Eric Weinstein joins Joe Rogan to expose theoretical physics’ 20-year stagnation (1953–1973), where anti-gravity research—funded by defense contractors like Martin Company—was abandoned due to the 1973 Mansfield Amendment, ending military-backed "cowboy science." He critiques modern academia’s focus on bureaucracy over breakthroughs, like his 14D manifold theory, which could enable interstellar travel but is ignored. Skeptical of UFO claims without hard evidence (e.g., Tic Tac’s center-of-mass data), he warns governments may weaponize physics or hide failures under cover-ups like Operation Fortitude. Both stress unity over division to avoid existential collapse, framing Earth as a "narrow place" demanding responsibility—not privilege—while dismissing distractions like luxury cars amid global distrust and potential nuclear risks. [Automatically generated summary]
Okay, this is a really weird and interesting question.
I had a different puzzle that I've been working on for years, which has to do with physics and is important to me in my work and what I care about, which is there is this crazy history between around 1953 and 1973 With an explosion of activity that sometimes goes under the name of the golden age of general relativity,
where general relativity was sort of put in final form in the teens by Einstein and also Marcel Grossman, who never gets the credit for the original papers, I think, on general relativity.
Einstein is the genius, but he had a mathematical friend whose father saved Einstein, I think got him the patent job.
And there's like a meeting called the Marcel Grossman meeting.
So he's a shadowy figure on the edge of the Einstein legend.
I don't think he deserves the credit Einstein did, but if you look at the first paper in General Relativity, Before Einstein says anything concrete, the first paper he says something vague.
That's 1913. And that's with Grossman.
The next paper he says something wrong.
He publishes the wrong equation.
Then he corrects the equation and it's incomplete because it doesn't have the cosmological constant.
And I think it's four papers before he has the equation that now dominates our understanding of the cosmos and the large.
So then it goes silent and effectively the smart kids are all following Bohr because Bohr and the quantum – Have so many open problems, whereas general relativity seems like pretty much a closed book.
And that's until 1953. And something very bizarre happens in 1953, which we can get to, but then there's 20 years of explosion in general relativity, which, you know, you've had Roger Penrose on your program before, so he comes from that era, and Stephen Hawking was interior to that era.
Richard Feynman of all people was very active and gave lectures at Caltech.
So my entry point was that when I was a young guy at the University of Pennsylvania, When I'd come home to L.A. for break, I'd go out to Caltech, and I would park in Feynman or Gelman's parking spaces, which I just thought was the coolest thing in the world, that these people, these gods, had little, you know, stones with their names stenciled on it.
So I would go park in Feynman's space, and I would go to the Caltech bookstore, and I found that there was something that was sold there that at the time I don't think was sold anywhere else, which was like the Feynman Lectures on Gravitation, 1962 to 63. And they were It was like,
Feynman says, I don't know how Einstein did his thing, but imagine that you didn't have the insight that this was all geometric based on a guy named Bernard Riemann's notion of what differential geometry is, sort of the smooth surface geometry of curvature.
And Feynman says, let's just imagine this was an ordinary field theory.
Am I, Richard Feynman, smart enough to figure out the geometry just proceeding as if I was a particle theorist?
And this is a very strange and interesting, wonderful thing to do.
And these notes are fantastic.
My question is, what happened between 1953 and 1973?
Because the reason that I'm in part really animated right now is that this month, February 1st of 2023, is the exact 50th year anniversary of the stagnation In particle theory, as measured by the movement from the standard model.
So the standard model in general relativity are the two basic theories, the theory of the very small, the theory of the very large.
They're incompatible in a certain level, but they're very similar looking at a different level.
So this has been driving people crazy.
And I say, you know, in 1973, Crocodile Rock was the number one song, or the entire yellow ribbon around the old oak tree.
Imagine that song being at the top of the pops For 50 years with no respite.
How did the world's smartest community stagnate this badly?
This has happened once before in recent times between 1928 when Dirac came up with something called quantum electrodynamics, which is electrons and photons interacting, light and a little bit of matter.
And for almost 20 years, until 1947, we couldn't compute with this first quantum field theory, quantum electrodynamics, otherwise known as QED.
And suddenly in 1947, we held a conference at Shelter Island in the tip of Long Island.
And they didn't invite the old people as much as they invited the young people coming after the success of the Manhattan Project.
Now, the Manhattan Project gets remembered by us as a physics project, but it was really engineering because the theorists were unable to fight their way out of a paper bag.
So we gave them an engineering project and they completely crushed it, right?
They gave us these atomic weapons.
So we had a pretty good idea of who was smart, and people like Feynman were smart.
So we held this weird, cheap conference at Shelter Island at the Rams Head Inn, and Feynman figured out that, along with a guy named Julian Schwinger and another guy named Tomonaga in Japan, that there was a stupid error, like a really boneheaded, you know, I can't find my keys for 20 years, and then you realize, oh, they're in my pocket.
So this thing had to do with the fact that there were two concepts of mass.
For the electron.
And if you imagine that this table between us was ice, right?
And I pushed this cup, we would know about how much the mass of this cup was based on how it responded to force.
But what if I start putting friction?
Now it's wood.
It appears to be slightly more massive because it takes more force to drag a cup across wood than it does across ice because of the coefficient of friction.
That number is the effective mass or the dressed mass.
And we thought that that was the real mass.
And we had those two numbers set equal.
And when we realized that they weren't the same number, suddenly the theory yielded.
I say, if you subtract the screens in our lives, so there are phones, the flat screen TVs, all that stuff, and you forget about style issues because style changes.
How do you know you're not in 1973?
More or less, you know, we don't have George Jetson stuff everywhere.
But just in terms of technology, like, the distance between 1952, where we have the first thermonuclear device in the test known as Ivy Mike, and 1902, before we even have powered flight, is like 10,000 years.
If you listen to John Mayer, for example, talking about what's wrong with modeling amplifiers, You know, you can get $100,000 worth of equipment in one of these little boxes, but a tube amp is hard to replace because there's something special in analog technology of a different time, where you pass current through a pickup, and that magnet, you know, there's magic that happens between wood and magnets and steel, right?
All this kind of stuff.
I appreciate an automatic transmission as a thing of beauty, but I'd rather drive a stick still.
Okay, but so getting back to the whole UFO thing and the progress...
We don't realize what percentage of life was determined by physics, right?
So, for example, Wi-Fi and all the communication is the electromagnetic spectrum, including radio waves.
We don't realize the semiconductor, which created the logic gate.
All we did was scale it up, and now it's chat GPT. The number of things that have changed the world, whether it's the World Wide Web coming out of CERN, Physics is really what has moved the dial, including molecular biology, founded by physicists, more or less.
So when you lose this community, you don't understand.
Like, you think, okay, that's some egghead shit.
It isn't.
Physics is basically progress.
Physics created the modern economy.
And to have a 50-year stagnation, particularly—and I want to draw a really important contrast—1968 was the year we discovered the quark.
So in every proton, there are three valence quarks, two of them named up, one of them named down.
In a neutron, it's two downs and one up.
So that's how we—neutrons and protons are not fundamental.
When we found the neutron, it was in 1932. So my aunt, Judy, shout out to Aunt Judy in Philadelphia, is older than the neutron.
And the neutron doomed us as a species.
Like that one discovery more or less indicated that if we do not leave this world, we will die here in short order.
Because if you throw a proton at a very heavy nucleus, It doesn't crash into the nucleus.
You've got all these protons in the center that are all positively charged and this one guy is coming in, you know, at high speed and all these massive protons say, you know, like charges repel and this thing just runs away like a scaredy cat.
A neutron is almost a proton.
It's basically the same kind of a deal but with no charge.
So it doesn't understand that you're telling it, you know, go back, danger.
And it just screams in and it can split these nuclei, releasing all of this energy.
And then you get these chain reactions with the neutrons radiating out.
So in 1932, we discover the neutron.
I think it was by 38, this woman named Lise Meitner figures out the chain reaction.
By 42, 10 years after the discovery of the neutron, Enrico Fermi and something called Chicago Pile 1, CP1, crazily does a controlled chain reaction under the bleachers of the University of Chicago, shout out to the University of Chicago Stadium, which could have obliterated the city of Chicago if it had gone critical, right?
I mean, if it had just run away.
Nobody knew what was going to happen.
So we trusted the city of Chicago to Enrico Fermi's calculation.
By 45, you get Trinity and the two bombs we drop on Japan.
And then in 1952, game over, you have Ivy Mike and the first thermonuclear weapon based on the Teller-Ulam design, which uses the fission bomb just for foreplay as the detonator.
That causes the waves to go out and radiate out against the shell.
And I think we still don't talk exactly how we do it.
And then they bounce off and they compress this rod and core.
And then you get fusion rather than fission.
And suddenly you're harnessing the power of the sun.
And that's when you don't even worry about ducking cover because thermonuclear is such a leap above fission devices.
And that's such a leap above conventional devices.
That it takes 20 years for us to become God, right?
And this power we can't control.
We need to worry about physics because you never know when somebody's going to discover a neutron.
In other words, a high-leverage object, just like the semiconductor was a high-leverage object.
The World Wide Web in the early 90s was the high-leverage object.
Anything that comes out of physics...
Oh, and Francis Crick, physicist discovering the three-dimensional structure of DNA and then the transfer hypothesis where you translate DNA into messenger RNA, which gets red in ribosomes.
All of these things changed the world and effectively gave us so much power that we don't know how to control it.
And we were so scared for 70 years because it's six months between 1952 and 53 where we discover both the atom and the cell and how they work in terms of this forbidden knowledge.
We can talk about whether he got set up in a coup or who he really is, whether he was an actor, etc., etc., But at some point, I think I heard him, I had to go back to like the Russian and Ukrainian speeches in order to try to, I don't speak much Russian, I don't speak any Ukrainian, but they're closely related languages.
And he calls for like preventive strikes.
I'm like, huh?
This was a while ago.
I thought, why is this person allowed to address Congress?
You have somebody who – and I want to be very clear about this.
I really find it disgusting what Vladimir Putin did invading Ukraine.
But if you look historically at the killing and the borders of Eastern and Central Europe, they have gone back and forth Like, nobody's business.
When you ask somebody like me, an American Ashkenazi Jew, where did your family come from?
You always get the same weird response.
It's like, oh, it was a part of Belarusia that went back and forth between Poland, Ukraine, Moldova, Lithuania, because it's fluid, right?
And so when we say we respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine, We were fighting right now in Lvov, like the Ukrainians were fighting in Lvov, eight seconds by hypersonic missile from Article V territory since 1999 in Poland.
And I realized how crazy we got.
I was in Providence, Rhode Island with my son and I get this alert on my phone and it says, two people are dead in Poland with a presumptive strike by a Russian missile.
I'm thinking, did I read two Polish people dead in an Article 5 full NATO member since 1999 with a Russian missile?
Because I knew we were fighting way too close to this border.
Now, by the way, if I say Lvov, everyone's going to correct me and say, no, no, Eric, it's Lviv.
It's like, no, these cities all have multiple pronunciations.
I always thought of Lvov was a Polish city, not a Ukrainian city.
And ironically, I believe Lvov is the birthplace of Stanislaw Ulam who came up with the Teller Ulam thermonuclear design.
So we're talking about some of the world's smartest people on some of the world's bloodiest, most disgusting, most beautiful land.
So my family basically is scattered, you know, was scattered throughout the shtetls of Ukraine.
And I've been over there in 89. We Americans do not understand Central and Eastern Europe, period, the end.
And for us to be making these commitments and not understanding how Russians think and how Ukrainians think and how Poles think and how the fighting works, I don't think we know what we're doing.
I think we're creating a doomsday machine.
And I – the reason that we – it's not like Zelensky isn't wronged by Putin.
It's not like he's not charismatic.
He has one of the greatest Bruce Willis lines of all time.
When we ask to evacuate him, he says, I need ammunition, not a ride.
That thing makes us – Yeah.
I want that.
There's like house-to-house fighting, the way all the World War II enthusiasts think.
They tend not to think about Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
They like the tactical stuff with all the, you know, which bridge got taken out over which river and how did we do this and that.
So it's very romantic to people who are like World War II addicts.
We do not realize how deep the trouble we're courting is.
And I don't think we realize how dangerous it is.
If we are going to, every time there's a border dispute...
Go to a thermonuclear standoff.
It's just Russian roulette with smaller and smaller numbers of empty chambers.
And I don't know what this is.
I don't know whether we have 30 years to play this game or three or three months.
But I learned that day last year in 2022, nobody around me in Providence, Rhode Island was reacting.
Everybody was just going about.
It was like a normal day.
I'm increasingly, Joe, believing that I am sane and that the world is crazy.
And normally I take that as a cue that maybe I need to get some sleep.
No, I think we're actually just going crazy.
I think that those of us who actually get how risky this is need to speak up because it's not fun.
The entire apparatus will tell you that you're soft on Putin and you're an appeasing Chamberlain wannabe.
And it's like bullshit.
Right now, you don't realize in 2004, we let Latvia and Lithuania into NATO membership.
And I remember thinking at the time, what the hell are we doing?
It's not like I don't understand that we want to protect them.
It's not like I don't understand that you want to say that they're independent nations.
But these were former Soviet republics.
And there's two ways of thinking about it.
You can put on one set of glasses and say, well, these are nations that get to decide what they want and who's to tell them what to do.
And then there's another thing called spheres of influence, where it's like, that's the Russian sphere of influence.
If you are not playing with both of these sets of lenses, you're not playing the game.
And the number of people who just have one set of these glasses on They're only seeing the infrared or they're only seeing the ultraviolet.
It's like, no, you need to oscillate back and forth and understand what you're doing.
So I think Zelensky, and I'm scared to say this because I know I'm going to get just nothing but hate We created a situation by pretending that we didn't understand the spheres of influence glasses.
We very well understand the sovereignty glasses.
And we are now creating a doomsday machine that we do not understand.
And the world is going to go multipolar, and we don't have the skill to play this game, period.
Do you think part of the problem is that the amount of people that have actually gone to war in this country, first of all, there's people that are in the army or in all the armed forces, they're volunteers.
Everyone volunteers.
There's no draft.
There's no national requirement to join the military like there is in Israel and like there is in South Korea and many other countries.
The people that have experience with the war are the ones that are telling you this is dangerous.
People like yourself are telling us this is dangerous.
But to the rest of the world, to the rest of this country, there's a real problem with day-to-day existence because day-to-day existence is tricky.
And it gives you parameters which you exist in, but they're not real.
And I don't think people that show up every day at the same Starbucks and then get on the highway and go to their office and repeat every fucking day, I don't think they think of that as a real option in the world.
At least in the Cuban Missile Crisis, my father was driving across country.
I said, you knew it was the...
He said, everybody knew it was the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Every single town that he drove through, he would stop and the TV would be on.
People were talking about it, right?
We are in some world where...
And I think that we have to just talk about the fact that the United States is attacking ordinary intelligent human beings by depriving them of any basic knowledge of what is actually going on.
We don't know what happened with the origin of COVID.
We have no idea about Epstein.
We don't know what's going on with the vaccines.
We don't understand the source of the inflation.
We blinded ourselves from looking at the M1 monetary aggregate when the Fed pumped us full of cheap cash.
We have no clue how to resolve something as dumb as the Epstein – to whom did Ghislaine traffic?
When Trump created ambiguities, or now the Biden group is creating ambiguities by not telling us what's actually going on, you don't know how serious this East Palestine-Ohio spill is.
Is this something that's going to burn off pretty easily, or is this getting into the corn crop that's going to be found in all processed food?
He said that he was the evil Chauncey Gardner, like a simpleton, like Mr. Magoo, just happens to wander into the Oval Office as the first president with zero government experience, including the armed services.
Bullshit.
Trump may be a savant, but he was brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
If you do not give that devil its due, you're toast.
I know that I'm scattered, okay, because I do a lot of different things.
And I'm thinking about things that are totally unnecessary, like professional pool matches.
Like I think about that all the time.
Like, how did he get positioned on that six ball?
It's crazy.
And I'll think about that when I'm driving my car.
So I'm a scatterbrain in a lot of ways.
So sometimes when I'm talking, I'm there, but I'm not fully formed in these thoughts.
I'm trying to talk them out in real time.
And you get clumsy with that.
Concentrate on something you get really good at it and if you concentrate on something and trying to improve on something whether it's playing chess or Whether it is business you get really good at it and in the meanwhile you might not be good at interpersonal relationships You might not be good at the way you communicate with people you might not be good at but you have some weird That you're doing that seems to be successful and you're putting all your energy into that.
That's what he's doing.
That's what he's always done.
What he's always done is like these business deals and making money and putting a fucking giant hotel with his name on it.
If they got in debate about religion, if they got in debate about certain things that Sam is, like neuroscience, certain things that Sam is very educated in, he's so good at debates.
It's like being a black belt that's used to tapping people all the time.
And then you see this guy, he's winning debates against people because he's calling them like, what does he call, Lion Ted, and he gives people nicknames, and I think If I was Sam, and I was as good at debate as Sam is, I would go, I can fuck this guy up.
So this is why if you sit down with one of these, like if you and I are at the beach, right, and we've got the world's greatest beach volleyball team on one side, and the world's greatest CPAC Tuckero team on the other side, it's a ball, it's a net, and it's three dudes, okay?
I can poke you in the eye, but you can't poke me in the eye.
No, that's not fair.
It has to be fair.
So if you're going to have a – and some would say, well, he's not capable of having a good faith conversation, but that's the only way to do it.
The only way to do it is to have an open-ended timeframe where you could just – until this fucking thing is resolved or until we all give up, you guys can talk.
Maybe it would slow the ball down a little bit because it's got a little bit of smush to it.
And I think that would almost be like a change-up in like a pitching situation, where someone's throwing a ball, you're expecting it to be 90 miles an hour instead of 60, and you're like, motherfucker!
Like, you're off, right?
Because you have to be so ready to go!
And it's slower than it should be, so it's fucking with your computer.
Quantum gravity is the replacement for something that used to be known as the unified field.
So Einstein wasn't chasing quantum gravity, he was chasing unified field theory.
And unified field theory was much closer to what we would call classical physics.
Where you get quantum field theory by quantizing a classical theory.
That fell out of favor.
And around 1984, we gradually had unified field theory become sort of like a joke, old-timey expression for the future of physics.
And we substituted quantum gravity for the merger of quantum theory, quantum field theory, quantum mechanics, and gravitational physics under general relativity.
That program, that dog doesn't hunt.
And it hasn't hunted for 70 years.
So I wanted to trace this back.
How is it that the field became convinced that something which clearly doesn't seem to work and has had all of the resources, all of the best minds at its disposal, it sucks up everything, and it just doesn't work?
Between 1973 and 1984, or let's say 74 to 84, because we'll group 73 to 53, you have 10 years of super exciting guesses about the extension of our understanding.
Things called supersymmetry, grand unified theory, technicolor.
These are really responsible guesses, axions.
And somebody like Sean Carroll or Neil deGrasse Tyson might talk to you about these things when they come in here.
In 1984, there's an earthquake called the anomaly cancellation.
And a failed theory of strong physics, the physics needed to glue two protons together in a helium nucleus because they both hate each other because of electromagnetism and want to separate, but something is binding them together like a family structure, right?
That force we initially tried to fix by thinking of it as strings.
We'll put like elastic bands between things and it'll pull things back together.
That didn't work.
But then we repurposed it and said, no, no, no, it's quantum gravity and...
One single individual who is the most dominant mind on planet Earth at the moment, effectively Voldemort, the person whose name we are a little bit afraid to invoke and cause wrath, said in 1984, no, string theory is the way.
This anomaly cancellation was unexpected and it clearly points to the fact that we are, ladies and gentlemen, we are about to quantize.
String theory started with a clever formula written down by Veneziano in an effort to satisfy not-so-well motivated phenomenological ideas about strong interaction scattering.
That was a way for a theory to start which was as strange as the way quantum mechanics started.
And the way Einstein happened to have invented a theory in a It's a particularly striking triumph of reason and intuition.
But most other physical theories have had more complicated history.
No, it still seems to me it's a question of whether you start with a mathematical scheme and then look for a physical interpretation or start with a physical principle which you guessed to be correct and then, on the one hand, try and prove it experimentally to be true and, on the other hand, codify it into a mathematical form.
I must admit, I've always been so admiring Einstein's procedure in general relativity of starting with a very simple physical remark based on the Galileo discovery that bodies of different mass fall at the same rate in the gravitational field of the earth.
He made a simple physical hypothesis why that should be true.
A winner of the Fundamental Physics Prize, a $3 million prize recently established by Yuri Milner to... ...matter equivalent of the electron, the positron.
So this is him or... A particle like the electron but with the opposite electric charge.
So this was actually the discovery of antimatter.
The most basic property of antimatter is that matter-antimatter pairs can be created and annihilated.
In this picture, time is running horizontally.
What I'm sketching, the purple wiggly lines are meant to be photons.
Physicists often, in drawing so-called Feynman diagrams, use wiggly lines to indicate photons.
Here, two photons are annihilating into an electron-positoron pair.
So photons are as close to pure energy as it gets, And they can be converted to matter, that is, into anti-matter-matter pairs.
So he came onto the scene and started telling us how everything was going to fit together.
And nobody had ever heard a story like this.
This is, by the way, lost to history because we fictionalized what happened with string theory.
This person was so far ahead that nobody wanted to contradict him.
He said this was the way.
You know, there are five string theories or whatever there are, six, four, I can't remember.
And it's going to be one of them and in 10 years we'll have the whole thing wrapped up.
And everybody wanted to be on the winning team knew that they weren't going to go up against this because they couldn't even figure out how he was doing what he was doing.
And what was really going on was very different than people understood.
Quantum field theory, which is now claimed by most physicists to be the most advanced theory we have, at the time was sort of a grab bag of different techniques.
You know, just like not unified.
He saw that this was effectively a coherent whole with help from a couple of other people who are often not as well acknowledged, one of which would be Michael Attia, another of which would be Graham Siegel, another of which would be Dan Quillen, and my good friend and postdoctoral advisor, Isidore Singer.
So there was sort of a small cabal of people who figured out That quantum field theory was not only a coherent story.
It didn't really have to do with physics at all.
It was like calculus.
You can use calculus to do physics.
In fact, you can't do physics without it.
But you can also use calculus to optimize inventory and make your profits go up.
And so, as a result, quantum field theory was discovered not to be physical.
It was a framework that one physical input to that machine probably generates the world.
But the machine itself isn't about physics.
So this was the most romantic backfiring in the history of physics in a certain sense.
These guys set out to say, we are going to quantize gravity.
In other words, quantize geometry.
The geometry of Einstein and Riemann.
And what happened was exactly the reverse.
They gravitized the quantum.
They geometrized the quantum.
So it's been a remarkably productive – the reason we can say how brilliant this person is is because he geometrized the quantum at a level that we didn't know was possible.
On the other hand, he never made contact with physical reality the way he was expecting and promising to do.
So he's both – The most accomplished of us and the person who drove physics the most off of the road.
And if you attempt to give him his due and you don't – if you're not comfortable citing both of these things, you can't be an accurate historian, but he's still running around and nobody wants to go up against him.
He's born in 1951, so he'll be turning 72, I think, later this year, if I'm not mistaken.
And then we get to the really crazy part.
Quantum gravity is really due to two families.
One is a husband and wife team, and the other is a father-son.
The husband and wife team were named Bryce DeWitt, formerly, I think, Bryce Seligman.
Don't know why he changed his name.
And his wife, Cecile DeWitt or Cecile DeWitt Moret.
And the father-son team was Louis Witten, who is still alive, now 101 years old, and Edward Witten.
And then the really weird stuff happens.
And this is why I was curious about UFOs and gravity and all this stuff.
The actual genesis of these two families having this outsized impact on the future of theoretical physics comes from two different people who are almost never talked about.
Matter of fact, most physicists have no idea their names.
One is named Agnew Bainson and the other is named Roger Babson.
And these two guys were deep into anti-gravity.
So the world's greatest mind and greatest living theoretical physics mind is the Sun, of the most prominent anti-gravity researcher, I swear, I kid you not, from the 1950s.
And in order to understand this hugely productive period relative to the stagnation, the stagnation is incredibly high prestige.
Like, most of the positions at the Institute for Advanced Study, the top physics department ostensibly in the world, right?
You had a director named Robert Dijkgraaf, string theorist.
You had Edward Witten, string theorist.
Natty Seiberg, string theorist.
Juan Maldesena, string theorist.
And you had this guy, Nima Arkani-Hamed, who I hope you will have on this program, who is amazing, who is not a string theorist, but very string sympathetic.
This thing dominated.
It just took over.
And this weird genesis of a high-prestige field that can't accomplish what it's setting out to accomplish is in contrast to this mixed period between 1953 and 1973, where you have the world's most prestigious physicists palling around with pseudoscience.
UFO type stuff, gravity shielding, all this stuff.
So Babson is so crazy.
You can't even believe the story is true.
But he claims that his sister drowned in a pond because even though she was a good swimmer, she couldn't overcome gravity.
So gravity becomes his sworn enemy.
And he's going to use his fortune that he's gotten from predicting the crash of 1929 because of Newton's laws.
What goes up must come down so it gets out of the stock market six months early.
Babson makes a fortune.
He, Edison, and Clarence Burdi of frozen food, you know, fame, form this sort of little intellectual collective where they're going to defeat gravity.
So, for example, just because people are going to say, Eric, this is all nonsense, and it isn't.
Jamie, is it possible to pull up a stone monument at Tufts University to the anti-gravity that was done there?
So put in Tufts stone anti-gravity.
This guy littered universities all across the country with these monuments to prove that this anti-gravity stuff was actually taking place at American universities.
He established an essay contest.
All right, so check this out.
This monument has been directed by the Gravity Research Foundation, Roger Babson, founder, to remind students of the blessings of forthcoming when science determines what gravity is and how it works and how it may be controlled.
This is about UFOs and the idea that we are going to harness the power of gravity and we are going to get a supreme advantage.
No, hugely embarrassing because it carries the stench of pseudoscience.
See, when people don't like me coming on your program and saying things that nobody else in the world is saying, they call me a pseudoscientist or that's crackpot.
And these words, like, you don't take them that seriously.
We had this discussion before with, like, Tim Dillon saying something about me.
You know, what has he ever done?
Academics play these games with each other where we try to push each other out of the ring like sumo wrestlers.
And the way you push somebody out is you say, oh, that guy's a crack body.
He's a grifter.
He's a pseudoscientist.
He's nutty.
He's a nutter.
Bullshit.
This was the marriage of the ultimate nuttiness with the highest prestige physics we know how to do.
In the middle of the 1950s, this is mainstream in newspapers, but, for example, Bryce DeWitt...
So here's how the two stories cross.
You start off with Babson and Bainson.
They're the money.
Babson found something called the Gravity Research Foundation in New Boston, New Hampshire, and he gets the Glenn L. Martin Company, which is the precursor of Martin Marietta, precursor of Lockheed Martin.
Lewis Whitten is a respectable physicist who takes the position and forms something called the Research Institute for Advanced Study.
Now, you've probably heard of Bell Labs or Xerox PARC, and you probably haven't heard of the Research Institute for Advanced Study.
Yet, this has illustrious names associated with it.
Solomon Lefschetz, the great topologist, comes out of retirement to work on this anti-gravity-inspired project.
Rudolf Kallmann of Kallmann Filtering.
There's no shortage.
Sheldon Glashow, who discovers spontaneous symmetry breaking under Julian Schwinger at Harvard, is attached to the Research Institute of Advanced Study.
It has a campus in Baltimore, Maryland that, you know, I can tell you the address at some point.
We pretend that it didn't happen and doesn't exist.
But, for example, if you were to look at Brown University, Brown University has something called the Center for Nonlinear Dynamics.
And the Center for Nonlinear Dynamics is the spinout from the Research Institute of Advanced Study of Solomon Lefshet, the great topologist's work on nonlinear, you know, like chaos theoretic dynamical systems.
So it's this marriage of utter madness and kookiness with top drawer white shoe respectability.
So this was my puzzle.
About UFOs.
What was this anti-gravity thing between 53 and 73?
And the reason it ends in 1973 is a guy named Mike Mansfield, I think of Montana as a senator, passes something called the Mansfield Amendment, which discontinues Army or Department of Defense military funding for blue sky research inside of our universities.
This is what caused us to be the envy of the effing world.
Cowboy science.
We were wild, okay?
We had skirt-chasing, hard-drinking, charismatic, brilliant human beings who answered to no one and walked around with swagger with their shoulders back and their chest puffed out.
Because around Sputnik, we wanted the best of the best to go into science.
Around 1973, we discontinue this.
We start talking about Golden Fleece Awards.
How did you waste the taxpayers' money?
And we become incapable of equaling the performances.
We worship Ted Williams because nobody's turned in a Ted Williams-style performance in ages.
Even Ed Witten can't do it.
In any era before this, Ed Witten would have won a Nobel Prize.
The guy, six months older than he is from 1951, a guy named Frank Wilczek, who won the Nobel Prize, even being a tiny bit older than Ed Witten, you know, Frank is brilliant, but he's not Ed Witten-like.
He got a Nobel Prize for something called asymptotic freedom in strong interactions.
This newfound Impotence.
Let's just call it impotence.
It's like you turned the world's most vital people into castrati.
And you did it by accounting for their dollars, making them say how everything they did had a practical application, defending the purpose of blue sky research as if they were wasting taxpayer dollars.
They got called welfare queens in white lab coats.
The whole thing is completely ridiculous.
But we have been in the process of dismantling the world's most productive, powerful scientific enterprise from really 1968. 5 or 73 till the present day.
And the 65 dates from Ghislaine Maxwell's father.
Robert Maxwell is basically the son of a bitch who introduced peer review, which had only really been strong in the biomedical literature, into general science because he figured out how to make a fortune hacking the universities.
If you're a university, if you want to have a complete library, you have to buy all the journals that paper is appearing.
So he said, great news.
I'll jack up the prices and jack up the number of journals.
I'll just explode the number of journals.
And every university that doesn't want to be incomplete has to buy my product.
So suddenly there weren't enough good editors to edit all of these tiny microjournals, you know, Journal of Hyperspecific Thing X. So peer review comes screaming in, in 1965, through his company, Maxwell's company called Pergamon Press.
So Ghislaine Maxwell's father is like the first major attack on science.
And then the Mansfield Amendment comes in.
There's something called the Eilberg Amendment in 1973. In 1980, there's something called the Bayh-Dole Amendment.
Then there's the Immigration Act of 1990. And we're just chipping away at the vitality of American cowboy science.
So right now, if you go into a science department, the whole question is, well, what have you done for diversity, inclusion, and equity?
You know, let's agree that there's no lone geniuses in the world, as if we didn't have Einstein and von Neumann and Teller and all these people.
Everything is communal.
Everything is in the air.
It's like nobody wants to work in this environment.
Nobody good.
Right?
So whatever it is, we have been devitalizing certainly since 1973 for 50 years but also really since 1965. How do you turn that boat around though?
We're doing whatever we can.
Like, if you're rich and you're smart and you're connected, if you're part of some secret program and you're watching this, please reach out to the Joe Rogan experience or Eric Weinstein to turn the ship around.
But let's keep going because I want to get to the UFOs again.
So my question was, what is going on with anti-gravity, UFOs, the world's smartest human beings between 1953 and 73?
Somebody help me out.
Why two families, the DeWitts and the Wittons?
And let me give you the reason that I didn't want to touch this subject.
The reason I didn't want to touch this subject has to do with something I learned from World War II. So you probably know the codename for D-Day?
There was a companion thing called Operation Bodyguard.
And in particular, Operation Fortitude, which was inside of Operation Party Guard, which was the planned invasion of Norway, which was never going to happen.
But we faked an entire invasion of Norway because we had a troop buildup in England that was going to be headed into a very narrow place and was going to be outgunned by the Germans.
So how do you get all of these people who have to fight, who have loose lips, probably going off and seeing prostitutes?
Who knows?
Not to blow, spill the beans on D-Day.
Well, you create an entirely fake invasion of Norway.
Is it possible to bring up Operation Fortitude just to see a map of this thing?
So they faked radio chatter.
They had inflatable tanks.
I think there were army divisions that didn't exist.
So why do I want to get involved with Operation Fortitude?
I'm a patriotic American.
If we're going to lie about stuff and we're doing it for a good purpose and it's not hurting anybody, I don't want to get involved and say, I'm so smart I can figure it out.
So there was this weird thing that happened where we announced through the New York Times that this stuff may be more real than anyone cared to imagine.
You know, and Jeremy Corbell was releasing these videos and who was leaking them, I don't know.
And the New York Times was authenticating.
And, you know, you get all of this, again, tons of ambiguity.
So everybody's decision tree blows out.
Nobody can think straight.
But I thought...
Oh no.
What if the old Feynman stories that I've been following are actually about something rather than about a deception?
So for example, Feynman has a story where he says, Hey, there was this guy who was giving physics lectures to aerospace engineers, and they didn't like him, so I had to go out to Buffalo.
I thought, Buffalo?
That's Curtis Wright.
You're going to Curtis Wright Aerospace.
And he's got another one about, you know, give me a dollar because somebody calls him up and says, give us the nuclear patents to, like, fission-driven planes and crazy stuff.
Yeah.
But Feynman is constantly telling us – he's got a story called It's Greek to Me where he shows up in North Carolina.
I can't remember whether he's supposed to go to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill or Greenville.
And he has to figure it out and he says, oh, I'm late to the conference.
There would be a bunch of people mumbling the words G-mu-nu.
It's a cute story about how clever Feynman is, which they all are.
But that was a conference sponsored by the Institute for Field Physics at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, sponsored by Agnew Bainson through Bryce DeWitt, who is the person who repurposed the Gravity Research Foundation essay, which is only supposed to be about harnessing gravity, antigravity, antigravity devices like UFOs.
And he said, well, if you really want to get to antigravity, you have to do it through quantum gravity.
Right?
Now, he did that, and then a couple of people from the Institute, it was Arnaud and Desser, entered and won this competition that had this stench about it, because it was, like, stigmatized.
You're going to enter a competition for anti-gravity devices?
Ha ha ha.
Oppenheimer says, wow, you guys won this by using the name of the Institute for Advanced Study.
You give the money back right now.
We're not going to touch pseudoscience.
The guys kept the money.
And then the floodgates opened and Penrose entered it.
Wilczek entered it.
Everybody and their mother, Martin Pearl, entered this competition.
Lots of Nobel laureates win it.
This is this marriage of total bullshit and And top drawer physics that the rest of us are not allowed to participate.
So if you want a weird model for how physics works, Think about diplomatic immunity, but in science.
You've got this group of people at the top who are allowed to engage in quackery.
They can hang out at Esalen and smoke dope and take LSD and go into sensory deprivation tanks like Feynman.
They can pal around with rich people who are talking about anti-gravity.
But the rest of us have to stay in our lane.
Well, that ends now.
Now that I've been contacted by people saying – Eric, Sam Harris and I were both contacted saying that there's a disclosure planned and it's got – there's big updates and we need you to communicate this news to the world.
Okay, there's something called the Wilson Memo, where there's a physicist who meets a general or an admiral, and the general or the admiral is trying to figure out, I think this is at EG&G, why is there some program that I'm not allowed to know about?
I have the highest clearances.
I have a need to know.
Like, sorry, we can't tell you.
He's talking to somebody named Eric W. Davis.
Eric W. Davis, so far as I can find...
Is the only person other than maybe Hal Puthoff who I've been able to talk to who speaks anything of these languages?
This is not a particularly famous physicist.
Hal Puthoff is an electrical engineer, I think a PhD in electrical engineering.
Eric W. Davis says to me, I said, is there nobody out here who speaks physics?
This doesn't make any sense.
And he says, well, you, Hal, and I are the three most technical people on this.
And one of them is into remote viewing and was a Scientologist.
So...
I'm just – imagine that you take your wife to the symphony, okay?
You're going to see Beethoven's seventh.
And you look at the string section.
Brass section's in place and the percussion is there.
And you look at the string section and it's a bunch of certified public accountants.
You're like, where are the violins?
Where are the violins?
Oh, no, no.
Actually, we have reporters for the AP. They're stringers.
That's not the same thing.
We have string theorists.
That's not the same thing.
This is simple.
I've been on this for three years, and I can't find anybody who speaks this language, which now that is a huge clue.
Imagine that you say that we've lost control of our airspace.
We're being menaced, threats to civilian aviation, military aviation.
They're seeing these things every day.
They defy the physical laws and there are no physicists anywhere to be found.
That smells like BS. Or it smells like a pathological level.
And Marco Rubio and Kirsten Gilderbrand, if you're out there, can you please find out why there are no technically competent people on an area of national security?
And please don't mumble the word stovepipe or need to know or sources and methods.
I mean, we had a Manhattan Project.
We staffed it with physicists.
You have a physics problem.
If these things are here, Joe, they are here from so far out of town or they are co-mingling with us on Earth.
I can't tell you which.
There are some reports that these things come screaming in from behind our satellites that are trained at Earth along non-ballistic trajectories.
I have no idea how to say this.
I'm talking all the time to Avi Loeb with the Galileo Project, trying to help him out.
He needs funding and he needs some ability to, you know, just if the government won't play ball, he's going to put out his own censors in places like Catalina Island, blanket the world, and he'll be able to say, we're seeing these things or we're not seeing these things.
But right now we have a puzzle that our government won't release information to its own scientific community.
And it reminds me of, you probably know Airplane, the movie.
Well, there's this point where they're trying to land this airplane with these people who aren't pilots.
He says, turn on the landing strip lights.
And it was Lloyd Bridges or somebody says, no, that's just what they'll be expecting.
Like he's trying to sabotage the people who are trying to land the plane.
Do you think this is because there's a level of secrecy that's attached to this technology and they've compartmentalized themselves to death and they've gotten themselves to a point where they don't know how to proceed further because they're preventing people from sharing information?
Which is one of the most important things about science, is that scientists get to share information and all work together to try to figure out what the problem is.
If you are faking UFOs, the last people you want are the world's most brilliant physicists.
You give them the data, they're going to say, oh, look, I see what you did.
You put a couple of flashlights with lasers into the sky and you can move them really quickly by the angle and that creates the illusion that something is zipping through the world.
Right?
If you are faking UFOs, if you're faking a UFOgasm, The last thing you want is theoretical physicists on the case.
So that would be one reason to clear them out.
Another reason would be bureaucracy.
You've got these rival groups.
They're all starved for money.
Nobody wants to invite somebody smarter than they are.
So the problem with a B-level and C-level players is that they're looking for DNF players so that they're not threatened.
That's another possibility.
A different possibility is that we do have a Manhattan Project.
And we don't know about it.
So, for example, we have a Manhattan project for decoding cryptographic messages.
And it's called the National Security Agency, NSA.
And it used to be called No Such Agency because we wanted to deny its existence.
But now we know it's got a giant building.
How do you know that it exists if nobody told you?
Well, you'd look at the number theory PhDs, and people who specialize in things like elliptic curves, and you would notice that a giant number of them after their PhDs disappear.
And you'd track to see, well, where do those people live?
Where do those names live?
Oh, they live in Virginia.
Okay.
So you'd start to get an idea.
Now, in the case of UFOs, if there was an anti-gravity project, which it's painful for me to even say these words, really what it would be is a post-Einsteinian physics project.
If you had a post-Einsteinian physics project, you would want three subspecialties for sure.
That would be differential geometry, which is the basis for originally general relativity, In 1976, 75, two guys named C.N. Yang and Jim Simons, who Jim Simons becomes the world's greatest hedge fund manager, figure out that quantum field theory is also based on geometry.
But it's a different version of differential geometry.
So that's one specialty that you would want.
Second specialty that you would want would be particle theory or high-energy physics, however you want to say that.
The third specialty you'd want is general relativity.
So if you wanted to detect whether we had a secret Manhattan project but it wasn't identifiable, I think we're good to go.
The two places that you would have a secret place would be Austin, which is the successor to the Institute for Field Physics at the University of Texas Austin Gravitational Group, General Relativistic Group, which has had John Archibald Wheeler, Steven Weinberg, Bryce DeWitt.
This is a powerhouse of a place that you happen to live in, and you should have these people who are the successors to these people on, because most of these people have died.
But the more spectacular place would be Sawtucket, Long Island.
The State University of New York at Stony Brook has an astounding collection of monster mines.
And it's not highly regarded as a university.
I mean, it's strong, but you would have no idea how strong this place is.
It's got multiple Fields Medalists, It's got an institute called the Simon Center for Geometry and Physics.
Sien Yang, who's arguably the greatest living theoretical physicist, is at this university.
He's 101 years old, so he's pretty much on his way out, but this is where he's called home.
And it's not advertised as the powerhouse that it is.
So shout out to the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
If I was going to locate a Manhattan Project in plain sight and get U.S. News and World to report this as a minor player in research, that's where I'd go.
But more importantly, and this is the really weird thing, and again, I don't want to spread this as a rumor, but I am saying...
If you wanted to imagine that the government wasn't incompetent and we actually had great people on this project, my friend and advisor who's now died, Isidore Singer, once said to me, he said, the world's greatest mathematics and physics department is renaissance technologies.
I said, what?
Didn't make any sense to me.
It's great people, but it's a hedge fund.
Okay, so you've got this weird thing where you've got three basic institutions that are very closely intertwined.
You've got Brookhaven National Laboratory.
You've got State University of New York at Stony Brook, a mid-level university with an out-of-this-world math and physics program.
And you've got a hedge fund that makes more money than anybody can possibly imagine.
There used to be four fortunes in hedge funds that didn't make any sense.
One was D.E. Shaw, one was Bernie Madoff, one was Jeff Epstein, and one was Renaissance Technologies.
Wow.
And I guessed that Bernie Madoff had a legitimate business and an illegitimate business, and he was front-running the legitimate business with his illegitimate business.
So he was effectively stealing from his own clients in one division.
One was the theft, one was the dupes.
I got that wrong.
He was just running a Ponzi scheme, so shame on me.
But I was giving talks about, you know, there's BlackRock and Blackstone as investment groups.
And I was going around in the early 2000s talking about Black Arts Capital.
I would give talks on Black Arts Capital.
We'd tell you what we're doing, but we'd have to kill you.
And that was a reference to Madoff and Epstein, because Epstein's fortune made no sense.
Renaissance has existed in its medallion fund for decades, has turned in a performance never seen by anything else remotely, effectively just a money printing machine.
No one knows how it works.
I've met with Jim Simons one-on-one for three hours, and because his wife is an economist, my wife is an economist, I'm a differential geometer, he's a differential geometer, I gave him this entire theory that all of modern neoclassical economics is actually differential geometric.
Three hours later, he's been chain-smoking, smokes like a chimney, never wears socks, very eccentric guy, brilliant as the day is long, still alive, go get him for a guest.
He says, well, Eric, that's brilliant.
If you knew what we were actually doing, you'd be very disappointed.
LAUGHTER He said, I never thought of this.
Now, a little while later, I don't know if you know who Brian Keating is.
He's a professor at UCSD. He's an experimentalist.
Jim is basically his uncle.
And he calls me out to Santa Barbara.
And Jim is having dinner at his brother's house.
And what you guys don't know about Jim Simons is that with a guy named S.S. Churn, he came up with something called the Churn-Simons Function or Churn-Simons Functional.
Where if you differentiate this thing, the way you differentiate the Einstein-Hilbert functional, you get an equation that looks very similar to the Einstein field equation for gravity, only it looks a lot more like particle theory.
So I told Jim, I said, I don't know if you know this or you don't know this, but I think you're sitting on top of of a piece of the puzzle that supersedes general relativity.
And on the spot, he asked me whether I wanted to come out to the State University of New York at Stony Brook for a year to work on this.
We had a very technical conversation.
Jim Simons is potentially, I mean, beyond brilliant, But also has a claim on a part of what I believe is going to supersede general relativity by imitating the Einstein-Hilbert action from which the Einstein field equations are derived.
This thing generates something which you would call the Chern-Simons equation.
Ed Witten gets the Fields Medal for quantizing this thing that looks like gravity but is actually sort of particle theoretic.
And I can't get into it because we don't have the common language to do it.
This is huge stuff.
What's going on at Stony Brook?
What has happened is Stony Brook is ground zero for the explosion in mathematical physics that came through something called the Wu-Yang Dictionary, where suddenly the quantum became as geometric as general relativity.
Then it got more geometric through something called geometric quantization.
Then it got more geometric through something called geometric quantum field theory, or topological quantum field theory, or conformal quantum field theory.
First of all, I would correct this thing in a million different ways.
But you see the Atiyah-Singer index theorem, equation for the curvature tensor, Maxwell's equations in geometric form, written out in differential form, equations for string theory...
This thing, E8, the 248 largest simple league group in the world, this is like almost a religious pilgrimage site.
D A star of F A at the bottom of the ellipse equals zero is only the vacuum equation.
I would put in a term called J. Above that, you see Dim-Ker-D. This is the Atiyah Singer.
Remember, Isidore Singer.
That thing should be expanded to something called the Atiyah-Potodi Singer Index Theorem for Manifolds with Boundary.
Above that, you see the Dirac equation, id slash minus m times psi equals zero.
Actually, if I'm correct, it should be a hybrid between the Rurita-Schwinger and the Dirac equations based on a three-complex tensor with a spinner.
Above that, you have a non-relativistic equation, which is the Schrodinger equation, because there's only one derivative in terms of t, but there's that nabla, that triangle squared, which is Different in terms of space, so you can't treat space and time asymmetrically.
Above that, you have the Einstein field equations, R mu nu minus one-half R times g mu nu.
There should be a cosmological constant in there, which is missing.
To the right, you have the E8 diagram, should be the Titz-Freudenthal magic square.
So I don't know whether this is like a Straussian communication in the sense that if you're smart enough, you should know that there are tons of Errors, limitations, and bad choices.
Somebody hired somebody to do something impressionistic and it got too far in the process, carving Indiana limestone before they figured out that you should really do this better.
But this is gorgeous and it's the only place in the world This is my language, Joe.
If you ask, like, what language does Eric speak and why does he act weird when he comes on my show?
So my question is, is there some – do we have a project?
If it's not – if we're not doing something in Sawtucket or we're not doing something at the University of Texas at Austin, I'm worried we're not doing something anywhere.
I went to the Institute for Advanced Study to visit friend acquaintance, Nima Arkani Hamed, who I think very, very highly of.
He said some pretty wild things.
He should be on the show.
He's the most bizarre thing in that he's an unbelievable salesman showman who's pathologically honest in a weird way.
So that's very unusual characteristics.
He made the point, he said, the Casimir effect is an example of negative energy, negative mass energy, where you take two plates that are so close together that quantum waves...
Many of the frequencies can't fit between these two plates, and so the pressure outside of them is not counterbalanced by pressure between them, so they get forced together when they're very, very close.
And his point is, that's an example of actual negative mass, negative energy, where we pretend that that's not true.
He says geckos actually use this when they climb up a wall.
They use the Casimir effect.
So it's real.
Now, the question, can you harness it?
This is always that, you know, you've got UFOs.
People who try to think about how you could get physics to do these things focus on the Casimir effect, or they'll focus on negative energy solutions.
Now, if you look at that 1957 conference at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, one of the most eminent mathematician physicists, a guy who was first Wrangler at Cambridge, was a guy named Herman Bondi, an Austrian, I think, Mathematician.
And his paper is about negative mass in general relativity.
Now, I don't know if you've ever heard of this stuff.
If you have two masses, in general, they always attract each other gravitationally.
But what if somehow you had a different kind of mass that was negative, just like you could have negative and positive charges?
Well, weirdly, you change two things.
You change the force law, F equals MA, and you change the gravitational law, G, you know, F equals GM, first mass times second mass over R squared.
So when you change both of those, oddly, the negative mass is still attracted just the same way to the positive mass as if there was no difference.
But the positive mass is always repelled.
So you get this weird solution where the negative mass chases the positive mass And they go off to like, you know, unbounded acceleration.
So Bondi was thinking about why is it that we've got these artificial conditions in general relativity, which we impose by hand.
They're not the same beautiful marble that Einstein used for his field equations, but we throw some extra crappy stuff in called positivity conditions to stop general relativity from giving us madness.
So Bondi started asking the question, Maybe we shouldn't.
Maybe what you think of his madness has meaning.
And this is why this conference, which is a confluence of the two families, the Wittens and the DeWitts, with Feynman and Wheeler and all of these unbelievable characters and attendants, Is this pivotal, strange experience, is that people are smoking the ganja on extending general relativity to places that it's never been extended.
And the highbrow version of this doesn't work, and the lowbrow version of this doesn't work so far as we know.
The lowbrow version is called pseudoscientific antigravity, gravity shielding.
Electrogravitics.
Gravitodynamics.
The highbrow version of this is called quantum gravity.
And all the most respectable people are in it, and it doesn't work.
And you can't say, why are we doing this if it doesn't work?
Why can't I say Ed Witten's great, but he made a terrible blunder?
David Gross and Ed Witten should be in front of the community explaining, why did you take all the smartest people, all the resources, all the attention, Michio Kaku.
Like, I had this interchange with Brian Greene where I said, you know, we're not being honest.
About the failure of string theory.
And Brian's like, oh, well, maybe we were a little bit exuberant.
I blurt out Institute for Arts and Ideas.
I blurt out.
That's like saying my lie.
My lie was irrational exuberance.
No, you put a lot of people's careers in the shredder in order to have this quantum gravity experiment, which is like, you know, the people bowing and praying to this thing that doesn't work.
The dog doesn't hunt.
And anybody who questions it as a crackpot, I'm done with this, Joe.
Like, you want to come at me and say, Eric doesn't know what he's talking about?
I'm debating physicists.
I'll debate anybody with the possible exception of Ed Witten, who still scares me, but I'll probably debate him too.
In open forum, we have got to purge The physics community of its quackery, and the quackery is coming from the high-prestige version of this.
The high-prestige version of antigravity is called quantum gravity, and it just doesn't work.
So, to get back to the UFOs, why is this stuff important?
One, I don't know, four years, five years ago, and I was doing this riff on the twin nuclei problem.
I said, we've got to get off this planet.
I said, we've now become God's butt for the wisdom, and I just threw it off.
And you said, focus on that.
That's a great saying.
Turned out to work.
That came true.
The COVID in your lungs probably came out of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and we're lying about it.
That is engineering the nucleus of the cell, the nucleic acids that we found the structure of in their functions.
Right now, we are screwing around with Vladimir Putin, with nukes, pretending that the sacred borders of Ukraine, which have been fluctuating for centuries, are somehow sacrosanct.
And yes, it's terrible that he's invaded.
And I do think that the borders shouldn't move, but we really shouldn't have been antagonizing Russia by pretending that there's no concept of a sphere of influence, because I'll tell you, when somebody puts nukes on our border with Mexico in Monterey or Baja, California, we're going to be plenty upset.
We now need to leave.
And I tried to say that kind of a little bit light, tongue in cheek.
Everything's accelerated.
Think about our water having broken in the last three years.
This is our womb.
It's time to go.
And in order to have any hope of getting off this planet, you can't leave it to Elon and chemical rockets.
Can you imagine that Elon and I do not meet ever?
It's like we know a million people in common.
He knows that I'm focused on getting off this planet.
He's got a chemical rocket company.
He's exactly right about almost everything that he's saying up until he gets to the Moon and Mars.
Like, who cares?
You're not going to terraform the Moon and Mars in the next three years or 30. The only way to really get off this planet is to leave the solar system because those are the only two rocks that are even halfway viable.
And if you think about how far away everything is, we've got this thing that I call the Einstein moat.
The nearest star, if we took a human traveling at the top speed a human has ever gone at, I think is 100,000 years away at that top speed.
So you can fantasize about, oh yeah, we just come up with huge ships and people have multi-generational experience.
All of Jewish history is 5,000 years and you're talking about 100,000 years.
So it's like all these sort of weird edgy stuff inside.
Here's what's really happening.
We do not live in space-time.
This place is not in space-time.
There's a saying, the map is not the territory.
Space-time is a map.
But the territory is wherever we actually live.
And space time has so many limitations on it that Newton never placed.
So the longer we stay with no advancement in the general theory of relativity, the more we feel that we are imprisoned here.
We're not going anywhere.
It's all sci-fi.
It's all garbage.
It's children talking about things that aren't true.
Well, bullshit.
Every time you fundamentally push physical theory, you better figure out whether you've got a new neutron or worse, or better.
You're gonna get a lever.
Now, my claim, and so everything I've said up until now has been idiosyncratic research, but you can check it online.
None of this is something you can't check.
I'm now going to put on a different hat when you ask me about you, Eric, because people are going to say crank, crazy, whatever.
I'll meet you on the field of battle.
Cut the crap, people.
I am a post-Einsteinian person.
I have not been in a relativistic context for years.
And the reason that you get to leave relativity is that you recover relativity from another theory.
If you have a theory that includes relativity, You can say, okay, yeah, I know how to see relativity inside the theory, but I can also see other stuff beyond it.
And so that's where I work, someplace called geometric unity, because the geometry underneath the standard model and the geometry underneath general relativity is two different geometries called Riemannian and Erismanian.
I combined them.
That was the point of it.
In this thing, there's a very clear idea about how you would go about traveling great distances.
And so I found that you still have this thing from the last time I was here two years ago.
So this is a model of a space-time metric.
And if you think about where these hair ties are on the two rulers...
So you gave Lex a watch, and I started talking about multiple time dimensions, so I gave him my Fitbit.
Anyway.
If you want to go a very long distance, one possibility is that you do something very energetically expensive.
But the other possibility is grow the ruler to shrink the distance.
If the rulers and protractors that Einstein used, and he chose one through his equation, are instead variables and you have full access to them, if I wanted to go a very long distance, the first thing I'd do is grow the ruler to shrink the distance, then go the distance under that ruler, and then I'd shrink the ruler back.
So when you talk about things like, oh, these things are behaving like nothing I've ever seen, Well, there are a couple of things that I'm worried about if these things are real.
One is, does somebody else know how to grow rulers and shrink rulers and grow watches and shrink watches, speed them up, slow them down, in order to get in control of the thing that we thought was space-time?
The next issue is, are there multiple temporal dimensions?
So Eric, your friend who's had too much coffee, believes that there are either six or four extra temporal dimensions, and whatever isn't temporal is spatial.
So it's either four plus six or six plus four extra dimensions split between time and space.
If that's true, try to imagine Extra-dimensional engineers who have full access to something where there's no arrow of time.
The only time there's an arrow of time is if time is one-dimensional.
If time is two-dimensional, you have a whirlpool of time, which is either clockwise or counterclockwise.
If it's three-dimensional, you have a right-hand rule of time, and there's a left-hand rule of time.
These are called orientations.
My belief is That we may be looking at something that has access to either four or six additional dimensions.
And again, I'm reading this off of a page of equations and notes.
And so you know what they mean in physical reality.
In other words, if this thing on the page is true...
Holy shit.
On the other hand, if it's just some geometry, then you don't worry about it.
You say, okay, well, extra dimensions.
I can think in 17 or 3 or what.
It doesn't matter.
It's not that hard to think of higher dimensions spatially for people who do what I do.
Almost none of us can think in multiple temporal dimensions.
There's one guy in Los Angeles at USC called Yitzhak Barz, a Turkish Jew, who keeps talking about two-time physics.
And I've spoken to him.
But multiple temporal dimensions would be a decisive game changer in terms of changing everything that we know about the world.
But the first part of it is where we're trying to fit gravity and when we quantize it.
I don't think gravity goes in that slot.
I think that what you do is you don't quantize gravity, you harmonize gravity.
Gravity is the observer.
We say, well, when you make an observation, well, who's doing the observation?
Is Joe doing the observation?
Is Jamie doing the observation?
Who's doing this observation?
Who has the right to use the second rule for collapsing the state vector with Schrodinger's cat and all entanglement weirdness?
Well, I think it's gravity.
I think that part of the story is that gravity is the observer through something called a pullback operation.
And when you realize that, you realize that you don't naively quantize gravity the way you quantize everything else.
In fact, gravity is the only field living on the successor to spacetime, if I'm correct.
There are two spaces called X and Y. All the cool stuff in here, the electrons, the quarks that make up everything that you and I are, It's living on Y, except for the metric, the rulers and the protractors, which lives on X, which is how you keep gravity separate.
And the unification is the unification of these two things in a structure called a bundle.
Now, people will go over this, and I'm sure professors will say, well, this is what Eric was saying.
Well, he's full of shit.
No, no, no, he's actually making a point.
This story about space-time engineering where you don't use the Einstein field equations because you're using the successor theory rather than...
In the Einstein theory, the entire planet was pulling on you when you needed to go pee.
And your legs, I mean, they're obviously buff, you're fit.
You just pulled against an entire planet to get out of your chair.
And you won.
That's how weak gravity is.
That's how space and time is barely bent by all of Earth.
Now, you're going to tell me about an Alcubierre warp drive where, okay, no, here's what's going on.
The ship is inside of this little bubble of warping.
No, it isn't.
If somebody's space-time engineering and they can get here from very far away, they're not using general relativity in the standard model, my friends.
They're using a successor theory and we have become pussies.
We are not going to look at successor theories because we've all learned the lesson that everybody who tries to bet against the standard model loses.
Everybody who bets against general relativity loses.
And this is that speech that Morpheus has to give.
It's like, I'm not going to lie to you, Neo.
Everyone who's ever faced an agent who stood his ground, you know, has died.
It's like, okay, tough shit.
Now it's time.
Are we Americans?
Are we scientists?
Are we cowboys?
Or, you know, Please tell me we're Travis Pastrana and not some sort of diversity, equity, and inclusion committee.
But I know that if I were the federal government, if I was the Department of Energy, and if I were DARPA, and if I were any of these people, and somebody went on the Joe Rogan experience with millions of viewers and listeners, And started talking like this, I would call them up.
One of the last times I went on, not the last time, but the time before that, the FBI called me immediately.
If we are faking a UFO situation, do you think that there's technology that's available to people in the United States that is beyond our current understanding of what's possible?
So, if You think 90% sure that this is not coming from here?
You believe this because you don't think that the proper science in order to achieve these kind of results is being done by the people that you believe are capable of doing it?
I know that, for example, when I talk to Nima or when I talk to Juan Maldesena or when I've talked to Natty Cyberg, these people are absolutely brilliant and they don't know the answer unless they're the greatest actors I've ever seen.
They're not talking about things that can extend Einstein.
Therefore, to get back to your technology question, might have engineering applications, because it's the engineering applications that are terrifying.
The discovery of the neutron was one thing.
The Teller-Ulam design was its weaponization.
So suddenly, you know, you can do the Tsar bomb or Castle Bravo, these unbelievable explosions, which...
Like, the difference between...
There were Civil War veterans who saw action in the Civil War who lived to see Ivy Mike in the Pacific.
So the Civil War was almost a thermonuclear war in terms of human scale.
People have forgotten how terrifying, important, wonderful, jaw-dropping and awesome physics is because it hasn't done anything that completely screws your mind.
That was the test in the Pacific where we thought it was going to be like controlled and like or was starfish where we did an atmospheric explosion over Hawaii and then the Russians like hold my beer.
Yeah.
You know, we remember I'm the guy five years ago who was saying we need above-ground nuclear tests because all you people have lost your fear like yes Eric is crazy, but he's correct.
So the question is, you know, the analogy I give, so I talked to Avi about the following thing.
I am a fan of something I call the doubly scientific method.
The usual scientific method makes a hidden assumption that it never voices, which is if we're going to study orcas, we assume that we are smarter than orcas.
Or if we're going to study cephalopods, right, like an octopus, we think we're smarter.
And what do we do?
We disguise ourselves.
We create artificial environments.
We do all sorts of crazy things based on the fact that we're smarter than what we study, from everything from rocks to orcas.
The doubly scientific method says, okay, assume that you're studying a rat in a maze, but you yourself are the rat in somebody else's maze.
Now you have to look up the intelligence scale, not just down.
And in the doubly scientific method, you have to assume that whatever is studying you is hiding from you the way you are hiding from your subjects.
So if you see somebody in a duck blind, for example, and he's studying ducks, you understand that somebody may be hiding from you.
And they might be able to use multiple dimensions of time.
They might be able to cloak themselves and disguise themselves.
Or, for example, if you take microscopic UFOs, this glass, this cup, It has a radius of r and a circumference of 2 pi r.
The disk that it spans is pi r squared in area.
But if you look at this cup, it's much larger than pi r squared because we pushed it out.
You could have a sphere where if you could cheaply engineer spacetime, not through the Einstein field equations, but through the successor theory that recovers Einstein, you could have an entire stadium inside of a tennis ball.
Just the way this cup doesn't blow your mind until you realize that its area is much greater than pi r squared.
Why look for a giant floating thing in the sky?
If you could bend space and time and you could play with the rulers the way I'm saying, I would put this in a tiny little profile.
So we're only looking at it in terms of our understanding of the distance between objects, planets, gravity.
We're looking at that.
All that stuff where if it didn't exist.
If somehow or another we lived in some contained environment and we had no concept of space whatsoever and then we gained access to it, we would be unbelievably overwhelmed.
If you lived in some sort of underground facility your entire life and then one day you got a chance to go outside and see the Keck Observatory in Hawaii in a clear night with no moon, you would be overwhelmed.
You wouldn't be able to believe that the world was as big as it really was or that the universe was as big as it was.
If you watch meteor showers the way my family does, it's religious.
It's transformational.
It's transcendent.
The problem, as you know, from the default mode network, right, is that mostly what your brain is doing is not communicating information but screening information.
Your eyes, your fovea is precious because that's the thing that can resolve at very high levels.
But I can barely see Jamie out of the corner of my eye because my peripheral vision can't be at the same level as my fovea.
I'd be overwhelmed.
So we're talking about tapping in to a picture of the world that we are not...
Our brain is not prepared for the idea that time is multidimensional.
That was the whole point of giving Lex another watch.
We don't have a way to think about it.
I'll meet you at 5.15 and 12.30 according to two different scales of time.
Or, for example, time and space, if I'm correct, the 14-dimensional manifold that has all the quantum going on on it is split probably seven in seven dimensions because we have six extra time dimensions and four extra space.
Add six to one and three to four and you get seven.
So space and time are...
Interchangeable.
There's a duality between them.
All of this stuff is like, you know, okay, it's how you hit on chicks in a bar.
Hey, let me tell you something about space and time you never thought about.
So, do you think, now when you were talking about these people that keep manana-ing you and not giving you access to whatever they're talking about, do you think they're talking about some sort of an engineering solution to this type of technology?
Like, I do this entertainment thing, and I talk to people and all this stuff.
Bullshit.
Really what I am is an academic who realized that you can't do academics inside of the university system and watch it disintegrate into madness as we speak.
I figured this out a long time ago.
I want to know whether this is right or wrong so much better, so much more that I want to know whether UFOs exist.
UFOs to me are an indication of whether I'm right or wrong.
If we have a future, it means we can leave not the planet but the solar system.
The cosmos are traversable.
If we can leave, anything else can visit.
If you look at the entirety of the universe and you imagine that ultimately there are societies that destroy themselves because they get atomic weapons before they figure out how to leave, some societies are smarter than that.
And they'll be able to leave and colonize the cosmos.
And for them not to be here would be madness.
So if you've heard my analogy...
There is an island in the Andaman chain called North Sentinel Island.
We don't know if there's 39 or 300. They kill everybody who lands there, essentially.
There's a story that we actually buggered them.
An English person buggered them, which is why they don't want anyone landing.
There actually are some very weird videos where we throw them coconuts because coconuts don't occur in their island, and we actually have non-hostile contact.
But the most important part of it is India.
They do not know that they are claimed by something called India.
And they don't know that they have a Fermi problem because India won't let anyone land unless they break the law.
So the great filter of North Sentinel Island is a model for why don't we see anybody?
Why aren't we clear?
Does India exist at some sort of UFO level?
Now, this is the doubly scientific method.
You can laugh at it, but then would you laugh at the North Sentinelese who are smart enough to say, I wonder if there's another society that's screening everybody from landing here?
Now, what happens on North Sentinel Island if you're watching it and all these people with loincloths or no loincloths and spears and arrows and stupid stuff, suddenly you start hearing radio signals coming out of North Sentinel Island.
You're like, what?
Then you see a little mushroom cloud in the northeast of the island.
Then you see little boats that start exploring around that seem to be propelled internally.
You're like, are they burning the leaves?
Have they invented internal combustion?
At some point with the mushroom cloud, India says enough is enough.
We cannot afford to let the North Sentinelese be treated as some sort of backwards people who don't have anything developed that scares us.
Who's monitoring what's going on and they're not going to be infinitely patient if they exist.
Now, if that's true and we can leave and we can't civilize ourselves and we bring this mad technology with us, this ability to destroy, I personally feel responsible in a way that my colleagues don't.
They have these ideas like, oh, I'm a physicist.
It's just fun.
It's really interesting.
It's a bunch of puzzles.
My feeling is you doomed the human race and you don't feel responsible for building a lifeboat, for saving us, for like...
What kind of a sociopath are you?
Like, I'm not even a physicist, Joe.
And I feel responsible.
And this gets back, you know, to some weird stuff about...
They've crawled into the map, the prison built by Einstein.
And they know that it's not right.
Because there are these two singularities.
There's this singularity at the beginning of time, which we call the Big Bang, assuming that time were one-dimensional.
And it's part of something called the Friedman-Robertson-Walker space-time model.
And there's another one at the bottom of the black hole called the Schwarzschild singularity.
And the fact that space and time kink at these two points is an indication that we have something wrong to a mathematician or a physicist.
It says, your equations work pretty well right up into the point Where there's some error that you have that you don't understand and you have a division by zero error.
And if you could figure out your error, you don't know what sin you committed, but the way that you know you committed a sin is that you have a singularity.
So they know that there's some successor theory.
And they'll give lectures about space-time is doomed and I'm going to talk about non-commutative geometry.
But these are all ways of avoiding the fact that you haven't done your homework for 50 years.
Okay?
So like there's some class that you're supposed to show up to and you haven't been in a long time.
You don't want to show up and suddenly say, what?
What's going on?
That's what's happening.
They're living inside of Einstein's model.
So when you say something, they'll say, well, that's impossible because you can't go faster than the speed of light.
And it's like, That's a space-time concept.
That's an Einsteinian concept.
You're not thinking post-Einsteinian.
You're not thinking about recovering Einstein, or Einstein is what we would call an effective theory.
You're thinking that you really live in space-time, so you know what you can do.
And then you fold your arms and say, well, that's impossible.
It's like, no, you have a limited map.
You think that Greenland is the same size as South America.
So imagine for the moment – this goes back to – let me put my Eric, the science person, doing his own theory, right?
This is my thing that I tried to give you last time I was here.
If we imagine that there are two spaces, and one of them is 14-dimensional, and one of them is 4-dimensional, and gravity connects them, that is the metric, the gadget, think of a phonograph.
Okay, so you've got Doors 1, break on through to the other side, is on the same side as Soul Kitchen.
You don't hear Break On Through to the Other Side or Soul Kitchen simultaneously.
They're both there on the record.
The phonograph, imagine you're doing it on a Victrola somehow.
You're retro.
You're listening to that record in four dimensions, but it's a 14-dimensional record.
So you and I are playing back a 14-dimensional quantum world, but we're only playing back slices of it.
So the illusion is that we're having a four-dimensional conversation because the Victrola part, that phone, his master's voice, is the four-dimensional thing.
And what's the stylus?
It's the metric.
It's gravity.
The stylus is pulling off different data That is simultaneously existing.
So it's like the record is the multiverse, but you don't think of it in these terms.
You don't freak out and say, oh my god, I'm holding the multiverse because Light My Fire is somewhat adjacent to Soul Kitchen.
That is my structure.
That's what I believe is true.
And we're having the discussion as if it's only the phonograph, the Victrola part.
If you could then go to the record...
You don't have to scratch your way back.
You can do these weird moves where you can alight the stylus in different places and shrink things and grow things and change the angles and all this stuff.
And you have engineering possibilities.
I will say what I believe the internal properties of the particles that we have yet to find, the dark matter, if you will.
I will tell you places that I believe the standard model is wrong.
And I'm happy to go down on the ship and move on with my life if I'm wrong.
But I can't...
I've been 40 years trying to have this conversation with a competent person.
And every excuse under the sun is used to avoid talking about what I'm saying.
And I'll say some stuff that...
When I... In 1987 around, I proposed a set of equations that were like the junior version of geometric unity.
I was told that those equations were insufficiently nonlinear, that they involve spinners, and spinners have nothing to do with something called self-duality, that I'd violated the spin statistics theorem, a whole bunch of things.
And I was invited to leave Harvard.
Where they said, you have to move out of Massachusetts.
You cannot live in Massachusetts.
And I said, you don't have the right to tell me where I can live.
That's not part of our agreement.
They said, well, if you want to continue in this department, you have to move out of Massachusetts.
Ed Witten is giving a lecture in the main seminar room in Building 2 in the MIT Math Department, where I am now a postdoc under a National Science Foundation Fellowship.
So I had gone through huge trouble and I crawled back on top.
And Ed Witten says the self-duality revolution, which is related to Jim Simon's work, which I was saying before, He says, theoretically, you don't have to deal with these super complicated equations anymore.
He doesn't say what replaces them.
A guy named, I think, Alan Knudsen, who's now at Cornell, I think raises his hand like a punk and he says, do you want to tell us what equations we would use instead?
Ed Witten writes down these two sets – these set of two equations.
I look at them and I say, Those are the equations that I proposed at Harvard in like five years ago or seven years ago.
And I said, huh, that's really interesting.
He's about to get told that they're insufficiently nonlinear, that they involve spinners, which can't possibly involve self-duality, and that he's violated spin statistics.
And I'm looking forward to watching what happens when Ed Witten is told this.
A couple weeks later, I'm at the MIT commissary with Is Singer and the math physics group, and a guy named András Senes, a Hungarian brilliant guy, now in Geneva, I think, says, have you heard the news?
He comes by.
He says, what news?
All of Donaldson theory and self-dual equations is falling.
It's like, what?
It's like, they were using the wrong equations.
Everything has become trivially easy.
Can you bring up an article called Gauge Theory is Dead, Long Live Gauge Theory?
So, like, I didn't want to tell these stories the last time.
This is like super painful, but I'm done with this stuff.
I'm just completely done with this.
You see, there was this thing called the self-dual equations, which Isidore Singer brought to Michael Atiyah and Nigel Hitchin.
Oh, the other one was, if spinners were involved, Nigel Hitchin would know and he would have told us, which is bullshit.
Keep going to the next page.
The new gauge there.
You see those two equations?
DA of phi equals zero.
I had written psi rather than phi.
Phi has to do with...
The spin of the field.
But FA plus equals I. I had written these things down in a slightly different form and had been effectively laughed out of Harvard for this.
And it turns out that what was going on was Ed Witten had written these things down and now all of these people were converted.
And a lecture is given at room 507 in the Harvard Math Department on the fifth floor across from the office of a guy named Raoul Bott, who is absolutely not my advisor, but the internet is determined to make him my advisor.
It's making me really upset.
Raoul Bott is my hero, but he was not my advisor.
He's a great man, and you shouldn't do that to him, and you shouldn't do that to me.
So I go to this lecture, and the person giving it was really the closest thing I had to an advisor, if it's not a guy named Jor Barnatan, is the brother of somebody you've had on your program.
You've had Gary Taubes on your program.
His brother is named Clifford Taubes.
And Clifford Taubes had picked a fight with Princeton.
And he had said, you know, these guys at Princeton, we work our asses off to get these results in Donaldson theory.
These equations are so hard.
And then always after the fact, Princeton tells us what we're really doing.
Thanks, guy.
So it's a fight between Cambridge and Princeton.
And now he's got to eat crow.
Okay?
So he's giving this lecture and he titles it Witten's Magical Equations.
This is the same guy who tells me that I can't live in Massachusetts in 1987. And he's going on.
He's like saying, this is the greatest day of my life.
I was in prison.
I was working at hard labor for 10 years.
These equations make everything trivially easy.
I am sitting in the back row of room 507 picking my nose.
And a guy in the front seat on the right-hand side is named David Kajdan, one of the most brilliant people on the planet.
And he usually falls asleep during the lecture.
He's like a Soviet Jew who got through the anti-Semitic system at Moscow State.
Like, unbelievable mind.
unidentified
And he says, excuse me, Cliff, didn't we have a student at some point who told us to look at the spinner bundles and maybe these equations?
And Cliff goes white as a ghost, and I'm picking my nose, right nostril, and the entire room swivels and looks at me.
And then I realize, like, everybody actually remembers what I was saying, and my thesis is on the spinner bundles, all this stuff.
And I have this question, do I tell them the whole theory?
And I left mathematics at that moment.
I just decided, I can't trust you people.
Cliff knows the answer.
Cliff is supposed to say, you know, Eric told me to look at that.
And he won't do it.
He's sitting there giving the credit not even to Seiberg and Witten, who are the two people who do these equations.
He's giving the whole thing to Witten because he's scared.
Because he's apologizing.
He's saying, I screwed up.
I doubted you, Princeton.
Princeton was right.
Harvard was wrong.
New Jersey beats Massachusetts.
Tough shit.
That's the way it goes.
But Massachusetts actually had an entrant in that game, and that was me.
And then Isidore Singer writes somewhere in one of his papers, you know, I learned about this years ago before from Eric Weinstein, a paper with Cano and Ballyu.
So this was my trajectory.
This is why I left mathematics in part because I realized that there was just no honor.
There was no way of...
Making a name and – like people are just going to give away my stuff.
So when I did this draft of GU, I said I'm an entertainer.
People don't have any clue why.
It's because I have copyright protection.
If I release a work of entertainment, you can't just name it after yourself or your friend or whoever you're upset with.
It might hurt you.
It's like that's mine.
It's my work of entertainment.
I own the Portal podcast.
Tough shit.
Now, all that is long in the past.
I don't want the Cyborg-Witten equations, which is what they're now called.
Natty Cyborg and I have worked this out years ago at a meeting in San Francisco.
He got $3 million.
I forced him to give me a hug in front of the Institute for Advanced Study, call it even.
This is so much bigger than this.
Those things, the Cyborg-Witten equations, is the barest thumbnail of what's coming.
And If we don't use this stuff, we're doomed here with Xi and Biden and Kamala and Trump and Putin and Zelensky and Khomeini and all of these idiots.
What I work on, where I've disappeared, where's the portal?
You know, it's like...
Do you notice how everything that you love gets destroyed?
Jordan Peterson, Brett Weinstein, Sam Harris, even Lex Friedman.
They go after Lex Friedman after I warn Lex they're going to come for you because of his reading list and because they misportray him as if he's claiming to be an MIT professor, which he's never claimed in his life.
They destroy all of us if we don't sing from the hymnal.
This is so important to me because it's hope.
If I'm wrong, then maybe we don't have a way off this planet.
Maybe we don't have a way to the solar system, out of the solar system.
You would figure out how to do the stuff on the record rather than the phonograph, the Victrola.
You would start to move the space-time metric, you would move along the directions of the metric not using the Einstein field equations.
So you would try to figure out, okay, if we're in flatland here, a four-dimensional slice of a 14-dimensional world, how do I go what we – I have to say it in my own language – along the 10-dimensional normal bundle?
In other words, 14 equals four dimensions we know plus 10 we don't.
Call the 10 we don't the normal bundle.
You'd start navigating in the normal bundle.
You'd stop thinking about the sound coming out of the Victrola.
You'd say that's three components.
There's a stylus, there's a horn, and there's a record.
And you'd engineer around that so that you had a really efficient way to go very far or to circle back in time without going back through time.
You'd try to figure out, what can I do with the stylus?
Where can I put the stylus on the record to get different...
Well, so first of all, we know about three families of matter.
Like, this is made...
Everything you see around you is made of the first family of matter.
It's all up quarks, down quarks, electrons, and you and I are being penetrated, as much as that's very distasteful, by neutrinos.
That's the first family of matter, okay?
Then there's a second family, where the up and down quarks are replaced by charm and strange.
The neutrino is replaced by the muon neutrino.
The electron is replaced by the muon.
And then there's a third one, where the muon is replaced by the tau, top, bottom, and tau neutrinos, okay?
If I'm correct, there are two additional There are families of matter that are not generations.
They don't have the same structure as the ones we already know.
Some of them are something called spin three halves and some of them are exotic spin one half matter.
So first of all, if you have dark matter that you have no idea of, you can't do dark chemistry.
But if you do have an idea, then you can guess at what dark chemistry would be.
You'll have dark light.
Everything you see here is spun left-handed if it's matter and spun right-handed if it's antimatter.
My claim is we are decoupled from matter that spins right and antimatter that spins left, but in a low gravitational environment.
It's like my left and my right hand don't know each other.
So you have the asymmetry of a hand, which is you say, oh, digits two and four look like each other.
The middle finger is the axis of symmetry.
And unfortunately, the pinky and the thumb look wildly different.
But let's fudge it and imagine there's a symmetry.
Suddenly you realize neurologically you're disconnected and it's thumb to thumb on a different hand you didn't know anything about.
So my claim is I believe that this world that appears to have a left-handed or right-handed nature, like Cindy Crawford has a beauty mark so you know whether a photo is of her or her mirror image.
There's like another Cindy Crawford with the beauty mark on the other side.
Sorry, I'm dating myself, people.
But that world would have engineering possibilities to do dark chemistry.
We would have additional forces.
Normally, we get additional forces through something called grand unification, where we use theories called SU5 and spin 10 or SO10. And those are the wrong flavors of the right idea.
The right flavor would be called spin 6, 4, and SU5 would be replaced by SU3, 2. So there would be new unifications, new forces.
It would produce new problems, because when you put that comma, you know, 3, 2...
You create something that is more space-timey than particle physics.
So there's stuff we don't know how to deal with.
But you see, there's nothing in the laws of physics that say the rules of the universe will conform to what particle theorists currently know how to handle.
Nature seems to know things we don't know how to do.
And the time has ended for us to tell nature, you can't have this or you must have that because we don't know how to handle you otherwise.
Tough luck.
The forces are different.
The opportunities are different.
Something called the Petit Salam theory of grand unification is tied to the Einstein theory.
And what I want to do is to say, can I get people, lawyers, guns and money, To investigate this so that we can go traverse the cosmos.
I don't know how to do the engineering any more than the person who invented the neutron.
Was it Chadwick or was the one who found it?
He wasn't Lise Meitner who figured out the chain reaction and she wasn't Enrico Fermi who figured out how to do it experimentally.
That wasn't Trinity which was the Manhattan Project and they weren't Teller and Ulam.
So it's not on Eric to figure out how to do the engineering project.
So what wouldn't be involved is getting an entire planet to put a tiny dent in space-time, because that's not going to work.
It would be a question of saying, I know about more degrees of freedom.
Are those degrees of freedom accessible?
And to give you an idea of what's involved, if you take a proton with two up quarks and a down quark, so put two U's and a D inside of a ball you call a proton, you're tempted to say, okay, if those are hard little balls inside, I want to pull one out.
It doesn't work.
The equations have something that used to be called slavery, but we're not allowed to say the word slavery because of diversity, equity, inclusion.
I'm going to say slavery because I'm here.
You cannot pull a quark out of a proton.
So what looks like a degree of freedom is not accessible to you.
In the equations, you see up quarks and down quarks.
You don't see protons and neutrons.
But the consequence of the equations is protons and neutrons, right?
So when you look at the equations, you can't tell, is that accessible or inaccessible?
To bring it back to the UFO point, the reason UFOs matter to me is if they're here, then these degrees of freedom are accessible.
And if they're not here, then it's probably like protons being filled with up quarks and down quarks that we can't engineer.
The consequences of quark structure inside of the atom, industrially, are zero.
That means you have to think about both possibilities.
One, that these things are actionable if they're right.
So first of all, Eric can be wrong, and I'm happy to be wrong if I'm wrong.
Or I can be right.
If I'm right, then it splits into a second level of the decision tree.
Maybe the new degrees of freedom are things we can play with at the engineering level, and maybe they're inaccessible just the way we can't play with up quarks and down quarks directly.
If we can play with it, then we've got so many new toys you have no idea.
New forces, new matter, new possibilities to flit in and out between dark and light matter.
Build something based on new plans that did something that nothing else could do.
So to give an example, in the late 50s, we thought we knew electromagnetism cold.
We'd been playing with it since Maxwell's time, right?
Two guys named Aronoff and Bohm said, here's a crazy experiment.
Take a tube that's perfectly insulated almost and run current through it and then pass an electron beam from like a cathode ray tube.
And reflect it off mirrors and see when it comes back and interferes with itself, how it interferes.
If it's perfectly insulated, it shouldn't be able to tell whether there's current running through the center of the solenoid, of that tube.
Turns out when you turn on the tube and you run current through it, the electron beam can detect whether there's current running through it through magic.
Technically, magic here means something called holonomy.
We didn't know that the electromagnetic fields are not where electromagnetism really happens.
It's something called the electromagnetic potential.
It's a precursor that actually determines the universe.
It determines the electromagnetic fields, but this weird thing where somehow the current inside a perfectly insulated tube is influencing the world outside of it was like, holy smokes.
We've been living with this stuff for how long?
We had no idea how it works.
The way you do this is we get together with a bunch of people and we'd say, if Eric is correct or somebody else is correct, and you started to play with this extended model of both general relativity and the standard model, what are some experiments we could run That you think would have no actual content, just the way the Aronoff-Bohm experiment looks like it's not going to do anything.
Or the Casimir effect.
Or finding out that beta decay, radioactive decay, knows it's left from its right.
These are all hugely surprising discoveries.
I don't know how to do that.
And it's one of the reasons I keep talking to Brian Keating, who's an experimentalist, because what you see here in the studio is 100% theorists.
You only invite theorists from physics.
You don't invite experimentalists.
I don't know how to talk to the experimentalists, but that's why I go down to the University of California, San Diego, and play down there, because I want to talk to people who are like, how do we build this?
You're the engineers of physics.
Tell me what I'm saying In terms that we can build something and actually see if it has consequences.
Imagine for example that you look at the equivalence principle, right?
So the equivalence principle says that the inertial mass, how much mass something appears to have when it's moving, how resistant it is to force...
That's the same, according to Einstein, as the gravitational force, right?
The gravitational mass.
So gravitational mass equals inertial mass.
There are like a whole bunch of different flavors of mass that happen to all be equal according to different principles.
According to something called spontaneous symmetry breaking, Mass is generated by the interaction with the Higgs field in general.
It's not a number the way we thought it was coded into an equation.
It's something we would call a vacuum expectation value through a Yukawa coupling.
Never mind.
It's that thing about the molasses causes the mass to feel heavier even though the mass of the cup hasn't changed because it's requiring more and more force to push.
If what we have is a bunch of different kinds of mass, we might be able to break some of these things, like the equivalence principle.
We might be able to generate negative mass, which is not technically excluded, but is incredibly hard to think about.
We might be able to do things...
The only way we keep mass always positive is by putting in artificial conditions.
If you have a bigger theory, you start to realize how you would do these things naturally.
So, for example, we might be able to dial the mass of things differently by actually engineering the thing that we call the Higgs field.
The Higgs field is the only thing that doesn't spin that is fundamental when we spin spacetime.
100% that's a possibility, because right now what we're doing is we're using electromagnetism only.
The only force that we actually have engineering power over is electromagnetism.
Like when we do chemistry, so you fertilize your lawn, you're using electron orbitals based on electromagnetism between the proton and the electron in an atom or molecule.
We don't know how to interfere with the weak force or the gravitational force.
Both of those are so weak that they're impossible.
And the strong force is crazily nuclear and super short range.
So we've got control of one out of four forces.
I can tell you what I believe the additional forces are, but what I need is I need people who are closer to engineering, experiment, and standard theory.
I thought it was a smokescreen that we were using to do aerospace engineering projects.
I thought it was like Operation Fortitude or Operation Bodyguard.
And so it's like, okay, please don't bother me with your sci-fi stories.
It's space opera.
For the same reason that I don't go into a Scientology center and spend all my time thinking about Xenu, I'm not going to spend all my time worried about space opera.
I think Gary told me a story where he's, like, dealing with a subject.
He's a medical guy, and that's how he got involved with this.
And, you know, somehow the medical person that he is is talking to a subject who says, you know, I encountered a spinning disc in the sky or whatever, and a ball of light comes in.
More indirect evidence than you can possibly imagine, with sober normal people claiming things that I can't believe, first-hand stuff.
And then it gets weirder and worse from that.
I would love to keep this just at metallic flying objects.
But like, no, it's always going to be like, no, they go into the water and then, you know, the next level is like cattle mutilation.
It's like, oh, please don't bring in cattle mutilation.
Oh, yeah, the stapes, you know, the smallest bone in the body, the three bones that make mammals mammals, you know, one of them seems to be frequently missing.
And then, like, Paul Hellyer and Chaim Eshed and Ben Rich Then there's this, like, crazy level where the former Canadian defense minister believes that there's a galactic federation, the humans are in contact, and the head of the Israeli...
It's like, enough.
I can't handle it.
I don't know what we're looking at.
And I'd love to keep it at something sober.
And I see zero direct evidence.
And if we're going to go on the direct evidence, Elon is right.
It's bullshit.
Tough luck.
But I don't know how this amount of indirect evidence occurs because I don't think the government is capable of faking this.
On the other hand, If we go by the indirect evidence, how is it that none of us have, like even the center of mass coordinates of this Tic Tac?
You'll never hear me talking about the Tic Tac or the Zimbabwe kids or whatever.
Why?
Because since the mid-70s, we've been able to do CGI in Star Wars that looks much more realistic than any video I've ever seen.
So you can show me any video and I don't care.
It's just not interesting to me.
We don't have center of mass coordinates for this tic-tac that's claimed by the U.S. government over the Nimitz?
You're claiming it's something you can't understand and you have the 3D coordinates and I can't play with it in a model on like Google Earth or SketchUp or something?
And every time I asked her out, she's like, I really want to go out with you, but I really have to wash my hair or I really have to hang out with my family.
Do you think that they don't want to release the information because they're still trying to digest it themselves and they don't want it to get out publicly and get into the hands of China?
Um, one possibility is we did a lot of bad stuff and we cannot get out of the fact that if we release what it is that we actually know and what has been going on, there's going to be a lot of consequence.
And there are three systems that stop the first scene in The Matrix where the agents show up and local law enforcement is like, I think we can handle one little girl.
No, Lieutenant, your men are already dead.
That's a deconfliction situation.
We have three things, I think, called Case Explorer, RIS is safe, and...
Oh, God.
Safety net.
We don't know about these things because this is only for grown-ups in the government.
So they have to, like, file what it is that they're doing and then, oh, we've got an undercover agent who's posing as a Colombian drug lord.
Don't bust him because we have got, like, 10 years invested in this thing.
So I tried to use this system.
I called up, I think, Case Explorer for South Florida and got into a half an hour.
We're having a conversation and we may be stumbling on something the government doesn't want us to know, which is what happened when COVID maybe spilled out.
So this is how they play keep away from the rest of us, where they tell each other what they're doing and the rest of us can't know what's going on.
Now, when you say blue on blue, there's a situation that I want to give a name to because it doesn't have a name, which I'm going to call baby on cobalt and cobalt on baby.
Baby and cobalt are two forms of blue.
Cobalt is government and baby is like civilians, like you and me.
What happens when a civilian stumbles on one of these operations?
They're not allowed to use these systems.
I called up the South Florida, I think, Case Explorer, had a half an hour conversation.
They were telling me all sorts of stuff.
And I said, I'd like to hear about Jeffrey Epstein.
Who's calling?
I'm a private citizen.
This call will be terminated in five seconds.
And then they hung up on me.
So I realized, okay, ordinary human beings cannot use these systems.
I think a lot of what's going on is that we keep tripping over the Government operations in the cobalt sector, but we're baby blue.
And they don't have any system for figuring out how to get rid of a civilian who stumbles on a drug smuggling operation.
Like, okay, so Jeffrey Epstein traffics your daughter.
What do you do?
If he's an intelligence asset, you don't know.
You just want the creep away from your kid.
So you file a complaint or whatever.
Now you've got a situation where they don't know what to do because you've got a civilian and you've got some sort of super secret dark thing that isn't supposed to exist.
My claim is that conspiracy theorist is basically cobalt on baby.
In other words, the government warning a private citizen, get away from that thing.
We will start to destroy your reputation if you do not cease and desist.
But there's no plan.
So if you were the guy who figured out D-Day, you'd say, well, there's a huge increase in the inflatable balloons.
I think that they might be tanks.
There's no troops under that army designation.
You'd be a threat to this incredible operation because you have free speech and nobody knows how to shut you up.
So consider that none of us know the answer to what does the government do When private citizens start to figure out statecraft narratives are bullshit.
So, for example, Jeff Sachs was called in to supervise the investigation into the origin of COVID at The Lancet.
And he puts in place all of the people who were involved with this through Peter Daszak.
He later figures out, oh my god, I just put the foxes in charge of the hen house.
And he blows the whistle.
So what if we have like a, since the 1970s, a 45-year-old workaround of the Biological Weapons Convention In Wuhan, we've created this thing called One Health and the EcoHealth Alliance we took over as a hippie charity.
And if you ever take a look at the board of advisors of EcoHealth Alliance, it's wildly overpowered, including my old mentor, who's the head of the Sloan Foundation and the ex-head of the National Science Foundation.
None of you guys look at the board of directors?
Crazy.
We keep tripping on these official statecraft narratives.
That's why they won't let us question the Zelensky stuff.
They won't let us question the origin of COVID. They won't let us question the vaccines.
They won't let us question whether there are therapeutics.
These are all cobalt on baby things.
It's horse dewormer.
What's wrong with you people?
You're all lunatics.
You're pathological losers.
Okay, I get it.
You're just destroying my Wikipedia entry because I keep asking questions because actually you need To have a timeout.
You're out of control.
I'm fine.
But you're going to turn this into pathologizing.
When you pathologize people who've seen the truth, now you've got a real problem.
You gaslit American citizens because you couldn't do your effing job?
Really?
That's interesting.
Did you kill anyone?
Did you do wet work?
Did you do digital wet work?
What did we just find out from the Twitter files, right?
How many times did I say, I'm being throttled, I'm being manipulated?
The government doesn't want to take responsibility.
We have this – what is it?
GEC that's from the State Department.
We have CISA inside of the Department of Homeland Security.
These people are creating fake conversations on Twitter.
They're creating fake reports about the Hunter Biden laptop to influence the election.
We didn't have a free and fair election.
It had nothing to do with ballot stuffing or miscounting.
So I believe that partially why we're not talking is that we've done so many bad things around UFOs that we don't want to come clean.
Two, imagine that there's one enormous update coming.
Like, your life is partially a lie.
I think many of us have figured out that we originally believed that it was Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone, and now we're not quite so sure.
Right?
I don't know.
Do you know that it was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Certainly the Warren report doesn't hold a lot of water with me anymore.
A lot of us are going to have to deal with the fact that a lot of what we've been taught is crazy, is not crazy.
Like the fact that this virus seems to have come out of a lab where we were trying to figure out how to put a furin cleavage site into a humanized coronavirus.
And we're leaving in place the exact architecture that got us into this meth.
Without hearings?
Without hearings?
There's no way we would do this without hearings.
So what we're seeing is we're seeing an explosion, a collision between social media-empowered humans who are smart, trying to figure out the story, and the government's stonewalling us so that we can't figure out our own lives.
Like, did my children get injected or infected with something that came out of your stupidity because Ralph Baric and Peter Daszak can't do their goddamn jobs?
Maybe.
Are we going to have a tribunal about the fact that you infected planet Earth and you decreased human life expectancy by causing us to fight a different COVID infection every year?
Maybe.
These are hugely consequential issues.
And I believe that UFOs are in part hugely consequential issues for reasons that may have to do with the fact that this is...
Of the fake version?
It's not overlord, it's bodyguard or fortitude-like?
I don't know.
But we've certainly gaslit people.
And I think we're not prepared to take responsibility for ruining the lives of ordinary Americans who were smart and honest because we couldn't do our jobs in the intelligence and defense communities.
You know, the thing people don't understand about mylar balloons is that at night, a mylar balloon is a very confusing object to encounter because all you're seeing is like randomly scattered light.
And it's like, oh my god, you know, this is like the Phoenix Lights.
And I have like video of people in line at a Thai restaurant saying, oh my god, I've never seen anything like this.
Of course, I go across the street to investigate and it says happy birthday.
So there's no question that it's a certain amount of people wanting to see things that aren't there.
But in part, it's like I do this thing where I take license plates and every time I see a license plate with three letters, like NSA or MIT, I take a picture of it.
So I have a huge number of these things because I'm trying to train my brain.
Here is what random noise looks like.
Like in other words, it's not telling you to do something.
If it says BTC, I shouldn't go out and buy a bunch of Bitcoin.
People don't realize that you have to train yourself because you're going to see lots of patterns once you start looking for them.
In finance, I used to build random number generators that had the correlation of the markets and I would generate pictures and the financial professionals would say, oh, we've got to buy.
This is a classic head and shoulders pattern and there's going to break out.
It's like I generated this out of a simulator written in Python.
So people are just...
They want to believe so much that they're going to lie.
At the end of the day, once you've pulled out all the mundane things, the question is, is there a residue left of things that actually are mind-blowing?
I can't tell you until I actually see stuff that somebody's willing to say, we captured this, it looks like this, but I can tell you that I am assured repeatedly by people who seem incredibly sober, who do not seem to be great actors, That they have seen amazing things.
We have data that is as clear as you can imagine.
And we can't release it.
And then you have this question of, is there anyone smart who's trained in this very small number of areas who's looked at this?
Or are you just going to eyeball it and pretend that it violates physical law when you don't even know physical?
You don't know physical law!
So far as I know, Eric W. Davis is the top person who knows what a tensor is on this project.
Are you kidding me?
Try to imagine that you're trying to do the Manhattan Project with the K-pop groups.
If he's telling the truth, if he really was this propulsions expert from Los Alamos labs who they brought in because they were kind of trying to figure out what the fuck is going on, and everything's compartmentalized so no one can talk to anyone, so no real science can be done.
And they're saying, tell me what you know.
Let's figure this out.
And he gets to it, and almost immediately he's like, this is nothing that we know how to do.
This is nothing that we're making.
This is something that's not even designed for a human form.
If it's a physical vehicle, it's designed for something much smaller than humans.
He said it's a stable version of this element and that in wherever these beings are from, they have access to a stable version of this element that we don't have access to here.
So I interview Hal Puthoff, and we're talking about this stuff, and it goes to remote viewing.
I'm like, oh, brother, I have to do remote viewing.
Now, but if you think about it, When you get a FaceTime call from your wife who's traveling on business or something, or you're traveling on business, it doesn't matter, that's remote viewing.
So you don't realize it, but something completely mundane to you, like a video call, It is a version of this insane sounding thing.
I was respectful, but I certainly communicated that for a guy who's trying to prove that this stuff is real, wouldn't you like to invite me to your private island if this stuff works rather than making exactly $26,000 or whatever the target amount was?
That doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't do it.
You know, there could be this thought that...
And this is, you know, what people would say about psychic ability as well.
There could be that thought that some people feel that abusing that power or using the power for personal gain would somehow or another diminish its effectiveness.
He claims that they sent people to the bottom of the sea in submarines who were able to remote view.
And so the water is acting as a screen where light can't get to the bottom of the Marianas Trench, for example.
But neutrinos can.
So if you imagine that there was some particle that could penetrate and be received, we have telescopes for photons, for gravitons, which is LIGO, and for neutrinos, which is like, I don't know, an ice cube or polar bear.
So you could imagine that there's some field that can penetrate the oceans that could be received.
Do you think that it's possible that there are states of consciousness that can be achieved through Some form of meditation or some form of training the mind to get into a very specific focus that would allow you to access information that is otherwise unavailable.
I don't have any experience that.
I haven't done it.
Right?
So I would imagine it can't be done because I can't do it or haven't done it.
But isn't it possible that there are states of mind that can be achieved through whether it's holotropic breathing or whether it's meditation, there's states of mind that are measurably achievable.
That are very different from the current consciousness where two people are just talking.
Is it possible that there's a way that some people have of occasionally tapping in to information that's unavailable to you or are right now?
Again, people think mammals are defined by live birth and breasts and...
No.
It's three bones in the ear, if I'm not mistaken.
And those three bones have to do with insectivore ancestors who probably needed their ears detached from their jaws so they could hear high-pitched whining.
That's a theory.
We don't know if it's true.
Whoa.
Okay?
Now, those three little bones that mean so much, what they do is they transmit sound through the tympanic membrane to the organ of Cordy so that the cilia in this rolled up seashell in your ear vibrate at particular frequencies.
So when I'm talking to you and I say...
Joe, that's absolutely ridiculous.
What I'm doing is I'm stimulating different hair follicles in your organ of Cordy to vibrate at different times.
Or if I go, wise men say, that's tone three halves frequencies above, back to same tone.
Those things are perceived as pitch.
I could imagine something caring about the idea of how do I communicate thoughts through the tympanic membrane using the stapes.
Does it sound exotic?
Yes.
Does it sound like bullshit?
Absolutely.
However, it's not outside of the realm using the doubly scientific method which is You imagine that there's intelligence on the other end of this thing, and it's going to use every trick in the book because it's smarter than we are to figure out how to communicate with us.
But these things have a religious effect on people.
They view them as angels.
They view them as transcendent beings.
They think that Ezekiel, the book of Ezekiel is about this stuff.
It's like, okay, it's only my self-respect.
I'm going to run an experiment because it's cheap.
Why wouldn't I do that?
Why wouldn't I do that heartfelt?
Every Friday, Joe, you should come to our family for Shabbat dinner.
We pray.
We may be atheists, but not on Friday night.
Friday night, we believe, right?
And my claim is that there are plenty of opportunities using the doubly scientific method.
If something is much smarter than us and is able to communicate these things, Maybe it said to Hal, look, we can't interfere with you because we have a prime directive, but we can give you indirect hints.
You know, what do I know?
I don't know anything.
Do I think it's likely?
No.
I think Hal is probably not correct.
Right?
But is it impossible to communicate with somebody below the bottom of the sea?
No, it's not impossible.
Even using neutrinos, it's not impossible.
Is there any mechanism that implements it?
None that I'm aware of.
Do we listen for neutrino events?
100%.
1987A, the supernova, I believe that the photons and the neutrinos were screaming at us and have arrived almost at the same time because the neutrinos we now know have a tiny mass, so they wouldn't be traveling at quite the speed of light.
Now, the point is, let's imagine that we had Neil deGrasse Tyson on.
If you look at, for example, Jeff Beck's version of Drown in My Own Tears with Jules Holland, that is one of the greatest vocal performances I've ever heard.
I cried.
I pulled over to the side of the road and wept when I heard that thing.
Because he died, and I was just like, yeah, whatever.
You ever heard Eva Cassidy get sick and sing Stormy Monday and something about the sickness causes her voice to do something that no voice has ever done?
By the way, I just want to say something that you're not going to want me to say, but fuck you.
I was hanging out with his bass player Tal Wilkenfeld, and she got COVID. And I heard that you sent a nurse with an IV with all of this sort of stuff to get Tal Wilkenfeld, this unbelievable bass player that just...
In terms of vocal performance, I did not understand what this guy was able to do multidimensionally with that whammy bar and using the slide as a plectrum.
This guy was developing techniques not to flash you, not to...
But it was just like, I'm going to spend my entire life not becoming a rock star, but becoming the ultimate technician because of the things I feel in my soul that I want to share with you people.
And I didn't get this.
And the only way I found Tal is that I thought like, okay, I was always thinking I'd get around to Jeff Beck.
And then he died.
I was like, okay, whatever.
I'm too busy.
And I started feeling shitty about it.
I thought, what happened to his bassist?
And I found out she followed me.
And I was completely...
Unprepared for, like, these people who are channeling the universe directly through music.
Like this whole controversy about you and Jews and money, it really hurt me because I've never seen anybody as non-bigoted as you.
And I've hung out with you drunk.
And this stuff would come out.
And it's just like such bullshit.
But I did have this envy, which is I want to be the gays and get you to work up actually what's going on with Jews and money and take the William Tell shot and Where you get past this sort of dime store stupid shit and actually, like, basically the thing about Jews and money is the Jews that had money survived.
And the Jews that didn't have money died in the camps.
And every diaspora community, whether it's the overseas Chinese, or you have the Parsis in India, or you have the Gujaratis in the east of Africa...
The issue isn't money, Joe.
It's liquidity.
All of us diaspora communities have to have liquidity or when things turn bad, we get screwed.
Right?
And there is some routine.
What I found about you and the gays and professional wrestling thing, just for people who don't know, I was sitting there at the comedy store and Joe says, I was watching professional wrestling and it is so gay.
He just turned all the negative energy in the room on us for our latent homophobia?
And then it was like...
We all had it.
And then we realized we had it.
And then, if I was sitting next to a gay guy and I started the evening homophobic, I guarantee you by the end of that act, which you figured out over multiple times that I saw, We were sitting there ready to hug each other.
And I get this call from Kanye the next day, because I'm not I'm just thinking I'm going to be killed in a drive-by shooting because I can't get home to my wife because I'm hanging out with Kanye.
I was just at TMZ and I was explaining the theory about slavery and how this whole thing works and Jews and Passover and I was explaining how much I love Hitler.
What did you say?
I was explaining how much I love Hitler.
Huh?
I missed a meeting?
A memo?
Something?
And I realize, okay, Kanye is focused on this spiritual Sunday thing.
And I realize what this is.
It's Jesus.
Jesus loves everybody.
No matter how horrible you are, Jesus loves you.
Okay?
And Kanye is thinking, what would Jesus do?
And I'm realizing, like, I'm thinking at top speed.
Like, he's talking about Hitler at TMZ, whatever.
I said, Kanye, I want you to listen to me.
He's like, yeah?
I said, I want you to run to TMZ. They don't want to destroy you.
I guarantee it.
Because you're a long-term property that matters.
And there's no reason that they would want to destroy you.
And I want you to beg them not to release what you said.
Don't question me.
Just do it.
He runs to TMZ, and they don't release this thing, and I guarantee you that they have the videotape.
So, when you hear that the Jews, and I love Dave Chappelle, but this thing he did on Saturday Night Live was not right.
Okay?
Yes, Jews are so fucking traumatized That we are super sensitive to anything that makes it possible for people to tell jokes.
I view you guys as the marksmen You're the surgeons.
You're the fucking neurosurgeons who can get between two neurons and cut the bad one and leave the good one.
That is, to me, I know that you guys think it's about mockery, it's about having fun, blah, blah, blah.
I've been through the comedy mill.
There is an aspect to Carlin's comedy, for example, or Richard Pryor's or Lenny Bruce's that is timeless and immortal because comedy is so much more than getting a belly laugh.
It's at a different level.
I expect you guys to work – to keep – I want you to keep workshopping that thing until it finds its actual highest level.
I'll tell you the joke about pizza's money in Jews, right?
I used to go to the Harvard School in Los Angeles, which was the top, most exclusive Episcopalian school in L.A., And I was sandwiched between these two beautiful, muscular Aryan men, and they would make the following joke.
Hey, Eric, what's the difference between pizzas and juice?
A pizza doesn't scream when you put it in an oven, right?
I'll tell you what the Jewish strategy straight up is.
We over-contribute.
We over-succeed.
We over-contribute.
You wanna know who built America as a superpower?
It's Edward Teller, it's Stanislav Ulam, it's Robert Oppenheimer.
When you allow Jews into your country, we pay more taxes, we do more philanthropy, we make tons of fucking money, we do some criminal shit that's stupid, we've exploited people, which is unfair.
It's a complicated equation, but that's our equation for survival.
On balance, we over-contribute, over-succeed, and we love you.
We want to be strong.
We're loyal.
And right now, people are scared that there's something that is denaturing our entire society, Joe.
We're not ourselves.
We're not strong.
We're not confident.
We can't be masculine.
We can't have children.
We're tiptoeing around trans.
And the suspicion for who is keeping us from having a normal interaction is always going to be Jews.
You want to know why I'm all over the Epstein thing?
Because maybe it is Israel.
And if it is Israel, it's not Israel.
It's like a tiny department inside of the Mossad.
And maybe it's our own intelligence services, but I'll be goddamned if it isn't a Jew who isn't going to be pushing this.
Now, I've been invited to South America, for example, by a very prominent dual national between the United States and Israel.
It's like, why don't you come down to my ranch, Eric, where we have fun with Sindera Luminoso, like the Shining Path.
It's like, what does that mean?
I'm being intimidated, Joe.
I'm being threatened.
Because obviously Jeffrey Epstein looks a lot like Ellie Cohen, the super spy of Israel who held orgies in his Damascus apartment, right?
Now, I don't know.
Jeffrey Epstein may be a U.S. intelligence product.
It may be a joint product.
It may be an Israeli product.
I don't know.
But I can tell you this.
It's not the Jews who are behind Jeffrey Epstein.
And I will be goddamned if I won't be pushing that because I'm going to stand up for 12-year-old girls, whoever they are.
This is an immoral human being.
I've been on this since the beginning.
It's not fair.
So we do do this thing where in some sense you have to understand how traumatized we are as a people.
When I hear we aren't oppressed because we drive fancy cars, it's like my first cousin once removed died on the train out of Kiev when the Germans invade, froze to death.
My cousin is a Mengele twin who forgave Mengele, which is what Kanye was trying to do.
He was trying to say, I'm Jesus.
I can tell that Hitler deserved love and deserved admiration.
And it's like, well, look up Eva Kor, right?
You have this tiny, tiny Jewish person, who's my cousin, who forgave Mengele.
If there's anybody worse than Hitler, it might be Mengele, right?
But Kanye was in the wrong scene.
He wasn't equal to the thing he was taking on.
It wasn't his to forgive Hitler and to celebrate Hitler.
He's not Jesus.
But I feel terrible about what happened to Kanye.
And I'll tell you one of the reasons I feel terrible about it.
Because all of us were enjoying Kanye's mental illness.
His genius comes straight out of his mental illness.
And we loved him because he was so unfiltered, so real.
So when I see Rihanna holding him up, my feeling is, no, it's not for you to hold him up.
I tried to save Kanye.
I didn't even say anything about it.
Right?
And Kanye, I think, turned on me.
He stopped returning my phone calls because he felt manipulated.
But the fact of the matter was I wanted Kanye to persist and I didn't want his comment about I love Hitler and TMZ to take him out because I thought he was a force for good.
So, yes, there may be Jews that are exploiting him financially, but there are also Jews who are trying to save him, as I believe Lex tried to do a million times.
And it's like...
Hey, we love each other.
Ultimately, we're all family.
And the thing that I want out of humor is I want our best comedians to be a level or two above where they already are.
So that was my complaint about Dave Chappelle.
It wasn't that Dave Chappelle wasn't funny.
He's funny as hell.
It's like I thought beyond that.
You should have done a routine that brought us all 100% together.
And what you did was that you did a routine because you tried to get it at this level.
My opinion of Dave Chappelle is that he's way up here.
But while you're doing that, you're trying to find the beats.
It's a rare art form where you're practicing it in front of people.
And the difference between a monologue, which Dave has to prepare for in a very short amount of time, versus a set.
Like, if you want him to have a very complex and nuanced take on a subject, it's going to take time.
It'll take a little time to figure out.
And, I mean, I can only speak for myself, but my process is months.
I have some bits, and then they start off great, and then they die, and then they come back, and then they fucking get better.
And some bits, I have to abandon them.
They're just not working.
They're not growing.
Whatever it is.
And you don't know until you try it in front of an audience.
And I try it a bunch of different ways.
And sometimes I try, and I'm like, oh my god, what the fuck have I got myself into?
And I have to pull myself out of the bush.
But it's because there's this experimental aspect to doing live stand-up in front of these crowds.
And after a while, I've been listening to us talk on podcasts, a lot of fans now know.
Most people don't, though.
Most people have no idea what's going on, which is good, because you just want them to have fun.
But there's a thing going on where you're trying to sculpt it.
If he wanted to take that subject and advance it to this Dave Chappelle, you know, coral belt and jujitsu level, because that's what he is, he would figure out a way to do it.
And he would have it in a way that wouldn't be objectionable to you.
I didn't find it objectionable.
I thought it was a hilarious take on something that was current.
It was in the news.
It was a thing.
He was just mocking the fact that Kanye was being attacked.
And my response to this, and this is what I say to my fellow Jews, I say, look...
I don't want more.
I don't want less Joe Rogan or less Dave Chappelle.
I trust these people.
I want more.
I want to go to the uncomfortable place so that we can all actually open it up.
Just like if you were doing MDMA-assisted therapy, right?
The idea is if you don't actually touch the thing that's uncomfortable, which is like, why aren't you so fucking successful?
Why don't they have so much money?
Why are they in control of this stuff?
It's like, I want to go through that.
And I trust you guys, both of you.
And there are probably a few other people that I trust to do it, but it's not many.
And the point being, which is that when other people were like quick to say, you know, this is anti-Semitic, this is uncomfortable, this is this, I had a different response, which is, and I think you're teaching me, it's not the monologue that you want, you want the routine that is workshopped and perfected.
Maybe I didn't have that, but I would say the following.
I believe that ultimately – and I don't want to make it the job of the community but ultimately that is what it is, is teach us how to live with each other and love each other when we have these deep suspicions of each other, right?
Because we do have these deep suspicions.
And right now, everything that our government is doing, which is holding back more and more and more information, makes us suspicious.
Who's really behind this one?
What's really going on, right?
And this is a recipe for another Holocaust.
Because if you're asking, well, who's really behind this?
I guarantee you one of the answers is always, it's those guys.
We are counting on you.
And I just want you to know that and how much love we have.
And it's not an obligation to stand up for you when you come under fire.
The whole N-word thing.
It's like I posted one picture with my arm around you.
Like, any questions?
You know.
You guys are essential.
It's not just that it's fun to go out and have it.
Because it is fun.
But the point is...
Jon Stewart was doing a real job reporting the news when nobody could report the news.
And in a large measure, comedy or MDMA, something like that, is necessary for us to examine our bullshit.
And it's not a task for you because if I say that to you, you're like, dude, you're loading too much onto it.
Yeah, I don't understand a lot of anti-Semitism and I don't understand a lot of racism.
I don't understand it.
It doesn't make sense to me.
Because it's not natural to you.
It's also there's too many fascinating people from all walks of life.
The idea that you would categorize people by what geography they're from or what color their skin is...
That to me seems so ridiculous and so stupid that I don't entertain it.
It's not a thing that bounces around my head.
So even to workshop it and defend it, to me it's like, oh my god, there's so many more interesting things about people.
What's interesting to me about people What is the individual human beings take and the accumulation of all of our takes together when we try to work through this thing?
What is this thing that we're experiencing together?
What is this?
What is culture?
What is the learned history of all the human beings that have ever lived before us?
Like what is the purpose of our existence here?
What is the actual Size of the cosmos that we're existing in like all these different things.
It's finite nature of our existence.
What is good about community and love and friendship?
What is good about all those things?
All those things are interesting to me.
But when it gets to like sexual orientation or color, it's like who cares?
My point was I've never seen Any bigotry at all because of this radical love.
Sorry for saying it, but, like, I know that you love all walks of life.
And you don't need anyone to say that.
So I was almost embarrassed to say it.
But, like, to me...
We're in an emergency situation.
Whether you can feel it or not, like if you look at, there's a guy named, what is it?
Oh, he's figured out Leather Apron Club, which is both the name for the Junto that Benjamin Franklin established, which is something that we revere, and Leather Apron was the name for Jack the Ripper, so it's very clever, Martin Bailey, right?
But he tracks, like, how many Jewish people does Joe Rogan have on his program, you know?
And...
It's incredibly important that all of us who are in a position to do this, who don't have to necessarily worry about, like, our next paycheck at a company, help everyone come together.
Because right now our government isn't helping us come together.
We're all sort of vaguely suspicious of each other.
And nobody wants the assignment, in my opinion, Of like doing work?
To be distracted by our differences is so foolish.
It's just so unnecessary.
Like our differences are what empowers us because if it wasn't for all the different cultures that exist in the United States, it's one of the reasons why it's so fascinating here is because this is a country of immigrants.
You know, with me, it's my grandparents.
And, you know, with other people, they're direct descendants or they've come over here from somewhere else.
And so partially what you and I are both animated by, which is like, look, we're not even done with the work.
But look how far we've come and look at what a shining example this is to everyone else.
And this is like...
I wish I could communicate, Joe, how much fear I have right now as a Jewish person on Twitter with the well of hatred that I feel coming up, which has been suppressed.
And you want to know what I want?
I want the anti-Semites to speak up.
I want to hear them.
I want them to have free speech.
You have two choices in a society like this.
You can either try to control what people think and what they say, or you can have a cultural penalty for saying something that is horrible.
And I want us to have free speech with a cultural penalty for these things as opposed to having to regulate what you can and cannot say.
And this issue like – I don't know.
Is it Daryl Davies?
Like these incredibly commendable, courageous people who wade right into the belly of the beast and bring love.
You know, this was the thing that I wanted for Kanye.
He was trying to say something else.
I don't want him destroyed.
I don't want him to continue to destroy himself where he's hanging out with Milo and Nick Fuentes and all this nonsense.
He was trying to say, Jesus told us to love each other, right?
And if we take it to the thing that you were talking about in the beginning with the fear of what's going on right now with Russia and Ukraine.
In the absence of this idea that we're supposed to be opposed to other people, people that we don't even fucking know, why would there be any conflict at all between Russia and Ukraine?
Why would there be any conflict at all between us and them?
And this is the thing which I didn't understand with Sam.
It's like he says, there's nothing you can tell me about Hunter Biden.
It's like, Burisma?
There is money that flows through Ukraine because it is a place where there are chemical labs and biological labs and there's bakshish and payment and all this kind of stuff.
You're going to potentially create a nuclear holocaust over something where you're getting paid in a way that I'm not.
And if we don't fundamentally figure out how to love each other and to coexist and to celebrate each other, and this is another thing about, like, I'll tell you a Jewish thing.
We have this one story we repeat every year in the Passover story, which is our name for Egypt is Mitzrayim.
And Mitzrayim means the narrow places, and it's literally like the birth canal.
It's the second birth of the Jewish people.
And right now, all of earth is Mitzrayim.
This is the womb.
And you say like, you know, somebody, not you, but like somebody says, well, the Jews consider themselves the chosen people.
Do you know why we're chosen?
We view ourselves as chosen, not because like we're the best, because we're responsible.
We believe that we are responsible for this planet.
And we unleashed, we Jews, Edward Teller and Stanislav Ulam, both Jews, unleashed the power of the sun on the planet, which is dooming us to a very bad end.
And I believe that we are chosen in the sense that it is our responsibility, not our privilege, not our this, not our that, not that we're on top, but it's our responsibility to shepherd the birth of the human race into an interstellar species.
And, like, does that sound far-reaching?
Does that sound crazy?
100% to my ears, that sounds nuts.
But ultimately...
In my opinion, we feel responsible, not for ourselves, not to save ourselves, but for the entire planet.
And I hope that other cultures feel the same responsibility and that they feel chosen in the same way.
But right now, if you want to ask me, I forgo all sorts of financial opportunity because I feel like we unleashed holy hell on Earth that may be a civilization-ending thing.
And what are we going to do about it?
If we are open, we have to realize that what we unleashed to take care of Hitler and Nazism and the barbarity of Japan, like the rape of Nanking, we now have to deal with for all time.
And this is like really important to us.
We need to shepherd civilization to safety.
And if you think about the Passover story, It's a tremendous question.
Why repeat this one story that seems bizarre?
Like you're enslaved in Egypt, you follow some crazy leader, you go through the Red Sea, you wander around the desert for 40 years, and you find the Promised Land.
This is the story of where we are exactly at this minute.
It's not...
Like an old-fashioned, stupid fairy tale.
It's like you've been telling this story every year for a reason because the people who waited for the bread to rise, that's why we eat unleavened bread, died.
And the people who understood early, okay, this sounds completely crazy, but you're going to have to make a break for it through the Red Sea, wander around in pain before you actually get to safety.
That is the story of right now.
And to bring it back to the UFOs, My feeling about this is I'm largely on this program right now, not to promote a book.
I don't have a Patreon yet.
Maybe one day.
Who knows?
There's nothing I'm promoting other than the fact that right now we are in so much mortal danger as a human species.
Think about everything that you love, whether it's Drown in My Own Tears or Box B Minor Mass or the works of Shakespeare.
It's like, no, I know what time it is and I love you and I love all you people.
We're getting out of here and we're going to do it and we're not going to embrace any of this kind of stupid division.
It's now time.
It's like, this is Shackleton's story.
Shackleton stepped up when any normal human being would say, look, take whatever resources you have and have a good time because you're done.
It's like, no.
We're down.
It's the ninth inning.
This is a bad situation.
This is the time that legends are made and we're sitting around worried about like, can I get the Tesla with gull-wing doors?
It's like, fuck that shit.
Now is the time for legends.
And whether you know that this is the time or not, we have to come together.
And that's one of the reasons that like...
I wanted you to understand how much I appreciated what you've done for underprivileged groups, people who are hurting.
People don't really understand how big your heart is because you hide it.
And that's one of the things I wanted for the Jewish people and I wanted from you, which is like more Chappelle, more Joe Rogan, more humor, more love.