money, you're not going to work that hard, and you're not going to get the Samsung S24 Ultra.
You're not going to get that.
james lindsay
As in the thing is not going to exist.
joe rogan
It's not going to exist.
james lindsay
Nobody has the drive to make it.
joe rogan
No one's going to make it.
You're going to be forced to have a...
Imagine that person who said that.
Imagine if that person had to design electric cars, had to put together a manufacturing plant, had to figure out...
Imagine!
Imagine!
Some fucking person who says, I don't want to work.
I want to burn it all down.
I don't want to work.
So my ideology can And you take them seriously?
And this is a person that's in charge of – this is a thought person?
A person who's in charge of ideas?
And a person who's in charge of implementing some sort of a better system for society?
For real?
james lindsay
Yeah.
Ideology is a word people don't understand.
I had to read in the- It's a cult!
That's the word I was going for.
Thank you.
It is.
It's a cult.
It's a cult.
Okay?
So what it is, ideology is a fancy word for a mythology that the society buys into, that has a direction and that has activity.
It's a cult.
What we're looking at is the dynamics of a cult.
Everything will work out if everybody believes it.
We know how it'll work.
Nobody else knows how it'll work.
unidentified
Yeah.
james lindsay
Put us in charge.
Obviously, when it doesn't work, somebody else is at fault.
That's actually – do you know that that's actually – you can talk to people who still believe the Soviet Union could have worked out, and they say the reason the communist countries failed – because obviously there are catastrophes, hundreds of millions dead, nothing works, they collapse.
They say that it was because there are capitalist countries pressuring them from the outside that prevent them from working.
So you can say, I've had this conversation.
So it can only work if every country is communist?
And they're like, that's right.
That's a global cult is what that is.
That's not real.
That's fantasy land.
And that's the – I think because equity means socialism as I just told you.
I think that that redistributes shares to make participants equal.
I think that that actually kind of shows that this is cult mentality that we're dealing with.
joe rogan
It is cult mentality but it's ingenious.
This is what's ingenious.
The genius aspect of it is that they've managed to cast such a wide net over what it means to be progressive that they've included all these radical Marxist ideas that everybody dismissed forever.
And they threw them all in with this gender stuff and LBGTQ stuff.
And then they threw that all in with race.
And then they threw that all in with immigration.
And then somehow attached it to funding international conflicts.
james lindsay
That's right.
joe rogan
At the expense of the people, the poorest people, who could benefit the most from that money.
james lindsay
That's right.
And using other people's pension money to fund a lot of it or to get it off the ground.
joe rogan
And if you oppose it, you're fascist.
It's...
Kind of brilliant.
james lindsay
It's sort of brilliant.
joe rogan
It's kind of brilliant.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's either intentional or we're just so vulnerable to ideologies, which seems to also be the case.
It's why there's so many different sects of religions, even sects of Christianity.
The fucking Protestants hated the Catholics forever.
What happened in Iraq.
With the Sunnis and the Shias.
This is always the case!
james lindsay
It's always the case.
joe rogan
People have like really rigid ideologies and the punishment for abandoning them or the punishment for stepping outside is death!
Death!
You're fucking dead, you bitch!
james lindsay
Yeah, that's right.
joe rogan
You're not one of us.
james lindsay
You're not one.
joe rogan
And that is what we're seeing in this country.
unidentified
That's right.
joe rogan
We're seeing this weird leftist, progressive ideology with a super wide net that covers so many things, including all these industries that are set up to make it look like they want a better world, where really they just want to dominate a sector of the market.
Whether it's green energy or agriculture or food or plant-based meat or any of this fucking psycho shit that they're trying to push all the time, they're doing it for profit and they're doing it this super wide net of being a good person, being a progressive.
james lindsay
That's why I call it neoliberal communism.
And I say that that Deng Xiaoping character we were talking about earlier is like he's the guy that nobody knows about except, I mean, the Chinese do, obviously.
But we really need to pay attention to what he cooked up and how what they have – whether it's World Economic Forum or UN or the WHO or their god-awful treaty to the health sovereignty thing.
Have you seen – you know what I'm talking about, right?
joe rogan
What is that?
james lindsay
Well, let me finish the thought and we'll come back to it.
So they're copying that same model.
It's neoliberalism, which is how do you get huge corporations to be able to basically get tons of money and have monopoly power and make it off of the government?
That's why the Rockefeller guy would have been interested in all this.
And how do you do it with a communist ideology at the same time?
China is the model.
We're seeing it build out in the West.
This stuff like we now are seeing proof.
It just came out the other day that the Chinese are like funding the trans stuff.
They're like pushing it, right?
I just wrote a book.
I didn't even know that to put it in the book.
I wrote a book about the trans stuff.
It just came out on the 29th called The Queering of the American Child to talk about how schools have been turned into like indoctrination centers.
It all goes back to the not just Marxist but Maoist strategy.
To make the world conform, that politics of compliance, to make the world conform to this new ideological vision that they have.
And it's got to be, like we were saying, it's got to be religious to the people who believe it.
joe rogan
It is religious to the people who believe it.
james lindsay
They even say that.
It's new values.
Klaus Schwab said that you can't rationalize – how did he say it?
You can't rationalize values through the intellectual process alone.
It requires faith.
joe rogan
We've all seen children that grow up in religious cults.
We've all seen the horror stories of children that come from these radical religious cults and they escape when they get older and they tell the story of the indoctrination and what all they believed.
When I see a woman and she's got three trans kids, that is what I think of.
james lindsay
Yeah, for sure.
joe rogan
I think of someone who is a full adherent and ideologically captured by this cult to the point where they see value in having their child be a part of the LBGTQ movement because it looks good for them socially.
It's like they have a flag on their fucking porch.
james lindsay
Yep.
joe rogan
And they wave their kids around.
And it's weird.
And it's not everybody.
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
It's not everybody.
But it's not everybody that has trans kids or a kid who thinks he's trans.
It's probably gay.
And probably if you leave them alone and don't encourage them to castrate themselves.
james lindsay
Or a young woman with trauma or, you know...
joe rogan
Autism.
james lindsay
Autism going through her period, which is like, what's going on in my body?
I don't like it.
joe rogan
If you have girls, that's a traumatic experience for them.
It's very difficult.
It's confusing.
It's weird.
james lindsay
That's why we wrote this book, man.
The whole book is like, queer theory is the doctrine of a religious cult.
It's based on sex, it primarily targets kids, and it's got barely anything to do with gay people.
Almost nothing.
And so...
joe rogan
Also this idea that the only way to fix what's bothering you is surgery.
james lindsay
Surgery.
joe rogan
It's crazy.
james lindsay
Or hormones.
Oh my god.
unidentified
It's crazy.
james lindsay
Insane.
joe rogan
Well, in Europe, or in the UK, rather, they've banned these hormone blockers now for children.
james lindsay
Yeah, the UK, the NHS just backed off of that completely.
It's like, okay, your move, United States, because this is serious.
joe rogan
It is serious.
And what scares me is that they have a socialized medicine system, and they can back off of things, I think, a little bit easier than we can in America when they've opened up how many gender-affirming care clinics.
james lindsay
There's a path, and I mean, I don't know how many legislators pay attention to the show, but they should take it seriously.
Missouri has kind of tread the way.
A lot of these states, there's 26 states that have tried to ban transgender care so far, and they're getting sued.
Of course they're getting sued, right?
Of course they're getting sued.
Some plaintiff comes in, the ACLU shows up with an army of lawyers, and they're like, no, it's civil rights, it's medically necessary, blah, blah, blah.
And then it's a battle in the court, and it depends on who the judge is.
There's another way.
Missouri actually more or less stopped this stuff with one simple change to the law.
They changed the statute of limitations for medical harm.
So my thought is if you're under 20 and you undergo some of this medical treatment, you have a 20 year statute of limitations.
Anybody who gets the surgery done, you know, surgeries, hormones, whatever, under 20 years old, they have until their 40th birthday if they decide they regret it to file a malpractice suit.
Not to win the malpractice suit, but to file one.
The statute of limitations in Missouri previously that was either two or three years and they extended it and I don't know exactly how long.
And it basically shut it down.
We could shut a lot of this down by – because America, like you said, works differently.
We could – we don't have socialized – we could shut this down through litigation.
And that litigation, all you have to do is open the – what do they call rights to action.
So let's say I'm in my 40s, so it's not like that.
But if I'm a 19-year-old or 17-year-old or 15-year-old like Chloe Cole was and I go and I get – Right now, usually, you cannot.
I mean, some of these detransitioned teenagers are suing.
You know, Chloe was and You know Chloe, right?
Chloe Cole?
joe rogan
I've seen the story.
james lindsay
Okay, yeah.
So some of these detransitioners...
joe rogan
It's horrible how they get treated, too.
james lindsay
Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
People attack them like they're traitors.
james lindsay
They get attacked like traitors because they left a cult.
joe rogan
Exactly.
james lindsay
And listen to how they talk.
They talk like I was in a cult.
Like I was completely convinced I had other problems.
This would solve all my problems.
I was affirmed at every step.
That's love bombing.
So there's this queer educator, which is a...
It's a fucking weird thing to even say, right?
His name is Kevin Kumashiro.
And Kevin Kumashiro wrote his paper back in 2002 titled Against Repetition.
And in this paper, he actually says that the point of social justice and specifically queer education is to lead children into personal crisis and then structure their environment so they resolve the crisis toward social justice.
That's trauma bonding.
That's cult recruitment.
That should be a prison sentence.
And they know they're doing it.
They're leading them into personal crisis.
It's like hard to even say the sentencing and you get mad because these are children.
joe rogan
But it's so crazy that we've always protected children from influence.
We've always protected children from bad decisions.
That's why you can't get a tattoo before you're 18 years old.
james lindsay
No, they have to go after the kids.
They have to because they're soft targets.
You're 100 percent right, but they're after childhood innocence.
They say that too.
There are papers against childhood innocence saying that it's a social construct meant to protect some kids and not others and meant to preserve normalcy and white heteronormativity and all of this other crap.
joe rogan
That's why the term minor attracted persons freaks me the fuck out.
When you're trying to normalize pedophilia, you're trying to normalize people who want to fuck kids.
That's crazy.
And by the way, it's almost always men.
You are empowering the creepiest of creeps.
james lindsay
The creepy creeps.
joe rogan
The monsters of the male species.
If you want to talk about men, like men being toxic, the most toxic...
Yeah.
You're empowering the evil ones, the ones infected by demons that want them to go fuck kids.
You're empowering them by telling them that it's an identity?
james lindsay
Yeah.
And I'll tell you, queer theory doesn't not have limiting principles.
It's opposed to limiting principles on principle.
Let me give you another definition.
This is a book called St. Foucault, naming the Michel Foucault, the postmodern guy we made fun of back in the Grievance Studies papers.
And so Michel Foucault is lionized in this book.
And this is the book where queer and queer theory gets defined.
David Halperin wrote it.
Ninety-five is the date.
And it's right there in the paragraph that he writes, defining queer.
It starts with these three words, unlike gay identity, has virtually nothing to do with gay people.
Why?
He says because that's rooted in a positive truth.
You're gay, right?
That's a truth.
You're gay.
He says queer need not be grounded, he says, in any positive truth or any stable reality, it is whatever is opposed to the normal, the legitimate, and the dominant.
joe rogan
What?
james lindsay
So normal and legitimate.
I mean, they're always after the dominant, so we can just...
joe rogan
But isn't that local?
Because, like, if you're in West Hollywood, the dominant is gay.
james lindsay
Well, they don't want...
They don't like that either.
It's not about gay.
joe rogan
So you'd have to be opposed to the gay.
You'd be straight.
james lindsay
They literally...
I hate using huge words on shows.
It's homonormativity is what they call that.
If you consider being gay normal as a normal part of society, that's homonormativity.
It's as bad as heteronormativity.
It's no better.
Because, again, it's real simple.
We said it earlier.
Stability repels revolutions.
They need radical people.
They need queer activists who want to destabilize the normal and undermine the legitimate at every turn.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
james lindsay
And that – like I don't have to have a tinfoil hat for this.
We can just crumple that up and throw it in the trash.
This is black and white in their literature.
This is what they're like, hey, look what we're going to do.
Let's protect the boy lovers.
Gail Rubin, 1984. You want the citation?
These people are dead serious.
And they are opposed to the idea.
So this started by me saying they're opposed to limiting principles on principle.
What does that mean?
It means at some point somebody's going to say, you know what, you want to hump kids?
No.
That's a limiting principle.
We draw the line at kids.
That's a limiting principle.
They're opposed actually to anything that tells them no.
Anything in the world, including the world itself.
Telling them no.
Oh yeah, you technically can't be a man who becomes a woman, but let's just chop you up until you're close enough.
The world's telling you no, but we're going to keep doing surgeries and hormones until it's kind of like yes.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
james lindsay
Dude, I know you're probably not the biggest fan of Charlie Kirk, but I was on stage with Charlie Kirk talking about this.
He wanted to talk about critical race theory with me, and I'm like, damn it, Charlie.
I'm getting frustrated sitting there.
joe rogan
Why would you say I'm not the biggest fan of Charlie Kirk?
james lindsay
I don't know.
Maybe you are.
joe rogan
I think he's very smart.
james lindsay
He's freaking smart.
Nobody gives him credit for that.
joe rogan
No, because they associate him with the white nationalist sort of right wing.
He's a different guy.
james lindsay
He is quick.
joe rogan
He's not who they label him to be.
He's very smart.
james lindsay
He's very, very smart.
And so Charlie and I were sitting on stage, and I'm getting pissed at him, right?
Because it's like, I don't want to talk about critical race theory again.
And so I'm like, okay, Charlie, we need to talk about queer theory.
He's like, what's queer theory?
And I kind of explained the normal thing.
And he's like, whoa.
He didn't swear because he's a good Christian boy.
But I'm like, Charlie, let's put it real simple.
Queer theory opens the gates to hell.
And I think that that's like the best way to put it.
This stuff they're pushing on the kids opens the gates to hell.
Of course, this is why I'm in trouble because I started saying OK Groomer.
You know, I got kicked off Twitter for OK Groomer for like five months until Elon brought me back.
Thanks, Elon.
But why was I calling them groomers?
I get challenged on this.
People drag me in these interviews.
Well, you were part of that groomer thing.
Well, there's a paper that they wrote.
Everything I do is I read their stuff and I said something and people are like, that can't be real.
It turns out it is.
And so this paper is the Drag Queen Story Hour paper.
It's called Drag Pedagogy.
It's free access.
You can go look it up.
The title is Drag Pedagogy.
Read it for yourself.
It's written by a drag queen named Lil Miss Hot Mess.
And a trans educator named Harper Keenan came out in Curriculum Inquiry, which is a serious academic journal in curriculum for schools.
And at the end, they say that they're talking about the family-friendly aspect, the branding, that it's family-friendly.
And what they say is that it's not so much that family-friendly is to sanitize drag.
That's not what it is.
It's actually—and this is their exact word.
So I ask people when they challenge me on this, what word do I use for this?
They say it is a preparatory introduction to alternate modes of kinship.
That's a direct quote.
joe rogan
Then they say— A preparative introduction to alternate modes of kinship?
james lindsay
Yeah.
I don't know if you want to get that pulled up and on screen and show it, but it's for real.
The paper's called Drag Pedagogy.
It's easy to find.
It's the first paragraph in the conclusion if you need to scroll.
Then it goes on to say that the family in Family Friendly actually refers to a queer code for the queer family you meet on the street.
Their words.
I'm not exaggerating.
joe rogan
The queer community.
james lindsay
You abandon your real family for a queer family.
The last sentence in the paper says that they're going to leave a trail of glitter that will never come out of the carpet.
You know I'm funny and I could make stuff up.
I didn't make this up.
So these guys are like, you can't say, okay, groomer.
And I'm like, what word do I use for that?
And I've yet to have somebody tell me what word is better.
Of course that's the word for that.
Alternate mode of kinship?
dr james lindsey
And they say it's all about queer world-making.
james lindsay
Same paragraph.
Queer world-making has always been a project based in desire.
joe rogan
So for them, let's try to steel man this.
Imagine if you're a gay person and you were picked on in school, you always felt...
There was no one that was there that you could turn to that could say, hey, it's okay.
You're just gay.
And, you know, these kids are cruel.
But the reality is there's a beautiful gay community that will accept you.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
And to tell other kids, hey, this is just how this kid is born.
And this is picking on him for that is no different than picking on someone for their skin color or where they're from.
It's all gross.
Don't do it.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
And you could look at it that way.
They wish that there was a path for someone like them.
james lindsay
Yeah, I have three actual responses to that.
So first, we're not talking about sitting down and having the hey buddy talk with your kid who just did a jerk thing.
We're talking about drag queens in a classroom, which is a little bit more.
Which they call, in fact, a generative introduction to queer world-making in the paper, which is pretty insane.
But secondly, in the paper, the immediate section before the conclusion, the last section before the conclusion, so right before what I just told you, there's a section titled, From Empathy to Embodied Kinship.
That's their title for it.
That's the title of the thing.
And they explain that this empathy root is a marketing strategy.
They use that for marketing to justify its inclusion, but its real purpose is to lead children to discover queer aspects of themselves.
So that's not what they're doing it for.
That's not the purpose.
So there must be another purpose.
And what's the other purpose?
I think it's a cult initiation ritual.
I think the point of the drag queen is to get the kids, exactly what they say in the paper, start asking questions.
Why is that man dressed as a woman?
Do we always have to follow rules?
Can we do whatever we want?
Isn't this more fun?
And they start asking the questions and having the conversation, and then the kids who show interest end up going off into...
You know, the club after school where they get affirmed.
And I think that's where the cult initiation is going on.
And I'm dead serious.
I think the Drag Queen Story Hour was a cult initiation ritual for queer activism for our kids.
But then let's do the medical approach.
And I'm not talking about – you know, I got a PhD in math.
That was my background.
And so one of the things that I was shocked when I was learning math back in the 20 years ago was here's a question for you.
Just ask.
Do you know why we don't do universal cancer screenings?
Why everybody doesn't go to the doctor every year?
Because, of course, they'd be able to make buku bucks off this.
Right.
So wouldn't it be good if we did universal cancer screenings?
Everybody goes.
They get the check, whatever it is, universal mammograms, whatever it happens to be.
There's a reason.
There are a few reasons we don't do that.
It's the same reason, sort of, that we don't just give everybody, say, Ritalin because some kids have ADHD.
But what it is is that if we tested everybody for cancer, that test has a false positive and a true positive and a false negative and a true negative rate.
Those are called the specificity and sensitivity of the test.
And if we screen everybody, what happens is you actually end up with way more false positives because there are way more healthy people than sick people, and the sum percentage of them turns out to be a far larger number.
So that if you do that, what you end up doing is telling thousands of people per year that they have cancer when they don't.
Freaking them out, causing them to rearrange their lives, plus it's expensive, and then some of them will have a false positive twice.
And then depending on the specificity and sensitivity of the test, it can be almost three times before you hit 50-50 as to whether you got a positive test.
So imagine you go and you get tested for cancer, screened for cancer, and it says you have cancer.
And then you get tested for cancer again and it says you have cancer.
And you go a third time and you have cancer, but you only have a 50-50 shot of actually having cancer because of the way the populations break down.
You're going to be shitting your pants.
You're going to rearrange your life.
You're going to make some bad decisions.
So what don't you do in the schools?
You don't assume that a large population of the children are gay kids who are getting bullied and treat the entire population of school kids like they're gay kids who are being bullied.
You figure out when somebody's being bullied and you deal with the person individually and you figure out when somebody's doing the bullying and you deal with the people individually.
And we've known this since time immemorial until...
In my opinion, we've reinvented our policies in the schools to do this broad cult initiation.
We treat everybody like they're sick, which is exactly the opposite.
So there's the paper itself lying about it.
There's the logical understanding of it.
But then there's also you don't broadcast or universally screen to deal with low propensity sicknesses.
unidentified
It's just a terrible idea.
joe rogan
Well, that's very logical.
james lindsay
It turns out it was from PhD math program, so the logic is strong there.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
james lindsay
Yeah, because that was when I was getting prepped to teach statistics and it's like these are the things you want to teach people in a statistics class so they don't go make dumbass decisions because they don't understand how numbers work.
joe rogan
There's also this issue with the influence that people have on kids just in general.
We're so flippant about who teaches kids.
And it should be a really difficult job to get, and it should pay really well.
And it's almost, if you wanted to go full tinfoil hat again, you would think, by design, you would want the least motivated, weirdest fucking shitheads to be teaching your kids.
Because you would ensure that their education would suck.
And especially if those kids, if those people, if you push the type of people to teach that were a part of this ideology that you're trying to push...
Well, these people aren't doing well anyway, for the most part.
They're not super financially successful if they're looking to push these agendas.
In general, they're not really excellent capitalists.
So you could probably pay them less.
And you can get these people.
They want that job because they think they're a part of a movement.
james lindsay
That's right.
Something has been going on for a very long time.
There's a couple of explanations.
One thing to say is even without the tinfoil hat, right, queer theory in its own – imagine that you have the hiring body, the administration at the school gets infected with queer theory.
Oh, well, I don't want to – that guy might like kids, but I don't want to assume, right?
I don't want to judge him.
It lowers the potential to say, wait a minute, bringing in this weirdo who's throwing off red flags everywhere might be a bad idea.
Or in this case, I guess rainbow flags with the triangle cut out of it.
That might be a bad idea, right?
Queer theory overrides your common sense.
So it lowers the screening potential.
It just makes the whole – it's like the fence is wider open.
So good people will make more mistakes when queer theory has come in.
But then there's the fact that this actually was – a lot of people don't understand.
We don't need a tinfoil hat to understand that the universities are fucked up.
Nobody does.
Look at them.
Holy shit.
Harvard, let's name some more universities.
They're all messed up.
And the fact is there's – I know I keep throwing out sources, but there's this book I read.
It's called The Critical Turn in Education.
It was published by a Marxist at Iowa State University named Isaac Gottesman in 2016, 15, one or the other.
And right from the beginning, one of the things he's explaining is that people with their ideology of education, which is called critical pedagogy, Actually had captured our schools of education virtually entirely by 1992. That's the date the Marxists themselves say this is when we got the schools of education.
So I tried to explain this in this documentary that I've got coming out in May called Beneath Sheep's Clothing, and it's very simple.
If you get the colleges of education, then you're going to get the teachers.
And if you get the teachers, then you get the kids.
And if you get the kids in a generational strategy, you get the future.
And that was – they own the schools.
Like they own the manufacturing plant where we build teachers and administrators.
They're called colleges of education.
They have a virtual monopoly on producing them and they have said in their own words that their ideology has run the schools since 1992.
That's – if we're keeping track on our fingers, 32 years ago.
joe rogan
Well, this is what Yuri Besbinov talked about in the 80s.
unidentified
Exactly.
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
Yeah, it's like I say what I just said and then Yuri in the trailer to that film, which is at the top of my Twitter, if anybody wants to see it.
joe rogan
Let's see it.
james lindsay
We go back and forth.
Yeah, it's like right at the top after my cool book.
joe rogan
Let's see the trailer.
When does this come out?
james lindsay
End of May.
joe rogan
Most people are blissfully unaware that all this is going on.
james lindsay
That's why I'm writing books and making movies where I could be going out and, like, enjoying my life.
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
Like, I do like traveling around.
I like getting to meet people.
I've got, like, one of my, you know, I don't know if you know who Tiffany Justice is with Moms for Liberty.
joe rogan
No, well, yeah.
james lindsay
But she says all the time, who knew we were going to make so many cool friends in our 40s?
joe rogan
Right.
Is this the trailer right here?
james lindsay
Yeah, with the blonde lady.
That's Julie Beeling.
she wrote the book it's based on.
Even in the future, nothing works.
joe rogan
We'll see here.
It's spinning.
james lindsay
Oh, did I post it twice?
I'm an idiot.
unidentified
Here's the thing about communism.
When it comes knocking at your door, it doesn't say, hi, I'm here to impoverish, enslave, and murder you.
It says, I'm here to liberate you from oppression.
I thought of myself as a happy kid.
I had no idea that I was being brainwashed.
That's right.
All of them is infiltrated.
james lindsay
This was a rape of the body of Christ.
You take over the colleges of education, then you take over all the teachers, then you take over all the students, and thus you get the future.
alex newman
He said the ultimate objective of having government school was to destroy Christianity.
james lindsay
Those were his words.
unidentified
People's war means to destroy the opposing country through unconventional methods.
james lindsay
And Khrushchev bragged about it.
We'll take America without firing a shot.
yuri bezmenov
In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of American students without being challenged.
unidentified
The result?
The result you can see.
That looks good.
joe rogan
What is that going to be on?
james lindsay
It's got a deal with Rumble, so it's primarily going to be on Rumble, and we'll spread it from there.
joe rogan
I was going to ask, it must be exclusively on Rumble.
dr james lindsey
I don't know that it's totally exclusive, because we're talking about...
joe rogan
Can YouTube host something like that?
james lindsay
Well, I hope so.
joe rogan
Would you get demonetized, do you think?
james lindsay
Well, you know, let me just tell YouTube what I think about that.
I hope we do.
I hope we can put it on YouTube, and I hope we get demonetized, and we'll put up a YouTube edit where we literally just, like, put up the YouTube emblem over the scenes they don't want shown and do the Charlie Brown want, want, want, want, want, want voice to the part of the people they don't want to hear.
And we'll put up a YouTube edit with a link to send people to the real thing.
Like, to hell with them.
Like, we can get around this censorship and turn it to our advantage these days.
joe rogan
It's very bizarre that they would choose to demonetize something that someone's legitimate opinion about a very worrisome trend.
This is something that people should discuss.
And to be able to discuss these things, especially in this wonderful world of open communication that we find ourselves in, You should be able to have both perspectives.
You should have the perspective of the queer theorists.
james lindsay
That's right.
joe rogan
And you should have the perspective of the people who say, this is where all this comes from.
james lindsay
That's right.
joe rogan
And if you don't do that, then you limit information.
And some of that information, especially the stuff that you're talking about that seems to be absolutely true and provable, you're letting that stuff go through because it opposes your ideology, and that, by definition, makes you a cult member.
james lindsay
Exactly, right?
So the cult—I don't know if you know who Robert Lifton is.
Robert Lifton, he's kind of weird now.
He's still alive, but he was like a—you talk about gangsters doing infiltration.
This dude was in Hong Kong in the 1950s, and he started interviewing guys that were going through Mao Zedong's brainwashing prisons.
And then when they would get thrown out of China after they'd get out of the prison after three, four years of getting brainwashed, he started interviewing them.
Like, what did Mao do?
How did he, like— Literally, the title of his book that he wrote off of this is called Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, a Study of Brainwashing in China, which is Xi now in Mandarin.
I know a little Mandarin.
And so the idea is that they were doing what Mao called ideological transformation or ideological remolding in these prisons.
And he wanted to know how it worked.
What's the psychological dynamic?
And he said there are eight primary characteristics.
And God only knows if I could rattle off eight things from memory.
But the first one is milieu control.
In other words, you have to completely control the environment of the people that are within it.
And so you can't let them have outside information.
You can't let them get near people who are raising uncomfortable questions.
You have to say that those people are a danger to what Mao called democratic centralism or we would say Joe Rogan is a danger to our democracy.
I think they said when you took ivermectin or something like that.
Right?
And so you have to control the environment people are in, and then there's other things like mystical manipulation into a sacred science and all this other – there's eight of them he has, which is finally at the end, which – it's got doctrine over person, but he calls it like the expiration – it's not the right word, but it's the dispensing of the person.
So the people who go along with it who are in the cult are treated as people, and the people who don't go along with it Have to be treated as non-people.
And that's based – Mao Zedong gave a famous speech in 1957 where he actually said to not have a correct political orientation is like not having a soul.
So you're no better than – well, a capitalist running dogs.
You're no better than the dogs.
Well, I mean we like dogs, but you know what I mean?
He would have meant it.
So it's like you're no better than an animal if you don't go along with this.
And that's what you're saying.
That's a cult.
unidentified
Yeah.
james lindsay
And all this bears the hallmarks of a cult.
joe rogan
And it feels like that is a natural pattern that humans fall into.
And I think particularly if you're not religious.
I think one of the things about religious people is they've already got their thing.
And hopefully it's one that promotes good values and it's a good thing.
But there's a part in the brain that wants that thing.
And atheists They don't have a religion, and so they find a social religion.
james lindsay
A social religion, that's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
So they find it in their social circumstances, politics, economics, and it always goes demonic when they do that.
I've been spending a lot of time, thanks to Charlie, primarily, Charlie Kirk, I've been spending a lot of time paying attention to the tenets of Christianity and studying it, and it's got a lot of good advice in there.
But you're 100% right that if you...
If you try to lack a religion, and the primary thing with a religion, if you lack a religion, then it'll get filled in with other things for very many people.
I think there's a small percentage of people for maybe that doesn't apply, but...
joe rogan
There's a spot in your brain for it.
james lindsay
But the thing that...
Why do they go after Christians and Jews so hard everywhere they go?
And the reason is because they are completely committed to...
They're not...
When you say, you know, they already have their thing...
For Christians and Jews, that's not how they think about God.
It's not their thing.
That's something that's above everything else.
joe rogan
Well, the Muslims as well.
james lindsay
Well, Muslims too.
But Muslims – Islam is a little bit different because it's got a political element worked into it.
And I'm not trying to like throw shade.
I'm just saying that with all – there is no – the state is never above God in Christianity and Judaism, ever.
The state and God are somewhat intertwined or can be in Islam, but it's not – so they're not quite identical.
But it's true.
God is above state, no question.
So when the state shows up and says to you, hey, you're going to do X, Y, Z or else, and it goes against your religion.
If you're a Christian, a Jew, and to many – if it's not Islam, a Muslim, you're going to say, no, I have a higher duty, and it's not to the state.
And if you kill me, I'm going to a better place so I don't care.
And that's the enemy of totalitarianism in a way that nothing else is.
The Confucian virtues of China don't have that.
Buddhism actually kind of doesn't have that.
joe rogan
Trevor Burrus Well, you can't tell the CIA this because then they're going to co-opt the churches.
james lindsay
Well, that's what the documentary is actually about is how the co-opting of the churches took place in the Soviet Union actually.
And so – and then how – OK. So you put it on the table.
I think that's what this whole stupid Christian nationalism thing.
I think that's part of the purpose of the Christian nationalist dialogue.
I'm not exactly a Christian nationalist.
I'm probably one of his most vocal opponents.
joe rogan
Trevor Burrus You think it's like agent provocateurs?
james lindsay
That's right.
I think that they want to recreate something that looks like Charlotteville, you know, the very fine people on both sides incident.
Or like January 6th, they get somebody to do something stupid or violent, or maybe they just run a narrative.
joe rogan
Well, there's always been people that when they see these well-uniformed people walking around with Nazi flags with their face covered, they're like, they're feds.
People always think that.
They always think that, which is a terrible thing to think, that your own federal government is involved in doing something to stir Right.
is being stirred, and then connect that racial hatred with people that just don't believe what you believe and believe in God.
unidentified
Right.
james lindsay
And that's why this Christian nationalist thing, it's a leap that's not very far in most minds from Christian nationalist to white Christian nationalist.
joe rogan
Right.
james lindsay
And it's so easy for them to say then that independent conservative churches, and I would say those in particular, are a hothouse for domestic extremism.
And then they start cracking down on that.
Maybe it's the FBI agents are going to church every week and they're writing down every single thing you say or every single thing you do.
Maybe it's that they start messing with the IRS status.
Maybe it's that they create other pressures with zoning or whatever else to make it so that independent churches are very difficult to do.
Because what they had in the Soviet Union, and I learned it, I actually didn't know it until the Timothy guy, the The Russian guy in the film was telling us they had what's called a registered church in the Soviet Union.
So the Soviets didn't get rid of the churches.
The Soviets created a fake church that was like Lenin, Stalin, Jesus.
They have a church in China.
It's called the Three Selfs Church right now where it's like if you see pictures of it, it's super weird.
It's like there's a cross and there's like Mao and it's like President Xi.
And it's like, what am I looking?
It's so weird.
joe rogan
What is it called?
The Three What?
james lindsay
Three Selfs Church or Three Self Church.
I'd have to remember if there's an S in it.
joe rogan
Oh, I need to see this.
james lindsay
And so they have a fake church and they funnel people into it and then they persecute everybody that's got religion outside of the fake church.
And that was really the impetus for making the film.
And we said, well, we've got to talk about the schools too.
Well, is that – what's fueling the Uyghur Muslim thing where they're – Well, communists don't like competing religions.
So they also do like slave labor and they like making examples of people to keep things under control.
So if we just take it at face value that the C in the CCP stands for communist, this is perfectly in line with the way communists behave.
That's what they would do with the Christian dissidents in the Soviet Union.
They send them to gulags where their job would be like to carve a canal out of bedrock, working themselves to death in freezing conditions.
And then only for not only the canal to not actually be deep enough or wide enough to do what it had to do.
So it's demoralizing.
It failed.
But then it drains whichever – I forget which lake it was.
Aral Sea or whatever gets drained because they're idiots and they don't know how things work.
They think that they can be the masters of nature.
But that's what they would do.
They would round up these – These dissidents and send them off to Gulag.
Gulag wasn't a concentration camp like the Nazis had.
It was a re-education camp where they were trying to re-educate you through doctrine combined with hard labor.
And if you died, you died.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
Yeah.
james lindsay
And that's where communism leads to kids that and that's where communism leads to.
And that's why other places, too.
So here's what you want to you know who I feel bad for.
And they get real mad.
I did this at Northwestern.
I told them this to their faces.
I did a talk at Northwestern University last year and they let a bunch of woke protesters in and they carried on and yelled at me and like we're like mocking me doing the loser sign on their faces while I was talking.
joe rogan
That's really effective.
james lindsay
It's hard to keep your train of thought while that's going on.
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
And they started cheering when I started talking about Mao so they know what it is.
And I was like, cheer for your dictator.
And they started clapping and it was like really creepy.
But then – so I did this at Northwestern and I told them something and they laughed at me.
But okay – So Mao created in the mid-1960s a thing called the Red Guard.
People all know about this.
It was young people.
It was mostly college and high school students, but it went down to little kids.
Xi Van Fleet was in China during the Red Guard, for example, and she's got that book Mao's America out talking about what that was like surviving that.
And the Red Guard went around, destroyed property, harassed, turned in people.
They ended up rounding up the sitting president of the CCP, Lu Xiaoqi, pulled him out.
He humiliated him, kicked him out to the countryside to die, right?
He came out.
He said – he's the chairman of the CCP. He comes out.
He says, am I not a citizen?
Can I not speak?
And these teenagers by the thousands were out there protesting him and said, no, you're not a citizen.
You're not a person.
You cannot speak.
And they ended up carting him off to die in the countryside.
Mao takes his power back.
So that's the end of 1967. It took about a year and a half.
So as soon as Mao gets back on the throne, we turn around in 1968, what does he do with that Red Guard that was so loyal that God admit?
Did he give him trophies?
Does he give him a spot in the party?
No.
He said the Red Guard has become too radical and too left.
So he rounded him up and sent him off to the Gulag to die.
And some of them were so brainwashed, they said shit like, going to work with the peasants in the fields will make my brain even more red as they got on the trains.
So I told these kids at Northwestern, I said, listen, You woke kids.
Cheer all you want for Mao.
This is your future.
Stability is what repels revolutions.
So if they need destabilizing forces now, that's you.
But once they destabilize things enough to take power, that's, as Mao phrased it, that's a new phase of the revolution.
That's called building socialism.
They don't need destabilizers anymore.
They got to get rid of you.
And I'm like, if you win, you get your revolution, you lose.
And I feel bad.
I honestly, I mean, I talk big, but I feel bad for these kids that got caught up in this.
Because if I'm not, if I'm right, that's their future.
It's probably a digital gulag, not a physical gulag.
Maybe they're going to have to go farm corn or something, but probably they're going to have to sit in their apartment.
It's like 200 square feet with their Oculus on, pretending that they're going nice places, as long as they fill out enough surveys to give data so that whatever the data machine is can collect the data that justifies that and sell their by participating zero in real life.
They build up carbon credits that the rich people can buy because this whole fake carbon economy or sustainable economy that they're trying to build around it.
I think that's really...
I legit think that that's these kids' future.
They go woke, they break themselves, they go in service of revolution, and then the revolution turns around and eats them too.
Snake eating its own tail.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
james lindsay
And I'm like, I wish I could wake them up, but man, they're in a cult.
I seriously think they're disposable.
joe rogan
Enough people are going to hear what you're saying that it's going to cause a stir, and then more people are going to share it and be aware of it.
And that'll help some.
But the problem is there's not many people like you out there that are saying this in an articulate and very well-informed way where it resonates with people.
And they realize like, oh, this is what's going on.
I think I'm just trying to be a good person.
I think I'm trying to be open-minded.
I think I'm trying to be kind and compassionate.
And really, I'm in a cult.
james lindsay
I mean I've had it happen.
I've had it happen.
I had this one young lady at one point reach out to me and say something I said made her so mad that she went and she like blocked me on social media and then she went and spent months trying to prove that I was wrong and then ended up concluding that I was right and it de-radicalized her.
joe rogan
Well, the problem is people are so married to their ideas that it's almost impossible for them to look at something that is opposed to it without being angry at it or trying to pick holes at it.
Instead of just, like, objectively trying to analyze, like, is this possible that this is true?
And isn't it something that governments and dictators and kings have done throughout history?
Haven't they done things in order to initiate more power?
Haven't they had false flags?
Haven't they created conflict that wasn't real in order for them to gain more power or start wars?
Yeah, they have.
What makes us think they don't do that anymore?
And if you're doing it in this digital battlefield that we're all currently involved in, that's what you would use.
You would use social media platforms and you would control them like the FBI was trying to control Twitter.
They were infiltrating Social media organizations to suppress legitimate opinions and thoughts of actual experts.
james lindsay
Yeah, for sure.
joe rogan
And they were doing that at the behest of the government, which is fucking terrifying.
james lindsay
Yeah, and illegal.
But they found workarounds and, you know, this is a huge, huge risk.
But, I mean, look for these kids or whatever.
Like, let's look at three populations and say that maybe this will wake somebody up.
How are they going to treat you?
So the three populations are the revolutionaries themselves, the communists.
We'll just look historically and then, say, American classical liberals, right, and then Christians.
So what's going to happen?
So you go woke, right, and you're in this and then the revolution succeeds.
What have communists always historically done?
They always eat their own.
Yuri Beznamov says that too, right?
He says, don't deal with those political prostitutes.
They know too much.
We'll line them up against the wall and shoot them.
That's what he says.
Your chances are bad at best under the revolution.
What are good old Americans going to do if you come out of being woke?
Actually, we don't have to talk about the revolution.
What are other woke people going to do to you if you stop being woke?
They're going to treat you like a traitor.
They're going to hate you.
They're going to destroy your social life, maybe your professional life.
What are normal Americans going to do?
Like, cool, you do you, right?
Live your life.
Glad that you got that sorted out.
And what are Christians going to do?
I forgive you.
That's literally their religion.
I forgive you.
If you repent, come join our church if you want to.
If you don't, I understand.
You're welcome.
No big deal.
Like, if there are Christians who are Christians, I mean, I know that there's these Christian fascist dudes who are thinking they can pound their chest and, like, be big tough guys.
But even the other Christians are like that's not biblically sound.
Like Jesus didn't do that.
So it's like the woke are going to treat you like crap if you leave.
So you're locked in.
If you come over and be an American, again, just a normal American dude, we're going to be like, cool, welcome back.
And the Christians are, if you go and, like, repent of your errors or whatever and you decide to convert, are going to be like, they're going to celebrate you.
They're going to be like, praise God.
It's night and day different.
So revolutionaries destroy their own, and everybody else, like you're saying, like, just normal people who value, like, what productive thing can you do?
Love you.
Great.
Welcome.
Are completely the other story.
joe rogan
Well, that's an ideology to live your life by.
The problem is if that ideology gets manipulated by the people in power as well, it's all dangerous.
It's all dangerous because it's just what human beings do when they get into power.
And if there was a radical right-wing religious sect that was in control of this country, we'd be just as scared as if there's a radical left-wing Progressive, woke organization like there is currently.
james lindsay
Joe, that's the history of the 1930s right there in Europe.
You had the communists who were screwing everything up and everybody was scared of the radical left.
And what was their answer was fascism.
I read all this Mussolini a couple of months ago.
I was like, well, I better read the other side.
And I'm like, this guy, he's supposed to be the answer, but he's making an idol of the state.
Like the state is God in both situations.
And who are you?
You're a subject is who you are.
joe rogan
Yeah.
You know, my friend Duncan Trussell, when the George Floyd riots were happening in California, he was like, dude, we're going to get a radical right wing president.
That was his thought.
It's like, this is what's scary to me.
james lindsay
That's scary to me, too.
joe rogan
When Christians, the really crazy ones that you're talking about that don't represent the actual teachings of Christ, when those people think that there's like a holy war that they're a part of, and that they have to oppose all the other people, and they're the ones who get to enforce the rules, and they're the ones who get to enforce what people say and can't do, and if you say, God damn it, you go to jail for a year, that kind of shit's real.
james lindsay
It is.
joe rogan
And that's what you see in some countries that have radical Islam.
That's what you see in some countries that Aren't open societies, air quotes.
james lindsay
Well, I mean legitimately ones, not George Soros' weird fantasy about it.
So it's like that's so important for people to understand because the line – Solzhenitsyn said the line of good and evil cuts through every human heart, but so does the line of tyranny.
then people who are afraid or they're angry or they feel like they've been robbed or cheated or oppressed can be radicalized really easily and become very angry.
joe rogan
Like Germans during World War II.
james lindsay
Right.
And what a lot of people need to understand is that if we put our tinfoil hat back on and we believe that there are people pulling strings, I promise you they do not care whether a radical left or a radical right breaks the Constitution as long as the Constitution gets broken.
joe rogan
Well, especially if you can get the radical left to behave in a way that was completely opposed to what the radical left was like 20 years ago.
The full trust of the pharmaceutical drug companies, support of the military industrial complex, support of international wars, as long as they're being supported by the Democrats.
james lindsay
Huge banks.
It's like, I'm sure Larry Fink has best of intentions, you know?
It's like, what are you talking...
joe rogan
Was Larry Fink...
No, Larry Silverstein was the guy who owned the big conspiracy theory about World Trade Center, Tower 7. Oh, yeah, something like that.
james lindsay
No, Larry Fink owns BlackRock.
joe rogan
Right, that's right.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
I get my Larrys confused.
unidentified
Yeah, well, there's a lot of Larrys.
joe rogan
The idea that we could live in this world where if this stuff takes over, that eventually they don't come for you is so silly.
They eat their own.
It keeps going further and further down what you thought was acceptable.
And it changes the norms.
And it just keeps going.
james lindsay
It's just like with ESG. They can change the rules tomorrow.
The real danger of ESG isn't that it's stupid and that it's control.
It's that it's arbitrary.
Somebody in some room, maybe it's Larry Fink, maybe he's got a little committee, I don't know, gets to decide that today Elon Musk is OK with ESG and then tomorrow he bought Twitter and is for free speech and now he's not OK with ESG.
Or that Halliburton is bad and now it's good.
Like overnight, somebody gets to decide.
So maybe what, you know, the WHO treaty, we stopped talking about the WHO and I should talk about that.
There in May, at the end of May, they are, the WHO is meeting, it's some kind of an assembly, and they are deciding upon whether or not the WHO will have total, they just screwed up one pandemic, and now they say that they need to have total control of pandemic preparedness and public health.
But the thing is, it's not even just about diseases, right?
Because we know about, like, they screwed up COVID. It was total global tyranny.
Imagine if they had the power where there is no Florida.
There's no free state.
There's no difference between Texas and California.
It's all whatever the World Health Organization says.
There's no difference between Florida and Canada.
Or there's no Sweden, which, you know, did something different.
Everything has to be on the same page.
But then they go further and they declare other things matters of public health.
Like gun violence is a public health threat, racial injustice, inadequate food systems.
It's literally a recipe for them to be able to declare total tyranny, but particularly over matters, anything that they can skew as a public health.
And so one of the things that they consider to be another kind of pandemic that's a public health risk is misinformation and disinformation.
So it explicitly calls for censorship of what would be misinformation and disinformation.
So now all of these 193 or whatever it is countries are supposed to sign over to the World Health Organization the ability through a treaty that's I'm not being ratified in the Senate like a treaty.
Probably Joe Biden will do it as an executive agreement rather than as passing two-thirds majority in the Senate.
So we have this treaty now that hands over the control of the states and of the United States as a federal entity to the World Health Organization, which is led by – I mean Tedros is openly a Marxist, so like what the hell is going on with that?
Where they have this total blanket control over anything they can declare public health, including misinformation and disinformation.
One of the things they say, and I don't know if it's in the proposal or if it's in the documentation around it, is that we have a pandemic of too much information.
We have to limit how much information that people actually are getting.
And this is like – that's like living in China.
joe rogan
This is proposed.
Has any country signed off on this?
james lindsay
I think Canada is like already gung-ho on it.
But I think the – I don't know exactly how it works.
But I think the meeting is at the end of May and there is no full signing off until the meeting at the end of May.
So we got like 11 weeks to – for example, if we could get – just make it through whatever congress or whatever apparatuses where it has to be ratified in the United States as a treaty according to the constitution, it's dead in the water for the US because the United States – two-thirds of the senators are not going to go for this unless we're in a lot bigger trouble than I think we are.
50-50 would.
joe rogan
Who the fuck is going to go for that?
james lindsay
Joe Biden.
joe rogan
Or whoever tells Joe Biden what to go for.
james lindsay
Yeah, whoever gives Joe Biden his shots.
joe rogan
What do you think cocktail they got him on when he goes and gives those speeches?
james lindsay
I don't know, but it's got to be something good.
joe rogan
I want to know.
I really want to know.
I want to know what he's doing.
james lindsay
Dude, I'm barely catching up to you on baby IVs of NAD+. I'm not ready for these cocktails.
joe rogan
Well, I mean, whatever they give him...
It must be extraordinary because you could tell he's ramped up.
james lindsay
Oh, yeah, totally ramped up.
joe rogan
Yeah, he's ramped up.
james lindsay
And otherwise doesn't know where he is.
It's so strange.
It's one of my favorite – you know, Trump, whatever else, he's funny.
One of the favorite things – no, maybe not.
But top five favorite things he ever said was – he was in an interview and they said, well, what do you think Joe Biden thinks?
And he said, Joe Biden doesn't know he's alive on TV. It was the funniest thing.
joe rogan
Oh, Trump's hilarious.
He does speeches and he does stand-up in them.
Where he did, like, his impression of Joe Biden not knowing where to go?
Have you seen that?
james lindsay
No.
joe rogan
You gotta see this bit.
Because I swear to God, it's like a fucking comic.
He's doing this impression of Joe Biden.
He always does this thing.
He always does this thing.
Like, you watch him, you're like, the guy's a comic.
james lindsay
He's hilarious.
joe rogan
Well, he's been on TV forever.
He knows how to shoot back.
He knows how to talk shit.
He knows zingers.
He knows how to work a crowd.
So you think about it.
If he is a smart man, regardless of what you think about him, you gotta realize the guy's been very successful, right?
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
Don't lie.
So this guy has also hosted The Apprentice forever.
He's been on television forever.
And then he goes on tour.
So he starts doing stand-up essentially for four years.
He's been doing stand-up without the job as the president, or at least three years.
And then before that, there was four years during the time he was president, he's kind of doing stand-up.
And then before that, it's a year and a half that he's running for president that he's kind of doing stand-up.
So you've basically got a guy, he's been doing stand-up for nine years.
Put this on.
Put it on for the beginning.
donald j trump
But if I walk left, there's a stair.
And if I walk right, there's a stair.
And this guy gets up.
unidentified
Where am I?
I mean, he's fucking doing stand-up.
Where the hell am I?
donald j trump
So now new records are being set.
Gavin has become crooked Joe Biden's top surrogate, I think, because he doesn't think Biden's going to make it.
That's why he's doing it.
He doesn't think he's going to make it, and it won't be him so easy.
He's going to have a big fight.
However, because there will be a lot of Democrats competing, it's going to be very interesting.
But let's see.
Look, some people say Biden's going to make it.
Does anybody think he's going to make it to the starting gate?
I mean, the guy can't find his way off of a stage.
Look, here's the stage.
joe rogan
But it goes a little further than that.
donald j trump
I've never seen this stupid stage before, right?
I've never seen it.
But if I walk left, there's a stair.
And if I walk right, there's a stair.
And this guy gets up.
unidentified
Where am I? Where the hell am I? Where am I? Nah, he's terrible.
donald j trump
You know, I'm much tougher on him than I used to be.
Out of respect for the office, I was never like.
He's the most corrupt president, the most incompetent president we've ever had.
But when they indicted me, and then again and again and again, I was never indicted.
Now I'm setting records.
Al Capone!
Was not indicted so much.
Alphonse Capote.
unidentified
If you looked at Al Capone in the wrong way, he'd kill you.
donald j trump
He was not indicted like me.
I was never indicted.
I didn't know.
When they taught me at the Wharton School of Finance, they didn't talk about indictment.
No, it's a disgrace what's happening.
They've weaponized elections.
They've done everything.
I mean, these are very bad people.
But I used to talk relatively nicely about them.
I wouldn't go out of my way.
I wouldn't say the things I say now.
Now I'm just all in because these people are bad and they're dangerous.
And we have to stop him.
joe rogan
OK, that's not it.
There's a thing where he does a thing about – he's probably doing it at multiple speeches.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When he talks about – he's like pointing at somewhere.
Yeah.
But it's like – I don't know.
james lindsay
That Wharton thing was pretty good too.
joe rogan
It's pretty funny.
It is kind of crazy how many times they've indicted him.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's pretty wild.
james lindsay
I actually hear like I fly a lot.
I'm on planes a lot and sometimes people talk and they like – I've heard several times people are like, well, I'm a Democrat.
But I don't – like why does this keep happening?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's kind of crazy because it seems like what happens in Banana Republics.
But just somehow or another it's okay?
The exact same thing?
james lindsay
Well, because protecting democracy.
joe rogan
Well, did you see when that guy from Shark Tank, Kevin O'Leary, when he was discussing this whole thing?
It's like you're going to ruin real estate development in New York.
People are not going to want to do real estate deals there.
Because this is how they do it.
When they say, my building is worth $400 million, you're supposed to say, no, it's worth $300 million.
Here's a loan on $300 million.
To say that that's fraud when he paid the loans back, that is the epitome of what are you doing?
What are you chasing?
And what have you not chased?
What have you not chased down?
Can we go over what you have not chased down?
And you're chasing this down.
Is it possible that you're doing this because this guy's running for president?
james lindsay
Right.
joe rogan
Because it kind of seems like it to the world.
james lindsay
Yeah, it looks real...
joe rogan
It looks real like that.
It looks real like you're trying to prosecute your political opponents.
james lindsay
With these gigantic...
Letitia James with these gigantic, you know...
I don't even know what it is, a settlement.
joe rogan
It's not a settlement.
360-something million dollars?
james lindsay
That's insane.
joe rogan
It's a lot of money.
james lindsay
That's a lot of money.
joe rogan
For someone that...
Where does it go?
Because there's no victims.
james lindsay
Right, exactly.
joe rogan
That's a problem.
Like, Elon tweeted that.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's like, okay, where does it go?
james lindsay
It goes to her brag sheet is where it goes.
joe rogan
Well, it's just kind of bonkers.
And then you get the fucking Georgia one with that fanny lady.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
The lady's in trouble.
james lindsay
She's in trouble.
She's in hot water.
joe rogan
She's in real trouble.
She's in real trouble.
james lindsay
I was actually in Fulton County the day where Trump came in and got indicted and did his mugshot or whatever.
It was pretty wild.
I mean, it's just nothing.
There's not a story, but I was there.
Not at the courthouse.
I was just nearby.
And I was like, holy shit, I came here on this day, like, of all days.
But, yeah, she's in trouble.
She's host.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
The whole story is amazing, though.
To see her on the trial getting sassy.
To see her on the stand getting sassy and to see that her explanation was cash.
She keeps a lot of cash around the house.
Like, where did you get this cash?
james lindsay
Yeah, really.
joe rogan
Why do you have so much cash to pay for all these vacations and all that?
You paid them back?
Okay.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
What?
It's like a little kid's explanation.
Oh, I paid them back in cash that I just had laying around.
james lindsay
I just happened to have it, you know.
joe rogan
With the idea that it's a black thing, too.
james lindsay
That's what I was going to say.
joe rogan
Keep cash around.
james lindsay
They tried to come out and say, well, this is, you know, they're scrutinizing her because she's a black woman.
This is encouraging, though, because like two years ago, I think that would have worked.
And now it's like people are like, stop.
joe rogan
The other thing she tried was, I am not about to emasculate a black man.
What does that mean?
That is not an answer to a question.
james lindsay
That is not an answer.
joe rogan
But that's a way to throw up that race card and see if you can get out of this question.
james lindsay
That's right.
Get out of jail free.
joe rogan
Emasculate a black man.
He just happens to be black.
We're just talking about what you did with the money.
james lindsay
Yeah.
unidentified
It doesn't matter who the people are, just who did the money.
joe rogan
What the fuck happened here?
What's going on?
james lindsay
I call it the iron law of woke corruption.
joe rogan
It's so wild.
james lindsay
Totally.
joe rogan
It's so wild to see.
It's just very strange.
And it's very...
Here's what drives me crazy.
Like, how is all this...
DEI stuff.
Getting into airplanes.
james lindsay
Yeah.
Isn't that scary as hell?
joe rogan
Isn't United run by a drag queen?
james lindsay
Well, he did do that.
Scott Kirby is the guy's name, which sucks because I fly on United a lot.
Yeah.
joe rogan
But don't you want the absolute best people regardless of their sexual orientation, their gender, their color, their race, the very best people that you can get to fly the fucking planes?
james lindsay
I do.
joe rogan
And fix the fucking planes.
Wouldn't you like, I'd like, it'd be sweet if we had the best people for the job.
james lindsay
You want to put the tinfoil hat back on?
I got an explanation.
joe rogan
Okay.
james lindsay
Okay, so earlier I said that the goal is to de-grow The West and facilitate China's rise.
OK, so what's happening?
Boeing 737, Boeing 737, Boeing, Boeing, Boeing.
We see all this DEI stuff at Boeing.
We see all these problems.
We just see this guy that committed suicide.
joe rogan
The whistleblower?
james lindsay
The whistleblower against Boeing, who was saying some deep stuff like that they were intentionally fitting bogus parts.
I don't know if this is true, but that's what he was alleging.
And then all of a sudden he decided it was a good day to kill himself right before his deposition he was supposed to go to.
And so, I mean it's weird timing.
What's – he's saying that Boeing could be construed, let's suggest, as though it's deliberately committing suicide as an organization.
It's cutting corners.
It's locked in by this ESG, DEI stuff.
That's – the easy question is why is DEI? Because ESG. It's the S in ESG. But little do most Americans realize in addition to scaring the hell out of people and getting people to fly less – China just released a new jet two years ago called the Comac C919 that is a direct competitor to the Boeing 737. So maybe you kill Boeing and you allow American manufacturing of high-quality aircraft to fall and
then the Chinese competitor is now the thing on the market that doesn't have this bad rap sheet and this risk factor.
Maybe it's big, dirty international business that's actually happening.
Nobody knows about the COMAC because how much do we pay attention to Chinese stuff?
They literally, it launched last year for commercial production.
joe rogan
That seems like such a hat you're wearing.
unidentified
I know.
joe rogan
Made of tin foil.
james lindsay
I know.
unidentified
But the problem is that's how ESG works.
james lindsay
The degrowth strategy of the West and the trap.
joe rogan
But someone at Boeing must know this is going on and why would they ever allow that to happen if they're a corporation and they have shareholders?
james lindsay
Oh, but we're exiting shareholder capitalism for stakeholder capitalism now.
In other words, to answer to the ESG cartel, they are, I mean the Harvard document, this Harvard corporate law document that I was talking about earlier explicitly says that your governance score can go up for giving yourself corporate bonuses for installing ESG. So you're the CEO, you're the C-suite of Boeing, and you're like, well, my business is going to get attacked on the market.
It's going to be hard to get lines of capital through these banks unless I'm ESG compliant, and I get a gigantic bonus if I'm ESG compliant.
Well, let's just be ESG compliant.
ESG compliant starts telling you you have all of these expensive regulations that you have to go through and you have all of these DEI social justice things you have to install, all these administrators you have to hire, commissars you have to hire, DEI officers, ESG officers.
Those are like six, seven figure jobs.
So you have all this stuff.
So what is it to cut corners on the cost a little bit to pull a broken piece out of the scrap and screw it onto the back of an airplane?
Or to hire people who are not really, like they don't know what an impact wrench is, but they'll figure it out on the tail portion of a 737 in a moment.
So you hear the left saying it's corporate corner cutting.
It's corporate corner cutting.
It's profits over everything.
But what if the market that they're running in is actually controlled in this ESG sense to where they have very few options and they get to reward themselves for installing it and are punished if they don't?
And I will wear this.
I will put the biggest – let's fold a tricorn Revolutionary War tinfoil hat and go, Joe.
joe rogan
Let's go.
Yeah, that's what I'm looking at now.
I'm looking at one of them sailboat-looking things.
james lindsay
Hell yes.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But that would mean they're intentionally destroying a company by sabotage and by a slow infiltration of these ideas to the point where you can get them to fit inferior parts on an aircraft.
That doesn't – it seems like there's got to be inspectors, right?
james lindsay
So the inspectors must be watching.
That's part of the scandal.
That's what this guy that committed suicide – What is he saying?
That's what he was saying, is that they were not inspecting correctly.
And then part of the video that went viral of him talking was, Yeah.
joe rogan
speak very briefly, but I saw the store and I was like, Jesus Christ.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
And my first initial thought was this man was so embarrassed by the fact that he incorrectly said that Boeing was an evil corporation that he decided to take his own life because he knew that Boeing was amazing and that he had genuinely done a terrible thing.
james lindsay
Yeah, that's a plausible explanation.
joe rogan
That seems most likely.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because the other possibility is they killed him because he's telling the truth and there was going to be a problem.
james lindsay
That's a dark story right there.
joe rogan
The dark story is that they killed him because if he's dead, then they make billions of dollars.
And if he's alive, he could fuck them up and cause the stock to crash and all kinds of other problems to happen and a lot of investigations and all kinds of other stuff, if he's right.
james lindsay
Have you heard of this thing, degrowth, by the way?
joe rogan
No, I haven't.
Do we have that video of that?
I want to hear it, though.
I want to hear about this degrowth thing.
Because this is also a 4D chest that scares the shit out of me.
It scares the shit out of me to think that there really is a puppet master.
james lindsay
Or group.
Yeah, a committee, probably.
Council.
Soviet means council.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But that it's actually effective.
But then if you think about who the actual president is, you know he's not in charge.
So, well, who is it then?
We've agreed to let a bunch of people that we're not exactly sure who they are run the country.
And once you get that sort of a system in place, They'll do whatever the fuck they can to make sure that they keep that.
Because they can just keep him in there alive for four more years.
He's going to be even crazier three years from now.
james lindsay
People should look up the Council for Inclusive Capitalism while they're wearing their tinfoil hats.
joe rogan
I almost want him to be president for three more years just for stand-up.
james lindsay
Well, there is that.
joe rogan
I mean, I don't know how much longer he can go.
james lindsay
There he is.
joe rogan
Yeah, so let's listen to this guy.
john barnett
One, this is not a 737 problem.
It's a Boeing problem.
And I know the FAA's gone in and they've done due diligence and inspections to assure that the door plugs of the 737 are installed properly and the fasteners are stored properly.
But my concern is, what's the rest of the airplane?
What's the rest of the condition of the airplane?
And the reason my concern for that is back in 2012, Boeing started removing inspection operations off their jobs.
So it left the mechanics to buy off their own work.
So what we're seeing with the door plug blowout is what I've seen with the rest of the airplane as far as jobs not being completed properly, inspection of steps being removed, issues being ignored.
My concerns are with the 737 and the 787 because those programs have really embraced the theory that quality is overhead and non-value added.
So those two programs have really put a strong effort into removing quality from the process.
When I first started working at Charleston, I was in charge with pushing back defects to our suppliers.
And what that meant was I'd take a group of inspectors and actually go to the supplier and inspect their product before they sent it in.
Well, I'd taken a team of four inspectors to Spirit Aerosystems to inspect the 41 section before they sent it to Charleston.
And we found 300 defects.
Some of them were When I returned to Charleston, my senior manager told me that we had found too many defects and he was going to take the next trip.
So the next trip he went on, he took two of my inspectors and when they got back they were given accolades for only finding 50 defects.
So I pulled that inspector aside and I said, did Spirit really Clean up their act that quick?
That don't sound right.
And she was mad.
She said no.
Said the two inspectors were given two hours to inspect the whole 41 section and they were kicked off the airplane.
joe rogan
Wow.
james lindsay
Yeah.
Yeah, so there are inspectors, sort of.
joe rogan
Well, that sounds like a money thing, right?
They're saying that quality is overhead.
jamie vernon
Yeah, well, that's profits.
His first whistleblower statement was made in 2017, I think.
james lindsay
Yeah, he was doing like a deposition or something the other day when he was found dead in his car in the parking lot of a hotel.
But you said the profit thing there.
So I mentioned the Comac C919. That's the direct competitor Chinese manufacturer, new Chinese manufacturer to the 737. Well, there's a Comac 929 as well, which is a direct competitor to the 777 and 787. And the 787 is the other one that you just mentioned.
I don't know if you've heard of degrowth.
And degrowth is actually a model that kind of can avoid being communist.
But I read this book called Marx and the Anthropocene by this Japanese Marxist named Kohei Saito.
And it's called Toward the Idea of a Degrowth Communism.
And it talks about how what we need to do is It matches the Marxists of the 60s, by the way, is that what capitalists need to do, Americans, capitalism needs to shrink.
We produce too much stuff that nobody really needs.
So what we need to do – well, I'll just tell you what Herbert Marcuse said in the 60s was socialism has the right ideology, but it can't produce.
So we have to figure out how to make a productive socialism.
And I'm arguing that's what happened in China.
They figured out the code.
Well, how?
By opening up a kind of Potemkin market that the government really controls.
Well, then on the other hand, he said, well, capitalism – His own words were, it delivers the goods.
However, it's not sustainable.
It makes too much stuff, too much junk.
And so what we need is a reduction in our standard of living, a reduction in our amount of stuff, a reduction in energy and everything in the West.
And if you could somehow figure out how to make a more sustainable capitalism, then you're off to the races.
So what I was saying earlier is that when Kissinger and Brzezinski and Deng and Chan and Rockefeller were meeting, They were erecting the idea of this productive socialism for China, for China to take off with a Potemkin-contained market.
Meanwhile, eventually, the West would have to degrow so that we could have a system that's not going to outstrip the world's resources.
This is at a time when limits to growth from the Club of Rome was really big and really hot.
Klaus Schwab put that, platformed it at the World Economic Forum in 73. These guys are still around.
Paul Ehrlich and his population bomb was like a big thing.
And so these guys were thinking along these terms, and it was how do we degrow the West?
And so what I think we're looking at is, well, there's a Chinese manufacturer that can rise while the American manufacturer shrinks.
America might not be able to make its own jets, but we can buy them from China.
And China becomes more and more secure as the manufacturer from the world.
Meanwhile, the Degrowth Initiative, there's this program or this research program That was called UK Fires, F-I-R-E-S, like fire, right?
And this was Oxford University, Cambridge, the government, the British government.
This is serious.
And so this thing that came out, published in 2019, was called Absolute Zero.
It's not called Net Zero.
It's Absolute Zero.
And it says that Net Zero is not enough.
We are not going to save the climate change problem if we only go for net zero carbon emissions.
We have to go to absolute zero carbon emissions.
And so it openly says, what are the initiatives?
No new concrete production.
No new steel manufacturing.
No container shipping.
I mean, you can actually look on the document and see.
It's like zero by 2050. But it also says no fossil fuels and no air travel by 2050. Zero.
Absolutely zero air travel by 2050. What?
And so how do you get to zero air travel by 2050?
How do you create a massive reduction?
Well, what else is going on besides the Chinese market go up?
Boeing look bad.
Media, of course, is amplifying stories that are pretty routine.
Little things go wrong with aircraft all the time.
I've taken off a few times, you know, a flap or something gets stuck.
We have to turn around and land and they have to fix it.
This is national news when it happens.
So they're creating this image that is really scary.
But what are the airlines doing at the same time?
What is the new aircraft?
Have you heard of the boom supersonic?
Made in Colorado.
So it's like the new Concorde.
Right.
Well, you can't fly those over land.
Those are transatlantic only, right?
So the UK fire thing actually says no domestic flights whatsoever, but international travel will be reserved.
Well, it turns out the Boom Supersonic is a Concorde replacement.
It's really, really fuel efficient.
It's really well designed.
Not going to throw shade at it.
So its operating costs are approximately similar to like a 777 or a 747, right, for the same distance.
The Concorde was a disaster in terms of how inefficient it was.
So now you have, by 2029, 140-something, 150, something like that, orders for the boom supersonic.
So they're planning on flying boom supersonics internationally, but the bigger one seats 60 and the smaller one seats 45. Well, a 747 or a 767 might seat 360. So that's either six or eight times as many people flying at roughly the same operation cost.
So you do the math and the tickets are going to go up by six to eight times over.
That's not a difficult calculation to figure out if they want to make the same profit, which means who's flying?
People who can pay eight times as much for a plane ticket or who's flying?
Nobody else is flying.
So what you end up doing is, for the sake of the climate, you degrow commercial travel that's going to kill off a ton of business, but you don't need that.
You can do it by Zoom.
Wouldn't this podcast be so much more engaging if we were on Zoom screens?
Wouldn't we be having a great time and great relationship?
Have you ever watched Zoom?
I do a ton of them.
So I watch these interviews on Zoom.
It's like...
Five minutes in and I'm having like suicidal ideation.
Like, do I really have to watch this?
I don't really have suicidal ideation.
My God, I'm going to get a million things.
I'm just kidding.
It's a joke.
It's a joke.
I'm going to stare down the camera.
joe rogan
You're funny you have to say that now?
james lindsay
Dude, if you make a like...
I swear to God, if I have to watch one more Zoom, if I have to be on one more Zoom call this week, I'm going to KMS, right?
If you say that on any social media, you start getting emails that are like, suicide hotline prevention, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
joe rogan
But it used to be a thing that people just said.
james lindsay
Yeah, for sure.
joe rogan
If this movie doesn't end soon, I'm going to kill myself.
It's fun.
james lindsay
Yeah, like nobody's going to kill themselves because a movie went 45 minutes too long.
But no, I think this degrowth thing is serious.
What's it called?
The Monthly Review, Monthly Standard, one of these.
It's a socialist magazine.
Publish this article about degrowth.
And they have their drawing of what it's supposed to look like.
And it's supposed to go down to this thing that Klaus Schwab talks about called a circular economy.
Bill Gates talks about a circular economy.
But literally their drawing is a spiral down to this little circle in the middle.
It looks like you're society going down the drain.
And it's like...
How do you not make fun of this?
But I think that they're very serious to try to shrink the economy.
And I have my tinfoil hat, but I can tell you why that's the strategy also.
And it's to avoid the war.
It's to avoid China rising.
This is that Thucydides trap.
We've kind of started there.
Thucydides trap was the idea that when you have a rising power, in that case from Thucydides it was Sparta, going up against an existing power, which would be Athens.
In our day though, it's China and the United States.
If the thing rises...
Eventually it's going to try to get regional or in this case global dominance.
China's going to try to become, when it becomes strong enough, the global superpower.
Well, if you want access to that market, which they did, you have to open that up and China's going to rise so that you get trapped into the threat of power struggle between two very wealthy superpowers eventually.
Well, how do you avoid the war?
Simple.
You take the existing power and sunset it while the other one rises.
So the sun is no longer rising in the west.
It's now setting over America and it gets to rise over the east.
We have a century of Asia.
So we build up Chinese markets.
We diminish American markets.
And I think that the whole ESG program, which by the way China is exempt from, is designed to do that.
joe rogan
How is China exempt from that?
james lindsay
Because they're a developing nation in the global south.
So the policies don't apply to them because climate change is super global or something.
joe rogan
How are they a developing nation?
Because they keep developing?
james lindsay
Well, imagine what would happen if you told them no.
They are the manufacturing base for the world.
What if you said you have to like start following decent human rights protocols.
You can't not pay people for their labor.
Maybe don't kill people.
Don't disappear people anymore.
And at the same time, you know, instead of building something like 300 new coal plants, which is I think what they're doing, they're building a couple of coal plants a week in China.
They're building 57 nuclear power plants.
The U.S. is taking some offline, but we're building one in Georgia right now.
So you're creating the state of energy dominance for China because you've released them from all these expensive protocols.
And all you hear is when people try to start a big company that could compete in the U.S., well, let's get the manufacturing for X, Y, or Z.
Take it out of the hands of China.
Bring it back to America.
Let's un-offshore some stuff.
Bring some American manufacturing back.
They're like, whoops, too expensive.
DEI ESG makes it too complicated, too expensive.
Everybody complains about it in the business world.
joe rogan
So if you don't comply with DEI and ESG, you can't get loans?
james lindsay
You have a diminished access to or worse interest rates for your short-term lines of capital.
joe rogan
Jamie pulled this up.
It says, the benefits of the UN's designation extend beyond the institution itself.
For example, the World Trade Organization allows developing nations to have longer periods of time To meet various financial and trade obligations.
The World Bank provides China billions in loans, even though China's income level would otherwise make it ineligible for such financing.
james lindsay
Uh-huh.
And then add in, just again, imagine the World Bank said, no.
China, that's it.
We're cutting you off.
What would China do?
China would say, pound sand.
China's going to be like, we're huge.
unidentified
Ha ha ha.
james lindsay
We're going to do what we want.
Probably in Mandarin, because they're going to make everybody answer in Mandarin from then on.
joe rogan
God damn, man.
james lindsay
And I'm like...
I'm not gonna say that...
I mean, we talked about the tinfoil hat.
I can't think of a cleaner explanation that this is deliberate.
I've tried really hard to think of an explanation other than that this is on purpose.
And they all start like spinning wheels.
It's like really weird.
But the tools are there.
ESG, social credit in China, the whole thing.
But I think the Boeing thing is just another piece of this same puzzle.
It's destroy the manufacturing base in the wealth of the West and hand it off to what they call the Global South and China through its Belt and Road Initiative.
joe rogan
God, I hope you're wrong about this one.
james lindsay
I... I spend my entire life hoping I'm wrong about everything I think.
joe rogan
How often do you write?
james lindsay
I write a lot.
joe rogan
No, are you?
james lindsay
What do you mean?
joe rogan
How often are you right?
james lindsay
Oh, how often am I right?
joe rogan
Correct.
james lindsay
Sorry, I thought you were like, I'm so in my own life in my own stupid head, I thought you meant W-R-I-T. No.
Like, no, I'm writing two books at the same time right now.
I really am.
One about Maoism, but how woke is Mao.
But at any rate, I'm right, let's put it, it's easier to identify when I'm wrong.
I do overcook the books occasionally, but it's not very frequently.
There's a whole joke online that James Lindsay was right.
joe rogan
What have you been wrong about?
james lindsay
Well, the far right likes to lord over me.
I thought that they were setting up – and I'm going to totally give myself an escape hatch for this, but – I thought that there was for sure going to be a clash of violent clash between probably conservative Christians and the LGBT thing somewhere around Pride last year.
I was talking about that leading up to – through the spring of 23. And there was obviously no incident of violence.
I was particularly concerned when all those Christians went to LA to Dodger Stadium and they protested the weird – What were they?
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence or whatever they called themselves, the drag queens that looked like nuns.
And I thought, well, this is going to be it, right?
So I was wrong.
I overcooked there.
They did not – now here's my escape hatch.
I think that when that shooter who was trans in Nashville – was it Covington?
Is that the name of the school?
Covington School Shooter?
I think that that changed the entire calculation.
joe rogan
I think Covington – was that Florida?
james lindsay
Yeah, I might have this wrong.
No, it's the one that was in Nashville though.
joe rogan
Right.
james lindsay
And there were six people were shot, three kids, three teachers.
But the one where they haven't released the manifesto yet.
unidentified
Right.
james lindsay
But Stephen Crowder ended up leaking allegedly three pages of it.
When that happened, I think the entire country had like a take-a-breath moment because you had this very disturbed young person who was in the transgender community.
gender universe who went on a rampage.
And you very infrequently see – she was biologically female, young women going on rampages.
So why in the world is it?
Was she hopped up on testosterone?
Was she – Was the test converting to estradiol through aromatase or whatever and driving her into rage because that's a thing?
Why did this happen?
Or was she just so frustrated by her ideology and stuff not going her way and she decided she flipped out and was going to get revenge?
I think that changed the calculation.
I think that they were priming the situation for violence and then the violence didn't come.
So I overestimated the potential for that circumstance and – I was wrong about that.
See if I can think of some more instances.
joe rogan
But that's like a bold prediction.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
To predict violence is a bold prediction.
You could be wrong about that.
But I mean like specific things that you believe to be true that weren't?
james lindsay
Other than the fact that I thought it would be better to live without religion than with it in the past.
joe rogan
Isn't that fascinating?
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
I've had the same sort of battle in my own mind.
james lindsay
You know, that was a luxury belief of like 90s kids.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it was the idea that the atheists were smart and the other people were superstitious.
james lindsay
Yeah, that was totally dead wrong about that.
I had TDS. I had straight up.
I was like on the floor.
joe rogan
Trump derangement syndrome.
james lindsay
That's right.
I thought Trump was the end of the world.
joe rogan
This is 2016?
james lindsay
16, 17, yeah.
joe rogan
When did you guys come on the podcast with those fake papers?
james lindsay
That would have been very beginning of 19 or very end of 18. Yeah.
Because that came out in October 18 and you were fast.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I was...
I fucking loved it.
To this day, we've talked about the dog park one like a hundred times.
james lindsay
That dog park paper is on another level.
joe rogan
It's goddamn genius.
It's goddamn genius.
But it's so crazy that so many of the things that you talked about in these fake papers were appreciated and applauded.
And it just makes you realize the lunacy of these fucking people that are supposed to be in charge of higher education that they didn't pick up on that this is insane.
You're talking about heteronormity in dog parks?
What the fuck are you saying?
What the fuck did you study?
james lindsay
They won an award, dude.
joe rogan
They won an award.
What was the total title of the paper?
james lindsay
It was Human Reactions to Queer Performativity and Rape Culture in Urban Dog Parks in Portland, Oregon.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
james lindsay
Dude, some of those other ones, though, like we had the one is called it's called in through the back door where we said that straight men would become more feminist and more sensitive and less transphobic if they practice putting things up their own asses.
joe rogan
Oh, that's right.
james lindsay
That was called an important contribution to knowledge.
That's still my favorite thing ever.
joe rogan
An important contribution to knowledge.
james lindsay
I just love the titles.
We had a fat bodybuilding paper and we called it Who Are They to Judge?
Because like bodybuilders are huge and fat people are huge and who are they to judge that one big body is bad and one big body is good?
joe rogan
Well, I don't think that that merits a scientific paper, but if you wanted to do that and people wanted to see it, I would have no problem with it.
Like, if you decided that we're going to go back to, like, the days of, you know, when you see these Rubenesque women in these paintings that are obese, eating grapes, that this was considered hot because it was really difficult to get fat back then.
You want to go back to that?
If that's what your choice is, I have no problem with that.
You do what you want to do.
james lindsay
Yeah, well, best of luck to your dating pool.
joe rogan
Yeah, but the thing is to study that for a scientific paper and then to submit it and then have people give it a fucking award?
Like, what?
james lindsay
My favorite part of that actually is in the title, but in the way aftermath of that, this real neuroscientist wrote this paper like...
No, there's no way that anybody could actually say that's absurd.
And so we wrote a paper back and we're like, no, it's really absurd.
And then he wrote another paper.
Like, there's no basis upon which anybody could say that fat bodybuilding is an absurdity.
His name is Jeffrey Cole.
Do you remember that weird phobia that came out and it went viral like 10, 15 years ago where he was like, they discovered a new phobia of things where like little holes in it all over the place.
Tripsophobia, I don't know, something like that.
Like honeycombs or whatever.
And it like weirds some people out.
joe rogan
Oh, really?
unidentified
Yeah.
james lindsay
It's the guy who discovered that.
joe rogan
Oh!
james lindsay
Went off on us.
joe rogan
Oh my god, that's hilarious.
So there's no way it could be absurd that fat bodybuilding...
james lindsay
There's no basis upon which we could conclude that it's absurd.
Some people might think it's totally normal.
So it couldn't possibly be considered absurd.
joe rogan
Well, some people could think it's totally normal.
james lindsay
Well, they could.
joe rogan
You could imagine that someone could get to a point where they appreciated fat bodies and they wanted to see different fat bodies and like, how did you build your fat?
You know, only lard.
I ate only lard.
james lindsay
That's in the paper.
It says it takes a long time to build a fat body.
It does.
It takes even longer to build a politicized fat body.
joe rogan
But it does take long to build a fat body.
james lindsay
I don't know, man.
joe rogan
If you were interested in doing that, like if you're interested in drinking yourself to death.
Like, I don't think you should do it, but you're allowed to.
james lindsay
And it's a project.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's a project.
And if you decide to fat bodybuild yourself into a state of total biological decay...
james lindsay
I did it over the weekend.
I went off my diet, and I'm like...
Because I'm doing that meat thing now, so I'm like, three days of just, you know, okay, I'll eat breakfast.
Okay, I'll have the dessert.
And I'm like, what the...
How did I gain six pounds?
Like, what the hell is this?
joe rogan
Yeah, you can cheat and get gone pretty quick.
I'm on it 90, I'd say like 95% of the time.
james lindsay
That's about me too.
joe rogan
But last night I cheated.
Last night Joe DeRosa brought me a sub.
He's got this sub shop in New York City called Joey Roses.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
And he just put in like, I guess he's got a stand out here or something.
He's got a pop-up out here.
And so he brought over some sandwiches for the club.
james lindsay
Dude, it'd be hard to follow that diet in this city.
There's a lot of food here.
joe rogan
There is a lot of great steakhouses though.
james lindsay
That's true too.
joe rogan
It's not that hard to follow.
The thing is, that's what my body craves for the most part.
james lindsay
Me too.
I feel like a thousand times better.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I just think for most people, high protein diets, they just feel better.
james lindsay
High protein, high fat.
joe rogan
And the most important thing is real food.
james lindsay
Real food, that's right.
joe rogan
I ate a lot of eggs, a lot of meat.
james lindsay
Yeah, it comes out of a chicken.
It doesn't come out of a box.
joe rogan
Yeah.
And I always show way better.
I've done a bunch of different diets.
I've tried a bunch of different things.
james lindsay
Well, they're after that too, right?
No beef consumption.
joe rogan
Yeah, well, that's another one.
james lindsay
That's in the absolute zero paper too.
No beef, no lamb.
unidentified
Zero.
james lindsay
Absolute zero.
Because apparently that's really bad for the environment or whatever.
joe rogan
And the question is, how are you going to get people to go along with that?
james lindsay
The Salt Lake Tribune just put out an article yesterday, I made fun of it on Twitter, talking about the same thing.
It's like, we need to get no meat, no dairy, and then we can have better diets or whatever.
joe rogan
How are you going to kill all those cows?
It's up to you.
You go do it.
james lindsay
Jordan Peterson says that it's proof that it's an earth-worshipping or Gaia-worship cult because they're sacrificing cows to the weather.
joe rogan
That is wild.
james lindsay
Jordan, you got a point, brother.
joe rogan
That's a very good point.
Sacrificing cows to the weather.
Like in Ireland, they passed some law where they had to kill like 200,000 cows.
james lindsay
That was what we were talking about.
Me and Jordan were talking about that.
joe rogan
What the fuck are you guys talking about?
You're out of your mind.
You're stopping people from making food?
Are you fucking crazy?
And meanwhile, China's making thousands or how many coal plants they have?
james lindsay
300-something.
I don't know how many they have.
I know how many they're making.
And I've gone over and breathed the air there.
Yeah, I've been over there and breathed the air, like on a bad day.
Like on a nice day, it's a nice day.
It's the same as usual, like here.
But three days of the week, it's like Blade Runner.
It's like, what the hell's going on?
It depends on which way the wind is blowing and otherwise, like your life is literally poison.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
james lindsay
Like, your eyes are burning for no reason.
Here's the worst part.
So you get off the plane.
Have you ever been to China?
I don't want to waste your time.
joe rogan
No.
james lindsay
Okay, you get off the plane and immediately you can smell it.
It smells kind of like glue and dirty cardboard and petro.
You can smell the pollution immediately.
So, you know, about an hour in, you can't smell it anymore.
You're used to it.
unidentified
Right.
james lindsay
Until the first time you go take a piss and you smell it again because it's in your blood.
unidentified
Oh.
james lindsay
And you're like, oh no.
joe rogan
Oh wow, you smell the pollution and you're pissed like asparagus?
james lindsay
Yeah, like the first time.
joe rogan
Oh my god.
james lindsay
Then you become completely used to it and you don't notice it anymore.
joe rogan
That's the thing about olfactory senses.
You become accustomed to smells.
That's why people that live in places that have like...
If you go past a slaughterhouse, have you ever done that?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
That fucking smell, you're like, how do these people live with this?
james lindsay
I got lost in the smokestack part of Texas one time, and there were some smells on the road even.
joe rogan
Yeah, it used to be New Jersey.
When you'd go past the factories in Jersey, you'd be like, what the fuck?
And they're just billowing smoke out into the sky.
Just billowing smoke out into the sky.
This fucking smell?
Imagine this is your town, dude.
You gotta get out of here.
james lindsay
I'll tell you what, that's China.
So what I said when I went over the first time, so this is kind of relevant, is this whole ESG model.
The first time I went over there, as I said, I came home and people were like, well, what's it like?
And I was like, well, I looked around and it's obviously communist because you can see weird shit where people are like fake doing fake jobs.
Like it's obvious that they just get paid in income to look busy.
Stuff like a dude sitting on his hands and knees hitting the ground with a hammer when the boss is around.
Like, doing nothing.
Like, I went to a bank one time when I was over there to change like $200 so I could have some cash, and they were like, oh yeah, the bank doesn't change money on Tuesdays.
And I was like, what?
And then I got bumped into by this janitor, and that's like, I guess, taboo or something, because he was way too worried about having bumped into a customer than I thought he should have been.
Maybe I just don't know the culture.
So he was like, he bumps into me, and I know like 10 things in Chinese.
So he was like, which means like, no problem.
And all of a sudden, you could see, you know, they all did the little, like, you know, you're not supposed to do racial microaggressions, but they did the little face.
They're like, you know, because I did the whole, like, Asian surprise face because I spoke Chinese.
joe rogan
Right.
james lindsay
So all of a sudden, the lady behind the desk was like, oh, I just remembered.
We do change money on Tuesday because now she thought I could go tell on her in Chinese.
unidentified
Whoa.
james lindsay
I was at Starbucks and they wrote white man on my cup, Byron on my cup.
jamie vernon
Interesting.
unidentified
Interesting.
joe rogan
Ireland isn't calling cows for climate, but maybe it should be?
What the fuck?
james lindsay
Oh my god.
jamie vernon
What the fuck, Elon?
james lindsay
It's not happening, but it should be.
jamie vernon
It's not a true story.
joe rogan
It's not a true story?
It's fake?
jamie vernon
I mean, yeah, it said it came from Elon's tweet that came from something else, and then one looked into...
Oh, here you go.
Like, the rumor started here.
joe rogan
Okay, here it goes.
The rumors of Ireland's dairy cull landed in a media and online context primed by the Dutch case for outrage.
Case in point, Musk's comment was in response to a tweet by a right-wing provocateur about a story in an obscure Wyoming publication called Cowboy State Daily that accused Ireland's government of bovine-sidal intentions.
That article, in turn, cited an op-ed from the British newspaper The Telegraph railing against Ireland's alleged mooted cow massacre and warned in apocalyptic terms of an eco-modernist agenda to do away with conventional meat altogether.
The Telegraph did not cite its sources, but it likely drew on an article published the previous day in the Irish newspaper, The Independent.
That story reported on the internal government document discussed above, including the proposal that 195,000 cows be culled over three years at the government's expense to help achieve its ambitious climate goals.
But hold on a second.
jamie vernon
It goes on to continue about how it would be so hard to even do it.
joe rogan
But that story – but hold up.
Go back there.
That story reported on the internal government document.
So what is the internal government document?
jamie vernon
They would need to call 65,000 cows every year in order to meet the proposed climate goals.
joe rogan
So they're just saying that if we – there's no way to meet these goals.
The only way to meet these goals in terms of what the impact agriculture would have, we'd have to kill 65,000 cows a year.
So they're not saying we should do that, but they are at least saying that's on the table.
james lindsay
I talked to these ranchers out in New Mexico not that long ago, and they were telling me that that's the way all the policies are.
It's that to meet whatever the new environmental standard is so that you don't get somebody breathing down your neck or maybe you don't get fines or whatever, that they're actually impossible.
He said that the only way you could meet some of these is to have no cows and no people on the land whatsoever.
And I don't know if they're actually going to move on that, but this is what I'm talking about with – because it's not – Not in the UK FIRE's absolute zero document.
It's 100% in there that this says no beef, no lamb at all.
So those have got to go.
By 2050, there will be zero consumption of beef and lamb under the ambitious net zero or absolute zero, I should say, climate.
joe rogan
By 2050, zero.
james lindsay
Zero.
joe rogan
And so do they plan on making cows extinct?
Do they plan on keeping a breeding population that you could fucking just keep the...
Species alive with?
What the fuck are they going to do?
james lindsay
I don't know.
But they talk a lot about the emissions of those.
But then they also say that when there was the massacre of the bisons, that that was really bad.
And bisons make a lot of emissions, but there was no climate emergency from all the bisons.
So, I mean, I don't know.
joe rogan
Well, the climate science is also a religion.
If you have anyone that goes over the actual data and differs with what the narrative is, that person is a crazy person and a climate denier.
james lindsay
A denier.
That's right.
joe rogan
You can't even have discussions about the actual, like, the real numbers.
You can't talk about the real history of the climate of Earth.
You can't talk about the dangers of global cooling.
If you just talk about the dangers of global cooling, you're a climate denier.
james lindsay
Yeah, you can't talk about whether we're in a natural warming cycle or if it's got, you know, or whatever.
Not saying that we are, I don't know, but you can't talk about it.
joe rogan
This is one fact, for sure, we know, 100%, that the temperature of Earth has never been static.
james lindsay
That's right.
It goes up and down.
joe rogan
Ever, ever, ever.
When they do those core samples and they go back thousands and thousands and thousands of years, it's never been static.
It's always been all over the fucking place.
And there's a bunch of variables that cause it to change.
unidentified
Yeah, that's right.
joe rogan
They know that.
And they know that humans are having some impact.
We're having some impact.
What is the impact?
And how much of it should we throw the fucking society that we all live in into the gutter to try to fix?
james lindsay
Right.
Or hand over all of the power to a handful of unelected dictators.
Yeah.
These so-called stakeholders.
Why does Bill Gates know more about all of this than everybody?
I get it.
He built Microsoft.
He can do something.
He knows something.
I'm not going to take that away from him, but...
Why is he the god of vaccines and climate and every other thing because he built a fucking computer?
joe rogan
It's very weird.
It's all very weird because you don't want to think it's that on the nose.
You don't want to think it's that on the nose that they're engineering the demise of I actually get hopeful when I think that they are.
james lindsay
I'm much more afraid of it being just some random organic shit going off the rails than it is that there's some number of people who could be identified as criminals.
joe rogan
I worry about that.
I worry about it that a lot of it is a random thing that just happens with human beings that are tribally opposed to each other.
james lindsay
Then maybe too wealthy or whatever.
joe rogan
And there's a lot of that, a lot of free time and a lot of easy living.
And then it all just ramps up like everything does.
Like nothing stays like this is a good way to behave.
That's where religion comes in because religion does tell you this is a good way to behave and these are the tenets you should live by.
And it's not like this thing that you should be escalating and pushing it further and further and further.
james lindsay
It's like, not to get all, like, churchy, but I have been.
Seriously, when I said earlier that I've been looking at the Bible a lot, looking at the Gospels, not just particularly, but especially, I was reading the Gospel of Matthew the other day, the seventh chapter, and I bet you never thought you were going to have this conversation with me.
But I was reading it, and I'm reading about the, you know, the way is narrow, the straight and narrow way, where he has that in Matthew 7. He's like, you know, wide is the path that leads to destruction, but the way that leads to life is straight and narrow.
And it's like...
Well, what is that talking about?
It's like you have to live well.
You have to treat each other well.
It's like you have to also repent when you mess up and people don't like to do that.
You can't just go along with the crowd because the crowd is going in some direction.
That's the wide path and that leads to destruction.
But the way is straight and narrow.
When he says straight, it's not like straight like straight line.
It's straight like a waterway.
Right.
So that means that the edges are like right there.
And if you don't run the boat just right, you're going to crash into the sides.
And it's a weird kind of pun or whatever in English, but it turns out that that's the word that he used for Greek is what it means is a narrow waterway.
And so it's like you got to – it's very important that we live like that.
And so what does religion do?
Well, religion teaches people to like at least contemplate this crap.
Why don't you stop for five minutes of your week and think maybe there are some ways to be a good person.
joe rogan
Right.
And if you don't have a structure for that, then it's dependent entirely upon the ideology that you subscribe to.
If it's an out-of-control ideology, that may very well be controlled by foreign powers that are using it to disrupt this country.
It's a crazy thing to think, but that might really be what's going on.
james lindsay
I think it is.
I'll put the hat back on or whatever.
I'm not afraid of the radio waves is the problem.
I've got to put like something else on.
Tinfoil hat is fine though.
joe rogan
It suits its purpose.
james lindsay
Yeah, it suits its purpose.
It's – seriously, but then even that gets infiltrated.
So people have got to take it really seriously.
I like to tell people this is my little like bit, right?
So I'll waste one of my bits.
But I tell people it's like here's how communism is.
This is how freaking seductive it is.
So in, again, Matthew chapter 10, Jesus is talking and he says that I send you out and you have to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.
It's a very famous – Matthew 10, 16, it's a very famous verse.
So you have to be wise and wary like a snake, right?
Testing, the tongue testing the air, knowing where you're going.
If I'm going to send you out into the world, you've got to be wise and judicious and discerning, but you also have to be gentle, right?
And so what do the communists do?
This is how subtle they are, Joe.
They come along and say, did you hear that?
Jesus said, be gentle.
And they leave out the other part.
And you're like, yeah, he did.
And then you got a bunch of like weak, namby-pamby pastors who think it's about being winsome and being cool for their congregation and like not standing up for the truth any longer.
And that's bad.
And then what happens is stuff starts to go shitty.
And then you have Mussolini comes along.
The fascist guy comes along.
And he's like, the problem is being gentle.
But no, the problem was that you're not being discerning and wise anymore.
So what happens is the communists take away half the commandment to suck you in and marries a truth to a lie or whatever, and then the fascists overreact by throwing the principle out entirely.
But if people were grounded in their faiths and taking it seriously, they would realize, no, no, no, no, I have to be kind and gentle, but I also have to be wise as a serpent.
When a serpent's in danger, it doesn't hesitate to strike.
But it's only going to do that when it's in danger.
So it's like that's crafty, man.
unidentified
Right.
james lindsay
And then look at like that's crafty to an adult.
Now imagine when they do that to like a five-year-old, like with the stuff in schools or whatever.
Like, oh, well, people who look like you had a long history of causing a lot of problems in this country.
And they didn't say you're a bad kid to the kid, but they said people who look like you or your ancestors.
Speaking of my ancestors, we'll let the world know because my reparations bill will go through the roof.
I found out recently I'm seventh cousins with Robert E. Lee.
joe rogan
Whoa.
james lindsay
Yeah, like some family is doing the genealogy.
So now my reparation bill just went up to like Elon Musk level.
joe rogan
Wow.
james lindsay
Yeah.
That's crazy.
I didn't know the guy.
joe rogan
Oh, of course.
james lindsay
Never met him.
joe rogan
Of course.
We're just like we're not mad at Klaus Schwab for his dad.
james lindsay
No.
We're mad at Klaus Schwab for other reasons.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It wasn't his choice.
It wasn't your choice that Robert E. Lee was...
How many generations?
james lindsay
Seven.
joe rogan
Seven.
james lindsay
Yeah.
Apparently, my line and he had a common grandfather is the way that the seventh cousin's math works out.
joe rogan
It is kind of wild to imagine that just a couple hundred years ago, less...
The United States was involved with a war with each other.
james lindsay
Yeah, that's right.
Like, just...
joe rogan
That's how nuts we are.
We're so fucking nuts, we'll fight each other.
james lindsay
Well, freedom's important.
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
Right?
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
I mean, liberty or death.
joe rogan
Yeah.
And that was the ultimate one, right?
james lindsay
Yeah.
I have to think about that all the time now, man.
Like, give me liberty or give me death.
I used to think when I was a kid, like, that's crazy.
joe rogan
That sounds ridiculous because there's no real issues when you're a kid.
james lindsay
But now it's like, no, that's legit.
I'm in.
joe rogan
Yeah, they said it for a reason.
Because back then, it was a whole different ballgame they were playing.
Imagine someone trying to start a new country today.
james lindsay
Yeah, you're going to have a hard time getting off the ground.
joe rogan
Good fucking luck.
You think it's hard to get a DEI loan?
james lindsay
Yeah, no kidding.
joe rogan
To start a manufacturing corporation in America?
Imagine trying to start a country.
james lindsay
Yeah, you better be compliant with everything.
You're like some crazy rogue state or whatever.
joe rogan
Imagine if Iceland was for sale or some country.
Greenland.
You could buy Greenland.
Imagine you bought Greenland.
We're just going to fucking let people be cool.
james lindsay
Really cool, actually.
joe rogan
Let people have a good time.
Well, that's a good spot to buy if the global warming fanaticists are true, if they're right.
If they're correct, Greenland's the spot.
james lindsay
So are they buying up that property?
joe rogan
No.
The thing is, a lot of these people that are pushing all this climate change agenda have homes on the beach.
And they're not getting rid of those.
And by the way, the shoreline hasn't changed.
james lindsay
Yeah, Plymouth Rock is just barely above the surface.
You can still see where they wrote 1620 on it.
joe rogan
Look, the surface has changed throughout human history.
We know that, folks.
And you know when it changes the most?
most when there's a fucking ice age.
That's the scary shit, kids.
james lindsay
Yeah, and there's these weird things because it doesn't change tomorrow.
It's not like that stupid movie.
It's like you can build these things called seawalls.
joe rogan
But it's also like every single thing that happens is being used as a device to control people.
And the fact that some people are reluctant to see that is very disturbing to me.
It's like Hey guys, something's happening here.
james lindsay
And same formula every time.
It could be that we're all going to have a better future, but there's these deniers that won't come along with us, so hate them.
Because it would be great.
And you're sacrificing, you're riding a bike to work instead of driving your car.
joe rogan
You're a good person.
james lindsay
You're a good person and those assholes with their truck, you know, big diesel truck are ruining the planet.
joe rogan
I was watching this lady talk about this.
She was talking about how she loves having an electric car because she knows that it means I'm being a good person.
james lindsay
Yeah, that's right.
joe rogan
Contributing to the environment.
I just saw this thing that said that the environmental impact of electric cars is actually worse overall than the environmental impact of a traditional combustion engine.
Is that true?
Because that sounds crazy.
james lindsay
I read the same thing as you, so my depth of knowing that it's true is equal to yours.
joe rogan
Just in all fairness, I drove here in an electric car.
I drive in an electric car all the time.
james lindsay
Do you?
joe rogan
Yeah, I have a Tesla.
It's awesome.
james lindsay
Oh, okay.
joe rogan
Fucking rules.
james lindsay
I've seen a couple of the Cybertrucks.
You got a Cybertruck?
joe rogan
No, I have the Model S. Oh yeah, those are fun.
It's great.
It's so comfortable.
It's easy.
It's fast as shit.
It's ridiculous.
It makes other cars feel stupid.
They feel dumb because they don't move like that thing.
That thing moves like it's like teleporting.
It's bizarre.
It's bizarre what it can do.
It's easy to drive.
I don't like the fact the horn's not in the middle.
jamie vernon
This is probably what we saw.
joe rogan
Electric vehicles release more toxic emissions are worse for the environment than gas-powered cars.
Study.
This is in the New York Post.
And it says, it's amazing that they didn't ban this story.
james lindsay
Yeah, right?
joe rogan
From the New York Post.
Remember when they did that with Twitter with the Hunter Biden laptop?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
How wild is that?
Electric vehicles release more toxic particles into the atmosphere and are worse for the environment than their gas-powered counterparts, according to a resurfaced study.
A study published by Emissions Data from Emissions Analytics was released in 2022, but has attracted a wave of attention this week by being cited in a Wall Street Journal op-ed on Sunday.
It found brakes and tires on EVs release 1,850 times more particle pollution compared to modern tailpipes, which have efficient exhaust filters, bringing gas-powered vehicles' emissions to new lows.
Today, most vehicle-related pollution comes from tire wear.
Whoa.
As heavy cars drive on light-duty tires, most often made with synthetic rubber made from crude oil and other fillers and additives, they deteriorate and release harmful chemicals into the air, according to Emission Analytics.
james lindsay
I do know they're heavier and they wear down the roads faster.
joe rogan
Wow.
Because EVs are an average of 30% heavier, brakes and tires in the battery-powered cars wear out faster than on standard cars.
Emission analytics found that tire wear emissions on half a metric ton of battery weight in an EV are more than 400 times as great as direct exhaust particulate emissions.
For reference, half a metric ton is equivalent to roughly 1,100 pounds.
That's something that someone had told me a long time ago about cities.
The thing about the pollution is it's not just the emissions.
It's brake dust.
james lindsay
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
That you're breathing in brake dust.
Because if you've ever, like, touched your car, like your wheels after you drive it for a while, when you're cleaning your car, you get brake dust.
james lindsay
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
That goes out in the air.
james lindsay
Oh yeah, totally.
joe rogan
You know what it doesn't?
On carbon brakes.
When you have those carbon ceramic disc brakes, they don't seem to do that.
Are they more environmentally friendly?
Are carbon ceramic disc brakes more environmentally friendly than regular?
Because your wheels don't get all fucked up like that.
You don't get brake dust all over your wheels.
james lindsay
Yeah, look at that like nasty black.
joe rogan
No.
No, it's interesting.
It's more expensive and they put them on like high performance cars.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
But is it more environmentally friendly?
Because it seems like it would be if you're not getting the brake dust.
I'm like, where is it going?
Is it just not making dust?
Because it's a carbon fiber pad and then the brake?
So does it just work without making dust?
Does that even make sense?
james lindsay
What I read about these EVs, besides getting their materials to make the batteries, is that they don't...
They're not, like, reusable.
There's, like, no used EV market.
joe rogan
Right.
james lindsay
Like, nobody wants to buy a used one, and then replacing the batteries if they, you know, wear out is a disaster, apparently.
joe rogan
It's very expensive.
james lindsay
Yeah, just close to the price of the car itself sometimes is what I've heard.
I don't know.
joe rogan
Really?
james lindsay
Yeah, they can be extremely expensive.
So there's no, like...
joe rogan
I didn't know it was that much.
james lindsay
There's zero aftermarket.
So, like, where do they go?
Do they have, like, electric car graveyards, like, with the windmill blades, where they just kind of bury them in the dirt?
Like, I don't know what happens to them.
jamie vernon
There's a significant reduction in brake dust compared to metal blend pads.
joe rogan
Significant reduction.
jamie vernon
But they are way more expensive, aren't they?
joe rogan
Yes, they're way more expensive.
james lindsay
Yeah, it's like everybody's got to ride around in expensive Porsche brakes.
joe rogan
Yeah, but I mean, if you think about all the other things that we do for the environment, If carbon ceramic brakes are a possibility, how much more expensive?
Does it make a car $500 more?
Is there a way that they can produce them in mass?
Is there a reason why they haven't done that?
I mean, that seems to be alone a solution, at least for electric cars.
If you'd say, you're spending the money to get a Tesla, they're fucking expensive already.
If someone's going to spend $120,000 on a car, you won't spend $122,000 and get carbon ceramic brakes that won't Pollute the atmosphere nearly as much.
james lindsay
Yeah, well, it would seem to make reason.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's a wild statistic, but that lady was not aware of that.
She's like, I'm doing a really amazing job.
jamie vernon
It's important to this quick thing I just pulled up.
It says it almost takes a month to make each one.
james lindsay
Holy shit.
joe rogan
Whoa.
jamie vernon
That's probably why.
james lindsay
That's a lot of investment to build.
Well, ceramics are complicated if they're high tech.
jamie vernon
Wow.
joe rogan
Holy shit.
jamie vernon
Average of, I don't know, $10,000 per break?
Does that sound right?
Whoa!
I don't know if that's right, but that's just, yeah, you're looking somewhere in the $10,000 range for a set of rotors.
joe rogan
Wow.
james lindsay
Wow.
joe rogan
Holy shit.
james lindsay
Maybe it's a little bit more than that.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Damn.
james lindsay
Damn.
Yeah.
joe rogan
But isn't there another way?
If they have carbon ceramics and they're doing it for that, isn't there some other kind of compound that they could do that's comparable?
Doesn't it seem like someone should be able to figure that out if that's literally the source of our major form of pollution?
jamie vernon
I bet they're trying to figure that out.
joe rogan
Yeah, what am I, retarded?
jamie vernon
Yeah, some guy's definitely trying to figure that out.
joe rogan
What the fuck is wrong with me?
I'm like, why doesn't anybody figure it out?
james lindsay
A lot of R&D. But it still doesn't answer the question.
If people want to drive an electric vehicle, like, okay, fine, who cares?
jamie vernon
Right.
james lindsay
But it's like, why do we have to get rid of gas ones if the emissions are negligible compared to their brakes, whatever the brakes happen to be?
Right.
So if their brakes are most of the pollution and the emissions are like basically nothing, I think that emissions is one of those words, that they just say it and then everybody has to do what they say because they said emissions.
Think about the emissions.
Think about the emissions.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And they're not taking into account brake dust.
james lindsay
Like, yeah, there's so much else going on.
It seems just...
A little bit fake.
joe rogan
Well, it's definitely fake if that's true.
If that's true, that's something that really...
But the scary thing is, and they say, then we must take all cars off the road and everyone stays in a 15-minute city and bicycle everywhere.
It's good for you.
james lindsay
You saw what Buttigieg said a year or two, two years ago, that their goal was by 2030 to get to net zero, that's the buzzword, automobile deaths.
How do you get to zero automobile deaths?
joe rogan
Stop people driving cars.
That's the best way.
james lindsay
Yeah, basically it.
Like, turns out that stuff happens.
john barnett
Good lord.
james lindsay
Yeah, so it's like...
joe rogan
Good lord, James Lindsay.
Don't come here with good thoughts and tidings for the future.
james lindsay
I am the most optimistic person in this stupid culture war, Joe.
joe rogan
You're the most optimistic person that knows what you know.
james lindsay
Well, okay, that's fair.
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
No, I actually think, like, I see these guys bungling so much.
Like, Joe Biden's—he's a bungler.
He is a bungle.
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
Like, I got asked at this Christian event one time, this kind of person's, like, wailing, and they're like, you know, if God is real, it was almost like, if God is real, why do we have to have Joe Biden?
And, like, the only answer I could think of on the spot was because people have to be able to see— Like, dude's pulling the curtain back for an awful, like, what the hell's going on?
joe rogan
Having that guy as president is fascinating.
And when they expose, like, when Corrine Jean-Pierre, or however you say her name, when she tweeted accidentally from her own account, as Joe Biden, it's like, oh, look.
james lindsay
How about that?
joe rogan
And when you see that lady, when she's the White House press secretary, answering questions, it's so ridiculous.
james lindsay
It is preposterous.
joe rogan
Imagine that that's the person that's pulling strings.
james lindsay
And then it's like they invite, like, well, what was that guy that was stealing women's luggage?
joe rogan
Yeah, Sam Brinton.
james lindsay
Like, the whole administration.
joe rogan
Yeah, they're at their fucking minds.
james lindsay
Like, you know, whatever shade is deserved and no more, but we got the Admiral Levine and we just see the pictures and you're like, what the hell?
joe rogan
And she's in charge of health.
james lindsay
He...
joe rogan
He.
He's in charge of health.
james lindsay
We'll be in trouble for that, but...
joe rogan
Whatever.
That person, that crazy person is in charge of health.
unidentified
The Admiral.
joe rogan
That unhealthy-looking person is in charge of health.
james lindsay
Yeah.
I mean...
joe rogan
Whoa.
Hey.
james lindsay
Hey.
joe rogan
Maybe there's a problem.
james lindsay
Yeah.
unidentified
And China must be laughing.
joe rogan
I kind of admire their long game.
I think it's very impressive.
Well, it is.
Listen, I am not Chinese, but if I was in China, I would be proud of what my country's doing to America.
james lindsay
A generational strategy.
joe rogan
I think they're killing it.
james lindsay
My experience on the ground in China is that roughly half, like what's going on, not against America, but with that system, and roughly half would very quietly whisper when I was there, do everything you can, because if we lose America, we lose everything.
unidentified
God.
james lindsay
So there's a sizable portion of Chinese that know that they can bug out to America, but if America goes, there's nowhere to bug out to.
joe rogan
Isn't that wild that wearing a Make America Great Again hat on can get you punched?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And it happens to be red, which seems at least slightly symbolic.
james lindsay
Yeah.
joe rogan
The whole thing is bananas.
james lindsay
We are in the pinnacle of bananas time.
joe rogan
James Lindsay, I'm very, very glad you're out there.
I'm glad that you know as much as you know and you can talk about these things.
And that you have a personality that seems to enjoy some of this conflict.
james lindsay
Well, I like a little bit.
And I like the absurdity.
I'm not going to lie.
I think at the end of the day, it's easy to remember this is all really funny.
joe rogan
It is very funny unless it's tearing your life apart.
And then it's not so funny for you.
But the human folly of it all at scale, at the scale that we're witnessing, is kind of amazing.
james lindsay
It's tremendously amazing.
joe rogan
It's also kind of amazing when we know as much as we know about human nature.
We know as much as we know about the benefits of hard work and work ethic and discipline.
All these things that we've always praised people for in the past is now being dismissed as being racist or sexist or Islamophobic or whatever the fuck it is.
james lindsay
White supremacy culture.
joe rogan
Whatever the fuck they can label it with.
It's like they're trying to diminish strength.
Through a very obvious sort of ideological scheme.
And it's weird.
It's weird to watch.
It's weird to watch human folly play out like that.
And so many people accept it and adopt it.
james lindsay
Yeah, it's a fun project.
joe rogan
Is that what the Bible was talking about when they said the meek shall inherit the earth?
james lindsay
Yeah, it might be.
It was definitely what the Bible's talking about where one prophet after another stands up in the Old Testament and is like, listen, you screwheads.
You're way off the track, and if you don't get in line, God's going to punish you.
And so what did they do in almost every case?
Not quite every case.
They go after the prophet, right?
joe rogan
Yeah.
james lindsay
Like, the prophets didn't have a nice, easy ride.
Maybe a couple of exceptions to that.
But the prophets got, you know, were like, hey, guys, we got to get back to, you know, living the correct way.
And they bullied the prophet instead.
So it feels kind of like living in Bible stories sometimes.
joe rogan
It does.
I feel like if we were on Spotify, I would ask you to queue up Johnny Cash, God's going to cut you down.
So can we just play that just for the Spotify people and say goodbye to the YouTube people?
We can't do that?
Not really?
Alright, I'll listen to it when I get out of here.
You should too.
What was that?
Who's everybody else?
james lindsay
I'll play it for us.
joe rogan
Just for us?
Alright, let me hear a little bit of it.
I didn't know Chris Rock was in that video.
Alright, we'll edit that out.
Hey, thank you.
Appreciate you.
Thanks for being here, man.
And thanks for having so much information that you can just give people a roadmap that I really don't think is available in a lot of places.
unidentified
Well, I appreciate that.
joe rogan
Thank you very much.
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